"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d077f6dbbdb848ed8ed4a265ca7b456b\u0022\u003ETuesday, 13 December 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223719c048ecc649a7aa322c7f681e74f5\u0022\u003ETuesday, 13 December 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed70fba3ff77467babb4fe49ebf20a40\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002240f9b8de9aca4e5e933a2e629ad3d900\u0022\u003EParty Votes\u2014Proxy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00225a85438f0e8b4587b969bc89885d1a7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a85438f0e8b4587b969bc89885d1a7c\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In view of the disruption to air travel, I seek leave that all members be deemed to be present within the parliamentary precincts for the purposes of party voting, until the House rises this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf43b5896a0e4c52b399a9b5ef5a6ad7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c8f978e58af4701b2a093ebd11ee8e9\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225cb1a99fbea0478886b93852d0596fe1\u0022\u003EMost Reverend Max T\u0101kuira M\u0101riu\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u002274faa2f46d74469cbae3a896f16e1227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274faa2f46d74469cbae3a896f16e1227\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That this House express its deep sadness on the death of the Most Reverend Max T\u0101kuira M\u0101riu, the first M\u0101ori Catholic Bishop. I express our sincere condolences to te H\u0101hi Katorika ki Aotearoa and to the Mariu whanau and to all those who are feeling a profound sense of loss and sorrow at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00221a13aeed18de45788141ff4bcf538f4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a13aeed18de45788141ff4bcf538f4c\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E E tautokotia ake an\u014D te t\u016B o te whaea Tariana Turia m\u014D te t\u016B mokemoke o te koroua r\u0101 te p\u012Bhopa. Tangi hoki te ng\u0101kau o t\u0101tou katoa mai i te motu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EAgain I endorse Tariana Turia rising for the forlorn figure of the bishop, that elder. All of us in the House, and indeed throughout the land, grieve too.]   \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00221e351c3071ab434b8e30d8cd94748236\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e351c3071ab434b8e30d8cd94748236\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the National Party I would like to register this party\u2019s grief at the passing of Bishop Max T\u0101kuira M\u0101riu and say only that during his time in the priesthood and certainly in his time as bishop he worked hard, not just in the service of the Catholic Church but indeed in the service of all New Zealand and New Zealanders. As a relative of his, I am very pleased to be able to add my comments to those that have been made already and I am very grateful that the House reserves this time to pay him the tribute that he deserves. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2eab2075bb34f2abeb270643638cf1e\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b08da5ee909d40d7b6ed1b8eac813379\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002238cce0efe22f4b33bcd48bb833591f0b\u0022\u003EMinisters\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc4c721e6e9b44c1beff2806338303e7\u0022\u003E1. Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in all her Ministers; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002213e5a7a499594f88a9a42634919c55c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213e5a7a499594f88a9a42634919c55c4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af39924efddc49f5ba9e625c147fccfb\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Is she satisfied that Mr Benson-Pope has not misled the House, the media, or the public by releasing the highly selective analysis of his police file, and refusing to reconcile conflicting statements about it; if so, is she concerned that public opinion and newspaper editorials continue to call for his resignation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022056d60f91f864124a6b74cf4dcbc2ee4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That question raises issues that have already been dealt with in the House. The Government, of course, considers very carefully newspaper editorials, but does not always follow them slavishly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c4c1dae6f7a4cd3a7d5861998f69ec3\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she continued to have confidence in her Minister of Education, Steve Maharey, given numerous claims from New Zealand Qualifications Authority markers that they are being forced secretly to re-mark National Certificate of Educational Achievement exams, and push students up to pass grades, in order to come up with results that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority finds politically palatable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a2415e6252f46de974b8c0892229c51\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Because the processes being followed are the standard processes outlined, including check marking, and no amount of repetition of a small number of complaints from Mr English will change the facts of the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222408d2ac7cae49779ffb460b034a9ef2\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Winston Peters, who, first, called the New Zealand Herald \u201Ctreasonous\u201D for daring to disagree with him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b909183bcd4636a5c90a6794c0ffe1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Who called out, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5c6718dcf594e71b731f7e562e3b173\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I did not say anything other than that they were telling straight, bare lies, as they did again in this morning\u2019s paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211df58fdf5fb4d23841bed0a1512f12a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry but that is not a point of order. I will remind members once in this sitting, and for the last time, because more than one voice called out then, that when members are asking questions or raising points of order, they are to be heard in silence. That is the final warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a1d0659e104f8a94c17d6b7641074c\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Winston Peters, who first called the New Zealand Herald \u201Ctreasonous\u201D for daring to disagree with him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc5d2efcbec04eeab6779fbed5088299\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Could you remind the member that the honourable member\u2019s title is the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and that he should be addressed appropriately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229ac699897e848cdb009ad9fe43192f2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243aeb7a0e14143e283b416c3516ba755\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister have confidence in the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, who first called the New Zealand Herald \u201Ctreasonous\u201D for daring to disagree with him, and then, after quite specifically being told by the Prime Minister to get over it, continued to attack the New Zealand Herald\u2019s political editor, stating that her comments in an article were \u201Cbaseless, false, and without any merit whatsoever\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8fc83bf2ebc4131ac30490539166070\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Because if Ministers or, indeed, members were to have to resign because they described some comments in some media as baseless and false, not many of us would last more than about a day or two in this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a6a6c8e57e4e37b3163c942d5bb514\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Prime Minister have confidence in her Minister of Health, the Hon Pete Hodgson, who has demonstrated to this House several times in the past month that he does not have a grasp on the major public health issue, which is the looming avian flu epidemic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae37881f9d64b809a58eae057371171\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member must have an extraordinarily excellent crystal ball if he knows what nobody else does, which is that we are actually going to have a flu pandemic. Possibly the Exclusive Brethren included it with his special issue of their election propaganda. However, unlike members opposite, the Minister of Health has not made the mistake of thinking Tamiflu is a vaccine that will prevent the avian flu from occurring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b11496e6806941fba9aca46b7fbe620c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think it is reasonable to express a significant degree of frustration at a columnist who claimed that there was virtually a bilateral meeting with Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, when it did not happen\u2014and four witnesses told her it did not\u2014and then, just yesterday, described a meeting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fbec2690955464f86ce2629caabaa3c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef140cc2b3f5414eb852d4a0304fa8c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down, sunshine\u2014I am talking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022270ae8b472784c6d9a7e2aa00cf9cf10\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would both members please sit down. The matter raised by the member in his supplementary question was out of order. The question must relate to the primary question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e67dbb427b7844c28295867fcac827b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the primary question of confidence in one\u2019s Ministers, does the Prime Minister regard it is a matter of significant frustration when a journalist knowingly reports information that did not happen, claiming it to be information because she is some sort of expert; describes a meeting that did not take place as being virtually an attempt to persuade some country on a trade issue; then states in yesterday\u2019s paper that two things happened: first, an attempt to diffuse tensions, which did not happen at all, and, second, that I described myself as the \u201Cnew boy on the block\u201D, which I demonstrably, palpably, am not, as she would know if she looked at the Foreign Minister of Japan? It is that sort of nonsense that causes me to ask why she bothers to report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d7e31644524c31b9916d53df77c803\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Although I accept that the member might look like the new boy on the block, in fact he is almost the same age as I am and certainly is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db25531869bf4b41b3562f5e8c2aee27\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister continue to have confidence in the Minister of Finance, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, whose big-spending Budgets have, according to the OECD, Treasury, and the Reserve Bank, helped to push up inflation in the economy, thereby contributing to nine successive interest rate increases since the beginning of last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c683ebdcb82a43bba84d4060a6dd5137\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member reads Reserve Bank publications as carelessly as he has, obviously, read the latest one, I hate to think how carelessly he wrote the ones he was responsible for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225782145b90d9466e886117d473077bd0\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the latest Monetary Policy Statement from the Reserve Bank, which highlights the nine successive increases in interest rates that have occurred since the beginning of last year, which have taken the official cash rate to its highest level on record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364bef9b9de94af49639a52eca0494f4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230a1e22b902c4482b401062fc4cf551c\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2014Acting Chief Executive\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c944f11d2b584dab954dfb51add3dbd0\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Labour\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he have confidence in the acting chief executive of NZQA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022712f534124b44382a0da3d1ea9c8eacd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022712f534124b44382a0da3d1ea9c8eacd\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Karen Sewell was seconded to the organisation for the express purpose of ensuring that we have an open and a transparent exam process that New Zealanders can have confidence in. She has openly requested that any marker who has any concerns phone her directly, so that issues can be fixed if they exist. Ms Sewell has more than 30 years\u2019 experience in education and is widely respected. She has been a secondary school teacher, a principal, the president of the Auckland Secondary Schools Association, and the chairperson of the Principals Council, and she was appointed as chief executive of the Education Review Office in 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227919c8a66b945469668c87923f5f442\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister received about the level of openness and transparency in National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) exams?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283663a22cf55409a9e9b90107cc8982c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear from the volume and nature of the information that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is releasing that it is running an open and a transparent process. That is in contrast to what amounts to three anonymous people emailing the Opposition spokesperson, whose open hostility to the NCEA makes it difficult to believe that he is doing anything other than seeking to destroy the assessment system. Karen Sewell has openly requested that any marker who has any concerns should phone her directly, so that issues can be fixed\u2014if they exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022645ee4a544b44be595c5ac121cf09949\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House why any marker would come forward, when the Post Primary Teachers Association has circularised all its members and told them that if they break the confidentiality agreement they have with the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, they may not be paid for the work they have done and the authority could sue them for damages; and is he aware that the markers consider there is presumably\u2014and I will quote from an email\u2014\u201Cnothing to be gained by approaching Ms Sewell\u201D, because \u201Cshe must know about the sheer scale of re-marking\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4fa4bec8d048cf8ea696ee66a05ba3\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think that markers understand that Karen Sewell has repeatedly and publicly said that they can approach her. That is the right thing to do; that is the channel that is available. She has said that she will fix any problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9aca0c03f2c4252a1793dfb7e8ef3bd\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen about the views of markers on the exam process this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7ce00485075417e8e341b314501108f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard one report from Radio New Zealand\u2019s education correspondent, Gail Woods, who said that she has spoken to markers who view the system quite differently from the two or three anonymous people who have sent emails to Bill English. She says: \u201C They said it\u2019s a quite straightforward process, because they say that this year\u2019s system of re-checking is a very good approach.\u201D Someone described it to me as an unbelievably good system, and they have also made the point that marking schedules have always been subject to change under School Certificate, particularly in the days when that examination was not scaled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206c4206004b84855958015f3a38ed781\u0022\u003EInflation\u2014Wage Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E3. Hon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a5108678114b69b2c05cbd352f23d0\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he consider that wage growth over and above growth in labour productivity has been a key driver of inflation; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002216976daacab541a09d94e2da675cd423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216976daacab541a09d94e2da675cd423\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E No, I agree with the Governor of the Reserve Bank, who stated last week that \u201Cthe main driver of the strong demand is household spending linked to a still buoyant housing market.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297263e416fb947688b42047cf4b75161\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned at all that the latest figures from Statistics New Zealand show that core central government wage and salary rates, excluding those of teachers and nurses, rose by 1.8 percent in the September quarter\u2014the highest quarterly rise since the labour cost index was begun?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2a95a7677c4498bbe231655eed9936f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, the Government will keep a close eye on movements in public sector wages. It is hard to argue that the movement in public sector wages in that quarter is the cause of an inflationary pressure that has been developing for some time, particularly given the previous comments of the member\u2019s leader in quoting Milton Friedman that inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240aff32e17fd46819d8ead774373e03e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister at all concerned that in the light of the biggest ever quarterly increase in central government wage and salary rates, the same index shows that the increase in private sector wage and salary rates is less than half of the increase in the Government rates; and can he explain why New Zealanders should think they are getting value for money when Treasury has told him there is no indication of better services or better results from the big increase in expenditure on Government services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bfe922fff2b4ccfaf58ecad4b38a241\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the last part is a highly contestable conclusion, given the large increase in the number of surgical procedures that have been carried out, and the increased number of staff in areas such as corrections, police, and so on. Private sector and public sector wages do not always move exactly in harmony over the short term. But I contest the original claim by the member, which sounds as if it came from one of his secret National Certificate of Educational Achievement markers. If he thinks that a 1.8 percent movement in a quarter is higher than public sector wage rate movements either in the early 1970s or from about 1984 to 1985, he has a very short memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce153ac319ae4851bba45e03e8cba777\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Council of Trade Unions\u2019 secret post-election briefing, which states: \u201CWe have been concerned that many workers now believe that the fiscal surplus is larger than it needs to be and this has given impetus to the case for tax cuts.\u201D, or does he consider that that is just another ideological burp?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022766e6bd564d84887be613221225c19f8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I thought that was an extraordinarily well-digested comment, because the Council of Trade Unions was saying that thanks to the propaganda put out by both the National Party and the Exclusive Brethren on its behalf, people have come to misunderstand what the operating surplus is. Of course, one cannot have it both ways. One cannot say that the Government has a large operating surplus and, at the same time, say that it has been spending far too much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f7ab24918444a9e85e426d81f76ab6e\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider the interest write-off for student loan borrowers will be inflationary; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cbad82d19f14a049316014d3a7e4da3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not consider it is likely to be inflationary, given the relatively small impact overall within the economy. It is much less so, for example, than if the Minister of Transport was to reply \u201CYes\u201D to question No. 8, then in the short term push a huge amount of extra money into the National Land Transport Fund\u2014as the National Party is asking for today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f1a170108c4b049bd8661d642b8b57\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with this statement from the same briefing made to him by the Council of Trade Unions: \u201CWe also believe that it makes sense to bring forward the first inflation adjustment to tax brackets from 2008 to 2006.\u201D, and does this statement confirm he is coming under pressure even from his own party to make tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288000870972a482f8d67b3b4b2017ee9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to disappoint the member, but the Council of Trade Unions is not a member of, nor affiliated to, the Labour Party. But I have to say that, after all this time since May, it is nice to find somebody who liked the indexation proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e3a74a39b914e0d96b81035fa35c257\u0022\u003ETelevision New Zealand\u2014Charter\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b698c8d789c41ed9e0c034d4a15e8da\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Broadcasting: Is he satisfied with the way TVNZ is giving effect to its charter; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d460d2efd2564860a061e09b7a816d26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d460d2efd2564860a061e09b7a816d26\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Broadcasting):\u003C/span\u003E I am satisfied that TVNZ is making progress in the transition towards the charter. It has made reasonable steps over the last 2\u00BD years in that direction. That is not much longer than the average time it takes to go from an idea, to putting that idea to screen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227390bbcaf5934c899232f8cd65b6e6b8\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: When did he see or become aware of the memorandum from the former chief executive of TVNZ Ian Fraser to the October 2005 TVNZ board, and does he agree with Mr Fraser\u2019s assessment that TVNZ has become virtually indistinguishable from other commercial channels, that it carries levels of advertising that are higher than any other public service broadcaster in the world, and that its current programming is \u201Cprofoundly incompatible with any recognisable model of public broadcasting\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffa0e736731e4170ba177276204b6a5d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I have not read the paper, because its contents in full are something I have been made aware of only today, and I will try to have a proper read of it when I have time. The board, of course, was the recipient of that paper. I understand that it was prepared for board members during one of their planning sessions as something from the chief executive for them to think about. I am aware that the advertising levels are higher than any other public service broadcaster, and that is no surprise; TVNZ has to earn more commercial revenue than any other public broadcaster. I am aware that there is a need for changes in the programming. That is what a transition is about. It has been going for 2 years and, I think, as we move forward, we will see more changes. [Interruption] Eight years is short to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8901cf07d02414395d8b0f88faff759\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give examples of how TVNZ is making the transition to a charter organisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022697fa46a35144627857bfc9da83e3300\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I will give three broad examples. Television New Zealand has implemented a number of charter-focused activities like the Talk Television programme, where TVNZ moves around the country and talks directly to communities, works with independent production associations to ensure they have a better relationship with the producers of programmes, and it has had more Pacific Island programming on its channels. Secondly, we might look at the area of the quality and variety of New Zealand programmes: programmes like Frontier of Dreams, Holly\u2019s Heroes, Artsville, and Revealing Gallipoli\u2014all very good programmes; and, thirdly, we might look at the area of continuing purchase of the range of the best overseas programmes that come from companies like Warners and Granada.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271bc29002ee6405691de9640e5eaa195\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister have any confidence in TVNZ\u2019s charter performance when departing chief executive, Ian Fraser, was moved to write in his memo in October this year that: \u201CWe have not yet measured any significant increase in viewer satisfaction, nor any marked public conviction, after more than 2\u00BD years\u2019 experience with the charter, that we are more of a public broadcaster than we were before it was introduced.\u201D; and when will the Minister admit that his current public broadcasting model is doomed to failure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c095b258baff46fd906cf8847d5048c0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, I have not read the paper yet, so I cannot comment on what Mr Fraser may or may not have said. But I will go back to my first answer to the first question. This is an organisation that has to carry quite a large commercial burden compared with other public broadcasters around the world. It is in a period of transition. That will take some time, given the amount of money that goes into the public part of the organisation, but the transition is working well and I hope it will continue that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b68f5165be0043e8ada939b9adec0b54\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: E tika ana te k\u014Drero kei Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101h\u014D te p\u016Btea hei utu i ng\u0101 kaupapa whakap\u0101ho M\u0101ori i Te Reo T\u0101taki, \u0101, k\u0101hore Te Reo T\u0101taki e rarau ake i t\u014Dna ake p\u016Btea?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIs it true that Television New Zealand relies on Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho funding to resource its M\u0101ori programming, rather than accessing its own budget?] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u00A0\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2935fcd1d50462b8adb122699d12af5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: For M\u0101ori broadcasters, I would imagine the question was referring to. The answer therefore is yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2322e5c6e84f8ca189188838df0226\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. By way of assistance to our interpreter, if I could give our translation of the supplementary question: is it true that Television New Zealand relies on Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho for funding to resource its M\u0101ori programming, rather than accessing its own budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d977578cf81d4735b63fed735c9ef0e2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So that is a supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9495ccd41f141ef86190b8547ac46a0\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: That was Mr Harawira\u2019s question, which the interpretation did not really get to the gist of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f26ed47d38d47c494144c3f06ec7f4d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will let it go this time but would the member please intervene at the appropriate time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230940de868df40fb8336088b9a9f3f9f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229251da2e4b73461d87a8c85cd4e2be3b\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: How can he seriously claim that a channel where advertising uses up a quarter of every hour and breaks up its programmes every 6 to 8 minutes, where local content will next year shrink to 36 percent, the same level it was at before the charter was introduced, and where charter programmes that do not maximise ratings are to be scrapped, or scheduled at odd hours, is in any way a success story or meeting charter objectives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284657ce278504cdda48b6a5e6460c901\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Until the Minister of Finance decides to give me a bucket of more money to put into public television, there will be advertisements on the public broadcaster. The prediction of 36 percent of broadcasting, of course, is not something that has yet been put in place. For example, last year with the windfall money that it received back, the $11.4 million, it has commissioned a wide range of New Zealand programmes that are not yet on air. In relation to the ratings for this organisation, of course, the ratings are very good, with an average of 86 percent of New Zealanders watching each week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111ae97f4b2944c7acda7008a354695e\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with Television New Zealand\u2019s claims that it would be inappropriate for Bill Ralston to appear before the Finance and Expenditure Committee inquiry into recent events at Television New Zealand and about potential conflict between commercial and charter objectives, particularly given that Mr Ralston always has such a lot to say in the media and he himself is keen to appear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd3fa30e99a41e2b74cd6f0a33bf2a8\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: That, of course, is a matter for the board to decide, not me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d044c07e7dbe44f580558dd84956373b\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question specifically asked whether he agreed with Television New Zealand\u2019s claim; not whether he thought it was appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b62efb937c42db9acc6d21a51cf15a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order. The Minister addressed the question; he does not have to give an opinion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab53cef83f234cfaa2afcc97a33a02c9\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that next year Television New Zealand will be placing a much higher priority on commissioning charter programmes that maximise ratings, and either canning charter programmes that do not maximise ratings, or consigning them to inhospitable places on the schedule, unless they are sure bets; and is that another example of the successful transition to implementing charter objectives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a282c265b1254fbd81160c1375f7399c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It is for Television New Zealand to decide how it spends its money, but in principle I would say that we have asked it to be a mainstream\u2014if I can use that word\u2014television broadcaster, reflecting the needs in broadcasting of all New Zealanders. Therefore, the majority of its programmes will be targeted at a large audience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c0c1babe01454596be18ec938d8169\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government committed to providing a strong and sustainable public broadcasting environment for New Zealand that meets the obligations of the Television New Zealand charter; if so, when will he admit that the hybrid model is failing to deliver, and seriously investigate the three options proposed by Mr Ian Fraser in his memorandum to the board\u2014namely, turning Television One into a non-commercial channel, or making it semi-commercial, or developing several digital public service broadcasting channels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9051f2559054950b65444f38fbbdbdb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Government is committed to a strong, sustainable public broadcaster. There will be changes in the future, of course, such as the introduction of digital television. That will contain changes in all sorts of content, because there will be specialist channels under that kind of regime. So, yes, a lot of changes are before the television broadcaster and we are looking forward to them. They will all be consistent with public broadcasting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e59027cf46f4916ae73283a3f56d3ec\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Assessments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209b908ad89ff41b7a4e2693aad5c0321\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Have NCEA check markers been given expected profiles of performance for NCEA standards, containing bands of expected numbers of Achieved, Merit, and Excellence in each standard; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00226372f412598247c59c3b548051ceeb93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226372f412598247c59c3b548051ceeb93\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Only those check markers who are also panel leaders receive profiles. Profiles of expected performance are a monitoring tool that provides a forecast based on previous years\u2019 results. They are guidelines that provide a trigger to investigate the marking, when initial results indicate that students are not achieving consistently with what was expected when the exam was set. The development of these profiles is one of the key improvements, to avoid a repeat of the variability experienced in last year\u2019s exams. As Karen Sewell has noted, markers do not work to the profile. They are not set in stone. Markers still need to apply their experience and professional judgment to the student\u2019s work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b8c0f86f914f6c8a461f75cdc305cb\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that, in addition to the issues raised in the House, a school principal was asked on National Radio this morning whether he believed that markers were being asked to mark to predetermined pass rates, and he said: \u201CMarkers tell me that.\u201D, and is the Minister going to continue to say that the talk of informal and unofficial re-marking is simply a conspiracy cooked up by one critic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226278a473f95d4969ae6a6e43be54cdfe\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I did not hear the interview but I do understand that the three principals interviewed agreed at the end of the interview that as long as the exams were fair and consistent they would support them\u2014and that is what they will be. Do I believe there is a lone critic? Yes, I do; I think he is called Bill English. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c5a7f697b2147bcb56bf14b7a7e65f6\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: Has he been advised of any marking schedules that have been revised as a result of the monitoring process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0d8ce1945e244709b8aa458abc877b1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. I am advised that the marking schedules for 14\u2014or around 4 percent\u2014out of the 335 standards have been revised as a result of the monitoring process. For example, in level 1 Japanese and economics standards, students wrote answers that the marking schedules did not anticipate, but that demonstrated that the students had met the standards. The scope of the marking schedules for both those standards was extended to recognise that achievement. These provisions of the marking schedule, as Graham Young from the Secondary Principals Association said today, \u201Care actually addressing concerns of the public around variability through this process, and Bill English is simply mischief-making\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d0e0211157245d6906fbc7d35f88a9b\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister is aware that the principal of Christchurch Boys High School said this morning on National Radio that markers had told him that they were marking to predetermined pass rates, is he now telling the House that that principal was lying, or does he accept that people other than myself hold the view that there is widespread unofficial re-marking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b128cce2ffb545e9b3dea42f1fab409d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I said before that I did not hear the interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c06f0f8a6604877a51dfeb82e36372d\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister seen that New Zealanders can have full confidence in the exam system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ce0ac18b55d40e5b8cb2e3fdce53b18\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: NCEA has received endorsement from the Post Primary Teachers Association, the Secondary Principals Association, Business New Zealand, and many principals, teachers, markers, and students around the country. The acting chief executive of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has said repeatedly that we have \u201Can open and transparent process to ensure the results are consistent and fair.\u201D Those who set, sit, mark and administer the exams are confident the process is working. The only people who disagree are Bill English and the two people who wrote the anonymous emails to him. He has effectively called a respected senior public servant a liar, and would prefer to take the advice of anonymous people who send him emails.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faa7fb0eecf54459a2dbd2df93f04c20\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to a person, who is another marker of another exam that is not on his list, and says: \u201CI am currently marking one of the achievement standards for the second year in a row. We have been asked by the facilitator to adjust things so that there are more Achieved and Merit passes. What is annoying is that we are forced to push through students who have not achieved into the Achieved category who clearly have no knowledge of the subject at this level.\u201D, or does he think this person is making it up, as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c960bc9c73da43c69da8d44b9f8dfeae\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I would say to that person that he now has taken Bill English\u2019s emails to three, and I would recommend that those three people do what the acting chief executive has asked them to do: ring her directly and she will fix any problems they may have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af9c6080b9a442d9b32ba0c29f8a1371\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to a person, who is another marker of another exam that is not on his official schedule, who says: \u201CIn response to Karen Sewell\u2019s letter yesterday, I think what she is trying to say is that it\u2019s not scaling, even though we, as markers, smile and know the truth.\u201D, and who also says: \u201CThere are some terrible questions, and some too easy, that have gone through that have made it difficult to get the required distribution of grades.\u201D, or is that another marker who, alongside the principal of Christchurch Boys High School, is making it up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222acdca2df974a2f9c5f20715a415c0e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know what the member has got to say, because I do not know the person who has written to him, but let me just go to the heart of the principle of what is being outlined here, and that is whether we are scaling. Can I say yet again that\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d75c007e9c9646df89cdc01f1e59cd97\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the person with the cellphone on please turn it off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cf988aeea4f474eb9d8e33a4e284b04\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it is impossible to scale until all marks are in. We are in the process of marking now. Scaling takes place after all the marks are in. That is not part of this system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d63d90e164b422aaace09ad6098f66a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall that earlier this year, in the House, the Minister of Education, and, outside the House, the Qualifications Authority, denied that there was any problem with variability, at all, and can he confirm that he and the authority are now using the same tactic as they did earlier in the year\u2014deny the problem, attack the critics, hope it goes away, and when the subsequent inquiry confirms the truth, change tack and say that they knew all along that was what was happening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288f3d3ba42864775814c731bffe3e1e8\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The acting chief executive of the Qualifications Authority has announced every problem herself. Yes, we are determined to attack Bill English, and we do invite any of the people around the place who are having issues with NCEA to ring the acting chief executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bce91191680480fb142863b047e191c\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in fact the New Zealand Qualifications Authority did not volunteer to announce re-marking, but was forced to do so after a report in a Sunday newspaper a week ago outlining the problems with the biology exam\u2014that it was in response to those revelations that the authority explained that it was re-marking\u2014and why does he not just be honest about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068c15dbc76f447e8aba4dac7b20755d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Qualifications Authority has had a revision, under the aegis of the State Services Commission, all year. It always planned to be open and transparent, and that is what it is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d408c3ae20646afae81cfd246bc76bf\u0022\u003EKyoto Protocol\u2014Montreal Negotiations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ed45b88e2b43e4a1c04257b7a2cbcd\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: What reports has he received on the outcomes of the Montreal negotiations on the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) and under the Kyoto Protocol?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002212e6c225f6b749158c7cd785cb0e383a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212e6c225f6b749158c7cd785cb0e383a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E The Montreal negotiations achieved three significant advances. First, there was unanimous agreement that human-induced climate change is accelerating and is a very serious problem. Second, all United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change signatories, including the USA, agreed unanimously to work together on further climate change responses. Third, progress was made on implementing the Kyoto Protocol, which is at present the most important and effective instrument to tackle greenhouse gas emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022127948d524ef3982e436a492211a5\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: What risks to New Zealand\u2019s interests were avoided in relation to Kyoto Protocol carbon credits for exotic forests?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3c5c23d0ee04de5b7b39495c8fec4f9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was a potentially disastrous proposal that would have prevented New Zealand from counting pine forests as carbon sinks. Due to the good work of the New Zealand negotiators, this proposal was rejected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002223fefdaefa004f288a2200d0385a3845\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment, Minister\u2014Police Decision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b3c0d4fd6244a92b39635580a312508\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Is he satisfied with the way in which he and his office have handled the release of parts of his police file?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002280e0f0bc423a4997aaa6314571dd15fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280e0f0bc423a4997aaa6314571dd15fd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E As I have said previously, I authorised the release of information to a Sunday newspaper to provide balance to the misinformation provided to the House in the previous week by Rodney Hide. No constraint was placed on me with regard to the files in my possession, although in hindsight I recognise that releasing details was not the wisest course of action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a108f296fae475ba989dc906ff97191\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I think the answer to that is yes. When he authorised\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff183405f358445f937e5c4caf168189\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister answered the question. Would the member please ask a supplementary question\u2014no editorialising, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb9442d67a0f42098c85e921fb7b61d0\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When he authorised a staff member to release selected parts of the police report to a Sunday newspaper, did he also authorise that staff member to say that the Minister was unavailable for an interview and had no comment to make, and does he agree that that is very deceptive conduct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a938e7967749f1b6b97ea4034cf0ed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cdc386585bf47619735ded1a64bc2ae\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: If it was for the \u201Cpolice to release the report\u201D, as the Minister has publicly maintained, why did he decide to leak selective parts of the report in advance, and does he agree that it was a deceptive attempt to manipulate public opinion and erode the credibility of witnesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224be90b6559a1405c8a0e2362d6ea5d54\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: As I answered previously, I authorised the release of information to the Sunday newspaper to provide balance to the misinformation provided to the House in the previous week by Rodney Hide. No constraint was placed on me with regard to files in my possession, although in hindsight I recognise that my action was not appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266d9274634a34227bebc9180a3d917a1\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his statement to the House last Thursday when he said: \u201CThe material that was released was not selective. Also, as I said previously, it contained comment quite critical of myself.\u201D\u2014that is, of course, referring to the Minister\u2014and if so, which particular parts of that material does he consider to be quite critical of himself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e169533ce778463e91e3c22df9834f77\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I consider the material that was released was balanced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe090900ffa4dfb8b6090ad70b5cc82\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I do not believe that the Minister addressed that question. I asked him which particular parts of the material he considered to be quite critical of himself. His answer was about being fair, it was not about which material was quite critical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204079f92a8a547eea38012ad164d2163\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231b164846728454dbd496c47c6178993\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister since spoken to, or briefed in advance, the Prime Minister or any caucus colleagues about the handling of the police report; if so, what was the nature of the advice that they gave to him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260c32d13acf64921a12dfa2967289717\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have had no conversation with the Prime Minister over those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b9b9440b07b4c1097ba55e6bc07687a\u0022\u003ELand Transport\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E8. LINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako) on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223086107b66ba4563b67e9fb2adc8d341\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Will he be seeking a one-off, substantial injection of funding into the National Land Transport Fund to ensure that a number of roading projects can be completed within a realistic time frame?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3ee5839889c43b7b0f489b4f98172b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3ee5839889c43b7b0f489b4f98172b9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has already made substantial one-off payments as well as significant extra ongoing funding commitments for land transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb3f05382ecf4b219f0a8ac6c6a60627\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with Transit\u2019s assessment of the Mangatawhiri deviation project on State Highway 2 that: \u201CThe final cost of the project is likely to exceed the funding allocated by Land Transport New Zealand.\u201D; if so, what does he plan to do about getting this lifesaving project under way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2158e288e1b4230828ad6aef3de19e8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that Land Transport New Zealand has to make rationing decisions, and I stand by its decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228264286e4e684a62b3caa5d5b757d144\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister state very clearly and concisely to this House what extra funding the Government has made available to land transport since being elected in the year 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229448b11cd85d4434b6b305cffbcdb9f9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is spending $22.3 billion on land transport over 10 years. This includes substantial one-off payments of $900 million extra for Auckland, $885 million extra for Wellington, as well as substantial increases in provincial areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e9ce5f15a694751822c5825a0b03138\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that an announcement, prospectively, by the Wellington Regional Council chair that if the current consultation process on northern access ways to Wellington comes up favouring a staged approach to Transmission Gully as the preferred option, the council would then embark upon another round of consultation, being consistent with the realistic time frame provisions of the current legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1090c8b88f64740898e5a2d8fa3711e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government looks forward to the councils coming to the Government with a unified position, which we will then consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228de27c2066694b2cb72fdc320d3294fe\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Using Land Transport New Zealand\u2019s value of statistical life calculation, what is the economic and non-economic loss to the nation of M\u0101ori lives lost to road accidents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225870d54573254523932c124f3da6b0a5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot make that calculation here on the hoof, but suffice it to say it would be substantial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fdd8edc7c42422ca065ae721be044c9\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister assure the House that there will be adequate funding made available for roading infrastructure to adequately cope with the increased traffic volumes that will be generated by the Rugby World Cup in 2011?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227f3bd5b53a743b1b7d58aa37fc192ee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is, in effect, suggesting that $22.3 billion over 10 years is insufficient then I would say that, of course, the only reason can be substantial underfunding in the prior decade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a758e45f6b4e228dd64c84455db25f\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that roading in New Zealand was considerably underfunded when the National Party was last in power, and has he read the Allen report commissioned by the Automobile Association that clearly indicates there are huge economic and social gains by investing in roading, and will the Minister follow the recommendations of the Allen report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4179d7e7f04bec9c67479e183487c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I certainly agree that there was substantial underfunding, and perhaps the easiest way to assess that is to compare the level of money that was being spent on highways some 10 years ago and to relate that to the amount that is currently being spent, which is approximately 10 times as much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e701c48172344581923dbf4f845bb239\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. During the time my colleague was answering that very sensible question there were groans of admission and guilt from National members and all sorts of comments. I do not suggest that they should be thrown out, but to be fair and even-handed, you surely should have looked at those members and admonished them for their ill manners and bad behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4eabff0ab041a28e4bb2e48898c02e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I do remind members\u2014I had not heard any specific interjections\u2014the level of chatter and giggling that goes on is now reaching an unacceptable level, so would they please keep it down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0e163c7e8f24546906b495a7f3346b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: In his Budget bilateral meeting early next year with the Minister of Finance, will the Minister be reminding him of the calls by Mr Williamson for a substantial injection of more public spending on roads or reminding him of the calls by the Leader of the Opposition and the Opposition finance spokesperson, for a cut in public spending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282b211bd04cf4b698f55293ef57d78ca\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will be taking a moderate route through the middle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf6414f63514522865af96672551101\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Transit currently estimates the start date of the Newmarket viaduct improvement project as 2008\u201309, will the Minister commit to accelerated funding and resource mechanisms to ensure that this project will be completed by the time of the Rugby World Cup in 2011?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022945d7bcde0a34b6a85675b9084483304\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: While the Government is committed to improving roading infrastructure and public transport infrastructure in the run-up to the Rugby World Cup, it would be wrong to say that we would be markedly changing the State highway spending plans in order to deal with an event of some weeks or 1 or 2 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8f6a3e3fc04532b2d1cd70d2f51a2b\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Transit currently estimates the completion date of the State Highway 20 Mount Roskill extension as 2010, will the Minister assure the House that the extension will not face the same delays as faced by other roading projects around the country and be completed in time for the Rugby World Cup in 2011?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5920b97c7c54670bae671285ca8f3a7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the House that there are significant and very expensive\u2014multiples of hundreds of millions of dollars\u2014roading projects already being carried out in Auckland, including on the western ring route.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f24cf83ccec45f4a4e045a0b35bfd37\u0022\u003ESuperannuation\u2014Overseas Pensions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d79e38611a4d7eb76f9f737c482b00\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What progress, if any, has been made on the investigation into improving options for senior citizens eligible for overseas pensions as well as New Zealand superannuation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002231bc78003bc248b78df5f2a99e907f9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231bc78003bc248b78df5f2a99e907f9d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E On 24 November this year, officials provided a report to the Minister of Finance and myself on a range of 15 options to modernise the direct deduction policy where a superannuitant has an overseas pension similar to New Zealand superannuation, and to address issues associated with the payment of New Zealand superannuation overseas. The Minister of Finance and I met on 1 December and directed officials to report further to us by the end of February 2006 on a subset of options presented in the November report. I intend to bring proposals to Cabinet in the first half of 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b683c377d3ff47daaaf5ff35d0b5889f\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that this is a very important issue to many overseas people now resident in this country, and can he foreshadow any of the likely changes that will be made in the report when it is finally announced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a5e5a512b140c68fb827d7b68805aa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I do accept that, and I can confirm that nine of the 15 options presented in the November report concern the direct deduction policy, and six options concern the portability of New Zealand superannuation overseas. I intend to bring concrete proposals to Cabinet in the first half of the new year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c350f5fb1a464ccca903995e99675322\u0022\u003EImmigration Service\u2014Official Advice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207cefa6bfd404e80985a5b84a8d20c71\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Is he satisfied with the work carried out by his department, and in particular the advice he receives from his officials; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00223b42b7796cee41c7a0a4293df8445b9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b42b7796cee41c7a0a4293df8445b9a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Since becoming Minister of Immigration I have generally been happy with the advice that I have received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a247e132badf4c208c844a6c11430679\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that his department raised concerns about the honourable Taito Phillip Field\u2019s immigration representations prior to a visit by a group of Ministers to the honourable Taito Phillip Field\u2019s house in Samoa in March 2005; if so, what was the nature of those concerns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b57ebe8567f14bb9a67dd47a9d79141f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I have been advised by the Deputy Secretary of Labour that she did not raise any specific cases relating to ministerial representations with the former Minister of Immigration. She has advised that long before the visit to Samoa she raised general issues around perceptions of some MPs\u2019 advocacy of immigration cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9942e70d94543dbb25a62892b02192b\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House what advice he has received from his officials on how immigration is helping to meet New Zealand\u2019s skill shortages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fce49ba3a18490fbcb99ff0ba43c2e7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I have recently received advice on immigration decision numbers for the month of November 2005. I was interested to read that over 10,000 work visa and permit decisions were made in that month. Those represent a significant input of much-needed labour to help meet New Zealand\u2019s pressing skills and labour shortages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ab06cd641554751b7323a649e559091\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Which advice is Parliament now expected to believe: the advice the Minister has given the House just now, which is that no specific concerns were raised by his department prior to a group of Ministers visiting the honourable Taito Phillip Field\u2019s house in Samoa in March this year, or the advice Ms Mary Anne Thompson gave to a parliamentary select committee on Thursday morning last week, in which she very specifically told the parliamentary select committee, in public, that she had raised issues with the Hon Paul Swain around the honourable Taito Phillip Field\u2019s activities; which is the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f2f48f5d47c4a17b3baba54fd6633ed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: There is absolutely no conflict between my previous statement to the House and the statements made by the Deputy Secretary of Labour to that select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f35f6f1298e74d048442bd8732642aab\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister tell this House there is no conflict\u2014I have my notes from that meeting right here, and as that Minister knows I take careful notes at those select committee hearings\u2014when Mary Anne Thompson told the select committee, in public, that concerns were raised with Minister Swain by herself over this issue, and now the Minister tells this House that specific issues were not raised? There is clearly a conflict there; who is telling the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257ddc47b3c284471af40b52b0e23d6b8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Far be it from me to quibble with the meticulousness of the member\u2019s note taking, but I reaffirm to this House that the Deputy Secretary of Labour has advised that she did not raise with the former Minister of Immigration specific matters to do with any individual ministerial representation cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a26717fb27741f7bd0eae51f47183de\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Did his department alert Ministers, following the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s reported statement on 14 September that he was \u201Cunaware of Mr Siriwan\u2019s employment or activity in Samoa\u201D, that the department had actually raised concerns with Ministers at least 6 months earlier?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263c2294acad7435cbb5dce5a230bb84f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised by the deputy secretary that any concerns she raised with the former Minister of Immigration were of a general nature and did not relate to that particular case. I do not know how many times I have to assure the member of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea4280ebf03444bc8e8c0e84663d93cd\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister briefed on the progress of the inquiry by Dr Noel Ingram QC, and if so, has he been advised that a number of the key people involved in the honourable Taito Phillip Field\u2019s highly questionable immigration activities are refusing to be interviewed by the inquiry; if he has not been briefed, why is he not insisting that he be kept informed of the significant inquiry into the activities of his department and of Labour Government Ministers, both current and former?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aa8c8340bae4b5194433e1b59add5e3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: No, because it would be improper for me to interfere in the progress of a ministerial inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aaa0e99fd5fb495fa832ce0b3acfa16a\u0022\u003ESmoke-free Environments Amendment Act\u2014Public Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1342b2ad28e425599bd474383f83e60\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What reports has he received about the public\u2019s response to the introduction of the Smoke-free Environments Amendment Act 2003?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022376f2fd5a37d4a3d9c8c6d0b2a958dbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022376f2fd5a37d4a3d9c8c6d0b2a958dbc\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted that the Ministry of Health has recently released a report entitled The Smoke is Clearing: Anniversary Report 2005, which supports the significant health benefits for bar and restaurant workers and customers arising from, and confirms strong public support for, the legislation. The report also found no overall downturn in bar and retail sales, tourism, or employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022705157f3a924458fa92d3a2c115f4fdb\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any further reports on the Smoke-free Environments Amendment Act 2003?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddc4690bf79a40379139f85d0dc23730\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, a survey from the Asthma and Respiratory Foundation shows 67 percent public support for the Act. I have also seen a report stating that the law goes too far and is an example of a nanny State, and yet another stating that the law should not be scrapped. The first report came from the PC eradicator, Dr Wayne Mapp, and the second from Dr Don Brash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224455833155424e5183bffb60f85309ed\u0022\u003EForeign Policy\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E12. GERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National) on behalf of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac2c092a06304528ba9a5c220c374344\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Does he have confidence in all of the foreign policies of the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8ec69ccdb954f65bb330287d8ee72d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8ec69ccdb954f65bb330287d8ee72d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The answer is yes. Not only is that a condition of the supply and confidence agreement with the Government, but I have successfully represented this country and the Government at several international meetings over the last month. By my actions, I have demonstrated our commitment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70e3d63a00a42da87d703e0cf086827\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What negotiating stance will New Zealand be taking in relation to the Convention on Biological Diversity with regard to trade in genetic resources, and how does that stance relate to the development of New Zealand\u2019s domestic law in that area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610bb0214a6e4c56966a3559bb85b4a2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That issue is at a putative stage and is in the hands of one of my colleagues, the name of whom the member should know if he is going to be a foreign affairs spokesperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022576034699a04416ca64d731323072ec8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Why does it appear that the Minister is not aware that the briefing to the incoming Minister of Foreign Affairs states specifically on page 49 that officials still require decisions on New Zealand\u2019s position in respect of those negotiations, and raises concerns that international negotiations may get ahead of New Zealand\u2019s domestic policy; is he unaware because he has not actually read the ministerial briefing papers, or can he answer the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2b7f054c338401d86795ccfb2755def\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I think I answered the question by saying that this issue was at its putative stages, and, of course, one has to understand what the word \u201Cputative\u201D means, and that is where I lost the member\u2014all of which characteristics are in the emails I have regarding the National Party\u2019s internal workings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8ba33e463a840c080c9114aedbe042c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last part of the answer was not relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c05f070cead94516b8b8b13f820946ef\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: He aha te t\u016Bnga o Aotearoa m\u014D te \u0101hua tino rangatiratanga o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata whenua o te ao, \u0101, i k\u014Drero Te Manat\u016B Aorere o Aotearoa ki a wai?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[What is New Zealand\u2019s position towards indigenous peoples of the world and their right to self-determination, and who did the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of New Zealand consult?] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222565133370df4e3cbe1638caf137d3a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I tell my learned colleague the questioner that there is a tremendous number of issues on which the Government has to consult, in respect of indigenous people around the world. Whenever and however the Government is to be able to do it, in the end those matters will go to Cabinet, and there will be M\u0101ori affairs input if it is appropriate. But perhaps the best answer is this: in consulting the indigenous people, the Government appointed one as the Minister of Foreign Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209feb25bbcdb4130aa26c4f92cd836e1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister tell the South China Morning Post that in carrying out New Zealand\u2019s foreign policy he was able to rely on his reservoir of personal contacts in Asia, including the Prime Minister of Singapore who retired 15 years ago; that Prime Minister\u2019s successor, whose name the Minister could not recall; leading members of the Government of the Philippines, whom the Minister described to the paper as \u201CFilipinos I have met\u201D; members of the Malaysian Government, whose names he could not recall; and his very, very good friend the former chief executive of Hong Kong, of whom the Minister said to the newspaper: \u201CHis name just temporarily escapes me.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ede8e8d6fb9b493eb25631a10688f557\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I have no difficulty in demonstrating the duplicity and deceit in that article. Firstly, there have been two successors to former Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew\u2014that is the first fact that that correspondent got wrong. Secondly, Tung Chee-hwa was not the chief executive at the time that article was written\u2014another baseless deceit on that newspaper\u2019s part. If the newspaper wants to engage in that sort of chronological nonsense, then no doubt it will keep referring such matters to the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233bc35bede9b4e3597b002d4ba08e655\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Should New Zealanders be concerned that not only our domestic media but now, it would seem, the international media have it in for this Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d56f231f114a3f983883bb22a78861\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The fact is that what we saw, post the decision to appoint a new Minister of Foreign Affairs, was New Zealand journalists frequently appearing in overseas magazines, then their editors back here saying: \u201CWow, this is terrible; look at what they\u2019re saying in overseas magazines!\u201D\u2014all those articles having been written by the meerkats of the press gallery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cf6d5af73a842b19bcd9fbad33c5ff2\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the House\u2019s interest in the Minister\u2019s portfolio, and, indeed, in the Minister himself, will he enlighten the House as to whether the reports in the New Zealand Herald written by its correspondent accurately reflect the Minister\u2019s meetings at APEC in Korea, and the East Asia Summit in Malaysia; if not, how do they not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299cbab31cd0a499c830f2a5ea1c285d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good case in point. The New Zealand Herald correspondent at no time was at any meeting about which she wrote. Even though she was told the story was a fabrication, or bovine scatology, she stood by \u201Cher sources\u201D. Then she repeated the fabrication yesterday in the New Zealand Herald by saying two things in the article\u2014that Mr Peters had sought to defuse tensions, when no such thing occurred at all, and that I had described myself there as the \u201Cnew boy on the block\u201D, which I demonstrably was not, because that was Taro Aso, the Foreign Minister of Japan, who was appointed after me. But right there are three demonstrable examples of an experienced journalist making it up as she goes along, then having her colleagues defend what is a tissue of lies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d8d9ffea2b4736b77baf00f1b98ef5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister think this particular journalist has it in for him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281037fb40a744cc9b01cf8c851466a51\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We are getting a bit broad of the primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd0349eba94544fbb942d82abc62c886\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I asked a question like that because you had allowed that ridiculous question from Peter Brown, and you got the ravings of the Minister. Surely we can now just find out what it is, and if it is personal, we can leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcab059c191c4a4d8a1d96d4274e5339\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I allowed that question because, in the supplementary questions, issues had been raised about articles; that is why that question was permitted. But I will ask the Minister to reply, as members seem to wish to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3c70870dd1249eca3056690df5312a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to that question is to be found in 3 years of emails of the National Party\u2019s internal workings, where the New Zealand Herald is concerned. [Interruption] Oh, I know what those members are thinking: they are wondering whether I have one telephone book full of those emails, or 10. Well, I have to tell those members that, in all this excitement, I myself clean forgot to count them. But given that this is the most damaging information seen in the Western World, and could blow their political heads clean off, they have to ask themselves this question: \u201CDo you feel lucky?\u201D. Well, do ya, punks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa46bef3ac4a40f6b66355429d9b14d1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: We have no objection to the Minister tabling that material\u2014but of course we do not expect ever to see it. Can the Minister confirm that following his public offer to the National Party of a briefing on foreign affairs matters, made some 2 months ago, and subsequent letters and phone calls to his office requesting such a briefing, he has not made a time for such a briefing, because he himself has not read the briefing papers to the incoming Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c031599ee0945d4963fa35cce098cd4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I hasten to defend my ministry by saying that the fact is its officials are waiting to set a time with Mr McCully when he will turn up at Parliament instead of spending all his time writing on his website about the Minister of Foreign Affairs travelling first-class, which I never have and do not now. In contrast, when he was the Minister of Tourism he travelled nothing but first-class.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf5f669894164ebd8b19561470d85aba\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The question should be answered. The Minister can address questions as he will\u2014I accept that\u2014but, for goodness\u2019 sake, all we are asking him is how soon will he know enough about foreign affairs to be able to give us a briefing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2fe66272734786a6d36c18b600cab9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The point is my ministry awaits a time and destination to fully apprise Mr McCully. But I have told officials that that might take 6 months of intense work, 8 hours a day, so they are looking for a time of suitable mutual engagement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5bd9c769a3243cdac8a8d9ec06b29ac\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da4e03833c194a38b003e6d40c3c7a29\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022afde299da0d040e28e0765be2fe0de74\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00222bd9c0ed69e340d79b36138f4c8288e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bd9c0ed69e340d79b36138f4c8288e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the passing through their remaining stages of the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, and of any bills into which those bills may be divided; the introduction and passing of the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill; the passing through their remaining stages of the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill and the Veterinarians Bill; and the first readings of the Sports Anti-Doping Bill, the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill, the Standards and Conformance Bill, the Geographical Indications (Wine and Spirits) Registration Bill, the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters (Information Matching) Amendment Bill, and the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Bill. This motion is moved in order that a number of bills can be completed for legal or administrative reasons before the House rises for the Christmas adjournment; also, in order that a number of other bills can be referred to select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00221b6ec356c47f468d85b50b8f28c999d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b6ec356c47f468d85b50b8f28c999d3\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. When will the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill be made available to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c70f325158fa45ef96c34fe39a928552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c70f325158fa45ef96c34fe39a928552\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E That bill will be made available not long before we get to its introduction and first reading. I will be happy to arrange, if need be, for copies to be made available to the various party spokespeople, and for them to talk to officials about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022519743551f884c2ab3d2f37e63423d01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022519743551f884c2ab3d2f37e63423d01\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This is a technical matter that you might be able to instruct us on. We understand that a decision is pending on the Tauranga case\u2014relating to the electoral petition there\u2014that would be reported to the House. Does the taking of urgency today prevent the House from receiving that information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002278a716b6f74141fa8b6f74e17f1eb23a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278a716b6f74141fa8b6f74e17f1eb23a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that point. The decision could be tabled, but only with the leave of the House. Certainly, I would seek the leave of the House to do that if it becomes available, but obviously I do not know when that will be. Did Mr Tisch have another point of order? I think that the Minister, in his reply relating to the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill, said that it must be tabled before its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e67ffd8551494bd3a2e05ddd0cc92c00\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229778281e7d1c433eb75e2cd5c1f65e54\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022083cf90ae26b49cf86abe52f1f46139f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6f73ab0d40b4db5a82f3dd0f1041b70\u0022\u003EPart 1  Annual rates of income tax for 2005-06 tax year\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022eea8fdbd58c44502adc1980261f62fc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eea8fdbd58c44502adc1980261f62fc6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E This part sets the tax rates for the 2005-06 year. Dr Cullen will no doubt be reflecting deeply through the debate on this part, because in it is the very small piece of policy that almost cost him the Government. But for the student loan bribe\u2014as he explained to the vice-chancellors the other day\u2014he probably would have lost the election. I do not think there is much doubt about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E The problem for the Committee is that it needs the opportunity to consider other points of view about the tax rates for this tax year. I would like the Minister in the chair, Dr Michael Cullen, to give us a considered opinion on what the Council of Trade Unions had to say about what tax rates he should be setting. In its post-election briefing to the incoming Minister, the Council of Trade Unions stated: \u201CWe have been concerned that many workers now believe that the fiscal surplus is larger than it needs to be, and this has given impetus to the case for tax cuts.\u201D Well, I am sure it has. I would be keen for the Minister to tell us how he will respond to the Council of Trade Unions, which, to be fair, has not put the case aggressively in its briefing, but does, I think, represent the views of many workers fairly. Every time workers see the fiscal surplus reported, they think the Government has too much money, and every time they look at their monthly overdraft, they think they have too little money. Of course, Dr Cullen will explain that the fiscal surplus is not really the fiscal surplus. That is one of his interesting little games for now, but I can assure him that it amounts to a fiscal dead end to try to shift the goalposts right over to the side of the paddock instead of leaving them where everyone knows they have always been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo I would be interested in what Dr Cullen\u2019s reaction is to that information from the Council of Trade Unions. When Treasury said something similar, he christened its considerations as an ideological burp. Well, I would ask what this one is. Is it an ideological reflux or an ideological cough? Is it a malapropism\u2014something the Council of Trade Unions should not have actually said but did? The Council of Trade Unions then went on to be more specific. It did not lay out a particular set of tax scales that its members would be interested in, but it did focus on Dr Cullen\u2019s own proposal, which was that the tax brackets be inflation-adjusted. It said that the first inflation adjustment of tax brackets should be moved forward from 2008 to 2006. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI have gone back and looked at the fiscal situation when Dr Cullen proposed that inflation adjustment, and I found that the surplus being projected then was much smaller\u2014significantly smaller\u2014than the surplus being projected now. If Dr Cullen is denying that, I would be happy to hear from him on it. In my view, and in the view of the National Party, there absolutely is room on the books for him to bring forward the adjustment, as the Council of Trade Unions believes he should. I do not think it is saying that for ideological reasons; I think it is saying it for political reasons. The reason is that when its workers look at where interest rates are going, they know they will be significantly worse off under a re-elected Labour Government. Workers, having voted Labour in, have figured out in the last couple of weeks that because Labour policies are pushing up interest rates, they will end up being worse off. Many of those who have benefited from campaigns like the \u201C5 in 05\u201D campaign run by the New Zealand Amalgamated Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union will be no better off. They are starting to signal that to their elders and betters in the union movement, who have been brave enough to put a specific proposal to Dr Cullen in their post-election briefing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIf Dr Cullen expects this Committee to support Part 1, then he should give members an explanation as to why he cannot bring forward that inflation adjustment. He needs to explain that move to the Council of Trade Unions, to the Committee, and to United Future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002257ed430a40634a649178d8991da72f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257ed430a40634a649178d8991da72f9e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I think one of the problems Mr English always gets himself into is that he cannot read documents properly. Of course, the Council of Trade Unions did not say that the surplus is too large.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f413462c863946f099cd2982143bb2a0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I said the workers think it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ffcb49ae8f047058566d21ad77ca232\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, he said the workers think it is\u2014precisely! The Council of Trade Unions is not arguing\u2014[Interruption] But the member was inferring from that statement that, therefore, there was room for tax cuts. Mr English said that because people wrongly believe the surplus is too large, we should therefore respond to their wrong belief and have a tax cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f7e29a8728641eab63c93abed9794a9\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc17dbb392b94eae9b6344b49c8f2aa8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014that is Mr English\u2019s economic policy. That is why Mr Key has replaced him as the Opposition spokesperson on finance. What Treasury said, what the Reserve Bank said, and what the OECD said was not what National thinks they said. They all said that the surplus should be kept at its current level and that there should not be any further fiscal easing. Mr English\u2019s problem\u2014and for all that Southland country bumpkin thing, he is actually a first-class honours English graduate from the University of Otago\u2014is that he knows these things. He knows that, in fact, giving a tax cut is the same as having an increase in spending in terms of fiscal easing. It goes the same way. It both lowers the operating surplus and therefore increases and stimulates demand and therefore inflationary pressures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThat is why if the National Party wants to give $2 billion of tax cuts from 1 April next year, and it swallows its pride and reads the Treasury papers properly, it will find out that Treasury says, first, its policy was all wrong\u2014it was the wrong tax cuts\u2014and, second, that to pay for them, it has to cut spending by that amount. What Treasury actually said was that if we scrimp and save and take about $300 million off the growth in spending each year\u2014and it cannot come up with any significant ways of doing it, other than all the usual things such as to increase the age for superannuation, and better target support for childcare, that is, more income testing, etc.\u2014then we will have little tax cuts year by year by year. But it has never argued that we can afford large tax cuts absent a large decrease in spending. That is the Treasury position; that is the OECD position. Indeed, if we take Treasury at its face value and it cost $300 million a year, we could afford $900 million, which is less than half of the first round of what National is proposing for 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMr English, before the election, was admitting privately up and down the country that the policy did not make sense. He was going to go quiet on it and hope National did not win, because then he could become the leader after the election and reverse that silly policy. We know that Mr English, on that front bench, was the only one who actually understood that the policy did not make sense, and that was why he dissociated himself from that policy in any number of private meetings up and down the country before the election. I got plenty of reports back about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESo all this part does is confirm the current tax rates. The challenge for members opposite is very simple: if they want to lower tax rates, tell us where the corresponding spending cuts will come from. What will get hatcheted? Mr Borrows wants more police. Mr Williamson wants more money for roads. Mr Finlayson probably wants more judges, or at least more money to be paid to judges. He certainly wants more QCs, that is for sure, and that ups their fees when we have to pay for them to represent the Crown. I have yet to hear from a single Opposition spokesperson who does not want more money spent in his or her area, both geographically and in policy terms\u2014and that member is the worst.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00220d5bff03395143cf9124264d6670577e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d5bff03395143cf9124264d6670577e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I suspect that history will not treat this Minister of Finance well. This former history lecturer argues that one of the reasons Government spending is clearly not burgeoning out of control is that the Government is running a big surplus. He argues continuously that, quite clearly, Government spending is not burgeoning out of control, because we have got a big surplus, so that cannot be. Then, on the other hand, he argues that, in fact, the Government does not have a big surplus. That is what he has been arguing just now. I say to the Minister that he actually needs to get his mind focused a little better around some of these economic issues. He has a capable mind and he should focus it a little better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAs we debate Part 1, the question is whether we should now be confirming the current tax rates. I would like the Minister to answer a couple of questions. When he became Treasurer and Minister of Finance and raised the top tax rate to 39c, which is reconfirmed today, what percentage of taxpayers did he say would be affected by that and what percentage of taxpayers will pay that top tax rate next year, once we confirm these tax rates for next year? I remember when the Government raised those tax rates back in early 2000. The Minister said that not many New Zealanders would be affected by this, it would be only a very small percentage of New Zealand taxpayers. I do not know how many New Zealand taxpayers will be paying that top tax rate next year, once we confirm them. The second question is whether it is correct that last year OECD data indicated that ordinary New Zealand workers\u2014I think the OECD calls them production workers\u2014faced the biggest increase in tax payments, or the second biggest in the entire OECD. Is it possible that one of the reasons is that the average New Zealand production worker, as the OECD calls them, was at that $38,000 threshold of annual income from where they go on to a higher tax rate? If that is the case, why will this Minister not listen even to the Council of Trade Unions? Almost every economist, other than the most left wing, argues there should be some tax easing. Even the Council of Trade Unions argues that there should be some tax easing. Why does the Minister not bring forward, as the Council of Trade Unions argues, the inflation adjustments for those thresholds? Unless there is an inflation adjustment, clearly increasing numbers of New Zealanders will be paying higher taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis is where I come back to my first point. How can the Government argue that its spending is prudent, when it is collecting hugely increasing levels of taxation because of fiscal drag, when there are huge increases in the number of New Zealanders paying higher tax rates, when the Government is raking in massive increases in revenue, and this Minister is presiding over a 40 percent increase in Government spending, just since he has been Minister? This is the problem we have. We are confirming these tax rates, locking in the massive increase in tax revenue that this Minister has been dragging in, and, consequently, the Minister claims that the big fiscal surpluses as a result mean that he is not allowing Government spending to burgeon out of control. Treasury says that Government spending is out of control. The Reserve Bank has made it very clear that Government spending is a serious problem, as it seeks to control inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Minister does not seem to understand that the difference between Government spending and tax cuts is significant. Both, obviously, put inflationary pressure in the system, but the difference is that all Government spending puts inflationary pressure into the system. Tax cuts mean that some money is saved. Some people save money, and history shows us that. If Treasury is questioned on this matter, if the Reserve Bank is questioned on this matter\u2014as they were at the select committee the other day\u2014they would confirm that tax cuts are less inflationary than Government spending, because some tax cuts are saved by certain taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66a0237f8d54084812820809840a5a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: In New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229189ec32eb14b359441f6ebd04a0693\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, they are. Some tax cuts are saved; all Government spending is spent. If we are concerned about interest rates and the future of this economy, we should not be confirming these tax rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022120e9f2b694d448f8ce7f7c5276884f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022120e9f2b694d448f8ce7f7c5276884f8\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I want to respond briefly to that traditional vein-popping speech made by Dr Lockwood Smith. He talked about the Treasurer\u2019s place in history, as we address the setting of the tax rates. Well, I just remind Dr Smith that he was one of the three who auditioned for the National Party spokespersonship on finance, but did not make it, then lost the foreign affairs spokesmanship, and then Tim Groser came along and stole the ball gown from him and took trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say to him that these tax rates today set the platform for our policies, which this Government won an election on. I note that Dr Smith did not answer the challenge that Dr Cullen put to him\u2014where would the cuts have been made by a National Government? How many schools would it have closed and how many nurses would it have disposed of? During the election campaign members opposite went around the country saying that Labour had taken on all these policy wonks and consultants, and that they would be gutting the public service, yet they knew deep down\u2014and, as Dr Cullen pointed out, Bill English knew this\u2014that the vast majority of public servants under this Government are front line, such as police and nurses, and others in jobs that help the country\u2019s infrastructure. So where would National have made the cuts? If it was not going to make cuts, then is it today surrendering and backing off on its spending promises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EDr Smith talked about prudent fiscal management, when it was Dr Smith\u2019s party that went into an election promising to spend billions of dollars, and based in large part, on borrowing. Even the National candidate in my electorate would not admit it, when confronted by John Key\u2019s own words, poll-driven and said all around the country, that it was based on borrowing. No one in the National Party would admit it. So I ask the House and the people of New Zealand to reflect on the legacy of fiscal management and the integrity around Dr Smith\u2019s statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThese tax rates build on Labour\u2019s commitments, and this Government, unlike that mob opposite, has a habit of keeping its promises and has a habit of delivering to the people when it fronts up to an election, and beyond. So I ask people to judge. When we are talking about a place in history, I will be proud to stand up as an Associate Minister of Finance, alongside Dr Cullen, and say that we delivered on what we said we would do, and that we were fiscally prudent. I said about two Budgets ago, when Bill English attacked the Labour Party\u2014I am a little bit of a scholar of history\u2014for being too tight, I never thought in my wildest dreams I would hear Bill English, a National Party front-bench spokesperson, or anyone from the National Party, attack a Labour Government for being too fiscally tight. Traditionally National tries to say that Labour blows the lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298ae85c57f734605892dde22fe5dd69b\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Spending has been massive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224652c736384d418eba51540fc8ba4828\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to have a look at his own party\u2019s manifesto. I invite him to get to his feet again and tell us what he would cut out of his manifesto, the manifesto that he took to the people of Waimakariri and others right around the country, and said: \u201CThis is what we will do. This is how much we will spend on defence, on prisons, on education.\u201D, although they were a bit short on education. When people asked what National\u2019s education policy was the candidate would stand and say: \u201CWe are for high standards.\u201D, and sit down. The candidate in my electorate used to do that regularly. She used to say: \u201CWe are for excellence in education.\u201D, and then sit down. She would never tell us where the dollars were coming from. In the last election National told us how much it would spend on defence, prisons, and education, but then said it would gut the public service, which in code meant gut teachers. National cannot have it both ways. It cannot say it wants excellence in education, cut taxes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222696c43fe52049fd95934f506459c8ad\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: And nurses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229342748faded4af8af3d2fecf5d699af\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and nurses, and then say it would borrow a heap of dough to pay for its election promises, and then like some sort of road to Damascus experience say that the National Party that Dr Smith represents is somehow fiscally prudent. Give me a break!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe problem with that arrogant crew opposite is that they think people are silly, they think communities cannot see through them or add up. I recall one time when I was on the radio with National\u2019s deputy leader and he made the inappropriate comment that New Zealanders do not understand Budgets, or how the economy works, or a set of Government books. I said to Mr Brownlee that Kiwis who can balance their own wage book, their own housekeeping money, and buy their groceries understand how the economy works. What an arrogant statement from the deputy leader. When we went around the country during the election campaign we knew that people understood that if we spend the lot and if we cut taxes and have less revenue, we would have to cut Government services. That crew opposite could not con the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbddaa289bcc499ea035884100850365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbddaa289bcc499ea035884100850365\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed his seat would never let the truth get in the way of a good rant, and that is what we have just had. One of the things that he said is that people should be able to keep their own money. That is what he said in his great ranting. He said that if people are clever enough to balance their own cheque books and their budgets, they are clever enough to understand these economic issues. Well, yes they are, and I wish he would speak very carefully to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Dr Cullen, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217487ed50c0a4797b455b52d14588dee\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why the people voted for Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e05e3ecd4b64d5dac254b5203e03f0c\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: We hear the member for Otaki, the man with the smallest majority in Parliament. Poor Mr Hughes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMr Cosgrove should talk to the Minister of Finance about how clever people are and that they can balance their own budgets, and should be able to keep their own money. That is what the National Party believes in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI know it might be different in Dr Cullen\u2019s situation, but a lot of New Zealanders have a huge amount of debt. Many people spend more than they earn, and one of the problems is that they are borrowing and borrowing. It is all very well for the Reserve Bank to say that it will put up the interest rates. In fact, there have been nine increases in the last 2 years. [Interruption] If the member opposite would like to repeat that statement outside the House, I would be very happy to sue him, and I suggest he do exactly that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc7a400b1df4c2e8338fd6617bc8751\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That touched a wee nerve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5b508ca2894a67b0f3aea4e9f16862\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Some people actually have standards, and I know that member does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn terms of this hardship that New Zealanders are facing, at the moment they are facing very high interest rates, which this Government does not care about but encourages. It is all very well to say that that will stop them from borrowing more money. It does not help them with the debt they currently have. People were feeling quite good before, because their interest rates were a bit lower, but the values of their properties were going up. That was being driven by immigration. What we have at the moment are people who are very much hurting from the interest rate increases, and they are hurting from the credit cards they have spent up on. I know it is something that the Prime Minister might not know about, but most people are finding there are sales everywhere in the shops\u2014they are not post-Christmas sales\u2014because shopkeepers are starting to find it very hard. There is not enough cash to keep the economy going; there is not enough interest there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EDr Cullen\u2019s excuse is that he will hold all the money for us and he will dish it out occasionally for little pet projects. He thinks he is the only one who is clever enough to use the money, except it is not his money; it is the people\u2019s money. Why can people not keep their own money? He says that National would cut all these services. There is a massive surplus that keeps on growing, as he keeps on overtaxing people. What he should be thinking is that he should not be taking so much money from the pockets of hard-working New Zealanders and that maybe he should not be saying to people, who are struggling on one income with a couple of kids to look after: \u201CI, Michael Cullen, know best and I\u2019ll dole out something to my favourite pet projects. And if you want your childcare, I\u2019ll say you can have 20 hours free childcare in a kindergarten.\u201D The only trouble is the kindergarten teachers go on strike all the time because they do not trust this Government, either. That is what they did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOf course, what the Government does not want is for people to make their own choices about where their children go to school, or whether they have childcare. The Government wants none of that. Of course, we know why. This Government does not trust people. It tells everyone to be frightened, and that although they might be good at being in charge of their own money, they cannot trust themselves. Yet we have heard Mr Cosgrove today telling everyone how clever people are in their households. It is a shame that Mr Cullen cannot actually understand that people want their own money back. His reason for saying that is that he wants to dole it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo we will have householders who at the moment are having to pay very high interest rates on their home loans and credit card debts, and at the same time their teenage children will be getting absolutely interest-free money to spend pretty much as they want on anything they want. Now, how is it going to be for the 40-year-olds and the 50-year-olds who have children in that age group, who are trying to pay off their mortgages while their kids are living at home and getting interest-free money to have whatever tertiary education they want?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b161ece0665d45f9bc3fc5ffeffc9716\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b161ece0665d45f9bc3fc5ffeffc9716\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am not a student of history. I have not taught history. I do not even have a good mind for history, and everybody knows that. But I will tell the House one thing. I was in the National Party for a number of years, and it has gone to the pack since then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI was sitting here listening to the speeches from the National Party members, and I was trying to think\u2014students of history may be able to tell me\u2014of the last time that National cut taxes. I was trying to think of how many National Governments in the past 50 years or whatever have cut taxes. I remember working as a party volunteer for many, many years, and I remember getting a really hard time many times\u2014not just once but many times\u2014when National put taxes up, but I cannot remember when it put them down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is happy to support this tax amendment bill, because, like most other New Zealanders, we looked at tax cuts and that sort of thing, and we decided, and have it as a policy, that there should be tax cuts for exporters. We believe there should be incentives for people to export out of this country. The people who send our goods overseas should be encouraged and should have tax breaks so they can reinvest and be better able to do those things. But, no, no, National members were not talking about that. They were talking about tax cuts across the board. It has not worked for President Bush, I might tell members, but nevertheless National members think that that is the way to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe thing that we in New Zealand First could not get around and the thing that worried us most of all is the thing that has been spoken about by Labour Party members this afternoon, and that is the question of where the money was going to come from. We believe we know where the money was going to come from. It was going to come, very definitely, from cuts in Government services\u2014there is no question about that\u2014and it was going to come from an area that we thought even National had learnt a lesson in, and that is the business of asset sales. National was going to get back into the business of asset sales. They were going to get back into the business of selling off key assets in this country, probably to the same people or associates of the same people they sold assets to some time before. I will not go down the list. I will not talk about all those things that were supposed to have worked more efficiently and better and provide better services under the free-enterprise system, in the hands of private owners, because we all know the history of Air New Zealand, rail, and all those sorts of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EMr Clayton Cosgrove talked about borrowing for the tax cuts, which was mooted at the recent election, and National members say that that is not correct. But I can tell members, though, that they did not deny that very strenuously at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd22be55ae44d488fd71bab2cc96872\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: John Key is on the record as saying they will borrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204959ee8033145d28562ed770a97ff21\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: He said they would borrow? Well, speaking of John Key, I can tell members that I was in this House last week when this bill was being debated\u2014Mr Cosgrove will not believe this; he was not here, probably\u2014and John Key gave a big speech about the bill but did not mention tax cuts. He did not even mention tax cuts. National\u2019s finance spokesperson did not mention tax cuts. He was in the Chamber, ranting and raving, going on about everything under the sun, but he did not mention tax cuts, which is a key policy. In fact, I believe it is the only policy that was part of the National Party election campaign. The policy did not do it for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cc00638cdf04384a325bc2ca3d64ff1\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no\u2014that is because he is on 7 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068aaee6844e4d12a71c576fb9346315\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is an interesting team, over here. Mr English is coming up. Dr Cullen, with due respect to him, is a smart man, but he asked: \u201CWhy is Bill English saying these things?\u201D. He knows. He is being cute. He knows that this is not about the tax bill. This is not about any of this. They were pre-election speeches. What election? We have just had one. It is a leadership election. That is what it is about, and that is why we have the team over here. I am going to watch very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u002250a471d5969047298d0ab21deb0eb5d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250a471d5969047298d0ab21deb0eb5d1\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E As I rise to speak on the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill, I have to make a comment about the wonderful piece of nostalgia that that speech was. Mr Woolerton has given me the opportunity to have an appreciation of what the National Party must have been like 30 years ago when I was a child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EKiwis doing their pre-Christmas light reading who cast an eye over this bill will be extremely disappointed. Those hard-working Kiwis who are looking for a bit extra in their pockets before Christmas will be very disappointed. Part 1 confirms the tax rates as they stand. It confirms that there will be no additional relief for those Kiwis who have worked all year and made a huge difference to this country. They have got up every morning and done the right thing\u2014they have gone to work, paid their bills, and paid for extras for their kids\u2014but there is nothing extra in this bill for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI want to talk about middle-income New Zealanders\u2014who are somewhat amorphously called \u201Cmiddle New Zealand\u201D. Those are the Kiwis who pay for everything. They pay for their medical bills. They pay a lot of education fees. They pay for everything. They do not get any handouts from Work and Income, they do not get any extras, and they are currently struggling to pay their bills. There is nothing in this bill for them. There is nothing for the hard-working electricians, plumbers, and gasfitters who have been coming to talk to our select committee week after week. [Interruption] \u201CThe Grinch Who Stole Waimakariri\u201D is sitting over there. He should be wanting to play Santa to some of his hard-working constituents. There is nothing in this bill for those Kiwis\u2014nothing at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI take issue once again with Mr Woolerton. I cannot believe that John Key would stand in this House, speak to this bill, and not mention tax cuts. That member has lived and breathed that policy for the last 6 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThat policy, I think, shows a fundamental difference between the parties. National believes that New Zealanders deserve to keep more of their own money in their pockets. Labour believes that it is best to take that money out of their pockets, then to hand it back, and it expects those who do get something back to be gracious for that support. We believe that New Zealanders can make up their minds about how they spend their money. We trust them to spend their money in the ways they see fit, and we do not make any judgments about who deserves tax relief more than anybody else. One of the things we find with some of the tax plans put forward by Labour is that they are very selective indeed. There will be nothing for a person who happens to be a single worker without children. There will be nothing for a person who happens not to be a student with a student loan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things we will find, when the Government starts to dabble with the present tax system, is there will end up being distortions. Already we are seeing some students saying they will take out a greater loan because it is free\u2014they are actually financially motivated to do so. Labour does not think that will happen, but there is not one single person who understands the way financial markets and financial incentives work who would say that students will not be encouraged to take out additional funding and invest it if they are able to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe have seen some interesting comments about inflation. I wonder why Dr Cullen thinks that if New Zealanders spend their own money, it is inflationary, but if the Government cranks up the amount it spends, it is not inflationary. I would have thought that a dollar was a dollar, no matter how it was spent. So that is an interesting, selective view of economics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things National believes in is a move towards flattening the tax rates. It is not just National that is saying that; Treasury is also saying it. We need to simplify the tax system we currently have, yet every single idea put forward by Labour will just add a greater amount of complexity to the current tax rates, and will not introduce any greater amount of simplicity at all, and that will make administration costs a lot higher. I would like to hear Dr Cullen talk about what the cost will be of the implementation of the Working for Families package\u2014a churning process that will take money from New Zealanders, only to hand it back, with the Government expecting them to be gracious for the donation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa88fee817c54f6eb835fd8b9859650c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa88fee817c54f6eb835fd8b9859650c\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E The antiseptic language of Part 1 covers up and camouflages the fact that this is a foolish economic policy. But having heard the outstanding contribution made by my friend Ms Rich just a few seconds ago\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f870eb64b2534f30ba490472a4e3daeb\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Kiss of death for Katherine!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222700409b285f4b03b9bd945361c010ca\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I have decided that rather than yell and scream like the boy wonder from Otaki, who is busily talking himself out of a seat\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fbb061ef6b84f4385df988470577247\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How did this guy do? He got beaten up in Mana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb343666fcf34f1f8fd14c63a6bef12b\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I did not even seek the electorate vote. What is the definition of a marginal seat? It is a safe seat held by Darren Hughes. If we give him a little more time, he will not even be here. So my advice to the member for Otaki is sit still, wait for a few minutes, and listen to my appeal to\u2014I was going to say sweet reason, but in the case of the Minister of Finance it would be malignant reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe tax rates are a major reason why the economy is not as productive as it should be, why opportunities are constantly being lost to New Zealand, why 650 people per week move to Australia, and why New Zealand is slipping down the rank of OECD nations. Dr Cullen is a historian. I suggest that he reads\u2014I may even buy him a copy\u2014a very good Economist publication, The World in 2006. The first time I bought such a publication was in 1988. Then New Zealand, in terms of its standard of living, was ahead of Spain and Ireland, and was also miles ahead of Portugal. If we look at it today, obviously we see we are behind Ireland, very much behind Spain, and just marginally ahead of Portugal. One of the key reasons for that is New Zealand\u2019s mediocre economic performance, and a major reason for that mediocrity is the tax rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ETax is too high in this country. The rates in schedule 1 are impeding growth, destroying self-reliance, and forcing people to go overseas to Australia, where the standard of living is 20 percent better than ours. The rates reflect the Government\u2019s know-all approach to the governance of its citizens. It thinks it knows best, so it can take our money and spend it for us. It is not surprising that the Prime Minister\u2019s favourite model for the way to organise a country is the Scandinavian approach of bloated bureaucracy and high tax rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut as Mr English said, the Government should not just take our money from us. The same litany is repeated by Business New Zealand, the Council of Trade Unions, and Treasury, the Minister\u2019s own department. We are all singing the same song. Tax cuts are necessary to strengthen the economy, and to provide the incentives required to keep New Zealanders at home. We will shortly debate the student loan bribe introduced at the 11th hour by the Labour Party. The detail of that proposal can be debated then, but if we put money into tax cuts and divert it away from that suicidal scheme, that would be one obvious example that would answer the Minister\u2019s question as to how we in the National Party would fund tax cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhat surprises me, and the member for Otaki should listen very carefully to this, is that even the Australian Labor Party favours tax cuts in the Australian economy. The only question is as to the size, the scope, and so on. [Interruption] Why can the New Zealand Labour Party\u2014[Interruption] The member should be quiet. Why can the New Zealand Labour Party not listen to its labour cousins? The New Zealand Labour Party is stuck in the era of the first Labour Government, whereas the Australian Labor Party has moved on. Labour should get off its high horse, put aside its pathetic \u201Csoak the rich\u201D attitude to life, listen to what the independent commentators are saying, and move towards tax cuts. I strongly advise the Minister that that is the correct approach, and that even at this late hour in his ministerial career he can revise upward what the historians will say about him in 15 years\u2019 time. Rather than being seen as the man who presided over the locust economy, he could be seen as the man who, at the 11th hour, saw that his previous 6 years had been a foolhardy administration of the economy and decided he would do something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt is not just the National Party that says that. The M\u0101ori Party says the same thing. United Future secretly agrees, which is why it is such a shame that it entered into that Faustian bargain with the Labour Party. ACT agrees, and I am sure that New Zealand First secretly agrees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002262186563c4e941a3b5c8a9ccbbba29ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262186563c4e941a3b5c8a9ccbbba29ca\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I am opposed, and my party is opposed, to this bill. I want to concentrate on a few points\u2014why the bill is being dealt with under urgency, the \u201Cwet\u201D, the Working for Families package, student loans, and party votes\u2014and I have only 5 minutes! I also want to note who are supporting this bill and why they are doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWhy does this bill require urgency? I ask why we are in urgency right now when more cash is being siphoned from hard-working businesses that are now taking an extra 7 days to pay their bills\u201445 days as opposed to 35\u00BD days in the last quarter. There is a surplus that was charging towards $8 billion at last look. Why is the Government so keen to take a $2 billion hit on New Zealand\u2019s balance sheet, my balance sheet, and my family\u2019s balance sheet? The future of my country is about to take a hit of $2 billion because of the write-off of interest on student loans. This bill will be voted on under a party vote, but I suggest that all those members opposite intending to vote for it should examine their consciences. How on earth could New Zealand First members, United Future members, and, in particular, the M\u0101ori Party members vote for this bill? How can they play politics with the future of New Zealand by racing through this bill? The funds are not required right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would like to touch on the \u201Cwet\u201D\u2014the wine equalisation tax\u2014particularly as I represent the best wine-growing area in New Zealand. I want to express one point of caution with the wine equalisation tax\u2014that is, New Zealand is starting to accommodate Australian tax law. Of course this is a good measure for the winegrowers of New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229319a3a465b14b76859bcdc5755b6ad7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come to Part 1, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd37148266034519b077ab4caeafa1db\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise, Mr Chairperson. I will move on to the Working for Families package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206e0997769484d07a323cf8c9ae0b3ff\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, Part 1 only.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7503b0a896d46b1b7d34c62ee5f1101\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS\u003C/span\u003E: Income tax rates\u2014OK, sure. Income tax rates need to be cut, and they should be cut. Treasury has more than enough money to allow for the cuts. We have a crisis coming in New Zealand. Our exchange rate is fluctuating and it is about to plummet. Interest rates are going up every day. The official rates have gone up nine times in the last year. Mr Bollard recently suggested that we should have room for tax cuts because New Zealanders are essentially rational investors. Mr Cosgrove recently accused the National Party of treating taxpayers as silly. I suggest to Mr Cosgrove that they are rational investors, because Mr Bollard is increasing interest rates to stop people from borrowing, to help slow down the economy, which has been pumped along by the public sector. As we have seen in the recent Reserve Bank policy announcement, public expenditure, public GDP growth, is about to stay constant at about 5.5 percent for the next few years. Private growth is plummeting to negative in 2007-08. We need room for tax cuts. Locking New Zealand in at rates of 33 percent and 39 percent, with the difference between the income rates for trusts and personal income tax, and, of course, for corporate tax, needs to be readdressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI again suggest that members examine their consciences. Can they look taxpayers in the eye and say that this is good legislation and this is a good bill? Can they seriously look them in the eye? They should stop playing politics with New Zealand\u2019s future and take only as much as they need to run the country in the best and most proficient way, and let those who earn the funds in the first place look after their future and make their decisions. If they were brave enough and progressive enough to cut people\u2019s taxes and leave extra money in their pockets, they might be surprised to find that people start paying off their mortgages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E If these rates are stuck in stone, and if this bill does go through, New Zealand will become the land that time forgot, because all the decent earners are whipping across to Australia. We have the dinosaurs: the \u201CCullenosaurus\u201D taking taxes from all over the country, a front bench full of \u201CMPosauruses\u201D, and a party that promotes only \u201Cpolicyosauruses\u201D\u2014a party with a policy of tax structures, tax rates, and fiscal policies that are backward-looking, not forward-looking, and not investments in New Zealand\u2019s future; they are only constant references to the past. If we do not restructure, and if we do not examine and do what is fair with these tax rates, New Zealand will be stuck, at the very best, right where it is right now, and many other countries will race right past us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00225948ac095e6c43e386fa90d1cf652b57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225948ac095e6c43e386fa90d1cf652b57\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022636da96e33a144a8abf2630ca8d2387c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022636da96e33a144a8abf2630ca8d2387c\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E As someone who is a new member of Parliament, I was initially astounded, then quite simply appalled, at the inside information on how democracy works for this Government. Forgive me my naivety, but, the way I understand it, the House is in urgency this week so that the Government can quickly push through legislation that affects all New Zealanders\u2019 lives. It is pushing it through so quickly that there is no time for public submissions, so the public does not get to have a say in the direction that the country is heading. But I gather that that is the way that New Zealand works under a Labour - New Zealand First Government. It seems appalling that the Government works in that way. It is a busy time for everyone with Christmas looming, and the Government chooses to try to push through a very flawed piece of legislation that turns earners of the average wage into beneficiaries, and discriminates against all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EIt is about equality for all New Zealanders. It is about putting more money into the pockets of more New Zealanders. What the Government does not seem to understand is that it is the people\u2019s money. These people are working hard in their jobs and deserve to have across-the-board tax cuts, not this sort of flawed bill that gives something to minorities and individuals whom the Government deems to be worthy of its tax relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244d6583c2df346b1acb2f86d7d9a063a\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: For families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c33721fd37af4719bcd7d7ad9ef7a9af\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let us define families a little bit. Under a Labour Government, families seem to be defined as those with dependent children, and the Working for Families bill most certainly does that. What New Zealanders deserve, though, is across-the-board tax cuts. Under a National Government, those earning between $38,000 and $50,000 would have got tax relief\u2014down to 19 percent. Being taxed at 19 percent would have put more money back into the hands of everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EIt is about self-determination. Let New Zealanders decide how they want to spend their money. The arrogance and the hypocrisy of the Government in taking that money from them to spend it in the way that it deems best is purely that\u2014arrogance. What do people expect from a Government? They expect an education system that supports them, a health system that is available to them in their times of need, and retirement income that sees them living the sort of life that people in New Zealand so deserve. Instead, though, the Government takes that money off them, and does not utilise it properly. It does not identify that it is all New Zealanders who deserve to have a tax cut\u2014not just some individuals. It seems to me that people deserve some understanding. It is about them and their working lives\u2014working hard to have the means to get on and do what they determine to be best. Instead, we have a Labour Government that decides that it knows what is best for everyone, and just picks out individual people within the community, whether they be students or those with dependent children, whom it deems to be worthy of a tax cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI oppose, obviously, this piece of legislation. I find it absolutely astonishing that we are here under urgency, pushing through something that does not allow all New Zealanders to have a say in what exactly is happening. All New Zealanders deserve the right to say what happens to their money, but it seems that, instead, we have a Government that puts things through under the reign of urgency, and does not support everyone as it should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00229601b94588aa4770af0b00b3484dcf25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229601b94588aa4770af0b00b3484dcf25\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227292cd7179584cb6b576bd9171dfd686\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000307\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ad1b8cc1a64411da6d119e0f48f6690\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Income Tax Act 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d51552e94a1f47d6921dfd50c2ab2272\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d51552e94a1f47d6921dfd50c2ab2272\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I just want briefly to thank all parties for their granting of leave for this part of the bill to be included. It deals with the equalisation of wine tax. Everyone, of course, realised that the Australian tax came as a bit of a shock to the New Zealand wine industry when it was announced in the Australian Budget some time ago. We have an agreement with the Australian Government, and we need the legislative means in New Zealand to implement that agreement, which is incorporated in this part. Again I thank members for their support on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002201532b447a31478e80e4122b761d5526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201532b447a31478e80e4122b761d5526\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for that acknowledgment, which meant that he did not have to talk about the bit in this part that really matters, which is in clause 5: the change in the thresholds and abatement regimes for the child tax credit. There is an interesting history to that. I am sure I cannot recall every twist and turn, but clause 5 should really be called the \u201CMichael Cullen Back-down Clause\u201D. As the Committee will remember, Dr Cullen announced the Working for Families package under a certain set of fiscal conditions, and then he was forced at a later time\u2014not long after the Budget, actually, in 2005\u2014to announce a much more generous Working for Families package. The fiscal conditions had not changed dramatically or even significantly, but the political conditions actually had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis is how it went. Dr Cullen announced in his 2005 Budget what he believed to be clearly an important and a large-scale family tax package. It was greeted with derision\u2014there is really no other word for it\u2014around the country. I think the Dominion Post headlined it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022058a9c1183754375aff62843bdf37c99\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The original one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224726ae051f064473b7540fc826b95124\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014sorry, it was not the original one; it was after the 2005 Budget\u2014as \u201CIs that it?\u201D. I take the member\u2019s correction; Working for Families was announced the year before that. But in 2005, when there was an expectation that many more people would benefit from it, no one did. Instead, they were given the \u201Cchewing gum\u201D tax cut. So the provision in clause 5 of this bill came along after Dr Cullen had realised just how badly he had miscalculated in a political sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI would like Dr Cullen to explain, given that he had put so much emphasis on the surplus and the fiscal conditions, how he could suddenly afford a much more generous family tax package not long after the Budget that he could not afford at the time of the Budget. What had changed? I think if Dr Cullen explained that, we would see at least some of his fiscal argument for what it is. Dr Cullen has calculated that he can defend the surplus, which enables him to have enough expenditure to keep the Labour Party\u2019s various constituencies happy. He will probably be reluctant to say that he misjudged the Budget, that the whole Labour caucus and the Prime Minister came down on him pretty hard, and that in the run-up to the election he was therefore forced to increase the thresholds for abatement, forced to increase the child tax credit, as he has done here, and, just as important, forced to drop the 30c abatement rate down to a 20c abatement rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe simple reason for that is that a large chunk of middle New Zealand income earners with children were going to be faced with very substantial marginal tax rates that gave them the feeling\u2014and, I have to say, the reality\u2014that it was not worth trying to get ahead. That, of course, is one of the fundamental problems with regard to the way Dr Cullen thinks about these issues. He is a Minister of Finance who believes incentives do not matter, and who believes that people do not really respond to them when it does not suit him. Well, of course, they do respond to incentives. But if the marginal tax rate is high and the net gain from an extra hour of work is minimal, people will not go out and do that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDr Cullen may also like to explain to us just how he intends to maintain the complexity of the package Labour now has in place, of which this tax credit is part. When one looks at the accommodation supplement, the family tax system, and the fast-growing complexity of support for children in early childhood education, one sees it will be impossible for a Kiwi family to understand what benefit there is to it from doing an extra hour of work. There is now a plethora of different thresholds, different abatement rates, and accumulating marginal tax rates that are hard enough even for a bureaucrat to understand. A Ministry of Education bureaucrat will have real trouble understanding how the 20 hours\u2019 free support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002226aee191f98f4cbeb0d633a8e6847149\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226aee191f98f4cbeb0d633a8e6847149\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, on the last point, could I tell the member that he is factually wrong. We have not introduced any new complexity in the system. The only structural change that has been introduced since 1999, which comes into force in April next year, is to replace the child tax credit introduced by National with the in-work payment, which is actually significantly simpler because, for the vast majority of families, there is no relationship to family size. Whereas under the child tax credit, of course, it was more whether families had three children, or two children, or one. Whether families have one, two, or three children makes no difference to the size of the in-work payments. It is a great deal simpler. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe rest of the structure is exactly the same. The abatement levels, the thresholds, and the levels of payment are all that have changed. The levels of payment have been substantially increased, the thresholds have been raised, and the abatement rate has been lowered. That does not make it more complex at all. It means that more people are entitled to targeted tax assistance; it does not make the system more complex in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe choice to pay all these payments universally, as the member will know, is vastly expensive. We could not possibly afford to pay a fully universal tax rebate for children at the level of the family support payments\u2014that would run into some billions of dollars of additional expenditure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI come to the issue of why the change. I indicated immediately after the 2004 Budget, when we announced the Working for Families package\u2014in response to questions and in response to some issues raised, particularly by United Future\u2014that I would, at the earliest opportunity, address the issue of abatement rates and seek to lower the 30 percent single level of abatement rate that was being introduced as part of the Working for Families package. Again, we simplified it from two thresholds, to one single abatement rate and a single threshold. We actually simplified the system, compared with the system that National had in place during the 1990s. The Pre-election Fiscal Update indicated a growth in revenue that had not been anticipated at Budget time. That was exactly the amount that was therefore translated into the two things in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E Firstly, lifting the threshold from $27,500 to $35,000 means that for a lot of families on lower incomes there is no abatement at all. Secondly, lowering the abatement rate from 30 percent to 20 percent is a significant reduction, for quite a large number of families, of the effective marginal tax rate\u2014some 100,000 families having a lower effective marginal tax rate. Of course, 60,000 families have a higher marginal tax rate because they now qualify for family support targeted assistance, which they did not previously qualify for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis bill helps a lot of New Zealand families with children, particularly low to middle income families. We make no apology for that, at all. Fiscally, the result has come out at almost the same as the Budget night fiscal forecast, in terms of the operating surplus and the fiscal stimulus over the next 2 to 3 years. Beyond that, of course, it does represent some further fiscal loosening by about year 4 of the forecast period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIt is a simplified package, compared with the package we inherited. There is a single abatement rate, a single threshold, and for most families there is no longer a two-tier system, with the in-work payment not related to size of family. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EFinally, of course, in terms of childcare, the 20-hours-free policy will take a lot of people out of the targeted assistance. It will reduce, for a large number of families, the level of targeted assistance, which they were previously dependent upon. Also, as the member might be aware, we changed the accommodation supplement rules so that there is not a doubling-up of the abatement regimes around some aspects of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EDoes this work? Yes, it does. Look at the result. We have the highest labour-force participation rate in the developed world\u2014not just the lowest unemployment rate, but the highest labour-force participation rate. Have people stopped working because of the 39c rate? No, they have not. Has the economy stopped growing? No, it has not. Have the participation rates gone up? Yes, they have. Has growth been good? Yes, it has. The National Party argument is just wrong on the facts. It is not what has happened. Did the National Party stop working after 1999 because the top tax rate went up? Yes, it did. Did it affect those members\u2019 incomes? No, because they are on a salary. Did it affect the election outcome subsequently? Possibly, because they lost both the subsequent elections. They, in their own private little world, may have demonstrated their own theory, but the rest of New Zealand carried on working, carried on earning, carried on getting better off, and feels very good about the results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022078474a16f8044e6a5b273e6528a213e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022078474a16f8044e6a5b273e6528a213e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2, which implements the Government\u2019s expanded Working for Families package, deserves real scrutiny. This expanded Working for Families package will bring 60,000 more New Zealand families into a policy that I would call, instead of Working for Families, \u201CWorking for Government\u201D. Let me explain why I would call this package \u201CWorking for Government\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet us take the example of\u2014once this package is implemented\u2014people who are on the domestic purposes benefit but seeking to get off it through working more and more hours to earn more of their own keep and their families\u2019 keep. Once a person on the domestic purposes benefit with three children earns a wage or salary to the tune of $10,000 a year, from there to $25,000 a year he or she pays tax of 92.2c in the dollar on every extra $1 he or she earns. I will repeat that: 92.2c in the dollar. I see the Minister of Finance shaking his head. I am quoting Inland Revenue Department figures. I have the department\u2019s official tables right here. The tax rate for a single adult with children who is moving off the domestic purposes benefit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecbdb50be2444523a02d73f2311487b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: That was the case when you were the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204cea00eff4a44dfb8afa314b8260462\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: These are the latest figures, provided by the Inland Revenue Department in the last couple of weeks. Once this package is fully implemented, for income earned from $10,000 to $25,000, a woman with three children who is trying to earn a bit more money to help her family pays Dr Cullen 92.2c out of every $1. Why does he hate women with children so much? Why does he destroy their hope? Where is the hope? I see that little fellow over there, Darren Hughes, laughing. Does he understand how many extra hours of work that is for a woman on the minimum wage? How many extra hours of work a week will it take before she gets off that 92.2c tax rate? It will take 30 hours of extra work a week, at $10 an hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to know how the Minister justifies that. It is the same for a family trying to move off the unemployment benefit. In fact, a woman who is trying to move off the domestic purposes benefit does not keep more than half what she earns until her salary is over $100,000 a year. Then, finally, if that woman has three children, her marginal tax rate comes down to 39c in the dollar. Until that point she pays 60c or 54c, except for a wee window at $30,000 of income when she pays a 22c marginal tax rate. Apart from that, her marginal tax rate, for income from $10,000 onwards, is 92.2 percent for a $15,000 range of income. For 30 hours extra work a week, at $10 an hour, she keeps, out of every extra dollar she earns, 7.8c.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff85e7b373446838d75c174d08c0eb7\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member answer a question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fefacd944eca46a685250c7eddd5d23c\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I want Darren Hughes to tell this Committee why Labour thinks a woman with three children, two children, or one child should, when she is trying to earn more money for her family, give him and Dr Cullen 92.2c out of every extra dollar she earns, so that she keeps just 7.8c out of every dollar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda3257e2b4a49509d87f0b5f583afb2\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member need a tax cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c3264ebeba74d709278f2746a62bc2a\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I want Darren Hughes to explain why, if that woman is independent of the benefit system\u2014not on a benefit but on a similar income range\u2014and she earns an extra dollar, she has to give Dr Cullen the lot. Someone who is independent of the benefit system, under this Working for Families package\u2014and I say \u201CWorking for Government\u201D\u2014gives him the lot. In fact, 3,500 more families will come into this regime now, according to Dr Cullen\u2019s officials. One thousand families are caught in it this year; once Working for Families is fully implemented, 4,600 families that are independent of the benefit system will find that, for every extra dollar they earn in the income range from $10,000 to $20,000, they give Dr Cullen the lot. Their marginal tax rate will be 101.2 percent. If they earn another dollar, they will give all of it to Dr Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThese are our lowest-income families. I do not blame Dr Cullen for having established this regime\u2014actually, it was established when he was in Government in the late-1980s\u2014but it is time to do something about it, and this \u201CWorking for Government\u201D package should relieve those low-income people of that burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022004ae3efeb274e54963387e120573fd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022004ae3efeb274e54963387e120573fd5\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Dr Lockwood Smith goes on about this topic ad nauseam in the Finance and Expenditure Committee. If a householder had tuned into the radio while Dr Smith was giving his speech, he or she may well have wondered what was happening in the world, and may be seeking out Dr Cullen and wanting to put him in jail for stealing money from families. But, in fact, if any rational person chose to check the situation out, that person would find out that this has always been the case, and that, at the margins, these sorts of things always happen in a taxation system because there has to be a cut-off point. At that cut-off point, at the margin, there is always a problem of this nature. Dr Lockwood Smith knows that, but he does not tell people that. In saner moments, in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, he acknowledges that, and, furthermore, he acknowledges that he does not know what to do about it, either, as I am sure people would realise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that New Zealand First supports this part of the bill. The next question is why we support it. We do so because it helps people at the lower end of the economic tier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253cd310e615f476dbc2f9732ea8c84b8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How does paying 101.2 percent in tax help people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9f38b25718d4dd89bea52667b5ddbc6\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: It does help people. Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith knows that and he chooses not to say that, which is not a good thing for him to do. There may be a technical issue, but the question is whether the measure helps lower-income people. Yes, it does. Would we prefer to see these things have some universality, or should they be targeted? Of course, everyone would love these things to have universality, but they cannot. They must be targeted, and that is where this problem comes in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe have a clash of ideologies here. To argue ad infinitum that this measure hurts families, and that that is something that should not be gone into, is simply not sustainable, and I do not think the National Party should perpetuate that myth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00220ee34fd4b03f428b913b57329b3a8846\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ee34fd4b03f428b913b57329b3a8846\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very impressive speech from Lockwood Smith, our member from Rodney, who gave a very impressive outline. It was followed by a speech from a member of New Zealand First, who just came in behind, saying the Government spiel. It was quite interesting to see what New Zealand First was like during the campaign. It was quite a different story. Now that it is in Government it is backing Labour to the hilt. I say to Doug Woolerton that it is amazing how things have changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI think taxation is the key thing, because that was Dr Cullen\u2019s biggest weakness during the election campaign. National was given a chance thanks to Dr Cullen\u2019s Budget, which just did not deliver on taxation. Everybody in the country had built up expectations that there would be tax cuts, and they did not come. People out there wanted tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis policy sends three signals to people. First, it sends the signal that for people on things like the unemployment benefit there is not much incentive to go to work. Secondly, the policy shows that if people are on the Working for Families package, there is no incentive to do overtime, or anything like that, because they will lose some of their hard-earned money. Thirdly, the policy means that people will be reluctant to take promotions and pay rises, and reluctant to get that education and do that training in order to get better incomes and jobs. Those are the wrong signals, but they are the signals that this Government intends to send to hard-working New Zealanders through this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo National members cannot support this bill. It sends the wrong signals and provides the wrong incentives to hard-working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022fab2b151599141e6bae5ad879989399b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fab2b151599141e6bae5ad879989399b\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about the Working for Families part of the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill, and I admit to having some real problems with it. My predominant concern is that it is Labour\u2019s interpretation of what it means to be a family. How does the New Zealand public feel about the description of \u201Cworking families\u201D that Labour has termed under this bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe bill states that tax relief will be delivered to working families via enhancements to the Working for Families package. Labour has stated that it has targeted tax relief to 160,000 working families. But they can be called families only if they have dependent children of a certain age and if they fit certain criteria. And yes, those criteria are set by the Labour Government, which defines what \u201Cfamily\u201D means and decides who gets to have the targeted tax relief. In order to receive this benefit, one needs to have dependent children. That is an insult to all working people without dependent children. What about young people who are trying to save in order to establish themselves financially before establishing a family? What about single people without children? What about those whose children have grown up and who are now saving for their retirement? All working New Zealanders deserve to have tax relief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELet us look at an example of how discriminatory this bill is. The example is that of an average company in Auckland, where there is a small team of employees who do pretty much the same job and produce the same level of outputs and results for that company, but who have very different personal circumstances. One employee has two children aged 7 and 10, and both she and her husband are on average incomes. One employee has been working for 30 years and has three adult children. That couple has had the good times and the struggles, and is now at the stage of saving for retirement. The other employee is in a same-sex relationship, has never had children, and intends to never have children. Who is being discriminated against? This Government, which purports to ensure that there is equality and spouts on about equality for all, is blatantly discriminating against those who do not have dependent children. That is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E This tax relief makes beneficiaries out of normal, everyday working New Zealanders who are trying to get ahead and just want to be given a fair deal. It blatantly ignores those without dependent children who are working equally hard and just want to get ahead. We received many letters during the campaign period from people who supported our across-the-board tax cuts. Those people stated they would sit next to someone in their working environment who would be doing the same job, with the same effort, and through the Working for Families targeted tax relief each person would receive extremely different levels of income in his or her pocket. That is what targeted relief does. It discriminates against those without dependent children. It is not fair and not equal. Universal tax cuts across the board are the only way to support the New Zealand public and incentivise people to get ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThis bitsy legislation, which caters only to a minority of New Zealanders, is simply not fair. The only way to deal with people fairly is by lowering taxes across the board. For example, a tax rate of 19 percent for people who earn between $38,000 and $50,000 would incentivise those people to work harder and move ahead, and would put more money into their pockets, so that they could choose how to spend it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4a8e4411a8e4ea08f7427424c07fd01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4a8e4411a8e4ea08f7427424c07fd01\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, for earlier guidance\u2014I note that the wine equalisation tax provisions that I mentioned are in Part 2, as opposed to Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EFirst of all, as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee I thank the committee for its work and note the almost unanimous support its members gave to the wine equalisation tax provisions. They put New Zealand growers into pretty much the same position as Australian growers\u2014essentially, they bring Australian tax law into New Zealand. I raise a caution there. I wonder whether, in fact, that is the thin edge of a wedge, because the Australianisation of all things New Zealand\u2014regulation, law, and statute\u2014is something that I think Parliament needs to address in the coming years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EOne of the great things about the bill is that it transfers all risk, foreign exchange, cash flow, and interest rates, etc., to the Australian distributor or importer of New Zealand wine. Being the MP for one of New Zealand\u2019s greatest wine-producing regions, I am very happy to support that area, and I am sure that the various ratepayers of Napier have done a good job. I also note that the change has come about after pressure from our wine industry. Politicians from the National Party forced a change. Well done, I say. Sadly, I note that New Zealand apples are still not allowed into Australia, even though we have made just as much noise on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI move to the Working for Families package. During the election campaign somebody said that the package was a form of tax relief. Well, goodness gracious, who does that tax relief come from? It comes from those who have imposed too much tax in the first instance. As I keep saying, the Government should not take any more than it needs. Essentially, the Working for Families package is a way of controlling the net wage of New Zealanders, regardless of what their gross income is. There is no clearer evidence of that than the effect of some of the rebates, which have a marginal tax rate of 102 percent. When a person earns $1, Dr Cullen receives $1.02. Why would one bother? Why would a person get out of bed to try to get ahead? I would like someone to tell me how that will affect aspirations to break out of the welfare cycle and dependency of so many families\u2014particularly M\u0101ori families, whose income in the Hawke\u2019s Bay is $3,000 per annum less than non-M\u0101ori households. How will a marginal tax rate of 102 percent help those families to break out? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ESo many members get up in this Chamber and rave on about breaking the dependency cycle, etc., etc. We should be brave, be staunch, and take a stand. Pita Sharples also noted that point the other day, but he still reluctantly gave his party\u2019s support to this bill. That is not good enough. It is a trade-off that sacrifices the future, the incentives, and the aspirations of so many New Zealanders for the sake of small-time political gain. That is why so many politicians have such a bad name. Who else supports this bill? I note that Mr Woolerton\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d2b5d3c22104e319abc50c3feb4c063\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: As part of the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cf08a7c3af47c785ed6164a43970b5\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014as part of the Government, said in response to my good colleague Lockwood Smith\u2019s speech that this has always been the case. Well, yes. Is that a reason not to challenge it? Is that a reason not to address it? If you have always worn the same Y-fronts, then get into some briefs. You must challenge the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211364eda7dfe4a0b84b3eb06fc0c77e0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You must not bring the Chairperson into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cda07de10d8470eb2b760375e1ce1db\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I move back to Working for Families. An earlier speaker, in relation to the Working for Families provisions, supported this bill because, that member said, it would help people at the lower end. Why not then give those people a million bucks? This bill will not help the people at the lower end of the spectrum. It will help their net income in the short term, but it will cap their future and lock them into exactly where they are right now. It sends a message to them not to bother to get out of bed\u2014not to even try to break out of the cycle. I do not understand how so many members of this Parliament can give rhetoric about breaking out of the dependency cycle, etc., and can go forth and vote for this bill. I really do not understand how they can look themselves in the eye. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022682e27b47c7646d6a549500ad0c411c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022682e27b47c7646d6a549500ad0c411c3\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022861016cc7f324a168c0c27f2cb178202\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022861016cc7f324a168c0c27f2cb178202\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E There are two issues in Part 2. I will deal briefly with the proposals in relation to the wine industry, then turn my mind to the Working for Families package, which is, of course, another example of economic insanity. First of all, let us look at the Australian wine producer rebate. I basically endorse what my friend the member for Tukituki said. It is a scheme that is probably well overdue. New Zealand can be very proud of its wine industry. One can think back to the earliest days in, for example, Marlborough, now represented by Mr King, the MP for Kaikoura. From a very low base in 1973, the New Zealand wine industry has built up magnificently. The industry exports products to some of the finest destinations in the world, and New Zealand can be very proud of what has been done. People like Peter Hubscher, who did such a great job to build up Montana Wines, and George Fistonich, who built up Villa Maria, are great New Zealanders who deserve all the support they can get. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI endorse, however, the comments made by the member for Tukituki about the gradual integration of New Zealand into the Australian regulatory regime. I wonder whether that sort of thing should be done in an episodic way or whether we need to have a general national discussion about it. We have in this bill the integration of the New Zealand tax regime into the Australian tax regime, and I wonder whether it is a foretaste of what is to come with other statutes, such as, for example, the Securities Act and the Commerce Act. But that can wait for another debate. With that caveat, I endorse what the member for Tukituki said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs for the Working for Families package, much has been said before, particularly by Ms Bennett. It is a system that destroys incentives and, worse than that, creates a super-class of beneficiaries that, in the worst possible way, creates middle-class welfare. I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Pete Hodgson, whether he is aware of any other country in the Western World where citizens can be earning over $100,000 yet still be on some form of welfare. It is simply an absurd way to organise an economic system. That, coupled with the student loan scheme and the holding of tax rates at the current level, is really very distortionary and very harmful to the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EMs Bennett raised a number of very important matters, and I hope the Minister will comment on them\u2014not simply address them, as he does when purporting to answer questions, but actually get down to the nitty-gritty, because these are very important points. I would like him\u2014[Interruption] I would like the member for Otaki for once in his life to be quiet. I would also like the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122787635468486eaceb1c068501c37a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s being very sensitive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d08e3eea8c4fff952776ab9a9070a9\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not a sensitive member; I am just a member who has some very cogent and compelling points to make, and who wants the member for Otaki to do something in his life that he has probably never done before\u2014that is, to learn something. If the member for Dunedin South were here, I would ask him to do something with one of his tennis balls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe essential point that I want the Minister to address is the unfairness of this scheme for single people. What is his answer to that unfairness? I do not want some kind of half-baked, half-pie call that it is good for the country in general, but I ask what it does for single people. What does it do for couples who do not have a child\u2014perhaps because they cannot? What does it do for couples with one child? This is discriminatory legislation; it is unfair to large sections of New Zealanders\u2014and for other New Zealanders it is legislation that enslaves them in middle-class welfare. So let us try to have an answer that is not parroting platitudes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220370a86cdf304900abf52cca0c696e9b\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u0027Connor\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t believe that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba9c6b42d4164315b8c4fc00f947ebda\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do believe that the member for West Coast - Tasman is a sensible person from a sensible family, and I am sure that he believes the same thing. The legislation destroys incentives, and I would really like the Minister to address, in a fairly rational way, the points we have been raising, because they are very important points. Unless we get it right, we will inhibit growth in this country and cause fundamental damage to the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo I appeal to the Labour Government to take a good hard look at this, and try to get away from the point where it is Dr Cullen contra mundum because Dr Cullen knows best. The Government should answer the questions that Ms Bennett has asked, through the Chair, of the Minister, look at the essential unfairness that happens when a superclass of beneficiaries is created that covers some sections of the community but not others, and ask what it does for single people. The Government should answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00227c11599577f04f25a1744698cc0517b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c11599577f04f25a1744698cc0517b5\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226a80198218504588b6463368f00f2583\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000371\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 7 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f3bffd650fd843039325e7b943c111fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a341836d705c4556a7ffebbebc077582\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db66880b6e3a4df09306d6c8aacca25a\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Student Loan Scheme Act 1992\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0f8c032be5541bfabb51ae147373aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0f8c032be5541bfabb51ae147373aa3\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could I seek your clarification as to where the Committee has got to, because, as I heard your call\u2014and I may have heard it incorrectly\u2014Supplementary Order Paper 7 was just passed as part of Part 2, but according to the explanatory note most of the changes proposed by that Supplementary Order Paper concern Part 3. So I wonder whether your question concerned those parts of it relating to Part 2, or whether it concerned the entire Supplementary Order Paper 7. Forgive me if I misheard you, but much of that Supplementary Order Paper appears, according to the paper itself, to relate to Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8c3f49c61a4ff29cde9396b3a41769\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, Dr Smith, the Minister\u2019s amendments on the Supplementary Order Paper apply to clause 4B of Part 2. In terms of Part 3, the Supplementary Order Paper applies to clause 12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00228ac29cd38cac49288ab89526358c6417\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ac29cd38cac49288ab89526358c6417\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. My point of order was to ask whether we had passed all of Supplementary Order Paper 7. I may have misheard; I thought it was the whole of Supplementary Order Paper 7 that we voted on just then. Most of the changes proposed by that Supplementary Order Paper concern Part 3, which we have not yet debated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b6100e54a8c4a7ba78ba38457749ed6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding, Dr Smith, is that we have actually passed only those amendments related to Part 2. Because Part 2 was the main part being debated, the amendments voted on related to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022015e6eb261b544099df9c14b13e72d82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022015e6eb261b544099df9c14b13e72d82\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I thought I did hear your question, but I do not recollect hearing you say those parts of Supplementary Order Paper 7 relating to Part 2. But I may have misheard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022326ece2f15a141c79c0507334d970134\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, you did not mishear. That is standard practice as to how it is actually done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00228c4ff45ff3804636bfb59bb264a731b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c4ff45ff3804636bfb59bb264a731b8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Does that mean we will pass another question when we have debated Part 3, in order to pass the rest of those amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d5bdabd9c64463185983eb6c91f0414\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It does, and it will relate purely to Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad0b1f179e2d4850ae0e28fce8460190\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad0b1f179e2d4850ae0e28fce8460190\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E This part of the bill relates to student loans. As Dr Cullen said to the vice-chancellors when he met them last week, if it had not been for this promise, they would have had a National Minister of Education sitting in front of them. He may well be right, but of course the electoral success of the promise of interest-free student loans does not guarantee that it is sensible policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn particular, one issue we have struggled with is to understand the costings. The Minister in the chair, Pete Hodgson, being a key Cabinet Minister, may be able to explain them to us. Can he explain what happened after the initial Treasury costing, which was that the effect on the operating balance would be $302 million in 2008-09, with a rising profile after that? How does he reconcile that with the most recent costing published by Treasury, which states that it will now cost $202 million with a flat profile over time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to the Minister\u2019s explanation of that difference, because, as he will recall, the costing of this policy was controversial. It was controversial because, in the first place, the Government would not release it, and, in the second place, estimates made by private sector bankers were very large and the Government disputed them. Then, in the last week of the election, the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the costings\u2014the $302 million I have referred to\u2014and, since the election, there has been a greatly reduced costing of $202 million. I suspect that part of the difference is that the Government will have in the Pre-election Fiscal and Economic Update a large, one-off write-off to the extent of a couple of billion dollars, because the Government has to look at the fair value of the loans with interest, as they are on the books, and compare that value with the fair value of the loans without interest. The Government will, no doubt, take that hit upfront. I would be interested if the Minister could enlighten us as to whether that will be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat move is, of course, politically very attractive, because the Government has now managed to make an expensive policy with very bad incentives look like a cheap policy with incentives that do not matter. That is hidden by the complexity of the accounting around how the Government handles a diminution in the valuation of the loan portfolio at the same time as it accounts for interest that it would not have received, anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI shall use an example of some of the effects that just cannot be accounted for in the costings. The parents of a student going off to university, under the existing regime with interest, would have been looking to support that student at university. That support does not appear yet, because the student has not gone to university yet. But because the loans now are interest-free, what will happen is parents will tell their children who intend to study that they will not support them, and that they must borrow the money instead. That is probably the effect that will have the single biggest impact on the cost of this policy. The Government denies any of those incentive effects, but what sense does it make to parents to fund their children on overdraft interest rates when those children can fund themselves on a zero interest rate? It makes no sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Government defends the policy by saying that students will not be so smart as to borrow the money then put it on deposit somewhere, because they will need it while they study. Actually, many students will, but probably the larger effect will be the substitution effect\u2014that is, substituting interest-free student loans for what would otherwise be private support. I would like the Minister to explain why the Government thinks none of that matters, because, of course, it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo those are some questions for the Minister. I want him to explain the difference in the two costings that Treasury gave us, because there is a difference of 35 percent\u2014$300 million cut down to $200 million\u2014and to explain just how the Government will account for the impact of the policy on the operating balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdcfa70a371840ac8d09df2ade7b9742\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdcfa70a371840ac8d09df2ade7b9742\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E As I follow on from my learned colleague Bill English, I think he raised a very important point. It seems that Labour does not understand, or does not want to believe, that some New Zealanders will change their behaviour as a result of this policy. Labour seems to believe that students and their parents will not look at the changes in this scheme, and that students will not take out more money now that the loans are to become totally interest-free. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Pete Hodgson, that parents with half a brain will now tell their children who are approaching university age to take out the loans they have available to them to the maximum, and that if they are able to put whatever funding they have into an interest-bearing account, they will find themselves better off. Already I have spoken to some students who have worked out that if they do that and put their money into either a bank account or some kind of investment, be it their own student flat or another kind of investment that will earn them an income, they will be better off at the end of their degrees and in the years to come. I think it is quite naive to suggest that Kiwis will not change their behaviour. Of course they will. Where money is free and there is no cost associated with taking out a loan, anybody who has other financial loans will maximise the amount they have interest-free and use that to offset other loans that they have elsewhere, or will put money into an account where they can earn income. That is just common sense. It is less than economics 101; kids learn that sort of thing in maths at secondary school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things that does concern me, though, is the sort of incentive system that this policy continues to put in place in this country. It tells those parents who want to assist their own kids that they will be worse off and that there is now a disincentive to do that. As Bill English has pointed out, we will now see some of that private support crowded out by the Government\u2019s becoming involved and saying that it knows best and that this system is being put in place to support students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to hear Dr Cullen talk about tax bribes. Well, what is this policy? It was the greatest bribe of the last election. Although Labour pretended that the costings had been done, it did not have a blind clue as to what the actual cost of this policy would be. The Prime Minister stood in the Chamber and said that Treasury had not done a costing because it did not cost Labour Party policy. We found out that that was not correct; Treasury had done the maths on it, and the maths did not look great. If Labour was not trying to be deceitful, why did it take the Ombudsman\u2019s decision that it was in the public interest for the information to be released, and that it had to be released prior to the election, before it was released and we could see the workings had been done? Once those workings were released, it became quite clear that the political rhetoric leading up to the election and the workings on the policy that had been done showed quite different stories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe interest-free student loan policy was quite clearly one of the biggest election bribes. In this case\u2014sadly\u2014it worked for Labour, but I think what has been done is a great disservice for this country. Not only will we crowd out private family support for students as they undertake their tertiary study, but we will now move to a situation whereby we actually force money on to young people and make them more indebted at the very beginning of their lives. One of the things that strikes me when I talk to students who have left university and gone on to work is that they did not understand what they were letting themselves in for when they cranked up their loans to buy a myriad of things. Money, particularly when it is interest-free, is easy to take on, and it is not until some years later that students fully understand that ultimately the money does have to be paid back. We will see a huge increase in the number of loans taken out by students and a huge decrease in repayments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00227da96407ca154358a0e587029c6138c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227da96407ca154358a0e587029c6138c6\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On the previous part, the member Katherine Rich was accusing me of going back 30 years into the dim past of the National Party and all the rest of it\u2014years that National Party members would sooner forget, I might tell people\u2014but I am going to do it again. I remember saying to one Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, when he brought in the student loan scheme, that it would be bad for the young people of New Zealand because it would get them into the business of borrowing money for education, and we believed, and all good, sensible people of New Zealand believed, they should work for it, and the parts they did not work for should be put up by the State. Some people still hold to that policy. New Zealand First believes there should be universality when it comes to living allowances. We have moved as far as that. But we accept that the market should reign when it comes to what courses students take, and we accept that that will largely be judged by the person on the fact that they will earn more income when they leave university.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EHowever, we had a situation at the last election, and I agree with Dr Cullen: I believe that this policy won the Labour Party the election. But National members do not say too much about the fact that the only thing that happened was they were trumped on this. They said: \u201CWe are going to lower the tax on student loans, and we are wonderful people.\u201D They said nothing about how they could afford it on top of tax cuts. They said nothing about any of that. On top of tax cuts for everybody, they promised a reduction in the interest on student loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fe028c234ba4ef79998e01df96f3ca6\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u0027Connor\u003C/span\u003E: They weren\u2019t going to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dc653f0e9904051a1618d81f7559399\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Damien O\u2019Connor is close to the action and he tells me they were not going to do it. I suspect he is probably right. I was taking the National Party at face value, which I probably should learn not to do. I am naive and innocent. Even as I approach my more interesting years, I am still naive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party came in and said there would be no interest on student loans, and it won the election. Now we have a situation where National is saying that the world is going to be turned on its head because students are actually going to do what the Government said they should do and borrow for their education. Duh! I think Labour probably understands that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EBut it is a matter of wanting better education for our young people\u2014and we all in this Chamber want that, I hope. We want a better-educated workforce and we want New Zealand to be the most enlightened, best-educated country in the world. New Zealand First is supporting the bill, which incorporates this change to the regime of taxing students, because we uphold the principle of wanting better education for everybody in this country. We would do it in a slightly different way. We would do it in a different way from what the National Party proposed, but we would not be dogs in the manger and say that it should not happen, because we want our young people to succeed. We want a country where we can hold our heads up high and say: \u201CWe are the best in the world.\u201D I remember my colleague Peter Brown, who is sitting beside me at this point, saying to me that he came to this country in the 1960s because he believed it to be an enlightened country. He believed that his children could be brought up better here, have a better future, and all of those things. He supports this bill because it is fulfilling those things that he came to this country for, and New Zealand First is proud to support him in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00228d15fdf0e6754ee08a7611e9f7afb114\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d15fdf0e6754ee08a7611e9f7afb114\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E On listening this afternoon to Mr Woolerton, the former president of New Zealand First, one realises how interwoven New Zealand First has become in the Clark-Peters Labour Government. New Zealand First is now totally in the pocket of Labour, and I guess that is kind of sad for New Zealand, in some ways. But Mr Woolerton was quite right. He said one thing I do agree with: I did design the student loan scheme, as Minister of Education, in 1991. It achieved a great deal for New Zealand, by taking it from the bottom of the OECD, in terms of tertiary participation, to the top. In just 6 years we went from the bottom to the top. That was a very carefully designed student loan scheme, with appropriate write-off provisions to make sure that no loan could escalate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe are now seeing that carefully designed student loan scheme being destroyed in an election promise that, I have to say, was the most breathtaking I have seen in all my time in this place. It was breathtaking for several reasons. One is that when Labour made that election bribe, it had no idea of how much it would cost. It had no idea of the impact on the Crown balance sheet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273923924dbaa43f09dddca90a52ed603\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213eaac2dcd954cb8a1239720316ceacc\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Darren Hughes says that that is wrong. On 23 November I asked the officials at the select committee for the full costs to the balance sheet of the policies in this bill. Their answer was that they did not know. That was from Treasury and Inland Revenue Department officials on 23 November, well after the election. I asked the officials the full costs to the balance sheet of the polices in this bill. Their answer was that they did not know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b0f7eb552d49e28fc7c14549be9a55\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It must be a mistake in the member\u2019s notes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a57b4f3bef43af8650e6d7dde49274\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: They told us they did not know, so I say to Mr Hughes he should not mislead this Committee by claiming that Labour knew the cost of this policy prior to the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes should remember that Helen Clark, the Prime Minister, told Parliament that Treasury had not costed the policy. She sat in the seat in front of the junior Government whip and told this Parliament a lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b68a34ee8db47b28881562c4ff6a93a\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225da967b1092f468bb357f1bb36522855\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de9aaa82ce674f7fa6762198eec304e5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has been in Parliament for a long time. He knows that he cannot use the word he used. I ask him to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd34afe30c284f749502e5c5c799ff46\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I am not sure how to describe what the Prime Minister said. She told this Parliament that Treasury had not costed it, point-blank. That proved not to be correct, because we revealed only a couple of weeks later that Treasury had costed it. Mind you, when we consider she is someone who signed paintings that she did not paint, someone who knifed a former police commissioner in the back to the media and denied it, and someone who claimed she had no idea how fast she was being driven across half of the South Island, I guess we should not be surprised at that. The integrity level of the leader of the Labour Party, New Zealand\u2019s Prime Minister, is such that she would tell this Parliament that Treasury had not costed Part 3, when Treasury had costed it and there was no way Helen Clark could not have known that. She must have known that when she stood up from her seat, in front of Darren Hughes, and told this Parliament point-blank that Treasury had not costed it, when Treasury had. We should not be surprised that a Labour Party led by someone with as little integrity as Helen Clark has members like David Benson-Pope, who has no integrity whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to come back to Part 3, because this part was breathtaking for these reasons. Not only does it involve a massive hit to the Crown balance sheet but it is also a massive con job. Students who voted for Labour as a consequence of this policy thought they would get cash in their hands. In fact, students will see nothing out of this provision until, through the taxation system, they have paid back their entire student loan, and then through the taxation system they will not have to pay any interest. Students were conned. They did not realise that. When I have talked to students since the election, they have asked me what I meant when I explained that. They were conned. There has been a massive hit to the Crown balance sheet, and Labour has conned thousands of students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022c81e727dfe3c4509a484a401e153bb78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c81e727dfe3c4509a484a401e153bb78\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E Unless one is a student and a scholar of ancient political history, one would not know that that was Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith. From the way he was describing Part 3, he had never been in a Government before. He used words like \u201Cbreathtaking promise\u201D, a \u201Ccon job\u201D, and said that people had to remember what had been promised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E I wondered whether that could be the same man who went up and down New Zealand to different university campuses, signing pledges promising that if student fees were not abolished, he would resign. \u201CHonest Lockwood Smith\u201D went up and down the country, a decade and a half ago, saying that. We have the documentation, which has been tabled in the Parliament of New Zealand, showing that Lockwood Smith went around the place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225905dda23124cedad54764d23b44c08\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am not allowed to say that member is lying. I have, through previous points of order and a personal explanation, explained to people like Darren Hughes, who do not know the facts and the truth, that the only pledges I signed promised to abolish Labour\u2019s Government-imposed $1,250 student fee. I never ever signed a pledge that there would be no fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9aeff965bfa4894b3401612b3fd54d7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a debating point and the member can take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3a3c4413cb24600a51b504837d86bd7\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. When a member makes a personal explanation, as I have in the past about that issue, it is no longer a debating point. The Committee must take my word for it, and I can prove it because I have copies of those pledges. It is not a debating point. I would appreciate your correcting that ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255462b82d3124378b9770cbffb1be29e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has taken exception under Standing Order 116, \u201CPersonal reflections\u201D. The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b14a8e6857bf40beaa4071b125123a02\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to withdraw. What we now know is that Lockwood Smith went around the country talking to angry crowds of students, saying: \u201CI will abolish Labour\u2019s tertiary fee of $1,250. That\u2019s the good news; the bad news is that I\u2019ve got a $3,000 Tory fee on the way. I\u2019m \u2018Honest Lockwood Smith\u2019. I\u2019ll resign unless I can make sure your fees are more than $1,200.\u201D What a farce! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe last National Party member who should have been allowed on his feet in this debate this afternoon is a relic from the 1990s like Lockwood Smith. Most Ministers of Education in New Zealand visit campuses; that is part of the job. That man, when he arrives on a campus, has police protection. When he leaves, he does not leave by the door\u2014oh no, he is far too important. He leaves by the bathroom window! So loved were his policies, so respected was his integrity, so visionary was his approach to the student loan scheme that he left via a toilet window. So we will not hear any more from Lockwood Smith. I want the National Party to continue to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abec556a20cd4d31a35e0c91689b17ff\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. That junior Labour member should know that a member cannot tell lies to this Parliament. What he is telling the Parliament are simply lies. I have never ever left a university campus by the bathroom window, or any other window.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7ce778bf5b4c2684b77e034e275694\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just point the member\u2014[Interruption] Members know that when a point of order is on the floor there is to be no sound whatsoever. That is disorderly conduct. I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/4: \u201CAs long as the member who made a personal statement remains a member of the House, the member\u2019s personal explanation may not be debated or otherwise challenged, even where it was given in a previous Parliament.\u201D\u2014Mr Speaker Hunt, 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215e370d963f140aabaafce7645b99d4b\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Does that mean that the member has made a personal explanation about what type of window he did climb out when he was being harassed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e210588723c341a2b9384207d451986b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208022e91a2c94ff6983ab048862fe28f\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeking clarification. Footage on the television news showed that former Minister of Education having to climb out a window away from students, whom he could not explain his policies to. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb2d5748081f4e3eabbc2d58224e3a48\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will not trifle with the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba340b6563b242f99e14b4fbb4325089\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: This policy is a fantastic policy. Part 3 is good Labour policy, and I am delighted the National Party keeps opposing it. I was very interested to hear Katherine Rich confess that she thought the Labour Party might have clinched the election on the basis of that policy. The bitterness in her voice was clear, because, as one of the National Party\u2019s centrists, she knows that this is a good policy. The problem for National members is that they are obsessed about the transitional provisions, obsessed about what might happen between now and April. The point they keep missing is that all that this policy says is that students have to pay back what they borrow from the Crown. Rather than paying that back with interest, we are asking students simply to pay back their student loans\u2014the amount they borrowed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EBut National members are saying that students will refuse to pay it back. What they do not know, because so few of them had student loans, is that people repay the loan via the Inland Revenue Department system, through PAYE, whereby 10 percent of every dollar earned over a certain amount is deducted from source. There is no choice in this; it is part of one\u2019s taxation requirements. Therefore, when people apply for things like a mortgage, hire purchase, or to buy a new car and, they have to list all their debts, they have to include their student loan. So that has an impact on their ability to borrow in the market place, which, supposedly, is an area the National Party knows a lot about. So it is in a student\u2019s interest to retire that debt as quickly as possible, and the fastest way to do that is to pay back only the amount borrowed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThis is good, sensible Labour policy and I hope National keeps opposing it. National is going down the drain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002231269f2599e0425fa2f51ce46ec3dd78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231269f2599e0425fa2f51ce46ec3dd78\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E What a juvenile contribution from the member for Otaki! Mind you, when he reaches puberty he will be devastating!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI want to concentrate, rather than on personalities, on the issues. Part 3 introduces a scheme that is unworkable and unprincipled. It is very much unprincipled. It was not carefully thought out, as Mr English said, nor was it reached as a result of policy discussion within the Labour Party, nor was it costed by reputable economists. It was a rushed response to poll results indicating the election was slipping away from the Labour Party. It was a hastily devised bribe, whose principal architect, the member for Hutt South, may have some skills when it comes to 5-minute horizons but cannot think long term. And one does not have to be someone who thinks only medium term to know that before the 3-year period is out this bill will be back before the House for further amendments. It was the worst sort of policy, devised in the heat of the campaign, and Treasury would say \u201Camen\u201D to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point\u2014and I would really like the Minister in the chair, the member for Dunedin North, to wake from his slumber and answer this hypothetical example\u2014is that this policy discriminates against tradespeople. What about the tradesman who wants to set up business as, say, a plumber or an electrician? He or she has to go to the bank to obtain appropriate loan finance, and has to pay that loan back with interest. That is, quite frankly, as it should be. Any person setting out to build a business who takes out a loan, in the expectation that over 20 or 30 years he or she is going to make a lot of money, should pay back that loan with interest at commercial terms. Compare that with a student\u2014say, one in the position of the member for Otaki\u2014who leaves secondary school at the age of 17 or 18, and, not knowing what he or she wants to do, goes to university to study some useless subject like peace studies, the sort of subject that equips one well for a career in the Labour Party; that person can obtain an interest-free loan, study that politically correct rubbish\u2014which my friend the member for North Shore is going to dispose of\u2014then drift off into the workforce. Of the two hypotheticals I have mentioned, who actually contributes to the New Zealand economy? Obviously it is the electrician or the plumber. These are the people who grow the economy, these are the people who provide useful services, but there is nothing for them in this scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EQuite apart from discriminating against tradespeople setting out to build their businesses, this legislation also discriminates against hard-working families who send their children to universities. The parents are the ones who should be obtaining tax relief. They are the ones who have nurtured their children, raised them, and got them to the point where they can go to university and, provided that they study the right subjects, get ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe third point I wish to make is that the legislation is unreal. The Deputy Prime Minister said that one aim of the policy was to encourage skilled New Zealanders to invest their skills in the New Zealand economy, but it will not achieve that end. New Zealanders will invariably travel overseas for their OE, and very little can be done about that, and that has been the case for years. One hopes that young people will come back to New Zealand to invest in their country, but that is no reason to give them interest-free loans. They will come back if they know they can get ahead in this country, and that means our ensuring that, for example, taxes are not as punitive as they are now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI remember well the legal services market, having practised in the law for 25 years; the pattern was that lawyers would go overseas, spend a few years in a large law firm, and come back to New Zealand. The reality is that because of the state of the New Zealand economy, because of punitive taxation, they now go overseas at the commencement of their career, to Australia more likely than not, or to England, and they never come home. Our not getting the tax rates right will keep New Zealand students overseas. One need mention only the legal services market, but it applies to medical students, accountants, engineers, and other graduates of our universities. So students will not necessarily be attracted by this scheme to stay in New Zealand. They will be attracted back to New Zealand only if\u2014[Interruption] I do wish the member for Otaki would listen. They will come back to New Zealand only if they can contribute to an economy that has low taxes. So my advice to the member for Otaki is to vote against this part, because New Zealanders will not come back if they are going to be saddled with this insane scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00222fb92ef8d88a486bb21ad50a001ce33a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fb92ef8d88a486bb21ad50a001ce33a\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to rise to support Part 3, which deals with the amendments to the student loan scheme. Are not all the arguments we have heard very familiar? As I sit here listening to National Party members rise to their feet and say that this measure will mean doom and gloom for the country, that young people will be ripping off Treasury to the tune of billions and billions of dollars, and that it will send us right down the gurgler, I am thinking: where have I heard all this before? I heard all this before when in 1999 Labour said it would abolish interest on student loans while students were studying. We heard all this before, and did students act like the National Party members would? Did parents tell their children to go out and rort the scheme, like all the National Party members would tell their children? No they did not. It is nice to know that the National members have so little faith in the future of this country that they think that whenever students see an opportunity to take out money to pay for their education, their instant thoughts will be about how they can rort this scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI do not think that National members know anything about the incentives of paying back a student loan. I wonder how many in the National Party currently have a student loan or have had a loan, of say $20,000 or $25,000, that they have had to pay back. I wonder how many of them have found\u2014as I did, and as my colleague Darren Hughes does, as we both still have student loans, although my student loan will be gone by the time this policy comes into place\u2014that the biggest disincentive to repaying a student loan was the interest charged on it. When I left university, my student loan was much, much higher than the amount I had borrowed, because of the interest while I was studying. Dr Smith was very, very proud of that policy\u2014so proud that he did not turn up to our university to talk to students about it when he was invited to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e03489e5c4504e509ca13e05c847a832\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The window wasn\u2019t big enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd4267b8c69944b683091dae448bc3ff\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. This measure in this bill provides a real incentive, because the biggest incentive to getting rid of one\u2019s student loan and to be able to plan for the future, buy a home, and have a family is to see a light at the end of the tunnel for a debt that one has carried on one\u2019s shoulders for a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EStudents do not have any choice about paying their loans back. It is not as though they can suddenly finish university, get a job, and think: \u201CWell, I\u2019m not being charged any interest, so I\u2019m not going to pay anything back.\u201D They are compulsorily paying back at the rate of 10c in every dollar they earn. So since I started working in 1996, when I left university, I have been paying 10c more in every dollar than every other member in this House, and I can tell members that it is a huge, huge incentive to pay off my student loan and see that go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI do not think we will see the incredible rort that the National Party members think we will see. Of course, they will go out there and try to convince students to rort it. They will be on the campuses with their National Party and their \u201CYoung Nationals\u2014Blumsky\u2019s Team\u201D T-shirts, and saying: \u201CCome on, rort it, rort it, rort it.\u201D But I do not think students will do that, because when I went around campuses during the campaign, students were actually really grateful for this policy. They were sick of politicians like Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, who went around signing pledges that he was going to get rid of a $1,200 tertiary tuition fee, then got into Government and said: \u201CWell, I did, but I replaced it with a $3,000 one.\u201D Students are sick of those kinds of politicians and sick of being the political football that they have been for a very long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe need to do something bold with student debt. Student debt is a huge problem. We all know that. We can all pretend that it is not a problem. We can all pretend that grandparents and parents are not worried or concerned about their children\u2019s student debt. Parents will still be worried when their children graduate from university with a $20,000 student loan, even though it is interest-free. They will still be concerned about the fact that their son or their daughter owes $20,000 and will have to put on hold a lot of decisions they would otherwise have been able to make a lot more easily if they did not have a debt to repay first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe would not even be having this huge debate if the National Party were not incredibly worried about this policy. National members know how much this appeals to students, parents, and grandparents who have seen the real effects, and to families who have not been able to afford to put their kids through university. They have seen the effects\u2014the way it drives people overseas, the way they have not made the repayments while they are over there, and the fact that they have decided not to come back. Members should go overseas and ask anybody over there with a student loan: \u201CWhat is the No. 1 issue you consider when you consider returning to New Zealand?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05010fd45a842dea8a9df646ed2285c\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Tax!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b83ec5ba184e27b1556a6f29ad99f3\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Come on! Oh, please! The No. 1 issue is student loans every single time. This is why National members are still sitting on the Opposition benches\u2014they have never understood what matters to the young people of this country\u2014and they will continue to stay there as long as they continue to be as arrogant as they have been about this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022 data-id=\u002204053635a545425084571592a46dfc1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204053635a545425084571592a46dfc1a\u0022\u003EMARK BLUMSKY (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is wonderful, is it not, that so many Kiwis start up small businesses, and luckily stay in them, because they become the lifeblood of New Zealand. People start on the road to building their futures as a part of the university of life\u2014the \u201Cuniversity of small business\u2019\u2019, trying to make some money. A guy, for example, goes to a bank and says he is about to start a small business, and he asks for a loan. The bank manager says: \u201COf course you can have a loan. I need your house. I\u2019d like your house as collateral for the loan.\u201D Well, ouch, that hurts, but nevertheless, the man says: \u201COK, that\u2019s fine. But if I\u2019m giving you my house, Mr Bank Manager, can I please have that loan interest-free?\u201D. The bank manager says: \u201CYou\u2019ve got to be joking! Do you think I\u2019m stupid? That is totally irresponsible because that is not the way the big world operates. There is no such thing as free money, Mr Small-businessman, because you\u2019ll go broke.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003ESo let us look at Part 3 of this bill. What signals are we sending these students about the way the big, wide world operates? Dr Cullen wants to give students in New Zealand free money. There is no such thing as free money. Students need to learn that they do not get it easy in the big, wide world. They will not get things like interest-free loans. Dr Cullen is misguided on this one. We can help these students by letting them learn the real lessons of life. Dr Cullen should tell students that if they want to pay their loans off, they should go and get a part-time job, and he should change the tax levels on the money they will earn in that part-time job. He should make it so that they are not paying secondary tax of 33 percent. Let us have a rate of 19 percent, as John Key indicated quite recently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EWhy, I ask the Minister, do we not teach students that there is no such thing as free money and that there is in fact a big upside to life if they do in fact pull their finger, if they have aspiration and ambition? It is not fair, I say to Dr Cullen, that a very large section of our community, a group called small-business owners, is getting whacked around the head by his tax burden, by his compliance costs, and by high interest charges when it is those people, those small-business owners, who pay him the very high taxes he will then give away to another group, called students, who will receive a very unfair privilege from his very big-spending Government, in the form of an interest-free loan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EI want to know what the Minister will say to those small-business owners who go to the \u201Cuniversity of small business\u201D, trying to make some money. What will he say about Part 3 when he goes to those small businesses and says: \u201CI\u2019ve given free money to students but you will have to continue to pay those very, very high taxes.\u201D? Those small businesses are the lifeblood of New Zealand but Dr Cullen will cripple them in order to give students free money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00225c8e8ff4258a4fc29b2a80b8959cf724\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c8e8ff4258a4fc29b2a80b8959cf724\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E For the benefit of those who may be just now tuning in to this debate on their radios, I point out that we are debating the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill. We are now on Part 3, which relates to the amendments to the student loan scheme to give interest-free loans to students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI am hugely concerned about the provisions of this part. I have had those concerns increased by listening to Moana Mackey say that no one is massaging this change to his or her own advantage. Let me just say to her that I have a number of examples, but I have enough time to give only one. When this proposal came out the principal of a high school, who I do not think would have ever voted National in his life, said that as soon as the interest rates came off while students were studying, he gave one very clear instruction to his kids. He had three kids in tertiary education, and he said they should draw down every single dollar that they could draw down. He said that his oldest daughter, who was finishing a double degree, after 5 years had a student debt of $71,000, but she had an investment account with $41,000 in it. So for the Government to say that no one is making use of interest-free money shows its limitations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIf Government members wish to cast aspersions upon the intellect or thought processes of National members, then perhaps it is time for them to reflect entirely upon whether they have understood the complexities of this situation. For example, Dr Bollard is hugely concerned about New Zealanders borrowing money, so what does he do? He has put up interest rates nine times in a row, as a disincentive to borrowing. But suddenly we have interest rates being lifted off student loans. What will happen? In one part of the economy interest rates are going up and up as a disincentive to borrowing, but in another part students will have to pay absolutely no interest. What will they do? It is absolutely clear that this measure will increase borrowing. Without a doubt, that reaction will follow. I suggest that any students who do not participate in that neither deserve, nor are they likely to get, their qualifications, because of their limitations in understanding the first principle of borrowing. There is absolutely no incentive for any student whatsoever to get involved in repaying his or her loan any faster than the prescription for paying the minimal amount extracted through tax payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI have some understanding of the implications of tertiary education costs. At one stage my wife and I had four kids all drawing down on student loans in the same year. Our kids have now pretty much paid back all of their student loans because they got in, rolled up their sleeves, and did that. The repercussions from doing that, now that they are in their 20s, are that they own their own homes. They know about borrowing and the responsibilities of paying back loans. It is a gross naivety on the part of the Government to presume that the impact of this measure will not increase student debt. It will have an impact on the responsibility for clearing that debt, because without interest no disincentive whatsoever is applied against borrowing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI am appalled that we are doing this to an economy that needs to instil responsibility and create an environment where there is some equity between students and the rest of the community. Mr Bollard, in order to create a disincentive against borrowing, is continuing to increase interest rates. What conclusion do we draw from that? Does the Government not accept or believe that Mr Bollard\u2019s actions are the appropriate ones to stop us from borrowing? Does it not accept that that reaction has come from us over-borrowing as a country, and will that not happen to students? Clearly, it will. The disciplines of having a loan, understanding the responsibilities of a loan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a5ac152b614f8b8cb8d3144e163dd4\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not easy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230b07bbd8b5d40dcac35ff31c38873d5\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly; it is not easy. But that discipline is completely gone now. National absolutely believes that education\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce049f28b97f44d283db01fb3246a4a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce049f28b97f44d283db01fb3246a4a7\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022dee8c16f59bb49eba98d4c56b0c3ffba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dee8c16f59bb49eba98d4c56b0c3ffba\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I commend the members of my caucus around me who have spoken so wisely and fully about the bribe of the election loan. I also take the opportunity to point out to members opposite that I do not recognise too many of them as being representative of the people I come from\u2014that is, the people who roll up their sleeves, take their towel to work, and earn a living, having made a decision to back themselves when it comes to earning a living. From that point of view I take this opportunity to say, quite frankly, that the university of life is where we get our best value. This interest-free loan stuff devalues the workplace as a learning place. What I am increasingly hearing from employers is that we are breeding a generation of people who are not aware of what a full day\u2019s work is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EMy view is exactly as other National Party members have said\u2014that the cost of a tertiary education is an investment in a person\u2019s future income potential. That makes sense to me and to an enormous number of New Zealanders. On that basis, it appals me, and I find it quite repugnant, to see policy being pushed through\u2014solely for the purpose of winning an election\u2014that disenfranchises the majority of New Zealanders. I endorse and highly value education, but what I see here is a very warm fuzzy policy that denies what New Zealand was in the past and what it should be in the future. Courage and enterprise are what made New Zealand great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI am concerned that as Dr Cullen steps forward into the tertiary education scene to ensure that we have value and high-quality education, he actually spawns, through free student loans, another wave of people becoming students. I am totally opposed to this policy. Quite frankly, the best means to address this issue was tax relief. If former students had had that money left in their pockets, they could have shown a bit of prudence and paid their loans off sooner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb080fa59c3b4839886282cbef6f7ce1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb080fa59c3b4839886282cbef6f7ce1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002269ddecc5ef0d4bf094c7f2cb73492acf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000460\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 7 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022334b0bbc1e334f43a51255a0eae5f851\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c6741a529ec24334b9384e923b34d3cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f71af6890574eca9ded5ee656b72b67\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to Tax Administration Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e637ef2d83c140be9e53bf94942921a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e637ef2d83c140be9e53bf94942921a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E All of this part relates to the wine equalisation tax issue. I just want to repeat again my earlier thanks to all parties\u2014and all members of the House, individually, indeed\u2014for allowing, by leave, these matters to be inserted in the bill, because it is, of course, controversial in its other parts. I think we can take some pride in the fact we can actually work sensibly, recognising that it is very important to get this particular part of the bill through in order that our wine producers are not penalised by the wine equalisation tax that the Australians introduced in their Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00222fc018ae536a41f0ab64baabf331f6df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fc018ae536a41f0ab64baabf331f6df\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In legislation such as this, I guess there has always got to be one bit that the Opposition, or at least the National Party, can support, and, indeed, we do support Part 4. As the Minister of Finance has just explained, this part provides for the implementation of the policy to enable New Zealand wine producers to claim back the wine producers\u2019 rebate that is paid to Australian wine producers, and so put New Zealand wine producers on the same footing as their Australian counterparts. I must make it very clear that we oppose every other part and every other measure in this bill, but it is important that everyone here understands that National supports this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think it is quite important that members understand exactly what is being done here with this provision. It is an unusual provision, one must say. What happens is that if a New Zealand wine producer sells wine to Australia, the Australian wine importer has to pay a wine equalisation tax on it. It is not the New Zealand wine producer who pays it, the Australian wine importer has to pay this \u201Cwet\u201D tax, as they call it. It is a 29 percent tax so it is a significant tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns, if this measure had not been put in place, was that over time the Australian wine importers would start to screw back the price they were prepared to pay for New Zealand wine, because they would need to be able to cover this tax one way or another, and Australian wine producers would be at a competitive advantage because they were able to claim back a rebate for this tax. So over time, wine wholesalers in Australia could start to get a more competitive position out of Australian wines. So it is really important that this issue is dealt with. Because the way it works is that a New Zealand wine exporter sells wine to Australia\u2014the importer in Australia has to pay this 29 percent tax, but then, interestingly, it is the wine producer here in New Zealand who, under this provision, claims back the rebate. It is not the wine importer in Australia, it is the wine producer in New Zealand who claims back the rebate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe officials kindly provided figures to the Finance and Expenditure Committee to make sure people understood the measure being implemented. If a New Zealand wine producer sells $1,000 worth of wine to an Australian wine importer, the Australian wine importer has to pay 29 percent tax on that, say $290. The New Zealand wine producer, under this measure, can claim back a rebate for that A$290, which is what the Australian wine producers have been able to do. In Australia, where that wine equalisation tax is being paid, the wine producers could claim that back, so this measure does put New Zealand wine producers on the same footing as Australian wine producers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is an unusual measure, and Part 4 provides for the necessary administrative requirements. Members will note that the amendments in Part 4 are amendments to our Tax Administration Act to enable New Zealand and Australian authorities to communicate effectively to allow this rebate. The rebate has to be paid back by Australia, of course, to New Zealand wine producers, so it requires the exchange of information, and this part provides the necessary exchange of information. Members will note the disclosure of information in new section 85J in clause 20 that will be inserted into the principal Act\u2014the Tax Administration Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is important because, without this, New Zealand wine producers would be at a real disadvantage. It took the Government a little while to provide for it. It should have happened almost immediately under the CER provisions. The Australian Government should not have been able to provide for Australian producers to be under any more favourable terms and conditions in the Australian market than the New Zealand exporters to that same market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo it should have been dealt with pretty quickly. It took a while. The Government, in my view, took too long to get this sorted out, but I acknowledge that at least the Government has got it sorted out now, and this part implements the necessary provisions to enable quite an unusual provision in our tax law to be implemented. National certainly supports that, and we will be voting in favour of just this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00224d141708220a4600979b7951cf2b1cef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d141708220a4600979b7951cf2b1cef\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call to pick up on Minister Cullen\u2019s point. I also extend my congratulations to all members supporting this part of the bill, and also members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee who saw the absolute common-sense of pushing and assisting this part of the bill in the best way possible. Congratulations must also go to the New Zealand Grape Growers Council, which lobbied very hard, very quickly, and went straight to the top and managed to make some material change to a proposal from Australia that would essentially have seen many New Zealand wine producers actually go out of business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut the interesting point to note, as I pointed out earlier, is that so many of those New Zealand producers are already partially or majority owned by Australian winemakers anyway. So there is a bit of a circular argument going on here. It is great for wine growing in New Zealand. It is great for my province, the glorious Hawke\u2019s Bay. I thank everyone who is supporting this part of the bill, and I fully endorse our support of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EOne more quick point though: as I referenced before, I am constantly concerned about the Australianisation of New Zealand\u2014of many things New Zealand, be it food safety, be it banking regulation, or be it tax law such as this, and I do wonder whether we are taking on board some Australian tax laws and tax policy, etc. I note that Mr Howard recently pointed out that Australians will be enjoying the benefits of tax cuts forthcoming, so I look forward to New Zealand adopting some of those parts of Australian fiscal policy as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAs I said, it was only a quick call, and congratulations to those assisting with this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1ba08fa565946cc81fc28688aec9ee0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1ba08fa565946cc81fc28688aec9ee0\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Like my Hawke\u2019s Bay colleague, and being from Marlborough myself as the member for Kaikoura, may I thank those who worked long and hard. We must not forget about our sauvignon blanc, which, of course, is a very fresh, beautiful, lemony-tasting wine that is very enjoyable, and I have great pleasure in referring to that. We should bear in mind that at the moment in Australia there is still a lot of pressure upon the wine industry; a lot of vines are being pulled out, and there will be ongoing pressure; so I say, in congratulating the committees and the Government that have worked hard on this legislation, that it will be appreciated by the winegrowers in Marlborough. However, we should not forget that we must keep scanning the horizons for any Government that does try to impose embargoes and obstructions to the importation of our products. So I am also very pleased, on behalf of all the winegrowers in Marlborough, Hawke\u2019s Bay, and elsewhere in New Zealand, to say \u201Cthank you\u201D for this, and we will be supporting this legislation when it comes to the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef097620c6cd48268daf3bb66eb5170e\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220337eadd4c054817a4bc7223e3101c35\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00228e46799bc4ac4cfc8dc2c2045ef71ef1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e46799bc4ac4cfc8dc2c2045ef71ef1\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E It is probably a fitting way for the Government to end its legislative year, virtually, by passing the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill. I get the feeling that when Parliament meets again next year, it will not be quite so much the taxation that is controversial as the spending. Government members have pointed out that, as is often the case, people pay the tax. They do not like it, and National members oppose this legislation because the tax rates do not need to be this high. They absolutely do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe public are very much focused on how the money is being spent. We saw today one way in which Labour is spending this money that shows that the tax rates in this legislation are not justified. I have a little graph here of the Labour Cost Index since it began in 1992. [Interruption] Yes, that one. I know the Minister in the Chair, Dr Cullen, will not like it because it shows as a fact what he regards as ideological burping. It shows that up to December 1998 the private sector wage rates grew faster, or at about the same rate, as the public sector wage rates. Since December 1999, the two lines head in different directions. Without fail, the public sector has grown consistently faster than the private since December 1999, and the rate of difference is growing. The public sector is now growing faster; for December 2003 and 2004, it just about goes off the end of the graph. The gap between the two is opening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo when Dr Cullen wonders why people are worried about their tax rates, he needs to think about the way he is spending the money. His own department has said there is pretty much no evidence to believe that public sector productivity reflects the growth in public sector pay. The index excludes teachers and nurses, so the Minister should not stand up and say he wants to cut the pay for teachers and nurses and sack a whole lot of them. That is not the point. What is happening here is that Labour\u2019s interest groups in the public sector are being over-rewarded. They are getting more than their fair share of the growth dividend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EOf course, the spending pattern within which this is all happening is putting pressure on interest rates. As my colleagues have pointed out to the Minister, there have been nine increases in interest rates in the time that he has been the Minister of Finance. They keep going up, and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions membership is starting to feel the pressure of it, so they will be trying to bring pressure to bear on the Minister to do something about tax rates. He did not answer the question that the Council of Trade Unions, I think, quite reasonably asked. Why cannot the Minister bring forward the inflation adjustment in the tax rates, which he himself proposed? I do sympathise with the Minister in that he has found it very hard to find anyone who thought it was a good idea. Now the Council of Trade Unions and its membership have figured out that it is the only option on the table for reducing taxes\u2014and bringing some discipline to Government spending, because that is the other benefit of lower taxes\u2014they want to know why they have to wait until 2008. The Minister has the opportunity to get up and explain that to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI cannot see why they should wait until 2008. They are facing higher interest rates, driven by low-quality Government spending. They see in the newspaper every day examples of wasteful Government spending. They are going to hear about the Labour Cost Index, which shows that public sector wages are going up a lot faster than theirs. The members of the Council of Trade Unions are not public sector employees; they are private sector employees. They are out there in the nasty real world. Their wages are not going up as fast as public sector wages. They think, quite reasonably, that the Government should act sooner than is proposed in order to transfer some of that excess surplus from the pockets of civil servants, who do not need it, to their pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a20f49e4a80a4b0485542fe833902d02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a20f49e4a80a4b0485542fe833902d02\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I am not quite sure whether that was a waving of the white flag or simply another leadership bid from the member. He said the most important thing right at the start of his speech: next year taxation will not be as big an issue as it was this year. That sounds awfully like waving the white flag. It is only in an election year that taxation is a big issue for the National Party . The party does not like to talk about bribes, of course, but one can afford billions of dollars worth of tax cuts, at no cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMr English said that taxation will be off the agenda next year; it will be much less important than it has been. Why? Because Mr English never supported the National Party\u2019s tax programme. He knew, and said this privately, that it did not add up. He knew it did not add up, because he has been a Minister of Finance. He knew the programme would not work, and that all National\u2019s candidates up and down the country were being fed a whole load of bovine something or other. They were feeding it out to the people, paid for by the Exclusive Brethren, who I hope pay their taxes even if they do not vote\u2014although our check of the rolls shows that the men vote but the women do not, which is very interesting. All of that was leading to the conclusion that somehow or other a cornucopia of riches would flow forth, in terms of tax cuts, without impacting upon anybody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThen Mr English told us that the issue will always come down to where the money is spent. Well indeed, it will. But I have to tell him that Treasury has not come up with any great ways of saving money. Treasury\u2019s ways of saving money, if we are looking seriously at doing that, come down to all the usual things, such as lifting the age at which one receives New Zealand superannuation, and \u201Ctargeting childcare more precisely\u201D, or roughly those words\u2014that is, more income testing for middle-income people who are trying to access childcare, and hence more of the effective marginal tax rates that the National Party so objects to, time after time. They come down to targeting heath assistance, particularly in terms of primary health care\u2014in other words, raising the cost of going to the doctor or the cost of prescriptions for the great mass of middle-income New Zealanders. Those are where the savings can be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI invite Mr English to signal that his programme as the next National Party leader, if he gets the job, is to raise those costs of the middle class and give them back the money, by way of tax cuts, that they otherwise would have got the benefit of through services. Of course, he will not say that. Mr English is an old-fashioned interventionist who always says that the Government should do something. He says the Government should do something whenever there is any problem in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022392eda7345ad4bcebd96468116d848d5\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d85c4d7d7246179571cd16f2f98499\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Did anybody else recognise me then? Did it not sound familiar? Mr English says the Government should do something. He does not say what it should do; as long as it does something, it will be all right. Deep inside Mr English a real, old-fashioned Muldoon tries to come out whenever there is any kind of problem in running the country. Mr English is not like Mr Key, of course, who wants to give everybody back their own money, by way of tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226646b6972a784924be9d294bb6d9ed65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226646b6972a784924be9d294bb6d9ed65\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill, which is quite a surprising title, because it seems to me that the bill is all about middle-class welfare and student loans, and I do not actually see that mentioned in the title of the bill. However, I will continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill encapsulates just some of the things that are wrong with this Labour Government. It will entrench middle-class welfare; it says to the people of New Zealand: \u201CIt\u2019s OK. You don\u2019t have to strive, because we will top up your wages\u2014that is, as long as you have children.\u201D The bill says: \u201CIt\u2019s OK. We may be overtaxing you, but we know better than you how to spend your hard-earned wages. So now, under this piece of legislation, you can stand in a line. You can stand in a line, mum, with all your children. You can stand in a line and fill out forms. How exciting! You can fill out forms so that some young office worker can scrutinise your private affairs. After that, you may be eligible for a benefit.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI ask members to picture how good this will be for a young mother who has, say, three children under 3 years old. Let us say she has twins of 5 months old and a 2-year-old. Heaven forbid, but it does happen. I ask members to imagine the process that this young mother will have to go through in order to access the Working for Families package. I remember that when my children were little, it used to take me a long time to get them dressed, get them clean, get them ready to go out, then to walk along the road and have to stand in line to fill out forms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBut tonight I want to focus on the uncosted interest-free loans, which is Part 3 of the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill. I wonder what message we are sending to our young people and students. I suggest that under this Labour Government the message is: \u201CIt\u2019s OK, because under a Labour Government you get a free ride.\u201D I go back in time a wee bit to when the interest-free student loans policy was announced by the Government during the campaign\u2014that uncosted election promise that we had. I was on the road at the time. We had a fabulous tax policy that we were on the road with. I went out and started talking to people. They were very interested in this interest-free loan of Labour\u2019s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIn Palmerston, which is a wonderful part of the Otago electorate, I talked to a pensioner. This elderly gentleman had fought in the war, and he had paid tax all his life because he had worked all his life. Borrowing was the last thing that this elderly gentleman would contemplate doing, because when he was growing up one actually paid for what one wanted. So it was really hard to explain to him\u2014and he could not understand\u2014why this generation should get a free ride. Then, on another occasion, because I was a particularly hard-working candidate, I was in Cromwell\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3cd3cf0152a4536936862be6fad0ee3\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why you won.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5b07621a25f4dd7ad88cccc75ec1baf\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Whip. I was talking to a worker in Cromwell who had a student loan. He had been to university, had got a degree, and he had a student loan. It was really interesting, because I thought: \u201CHere we go, here\u2019s a guy who\u2019s going to say: \u2018Yay! Interest-free student loans!\u2019 \u201D. But he did not. He said\u2014and I think he is absolutely right\u2014that from his point of view this policy sends all the wrong messages to the people of New Zealand. He said: \u201CEveryone else has to pay interest on loans when they go borrowing from the bank, so why shouldn\u2019t students?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2c225a5f76d4517b6669a6235b2436f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2c225a5f76d4517b6669a6235b2436f\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I take issue with even the title of this bill. It is very unwisely called the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill. That is deceptive; it should actually be called the \u201CTaxation (Hide the Bad Parts Amongst the Good Parts) Bill\u201D. Like most wine, that part of the content is certainly palatable. As a parochial Cantabrian I give my support to it on behalf of the winegrowers in our province, who include the makers of superb pinot noir, such as Muddy Water, which is the literal translation of Waipara\u2014although some may have thought it referred to the Minister for Social Development and Employment. In our area we have the makers of wonderful cool-climate riesling and chardonnay, among others. So I support my colleagues in their support of their Hawke\u2019s Bay and Marlborough wines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EBut, unlike the Labour Government, we also support the Gisborne growers\u2014not just the winegrowers but the squash growers and the tomato growers. Those poor Gisborne growers have endured two civil defence events, and they have been promised absolutely nothing in relief aid. That is like the rest of the bill. It is discriminatory, it is poorly targeted, and it is very, very bad decision-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill discriminates against so many working families for whom Working for Families just does not work. Under this Government a person is not even in a family if he or she has only one child. Under this Government a person is not in a family, at all, if he or she has no children or, sadly, cannot have children. How discriminatory is that? A parallel can be drawn with the student loan package, which also discriminates. It discriminates against those such as plumbers, who borrow to buy their tools of trade. They take the risk, they borrow the money, and they pay the interest. Why should students, who are also purchasing their tools of trade\u2014their education\u2014not pay interest when the plumbers do? That is unfair, it is bad decision-making, and it discriminates. The student loan policy discriminates against those who have scrimped and saved and got rid of their student debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI am appalled with the student loan policy, the unashamedly\u2014and, admittedly, bold\u2014vote-buying and bribery, the knee-jerk, panic reaction. Where are the costings? Where is the fiscal responsibility, the calculations, or the budget? What is worse is that we have a lack of fiscal responsibility in the bill. How on earth can we expect our students to be responsible when the Government cannot be responsible, as shown by it bringing forward such a reckless, irresponsible bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt is also unrealistic to suggest that students will not change their spending habits. That is naive. Labour members should tell that to the student who has just bought a $400 pair of sunglasses, and I know one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba70c3d0bc1a496c953121eb48a61bec\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t do that on your student loan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022222fe93d6d214c44a5934a0ebc56c005\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: This student did, and similarly, like the bloated education bureaucracy, the Working for Families package increases its own bureaucracy. It is plain and simple redistribution. The Government takes the money in higher than necessary taxes, and processes it through an expensive bureaucracy. Then, if people are lucky and ask nicely, some may get it back. But some may not get it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe do not think that is fair, we do not think that is reasonable, and we do not think that is sensible. We want to encourage responsibility, not discourage it, as my learned colleague says\u2014and I have a lot of learned colleagues on this side of the Chamber. We want to send the right message to New Zealanders, not the wrong messages. We want to give New Zealanders incentives for hard work, not to turn them into super-beneficiaries. We need to make working, and working harder, more rewarding than not working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd12ee7c64934ba190c0b7a0206c2cd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd12ee7c64934ba190c0b7a0206c2cd4\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002202da5b1c2c25408888b42655d76da477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202da5b1c2c25408888b42655d76da477\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the title of this bill, I suggest that the title should be changed to \u201CAbandonment of the Kiwi Go-ahead, Look After Yourself Ethic Bill\u201D. It is absolutely outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis bill has three parts. I find it very interesting that, although the members of New Zealand First talked in support of Part 3, they actually voted against it. I say to them \u201CWell done!\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI note that the student loan provisions will strike $2 billion off the balance sheet of New Zealand. I also note that when this policy was introduced, the Green Party was running at about 9 percent in the polls. After its policy was taken from it, it just snuck in, at about 6 percent or thereabouts. I also note that this policy was alleged to be an attack on the M\u0101ori Party vote, but in that sphere it failed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI wonder whether there is a dark secret behind this bill. It is my recollection that the Minister sponsoring this bill, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, has never had any involvement in an education portfolio in the past. With the shenanigans surrounding the tertiary education sector and the interest-free student loans legislation, and with that Minister being in charge of the purse strings, I think there is something untoward here. I think we should watch this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI also note that the publicity surrounding this issue said it was aimed at hauling New Zealanders back from overseas. Well, quite frankly, if the average student loan is about $14,000, which is about 4000 quid, and if someone is earning about another \u00A330,000 or \u00A340,000 in the UK, there is still no incentive whatsoever for that person to come home, even with the interest knocked off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI believe that New Zealanders are rational investors. They are rational economic beings; they are good people; they are sensible. Mr Bollard from the Reserve Bank agrees, having recently hiked interest rates for the ninth time to discourage New Zealanders from borrowing. The Inland Revenue Department also has penalty rates of about 26 percent to discourage people from extending their borrowing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut I issue a challenge to every single member of any party that votes for this bill. It is very simple. Those members should give me, for 5 or 10 years\u2014they can choose\u2014$1,000. I will borrow it off them at zero percent interest. I will pop it in the bank, and at the end of that time I will donate the entire proceeds from interest to a charity of their choice, and I will give the principal back to them. Is that a good policy? I issue that challenge to them. I look forward to all comers taking me up on that bet. If every member on the other side of the Chamber gave me that money\u2014the ones I presume will vote for this bill\u2014I could put about 60 grand on deposit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis bill also does not quite address some of the key operational issues. A few clauses are about borrowers having to advise the Commissioner of Inland Revenue of their absence from New Zealand, the discretionary power of the commissioner, etc. Nowhere does it address how, what the process is, when, and what the rules are. This will turn into a shambles. If members think the National Certificate of Educational Achievement is a shambles, they should wait until our smart and rationally investing students start to see what is in front of them. Those students will play games; they will send excuses to the commissioner, to try to make use of the discretion to be considered outside the 183-odd days. They will play the system, quite frankly. I say again that they are rational human beings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI suggest also that this entire bill is a contradiction in terms of incentives. In respect of Working for Families, what incentive is there to get out of bed? What incentive is there to get ahead? In respect of the student loan provisions, what incentive is there to get out of bed to earn some money to pay off one\u2019s loan? There is none, zero\u2014funnily enough, that is the same as the rate of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003ESome people call this a student loan scheme. For me, with my banking background, a loan tends to have some kind of return. A zero percent loan is no longer an asset. That is why $2 billion will get knocked off the New Zealand balance sheet. New Zealand has a massive private debt problem. What will happen to New Zealand\u2019s private debt ratios once that sum comes off? Again, we will have an injection of dependency, more debt, and more control by this Government, which is absolutely hooked on control by various means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EMy good colleague Chris Finlayson mentioned tradespeople. They invest in their future income; they invest in their brains. So why are they not included in this bill? There are so many contradictions. I would be interested to hear the Minister of Revenue take a call on, in particular, the provisions regarding a zero return on a taxpayer asset. I suggest he would say he was quite opposed to that, if he were to take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u002211d0d407ac20490f9095b666ff4052e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211d0d407ac20490f9095b666ff4052e1\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022906b2024e9df4e7cbee5edcb6c15f524\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224ab2c16953f046919a27d297fa435beb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000518\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 7 in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000519\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223b5fe9b7083948178f6893a770e21a90\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002250cc960808b0466c9f004c325561b901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250cc960808b0466c9f004c325561b901\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee divide the bill into the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2005-06) Bill, the Taxation (Urgent Measures) Bill, and the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill,  pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222a0687c2316044e7ab13281253056324\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000521\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000522\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022513347841d164a869631cef31d50d0c3\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates of income Tax 2005-06) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022513347841d164a869631cef31d50d0c3\u0022\u003ETaxation (Urgent Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022513347841d164a869631cef31d50d0c3\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002299942fcb22f545f58165425344895e27\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd582dd2ec043069a9147a5341c4b5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd582dd2ec043069a9147a5341c4b5c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2005-06) Bill, the Taxation (Urgent Measures) Bill, and the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill be now read a third time. The Taxation (Urgent Measures) Bill and the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill deliver on key Labour election pledges aimed at improving the lives of a very large number of New Zealanders. They reflect our commitment to a fair and an inclusive society that offers its young people the opportunity to achieve their full potential. The new legislation will also make a real difference to the income of many thousands of working families with children. To be precise, some 160,000 working families will be better off as a result of this legislation. One hundred thousand families already entitled to family support and targeted tax assistance from 1 April next year will receive increased assistance, and some 60,000 additional families will also qualify for that targeted assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMuch has been made during the debate in the Committee stage of the marginal tax rates. All that this legislation does in that respect is to lower the marginal tax rate for 100,000 families but increase it for 60,000 families. The other matters referred to by Dr Lockwood Smith have, I am afraid, been par for the system for many years. If he wants to go off on the lonely road of trying to solve the problem of high effective marginal tax rates on beneficiaries as they move into employment, he will join the large group of bleached bones that lies within that desert marked as the tax benefit interface. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI see that my old colleague the member for Clutha-Southland is smiling at that, because he has no doubt been down the same track as others, in the past, of looking at the various papers on that particular issue. [Interruption] No. I am saying that everybody faces that problem, or otherwise people on very high incomes would still get partial unemployment benefits, partial domestic purposes benefits, or partial whatever else their benefit was. At some point the benefit system has to be exited from, in terms of the domestic purposes benefit or the unemployment benefit, and therefore that means very high effective marginal tax rates across a range of incomes. I say to Dr Lockwood Smith that nobody has solved that problem in New Zealand, although many people have tried to solve it. The most stupid example of trying to solve it was that of my former colleague the Hon Roger Douglas, who ended up with 100 percent effective marginal tax rates for everybody on low incomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237b8cefae4954335afd82a371e9554d5\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: It was lagged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcc7e6c3e7ce4c9a8d52118862907997\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014it was lagged. The member knows precisely what I am referring to, and that was done to try to solve the problem. It was the worst possible solution to come up with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe change in student loans will encourage our graduates to stay in New Zealand, because the loans are interest-free if they stay here. Graduates will pay interest if they go overseas. They will stay here to invest their skills, and New Zealanders will be attracted back here from overseas. Of course, the main opponent of this legislation in the debate has been the Hon Dr Lockwood Smith\u2014or, as he prefers to call himself, Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u2014who in 1990 said that he would abolish the fees that Labour had put in place for tertiary education, and that those toll gates on knowledge would go. Ever since then, and ever since National was elected in the 1990s, he has never even been back to a university campus to explain why he did not abolish those toll gates on knowledge but instead built them about three times higher, and then saw them go up 10 to 15 percent every year that National was in power. That is why, although some day later on the member may crawl back to a campus, he will certainly not go back there in coming elections\u2014unless he has all the windows and doors checked to make sure he can get out in a hurry, should he need to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe other element in this bill, of course, is the confirmation of the annual rates of taxation. We have had the usual whinge of the wealthy come from the National members that unless, God help them, their tax rate is cut, they will not work another day. They have said they will not get out of bed in the morning but will lie there, because they would rather live there in poverty than go to work in mere affluence. That is what those in the National Party say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMy goodness me, since the year 2000 we have seen that National has been on strike. Since its members have had to pay 39c in the dollar on income above $60,000 a year, not a finger has been lifted by those in National. Occasionally, two fingers have been lifted in this House, but the National members have never lifted one finger in terms of doing work, because we know they cannot possibly work if they will keep only 61c in the dollar of their income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022594feda58b274f0f87c1340c0dea1eba\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: You make lawyers and accountants happy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd3529990d4b45fdb34f2a0e695e3cbb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Even Katherine Rich\u2014the eponymous Katherine Rich\u2014has joined in the debate on this matter. [Interruption] I said \u201Ceponymous\u201D. If you had borrowed a decent amount of money and had a decent education, you would know what it means, Jacqui Dean, I think the name is, from Aoraki or one of those sorts of places. No, you are from Otago; you are that particular woman. And soon she will get to Middlemarch as well, proudly boasting that she had been to Cromwell and Palmerston in the Otago electorate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a9ea3d5df484385821cdcb723d2067b\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That member has been in the House for some time and should know that he cannot use the second person unless he is addressing the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3c1e302a6ba4e75a13851a65d5069ce\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware of that. I thank the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229365b85d948b45ba81eb3e1212e0b56a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ab697e1ffd4ba69cf9605da8272d1b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr English is absolutely right. Dr Cullen will come to order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4b671948d949d0a9aa3e70f0c818a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As the Irish would say, I must keep myself to the third person in these matters as we move on. So Jacqui Dean will visit Middlemarch at some future point\u2014which she still thinks is simply the title of a George Eliot novel, but she will find out soon that it is actually within her electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOn the Government side of the House we know that since we changed the tax rates we have achieved the highest participation rate in the labour force of any developed country in the world. We have achieved the lowest unemployment rate of any developed country in the world. We have grown faster than the developed world\u2019s average for every year that we have been in power\u2014but apparently none of that can happen. National members say that although that may work in practice, they know it does not work in theory. According to National, we have to stop doing the practical things that are working and encourage the wealthy, by making their tax rates lower\u2014and, as we know, at the same time making sure that the poor are worse off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe always know the fundamental Tory philosophy: the poor will work harder if they are poorer, the rich will work harder if they are richer, and the middle class will take their chances on the boundaries. That is National\u2019s philosophy in those matters. We wish it well. It is why in the end the National members lost the election, and it is why they will stagger on for another 3 years in bitterness and hatred and in the end lose the next one, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00222a58b6158f0d4e62a4752eb9026421b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a58b6158f0d4e62a4752eb9026421b5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E When it comes to political parties staggering, that member should look along his front bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccda6672498148e694886f09a6cbb522\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdff03238cd4d84a6acdb25aaf97768\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Actually, the taxpayer\u2019s dollar is much safer when they are not here than when they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EOne has only to look at the issues this Parliament has been dealing with in the last few weeks to see why taxpayers are so resistant to the level of taxation that Labour is reaffirming in this legislation. I will come back to that. You see, the tragedy of today\u2014and it is a tragedy of a lost election, from our point of view\u2014is what this Parliament could be passing as a tax bill. We could have been passing legislation by which 85 percent of wage and salary earners in New Zealand faced a tax rate of 19c in the dollar. That is what we could have had\u201485 percent of them facing 19c in a dollar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe could have done that with the support of parties that are actually supporting this legislation, by which I mean United Future, New Zealand First\u2014at a bit of a stretch\u2014and maybe even the M\u0101ori Party, too. They have a much better understanding of how New Zealanders want to get ahead and what they need to do to get ahead then the Labour Party ever does. If it were not for the accident of those parties promising to support, after the election, the party that got the most number of seats, they could be supporting tax legislation today\u2014as they are supporting this legislation\u2014where 85 percent of New Zealanders faced a statutory tax rate of 19c in the dollar. What better incentive would there be to get ahead, not only for all those people Dr Cullen says he cares about but also for all the ones that he does not care about? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EActually, he summed it up in his argument about participation rates and employment rates. The Government is priding itself on economic growth that was essentially built on increased employment. So more New Zealanders now work. We have more workers. I agree with that; growth has flowed from it, and people getting jobs has been a good thing, but it is no credit to the Government, because it has done nothing to contribute to it. But that is not the point now. The point now is not more workers, but better workers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff6f888f3f674cf2bdaba7575c18b8c2\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: More productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226721ac751960437d8cf176618d26b36c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and productivity. Is it not typical of Dr Cullen to be spending tens of millions of taxpayers\u2019 money on seminars, workshops, advisory groups, and industry advisory business council consulting strategic groups talking about productivity when he does not believe a word of it himself? Productivity needs workers with strong incentives to lift their skills and their levels of education to be more productive. The days of easy economic growth are gone, which is a truth the Labour Government will find out to its political cost over the next couple of years. That is why National\u2019s tax policy is the one that should be being passed by this Parliament. It would give all workers in New Zealand the incentive to get ahead, because we can all contribute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EBut that is not what the Government thinks. One reason it needs to confirm the current tax rates is that it needs to pay the burgeoning State sector wage bill. From looking at the figures, one would think\u2014and Government members somehow think, in so far as they have paid any attention to productivity\u2014that the most productive people in New Zealand were in the public sector. When we look at the Labour Cost Index, we see that every single day this Government has been in power, public sector wages have gone up faster than private sector wages. In the last 12 months the difference has accelerated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb08325ed7c4fab8c26c315e6f61369\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Nurses!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022470ed0ba3e8441258acd9f8568d78654\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: That is excluding nurses and teachers. When we include them, it is more, but when we exclude them, it is still faster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt is no wonder that private enterprises are struggling hard to get labour, because the Government is out there outbidding them. Why is the Government outbidding them? It is not because civil servants are more productive. It is not paying more to the civil service because it is more productive. That is clear in Treasury\u2019s briefing paper to the incoming Minister, which states that there is no evidence that, for the much greater expenditure on public services, taxpayers are receiving better services or a better deal. So private enterprises are out there, trying to get skilled people, and what is outbidding them? It is the Government. The public sector wage bill will rise by $1 billion per Budget for the rest of the life of this Government, and everything New Zealand First wants to get is in hock to that first billion dollars in public sector wages. That is why New Zealanders are resistant to paying the amount of tax that Dr Cullen wants them to pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIs it just National Party voters, MPs, or ACT supporters who are saying that? No, it is not. It is the membership of the Council of Trade Unions. In its brief to the incoming Minister of Finance, the leadership of the Council of Trade Unions recognises, in a polite way, the pressure coming on from its own membership. It says of its own membership that they believe the surplus is too big and that they should get some of it. We absolutely agree. The group of people in New Zealand who best reflect the interests of the membership of the Council of Trade Unions are those who make up the National Party. It is not the Council of Trade Unions leadership, and it is certainly not the Labour Government\u2014which keeps taking dollars out of the workingman\u2019s pocket to put them into the bureaucrats\u2019 pocket. That is what happens; it is as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Council of Trade Unions goes on to make one constructive suggestion, which I hoped Dr Cullen would have addressed during this debate: why does the Government not bring forward its inflation indexation of tax thresholds from 2008 to 2006? Dr Cullen said one thing about it. He said: \u201CAt least someone now thinks it is a good idea.\u201D Well, they do so because it is the only option for reducing the overtaxation of the New Zealand worker. It is the only option on the table because he has ruled all the others out and, as part of the coalition agreement with New Zealand First and United Future, those parties that are now part of the Government have made mention of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDr Cullen did not address it. He has plenty of money to do it. I do not think he realises how silly it now looks to be the only person in the country who thinks the Government does not have enough money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286c07e6c8adf4eba993d9a74025be1ca\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone else does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f9bb3581dec40338ce9f031c80e0601\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone else knows the Government has more than it can handle, but over the next 2 years we will see the odd situation unfold whereby on the one hand Dr Cullen has to tell his colleagues he does not have enough money for things that matter but on the other hand he has far too much, so that he is wasting it on all sorts of things, from the TVNZ charter to something I came across the other day. It is costing the Government $141 million, by its own figures, to run the tertiary education system. That is just the Wellington bureaucracy; it costs $141 million. I can tell Parliament that I have spent 2 years looking at what those bureaucrats do, and they do nothing. There is no evidence of the spending of that money benefiting any single New Zealander. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo that is why National does not support this bill. We could have been passing a much better one that would have put 85 percent of taxpayers on a 19c tax rate. We know that if the Government sticks to this overtaxation of the New Zealand worker, it will continue to waste money, and now it has incompetent Ministers like Steve Maharey and David Benson-Pope to do it with, which will make the problem twice as bad. What is more, the Government is getting the message from its own people\u2014some of whom voted for the Labour Government\u2014that the membership of the Council of Trade Unions is saying that the surpluses are too big. Those people want a reasonable and small amount of it now, but Dr Cullen has thrown that back in their faces with this bill, and he will pay a price for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e248976ace94d5e97621464e7088bb0\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228929e0c33bff4fa1805d70ccc208a677\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022d74b21da726f42b4b18a7db116de20bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d74b21da726f42b4b18a7db116de20bc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct an answer I gave to a supplementary question in the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab686b2554f04d6395bbddaefdb990ff\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca149fe5d2094af19e2d4eb22b58f6c4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Today in question time I misunderstood a question from Ms Collins when she asked: \u201CHas the Minister since spoken to, or briefed in advance, the Prime Minister or any caucus colleagues about the handling of the police report \u2026\u201D, etc. I can confirm that I had not spoken to or briefed the Prime Minister in advance of the release of the police files, but I have spoken to the Prime Minister since their release.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8d320df01e3401a905e400bc6880126\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8d320df01e3401a905e400bc6880126\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We had the same issue last week, and it is about correcting an answer at the earliest possible opportunity. I am just interested as to how the Minister came to realise at this particular point that he had misheard the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc11c27203fe4027b08c2f2061b38482\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member that, as Speaker, I do not know when people first have the information available to them. The member is an honourable member. He has indicated to the House that he has taken the first available opportunity to inform the House of that, and he has done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc5b37f1b8ba42f4821acf0a4c15c926\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates of income Tax 2005-06) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc5b37f1b8ba42f4821acf0a4c15c926\u0022\u003ETaxation (Urgent Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc5b37f1b8ba42f4821acf0a4c15c926\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3885d3742a549ff934cfd43abe2b515\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000574\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u002272d0337bfd1a4dc5a6f39911d73f4aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272d0337bfd1a4dc5a6f39911d73f4aa3\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E That was an interesting rewrite of history from the Hon Bill English, who is now the champion of the working class. Interestingly, he did not mention anything from the legislation, at all. He did not mention the Working for Families package going to 160,000 families. Why not? He is embarrassed to speak against it because he knows that that lost the National Party the last election. Nobody believed that party, but they did, in great numbers, believe the party on this side of the House. Bill English did not mention the write-off of interest on student loans. Why not? Because the National Party had nothing to offer the young people of this country\u2014those who are studying, those who are looking to study, or those who are still paying off a loan. So I suppose he was wise in that respect to ignore the wonderful features of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate the Hon Dr Michael Cullen. This is wonderful legislation. Early in the term of this Government, there is a defining difference between this side of the House, and the parties that support us, and the opposite side of the House, which has no idea what ordinary New Zealanders want from their Government. Bill English talked with crocodile tears coming down his cheeks about the poor workers and how badly they are in need of a tax cut\u2014which would be very little if they are on a low income, but which would be about $100 for MPs. He felt sorry for the nurses, the teachers, and the public servants who did not get a wage rise for 9 years under a National Government, and he says we should now give them a little bit by way of a tax cut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI remind the Hon Bill English that it was the policies of the Government that he was part of that just about destroyed the public service in this country, that put nurses 10 years behind where they should have been in terms of earnings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beb1b1702d514e61a438c8c29e754306\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s rubbish! You don\u2019t believe that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d62bdc66e3c45ccbd20e2ba9aa51c17\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: Bill English says it is a load of rubbish because he would not have given them the pay rise that this Government gave them; he would have kept them earning nothing, like National did when it was in power for 9 long years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EEarlier in the evening I heard a new National MP\u2014I do not even know who the nondescript member was\u2014feeling sorry for plumbers and electricians and saying how badly off they were under this Government. I remind that member\u2014whomever it was\u2014that the Rt Hon Bill Birch decided that we did not need plumbers and electricians in this country. That is why National did away with the Apprenticeship Act; it decided that this nation did not need them anymore. Poor old Bill English with his memory lapse, once again, forgets that that was the sort of policy his Government was responsible for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis Government has brought in Modern Apprenticeships to make sure we have opportunities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e47288e74741fe9ffb291be93681d9\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: The biggest con job ever!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206b2f86c82b046e3b5818b92654213e0\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Lockwood Smith, who gets very sensitive about which window or whatever he exits universities from, forgets that National destroyed the apprenticeship scheme. It said to the tradespeople of this country: \u201CYou don\u2019t matter; we don\u2019t need you anymore. There is a market out there that will determine whether we need plumbers, electricians, and builders.\u201D\u2014all those people that National members are now shedding crocodile tears for! Oh, they feel very sorry for them now. They were not sorry for 9 long years of screwing them down, and of saying to public servants: \u201CYou are worthless.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ENational members still have not worked out that they threatened the entire public service of this country\u2014the people who are responsible for building our roads, for looking after our children, for caring for the sick and the elderly. National members said to them: \u201CYou do not matter; you are all a waste of space. We do not want to spend our money on you anymore. We want to give the wealthy people of this country a tax cut, and all the rest of you can go and scrape together whatever you can.\u201D That is why National lost the election. That is why National members will not speak harshly about these two wonderful measures that look after the families of our electorates, and that say to young families, who are working hard to survive, that this is a Government that cares. The Working for Families package is coming in greater numbers to greater numbers of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EAlso, we will give a really good incentive to all the grandparents, parents, and other people who want to go and study. Every single member over there said that they should not have it, they will misuse it, and they will abuse it. National members say that every New Zealander, given the chance, will abuse the system, like them. I am glad to say that very few people think like that. Every member opposite who got an education did so on the taxpayer, and those members are going to vote against this bill because they say: \u201CIt was good for me, but, damn, it\u2019s no good for you. We do not want you to do it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EIt is like saying that all the students will go and borrow this money because it is free. There was, basically, a free education system in this country when I was growing up. One could go to university, and it was paid for by the taxpayers, who did so willingly. I did not hear all the people saying that they were going to go to university because it was free, and that they were going to abuse the system. Did they do it then? No. Will they do it under this system? No. But there is no understanding amongst the National Party of how real New Zealanders think. The National Party thinks they are all going to abuse the system, and I am glad to say that it is absolutely wrong on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis is very good legislation. I am proud to be part of this Government, which is getting this legislation through tonight. I know that the National Party will whinge and whine and it will show, once again, to the New Zealand public why it is unfit to govern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022637f7eb75ff145838ca092b9f60c0068\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022637f7eb75ff145838ca092b9f60c0068\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E One of the interesting facts about a lie is that, no matter how often it is repeated, it makes it no less a lie. The facts of the matter around apprenticeships are that in the early 1990s the National Government, when I was Minister, passed the Industry Training Act. It increased the number of apprentices in this country fivefold in 5 years, and that Labour Government that Mark Gosche is a part of has not changed the Industry Training Act at all, because he knows that it has been highly successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMark Gosche claimed that National has no idea what ordinary New Zealanders want from their Government. I can tell Mark Gosche that ordinary New Zealanders do not want a Government that taxes them more and more. As they work harder, as their wages and salaries go up, they go into higher tax brackets, which means they pay more tax and take home no more pay. That is what is happening in this country. Despite increases in wages and salaries, the after-tax take-home pay under this Labour Government has not gone up, and New Zealanders do not like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders do not like a Government that thinks it knows best. New Zealanders do not like Ministers who think they know best and that they should tax people more and more because people are too stupid to spend their own money and only these Labour Ministers know how their money should be spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is a tragedy that tonight we are confirming these tax rates that mean New Zealanders will pay even more tax. As they get their wage increases, they will go into higher tax brackets and pay an even higher percentage of their income in tax. Of course, Dr Michael Cullen will then achieve even more massive surpluses and he can therefore claim he is being fiscally prudent. But he is grabbing massively more tax from his fellow New Zealanders\u2014he is spending massively more money. As my colleague the Hon Bill English said, it is a billion dollars extra a year just to cover the increase in core public sector wages. When I was a Minister our total Budget increases a year were $600 million, and now just the wages of the core State sector each year will cost a billion dollars, with no other policy increases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is sad that today New Zealanders are not facing the prospects of lower tax rates, which they could have been had the Rt Hon Winston Peters chosen not to get into bed with Labour. Doug Woolerton must be very proud of the fact that tonight New Zealanders face higher taxes\u2014because they will now face higher taxes. Confirming the same tax rates means that people will pay more tax. As their wages go up, they will go into higher tax brackets and pay more tax. Doug Woolerton must be struggling to justify how New Zealand First has done that to working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to spend a little time on the Working for Families package that Mark Gosche claimed National did not want to talk about. We are very happy to talk about this package, because it is turning tens of thousands more New Zealand families into beneficiaries. That is wrong. Doug Woolerton, when he spoke before, claimed that I bang on about these issues around the Working for Families package. I do not want to be unfair to Doug Woolerton, but so many people do not understand\u2014although I must say that Gordon Copeland is starting to understand, on the select committee. Gordon Copeland fought to get a bit put in the select committee\u2019s report on this bill that showed that not everyone on the Government side was unmindful of the massive marginal tax rates that three-quarters of New Zealand\u2019s families now face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E Most people think that the marginal tax rate they face is 21c in the dollar if they earn under $38,000, 33c if they earn up to $60,000, or 39c if they earn above $60,000. That is not true. Three-quarters of New Zealand families face far higher marginal tax rates. Any member in this Parliament could give an example, and I will tell them the marginal tax rate that a family will face. Let us just pluck a figure out of the air\u2014say, a family on $60,000, which is well above the average. Now, we think $60,000 puts them on the 39 percent tax rate. If we are talking about a family, that is wrong. That is not what happens at all. Under the Working for Families package, a family on $60,000 with dependent children\u2014whether one, two, three, four, five or six children\u2014does not face a marginal tax rate of 39 percent, but, according to the Inland Revenue Department, pays 60.2 percent on every dollar earned over $60,000. The Government takes more of the next dollar earned than the family gets to keep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe could name any income we like; it still applies. Take $90,000, for example, which is way above what most families earn. If the family earns another dollar, and there are three children, the marginal tax rate is 60.2 percent on that next dollar. This is just crazy stuff. Labour members say this package is good for families. Where is the incentive for families? Where is the reward for a family that wants to earn a bit more money to take the kids somewhere for Christmas? Let us look at the family with one child on $25,000, which is a low-income family. Maybe it is a woman on her own with one child, on the domestic purposes benefit, with earned income\u2014wages\u2014of $25,000. Do members know what tax she pays on her next dollar? She pays 92.2 percent tax. If she earns another dollar, she keeps 7.8c out of that dollar. For goodness\u2019 sake! Yet the former president of New Zealand First has said I am banging on. Three-quarters of New Zealand\u2019s families with children face those marginal tax rates, and that is what this Working for Families package is doing. It is not about banging on; it is not a technical thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a402b9d21254325823ca9d85249515f\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9606cd26fae4ca19fbd575c0b6ede0d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Doug Woolerton says it is. Families face those marginal tax rates. If they earn another dollar, that is the tax they pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet us take any combination\u2014for example, someone with two children who has been on the unemployment benefit but is trying to get off the benefit. If the family was on $40,000 of earned income, then on the next dollar they would be taxed 54.2 percent. It is generally thought that the highest tax rate that people face is 39 percent. That is not true. Families face those sorts of marginal tax rates. It is not just technical; it is the rate they face. If they try to earn another $100, the worst-off families, our lowest-income families that are not on benefits, not on the standard domestic purposes benefit or unemployment benefit, our poorest families that are independent of the benefit system\u2014and I want the M\u0101ori Party to listen, because I am sure Tariana Turia would be concerned about this, some of these may be M\u0101ori families\u2014if they try to earn another $100 to buy Christmas presents for the children, they lose $101.20. They are worse off. It might be 10 hours extra work at $10 an hour to earn another $100, but they actually take home less pay! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELabour members think that that is good. Doug Woolerton thinks that it is good. This bill, although it does not introduce that, takes the number of families that are caught in that trap of facing a 101.2 percent tax rate from 1,000 at the moment. This year there are 1,000 families caught in that. When this bill is fully implemented, 3,600 more families will be caught in that trap, whereby they pay a 101.2 percent marginal tax rate. It is shameful what Labour is doing to those low-income families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00228337c3b58f164bb0afc28da20f9ca120\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228337c3b58f164bb0afc28da20f9ca120\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E We had to endure hearing the Hon Bill English perpetuating the myth of the possibility of a coalition between New Zealand First, the M\u0101ori Party, and any and everybody and their mother\u2019s dog, at the last election. That was simply not going to happen, and he knows it. [Interruption] Yes, I know all about the baubles. Then we had the Hon Lockwood Smith going on about the marginal tax rate, but what he will, again, not tell the people of New Zealand, in spite of everything he said\u2014and we all know there is a point where it is difficult for people to admit things\u2014is that the Working for Families package makes things better for the people. There will be more money in their hand at the end of the day to buy the Christmas presents, to do all the things he is talking about. The package ensures there is more money for those people to do that, and he knows it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d093414ab4945bf91f4516cfc3c96ae\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: They will buy their Christmas presents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0dc94e5513745afa86236492dc746c5\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Of course! New Zealand First went on about increased wages at the election. That was our policy, but, no, the National Party would not support it; nor would Labour, for that matter. But at least Labour is making up the gap, in another way. That is why we support the Working for Families package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe believe that the people of New Zealand should do it by themselves; they should have wages that are commensurate with the work they do\u2014somewhere in line with those of Australia, not 30 percent out, give or take a percentage or so, which is where they are today. While I am talking about wages, let me address this business that Bill English has gone on about again\u2014public sector wages rising more than private sector wages. He is right, but were those ratios right before? No, they were not. Nurses were underpaid, police were underpaid, and the armed services were underpaid. That is what the National Party would like to perpetuate. Public sector versus private sector ratios were not right before, so we are seeing a catch-up. I would have liked to see both the public sector and the private sector get a wage increase, but National did not agree with that. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThey go on about tax cuts ad nauseam\u2014I thank Katherine Rich\u2014because tax cuts, in their view, are the answer to everything, but they did not talk about incentivising the tax system; they were just going to give a tax cut to whomever. New Zealand First in its agreement with the Labour Party will deliver some tax incentive, and we will go some way towards delivering recompense to older people, as well. But it is New Zealand First who is doing that and we will not be borrowing, as the National Party was going to have to do with its promises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is all very well for these people to go on about these things, but they did not win the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c8c61c9cb184b91be302fe30e2161e9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Really!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e972e198d50a4b6592cbb7fb49b72db8\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know whether they have noticed it. I tell you what: some of those old men in a hurry at the back of the National Party caucus are going to be causing some hassles come next year\u2014do not worry about that! No, National could not deliver those things, but New Zealand First is assisting in making sure those things happen. We are not absolutely 100 percent happy with the Working for Families package, but we are supporting it because it will help New Zealanders. We are not happy necessarily with doing away with interest on student loans. That policy was just to gazump what the National Party had offered, I might say. But we believe in a universal living allowance, and we have said so, and that is why we voted against Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI get back to the fact that if a policy would advantage New Zealanders and progress the country, then New Zealand members will support it, even though we did not invent it and it is not our policy, because that would be the right thing to do. It is all very well for those members to yell from the sidelines because they are upset that they did not win the election, and to carry on like trained seals\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225d085a3bbf84c9aa1c7198f1fe3c0a3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Nine long years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239050948271e4148a2b7266a13318615\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but we are here doing something. Yes, it has been 9 long years. Mr Assistant Speaker, I doubt that you believe this yourself, with due respect\u2014and I know I should not bring you into the debate\u2014but it could be 12 years. What are these old, new members of Parliament going to do? They are grey-haired now. They make you and me look young\u2014which, of course, we do. Those people will be upset, and, my goodness gracious me, they will give this current front bench of the National Party a hurry-up when they start stamping their feet. There are some fearsome reputations at the back of the House, but the reputations are only one thing; it is the fearsome egos of those people that will be causing the problems in the years to come. But that is a sideshow that we do not have to pay for. That is a sideshow that we will be able to sit back and watch in the coming years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EBefore I sit down I want to say something to the National Party members who say that tax cuts are the answer to everything, and that the people of New Zealand say they want tax cuts. Of course they do. If the National Party asks only half the question, and if the half it asks is \u201CDo you want tax cuts?\u201D, of course people will say yes. But if they are asked whether they want tax cuts and to cut the wages of nurses, or do away with schools, or do away with roading and all those things, then they are not so sure. They say they do not know that they want tax cuts, if that is what is going to happen. That is the second half of the question, which National has not been putting before the public of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u00226eb539c338c145058bbebe5e74f0113d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eb539c338c145058bbebe5e74f0113d\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take this opportunity to make a few key points on behalf of the Green Party during the third reading debate on the Taxation (Urgent Measures) Bill, the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2005-06) Bill, and the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFirst of all, we were dismayed by the attitude of the Government in pushing this legislation through the select committee process with such urgency that there was no opportunity at all for any outside group to make submissions. After the first reading debate, representatives of a number of organisations approached me expressing their keenness to make submissions on aspects of this legislation. It is distressing that the select committee could not see its way clear to allow even a few key sector groups to put their points of view forward. The Green Party thinks it is a real pity that the normal processes of parliamentary democracy were set aside and not adhered to in this particular instance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ESecondly, I need to make clear why we are supporting this legislation. Despite the severe reservations we have about aspects of the Working for Families package and the way the legislation is being rushed though the House, the reason the Green Party cannot do anything but vote for this legislation tonight is that it amends the Student Loan Scheme Act so that borrowers can get a full interest write-off when they are living in New Zealand. Our policy has always been to get rid of the student loan scheme altogether, and, failing that, to reduce its negative impacts as quickly and efficaciously as possible. We know that students and graduates all over the country and elsewhere have been celebrating ever since Labour\u2019s intention to amend the loan scheme was first announced, before the election. Even though this legislation does not go far enough, there is no way we could stand in the path of such beneficent progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EGetting rid of the student loan interest for resident borrowers will wipe years off their repayment schedules. The money saved will make it much easier for new graduates to contemplate all those things that we from older generations of students took for granted once we started on our career paths\u2014such as, being able to start a family, or buy our own home. The Green Party is delighted that life will be made a whole lot easier for students and ex-students because of the legislation we are passing tonight. But we will not stop working for the day that the whole student loan scheme is scrapped, fees are reduced to much lower levels, and every full-time tertiary student is entitled to a living allowance each week, regardless of his or her age or the income status of his or her parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe urgent need for a universal student allowance has only been made more pressing by news today that the latest statistics from StudyLink show that the number of people eligible for allowances continues to fall. In the July to September period this year there were over 4,000 fewer students getting an allowance than at the same time last year\u2014a decrease of 7 percent. At the same time fees are going up around the country, and it is harder than ever for students to make ends meet. It is time Labour took the next step and made sure students got at least the bare minimum required to survive, so that their debt burden does not continue to spiral. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThirdly and finally, I turn to the part of this legislation that amends the Income Tax Act to provide tax relief to some families through the Working for Families package. Although the Green Party supports the extension of the abatement cut-off point from $27,500 to $35,000, and the reduction in the rate of abatement from 30 percent to 20 percent, we remain deeply concerned by the underpinning inequity of Working for Families, which denies beneficiary families the same assistance that so-called working families get. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAny Government, but particularly a Labour Government, should be aware of basic principles of social justice and common sense\u2014that families, including families\u2019 children, need the same amount of money to live on regardless of the source of the parents\u2019 income. It is simply unacceptable that Labour persists with its blind adherence to the 1990s ideology that says that unless at least one parent is in substantial paid employment, both adults and children within the family should therefore suffer an existence of harassed penury and perpetual indebtedness. At least a fifth of our children still live in poverty today. A large proportion of those kids come from sole parent and other beneficiary families. Many of those children are M\u0101ori. The legislation we are passing today gives more money to the slightly better-off families, while continuing to deny support to those families who are most in need. This legislation maintains the gap between the working and the beneficiary poor, with a discriminatory child tax credit, which will become the in-work payment from 1 July next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThat is not good enough. It is high time Labour recognised the valuable contribution to society that people make in raising children, even when they are bringing them up on a benefit. The bringing up of children, even by those dependent on the State for support, should be seen as one of the most difficult but most honourable jobs going, and it should not be subject to the blatant discrimination upheld here tonight that is intrinsic to the whole concept that paid work is all that matters. The archaic doctrine of the deserving and the non-deserving poor should have been left in the 19th century where it belonged\u2014it did not really belong there, either, but it definitely should not have been transported wholesale into the 21st century by a Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c033b584db164ff6b44a18adbcadd6b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c033b584db164ff6b44a18adbcadd6b8\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to oppose this legislation. It was an interesting contribution from Mr Doug Woolerton from New Zealand First. He reminded us that New Zealand First had campaigned to lift wages. What New Zealanders did not realise was that the only wage that would be lifted would be that of Mr Winston Peters. We did not realise that New Zealand First\u2019s campaign was not about lifting the wages of hard-working New Zealanders but was all about the baubles of office and Winston Peters getting a ministerial salary. That is what the campaign was about, and New Zealand First has done nothing\u2014nothing\u2014to help the working people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThat is why ACT opposes this bill. There is a very simple measure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d5d36400fe4e34a725f58d9b94d888\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will realise, as I do, that there are some rules about debates in this House, and one of them relates to the issue of relevance. So far we have learnt that the reason the member opposes the bill is that I have got a job. That is a gross waste of Parliament\u2019s time. I know he is an inexperienced member, and that is one reason why he will stay in Opposition for the rest of his career, as brief as it might be, and as overspent as his budget was in the last campaign, but he is required to confine himself to the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings, and to try, if he can\u2014and that will be a remote possibility\u2014to address the issue before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293813e981b4e4d00ab93bb8b201f50a4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that. I refer him to Speaker\u2019s ruling 44/3, which allows\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbadcc404f6543adb879e12590740fac\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: A very good ruling!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ec9813f36144954a27d84da53a903f7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I am on my feet. It allows a member some leeway in responding to criticism. But Mr Hide will come to order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205fa67ce0d9b4f1bb929eadf58b2fd68\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The other thing that Doug Woolerton told the House was that New Zealand First had won. I saw what happened on election night and Winston Peters lost the seat of Tauranga. The people of Tauranga dumped him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b44c2297cd04081abd2830723c55860\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ca91e862daf402fa8c2d06448a71c64\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The member says \u201CNo, no, no.\u201D, but the reality is that more people voted for Bob Clarkson\u2014\u201Cthe old man in a hurry\u201D, they called him\u2014than voted for Winston Peters. Why? Because Winston Peters had failed the people of Tauranga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac703f12bb0e4a3dae6d35c065f4a361\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You overspent and so did he.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cb7cd5612164637960714f05ba2dbdf\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone who won broke the rules, but not poor old Winston Peters, who lost the election, lost the seat of Tauranga. He is heading off to Malta\u2014[Interruption] Steve Chadwick is excited. She is waving at me the original bill that has been split into three. Let me deal with those three bills. I look forward to hearing Mr Peters\u2019 contribution and his explanation of how he won\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d135f690308841bc83b30af7d044ab30\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: After you? What a waste of time. It\u2019s like taking candy off a baby.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0bc5563cbad420db520422daa9fb249\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: That is what Bob Clarkson said it was, and he said it was like that in court, too. He said it was a hopeless court case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231dc3893db454619b669b9db5d7b5eb8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Overspent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f15349ecc747cf87f38421455c0d49\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Peters sits there and he chips away. He used to be happy to be just the member for Tauranga. Now he is miserable to be just the member for nowhere. That is the problem with Mr Peters\u2014the member from nowhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c72376e57864f2a9e235a4ab2d54be7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How many seats have you got?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265b3e15906f49c7968f5616580f204d\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Peters calls out asking how many seats we have. We have one\u2014it is called Epsom\u2014and he has none because he lost Tauranga at the last election. He is hanging on through the list. The people of Tauranga dumped him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5fee83dbcd74da092fbe51918411f24\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What about Muriel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f4eeacda866469bb8727fe60e23e0d4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Let us get back to the legislation. I know that Mr Peters wants to talk about his loss because it weighs heavily on his mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EA very simple thing we could do to help working people in New Zealand and, indeed, to help the country is to lower and flatten taxes. The 39c rate should go, the 33c rate should go, and we should make the top rate and the company tax rate 25c in the dollar. I do not think there is a respectable economist left in the world who does not think that sound tax policy is about flattening the tax system, not lengthening it as the Labour Government has done. Indeed, as my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith pointed out, under the Working for Families package someone on $60,000 with a few kids is paying an effective tax rate of 60 percent. If those people earn an extra $1 they lose 60c and they get to keep 40c, and somehow Mr Peters and Mr Cullen think that is a good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhen Mr Peters first came to the House he was a member of the National Party and he supported lower taxes, but he lost that seat too, actually. He is the only member in this House to have lost two seats, yet he expects to come down to this House and say he is a winner. Mr Peters has lost two seats in a row. He lost Hunua then Tauranga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that if we lowered taxes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022200e1efc89744b13b2c36e2c9f09b06a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In the interests of having a fair comparison, I have to say that the member on his feet lost in 1996, lost in 1999, and lost in 2002, and now he regards himself as some sort of hero because he has finally won one out of four. What rate of success is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a13a190f6184e3cb4c92d40484d7532\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that is not a point of order; it is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a896fdc28e84642a10017e13f44fd30\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: That is all right, Madam Assistant Speaker; he is a man who has to get attention somehow. The people in Tauranga do not listen to him anymore. In fact, I heard that he is closing his office in Tauranga and shifting it to Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf5181ebb2b484f816e8059c4e8d1e4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I draw your attention to the question of relevance, and it is particularly relevant when a member on his feet tells a downright lie and says I am closing my office in Tauranga. That is important for the people in Tauranga, because they know that, unlike him, I am not a fly-by-nighter. The office stays open at the moment and he knows full well that is true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215489aa45f9e4c1f926f70da0e62e7bc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows very well that he cannot insinuate that another member lied. The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1320443c93d45e8b339f1b9e0791ac7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, Madam Assistant Speaker. Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fc48dc9eac74f1794134a653817a20c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member knows that he must withdraw and apologise, and that is the end of the matter. If it is a new point of order, that is different, but I also remind the member that we have had two points of order that are not points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6c9f81310d24e93ada303563f95aff9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I said it was a downright lie. For you to raise objection to that means that he is owning up to being the perpetrator of it, which I did not quite say, did I. I said that the statement that I am closing my office in Tauranga is a downright lie. I did not say that he started it, but I am saying that what he is saying is a downright lie, and if he wants to be the originator and owner of it, then he would have cause to raise a point of order. But he did not, did he\u2014you did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0b11b3d83e4d349984864e4ad55194\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: It is my responsibility to rule on a matter like that. The member knows that that is very close to the wind. Certainly, I took that to be how the member had called it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b3506e851c4668b3abead7b0318239\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The difficulty you have is that the Rt Hon Winston Peters withdrew and apologised, then deliberately repeated, on a point of order, exactly what you had complained about and what you had had him withdraw and apologise for. That was deliberately questioning your authority in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568cff43f4e942a1aedb982fb6e9c2d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca49414543e84d5696a1edcd9d59fab8\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: The member can object as much as he likes. You pulled him up for saying that what I had said was a downright lie. He was required to withdraw and apologise. He then raised a point of order and repeated exactly what you had asked him to withdraw and apologise for. I ask you, Madam Assistant Speaker, to require him to withdraw him and apologise for what he said and repeated on a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e41a0f2f3a4f05bee4c7c9ba7cf93c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member was contesting the context in the way that he said it. I certainly did not rule in his favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be4a24bfdd044378013d64803e4cb85\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In that case, is it all right for me to stand up in the House, as an Opposition MP, and say that what David Benson-Pope has told this House most days is a downright lie\u2014because you have just ruled that Mr Peters can say that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbdde0250b2140f2a3a8887ec0af70b4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, I listened to the member, who was making a point of order about the context. I did not agree with him. He withdrew and apologised for the first point that I had pulled him up on. Please continue with your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e8bad6f09aa4ee79c2c1afcc73fccc4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc89dbe3c33646908bdf5f16b4e2dd8e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, please be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204fcb63224e0488f8ee6cfd7d8376d38\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I will not be seated, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365325d3e675457c819490735eb5d160\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I have ruled on this matter. It is the end of the matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff0629b99fb4c8d9a8e6a16cecd33cd\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is great, thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker, because we now have a new ruling in this House. Members can stand up and say that what Mr Benson-Pope said in the House was a downright lie, because that is what Mr Peters said, and that is what he got away with in this House. We can say someone is a downright liar, and it is a downright lie, and it is all OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d721402d0a64d16ac853e03e104a747\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I will rule on what Mr Hide just did. Mr Hide absolutely contested my ruling. Mr Hide will now withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204dd4ce7ba0c43cc89b3408ca89e4cc6\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I thank Mr Peters, because what we can say is not that Mr Benson-Pope did anything wrong\u2014because that is the point that Mr Peters made\u2014but that what he said was not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266edad6a33fc4f258b7f332edf092a50\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, I will give you another warning. What you are doing is completely irrelevant to the question. I ask you to come back to the legislation and speak to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226073a5deb00241d38bb3e80aad5c9763\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am making a point that you asked Mr Peters to withdraw and apologise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17da6cce6b041c398164e244caa6964\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: You are doing it again. You are now contesting my ruling. I ask the member to desist or I will have no choice but to ask the member to leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b2f46d6177454a9175257faae5cb48\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re a good lad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a77f52d54e94967890abc9cf8ee2ee2\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I am, because I won Epsom and he lost Tauranga. That is the thing that he cannot get over. That is what bothers Mr Peters. He lost his seat. Bob Clarkson got more votes than Winston Peters. Winston Peters is a loser. That is the trouble we have with Mr Peters, who is sitting on the sideline and chip, chip, chipping away. He will be proven a loser again this week. The idea that a New Zealand First member can get up in this House and somehow say that that party won the election is rubbish. Winston Peters from New Zealand First lost his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EACT members oppose this legislation because we want taxes to come down, not sometime in the future, not next week, but now, for Christmas. We want the tax rate flattened. We do not agree with targeted assistance that puts people into a tax rate system of over 100 percent\u2014[Interruption] Well, Steve Chadwick is another loser stumping up and down. We have a party of losers over there on the Labour benches. We oppose this legislation. We oppose the student loan interest write-off. It takes $2 billion off hard-working New Zealanders, off people such as truckdrivers, cleaners, and waitresses, and shifts that $2 billion across to people who are accountants, lawyers, political scientists, and lecturers\u2014and some of them might even get a bauble or two, might lose their seats and become Minister of Foreign Affairs! We say that is wrong and unfair. The way to help the graduates of New Zealand is to drop their taxes to a flat rate of 20c or 25c; then they could pay off their loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut, wait, it gets even better. If we cut taxes there will be more investment, more entrepreneurship, more jobs, and a stronger economy. Instead of heading for the hard landing that Labour and Winston Peters will deliver to this country, we will have a strong, growing economy. We will have investment, businesses that are succeeding, and a strong economy. Under the Peters - Clark - Cullen Government we have an economy that is heading for a hard landing next year, and I say that this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227924a0a011774d67ad1991fbd5306e9f\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: There are only two of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a980d0d485d4a43b2d27eda462d2ac4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Chadwick has a lot to say. How did she get on in the election? Did she lose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227332f418d17943658891673f4ca76e0d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, got back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bbb430854d4463fabc7efe798b6d9d4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Just got back, did she?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022778f4307c4a84eca83484150eeb94e94\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: That much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022011982da869b421095d60f97995a90c9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Next time Steve Chadwick will be gone and she will be a loser, too. ACT says we should be cutting taxes tonight. We should be dropping the company rate and dropping the personal rate. That would be the best thing we could do for students. That would be the best thing that we could do for working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00222ed7a5a1da064b4fb73b22ed7d7e29d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ed7a5a1da064b4fb73b22ed7d7e29d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E What a strange speech from the last of two members of the ACT party. Of course, he was the member who deserted his whole party nationwide to rush back to Epsom to grossly overspend way above what the Electoral Act allows. The only reason the Labour Party is not taking that on is because Mr Hide will do more damage to National than anybody else can. So that, in a strategic sense, is the reason a legal case has not been brought against that man, who knows full well what he did, and what the law allows and disallows him to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe real issue is that in 1996 this man told the whole world, having grossly overspent in Epsom, that he would win Epsom. Then he had polls in 1999 saying he was way ahead in Epsom\u2014but he was not, of course. He is a fiction creator. He is a merchant of misery in its worst sense. He has the effrontery to come in here as some sort of hero because he took the ACT party to two members, and his deputy leader, Muriel Newman, who did work hard and did try to give a fair representation, was cast by the wayside. That is the character of that man. He feels great. On election night he felt so rapt and ecstatic because he had survived in a party that was in the Doomsday Book that night, and somehow got one more seat. He was happy with that. He is delighted to be here despite the disaster of his campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIn contrast let me make this very clear. We had a bad campaign. I am the first to admit it. I am the first one to take responsibility for it, because some days on one\u2019s best outing one\u2019s best shot is not good enough. But then again my track record is to survive here longer than any other member. To have this four-flusher, fly-by-nighter talking about a loser is pretty rich, is it not? I am just grateful that I have seven colleagues in this Parliament, and we are the country\u2019s third-biggest party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI must say this\u2014and we are talking about taxation\u2014that is a party, of course, that had $15 for every dollar New Zealand First had to spend in the campaign. They have had tens of millions from business interests all wasted because they have never been able to show one outcome for all that investment. Here is my point to everyone in this House. Can they think of one thing that the ACT party has done in politics these last 9 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266534b85e6c9455ab86b30a3fcb5a60e\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: IRD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bf9c50103d34fd19c2b2f260d06450d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh excuse me. There was only one outcome from the Inland Revenue Department inquiry, and that was the man from Great Barrier Island who got there because I laid a complaint of perjury with the police. He got no one any refuge at all. Even his mate Henderson got done in the inquiry, did he not? That is Rodney Hide\u2019s record. I ask members to name one thing\u2014and they can ring all around New Zealand and ask any library, any political scientist, or any ACT supporter\u2014that Rodney Hide and the ACT party have done for New Zealanders or anybody in the last 9 years. I will give members 5 minutes while I complete my speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223612b722593047e29b1f824c2dd2ce29\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: They lost Wellington Central.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8acd69b77f04299b13c7b64f169b9fc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that is right, they lost Wellington Central.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecbec8dc81d94e03ac24bbdab8afe5f2\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Look who to!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e210a08cda4665ab2f657d4fcf647f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have to say they were up against stiff competition. But then again when the civil servants saw the ACT party policy for Wellington Central it was goodnight Richard. I know that Mr Hide had that in his mind, because as long as Richard Prebble stayed here he was going to look very bad by contrast. Prebble had experience and presence of mind. He had been here a long time, and had a record, unlike this fly-by-nighter, who suffers from the psychological condition of recognition hunger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0654821632c4a2eb606e1bb308fd047\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but the member is going to have to come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8eb0406612d406a9648a028ef2756d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am getting to the bill, because the crux of this matter is, as it was in the campaign, whether it was better for students to get an interest write-off. I suppose one could say by way of the Government\u2019s treatment of this, that if its intention is to try to keep students in New Zealand, then that is a logical, rational reason for going down that path. We disagree, and we have said so. Our policy was a universal student allowance and always has been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut look at the contrast. The National Party came out with a massive promise for student loans\u2014not big enough, of course. Then, if that was not bad enough, it topped it up with $3.5 billion of borrowings for the tax cuts it promised. I might well ask the Business Roundtable, the Chamber of Commerce, and all those august so-called commentators in economics, as to where they were in the campaign when they did not raise a sound or a syllable, a mutter or a murmur, at this gross irresponsibility on the National Party\u2019s part, backed up, of course, by the most irresponsible party in Parliament, the ACT party, led by Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI am going to ask this. One is a hard-working ACT supporter out there giving one\u2019s heart and soul to a cause because one happens to be one of the few mindless true believers, but nevertheless that is a worthy belief if one is in a democracy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa94ba2f2d1444d1a73779cb69a65715\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Like Muriel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834bc01528884be0b9ed30a900e5fa39\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes, like Muriel\u2014working 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, just for the chance to come back here and represent her views. And then one finds that the party leadership has changed in a four-way contest\u2014in a party of eight\u2014and who have they got: Little Mussolini. He is the new leader. That is who they have got. How disappointing! And members can be certain that after the next election he will be gone. I will bet members any money they like that he will be gone after 2008. One thing that the far right do not like is a lack of performance and results. The second thing the far right do not like is having their message put out the way that he does it. The third thing the far right do not like is seeing something like student loans going up against tax cuts when they know one is affordable and one is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe tax cuts that the National Party offered were going to see this country borrowing $3.6 billion to finance them. I asked some people in the business world why on earth they were sitting back and not saying a word. They said to me that they hate the Labour Party so much they did not care what he says. What sort of rationale is that for so-called business leaders to desert every sacrifice of the last 21 years and all the reforms and all the changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3babab96d14d1bb03838d1b15510dd\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what Tauranga did when it dumped this member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e53c63e49c450b912437ce0417cb67\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: There he goes. Rodney Hide is not prepared to wait for the court case. Like everything else in this House, no matter what the subject is, he knows everything about it. He is the world\u2019s expert on anything and everything. Has he ever in his life made threepence on any investment he ever invested in? No, he has not. Has he ever run a business? No, he has not. Has he ever done a thing about what he speaks in terms of ideology and in terms of practice? No. In fact, he has not done a damn thing in his life. He does not fit the image of a parliamentarian of the far right, because what the far right like\u2014and I have seen them around the rest of the world; I have seen them in New York, I have seen them in the United States\u2014are men of style, of elegance, and of panache. They represent an image of what they are talking about. He is the very antithesis. This is just like the proletariat taking over the far right. In his case, it looks outrageous and it will not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First\u2019s point is we have an option with regard to student loans. We do believe that that was a better and more sound course of action to take. We believe, of course, in the universality\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a29f8233e9954523bdca2031df48da0f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: But the people of Tauranga didn\u2019t back it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb61469cd70478d9ccf39478e08bfb8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is like\u2014I cannot say it is like a stuck record\u2014a stuck iPod, or one that has 37,000 copies of the same song. That is what Rodney Hide is like, in fact\u201437,000 disks on an iPod, all the same. He says it loud. It is the idea that bombast and noise are a substitute for esoteric argument and debate. It is not, of course, and that is the reason why he is sitting over there, in Opposition again. While his colleagues around him are going grey in their hair, he loses his.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI have had quite a few inquiries from National MPs, who have written to me asking when they can get the golden age card. I have told them that, given their chances of promotion in the political environment of this country, that is a very good question and I will try to move it forward as fast as I can. I will add as many discounts and Fly Buys points as I am able, because not all of them have Rodney Hide\u2019s arrangements whereby he flew to Fiji to take part in a seminar run by a fraudster who is now in jail in the United States, and then came home and would not answer any questions. Do members remember that? He tried to make out he did not take any pay. He was lying on the beach, giving an imitation of a walrus, for the whole week and getting paid, and he would not answer the questions. That is a fact and it probably explains why he finds so unattractive something done in the interests of the balance of students of this country. The repetition of a mindless debate, as Doug Woolerton rightly set out, he finds\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f27aa613fe4119865de5eb48526bf8\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9134787a6114c58bd584cf8543a30ab\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I have not finished. Sit down! That is a good lad!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba3a155cff340018c94ffda3866ac32\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00229e32cc48722d4ce6925e667ede77dc2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e32cc48722d4ce6925e667ede77dc2b\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E In the interests of consistency of ruling, it is very flattering to have the new Minister of Foreign Affairs spend his 10-minute third reading speech on the member for Epsom. People of Epsom appreciate the attention. Mr Peters spoke for only 33 seconds on the legislation. When I was responding to the honourable Doug Woolerton, you were on your feet to pull me back\u2014quite rightly\u2014but how come Mr Peters could stand up, and I think members in the House will support me, and speak for over 9 minutes on nothing to do with the legislation whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cad2d5a12b547f8bbbaae316dd4c0a9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member was brought back to the topic on a couple of occasions. Certainly, he had a wide-ranging speech and introduced matter from the legislation into his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002262ad6c9f258f4a77831f0d8ee3cacdd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262ad6c9f258f4a77831f0d8ee3cacdd6\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d51630149f4bc5aa20b3d39b8dc8fc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, I have ruled on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b3fbbf059d54332aaff77fb65fe603f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a738ec84db324d81afcb5afdd7030c76\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022376f928abdee4025958ee1049e36276a\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: : Yes. I seek the leave of the House under Standing Order 350 to make a personal explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f7afafa1104456c87fb6efba18ba6c8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for the member to make a personal explanation\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c01597daf7d4fdf9613eee549a62aae\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: It is about the allegations Mr Peters made about spending in Epsom. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022051872d711d54f0982c68d3ac5c1d9ec\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is on his feet with a point of order. Would the member please clarify again what he is seeking leave for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227699e8306d6b4d39b7ca5d30d8e766b1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I want to make a personal explanation\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b639740a6ef842dc90b442ea0a459bd7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That member knows that while a point of order is being heard there will be silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc1140d695a5401a97812c3a2e87a66f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s it about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220237780d93c14db2a004a87f07ede163\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Peters would shut up for 2 minutes, I would tell him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ebefa51f0c475ebe6f163cbebab329\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: This is the final warning. When a member is on his feet with a point of order, he has the right to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5d1e310da5c41d6b7a1f2547d118838\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Let me make this very plain. Mr Peters, through his speech, and he has done it before, made allegations about my breaking the electoral law and, in fact, committing corrupt practice\u2014about overspending on my campaign in Epsom. I would like to use the opportunity in this House, under Standing Order 350, to make a personal explanation to rebut those allegations. That is what I am seeking leave to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224c8e42fef9a4d4b8f2c736f6c4fd134\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has sought leave to make a personal explanation as he has outlined. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bef53e5269134810888c07c3611e603e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bef53e5269134810888c07c3611e603e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. If you think we are being unreasonable I want to make this point of order very clear, because one would not normally stop a member of Parliament from giving a personal explanation. I want to make this one point: if he came down here with his return of electoral expenses, we would know who was telling the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203a13f0550bd4579a340d3be32e98168\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. An explanation is not sought. Leave has been denied. That is the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00221b71156fbb3b402a8cb1b9c4984d7431\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b71156fbb3b402a8cb1b9c4984d7431\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I think that in politics it is always important to know one\u2019s limitations. Following the Rodney Hide and Winston Peters show, it would be very difficult for any member to be half as entertaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand First member\u2019s speech was very thought-provoking. But I would like to go back to what I thought was a stellar contribution from another New Zealand First member earlier in the night\u2014the contribution of one Mr Doug Woolerton. I thought it was a very brave contribution, but in some ways it was a very sad contribution. As Mr Woolerton knows, he had the chance to play Santa this Christmas to many of his constituents; to be part of a Government that would put through tax cuts for all New Zealanders. I know that it is very sad for Mr Woolerton to be in a party where the only fun is the passing round of one bauble, which on occasion he might get to polish. But he had the chance to be part of a Government that would have passed tax cuts before Christmas for all New Zealanders. Those tax cuts would have offered 85 percent of all wage earners and salary earners in this country a tax rate of 19c in the dollar. New Zealand First members had the opportunity but they did not take it up. They had the opportunity to pass such legislation, rather than this miserly legislation arising from the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill, which I note the New Zealand First member who spoke before made no reference to whatsoever. In fact, if we had asked him the name of the bills, I doubt whether he would even have had an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe bills arising from the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill put in place this Government\u2019s visionless plan for this country. Where is the vision in that legislation? I will say what the vision for this country is. It is a vision where the middle classes become entrapped within the welfare system. It is a vision of greater amounts of debt for students, and slower repayments. The legislation does little to make better the lives of a lot of Kiwis who are currently struggling and paying more tax than they have to, to a Government that is intent on spending more than it has to in order to provide basic services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E There was an opportunity in this legislation to give something back to those hard-working Kiwis, those Kiwis who get up every day, go to work every morning, pay their taxes, and pay for the services within this country that they draw on. There was an opportunity to give something back to those families, pre-Christmas, but one of the first things the original bill did was to confirm the tax rates for next year. So there will be no relief for the electricians, the plumbers, and the gasfitters who came before the Commerce Committee to present their concerns on another bill that, at the moment, we are looking at. There is nothing for them in this legislation, nothing for those families who are struggling to pay for some of the basics. Although discussions of tax often focus on the wealthy, our concern is for those middle-income New Zealanders. If we look at the Working for Families package in particular, we see nothing more than income churning\u2014the Government taking more than it needs to from some families, only to hand it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the concerning things that I found about the Labour Party website was that when one taps in an MP\u2019s salary and the number of kids he or she has, one sees that some MPs will be eligible for assistance from the Working for Families package. What kind of message does that send to our country\u2014putting some members of Parliament on welfare, on some kind of system where taxpayers\u2019 money is handed back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b317e905884e49f48a23cee9e5eea1c2\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u0027Connor\u003C/span\u003E: You were giving the tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245d0eba837f94961aacb78033d414a00\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: One of the things about tax cuts that that member seems to forget is that a tax cut hands back an individual\u2019s own money that he or she earned in the first place. It is not the Government\u2019s money; it is the money of the worker who earned it in the first place. Therein lies the difference, I think, between Labour and National. National always understands that the money belongs to the person who earned it in the first place, and that if the Government is taking more money than it needs, then it should give it back, because it is not the Government\u2019s money. Members opposite seem to think that it is their money, and that they can put their hands in workers\u2019 pockets and take out more than they need, in order to fund a myriad of useless programmes, grants, and schemes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe Government would be better off getting rid of those, and offering New Zealanders some of their own money back. If people are given a tax cut, they know that it was their money in the first place. This Government likes to extract the money from people, only to hand it back, so that the people who get those handouts will be grateful and pleased with the generosity of their Government. That is all a have, because, particularly for middle-income New Zealanders, it was their money in the first place, and it should never have been taken out of their pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIf we look at the 39 percent tax rate, which this side of the House thinks should be flattened, we see that the only people happy with it are the nation\u2019s lawyers and accountants, who have done very well out of the 39 percent tax rate. They have brought in more fees than they can deal with by setting up trusts and all sorts of devices so that those who have the ability to have trusts and different kinds of set-ups do not have to pay tax in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ENational members think this legislation does not provide a vision for this country. Where is the vision in making more middle-income New Zealanders dependent on the State? Where is the vision in making more Kiwis take out bigger student loans than they need in the first place? This side of the House has made some good points about the fact that the legislation will encourage more students to take out greater loans than they need, and all parents with half a brain will say to their kids: \u201CI\u2019ll pay for your fees. You take the money from your student loan and put it into an interest-bearing account, at a minimum. You take out your loan and put it into some kind of investment.\u201D When interest costs are removed from a deal, there is every incentive to take out more money than is needed, and to repay the loan at a slower rate than one has to. Why would students be motivated to pay back their student loans in a shorter space of time than they needed to? It is not just the National Party that says that; Treasury has said it. In fact, every single paper that has been done on the subject has said it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ETonight we have heard many members on the opposite side of the House paint a rather rosy picture of New Zealand in the future. If that is the case, why does almost every single analyst, economist, or person who has studied the New Zealand economy say that next year things will get tough? Why did Treasury, in its briefing paper to Ministers, say that the Government needed to be careful with its expenditure because we are in for a rocky ride? Michael Cullen has an unusual approach to economics, in that he thinks it would be inflationary if tax cuts were given to Kiwis so that they could spend their own money, but if the Government takes their money and spends it on their behalf\u2014on anything from hip-hop tours to overseas trips that are not warranted, or sending the Minister of Foreign Affairs away so that he does not have to spend time in the House\u2014then that is not inflationary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWell, National has better ideas as to how that money should be spent, and one of the things we need to do is to cut spending in a wide range of areas. If one is looking at a difference between parties, the difference that is seen tonight is the extent of the faith that different members of this House have in New Zealanders\u2014whether they are able to make spending decisions on their own, or whether the Government needs to do that for them; whether people should pay for their education; and whether making loans free will actually change behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ELabour seems to think that taking off the interest on student loans will not change behaviour, in the slightest. On this side of the House we know that all parents with half a brain, as I mentioned before, will encourage their kids to take out a loan, because they would be financially stupid not to do so. Free money is free money, and, certainly, if people are going to borrow elsewhere, they should make use of a loan that does not incur any interest rate. It is just nuts. On this side of the House we are predicting two things: student loan amounts will go up dramatically, and the repayment time will increase dramatically, as well. That is just basic Economics 101. In fact, it is not even that: some of our primary schools teach it in basic mathematics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis legislation is not a vision for this country. Making more middle-income New Zealanders dependent on the State is no vision for this country, and, certainly, will not make us a country that can foot it with the rest of the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7b06ad7ef0c4baea36fcf62155d9eb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7b06ad7ef0c4baea36fcf62155d9eb8\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E We have had a very interesting debate. We have had a line-up of people on the Opposition side of the House who have been able to articulate the things that matter to ordinary New Zealanders. [Interruption] Yes, they are. They were able to articulate the things that really matter to the ordinary, hard-working New Zealanders whom Government members would not know about. Those members have never invested a dollar, and they would not know what it is to take a risk. All they want to do, when the country is running huge surpluses, is to take more of people\u2019s money. There was a golden opportunity, at this Christmas time and during the financial debates earlier on, for the Government to say it would give every hard-working New Zealander a tax cut. It is not a tax cut that they deserve; it is their own money. They are the ones who have earned that money. But, no, the misers on the Government benches say they cannot do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI will tell the House what Government members will do: they will say to hard-working students that they will make things easier for them, by taking the interest off student loans. What an incentive that will be! I can tell members what that will do. More students will borrow, and there will not be any faster repayments\u2014absolutely not! If someone is given free money, it makes sense for that person to borrow more. Every parent will think about where he or she can get free money from. Parents will realise they can get it from this Labour Government, so they will use that money. Who will pay for interest-free student loans? I will tell members who will pay: hard-working New Zealanders. The mainstream, hard-working New Zealanders who work\u2014they may be young business people, retired folk, single people, or people on some sort of benefit\u2014are the ones who will foot the bill that comes about because this Government says that there will be no interest on student loans. There is absolutely no way that this measure will reduce the burden on students. There is a common-sense premise here: if one can get something for free, one will take advantage of it. If it is free for students, it will cost somebody else. That is how it works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E National\u2019s policies at the election were about fairness and equity. They were about saying that if people worked hard, they would benefit. Business people know that if they borrow money, they invest in their future, be it in education or business\u2014[Interruption] The Government members would not know about that, because they have never been in business. They have never put a dollar at risk. They do not know what it is to put their money at risk. We would go out and borrow money, and we would pay interest on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOur policy is very simple. We would say, for instance, that the interest was a tax deduction. That is what it is about. That would show fairness and equity, whereby everybody was treated the same. But no, the Government has a very one-sided approach to this issue. It says it will scrap the interest on student loans, but mark my words, there will not be a reduction in the number of students paying back their loans. Even the best estimates state that this policy will blow out into billions of dollars, and who will pay? You and I will pay, Madam Speaker. Hard-working Kiwis will have to foot the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe have had some very good contributions this evening from some of our newer members. I was thrilled to see those new members have a go. Chris Finlayson was able to crystallise and articulate an argument with much flair and passion. He was right on that. He was able to show the important things about the legislation that make it an absolute farce, and to show why National members will not be voting for it. Kate Wilkinson, the lawyer, was able to bring those arguments together and say what matters to the people she represents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAnd Jacqui Dean, well, she was the person who was able to win the seat of Otago. We saw at question time today how the Minister the Hon David Parker was not really with it\u2014not even in respect of the questions I asked him. Jacqui Dean is somebody who knows what it is to have her feet on the ground, and she was able to bring forward those very important issues about how important business is. That is what we come back to. If we make an investment and have to pay interest on it\u2014if that is what it is about\u2014then let us make it fair and say that that is a cost of doing business. Sure, we should be able to claim back the interest on it as a tax deduction. But no, this Government says it will not allow that to happen and instead it will make loans interest-free for students. At the end of the day, that issue will be the Government\u2019s demise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett, the young member who sits behind me in the Chamber, has also been able to bring a feet-on-the-ground, common-sense approach to this legislation. This legislation does not actually help people; it makes beneficiaries out of them. We do not want that. We want people to move away from dependency. We want to give them the incentive to go out and do their thing. But no, we are passing this legislation tonight\u2014well, National is not passing it; we will be voting against it, because it makes beneficiaries out of people. It makes them dependent. That is not the sort of legislation this country should pass. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ECraig Foss, the young guy from Tukituki, also has his feet on the ground. He knows what this is about. He knows the sorts of things that the people of his region represent. He is another member who has been able to go out and win his seat from a Labour member, because he knows what makes the world go round. We are a party that stands for principles. There is nothing superficial about what we stand for; they are the things that are really important. We are a nation of small businesses. When we look at what makes the world go round and at what makes the economy tick in New Zealand, we see that it is about being able to take an investment, to invest in the things that are important, and to grow businesses, even if people have to borrow money. But if people borrow money, they should be able to claim the interest back as a tax deduction in order to reduce their taxable income. That is what business is about. Why do the Labour Party and its supporters not adopt that same sort of principle? It is common sense\u2014it is absolute common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThrough the Committee stage and the third reading tonight, National members have been able to show how foolish this legislation is, because it makes beneficiaries out of people. We want to move people away from dependency. We want to give them a hand up, not a handout. That is what the student loan interest write-off will do. It will not make people more secure. It will not allow them to progress, grow, and move on. It will make them dependent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ELet us look at those who receive money through the Working for Families package. Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith articulated very clearly this evening numerous examples that show that for every extra dollar people earn, they are not actually getting any benefit out of it at all. All that happens is that they are hit with high marginal tax rates. They have to ask whether it is really worth their while to work. That is what has happened. Yet National\u2019s policy at the election, which was so well received, was that one could go out and do the extra hard yards, and National would have a flat tax rate of 19c in the dollar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f78f0e2917b4024b28f9fa478ae07e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What happened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c84c61726a084dd5b3145c27d8d2bdb9\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: That will come. The member should just wait, because next time around, that policy will be really good. It will be very relevant in Tauranga. When I go knocking on doors in Tauranga, the member will see how important our policy is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe have been able to canvas a number of views here tonight, but I can tell members that National is the party that stands for fairness, equity, and low taxes. Student loan interest write-offs do not do that. The Working for Families package makes more people dependent. The carbon tax is coming up shortly. What will it do to the New Zealand economy? There is no vision. This Government has no vision for the future, unlike a National Government. It would make people care for New Zealand. We would say to them that we valued their input and contribution, and we would reward it through a lower tax system that showed that we thought they were important. We would not just give money away because it sounded good and because people may vote for us at the end of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis legislation is a nonsense. National has voted against it right throughout the debate. We have had a line-up of great speakers who have been able to represent heartland New Zealand. They have been able to crystallise and articulate those arguments right through the Committee stage and the third reading, and those are the reasons why we will vote against the bill this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022771a99009ce3419f93e28b94ddf7c416\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022771a99009ce3419f93e28b94ddf7c416\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I move that we have an extension of time. I have just received a call from an old constituent whose Mogadon is not working, and she reckons that 10 more minutes of such a speech would be perfect. So I move that we have an extension of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d6b82838ac945fc9b9735dfafea4fbc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can only seek leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240781d3699af422995e3d64dea5d6a66\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave, on behalf of an elderly constituent who rang me to say that her Mogadon is not working, for an extension of time. She tells me that 10 more minutes should just about do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f7364c24634583aae2873c1b6ec93c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that he can seek leave only for himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002279006232b32a4e7299b6de121fa6dcce\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2005-06) Bill, the Taxation (Urgent Measures) Bill, and the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd0951a77ba344aa820d125155edf056\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022058669779f0b4ea6af72ae7eee4775dc\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000756\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3b295bdb8b346e59643958d6d711792\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3b295bdb8b346e59643958d6d711792\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E This Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill was, unfortunately, interrupted last Thursday, when I was saying just how infamous this Labour Government was for imposing compliance costs on ordinary New Zealanders and on ordinary businesses, whether small, medium, or large, through the mechanisms of taxation, the Resource Management Act, and, of course, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E I mentioned the very well researched paper by Annie English for the meat and wool board, for Dairy InSight, for Deer Industry New Zealand, for the Foundation for Arable Research, and for Federated Farmers of New Zealand, which pointed out just how costly the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act is for ordinary New Zealanders\u2014and particularly for farmers, with an average cost per farm in the order of $3000 for arable farmers. When one looks at the explanatory note in the first version of this bill, and at the statements of net benefits of the proposal, one sees there is need for considerable concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022712c4b7b6dea47058e7057d7fb6e0472\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Who brought it in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3af6e21b2424073b50c3a7a3321e27a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: The National Government brought it in\u2014yes, it did, absolutely, and it was regarded at the time as one of the best pieces of legislation internationally. But over the last 5 years we have seen some of the most severe regulations in the area of new organisms anywhere in the world. It has sent\u2014literally\u2014hundreds of New Zealand scientists out of this country, when we badly need them, and I will give members one example\u2014that is, the transgenic sheep experiment that was taking place at Auckland medical school to look for a cure for Huntington\u2019s chorea. And what happened? The scientists said they would not carry out the experiment in New Zealand, as it would cost too much and it would take too long because of the regulations imposed by this Labour Government. I think that that is very important, and the former member for Tauranga should be aware that in this area we have one of the most\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4cb20c114c54d36bbe7351c2f26b434\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a boomerang.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef05a4e246d40b198d3b59a8552d9fa\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: He is saying \u201Ca boomerang\u201D; well, I say to the former member for Tauranga that this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f327456cc30455cbe15096bd0a552d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Who brought it in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c94c6ebe9f749f4a254bdaf273205f1\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we did bring it in, and he was a member of that Government, funnily enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea470929b20244c68922511c7014dee2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a753316c4c4f15b73d8ccbda55549c\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, he was. He denies it\u2014[Interruption] Well, maybe he was not. He obviously joined it later on, because he recognised the virtues of this bill. Nevertheless, I want to point out, with respect to the cost of transferring the approximately 70,000 notifiable toxic substances from transitional controls to the appropriate control regime under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, the estimation of saving is about $2 million. But we are concerned that nowhere in this amendment bill is there any suggestion that there will be monitoring to ensure money will be saved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI will ask the Minister to take a call later on to tell this Parliament whether the Labour Government, which brought in this amendment bill allegedly to save businesses money, will indeed monitor the legislation when enacted to ensure that it is working. It is all very well to bring in extra burdens on farmers, manufacturers, importers, and exporters under the guise of saving money, but this Labour Government has had a very poor record over the last 5 to 6 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI did want to mention one of the good things of this bill and one of the reasons why the National Opposition\u2014the National Government to-be\u2014is supporting it. That is found under a new heading in Part 1, \u201CRapid assessment and approval of other hazardous substances in special emergencies\u201D. It is something that became a very strong reality during the varroa bee mite epidemic. When it was finally realised by the Labour Government that it would not be able to eradicate that mite, there was great concern by bee-keepers that a miticide would be needed in order to protect hives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAt the time, it was impossible to bring in a miticide and, according to Federated Farmers, there had to be some very, very heavy eyeballing of the Minister in order for there to be a mechanism to bring in an appropriate miticide. It took a hang of a lot of trouble and effort to make any move by the Labour Government to make that possible, but finally it did. So it is quite good to see a rapid assessment and approval mechanism for biosecurity problems within this amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002279ff1a27a1624a39b3ce43f9106fda70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279ff1a27a1624a39b3ce43f9106fda70\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Labour\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, and I am delighted to do so. I found that speech that went before me to be very rich, and I would like to remind the member that the first Act was passed in 1996. It was a very pure Act, it was a very theoretical Act, and since then we have had to amend it in order to save money for people. I am very grateful tonight that this bill will go through in urgency, because it is a bill about saving money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EAt this stage, I want to pass some thanks. I know I am not the Minister in charge of the actual bill, but I want to thank the officials who put a lot of work into it, and I also thank my good friend Brian Donnelly, who took this on in the Education and Science Committee and did a whole lot of work in extra time to get this bill through. Now, why? He did it because this is a bill about reducing costs. The previous speaker actually talked about the reduction in costs\u2014maybe as much as $2 million. But there are reducing costs to Government and industry particularly, through the introduction of group standards\u2014by reducing the number of applications that a business or a farm has to make to the Environmental Risk Management Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E The 1996 legislation, as I said, was very pure. It was introduced, I think, by Simon Upton. The legislation that the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996 replaced was, amongst others, the Toxic Substances Act. That legislation had been ignored for years. If I remember rightly, in the last Parliament a huge debate took place around the fact that many people had not actually notified that they were importing or using toxic substances, either on their farms or in their businesses. But when we gave the incentive under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act to grandparent those to make it easier for businesses and farmers, we found that the number of toxic substances notified suddenly increased, I think, by about 100,000 so that we now have 110,000 toxic substances to be notified. That is effective legislation. It is the second reason why this bill is good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe bill not only is about saving money but is about protecting our environment, as well, because if those toxic substances are notified and the environmental risk management process gone through, boundaries will be set around the use and packaging of those substances. Does that mean anything? Use of substances? Members know the complaints that have gone through sometimes about agrichemical trespass. So we are clearly laying out how those chemicals are to be used so that they do not affect, say, the avocado grower\u2019s property rights when his or her crop gets sprayed by somebody misusing the chemical in the paddock next door. That actually is good environmental practice and good fair business practice in the terms of agribusiness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe legislation does a second thing\u2014and I can well remember when the Hon Nick Smith and I were on the case involving rat poisons being dropped into the sea along the Kaik\u014Dura coast. No one had done anything about legislating for the packaging and transporting of such poisons, which contaminated a whole marine area. That is what this legislation is about. It is about saving money\u2014[Interruption] Yes, it was probably, and it was particularly well-named. It was also about protecting the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe other important thing about this legislation is that it involves regional councils. Again, one of the holes found in that good piece of legislation of 1996 is that, rather like the Building Act, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act relied on people to enforce the provisions themselves, and all dangerous goods inspectors were taken out of the legislation. That left us in a very vulnerable state. It is why it is a very good scene to see regional councils being included, probably with some funding from central government, as we work through these issues in order to enforce decisions made about the use of chemicals and toxic substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003ELet me make one other point about toxic substances, because it is also about health. If we do not notify or register a toxic substance, as would have happened in the past before this particular legislation was in place, then nothing is registered in the poisons centre about how to treat someone if that substance is swallowed. So if a child who is on a farm, in a factory, or in a workshop out the back drinks something that no one knows was actually in this country, we cannot treat that child. That is the value of this legislation. It is about people\u2019s well-being\u2014their well-being environmentally, and their well-being in the sense that we have heard people and have said that we will find a way through grouping standards so that people do not have to go through individually, and so that we reduce costs by $2 million. This is good legislation, improving on theoretical legislation that was passed in 1996. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1e767c6ea90427790497b72c2a5e611\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1e767c6ea90427790497b72c2a5e611\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E We need to look only at the tragedy that has just occurred in Britain to understand the importance of our Parliament passing good-quality legislation for toxic and dangerous goods in order to ensure the safety of our public and our environment, as well. Where National believes the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act has got into significant difficulty is that the net has been thrown so wide that lots of things that have very low levels of toxicity and hold very little risk to the public have been caught up in this bureaucratic monster. That causes all sorts of costs, impositions, and really a breakdown in innovation within New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe classic example of that for me was the realisation that good, old sellotape has now been defined as a toxic and dangerous good, requiring its registration under the legislation. So I say again that where we have got ourselves in trouble with this legislation is not in focusing on those goods and items that are of risk but rather in throwing the net so wide that we pick up just about everything. As the previous Minister for the Environment has said, in a country of 4 million people we now have 110,000 different substances and goods that are within the ambit of this legislation. We have become too carried away and it needs to be simplified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill goes some way along that road, and National says that is good. We are, however, unconvinced as to whether it goes far enough in focusing on the goods that are truly dangerous and pose some risk to the public of New Zealand. I note that National does support the idea in the bill of having a group standard rather than having individual extra substances that all have to be individually registered. That makes good sense. We also support the introduction of exposure limits. That is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut I also have to note that those changes were approved by Cabinet over 2\u00BD years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022560cf8c890c845cd863423cb01fee8e0\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: How long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afbb412a42fd4bec9122d07416abe1d7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It was 2\u00BD years ago, I say to my colleague Paul Hutchison, who has a strong interest in these areas. So for all the rhetoric that we hear from Labour about its concern about compliance costs, we have had a set of quite sensible ideas to try to improve this legislation and it has sat before this Parliament for 2\u00BD years. What does that say about the level of commitment from this Government to getting on with improving important laws such as the Act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to give a practical example. The previous Minister, Marian Hobbs, was the Minister for the Environment for 6 years, and during that period we have done little more than tread water. We are now talking about legislation that is nearly 10 years old, and we are still in transition with it. We can accept, when we introduce a new statute, that it may take a few years\u2014a couple of years\u2014to get up and running, but when the transition period is 10 years long we really do put ourselves in something of a pickle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere is a large number of horticultural industries in my electorate and, time after time, I have written letters to the Minister, asking about the compliance costs of introducing a new, less toxic approach to pest management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022385168b6cfad4cc5b1648e611d1d0dc7\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: What was the response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cc43217d13472f96175374f7d1b8ad\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I received very little response. Basically, what has happened is that New Zealand\u2019s horticultural industries have been tied to old technologies, simply because it is so expensive to introduce new ones. An organic kiwifruit grower in my area wanted to introduce a new organic substance for use in production. It was going to cost him $23,000 to be able to import a 44-gallon drum of a chemical that was approved for organic use. Not surprisingly, he threw his hands up in horror and he has gone nowhere. We have killed off that sort of innovation with the poor implementation of the Act and with some of its difficulties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to give a steer as to where National sees the future. In a global environment, the difficulty of being a country of just 4 million people, in trying to register everything from sellotape to glue to very complex agricultural pesticides and chemicals, is that it is just too much for a little country to do thoroughly. Just as is the case in respect of medicines and Food Standards Australia New Zealand, it is National\u2019s view that we need to take a more international approach. We think there is a real opportunity to work more closely with our near neighbour Australia, and to come up with a common regulatory regime around many of these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAs much as we despise the Aussies, the reality is that they blow up just like we do. They are affected by chemicals, whether they be diesel or petrol or explosives\u2014all of those things. The vast majority of the 110,000 goods covered by this legislation pose exactly the same safety and environmental issues in Australia as in New Zealand. If this Government really was concerned about compliance costs, it would sit down with its Australian counterpart and move the regulatory environment to the point where, when one of these new products or innovations is introduced, it is possible to establish common standards between New Zealand and Australia to provide protection against it. A small range of plant materials may pose a greater risk to New Zealand than Australia, but they will be a very small minority of what goes through this excessively bureaucratic process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E The last comment I wish to make in this debate is in support of my colleague Paul Hutchison, who asked where the system is to ensure there are savings. We heard the Minister proudly boast that this bill will save $2 million a year in the hazardous substances and new organisms mechanisms for approving new substances. Quite frankly, I do not believe that. I want to know which measure in the bill gives this Parliament any confidence that that will happen. I suspect it will be like the last hazardous substances and new organisms bill. This is not the first one; we had another one. We were told that that bill would solve the problems with regard to the Act, and it did not. Now we are back, 4 years later, having another crack at it. Quite frankly, I share the cynicism of Paul Hutchison that although this bill does some things that are useful, there are not the checks and balances to make sure they are followed through with savings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe very last point I wish to make is that this stuff does matter. There is a very large imposition under the Act, particularly on New Zealand\u2019s primary industries. Whether it be the horticultural sector, the agricultural sector, or our forestry sector, the sectors that are the driving force of the New Zealand economy are deeply affected by the legislation. As it stands at the moment, we are holding back innovation and holding back success in those industries, and we are stopping them from using the latest international technology\u2014much of which is more environmentally friendly\u2014because of issues with regard to the Act. This Government has been tardy in addressing those issues. Six years on, we still have problems with the Act. We want to see a wider reform. We want to see the Act working so that New Zealanders can be confident that their environment is looked after and that dangerous goods are managed in a safe way, but equally confident that we can be economically successful without holding back the industries that provide the wealth for our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef341b105083431fbeec859bc396b655\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef341b105083431fbeec859bc396b655\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Just for the edification of the previous speaker, Dr Nick Smith, the Education and Science Committee in the last Parliament scrutinised three pieces of hazardous substances and new organisms legislation. One, of course, was the GE legislation when the moratorium came off, and the other two were more to do with toxic substances\u2014such as this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EAs has been pointed out, the bill is part of a raft of legislation stemming from the 1996 Act, which was the brainchild of Simon Upton and which sought to establish a common framework to regulate the use of a whole range of dangerous substances and novel organisms. Prior to that, these provisions were in a range of different Acts, and he was trying to put them all under one umbrella. So it is a little bit preposterous for Paul Hutchison to complain about compliance costs, because those costs flow through from the original legislation that was put in place by the National Government. It is a bit like the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA). National complains nowadays about NCEA but forgets that it was brought in by the National Government. However, one of the things that was not anticipated by that original legislation is the provision in the bill relating to group standards. The group standards mechanism in the bill will reduce compliance costs, and it is an endeavour to reduce those costs. The bill, together with subsequent Cabinet decisions, sets out a timetable for all the necessary measures that flowed through from the original legislation. The original legislation did not tie it all up. It had an expectation that further measures would be flowing from that\u2014and this bill is one of them\u2014particularly in response to the criticisms around compliance costs and the bureaucratic monster that Dr Nick Smith referred to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe key mechanism, and the unique mechanism in this bill, not anticipated by Simon Upton, is that mechanism of group standards, so that substances of similar types and characteristics can be treated as a group rather than as an array of different substances, each monitoring its own set of regulations and controls. The outcome of this should be a more user-friendly, less-bureaucratic, and less-expensive way of regulating the use of hazardous substances in New Zealand, and certainly it was recognised as such by most of the submitters. Nick Smith referred to the Act turning into a bureaucratic monster. Well, if some changes had not been made to it in the previous legislation, we would have had the ludicrous situation of farmers, for example, having to get handlers\u2019 licences purely and simply to distribute or use Billy Peach flea powder on their dogs. So some of those problems have been eradicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EAlthough some submitters suggested that some changes be made, and some suggested that the manner in which we have gone about developing the procedures flowing from the 1996 Act are flawed, in fact, one of the arguments was that we have not sufficiently used some international work in this particular field to springboard off; we have tended to try to recreate the wheel all for ourselves. Everybody agreed. There was not one group of submitters that did not agree it was necessary to pass this bill in a timely fashion. I guess for some of those who hark back to earlier times and wish we had gone down a different path, the answer is to be found in Macbeth, in that statement he made, that we are so steeped in blood it would be as tedious to go back as to go forward. As chair of the select committee that saw this legislation through in the last Parliament, I want to thank sincerely the members of that committee, including those who are no longer with us in this House, such as Bernie Ogilvy and Deborah Coddington, because the issues were extremely complex. I would have to say that the bill was about as arid as Ayers Rock or as dry as a fish\u2019s proverbial. Nevertheless, the committee members stuck with it. They made the effort to engage intellectually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI think the hazardous substances and new organisms legislation was put before the Education and Science Committee because of the GE legislation. Normally it would go to the Local Government and Environment Committee. But we know that that committee was chaired by Jeanette Fitzsimons of the Greens, which was a partner to Labour, but I think that they probably were not quite comfortable with putting it there, so because we had the word \u201CScience\u201D in our title they shoved it towards us. However, the members, I must admit, made a sterling effort to engage intellectually, and they made some sensible amendments as we went through. For example, new section 20A(2) inserted by clause 6 has been amended so that it is consistent with the items for which an exposure limit can be set, as specified in clause 17. It is absolutely stunning stuff, and I am sure the House agrees, but it is critical for ensuring the safety of New Zealanders in using hazardous substances, into the future. Nick Smith made a very good point about the example in England. The committee also tightened up some of the provisions. For example, it recommended an amendment to ensure that importers who bring unapproved hazardous substances into this country will be required to pay the full costs of re-exporting those materials. Hopefully, this will deter the fly-by-nighters who would endanger the well-being of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThere was one issue that the committee was unable to fully resolve within the scope we had. It was an issue brought to our attention by vets, and it was the conundrum they face in that some of the products they use are regulated by two, and in some cases three, different pieces of legislation. So they have three different regulatory frameworks, but in most cases only two, that they have to go through. Further work does need to be carried out on this particular issue by officials. Fortunately, the vets themselves saw the implementation of group standards as the next best option, so they were not dying in a ditch on the matter, which they so sensibly brought to the attention of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe second reading of this bill cannot be allowed to go through without a criticism of the management of the legislation. I believe that Nick Smith\u2019s criticisms are somewhat justified. This legislation should have been passed before the election for it to meet the time frames, and in fact a Supplementary Order Paper is now required to legitimise the actions of the ministry. This is simply not good enough, and it arose purely and simply from poor management of the work programme. A timetable has long been established as to when things have to be done. Otherwise, if they are not done within that time frame, we will have periods of time when we have no protections whatsoever. The Government, the Minister, and the ministry officials all knew what that timetable was. It is simply not good enough for officials to drop legislation and then put pressure on select committees to meet their timetable. It is certainly not all right for the Government to set report-back dates that require members to attend through January in order to meet those dates. It is certainly not all right to set report-back dates that do not allow the appropriate scrutiny of the legislation by the select committee\u2014something that we would not agree to, especially with the sorts of complex matters that need to be scrutinised in legislation such as the bill we are discussing. So I believe we can concur with the criticism of Nick Smith that the timing of this legislation and the timeliness with which it was brought to the House can be justifiably criticised by the House and by members of the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First, however, is pleased that it has been able to make a contribution to the legislation. We believe that the outcome will be to make New Zealand a more manageable and safer environment, and that has to be positive for our nation. In the end, whilst members brought up some flaws in the bill, I think it was unanimously agreed to by all parties on the select committee, and I think that possibly will be the outcome of the vote tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022dedc4be8915b4228ab35274f9ac8e5cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dedc4be8915b4228ab35274f9ac8e5cd\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that Mr Donnelly talked about the legislation being as dry as Ayers Rock, because I had a look at it and thought the same thing. The previous Minister for the Environment, Marian Hobbs, talked about a few things that I thought were interesting, to do with the whole administration of the legislation by regional councils. I fear that it will just impose another compliance cost that will be a burden on the ratepayer, like so many other things passed through this House. This bill is complex legislation that we need some time to digest. I would personally favour amending the whole Act, but I heard Mr Donnelly say that that might be quite a task. In speaking to this legislation I am following on from my learned colleagues Dr Hutchison and Dr Nick Smith, who have added a lot of value to the discussion here tonight. I agree with a comment made by Dr Smith that we have to work more closely with Australia to get this legislation through across the Tasman. It is also worth noting, as Dr Hutchison mentioned, and as you would know, Madam Assistant Speaker, from my farming background, that this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ca2db5bb5474066abd3ec9ed390acbf\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member but the time has come for me to leave the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20051213bb79b8c4207340e986d30440333b750a000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274c4c530cba74fd19d5a2ae67597676b\u0022\u003ETuesday, 13 December 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5015a3a5921419e91bbffb2dfcde5ed\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 14 December 2005)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0059368c8ff4375ac393acee6ce5014\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266294e4bd3894bb48beb36eec8213672\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u002297c5d5fd79c7493aa428c64dd26dc75e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297c5d5fd79c7493aa428c64dd26dc75e\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very complex bill. It contains a large number of amendments, is highly technical, and is very much a procedural matter. I was unfortunate not to be in the House for the first reading, or part of the Education and Science Committee, so I will not stand here and pretend I can talk at length about the details. But I have had the opportunity to read the bill, and I would like to highlight a couple of thoughts from the side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ELike any Act, the legislation is open to interpretation. I agree with the exposure limits set around the environmental exposure limits, the tolerable exposure limits, and the workplace exposure limits. I also agree with the type and nature of the group standards that will enable the Environmental Risk Management Authority to manage the risks. These set conditions will actually help manage them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EBut I would like everyone in the House to know that this is just another compliance cost. It was interesting to find that a Federated Farmers survey in 2004 projected that the cost to farmers of this legislation would be $100 million. That is what it will cost to transfer the agrichemicals\u2014the herbicides, the insecticides, and the fungicides\u2014across to this legislation. The cost to the arable farmers of this country is estimated to be $3,000 per year per farmer. For pastoral farmers\u2014and I see that Mr Bennett, a pastoral farmer from the Waikato, is in the House today\u2014the cost to their sector is estimated to be $2,000 per year per farmer. So this legislation will have significant costs across the board for our primary industries. Although we all know that our primary industries are the backbone of this country, we tend to forget that a little bit in the House. We in the primary industries get walloped by large taxes and by compliance costs that flow through from this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EAnother cost will be the certification costs to be an approved handler. Actually, to assess whether the candidates comply with the legislation is another cost. I am pleased to see that the Environmental Risk Management Authority is acknowledging that many of the people who handle these chemicals on a day-to-day basis are skilled in doing that, and that the authority will look at reducing the time involved in training. It is my understanding that farmers who deal with these chemicals on an ongoing basis\u2014many on a daily basis\u2014will not be required to sit a full-day course. I believe that is positive. They will still need to be certified. But I am conscious of the grandfathers out there spraying their tomatoes in their gardens, and the grandmothers spraying aphids in their rose gardens. I would not like to see their having to go through all this compliance in order to be certified to handle these chemicals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EOn the plus side, I was pleased to read that those who handle veterinary medicines\u2014as many, many farmers do on a daily basis\u2014do not need to be approved handlers. Thank goodness for that. Many, many farmers\u2014the backbone of this country\u2014drench their stock on a quarterly basis, and some even more often.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIn closing, I want to touch on some of the comments made by my colleagues last evening. I agree with Dr Nick Smith that we have to work more closely with Australia and get a common agreement. Also, I am mindful of the comments made by Brian Donnelly of New Zealand First last evening when he talked about it being tougher for the fly-by-nighters to be able to import toxic substances into this country. I am extremely supportive of that. Mr Hutchison, who has just joined me here on my left, also talked about the safety of the whole environment in relation to toxic substances, and I agree with what he said. I will be supporting these amendments, but I am also mindful of the costs. The primary industries are getting walloped by costs, and I am fearful that this is just another compliance cost going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u002290c593db69c64ae5b9dc12b4ed8fa6f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290c593db69c64ae5b9dc12b4ed8fa6f7\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will not be supporting this amendment bill, not because we are opposed to the concept of group standards, which are actually quite a sensible way to proceed\u2014contrary to what the previous speaker just said, this amendment does actually reduce costs and compliance for users of hazardous chemicals\u2014but because it is the final closing of a window of opportunity to make the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act work in the way it was originally intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI want to give the House a wee bit of history, because there may not be many people here whose memories go back quite so far. The Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act came out of considerable concern in the late 1980s and early 1990s that our system for managing hazardous substances was a mess. We had a raft of overlapping and inconsistent legislation, such as the Pesticides Act, the Toxic Substances Act, the Dangerous Goods Act, and numerous others, that imposed a sloppy, inconsistent, and not comprehensive regime on the management of hazardous substances. The Act was a very good idea. One of the things that led to that perception was the work I did in 1984 for the Auckland Regional Council on the management of hazardous activities in the Auckland region that showed up some of these legislative imperfections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EBe that as it may, the legislation was drafted to bring all hazardous substances under one umbrella, and to provide a process whereby substances that were already approved could be transferred across to the new legislation with new sets of conditions that brought them into the modern world, that were consistent with international practice, and that discovered and got rid of environmental risks in the process. That is exactly what has not happened, because the process since the Act was brought in has been for hazardous substances simply to be transferred from their old legislation across to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act without any major review of whether they should be registered at all, and with very little review of the conditions under which they should be registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWhat makes this worse is that this actually creates a right in perpetuity to use a particular substance, no matter what science might show in the future about its appropriateness, no matter what public opinion might be in the future about its appropriateness, and no matter what new chemicals might be found that would do a better job for less environmental cost. The problem is that once this regime is complete\u2014once the substances are transferred and are under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act\u2014the substances cannot be reviewed by the Environmental Risk Management Authority except at huge cost to the public purse. This Act is supposed to parallel the Resource Management Act, which gives planning permission for certain actions that affect the environment. But under the Resource Management Act the maximum length of time that one can have a consent is 35 years. Under this Act it is forever. Once a person obtains permission to use, say DDT\u2014it is not used any longer\u2014it is forever, and the only way that can be changed is totally at the cost of the public purse. I do not think Michael Cullen realises the costs to the Crown that are being imposed by this regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThere was an opportunity here, and this was put to the Education and Science Committee and to the Minister for the Environment\u2014I put it to the Minister myself\u2014to provide that if there is not time for the Environmental Risk Management Authority to review properly all the substances that are in transition, then they should be given short-term registration under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, and a review provided at the expense of the applicants. They could be given 10 years, and after that time the authority could at its discretion roll over the consent, or it could decide that it is one that needs to be looked at, and needs to go through a review at the expense of the applicant. That has not happened, despite all the arguments that were put to the Minister and to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThat means that one of two things will happen. One is that old chemicals that are no longer appropriate, without the conditions that are appropriate in the modern world, without international best practice, will continue to be registered and used here in preference to the new ones coming on the market internationally, because new ones coming on the market internationally will have to be registered, at the cost of the applicant, whereas the old ones just carry on regardless. New Zealand is a small market. We cannot expect innovative chemicals that might have lower environmental costs but do the same job to be registered here if the applicants have to pay, but they do not have to pay for a reassessment of the old, out-of-date chemicals. So this measure will stifle innovation, and will increase risk to the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe alternative is that the Environmental Risk Management Authority will conduct a number of reassessments at a cost to the Crown of probably something in the order of $1 million every time it happens, because it is a public process, and it is not funded to do that. So either there will be some big Budget bids from the authority, which will make Michael Cullen blanch, in order to review a number of these chemicals, which the authority already knows ought to be reviewed, and which the authority already knows are under unsuitable conditions or should be deregistered\u2014either there will be that cost to the Crown\u2014or the risk to the environment will continue. There could have been an easy remedy in this bill: the consents could have been time limited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe also have this absurd contradiction where the Ministry for the Environment has advised the Minister that this bill has got to get through before Christmas because there is a time limit in the Act that everything has to be transferred by July next year. The legislation needs to go through so that the Environmental Risk Management Authority can do them in groups, because it cannot meet that deadline otherwise. And we have advice from the Environmental Risk Management Authority that the deadline cannot be met, anyway. In its briefing to the incoming Minister it said that the July deadline will have to be extended. So if the July deadline has to be extended, why are we rushing this bill through before Christmas, and why are we not having a good look at giving time-limited consents rather than perpetual property rights to pollute?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI note that the Supplementary Order Paper that we have picked up this morning does not actually extend the time limit from July next year, so I am wondering whether we will get a second Supplementary Order Paper to do that, or whether the Environmental Risk Management Authority\u2019s advice that it cannot do it by July is being disregarded\u2014in which case, what kind of mess are we going to be in? There is going to be even less scrutiny as the authority transfers all these substances across in huge haste without any proper look at the conditions under which they are registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe are talking here about the sorts of substances that cause long-term human illness, that cause long-term environmental harm, if they are not used properly and if people are exposed to them when they should not be. It is always a Faustian bargain where humans use dangerous chemicals for useful purposes, but how much environmental risk does one accept in doing that? Obviously, this regime aims to make sure that the most lethal substances are not registered at all, that the most environmentally appropriate ones for the purpose are registered, and that the set of conditions under which they are registered gives one maximum protection for the environment. This measure is not going to do that. This means that the old Pesticides Act, the old Toxic Substances Act, and the old Hazardous Goods Act live on in disguise under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, because substances have been transferred to the new legislation with the conditions set under the old legislation, and we do not really have a new, comprehensive, modern regime for hazardous substances, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u00226b84b9ad03eb432388d6cfd0edd3c50c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b84b9ad03eb432388d6cfd0edd3c50c\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E I stand today considering the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill within the context of kaupapa and tikanga M\u0101ori. As the caretakers of Ranginui and Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, we have the responsibility to care for and to actively protect the environment, which includes our wh\u0101nau, and the flora and fauna that clothes this land of ours. It is a question of values and of preferences, and it is a question of what we are willing to pay to ensure that this country we call Aotearoa maintains its ability to be clean and green. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe aim of the bill is to improve the workability of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, and it includes specific proposals to address enforcement and regulation of tolerable exposure limits and environmental exposure limits, and groups various substances together. These are issues of prime importance to us in our commitment towards ensuring genuine progress for the management and care of the environment. In this regard we have been supportive of the concept of a genuine progress index, which is current in both the international scene and in initiatives being considered by a number of local authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe genuine progress indicator distinguishes between positive contributions to progress, ensuring that toxins and hazardous substances are strictly tested and regulated, and negative activity\u2014the polluting of our land, our waterways, and our people. What has it cost this country in terms of the health, or is it the ill-health, of the land, the waterways, and the people? Would it not be more cost-effective to ensure that in regard to pollution and the use of toxins, the effect of which is not clearly known, there is thorough testing before availability for widespread use? Do I need to remind anyone in this House of what happened on the night of 2 December 1984 to the hundreds and thousands of people who were devastated as a result of the activities of the Union Carbide plant in Bhopal, Central India? It is over 20 years since tank 610 spewed out a deadly cocktail of methyl isocynate and 23 other chemicals manifest in a cloud of poisonous gas. Those injured by the gas are indistinguishable from those who escaped. Their lungs and immune systems suffered, but apart from eye problems such as cataracts they received few visible injuries, unlike the victims of other disasters such as those caused by thalidomide or Agent Orange. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EGovernment officials say that around 6,600 died from the effects of the gas, and 350,000 were injured. But local pressure groups put the death toll at 16,000 and say that up to 600,000 people were injured. Powerful commercial interests ensured that those workers were denied justice. In many cases throughout the world we have seen just how those with interests in the chemical and toxic industry, who in my view should have been prosecuted for the hundreds of thousands of people whom they have maimed, have been protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe do not have to look very far here at home to see the evidence of other tragic examples. In the Waiariki electorate Sawmill Workers Against Poisons have led the charge against those responsible for the chemicals that workers handled throughout their sawmill careers from the 1960s to the 1980s. The worst chemical of the lot, pentachlorophenol, or \u201CPCP\u201D, was used to prevent sap stain, a fungal infection in freshly sawn timber, from the 1960s right through to 1988. It was absorbed through the skin of many workers, affecting various systems in the body. The dioxins in pentachlorophenol are toxic, causing health problems from severe skin rashes to liver damage and possible cancer. The members of Sawmill Workers Against Poisons say that they have been exposed to 48 chemicals throughout their working lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party will stand, and continue to stand, strong, until we can see action to address the inexplicable cancers, ulcers, and other health conditions suffered by those who work the forestry and sawmill sites contaminated by pentachlorophenol. This could be immediate and simple, such as providing full, free, and regular medical check-ups for ex - sawmill workers from the Whakat\u0101ne, Kawerau, Kinleith, and Waip\u0101 sawmills and their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EAs the member for Te Tai Hauauru, I am also painfully aware of the need for urgent action to address the adverse health effects such as cancers and birth deformities reported from Taranaki residents living near the Ivon Watkins-Dow, now Dow AgroSciences, chemical plant in Paritutu. It is an outrage that the last Government report into cancer rates in New Plymouth released just 2 days ago by the Ministry of Health failed to follow a robust process to ensure that any findings as to what happened in Paritutu would have any integrity. This report released 2 days ago, sadly, does not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ELast September a report released by the same ministry confirmed that the Ivon Watkins-Dow plant at Paritutu was one of the largest historical polluters in New Zealand. The ministry chose to ignore the recommendations that for any study about Paritutu to be valid one would have to identify the actual residents who were exposed and track them down. Instead the study adopted a scatter-gun approach towards testing anyone in New Plymouth. A responsible approach would have tracked down the families who were exposed at key periods in the 1970s. Many of these families have now shifted away but the impact of their compromised health will remain, and of course many have died. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EHere we are today talking about the approvals and enforcement required to ensure that hazardous substances and new organisms undergo rigorous and consistent assessment prior to entry into New Zealand, something that the management of Ivon Watkins-Dow plant failed to do. My constituents have repeatedly asked the Government to take seriously the health problems that have resulted from dioxin contamination, including birth defects, behavioural problems, diabetes, and a strong association between exposure to dioxin, and cancer risk. We are talking about a period of 30 years of neglect. Perhaps, as Ross Wilson, the President of the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, has previously suggested, it might be time to introduce a corporate manslaughter provision in our criminal law so that offenders can be held to account. How many lives have been lost? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ESadly, corporates, which are not socially responsible entities, have a reputation of denying any responsibility for products that they may use to increase what they refer to as the return to the shareholder. The shareholder must be our society and its citizens, not just those who invested in a corporate entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe still have issues with the bill, including the basis of the groupings for group standards. The rationale for having group standards is so that we can save $2 million. It would be of great interest to the M\u0101ori Party if this Parliament were able to be briefed using the Land Transport New Zealand\u2019s \u201Cvalue of a statistical life\u201D calculation about the real benefits\u2014the genuine progress\u2014that we can expect from this new measure. This calculation estimated that each suicide cost a total of $2,931,250. That is the statistical value of one life. When one considers the number of lives that have been lost or seriously affected as a result of what happened at Paritutu and Whakat\u0101ne, the impact of Agent Orange on Viet Nam vets, the impact on those naval personnel involved in supporting the British atmospheric tests at Christmas and Malden Islands during Operation Grapple, and on all their descendants and families, $2 million is a minuscule amount to be saving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThese communities deserve to have effective health-care in recognition of the disastrous impact of the corporate manslaughter that they have endured and which many Governments have turned a blind eye to. This country must never allow to ever occur again such damage to its citizens, to its land, or to its environment, whether by accident or design. To this end, we live in hope that socially responsible behaviour will be encouraged by this bill; that people will not knowingly attempt to import products that they know are hazardous substances, which put the health of the citizens and the environment at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9ac1e2e9a4645378a22a645ab14f45f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022089287cda7794d6e8d47916747aa09bd\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Parts 1, 4, 4A, 5, and 6 of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022f649c599f086470489bef6fb19b00671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f649c599f086470489bef6fb19b00671\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Some people are finding the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill somewhat droll. Indeed, it is a very technical bill. New clause 8A, \u201CProhibition of storage of persistent organic pollutants\u201D, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 5 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope, reads: \u201CSection 25B(2)(a) of the principal Act is amended by omitting the words \u2018(other than polychlorinated biphenyls)\u2019.\u201D I have no doubt that it is wise and appropriate that those substances are included on the list, because they indeed pose both environmental and personal hazards. That is the sort of thing we have to listen to; it is typical of the detail of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENational has reservations about the bill for certain reasons, which are particularly associated with the compliance costs. But when we looked at issues such as clause 12, which inserts new section 49L, \u201CRapid assessment and approval of other hazardous substances in special emergencies\u201D, we saw that, like most of the submitters, we were in absolute agreement that that is appropriate in a variety of situations, particularly when the biosecurity of our country is threatened. There have been a variety of examples where that has been a major problem. The other night I commented on the bee varroa mite, which is endemic in New Zealand and which was not detected by anyone until it had become thoroughly entrenched in New Zealand. The Labour Government decided to abandon any eradication programme, and the beekeepers then realised that they were absolutely dependent on the availability of a miticide to protect their hives. Unfortunately, due to the existing legislation, it was impossible for them to bring anything in, so, in the words of Federated Farmers, they had to \u201Ceyeball the Minister\u201D very hard and solidly before special agreements were made to bring in the appropriate miticide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other point about new section 49L is that if we were to have a major outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease or have a similar biological catastrophe, it is absolutely vital that we in New Zealand have access to the world\u2019s best available treatment for such conditions, and this provision would make that possible. That sort of thing is relevant to the reason why we in the National Party support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOf course, the bill does have considerable limitations, and for once I am in agreement with Jeanette Fitzsimons that there are some worries about the fact that the transferral will mean that something like 110,000 toxic substances are registered in perpetuity, without any provision for a review\u2014as there would be, for instance, under the Resource Management Act after 35 years. What happens when the substances are transferred in groups is that many of them have never undergone any risk assessment whatsoever. Although a clause in the bill allows for the revocation of the registration of a substance, I understand that the Environmental Risk Management Authority has pointed out that it simply does not have the resources to undertake a full risk assessment of some of the more complicated toxic compounds. In fact, it has said that to do a thorough risk assessment would cost in the order of $1 million, given that there are 110,000 toxic substances. Even if only 40 or 50 of those substances required an appropriate risk assessment, the authority simply does not have the resources to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002227c39f297c8a46d2988717406d5ba915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227c39f297c8a46d2988717406d5ba915\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to talk about Part 1 of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. There is no doubt at all in my mind that the issue of hazardous substances is of utmost national importance. It is important to the economy of our country, and it is important for our farming and primary production industries. We must be proud, too, of the clean, green image that we currently have in New Zealand, and we certainly must jealously guard that image. But we must also be sensible. We must be sensible in our approaches to legislating, and we must be sensible in our approaches to restricting certain substances. Many substances, as we all know, are harmless, but they are hazardous in the wrong hands. Are we legislating for those wrong hands, or are we legislating for the substances that are, indeed, harmful? How does one legislate for that without unnecessarily restricting the industries on which our economy so much depends? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EPart 1 refers to substances in containment. Again, we must be very mindful of our biosecurity issues. We must protect our borders, not only from biosecurity incursions but also in terms of immigration. I am concerned and appalled at some of the very slow, delayed reactions of the Government to incursions in relation to biosecurity issues. We have only to look at the fiasco in relation to didymo and \u201Crock snot\u201D. To know that all our South Island waters have now been classified as ridden with didymo is, I think, an appalling state for our country to be in, and as a South Islander I am absolutely appalled. It is totally negligent of the Government to have delayed for so long in relation to that incursion. I am concerned that the same will happen with this bill. Although we must protect against incursions, we also must be sensible. I am concerned that the bill has the impact of perhaps regulating against Sellotape, against Mr Muscle, and against window cleaner, and I think that is a ridiculous state of affairs. To say that those things are hazardous is absolutely absurd and ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EBut even more than that, we have to look at the compliance costs to our agricultural and other industries. The transportation of certain hazardous substances, which cannot be transported in the same vehicle as non-hazardous substances, only adds to the compliance costs for our farming industry. If we are trying to transport goods from Invercargill to Canterbury, and there has to be separate trucks and separate transports, then I think we have to be very sensible and balance the compliance cost against the safety issue. That is where the National Party and I have reservations in relation to the bill. We must be very careful to ensure that this is sensible law-making, and that it is balanced and responsible, and not reckless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002248451c704647407da060235a51f9e5ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248451c704647407da060235a51f9e5ec\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Kate Wilkinson for that excellent insight, and I also thank Nathan Guy, who gave a very good address this morning in relation to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221505d3d55a784f7694bdd3231d7bfae4\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re all greasing each other up! It\u2019s the mutual appreciation society!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224494c6ad044f416faa9bada57e1a6de7\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The soon to be relieved member for Otaki needs to listen to his esteemed colleague from that region in order to learn something about the practical implications of farming. As a farmer with a farming business, I point out that it is important to see that a bill like this can be very PC and very appropriate for a Government to put in place, but the reality is that small-business people and the people who actually make the money that makes this place tick will have to pay for it in compliance costs and in meeting the obligations of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAs a practical farming element, a key thing is that people will now find they have to get authorisation to travel with chemicals in their vehicles. So if they go into an RD1 store, for example, and buy chemicals, they will have to get a form saying they can transport them back to their farms. Those kinds of compliance issues are very difficult for individual property owners, and farmers in particular, to comply with, especially if they have staff who may go in to pick up such requirements, and other issues such as that. Also, farmers have to sign certain forms all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EFederated Farmers have made a number of submissions on the compliance costs of the bill, and it is important to look at those. They have calculated $100 million in direct costs, and over $3 million in record-keeping and documentation costs. So we are talking about substantial compliance costs that have been identified. That will impact on all sectors, especially the arable sector. That is especially because larger farms are more prominent these days, and more chemicals are stored on those farms. Compliance costs for arable farmers were estimated at over $3,000, and for pastoral farmers at over $2,000. So we are putting substantial costs on to small businesses that are struggling under a very high dollar, which is a result of the Government\u2019s policies in respect of such things as interest rates and student loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EFederated Farmers also identified some potential problems from this kind of legislation. They include things like: costs falling on industry or representative organisations; additional certification costs, if employees are required to buy these products; increased agrichemical product prices; risks associated with any public access to farms\u2014and if the Government goes ahead with its proposals in this regard, it could create another risk for people going on to properties, and also for farmers\u2014the complexity and cost of applications to the Environmental Risk Management Authority; the cost of resource applications to regional authorities; and compliance with regional plans. So the compliance costs are not just limited to the individual farmers; they actually go through the whole community. They are taken up in our regional and local government, and therefore those compliance costs will be passed on to individuals through their rates bills. So we have to be mindful that this measure is not just about the farming community; it will be a compliance cost on all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EA point raised by the Green Party was quite interesting. It is in relation to the cost of existing chemicals as against new ones. Although we do not want to put a lot of costs on to existing chemicals that have been proved to be effective, the Green Party raised the very good point that we need to be proactive in looking for future opportunities in any chemical or biosecurity field. To put additional costs on the new, latest technology can be detrimental to our undertaking those kinds of technological developments, and that is not in the best interests of New Zealand agriculture, which has been a leader over many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo, in essence, the problem with the bill is that it significantly increases costs and controls on the farming sector\u2014both arable and pastoral farmers\u2014and will require stringent controls. There could be significant ongoing and potential costs, and there will be increasing bureaucracy and red tape. That is a serious burden on New Zealand businesses that are trying to get ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00220778f319f4f8420f8fc8dee25036888a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220778f319f4f8420f8fc8dee25036888a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am grateful for the opportunity to take another call on Part 1 of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. As I said earlier on, this is indeed a very technical amendment bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI must congratulate my colleague David Bennett, who is a farmer of considerable experience\u2014not only a farmer but also a lawyer and an accountant. He has pointed out the hugely important concerns that Federated Farmers have in respect of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. That Act, in itself, has a total set-up cost for compliance, as estimated by the Federated Farmers, of about $105 million. That leads to about $3,000 per average arable farm, and, I believe, about $2,230 per average farm. The claim, however, is that this bill will save, in terms of the transfer of the 70,000-odd notifiable toxic substances, about $2 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is good to see the Minister, the Hon David Benson-Pope, is in the chair. He will be able to explain to us whether he agrees that this amendment bill will actually achieve the savings that the Labour Government purports it will. There is absolutely no mechanism anywhere in this bill to suggest that the Government is interested in monitoring the outcomes of its efficacy. That is typical of the Labour Government\u2019s lack of consideration of costs that affect New Zealand\u2019s small, medium, and large businesses. The Government goes in, makes an amendment, thinks the amendment is wonderful and talks about it in glowing terms, comes up with a very superficial impact report, and then fails to ensure that the amendment is monitored for its efficacy. I hope that Minister Benson-Pope will take a call to tell us what mechanisms this Government has in place to ensure that the transfer of substances is done successfully and in a cost-effective way that will in future save businesses, farmers, and manufacturers throughout the country an appropriate amount of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe received Supplementary Order Paper 5 just yesterday\u2014as always, the Labour Government brings in important legislation at the last minute. The Minister is shaking his head. This legislation has been an issue for the last 2 to 3 years, and here we are, in the last 48 hours of the parliamentary calendar for this year, suddenly bringing through a very important bill of a highly technical nature that has huge implications for the environmental sustainability of New Zealand. The Minister has come up with a Supplementary Order Paper that, for example, proposes new clause 8A, \u201CProhibition of storage of persistent organic pollutants\u201D, which states: \u201CSection 25B(2)(a) of the principal Act is amended by omitting the words \u2018(other than polychlorinated biphenyls)\u2019.\u201D I ask the Minister whether he can describe to me in detail the concerns around polychlorinated biphenyls. It certainly sounds to me as though it is sensible that those substances are on the register, but does the Minister know the details of this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think that the Minister probably does not know those details, because with this transfer he is placing all those toxic substances\u2014110,000 of them\u2014on a register in perpetuity. There is, certainly, a clause that provides for the revocation of registration, but we understand that it would cost in the order of $1 million to carry out an appropriate risk management assessment. The Environmental Risk Management Authority just does not have that $1 million. I challenge the Minister to tell us whether the authority is worried about ensuring, when some of those toxic substances prove to be of concern and it thinks a risk management assessment should take place, the resources for that will be available from the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 5 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to to insert new clauses 8A and 12A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c39962ceeb4b4d3b8b0e6fa0239519b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 111\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e65149e4e8854499b36fd2801b91b61b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 111\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223dd6bb2c40ba478eb35071e152b1dff8\u0022\u003EPart 2  New Part 6A inserted in principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022deb81b743220460fb0b30605df0c6fb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deb81b743220460fb0b30605df0c6fb5\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Certainly, Part 2 is really the nub of this amendment bill. It deals with group standards. As section 96A, inserted by clause 20, states: \u201CThe purpose of this Part is to enable the Authority to issue, amend, and revoke standards (known as group standards) for groups of hazardous substances \u2026 that have a similar nature, are of a similar type, or have similar circumstances of use, so that the risks of the grouped hazardous substances can be effectively managed by 1 set of conditions.\u201D In many respects, that concept has been supported widely by the industry. I understand, though I was not on the Education and Science Committee, that the 26-odd submitters to the committee certainly agreed that the concept was quite appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is important to point out what the general policy statement in the explanatory note of the first copy of the bill brought to the House stated regarding that concept. It stated that the bill complements the amendments passed in March 2004 that addressed the urgent workability issues relating to the transfer of hazardous substances, and that it offers a means to reduce costs to businesses and the Government, and to reduce barriers to innovation, while not compromising appropriate management of risks. That is where the Labour Government needs to be taken to task, because of its track record. We know that this Labour Government has, over the last 5 to 6 years, an abysmal record in terms of adding costs to businesses and individuals right throughout the country\u2014not only in terms of taxation and through the Resource Management Act but certainly through the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThis group standard provision is, indeed, one of the mechanisms by which the Government is hopeful that costs will be minimised. Once again I ask the Minister in the chair, David Benson-Pope, to take a call to tell us what mechanisms he has in place to ensure that the standards will be effective, that costs will be lower, and that the New Zealand public will be safe under the mechanism of transference in groups rather than as individual substances, when many of these substances have never had an appropriate risk management assessment. I hope the Minister is listening to this. I hope he will stand up and state whether the Labour Government will assure New Zealanders that transferring these substances in groups will indeed be good for the environmental sustainability of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E Can he also tell us just how much it will cost the Environmental Risk Management Authority to make the appropriate risk management assessment? Will it be up to $1 million, as we are led to believe by the authority? How many substances, potentially, may require risk management assessment per year\u2014is it five, is it ten, or is it 15, which would mean $5 million, $10 million, or $15 million? And will the Government make sure that those funds are indeed available to the authority? I hope the Minister takes note of those issues, and can indeed reassure the New Zealand public that those questions will be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think one of the other points that it is important to focus on is the submission brought to us by the Sustainability Council. In the submission the council said that New Zealand had not learnt sufficiently from its historical mismanagement of hazardous substances. It went on to say that failure to regulate adequately in the past had left a billion-dollar bill for the clean-up of contaminated sites that should be acting as a burning incentive to implement best practice for future activities. The council said that that issue had not been squarely confronted, and I am led to believe that the Labour Government once again has not squarely confronted that hugely important issue. Instead of agreeing that it will be the one to ensure the clean-up is paid for, it has put the cost on to individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2cac57dcb364a99b7abdc473a568a75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2cac57dcb364a99b7abdc473a568a75\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Dr Hutchison for the contribution he has made and the assistance of his party in correcting, or bringing to fruition, this legislation\u2014which, of course, was introduced by his Government in 1996, with Nick Smith as Minister. So it is appropriate that National is helping us to make the corrections and policy adjustments needed to meet the transfer deadline of 30 June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question raised earlier about polychlorinated biphenyls, I ask the Chair\u2019s indulgence to explain. Dr Hutchison is apparently not aware that the reason for that clause in the Supplementary Order Paper is to enable the collection of polychlorinated biphenyls and their removal offshore. There is a legal circularity that needed to be corrected, which is one of the key things the Supplementary Order Paper does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIn terms of the reassessment process, I am absolutely confident that only the number of materials that need to be recommitted will be. I think that will be an open-ended question for the Environmental Risk Management Authority, and I am sure that the funding and budgetary arguments around that will be made to me very aggressively. I am also confident that that mechanism provides for the revisiting of any concerns that people may have about an individual application or approval, or a group standard, as new knowledge becomes available. I believe that that meets the concern expressed to me by the Green Party about the desire for a rotational re-approval process, which we believe would be extraordinarily unproductive\u2014because there is no intellectual property involved in the consent itself, of course\u2014and extremely costly. So, yes, I believe I can give the member the assurance he is asking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI am also happy to assure him that the discussion about the funding and the delivery capacity of the Environmental Risk Management Authority will be robust as we move into the next Budget round, and one of the issues I am concerned about as a consequence of this bill is that we do have the capacity in our communities\u2014with no added cost to local government, if that can be achieved\u2014to ensure enforcement of the regulations we are passing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002295ab8d204f1e4eacbc9ef94d91cd4628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295ab8d204f1e4eacbc9ef94d91cd4628\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a call on Part 2, and particularly on some elements of clause 20, which make some significant amendments to the whole process of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. I thank the Minister for his contribution. He responded to some issues on which we do have some concerns. I do not think there is any doubt that any reasonable and considered position would say that we must adopt a best-practice approach in giving assurance to the process of using hazardous substances. Although it may be our desire to minimise or have no involvement with hazardous substances, that simply is not practical. They are a part of several elements of New Zealand\u2019s production systems. They are certainly used right through the primary production system, and in industry and a whole range of places. So it is essential that we can say we have a reasoned process\u2014a process that is robust and withstands scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWe certainly want to support some elements in clause 20 going forward, so we are here to support the legislation today. But we have some questions. One implication of any legislation like this is the cost of compliance. The more we seek to create a trace-back or an audit process, or to give an assurance, the greater the implication is that users will have to comply, and in compliance there is a time cost and in some ways a financial cost. For example, I found to my surprise about 18 months ago, when going into a service agency to purchase some chemicals, that I was required to sit a test to certify I was an appropriate person to purchase those chemicals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022434036255a9c449ca51bd1dedc8b8c4e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member pass the test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaaf1ad46e7247b9af2c29915beb1be0\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I cheated\u2014not really; I am joking. But we just go on and on, and in the assurance process we have to comply with a whole lot of things for a practice some of us have been involved in for a long, long time. Yet we need to have some kind of certification in order to give that assurance. That has implications in terms of cost and a whole lot of difficulties surrounding what has been normal practice. It makes for a level of grumpiness in the consumers of the products concerned, so we need to be absolutely assured that we are taking them with us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI just draw the Minister\u2019s attention to new, unanimous subsection (6) of section 96C, inserted by clause 20. It states: \u201CAs soon as practicable after issuing, amending, or revoking a group standard, the Authority must do the following:\u201D, and the notification elements in the provision then follow. I wonder why there is the phrase \u201CAs soon as practicable \u2026\u201D. I would have thought that notification would be an element in establishing the new group standards. I wonder whether the Minister could take a call and explain to us why there is not some immediacy about that. We live in a very vibrant landscape in the hazardous substances and new organisms area, where things are moving, and keeping up to speed with all of the changes is a significant issue. So I would like an explanation as to why there is that sort of little step back, in that there is an out that may not have immediacy associated with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI am encouraged though, on looking through a number of the subsections in that particular provision, to see that there is a test, because one of the concerns I have regarding the compliance issue is that we have tended to just make changes for the sake of change. So I am pleased to see the test that applies in some of the new, unanimous provisions in clause 20. For example, subsection (1) of new section 96D, inserted by clause 20, states: \u201C\u2026 (a) in the case of any hazardous substance \u2026 to which section 96C(1A)(a) applies,\u201D the authority must \u201Cbe satisfied that issuing or amending (as the case may be) \u2026\u201D. So we actually have the test that there is to be an advancement\u2014an improvement. I am not sure about the factors that surround the decision on whether there is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00221e3e8c50fea6457e92ffebef5b026e2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e3e8c50fea6457e92ffebef5b026e2c\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to clause 20, I say it is interesting to look at what the group standards allow, because there are two different ways in which this happens. Section 96A in clause 20 states the purpose is \u201Cto issue, amend, and revoke standards \u2026 for groups of hazardous substances \u2026 that have a similar nature, are of a similar type, or have similar circumstances of use, so that the risks of the grouped hazardous substances can be effectively managed by 1 set of conditions.\u201D A number of submitters did recognise that there was, perhaps, a saving in that regard\u2014that it would not increase compliance costs but would actually reduce them. It is a bit of a surprise that the current Government has come up with something that might be useful, but perhaps it was the participation of the National members on the select committee that brought that about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe Environmental Risk Management Authority issues group standards by notice in the Gazette, and a notice is a regulation for the purposes of the Regulations (Disallowance) Act 1989, but is not a regulation for the purposes of the Acts and Regulations Publication Act 1989. As a consequence, group standards are a type of instrument commonly referred to as deemed regulations, and are subject to the following requirements: presentation to the House within 16 days of being made, scrutiny by the Regulations Review Committee, and disallowance. So I guess that raises the question about their being issued within a reasonable time frame, which was mentioned by my esteemed colleague Eric Roy. He made a fantastic contribution, and it was very perceptive of him to have picked that one up. So there is a time frame around when that notification is required to be made. Group standards would not be subject to other requirements that apply to statutory regulations, which include drafting by parliamentary counsel, Cabinet approval, and inclusion in the statutory regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ESo, yes, this move will reduce the costs to industry by lowering the number of applications businesses would have to make to the Environmental Risk Management Authority, which is a good thing, and it will provide simpler prescriptive alternatives to the technical controls and regulations, which have been difficult to implement to date. In turn, that will give industry a lot more certainty on exactly how to comply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EBut there was some concern about consultation with affected parties, and a recommendation was made around that issue to ensure that industry and other affected parties have an opportunity to comment during the development of group standards. I am unsure whether that is actually being considered and recognised within the provisions of this bill, so perhaps the Minister might like to take a call and let members know whether he has supported the ability for affected parties to be part of the consultative process in the establishment of group standards. Of course, that move will result in a more robust outcome, which is what we all want to see, as it helps to encourage compliance in the industry. So I hope those concerns are noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EOne of the other concerns raised was the duplication of the Resource Management Act with regard to group standards for regulating waste that has hazardous characteristics. As was mentioned in one of the submissions, under section 31 of the Resource Management Act territorial authorities are required to control any actual or potential effects of the use, development, or protection of land, including the implementation of rules for the prevention or mitigation of any adverse effects of the storage, use, disposal, or transportation of hazardous substances. The Resource Management Act has a broad definition of \u201Chazardous substance\u201D, which includes but is not limited to any substance defined as a \u201Chazardous substance\u201D in section 2 of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996. Therefore, that definition would include imported and manufactured hazardous substances registered under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, but would not be limited to them. So that whole section of the Resource Management Act refers to hazardous substances, and we now have the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. Perhaps the Minister might like to take a call to clarify that relationship between the two Acts, so that the responsibilities and the use are clearly defined, because we do not want to see any confusion about who is responsible for what and where. I think it is very important that those matters are clarified, and perhaps the Minister could take a call on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIt is pretty disappointing that the opportunity was not taken during the process of this bill to perhaps streamline some of the provisions for increasing our biodiversity in this country, because we cannot develop our entrepreneurial skills in our agricultural sector if we cannot import.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022386b492e160d4cb4b208634467f29418\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022386b492e160d4cb4b208634467f29418\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take this opportunity to speak to Part 2 of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, but before doing that, I want to review the purpose of the bill. This bill aims to improve the workability of the hazardous substances provisions of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. When I was doing some research prior to this, people were telling me that it was a droll bill to be considering, but as a new member of Parliament I thought that the hazardous substances may have had more to do with recalcitrant members of this House. But, as time went on and as I looked through the pages of the bill, I did not see the names of Rodney Hide or Winston Peters there. So as I got deeper into the research on the bill, I found it had more to do with chemicals and a vast variety of other hazardous substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EPutting that aside, let us look at Part 2, which provides for the insertion of a new Part 6A, \u201CGroup standards\u201D, into the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. Today I would like to address five areas within Part 2. Firstly, I will address new section 96C, regarding the notification of group standards, and, secondly, new section 96D, regarding the issuing of group standards; thirdly, I would like to focus on the efficient and effective management of group standards, in new section 96D, which is a very key issue; fourthly, I will look at the most effective means of dealing with the standard, which is in new section 96D(1)(b); and, lastly, I will focus on considering the best use of group standards in terms of international practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI turn firstly to new section 96C to look at group standards in general, and the issue of group standards. I believe that this provision, which allows group standards to be put by notice into the Gazette, will improve the efficiency with which we are able to bring hazardous substances into the marketplace generally. I think it will speed up the process significantly, and will allow for our farmers, our manufacturers, and our entire economy to put hazardous substances into the marketplace quicker, which is generally a good thing for the Act and for the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI move to new section 96D, which covers when group standards may be issued or amended, and I will focus on new section 96D(1)(a), which provides that the authority must be satisfied that issuing or amending group standards is a more efficient and effective way of managing the risks of all hazardous substances. I think it is a very important point that before those substances are brought into the marketplace, the Environmental Risk Management Authority, which is responsible for making the decisions, seriously takes heed of this particular point. In issuing group standards, it must be certain that there is a more efficient and effective way of managing the risks posed by those substances. New section 96D, which provides that the authority must be satisfied that issuing or amending group standards is a more efficient and effective way of managing the risks of those hazards, is pointless. All that provision does is to increase the bureaucracy and the costs of bringing those materials into the marketplace, rather than improve the ease of bringing new hazardous materials into the marketplace, which would allow our businesses to be innovative and grow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI move to new section 96D(1)(b), the fourth point I will focus on, which states: \u201C(i) the benefits associated with a reduction of environmental and health risks outweigh the economic costs associated with complying with the group standard;\u201D. That is a very important point. When we bring new hazardous substances into the marketplace we should consider whether they will have a much better economic benefit for our farmers or for ourselves. So bringing them in is as important an issue as the compliance costs or the regulations that we put on bringing those hazardous substances into the marketplace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ELastly, I would like to focus on new section 96D(d), which raises a point that Nick Smith brought up early in the debate on this bill. When we bring in hazardous substances, we need to focus on the best international practices and standards for the safe management of hazardous substances. I think that point, out of anything, is very important. Nick Smith talked a lot about having joint standards across New Zealand and Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8b0ff7f9a9d46e89d67909c2ef0408a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8b0ff7f9a9d46e89d67909c2ef0408a\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to talk to Part 2. In particular, I would like to bring to the attention of members section 96D(1)(b)(i), inserted by clause 20, which states: \u201Cthe benefits associated with a reduction of environmental and health risks outweigh the economic costs associated with complying with the group standard;\u201D. That is a significant point. What it means, I believe, is that although we have to be mindful of the environment, that comes at a cost. I think we all need to be very much aware of that. If this amending legislation goes through today, it will actually come at a cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to hear the Minister talk, when he took a call, about whether there is actually a time line for a review. I cannot see it anywhere in this document, and I think that is significant. It sounds to me\u2014and Dr Hutchison agrees\u2014as though this legislation is a bit like an experiment. Where is the review? Will it happen in 2008? Will it happen in 2010? Or will it never happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238929db41444459b8f589af3d7c7aab5\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Or will it happen after a disaster?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022136db7a7f5964a208c3b5d5e8a0938e1\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, Dr Hutchison; that is a very valid point. I believe that we actually need to think seriously about putting a date in here for a review, so that this experiment does not go wonky and end up becoming a disaster for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258a27a90fb874ec0b154120bb2b5a823\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: You had better make sure that they do not change the results, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f519b1d5d84328b84e92fe352ff850\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly right. The member from the Waikato has some first-hand experience with the hazardous substances legislation as a farmer, and he knows that this amendment will be extremely costly on his business and on the businesses of his peers, right across New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ESo I say again that I believe we need to be very cautious about this experiment. We should consider the efficacy around the bill and how it could potentially be costly and cumbersome for this country. We know that the costs will flow from the importer through to the retailer, and on to the end-user. I talked about that previously\u2014about the costs and about how farmers will bear the brunt of them. The costs will be passed down, when the legislation is passed in this Parliament, without thinking about the end-user. We know it will cost another $3,000 for arable farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWe have heard about $2 million of savings here today, but I cannot see where the $2 million of savings are. Where are they? The member for Rangitikei, who, I believe, might have sat on the Education and Science Committee, knows that is an issue. Where are the $2 million of savings? I cannot see them. It would be great for the Minister to take a call and outline to a back-bench MP where the $2 million of savings are, so I can actually understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15d7a6e159746708c74a239a237adb0\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276fd3c78b7724f77a62a8e052d026221\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure whether he does. That is why I would be quite keen for him to take a call and explain to me where the $2 million of savings are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWhat I can see is that we need to be mindful of protecting the environment and of the sustainability of this thing. But this legislation will lead to extra costs. I am concerned about the experiment, and I think we need to have a date in the bill for a review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf4911c36dec4fef8e633e2288b3e4a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf4911c36dec4fef8e633e2288b3e4a5\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill is indeed the nub of the bill. The group standards issue is the one that should be focused on most carefully, because\u2014as the member from Horowhenua, Nathan Guy, pointed out so ably\u2014in many respects, this is a very new situation for New Zealand. I note that both in the explanatory note and in the very good submission of the Sustainability Council, the point is made that we should learn by overseas experience regarding the group standards situation. In fact, one of the points that the Sustainability Council made was that the Environmental Risk Management Authority can leverage off the work of overseas regulators to a greater degree than is currently envisaged, so that standards can be linked directly to those set by the European Commission. New Zealand can therefore progressively acquire the standards used in its largest export market for food products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E I have some reservations about that in some respects, because the European Commission exacts some very, very tough requirements on those countries that export to it. But I think we should at least make sure that we are consistent with the Australian regulations and experience in that respect. I do not believe that the Labour Government has looked into the synergies with Australia to the depth that it should have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI also wanted to point out the comments made by the New Zealand Association for Animal Health and Crop Protection regarding group standards. It made the point that although it is generally supportive of the group standards initiative, it notes that pesticides and veterinary medicines, because of their proprietary nature and composition complexity, do not readily lend themselves to this proposal. I would like the Minister in the chair, David Benson-Pope, to take a call and respond to that concern of the Association for Animal Health and Crop Protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt also said that in new section 96A, \u201CPurpose of Part\u201D, it believes that such a group of hazardous substances should be of a similar nature and type and have similar circumstances of use. I note that the select committee has, quite rightly and with the support of National, responded to that, so that the section states: \u201CThe purpose of this Part is to enable the Authority to issue, amend, and revoke standards \u2026 for groups of hazardous substances \u2026 that have a similar nature, are of a similar type, or have similar circumstances of use, so that the risks of the grouped hazardous substances can be effectively managed by 1 set of conditions.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESo here is Her Majesty\u2019s most loyal Opposition responding to the thoughts of industries and those involved in the technical aspects of the industry, which has, sadly, been one of the things the Labour Government has lacked in the response to the technical consequences of this important bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI want to make a comment regarding new section 96D, \u201CWhen group standards may be issued or amended\u201D. Once again, that is one of the areas where there is great concern. The section states: \u201C(1) Before issuing or amending group standards under section 96C, the Authority must,\u2014(a) in the case of any hazardous substance \u2026 be satisfied that issuing or amending \u2026 group standards is a more efficient and effective way of managing the risks of all the hazardous substances in the identified group than the approval process under Part 5; and (ab) in the case of any hazardous substance to which section 96C(1A)(b) applies, be satisfied that issuing or amending \u2026 group standards is a more efficient and effective way of managing the risks of all the hazardous substances in the identified group;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00221f14defa268846e5a2dd785f025dddfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f14defa268846e5a2dd785f025dddfa\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 5 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to insert new clause 20A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002213cb13f67de147528c94ed0647518772\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 111\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022329451684c0c41d7af3995f4d48e46d2\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Parts 7, 8, 10, and 11 of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00222f711f96448f486cb681efc28f52990d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f711f96448f486cb681efc28f52990d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 deals particularly with enforcement of the Act. There are a variety of concerns about this part of the bill. Firstly, clause 21 amends subparagraph (iii) of section 97(h) of the principal Act by omitting the words \u201Clocal authority\u201D and substituting the words \u201Cterritorial authority\u201D. I do know that Federated Farmers in their submission were deeply concerned about the cost implications of what local government and regional government could impose on them by not ensuring that their interests were taken care of, and were a bit more concerned that central government itself should be held to account, rather than a whole variety of bodies around New Zealand with different enforcement interpretations and different imposition of costs on to working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut I also note there is great concern about the liability framework around this bill, and one of the points again made by the Sustainability Council was that agents making use of hazardous substances need to be financially fit in order to meet costs arising from any breach of the controls relating to hazardous substances or third-party claims for damages. They are making a very salutary and relevant point because, more and more, some of those companies that produce toxic substances shelter under shell companies when they are not sure as to whether the liabilities they could incur are able to be fulfilled by them. This is a mechanism that I would again like the Minister to take a call on and say whether he has thought about the situation whereby companies and manufacturers involved with toxic companies do not have the financial backing to be able to clean up the problems after a toxic accident, or are not insured enough or insured appropriately for that to occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe second point was that no liability for damages arises as long as the user of a hazardous substance abides by controls set by the Environmental Risk Management Authority. That is a very important aspect, because even at the point that such a control is breached there is no strict liability for harm caused, be it economic, environmental, or to human health. Again, the required remedy is that developers and users be made strictly liable under the Act for damage resulting from the use of hazardous substances, and further, unless firms face the full social costs of their activity they will have the incentive to overexpand those activities at the cost of the wider economy. That balance is obviously one that has to be very carefully worked out so that the compliance costs are kept to a minimum, and that is vital, yet, on the other hand, the liability framework must be robust enough to ensure that those companies that are not abiding by the framework and are responsible for inappropriate toxic damage can be brought to justice, and that there are sufficient liabilities. So it is important that the Minister assures the New Zealand public that those aspects are indeed fulfilled by Part 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI would like to comment on new section 97B, \u201CEnforcement of Act in respect of hazardous substances in place of work\u201D. Again we have the situation of Occupational Safety and Health officers going into workplaces and manufacturers\u2019 premises, and on to farms, and enforcing their will, sometimes extremely inappropriately. The submission from Federated Farmers stated that toxic substance is such a specialised area that those officers should be specially trained. Unfortunately, the bill makes no provision for special training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002260e8e1d2d15244e480c26493308f7721\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260e8e1d2d15244e480c26493308f7721\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I have a few points to make about the enforcement provisions in Part 3, but in no particular order. The first point relates to clause 21, which substitutes \u201Cterritorial authority\u201D for \u201Clocal authority\u201D. I have not seen the arguments made, but I presume that territorial authorities are probably the more appropriate bodies. My concern is not so much about who does the enforcement as about the costs. We have seen Parliament pass legislation time and time again on a range of matters, such as the legislation regarding motorcar use\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210de48142a874978bc9dc53bf50a6717\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Prostitution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e408a77435e4a6fa1feffe524e31943\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the prostitution legislation, the impositions around smoking, and the Building Act. The list goes on and on. Again, I ask: who will pick up the tab in respect of this bill? The Committee has a responsibility to consider the implications of what we are doing. The bill deals with a significant area, but the enforcement provisions load the costs on to the most significant and most important body: the local territorial authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIn that regard, I do not see any clarity offered in clause 22, which inserts section 97B. I look at subsection (2) and see the words \u201Cmay appoint enforcement officers\u201D and \u201Cmay exercise the powers of inspectors under the Health and Safety in Employment Act\u201D. Perhaps I have missed something, and I ask the Minister to explain whether that is optional or is required. If we are to have a regime that protects absolutely, then I would have thought that \u201Cmay\u201D should not be used but rather words that are clear and definitive about the way in which the enforcement powers are to be enacted. Perhaps the Minister could explain that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI move on to clause 27, which inserts new section 122, \u201CPower to require hazardous substance to leave New Zealand\u201D. I think every person of a reasonable disposition would say that if someone brings in something that is inappropriate, it should go. I am in absolute agreement with that, but my concern relates to a matter that is not covered. I ask the Minister to give some consideration to what happens to goods that are bona vacantia\u2014in other words, do not have a home. I have to say that if I were of a nature to bring in something that was a bit doubtful, I would construct a little path of confusion about ownership, or create some kind of parent company or some kind of construction of safe houses or something, that would absolve me and make it difficult to trace the goods to me. I am aware of such things happening in some circumstances. So although the amendment in clause 27 requires the person who brings in the goods to take responsibility for the cost of removal, and we would tick that off and say it is excellent, in the case of goods that are bona vacantia\u2014no owner, no home\u2014and a risk, what thought and what provisions have been made to pick up on that anomaly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E I believe it is a real anomaly. I know, as I said earlier, of instances where that has occurred with regard to hazardous substances. I know of people who want to bring in something that is on the edge and that maybe there are some questions about\u2014maybe their bookwork has not been done and they intend to get it done here, and the substance does not comply. There is a range of issues whereby that sort of situation can occur, and if there is not a very clear trail back to the person or entity who brought the substance in, who actually pays? Then there is the other element that comes out of this whole argument: the company that brings the substance in may not be able to afford the transit of the goods back out again, if they do not comply. It is very easy to understand how someone may have taken, for want of a better word, a punt on a new product, in the belief that it is a magic bullet\u2014a cure-all\u2014and something from which he or she will make a considerable profit. But in bringing the product in the person may have extended himself or herself, and be in a position where he or she actually does not have the finances to be able\u2014or, again, the person may have constructed some kind of company that is unable\u2014to afford to move it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00223a6b14b6295046e5bad2a5a854887eab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a6b14b6295046e5bad2a5a854887eab\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E That was an excellent contribution from my colleague Eric Roy on the term \u201Cbona vacantia\u201D. I have to mention here that the term \u201Cbona vacantia\u201D is not in the definitions in the original Act, or in the bill. I do think that the Minister should give us an explanation with regard to bona vacantia. This is something we should all know about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271764be159764ac3bfb61ee001e79364\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: Bona vacantia means \u201Chappy holidays\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228421b93fd0a645c4881f1e5e98380367\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Happy holidays? OK. There is huge concern about dumping costs on to local authorities, yet this Government is doing it again. The costs of enforcement in relation to hazardous substances will now be in the hands of local authorities. Members should think about what that really means. This is about testing equipment, and proving the case, or not proving it, because in most cases nowadays people are deemed to be guilty and have to prove their innocence. This is about abatement notices, enforcement officers, and court procedures. No wonder this Government is talking about a $2 million saving. It looks like it is going to pass the cost on to local authorities. I suggest that it will cost far more than $2 million to local authorities throughout New Zealand, and, as a consequence, that cost will be transferred to the ratepayers of this country, and ratepayers are groaning under the weight of those costs. They really cannot accept any more impositions from this Government. But more are in the pipeline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe other day I was reading a document about housing. It was from a Government department, promoting housing through local authorities\u2019 long-term council community plans. It is the wish list for anybody who wants anything through local authorities, and, of course, it is the ratepayers who have to pay for that. Here is another part of that wish list. The Government wants to transfer the onus of responsibility but without giving any remuneration for the costs associated with it. That is happening constantly with this Government, and it will do that for all of its social services. If the Government can get away with it, it will put more and more of its social services on to local government without a brass razoo going along with it. I think it is an absolute disgrace, and it is time that that was addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned about the cost on the farming sector, the agricultural sector. Of course, if the Government thinks it is making savings, we know why. If it is not dumping costs on to local authorities, it is dumping them on to farmers. I would like to answer some of the questions that were raised with regard to those costs. Where are the savings going to be? If we look at one of the submissions, we see that the total cost of compliance with the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act is calculated to be nearly $105 million. This averages out at $2,230 per farm in set-up costs, and does not include any ongoing costs from 2007 onwards. For the arable sector, the set-up cost was going to be about $3,000 per farm. But does this Government actually care about those cost-compliance issues for businesses, which include farming? No. It does not take any cognisance of that, at all. In spite of all the rhetoric there is no substance, and the Government does not actually follow through. This is another one of those instances. Those costs will be passed on to farmers and on to ratepayers, through local authorities having to enforce them. Does having to enforce those costs mean local authorities will be getting into that whole eye in the sky stuff, as well? I do not see that as necessarily being a part of this, unless it is a visual assessment of the effects of any use of a hazardous substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThere has been an inadequate cost-benefit analysis of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, to justify the costs to the industry. We see the costs being rorted, too, in the way people have to sit tests for the use of hazardous substances. Lots of people are now getting into the exercise of providing educational opportunities that farmers have to comply with and have to participate in, at their cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002243be0c1b2ed440a3956ae44086847bea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243be0c1b2ed440a3956ae44086847bea\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I also rise to speak in relation to Part 3. Like my colleague Dr Hutchison, I would like to refer to clause 22, which inserts new section 97B, \u201CEnforcement of Act in respect of hazardous substances in place of work\u201D, which as Dr Hutchison has very wisely mentioned includes farms. I will take a bit of a different tack on this, however. But before I do so I will refer to another learned colleague\u2014we have so many on this side of the Chamber\u2014Mr Eric Roy. He referred to the totally discretionary nature of the appointment of enforcement officers, which gives no certainty at all to this legislation. My point, however, is that this provision states that the enforcement agency \u201Cmay appoint enforcement officers in accordance with this Act who may exercise the powers of inspectors under the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992,\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe all know of ludicrous examples under that Health and Safety in Employment Act, which hinders progress rather than helps progress, and which discourages personal responsibility rather than encouraging it. We have heard in the media the stories of the cancelled lolly scrambles and the cancelled pipe band marches, which are examples of how totally ludicrous and ridiculous some of the legislation passed through this House actually is. But let us look at it from a more legal point of view, and consider the definition of \u201Cplace of work\u201D. Place of work, under the Health and Safety in Employment Act, as we all know, includes vehicles. It includes motor vehicles, trucks, and tractors. It includes harvesters. If any of those motor vehicles happen to be carrying some spray, a hazardous substance, who will be responsible for that? Will it be the owner, or will it be the driver? I think that that adds to some of the uncertainty of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMy other question in relation to enforcement is, will those enforcement officers then have the powers of the police to stop and inspect the vehicles, and to check whether they are indeed carrying a hazardous substance? That is what they will need to do under this bill. My question really is: does that mean we will need more than the 1,000 front-line police now promised by this Government, and at what cost? It is another cost that I do not believe has been thought of under this Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMy other concern in relation to this bill is clause 29, \u201CNotification of hazardous substance injuries\u201D. That clause adds more compliance costs to our already totally compliance \u2013 cost ridden country. It provides that if a medical practitioner finds that a person who is not admitted to a hospital is suffering from an injury caused by a hazardous substance, the medical practitioner must give notice of the injury to the medical officer of health. What does \u201Cinjury\u201D mean? Does it mean that if a person sniffs a bit of spray and feels a bit queasy and goes to the doctor, then the doctor has to refer the incident to the medical officer of health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E When the medical officer of health knows that someone has felt a bit queasy from sniffing a bit of spray, as by mistake some of us from rural backgrounds have been prone to do, will this not then lead to more red tape, more bureaucracy, more compliance costs, more work, and more paperwork? Is that really a sensible option? I do not believe that this Government has thought through the ramifications of requiring medical practitioners to report any injury caused by a hazardous substance, no matter how small or how serious, to the medical officer of health. The common theme through this legislation is the cost of compliance. We will have compliance costs in trying to enforce the legislation in places of work, not only on farms but also in vehicles. These compliance costs will affect farmers who are already lumbered with so many other costs. We heard that the cost of this legislation alone adds $3,000 costs to farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0340d86414341d4803c950978765308\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0340d86414341d4803c950978765308\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E National members are making a big play on the cost of this legislation to farmers. I want to raise one or two issues in the submission that came from Federated Farmers to the Education and Science Committee in terms of this bill. The first one, which I shall read from the submission, is: \u201CIn general, Federated Farmers supports the provision of a group standard approval mechanism.\u201D That is the basis of this legislation. So I really have to question some of the points that members on the other side of the Chamber are raising. I will go on to quote from another part of the submission, remembering, of course, that the 1996 legislation\u2014which, for Sandra Goudie\u2019s information, is the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act\u2014was brought in by Simon Upton, who was National member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThis is what Federated Farmers have to say: \u201CPractical implementation of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996 has been fraught with difficulties. Federated Farmers has supported changes to the Act that helped to remove constraints and minimise the unintended cost to business and Government and the barriers to innovation.\u201D This includes both written and oral submissions in support of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Transitional Provisions and Controls) Amendment Bill. In other words, Federated Farmers are supporting this legislation because it reduces the compliance costs that were implicit in the original Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act brought in by National. I need to make the point that representatives of Federated Farmers came to the select committee and said that this legislation is good legislation, because it fixes up some of the mistakes that National had in its 1996 legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENational members really have to start considering that they mucked it up in 1996 and that that is why Federated Farmers are supporting this amendment bill. If compliance costs were being added by this bill, they would be voting against it. They are voting for it, because they know that it is reducing the compliance costs that were created by Simon Upton in his original 1996 legislation. Everything we are hearing from National members on that side of the Chamber has to be questioned because of the fact that it means nothing at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI make one extra point, which is about the on-farm compliance cost of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act as calculated by Federated Farmers in their submission. It states: \u201CThe total set-up cost for compliance with the HASNO Act\u201D\u2014brought in by National under Simon Upton\u2014\u201Cis calculated to be nearly $105 million, which averages $2,230 per farm in set-up costs but does not include any ongoing cost from 2007 onwards.\u201D That is what that lot did when they were in control of this nation, and now they are complaining about efforts to try to fix up their mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022297bf56856d5432ba3a832d4b315fb44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022297bf56856d5432ba3a832d4b315fb44\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that we get those kinds of responses from the New Zealand First crew now that they are in Government with Labour. These are the people who told us they would keep everyone honest. And what happened in Rotorua? They said one thing, then a month later they said something else: they joined the Government. Where is the honesty we looked for in New Zealand First? People voted those members in on honesty. Where is it? Show us the honesty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200788a63fdf5426ab15979f02320e48a\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Do you know which side he was on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fa3a3b02f2e4c1793bee06776ff56b2\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: One would never know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe enforcement provisions of this legislation raise three issues that we need to address today. The first one is definitely the increase in compliance costs, as we have said throughout the discussion on this legislation. That is the issue that is brought up by a lot of small-business people around the country. They are sick and tired of paying increased compliance costs. The second issue is that we are moving the responsibility on to regional government. That will create another level of work for regional government, and the Government will not be funding it. The Government will expect regional government to do all that work, and the costs of that will be transferred on to the small-business owners, landowners, and ratepayers of this country. They will have to pay increased rates to meet those service levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223372799b666c47e18baf083d5229a382\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the alternative?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a290b815af4ebca91fa2f2c6d8b333\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The alternative? It is a matter of trust. This Government does not trust New Zealanders and is trying to control everything. It has a control orientation within it. It does not trust farmers and others to look after their own properties. Compliance would not be needed if that trust was there. That goes to the heart of the cost estimates that the Government is bringing in as a measure of control. If the Government had trust in the people, it would back them up in what they are doing and a compliance regime would not be needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe also need to be open and to embrace science. One of the major things we need to do is to promote science in this country. An important part of promoting science is that we give people opportunities to take advantage of modern technology. Earlier, a Green Party member talked about the fact that we need to create a regime that allows modern technology to be considered. That is important for compliance, as well, and for enforcement. We need a system that enables us to look forward to science and to provide the opportunities it may provide in dealing with issues in this area. In essence, we need to look at compliance costs, we need to promote science, and we need to have faith that individuals are able to look after their own businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 5 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to clause 28A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002257d1e2fe4c4f46449e4c8864c03d13db\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf3ee57272f34f82a3002baed2c4c311\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf3ee57272f34f82a3002baed2c4c311\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E The title of this bill, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill, is fairly obvious. But one does wonder whether an entirely appropriate alternative would be the \u201CLabour Government (Let\u2019s Delay Another Technical Bill Until It\u2019s Too Late) Bill\u201D. We know that the raison d\u2019\u00EAtre behind this bill\u2014the 79,000 notified toxic substances\u2014has been around for a very long time. The Labour Government has known about the issue for many years and has simply done nothing. This is a classic case of Labour Government irresponsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E The point is, indeed, that the Environmental Risk Management Authority itself has been saying that it will be impossible to transfer all those substances by the due date of June 2006. Here we have the Labour Government bringing in this technical bill, under urgency, 24 hours before it packs up for the end of the year\u2014a desperate Government whose members are saying there is very little on the agenda\u2014when it does not even carry out the thorough checks that it should do on this sort of technical bill, and ensure that, indeed, the aspects of transference can be carried out within the requirements that it itself set down. I challenge the Minister to stand up and tell the Committee that all those substances will be transferred by June 2006. I guarantee the answer is no. Over there we have the member for Otaki, and I know that he must be very worried about his seat\u2014the farmers have certainly rejected him. Can he too take a call and give us an assurance that, indeed, these toxic substances will all have been registered and transferred by June 2006? I do not think so. Here they are, bringing in, under urgency, a bill that is impossible actually to carry out technically, when they should have literally done it years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe second alternative title of this bill, perhaps, could be \u201CLabour Government (Reduction of Compliance Costs of Transfer of Hazardous Substances) Bill\u201D, but really we do not know whether there will be any reduction in compliance costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe just heard a bit of a tirade from New Zealand First. We are not sure just where New Zealand First members are. It seems as though they are thoroughly and completely entrenched on the side of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d64e1ae11114d82b65a614b23e9c904\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc2c2c48cad14b6c8e75bf9c79c3f3ea\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member is protesting. Well, what about the Minister of Foreign Affairs? Where is he? Which side of the fence is he on these days? Clearly, the Rotorua speech belies anything that any common-sense New Zealander knows. He said \u201Cno baubles, no LTDs\u201D, but when that party gets the possibility to have them it takes them, and goes across to Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut the point I am really making is this: do we really know whether this bill will achieve a reduction in compliance costs? Has the Labour Government put any provisions in place to ensure the efficacy of the bill? I do not see them anywhere whatsoever. The rhetoric is, yes, $2 million will be saved in the transference, and, yes, this has been accepted by industry as a good thing. But do we know that it is actually going to happen? Are there any monitoring mechanisms? No, there are not. I believe that, once again, there has been a dereliction of the detail of a bill by a somewhat desperate and pathetic Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf75bcd31d2f4a47b55c14b29953ecbb\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a23e6303f034adea0dccc5b61c420eb\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I see the member from Northland laughing away. He was the one who said there were no toxic accidents up in Northland. Well, I say to Dover Samuels there are plenty of toxic accidents up in Northland. Maybe he is one of the living examples of them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe third possible title for this bill is \u201CLabour Government (Transfer of 70,000 Toxic Substances with No Review or Time Limitation) Bill\u201D. I think that is a very serious issue. It was brought up by the leader of the Green Party, Jeanette Fitzsimons, and also by the very thorough submission of the Sustainability Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00226d9c17eb4f6c400e874b4d11ef2c6876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d9c17eb4f6c400e874b4d11ef2c6876\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dee834454a104b129ba7e3296cdb1637\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227933653480a94a8da1259eacea062db9\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe\u2014or t\u0113n\u0101 koutou! Get it right if you are going to use M\u0101ori language, please!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225091f795e8f34a8fa25d433d0f812e88\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Do not bring the Chairman into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af289cbb3f7d43a5b0f26647723cd495\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to speak to the title of this bill. The purpose of the bill is to improve the workability of the provisions around hazardous substances such as paint, petrol, sprays, and all manner of chemicals within the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. With the recent explosions at the Bunsfield Oil Terminal near London, it is imperative that we have robust legislation to deal with hazardous substances and, indeed, new organisms that come into this country. If we look back at the accident that happened in Kaik\u014Dura when rat poison went into the ocean, we see that it is imperative that we have controls on hazardous substances. There is no argument there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThere is, however, a fine line between controls and over-regulation, with its effect on innovation and growth in this country. Right now New Zealand has one of the worst balance of trade deficits in history, and we still sit under halfway down the list of OECD countries in terms of individual, per capita economic wealth. If we are indeed going to grow that position, we must continue to introduce bills of this nature, which reduce compliance costs and help innovation, to help to grow this country. Anything we can do as a nation to reduce bureaucracy and help business to export and to grow should be a key focus. I believe that this bill will help to do that. Anything we can do to reduce regulation should be a priority for this Government. I also believe that this bill will have an impact on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn talking to this point of reduced regulation, I just want to bring to the Committee an example of regulation at the moment, outside this bill. It is a company called Goodtime Foods, in Napier. It is a small to medium sized enterprise with a strong domestic market, and champing at the bit to get into the international market. It has potential orders of products that would triple the size of its business, but is faced with totally unreasonable regulations that prohibit the growth of its business. In one instance, the bakery is expected to comply with the same wash-down regulations as a slaughterhouse. This company has flour on the floor and on its conveyer belts. That regulation is absolutely nuts. In another instance it was necessary to build an entirely new corridor so that a trolley of raw meat could be pushed down one corridor, and one of cooked meat down another corridor. The compliance costs\u2014the actual costs of this company getting an export licence\u2014were absolutely ludicrous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIf we are serious in this country about growing our per capita income, and about growing the nation, we need to focus on legislation that will actually reduce compliance costs and make it easier for our nation\u2019s businesses to export goods and to achieve wider economic growth. It is points such as that that I hope this bill is addressing, to actually reduce compliance costs for our businesses overall, and allow them to grow on a wider basis. At all times we must remember that New Zealand is a microeconomy catering to many different economies of a much larger nature. Removing barriers to innovation and to sustainable economic growth are critical to driving this country forward. National supports this bill on that basis, and hopes it will go some way to reducing the bureaucracy around hazardous substances and, in fact, new organisms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn particular I support, firstly, the provision of a new approval mechanism, known as the group standards, which I spoke to earlier in the Committee stage. Secondly, and also important, I support the adoption of international standards for exposure of chemicals, so that we do not have to assess each pesticide ourselves as it comes into the country, which again creates major costs. These seem to me to be common-sense measures. To follow on from New Zealand First\u2019s tirade about the introduction of the Act in 1996, that did, in fact, tidy up three or four Acts that had become intertwined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5a37a9188d746c4a249394d9f383411\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5a37a9188d746c4a249394d9f383411\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a brief call on the title and commencement. I do not have any particular great issues with the title that is here\u2014the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. But because we have had a number of modifications to this bill over time, it occurs to me that probably we should have just started numbering them: the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Amendment Bill (No 1), (No 2), and (No 3), or whatever. Because I will make this prediction: this will not be the last time that this House debates amendments to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. I see the Hon Brian Donnelly smiling, I think in agreement, about that. He did make the point that this was a National bill. Before New Zealand First was a twinkle in the eye of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, this bill went through the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76bcbd2be6c45648ecd8e8d66b2a448\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: In 1996 we had two members in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259008fec28fc4ff18fe15da4f7b031af\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: It was still a twinkle in those days. Let me say there was a high degree of unanimity about the need for hazardous substances and new organisms legislation. Not only that, a special select committee was set up to deal with the legislation, and it sat mostly on Fridays to deal with this separately. So to say that all the errors in this one are due to National is an extension of reality, when in fact there was a great degree of unanimity about the process by which the original bill became an Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAs we reflect\u2014we are getting near the closing of the Committee stage on this bill\u2014I think we are kind of locked into some problematic situations. Consumers and our international markets have a standard of assurance that is getting higher and higher and higher. The implications of this is complexity in cost at our end. [Interruption] Someone called out: \u201CHow do you undo that?\u201D\u2014I do not know. Somehow or other, we need to get together in the same way that we had unanimity about doing this and be able to provide that assurance without the ongoing cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI reflected on an earlier trip to the European Union. There could be coming for us as a nation a passport for each animal slaughtered and exported, with a required diary of every intervention, animal health procedure, and every chemical applied. The whole thing is coming towards us. We say that assurance is important\u2014and we are kind of dead at selling our products if we do not have it\u2014but I think we need to take stock a little bit and apply our very capable minds to finding a process where we can give assurance and engage in the process without this ongoing complexity and this ongoing cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI am amused and fascinated that in Part 1, the section that I do not think anyone spoke on, the Chief of Defence Force\u2014[Interruption] The member covered the Chief of Defence Force, did he? I am sorry, I do not want to repeat what the honourable member might have said. Again, it is an example of how complex it is getting. The Chief of Defence Force has to ensure methods of controlling any hazardous substance he might have, of handling any weapon of mass destruction anywhere in the world that could come into New Zealand, yet we have to have a process label. I wonder whether the terrorists or the rebels who might impose this somewhere in the world are operating under the same set of rules. I have to suggest that they are not, but again it says that this is getting complex and is getting almost nonsensical in some elements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EBut if we fall away from it and say we are not there, then we get an opportunity for any kind of non-tariff barrier to come up and ask what our process on this is and say that no, they are not taking our product. We are locked in the horns of a very, very difficult dilemma. Yes, we need the protection; yes, we need the assurance; but at some stage we will have to address the problem, which is becoming more and more complex. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ELet me give members another example. When patients went into a hospital they used to have a couple of pages to fill out before an operation, and now they have 24\u2014about what happens to their organs, what happens with liability, and there is a whole range of things. Again, this is symptomatic of the complex assurance nature of the things we are involved in. The House has to address the issue of ongoing cost and complexity, while retaining assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00228959fd179a744d169132ccdffcdf2840\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228959fd179a744d169132ccdffcdf2840\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to make one or two points in reference to the comments that have been made. First, Mr Eric Roy claimed that when the 1996 bill\u2014under Simon Upton and the previous National Government\u2014went through, New Zealand First was just a twinkle in Winston Peters\u2019 eye. In fact, New Zealand First had as many members at that particular time as ACT now has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dee730de4174be1ae86b055f0264674\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Not very many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b3a12dbef84eb2823abd5ac650ea57\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: No, there were not very many at that particular time. It was under first past the post. It had two members. I would like to remind the Committee that half of New Zealand First at that time now sits amongst the National Party. He was probably the member who was looking at Simon Upton\u2019s bill at that particular time. He never really was one who did his homework very well. Therefore, he probably let some of the things through that we now have to fix up with this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EPaul Hutchison did make a point, and it is a point that I will affirm. He made the point that this legislative programme has been too slow. I think that is correct. I believe that we are dealing with some very important matters here. A programme has been set out, and the fact that we have had to put through Supplementary Order Papers purely and simply to comply with the law is really a symptom of bad management under the previous administration and the previous Minister. I think I made that point earlier, and I confirm what Paul Hutchison said. The process has not been managed in a timely fashion or in a fashion that gives priority to the safety of New Zealanders under the original agreement and framework. I hope that any further legislation that comes forward on this matter and on these issues will be advanced in a much more timely fashion than this legislation has been advanced. Almost everything that the National members have said in this debate has been balderdash, with the exception of that one particular point regarding the need for timely advancement of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002225064a5d168a4ebbaefb623a4d5f99b2\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00222271fdac663e42cb99731eeed35bcec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222271fdac663e42cb99731eeed35bcec1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. The bill\u2019s primary objectives are to introduce a new approval mechanism, known as the group standard; to include regional councils as hazardous substances enforcement agencies that may enforce the Act; to increase the ability to set practical exposure limits to protect people and the environment; and to improve the workability of rapid assessment, reassessment, and several other provisions including those for exempt laboratories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe amendments contained in this bill will reduce costs to the Government and to industry, reduce barriers to innovation, and better protect the environment and the health and safety of people in our communities. The bill is not divisive, setting up business against the environment. This legislation is good for business and the environment, and, perhaps most important, this bill is good for people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe changes in the bill will ensure that the processes of the Act work better, providing meaningful reductions in costs to industry and the Government, and reducing barriers to innovation without compromising what the Act originally set out to achieve\u2014a healthy environment for all New Zealanders. Concern has been expressed at the time frames within which the select committee was asked to report on this bill. I acknowledge that those time frames were tighter than the norm, and I thank the committee and its chair, Mr Donnelly, for their diligent work in returning this bill to the House. The pressure on timing comes from the time provided for the transitional provisions of the Act. That transitional period ends on 1 July 2006 and by that date all transfers must be complete. Delay means that businesses would continue to have to comply with hazardous substances and new organisms controls for some substances, and controls from the old legislation for others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EPassing this bill means that businesses will be able to get on with business under one piece of legislation, whereas previously there were four inconsistent and overlapping processes. This reduces costs for both business and the Government. Contrary to some concerns that have been raised, the bill enhances the protection of the environment and the health and safety of people and communities. The bill does this through group standards that will enable hazardous substance and new organism controls to be applied not only to the many currently uncontrolled notified toxic substances but also to hazardous wastes. The bill further enhances the protection of the environment and the health and safety of people and communities by removing the barriers to setting the exposure limit controls that protect people and the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI moved a number of amendments to the bill during the Committee stage. Those amendments remove the legal circularity that currently prevents New Zealand from meeting its obligations under the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. This is an important convention, as it provides for the safe disposal of persistent organic pollutants, including polychlorinated biphenyl. Other amendments clarify the consultation obligations of the Environmental Risk Management Authority around group standards and notices of transfer. They also provide consistency around the authority\u2019s powers to incorporate materials by reference and group standards, and notices of transfer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI also remind members of the benefits that the hazardous substances and new organisms legislation brings to the management of hazardous substances. I have explained in my earlier comments that this bill represents a significant step forward in protecting the environment and improving the living standards of all New Zealanders. Hazardous substances do bring us a great many benefits. They allow us to be more productive, to generate more with less, to grow more with less, and to achieve more with less. The bill not only ensures that economic growth can be more sustainable; it actually enhances the sustainable economic growth potential of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ELike many new ideas, there were some teething difficulties with the Act, and in June 2003 my colleague Marian Hobbs announced a hazardous substances strategy to improve the workability of the Act. This debate marks another vital milestone in delivering that strategy. It is important to speak of the strategy now, because it was effectively a promise to industry and to all New Zealanders to deliver good environmental governance through effective legislation. The Government promised to fix the Resource Management Act, and I believe we have done so. We promised to fix Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, and we are in the process of doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThis debate marks our commitment to deliver on the outcome of good environmental governance through effective legislation. We said we would do it, and we are doing it right now. The bill will reduce costs to the Government and to industry, it will reduce barriers to innovation, and it will better protect the environment and the health and safety of the people in our communities. I am pleased to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00223f1596af4d1a457e9fcee1a19edf621f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f1596af4d1a457e9fcee1a19edf621f\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I must say that we have just heard a revelational speech from Minister Benson-Pope, who said that the Labour Government had promised to fix the Resource Management Act and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, and that it has done that. I have not heard of anything as ridiculous as that in my life. New Zealanders up and down this country are deeply outraged by the ways in which the Labour Government has imposed compliance costs on them through those two Acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt may be that in this particular bill there is an intention to reduce compliance costs, but no one knows\u2014and the Minister would not confirm\u2014whether there would be any monitoring of this amendment to ensure that it was efficacious. There were absolutely no promises of that from the Minister, and, certainly, when we heard the absolutely ridiculous statement from a Minister of the Labour Government that it had fixed the Resource Management Act and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, we knew that it was officially in denial. That is, indeed, a very serious condition to be in. It is so serious that Labour should, instead of taking just the end-of-year break in 24 hours\u2019 time, take a complete break\u2014resign, and give the opportunity to the New Zealand people to vote in a National Government for 2006. It is the height of ridiculousness for the new Minister to suggest that the Labour Government has fixed the Resource Management Act and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that both New Zealand First and the Green leader, Jeanette Fitzsimons, have made quite a lot of comment about the genesis of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. I agree that it is important to think about its genesis. As Jeanette Fitzsimons told the House, in the 1970s and 1980s, prior to that legislation being enacted, there were about 20 different pieces of legislation, which were all over the place and non-comprehensive. There were calls from right around the country to make it into comprehensive legislation. The bill that Simon Upton introduced in 1996 was world-leading and cutting edge. Yes, there were indeed problems with it, and I think that that is what often happens with cutting edge legislation. However, one would have thought that after 6 years of a Labour Government, which had been critical for a long time of some of the deficiencies of the Act, it would do something about it, instead of bringing this amendment into the House under urgency, 24 hours before it adjourns for the end of the year. I do recognise that Brian Donnelly, the chairman of the Education and Science Committee, and I are in absolute agreement on that fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAnother revelation has struck me today, and it is that New Zealand First is no longer a schizophrenic chameleon in Opposition. Brian Donnelly has confirmed that New Zealand First has formally transformed into an official poodle of the Labour Government. It was quite extraordinary that Brian Donnelly suggested that compliance costs had not been thought through extremely carefully by the National Opposition, both in terms of the Resource Management Act\u2014and we have put up amendment after amendment aimed specifically to reduce compliance costs\u2014and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, where, in respect of the new organisms aspect of it, again, legislative changes were proposed and amendments put up to reduce compliance costs, which were absolutely valid and appropriate. Yet Brian Donnelly has suggested that National has not consistently supported the changes, whereas the Labour Government\u2014which New Zealand First has formally and officially moved across to\u2014is where New Zealand First is, and that is one of the other revelations regarding this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EFederated Farmers did put up a very well-thought-out, technical submission and assessment of the costs of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. They assessed that it costs New Zealanders, in terms of the set-up cost, something like $102 million, and, in terms of each arable farmer, on average, about $3,000 a year. When the Government says that this particular amendment will save $2 million, and the Minister gives us no reassurance whatsoever that there will be any monitoring of the efficacy of the amendment, then any faith in the Government erodes and crumbles away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f4972a04f944c68c72938b87e566ac\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: No one believes anything he says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a29feae1964c5e88304dee0f92e219\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely correct that no one believes anything that David Benson-Pope says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHowever, David Benson-Pope did give an assurance to New Zealanders that the costs of revoking the registration of some of the toxic substances and then carrying out an appropriate risk management assessment would be available from the Government. I think it is very, very important that he is held to the promise he has made to the New Zealand people today. The Environmental Risk Management Authority says that it simply does not have the resources available if, indeed, those toxic substances do require revocation from the register and a full assessment. The authority says that the cost will be about $1 million per substance, and that it simply does not have that money. We are in a situation whereby the authority says, on the one hand, that it is just not possible to transfer everything across by June 2006\u2014the date by which that should occur\u2014and, on the other hand, that it does not have the resources to carry out an appropriate risk management assessment of those substances that will be identified, inevitably, as being a worry to New Zealanders and to our environment. That is of considerable concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI will just point out two things that I think are certainly of value in this bill. I mentioned them before. The first relates to the rapid assessment and approval of other hazardous substances in special emergencies. We in New Zealand have had various concerns over the last few years, one being the varroa bee mite. The fact that it has become endemic in New Zealand raises a huge concern about the efficacy of our biosecurity agencies. As I understand it, only one bee scientist in New Zealand is at a level that one would expect international best practice to conform to. It was not until the varroa mite was endemic in New Zealand that it was suddenly realised that it was here. When the Labour Government gave up and said that it could not eradicate the mite, bee-keepers said that they needed a miticide to fix their hives. It was not possible through the legislation to make that available, so it took a tremendous amount of work to get this lazy Labour Government to provide for special circumstances when a miticide would be available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut let us just imagine, if we did not have this legislation, what would happen if we had a foot-and-mouth outbreak and we were not able to get the best therapies possible to ensure that it could be combated in the most efficacious way. Fortunately, new section 49L is to be inserted in the Act by clause 12 of the bill. That is important; it should have happened long ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u002226483c3f42f34825bf61e6014b55b324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226483c3f42f34825bf61e6014b55b324\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I had the opportunity to be part of the Education and Science Committee when it deliberated on this bill in the last Parliament. My good friend Brian Donnelly chaired the committee, and I think we did a good job. We received a lot of submissions from the industry, scientists, and environmental people. I think this bill is really good in terms of promoting business, the environment, and the health and safety of people in our community. This bill really relates to group standards, which are something the industry has been asking for, for quite some time. It puts together a number of substances that, in particular, the farming community and the industry use. I think it will reduce the cost to the Government and the industry, reduce barriers to innovation, and better protect the environment and the health and safety of people. I am delighted that the industry, which the Government consulted, supports this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EVery briefly, the group standards will reduce cost to the industry by reducing the number of applications that businesses need to make to the Environmental Risk Management Authority, and by providing simpler prescriptive alternatives to technical controls and regulations. With that, I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u002279e99a9485264d07990c9115a0c1c92f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279e99a9485264d07990c9115a0c1c92f\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the third reading of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill. It has been interesting to listen to the discussions in the Chamber today and last night. We have heard today that this bill will result in a saving of $2 million. When this bill goes through today\u2014if it does\u2014that will be an interesting Christmas present for all the orchardists and farmers to get. I cannot see where those savings will be made. I have listened to Minister Benson-Pope today, and I am still unenlightened as to where that $2 million saving actually is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to read section 96D(1)(b)(i), inserted by clause 20: \u201Cthe benefits associated with a reduction of environmental and health risks outweigh the economic costs associated with complying with the group standard;\u201D. What it actually says is there is a cost associated with this, to do with environmental and health risks, and it actually sounds to me a little like the Kyoto Protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022340c0dea56ec4802a3025c10bebb855a\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, what a disaster!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9b6b75e4d174da087a58323705e691e\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, it is a disaster. This bill seems to me to be a bit of a rush job. It has been on the cards for 3 or 4 years. We heard from Mr Benson-Pope that there had been a few teething problems in the past. Suddenly we seem to be trying to crash this legislation through before Christmas. I wonder where the review is. Where is the date for a review? The whole thing seems like it could be a bit of an experiment. It seems to me and to other members of the House that this bill could be a bit cumbersome. It could be an experiment with no date for a review. We have highlighted today the costs, and we are sick of hearing about compliance costs\u2014I know that everyone has had a bash today. But we know that this bill will add costs. It will add costs to the importer and the retailer that will then flow on to the end user.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt was also interesting to listen to the debate on Part 4. Regional councils will be left to bear the brunt of this legislation. We have seen just recently that Waikato ratepayers are subsidising a helicopter to go around checking on dairy farmers to see what is happening. It is sort of like Big Brother. Regional councils will be left to administer this measure, and I ask where the money will come from. It will not come from the general taxpayer, will it; it will actually come out of the ratepayer\u2019s pocket. There will be no flow-on money from the Government. It will be left to the little old ratepayer to pay for this amendment via the regional council. Once again, something is being passed through this House that will have a direct impact on the ratepayers of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt is also interesting that many people will have to acquire approved handler certification. There will be some assessment of candidates. I am pleased that farmers who have a huge amount of experience in dealing with chemicals will not necessarily have to do a full-day course. I am pleased that the course will be reduced in some areas to a half-day course. The other thing I think is significant is that there is some relief around veterinary medicines. I would hate to see that farmers who drench their livestock on an almost monthly basis have to get handling certification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E A few of us took a trip to Gisborne the other day to see the flood-affected farmers, the farmers of the East Coast whom this Government over there\u2014of which New Zealand First is a part\u2014has just snubbed. [Interruption] That is right. You say you are not members of the Government, but you are sitting on that side and I tell you, Mr Donnelly, that you are definitely part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42a881cbc6e40bbaca702ce4b00a965\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is not to bring the Chair into the debate; he is to refer to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc9ac6ba0c614a628eb8ade98c92efe9\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: It is interesting to see that this Government has snubbed those farmers on the East Coast whose farms have been badly flooded, and who are now out there trying to salvage their crops that have been water damaged, and suffer from humidity and rot. In particular, I am talking about squash. When I was there the other day it was interesting to see that the farmers were putting chemicals on their crops to try to salvage some of the possessions they have left. This Government does not care one iota about our primary production sector and assisting those people, even though a precedent has been set. I have seen first-hand that those farmers are putting on chemicals, and that is a double-edged sword for them. They get nothing from this Government. Their costs will go up as a result of this amendment bill. They are all paying huge taxes, and there is no relief in sight for them. The backbone of the country has once again been let down by this Government\u2014the hard-working primary production sector\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b05793d9850b4d56a8627b1c044f080f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The backbone of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd9512e47bd348ab87eba4f71ce5e7b2\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014the backbone of the country, which supports 80 percent of this economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff545fe731f245b389905f8185812cfc\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the member forgotten the Manawat\u016B floods?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a42200bcf94d839d1a107442b40021\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Forgotten? The precedent was set in the Manawat\u016B, but that was before the election; now, the East Coast people are feeling snubbed. They feel extremely disappointed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to hear Dr Smith last evening signal that we should be working more closely with Australia to have a common agreement on standards\u2014which I believe is paramount. It was also interesting to hear from Mr Donnelly that fly-by-nighters and importers will actually find it tougher to import substances into this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224720d48242774976bfbe80f928761ce7\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Who put the amendment in? Not you guys.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703d3508e12b459696922a4d3cff1435\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member should not worry about that. I tell Mr Donnelly that he should not give us historical rhetoric; let us face the facts now. He is well aware that this legislation will add a greater burden of compliance, and be a greater burden on the people who actually support the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ELooking forward, I say that this amendment bill will enhance the environment. It is all about sustainability, and I think we need to be mindful of that. Farmers and orchardists are looking forward to the $2 million of savings that will come from our passing this amendment today, but I am mindful of the fact that they deserve better than what they get now from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00222c2b2267426c4ffd9a0b0e128f322703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c2b2267426c4ffd9a0b0e128f322703\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think most of the issues have been covered in the debate, but I do have to make some comments upon one or two things. In relation to the last speech by Nathan Guy, I have to say that it really is quite sad that such a nice guy in such a short space of time should be driven to talk such drivel. But that is what happens when members get too close to National. Members on the other side have to realise that I was in that situation once. We had colleagues like Tau Henare who actually sat around in 1996 and said that they would never be seated around the table with the likes of Jim Bolger and Jenny Shipley, but now he is on that side of the House. That is what happens when they get with National. It is sad and unfortunate; nevertheless, that is the way things are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EPaul Hutchinson made some points about how New Zealand First has changed its position, but I want to make the point that New Zealand First has not changed its position towards this legislation one millimetre from the time we sat on that side of the House, right next door to National. We certainly have not changed our opinion that at that particular stage earlier in the year the National members who were sitting beside us were lacking in intellectual substance\u2014they are still lacking in intellectual substance, and we have not changed our position one iota. But I want to ask Paul Hutchinson one thing, and it is a challenge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e304dc1ba3f141c4ac1149784f6d440c\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a point that the Jeanette Fitzsimons took against me some years ago. It concerns me that the member referred to me as Paul \u201CHutchinson\u201D. In actual fact, the Hutchinsons were the side of the family that invented the thumbscrew, while we ourselves are a particularly gallant and honourable lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5ae49fce8b74637a2159563320d2db7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d303488b444edaa93d0ed212820611\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: I shall henceforth refer to the member as \u201CDr Paul\u201D! Let us face it: how many members in this house would actually refer to \u201CB scientists\u201D? I mean, that has to be an insult to all scientists in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe member has stated that New Zealand First has changed its position. It has not changed its position, and I challenge National speakers to tell us of one amendment that they have put up to change this particular legislation\u2014just one issue they actually fought for and tried to change within the legislation in its passage through the select committee and through this House. I challenge the members on the other side of the House to come up with just one word in this bill they wanted changed. Was there one? I tell the House that there was not one instance of any effort to make any change to this legislation by National members sitting on the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThere was, from New Zealand First. I can tell members that all of the changes that came in this legislation through its process actually came from New Zealand First, and those changes tightened up some of the issues in there. But not one thing came from National. Therefore, for National members to say that they oppose this bill and think it is terrible, but to have done absolutely nothing except vote for it\u2014that is all they have done\u2014then we know there is a set of goalposts stamped on their foreheads. That is the point I need to make; I am challenging members on the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ELet us face it: we are talking about cross-benchers here. We were cross-benchers before, we are still cross-benchers, and I can categorically say that I am not a part of the Government constitutionally\u2014absolutely not a part of the Government, any more than Georgina Beyer is. But as we did in the last Parliament, we will operate in a way that will further the interests of New Zealanders, and of New Zealand as a nation. If legislation has to be moved forward in that particular interest, New Zealand First will do it. We will continue to operate in that particular manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EHowever, I do have to say that I agree with \u201CDr Paul\u201D on one particular point. I also was gobsmacked by the statement of David Benson-Pope that \u201CThis Government promised to fix the Resource Management Act\u2014and we have done it.\u201D That is an unbelievable statement, and if Government members actually believe it, then they have to have their minds sorted out. Of course, a party like New Zealand First is eminently placed to be able to sort their minds out on such issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u002260ce7596bd5644bab0636fdd00e17fa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260ce7596bd5644bab0636fdd00e17fa9\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E We have heard an awful lot this morning about compliance costs for business. We have heard about the trouble it will give farmers. We have heard all of that from the National Party, which is voting for the bill. We have heard from the Labour Party that this legislation will reduce compliance costs\u2014we have not really heard how\u2014but we have not heard anybody talk this morning about the nature of the materials that this legislation tries to regulate, and why they need to be regulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E I think it is time that somebody spoke about those issues, because amongst the thousands and thousands of chemicals that we are transferring from old legislation to new legislation\u2014but without any change in the way they are managed or in the regulations under which they have to be used\u2014are some chemicals that are known to be capable of causing cancer, some that are known to be capable of causing birth defects, some that are known to be capable of causing and do cause chronic illnesses, some that are known to be hormone disrupters and that affect people\u2019s reproductive systems and their general health, and some that are known to accumulate in the environment long term and to concentrate up food chains. Surely, that is the reason we have legislation to try to control these substances. We have heard nothing from anybody in the Chamber about how this legislation will improve the management of those hazards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWe have heard from one National Party speaker that we should not have any compliance rules or any enforcement; we should just trust people who use these substances to use them wisely. I wonder whether the National Party actually needs a lesson in toxicology or in the illness that is caused in society by exposure to hazardous chemicals. It makes me very concerned that the House does not see fit to debate the health effects of these substances, but only whether it will be inconvenient for farmers to have to have some training or whether it will be costly for industries to have to pay assessment costs to have their products approved for sale, given that they make enormous amounts of money out of selling those chemicals and there are consequences for the rest of society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAs I said in the second reading debate, the hazardous substances and new organisms legislation sets up a system of grandfathering, whereby substances that have already been approved under old and\u2014everybody agrees\u2014inadequate legislation are grandfathered in under the new legislation and approved, and there is no way that that can then be challenged except at enormous cost to the Crown. It creates a perpetual property right, or a perpetual consent, to use those substances without further assessment in a way that no other legislation does for any other purpose. If we want a consent to take water, discharge into water, discharge into air, or use land for a purpose under the Resource Management Act, we have a time limit on that consent. We have to apply for a new consent at the end of it, so we can go through a process to check whether what we are doing is still acceptable by modern standards, whether there are better ways of doing it, whether the consent should have new conditions on it, or whether, in fact, the consent should not be allowed at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt has been widely accepted, virtually forever, that consents are not perpetual, but these consents are to be perpetual in such a way that it would be an enormous cost to the Crown to reassess the chemicals that the Environmental Risk Management Authority already knows need reassessment. The authority has a list of the ones it is concerned about. It has a list of chemicals that do not meet best international practice, either in being used at all or in being used under the conditions that they are currently used under. There is no time, before 30 June 2006, to put those chemicals through a rigorous reassessment, so they are being brought in and given a perpetual consent. The only way they can be reassessed in the future is at the cost of the Crown. My bet is that they will not be reassessed, because the authority will never persuade the Minister of Finance to make enough Budget available to go through those processes. That is why we need to set up a system where the applicant pays the cost to get its consent continued. That opportunity has now been missed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAt the same time, this legislation creates a great disincentive for innovation. New Zealand is too small a market for a company to apply to introduce a new chemical that is better and, particularly, less environmentally harmful than an existing chemical, if it has to face the full cost of the assessment of the new chemical, but it gets to continue a consent for the old chemical forever, for free. That is a huge disincentive for innovation; it is a huge disincentive for environmental improvement. I simply cannot understand why the Government will not accept the evidence that was given to the select committee, the submissions that I made personally to the Minister, and what many other people have been telling the Government. It seems to be all about a concern that business will kick up if it has to pay any costs, at all, for the privilege of subjecting the rest of us to chemicals that may endanger our health. I would like to suggest that that is actually the wrong way round. If business wants to get its chemicals registered in New Zealand\u2014and I am not denying that chemicals have many uses\u2014then it needs to face the cost of having them properly assessed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ESo we have the inadequate provisions of the Toxic Substances Act, the Pesticides Act, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, and the Dangerous Goods Act rolled over in perpetuity under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. That is a huge missed opportunity that could have been remedied in this amendment bill, but it is not. So while the Green Party accepts that there are useful things in this bill\u2014and it is not actually the content of this particular bill that we are opposed to\u2014we are voting against it because it does not take the last remaining opportunity to set up a system under the Act, whereby it is possible to reassess chemicals and get safer ones without it being at the expense of the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002287b28c47b87b4f708bbe380b9302934b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287b28c47b87b4f708bbe380b9302934b\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E There is no doubt that the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act actually needs some substantial change, and this bill goes some way towards doing that, but it is only a very small step. National supports the bill, contrary to what Brian Donnelly would have everybody believe, because he said that National opposed the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf439091c4e4ef38d9a31e620cf66ee\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: No, I never said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad0ea48701143e780095c3e81a1779b\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: The member did say that. If he goes to Hansard he will find that he did say it. I was listening and I took the member to task at the time. National is supporting the bill, but there is a long way to go towards addressing the compliance costs associated with the whole Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. With this bill we had an opportunity to address some of the issues of compliance cost, but that did not happen. So let us see what the Labour Party lackeys\u2014once known as New Zealand First\u2014really understand about compliance costs, if they do not understand that substantially more has to be done to reduce compliance costs and have them properly addressed in the Act. [Interruption] I said \u201Cthe Labour Party lackeys\u2014once known as New Zealand First\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note has in it what I presume is the Government\u2019s compliance cost statement, under the heading \u201CStatement of net benefit of proposal, including the total regulatory costs (administrative, compliance, and economic costs) and benefits (including non-quantifiable benefits of the proposal) and other feasible options\u201D. Do members know that that statement does not identify one single dollar\u2014not one? I just wonder how the Government assesses any sort of cost, when it does not even provide the figures to show it has done any number crunching or sums. Then under, \u201CGovernment\u201D, the statement talks about the benefits and costs, blah-blah-blah, but no dollar figures are mentioned there, either. The general policy statement states: \u201CThis bill offers a means to reduce costs \u2026\u201D; it does not state that the bill does reduce costs. So we have to look very closely at what the words actually say. Of industry the explanatory note states that the standards will reduce the compliance costs for business. It talks about a number of things to make that happen, but it is questionable whether that will be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI am very sceptical when it comes to this Government, because I find it to be highly fiscally irresponsible, and the student loan situation is a classic example of that. In respect of society and the environment\u2014and I say to Mr Donnelly that it might pay him to read the bill\u2014no environmental, social, or cultural costs have been identified. So what does that say? The Government has not even done any cost-benefit analysis or assessed any environmental, social, or cultural costs, so I presume that it has not done any actual business or compliance costs assessment, at all. I ask the Minister to stand and take a call, and perhaps give us some evidence that he has actually done any sort of compliance costs assessment whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da370edb3b4a49cdb2139969e4452567\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200564835da6b4212bbe2afb816c9373a\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: That is the whole thing about urgency. Everything gets rushed through to such a degree that it is questionable whether a proper oversight of the bill has been undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe are disappointed that this bill is the fourth Hazardous Substances and New Organisms amendment bill introduced into the House by the Hon Marian Hobbs. When she introduced a previous amending bill, we said she did not have a hope of registering the 70,000-odd chemicals and hazardous substances that were required to be registered by the deadline of June 2006. That is only 5 or 6 months away, so I do not think there is any hope of achieving that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe remain disappointed that 5 years later, the Act is still not enforced. It is definitely another failure of this Government. That is no surprise. But who really believes there will be any cost savings for anybody? There may be cost savings for the Government, because it just passes it all on to local government, to farmers, and to businesses and says that there may be some sort of cost reduction and reduced compliance costs, but it has not done any assessment to prove that. No cost-benefit analysis was done\u2014nothing. So I do not know about Labour\u2019s lackeys, New Zealand First. If Brian Donnelly\u2019s passionate defence of Labour\u2019s position is anything to go by, I say that New Zealand First has certainly changed its position. Sector groups are already saying that they believe compliance costs will increase\u2014and of course they will. This Government has no fiscal sense of responsibility at all, and that has been proven time and time again in this House by my esteemed colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EQuestions have already been raised as to why the bill was referred to the Education and Science Committee instead of the Local Government and Environment Committee. Why was that? It should have gone to the Local Government and Environment Committee. After all, that is where the real grunt is. The bill probably received a bit of spelling improvement and that is about it. I cannot imagine that New Zealand First would have had much to do with that. So why the need for urgency? Going into urgency and the bill being sent to the wrong select committee may explain why no proper scrutiny was done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI can give some examples. I refer to the very serious issue of bona vacantia raised by my esteemed colleague Eric Roy\u2014what a fantastic find. Who has heard of bona vacantia? There is no definition in the Act and there is no definition in the bill. Clearly, nobody considered that. What happened to the call from Mr Donnelly that the committee had actually done a great deal in regard to this bill? Bona vacantia means \u201Cwithout a home\u201D, so what happens to a hazardous substance that arrives on the doorstep of New Zealand? Section 122(1), inserted by clause 27, states: \u201CIf a customs officer has reasonable cause to believe that a hazardous substance is being, or has been, imported in breach of this Act,\u201D So a customs officer\u2014just an average Joe Bloggs\u2014says: \u201CI don\u2019t know about this one. Is this a hazardous substance or isn\u2019t it? Well, OK, I\u2019ve got reasonable cause to believe it is and there has been a breach of the Act so, yeah, well, this stuff has got to go back to where it came from.\u201D The poor importer asks: \u201CWhat am I going to do now? What are my appeal provisions?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe importer can appeal to the District Court, but guess what? The hazardous substance has to remain on the ship or the aircraft at the importer\u2019s own cost. Well, I am sure the aircraft or the ship will remain for the number of weeks and months it might take the importer to appeal to the District Court! Quite clearly that is a compliance cost, even if the customs officer is wrong and there was not a breach of the Act. For the person who is affected by the importation of a substance that has been wrongly identified as being a breach of the Act, it would probably be far cheaper to send the stuff back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E So clearly some things did not get identified correctly through the bill, and that could have been well addressed by the select committee but were not. I guess that is the problem with not giving proper oversight to legislation, not giving due regard to it, taking time over it, and not putting in the amount of grunt that is necessary. Of course, when we are talking about compliance costs we are talking about loading local authorities once again with costs from the Government. The Government is once again putting a compliance cost on to local authorities. Maybe, at the other end, they could take out the auditing of long-term community plans and make them a non-statutory document. All that will do is allow the Government to slowly dump social services, and anything else it can, on to local authorities. That will send rates through the roof. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EAlready, fixed-income people, our senior citizens, are the ones who will be hardest hit. By the year 2020 they will be 52 percent of the population. That is pretty serious. But does this Government care? Absolutely not! If they can get rid of costs to the Government they will do it any which way they can, and dumping it on to local authorities keeps them really happy. It keeps this Government really happy. But what does it do to the local authorities and to the ratepayers? It just pushes them down into the ground, and makes it so much harder for them to survive\u2014particularly our older citizens, who have worked hard all their lives and are on a fixed income, and who just cannot support all of these increases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EYes, we are supporting this bill, but it has a long way to go. Is it not amazing that it is easier for a hazardous substance to get here illegally than legally? It is about time we streamlined the Act so that people can legitimately import genetic material, plants, etc., in a streamlined process and meeting all the obstacles they do. Instead, we get illegal substances like rock snot establishing really quickly, and they are absolutely disastrous for this nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227c5ef0773a9042e286ce051005c037d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Approvals and Enforcement) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 111\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022396a91d0bac6482eb06486738d49445a\u0022\u003EBiosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002234d2cf82d3b0496bac32cd9ad592c7f2\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u002208dc5852c9b34d7f9e7faa793fe15a2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208dc5852c9b34d7f9e7faa793fe15a2b\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. The key provisions of the bill are, first, that specified ports are treated as having been designated or approved as places of first arrival under the Biosecurity Act 1993 for all kinds of aircraft, that is for airports, and vessels for seaports, from 1 July 1995 for certain specified ports and from 25 May 1998 for certain other specified ports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003ESecondly, the biosecurity control areas are confirmed as having been established in these specified ports if biosecurity control area agreements exist. Third, the deemed approval of ports and confirmation of biosecurity control areas will not apply to convictions entered, or sentences imposed, from a certain period of time, until the date on which the port approvals were given, or the bill is passed, whichever is the earlier. Fourth, the deemed approval of ports and confirmation of biosecurity control areas will not apply to any court proceedings commenced before the date on which this bill is introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill is needed, because when the Biosecurity Act was enacted in 1993, the ports used as a place of first arrival were approved as a transitional measure. The transitional measure ceased on 1 July 1995. Unfortunately at the time, the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry failed to approve the ports, and consequently the ports were not approved as a place of first arrival, after 1995. The 1997 amendment Act enabled an approval to impose a limitation on the type of craft that could enter a port. Consequently, the amendment provided transitional approval of certain ports of entry for a period of 6 months. At the end of the 6 months the approvals expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EDuring the 6-month transition period the ports were required to be approved under the amendment Act. However, the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry failed to make the necessary approval, and consequently the ports were not designated a place of entry under the Act. The ministry\u2014apart from apologising to everybody\u2014is now in the process of issuing new approvals for relevant ports in accordance with the Biosecurity Act. However, the ministry\u2019s failure to do this prior to now, exposes the Crown to civil action by those who might seek to challenge the actions of ministry staff operating at ports and airports over the intervening period, even though, of course, this was unintended and without malice of any sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill is urgently needed to deem retrospectively certain ports to have been approved as places of first arrival. This will effectively eliminate the risk of future civil action being taken against the Crown for those historical oversights. Although clearly undesirable, the bill will effectively validate the ministry\u2019s operation of the respective ports and airports in the intervening period only. The bill will not validate the three invalid convictions entered, or sentences imposed, during the period when the ports were not approved. Convictions will be quashed, and affected persons will receive redress. Fortunately, those convictions are relatively minor. Any civil proceedings commenced before the bill is introduced will not be affected, but thus far, as far as I am aware, there are no such proceedings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe Government proposes that the bill is not referred to a select committee for consideration, as it is desirable that the legislation be dealt with expeditiously for obvious reasons. If the bill were referred to a committee, there would be a period after introduction, and before enactment, when persons would be aware of the Crown\u2019s exposure and could take civil action. The passing of this bill through all its stages will remove the opportunity for any person to take civil action because ports were not approved\u2014unintentional as it was\u2014as places of first arrival. I gratefully acknowledge the support and cooperation of other parties in the House in assisting with the introduction of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002215a4928453f04250bda16f67da3327f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215a4928453f04250bda16f67da3327f8\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, Madam Assistant Speaker, can I take this opportunity to wish you and your fellow presiding officers a merry Christmas, because I may not have that chance on the last day of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI thank the Minister for Biosecurity for, in his first job as Minister, playing catch-up with his Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry over what clearly has been an oversight. The National Party will be supporting the Minister in his endeavours. I totally agree with the Minister\u2019s comment made at the Biosecurity Summit, when he quoted a former Prime Minister of Australia, Gough Whitlam, who, as Opposition leader, had said: \u201CThe new Minister is of a calibre above that of the previous Minister.\u201D When responding to an interjection about what that meant he said: \u201CHe is a bigger bore than the previous Minister.\u201D So I congratulate the Minister on acknowledging that right upfront.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI tell the Minister that there are a number of issues that he will need to address very quickly. Not only will he have to fix up this measure and have it passed on 13 December\u2014it is 14 December already, but, in the time-honoured fashion of the House, when in urgency it stays in the day that the urgency started; so the Minister is already a day behind in terms of what he is trying to achieve\u2014but also he will have to do something about the major biosecurity problems we have in this country. Thus far every single piece of rhetoric I have heard from this Minister tends to indicate there is no progress on that, whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EClause 4 inserts new section 184A, which basically does what the Minister outlined, and it does need to happen. But given that he has been able, through the process that has brought him to introduce this bill, to see that there are quite a few holes, as it were, in the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, will he be doing something to fix up some of the other vacuums, or shortcomings, in the rest of his portfolio mix? When he made a speech to Federated Farmers and told them there was absolutely no logical reason to have a biosecurity strategy in place before an incursion took place\u2014in fact, I think he said it was illegal to have a strategy in place before an incursion took place\u2014did he know then that that is within his power? Clearly, he does not know that. If that is the case, perhaps he should get a briefing from his officials; they will tell him that the law provides that he must, in some cases, have a strategy in place before there is an incursion. That is yet another gap in the law, or in the Minister\u2019s knowledge\u2014I am not sure. As far as I understand the law, there must be a strategy in place before there is an incursion, in a number of areas. I give but one: the potential foot-and-mouth threat that this country is under all the time. There is within the law a power for the Minister to make sure a strategy is in place before there is an incursion. So I am really curious about what the Minister was referring to when he made that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe pest management strategy that his ministry has in place appears to be fairly robust in that area. Unfortunately, it is not robust in a number of other areas. During the process of this bill\u2014and research obviously has gone on therein\u2014the Minister might have a look at what other gaps there may be in the law, and bring those to Parliament, so that the people of New Zealand can be confident that this Minister is on top of his portfolio. There certainly is no evidence of it thus far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI want to quote to the Minister section 69A of the Act: \u201CA national pest management strategy must specify the following matters: (a) The pest or pests to be managed or eradicated:\u201D. That throws up another question. Given that the Minister, presumably, knew that, and we have had a couple of incursions just recently\u2014namely, sea squirt and didymo\u2014was the Minister aware that under the Act he is required to try, first of all, to eradicate? We can see from the outcome, now that both those incursions appear to be permanent residents in New Zealand, and will be devastating not only to our biodiversity but potentially to our aquafarming economy, that the Minister himself may have slipped up in that regard by not doing what is required under the Biosecurity Act, which he is required to work under. Maybe the Minister has a different view of that; I am sure he does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E So when he says in speeches at biosecurity summits, Federated Farmers conferences, and other such places where he has spoken as the new Minister for Biosecurity, that it would be stupid\u2014I think that is the language he used\u2014to employ funds in the area of a biosecurity strategy before we have an incursion\u2014[Interruption] It might be a good idea if the Minister checked the Act he is supposed to be working under, to find out the reason his warrant has been given to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI give the Minister yet another example of failure\u2014by his predecessor\u2014and that was the case of the varroa bee mite. Once again, there was a surveillance process, there was a biosecurity advance strategy, and neither was used. It was a wait and see situation; the Government would not throw money around willy-nilly, so it just waited to see whether that organism could live in New Zealand. Perhaps the Government hoped that a cold snap would freeze it out, or something like that. Maybe the Government had people sit down at the port with a fly swatter to try to catch the organism on the way through. That sort of approach has failed, and the cost to this country is billions of dollars. We have yet to establish what the cost of the didymo outbreak will be, but I suspect that it could be billions of dollars. So I say to the Minister that while we fiddle while the house burns, as it were, and fix up what is obviously a shortcoming within his own department, he might want to go back and look at some of the other major gaps within his department, to see whether there is something he can do about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere has been a 93 percent increase in the number of passengers coming into New Zealand\u2014I am just telling the Minister this because I am sure he does not know. There has been a 40 percent increase in the number of cargo movements\u2014containers and suchlike. That is the reason why we are far more at risk today\u2014and all that is good because it shows there is growth in the economy\u2014than we have ever been before. For the Minister to sit there and say we have the best biosecurity in the world is just not good enough, because it does not take into account all that extra traffic and extra risk. The Minister will tell us how many more millions of dollars have been put into biosecurity since 1999, but he will never quote how much extra passenger and cargo traffic there has been. He will not mention that. There has been a 96 percent increase in container movements alone. Did the Minister know that? He did not know that. The last time he was anywhere near a port was when he was at the airport, coming into Wellington. He had no idea that was the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo the amount that the Government has put in, percentage-wise, compared to the increase in traffic, is miniscule, and the Minister knows it. He needs to go back and use his now-elevated position as No. 1 in a caucus of one, use that horsepower, to beat up the Minister of Finance and say that the biggest single risk to this country is the threat to our biosecurity. Of course, the Minister will make light of it, and, of course, the Minister of Finance will spit him out like he does all the other ill-prepared Ministers who turn up and do not know their portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHere is a figure that the Minister will not be aware of: 16,000 tonnes of foreign ballast water are estimated to be discharged into New Zealand waters each year. The question we need to ask is how the sea squirt got here. Well, 16,000 tonnes of foreign ballast water is discharged into New Zealand each year. The Minister should fix it while he has a chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00228c76a3b447bf49c38e51f55cd2f1a6f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c76a3b447bf49c38e51f55cd2f1a6f1\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting this bill through all its stages. We do not often do that for bills that have not first been referred to a select committee, but we recognise that this bill is solving a problem that happens from time to time in legislation, and it is quite right that Parliament should fix it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EBiosecurity is a critical aspect of the Greens conservation policy and process, and we take it very seriously indeed. In our view, any biosecurity strategy must be based on a precautionary approach and must recognise that many pest incursions are irreversible and should therefore promote the lowest practical risk approach to the way biosecurity is managed. We need only consider the didymo incursion to understand that it is not good enough to take time over these incursions when they occur. Didymo was found in the Lower Waiau and Mararoa rivers in Southland in October of 2004, and although I think that Biosecurity New Zealand did some good work on this issue, it is not good enough to wait until the problem gets bigger before serious and severe measures are put in place. For example, the research on how to kill didymo should have begun immediately after it was found, not a year later, because in September 2005 didymo was found in the Tasman district, in the upper reaches of the Buller River, in the Otago region, in the H\u0101wea, Upper Clutha, and Von rivers, and in additional rivers in Southland, the Oreti and the Upper Waiau. Of course the whole of the South Island is a controlled area, and it is not good enough that we allowed this to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI do not think, and the Greens do not think, that the extreme dependence of our biosecurity measures on the education of New Zealanders and on individual responsibility will work effectively. It is not the best strategy. But it must be said that if New Zealanders do truly appreciate their environment and do hold it in the esteem that we frequently say we do, then we should all take more responsibility for the impact that our actions have on the environment, and on the biosecurity risks that our behaviour imposes. The Greens believe that from the outset all possible restrictions must be used to prevent the introduction and spread of biosecurity risks. Biosecurity processes must consider the harmful effects of toxins on human and non-target species and ensure that chemicals are used only as a last resort. The National Party suggested that somehow all the rivers in the South Island should suffer some form of chemical blasting with chlorine. That would kill everything, in an effort to get rid of potentially this one little thing. [Interruption] It was an insane suggestion, clearly made by people who have no concept of what it means to be environmentally responsible, and I am so pleased that nobody has taken that suggestion the least bit seriously. Instead, people have recognised it as being ridiculously stupid, as it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe would like to see the Biosecurity Act include, as part of its purpose, the need to protect New Zealand from pest diseases and from GE organisms. We would like regional councils to be required to develop pest management strategies that cover both public and private land, and we believe we should encourage the preparation of pest management strategies that are ecosystem based as well as species based. There is no point in trying to attack individual species if we do not take an ecosystem approach, and that in fact is increasingly a part of the policy development process for conservation in general. We would like to see it included more in biosecurity, and, of course, there must be consideration of the cumulative impacts of biodiversity associated with imports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EImporters must have, and take, a greater level of responsibility for the biosecurity risks they pose. We would like to see increased funding for implementing biosecurity risk assessments and invasion response measures, supported through a levy on importers and people arriving at our borders. We believe that importers should be required to pay the full cost of eradication when negligence or non-compliance has been demonstrated by them. We need to enhance our ability to prevent exotic species from entering New Zealand and our ability to respond to any incursions that do occur. We have to continue with public education. We should be looking more seriously at the offshore inspection of containers, at increasing staff training and providing staff with the technology they need to do the job they want to do, and at making sure there is an emergency response fund that is well supported so that it can be effective. We also need to begin permanent pest surveillance programmes in and around all ports. We need risk assessments for exotic organisms, to consider their potential impacts on indigenous species and ecosystems, and on rural and urban environments, in addition to those on primary production and human health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is a significant issue for the whole country. If we do not impose severe and costly penalties on importers who, through negligence or non-compliance, put our country at risk, New Zealand will be seen as too soft on these issues, and the cost to our environment, our economy, and our people will be extreme. We have only one little country, and we have to protect it as best we can. We must give equal importance to biosecurity threats to the marine environment as we do to the terrestrial environment. We need much more caution and more stringent measures for marine biosecurity threats. We must take more seriously the risk that pollution, for example, imposes on our marine life. We have an exceptional abundance of marine life and ecosystems in our seas. Research is being undertaken in the Sounds to look at the medicinal properties of marine life that were hitherto unknown to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E One of the major threats, for example, to the Hector\u2019s and Maui dolphins, after gill-nets, is pollution of their habitats by toxins flowing into the sea from rivers, the dumping of sewage into the sea, and the dumping of wastes from dredging and seabed prospecting and mining. Biosecurity forms one part of the protection measures we can take to ensure that our endangered and critically endangered species are protected and that we do not continue to lose species in this country. If we do not take biosecurity issues extremely seriously and impose severe and mandatory controls and penalties, we risk a huge amount in our country. So, in terms of this bill, we are very pleased that the legislative lacuna will be filled, but it is only a small part of what needs to be done to truly protect our beautiful country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00224336f08ad2564502819d2ddacc6425f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224336f08ad2564502819d2ddacc6425f2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will support this bill in all its stages. We received a copy of it only an hour or so ago and, as the Minister who opened the debate said in his speech, it comes about because of\u2014to use nautical language\u2014a Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry stuff-up. The ministry got it wrong. There was an oversight, and this bill is now urgently needed because of the possibility of the Crown being exposed to civil action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI agree with Shane Ardern, who spoke a little while ago, that the biggest single risk to this country\u2019s security is biosecurity. I would like to explain to Shane Ardern\u2014my colleague and, I think, my friend\u2014a little about ships\u2019 ballast, because he seemed to be making a little bit of noise about that. Shipowners are very conscious of the problems that a ship\u2019s ballast brings with it. Currently, an overseas ship that is coming to New Zealand is meant to exchange ballast in mid-ocean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221925da14102b418f9c17017af5e03da0\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re meant to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d073c54aac464de2bb80e99342345e0e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Ships are meant to, and they make certain entries in their log books to that effect. Various shipping lines in various parts of the world are experimenting with heating ships\u2019 ballast from the engines\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022552d2451d0de4e208c7e5c7dbcff0d8b\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s chemical treatment, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba0ae29a3384e65a58bb84d6bf8b3c9\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think that chemical treatment has met with as much success as heating, but shipowners are reluctant to put in major, sophisticated methods to address the issue until they know that it will actually address it. I think I am correct in saying that at the moment the most accepted measure is exchanging the ballast mid-ocean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5c91d1aa82485fbcc120c55754e194\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: But do they do it in rough seas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310cf41a987347e6b9262305afd4258e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It cannot be done in rough seas, if we are talking about large quantities, and it cannot be done all at once; it has to be done progressively, because it affects ships\u2019 stability, stresses, and all those sorts of things. So whether ships exchange their ballast as fully as we would like them to is a debatable point. But I found that most of the people I dealt with in the area of shipping were pretty darn honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOne area that concerns me, when I look at schedule 9, is that only five airports are mentioned. I would have thought that that provision could have been upgraded by now. Hamilton has international airlines coming into its airport, as does Queenstown, I think. As far as I am aware, Greymouth is a port. Maybe in the Committee stage the Minister will tell us why Hamilton, Queenstown, and perhaps some other airports have been excluded, because it is distinctly possible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d52d3be5dc144eea0efbb74c436072a\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: There are two schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa61947c074490d8df76fff38667789\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: On the back page.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276400d33d40c46169f9d1884e42361f6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, there they are: Hamilton, Dunedin, Invercargill, Palmerston North, Queenstown, and Tauranga. But where is Greymouth? I thank the member for alerting me to that. I had not read the bill as far as that. Greymouth is not recorded as a port.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273ced63a1d3b4fecb3d1b74efab625cf\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Tauranga is named with other ports. That\u2019s not even in the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ac21e660764bd491ff8e0426fff416\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Tauranga is not in the main port area. This bill is urgently required. The Minister made that quite clear. I think it is incumbent upon this House to pass it with minimum delay. New Zealand First is quite keen to get on with the job, and we will support the bill through all its stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022da6c9c2917864da4961173b04973f963\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da6c9c2917864da4961173b04973f963\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party to address this bill in the context of its first reading. In the interests of bringing new ideas to this debate, our priority today is to focus particularly on the Biosecurity (Gypsy Moth Levy) Order. The Biosecurity (Gypsy Moth Levy) Order 2004 was made in the context of the Biosecurity Act 1993. The order provides for the levy to be imposed on all shipping containers and used vehicles imported into New Zealand, and is the liability, primarily, of importers, although an importer or a shipping agent must pay the levy. The levy is calculated on the basis of dividing the estimated annual cost of a surveillance programme by the estimated number of shipping containers and used vehicles to be imported annually into New Zealand, and is to be spent on the surveillance programme for the gypsy moth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAlthough we are pleased to see the introduction of the levy, it is the bigger issue around the eradication of the gypsy moth that still remains unresolved. That is an area of particular interest to me, given its implications for the people of T\u0101maki-makau-rau, and, in particular, west Auckland. Just last month it was announced that a report into the health effects of the aerial insecticide spraying in west Auckland found that child asthma rates rose during that spray programme. The report from the Institute of Environmental Science and Research pointed to a plausible link to the spray programme. The report found that, for boys aged up to 4 years, hospital discharge rates for asthma conditions doubled over that period, 2002 to mid-2004, in the exposed population. One parent described his daughter as being hospitalised 28 times in a year with serious asthma. That is a hospital episode every fortnight for a 5-year-old girl. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EOur particular concern with the linking of the moth spray to the incidence of respiratory diseases is the greater M\u0101ori asthma morbidity. The M\u0101ori asthma review concluded that asthma was more severe in M\u0101ori and that hospitalisation and mortality rates for M\u0101ori exceeded those of non-M\u0101ori. The review states that M\u0101ori are no more likely than non-M\u0101ori to develop asthma but that once they get it, it is more severe and tends to last longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe economic burden of asthma to New Zealand has been conservatively estimated as $800 million per year. For the sake of our society, our economy, and our community well-being, we must be vigilant in stamping out any factors that may serve to threaten our future progress as a nation. Eradication of the gypsy moth may not be as critical as the insecticide introduced to kill it. It must always be considered that in doing whatever we do to get rid of a particular problem, we must not increase the likelihood of other illnesses. In a way, it is like using a wet towel to hit a moth on a light bulb. Sure, we might get rid of the moth, but in the process we might end up in the dark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002225d6242048d74ebc8c2720597f1a658b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225d6242048d74ebc8c2720597f1a658b\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT will support the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill at its first reading, as it is obvious that urgent attention is needed for the problems that it seems have only just come to light. I think that that serves as a warning to us, and we should take it very seriously, as my colleague in the National Party Shane Ardern pointed out. The present Minister for Biosecurity says that we have the best biosecurity in the world, as did the previous Minister for Biosecurity, but the very fact that we are here in the House today debating this issue, under urgency, perhaps suggests otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis legislation is an amendment to the Biosecurity Act 1993, to correct historical oversights. As the Minister pointed out, those consequences were unintended, but we must take unintended consequences very seriously. One of the objections we often have to urgency is that bills go through all their stages in the House. They are not open to public scrutiny through the select committee process, which is where the public are able to make submissions, and therefore things are often missed out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAs others have pointed out, the bill is necessary because of an administrative failure by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. The ministry failed to approve ports of first arrival under the Act before transitional approvals expired. Some of the briefing papers we have had suggest that the issue really only came to light at the beginning of November. But the failures by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry occurred in 1995 and 1998, so those historical failures, unintentional though they were, in fact go back some way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI come back to the reason for the legislation. To fix things we now need to designate ports as approved places of first arrival but, more important, legislation is also needed, retrospectively, to deem courts to be approved. ACT has frequently spoken out, particularly during periods of urgency, about retrospective legislation being put forward in this House. Probably the most famous piece of retrospective legislation was the legislation to save Harry Duynhoven\u2019s bacon. We do object vocally, loudly, and often, to the fact that retrospective legislation comes before this House during urgency when proper scrutiny is not able to be given to it. We might find ourselves less likely to have to go back and amend legislation if that proper scrutiny did in fact occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIt is very interesting at this time to look at the Crown Law opinion. The question should really be asked: does Crown Law think we have the best biosecurity in the world? I would suggest from the paper it put forward making comments on this issue that, no, it does not. The issues arising pending the introduction or passage of this bill have been put forward by Crown Law, which says that without this legislation there is no general power to inspect unaccompanied goods outside a transitional facility, and that it will be unclear what questions a person must answer after making the initial declaration about the presence of specified goods. Crown Law goes on to say that it will be unclear how long a person must remain at the port while inquiries are being undertaken and, lastly, that inspectors do not have the power to use reasonable force to require a person to be detained, so the power to search people will often be ineffective. Now, does that constitute the best biosecurity in the world? I do not think so, and neither does Crown Law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EA little further down in the same document, however, Crown Law comments that the bill as presently drafted would retrospectively immunise inspectors and the Crown from civil liability in relation to trespass, goods, false imprisonment, etc. So it is important that we have this legislation, but the question must be asked, particularly of the ministry: how did this situation arise in the first place? Crown Law says that the sooner the bill is introduced, the better the chance that there will not be any successful claims of that kind. I guess that in the greater scheme of things, that is correct, but with such glaring holes in the legislation perhaps concern will not be unfounded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe retrospective aspect of the bill does not resolve issues relating to the constitutional principle that Governments should operate under law, and Dr Cullen should be very worried about that, if he is worried about good law-making. Good laws are enforceable and routinely enforced\u2014I suspect Dr Cullen would probably agree with that statement\u2014and they should be. Perhaps what we need to think about very carefully, in light of the fact that this legislation is necessary at all, is that all laws should regularly be reviewed to see what loopholes exist and, in fact, whether they are necessary. We have some very old and outdated laws in this country, and it would be a pertinent time to think about whether many of those should be reviewed at regular intervals. So constitutional principles should not be ignored during this debate. I think we have talked a lot about various biosecurity issues, but the broader principles should not be ignored either during the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ECrown Law noted that it is also undesirable for international airlines and passengers daily to be committing technical breaches of the Act. I just reinforce my position that law should be enforceable and regularly enforced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAlthough there are many problems there, and ACT agrees that they must be attended to very swiftly, there are warnings around the whole issue of why it took so long for the matter to be picked up in the first place, and the issue of why the previous Minister and this Minister continue to maintain that we have the best biosecurity in the world when, in fact, our biosecurity measures have such glaring holes in them. ACT will support this bill, but we would like some consideration, particularly during the Committee stage, to discuss the issues further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f16796ff85e417890237b9dc5cfafda\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u00223cf908afbf5a452aaa8d150185904301\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cf908afbf5a452aaa8d150185904301\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. As I said at the first reading, the bill is needed to ensure that persons and the Crown who, because of a technicality, have inadvertently not complied with the law are protected from civil action. I have to say that the National member for Taranaki \u2013 King Country blunders around where angels fear to tread. I mean, in 1993, 1995, and 1998 was I or any member on this side of the House in charge of this matter? I do not think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229013b9ccb09a41789b068a8f60999ac3\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: What was the Opposition doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242c2305aed41478bbbd7916485a625d2\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I see, it was the Opposition\u2019s fault. I just missed that. National was governing, but it was our fault! I see; that is how it works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI say to New Zealand First that the Port of Greymouth is approved under the original process in the Act, so that does not need to be mentioned in the schedule. For the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s benefit I say that a close analysis of the spraying programme in west Auckland for painted apple moth does not show any conclusive connection between the rates of reported medical conditions and the spraying itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EAs a consequence of non-approval of ports of first arrival, it was an offence, for example, when persons in charge of a craft failed to enter a designated port of entry, or when uncleared goods were permitted to leave a craft and did not proceed to a biosecurity control area. It is possible that persons arriving in New Zealand would be deemed not to have proceeded through a biosecurity control area, and that port operators represented a port as \u201Capproved\u201D when no approval was actually given. So all those unintended consequences flowed on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill is needed\u2014I think all members and parties have indicated that. I recommend that the bill proceed as quickly as possible through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00222b51f84e3298444b814cf9b0b2b4c352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b51f84e3298444b814cf9b0b2b4c352\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with the Minister. In 1993 it was a National Government, and again in 1995 and 1998. But that was the forty-fifth Parliament. Which Parliament are we in now? Maybe the Minister has forgotten. He has been here a long time, and he has been through so many Parliaments he cannot remember. This is the forty-eighth Parliament. Let me just say this. That Minister has been a Deputy Prime Minister in that time, and it has taken him until today to pass legislation that will be enacted on 13 December. Currently out in the wide world it is 14 December. Those who are listening on radio are confused already when one tells them that the bill is being passed on the 13th and it is the 14th, but in Parliament that is what happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ECan I also challenge the Green Party member who said\u2014and it certainly is linked to the discussions that the Minister just had about the need to close up this gap\u2014that I from the National Party had suggested we should go out and attack all the rivers in the South Island. I did not. When didymo was first found in the South Island it was in the bottom third of two rivers in Southland. So I suggested that there may be a way\u2014and I know that there is, because many people have made submissions along this line\u2014of chemically treating those rivers. Yes, it would have been devastating to the biodiversity in the bottom third of those rivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022958177196fc54d43adc542634f152e2e\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It is a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c89b7e1e74446b78475956c2f8450b7\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know what the problem was. The Labour Government was scared about what Green Party members\u2014the rest of its twig and feather mates, on whom it relies for support\u2014would do, so it never even considered that option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E I tell members that the pristine rivers in the whole of the South Island are now contaminated with an algae that will absolutely devastate the biodiversity of those rivers. The members of the Green Party will say that they stand for green principles. I ask them to reconcile that for me because I cannot figure it out. Perhaps the Green member will take a call and tell me how that is so. The bottom third of two rivers in the South Island would have been devastated, under the proposal that I am suggesting, for about 2 years and then the biodiversity would have returned. That is what I understand to be the case. If members want to know where this information came from, I got it from the Minister\u2019s office\u2014surprise, surprise. So I ask the Green Party member to do some research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere is a bigger issue even than didymo at stake here. It is the fact that our biosecurity, both in terms of our legislation and in terms of the adequacy of the Minister and the Government to respond, has gaping holes in it. It is a historic issue that has been inadvertently discovered, as it were. It is a bit like the bee varroa mite when it came across our borders, and 5 years after it was here the Government announced a strategy. This Government, the Government of Mr Anderton\u2014the member ranked No. 1 in a caucus of one\u2014has decided to introduce a strategy to contain the bee varroa mite 5 years after it was introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister, for goodness\u2019 sake, over the summer months, to sit down with his advisers and to let them bring him up to speed. The director-general is a fine chap, I am sure the Minister will agree, and he will be on top of some of this stuff. I ask the Minister to give him the time to bring him up to speed, please, for the sake of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister has done that, I suggest that he ask a few hard questions about how, even though we have all these grand overviews about how we have the best biosecurity in the world, we have endless incursions\u2014weekly incursions, in fact. The Minister has just resigned himself to not even trying to eradicate. He has just walked away and washed his hands\u2014and he will not be able to wash his hands in the South Island rivers any more, because they will come out covered in didymo. I ask him, for goodness\u2019 sake, to get on top of the portfolio and have a look at some of the gaps in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EEven if that does not work\u2014and I suspect it will not\u2014I ask the Minister to listen to some of the international advice. Professor Roger Morris has put together many, many discussion papers on this, and the Minister and his officials will not listen to that advice. The Minister might find that he can do this within baselines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI notice that the Minister of Finance is in the Chamber, which is very good, because if he looks at what has been spent on some of these belated eradication attempts that have failed, he will find that it is millions of dollars. A little more should have been spent on surveillance in some areas and on strategy upfront in terms of an instant response, and I agree with the Green Party member who suggested we should have had an instant response to didymo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe Government knew about this problem in October 2004. Here we are now, in December 2005, and about 3 days ago the Government released a strategy whereby people had to wash their fishing rods and were not to go across Cook Strait with dirty gear. What was wrong with the Government doing something straight away, particularly when it knew that there was something it could have done? Why did the Government not do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EInstead of sitting over there laughing and carrying on when somebody suggests an alternative, the Minister needs to hold his officials to account and ask them why they never, at least, considered that option. The Minister can laugh and go on, but we already know what the answer is. The Minister is too closely aligned with the twig and feather brigade that he depends on for his support. The Green members said it was impossible to treat the bottom third of two rivers in the South Island because the biodiversity in them would be devastated, so we will just have to live with didymo, which will devastate the biodiversity in all of the rivers of the South Island until it comes into the North Island and then it will do it there as well. The Minister needs to take some account of what has happened there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe sea squirt situation is, of course, yet another area where we have no strategy. We are chasing it around the country, hopscotch. There are ways of treating that, which are biodegradable and will not devastate the environment. The Minister will be aware of them. He can sit over there, chirp away like some kind of budgie, and support the rest of his team, but the reality is that there is a way of treating that. Why not do it? [Interruption] The Minister should go and talk to his advisers, because they can tell him. They have told me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI tell the Minister to go and talk to his own department. There is a way of treating sea squirt. For didymo, it is too late. The Minister has allowed it to go. He has let that go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ce1605258b4778884e20d0ec3b6db7\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: We could not have treated it before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4719b463a874038b7e9dc18e8a7ca6e\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It could have been treated, in the two rivers where it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c117a1bd727c42eb9b2665e7c6b354b1\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: How could we have treated it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287583aaa501e4b5a936692d2fa1c7e2a\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister knows the answer, and I am not going to bother with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ELet me just say to the Minister that 19.9 tonnes of fruit fly material came into this country last year, carried by people. What will the Minister do about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d721540927d74f96a572f2e4d0fe8bdc\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to spray them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223285809a17194b2bb4403e5ea7f0576e\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I would not mind spraying the Minister, but the people do not need spraying. What we need is thorough checks. I ask the Minister to listen to this figure, because clearly he is not aware of it\u2014people at airports carried 9.3 tonnes of meat and poultry products into this country last year on their person. How is that able to happen? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe Minister sits there, laughs, and makes light of it. This country is at huge risk of a foot-and-mouth outbreak, and the Minister sits there and thinks it is a big joke. That shows the depth of this Minister\u2014absolutely none; zero depth. He is going to go out and hug and cuddle all these people. When he first became the Minister, he gave a speech and said: \u201CI\u2019m the Minister who gets things done.\u201D I remember this Minister telling us he was also the \u201CMinister of Lower Petrol Prices\u201D. Do members remember that? This Minister needs to go out and get something done about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EBiosecurity is a major problem. Three tonnes of seeds came into this country last year, in grannies\u2019 little handbags. And that Minister has done nothing about that, either. If the agriculture sector wants to import a new cultivar of some sort and it has to go through the hazardous substances system, which of course is a robust one, it cannot get it through. But granny can bring it in, in her handbag. The Minister will say that we have the best biosecurity system in the world. People carried 5,829 plants into this country last year, on their person. The Minister would not know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d46c622bc48411b8d32cce84ab1f0d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Where did you get that from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a19ac94cbc49f0b23c8788d404d3bc\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I got it from his department. He would not know that, because he has never bothered to have a briefing. He should have a briefing from his own department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c3c76d4be1436ba6cfee103aa0b0bd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No you didn\u2019t. You stole those facts and that speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31798dae3a1413086f319651093a2dc\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Stole them from where?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022242bba9cb5f44d86b842d89333478a67\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: From that Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfa33aa343f34c35b615da35fb7aabc2\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: How could I steal them from that Minister? That Minister does not even know that they exist. How could I steal them from there? I did not get them from that member. The member got them from me. [Interruption] I am on my feet, here. That member got them from me. That is where they came from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9593e0572c541498bad81e5207a3062\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes you did, it is 4 months old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8ee7f71ebb497b9167775cc860398d\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It is more than that. It is about 8 months old. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe saltmarsh mosquito cost $36 million\u2014the Minister of Finance might want to know this\u2014and the list still goes on. Do something!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da404153f9e844be83efeab4872ae4ef\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022db609488fcee45a1bed63ac299cc459d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db609488fcee45a1bed63ac299cc459d\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for us to proceed forthwith to the third reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0f610a9f43462b9823d7ab00470594\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to proceed to the third reading. Is there any objection? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7011428b8b745a6af1dd8796485411c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d88879c63e7a41c0a4b712caf56d87f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d88879c63e7a41c0a4b712caf56d87f6\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002280af0c8bee984ebb94c094ed95a8345a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280af0c8bee984ebb94c094ed95a8345a\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E The Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill is unfortunate in terms of the parliamentary process, because we have had here an oversight that has gone through a series of checks and balances and has not been picked up. It demonstrates that clearly there are huge gaps in our biosecurity in this country. If something as basic as this can slip through in Parliament, where law is supposedly drafted, checked, implemented, and then followed up by officials, it is no wonder that whole shiploads of stuff can slip through in the middle of the night. It is no wonder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E The Minister Jim Anderton\u2019s biosecurity is full of as many holes as this bill is here to fix up. The Minister needs to get off his chuff over the summer months and get on top of this portfolio. He is now in charge of a very important area, and I have seen no evidence at all that the public of New Zealand can have any confidence, so far, in what the Minister proposes to do. The Minister is clearly either suffering from the after-effects of whatever he was on last night or lacking what it is that he should be on. He is sitting there giggling like some demented teenager at some of the serious things that have been put forward here today, and he is not, in any way, attempting to address them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EDuring part of the time that this obvious deficiency existed in the legislation, this Minister was the Deputy Prime Minister of the country. How many people knew that? Not very many\u2014about as many as those who know that he is ranked No. 1 in his caucus of one. The Minister, who now has that high ranking, should do something, and so far we have seen no evidence of him doing so. We have seen Jim Anderton give speeches to a number of different outfits, and he has said: \u201CI\u2019m the Minister who gets out and does things. I\u2019m the Minister who fixes things up.\u201D Well, I am not sure that the Minister of Finance, who is sitting next to him, is as confident in Jim Anderton\u2019s ability to get things fixed up as Mr Anderton is. The Minister needs to do something, in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe first thing is that the Minister for Biosecurity needs to be in touch with his own department. In 2002 MAF Biosecurity released a paper on the future funding of biosecurity services. That paper asked about industries being involved in pest management strategies. In two major speeches so far, the Minister has said that there cannot be a pest management strategy until there is an incursion. It is mad to do that. So we get a situation like the one we had with the post-weaning multisystemic wasting syndrome in pigs, in which the industry itself was misguidedly led to believe that when something like that happened, the Government would be there with a strategy to fix it up. Of course, we had years of inaction and of virtually nothing happening at all. There was a lot of discussion and no action. Ultimately, the industry said to the former Minister: \u201CLook, Minister, if you had told us that that was the case, we might have been prepared to put in some dough ourselves.\u201D So why does this Minister not talk to industries\u2014in particular, to our primary industries\u2014and say to them that this is a big threat to New Zealand and our economy, and that obviously it is in the national interest for those threats to be addressed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ENational understands that industry may be prepared to get alongside us and work with us. This Minister will not do that\u2014never in his life will he do that. The simple reason is that philosophically he is deadly opposed to it. It would be like talking to them\u2014to those who might know what they are talking about\u2014and accepting their advice. We could not have that\u2014not under this Government. It will never happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what happened with the varroa bee mite, we see the reality that it took the Government 5 years to implement what is now a very inadequate strategy. We do not even know what that will cost the country. Has the Minister ever considered what that will cost the arable industries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d77ceb7e4b04b5fa07c6360dfa09493\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: How do you fix the varroa bee mite?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc95867e02194c4182be7d5043d58a22\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it cannot be fixed now that the Government has let it go. It is a permanent resident. We will not even be able to keep it out of the South Island. How good is this Minister\u2014can he keep it out of the South Island? Can he stand up in the House today and tell South Islanders that it will never go into the South Island? This Minister cannot even guarantee that the varroa bee mite will not go across to the South Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b55b22f114a45948fefdbad0bff83d6\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to guarantee it won\u2019t go out of the South Island?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee1f9c31d354b6d8070550dbec849f2\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister could have guaranteed it would not come into New Zealand if he had done something about it. He knew about it in time to actually treat it. They got rid of it in northern Australia\u2014in a much greater geographical area than we have. How did they do it? What did they do? The Minister might want to have a look at what the Aussies did. I am not one who likes being beaten by the Aussies, but this Minister accepts it without any trouble at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EOn average, every day in this country 337 people are caught at our airports bringing in something that is a biosecurity risk. What has the Minister done about that? What has the Government in its 5 years done about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f3179588bc4836a79edd6e212c18ee\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve caught them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fefeb3b691141f482e0aa3ef2b259ab\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK, so what about the ones that have not been caught? Biosecurity New Zealand, the Minister\u2019s own department, estimates that only 90 percent are caught, at best. So what will the Minister say in response to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022196477717bfc430a99ed5cf4a40c7a9a\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: What are you going to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7fb426372c7463abf295a57b9843c1f\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we will certainly do a bit more than what this Minister is doing, which is absolutely nothing. So far we have seen from the Minister a lot of hot air and absolutely no action. He needs to realise what a threat this is to the country and get on top of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister of Finance whether he knows that the painted apple moth has so far cost $52 million, and that $794,000 a year is allocated on trying to control that alien. Did he know that? The reality is that if that money had been spent upfront on surveillance, there would not be that ongoing cost. That is a typical, short-sighted approach of: \u201CLet\u2019s try to fix it up once it gets in here.\u201D The Minister of Finance needs to talk to his Minister for Biosecurity and get him to do something about that, because he is costing the Government and the country a lot of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Biosecurity has so far shown an absolute lack of knowledge of what he is supposed to be doing. I repeat for the Minister that under section 69A of the Biosecurity Act a national pest management strategy must specify the following matters\u2014the Minister needs to hear this\u2014it must specify the pest, first of all, and then the strategy or management process in terms of eradicating that pest. That is what must happen under the Act. The Biosecurity Act also states that any person may prepare a proposal for national pest management strategies. How does that square with the two speeches from the Minister that said we cannot have a pest management strategy until there is an incursion? His Act actually requires that there be a pest management strategy. The Minister is in breach of his own Act, and he does not even understand that. So I suggest he read the Act over the Christmas period, and once he has read it he should be able to see the inadequacies in it, such as the one that we are here today to fix up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHe should get some good advice, though; he should not rely on the advice he has been taking so far. He should not talk to the feather and twig brigade; he should get some proper advice. He should get some solid support for his ministry. He should talk to his colleague the Minister of Finance and get some horsepower into this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002241b584b5654d43ccadb8bff9dffd928d\u0022\u003ESubordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260a43530604f46efa4660ca918d8489b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002215e773e6a207422aaf7a2fe954f9a839\u0022\u003EPart 1  General and technical provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf7e833ab5174a5a84b17c1890e4585f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf7e833ab5174a5a84b17c1890e4585f\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E National will support the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill. It is the confirmation and validation of a number of pieces of legislation, mainly of a technical nature. Part 1, which consists of general and technical provisions, does not really inspire great debate and I will not be taking major calls on it. However, I will have something specific to say when we get to Part 2, and that will relate to the biosecurity aspect, which, interestingly, we have just been talking about in respect of the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill. It is interesting that this legislation follows that bill, because I will be saying some specific things on that. I will also be looking at the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act, which is an important piece of legislation that we will find in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cd01bc5834a415db0dfad51566a7952\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: As I said prior to the luncheon break, one cannot get too enthusiastic about this bill. However, it is important legislation in that it confirms and validates a number of pieces of legislation that would otherwise cause a lot of embarrassment and concern to people who might miss out, especially in the area of superannuation. As I said earlier, I will probably look at that issue in the debate on Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI just draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the report from the Regulations Review Committee that has been tabled. It is a very short report. Let us consider whom the committee consists of. It is chaired by Dr Richard Worth, and if anybody has an understanding of legislation, it must be Dr Worth. He has chaired that committee over the last 3 years, and continues to chair it. His understanding, and his ability to crystallise and articulate the arguments that are so important in the important legislation that we are discussing today, is a credit to him. Also on the committee are Eric Roy and Kate Wilkinson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d2641bf1d54b06a877ca9d3d8d07a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the A-team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229030967fd2cd450ab2bb51a7c13e99b0\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the Minister that it is a good team of people who actually understand the technicalities and how this sort of legislation needs to be progressed. The Minister said it was the A-team\u2014well, Eric Roy was a member of the House some years ago, and he has a deep understanding and can contribute to this process. Kate Wilkinson is a lawyer, and her legal background is important and adds value to the process of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EPart 1 looks at general and technical provisions, and states that the bill\u2019s purpose is to confirm and validate certain subordinate legislation in accordance with confirmation and validation provisions in the Acts under which it is made. Part 1 really sets the scene for what becomes important in Part 2, where there are specific issues that need attention drawn to. I will take a call on Part 2, mainly in relation to biosecurity. Of course, just prior to the luncheon adjournment we passed all stages of the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill. That ties nicely into Part 2 in relation to the Biosecurity Act 1993. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe other area that I think is significant relates to the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001 and the Social Security Act 1964. We will be spending time on that. I do not wish to take further time on Part 1. As I said, National will support this bill. Part 1 just relates to the general and technical provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00221f37976fe0ee4e219c0774f42086e557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f37976fe0ee4e219c0774f42086e557\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am grateful for the comments made by the colleague who preceded me, in connection with the Regulations Review Committee and its membership. He is right to say that the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill is not exactly bowel-gripping stuff. We are at the moment dealing with Part 1, \u201CGeneral and technical provisions\u201D. Those provisions find their way before Parliament each year, for each year involves the enactment of legislation of this type. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere are a number of points of significance in connection with Part 1. The first relates to the purpose of the legislation. The bill is described as being \u201Cto confirm and validate certain subordinate legislation that, in accordance with confirmation and validation provisions in the Acts under which it is made, lapses at a stated time unless earlier confirmed or validated by Act of Parliament.\u201D We are talking about subordinate legislation that, in effect, has a sunset clause. Unless this confirmation and validation process occurs, the legislation is effectively spent. In looking at the actual orders that are confirmed, because of their levy characteristics and the obligations for consultation it is clearly appropriate that there be the lapse of that subordinate legislation unless validated by Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe bill is headed \u201CSubordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u201D. I will talk for a few moments about what is implicit in that word \u201Csubordinate\u201D. We in this Chamber are used to passing bills that in due time become Acts or statutes. In the world of subordinate legislation we are not talking about Acts or statutes, at all. We are talking about regulations, rules, and notices. The curious thing, in the setting of the Regulations Review Committee, is that not all subordinate legislation is within the purview of the committee. That is why, in June 2004, the committee reported to Parliament on an inquiry into the principles determining whether delegated legislation is given the status of regulation. Some subordinate legislation is amenable to the jurisdiction of the committee, and other legislation is not. That seems clearly anomalous\u2014that was certainly the view of the committee. When the Government produced its response to the committee report, that seemed, similarly, to be the response of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI urge the Government, in the context of the debate on Part 1, to take up a challenge that was issued by the Regulations Review Committee\u2014to line up the definition of \u201Cregulations\u201D in the Regulations (Disallowance) Act 1989 and the Interpretation Act 1999 with the definition of \u201Clegislative instrument\u201D as set out in Australia\u2019s Legislative Instruments Act 2003. That was too much for the Government to digest at first opportunity. Instead, it sought a lapse of time so that it could look more closely at how the Australian legislation was working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe are concerned here with subordinate legislation that is amenable to Regulations Review Committee oversight. But such is not always the case. In this particular instance, the committee wrote to the seven Government departments responsible for administering this legislation to ask them to explain why confirmation or validation was warranted. Those particular Government entities were the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, the Ministry of Economic Development, the Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Fisheries, the Ministry of Social Development, the New Zealand Customs Service, and the New Zealand Defence Force. Those Government agencies were able to satisfy the committee that it was appropriate for this legislation to be passed, so the committee recommended that course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fd73aad056f41bc8f6b75381ccc0e5c\u0022\u003EPart 2  Confirmations and validations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00220dc8260313f0403ca5ce8b987e4d5b10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dc8260313f0403ca5ce8b987e4d5b10\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is a continuation of the Committee stage of the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill, which National supports. We see in Part 2 a listing of a number of statutes, including the Animal Products Act and the Biosecurity Act, and I understand that Mr Tisch will speak on the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act. Under those Acts, subordinate legislation is made that is required to be in some cases confirmed, and in three cases validated and confirmed. Those three validation and confirmation orders relate to orders made under the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act and the Social Security Act; the Tariff Act; and the War Pensions Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E In what I hope will be the first of many calls on this important Part 2, I would just like to take as an example the Biosecurity Act 1993. It is an interesting illustration, because Parliament is asked to confirm two orders. The first is the Biosecurity (Gypsy Moth Levy) Order and the second is the Biosecurity (Varroa (South Island) Beekeeper Levy) Order. I will deal first with the issue of the gypsy moth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EMembers who were on the select committee will know that that is one of the world\u2019s most destructive forestry pests. So it was that Minister Sutton said that it took 2 years from the trapping of the final moth to declare a pest eradicated, and the last and only Asian gypsy moth in the city of Hamilton was trapped on 26 March 2003. In looking at the issue of gypsy moth around the world, it is quite clear it is a hugely destructive forest pest. Particularly in North America, forests have been savaged by the emergence of the gypsy moth from the egg-larva cycle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI note that in April 2004 the then representative of the Green Party on issues of biosecurity noted that we needed, on an ongoing basis, to be extraordinarily vigilant in a setting where Asian gypsy moth egg masses were discovered on an imported vehicle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI have said that the legislation is made under the Biosecurity Act. I think what is interesting in connection with those two levies is that two quite separate sections of the Biosecurity Act are involved. The first is section 137, which relates to the gypsy moth provision, and that particular statutory provision states that the Governor-General, on the recommendation of the responsible Minister, may by Order in Council impose a levy for the purposes of funding a service or function performed by the department for the purposes of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIf we look at the orders themselves, we see they are cast in a very similar way, but I note one striking difference between the two of them\u2014that is, in connection with the varroa mite, conscientious objection provisions are built into the order itself. So under clause 18, headed \u201CConscientious objection\u201D, a beekeeper who objects on conscientious or religious grounds to paying the levy in the manner provided for by that order, may pay the amount concerned to the Director-General of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe are privileged to have in the House the Minister of Finance, who has special expertise concerning the varroa mite, and I invite him to make some explanation as to why it was appropriate in that particular levy order to include that conscientious objection provision. Why is it appropriate to provide, as a ground for objection to payment of the levy, the provision that in fact exists in this legislation? So a number of orders are referred to in Part 2, and those are two of the more interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002229400490344942f2a3a6551ee8c44235\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229400490344942f2a3a6551ee8c44235\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 deals with confirmations and validations. I mentioned briefly in the debate on Part 1 that I wanted to look specifically at two areas, one being the Biosecurity Act of 1993, and that I would mention in passing clause 13, \u201CNew Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001 and the Social Security Act 1964\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI have a question for the Minister, however, which maybe should have come up in the debate on Part 1. He may be able to respond to my question: as we are dealing with clauses that expire, as there needs to be consultation, and as the levies go up each year\u2014that is the process we are going through\u2014is there a proposition that under the sunset clause provisions we are dealing with, there will be a tidier way of going through that process, without having to come back on an annual basis to go through it? I see he is shaking his head\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ecd30037f0c4cd68a629286aaf70d1b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important that Parliament validates and confirms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267bc1cd2cc69412196f5882d01ac5f37\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister be prepared to take a call shortly, just to say why we go through the process? It is mainly for the sake of interest that I ask him to do so, because I look at other jurisdictions and see sunset clauses\u2014Australia has moved very much to sunset clauses in a lot of its legislation\u2014and I would really like to know, for my own interest if for no one else\u2019s, why we do this on an annual basis. If the Minister does take a call, I would certainly appreciate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI come back to clause 9 in Part 2, which concerns the whole area of biosecurity, and in particular the gypsy moth levy and the varroa South Island bee-keeper levy. It was interesting that prior to the luncheon break we passed the Biosecurity (Status of Specified Ports) Amendment Bill, which National supported because it is our view that nothing is more important than biosecurity. We must have defences, and we must have in place the mechanisms to protect not only our exports but our culture and our heritage. Those things cannot be compromised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Biosecurity Act of 1993, I want to spend time on the varroa mite, which has caused so many problems. It was originally envisaged, of course, that the varroa bee mite would go only as far south as Taup\u014D. Then, over time, it has actually now\u2014oh, yes; the Minister is shaking his head\u2014extended its area throughout the whole of the North Island. My colleague Shane Ardern, during his speech on the previous bill, asked what would happen if the varroa bee mite actually ends up in the South Island. That would be a huge problem for bee-keepers in the South Island, just as it is for those around the rest of New Zealand, and that is why we must make sure that the requirements, levies, and protection for our biosecurity are paramount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIt is our view that the Government has been lax in this area, and that there were very clear indications that the varroa bee mite would become a problem. If it gets into the South Island, then we are in real trouble. I actually mentioned that earlier on, in the first reading debate, before the bill went to the Regulations Review Committee. I do not know what discussion was held specifically on clause 9, which concerns the biosecurity area, during the deliberations of the committee. Maybe my colleague Dr Worth can fill us in on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI also want to draw the attention of the Committee to clause 12, which concerns the Customs and Excise Act 1996, and in particular the Customs Import Prohibition (Trout) Amendment Order. That is a very, very important clause, as it relates to the Waikato, an area I represent, and to trout fishing. The whole trout issue is a very important one for tourism. People travel the world to come and fish for trout, so it is very important that we do not relax the requirements on importing trout, because of its potential effect on tourism. What attracts a lot of overseas people to New Zealand are the trout throughout the Rotorua and Taup\u014D region, and further north into the Waikato. So I bring clause 12 and the prohibition order there to the attention of the Committee. It is very important, and important for our region. I know that Stevie Chadwick is here in the Chamber, and that she would also say that on behalf of Rotorua. She nods her head in agreement with me. She also did that during the first reading of the bill, so I know I am actually on the right track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00228e9fa9e865b54d39bb3aa4f8b9ced3a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e9fa9e865b54d39bb3aa4f8b9ced3a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E If I could try to respond briefly, my understanding is that the conscientious objection clause and the levy issue there relates to similar provisions in the Commodity Levies Act and, therefore, has been carried over into that. In terms of the primary issue raised by Mr Tisch, I think it is very important, where the Government is imposing levies, creating new levies, or increasing levies, and where it is increasing things like superannuation and benefits that have very significant fiscal costs, that Parliament retains its ultimate right of control over those decisions made by the Government. The Government cannot keep coming back for primary legislation every time these kinds of things are required. However, it is important that the Government is simply able to impose them without reference back. On occasions in the past, separate legislation has been required for that confirmation. It is now the practice, and has been for some years, to have a single Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI am afraid I cannot advise the member about the possibility of the South Island being infested by the varroa mite. Clearly, no level of regulation could prevent that from happening. Indeed, there was hope that a line could be drawn somewhere around Taup\u014D, but the varroa bee mite was able to cross that line, and so it spread. As always with those kinds of pests, once they are here we can only manage them. They are not able to be eliminated, because they quickly become widespread throughout the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe member raised one other issue, I think, which has escaped my mind\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab2b181d335f415388b7967929cee114\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I mentioned trout.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213be4c0607ad4698a8d8556e66398a14\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The issue of trout\u2014yes, indeed. The view is commonly held that if trout were able to be farmed, that would somehow reduce the value of freshwater angling for trout, in the same way that if\u2014in a strange and unreal world that one could not possibly imagine\u2014one could buy tinned tuna, that would clearly remove the ambitions of people who want to go deep-sea fishing for wild tuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022034e2f714a9c4939a23eaef5c552fe02\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8db0249f0004b39ab61e16808bed537\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: There will be one debate for clauses 1 and 2. The vote will be separate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002295ac075489d34412951ea7519a3e99a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295ac075489d34412951ea7519a3e99a9\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is important legislation albeit, as I have said, it is not bowel-gripping. I have made a point that I would just like to underscore again in connection with the name of this legislation\u2014the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill. What is in a name, some might ask. But often the importance of a title is understated. It seems to me that two clear principles should dominate the minds of those who name bills. The first is whether the name of the bill accurately reflects the content of the legislation. The second point is that for those who follow in our shoes as legislators or those who study legislation, whether as students or as practitioners, the legislation is logically named. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIf one were looking to find this legislation it might not be an easy exercise. How would one learn the status of the Social Security (Rates of Benefits and Allowances) Order 2005 if one did not know that there was legislation of validation and confirmation? I would like to see, and I know that National would like to see, consideration given to a recommendation of the Regulations Review Committee that the phrase \u201Cregulation\u201D is worthy of review. It is really against that background that the Regulations Review Committee recommended to the Government that an opportunity be taken to define what regulations are, because the reality is that there are a number of pieces of subordinate legislation like these that are not titled regulations, but which, for practical purposes, are regulations and are amenable to the jurisdiction of the Regulations Review Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo if one looks at the Road User Charges (Rates) Order 2005, which is referred to in clause 14, one might think that it is not a regulation. It is expressed, on its face, to be an order. But in the context of the jurisdiction of the Regulations Review Committee and the obligations for publication of orders, it is, in fact, a regulation. That is why it seemed to me, in a compelling way, that it was appropriate to recommend to the Government that it amend the definition of regulations in the Regulations (Disallowance) Act 1989 and in the Interpretation Act 1999 in line with the definition of legislative instrument as set out in the Australian Legislative Instruments Act 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere are a number of justifications for doing that. There is a jurisprudential justification, but I would say there is also a case for aligning as much as we can our legislation with Australia. I express a caution in connection with that, because we should not adopt Australian practices that lead to increased costs of compliance, increased bureaucracy, and the like, but that need not be the case here. If we had a definition of and register of legislative instruments, then much of the difficulty that I have adverted to in my previous comments would not arise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EOf course, we have a commencement date for this legislation in clause 2. The Act will come into force on the day after the date on which it receives the royal assent. That is why, one assumes, we are in urgency for the purposes of the consideration of this legislation: to avoid the possibility that a gap will occur and there will arise for a period an inability on the part of the Crown to collect what are in the nature, in many cases in Part 2, of levies or taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI am not really persuaded by the view Dr Cullen has offered as to why there is a conscientious objection provision in one of these orders. That seems sadly misplaced and out of date in the context of this sort of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2a6dbbfc3344f95ac8be72848dd7486\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2a6dbbfc3344f95ac8be72848dd7486\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I will just finalise the debate for National on the title and commencement date of the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill. One of the important pieces of legislation that is provided for in this bill, which I did briefly mention, is the confirmation of the rates of New Zealand superannuation coming under the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001 and Social Security Act 1964. I just make the comment that if the rates of superannuation are not changed, then we are in a very dire strait. Many, many New Zealanders would be disaffected by that, and it would cause hardship. So the Social Security (Rates of Benefits and Allowances) Order 2005, which was made on 7 March 2005, is validated and confirmed by this bill. When we come back to the title of the bill, we find it actually ties in nicely with that regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThat order increased most benefits and pensions in accord with the all groups consumer price index, which increased by 2.7 percent. In particular, the order increased the amounts of funeral grants and increased the widows benefit, invalids benefit, unemployment benefit, sickness benefit, domestic purposes benefit, child disability benefit, disability benefit, independent youth-related emergency benefit, and the hospital rate. We are confirming and validating a very important regulation today, and that is why the title of this bill encompasses those provisions. The maximum amount of income that a blind beneficiary could earn while still receiving a subsidy was also increased, as were certain asset and income limits. The order also increased the rates of New Zealand superannuation entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn bringing the debate to a close for National, I say we support this legislation. We supported it in the first reading, in the select committee stage, and through the Committee stage and we will also support it in the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9e655f2dca647989e84db1a571d2f0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9e655f2dca647989e84db1a571d2f0f\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the passage of the bill, but I just want to stand and congratulate Mr Worth and Mr Tisch. Every morning when I wake up, I thank God that there are such people as Mr Worth and Mr Tisch in this world, and specifically in this Parliament. I could not bear to do the wonderful work that they do, such as going through all of these bills word by word and clause by clause. I think they do a wonderful job. I think the rest of us in this Parliament, who are more generalist in nature and, dare I say it, have a much more positive outlook on life than they do, thank them sincerely for the work they do. I just could not let this time go by without putting that on the record. I thank those two gentlemen. I appreciate the fact that they are here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa48a0b9beff4fc2a915d5be23a2746f\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000419\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000420\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cfa1d809e8446f6b0ee67a2d6d6fe9e\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002236622bd0bdcf4910b6c5f8df90efb09d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236622bd0bdcf4910b6c5f8df90efb09d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a third time. During a reasonably lengthy Committee stage, we were treated to the full array of legal talent on the National Party benches, with Mr Richard Worth acting as senior counsel and Mr Lindsay Tisch acting as junior counsel. A number of searching and probing questions were asked, such as why the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill was called the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill. The answer to that question is that, after considerable effort, and despite calls in the past by the National Party for a royal commission on this matter to investigate the title, we decided that as it confirms and validates subordinate legislation we might as well give in and call it the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u2014prosaic, I admit, though that title is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5a764e580641a785f77eb4a6af9172\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: It was a great question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279554fa2125e488d83c5eb9104dbe214\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It was a great question. We then had a number of detailed questions. But what I want to dwell on for a few minutes, as this is probably my last speech before Christmas, or maybe the second last\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a49afac072247e5a468a8964c4dedc3\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Horray!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224919e258f4824814b2a51a57a4d59e5d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Members might not cheer so much when they hear the last one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E Mr Tisch quite rightly pointed out the importance of the fact that every year we have an increase in New Zealand superannuation, which this bill validates. I must say I agree very firmly with that. Every year under this Government we have had an increase in the rate of New Zealand superannuation, including in 2000, the first year. This increase was well above the rate of inflation. But I do have to remind Mr Tisch, very gently\u2014I realise he is a young, junior member of this House\u2014that three times under a 9-year National Government there was no annual increase in the rate of New Zealand superannuation. There was no validation of an increase in the rate of New Zealand superannuation, because it was not increased. In 1991, 1992, and 1999 the National Party did not increase the rate of New Zealand superannuation. It was frozen for 3 years out of the 9 years National was in office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESo I welcome this conversion experience on the part of Mr Tisch to the virtues of the annual indexation of New Zealand superannuation. I trust he will stand tall within his caucus when his colleagues start arguing that, in order to pay for tax cuts, they have to freeze the rate of New Zealand superannuation, because that is exactly what happened in 1999. National legislated for a tax cut and, in the same year, for a cut in the level of New Zealand superannuation. The two went together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBut we will not revisit those arguments at this point. It is cruel and unkind to go through them yet again. We shall save them for 2008. The one thing about them is that they do not go stale in the cupboard. They are always fresh when they come out again during election years. So I thank Mr Tisch for reminding me of that fact. He gave me as the architect of the superannuation fund something to talk about that is close to my heart: the current wage banding for New Zealand superannuation, and, from 2007 onwards, the KiwiSaver scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00228f005bda8d224a59995751c725f76d4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f005bda8d224a59995751c725f76d4a\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E We are in the process of passing the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill, which National supports. I would like to record my appreciation, on behalf of the National Party, for the very kind comments made to some of its members in the Committee stage by Mr Woolerton. I also express what I am sure will be the position that, in the unlikely event that the two members nominated for special mention should ever seek to leave this Parliament, they will be able to use the comments that he made as a valuable testimonial for their future gainful employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn accordance with the parliamentary process, this legislation was referred to the Regulations Review Committee, and the committee had the task of judging whether it was appropriate that this legislation be recommended to the House for further passage. To do that, it was necessary for the committee to seek the views of the relevant Government departments as to whether validation and confirmation of a number of orders was appropriate. It is worthy of note that three particular orders made in the Subordinate Legislation (Confirmation and Validation) Bill are both validated and confirmed. The balance of the orders are simply confirmed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBut this validation is not the cure-all that it might seem to be, on its face. Clause 4 provides that the validations to prevent expiry do not cure invalidity. The actual wording of the provision is: \u201CIn the light of their purpose, the validations effected by sections 13, 15, and 16 do not\u2014(a) express an intention to give legislative force to the provisions of the enactments validated; or (b) apply to any reason for invalidating any of those enactments; or (c) override any presumption that would otherwise apply to any of those enactments.\u201D That particular clause is densely written and turgidly worded, but its effect is quite clear. Its effect is to preserve intact the ability of those who wish to challenge the validity of these orders to do so on administrative law grounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E In Part 2 the parliamentary counsel has identified a number of orders, and the legislation under which they were enacted, that are singled out for confirmation and validation. It is perhaps a somewhat unusual process, in that generally legislation endures until it is repealed, but in this bill we have an example where unless the legislation is confirmed, it will lapse. So it would be the case that the Biosecurity (Gypsy Moth Levy) Order and the Biosecurity (Varroa (South Island) Beekeeper Levy) Order would have no continued legal force, but for the passage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the course of the debate I have made a number of points, and I will highlight two of them. The first is to refer briefly to the inquiry by the Regulations Review Committee, which made a recommendation to try to draw into line with Australian practice and authority this tricky issue of what a regulation is. Because although these documents that we are confirming and validating are in most cases said not to be regulations, they in fact are. It is a constant search by the Regulations Review Committee, particularly in the exercise of its complaints jurisdiction, to determine whether a particular subordinate legislation is or is not a regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second point I have made is that at least in one case, relating to the varroa levy, there are these curious rights of conscientious objection. We generally think of rights of conscientious objection being exercised in a context that is substantially related to someone not being prepared to serve in war\u2014or, in any event, as a defence against compulsory conscription, which is no longer in place in this country. It seems to me most anomalous that there should be preserved in this legislation this conscientious objection provision, which is contained in clause 18. I am aware it is in other legislation, and the Minister responsible for this bill has suggested that the Commodity Levies Act has similar provisions. But why is there a conscientious objection right in respect of the Biosecurity (Varroa (South Island) Beekeeper Levy) Order 2005, yet there is not in respect of broadly comparable legislation related to the Biosecurity (Gypsy Moth) Levy) Order 2004? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is right to say that those two orders are made under different sections of the Biosecurity Act\u2014in the one case under section 137 and in the other under section 90. It is also right to say that one such statutory provision is concerned with the funding of services and another is concerned with the funding of strategies, but those points in themselves, I would contend, are not a sufficient reason for the inclusion of rights of conscientious objection in respect of one order and no such rights of conscientious objection in another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would like to say something very briefly about the varroa bee mite, picking up on wise and careful words used by Mr Tisch in the course of the Committee stage. Indeed, I had not appreciated until I stood in the Chamber today just what a fund of knowledge on this important legislation Mr Tisch had within his breast. It seems to be the case in varroa bee mite issues that, in the absence of treatment, an infested bee colony typically dies when the varroa population reaches a certain level. From the work that Mr Tisch has shown me, this threshold level appears to differ between locations and seasons. So we are looking at a range of issues in the context of varroa, such as the cumulative effects of decreased weight of adult bees, decreased lifespan of adult bees, virus infection issues relating to transmission by varroa feeding on pupae, and, as Mr Tisch has also noted in discussion with me, deformed wings and abdomens probably resulting from virus infestations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBut my having looked at those sorts of aspects, the reality is that pollination of many significant crop species in the horticulture, arable, and pastoral sectors is dependent on honey bees, and a reduction in pollination of horticultural and arable crops could result in decreases overall in crop quality. So it is clearly appropriate, as we look at that particular order, that there be provisions of this type where funding can be extracted from relevant groupings to deal with what is clearly a threat to agribusiness in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EFinally, I commend this bill to the House and record, on behalf of the Regulations Review Committee, the work of its members in ensuring this bill come back to the House in such fine form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f95bb0c006a74bb9b6ec6017617c5dc0\u0022\u003EVeterinarians Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f50adb4bd4d34ca2909524f00a124035\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5371cd1f40149838327bf84f2b86ec9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5371cd1f40149838327bf84f2b86ec9\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Veterinarians Bill be now read a second time. This bill was tabled in the House in December 2004. It had its first reading on 17 February 2005, after which it was referred to the Primary Production Committee for consideration. The committee received and considered 10 written submissions on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill replaces and improves upon the 1994 Veterinarians Act. The bill provides a more modern and flexible regulatory framework for veterinary practice in New Zealand, which makes the regulation of the veterinary profession comparable with that of other regulated professions, such as the medical profession. The bill takes account of the recent developments in veterinary training throughout the world, and enables a larger pool of overseas-trained veterinarians to seek registration in New Zealand, thereby easing the workload and stress levels faced by New Zealand veterinarians. The provisions in the bill confer powers on the Veterinary Council of New Zealand to provide the council with a much wider range of options to manage and deal with disciplinary and competency matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe key issues raised in the submissions seem to relate to five measures: firstly, to clarify the definition of the term \u201Cveterinarian\u201D; secondly, to broaden the coverage of the limited registration provision; thirdly, the independence of the complaints and disciplinary processes; fourthly, the right of appeal by veterinarians and by complainants; and, fifthly, the provisions relating to interim suspension of veterinarians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe term \u201Cveterinarian\u201D was defined in the bill as a person who meets the criteria for registration and is registered under the Act. Some submitters suggested that the definition should be amended so that people are entitled to call themselves a veterinarian only if they are registered and also hold a practising certificate. I support the committee\u2019s recommendation to amend that definition so that it refers to a person who is registered and has a current practising certificate. This amendment would assist the council in protecting the reputation of the veterinary brand, and it would also ensure that only those persons who have current skills and knowledge, and who are subject to the council\u2019s control, can use the term \u201Cveterinarian\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E The bill provided that persons who have suitable tertiary qualifications but do not meet the full registration requirements can be registered under the limited registration category for 12 months, plus one extension for a further 12 months. This provision was initially designed to provide stronger incentives to attract and retain overseas veterinary specialists in New Zealand, while still providing for sufficient incentives for such persons to seek full registration. It was intended to be used only in exceptional and unusual circumstances. A number of submitters suggested that the time limits on limited registration should be removed, thereby giving the council greater flexibility to determine an adequate time frame for issuing limited registration. They also considered that the time limit would be a disincentive to overseas veterinarians who specialise in particular fields to seek employment in New Zealand. Some stakeholders are strongly opposed to the proposal to remove the time limits. They consider that removing them could potentially create a new, permanent subcategory of veterinarians with limited registration, which could potentially compromise animal welfare standards, the integrity of our meat export certification systems, and our international reputation for producing safe food.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI support the committee\u2019s recommendation to remove the statutory time limits on the length of time a person may hold a limited registration, with some added safeguards. The first safeguard is a requirement for the Veterinary Council to develop scopes of practice for limited registration in consultation with relevant statutory agencies and key stakeholders. The second safeguard is the requirement for the Veterinary Council to take account of the effect of any proposed scopes of practice on New Zealand\u2019s economic interests, and to ensure that the proposed scopes are consistent with New Zealand\u2019s food, safety, biosecurity, and animal welfare regimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe complaints and disciplinary processes form a significant part of the bill. The bill sets out a robust investigative and disciplinary process. It provides the Veterinary Council with greater means of ensuring veterinarians practise to the highest possible standards. Examples of this include the ability of the council to set minimum standards of practice, and to impose conditions on a veterinarian\u2019s practising certificate. Some submitters considered that the existing complaints and disciplinary processes are weighted in favour of veterinarians, and suggested establishing an independent disciplinary complaints tribunal. I support the committee\u2019s recommendation not to make any substantive changes to the disciplinary process specified in the bill. The Primary Production Committee considered the complaints procedures very thoroughly, and I endorse its decisions. I agree with the committee\u2019s view that the structures and processes proposed in the bill for complaints investigation provide the council with an efficient mechanism to ensure that adequate standards are maintained. The council has a strong interest in ensuring high standards of veterinary practice and maintaining credibility for the veterinary profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill provides a veterinarian with the right to appeal to a District Court against any council disciplinary action relating to that veterinarian. Some submitters considered that the bill should provide the same rights to complainants. I support the committee\u2019s recommendation not to change the appeal rights provision in the bill. Disciplinary decisions made by the complaints assessment committee can affect a veterinarian\u2019s professional livelihood and reputation. Therefore, it is prudent to include in the bill a safeguard to ensure that the veterinarian has a relatively inexpensive means of appealing disciplinary decisions. The decisions of the complaints assessment committee do not have the same ramifications for complainants as they do for veterinarians themselves. Complainants have other avenues for redress, for example. They can challenge the complaints assessment committee process by judicial review in the High Court, or pursue the veterinarian concerned by judicial process, based on the law of contract. Complainants are in the same situation as persons who are unhappy with the work of a tradesman or with the work performed by persons in other professions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for the council to impose interim suspension on a veterinarian\u2019s ability to practise. This can be done on the recommendation of the complaints assessment committee after an investigation. The council may suspend the veterinarian until a hearing is completed or until the veterinarian has undergone a medical or competency assessment. Some submitters considered that in some circumstances it may be necessary to impose interim suspension before an investigation, in order to protect the public or the veterinarian from harm. I support, however, the committee\u2019s recommendation that interim suspension provisions for medical matters, matters of competence, and disciplinary matters be more clearly separated. I consider that it is inappropriate to impose interim suspension on a veterinarian prior to an investigation on disciplinary matters. A suspension is a serious action and can have a significant impact on the veterinarian\u2019s reputation and livelihood. However, in the case of medical-related matters, immediate action may sometimes be necessary in order to protect the welfare of the public and the veterinarian himself or herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill provides the veterinary profession with a more modern and flexible regulatory framework. The bill also contains provisions that will help to increase the confidence that our livestock-based industries, our export markets, the many thousands of owners of companion animals and pets, and the New Zealand public have in the veterinarians practising in New Zealand. I thank the members and the chairman of the Primary Production Committee for their consideration of the bill and for their report, which was tabled on 14 June 2005. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002240fa99ba0e2346468cb7d57a1ffc9958\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240fa99ba0e2346468cb7d57a1ffc9958\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will start by thanking the new Minister of Agriculture and the Leader of the House for finally allowing this legislation to be progressed. I know from briefing papers he received following the election, and from papers I received, that it has been of huge concern to the Veterinary Association and to the Veterinary Council of New Zealand that the work has now be completed by the select committee for exactly 6 months. It is interesting that on 14 June 2005 we reported this legislation back to the House. I know that representations were made to the Government by numerous people within this vital profession that the matter be progressed before the election. The Government saw fit to leave it on the Order Paper, but I do genuinely say thanks to them for finally bringing it to the House today so that we can pass it through all its stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis legislation is important. It affects a vital career in this country, and if it had been held over any longer, it would have meant that the registration processes that are vitally changed by this legislation would not have been able to be used by the profession until the registration year 2006-07. The work had been done by the select committee\u2014I will comment in detail on that shortly\u2014and there seemed to be no good reason why the matter should not have been progressed with more urgency by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAs the Minister has outlined, there are three major reasons for this legislation. There was a need for the qualifications of vets to be recognised when they qualified overseas. We needed to have a registration process that was modern and gave people travelling through New Zealand the ability to accept limited registration. We put a lot of effort into the third purpose of this legislation, which deals with the disciplinary powers and process of the Veterinary Council of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Primary Production Committee did a lot of work on this legislation, and as is typical of that committee, it was done without rancour and division as we worked through issues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a63a12b73d84cf4ae25f7665c6ead21\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Wonderful chairperson!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208fda07dcb914b55a776c4a74371a2a3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I could not possibly comment on that but I can certainly say that as a group of parliamentarians we worked through the issues as diligently as we could, and I feel confident that the legislation as presented back to the House now is substantially improved, and, again, I want to comment on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIf anybody looks at this legislation, they will see that there have been a large number of changes. We did not receive many submissions, as the Minister noted\u2014in fact only 10, and we heard only eight of those\u2014and the interesting thing about half of those submissions is that they were given to the select committee by people who tended to be distraught and distressed about the treatment their beloved animal had received from a particular vet. These people were still disputing the competence of the vet who had attended their animal. I know that Doug Woolerton certainly wants to talk about Bianca the parrot shortly, and I will leave him to do that. Their submissions, to be truthful, were largely irrelevant to the bill, in that it was not our job to relitigate processes that had been undertaken by the Veterinary Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EA matter on which those submitters did have every right to appear before the select committee\u2014and I assure those people that we diligently considered their particular submissions\u2014was whether we were setting up satisfactory processes, whereby the competency of the veterinary profession and of any particular vet was adequately checked and cross-checked. Numerous people within the select committee process made the comment to us that the process seemed to be one that was significantly about judging the competency of fellow vets. That, frankly, is inevitable. On the complaints assessment committee we have two vets and one layperson. The role of that committee is to hear the initial application of complaint and decide whether the matter warrants further investigation. If it does require further investigation, then the complaints assessment committee sends it to a judicial committee, which again is made up of one member of the Veterinary Council\u2014a vet appointed with a particular expertise and experience with regard to the complaint that is being made by the complainant\u2014one layperson, and a solicitor of not less than 7 years\u2019 experience in law, which is a change we made through the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I acknowledge that, without doubt, the process is dominated by the veterinary profession but I say to those people that there is no other way it can be done. One cannot have a process by which the complaint is judged by people who do not have the professional expertise to consider the legitimacy of the complaint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFinally, with regard to this matter I see no reason at all why the veterinarians involved in this particular judgment process would in any way make a judgment that lowered the standards of the veterinary profession throughout New Zealand. It simply would not be in their interests to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThere is little doubt that the original Act of 1994, which is not so very old when we think about it, did need to be modernised. I think that one of the reasons is that we significantly recognise the shortage of vets in this country. For example, we received a submission from Massey University, and the committee recognised, without doubt, that the qualification delivered from Massey University for veterinarians is internationally regarded. It is therefore not surprising that our graduates are then able to take that qualification, go overseas, and earn substantially more than they are able to earn if they remain in New Zealand. I speak from experience, because I have a niece who qualified through Massey University. She has spent most of her time, since qualifying, working out of Melbourne in Australia, where she is able to earn substantially more money than she can in New Zealand. That means that we have a looming shortage of veterinarians in New Zealand, and no more so than in rural New Zealand. That is something that should alarm every member of this House, because we are a country totally dependent on the value of agriculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Labour Government may finally wake up to the fact that agriculture is the backbone of the economy and that because we are so dependent on primary production, it is essential to have a process whereby we encourage vets to stay in New Zealand. If that is not sufficient to supply the numbers we need, then we must have a process by which we can utilise young vets who have qualified overseas and who have come to New Zealand, perhaps on work experience, and use them for 2 years; or perhaps a process whereby people with an overseas qualification of the right standard is recognised and allow those people to enter the profession in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn my closing time, I want to comment on the fact that anybody studying this legislation will note that there has been significant change via the select committee process. The question therefore needs to be asked about what consultation occurred out of the lead Minister\u2014who at that stage was the Hon Jim Sutton\u2014with the Veterinary Council and the Veterinary Association. Sadly, we were told that not enough consultation took place. Consequently, we had to take a step that was unusual in the New Zealand select committee process, but one that has been used very, very successfully in the Primary Production Committee, whereby the committee got the officials, the Veterinary Council, and the Veterinary Association to work closely with it through the deliberation process. I want to extend my thanks to Julie Haggie, chief executive officer of the Veterinary Council, to Ron Gibson, its chairperson, and to Murray Gibb, chief executive officer of the New Zealand Veterinary Association for the input and assistance they gave to the select committee so that we were able to deliver legislation that will now work. It seems to me absolutely pointless for a Government to be so disconnected from this profession that it advances legislation that straight away the industry is at loggerheads with. So I take the opportunity of thanking the members of my select committee. It is rather sad to look at the list of people who worked through it and to see that people like Janet Mackey, my then deputy chair, is no longer a member of Parliament. But she is a person to whom I pay tribute. She did an immense amount of work on that particular select committee. We have re-formed it with a new membership, and I can assure the House that we greatly miss the contribution of Doug Woolerton. It has almost become a serious select committee, but I am working on that and we will have some humour introduced to it over time, I can assure members. The National Party certainly supports the second reading of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcf2352c33fb4a6c933652542dc36096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcf2352c33fb4a6c933652542dc36096\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is a responsible Government bill. Although the Opposition would have us believe that this Government has no interest in the primary production sector, here we have a very, very responsible bill. It is a modern bill that provides for a very important profession in our country. Can I say that I know a little bit about vets. Members may not believe this, but in my many, varied careers in the past I once worked as a vet nurse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230792ab71cd74f428fa1c8ccc4543a8f\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: That explains everything!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e35192515294baa98f383413153a1a8\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I was looking after cats, I say to the member. It might explain how I deal with him. I appreciate the member\u2019s thanks for the Government bringing this bill to the House to go through all its stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8ffa30863642c289eb7ec7d0e92b47\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: You took your time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229089a5f0b32b46e7aa4d44ca01cf198c\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member should be grateful that we are doing it under urgency. I think it is wonderful. The vets out there will be very happy that it will be passed by Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis bill modernises legislation that was first enacted in 1994. It includes the qualification requirements for vets to be recognised overseas, it updates the registration processes and categories, and it deals with disciplinary powers. I congratulate members, both past and present, of the Primary Production Committee. I look forward to hearing from Mr Woolerton about the parrot, and I commend this bill to the House to go through all its stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb4cf755eb1c4d15a7a105266383fcc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb4cf755eb1c4d15a7a105266383fcc9\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to see that senior members still get the call in the House, and I thank you for calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker. I, too, would like to reflect on the concerns that the Veterinary Association and the Veterinary Council had\u2014concerns that they certainly expressed to members of the Primary Production Committee during its proceedings, and post-proceedings, during the election campaign\u2014that this bill pass through the House before Christmas. They saw a degree of urgency in the need to embark on new registration criteria in the new year rather than let them lapse for 18 months or 2 years after all the work that has been done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe are cutting it very fine, but people within the Veterinary Council and the Veterinary Association will be celebrating the passing of this legislation this evening. They want to use the registration changes it contains in the new year rather than waiting another 18 months or 2 years, because they see the changes and the conclusion of this bill as very satisfactory indeed. They had a large amount of input, and we thank the people who came before the select committee to contribute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E The bill was referred to the Primary Production Committee at the beginning of this year. The period for making submissions was just over a month. There were not too many submissions, but they were substantial. We heard eight out of 10 in person, and, as the Hon David Carter indicated to the House, we worked quite hard with both the council and the association during deliberations to make sure we got it right. We received advice from the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and we thank the ministry for that. I also acknowledge other members in the House who worked on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn terms of the substance of the legislation, it generally achieves three major things. First of all, the qualification requirements for veterinarians are put down clearly for all to see. The registration processes and categories for veterinarians are also stipulated in the legislation, and the disciplinary powers of the Veterinary Council of New Zealand are also outlined. There is much more clarity on the way through those registration, qualification, and disciplinary proceedings, and what has to take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EOne of the big issues that we had to work on quite hard was actually the definition of what a veterinarian was. We had to recommend that the definition of \u201Cveterinarian\u201D in clause 4 be amended to make sure that a veterinarian is, in fact, a registered person who holds a practising certificate. Why that is so important is that we need to protect the brand. The Hon David Carter already outlined the amount of respect that New Zealand - trained veterinarians have throughout the world. We also need to make sure that practising New Zealand veterinarians are respected throughout the world. The reason for this is no more than the needs of overseas countries when, often, they call on New Zealand expertise. We saw evidence of that in Britain last year when the foot-and-mouth scare hit. The British were burning stock, investigating stock, and isolating stock, and they called on New Zealand veterinarians to consult with and work with their staff. We need to protect the brand. There is no doubt now, under this legislation, that a veterinarian is a registered person who holds a current practising certificate, and that protects our good veterinarians in this country and abroad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn stating that, I have to point out that we had to recommend an amendment. I refer members to clause 30AA, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, which makes it clear that when there are complaints or disciplinary hearings the Veterinary Council can haul before it veterinarians who did not hold a current practising certificate. In other words, the fact that one\u2019s practising certificate had lapsed does not mean that a veterinarian cannot be held accountable for poor practice on the day when he or she was carrying the practising certificate and was registered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo if members turn to clause 30AA they will see that it states: \u201CIn this Part, specified person\u2014(a) means a veterinarian or a person who was a veterinarian at the time of the relevant conduct; and (b) unless the context otherwise requires, includes\u2014(i) a registered person: (ii) a registered person whose registration is suspended: (iii) a person who was registered at the time of the relevant conduct.\u201D That means that no veterinarians who find themselves the subject of an investigation in relation to poor conduct or poor practice can say that they are not accountable to the disciplinary procedures because they are no longer registered, or were not registered at the time, or do not currently hold a practising certificate. So we have tidied up that loophole in the definitions. I am pleased that that will actually give the council the ability to take disciplinary action against a person if he or she continues to practise after their practising certificate has lapsed. They should not be doing that, and they will be held accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe also had to deal with a second major issue, and that was to do with the limited registration criteria. We wanted to remove the time limits in relation to how long a person may hold limited registration. Currently, temporary registration is able to be gained for 3 months, and it can be extended to 6 months\u2014that is under the 1994 Act. The Minister wanted to change that so that limited registration may be applied for for 12 months with an extension of a further 12 months. The reason we are now removing the time constraints\u2014we would prefer, obviously to have temporary registration, and then vets coming under the full registration fairly quickly\u2014is that we need to provide incentives to attract and retain overseas veterinary specialists in New Zealand. Just like every other professional area in this country, we are seeing young New Zealanders train and then going overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand taxpayer is paying for the training of architects, engineers, veterinarians, as we see here, doctors, nurses, and professional engineers, such as myself\u2014I stay only to serve this country. All of them are trained in this country, and they are being driven overseas by high taxes, high compliance costs, and the degree of political correctness that hounds them daily in their professional lives\u2014all those sorts of things. They are being driven overseas by all the taxes, costs, and political correctness, and it is no different for veterinarians. We had to change this clause and allow for limited registration in order to provide the incentive for overseas-trained veterinarians to come to New Zealand and stay and replace the fleeing hordes of young 20 to 25-year-old New Zealanders who are running over to Australia and the UK to set up a better life, and we are planning for 2008 when they will return to New Zealand to go to the ticker-tape parade in Queen Street to welcome a National-led Government. So that is what they are doing. They are overseas and they will be there for 3 years saving some money for that ticker-tape parade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo we have open-ended the limited registration period instead of restricting it for 12 months to attract and retain these overseas veterinary specialists. There were some problems. We had concerns from the New Zealand Food Safety Authority, which saw this as possibly creating incentives for people to reduce costs by employing veterinarians with limited registration, and we acknowledge that. But what can we do? What can we do if young New Zealanders are being driven overseas by high taxes and political correctness and are being hounded by compliance costs every day in their professional lives? There is nothing else we can do. We are subject to that phenomenon\u2014we have seen for the last 6 years\u2014and all we can do is extend the limited registration provisions, and we have done so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe also looked at the rights of appeal of vets and complainants. My colleagues will expand on that particular issue, and I know that members are looking forward to hearing something of a dissertation on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddec2d5052614166a20c6e2e5823e5e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddec2d5052614166a20c6e2e5823e5e7\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Needless to say, New Zealand First will support this legislation. I want to commend the chairman of the Primary Production Committee, who did a great job. I am sorry that I am no longer on that select committee; my leader saw fit to put me on the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I am sure it was not for punishment reasons\u2014I could not imagine why he would want to punish me\u2014but for any sins he may have seen me commit he has put me on that committee, and one does the best one can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EAs Mr Heatley was talking about, I think it is absolutely sensible that this bill tops up the number of vets, and that we make up for the loss of those going overseas by bringing people in. Their degrees may be different but this bill allows them to have a year to align themselves with our degree, and we think that that is absolutely sensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI do not know whether people realise in what a high status vets are held in rural areas and the farming world; they are looked on much as the family doctor, in a way. Having been a farmer, I understand that. Farmers are often accused of being heartless\u2014I have never seen myself that way, to be honest\u2014but I have always looked on vets as the ones who will save a couple of thousand bucks by fixing up a cow, or whatever. They have a great status, and their expertise and education is respected in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EA lot of people do not understand that often veterinarians, particularly those on the edges of a rural and an urban community, in fact operate two practices. One is a large animal practice, and one is a small animal practice: urban dogs, cats, and that sort of thing. Needless to say, farmers being what they are, the large animal practice is the one that creates the most work, and certainly creates the most sweat, but it is the small animal practice that is the most profitable yet creates the most stress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThat was amply demonstrated in the submission process when we heard a submission regarding one Bianca Parker-Green. I would hate people to get the wrong idea, that I do not read my select committee papers diligently, word for word\u2014I would have to write a letter to the chairman and admit to that\u2014but on this occasion I have to say that I did not. When two ladies came in and described the treatment that Bianca Parker-Green had been subjected to by veterinarians, I must say that I was alarmed and concerned. That was because I thought they were talking about a family member\u2014which indeed they were, because to those two ladies Bianca Parker-Green was a family member. In fact, as I later found out, Bianca Parker-Green was a pet cockatoo. It was a revelation to me\u2014on coming from a rural environment\u2014that those people were so concerned. If the two ladies in question are listening, I do not want them to be offended in any way. I do not want them to think that we were taking matters lightly, because we were not. But it really was a revelation to me, because they were talking about their cockatoo in the way that many of us would talk about a family member\u2014because to them she was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI did not realise that fully until our own dearly beloved Labrador had to be put down by the vet who used to treat the animals on our farm. I rang him and said: \u201CMurray, our dog has reached the end of its days. I am not going to bring this dog to you, because I am a tender little soul and I just cannot do that.\u201D I could not take the dog for its last trip in the car, so Murray came to our house, gave the dog a lethal injection, and that was that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E It was not until that point that I realised what the situation was with Bianca, and that we in the select committee saw another side of the veterinary profession. We had to go through that submission with the two ladies concerned in a very, very careful manner, because they were very concerned that the Veterinary Council and what was the disciplinary tribunal had not done their job properly, and we were also concerned. The fact that I had not fully read every word in my papers, and the fact that I thought the cockatoo was a human family member, somewhat confused the situation. Indeed, I wondered what part of New Zealand they were coming from, in getting a vet to attend to a female family member. But when I found out it was a cockatoo, it all fell into place. I must say that the chairman handled the job with decorum and taste, and with the dignity required of him. He kept us all in order and on line. But I want to thank those two ladies who came to the select committee with their problem and with their story of Bianca. In fact, they changed my view of veterinary practice from one with a degree of heartlessness\u2014my being a dairy farmer\u2014and instilled in me a much higher level of empathy. For that, I am eternally grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u00220f9a9dbe1d334b85abb7f680ad05cec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f9a9dbe1d334b85abb7f680ad05cec2\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E What a pleasure it is to take a call in the second reading of the Veterinarians Bill. Can I say that the contribution from the member who just resumed his seat was most enlightening. I also thank the Primary Production Committee for the work it did. Obviously, the committee members got right into the bill. They came out with plastic gloves, put them on, and probed deeply into the matters to do with veterinarians bills\u2014treated the bill like a cow, really. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EIt is always timely to remind people of the key points of this bill. The bill repeals and replaces the Veterinarians Act 1994. The aim is to provide the veterinary profession with a more modern and flexible governance structure, comparable to other professions, such as the medical profession. The key changes from the Veterinarians Act are around qualification requirements and greater Veterinary Council powers when dealing with disciplinary and competency matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EThe Veterinary Council and the New Zealand Veterinary Association, which is the professional body that represents all veterinarians, support the bill\u2019s objectives, as it will assist the Veterinary Council in discharging its statutory obligations. With that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u00222797a820266c4af68fefdc7f858ba18c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222797a820266c4af68fefdc7f858ba18c\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I want to commend the Primary Production Committee for this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI have been subjected to members of the M\u0101ori Party opining the fact that one of them has had a cow of a day, and another has had a dog of a day. [Interruption] That was yesterday. They complained of being drenched with rain, herded through airports, drafted into queues, and shorn of any dignity as they were barked at while being herded into the waiting lines. All this was a result of inclement weather and a fogbound Wellington Airport. One of these members also claimed that as his plane descended into the Palmerston North Airport he thought for a moment that it would land either on the International Rugby Academy or on the veterinary school at Massey University. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EAs a former dairy farmer, I do have some hands-on knowledge and experience with the veterinary profession. I remember a time when I was quite intimately involved in the art of artificial insemination of a dairy herd and treating cows with mastitis or bloat. I may be described as a bit of a lay vet\u2014although I may have appeared to be confident, I was always apprehensive that my knowledge, which was gained through practical experience, might not necessarily be sufficient to ensure safe practice. I was therefore always appreciative of the skill and expertise of our local vet. He had a practical, common-sense manner, and he was determined from the outset that nothing but his best was good enough. It is a type of attitude that comes from the love of a job, the love of animals, and the love of the land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party recognises the need for a competent, professional veterinary workforce to service the needs of rural New Zealand and the livestock industry. We are acutely aware that rural New Zealand has the biggest shortage of vets, and we are aware as to what this will mean in terms of the protection and quality of stock. This is significant, as vets play a very important risk management role, which is vital for the agricultural and farming sector. A competent workforce is absolutely necessary in order to reduce the increased risk of disease outbreaks, including serious diseases like foot-and-mouth and TB in rural areas where vets are thinly spread. This is essential for the ongoing development of our primary industries. We also know that the shortage of qualified vets has posed a real problem for the agricultural sector, with its heavy reliance on animal health and welfare, and the bill helps to solve those acute shortages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party is supportive of the changes proposed to regulate practising veterinarians to improve the registration process and categories in order to attract and retain veterinary surgeons. We also know that initiatives taken in the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill, which was discussed earlier today, will contribute to retaining our specialist students onshore. When vet students complete their studies, the accumulated debt for each student is about $50,000, and that debt has been a major driver for many of them to move offshore. That has contributed to the current extreme shortage of rural vets in New Zealand. We are also supportive of the move to replace the 5-year vet science degree with a 4-year course. This is a significant move that will help to solve the acute shortages within the sector without impacting negatively on vets\u2019 professionalism and skills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are supportive of the moves to reform the regulation of the profession of veterinarians. We are pleased with the changes that have come through the Primary Production Committee, and we commend the work that has been done to offer limited and provisional registration, and also to seek professional standards and monitor performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EDuring the process of considering the bill, a number of anecdotes were passed on from experts in the field\u2014the literal field as well as the professional field. The bill sets in place certain academic and English language requirements in order for people to be registered by the council as a veterinarian. I did not realise until that moment that the only language animals understand is English. Given the requirement in the bill, I can only assume that English is the language of the animal world. A registered person who holds a current practising certificate will have received quite specific competency testing in areas such as communications skills. We have heard horror stories of how some farmers have gone to vets asking for their animal to be fixed\u2014meaning to have their general health improved, their illness treated, or their wound healed\u2014and I ask members to imagine their horror when they realise that the professional has interpreted \u201Cfixed\u201D as meaning that the animal should be castrated or put down. It is a bit late, then, to ask to see the registration papers of the offending vet. That is obviously an area where the disciplinary powers of the Veterinary Council of New Zealand will come into their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are aware that, currently, the situation in heartland New Zealand is less than positive for situations of abuse or neglect in respect of animal welfare. We are aware that even when cases of unprofessional conduct or severe neglect have been taken to the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, it has not had the teeth to take effective action against recalcitrant vets. The vet practices that we have spoken with told us about clients that have come from other vet practices that are dodgy, that have overcharged the clients, and whose practices have been inferior. In extreme cases, severe negligence with regard to animals, careless practices, or inappropriate use of drugs should have resulted in criminal prosecutions, but the lack of ability of the council to enforce the law has resulted in both frustration amongst the profession and the concern that the profession is being brought into disrepute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EOur informants welcome the bill, particularly the aspect that relates to the increased powers of the council to discipline appropriately. The bill makes it quite clear that the council\u2019s primary function is to regulate practising veterinarians, to deal extensively with discipline and competency issues, to be able to suspend and withdraw practising certificates, and to impose conditions on practising certificates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that our informants also raised, however, is the composition of the council itself. The bill continues the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, which was established under the 1994 Act, with broadly the same powers and membership. The membership consists of three vets who are selected by veterinarians, two lay persons and one veterinarian who are appointed by the Minister, and the person who is responsible for the veterinary science academic programme at Massey University. It was felt that because of the size of the vet community, a quasi-judicial appointment would have given greater balance, thus freeing the council from accusations of subjective decision-making. It was also suggested that lay persons should possess significant interest in, or understanding or experience of, a primary sector, and that the vets appointed should have a standing and reputation within the veterinary profession. The M\u0101ori Party is pleased to support a bill that will put in place moves to ensure that the veterinarian practice continues to demonstrate high standards. Ultimately, this will be in the interests of the animals of our country, and will ensure that the public can have confidence in the profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2e8c9af24bd40aab663bf079c0cc134\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2e8c9af24bd40aab663bf079c0cc134\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E The Veterinarians Bill is very important legislation, and it ties in with other professions that we looked at in the last Parliament, such as architects and engineers. The bill safeguards the public through a way of registration, which we believe is important. The bill repeals the Veterinarians Act 1994, and, as I have mentioned, the key provisions in the commentary relate to qualification requirements. It is always good to set a benchmark so whoever is dealing with a profession knows specifically what the qualification, background, and experience is of someone who holds that qualification, and that he or she is registered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo that is the safeguard that the public would expect of somebody in the veterinarian profession. It also gives disciplinary powers to the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, so there has to be a body that will oversee how its members should behave. We also see that the definition of veterinarian has been amended so that a veterinarian must be a registered person who holds a current practising certificate. That applies to a number of professions. In my earlier days I was a registered valuer, and I required a registered valuing certificate that would be renewed annually. Otherwise, I was not able to call myself a registered valuer; I could call myself a valuer, but I could not call myself a registered valuer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo that is the safeguard that is important for members of a society as a whole who want to deal with the profession, and who want to know that whomever they deal with meets certain minimum and mandatory qualifications and experience requirements. The same would apply to a chartered accountant, as opposed to an accountant. So we have chartered accountants. We also see that in areas where there has been some concern, like in the motor vehicle industry. It is so easy to deal with a motor vehicle dealer, and to be able to buy a vehicle, but there are no safeguards. There are no safeguards when one buys a vehicle, but dealing with a licensed motor vehicle dealer gives the protection that one would expect. This Veterinarians Bill refers to qualification requirements, and brings into place an annual registration format so that those who deal with vets are protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThere is also an amendment regarding the purpose of complaints, disciplinary hearings, and medical and competence assessments. The committee recommended that \u201Ca specified person includes both a veterinarian as defined in clause 4, and any person whose conduct has led to a complaint for an event when the person was registered \u2026\u201D. So the council has the ability to take disciplinary action against a person if his or her practising certificate has lapsed but the person continues to practice. Once again, I come back to that very important point about giving protection and meeting those minimum standards that are so crucial to give credence to the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn the area that I represent, Piako, vets are a very important part of our community. This profession is having great difficulty in attracting the number of vets required. We have a number of farmers in the House. Eric Roy, David Bennett, and David Carter, who are in the Chamber at the moment, are farmers in their own right who understand the importance of having access to a veterinarian. The profession is having trouble attracting veterinarians. There was a big recruitment drive in the Matamata area, where I live, and we now have a number of vets from overseas, especially South Africa. We also have a vet from the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe equine industry is another very important area where the demand for specialist vets has become very, very important. As I said in the first reading debate back in February this year, in Matamata a hospital has been established specifically for horses. There is a demand for specialised services that those engaged in the equine industry are able to use in their profession in order to add value to the racing industry, in particular. So practising vets who are out in the regions\u2014in rural and heartland New Zealand\u2014are very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI also identify the issue of inspections and freezing works. It is veterinarians who sign off on carcasses that are ready for export. Without having those qualified people to meet those very high standards and protect the very important export earnings that we get from the rural sector, we would be missing out. The Hon David Carter mentioned in his address just a moment ago the importance of the primary industry in New Zealand, and how it is still New Zealand\u2019s No. 1 export earner. If we look at vets in that light, we see how important they are to our food processing industries. This bill maintains and protects an asset, and will make sure that our reputation in the marketplace will not be disadvantaged because we do not have specialist vets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe also see a huge demand now for those in small-animal practice. I was with some people at the weekend whose daughter is off to Massey, specifically to study veterinary science. It is a very, very difficult course to get into. However, she is committed. I asked her what area of practice she would be interested in moving into, once she graduates. The response did not surprise me, when I thought it through at the end of the day. She is particularly interested in dealing with small animals such as cats and dogs. There is a huge and growing demand for those vets, but people who specialise in those areas are not necessarily coming back to rural areas, because there is such a demand for them in urban areas. We see then that the profession has been under pressure to attract and hold vets and to meet the standards that are so important to very important industries. It is a very, very important profession. Those in the veterinary field have told me on numerous occasions how difficult it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOur graduates who come out of the vet school have a proud reputation. Members may recall that many years ago we did not have a vet school; if one wanted to be a vet, one had to go over to Werribee, just outside Melbourne, to study. Our proud reputation is well recognised around the world, and vets can attract very good positions wherever they go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENational is supporting this legislation. We did so in the first reading and at the select committee, and do so now. Other issues have come up. My colleague Phil Heatley articulated very well some of the major issues that came out of the Primary Production Committee, but I will just highlight, in my last remaining minutes, an area that he did not mention, the rights of appeal. There was a suggestion by submitters that there should be a change to clause 56, \u201CRight of appeal\u201D. The select committee decided that that was not necessary, because veterinarians have that right anyway. They can appeal to a District Court. That is the safeguard to ensure that veterinarians have a relatively inexpensive means of appealing a council\u2019s decision. That is fair; that is about equity; that is about one\u2019s day in court. Vets actually have that protection, and the select committee was happy to support that without having to change the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAnother issue relates to complainants being able to challenge the complaints assessment committee process by judicial review in the High Court or to pursue the veterinarian concerned using the law of contract or tort. Those are the protections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENational is very happy to support this legislation. It is important for New Zealand, as an exporting country, and for those of us who represent rural constituencies that the veterinary practice is held in very high esteem. Veterinarians are a credit; they make a huge contribution, and we want to give them all the support we can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259045e874bc742a4a71173dadf67feeb\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5dc9185914a47bdbb02770976c4c77f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002288e0cc3da6d34df387d58254798d62f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288e0cc3da6d34df387d58254798d62f2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I refer the Minister in the chair, the Hon Jim Anderton, to clause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D and to the definition of \u201CMinister\u201D: \u201CMinister means the Minister of the Crown who, under the authority of a warrant or with the authority of the Prime Minister, is for the time being responsible for the administration of this Act\u201D. I want the new Minister of Agriculture, the Hon Jim Sutton, to take the opportunity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202074e6568184682aefb4e0ebc21118b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Jim Anderton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022220fb74cc58c48ccaf75b104d6d9f546\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, it was a slip. Yes, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f4754e9950e47b9983de56e718eda84\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: An excusable slip.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2838ddb24d44b00ae369771c877dfc0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, an excusable slip. I ask the new Minister, the Hon Jim Anderton, whether in fact he has had a discussion with the Prime Minister, and whether in fact he has been given the responsibility for the administration of this Act, because the Minister\u2019s role in the Act is quite important. I note that the provision relating to the composition of the council, which we will discuss later on, requires the Minister to appoint, by notice in the Gazette, two lay persons and one veterinarian. Therefore, I think it is important that the Committee understands who the Minister is, because this particular legislation has had a somewhat chequered career in that it was originally under the control of the previous Minister of Agriculture, the Hon Jim Sutton. Then, by the time it came before the House, it was shepherded through its initial stages by, and still remains in the name of, the Hon Damien O\u0027Connor, who I note has not taken part in this debate so far. Therefore, I think the Committee deserves to know whether the Minister has been specifically given the role of being responsible for the administration of this Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to the new Minister of Agriculture, the Hon Jim Anderton\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8a0ba3ac8f64cbbb950571583a47622\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: A good man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b60e5da00e47e3ab7e8d0f40dfc0e6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Clayton Cosgrove interjects and says that he is a good man. I can speak on behalf of the farmers of New Zealand and say that at this stage they are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I acknowledge that we were long overdue for a new Minister of Agriculture, in that his predecessor, the Hon Jim Sutton, had clearly lost interest in the portfolio. I say to the new Minister, in response to the interjection from Clayton Cosgrove, that farmers will give him the benefit of the doubt, but he will have to do better than he has done so far. He has had two issues of relevance to agriculture. Obviously, the first was the apple issue, on which we finally have a piece of paper and a report from the Australians, but we have a long way to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec1ccf70dd3541849bd10f407ee87463\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: A piece of paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8a14f2efa7434b9e3253058f7cc442\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is about a 500-page piece of paper; I accept that. The second issue, of course, and one that is worrying farmers, particularly those in Gisborne, is the totally zero response from the Government to those guys who have been devastated by two significant floods, one after another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I tell the Minister that we require an answer to the particular question I have raised: has he been specifically given, at this stage and with the authority of Helen Clark, Prime Minister, responsibility for the administration of this very vital act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe6e876b7abe4fdcba8389275cfe02f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe6e876b7abe4fdcba8389275cfe02f5\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to, obviously, Part 1, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D\u2014the part we are debating\u2014and, in particular, to clause 3, the purpose clause. I point out something that I think will be of interest to members\u2014that originally clause 3, as it was presented to the Primary Production Committee, stated that the purpose was to \u201Cestablish a registration system for veterinarians:\u201D. The purpose was also to \u201Cestablish a certification system\u201D for veterinarians, to \u201Cestablish a complaints and disciplinary process for veterinarians:\u201D, to \u201Cestablish medical and competence assessment processes for veterinarians:\u201D, and to \u201Ccontinue the Veterinary Council of New Zealand\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EBut we had to change that. The first job of the select committee was to change the purpose of that legislation. The purpose of this Parliament is not to establish certification systems, complaints and disciplinary processes, veterinary councils, or any manner of committees; the purpose of this Act is to protect the public interest. All those other things\u2014establishing a certification system, establishing a complaints and disciplinary process, and establishing medical and competence assessment processes\u2014are means to an end. The end itself, as under the new, unanimous clause, is to protect the public interest. That is why our attitude on this side of the Chamber is different, because we know that committees and processes are simply means to an end, as opposed to the attitude of those on that side of the Chamber, who believe that committees, processes, and endless meetings are ends in themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn fact, we are here to protect the public interest, so I will read the new purpose clause for the benefit of the Committee and the Minister in the chair, the Hon Jim Anderton: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to protect the public interest by aiming to ensure that veterinarians are competent to practise;\u201D. That is what this bill is all about. It just sets up the processes, committees, registration systems, and disciplinary procedures to make sure that vets in this country who service farmers and families with small animals are competent to practise. I emphasise that we are not setting up committees, councils, and disciplinary procedures to give Labour Party members jobs on boards, credit card expenses, and flights to Wellington once a month\u2014that is not why we are setting up those committees\u2014the only reason we are setting them up is to ensure that veterinarians are competent to practise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI underline that to members of the Committee, because it is very important. We had to throw away and push off the table all those provisions when we received this bill at the select committee. We had to start again and say that the end result is competent veterinarians, which is in the public interest. Whereas the Labour Government, of course, drafted a bill that just sets up committees, laws, regulations, and all sorts of loopholes for everyone else in this country to jump through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI move on to clause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D. I will be asking for a second 5-minute speech on this, because there is something I do want to talk about\u2014the issue of the certificate of registration. Members will recall that I talked before about temporary registration for those veterinarians coming from overseas and wanting to practise in New Zealand for a short time, and about the desire of New Zealand to harness their skills for an extended time\u2014not for the 3 months in the current Act, plus 3 months for good behaviour, but for 12 months, as in the original bill. If we could just have South African veterinarians who were enthusiastic come to New Zealand for 12 months! If we could just attract them here for 12 months, perhaps they would stay a further 12 months, and perhaps they would look for residency and then citizenship so that they could contribute to our country. That was the thought that went through our minds, so we changed those clauses, which we will talk about in the debate on Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMembers will notice that in Part 1 of the original bill there was no definition of \u201Ccertification of registration\u201D, but the select committee has put that in there, because the issue around the certification of registration is very, very important. Why? Because there are two types of registration. The first is the limited registration that people coming from overseas, whom we want to attract to this country, will undergo for a time. Originally, limited registration applied for 3 months plus another 3 months, but the Minister proposed to change that to 12 months plus 12 months. The select committee removed the time frames altogether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThen there is the provisional registration definition. Provisional registration is different from limited registration in that it applies to New Zealanders who leave university and want to apply to be registered. If that is the first time those people have wanted to be registered, and they are not visitors from overseas, they will get a provisional registration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E I ask the Minister why he did not actually state in the definitions that limited registration was for those people who were coming to New Zealand temporarily, and that provisional registration was for New Zealanders who wanted to be registered for the first time. That would have been so much easier. I see the scales coming off the eyes of members of this Committee and the sudden penny-drop all over the faces of my colleagues who have suddenly realised what the Minister meant. Phil Heatley has a hole in one, he has nailed it! What I am trying to say is that limited registration is for those foreign people coming to New Zealand who want to practise for a short time\u2014and, hopefully, continue to practise\u2014whereas provisional registration is for those young Kiwis who have studied here and who are being registered for the first time. I would have thought that perhaps we could have had that distinction set out in the clauses, which would have made it much easier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to raise something for members who have been looking at the commentary on the bill. I notice that when the commentary deals with the registration issue, it refers to temporary registration. I think, in retrospect, that was actually an error on the select committee\u2019s part when it drafted the commentary, because within the new legislation there is no reference at all to temporary registration. Limited registration is the proper term; temporary registration is not mentioned in the context of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI think members will become confused when they realise that there is limited registration by statute and provisional registration by statute, but no temporary registration. Temporary registration is mentioned in the commentary. Everyone is searching for it amongst the clauses in the legislation, but they cannot find it. They are panicking; they are running for the officials. Well, I can tell members now to calm down, sit down, and take a deep breath, because we made an error. We have referred to temporary registration, but there is no such thing. We should not have taken Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s advice during that 5 minutes when he woke up in the select committee and said that we should call it \u201Ctemporary registration\u201D because people would understand what it meant. We should not have taken his advice, but we did out of sympathy. I regret doing that. We should have just continued with the term \u201Climited registration\u201D, which we actually use within the clauses of the bill, and we would not have the confusion we see in the Committee today. I am glad I have been able to put members right on that particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI also point out the definitions around the term \u201Cveterinarian\u201D. People might think that the definition of \u201Cveterinarian\u201D in a veterinarians bill is not significant, but I would argue it is. I think the definition of \u201Cveterinarian\u201D in a veterinarians bill is very significant, indeed. Members can see that we had to strike out the original definition inserted by Jim Anderton of what a veterinarian was, and redefine that, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00228a633a4ebb48489ba3882fb7d3b1734a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a633a4ebb48489ba3882fb7d3b1734a\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very glad to follow my fellow colleague\u2019s contribution, and I think that if anybody needs any evidence about how passionate the National Party team is about agricultural issues and issues relating to veterinarians, they need only source the Hansard of my colleague Phil Heatley, who filled in a full 10 minutes on Part 1 of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI did not have the luxury of being on the Primary Production Committee when this bill was reviewed, so I apologise because some of the questions that I have about this bill might be rather simple compared with those of some of my more learned colleagues who have spoken previously. One of my questions is a simple question for the Minister: why does this bill repeal the Veterinarians Act 1994? My reading of the bill leads me to conclude that many of the changes we are talking about today could have been dealt with by way of amendment to the 1994 Act, as opposed to repealing that Act and rewriting the whole legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EMy second concern relates to the amount of redrafting that we see just in Part 1. It seems that the first draft was totally inadequate, and I am sure the Primary Production Committee worked very hard to improve the bill, because we need only look at Part 1 to see that, basically, it has been rewritten in its entirety. When huge chunks have been struck out and new clauses have been put into the bill, it makes me wonder whether the work was done in the first instance to draft this bill properly prior to its going to the Primary Production Committee. It is clear from some of the changes that have been made that Part 1 was totally inadequate, because it has been rewritten almost in its entirety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EMy next question relates to the purpose of the bill, which is written down as being to protect the public interest by aiming to ensure that veterinarians are competent to practise. I understand that, and I understand that we need to have regulation for a wide range of professions in this country, but I ask what mischief was this bill trying to solve. I have been in Parliament since 1999 and I have to say that I have not had one complaint from a constituent about a veterinarian. It is clear to me that there has not really been a groundswell of concern about the sector, albeit it is a very important one. Veterinarians play a role almost like a rural general practitioner in many of our communities in the South Island, but I have not seen any huge concerns raised about the sector. So I go back to my initial point of asking why we could not have dealt with some of these changes just by way of amendment, as opposed to rewriting the entire bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EAlthough there is not a huge concern about Kiwi vets who have been trained in New Zealand universities, which are easy for us to oversee to ensure that vets reach a certain standard, I wonder whether these changes are basically designed to ensure that we have greater consistency and oversight of some overseas vets who come into the country\u2014of which there are very many. I wonder whether this bill is designed just to try to incorporate some of the concerns that people have had about people coming from overseas who may not have qualifications that are easily likened to New Zealand qualifications. Perhaps that is the case, and I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s view on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI come back to the main point that I suppose most members of the Committee agree on, which is that most professions need some kind of overarching legislation that allows them to self-regulate as much as possible to be able to deal with complaints and issues of registration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002266ca4409d74c46599e5a6ca043e9f71c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ca4409d74c46599e5a6ca043e9f71c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00222df86e99e68048c9a1e6fb9544cc9316\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222df86e99e68048c9a1e6fb9544cc9316\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to make a contribution on the Veterinarians Bill, for all sorts of reasons. It replaces the Veterinarians Act 1994, and I seem to recall that the young member of Parliament chairing the Primary Production Committee that dealt with that bill in 1994 was me. Interestingly, I note that although the Act is called the Veterinarians Act 2004, the bill I dealt with in the select committee in 1994 had lain around for 8 years. So it is time we dealt with this legislation again, obviously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI pick up the point that Katherine Rich raised. I really want to know what mischief we are correcting, given that such a precise and accurate endeavour was made in 1994. I just look at the members of the committee and see that there has been about a 33 percent attrition rate of the members who were there\u2014they did not return\u2014and very few of those members are still on the Primary Production Committee. So it was a very stressful occurrence for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIt is important that we get the bill right. Other members have stressed the importance of having the appropriate mechanisms surrounding veterinary practice in New Zealand. We need to consider a heap of issues. The bill, in its purpose and interpretation provisions in Part 1, sets out, in broad terms, to deal with some of those issues. There is the issue of animal welfare. We need to take a very responsible attitude to the way in which we treat and deal with our animals. We should ensure that we have a register of vets, that we require certain standards, that we have a process of registration, and that there is a process of review should anything inappropriate occur. The purpose and interpretation provisions set out some of those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIt is also very important from a consumer point of view that the products from our primary industry are known and trusted, and that there is a very clear perception that New Zealand is on top of the issues of veterinary care, animal welfare, veterinary science, and all of those things, to give assurance that we have in place the very best practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich said, when she was talking about this mischief thing, that she had not had any complaints. I have had one complaint. I have read the bill briefly, and it is not contained in there. It is a matter that I will take to the PC eradicator. I say to the Minister that the following story did occur, and I am not fabricating it. About a month ago a lady came to my office. The lady\u2019s name is Mrs Court, and she loves cats. She came into my office and said that her cat had been sick. She took it to the vet. The vet gave it an ECG and said that the cat needed to stay for a night or two for medication. So the vet started treating the cat. After 3 days, Mrs Court was a little concerned for its welfare, so she rang the veterinary practice and asked how the cat was. The person who responded on the telephone said: \u201CI am sorry, madam, under privacy laws I cannot respond.\u201D I say to the Minister that that is absolutely true. I am not sure whether the person was being overzealous, but it says something about where our levels of political correctness have got to. I am not sure whether she expected the cat to lay a complaint if its owner actually received a report that was not accurate, or that was accurate and was that the cat was swinging the lead\u2014I am not sure of the issues that surrounded that response. But, as true as I stand here, that story occurred in Invercargill. I have not found out whether Mrs Court\u2019s cat is better, is well, or what the story is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that I would hope that in the new legislation we are enacting today we take a sensible approach to all matters veterinary. There are some issues surrounding veterinary practice that the bill, in its purposes and interpretation provisions, does not look at, and I do not know whether it can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u00223a1c98c453cc4c51852ff5ff511884e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a1c98c453cc4c51852ff5ff511884e6\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the bill and to speak about the preliminary provisions. The purpose of this legislation is to protect a number of different interests: those of the public, and also those of rural and provincial New Zealand. I understand that this legislation came to the House under the name of the previous Minister of Agriculture\u2014and previous member for Aoraki, as well\u2014the Hon Jim Sutton, and that it came in a particularly interesting manner. What happened after that was that it went to the Primary Production Committee. Thank goodness that the members of the select committee, which was ably chaired by the Hon David Carter, did an enormous amount of work\u2014[Interruption] Very good timing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI ask members to look at the preliminary provisions, where they will see the start of a theme, a theme where we see many new paragraphs and many struck out paragraphs. That theme continues throughout all the parts of the bill, so no doubt I will refer to it again later. The vets were very interested in this bill. When I talked to my local vets they said they thanked goodness that this bill was coming before the House under urgency, because they really needed to see that happen before Christmas. But what happened? When the previous Minister of Agriculture brought this bill before the House, something did not happen: consultation with the sector. Because of that, there was such a mess for the select committee to sort out that we were left with this document full of changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EWhy is it so important that the vets have these changes? They tell me that they have large problems in recruiting vets for rural practice in New Zealand. We have heard from other members here today that it is common for women, in particular, who have trained as vets to go into urban practice. That is not really surprising. Urban practices deal with smaller animals, and we also understand from others\u2019 assertions that it is a more profitable type of practice. But that does not change the fact that New Zealand is so dependent upon primary production that we need to have plenty of rural vets\u2014so much so that we know that one of the 10 submitters on the bill, Massey University, came before the select committee because it was so interested in making sure there are the essential numbers of vets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EOur primary production industry needs rural vets, and therefore we have before the Committee this legislation, which may well make it easier for vets to be recruited from overseas for rural New Zealand. The provisions within this amendment allow for those sorts of things to be sorted out and for the establishment of a limited registration system\u2014a system that we will see later now provides a registration period long enough to entice overseas vets to stay in New Zealand long enough to get their heads around what it is to practise in New Zealand. Vets certainly do not mind this legislation; they are very much in support of it. They welcome it and they certainly welcome seeing it come before Parliament before Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI thank the Committee and continue to support the preliminary provisions in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcc7e36cae1f4c418199a3c932d1b039\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcc7e36cae1f4c418199a3c932d1b039\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e25d99ab6fb4fc6baa5bee327ea5d7c\u0022\u003EPart 2  Registration and practising certificates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002200e9d2b179c14ac9bdf6b09f2d9d0e74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200e9d2b179c14ac9bdf6b09f2d9d0e74\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E The principal area that I have as a matter of concern is clause 6, \u201CEntitlement to registration\u201D. Logically, a lot of it makes sense. The person must pay a prescribed fee. I am not sure how that fee is set and what it is for, but OK, there has to be membership of some recognised organisation. The person must have a recognised veterinary science degree or a diploma from a recognised institution. That all makes sense. We are, after all, dealing with matters that relate to animal health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIn many respects a veterinarian has a more difficult role than that of a doctor. When someone goes to the doctor, he or she can say: \u201CI\u2019ve got a pain. It hurts me here. It throbs. My temperature is up.\u201D, or whatever. But when we take an animal to a vet, the animal does not have a dialogue with the vet. So in many ways the vet has to be able to interpret signs of ill health in a much more difficult arena than doctors do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce46873ca2544785b2b1d8f386aad55a\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Doctors don\u2019t make house calls. Vets do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d2aeeaee79b41af9ea1dbada67c5a0b\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: That is another point. Vets are required to make house calls today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe point I wish to make is that I really disagree quite strongly with clause 6(1)(b), which states: \u201C(b) a veterinary science degree or diploma of not less than 4 years of study and 1 or more of the following: \u2026\u201D. The point that I would like the Minister to respond to is why we have a designated time that it takes to learn. The principle should be based on what qualifications one has, what area of learning one has, and what exams one has passed, not on how long it took to get those qualifications. To me, it seems an absolute nonsense that we are prescribing\u2014no matter what people\u2019s qualifications are\u2014that they have to have studied for 4 years. Ultimately, the qualification is important, not how long people were at university for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI well recall some debates in the House 3 or 5 years ago where we had similar arguments relating to physiotherapy students and physiotherapy legislation. At that time it seemed totally improper to me that a time limit was prescribed by those who were managing and running physiotherapy schools. They said that it had to be a 4-year course, from memory. Again they were just extending out the whole process, which created more job opportunities and a whole range of things surrounding that. But the issue was quite clear: it was whether those people were qualified to practise, not a matter of how long it had taken them to get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EFurther on, in clause 6(1)(b)(iii), there are some areas that I would like the Minister to comment on, as well, relating to a pass and assessment programme approved by the council. We are designating a responsibility, without instruction, to the council for it to come up with something that could be quite subjective. Again, having just read another provision where the important thing is how long someone took to study, I would like to know with a little more preciseness what sorts of things the council might require and to have this provision removed from the subjective arena. I would like an explanation from the Minister as to why that time requirement is pre-eminent and why there is no designation about what level degrees have to be at. I see the officials are now instructing the Minister, so I look forward to a contribution on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ELet us be quite clear: it is important that we have the best possible veterinarians that we can get. For that purpose we need to have the most appropriate people taking veterinary courses, which must have the best syllabus, the best curriculum, and the best practices. Those things are absolutely essential, but to require a designated time seems quite confusing to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6ff946865184e17b00766beb6ab5743\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6ff946865184e17b00766beb6ab5743\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to outline to members and to those who are listening the importance of clause 9, \u201CDisqualification from registration\u201D. I think that provision should be recorded in Hansard and not just set out in the bill, where many of us will not ever read it again and many of the public will never read it. There are subclauses covering disqualification from registration, and because the Veterinary Council can take that very significant step, with quite life-changing, far-reaching consequences for some vets, I would like to read out parts of the clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EClause 9 states that a person is not entitled to be registered as a veterinarian if he or she has been convicted by any court in New Zealand or elsewhere, within the past 7 years, of any offence punishable by imprisonment for a term of 3 months or longer. I say to current and future veterinarians that they should be warned. If they have had a conviction within the last 7 years that is punishable by imprisonment for a term of 3 months or longer, they can be deregistered or not registered at all. That will not automatically apply; there is an \u201Cand\u201D provision. Not only does the person have to have been convicted but the council has to be satisfied, having regard to all the circumstances, including the time that has elapsed since the conviction, that the offence reflects adversely on the person\u2019s fitness to practise as a veterinarian. In other words, people can have a conviction and still be registered if it is deemed that the conviction will not in any way reflect adversely on their fitness to practise as a veterinarian. Even so, I say vets should be warned. They should avoid getting a conviction, not just because of the jail term but because it can affect their career in ways they may not have envisaged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EClause 9 also provides that a person is not entitled to be registered if the council is satisfied that registration of the person would be inappropriate because, in another country, he or she is the subject of professional disciplinary proceedings. People should not assume they can come from another country where they practised as a vet and be registered in New Zealand, if they have been a ratbag back home. If vets are the subject of professional disciplinary proceedings overseas, they should not expect to be registered in New Zealand. The clause also provides that they are not entitled to be registered if they are under investigation, or have been struck off the relevant overseas register of veterinarians, or have been otherwise disciplined by a veterinary professional organisation. They should take note of that. Lastly, if the council is satisfied that a person cannot practise satisfactorily as a veterinarian because of a mental or physical condition, the council can refuse to register that person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo if people have faced convictions in this country or overseas, or have been disciplined overseas, or if it is determined that they cannot satisfactorily practise as a veterinarian because of a mental or physical condition, they may not be registered in this country. They should take that as a warning. I warn them upfront of that now, if they are listening to this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI also draw attention to clause 13, \u201CScopes of practice for limited registration\u201D. Members may remember that I brought up the issue of people who were temporarily in New Zealand. People who come to New Zealand for a short time from South Africa, Europe, or the United States to practise as vets\u2014and it used to be for just 3 months, but could be extended for a further 3 months\u2014come under the term \u201Climited registration\u201D. The Primary Production Committee had to strike out the original clause 13, which extended that to 12 months. We wanted to talk about the scopes of practice for limited registration, because it is important that the people who come from overseas, whether they serve in general veterinary practice in New Zealand or are specialists, are useful to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI have already noted that it is important that vets have not been convicted by any court in their own country. It is important that those visitors who want to practise as vets in this country are not under any professional disciplinary proceedings or under investigation overseas, but also it is important that they can contribute to the professionalism in this country when they practise here. In my second reading speech I pointed out to members that the Minister had extended the time frame within which an overseas-qualified vet could work in New Zealand. We removed the time frames altogether. We removed the roll-over period, which was 3 months plus 3 months, and then 12 months plus 12 months. In other words, an overseas vet could practise in New Zealand under limited registration for a maximum of 2 years, and now there is no limit. I raise the issue that the reason we did that is that we need overseas vets. We need good South African and European vets to practise in New Zealand. We need good vets from Asia, the United States, and elsewhere in the world to practise in New Zealand, because the vets we train here are fleeing the country. They are fleeing the taxes, the compliances costs, and the political correctness. They are going overseas, and we have to replace them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI have a question for the Minister on clause 13, which deals with limited registration for temporary, overseas-qualified vets to work in this country. When the Minister extended the time frame within which they could work in New Zealand from 3 months to 12 months, and extended the roll-over time from 3 months to 12 months, what else was he going to do to make sure that we have enough vets practising in this country? He extended those time frames so that we could get more overseas vets here, and, hopefully, hook them for life, but what will he do about the young vets who train here, soaking up taxpayers\u2019 money and contributing a whole lot of their own money to their training, and then leave our shores? What will he do to bring them back, and what will he do to stop them leaving? Where is the Minister\u2019s answer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Minister can put a few pretty clauses in this legislation to extend the time frames for overseas-trained vets to work in New Zealand, but what will he do about ensuring our own young vets work in this country? What can we do about our own medical professionals, our own architects, our own engineers, our own nurses, our own teachers\u2014all the young people who go overseas, having had an investment made in them by the New Zealand taxpayer? What is the Minister\u2019s answer to that? I applaud the fact that we are welcoming overseas-qualified professional people, but I want young Kiwis to stay here and work here. I have invested in them. [Interruption] I do not want them to be driven overseas by Dianne Yates screeching across the House. Not everyone is like Dianne Yates\u2014that is what I would tell them. If I asked people not to leave, they would say they are not leaving just because of Dianne Yates, even though, my goodness she is scary. They would say they are leaving because of the taxes, the compliance costs, the political correctness, and then because of Dianne Yates. But they are leaving, and I want them to stay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E I am glad we are going to attract, hook, and retain overseas-trained vets, but I want the young ones whom we invest in to stay here, as well. They can go overseas for a couple of years, but then return. I ask the Minister, Jim Anderton, what he is doing about them. Where are the clauses in this legislation that deal with the young people whom we have invested in as taxpayers and as members of this country? What is the Minister\u2019s solution? I invite the Minister to take a call on that particular matter and enlighten this Committee on what he is doing to retain those young professionals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022473fe7f773574668b1eb035b4da2d118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022473fe7f773574668b1eb035b4da2d118\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E What the Government is doing in clause 13 is inviting the member to read it. There is no time limit on it\u2014no statutory time limit. The member has wasted 5 minutes railing about it, and it is not there. If he reads it, he will see that there is no statutory time limit for limited registration, so I invite him to read the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EA couple of other points were raised about the 4-year qualification period. I understand that that was agreed to with the Veterinary Council of New Zealand. The council says, in terms of qualifications both specific and time-limited, that the qualifications require a 4-year course. I am not going to second-guess the Veterinary Council. If the member wants to do that, he can go and see the councillors and have a chat to them. But I presume that select committee members understood that when they discussed the bill; if they did not, they may well have asked the question. But that is where it came from\u2014from discussions held with the Veterinary Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe question was raised originally just to get the bona fides right about my qualifications in terms of my ministerial warrant. I have the authority as the Minister of Agriculture to deal with all matters in that portfolio\u2014including animal health, this bill and the Act that will result from it, as well as the current Act, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI want to remind members who are complaining about the time frame for this bill, by the way, that it was introduced in January 2005. It is actually going through the House in December 2005. That is not too bad. If members want a track record of bills like this, I can tell them that the original bill, which was enacted in 1994, was in the House for 17 years. It was 17 years in the process, before it became an Act. So if we are looking for blame on time constraints, there is plenty to go around. That bill was in the House from the early 1970s to 1994, so we are processing this bill at lightening speed in comparison with what was happening before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIn terms of the questions as to why there are changes, I am a bit mystified. I sat in my chair and listened to National Party members railing that this bill has taken too long\u2014like 1 year\u2014that we had to get it passed urgently, and that vets were waiting and would be celebrating. Now I am asked why we are progressing it. Well, we are doing so because there were amendments that the vets themselves wanted made, and when those amendments were considered in relation to the Act, it was actually discovered that because the previous bill had been in the House for so long\u2014for 17 years\u2014it had virtually become antediluvian by the time it was passed and it was time to revise it virtually before it was enacted. So we are now doing the work that previous Parliaments did not do\u2014and I think we are doing it with great expedition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a13743697fba46d0bb6f1e9dfbf969f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a13743697fba46d0bb6f1e9dfbf969f4\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E It was good to see the Minister taking a call, but he did not answer one of the questions that I had in relation to the previous part, which was: why are we not dealing with some of the changes here by way of amendment? Why do we need to repeal the Veterinarians Act of 1994 in total and put in place a totally new bill? Why can we not just deal with some of the concerns the sector has had, by just incorporating the changes? It seems to me to be just a lot of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207832c1c757d44b59295f4001138189b\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: I answered that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8aaeb89cd0e4ff2838ead22f3021fb4\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says he answered that question, but he might like to clarify his position. My colleague Phil Heatley made some comments about some of the concerns of veterinarians. Although there seems to be consensus and support for this bill, I am wondering how the vets up and down the country are feeling as a result of one of the Government\u2019s announcements today. The Government has announced that it will increase the accident compensation levy for vets next year. It has just confirmed the rates for the 2006-07 year. As we know, most vets are self-employed, and the Government is going to increase the accident compensation levy from $3.22 to $3.54. So while we are dealing with a lot of issues related to the broader concerns of registration and how the vets run their sector, another decision has been made today by the Government and it is basically a bit of a kick in the guts to veterinarians who are trying to remain in business and provide a very valuable service to their local people. So while the Government, I am sure, is trying to be helpful by bringing in this bill, it is doing so on a day when it is making some decisions to the detriment of many veterinarians up and down the country. It will be interesting to hear the Minister\u2019s view on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOnce again, when we look at Part 2, we see that the bill has been absolutely rewritten as a result of the select committee\u2019s work. I understand that select committees do review legislation and may make some very important changes, but when we look at Part 2, which has been rewritten almost in its entirety, we wonder about the level of work that went into the writing of the first draft that had its first reading. I understand that there will be some changes during the select committee process\u2014often some significant changes\u2014but it is seldom that we see a bill coming back to the House that has been almost totally rewritten. It makes me wonder what work went into the bill prior to its first reading, when it is clear that as a result of greater scrutiny at the select committee the members on that committee have seen fit to make dramatic changes. Clause after clause has been struck out and totally rewritten, and I see here that that process was unanimously supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E But also, when we look at this part, we see that it attempts to prescribe in law a step-by-step approach for the Veterinary Council to make decisions about how it looks at registrations, how it evaluates them, and on what grounds it can decline them, and I am wondering why the process has to be prescribed in law in such great detail. Surely, once the council has been appointed one should have a certain amount of faith in it and in the work it does to oversee the registration of veterinarians. One does not need to prescribe what it does to the nth degree, which gives the council very little flexibility. I would not be surprised if this legislation contains a clause that I have not seen yet, telling the Veterinary Council when it can and cannot have its coffee breaks, because the prescription of the work the council will do basically gives very little leeway for it to make decisions. I believe that overarching legislation can be set in place, but there has to be faith in the industry and its representatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00229d414e213fcc4c06ad0237c6be527e46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d414e213fcc4c06ad0237c6be527e46\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I was not going to take a call on this part, but I am concerned about the comments made by the Minister, who took the opportunity to criticise my colleague Phil Heatley\u2014who put a tremendous amount of work into this legislation\u2014when he was talking about limited registration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2f8d617ca774cfd9ded7be3416f28c3\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Ask him whether he was right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9de9ff20ff0426d89a89946d6841726\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I will certainly take the opportunity of pointing out to the Committee that Phil Heatley obviously understands this legislation far better than the Minister does, after being briefed. Mr Heatley spent some time talking about time limits on limited registration, but the Minister does not seem to have been briefed on the point that the previous legislation had a 3-month time limit. The legislation as drafted by the previous Minister\u2019s office suggested a time limit of, initially, 12 months, with the ability to extend it for a further 12 months. To tidy up the mess created by the work of the previous Minister, the Primary Production Committee had to work closely with the Veterinary Council and it found that the best solution was not to have a time limit at all. That is the history of this, I tell Mr Anderton. It was the select committee, not the original legislation drafted by the Labour-Progressive Government, that finally got it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe value the opportunity to have limited registration, for two reasons. We acknowledge that because the oppressive tax rates of this country are driving a lot of our young, qualified vets offshore where they can earn more money in places like America, Australia, and England, we need to capture the opportunity of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6134422edc4b738e4fe54c08c792ce\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Not because of the tax rates, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209210246aec048589596b9711ce394ab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the Minister that about 600 young, qualified, and talented New Zealanders leave this country every week. If he asked them why they go, one of the reasons they would give him is the dramatic tax rates they have to pay in this country, compared with what they have to pay elsewhere around the world. The other reason is that the pay rates overseas are considerably better than they are here. That means that people who make the choice to go actually have far more money in their pockets at the end of each week. If the Minister had been awake earlier in the debate, he would have heard me say that my own niece who qualified as a vet at Massey University has spent most of her time practising in Melbourne rather than New Zealand because of tax rates and pay rates in Australia compared with New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EHowever, I want to concentrate on the time limits on limited registration, which is the part that the Minister clearly has not been well briefed on. I tell him that if he wants to take the opportunity to speak in the Committee stage, then I would appreciate his doing so. I really do appreciate finally having a Minister who takes the opportunity to rise to his feet and make a few comments as we ask questions, but he should at least take the opportunity of being briefed about the true history of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e24afb4958433c8b966ffaf7fbfb5b\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Brief your colleague.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235958bff791b44f09022995aa09bb44f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the Minister that Phil Heatley worked diligently on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c886bf693644e6292fcfada4f6b07bc\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: But he got it wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0a4f273798b4c4fb86855ea9995683c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we did not get it wrong. Every Labour member on the Primary Production Committee voted with us. This legislation has now come back before the House unanimously supported by the Labour members on that committee, so we did not get it wrong. That is why we are here today, passing the legislation through the House. We are happy to support it, because now it is right. It is right because the select committee did the work, and it is right because we had significant support from the Veterinary Council and the Veterinary Association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to comment a little more on limited registration. Among the things that became very evident to the select committee was that when we become so desperately short of qualified veterinarians in this country, we have the opportunity to employ vets who have specialist qualifications in a particular area. An example may be qualified veterinarians who have specialised in the area of food safety. Those people may not have extensive experience in large or small animal work, but that does not matter. We have the opportunity to recognise that those people have qualifications in their particular field, and that we need to grab their services because we are desperately short of qualified veterinarians in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00227593f8ac01b14167a5fb5c01b5830a43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227593f8ac01b14167a5fb5c01b5830a43\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002267f5a21af2c748e5ae06f5b3f925f6bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267f5a21af2c748e5ae06f5b3f925f6bf\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I think I am particularly qualified to talk on this bill, because I am a lawyer and I have a dog. I think that that makes me more than suitably qualified\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233326656bc78409eb1cf1fe8beed4a6f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: And you have a gun licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c49bb1f9101945558c278ffb220106d2\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do have a gun licence. So I do realise the importance of registration, and I do realise the importance of practising certificates, which is what I particularly want to focus on in relation to Part 2. There are certain parallels between the veterinary profession and the legal profession. Whilst lawyers do not necessarily deal with animals, they do at times have clients who may behave like animals. So I think that adds even more to my qualifications to talk on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe law profession is very similar to the veterinary profession, because lawyers who are registered as barristers and solicitors of the High Court of New Zealand are also required to hold a practising certificate, as are veterinarians under this bill. That is to promote the standards, the branding, and the consistency of the profession\u2019s reputation, and I will keep coming back to that. It is the same with veterinarians. In New Zealand veterinarians are a very well respected profession, and it is very important for the integrity of the profession that those standards and the branding are protected. I think that the amendment requiring a veterinarian to be both a registered person and the holder of a practising certificate\u2014it is not an either-or situation; one must have both\u2014is a very important one, and I commend the Primary Production Committee for that amendment and for insisting that it happen. Just for the sake of background, I refer to the explanatory note of the bill, which makes the bill\u2019s principal purpose clear\u2014again, going back to the question of branding and reputation. The explanatory note states that the amendment: \u201Cwill assist the Council to protect the reputation of the veterinary \u2018brand\u2019, ensuring that only those persons who have current skills and knowledge, and are subject to the Council\u2019s control, can use the term veterinarian.\u201D I think that is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EClauses 22 to 28 refer to the different provisions relating to the practising certificate. Again, it is not unlike a lawyer\u2019s practising certificate. Whilst we can be lawyers, we cannot hold ourselves out as practising solicitors without having a practising certificate. Similarly, with the veterinarians, the practising certificate has to be renewed annually, and that enables the council\u2014whatever council that might be; whether it be the New Zealand Law Society in the case of barristers and solicitors or the Veterinary Council in the case of vets\u2014to actually ensure that the person who is requesting and renewing a practising certificate is maintaining that consistency of standards and will not harm the reputation of the veterinary profession. And it ensures, in fact, that the branding of the veterinarians is maintained throughout the currency of that practising certificate. Similarly, with a lawyer\u2019s practising certificate\u2014and just as an aside, it is rather ironic that whilst we regulate in certain professions, there is a Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill coming through that is actually deregulating lawyers, but I guess that is a matter for another time. But in relation to the practising certificate, of course there must be provision for that practising certificate to be withheld and, in fact, suspended. That is just common practice. If somebody in the profession has breached the standards required of such a highly regarded profession, it is only right and fit that that person is no longer able to practise and can no longer hold a practising certificate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESo again I go back to the consistency of standards. This legislation is about maintaining the reputation and the correct branding for our highly regarded veterinarians. I will keep drawing the parallels with the barristers and solicitors legislation, the Law Practitioners Act, because, again, if required, we must hand in our practising certificate. If there has been an event of misconduct or some such thing, then it is for the reputation of all the good apples in the box that that practising certificate be withdrawn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u002271b97e6ead7c4da195a6597f4f32609a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271b97e6ead7c4da195a6597f4f32609a\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 2 of the Veterinarians Bill, regarding registration and practising certificates. I, too, have been registered and have held a practising certificate. There are a number of points that I will make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIt is only right and proper that the registration process be thorough. Interestingly, in this legislation it is so thorough that I return to my former theme\u2014that is, that Part 2 is absolutely full of areas that are struck out, and through the hard work of the Primary Production Committee new parts have come into this bill. Again I remind those present that this is because the original preparation work did not happen. When the former Minister of Agriculture brought this bill to the House, consultation with the appropriate sector had not happened, yet that sector had sought this bill, and members of that sector had said that this bill was necessary and that they should go forward into the future with the provisions that they would like. But the work had not gone in, and, therefore, it was left to the select committee. I hope one day that I will be a member of a select committee that will do such studious work and will come forward with something that is obviously well supported by the members of this House. I have not had the benefit of working with such a committee, but, as I say, I am looking forward to it. I also note the former comments that there was very good consultation and collaboration with the sector. That has resulted in the provisions that are now in this bill, and, in particular, registration and practising certificates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EAnother really good point that has been made by one of my colleagues is that this legislation is for registration of not only overseas veterinarians but also of New Zealand veterinarians. I wish that more of the New Zealand veterinarians were registered, and that we could keep them here in this country. I return to the theme that has been brought up before\u2014the theme of why these veterinarians are leaving New Zealand. There is no doubt in my mind that it is because of high taxation and high compliance costs. Earlier today we heard the amendments on the hazardous substances and new organisms legislation debated, and that is the bane of some veterinarians\u2019 lives as well. Then there are the PC problems, and the fact that the rest of their families are paying tax too. They have high student loans and indebtedness, and they are going overseas because they know they can put more money in their pockets by being anywhere but New Zealand. We have heard of the 600 people per week who head off to Australia\u2014our highly skilled and highly trained New Zealanders. So I say that it is really sad that veterinarians have waited for this bill for the last 6 months, because they are certainly looking forward to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe registration and practising certificate part of this bill is particularly important because it does protect the public of New Zealand, and it protects the animals of New Zealand. That is very important, because we have already heard about the cockatoo that had not been protected\u2014the cockatoo with the very good name that had been mistaken for a girl, a daughter, a woman, or something like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022507b1fb3b5744c269880c223a970557e\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: A lover!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220234dd31efb34840b3c3099c0c529015\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not sure it was the lover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022097d67aded724d6b9a5144b403e3f6d3\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Bestiality!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290351cb02f5941cd9ea180d23ca00d4d\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: No, we will not get into anything like that, thank you. The registration and practising certificate part of the bill does, in fact, protect both the animals of New Zealand and also the public. As we know, people get very emotive when they believe that the person who is providing care for their animal may not be appropriately registered. So it is only appropriate that all of the work that has gone on during this select committee process is in the legislation\u2014it is just such a shame that the original bill had not been carefully prepared by the Hon Jim Sutton, the previous Minister of Agriculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56fbabc268f493d96cb17515252a772\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Is he still a vet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d94bfb52ca094c778beee169b3dc7f65\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: I do not believe that the Hon Jim Sutton was a vet, but as a former farmer then he most certainly should have had in his heart the animals that he had formerly cared for and, in fact, his rural practice. It is interesting that in the House today we heard from Mr Woolerton and from Tariana Turia, who were both members of that committee, and we do find that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221958dc7175774949a2ab6c0a2c7af081\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221958dc7175774949a2ab6c0a2c7af081\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E This part deals with the issues of quality and competence from veterinarians. It is the bit of the bill that makes sure that those who are practising as veterinarians have the skills necessary, and it goes a bit further. In some cases it may provide for the limited registration of people so they can work with animals, either by species or by the particular conditions that those animals present. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut I think it is very interesting that on a day when the Government has decided to proceed with caution on the issue of xenotransplantation, there appears to be no capacity in this bill to ensure that a veterinarian working with animals who are part of a xenotransplanatation programme must care for those animals appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227967ec6dc11c478fb24515cb15dc89f0\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that all about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265eb72842ca34e7fb2814dca071b9309\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is about the science of taking genetic material from an animal and perhaps transplanting that material into the body of a human, or perhaps even taking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222975f0dad17e43888c6aa0c04d0f6f32\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: What!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225078b4baa2f44a0acaa538fce4d7eb6\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is basically how it works. The member might be a little bit concerned about that, but the Government has decided today to proceed with that science. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI know that there will be a lot of diabetics around who want that to progress. We do not have too much of a problem with that. Members will have seen this morning\u2019s Dominion Post. It featured a cartoon of the mouse with a human ear growing off its back. The deal there is that various molecules are transplanted into the mouse, the ear is grown, removed from the back of the mouse, and transplanted on to the human in the case of accidents. It is an interesting field of science. It is one that we simply cannot ignore because it will become more and more common.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abbe2d451864795868935b79ac06a68\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that got to do with this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0269e97d5b4dc296dcb66a306c66b8\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me just open the minds of members a little bit. Let me invite members to think outside the square and just consider that a veterinarian is basically an animal doctor. Do we not want those animals, who may eventually have some of their tissue transferred into humans, to be as well treated as possible? Do not those veterinarians have to have a far greater understanding of the medicine of the human body as well? It does not appear to me that there is anywhere in this part\u2014this is the part that states how people become qualified to be veterinarians\u2014any provision for that particular field of expertise to develop with recognition from the Veterinary Council of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to indicate to the Committee whether that has been considered. When they were taking the report from that excellent Minister, Mr David Benson-Pope, recommending the cautious proceeding with xenotransplantation technology, did they get any sort of report from him about the particular husbandry that may need to go around animals that are part of that programme? It is not a simple issue. It is not a funny issue. It is a very serious one, because one would not want to have\u2014as the Green Party has pointed out\u2014some form of viral transmission through the fact that the various animals that are going to provide opportunities for people to have a better quality of life have not had the best of care or the best of understanding from those who are looking after them during the process of developing the tissue of any type that is to be transplanted. So it is a serious issue, and one, not surprisingly, that has not been considered\u2014but there must have been a Cabinet paper at least, or a line on a report somewhere that mentioned the particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAt the same time, I am interested in clause 13, which deals with the scopes of limited registration. I am a little bit confused about this. Would, for example, someone dealing with the very, very specific science of xenotransplantation end up with a limited registration? Would we, for example, say that the person does not have to know a great deal about the husbandry of horses or any other animals other than those that are of part of the xenotransplantation programme? Could that person be, in fact, a scientist who had a general interest in science and was qualified enough to be granted a limited practising certificate and limited registration? Speaking of limited, I say to members that if they want to see people who are limited they should look across to the New Zealand First Party. Not only are they limited, they are oppressed; they are a people oppressed. There are only a few of them, of course, and there will be even fewer of them in the future. I wonder where their leader is today. He should be here, talking about this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister, quite seriously, whether this limited registration will be a way for various scientists to gain partial registration to advance the cause of xenotransplantation. I see the Minister is thumbing through some papers. I assume he has something there to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d54faba73954e59abcc8551b3e2d170\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Whatever I\u2019ve got is more sensible than this speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022129bde6c2076444bbd48c7b9a4f5cc85\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says it is not sensible. I am asking the Minister what the Government would do if one of the programmes for xenotransplantation saw the transport of a virus from an animal to a human. That is exactly what we are worried about when it comes to bird flu. The Minister sits there laughing and saying this is not a serious issue. It is an issue that is bothering households up and down this country as we speak. It is an issue that is bothering nations all around the world as we speak. But Mr Anderton says that it makes no sense and is not even worth talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is a bill determining who may work with animals. We have another part of the Government saying that we may now get into xenotransplantation\u2014cautiously, but none the less it is going to happen. We saw the example on the news this morning of tissue being taken from pigs to be placed into humans. If that tissue has a virus attached to it that otherwise would not affect a human and therefore goes into the human body and starts another reaction in the chain\u2014this is the Greens\u2019 issue, and I agree with them on this\u2014what might be the consequences? There is not a single qualification in this bill to ensure that those who work with those animals have that understanding. The Veterinary Council is allowed to give limited registration, but what does that mean in this context? The council is allowed to register veterinarians, but how does that work in this context? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think that the Minister, who is sitting there, saying we are talking a load of rubbish, is a bit like the ostrich putting his head in the sand, or like the fellow in the early part of the 19th century who said that all scientific knowledge in the world had been discovered. This issue is going to go on. It is going to keep bothering people, and bills like this should not ignore it. I would like to see where this enlightened Government took its advice from. Clearly there will be a Cabinet paper, probably somewhere on Mr Benson-Pope\u2019s desk, that indicates there is a link between these two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229696f0dded9e43ec945cd81e668801ef\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: He will leak it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcba8b8f1d1d4040838df56d3bb13816\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Bill English says that there is every possibility that we will read about it in a selected Sunday newspaper, as Mr Benson-Pope leaks it to them in order that the right slant might be put upon xenotechnology vis-\u00E0-vis the veterinarians\u2019 story. I would like the Minister to indicate whether that has been considered, and perhaps indicate whether the Government does see the issue of viral transportation from one species to another as being a serious risk not only for New Zealand but for all countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere are, of course, some people who would benefit enormously from a bit of xenotransplantation. If it were possible, Winston Peters would, I think, be slicing genes out of poodles and shoving them into his members just as quickly as he possibly could.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u002282a71da0e4364feb84a6b0bd0bc39c7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282a71da0e4364feb84a6b0bd0bc39c7c\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022437302b231d446268a2c74d0b83fbc8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022437302b231d446268a2c74d0b83fbc8a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a different tack on this. Part 2 contains the most prescriptive rubbish I have ever seen. The problem with this country is that we are over-regulated. We have far too many Acts of Parliament. What do we see here? It is a part of a bill about veterinarians that basically tells them how to suck eggs and to do everything else in between. Sure, the council should be the body that gets everybody together and takes the registrations, but what do we do? We 121 members of Parliament say: \u201CRight, on Monday at 10 o\u2019clock you\u2019ll do this.\u201D That is basically, in effect, what Part 2 does. From day to day it sets out exactly what the council is there for and what it does. It does not give the council any room to manoeuvre. It does not give the council any way, shape, or form to go about doing its business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273c1ad8b12c544048ae571ee353390a8\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Flexible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ca521ce7c8249e5ae2587313231bcc5\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It cannot be flexible. This is the most inflexible legislation I have seen. Oh yes, of course we will vote for it, because at the end of the day it is about quality, and about the registration and operation of veterinarians. But I do not like it one bit. I do not like it because of the fact that it is too prescriptive. It is far too prescriptive. The trouble with this country is that the 121 members of Parliament believe that we are the experts. Why do we not leave the experts\u2019 job to the experts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200ea6f17633f4663b4e8e322d2c15232\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: We realise you aren\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc3403530514f4f9720eab0ff23be03\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: There we go. We have a classic example in this House of a failed farmer who thinks he is a vet, thinks he knows what he is talking about because he moved a couple of cows into the milking shed, and thinks that now gives him the right and the expertise to talk about veterinarians. [Interruption] Well, I do not know what he did with the cows while he was in the milking shed, but I do not want to go there\u2014that is not actually part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIn respect of overseas vets, this is a classic example of how we try to over-regulate the market and tell everybody what to do. If an overseas veterinarian comes here, why does the Veterinary Council of New Zealand not take up the cudgels, take up the job, and look at that person\u2019s qualifications? Overseas veterinarians should be checked out, by all means\u2014that is not a problem. Why does that have to be in an Act of Parliament? Why can we not allow the council to do its job? That job is to look after the registration and to look after the quality of vets that we have in the country. It is pretty simple. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe Hon Brian Donnelly is looking over at me while I am speaking and is pointing at the Minister. Why would he point to the Minister? I know what that means. Brian Donnelly is saying that it is the Minister\u2019s fault, but it is not his fault. It is the fault of the coalition partner\u2014New Zealand First. We know that it is the fault of the coalition partner. I have heard people say it is the \u201CPeters-Clark\u201D leadership, but that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about giving the power to those who know best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThose people know their industry. Why are we saying to the council: \u201CLook, guys, we\u2019ll take the registrations, we\u2019ll suss out whether you are a good person\u2014we\u2019ll do all of that.\u201D Why do we pretend to know everything about everything? Why do we do that? Is it because we want a job in the next 10 to 15 years, so that once in a blue moon somebody will come to the House or to a parliamentarian and say: \u201CUnder the Veterinarians Act 2005 \u2026\u201D? It is a load of rubbish. We are over-regulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u002251fd414b9bf0456bba30724083cb426a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251fd414b9bf0456bba30724083cb426a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of subclause (1) the number \u201C4\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C5\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222eb7bb59857946a08c73c00ae91668f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000652\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000653\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of subclause (1) the number \u201C4\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C6\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002230efe37061674f2595824cc8eff4b36d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000654\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000655\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of subclause (1) the number \u201C4\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C7\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224083e6510d3d4d39987b67b4968ebda9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000656\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000657\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of subclause (1) the number \u201C4\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C8\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223b227f27595a47beb55d8c70a40e7269\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000658\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000659\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (b) of subclause (1), after the word \u201Cstudy\u201D, the words \u201Cand 1 year of practical experience\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221f1dcbaa78ec4f998a4e7a209c3d9c23\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000660\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000661\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (b) of subclause (1), after the word \u201Cstudy\u201D, the words \u201Cand 2 years of practical experience\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d23d25dacd214490b527911c96acccc5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000662\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000663\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (b) of subclause (1), after the word \u201Cstudy\u201D, the words \u201Cand 4 years of practical experience\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bea4aaabda3a4c22817ac63ccf6b599e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000664\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 6 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000665\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (b) of subclause (1), after the word \u201Cstudy\u201D, the words \u201Cand 5 years of practical experience\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229763eeca8e2d4fb186b4fb5423f3696c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000666\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000667\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (i) of paragraph (a) the number \u201C7\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C8\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221012bce02d3a41bf95e2ce64fb1e2291\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000668\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000669\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (i) of paragraph (a) the number \u201C7\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C9\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227cac34af902044b69f89261a951885b7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000670\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 9 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000671\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (i) of paragraph (a) the number \u201C7\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222b9935a3835f4058aa2b8692afb94fbe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000672\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000673\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000674\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022fae6516dd1ca45d0bd16f69e7b602afb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fae6516dd1ca45d0bd16f69e7b602afb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Before beginning Part 3, there is a proposal to divide Part 3 by the insertion of a new Part 3A, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8, with clauses 56 to 64, formerly part of Part 3, becoming part of the new Part 3A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a822327622a24eacbd2947c11088dcc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a822327622a24eacbd2947c11088dcc5\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E By way of information for members of the Committee, I am advised by the clerk that this is the appropriate procedure for this provision. I move, That Part 3 be divided by the insertion of a new Part 3A, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8, with clauses 56 to 64, formerly part of Part 3, becoming part of a new Part 3A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2cd03c79b534781ab8fff4a30d16ff4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2cd03c79b534781ab8fff4a30d16ff4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Can I just check whether we will have the opportunity to debate the new part in a separate debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbed7666c8b9487e9531c28f781dc078\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you certainly will. That is a separate debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6584f1055354eccb7059082156ff7e3\u0022\u003EPart 3  Complaints, disciplinary hearings, medical and competence assessments, and conditions of practice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00227cef0d1504124d5c9e1abcff10d18230\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cef0d1504124d5c9e1abcff10d18230\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3, which deals with complaints, disciplinary hearings, medical and competence assessments, and conditions of practice, is a necessary part. If we are to have robust legislation and a series of requirements\u2014and a number of members have spoken about the necessity of having a credible veterinary practice\u2014we need mechanisms to deal with anomalies, much as we would hope that there are none, or, indeed, very few, if any. This part deals with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI may have missed something, but I have sat here and read the headings of the 40 clauses that Part 3 had, before the division that we have just agreed to with the absorption of Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of the Minister Jim Anderton. I have read the 40 clauses, and I do not understand. There is clause 30AA, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, and then mention in clause 30 of some sort of quango that I cannot identify anywhere else in the bill. That is the complaints assessment committee. The complaints assessment committee is mentioned at least 17 times in Part 3 as an all-powerful, all-knowledgable creature that will deal with problems. But I do not find, when reading the bill, how that beast\u2014that complaints assessment committee\u2014will be created, who will be on it, what the requirements to be on it will be, how often it will meet, how members will be replaced, how their performance might be reviewed, and what their role in this process will be. I am not saying that we do not need the committee, but, if we have it, we need to know where the members will come from and what their particular qualifications might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ERightfully, this Part 3 is very strong on words like \u201Cobserve the rules of natural justice\u201D. In clause 32 the words \u201Cgood faith\u201D are used. This body is to determine whether there have been breaches in performance by vets in a range of things, including practise, payment of dues, sloppy procedures, and inadequate recording\u2014one thing after another. I want to know who those complaints assessment committee members will be, and how that committee will be created. That information may well be in the bill; if it is, it needs to be more prominent, because I have spent half an hour trying to find it. That in itself is an issue. I would like to be proven wrong, because I do not want to enact a power to an authority and not know where its members are from. The Minister in the chair, Jim Anderton, is nodding, so I will look forward to his response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ELet us assume that the information is in this bill, and that I have had a senior moment and not been able to see it or find out where it is. It would seem to me appropriate that those people would have some kind of veterinary experience. That would be somewhat logical, if they are to assess their peers. But if we are to take seriously the words about natural justice being observed, one must ask whether those people, if they are veterinarians, are practising, and whether they can be objective if they are in a practice that may or may not be in competition with someone who is deemed to have breached the rules and is required to appear before the all-powerful complaints assessment committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E I say to the Minister that I think the Committee needs some elucidation on just who is on the complaints assessment committee, how committee members are created, and how their performance might be reviewed. Are they practising veterinarians, in competition with other veterinarians who might find themselves having to appear before the all-powerful, all-knowledgeable complaints assessment committee? I am just a little bit alarmed by the vagueness surrounding this issue. I see that the officials are now briefing the Minister, so I will look forward\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222844354da4a843b2bbb1040d6c599277\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t understand what you\u2019re saying, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f299c1f908a45b3acef8ccc6ed18f63\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, it is quite clear. The Minister cannot understand, but I am asking quite clearly who sets up the complaints assessment committee. I can find no rules in Part 3, which is the part dealing with complaints and disciplinary hearings, as to where its members come from. Yes, they exist. Maybe they already exist. Are they set up under a provision in previous legislation? Before I can vote on this part, I need to know where they come from, who they are, and whether they are practising\u2014all the matters I have mentioned. And that is of absolute, paramount importance. If this is a robust and credible piece of legislation, then how the committee is created ought to be recorded in Part 3, which is the part of the bill about complaints and disciplinary hearings. Does the Minister understand my request?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022005342993512413b95affd2a554273b5\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ef3b85793d449d9979028451c70969\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022069fb40a668c49bba9decba18b19d78e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022069fb40a668c49bba9decba18b19d78e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Eric Roy for his very good contribution to this debate. I am surprised the Minister could not answer him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022488f421beaaa4ea99050493520c8bcf7\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df3c29888262492b8b8588e0bb544431\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I guess the member is right. But I see that the Minister is being briefed now so that he can try to explain his own legislation, because Eric Roy raised some very valid questions. I say to Eric Roy that he has to understand that some of the answers to the questions he has raised are clearly elucidated in Part 4. We will look forward to spending the next 4 or 5 hours discussing that part, so then his questions will be answered. The Minister now knows as well, as the officials have been busy telling him where a definition of the complaints assessment committee exists within the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis was a part of the legislation to which the select committee put in a huge amount of effort. We deal here with the very delicate situation of providing a rigorous, fair complaints procedure that has the opportunity to test the competency of veterinarians to practise within New Zealand. It became very interesting to the committee that 50 percent of the submissions we heard were actually from owners of pets that had died, and those owners felt very aggrieved that the veterinary profession had let them down. We had the sad case about which Doug Woolerton spoke so brilliantly earlier today in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e32acd6068e143d693b8710199c72c7b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242cb7129f2f541fbb23f5b2ee6765d86\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, Doug Woolerton sat through the select committee deliberation when we had the submission on Bianca the cockatoo. Bianca the cockatoo was owned by Maureen Green and Jeanette Parker. In fact, Bianca\u2019s full name was Bianca Parker-Green.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d007d9ec1b541f19db00cefa91ed1fa\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Is she allowed a vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297d5a615c37042daac3e2450e5ff99da\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, Bianca is not allowed to vote; sadly, Bianca has passed on. But the point I am making here is that we were astounded by the strength of the submission we received around Bianca and her perceived treatment by the vet. So we want to make sure that we have a process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022401a780b07304eacbb8a3720539a7219\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s crying; he\u2019s moved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224802b1a7b37f4808bd1b7f1b2ed23a2c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I am certainly not that upset. We want to make sure that we develop a bill here that has a process by which, in future cases of a Bianca, the client of the vet has a legitimate process whereby the concern can be well aired and, if a vet has acted incompetently, the profession has a chance to discipline that particular person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI tell Eric Roy\u2014and the Minister may by now understand\u2014that making a complaint to the complaints assessment committee will in fact be the very first procedure that an aggrieved pet owner will go through, and the committee will be the body by which the profession will judge whether a complaint is valid. It will not make a decision at that stage as to whether there should be disciplinary action. That is a further process, to be handled through what we call the judicial committee. But in the case of this new legislation, when passed, Ms Parker and Ms Green would first of all approach the complaints assessment committee and present their case about the sad demise of Bianca, and the committee would make a ruling as to whether a case existed that warranted investigation or whether the case required no further investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI know that I have spent some time talking about Bianca, but that was the strongest case we had. We also had a very, very moving case from Caroline and Angus Macdonald, who were very concerned about the treatment their dog received. They took the opportunity to come before the select committee to try to ensure that we worked through this legislation to present an Act that would give such people the chance to have a fair hearing. Dennis and Gillian Weatherell also came to us because of the treatment they felt they had received from their own vet, at the time, on one of their dogs. The select committee found, with the strength of presentation of those submissions, that people feel very deeply, obviously\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211e1a274a0054a368cf4e09948298883\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Passionate about their animals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e5325293d64f0d95a3604a13285303\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014absolutely passionate\u2014more passionate than the Minister is at the moment, I might add, in his treatment of this legislation. People become very passionately involved in the treatment their animals receive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u002261da228fe12a4046b7e2873afd3393bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261da228fe12a4046b7e2873afd3393bb\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E After I listened to Mr Roy for 7 minutes, he still could not find where complaints assessment committees were mentioned in the bill. It is in clause 74: \u201CComplaints assessment committees\u201D\u2014not surprisingly. The complaints assessment committee is actually appointed by the Veterinary Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022da08eb3d2ff9477eae176820f509edae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da08eb3d2ff9477eae176820f509edae\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to look at other matters in Part 3 to do with the suspension of registration, with disciplinary hearings when a disciplinary action occurs, and also with the rights of appeal of those who apply to have a vet disciplined, and the rights of vets themselves to appeal when they are disciplined or have temporary suspension of their registration. I would like to signal that for me to move through those particular clauses, and the concerns that I have, may take a second 5-minute speech. I will be appealing to you, Madam Chairperson, that I have that opportunity, although I appreciate that it is at your discretion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EBefore I embark on that particular matter, though, I would like to raise with members the matter of the unusual clause 30AA, \u201CInterpretation\u201D. They will recall a matter to do with clause 30AA that I outlined in my second reading speech. It was to do with those vets who would thwart disciplinary action or suspension by saying that because they no longer held practising certificates or because they were no longer registered, they could not be disciplined. In other words, they would say their sin, if you like, occurred in another life when they were registered or did have a practising certificate. They would say that yes, the relevant conduct may have occurred only 3 months ago, but that they no longer held a practising certificate, were no longer registered, and could not be caught. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWell, that is not the case, because the Primary Production Committee recommended to the Minister and Parliament that an amendment be inserted as new clause 30AA, to make it clear that for the purpose of complaints and disciplinary action, or for the issue of medical incompetence assessments, a \u201Cspecified person\u201D is defined as someone who holds a practising certificate, but also includes someone who held a practising certificate that had lapsed when he or she was called to account. If people were practising as vets or were seen to be practising as vets, whether or not they were registered and held a practising certificate, they can be held to account, but clause 30AA also deals to those people whose practising certificates have lapsed when they are called to account. I think that is an interesting thing to raise with members, simply because it is just one of the little loopholes that the select committee, through intense and expansive investigation, pulled out of the original bill and was able to fix. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to move on to the other matters I signalled at the beginning of my speech that I want to traverse. First of all, concerning the issue of the grounds for a disciplinary hearing in clause 43, members will recall that in the debate on the last part I warned past and future vets that if they faced criminal charges and were convicted of crimes before the courts, their ability to practise veterinary science in this country is under threat. They should not embark on a life of crime, not only because, obviously, it hurts other New Zealanders but also because there are long-term consequences, as well as short-term consequences, that can hurt their careers\u2014and I have warned them. Let it be said today that no vet shall be able to stand before a judge and say that Phil Heatley failed to warned him or her not embark on a life of crime. Vets will be held to account for their criminal convictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI want to raise another matter, which is brought up in clause 43. Not only can a vet be refused registration because he or she has committed a criminal offence, whether in this country or in another country, but that person can also be subject to the provisions of clause 43(1). The clause states that the council may take one or more actions at the conclusion of a disciplinary hearing, where it is satisfied that a vet has been convicted within the last 7 years or has another offence that has a direct bearing on the profession, where a vet\u2019s practice reflects adversely on his or her fitness to practise as a veterinarian, or where a vet has been found guilty of professional misconduct or of any act or omission that affects or discredits the profession\u2014and that person can be deregistered. That is a very serious act of discipline, indeed, because it could cut short what is potentially a very positive and fruitful career for that person. I would just say that someone can be refused registration as a vet if he or she embarks on criminal activity, but what is worse is that someone can effectively be deregistered if he or she is already a vet. Members should take warning; I have informed them of that today. So that is the matter of deregistration, or of being refused registration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThere is also the issue of the interim suspension of a veterinary practitioner. In fairness, an interim suspension is all about suspending a vet so that there can be an investigation that may or may not lead to proof of guilt in that case, and to possible deregistration. The debate that we had in the select committee was about how long a vet should have his or her registration suspended before it is reasonable for a decision to be made and for that person be reinstated, struck off, or deregistered. Originally, the legislation stated the period should be 20 working days, but the Veterinary Council and others came to us and said that although it was reasonable for the vet who has been suspended to have such a short time frame, it was not long enough for the council to do its investigations. The council wanted to have 50 working days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe were a bit concerned about that. For someone who would be taking a forced suspension from his or her career and who would, effectively, be unemployed, there is immense uncertainty for up to 50 working days. But we succumbed to the arguments of the Veterinary Council. We listened to it, we heard its arguments, and we decided that if it takes 50 working days to gather the information, analyse it, and make a serious and considered judgment, so be it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e6d1e4345e84a2894402d9393708875\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: 50?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022895391d253c04f0fb34ba15ca76892e0\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: We put the period at 50 working days. We allowed the Veterinary Council to take 50 working days before it had to, in effect, make a decision. Members will see that is provided for in clauses 37 and 37A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAnother matter that was raised was the matter of appeals. We have allowed vets to appeal a Veterinary Council decision to the District Court, and I do not think one could ask for more than that. The select committee has told vets that it would give them access to the District Court to appeal a decision made by the Veterinary Council. I think that vets have a very strong power here, indeed, to appeal against something that can seriously impinge on their career or give rise to questions over their conduct. If vets feel aggrieved in some way or feel that they have not had a decent hearing from their own council, they can now appeal to the District Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EInterestingly enough, we did not allow that option for a vet\u2019s accusers. We have not allowed those who bring a complaint against a vet to appeal to the District Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb25cb89e5640c2a66dc28ecef93364\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227efc74deea794926b2a72b72a2168b76\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Now members may ask why we did not\u2014there is a big shout\u2014but the simple reason is that complainants are witnesses to the vet\u2019s practice. They are simply witnesses to the vet\u2019s practice, but the vet himself or herself is an active participant in either foul practice or good practice that has been misinterpreted. Complainants are simply witnesses, so why should they be allowed to appeal to the District Court? They can, though, go to the High Court and seek a judicial review, to look at the issue and check that all has been done properly. So complainants can challenge the complaints assessment committee process by judicial review in the High Court, but they cannot go to the District Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022872743f1ae3042a8815a57ed054e660e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022872743f1ae3042a8815a57ed054e660e\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E As many members in the Committee have probably realised, I am not one to get bogged down in the detail unless it is absolutely essential, but I have to say that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a104ae0b80164c66bb7972a76e4bc3ed\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about Bianca.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206a08d9fd49e456bacbdba2b44d3c585\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I will, because that story goes to the heart of what this bill is all about. People who look on their pets, who have pets in their lives, and who transfer their love to those pets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de8ad2faa20a40bfaa46d25310dcbd07\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Companions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16d283591ed4d94a6dfef811de6a73a\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014companions; that is the way those people look at it\u2014want to know whether any redress is available to them if things go wrong, if their pets are not treated in a professional manner, or if the pets are not treated by someone their owners see as competent. If they are not happy, they want to know whether something can be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIn the case of Bianca, Bianca\u2019s family\u2014her parents, her caregivers; I shall put it that way\u2014wanted to know what the select committee would do about it and, through the select committee, they wanted to know what Parliament would do about it. They were in what they saw as the highest court in the land, and they demanded some answers from our chairman. To give our chairman some credit\u2014which I do not like doing too often\u2014he took that case seriously. He brought us into line as a committee and said that we must do something in this bill to reassure people that they have redress, that veterinary practitioners are competent, and that even where the veterinarian is competent and a member of the public feels they are not, there is somewhere members of the public can go to have the matter sorted out. It is not only about competency; it is not only about being right; it is about the public being satisfied that right has been done. Our chairman, to his credit, took that case up and made sure that the provisions dealing with complaints were in the bill, to ensure that those things happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe public must have confidence in vets. Out on the farm there is an element of callousness\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b44773c039614e4d91d6521fed76dbb6\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: They have more confidence in vets than they do in New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225860cc835cb9406092ece4d3678d7497\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Carter, as a farmer, will understand that he will spend a finite amount of money on a sheep, a cattle beast, or whatever. But, when it comes to small animals\u2014to cockatiels, to Bianca\u2014there is no limit to what a person is prepared to spend. There is no limit to the redress they will demand if they do not believe that their \u201CBianca\u201D is being treated right, and our chairman made sure that the bill took care of that. So it is not only a matter of ensuring that right is done but also that the public need to have complete faith that it is being done, and they need to see that it is being done. In the end, they need to know that there is a process that is robust and that will censure those vets. In the tragic case of Bianca, the public did not feel there was enough censure in the system, so we have worked hard to put that into the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00223a2bf4b9274543a19fa1177ea660cc91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a2bf4b9274543a19fa1177ea660cc91\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E What an inspirational contribution that was. I think that people sitting at home listening to this debate can rest easy knowing that with people on the Primary Production Committee like Doug Woolerton, David Carter, and Phil Heatley, they have strong advocates there. Pet owners of this nation can feel happy that they have people on that committee who are just as passionate about their pets as they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe have heard a number of members discuss the sad case of Bianca Parker-Green, the sulphur-crested cockatoo. I think we should rename this part the \u201CBianca part\u201D, because this whole part is really about how we deal with complaints against vets. We should really refer to this part as the one that deals with what happens when vets go bad. This is where New Zealanders who have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270446023552d4509b2882ee5bbbccb91\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: When they go ape!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bddd9abd837f42d5b7db66f338187662\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Woolerton says: \u201CWhen they go ape!\u201D. It is the part that sets out how complaints will be dealt with and how they will be treated, and the steps that the Veterinary Council goes through when it receives valid complaints about the treatment that some vets in this country have delivered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESo I will speak this evening about the complaints assessment committee. I would like to make a few comparisons between the set-up that the bill will put in place for the complaints assessment committee and the set-up that we have for select committees in this Parliament. One of the things I am unsure about is the power that the complaints assessment committee will have. I would like members to turn to clause 35A, \u201CPower to call for information or documents\u201D, which states: \u201C\u2026 a complaints assessment committee may, by written notice, require any person to provide to the committee any papers, documents, records, or things.\u201D Just as a small aside, I would like the Minister in the chair, the Hon Parekura Horomia, to stand and tell us what is meant by the word \u201Cthings\u201D. Since we are talking about vets, the mind boggles about some of the \u201Cthings\u201D that could be called upon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIf we look at the power this assessment committee has, we see that it has stronger powers than a parliamentary select committee. People who have followed a similar inquiry\u2014or complaint, as such\u2014within Parliament at the moment will have been watching the TVNZ inquiry. One of the things the select committee found was that even though it could invite people to appear before the committee, or could write to people such as Susan Wood, Bill Ralston, or Paul Holmes, there really was no requirement for any of those people to attend. But if we liken the powers that this complaints assessment committee will have, we see that it will have the legal right to require any person to attend a committee. So we have the situation of the complaints assessment committee having stronger rights than a parliamentary select committee. I wonder why that is. I would like the Minister to take a call and explain why the complaints assessment committee has stronger powers than a parliamentary select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EAs one of the previous speakers pointed out when talking about the Bianca incident, the owners of that cockatoo felt that they were coming to the highest court in the land to put forward their views. I would agree with that. Yet here we have the situation whereby a very, very minor court\u2014if we could call it that\u2014the complaints assessment committee, will have stronger powers than a parliamentary select committee. That TVNZ inquiry has called person after person to appear, and those people have declined to come. Yet we will say to vets that if they are in the gun, if there is a complaint about them, the complaints assessment committee will have the power to call absolutely anybody as it makes an assessment of those complaints. I do not think that is right. I think the Minister needs to explain why he is satisfied that the assessment committee has stronger powers than a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dae8c9c1ead84856a5f6aaca04ac62e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dae8c9c1ead84856a5f6aaca04ac62e0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is always sad when we hear a very emotional speech from Doug Woolerton. I suppose, when somebody speaks emotionally about Bianca Parker-Green, we remember our own pets. Mine was Gee. He was a mongrel. He did not worry about that. He got run over and he has gone to that big kennel in the sky. We took him to the vet but he died overnight. It is ironic that it was on the day of my first National Party regional conference in Auckland, and I was not there for him. I picked him up and took him home, and we buried him in the backyard, where the daisies grow now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287af4694321840499d251d380ce997af\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Are you allowed to do that in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022322bb0c31f454ff382a80693404bff40\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! It is my land. But I always wondered whether the vet had done the right thing by my dog. I always had the feeling in the back of my head\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1b5bdf6ada4fadac4ddc20549904f8\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Gut\u2014in your gut!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba6676d6befc41598b60bf2833d92099\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in my gut. Well, there is plenty of it. I wondered whether the vet had done the right thing by Gee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc301fcb0814448b64b1a3488d2a8a7\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Who killed Old Yeller?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219569b1cb3dc46d1b7644bbd6238da76\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Who killed Gee? Was it the person who was driving the boy-racer car, or was it the vet? To this day I really do not know. How ironic it is that we are talking\u2014[Interruption] I see that the comedy act for Labour, the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, has turned up. He sat in the chair for about 5 minutes, and did not know what he was doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233bbfc7aa69b4f3b8448a7cd05abd5ac\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Before I was rudely interrupted by the dinner break, I was talking about my dear departed Gee, the hybrid\u2014not mongrel, I am told\u2014dog. I will be attempting to take another call, as I am allowed to do under the Standing Orders, but I want to say that we have always wondered whether the vet did right by our dog. We still, to this day, do not know whether the vet let him toddle off into kennel land. I suppose the irony of it is today we are celebrating the opening of King Kong down the road. King Kong is another animal that is doomed to go to the big ape place in the sky\u2014something that maybe New Zealand First members know something about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the part of the commentary dealing with the complaints assessment committee. It states: \u201CSome submitters said the existing complaints and disciplinary processes are weighted in favour of veterinarians.\u201D\u2014hence the insertion of, I think, clause 30. It is just like the Police Complaints Authority; people need to have trust and faith in the process. I still think there is some way we can fix this. I still think there is a provision in this bill that we should change. It is veterinarians who are on the assessment committee and it is veterinarians who are on the judicial committee. It is a wee bit too much like the Police Complaints Authority, where police investigate complaints against the police. There needs to be, somewhere in Part 3, a defined demarcation between the council, those who sit on the assessment committee, and those who sit on the judicial committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThat is what this part is supposed to do\u2014to give a bit of trust. It is supposed to provide a process that the public can trust. Many people in this country have pets, whether they be birds, dogs, cats, goldfish, horses, or, in Mr Woolerton\u2019s case, cows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299202ef9ab2c43ad8b5827259ef2509f\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Three of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229430ac1d25ab458d8e4a19bac7d7f94d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: He has three cows. He is a huge farmer. Daisy is one of Doug Woolerton\u2019s cows, I think. We are supposed to engender that trust and faith in a process, and I still do not think Part 3 actually does that, at all. The Primary Production Committee has done its utmost to try to get that separation between the organisations, but if somebody feels he or she has a complaint to make against a veterinarian, there still is no clear demarcation between those who are on the assessment committee and those who are on the judicial committee, and I would like to see more work done on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229024a59636124399a6644d7290762af0\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s in Part 4, Tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228631593157254a56979d6c6fc4c032ed\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not. If the member reads the bill properly\u2014as I am sure she has; I am not for 1 minute accusing her of having not read the bill\u2014she will see that Part 3 is about the assessment committee and the judicial committee. There has to be more demarcation between the two. Like I said, it is a bit like the Police Complaints Authority; we really have to engender some trust and faith in those processes in order for them to work. We have seen, in the case of Bianca Parker-Green, the sulphur-green cockatoo, that the owners did not have enough faith or trust in the process. Where could they go to get that trust, that faith and confidence in the process? It is a delicate balance, because there have to be skilled people on these committees. I would question how people get on those committees, but, as my learned colleague said, that comes up in Part 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to take a brief moment to congratulate the chairman of the committee, the Hon David Carter, and also my bench mate, Phil Heatley, on his impassioned plea about clause 30AA. That clause catches those who run away and say they are not veterinarians any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a697e0c54614a6e8de4972b49f82857\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t keep running.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d147fa87b36a45f5a9e58b2872533dd1\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: They cannot keep running\u2014\u201CYou can run but you can\u2019t hide.\u201D That is the great thing about that clause. Phil Heatley did an amazing amount of work on it. I congratulate the committee on that part of it. It really does try to get the balance right, and to get some faith and trust in the process, but I am afraid that it falls a bit short because the council picks the people who do the assessment and also the people who sit on the judicial committee. So I think we need to tweak that a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI do not know what the Minister in the chair, Jim Anderton, might have to say about that. I hope he takes a call and points out where I am going wrong\u2014or not. I say that if we are to have a process that works properly, then we have to make sure that the process does work, and that people have enough trust and faith in that process to go down that track whenever they feel that their pet has not been given justice, I suppose, or the right medicine. Those are my issues on that. I hope the Minister takes a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa0c4c96907a4ca693957345ef544164\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa0c4c96907a4ca693957345ef544164\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Sometimes in talkback land one can let the facts get away with one\u2019s prejudice, but here in the Chamber one cannot. It would be a good idea if people kept to the facts\u2014or made an attempt at it. We are told that the committees are all mixed up, and that there are veterinarians all over the place. Actually, the member was dealing with new Part 3A anyway, which is inserted by Supplementary Order Paper 8 in my name, and which we are not supposed to be dealing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd15b5ec9259435aac37c1143a0f48ff\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: No, clause 69.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022544375d4ee834856856db4ff8f34ac39\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let us look at clause 69, \u201CComposition of Council\u201D, for a start. We can see the composition of the council is three veterinarians, two laypersons, one veterinarian appointed by the Minister, and the person for the time being responsible for veterinary science at Massey University. So we have a mix there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a78c3caaf36c40cc80121e2200cdc83d\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am trying to help the Minister. He is now moving to clause 69, which is in Part 4. We are still discussing Part 3, with Part 3A to go. Then we will move to Part 4, when we will have plenty of time to talk about the composition of the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5d32267edc4f8a9520b5198d8c5d55\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, we just heard that all the judicial committees and all the complaints committees are all mixed up, with veterinarians and council members everywhere. I responded to that by saying that the facts are that the council members appoint the committees. In the committees we are looking at, we have district court judges or retired court judges. The last time I knew or thought about it, I was aware a barrister or solicitor of the High Court was unlikely to be a practising veterinarian. I would like the member to get on to the facts of this legislation and not mislead the people who may be listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022167f5a6b832e4d9c8a79cc0e2dfaeebc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022167f5a6b832e4d9c8a79cc0e2dfaeebc\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I want to raise two points. First, my colleague raised a point of order with you. The Minister rose and, speaking to the point of order, basically started a 5-minute speech. I ask you to try to rule on that first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022141918dcafcc4e4d9da879daa3f7185c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member want me to deal with it as he goes along?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227462a73994a04bedbcf53370c05cb591\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: In a short while, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272092bdf64fa4a6cba65206ef5f93bf1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: What is the other part?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275cf09bf43c14a6f8ee25d3fa3d68a70\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The other part of the point of order was that I was accused of misleading the Committee. I think that is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252d489eb0c6c455aaaee9dcaf5fbead0\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Misleading the people who are listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df65820842c6401788792ee4aa03e32e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank both of you for raising that, whatever it was. I think the point of order was wrongly raised in the first place. I took it that the Minister was simply making those references by way of comparison. I thought they were relevant. I thought that much of the other stuff that has been said was irrelevant. We will move on. The Minister has had his say; does anyone else wish to speak?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb527ec78b6c484fa6bc9859b65742e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb527ec78b6c484fa6bc9859b65742e4\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 3 and to offer sympathy to Tau Henare about Gee. I am still not sure whether Gee got run over by the vet or the boy racer, but Gee needed protection. He needed protection and justice, and Part 3 goes some way towards ensuring that he would have got that justice. Part 3, as we all know, relates to complaints, disciplinary hearings, medical and competence assessments, and conditions of practice. Whilst I am not a practising veterinarian, I was a practicing barrister and solicitor so I suppose I am halfway there. We must have transparent and robust processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI go back to my original theme. My original stance was that this bill is all about protecting the brand. It is all about protecting the brand of the veterinarians. It is all about protecting the reputation of veterinarians, not just in New Zealand but also in overseas jurisdictions. We have an enviable record of wonderful veterinarians, and if we do not have the legislation to support that reputation, then it has only one way to go, and that is downwards. This bill is about maintaining the consistency of those standards. Part 3 goes some way towards putting in place the glue that holds those standards together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe all have pets. For some of us they are part of our families, although no doubt they do not qualify for the Working for Families beneficiary scheme. I actually think that is somewhat discriminatory for some, but, however, I will stick to the point, because I do believe in showing some relevance. The public and their pets must have confidence in their vets. That is the ultimate test. Do pets and the public have confidence in their vets? They must have confidence in the process and in the substance of the process. They must be confident that the mistakes\u2014and we have seen that people do make mistakes\u2014will be addressed; that the mistakes will not be denied; that the mistakes will not be forgotten, as happened 23 years ago; and that the mistakes will not be refuted. For example, if a cat or a dog has been bullied with a tennis ball by a vet, that vet must be held to account. This part goes some way towards addressing that. A vet cannot hide behind any so-called privilege of the House, because this process is intended to be open and transparent. It is not dissimilar to a court. We have rules of procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI am pleased to see that at least some cognisance has been taken of the ability of some legal assessors. For example, clause 31 allows for the appointment of a legal assessor who can advise the Veterinary Council on procedure and proceedings. That is a very important point in relation to the impartiality of the council, which, after all, is determining the fate of the pet, the pet\u2019s owner, or the pet\u2019s vet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200c1391dc80343bc94effa968a91bee1\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Will the vet leak the results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd206d701e3143d392a4e01f5ae08d2a\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is open and transparent. I understand that it is open to the public, so the public can listen to the results. However, it might have been the pet that was doing the leaking. [Interruption] Oh, sorry!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EHaving said that, and moving on, I am pleased to point out that there is legal provision for an assessor to make sure that rules and procedures are put in place, to make sure that they are unbiased, to make sure that they are impartial, and to make sure that justice is at least seen to be done, that there is some sense of natural justice in the whole process. It is important that the vet is protected as much as the pet owner, because at the end of the day that is part of our principle of natural justice. This part goes some way towards protecting that rule of natural justice. That rule includes the right to a fair hearing. I am pleased to see that some procedures and rules will be in place to ensure that vets cannot be unilaterally charged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022601bac4ceaf74a3babc067aa5b22c5e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022601bac4ceaf74a3babc067aa5b22c5e6\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 3, particularly in relation to complaints, disciplinary hearings, medical competence assessments, and conditions of practice. The point I would particularly like to make tonight concerns the interpretation of a \u201Cspecified person\u201D. I ask the Minister to take a call on this point, particularly in relation to clause 30AA and clause 33. The point I have risen to speak about is the definition of a specified person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EClause 30AA(a) states that a specified person \u201Cmeans a veterinarian or a person who was a veterinarian at the time of the relevant conduct;\u201D. That is pretty clear; I do not have a problem with that. Subclause (b) states: \u201Cunless the context otherwise requires, includes\u2014(i) a registered person: (ii) a registered person whose registration is suspended: (iii) a person who was registered at the time of the relevant conduct.\u201D That defines the person as a vet, but it does not define whether the acts that were committed have anything to do with whether the person was working as a vet, which is a very important point. I will tell members why that is a very important point, and the Minister may like to take a call to indicate whether further definition is needed in the interpretation of \u201Cspecified person\u201D to clarify the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EUnder clause 33 someone can raise complaints about a veterinarian or a specified person. Clause 33(1) states that any person may make a written\u2014tuhituhi\u2014complaint to the council about the conduct of a veterinarian or a specified person. That raises the question about what type of complaint can be made. Does it have to be a complaint about the role of a vet when working as a vet, or can it be outside his or her capacity as a vet? Does it mean that a person may decide to make a complaint because, for example, he or she drives past a vet who is speeding to the pub? There may be some other examples that members of the Committee can give me tonight, to help me. A number of things may raise the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b33b2761bfd644d7a09d6c363234dc8a\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: Foul language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d25eb71d41d4b2b80f7a0d6824fdafd\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps someone may walk into a veterinarian\u2019s surgery and hear some foul language used. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266149515ae1349478ae7a5e8da7f02fb\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223670c47fdbbe4f94aa1e50e90bdbe71a\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is not good. Perhaps playing bad tennis could be an example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe point I really want to get to is: what would happen if a complaint was written because a male veterinary surgeon was sitting next to a child on an Air New Zealand or Qantas plane? He should not sit next to a child\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ef0859aa58e403fa179c9b397b86431\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: Because there could be a complaint.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2784f3e707d4379b9f2fcb908b57cf0\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. That is the point I make. Could someone make a written complaint about a male veterinarian because he is sitting next to a child?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E I want to add a point to that, because it shocks me entirely. The leadership of this Government has not come out and said something strongly about the male roles in the community and the fact that a man should be able to sit next to a child. The Government should be able to say exactly where it stands on that issue. Men are being pushed into a section of the community where they cannot be trusted with children any longer, and, frankly, that is not good enough. Men are fathers. They deserve to be able to sit next to children on aeroplanes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ELet us go back to Part 3 and imagine that a male vet was sitting next to a child on a aeroplane, and that somebody has decided to write a complaint to the veterinarians complaints authority about the fact that he was sitting next to a child on an Air New Zealand flight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca9a25f9d1cd4704ae85e32554bae2c0\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: With a tennis ball.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc3b7ac52b24481856d1d2ef2b1d232\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: That would not be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ESo I come back to the question I talked about. It is a serious question, and I ask the Minister to take a call on it. It is about the definition of when the complaint can be made. Can a complaint be made in a veterinary situation or can it be made outside a veterinary situation? I think we need to go back to the interpretation clause and clarify that. Fortunately, the process is stopped early in the piece, as clause 35(2) states: \u201CHowever, if at any time after receiving a complaint \u2026\u2019. That is where the confusion is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u002239d4d197c7ea4ad29cf8157dcead3626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239d4d197c7ea4ad29cf8157dcead3626\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 3, \u201CComplaints, disciplinary hearings, medical and competence assessments, and conditions of practice\u201D. I do so because this is a very important part of the bill. Why so? Well, we know that about half of the submissions before the Primary Production Committee were from worried pet owners. Why would there be worried pet owners? Because pet owners are second only to parents in terms of protecting the vulnerable\u2014children and pets. That is why we have emotive pleas from pet owners and emotive pleas from parents that we look after their interests. That is why there is a provision that deals with complaints, disciplinary hearings, medical and competence assessments, and conditions of practice. We have this part of the bill because those things are important if we are to protect pets as we would children. They are very vulnerable members of our families, our wh\u0101nau, and that is why Part 3 has 34 pages\u201434 of the total of 91 pages. It is very, very significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EMy learned colleagues who are members of the Primary Production Committee that considered this bill have given us excellent insight into the deliberations of the select committee, and I make no apologies for repeating my former theme. A large number of amendments were proposed by the select committee; a large number of paragraphs were struck out and new paragraphs put in\u2014unanimously, of course. They represent the very hard work that the select committee did to achieve a balance between the interests of the veterinarians and the interests of the pet owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI am speaking to Part 3 because I am a pet owner, so I understand. My pet, Hogan, a cat, is reaching a stage, at 18 years of age, when he is a very, very old pet. Of course I am concerned, because before too much longer he will be visiting my friendly vet. I spoke to my vet today, and he really encourages us to get this bill through the House before Christmas because it is very important for him. One day, before too much longer, Hogan will be visiting the vet, and it will be for the last time. I want to make sure there is a process in place should I want to make a complaint about the vet\u2014but I doubt I ever would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI want to refer to an earlier question asked by a colleague of mine about what the \u201Cthings\u201D might be in clause 32. I have an idea of what the \u201Cthings\u201D might be, for I know that my vet stores the dead pets in the freezer. I think the \u201Cthings\u201D might be the dead pets in the freezer awaiting repatriation to their owners, their wh\u0101nau, their family. They may be the \u201Cthings\u201D. I propose that this is perhaps an answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI do feel very passionately about this part, because it is about protection for pets such as Hogan, our 18-year-old cat, who may soon be shuffling off this mortal coil, or kicking the bucket, or going to the great cattery in the sky. I, like other owners\u2014like the owners of Bianca Parker-Green, the cockatoo\u2014feel very, very strongly about the protection of my pets. But as someone who has had a profession and is married to a professional, I understand that there needs to be a balance between the rights of the vets and the rights of the pets and the pets\u2019 owners. My learned colleague mentioned natural justice, and Part 3 is the part of the bill that sets it all out so that we understand how these processes should take place. I remind members that Mr Heatley warned the vets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EWe know that the members of the select committee balanced both sides and came up with the many amendments. The original bill was a mess because the previous Minister of Agriculture had not consulted the sector groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4916a064e7e4199a4bb9ddd0bb72fe9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4916a064e7e4199a4bb9ddd0bb72fe9\u0022\u003ETAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Labour\u2014Mangere):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002215382ec277ca4fefa25dedb88ec5bb7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215382ec277ca4fefa25dedb88ec5bb7f\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I too rise to speak to Part 3, \u201CComplaints, disciplinary hearings, medical and competence assessments, and conditions of practice\u201D. While I have every sympathy for others, I can share my own story of a pet who is now departed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284cc8a3f35d5479baa534ee06fe24831\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no. Who\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ce9afb9f9be4a8dabdfdcd77e709640\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Sally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383808ca46054095a8325760f906885b\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: What was Sally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace085d35c1d49b9ac4de05e1fdfc670\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Sally was a dear pet of ours. She was a Jack Russell terrier, a faithful family pet. Do members know what her favourite game was?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fe39755c9514f1491b8d8622ec7bd1b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adcc3540a54244e484a34fbda6bc894a\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: We would chuck a tennis ball, and the dear little thing would chase after it. My goodness, we loved that little dog. She would catch it in her mouth, the sweetheart. Her little teeth would pierce the tennis ball, but that would not make her stop. She would continue to try to stuff it in her little mouth. She would get about half of it in, and then, burdened by that tennis ball\u2014because she was only a wee Jack Russell with little legs\u2014she would make her way back to us. It was so cute. [Interruption] No, we did not tape her paws. It looked like we taped her paws, because she was just a wee dog. This poor wee dog Sally whom we loved very dearly one day developed a fatal attraction to State Highway 1. It was very sad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247046dc8d4b34a66b1aee298d9e1ea6d\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t tell me it was the motorcade! Helen Clark again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225497616cc64542caac719eb0fa7fa1e2\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: There was a swish of air. The vehicle was going so fast that I saw just a figure in the back seat reading, so I do not know who it was. But it was a very sad moment for our family. We picked Sally up off State Highway 1 and took her inside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ad65b02e9674f2bbe8c67c9563ad844\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Healed her up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e9b85763be40658d36150564f786e9\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: I wish we could have. We had to take her to the vet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964c3ff13bd74783b01c17895b8c041e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am just curious to know what clause or clauses this matter is relevant to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d52ca759de94b0abe84384c1ac69685\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: I am addressing Part 3, because the point of the story is that Sally died. We left her with the vet, we went home, and we then had a phone call to say that Sally had died that night in the hands of the vet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022970dcf588516440e801e27151eaa03e9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eee8a4862204ec0b5d11170bdfc9075\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: It was very important to us to know that Sally had been looked after, because we have two children who cared about that dog very much. OK, I jest, but I think it is very important that, if we had not felt that Sally had been in good hands, we would have had recourse. Had we needed to make a complaint against the vet, we as a family needed to know we had good recourse. I believe that there needs to be protection not only for ourselves as pet owners but also, equally, for the vet who has been delivered this poor little creature with a tennis ball in its mouth and on its last legs. It is very important that both sides have protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill is not only about pets\u2014and I know that members in this room are feeling a bit bruised because of all the sad stories. It is also about farm animals. In fact, I am a farmer. I have 10 heifers on our property. I need to tell members\u2014and this does have a point, Mr Chairperson\u2014[Interruption] The member is right; there is a bit of bull involved in this story. My dear husband rang me last night to say: \u201CA terrible thing has happened, my love.\u201D I said: \u201CWhat, my darling?\u201D. He said: \u201CYou know those 10 2-year-old heifers we have down in the paddock?\u201D, and I said: \u201CYes, darling.\u201D He said: \u201CGuess what, the neighbour\u2019s bulls have hopped the fence. Worse than that, those neighbouring bulls have had their way with our tender little heifers.\u201D So we were faced with a genuine farming emergency, as members with an agricultural background will know\u2014and the National Party is blessed with many members with an agricultural background.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022476e3fd2528447f09ba7e50994b0df4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022476e3fd2528447f09ba7e50994b0df4c\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 32 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the word \u201Ccounsel\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Ca justice of the peace\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002261e57a321a6541488b49ab16526e9cc9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000814\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 32 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000815\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the word \u201Ccounsel\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Can officer of the court\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e0247393e90d47aca117decb58ff082c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000816\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 32 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000817\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the word \u201Ccounsel\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cbarrister and solicitor\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d8445a75f71b46d3bb6a3619efb6d5d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000818\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 32 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000819\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the word \u201Ccounsel\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Clawyer\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b6fe6c6a2904f609f6d6e4ad68a8417\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000820\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 33 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000821\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (2), after the word \u201Ccomplaint\u201D, the words \u201Cbut within 1 working day\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022729e6fa996264cb1b1bb8c1b51f11acb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000822\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 33 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000823\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (2), after the word \u201Ccomplaint\u201D, the words \u201Cbut within 2 working days\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002269b0059d168c4153b839501388ca84fa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000824\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 33 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000825\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (2), after the word \u201Ccomplaint\u201D, the words \u201Cbut within 3 working days\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e681cb1b2c4645e18ab49a8d8bbf115d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000826\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 33 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000827\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (2), after the word \u201Ccomplaint\u201D, the words \u201Cbut within 4 working days\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a84bc6870baa41ea9f4ccf0d3b3caa64\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000828\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 33 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000829\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (2), after the word \u201Ccomplaint\u201D, the words \u201Cbut within 5 working days\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f9b6d5aceee7436c94857e4854f45bc0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000830\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 34 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000831\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of subclause (1) the word \u201Cinquiries\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Caudit\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227fd11c15da354575b61b86bc886724cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000832\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 34 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000833\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of subclause (1) the word \u201Cinquiries\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Cexaminations\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229643189a73a1487c842eb4f8ab1d3179\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000834\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 34 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000835\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of subclause (1) the word \u201Cinquiries\u201D and substitute the word \u201Cprobings\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c845375f4bc451b9b2c66ea3560f5bb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 5; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000836\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 34 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000837\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of subclause (1) the word \u201Cinquiries\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Cinvestigations\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002287340657578e45cca6ad3e978c4775d8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000838\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 35 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000839\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the word \u201Cinquiries\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Caudits\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002264dadcb113d24454a9e397f18ba1bda0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000840\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 35 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000841\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the word \u201Cinquiries\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Cexaminations\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a444c62295b04d02aac016bfa1b36f82\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000842\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 35 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000843\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the word \u201Cinquiries\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Cassessments\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002240a5f424f205406bbfb39d6d9209857f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000844\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 35 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000845\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the word \u201Cinquiries\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Cinvestigations\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002219954cd275454e589d12861c7bfb8dc3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000846\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 37A be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000847\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the number \u201C50\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C51\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e05197b56d484114b582706496b65986\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000848\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 37A be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000849\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the number \u201C50\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C52\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b513d4b0f0d4c759f512fd77677117f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000850\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 37A be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000851\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the number \u201C50\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C53\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002202719eaeb0934965a7800f440c77b6e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000852\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 37A be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000853\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the number \u201C50\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C54\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222bfffd90d1cd42d88e98facd7239da01\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000854\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 37A be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000855\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the number \u201C50\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C55\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002265668971b8e0488c9fc4488d285aa519\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000856\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 37A be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000857\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (5) the number \u201C50\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C56\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271fc4cb39bdc437c992fd68a81aec0f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000858\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000859\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1), after the word \u201Cnotice\u201D, the words \u201Cand fax, and telephone\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e8a031fa22c74c909459e4aada7702c2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000860\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000861\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1), after the word \u201Cnotice\u201D, the words \u201Cand registered mail, and fax\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002224a3022523094b2d99074ab5496af4e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000862\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000863\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1), after the word \u201Cnotice\u201D, the words \u201Cand fax, and telephone, and registered mail\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229176eaedb22b4738abf6556288ab2ca4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000864\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000865\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1), after the word \u201Cnotice\u201D, the words \u201Cand telephone\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221fb89ca16175487fa777649dea3f9dab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000866\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000867\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1), after the word \u201Cnotice\u201D, the words \u201Cand fax\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca4d11805e714f46a3331801a2264847\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000868\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000869\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (1), after the word \u201Cnotice\u201D, the words \u201Cand email\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002270391aa1d1734af0842f2193c63bb229\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000870\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000871\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (c) of subclause (2) the number \u201C20\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C21\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226732fb1b8dda4f13a34394c833955fb2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000872\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000873\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (c) of subclause (2) the number \u201C20\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C22\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022330d13cd066b475ebf65c33989bdd274\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000874\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000875\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (c) of subclause (2) the number \u201C20\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C23\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220f64832ec4024c0581c196b73ec5cf47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000876\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000877\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (c) of subclause (2) the number \u201C20\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C24\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a8fe09965894f00b0d9bfe8ff10f146\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000878\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 40 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000879\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (c) of subclause (2) the number \u201C20\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C25\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222af67483037042689f545107f2b98e4a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000880\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 44 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000881\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (ii) of subclause (1)(f) the amount \u201C$10,000\u201D, and substitute the amount \u201C$11,000\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220c0e80d841454a90acba7a22eed1903c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000882\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 44 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000883\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (ii) of subclause (1)(f) the amount \u201C$10,000\u201D, and substitute the amount \u201C$12,000\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e1ea1b78227c4c14b3c331770892e766\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000884\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 44 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000885\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (ii) of subclause (1)(f) the amount \u201C$10,000\u201D, and substitute the amount \u201C$13,000\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e6330eb576754339b908972b5a37f07a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000886\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 44 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000887\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (ii) of subclause (1)(f) the amount \u201C$10,000\u201D and substitute the amount \u201C$14,000\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022077a0026370d46139ccaa3ff47141f87\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000888\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 44 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000889\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (i) of subclause (1)(f) the amount \u201C$30,000\u201D and substitute the amount \u201C$31,000\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002299dd1266a401417aa2fff59dfba64b0c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000890\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 44 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000891\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (i) of subclause (1)(f) the amount \u201C$30,000\u201D, and substitute the amount \u201C$32,000\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf136c7787e6463bb425efceb85d6bb6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000892\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 44 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000893\u0022\u003Eto omit from subparagraph (i) of subclause (1)(f) the amount \u201C$30,000\u201D, and substitute the amount \u201C$33,000\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bb8efd2e6644456fb5acfa4330109914\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000894\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000895\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000896\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2a25e3f0ae449e3b70452ae9f261ac8\u0022\u003ENew Part 3A  Conditions of practice and appeals\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a45f2dac89d64bb18c0364a36df1ca22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a45f2dac89d64bb18c0364a36df1ca22\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3A, \u201CConditions of practice and appeals\u201D, of the Veterinarians Bill is indeed worthy of support. It causes me to reflect on the working conditions, as well as the imposed conditions, of veterinary practice. Just for a moment I would like to reflect on the working conditions of veterinarians, not so much nowadays but in the past decades, when vets built up the tremendous rapport with farmers that has given us the very successful pastoral industries we have today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI have been privileged to live in some parts of New Zealand that are really very rural. One such place was Hokianga, where my brothers and I had a dairy farm on Wharekawa Road at Oue. The vets that used to service the area were dedicated and did a terrific job, but the conditions of practice were not always the best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI recall hearing of one such event that occurred in the 1970s, when a vet received a phone call from an aggrieved client whose cow had just died after it had been treated by the vet. It was a sad situation. It was raining heavily at the time\u2014the rain was almost horizontal\u2014and it was about 10.30 at night. Those were rotten conditions to practise in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221837a39d10c843189c02a002c0462480\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: On the West Coast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3785f6dfa394a79a3e88edaff791d9b\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, this was in Hokianga in the far north\u2014the winterless north. But it was very wet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c1870986b7a49fa841713209caa26a9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It was warm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224df2733ee074746a919c60d6da0bf50\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: It was warm and wet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe farmer suggested that there were two things they could do. One was for the vet to accept the farmer\u2019s diagnosis of the death. The cow, shortly after the treatment, had been seen fighting with another cow, and the farmer considered that the lunging thrust of the aggressive cow\u2019s horns had twisted the calf inside the cow, which had caused the blood vessels to choke off from the heart, leading to the cow\u2019s demise. That was the farmer\u2019s interpretation and, in the view of the farmer, it had sustained the cow\u2019s death. The vet was told that the alternative was to come out straight away and perform what the farmer called a \u201Cpostal mortem\u201D. The vet, however, had no difficulty in agreeing with the farmer\u2019s diagnosis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI recall another such event, in terms of the conditions that vets had to practise under, when the same vet\u2014a good Scots-trained practitioner\u2014was asked to assist a cow calving at Taheke. It was another foul night, and the rain was similarly horizontal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060997a710c740a29a740932c34bab1e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: On the West Coast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d2ba83687244fecb8fd83e368000439\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, still up in Hokianga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adf12e9a94304a87b2ab4882a261b52e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The winterless north?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c5057ef7e94402e882eb0a95d3aa299\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was winter and the rain was warm, but it was raining. The vet said he would get on his way, as he imagined the creek was coming up. The farmer said that yes, it was, and that the cow was in fact in the creek and having difficulty calving. The farmer thought that the cow probably had a broken leg. \u201CGracious,\u201D said the vet, \u201Cshe is in the creek, she is having difficulty calving, and you think she has a broken leg? I\u2019ll get there as soon as I can.\u201D \u201CNo rush,\u201D said the farmer, \u201CI think she\u2019s quite comfortable.\u201D Those were the conditions that vets had to practise in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe life of a vet was not without difficulty, even in a domestic sense, although often the difficulty came from absence rather than presence. I remember another occasion in Kait\u0101ia, in the winterless far north\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215f9ac3033f846de88076a5f9c7122a4\u0022\u003ETaito Phillip Field\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d95e64147e47b5b5ce15d0ba49c445\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: There is to be no comment at all during a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca0d400cf32413eb867bc753456dc56\u0022\u003ETaito Phillip Field\u003C/span\u003E: That sounded like a very nice story for children at night, but I ask the member to be more relevant to the part we are debating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200bc80beeac343cdbcf44a6ad7f411f3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his contribution. I ask the member to continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221321e73e62ff44de8d538319360548c2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What was the ruling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f875fa859bcc465ca388a9f5995e69cc\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: The ruling was to please continue. Indeed, on that occasion, the vet was away and he had to engage a locum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EOn occasions when the normal veterinary practice has changed, systems have changed, and farmers get confused, we need some quite specific conditions that apply to the practice of veterinary-trained people. We need the sorts of conditions that are specified in Part 3A. In looking at the conditions of practice and appeals, we could start with the proposed new clause 55A and go through the clauses in a precise manner, looking at each one. But, in reality, National supports this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002283190551486c49ac86f7cc80d99be6b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283190551486c49ac86f7cc80d99be6b7\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise not to join in the pitiful filibuster of the National Party. In the extremely unlikely event that anybody is listening to Parliament tonight, I just want to assure listeners that what they have been hearing is the National Party\u2019s attempt at a filibuster. That term was invented in America to refer to parties that try endlessly to delay a Parliament. Is this what the National Party members are reduced to\u2014talking about pets and filibustering? Is this how they think they will throw their weight around Parliament and impress listeners? I can tell those members that all this will do is turn people off and turn off the voters, because it is a complete waste of Parliament\u2019s time. We have heard a lot about pets tonight, but what about the other animals in New Zealand that veterinarians care for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis part of the bill is all about the conditions of practice of veterinarians, but what about the conditions of the millions of farm animals in New Zealand that live in conditions of utter cruelty? Millions of hens live in cages where they have only a very tiny area in which to turn round. There are millions of hens in New Zealand that are fed antibiotics continuously. If veterinarians were concerned about the conditions that hens in this country live in, those cruel conditions would end tomorrow. Of course, there is one other person\u2014who happens to be in this room\u2014who could bring to an end the cruel conditions that hens, and pigs in sow crates, have to endure in New Zealand. That person is the Minister of Agriculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut since we are talking about veterinarians we need to think about, for example, the millions of chickens that endure terrible conditions\u2014up to 40,000 of them are crammed into sheds\u2014and are fed antibiotics continuously for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. We know that the continuous feeding of low doses of antibiotics to millions of animals that are not even sick will cause antibiotic resistance\u2014and it is doing so. Fifty percent of the chicken flocks in New Zealand have been found to carry antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Now, why is that practice taking place? Who is dispensing the antibiotics? Who is prescribing antibiotics to millions of chickens in New Zealand, continuously, in low doses, for their breakfast, their lunch, and their dinner? It is the veterinarians who are writing out the prescriptions for the continuous feeding of antibiotics, even though they know, as every member of this Parliament knows, that that practice is causing antibiotic resistance. It is putting the future health of New Zealanders at risk. The Minister of Agriculture is laughing, but he will not be laughing when antibiotic resistance develops to such an extent that we are not able to treat basic diseases in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, it is the veterinarians of this country who are not only filling out the prescriptions to enable these appalling, shameful practices to take place but who are not speaking out. If veterinarians were to say that it is cruel to keep hens in cages where they cannot turn round or even stretch their wings, then I am sure that that practice would be eliminated\u2014even if this Parliament is so spineless and so pathetic that it will do nothing to end the suffering of the millions of animals that are enduring horrendous conditions every single day, even as we speak. Even as we speak, there are pigs in sow crates that cannot even turn round and are driven to despair. There are also hens in cages, and all those animals are there because veterinarians are tolerating the practice and turning a blind eye to it\u2014and, of course, the Minister of Agriculture, who is laughing, is allowing that practice to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u002244daaad73dd647889236dfa5d1402a47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244daaad73dd647889236dfa5d1402a47\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of new Part 3A, \u201CConditions of practice and appeals\u201D. It is part of today\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 8, which is amending the Veterinarians Bill reported by the Primary Production Committee. I think that committee has done a commendable and very thorough job. I have been reading through the bill, and in particular Part 3, \u201CComplaints, disciplinary hearings, medical and competence assessments, and conditions of practice\u201D, and of course the Supplementary Order Paper amendments to insert new Part 3A, \u201CConditions of practice and appeals\u201D, which is very thorough. I have been really impressed that the provisions are so similar to those of the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act. Members may know that I am a medical doctor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f49cf86eb2374764aa9838660da68960\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: We knew that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed5117e7d3c34644a7dfee3302b06f59\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I would like to recount two stories about my life as a medical student, which have relevance to new Part 3A. They are two stories that impressed me, and that I remember very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIn the 1970s I was a medical student at various Auckland hospitals. It was before the Cartwright inquiry; we did not have the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act and we did not have a process for obtaining informed consent. The first story happened when I was a student at Green Lane Hospital\u2014as I say, before the Cartwright inquiry. As students, we were asked to perform vaginal examinations, as part of our gaining experience and so forth, but we did not have any informed consent process for those women patients. The examinations were done under anaesthetic; the patients were unaware of those vaginal examinations done by students. It felt vaguely wrong but none of us spoke out, I am ashamed to say. Then of course we had the Cartwright inquiry, and that dragged all the doctors, kicking and screaming, into the position where we had to have informed consent and respect patient rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EA second episode that also struck me was when I was a student at Auckland Hospital\u2019s sexually transmitted diseases clinic. A male patient was brought in. He was not asked if he would allow students to be with the doctor. He was asked to strip, and was then examined with all those students around. He was embarrassed, I was embarrassed, but nobody spoke up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003ENow, some 30 years later, we do have the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act, and now we have the Veterinarians Bill, which is being amended. I endorse the position of veterinarians in supporting this bill. It a good to have something that is transparent and robust. I will read from the March 2005 news brief of the Veterinary Council of New Zealand. The council supports this change in the complaints process, and I would like to read a short section: \u201CThe Bill allows the council to require a competency assessment of a veterinarian to ensure that the veterinarian is meeting the minimum standards for continuing practice.\u201D That is just like the provision of the medical Act\u2014the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act\u2014and I endorse it absolutely. The change is necessary. We have seen that important change come over the medical fraternity during the last 30 years, and it is natural that it would follow into the veterinary world as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI also agree with Sue Kedgley in her comments regarding the welfare of animals around New Zealand. The difference between humans and animals is that humans have the means to complain but animals do not. So people need to complain for them, or there needs to be some sort of transparent process for their welfare. That is why I thoroughly endorse the Veterinarians Bill, particularly new Part 3A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e50687f3306442a4915e09995f9b0554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e50687f3306442a4915e09995f9b0554\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I will continue with a consideration of Part 3A, \u201CConditions of practice and appeals\u2019. I would like to raise a matter with the Committee as it sits and deliberates on this bill\u2014the matter of when the conditions of practice and appeals are removed. Members will recall that those conditions of practice are all about the Veterinary Council imposing conditions on specific people: how they might practice and whether there are any guidelines as to where they can practise, and particular disciplines within veterinary medicine they are restricted to and other areas they are restricted from. A restriction might come about through a recommendation by a complaints assessment committee, or it might be a result of a disciplinary hearing or a medical competency assessment. It could come about through all manner of means. It could be some sort of limited discretion or registration provision for a vet, perhaps a vet newly out of vet school who is able to practice only in a particular area for a time, before he or she gains competence and moves on. That is what this part is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E My concern is simply this: when we move to new clause 55C, we see that it discusses when the Veterinary Council may cease to apply the restrictions. So there are conditions around a particular vet practising, for all the reasons I have just outlined, and the council may move to remove those restrictions. It can do that on the earliest of the following dates, as stated in new clause 55C(1): \u201C(a) the date stated in the relevant notice under section 55B(1): (b) the date on which the Council is satisfied that the specified person has completed, in relation to the condition, the requirement or requirements stated in the relevant notice under section 55B(1): (c) the date on which the Council is satisfied that the specified person is able to comply with the relevant minimum standards of practice without the imposition of the condition.\u201D So, in all cases, the council can remove the imposition on that particular vet. My concern is simply this\u2014and members will guess what I am about to ask; everyone is leaning forward because they can all guess\u2014how often does the council\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225f0f89f0ad498cb9e046f5e1bec6a8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e0b1bcc0fd4bfaad75214b262c8a99\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014meet? Well, how often does the council meet? The reality is that the members of that council are dispersed throughout the country. They come together from time to time to release these vets out into the workforce and to remove restrictions on them. They might meet in November, but then might not meet in December; they are not like the National Party, which is working right to the wire. They might not meet in January. They are not like National Party members, who will be out there right throughout January, door-knocking and seeing what the people want. People might see me on the beaches, but I will not be sunbathing. I will be out there talking to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022779d21f88be94abdb475b9a09154ec76\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: You are tempting me now!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296d21ab9c24e43459bd7acdb15d42b69\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I will see Georgina Beyer in her bikini on the beaches of the Wairarapa, but I will be working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EBut the Veterinary Council might not meet in December, and it might not meet in January. We would hope that it would convene in February, but the point is simply this: if a veterinary practitioner wants to be released from the restrictions around him or her because he or she has proved competency, and if this council, which meets in the first week of the month, meets in November and the application falls past that time, the vet has to wait all through November, December, and January. That is 3 months before the decision is made. I think that that is quite appalling. I believe that there should be a change made in this legislation to make sure\u2014[Interruption] The member Rick Barker, who is heckling, is busy in Wellington because he has no electorate to service any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u002275dafe1b0b06420facbef6ac1c601085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275dafe1b0b06420facbef6ac1c601085\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I follow another worthy contribution from my learned colleague Phil Heatley, one of the members of the Primary Production Committee who has worked slavishly on this bill to make it what it is today. I think the pet owners and veterinarians of this country can be very thankful that we have members on that committee of the merit of that member and of my colleague David Carter, who sat on that committee, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI have learnt something new tonight as a result of reading Supplementary Order Paper 8, which inserts a new Part 3A. It is that when bills become Acts\u2014get the royal assent\u2014all the numbering can change. One of the concerns I had when looking at this Supplementary Order Paper was that it states that \u201Cclauses 46 to 47A (line 20 on page 50 to line 26 on page 54)\u201D are to be omitted. That may sound very technical, and mean very little to listeners at home, but basically it takes out all the provisions between and including clauses 46 and 47A. When I looked at the whole bill, I thought: \u201CHang on a minute. Clause 45 then will jump to clause 48. What happens to the numbering?\u201D. So I went and had a chat with the Minister in the chair, Jim Anderton, and with his agreement I had a chat with the officials. I was not aware that sometimes when we make changes in Committee, when we take out chunks, paste them, and move them round the place, we mess up the numbering, and it is not until the very last part of the process that all the numbers change. Doing that can have quite an impact, because bills that go through the House that undergo huge, strong debate are often referred to by clause numbers, and that numbering can change quite late in the piece. That was certainly of personal interest to me to learn, after having been here some 6 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to hear Sue Kedgley chat about the contributions made by the National Party, then talk about all and sundry issues, such as sow crates and antibiotics in chickens. That makes me wonder what the relevance of some of those issues is to this bill, because this bill sets in place a structure so that veterinarians can go through their registration, be processed, and practise in this country, be they veterinarians from New Zealand or ones who have come into the country. Then, in the event that things go wrong and a complaint is made against them, there are quite straightforward procedures about how those complaints are handled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIf we look at the new Part 3A, we get into a discussion about what happens after a decision from the complaints assessment committee is made, and here we have quite detailed provisions about what happens to people who have had a judgment made against them. In reading these provisions I find myself becoming a bit confused, because someone who has had a judgment made against him or her can still practise, but only under specified conditions, in specified practices, and doing specified work. It seems to me that this level of detail is probably best not put into a bill like this one, but left for perhaps the Veterinary Council to make its own regulations and rules about how it deals with vets whom complaints have been made about. It ends up being quite confusing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI am wondering\u2014and I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s view on this\u2014whether part of this Supplementary Order Paper really relates to overseas vets who come into the country and have qualifications that do not necessarily marry up with the qualifications that New Zealand vets hold. They might have a qualification that forms part of a New Zealand vet\u2019s qualification, but does not quite match the full qualification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5e62ce78c1a4f43b2f34e6a1e39bab6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5e62ce78c1a4f43b2f34e6a1e39bab6\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to new Part 3A, \u201CConditions of practice and appeals\u201D, specifically. I was very interested to hear the comments made by Sue Kedgley earlier on and, although I believe that Ms Rich may have been a bit hard on Sue Kedgley, I found what Sue Kedgley had to say about battery hens incredibly interesting. I know a bit about battery hens because I have rescued a few in my time. I have kept hens for years, and I know all the benefits of looking after them. In that time I have done a bit of research on battery hens. Although people may think it was inappropriate that I was looking to rescue battery hens from their little cages, it is disgusting to go to visit those places where they are lined up in their little cells. As they peep out between the little bars, they are stacked up, three-high, on top of piles of excrement, which absolutely stinks to high heaven. They get their little bit of shot of water that they can nibble at, and they have their beaks clipped to stop them pecking at the others, and their feathers are ripped out by those they are sharing the cage with. They have their little allocation of food. The light is manipulated, so they think it is daytime when it is actually night-time. That is their lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EA battery hen can crank out 270 eggs a year, or about one every 26 hours if it is kept in that manipulated state. So I took it upon myself\u2014as someone who wanted to have his little slice of the good life on his quarter acre\u2014to go and buy some of those hens. They were cheap\u2014no pun intended. They were only $1.50 each, and I got six of them to take home. Some of them were so knackered that they just sat on the ground. They could not even stand, because they had been kept in those squalid conditions for so long. But after a little while, they started to dig around in the wood shavings that I had prepared for them, they had food they could help themselves to, and they were given clean water. As a result of reading an exquisite tome called The New Complete Book of Self-Sufficiency by John Seymour, I introduced a rooster. All those hens discovered a whole new pastime in the hen house. [Interruption] That member did his apprenticeship for this House by sharpening pencils for MPs. Some of us have knocked around for quite a while and we know a bit about hens and chickens. We know the difference anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWhat happened was that those chickens, once they were allowed to scratch around in the dirt, have a bit of a dust-bath to keep the mites away, and have a bit of fun with the old rooster\u2014which I am sure Mr Hughes knows all about, coming from Horowhenua\u2014they found that they did not lay quite as many eggs, but they had a helluva lot more fun. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt struck me while I was listening to Ms Kedgley that it is very much like those people who vote Green and Labour. They never knew what they were missing when they were stuck in their little cage. They never knew, because their environment was so totally controlled. They had their little squirt of water, their little shot of pellets, their little shot of whatever it is up the jacksie, like Ms Kedgley was talking about, and they laid to their full potential. They never knew what life held for them until they came to live in my little hen house. When they were given a bit of freedom, some wood shavings to scratch around in, and the old rooster now and then, they knew what life was really about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ESo those voters who have their environment manipulated, who get a little squirt every now and then, who have their lights turned on so they think that it is daytime when it is really night-time, trot off to the polling booth and cast their vote in the direction of Labour and the Greens. They are just like those battery hens. But those rescued battery hens\u2014a little bit like myself\u2014have come over to the right side. They have scratched around in the dust. They know a little bit about what life is like and they know a little bit about roosters. They know how much fun the old battery hen can have with a rooster. I tell the members that if those rescued battery hens could vote, they would be voting National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI am worried about some of the practices that this council is going to be able to dictate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca34192b296c45dbbbe489001e7612e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca34192b296c45dbbbe489001e7612e1\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank my learned colleague Mr Borrows for the lesson on battery hens and what to do and what not to do with them. I rise to speak to new Part 3A, and to bring some relevance to the debate, despite the assertions of non-relevance or irrelevance from my not-so-learned colleague from the Greens. I rise to put some relevance back into this debate, and to talk about the conditions of practice. I know that it might come as a surprise to members that I might actually address the question, but so be it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI wonder whether sometimes it is the chicken before the egg or the egg before the chicken, because we are talking about the Veterinary Council having somewhat impressive, albeit discretionary, powers. Whenever any body has discretionary and impressive powers, one has to look at the body itself\u2014in other words, the council. If we look at the composition of the council\u2014and I know that this is in the next part of the bill, but it is relevant in terms of who has the authority to impose those conditions\u2014it can be seen that the council includes two laypersons, one veterinarian appointed by the Minister, and an academic. I wonder whether that is entirely appropriate when we are setting the standards, in advance, for a profession that is obviously concerned about protecting its brand and its reputation, and maintaining the consistency of those standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI wonder whether the Minister has brought that to mind, as to the composition of the council, when imposing these conditions of practice, because these powers are impressive and they are subjective. There is always a danger with discretionary, subjective powers that there is a lack of certainty. When laws are uncertain they can lead to misunderstandings, and they can lead to their being regarded as bad law. The subjectivity, I think, is a concern. The conditions imposed must be only those that in the council\u2019s opinion are necessary. There is no objectivity in that test, there is no requirement whatsoever as to what is reasonable or what is not reasonable, and I do wonder as to the appropriateness of the total subjectivity of the test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMy having said that, some of the conditions that have been listed\u2014and, again, they are discretionary and not mandatory\u2014seem to reek somewhat of common sense, I must confess. It is not unusual for many professions, for example, to require continuing education as a condition, and, in fact, many professions require continuing education in any event as a prerequisite to having a practising certificate, and I speak on that in relation to chartered accountants. They have an extensive continuing education programme that ensures that their profession does indeed protect its brand, its reputation, and does maintain as far as possible consistency of standards. There are conditions that I think are sensible, and for those veterinarians who have been censured it is entirely appropriate that a condition of supervision may be applied. Obviously, there are also conditions that a specified person may not perform any work of a stated kind, and this gives some flexibility if, for example, there is a certain field of expertise with which that vet is not familiar. I think, again, there is some common sense there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMy major objection to new Part 3A is in relation to the notice. A condition in new clause 55B prescribes that the council must notify the person of any conditions of practice it has imposed. There is absolutely no notice requirement in this provision. It is almost like having the verdict before the trial, and I am concerned that the sense of fairness\u2014the sense of natural justice that pervades some of the rest of the bill, the sense of a right to be heard\u2014seems to be omitted from new clause 55B. In effect, there is no notice requirement whatsoever in relation to any conditions that the council may subjectively and unilaterally impose. I am concerned that could lead to serious injustices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002242ad83809edd4f83ab0301c977de42f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ad83809edd4f83ab0301c977de42f2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from the excellent contributions from National members of Parliament on new Part 3A, I want to raise a different point and to ask the Minister in the chair, Jim Anderton, for some answers. My concern is the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe bill went through the Primary Production Committee, was substantially rewritten with the help of parliamentary counsel, then came back to the House, and at that stage the committee, I think, had every right to assume that it had done a pretty good job. Then today Mr Anderton suddenly dumps Supplementary Order Paper 8 on the Table of the House. When I look through that Supplementary Order Paper I see that a good amount of it is technical and makes changes to drafting, and I accept that\u2014I want to make sure that when the legislation finally leaves the House it is as accurate as possible\u2014but the part that puzzles me, and I think it would only be fair that the Minister take a call and answer this question, is why the Minister has seen fit, subsequent to the select committee process, to remove clauses 46 to 47A from the bill as reported back, and put them entirely into a new part. If that is done as a matter of clarity, to give us better legislation, then I say to the Minister that that advice should have been given to the select committee at the time. I want the Minister to tell us why he has seen fit to present this substantial Supplementary Order Paper at the eleventh hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to raise with the Minister is in regard to the explanatory note of Supplementary Order Paper 8. The third bullet point states that the Supplementary Order Paper amends the Veterinarians Bill to \u201Crelocate the provisions of the Bill in relation to conditions of practice (from clauses 46 to 47A to new clauses 55A to 55C).\u201D The next words are important, and the Committee should note them: \u201CThere is no substantive amendments to these provisions.\u201D That is what the explanatory note states, and the Committee has every right to rely on it. But when I go through the Supplementary Order Paper and through clauses 46 to 47A in the bill, as I read it\u2014and I admit that we have been working on this for some time, and we will continue working on it over the next couple of days, so I may have missed something\u2014I do not find any change at all in the wording of the provisions on the Supplementary Order Paper. It seems to me that clauses 46 to 47A have been picked up in their entirety, put in new Part 3A, and denoted as clauses 55A to 55C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIf I am right, I am very suspicious of the wording of the explanatory note of Supplementary Order Paper 8: \u201CThere is no substantive amendments to these provisions.\u201D I see the Minister is seeking some advice; I would be very pleased to hear his explanation. I do not see any change; maybe there are some very small, minor changes\u2014maybe punctuation or a minor change of wording\u2014but we as the Committee need to know that. We become worried when explanatory notes of Supplementary Order Papers are inaccurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister to give us an explanation of those two points only. I am sure it will not take him long to do that. I reiterate the two points, so he is clear on why we want the answers. First, why, subsequent to the select committee process, has there been a substantial change in drafting format? I think that advice should have been given to the select committee at the time, by parliamentary counsel. I do not criticise the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officials; I enjoyed working with them and they did a great job. This is a drafting issue pertaining to parliamentary counsel. The second point is that I want to know whether there are any changes at all, or whether those clauses have just been picked up in their entirety, with no change, and put into the new part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00220cf781222c0c41e3bb8e044dc59adb68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cf781222c0c41e3bb8e044dc59adb68\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222b9342bf1e8d4fd89f0a3e72f1340683\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000959\u0022\u003E The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to proposed new Part 3A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000960\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (3) of proposed new clause 55A the number \u201C1\u201D, after the word \u201Cof\u201D and before the word \u201Cor\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C2\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eeba94f8490546caa67c3e441696e641\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000961\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to proposed new Part 3A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000962\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (3) of proposed new section 55A the number \u201C1\u201D, after the word \u201Cof\u201D and before the word \u201Cor\u201D, and clause the number \u201C3\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002260f8ceabace444fa8a5edcce9b2bffea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000963\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to proposed new Part 3A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000964\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (3) of proposed new clause 55A the number \u201C1\u201D, after the word \u201Cof\u201D and before the word \u201Cor\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C4\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022101527c7b3b64b4e934ac66a399e66d7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000965\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to proposed new Part 3A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000966\u0022\u003Eto insert in subclause (3)(j) of proposed new clause 55A the words \u201Cor tests\u201D, after the word \u201Cexaminations\u201D and before the word \u201Cor\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b79d4e2eeb104bcea0f2ba6472151bbe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000967\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Hon David Carter to clause 56(2) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000968\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of subclause (2) the words \u201C20 working days\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C25 working days\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002282dd58f1d44348b1be70a545b9187a3d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000969\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 8 in the name of Hon Jim Anderton to new Part 3A be agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000970\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000971\u0022\u003ENew Part 3A as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264e1def1581e4a74af52e597482e829d\u0022\u003EPart 4  Veterinary Council of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022893cdc7661d941a692088f9c215bfb2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022893cdc7661d941a692088f9c215bfb2c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: This includes debate on schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002241ce3e2efcfa466a94cbcb94025263d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241ce3e2efcfa466a94cbcb94025263d8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E We come to a part that is critical to the bill and, first, I take the opportunity of actually congratulating the Government. If we go through Part 4, we see that it is one of the few parts that did not have to be almost totally rewritten because of the incompetence of the previous Minister of Agriculture, Jim Sutton. We finally have a part that we can get through relatively unscathed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe clause I want to concentrate on in this contribution is, of course, clause 69, \u201CComposition of Council\u201D. Many people have taken the opportunity to talk about the vital role the council will have under this legislation. I take this opportunity to thank the current Veterinary Council for its role in helping us get this legislation right. It was invaluable and its advice was well received by the committee. It is a great pity that the previous Minister of Agriculture, the Hon Jim Sutton, totally ignored its advice prior to the drafting of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EClause 69 states that the council must have seven members. The council must have: (a) 3 veterinarians elected in accordance with regulations\u201D\u2014and I will talk about that in my second contribution\u2014\u201C(b) 2 laypersons appointed by the Minister by notice in the Gazette;\u201D and (c) 1 veterinarian appointed by the Minister by notice in the Gazette; and (d) the person for the time being responsible for the veterinary science academic programme at Massey University.\u201D Under clause 69 the person from Massey University is very easy to appoint. It should not be much trouble for the Minister. Then we move to the vet whom the Minister must appoint. I have a candidate I would like to suggest. It is the Hon Pete Hodgson, because he will be looking for a job in the very near future\u2014within the next 12 or 18 months when the Government falls to bits. The Minister ought to keep Pete Hodgson in mind as a possible appointment because he will certainly be looking for a job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EClause 69(b) requires two laypersons to be appointed by the Minister by notice in the Gazette. Again we have a nomination tonight\u2014Dame Ann Hercus. I believe that she is looking for a job. I believe that she has a little bit of additional time in her diary. She was a very valued member of the Television New Zealand board until a matter of hours ago. Surprisingly, after the examination of TVNZ at the Finance and Expenditure Committee today, she has created a bit of room in her diary. She has done the honourable thing and fallen on her sword\u2014because, of course, there has been a large number of leaks, but we will talk about the leaks later. She is an excellent candidate for consideration. So we have one candidate, and she will do a good job for the Minister. She will certainly report any matters that might be of embarrassment to the Minister. After all, she did a very good job reporting matters of embarrassment to the Minister of Broadcasting, so she has a track record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cc223808d3f48e1b4b6316137b6f93d\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What about Dianne Yates? She is retiring early.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f176f8e608e48b9a26139052a3e7a14\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have to say to my learned colleague Simon Power, I would not recommend Dianne Yates. She is famous for only one thing. She has a bill before Parliament at the moment about the docking of dogs\u2019 tails. Vets earn a huge amount of money from the cosmetic docking of dogs\u2019 tails. I think she would have a conflict of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dbec8f51ab6449fa30adca17476969d\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: She did a dog impression in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe07a2ee7ec14ad2846469f0a279e628\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: She did do a dog impression in the House, so she has shown some expertise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe need to be considering advising the Minister on his ability to appoint two laypersons under clause 69(b). We have found one candidate, and we will continue, throughout the rest of tonight, to come up with suitable recommendations from the National caucus. We are here to help. We want this legislation passed as quickly as possible. We want the composition of the council determined as quickly as possible. We know that the Hon Jim Anderton is new to this field and has no familiarity with the farming sector or the veterinary profession. Therefore, we will make sure that over the next couple of hours we take every opportunity to assist him in making good nominations for the one further position he has to find on the Veterinary Council. It needs to be someone who can work closely and collegially with Dame Ann Hercus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a46184f49d304b5e84b59e6a7745d46c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a46184f49d304b5e84b59e6a7745d46c\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E For any members opposite who may be looking for a job after the Christmas break, there is an opportunity to sit on the Veterinary Council. I know that the member from Dunedin South, the Hon David Benson-Pope, might be looking for a job over the Christmas break. I know he has been looking at his options. I understand that he has an offer to be a ballboy at Wimbledon, but I do not think he is quick enough on his feet to take up that one. So he might like to stand as a member of the Veterinary Council. It might be a useful job for the Hon David Benson-Pope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThere are other opportunities on the council. I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Jim Anderton, whether the veterinarian appointment has to be a veterinarian who holds a practising certificate, because that has not been stated in the legislation. I would be interested to know that, because members opposite may have tripped themselves up. I do not think Pete Hodgson holds a practising certificate, and if he does not, he may not be able to get this \u201Cjob for the boys\u201D and he will miss out altogether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI notice that there is no paragraph (e) in clause 69 to appoint a member of the council who does not sit on the council and who takes no responsibility for any other business. If there were such a provision, we could have Winston Peters as the fifth member. He could sit on the council only for things relating to his particular skills, which, of course, would be dealing with the equine industry. As the Minister for Racing he has an opportunity there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo there are plenty of job opportunities. Three veterinarians are to be elected in accordance with the regulations. Two laypersons are to be appointed by the Minister. David Benson-Pope is a possibility there. One veterinarian is to be appointed by the Minister by notice in the Gazette. The last is the person who, for the time being, is responsible for the veterinary science academic programme at Massey University\u2014[Interruption] Well, there is a candidate. There are plenty of opportunities there for former Labour members of Parliament after the Christmas break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E I move to another matter, clause 78. I took some practical steps and wandered along to the Bills Office regarding this particular matter. I was interested to see that the annual report by the Minister for that financial year has to be tabled in the House of Representatives 16 days after he receives it. Well, the Bills Office has never received an annual report. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u2019 heckling is so effective, is it not! He has tripped me up, what, every 10 seconds in this speech! He has nailed me; I am on the cross. Darren Hughes is a phenomenal heckler. I tell members what would be more effective. After Christmas he will take his pills, his voice will break, and then there will be a deep voice booming across the Chamber, instead of a little squeak, and it will blow us off our feet. But up until now it is the small voice of Darren Hughes heckling the members on the other side of the House. He should come back when his voice breaks, heckle us, and he will be effective\u2014he will knock us off our feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264e75e56d7a1440c85afaec01274796a\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe they\u2019ll drop before he comes back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feadfb0062ba451cbdef8770ea06ae0e\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they will drop over Christmas and the member will be an effective heckler. He will certainly take it to members on this side of the House. He will not have to squeak and carry on, and we will respect him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAnyway, I turn again to clause 78, \u201CAnnual report\u201D. Subclause (2) states: \u201CWithin 16 days of receiving the annual report from the Council, the Minister must present a copy of the report to the House of Representatives.\u201D We have not had one to date. There are none in the Bills Office. There are none in the records. I congratulate the Government on the fact that presenting a copy will now be compulsory and the council will have that transparency. I will certainly be getting the annual report of the Veterinary Council to see the progress of its work over the next year, with the passage of that particular measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcfe65b5aebf4dde8242daced6c735bf\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He has nothing else to do. He can\u2019t get promoted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e074577bb93345e182510d1bbfe13a97\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Only dogs can hear Darren Hughes. Only dogs are put off when Darren Hughes heckles, because his voice is so high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00224305f91b3a2f438ea90a5e6c59b5a4de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224305f91b3a2f438ea90a5e6c59b5a4de\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E We have been waiting now for 5 weeks to find out what it was that the Exclusive Brethren paid for. What was it that they were buying from the National Party with all that investment? What was the deep issue that the Labour Government was proposing that had the Exclusive Brethren so up in arms that many of them actually voted in this election for the first time in their lives, according to our check on the electoral rolls? What is in this bill that has the Opposition members talking? Having told us that they would take only one call on each bill after\u2014which one was it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277f1d73ac6e2450687f33b991edd3189\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: After the ports bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022198f151a6b1544349a4d82d528b7c43a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: They said they would take only one call on each bill after the ports bill but suddenly, the entire C-team of the National caucus has come into full flight in the Chamber. What has caused that? The Veterinarians Bill. Why would the National Party caucus be so excited about the Veterinarians Bill? We get excited about bills about humans, but they get excited about bills about animals. I can think why that would be, but probably the Standing Orders would prevent me from saying so. It is animals that get the people opposite so excited; humans they pass over. They have had so many opportunities today to talk about other things but they have chosen to talk about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMr Heatley had one main point. It was that we have not had, under this left-wing, socialist tax-grabbing Government, a single report from the Veterinary Council as provided for in the Veterinarians Bill. Well, no, we will not have any reports until we pass the bill. Then the council will have to produce an annual report and table it. It is appallingly true that until an Act is passed requiring people to table an annual report, they do not have to table it. But, of course, if we had given the veterinarians a tax cut, they would table an annual report all by themselves without being required to by the Government! So I thank the Opposition for doing our job for us. Carry on\u2014we are watching the clock tick away. We are just baffled by what their tactics are at this point in the evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00227a540629ca1c4b8b882df1a35714f121\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a540629ca1c4b8b882df1a35714f121\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E After that contribution, I think it is important to note that it does not matter whether the issue is big or small\u2014the National Party will take the issue seriously, and I think that pet owners and veterinarians up and down the country will be concerned to hear the comments made by Dr Michael Cullen that he does not think that their concerns are important enough to warrant a serious and thorough debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI turn my attention to Part 4, which is about the make-up of the Veterinary Council. Once again, I turn my attention to the complaints assessment committee. I see the new member Shane Jones heckling away there. The point I would like to make is that the complaints assessment committee has greater powers than the committee that he currently chairs. I will recap for those who were not here earlier. This bill allows a complaints assessment committee, by written notice, to demand anybody it wants to come before it and to demand any information it wants on any complaint. It can demand anything, whatever that thing might be, to be brought to it. Basically, it has stronger powers than a select committee of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI know that that member Shane Jones just wishes he had those powers right now as he oversees the TVNZ inquiry, where, impotently, the Finance and Expenditure Committee invited Bill Ralston to come along to the select committee and he declined; invited Susan Wood to come along, but she declined; and invited Paul Holmes to come along to the committee, but he declined. Had Mr Jones been the chair of a Veterinary Council\u2019s complaints assessment committee, he would have had a better chance of getting all those TVNZ staff members to come along and talk about issues of import to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESo we have a committee that must have two or more people. How we can have a committee with just two people on it, I do not know. It is more of a couple than a committee. They sit and deal with complaints that might be very important but might be less significant than some of the issues that the Finance and Expenditure Committee currently inquires about here in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things that do concern me about this part is clause 74(5), which states: \u201CA resolution of a complaints assessment committee is passed if a majority of votes are cast for it.\u201D Well, I have a bit of a problem with that provision because each committee has only three people on it. That is my reading of clause 74(2), which states that each committee has two vets and one layperson. Well, in the event that there is a complaint that is contentious, the vets can gang up on the layperson and they need to have only a majority of one for that complaints assessment resolution to be passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThat does not seem very fair. That does not seem to be due process. Surely, if significant complaints are brought before the complaints assessment committee\u2014for example, the Bianca incident, which my colleague David Carter mentioned earlier\u2014and the debate is contentious, and the members of the committee do not agree, they need to have only a majority of one on a committee of three for the resolution to be passed. I think that as the complaints assessment committee may deal with some quite contentious issues, that is not good enough. The complaints committee obviously needs to have more people on it, and it needs to have a greater balance. Otherwise we will always be in a position of the vets ganging up on the layperson, or two people ganging up on one. I really think the resolutions need to be passed by consensus, given that the committee is so very, very small. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EWe have talked about the composition of the council, and that clause has been renamed the \u201CHercus clause\u201D by my colleague David Carter. I wonder why the Minister needs to appoint anybody on to a council that is basically going to oversee veterinarians. Why do we need to have any political influence at all? Why can we not trust veterinarians to put people on to their board whom they trust and vote for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a32d74fe2ae24ae69e44c2f1c0282949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a32d74fe2ae24ae69e44c2f1c0282949\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting to hear strident cries from National members about undemocratic process and appointments to committees of the council. I have just checked with the officials that the composition of the Veterinary Council is exactly the same as the composition set by the 1994 Act. Who was the 1994 Act passed by?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d4dcc6cd6b424b8e6753a79f1a824b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225da251dca6414fc69c2816a41316845d\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Was it? I did not think Labour was in Government then, so I do not think it was. No, the National Government passed the Act but National members are now saying the Veterinary Council is a hopeless hotbed of socialist intrigue and undemocratic process\u2014and it has not changed! It has not changed one scrap. I was thinking maybe I had missed something and that maybe it had changed. But this bit of the Act is exactly the same as the previous one. Furthermore, it has been the same all the time the Primary Production Committee has been looking at the legislation. So if it is so bad now\u2014and everyone has to examine this very closely\u2014then what was the select committee doing? I thought that under the very capable chairmanship of David Carter everything was hunky-dory and going along swimmingly. So nothing changed in the 1994 Act. Everything was fine, because National passed it, but now, on this night, it all has to be filibustered as though there is a plot against democratic process as we know it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI do not think any self-respecting vet will be listening to the debate but if they are, then I would like them to consider this: we are told that the National Party wants to help the veterinary profession and get this bill passed. The Government was criticised just a few hours ago\u2014although it seems like days, with the quality of the speeches\u2014for holding the bill up; that it had to get in; that the vets were ready to celebrate and the champagne bottles were going to be opened. Yet here we are, hours later, arguing footling amendments, ridiculously trivial rubbish, that the so-called famous chairman of the select committee, all on his own behalf, changes the number, and all the rest of it. There have been hours and hours of delay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI treat with complete derision what is going on here. The National Party may think it is funny or smart. I think it derides and undermines the reputation of the House, and I treat that behaviour with contempt. If those members carry on like that, then there is nothing in what they are doing that will advance the sum of knowledge in the veterinary profession by one millimetre. But they should go on doing it if they think that is the way to gain their reputation outside this Parliament. They should go ahead and make our day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022f04494b8becf4c788393089372e5d441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f04494b8becf4c788393089372e5d441\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I presume that after a contribution like that we will be allowed a wide-ranging debate on the remaining part. After the Minister rose to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227084a7593a014cdc951aed1891cbc1f6\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: They haven\u2019t been already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ee89c85d73042589ea9a97b4b12f368\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: It is totally contrary to Speakers\u2019 rulings for a Minister in the chair to interject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be13a754c2304af79dcb393597436f95\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is absolutely right, but he invited it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b2ea5c31c594a80b4a6cbf76586e6cb\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610b63de8cfa4176b40ee57ac0464fdd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I may have misheard, but that is the way I understood it. The member spoke, and the Minister responded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022699066d763f9444f8cf9c7f0833511d0\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: We now seek a ruling after having had a contribution from the Minister in which he referred to the bill I think once. Prior to that, members on this side of the Chamber had been pulled back to the point of the bill by you on several occasions. I noticed that Dr Cullen, in his contribution\u2014which had very little to do with the bill\u2014was not required to address the part in any serious way. I ask you now to advise the Committee on whether it is your intention to allow a wide-ranging discussion on the remaining part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f14a422d7fd417c9827e34545b291cd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will continue to run the Committee as I have done, and I would say that people from both sides have strayed from the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d125db697597471cba5feace43fb6f9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d125db697597471cba5feace43fb6f9a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to bring to the attention of the Committee just how holier than thou the Minister seems to be. Never in his\u2014how many years has the Minister been here, 20 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f19cbfde02145659f62fedaf5b26bca\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Longer than you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a7f23588c1a43f69fea6c0b2e9e2092\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister blurts out: \u201CLonger than you.\u201D Obviously, any fool would know that. [Interruption] Here we go, bring it on! It will be 40 love in a minute, I say to Mr Benson-Pope. He should keep his trap shut. [Interruption] Absolutely! At least I am not a bully, and at least I did not lie to the House. At least I did not make up stories and come down to the Chamber and tell\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246ea55ce4cb94d9eb2a427036b1ca72f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022236cf23cf97c429db9caa47a647e9bbf\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has the holier-than-thou attitude of a long-serving member of Parliament that says we are bringing the House into disrepute with our so-called tactics, as if he has never been party to a good discussion on a long bill that is actually a very intense bill. He has never been party to any sort of tactic in the House. That is what happens when one becomes an angry old pensioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe leader of New Zealand First is the other half of the angry pensioner duo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f58bae59a23841239c6d594388106ae2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I would like some semblance to the subject of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba914bf6e684047860473c5fd025531\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Is that right? I was just following what the last two Government speakers were on about. I am sorry that I have misread the situation. Clause 69(b) states: \u201C(b) 2 laypersons appointed by the Minister by notice in the Gazette; \u2026\u201D. What it should really state is: \u201C(b) 2 Labour Party cronies appointed by the Minister by notice in the Gazette; \u2026\u201D\u2014and, yes, not only Ann Hercus, as my learned colleague says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI hear that Jonathan Hunt is on his way back now. Do members know why? The reason is that the leader of New Zealand First will pick up the job as High Commissioner when he has done a bit of a stint as Minister of Foreign Affairs. Jonathan Hunt will come home, then he will end up with the plum job on that council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut he is not the only one. What about John Goulter? He could be one of the laypersons who is appointed to the council. Or maybe it could be Ken Douglas, another angry pensioner. He is not doing much these days. The Minister should put him on the council. I tell members that he would be the first red veterinary councillor they have ever seen. He would be good. But here is another one\u2014another guy who does not do much for a living. In fact, he makes his living off an appointment by the Labour Party. It is none other than the president himself, Mike Williams. Mike Williams could be on this council. He is a good candidate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe Minister can sit there with a smug smile and a smug face, and he can shake his head all that he wants to. But the holier-than-thou attitude is gone, Mr Angry Pensioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9260232aa9a491cb252603b74b0a288\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9260232aa9a491cb252603b74b0a288\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E At this point in the debate, as I stand up to address Part 4, \u201CVeterinary Council of New Zealand\u201D, I think it is very important to reflect for just a moment on why this bill is so important to the members of the National Party. I think we just need to look at the map of the electoral seats as a result of the last election to note the large swathe of blue that provincial and rural New Zealand is now painted. We need only reflect on the number of electorate seats that have been returned to their rightful National home to realise that, yes, the concerns of rural and provincial New Zealand are very important to us, as indeed is the Veterinarians Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EIt has been noted on the other side of the Chamber how keen and enthusiastic we on the National side are to debate this part of the bill, and I want to take a moment now to thank my more senior colleagues for the time they have taken to come to provincial and rural New Zealand to support our campaigns. I want to thank Phil Heatley, who came down to Otago to help me campaign in order to win back Otago to National, so that farmers would be well represented in Otago. I want to thank Simon Power, who took time out of his busy schedule to come down to Otago. I took him through Middlemarch in the middle of winter, and we heard the concerns of farmers in Otago. We went through black ice but that did not deter us, because we were very, very concerned about the issues to do with farming in New Zealand. The issues are not just about pets for us in the National Party; they are also about farming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI return to Part 4, Veterinary Council of New Zealand. I note that clause 67, \u201CFunctions of Council\u201D, states: \u201CThe Council\u2019s functions are\u2014(a) to advise and make recommendations to the Minister on any matter relating to veterinarians and the practice of veterinary science:\u201D. Clearly, this part of the bill is of vital importance and interest to us on the National side of the House. I want to move to paragraph (g) of clause 67, in which the council\u2019s function is: \u201Cto receive, investigate, and hear complaints about, inquire into the conduct of, make assessments of, and discipline specified persons under Part 3:\u201D. Now, just returning to Part 3 very briefly, I tell members that people have very strongly held affections not only for their vets but also for their farm animals. I think we in National have a very clear understanding of why this bill is so very important to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1bb1e324efb462e95fd350d30474563\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1bb1e324efb462e95fd350d30474563\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 4, \u201CVeterinary Council of New Zealand\u201D, and I do so because it is a very important part\u2014remarkable, indeed. But, unlike Mr Cullen, I actually want to talk about Part 4. I want, first of all, to thank the Minister for his enlightening comments, but, in fact, I had already noted that there are, unlike many parts of this bill, few, if any, changes to Part 4. Why is that? It is because the former Minister of Agriculture did not manage to meddle with this part before presenting the original draft. In fact, the details around the Veterinary Council, around the complaints assessment committees, and around the judicial committees obviously met with the approval of the sector\u2014the very same sector that was not consulted with prior to putting together the rest of the bill. So Part 4 is remarkable for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EPart 4 is also very important because it concerns the registration body of the peers, and the peers are the vets. The council members are there to examine, to register, to advise the Minister on any matter, including education, to talk to other countries about reciprocal arrangements, to hear complaints, and also to prescribe standards. I want to refer to talking to other countries about reciprocal arrangements and why that is so important. Again, we come back to the fact that we are short of vets, and particularly of rural vets. And I reflect on what my colleague has said about the blue tide that has swept through New Zealand\u2014the blue tide that recognises that provincial New Zealand is important. The primary production sector is important, and that area of New Zealand has been callously disregarded by the Labour Government. In fact, on 17 September it was Labour\u2019s peril. We see in the Chamber tonight many members who now hold former Labour seats, myself included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the complaints assessment committees we see they have, as my colleague Katherine Rich has suggested, very, very powerful powers. Again, we are still to be illuminated about things. I put it to members again that those things are still probably the frozen bodies of the pets in the freezer. The judicial committees are a very important part of the process. We see that because Part 4 does not have many changes, if any; it is just a mere five pages, compared with the 31 pages that we saw in Part 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EWe can talk about clause 69, \u201CComposition of Council\u201D\u2014three elected veterinarians and also another appointed one, and two lay persons. I may have to take a slightly divergent view from that of my colleague Katherine Rich regarding the make-up of that committee. I believe it is in the best interest of veterinarians that they represent the views of pet owners, by making sure that there are no bad apples amongst them. I do believe veterinarians will judge their peers very harshly on occasions when they are before them, so therefore there will be a balance of views that looks to the interests of pets and vets. We have heard here tonight about the emotive issues around those who worry terribly about their pets, and the balance on that council is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI have just a final comment to make regarding the possible laypersons who could be appointed, and I say we have had some suggestions. Earlier this week I saw in the Timaru Herald that the Hon Jim Sutton is looking for a new job, so I wonder whether he could be a candidate. But chillingly, I also suggest\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d53d31f09594f14ae6c7dc8c5767af8\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: A racing car driver!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271fcd48ed9984814abf18911160394b8\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, true, yes he could also do that. Chillingly, I also suggest that there will be some National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) markers who are disenchanted and disillusioned with their jobs. They too will be looking for a new job. So it may be that NCEA markers would be a very good idea as lay members of the council. I believe that my colleagues will come up with many more suggestions about those lay people. We have had some great suggestions here tonight, but I still think that perhaps the Hon Jim Sutton should be right up there, because he has suggested that he may be looking for a new occupation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00224f0ff54a44084b2a9d82bdc8630af6cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f0ff54a44084b2a9d82bdc8630af6cf\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe98378ea19b4b9e8c93044f02bfb9da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe98378ea19b4b9e8c93044f02bfb9da\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I have been looking forward to taking a call on Part 4\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c5314c5bfed4e8fb5f27fa4f591fe3c\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He wants to go on the council!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e806b8ba3ded4b91b81b2cbc426a8a1a\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hughes chips in and says that I want to be on the council. It seems to me there are a fair number of candidates on the other side who would make excellent lay people on the Veterinary Council, not the least of whom is dear old Paul Swain there\u2014one of the good centrists and moderates of the caucus, who is about to gracefully exit. This would be a good way for \u201CSwainy and the boys\u201D to make a few dollars on the side when they leave Parliament. We would support his nomination. If he puts his nomination in, National will support Paul Swain going on the council. I tell members that the thing that worries us about good people, such as Paul Swain, who are sliding out of the Labour Party is that we will be left with a whole lot of lefties over there with none of the sort of sensible, middle-of-the-road guys like Jim Sutton and Paul Swain. We always know. We can smell it coming. And poor old Swainy, who is well regarded on all sides of the House, is on his way out. He has done the honourable thing and decided he will move on before the axe falls. I tell Swainy to come on over. If he wants to be on the council we will sort it out for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOf course, we have plenty of other candidates to choose from, although none of them are as good as Paul Swain and Jim Sutton. But I could imagine Dianne Yates on the council. She knows a lot about taking tails off dogs. She would be an ideal person for this particular committee. Or Jill Pettis would be an excellent person to have on the committee. Martin Gallagher sits at the back there smiling and shaking his head. But we all know that secretly he wants to give away the chair of the Law and Order Committee and get himself on to the Veterinary Council. I tell members that it would be easier for him to manage that than the Law and Order Committee where he has to rely on Ron Mark turning up some time in the first 10 minutes to make sure he has a quorum. Poor old Martin Gallagher is struggling in that job. This is a job for him. Let us get Martin Gallagher on to the Veterinary Council. He could sit there with Swainy and Jim Sutton. They would make a great team. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat about Russell Fairbrother? Poor old Russell Fairbrother. He was on the way up. He got the suicide posting of having to chair the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee. He was a future Attorney-General and Minister of Justice, but he was swatted in Napier, and now he is destined for the Veterinary Council. Poor old Russell Fairbrother! Whatever happened to him? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat about that nice Rick Barker? Whatever happened to him? I say to members that of all the Ministers that this Government has had, he signed JPs\u2019 nominations better than anybody else when he was in charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286fd0600d62c438b94cb6108a9b22521\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Rick Barker should be on the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a4d8aa1f2c46d2a8f1811412e99bf5\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Paul Swain says that Rick Barker should be on the Veterinary Council. [Interruption] With a name like Barker, that is quite right. If we had Swainy on the council, we would have more of those little quips. I say well done to Paul Swain, and I think Rick Barker should chair it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat about poor old Moana Mackey? I have to confess I think Moana Mackey makes an intelligent contribution to this House. Unfortunately, she is languishing at the bottom of the Labour list. She is gone. I think she would make a valuable contribution to the Veterinary Council. I think that would be an ideal place. She could talk about the effect of student loans on cats. I think it would be an excellent place for her to be. She has a big future on the Veterinary Council, along with Martin Gallagher if he gives away the Law and Order Committee, and along with Paul Swain, who is gracefully trying to retire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat about Shane Jones? I tell him to cut out the middleman and go straight to the Veterinary Council. He should forget about Cabinet, and go round the Finance and Expenditure Committee and straight on to the Veterinary Council. National will even support his nomination if that is where he wants to go. I figure that David Parker\u2019s workload is so small that if he was put on the Veterinary Council, sure, he would refuse to do media interviews about the appointment for a month, but in the end, he would get on to the council and do some serious and real work, because he has made such an impact on the transport area and on climate change\u2014he has been the Minister for 3 weeks and carbon tax has gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ESo that is what the composition of the lay people on the council would look like. We would have a rotating system of lay people like Dianne Yates, Jill Pettis, Russell Fairbrother, Moana Mackey, Jim Sutton, and Paul Swain\u2014a man who, I believe, could make a seriously valuable contribution in that arena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00226c9df6bbc25c4e3980c5f779d99a5319\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c9df6bbc25c4e3980c5f779d99a5319\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 69 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (d), and substitute the following paragraph:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E(d) The person nominated by Massey University as a representative of their veterinary science academic programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d73c6b72cad1401585b59c8edd18a277\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001056\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 72 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001057\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) the number \u201C2\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C3\u201D. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f1c8cea5d11d48af9c913ae54af974bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001058\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 72 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001059\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) the number \u201C2\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C4\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fcfe3d9affc640ebb000378bfc48e5dc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001060\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 72 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001061\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) the number \u201C2\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C5\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221cdc92992d744a1085382289413bcb3e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001062\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 74 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001063\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (2) the words \u201Cand 1 of whom must be appointed as the secretary of the committee\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e922b6cddd447bb87efd7182b59e678\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001064\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 74 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001065\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (2) the words \u201Cand 1 of whom must be appointed as the deputy chairperson of the committee\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c88928c2e0b748a5bddd8135bfd8dfee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001066\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 74 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001067\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the number \u201C1\u201D, after the word \u201Cand\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C2\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002242bc8266448a45c6b61a3edd4894813b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001068\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 75 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001069\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the number \u201C5\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C7\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002220b8e0446122470e89187a8d05946464\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001070\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 75 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001071\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of subclause (2) the number \u201C7\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C6\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022077e25cac70045a1b0cae9cacd9006fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001072\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 75 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001073\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of subclause (2) the number \u201C7\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C5\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294d9fcea3f434e7299b27443ec6998dc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001074\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 75 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001075\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (4) the words \u201C2 or more\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C3 or more\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022de16c2a3595547378184983a69914a2b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001076\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 76 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001077\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (1) the word \u201Cmust\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Cmay\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ba5d72095b624c108081c9ac694e8ddb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001078\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 78 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001079\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the words \u201C16 sitting days\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C20 sitting days\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002256807021aae241bf98c6bb1f99b2b4c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001080\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 78 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001081\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the number \u201C16\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C9\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002261c7b3a9cd0e48c49a06e36b4d81e91e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001082\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 78 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001083\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the number \u201C16\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C10\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229982bb1af1d64489ae29c05fa19d5004\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001084\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 78 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001085\u0022\u003Eto omit from subclause (2) the number \u201C16\u201D, and substitute the number \u201C18\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221afe777cbd5d4ec69ace275ad731e5d6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001086\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab6cdeb303be464aad910dc02a5df57b\u0022\u003EPart 5  Miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022884dab694cf74b948b405e60ac6aa06c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884dab694cf74b948b405e60ac6aa06c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ask the Minister for her comments on three sections, and I want to start with clause 86, \u201CService of documents\u201D. I raise this because I just wonder whether the Primary Production Committee, although it worked diligently on this, has actually missed something here. Clause 86(1) states: \u201CAny document, notification, or summons required or authorised by or under this Act may be served\u2014(a) by delivering it personally to the person; or (b) by posting it to the person at that person\u2019s usual place of residence.\u201D I have no concern with clause 86(1), but clause 86(2), I think, actually raises something that the Primary Production Committee may have missed, and I think the Minister should concentrate on this. Clause 86(2)(a) states that if a summons is served personally on a person, then that person must receive it \u201Cat least 48 hours before the attendance of the witness is required\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe point I want to raise with the new Minister in the chair, the Hon Annette King, is that\u2014[Interruption] Well, maybe this Minister will actually know something about it. The point I want to raise is that there seems to be an incredibly short time frame between the time someone is served a notice to appear and the time that that person must appear\u2014at least 48 hours. I genuinely worry whether the Primary Production Committee has missed something, because I know that if the summons were served on a person like Dame Ann Hercus, she would have no trouble being there in 48 hours, because her diary is free now. But if the document were served on my vet, Dave Matheson, of Teddington, RD1 Lyttelton, who runs the most efficient vet clinic in Christchurch, the Shirley Vet Centre, then Dave would have huge difficulties clearing his diary, because he is one of the most competent vets in Christchurch\u2014probably the most competent vet in Christchurch. He would have a very busy schedule if people brought Sally the dog or Bianca the cockatoo to him. Under this legislation, if summonsed, he would be required to be at the hearing in 48 hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI seriously say to the Minister\u2014and the Minister might like to check with the officials\u2014that maybe I am misinterpreting this, or maybe it is something we have missed at select committee, which would not be surprising, because the Primary Production Committee has had a huge job sorting the mess out after the Government delivered the bill in such a cruddy state in the first place. Again, I pay tribute to the assistance the committee received from the Veterinary Council in doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second point I raise with the Minister in the chair, Annette King, is the inclusion of new clause 79AA, \u201CProtection for members of Council and others\u201D: \u201CNeither the Council nor any committee, member, committee member, employee, or agent of the Council is liable for anything done or omitted to be done, in good faith \u2026\u201D. I was worried about the inclusion of that clause at the time we examined it in the Primary Production Committee. But after hearing the contributions from members of this Committee on the previous part, where we talked about putting people like \u201CSwainy and the boys\u201D, Dianne Yates, Jill Pettis, and the likes on to the council as the ministerial lay appointments\u2014because they are people who will have lots of time after the next month or two\u2014then I think we probably do need to realise that some of the decision making will be pretty marginal, at best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ELet us take somebody like Russell Fairbrother. He has been a disaster as a member of Parliament, so he will probably be no better as an appointee to the Veterinary Council. We need to make sure that the whole of the council\u2014some of them will be good people\u2014does not become exposed to some of the marginal decisions that people like \u201CSwainy and the boys\u201D may make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe final point I make before \u201CSwainy\u201D walks out relates to the fees referred to in clause 87. Clause 87 states that the council may prescribe fees. That is satisfactory; I agree that that is a necessary role of the council, but because the council will be stacked initially with Labour Party lackeys\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00221109aa4979ec463e96f21850573cf4a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221109aa4979ec463e96f21850573cf4a9\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to see Annette King in the chair. We can only hope that she has read the bill, unlike the previous Minister in the chair, Jim Anderton. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI also am intrigued by the miscellaneous provisions that were pointed out by the Hon David Carter. One of the new unanimous clauses is clause 79AA, \u201CProtection for members of Council and others\u201D, which reads: \u201CNeither the Council nor any committee, member, committee member, employee, or agent of the Council is liable for any thing done or omitted to be done, in good faith in the performance or intended performance of their functions or duties, or the exercise of their powers, under this Act.\u201D Why I find this\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fdff4b3543440d8a4dcd79080813c91\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: There is just far too much chatter. It is not fair to the member speaking. [Interruption] I am on my feet. There was a lot of chatter coming from the member\u2019s side of the Chamber. Would people give the speaker a fair go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253feaeb833ac459e8afca2db52e04ffd\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: When we look at possible appointments to that council, like David Benson-Pope and all sorts of others who stumble, trip, and make mistakes and try to cover them up, is it any wonder that we see a protection for members of the council and others, which states that they may not be liable. Let us imagine David Benson-Pope sitting as a member on that council. Let us imagine a veterinarian coming before the council and David Benson-Pope tying the vet to a chair and shoving all sorts of veterinary apparatus in the vet\u2019s mouth. If David Benson-Pope was on the Veterinary Council and did that to a vet who was before the council, let us imagine the problems he would have if this no-liability clause 79AA was not in the bill. How could we have members like David Benson-Pope running amok on the council\u2014abusing vets and everyone who appeared before the council\u2014and not have this out clause? He could simply say that it was not him, it was his press secretary. He could say it was not him that tied up the vet and shoved some sort of breeding device in his or her mouth, or anything like that, but that it was actually a staff member whom he has referred to the chair of the council to be dealt with in due course. He might not make any further comment, but there would be a leak at the weekend in one of the Sunday papers. David Benson-Pope would have this protection clause, whereby he would not be liable whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EClause 82, however, is a clause made for Pete Hodgson. It is headed \u201CPower of Council to supply evidence for registration overseas\u201D. As we know, Pete Hodgson is on his way out; he is one of the old men of the Labour Party. Clause 82(1) states: \u201CThe Council may supply to a veterinarian or other registered person the documents it thinks fit for the purpose of enabling the veterinarian or person to seek registration as a veterinarian outside New Zealand.\u201D Of course, Pete Hodgson wants a job overseas. The Labour Party is stacking the council so that it might supply the documentation for people like Pete Hodgson to get work overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWhat is the quid pro quo? That is what members are asking at the moment\u2014I can hear them. The answer is in clause 82(2), which states that a veterinarian who requests such documents may have to pay a fee. Pete Hodgson will have to give some sort of backhander to the council, and we all know what that will be: flu jabs. Only Ministers who send him overseas, and give him the permission and the certificates, will get flu jabs. Ministers of the Cabinet and members of the council will get the Tamiflu jabs. No other New Zealander will. Pete Hodgson, as a retiring old man of the Labour Party who wants a job overseas as a vet, will need that documentation to prove that he is a vet and that he can be registered to work overseas. The quid pro quo is that Annette King will receive a Tamiflu jab from Pete Hodgson, the current Minister of Health. She was unable to arrange that when she herself was the Minister of Health, as it would have been a conflict of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThere is much in these clauses that points to a conspiracy of the Labour Party. The sun is setting on so many of its members, such as Pete Hodgson. We heard about Russell Fairbrother, and we see people like Rick Barker, who took voluntary redundancy and just gave up in his seat in the last election. He lay down and waved the white flag. He gave up. The sun is setting on the careers of all those members of the Labour Party, and they are looking for jobs\u2014Pete Hodgson as a vet overseas, and others as members of the Veterinary Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce18598aa39947af9a32ca088940a54e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce18598aa39947af9a32ca088940a54e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I say to Phil Heatley that his contribution was very droll, very amusing, and totally irrelevant, so I will spend no time on it, at all. However, the Hon David Carter made a very serious contribution to tonight\u2019s debate. He debated clause 86, \u201CService of documents\u201D. He wondered why a document would have to be served within 48 hours, and he mentioned his very good vet on Banks Peninsula somewhere, who is so busy that he or she would not be able to receive a document or go to pick it up. So I thought I would read the whole clause to the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EClause 86(1) states: \u201CAny document, notification, or summons required or authorised by or under this Act may be served\u2014(a) by delivering it personally to the person; or (b) by posting to the person at that person\u2019s usual place of residence.\u201D So we have the choice of delivering it or posting it via the very good New Zealand Post. Clause 86(2) states that if a document is served under clause 86(1), it has to be served\u2014I tell Mr Carter to listen to this\u2014within at least 48 hours. So it could be served 2 months beforehand, but at least 48 hours\u2019 notice must be given before the attendance of the witness is required. If one wants to post the document, it must be served at least 10 days in advance. So Mr Carter\u2019s very good vet on Banks Peninsula will have time to receive the summons. Let us face it, if the vet is receiving a summons, he or she may not be such a good vet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00223329707ad32242259c3feaf949eb56ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223329707ad32242259c3feaf949eb56ea\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 5 is very important, as has been outlined previously by my colleagues. I will speak to clause 4 of schedule 1, because it contains some wording that I find deeply disturbing. I am glad that Minister King is in the chair, because I think we might now hear some calls that shed some light on the bill. She might give us the answers to some questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EClause 4 of schedule 1 relates to members ceasing to hold office. Now, I understand that a member ceases to hold office if he or she resigns, in accordance with the legislation; or if he or she is removed from office\u2014well, that makes sense to me\u2014or if he or she stops being a veterinarian, which also makes sense to me, because obviously if that member is one of the people who has been appointed as a vet but ceases to be a vet, then clearly that member cannot hold his or her position. But I do find one thing deeply disturbing\u2014clause 4 states that a member ceases to hold office if he or she dies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d17185a28047c093342f4b016990ff\u0022\u003EJacqui Dean\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238c0145a57194fb9bf9c5bae48488743\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It states that a member ceases to hold office on the Veterinary Council if he or she dies. [Interruption] Now, not wanting to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022555532abcd2e4a03b8044feb60f6b4da\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Not long ago members on this side of the Chamber were cautioned for their noise level while other members on the other side of the Chamber were making a contribution. I think it is fair to say that those of us sitting close to the speaker are having difficulty hearing what she has to say, so there is no way that other members present in the Chamber would be able to hear her. All I am asking is that the rule relating to respecting a member\u2019s ability to speak in a reasonable level of quietness be applied equally to those on both sides of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b653e6fa787c4935a59b393394548e8b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; Simon Power is absolutely right. The whole Committee was cautioned before. I say to any members who have come in since then that there is a level of chatter, and that is very hard on the speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f851df4c06b4ad0b714141a32587743\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Because of the noise in the Chamber at the time, I would just like to back the truck up a bit and start my point again. It relates to clause 4 of schedule 1. That clause is all about members who have to stand down from the Veterinary Council for one reason or another. Members on my side of the Chamber can fully understand that someone stands down from the council if they resign\u2014that makes sense to us\u2014or if they stop being a vet. That also makes sense to us. But we do not understand why the bill has to point out that a member ceases to hold office if he or she dies. Perhaps I am missing something. Perhaps there is some technical respect or difficult situation that the Veterinary Council has faced in the past, with dead people wanting to retain their membership on the council, but it does not seem to be particularly clear to me as to why we have to state the obvious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EAlthough I am sure that members of the Veterinary Council take their roles extremely seriously, it is quite obvious that if they have passed on they will not be able to attend meetings and play a very vigorous part on the Veterinary Council. It is also clear that although members of the Veterinary Council take their roles extremely seriously\u2014and it is a role of huge honour\u2014it is not a titled honour or some kind of position that passes from family to family in the event of a loved one\u2019s death. So I would like to hear Minister King\u2019s explanation of that. There may be something that members on this side of the Chamber are missing. There might be some clever, cunning plan to legislate away something that has occurred, some concern of the Veterinary Council, or some problem that Labour might have had in its experiences with some of its own Cabinet Ministers in the past\u2014something that is not clear to members on this side\u2014and that could explain why we have to state the obvious in clause 4. That is my first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EMy second point relates to the Minister\u2019s ability to remove people from office just by written notice. The Minister has quite a powerful ability to remove whomever he or she chooses. The Minister can simply write to a council member if the Minister is dissatisfied with that member, if the member has neglected his or her duties, if he or she has failed to perform, or if there has been inadequate performance. Perhaps Labour members might like to read those clauses, because, once again, there might be some relevance to the Cabinet right now. What worries me is ministerial control and the ability of Ministers to influence the performance of the council, and, perhaps, to exert undue influence on the work of the council if its members are under threat of being removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00229c1d1e4d39c945eda0cb501cf28c8c19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c1d1e4d39c945eda0cb501cf28c8c19\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a quick call to clear up the point the member was making about the clause stating that a member ceases to hold office if he or she dies. I am informed that that clause is in the current Veterinarians Act 1994. So there must have been a good reason why it was put in by the National Government in 1994. The member might also be interested to know that a similar clause is in the Electoral Act, which states that a seat becomes vacant if someone dies. However, many people on that side hold seats\u2014and they are vacant already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00228a4a979c67164ca0907fdfd2294cf04a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a4a979c67164ca0907fdfd2294cf04a\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak to Part 5, \u201CMiscellaneous provisions\u201D\u2014 which are numerous. Initially, I would like to make a comment about the suggestion that the Hon Pete Hodgson be an appointed member of the Veterinary Council\u2014a veterinarian appointed by the Minister. He would not be able to be so appointed because he has not been practising as a vet, and under this new bill he would have to fulfil certain competency requirements and undergo some sort of retraining with supervision. Maybe we could have some suggestions over the course of the evening about who could supervise the Hon Pete Hodgson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIn Part 5, the first miscellaneous provision is found in clause 79AA, which members have discussed. It concerns protection for members of the council and others, and states: \u201CNeither the Council nor any committee, member, committee member, employee, or agent of the Council is liable for any thing done or omitted to be done, in good faith in the performance or intended performance of their functions or duties, or the exercise of their powers, under this Act.\u201D That is fair enough. The members of the council do need protection, but they also need to be accountable. There does need to be some balance in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe next matter I will talk about concerns clause 79, \u201CApproved and prescribed matters to be notified and available for inspection\u201D. Subclause (1) states that matters approved by the council must \u201C(b) be made available so that members of the public may inspect the documents relating to the matter of free of charge.\u201D That is also fair enough. That process needs to be transparent, and the public should have access to those documents. Subclause (2) goes on to state: \u201CHowever, a person may be charged a reasonable fee if the person is supplied with a copy of any particulars.\u201D I wonder what a reasonable fee is, and who decides what the amount will be. That is an important fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI move on to clause 80, concerning evidence, which I think is an important provision. It states that the certificate of the council is to be conclusive evidence, and I absolutely agree with that. It must stand up to close scrutiny, otherwise what is the point? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EBut clause 82 really worries me; \u201CPower of Council to supply evidence for registration overseas\u201D is of real concern, because it means that we are giving vets leaving New Zealand a certificate of competency for registration overseas, and that is a reflection of the state of our workforce. Not only are vets leaving in droves but so are so many other Kiwis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f66bf4e8be4699bc4ef264840bd57e\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Taking their qualifications with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab8f277a714e48448879a072f48abc0d\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014taking their qualifications with them. They see no future in New Zealand, and they are packing up and going off to a better life, with better salaries and better opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe vets themselves, as reported in the Veterinary Council news brief from February 2005, recognise that as an issue, and they recognise that their numbers in the workforce will fall short. I will read members a paragraph. It is quite important and highlights some parallels with other issues today: \u201CThe council will be able to offer limited registration, under conditions, to individuals whose qualifications don\u2019t meet the recognised standards but whose skills sets are needed in specific areas. It is most likely that those individuals would be employed in sectors such as teaching and research, and in areas of specific need. \u2026 This category would be used to deal with any emergency disease outbreak,\u201D\u2014and that is my point. A flu pandemic will hit New Zealand at some point. It is not a question of if; it is a question of when, and we will have a real problem dealing with sick people in their homes and having to invent a new type of primary health care. We will have to call on non-governmental organisations and on professionals who have perhaps been out of the workforce for a while to help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe vets are now recognising the same situation with a potential emergency disease outbreak of foot-and-mouth, I suspect, or something similar. I think it is sad that we are losing our workforce. The vets recognise it; they recognise that we need contingencies for emergency situations, and we need to do the same for the flu pandemic when it comes. There is an interesting parallel here, because I have been very concerned about the workforce issue in New Zealand, particularly with the situation of the breast cancer workforce. It has put our programme under immense pressure. In 2004 we had to send our women over to the Gold Coast for radiotherapy. We do not have to send our pets overseas to see vets at this stage, but it could become a problem. We may have to do that\u2014to seek help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cce98adfb2a0494f9fcf3998fdd3bb4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cce98adfb2a0494f9fcf3998fdd3bb4c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ask the Minister about clause 79(1) and (2). Clause 79(1)(b) states: \u201C(1) Any matter approved or prescribed by the Council under this Act must\u2014\u2026 (b) be made available so that members of the public may inspect the documents relating to the matter free of charge.\u201D Clause 79(2) goes on to state: \u201C(2) However, a person may be charged a reasonable fee if the person is supplied with a copy of any particulars.\u201D I would ask the Minister what, in his mind, constitutes a reasonable fee. The interpretation of a reasonable fee is rather large. Is it $10, 60c per page, or 40c per page\u2014what does that term actually constitute? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI thought that that was the only thing I would ask about Part 5, but as we read on, we see Part 5 sets out the fee structure. It is just another grubby little Labour Government grab of taxpayers\u2019 money. The fees are all over the place. Clause 87, \u201CCouncil may prescribe fees\u201D, states: \u201C(1) the Council may from time to time, by notice in the Gazette, \u2026\u201D prescribe fees. I go on to clause 88, \u201CPrinciples guiding prescribing of fees\u201D, to clause 89, which is also about fees, and to clause 90, \u201CFurther provisions relating to fees\u201D. The Government could have called Part 5 \u201CMiscellaneous provisions about fees\u201D. It is a tax\u2014exactly! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe point is that people out there will have to pay for that. The spin-off from this legislation is that vet fees will go up. The issue is not just about Veterinary Council fees and about how the council does its business; it is about putting the hand of the Government into the back pocket of the worker who may have a German shepherd\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214336ea316ae4892aa8e0dbbab5c65cc\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: No, a cocky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c3bc2f61ea428b82890a7a2c3ae5a8\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! How many dogs do farmers have to help them run the farm? Let us say it is six or seven little Australian cattle dogs, maybe. It means that when those dogs have to be taken to the vet because there may be a problem, one that is not of the farmer\u2019s doing but basically because dogs may become sick, the farmer will be charged more. The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who is sitting on the Government side of the Chamber and looking really interested in this point, may want to know about the dogs on his property, too. When he takes them to the vet, the vet will think that in case he or she has to front up to the council one day, he or she should put his or her charges up, and there we have the flow-on effect. So I am afraid that Part 5 is really about a tax grab, and I suppose that all the cockies and people who own pets and animals will most probably say the Government should take its hand out of their pockets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue raised the issue of clause 82, \u201CPower of Council to supply evidence for registration overseas\u201D. That would have been all right if there was a clause at about that point in the bill regarding the registration of overseas people as well, in order to bring them together so that we were not actually losing people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229be5a5850994ad088a6d911c6a6d492\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Exporting them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284fd2afa6ab74db1b23cbc7ecb531ca4\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! As my learned colleague from Whangarei said, we are exporting the skills of this country. That is what that is. What about the people in this country, for goodness sake! Do we not care about the people who have the Biancas, the Gees\u2014do people remember Gee? He was the dog that was run over. This part of the bill is nothing more than a tax grab. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIn closing, I just want to ask the Minister about clause 84, \u201CCrown not liable for debts of Council\u201D. However, in every other part of this bill, basically the Crown wants to have a say. The Crown is to appoint a couple of people to the board. The Crown is to do this and the Crown is to do that, but when it comes time to front up, the Crown does not want to be liable. It says it is not its fault if something goes wrong, and that it only appoints people and makes the laws. So what is that all about? That is a serious question, and I ask the Minister what that is all about. But I also want to ask why, in clause 84, the reference is to the Crown and not the Government. I ask whether somebody could explain to me the difference between the Crown and the Government. Who is the Crown and who is the Government, and is that reference just a ruse? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ELastly, I also want to say this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223646b749e6c47c18ab3069bc5b7a69e\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Go on, treat yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee40c88e08ee4447ab93eee566d6b31d\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I will, actually. Nowhere in this bill is there a reference to the tangata whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00224a3c59752f154dd3b57eb951a2af5880\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a3c59752f154dd3b57eb951a2af5880\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I too rise to speak on Part 5, but I would first like to applaud the comments made by our esteemed colleague the Hon David Carter and for his drawing attention to, inter alia, clause 86 of this bill. Clause 86(1) provides: \u201C(1) Any document, notification, or summons required or authorised by or under this Act may be served\u2014(a) by delivering it personally to the person; \u2026\u201D, and, in those circumstances, it must be served at least 48 hours before the attendance of the witness is required. The Hon David Carter made the comment that 48 hours may not be sufficient time. The question was asked of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Annette King, and she gave the glib reply that if it were a summons, the person may not be a very good vet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI would like to raise the issue that a summons might be a summons to appear as an expert witness, or it might be in the form of a subpoena, in which case the vet may be a very, very good vet. If the vet is a very, very good vet, where he or she is being invited as an expert witness, that very, very good vet may, in fact, have a heavy time schedule. In the interests of small business and in keeping the economy of New Zealand and primary producers afloat, that vet may not be able to fit in, on 48 hours\u2019 notice, a hearing that might not necessarily be in the vicinity of Banks Peninsula, in the case of the Hon David Carter\u2019s vet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI again ask the Minister responsible for the bill whether he will reconsider the sufficiency and adequacy of prescribing that 48 hours\u2019 notice. It is very glib to say it is a minimum, but we all know that the minimum that prescribes the rule rather than the maximum as a matter of practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI think the Hon David Carter made a wonderful point, and that just shows people the depth and wisdom we have on this side of the Chamber. In fact, the more I get to know my parliamentary colleagues, the more I am impressed by them. Having visited Gisborne at the instigation of our spokesperson on agriculture, I was amazed and astounded at the ability of our spokesperson to be able to come to grips with all the issues regarding agriculture and to engage in meaningful conversation with those poor Gisborne growers of squash and tomatoes who have been hit by two civil defence events, and who have been met with a resounding silence and a decline of any form of relief from this Labour Government. That is appalling. If we look at the flow-on effects of that flood and the rain in Gisborne\u2014a region that contributes some $2 billion to our exports\u2014in terms of the economy of this country, then we realise the absolute importance of listening to farmers. So I cannot applaud enough the wisdom of our spokesperson on agriculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI move on to the question of fees. Clause 87 states that the council may from time to time prescribe fees. Unfortunately, we have to bring our minds back to the composition of this council. I have to confess that I have lost track of who the Labour appointment is to be, who the best candidate is. There are so many candidates. But my point is that three members of the New Zealand Veterinary Association are part of the composition of that council. That is three members out of a total national membership of something like 2,000 members. Three members have the power to impose unilaterally a fee on all other hard-working vets in New Zealand. I am just wondering about the efficacy of that actual prescription\u2014that is, the council does not even have to consult in relation to imposing those fees. There is no notice requirement. There is no opportunity for the hard-working vets who are not one of the three members of the Veterinary Council of New Zealand to be heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThere is absolutely no opportunity in this bill for those vets to challenge the fees, to seek justification of those fees, and to have a fair hearing. I think that that is a complete breach of natural justice. I am aware, of course, that the fees must be fair and reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022158d7154147c4ccebbf498768de31303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022158d7154147c4ccebbf498768de31303\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b39a31448d654edebb0eaca727f5f1ec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001141\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da2c674ba9a94bc58922bcc049b06a05\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001143\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter to schedule 1 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001144\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) of clause 1(1) the words \u201C3 years\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C2 years\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220846552490cc431c89b5502f9c454acf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 5; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001145\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bca4df47a1214611b809b56e234c3f92\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001147\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 2 in the name of the Hon Jim Anderton to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001148\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001149\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cce5afcded854df2b03093ced86e83d7\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00227139020ebda24d33a9298274b221a854\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227139020ebda24d33a9298274b221a854\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E It was with amusement that I read the schedules during the select committee inquiry into this legislation. I am reminded of them now because clause 1 of schedule 1 provides for the \u201CTerm of appointment or election\u201D, clause 3 provides for \u201CRemoval from office\u201D, and of course clause 7 provides for \u201CRemuneration and allowances of members and others\u201D. Of course, it dawned on members on this side of the Chamber who had been naming the likely Labour Party picks for this particular Veterinary Council\u2014I think we had a number of them. We had Pete Hodgson, David Benson-Pope, Rick Barker, Jim Sutton, and a whole lot of others, and of course Ann Hercus\u2019 name was raised. I note that it says here that a member appointed holds office. So any member appointed by this Government holds office for 3 years, or for a shorter period stated in the notice of appointment, and may be reappointed but may not be a member for 9 consecutive years. It dawned on members on this side of the Chamber that the Labour Party could decide to make ministerial appointments with those Ministers for whom the sun is setting on their careers. Many of them are looking at sitting on this council as an interim 3-year jaunt, so that in the 2008 election they might come back and have a crack at the seats they lost in 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn other words, how do we keep our backsides warm, and how do we keep the money coming through the door over the next 3 years? We want to toddle off and try something else, but because we lost our seats so dramatically we would like to have another chance in 2008. MPs come to mind. Rick Barker is one. How did Rick Barker lose the seat of Tukituki? How does one lose the seat of Tukituki, after holding it for about 20 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3797d511e994302a93e8c568e4598c1\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: 1951.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022098fb900f38c47de9f4007098b53e171\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Since 1951. How does one lose it after so many years? Rick Barker may wish to go on the Veterinary Council, and come back in 3 years\u2019 time. He could have a job in the interim, and run again for another seat. Jim Sutton is another. There is an opportunity for Jim Sutton to do something for 3 years, and perhaps run for another seat for the Labour Party in 3 years\u2019 time. David Parker did well\u2014he is another one\u2014and Russell Fairbrother, who lost the seat of Napier. I think that seat has been held for a good 40 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a0b76cbb63e44118375ebeceef773f0\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Since 1951.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c59df4617ea4e7ab90484f996dc84c8\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It has been held by the Labour Party since 1951. Russell Fairbrother, who was a rising star for the Labour Party, took the bitter pill of chairing the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee that diddled M\u0101ori and every other New Zealander. He was the fall guy for that, and we can see the sun setting on his career. So he might like to be on the Veterinary Council for a 3-year period, and then come back. Of course, there is an opportunity to stand again in another seat somewhere in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EOf course, there is the seat of Tauranga. I do not think Winston Peters can spend 3 years wandering around the world, drinking, and dining, and going to rugby games in Scotland. I do not know that that will be enough to entertain him. Perhaps he would like to sit on the Veterinary Council board, absolutely as a non-contributor, and that is what the council would like because I think vets would prefer to have laymen who do very little. Winston Peters could take that opportunity, and in 3 years\u2019 time he could perhaps stand again in Tauranga against Mr Clarkson and take the campaign to new lows. Perhaps he could dig up more dirt. We would go to new lows. There could be another court case where he could claim that other candidates had spent $14 billion on their campaign, when in fact they did not. So there are opportunities there for Labour Party members, when the sun is setting on their careers, to take up this 3-year term, to feel fulfilled in some sort of role in this country, and, perhaps, get some other opportunity to enter the Labour Party as the tide goes out on them in the 2008 election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMoving on from that, I want to talk about clause 3, \u201CRemoval from office\u201D, of schedule 1, which I will call the Prime Minister\u2019s clause. It states: \u201CThe Minister may remove a member from office by written notice to the member \u2026 at any time for any of the following reasons proved to the satisfaction of the Minister: (a) neglect of a member\u2019s duties; or (b) failure or inability to perform \u2026 or (c) misconduct by the member; or (d) bankruptcy.\u201D There is an opportunity for members of the Veterinary Council to be removed due to neglect, failure or inability to perform, misconduct by the member, or bankruptcy. I call that the Prime Minister\u2019s clause, simply because it is usually the Prime Minister\u2019s prerogative\u2014in this Government, for example\u2014to remove Ministers from office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe have seen it hundreds of times. We have not seen it with David Benson-Pope, but we have seen it with all sorts of other people. We saw Ruth Dyson\u2019s removal from office. We saw it with Lianne Dalziel, who I believe did not tell the full truth. She was removed from office. I do not believe that David Benson-Pope has been removed. No, he has not been removed from office. We saw it with Dover Samuels. He was removed from office, was he not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276b3825b585144f8a249ffaf99696d22\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What did he do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c6eccd789cd4a09b369637237734e62\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know what he did, but he was removed from office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227033f3b911a34e91987f790592c315cb\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Tamihere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be4ed1d5859644638a846704c20f2a80\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: John Tamihere was removed. Was David Benson-Pope removed? No, David Benson-Pope was not removed from office. John Tamihere was removed from office, I recall that. Phillida Bunkle was removed from office. Has David Benson-Pope been removed? No, he has not been removed. Phillida Bunkle was removed from office but I do not know that David Benson-Pope was removed. Did he neglect his duties as a member? Did he fail or be unable to perform? Was there misconduct on his part? Was he bankrupt? I do not know the answers to those questions, but I do know that \u201CThe Minister may remove a member from office by written notice to the member \u2026 at any time for any of the following reasons proved to the satisfaction of the Minister:\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI think it is a good thing that people can be removed from the Veterinary Council if they neglect their duties, if there is a failure or an inability to perform, if there is misconduct, or if there is bankruptcy. It should reflect the case of what has happened in this House, time after time, when we have seen people like Dover Samuels, Ruth Dyson, Lianne Dalziel, John Tamihere, and all sorts of others fall on their swords, and put up their hands to say that they surrender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI acknowledge Ruth Dyson for doing that. I thought it was honourable at the time, and I mean that genuinely. We hope that David Benson-Pope, in the same way, will say: \u201CListen, I surrender, I did something that was misconduct. It was some years ago. I misrepresented it in the House, I leaked documents to a Sunday newspaper in the weekend, I\u2019ve done all these things. I\u2019ve tried to cover up, I\u2019ve failed, and I surrender and I resign.\u201D I would like to hear that from David Benson-Pope before Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI range off the topic, so I come back to it. The National Party will support clause 3. We will be voting for this clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI move to clause 7, \u201CRemuneration and allowances of members and others\u201D, in schedule 1, \u201CFurther provisions applying to Council and its members\u201D. That clause talks about the entitlement of those Labour Party hacks who will be put on the Veterinary Council as the sun sets on their careers, and what they will receive in terms of funds, remuneration, and allowances for the services they perform. Now, it will likely not be some sort of performance remuneration, because they will effectively be lay members on the council. Subclause (2) states: \u201CThe Council may also approve payments for services to members of complaints assessment, judicial, or any other committees appointed by the Council in accordance with the same framework.\u201D I support the fact that there should be some sort of allowance, but the National Party will be watching very, very closely in order to ensure that this does not become some quasi-quango where Labour Party members settle for the rest of their careers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002216c038b5a67d41d08f08199017e72e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c038b5a67d41d08f08199017e72e04\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to speak to the title clause of the Veterinarians Bill. It is quite appropriate that this bill talks about being based on principles rather than being overly prescriptive. However, I must commend my fellow members around me in the Chamber for identifying many issues that are related to the devil in the detail around the bill. When we stop and think about the vital role that vets play in the New Zealand economy, we realise that it is very important for that body of people to be treated with the due respect and dignity it deserves. Vets have the responsibility of ensuring that we look after the animal welfare, biosecurity, and food safety of this nation. We have a platinum level of food safety, which enables us to export more than $12 billion worth of what we produce in this country, and we must say a big thankyou to the people who make up the dedicated body of veterinarians throughout the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EVets are stretched very widely and thinly; therefore, it is appropriate that we give serious consideration to them and that we give them the opportunity to be able to adapt to the circumstances they face today. When I see what is happening out in the rural areas, I am hugely concerned that we are bogged down in detail, because at the end of the day unless we adapt ourselves, much as is the case with regard to medical doctors in rural areas, we will find that we do not have the ability to respond to biosecurity incursions. We will fall into situations very much like the one that happened at Waiheke Island, where the television crews turned up before the vets or the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry authorities. So it is quite important that we recognise the importance of attracting and retaining capable young people as vets. I take great delight in looking at clause 13, where I see a lot more flexibility is given to vets, to the association, and to the Veterinary Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI must admit to being a bit surprised, when this bill was going through the Primary Production Committee before I became a member of it, that many vets came to me and complained about the arrogance and ignorance being exhibited by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry authorities and the Food Safety Authority. One point that I really would like to take up and take exception to was a comment around the fact that the amendments had to address the concerns of the Food Safety Authority in maintaining the biosecurity regime. It sought to establish the principle that a second-tier veterinary person with limited registration would undermine that regime. It used the example of the meat-processing industry going to a cheaper, lower form of scope of practice so that the industry could save costs. I point out that Dr Andrew McKenzie from the Food Safety Authority is himself a vet, and that although the wages of the meat inspectors are paid by the meat companies themselves, the inspectors are employed by the Government. Again I take it upon myself to point that out. When that issue goes back to the select committee, I think we should remove those erroneous connotations, so that the people who are at the coalface can deliver on the needs of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe trends within the veterinary sector are very concerning. What appeals today is urbanisation. We also see the attraction of vets back to small practices, and we find that more women are being attracted into the veterinary service today, so it makes huge sense to attract and retain vets from the United Kingdom or similar nations. The relationship that exists between New Zealand and northern hemisphere countries is very appropriate. On that basis we are able to capitalise on New Zealand\u2019s seasonality. We are able to attract those people here, and by virtue of being able to extend to them the opportunity to operate here for 12 months, with a right of renewal, we will not only attract them but also help to retain them. That is very, very appropriate. We realise the workload that falls on the shoulders of our vets in rural areas is alarming, when we consider the seasonality of lambing, calving, and things like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002203546a27a0574827808ecdd790e3c914\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203546a27a0574827808ecdd790e3c914\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak again on the Veterinarians Bill and to respond to some comments that suggested that perhaps this bill is not important to members of the National Party. We know that the Veterinarians Bill is very important to members of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f8e4cc61824acc82e668bcea1599bb\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Paramount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ce3a9f44cb4b238ed8cfeea1c3e273\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: It is paramount, thank you. What is the reason for the Veterinarians Bill being of paramount importance to the members of the National Party? It is obvious. All that members need to do is look along the row upon row of National MPs in this Chamber to see that there is a mix of the experienced and the fresh, keen National MPs who represent rural and provincial electorates up and down New Zealand, who have at heart the interests of rural and provincial people, of pet owners, of sheep farmers, of deer farmers, and of all sorts of agricultural sectors. All that members have to do is get out a map showing the results of the past election and they will see blue. They will see blue, starting at the top of the North Island, and in a great swathe all the way down the North Island. That blue tide continues down the South Island, taking in my own electorate, the rural and provincial electorate of Otago, and on down the country, all the way to Invercargill. So if it is to be suggested tonight\u2014as it has been\u2014that the National Party does not have a passionate concern about the Veterinarians Bill, then let us put that silly notion to rest right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBut it is not just as members of the National Party that we are concerned about the Veterinarians Bill; as individuals we are deeply, deeply concerned about the effects of the bill. I mentioned in the Committee this evening the sad demise of our dear dog Sally. Interestingly enough, Sally is not the only canine member of our family. We also had a littermate of Sally, a dog called Tommy. Tommy was a funny little dog, actually. [Interruption] I will tell members about Tommy because it is very relevant to the title and commencement of the Veterinarians Bill. Tommy was the cutest little puppy and he was the littermate of Sally. Sally is the dog I mentioned before, who loved to chase tennis balls. Unfortunately Sally met a very sad end on State Highway 1. We do not quite know who ran her over; it is something we have never been quite able to figure out. [Interruption] Well, there was a rumbling of wheels coming down State Highway 1. There was a swish of air and a number of cars\u2014one could almost call it a motorcade\u2014rumbling down State Highway 1. It was around the area of Waimate, perhaps a little further south, and the cars were travelling very fast\u2014and I can tell members that Sally paid the price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWhat does that have to do with the bill? I will tell members what it has to do with the bill. When our dear little dog Sally\u2014who loved to chase tennis balls, who would nip them with her dear little teeth, who would puncture tennis balls with her dear little teeth, and force them into her dear little mouth, because she was like that\u2014met her end on State Highway 1 under the wheels of a motorcade, we knew that we had to trust the vet. We delivered our little dog into the tender care of the vet, and we needed to know that, whatever the outcome for our dear little dog Sally, we had the provisions set out in the Veterinarians Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022934b324df1784edc929ebd60f8299a4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022934b324df1784edc929ebd60f8299a4c\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E The opportunity to comment on this particular stage in the parliamentary process of the Veterinarians Bill is simply not one to be ignored. Along with other members of the Committee, I am sure, I have just listened with great sadness to a story from a leading member of the National Party in connection with the death of Sally on State Highway 1. On one view of it such are issues that should not detain the Committee, but on another view they are incredibly important, because the care and welfare of animals touch us all so deeply. I do not think Dr Cullen has a heart that bleeds in any realistic way, but I offer to other members, apart from him, the sadness that assails one when confronted with the death of a loved pet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Veterinarians Bill is, of course, supported by National, but not without a measure of reservation. In the short time available to me I would like to detail some of the reservations that National members have expressed to me about this legislation. It is important legislation in the context of the aspirations that veterinarians have for this legislation, which will govern their rules of conduct and discipline. It is interesting just to pause for a moment, to reflect on the amount of legislation that has come through Parliament in the last period from occupational groupings that have sought to establish protections around their particular professions, industries, or trades. I reflect on the position of legislation in respect of lawyers and conveyancers. That legislation has languished because the Government is fearful of advancing it to a conclusion. What is the next step in that process? It is the Committee stage. But I am sure we will move on from that stage tonight in relation to the Veterinarians Bill, in order to see this important legislation passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe bill is structured in a way that would appeal to most veterinarians, because of the logic and symmetry that lies behind the work that Parliamentary Counsel has done. The bill deals most appropriately with the preliminary provisions, moving from issues of registration and practising certificates to complaints, disciplinary hearings, and issues touching the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, and then to a raft of miscellaneous provisions that seem to be so important in the setting up of disciplinary structures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the short time that remains available I would like to talk about the important provisions in Part 3 contained in clause 32, \u201CEvidence and privilege\u201D. For many people that might be a clause that would pass them by, but it should not. It should not, because of the critical importance of those provisions; under the heading \u201CEvidence and privilege\u201D, the significant issues are laid out for consideration by the Committee. It is there stated: \u201C(1) For the purposes of this Part, every person has the same privileges as a witness in a court of law in relation to\u2014(a) providing documents, things,\u201D\u2014and that is the word I want to come back to in a moment\u2014\u201Cor information to the Council in relation to a disciplinary hearing or a medical or competence assessment;\u201D. In the next paragraph another issue relates to the giving of evidence or answering of questions at a disciplinary hearing. I raise the question for consideration by the Minister, the Hon Jim Anderton, who, with pen poised and listening intently, I see, is about to make a substantial contribution. In relation to disciplinary proceedings, the significant issue is about why professional privilege should be permitted. After all, are not disciplinary proceedings about getting to the truth? Why is it necessary, I ask the Minister, for legal professional privilege to be attached to those issues? I sense from the Minister\u2019s thinking silence that he is about to offer a considered contribution to this debate on what is, I believe, a truly important matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022638ee2ea519242149f8830cc4de63547\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022638ee2ea519242149f8830cc4de63547\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to make some concluding comments about the Veterinarians Bill. Earlier today I picked up a marvellous document written by the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, dated March 2005, which has been very informative. The council has made some very good comments about why we need this bill, and I would like to go over those comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe council feels it needs to have the ability to assess the competency of a veterinarian, and that is absolutely as it should be. But I would like to comment about competency in relation to the complaints assessment committees, which have very wide-ranging powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that the competency clause of this bill is very similar to the competency clause in the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act, which I mentioned earlier. However, in the 1970s the medical community had to be dragged kicking and screaming through change. We had the Cartwright inquiry, where people had to really question their practices, question what they were doing, and then move on. Human beings naturally hate change, and the medical community undertook that change. It took time but it certainly did it. I would hope that the veterinary establishment can move much more quickly through change, and that it will not have to go through the pain and anguish the medical community went through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EAs far as complaints assessment committees are concerned, I have actually supported a number of colleagues undergoing review through tribunal hearings, and it is a very, very stressful process. I would urge\u2014I do not think there is anything of the sort in this bill\u2014that there be some compassion and support for those vets undergoing a hearing by a complaints assessment committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EFrom my experience of supporting colleagues who have gone through this process, I think that there is humanity and empathy within the Medical Council. I think the council has done an extremely good job. To review one\u2019s peers and question their competency is a difficult situation. It is basically a doctor\u2019s worst nightmare. It is such a litigious situation in New Zealand\u2014and it is becoming more and more so, which is not a bad thing; patients do have the right to question and examine\u2014that it is very difficult for doctors to go through this process. So I would urge that there be some sort of empathy support system for those vets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe next point the Veterinary Council makes is that this bill gives it flexibility in terms of accepting people for registration in New Zealand and in deciding what type of registration its members will work under. As I mentioned before, this is very important because we have a workforce issue and we have to be able to accept overseas vets of a similar training. We have to look out for emergency situations, such as foot-and-mouth. There needs to be flexibility so we can use other personnel who may not be fully qualified vets. Certainly, it could be just like a pandemic flu situation, where we may have to call on the retired medical workforce, people from other professions such as Plunket, or people who could be trained up quite quickly to help look after the sick in their homes, because the whole pattern of primary health care will change when we have the flu pandemic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe Veterinary Council recognises this factor and has alluded to it in its document, Veterinary Council of New Zealand Newsbrief, dated March 2005. The council recognises that it needs a greater measure of self-regulation: \u201C[This] will include fee setting, the ability to prescribe the minimum standards for registration and ongoing registration\u2014this would include things such as fitness to practise statements and possibly required continuing education if that was seen to be a particular issue needing attention.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI would like to talk about fee setting, because my colleagues have already alluded to the fact that they see fee setting as no more than just another Labour tax grab. Yes, we have to agree that that is the case. It is more money. Although the vets want self-regulation, they do need to be checked. There need to be some checks and balances. It is like any regulation\u2014there needs to be some balance, and we have to wonder where that balance will come from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EAs members know from my previous speeches, I am very concerned about our workforce issues. Earlier this year I wrote an article in the New Zealand Medical Journal on breast-cancer screening in New Zealand. I am very concerned about workforce issues\u2014there are a good couple of paragraphs on it in that article.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b36c6553da914653b007a8038b793776\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b36c6553da914653b007a8038b793776\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to join with the sentiments expressed by my colleague Dr Jackie Blue, particularly in relation to workplace practices and habits. During an earlier discourse this evening by Mr Field, I think it was, I was asked to stick to the subject of the bill. I speak in favour of the bill, particularly in respect of the significance of workplace conditions for vets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EVeterinarians are a fine body of people and an essential part of the well-being of our agricultural industry. They are hard-working people, but in fact they have not been mentioned much during the debate tonight. We have talked about dogs, parakeets, cockatoos, a dog called Tommy, chooks, and the odd pussycat, but what of vets\u2014those fine people making diagnoses without the benefit of intelligent verbal response from those they are keen to help and make well? It is a bit like question time in this House, where on this side we put up with ministerial mumblings and mealy-mouthed responses to questions, leaving us to guess what on earth was meant by the answers. Vets are obliged to commune with their patients in silence. The training, though, that they engage in is prolonged and thorough, and\u2014and I am being quite serious\u2014the demands on large animal veterinary practitioners is often severe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c281b12b387a46e68b69efe9d7d14608\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, what\u2019s going on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a49014788ca4e58b87e4b8a9197d4f4\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member might not know, because he might think that farming is just something that happens so that it can be taxed and so that farmers\u2019 wealth can be distributed to that member\u2019s friends and supporters. But in fact vets work extremely hard for their money. They undergo periods of huge stress in farming. I happen to have been a practitioner in farming myself, and I know what it is like in the spring. I know what it is like when farmers are very busy. For a vet coming out of veterinary school\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffbafc484bdf4b6981957ba8594f7b25\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Why is your tie inside your shirt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ac538eca074df9a19a56564aa3a744\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I am sorry to have distracted him and caused a break in his concentration, but I thank him very much for pointing it out. I feel much better now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EYoung vets coming out of training and going into practice are often placed in the position of going on to farms where farmers are already under stress and having to deal with stressful situations, but those vets do not have extensive training in managing the business of being vets. They are simply trained to treat the animals. So workplace conditions and support for vets in new practice are most important. I know that in parts of the country vets have a buddy system, whereby new vets go out with more experienced ones. But, again, that is limiting the resource immediately available to farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI support this bill, particularly those aspects of it that provide support for veterinarians, so that we can\u2014[Interruption] I beg the member\u2019s pardon. I thought he was saying something intelligent. I paused but, no, it did not happen. It was a hope\u2014a false hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac81d03f11a4f2d847bde4812d4ae28\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It was in English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3fa344582c4ae7873c7ccbd26e16ee\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but it was a hoax. I am sorry about that. So I support the bill, particularly in those areas in which it provides better working conditions for young veterinarians going into the field, so that they can do their job to the best of their ability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002234b9fe52f8aa4faf894b102a6c04b62a\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d142b33815764150bc9889d10e6db619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d142b33815764150bc9889d10e6db619\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Veterinarians Bill be now read a third time. This bill was tabled in the House in December 2004. It had its first reading on 17 February 2005 and was referred to the Primary Production Committee on that day, with the instruction that the committee present its final report before 14 June 2005. The select committee reported the bill back to the House on 14 June 2005. The bill has now had its second reading and has passed through the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe veterinary profession makes a significant contribution to the New Zealand economy and society. In the livestock-based industries veterinarians are involved both on and off the farm. Veterinarians play a vital role in providing assurance to domestic and international consumers that our livestock-based food products are safe to consume. Many are also involved in biosecurity risk management. Urban veterinarians provide an important service, of course, to the owners of the many thousands of companion animals and pets in New Zealand society. Many people living in towns and cities know their veterinarian as well as, if not better than, their family doctor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe veterinarian profession, through the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, initially sought this bill. The profession wanted a more modern and flexible legislative framework, both to reflect the changing nature of the profession and to enable more overseas trained veterinarians to practise in New Zealand while still maintaining the high standard of practice as required under the current legislation, the Veterinarians Act 1994. The bill provides for that. I might say, as an aside, that it was clear to parliamentary counsel when they came to writing the bill itself that the former Act, the 1994 Act, was in fact outmoded and needed to be modernised, and that is why so much change was made in the drafting process. I think that has served the veterinarians and the bill itself\u2014and the clarity of it\u2014well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill provides the council with a greater amount of flexibility in carrying out the purpose of the bill\u2014that is, to protect the public interest by aiming to ensure that veterinarians are competent to practise. The bill also provides for a greater degree of flexibility for the council in determining which veterinary training institutions and qualifications it will recognise for full registration. Those persons who do not hold a qualification recognised by the council but who have obtained a qualification of at least 4 years\u2019 duration can seek registration after passing or completing a council-prescribed examination or an approved postgraduate training programme. Apart from that added flexibility, however, this will also encourage more overseas-trained veterinarians to seek registration in New Zealand, which will, hopefully, ease the current shortage of veterinarians in rural practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EAnother significant change in this legislative framework is the limited registration provision. This provision enables veterinarians who are highly trained in one area but who do not have an all-round veterinary science training to work in New Zealand in their area of expertise. This would help some New Zealand employers who are looking for a particular type of veterinary expertise to find suitable employees more readily. Some overseas veterinary schools are now already offering specialisation in certain areas of practice before a student completes the full veterinary degree. The new limited registration provision would enable such graduates to seek registration in New Zealand, whereas, under the old legislative regime they could not have done so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThis bill is designed, as far as is possible, to be future-proof in terms of the changes in veterinary training that are expected in coming years, some of which are already taking place. The bill also allows the council the flexibility to set its own fees, enabling it more effectively to match its financial resources with its fluctuating needs. I could not understand, I must say, some of the discussion that took place during the Committee stage, when National Party members criticised the Veterinary Council for charging fees to manage its own affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EWhile the bill introduces more flexibility for the council, it also ensures that a number of key safeguards for veterinarians and consumers are in place. The requirement to consult affected parties is one such safeguard. For instance, when deciding whether to issue limited registration the council would have to develop scopes of practice for which limited registration would be permitted. Such scopes of practice are to be developed in consultation with relevant statutory agencies, such as the New Zealand Food Safety Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003ETo maintain confidence in our veterinary service the council needs powers to ensure that veterinarians maintain their high standard of competence. The bill enables the council to prescribe and implement minimum standards for continued registration. The bill also introduces a range of options for the council to use when dealing with competency and disciplinary matters\u2014for example, the council\u2019s ability to impose conditions of practice on a veterinarian\u2019s registration and/or practising certificate. I consider that this bill strikes an effective balance between giving more powers and flexibility to the Veterinary Council and including the necessary safeguards to protect the public and the national interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI wish the Veterinary Council of New Zealand well in implementing its new legislative framework. I expect it will serve New Zealand\u2019s veterinary professionals and their clients well, both now and in the future. I believe they will all benefit from this bill, and I commend its passage to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb6e8e08b74045e79fe34d8ebcace87c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb6e8e08b74045e79fe34d8ebcace87c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As we draw the debate on the Veterinarians Bill to a close, National will, of course, support this legislation. I have to say that after the contribution both through the select committee process and during the superb debate we have had over the last hour or two in the Committee of the whole House, this legislation will be far better for the interest that has been taken in it by National members of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAt the outset I want to correct the Minister, Jim Anderton, who claimed that there was criticism of the Veterinary Council from this side of the House, because that is absolutely incorrect. In fact I say at the outset that because of the huge input, both from the Veterinary Council and the Veterinary Association, I am confident we are passing legislation that will stand the industry in very good stead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting that this legislation left the House in a mess after its first reading. As the Hon Jim Anderton said, that was indeed 17 February 2005. We were given a report-back date of 14 June, and the Primary Production Committee met diligently with assistance from the Veterinary Council and the association, to make sure we reported it back by 14 June. It is not the National Opposition\u2019s fault that it has subsequently sat on the Order Paper for a full 6 months before finally, after much begging and gnashing of teeth, the Government has seen fit to pass the legislation almost at the latest possible date for it to be of any use to the profession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI commented that the legislation left the House in a mess, and there is no doubt about that. Anybody pursuing the bill will see that the legislation was dramatically changed during the select committee process. Why that was necessary is that the previous Minister of Agriculture, the Hon Jim Sutton, who was responsible for drafting this legislation in the first instance, absolutely failed to consult with the profession of the vets. That is just an arrogant and stupid thing for that Minister to have done. The Veterinary Council and the Veterinary Association, on many occasions, wanted to be involved with the original drafting of the legislation, but because the previous Minister, the Hon Jim Sutton, was so out of touch with his portfolio area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e81b9347664dbbb942adb5a9215d9e\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: And his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a7ed6e9b1234f2ebabdd3e6bcd4678a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he is certainly out of touch with his seat. Look what happened there. I say that it was a failing on the part of the Minister that he was not prepared to listen to sensible contributions. Consequently when the bill came before the select committee, one of the things the committee agreed to do, with all parties on the committee being responsible for this decision\u2014but it is a technique that the Primary Production Committee has now used on a couple of occasions\u2014was that we actually got the various bodies, in this case the Veterinary Association and the Veterinary Council, to come in and work through with us and the officials. It was a lot of hard work by the select committee, but during that process we have now been able to present back legislation that I think is vastly improved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to pay tribute to all members of that select committee. Of course, we had Janet Mackey as the deputy chair, a member who has now retired from this House, but a member who worked diligently. She was the Labour Party deputy chair of that select committee. She worked diligently with us to try to improve the legislation. Earlier we had a debate about which Labour Party lackey might have been a suitable lay appointment on the Veterinary Council, and her name was missed. So I want to take the opportunity of suggesting that there is a person who has actually been through the select committee process with this legislation. I think she would be a very good appointment. I realise that she is not in favour with the sisterhood at the moment, so therefore she may not be considered by level nine of the Beehive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI pay tribute to the work of Clayton Cosgrove. He did not interfere with the select committee process much. He came along, had not studied his papers\u2014although that was typical of the way Clayton Cosgrove worked. He brought along his mail, his correspondence, and his local Christchurch Press, so he did not interfere with the process, and that made it a lot easier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI saw Harry Duynhoven earlier in the House today. He came over to me and said he wished he could take a call in the debate, but he had been instructed not to. So I tell Harry Duynhoven that he made a valuable contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI move now to two further members who are no longer part of this new Parliament, Gerry Eckhoff from the Otago area, a former ACT member, and Ian Ewen-Street, a very valuable member of the Green Party on that select committee\u2014in fact the only valuable member of the Green Party I have ever managed to meet. Of course, Phil Heatley gave us assistance, and he has been a tremendous help in the debate tonight. The Hon Dover Samuels was available to take calls in the House earlier in the evening but has not been allowed to make a contribution. Tariana Turia made a valuable contribution when she was there, and finally Doug Woolerton. He was the one who delicately broached the subject tonight of Bianca, the cockatoo\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221988f60a005a42619c7af615aa0ee45e\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Sulphur-crested!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ce1533236e74a9f95cfbd6bbff02629\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: A sulphur-crested cockatoo\u2014I do not know my birds as well as I perhaps should. But I thank Doug Woolerton for his humour and involvement in the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI did move the odd amendment through the night to try to see whether we could make the bill even better. I must admit that my success rate was not very high. I thought that in the spirit of Christmas the odd amendment might have been passed with a bit of acclamation from the Labour Party, but no, the meanness displayed to my amendments\u2014well, I guess we have to learn to live with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBut we have certainly had a very spirited debate. We have seen members of the National Party caucus make substantial contributions. We have heard about a number of affiliations that the National Party caucus has with the profession, and the role that the vets play in our society. We had the excellent contribution from Jo Goodhew, who succeeded the previous lacklustre Minister of Agriculture, Jim Sutton. She was able to tell us all about her cat, Hogan. Then we had Jacqui Dean, the new member for Otago, giving a spirited description of Sally the dog\u2014the dog that used to chase tennis balls. We forgot to ask whether it was tennis balls around Bayfield High School, but I think certainly a number of tennis balls were chased by Sally, who met a very unfortunate end underneath a motorcade on State Highway 1. But I do take the opportunity of stating to the House that Jacqui Dean did not go so far as to say it was \u201Cthe motorcade\u201D that received such important attention from the media this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe veterinary profession is extremely important to New Zealand, and that is why I am pleased that the House has spent a considerable amount of time on this legislation. This country is totally dependent on agriculture. That is a fact that many on the Labour Party side of the House tend to miss, but we are totally dependent on agriculture. For agriculture to work well in this country we need a sound and strong veterinary profession. I express concern in the closing stage of this debate about the number of vets available to practice in New Zealand. We know we are qualifying a lot of vets, but many younger people are taking the opportunity to earn substantially more money overseas and pay less tax, and who can blame them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBut a particular area of concern to me is that we, as parliamentarians, need to keep a note on how many vets actually choose rural practice. Because if we see a decline in rural practice by veterinarians, as we have seen a decline in rural practice by the medical profession, then that puts our economy under considerable risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to conclude by paying special thanks to the role of the Veterinary Council\u2014Julie Haggie, its chief executive officer, and Ron Gibson, its chair. I thank those people for their contribution and advice during the select committee process. I note that Julie is still in the House, having been here throughout the total debate and taking an interest. Finally I thank Murray Gibb, the chief executive of the New Zealand Veterinary Association, for his advice to the select committee. We have succeeded in getting a much-improved piece of legislation that I think will stand the veterinary profession in good stead for a number of years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00225a5115a5ea084920a02b3becce7fb8a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a5115a5ea084920a02b3becce7fb8a9\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in the third reading of this bill, just as I did in a previous reading. I certainly also listened with great interest to the contribution of members of Parliament during the Committee stage of the bill. I think, for the sake of those who are listening to this House tonight, that it is very important to focus on what this bill is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe Veterinarians Bill repeals the Veterinarians Act 1994, which, among other things, sets out the requirements to register as a veterinarian in New Zealand. That very, very important issue is addressed by this bill. The legislation is to be implemented by the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, and the bill aims to take a principled approach to the regulatory framework for veterinarians rather than a more prescriptive approach. The approach is intended to provide greater flexibility for the council to implement the legislative framework. I note that the key provisions of the bill relate to the qualification requirement for veterinarians, the registration processes for and categories of veterinarians, the disciplinary powers of the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, and I note the commentary on the bill focuses on the main issues examined in it. I will talk later on about the very critical importance of vets to New Zealand and the importance surrounding that branding issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI was personally touched by the sincerity and focus that members of the Opposition had, particularly in terms of naming potential appointees to the Veterinary Council. Although I think it is a compliment that they must have such a high view of the members they were naming, I do think it is very important that we should, of course, look further afield than members of this House. I thank those who nominated me as a potential member of the council for their kind words and kind thoughts, but I think we do need to look very extensively for potential appointees. I think a lot of people outside this Parliament could do the job equally as well as people like myself, if not absolutely better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI think the Opposition may wish to reflect on the people it did nominate, because I can obviously think of a number of people in the Opposition who may have time on their hands later in this term. It is a contribution, for example, that Dr Brash could possibly make later in the term, in view of his vast array of skills and experiences. He, of course,\u2014and I think this is obvious and I predict this here in Parliament, in the closing stages of the year 2005\u2014will have time on his hands. I do think we on the Government side of the House will certainly be going to the Minister to say that would be a fitting role for Dr Brash, in terms of his service to our nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI thought the contribution made by the member for Otago\u2014I have not heard her speak much in this House before; I know she has spoken, obviously, but I was not in the Chamber at the time\u2014touched on a very important and valid point, which is the role of the family pet. We often underestimate just how meaningful and how important pets are. People do genuinely love their animals and they are an integral part of the family. We look at other people and we say that they are mad; we wonder how they could like a dog as much as they do. But, having had a dearly loved German shepherd in our family that we kept alive as long as possible until the vet came and said that it was time for our dog to exit this life, I can certainly relate to the member for Otago\u2019s sincerity and anguish. She highlighted just how important the family pet is, and I was personally quite moved by her commentary on and wonderful insight into and observation of just how meaningful pets are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI have been with my kids when the Siamese cats and the German shepherd had to go, and they were taken along to the vet for the injection. That is a skill in human relations and sometimes we underestimate it, but I think it is a critical part of a vet\u2019s empathy and training. Obviously we want children to be brought up to have a love of and a care for animals. I think that is a reflection of their humanity. I do not underestimate how important pets are. I want to go on record as thanking the member for Otago for her very good contribution and observation. Of course, she highlighted the actual importance of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI want to move on and take the opportunity to thank the Primary Production Committee for its good work. I think, sadly, to a degree the chair of the committee, perhaps unwittingly, got into some point-scoring, which diminished the wonderful work he did. I will pay him a compliment. I know he is not an electorate member, and certainly he will have time at his disposal. I understand that the member stood in the Banks Peninsula electorate. I have looked at the map. I saw that electorate did not go blue; it is a very red electorate. But certainly I will be gracious and compliment the chair of the committee, and also the other members of it. I thank my good mate Clayton Cosgrove for the wonderful work he did, and for his focus. I also thank Doug Woolerton. He is a very good member of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003ECertainly I do compliment the chair on his very, very gracious words with regard to the deputy chair of the committee in the previous term, who is our good mate on the Government side of the House\u2014and I think on all sides of the House\u2014Janet Mackey. Yes, there is possibly a role for her on the Veterinary Council. Whether Janet Mackey would be willing to play a role on it is food for thought. She was, in my view, a very good example of an excellent member who covered a huge geographical area in her electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI say, without being at all patronising or condescending\u2014which I am not\u2014to the Opposition members, that if they want to learn how to be excellent, wonderful constituency members of Parliament and how to cover areas with a huge geographical spread, they should look no further than to Janet Mackey. She had an exceptionally down-to-earth approach. She was very, very close to the people who did not have that view. I say to the new Opposition members, and also to Sandra Goudie, that they should stop and watch to make sure they do not get a born-to-rule mentality. If I can give some advice to the new members of the National Party, in the context of this bill and of the contributions they made on it, it is not to get a born-to-rule mentality. Janet Mackey is a very, very good role model for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIn the time that I have left, I want to say it is absolutely important that we clearly keep the brand, if one likes, of veterinarians. There is an item in the report about branding and focus. This is why I agree with previous speakers. I represent an electorate that is at the heart of the Waikato, which is a major export and rural agricultural area. Of course, as a member of Parliament for that area I am deeply interested in this bill. I want to join other members in complimenting the Veterinary Council of New Zealand and the Veterinarians Association. They do excellent work, and they have a very, very important role in this country, which literally lives or dies by its ability to produce and export products that come from our farms and from the land. I think that this bill is very, very important. I know that during the Committee stage all members treated this bill with absolute seriousness, because it is a very important bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI say to the Opposition members that if they want to have a good advocate for rural people, quite frankly Richard Worth, the previous member for Epsom, may leave some members for dead. I found more passion in his contribution than in the contributions of some of the so-called provincial members. Richard Worth is from an inner-city seat. I compliment him tonight. Frankly, some of the newer members of the National Party could learn from Richard Worth\u2019s passion and interest. He made a very, very credible and very interesting contribution during the Committee stage. I think it is the culmination of his esteemed legal career that he should arrive in this House as an Opposition spokesperson and make the contribution he did on the Veterinarians Bill. I compliment Richard Worth on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI will close by saying that being a member of the Veterinary Council would be a good role for Dr Brash. It would be an honour for him, and I will be promoting that later in this term when he is looking for a new job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00229adfaebd15084bb6b27b9373073f0333\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229adfaebd15084bb6b27b9373073f0333\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I think those scathing comments from Martin Gallagher about Moana Mackey\u2019s performance in the last election in losing her mother\u2019s seat were unnecessary. I think he could have been much more charitable to Moana Mackey about her attempt to win that seat. This has been very much cross-party legislation, on which the parties have worked together\u2014National has voted with Labour on most of it tonight\u2014and for him to attack not National members but members within his own caucus is entirely unnecessary. I have a lot of respect for Martin Gallagher, and I am disappointed about that. Anne Tolley did a good job, but that should not take anything away from Moana Mackey, who genuinely ran for that seat, and who wanted to represent those people. To compare her with her mother is entirely unfair and unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EOn the other hand I would like to acknowledge my colleagues\u2014not cut them down, as that member chose to do with his colleagues. I acknowledge four colleagues in particular\u2014and I do not intend to cause offence to those whom I leave out. This is their first urgency, and they have been debating the Veterinarians Bill since roughly 4 o\u2019clock. Those members are Jacqui Dean, Jackie Blue, Jo Goodhew, and Kate Wilkinson, and they have been involved in every single\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274e47a000cb1493c8ceae1fbce6f47ea\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What about Chester Borrows?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219780096141c45969cc689fc1b249ada\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am coming to the gentlemen. Those four, in particular, have been involved in every single part of the bill. I have kept a record, and they have risen to debate every part. [Interruption] I will be tabling the record. They contributed as they saw fit, and I acknowledge them for that\u2014we really appreciate it. They also took the time to laugh at all our jokes\u2014and they are doing it again\u2014and we have appreciated that, and I would like to acknowledge them. Of course, Chris Tremain, the member for Napier, has been here, and Chester Borrows, the wonderful member for Whanganui. We have been surrounded by support, and I guess David Carter and I are quite overwhelmed. It has been quite wonderful, and I thank those members very much for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe would like to acknowledge the Veterinary Association, also, and the Veterinary Council, which contributed so much to the legislation\u2014of course, not tonight in this Chamber but at the select committee. They were there, we consulted them, and we brought in their experience. Clearly, most of us are not vets\u2014the Hon Pete Hodgson is the only member of the House who was a veterinary surgeon\u2014so that advice was much appreciated, and also, of course, the advice of the Meat Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe do need the bill to pass this evening. As David Carter pointed out, it has languished on the Table of the House for 6 months. The Primary Production Committee worked very, very hard from February of this year through to June to move it, and for it then to languish on the Order Paper for 6 months has been quite soul-destroying for the Veterinary Association and the Veterinary Council, which wanted us to get on with it to ensure that they could register vets for next year, instead of having to wait a further 18 months or 2 years. But finally we have forced the Government to put the bill through under urgency, and we are delighted with the outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIssues in the bill that we challenged at the select committee included, particularly, the limited registration criteria. The Minister of Agriculture was hell-bent on making sure we could have South African vets, United States vets, Canadian vets, and European vets come into the country. We welcome them, too. Labour is hell-bent on bringing them into the country, but it does not acknowledge all the other professionals, including vets, who train here but leave to go overseas\u2014600 a week\u2014because of the high taxes, the political correctness, the compliance costs, and the headaches they face in practising here. Vets are leaving New Zealand. We have invested in them and they are going overseas. Architects are leaving, doctors are leaving, teachers are leaving, nurses are leaving\u2014everybody is leaving. It is only the loyal National Party members who are willing to stay and fight. We see that all the time. Vets are leaving, too. In the bill, the Minister is trying to encourage vets from other nations to come over and serve our rural communities, and our inner-city communities with small-animal surgeries, yet he is ignoring the plight of the vets who train here. The National Party makes a plea to the Government to look after our own, as well as looking after the interests of those whom we are seeking to attract to this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational will support the bill, as it has done through all its stages, and I commend it to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u002290e67dcfcb1c48adb995e722ae2b8dd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290e67dcfcb1c48adb995e722ae2b8dd2\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to rise to speak in the third reading debate on the Veterinarians Bill. The bill, of course, repeals the Veterinarians Act 1994. I guess I see things slightly differently from the Minister in charge of the bill, Jim Anderton, when we talk about where the bill has come from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe history of the bill, as I understand it, is that it went to the Primary Production Committee in a pretty disrespectful state. The reason for that was that the sector had not been consulted when the bill was drafted. The former Minister of Agriculture, Jim Sutton, had not sought the views of the sector. In fact, when we look at the document, and at the many, many changes within it, we see that the clauses of the bill with no changes are the clauses that survived from the last legislation. Therefore, there was no need to consult the sector on that part\u2014it was already a done deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe primary production sector is very, very important to New Zealand, and the veterinarians are very important to that primary production sector. But the very Minister who was involved, the then Minister of Agriculture, did not seek the views of the sector when he brought the bill to the House. After that, the bill went to the Primary Production Committee, and I certainly commend its work under the very able chairmanship of National\u2019s Hon David Carter. An enormous amount of work was put in. One only has to look at the pages of the document to see the work that went into making the bill fit to come into the House again today. Thank goodness the veterinarians will get what they want. They will see the bill passed by Christmas, because we will certainly support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EWe have already heard about the blue tide that has swept through New Zealand, and we see many new members from rural provincial New Zealand in the House tonight who are supporting the bill. I just remind those present that Part 2, which deals with registration, was a very important part because it sought the ability for us to encourage overseas vets to come and practise in New Zealand. Why do we need overseas vets practising in New Zealand? It is quite simple: many of the registered vets from New Zealand are leaving our shores. We know about the more than 600 New Zealanders who go to Australia each week. We know about those highly skilled, highly qualified people. Well, amongst them are vets. We know that those vets are going because of high taxes, compliance costs, and complications like the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. We know there are approximately 500 rural vets. My own vet is married to a German vet, and I understand that they cannot wait to see the passing of the bill, because they work in rural provincial New Zealand and they know the problems involved in getting extra vets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EWe know that the submissions to the Primary Production Committee numbered about 10. Massey University certainly took the time to submit that it was in support of the bill, and it gave its ideas in the submission process. We also know that half of the submissions were from pet owners, which brings me to Part 3. The provisions in this very important part mean that pet owners can be sure that they will have a process by which to address any concerns they may have. This afternoon and this evening we heard about Bianca, we heard about my very own Hogan, and we heard about Gee, Sally, and Tommy. Again, I reiterate what I said before: the reasons we hear those emotive stories about our pets is that pets are second only to children when it comes to the emotional needs of the owners, or parents. So we must have legislation that clearly sets out how we can keep them safe, and how we can be sure that there is a process to follow if we feel that our pets, just like our children, are not safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E Part 4 deals with the make-up of the Veterinary Council and what it is charged with doing. The council examines, registers, advises the Minister on issues like education, talks to other countries about reciprocal arrangements\u2014and by golly, we need those if we are going to encourage vets to register in New Zealand\u2014hears complaints, and prescribes standards. We heard that there are some layperson vacancies on the council. I want to put forward my own nomination for a layperson vacancy. The Hon Jim Sutton has indicated that he is looking for a job, so who better? He has an agricultural background and he probably has some understanding of what to expect from a vet. [Interruption] And Ann Hercus\u2014the council does need two laypeople. I also note that some disenchanted National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) markers will be looking for something to keep them interested after they have decided never to mark again. [Interruption] Road markers? That would be pretty sad, after marking NCEA exams, but it would be much simpler and much easier, and at least they would know what the rules were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I just say that this bill is very, very important to the National Party members gathered here, to the veterinarians of New Zealand, and to New Zealand as a country, because we are so dependent upon the primary production sector. We know that the shortages of vets are in the rural areas. It is vitally important that this bill gets the attention it deserves, that we get it through by Christmas, and that we can say that this is a good deal done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e43683ea0f4e44b5b0384f74e30b2c95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e43683ea0f4e44b5b0384f74e30b2c95\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill. Veterinary science is a remarkable profession, and what a profession it will be as a consequence of vets enjoying the benefits of Labour\u2019s remarkable student loan scheme. It is hard to imagine a more meaningful contribution that members on this side of the House have made to that profession. However, in thinking about that profession I would say that it is necessary also to expedite the return of the kindergarten teaching profession, because there is much work to be done amongst the speakers from the Opposition we have heard tonight. They need that sort of assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Opposition has shown a great deal of interest this evening in the role and importance of a vet. Of course, I am reminded of the role a vet plays in putting down the family pet. We have heard a great many accounts of cats and dogs, but when I look across the Chamber I wonder what pet National members are preparing to put down in their obsession with this bill. Is it an English Pointer? Is it Mr English, who, upon hearing the guns during shooting, would flee, constantly stiff and apprehensive? Or is it Mr Brownlee, who is living proof that climate change is dislocating a range of species\u2014not the least of which is the beached walrus? What role will the vet have there? Let me continue. Perhaps it is a Blue Heeler.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4ac8798dfe2461fbefadd3ef6b3400c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The whole House knows that I am a very sensitive member, and I understand that Mr Jones was attempting to insult me with his comments. Apparently\u2014according, in particular, to the ACT party\u2014I am also a very slow member, but I do not understand what Mr Jones was saying. I wonder, Mr Deputy Speaker, whether you could indulge the House by allowing Mr Jones an extension to his 10 minutes, so that he might explain his insult and so that I can feel the full brunt of his attack upon me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af46b3c85f71447593f165eaa74b0bd0\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Brownlee. He was entitled to raise the point of order if he felt offended. I think he is drawing a long bow, really, to think that Mr Jones made the comment to him or about him, even though Mr Jones might have meant it to be that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220222eaf3a75d49f983bcb375d9c5f7fe\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The man just stood up and said that I was a beached walrus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd7dae3e131344c0b3bf48fb9e8e4994\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, he did not. I heard it, and I say that he did not. But I am prepared to accept the member\u2019s point of order. I do not want it to continue on. I do not accept that Mr Jones made the comment about the member or to the member but, if the member is offended, I have no doubt that Mr Jones will withdraw it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aefa027016e3413d9caa1aad43102ede\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not offended; I am simply in need of further explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225b99dff845840be9f87c87fa7e80643\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: There was no intention to offer offence. Firstly, the walrus was a fictional thing. [Interruption] Oh, I can hear the Tauranga tugger\u2014or is it tigger? The reference to the walrus can hardly have been offensive, because a walrus is not indigenous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet me continue on with the other roles that vets obviously have, according to the discussions we have heard this evening. Well, my fellow representative from Whangarei, Mr Heatley, during the course of the evening generated some heat but precious little light in relation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206d992fab30547bbad780d50e694eff4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is debating material, and there are outrageous claims. I tell Mr Jones that for him to say that he is a representative of Whangarei is an outrageous claim. He is a Labour Party list lackey, and that is what he should describe himself as. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225346a81022614a399c7da1de2b28a1d6\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The tugger has an unusual interest in the crotch, but more about that at a later date\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229472289c56cd46ef8675fe222782bcb8\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720b0ad502ee4ebe94460269ca2afa93\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just say to Mr Jones that I think we have had enough references to members in the House. Those references should not be made that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de1298d4985d43c5b4b4ba28ddcb6844\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: We have heard a number of references this evening about the importance of the veterinary profession. Obviously, Labour is of the view that this bill advances vets and protects the brand, unlike the view of a host of members of the Opposition, who historically through their policies, have undermined the brands of guilds, trades, and professions. Through the removal of the appropriate recognition and the necessary training and funding, those trades and professions have degenerated over the last 10 years. That is why this bill is an overdue improvement on the way in which those things were treated in the early to mid 1990s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe bill also refers to how it will be necessary to improve the number of professionals working in areas that are not represented purely by members of the National Party. Those areas are also very well known to Labour and represented by us. This bill is a good idea and will not only improve the prospect of our having more vets\u2014indeed, that will occur through our student loans policy\u2014but also provide an opportunity for those who come from overseas to have their professional qualifications and talents, perhaps gained from other parts and warmer climes, recognised. Those qualifications and talents will be used in the pursuit of animal health and rural infrastructure and, in general, contribute to the pastoral economy, which is something this party is proud to have driven fantastically well. Opposition members will hear a great deal more about that over the next 3 years, as they sit very lonely in a neglected part of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b864e4288f034e949d46bc69c68150c2\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It won\u2019t take that long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edcdd4c8edc746d39944e2b6ba40449f\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Carter says that it will not take that long, but this evening we have been subjected to extremely long and tedious speeches that show that the Chihuahua of the House from Piako did not understand that a very well-trained pet knows when to respond to a question. If National members had not pursued the strategy they pursued this evening, we would have had question time tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere are a number of doctors in the National Party, as well, and I am particularly interested in the reference that the proposed legislation makes to emulating the qualifications framework and process that doctors go through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12 midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121382a0398c9ed74729b7f810a2c2d77482001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f70c7b68a6924e0b83c0e1277ecdf8c2\u0022\u003ETuesday, 13 December 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f66f87e7c6b45dcbfa7a459dc241524\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 15 December 2005)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ccac7a268c4d460e9796b6aca23841c1\u0022\u003EVeterinarians Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc6f4a4a02d84317a92bb60da30029b6\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022736191d1ae574896ad194684ec8201ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022736191d1ae574896ad194684ec8201ab\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Greetings, Mr Assistant Speaker\u2014meri Kirihimete! Ng\u0101 mihi nunui ki a koe te tangata e h\u0101pai ana i te reo M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei taha o te Whare, i te kaha koretake o t\u0113r\u0101 taha m\u014D te reo M\u0101ori. Me mihi ahau ki a koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E [An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[Merry Christmas! Absolutely huge acknowledgments to you, the person who promotes the M\u0101ori language on this side of the House, because that side is absolutely hopeless with it. I really have to tip my hat to you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI do need to redeem myself slightly; some members are endeavouring to change the deep prejudice and the deep bias that emerged during the election campaign. One imagines that they are practising te reo M\u0101ori so that they can apply it to the pets they own, which might need the attention of the Veterinarians Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut I think I need to make a small improvement on last night because, unwittingly, I did demean the animal kingdom. I made the unwise observation of comparing a number of the members opposite with members of the animal kingdom. I did warn about guarding the crotch, in terms of the \u201CTigger from Tauranga\u201D, and I did warn about a bird\u2014a \u201CPeachey Parrot\u201D\u2014causing near death to itself by pecking itself in the back; I will not continue in that vein. However, the Veterinarians Bill\u2014[Interruption] I am not entirely sure whether they are edible, but certain members will be on a very raw diet on the other side of the House, so who knows what they will consume. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe family pet\u2014who, in the early months of next year, will no doubt need the assistance of the vet to be put down\u2014sits on the front bench. Actually, if he does not need the assistance of a vet, he could draw on the assistance of the one or three doctors on that side of the House. Let us hope that they are experts in pathology, because they will be endeavouring to breathe life into a virtual corpse of a political character. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHowever, let me return to the Veterinarians Bill. Veterinarians work in a profession that we stand very proudly to support by introducing and shepherding this bill through. The brand of the profession must be protected and safeguarded. We do not want to see the profession undermined\u2014as many other guilds, trades, and professions were as a consequence of failed policies in the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI also make reference to the fact that there was a very, very sensible suggestion made regarding the creation of a board that has a combination of professional vets and a number of lay people. Members have made a range of very silly, childish remarks\u2014which were reflective of the very shallow pool that their rhetoric was being drawn from at that late hour yesterday\u2014but that board will have a very important role overseeing the monitoring, the stewardship, and the full-time development of the veterinary profession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere is this foolish notion that only those who were swept into Parliament in certain rural areas can speak about these matters. It is difficult to speak with any authority when one is an obscure back-bencher in Opposition, and is likely to stay there for the foreseeable future. The place to speak from with authority, actually, is on the side of those who enjoy the power of the Treasury benches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAll the braying in the world, from either the donkey or any other character, will not make any difference if one does not enjoy the authority of the Treasury benches to shepherd through particularly important legislation like this\u2014as well as the student loan legislation, which will be of great assistance to the veterinary profession. Not only will it enable veterinary students to pass with distinction but it will also help the profession, although far be it from me to say whether vets might get an early Christmas. [Interruption]. I listen to all this noise and wonder whether a hydatids dosing is necessary; there is too much frothing coming from the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E \u0112ngari taku mihi mutunga ki a koe, e te tiamana, kia kaha, h\u0101paingia te reo M\u0101ori. Kia tau ng\u0101 manaakitanga. Ko te wikit\u014Dria kei konei, ko r\u0101tou kei te ngaro. Kia ora t\u0101tou!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[But my final tribute to you, Mr Assistant Speaker, is this: persevere. Promote the M\u0101ori language. Blessings upon you. It is here where the victory is; they are missing out. Greetings to us!]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00223328363d26d144b1bdc8ba966fe46d9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223328363d26d144b1bdc8ba966fe46d9a\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Veterinarians Bill and is pleased to see it pass. I congratulate the members of the Primary Production Committee, some of whom have left Parliament and some of whom are no longer on the committee, including myself, and I am a bit sad about that because it was a committee that I enjoyed immensely. In the spirit of good cheer and Christmas, I want to congratulate the chair, David Carter, who had a lot of work to do. This bill, as members found during the Committee stage had extensive re-writing in the select committee, and I think\u2014well, there is no think about it\u2014the bill is better for that. I have to say that the chair brought in a couple of innovative moves as in putting officials and veterinary representatives together, which I believe has to be tightly controlled, and the chairman did that. I think it has to have tight parameters around it, but if those two things are taken into account, I believe that the outcome is a far better and far more workable bill, and, importantly for this House, far harder for the participants in the industry to criticise in future years. So I commend him for doing that and I commend the rest of the committee for the great job they did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThis bill in many ways modernises the Acts that veterinarians operate under. It respects the fact that many of our people are going overseas and are not returning in the numbers that we would like, and it is being far more accepting of qualifications that are earned in other countries and applied in New Zealand, without a whole lot of fuss and bother. It brings those people into the fold and accepts the differences in their qualifications while still upholding the standards that are so essential to our industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI think it was Mr Lindsay Tisch who mentioned yesterday that we talk largely of veterinarians on farms. We talk about the small-animal practices they have, including the family member Bianca that we talked about yesterday. But vets are, of course, critical to our export industry and it is only their professionalism and their standing that allows our meat, which is such a big part of our trade, to go offshore without those horrible things called non-tariff barriers that apply in other countries and that they are only too ready to put on our products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is interesting, as we spend a bit of time in this House and move around the different committees, to see that there are different cultures in those committees, and it is amazing how, even with those different cultures in those committees, and in different parties in those committees, people still apply themselves to the matters in hand. I think sometimes that it is unfortunate the public cannot get more of an overview of that than they do of this particular place that we are standing in at the present time, which is very confrontational, but the select committees tend to be much less so. We work in cooperation\u2014and none more so than the Primary Production Committee, where we all know the importance of exporting, we all know the importance of farming for the future of this country, and we all work diligently to make sure that that is not interrupted in any way and to make sure that we retain the clean, green image, to use a clich\u00E9, that we have spent so many years attaining for New Zealand. I think that not one member of that committee is unaware of that, or takes it lightly, and even though in my time there was certainly a bit of joking around, the work still got done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI am still New Zealand First\u2019s spokesperson on agriculture and I will be speaking to these bills in the future. But I will not be at the Primary Production Committee, so I want to mention a person who gave us a bit of excitement over the last years at that committee. That was our friend Ian Ewen-Street, who during a select committee inquiry took off, to use my language, with the learned counsel who was sitting before the committee\u2014and a very charming and wonderful lady she is. She, Sue, may be listening. With due respect, we just did not expect that of Ian Ewen-Street, but there was much backslapping and congratulations when that came to light. It did not do a lot for his career, I must say\u2014and that is a warning to all the rest of us, who may look around the place. But they are a charming couple, and we wish them well. In his valedictory, Ian Ewen-Street sort of landed me in the messy stuff a little bit, for which I will never forgive him, but for my part I look on it as a prank that had long-lasting repercussions. Nevertheless, it was meant in good heart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo that committee was a great committee to be on. Its members did sterling work, and still do sterling work, and this Veterinarians Bill is proof of that. It is a bill that has been gone over in the biggest possible way, and lots of it has been rewritten, but that has all been done with the intention of making it work better. There is no better example of cooperative select committee diligence and hard work than that of this bill. For my small part in it I commend it to the House, and I hope that it serves the veterinary profession well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00224837ee8628f1480eb8dd9c59c50c58bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224837ee8628f1480eb8dd9c59c50c58bd\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I place on record that the Green Party supports the Veterinarians Bill and, indeed, the veterinary profession. Despite the lengthy and tedious filibuster we have experienced over the past 24 hours on this bill, I believe, in fact, that all parties in this House support the legislation, and that all the hundreds and hundreds of amendments by the National Party were just part of some little game. I have not quite understood what it was all about; they were certainly not serious amendments but just part of a filibuster. So now we have a bill that I think every party in this House supports, and we hope it will achieve its various objectives, including that of protecting the reputation of practising vets. Indeed, their brand has been mentioned a number of times, as though everything in the world has come down now to brands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing about veterinarians is that almost every vet I know\u2014and, I am sure, that most vets\u2014cares deeply about animals. Most people who go into the veterinary profession do so because they have a great affinity for animals. Certainly, I could sing the praises of all the vets who have helped to keep our 18-year-old cat alive, and I think we could all sing the praises\u2014and they have been sung endlessly in the House over the last 24 hours\u2014of individual veterinarians. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut there is a mystery that I would like to comment on\u2014that is, why veterinarians, who have a great affinity with animals, are silent when it comes to major and important issues of cruelty towards various animals. In particular, I am thinking of the cruel and shameful conditions that hens, pigs, and chickens have to endure in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2f2b6b7bd14e649c4a6e4ad27bc7b8\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: And fish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb2e9b1a76aa4a44af72ebf8b5e7103e\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member is right\u2014some fish in their cages, as well. I am absolutely convinced that most veterinarians would feel as repelled and horrified as I do, or in fact as anybody would who actually visited, for example, factories and saw hens stuck in cages with a space the size of a piece of A4 paper to move around in. It is a grim, Orwellian sight. The hens cannot express any natural forms of behaviour. They cannot even extend their wings. They are kept in conditions of misery that it would not be an exaggeration to say are verging on torture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EPigs\u2014highly, highly sociable animals\u2014are stuck in their sow crates, unable to turn round, and just standing there. That is all they can do day after day\u2014those highly, highly intelligent, sociable animals, who can, in experiments, play games on computers with joysticks. To see those highly intelligent and sociable creatures stuck behind bars, unable to move, and just chewing their bars in desperation, would make most veterinarians feel repelled\u2014as indeed I believe any member of this House would feel, if he or she cared to go inside and observe the conditions those animals are kept in. They would feel that that is a very grave blot on New Zealand\u2019s landscape, and that we should not in this day and age, in the 21st century, be keeping animals in conditions that can only be called cruel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESo it is a mystery to me, when I am certain that most vets are opposed to those practices, why the organisations and councils that represent them are silent, for the most part, about them. We look to veterinarians to speak up on behalf of the animal kingdom, and I am sure that if they were not silent but spoke up, those cruel practices would come to a swift end. But, in fact, it is their silence that enables those horrendous conditions to continue in our midst. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThat is why the Greens are particularly keen on the new functions of the Veterinary Council of New Zealand, and its prime, No. 1 function\u2014that is, to advise and make recommendations to the Minister on any matter relating to veterinarians and the practice of veterinary science. Councillors now have a mandate to give specific advice to the Minister on any matter of veterinary science, and surely now, after years of silence, they will find their voice and see that mandate as an obligation on them to speak up for the animal kingdom\u2014for those animals that have no voice in this Parliament. A veterinarian\u2019s livelihood is based upon looking after animals and seeing that they are well cared for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESo I look forward to hearing that the Veterinary Council has made recommendations to the Minister of Agriculture to get rid of sow crates from New Zealand, and to get rid of cages where hens are jammed into spaces with an area less than the size of an A4 sheet of paper in which to move, and also to look at the whole issue of keeping 20,000 to 40,000 chickens that we eat for meat jammed into windowless sheds, where for much of the time they have very little room to move around and where they are continuously fed antibiotics in low doses for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, even though they are not sick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOf course, we know, and every veterinarian in New Zealand knows, that that particular practice is shameful and that it puts the health of future generations of New Zealanders at risk. If we wanted to have an experiment in creating and developing antibiotic resistance, we would continuously feed millions of animals low doses of antibiotics. This practice is producing antibiotic resistance. Up to 50 percent of chickens tested have antibiotic-resistant bacteria on them. When we eat them we, in turn, can take on board those antibiotic-resistant bacteria and, of course, those bacteria can pass to other bacteria in our stomachs, and so on. It is a shameful practice, it has been banned in many countries overseas, and I do think it is time we acknowledged that this practice is putting the health of New Zealand at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is up to veterinarians to take the lead on this issue because, after all, a small number of veterinarians are filling out the prescriptions and allowing\u2014recommending, in fact\u2014millions of chickens to be fed antibiotics continuously, which they do not need because they are not even sick. I have no problem with giving antibiotics to any animal that is sick, but I do have a huge problem with feeding antibiotics continuously to any animal that is not sick, basically, to make that animal grow more quickly and to prevent disease from sweeping through flocks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOther countries have banned that practice because they realise the huge risk that overuse of antibiotics places on our future. More and more diseases are becoming resistant to antibiotics, and we are facing a future where we will not be able to treat many diseases with antibiotics. When we face that future, people will look back and ask why we allowed that practice to happen, and why veterinarians stayed silent about that practice and allowed it to continue by filling out prescriptions that allowed it to happen. They will also ask why the Veterinary Council of New Zealand did not take the lead in getting rid of this and other shameful practices, such as the keeping of animals in cages in conditions that could really be described only as torture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe Greens strongly support this bill. We are very hopeful that the new role of the Veterinary Council, in making recommendations to the Minister and in giving advice on any matter relating to veterinary science, will result in the Veterinary Council and the veterinary profession at long last finding their voices on those issues, taking a lead, and getting rid of some of the shameful cruelty that millions of animals in New Zealand still have to endure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002210c99f32f95748cf95682d511cdf42e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210c99f32f95748cf95682d511cdf42e1\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to begin this speech on the third reading of the Veterinarians Bill from United Future\u2019s point of view by saying that I agree with the sentiments that Sue Kedgley has just expressed in relation to the way in which we look after animals such as pigs and chickens in this country. I think if I had been born a chicken, I would have preferred to be able to range around in the open air from time to time, and do all the things that chickens do. They do a bit of scratching, hunting, and pecking. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EKeeping chickens sometimes reminds me a little of Parliament, because chickens certainly are quick to find a pecking order. They get rather peckish towards each other on many occasions, which bring to mind some of the other images that members sometimes see in this House. I think, similarly, if I was born a pig, I would like to do my share of the rolling in mud, the rooting, and so forth, instead of being confined in a little cage with a concrete floor. As our society comes to understand more and more about animals, I would imagine that this House will address those issues in due time. So I wish Sue Kedgley all the best with those endeavours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn my electorate of Rongotai, we have a very large veterinary practice called\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225958424d02cf48ca9ded81f348abec9b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Your electorate? The member is Annette King.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293cc95568b804cb09da23cbc2ee9ac47\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is my electorate. I live there, I work there, and I do good things for it. So I am very proud\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b5b0d56bef4bf19b2ad0124b44ff17\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s a King\u2014what does that make the member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc6bff2b1a045b9947fe0cffc1bace1\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Trevor Mallard would know more about that subject perhaps than others in the House would, but I do not think we will go there at the moment. I did not say I was the member for Rongotai; I just said it is my electorate, and it is where I contested the election. But we have a wonderful veterinary practice there called Animalz, which has started a whole new chain of large veterinary practices around the country. Allan Probert, who is the dynamic entrepreneurial businessman behind it, has made it into a great success. It is like a cross between a zoo and a veterinary practice, because there are so many different animals there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI think that, for whatever reason, the number of cats in New Zealand now vastly exceeds the number of dogs. That is certainly true in Miramar. When I go for my nightly strolls, I have a lot of fun stopping now and then to stroke various moggies that want to accompany me down the street and up the trails in my beautiful suburb. I can tell people on authority that I have not seen a cat come out of Peter Jackson\u2019s house yet, but I walk past that house every night. So I offer my congratulations today to Peter Jackson on the very sensitive way that he has portrayed a gorilla in a certain movie that premiered here in Wellington last night. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would also like to make a comment about the general welfare of animals in this country. United Future has a policy, which we will be progressing under our confidence and supply agreement, to do with the planting of trees on marginal strips around rivers and lakes. We call it a \u201Cno regrets\u201D policy because it has so many great benefits to the country. Trees live on nitrates, so we deal with nitrate runoffs. We add a lot more to our clean, green image, and we also provide more shelter for animals\u2014which brings me back to the bill. I think it is true that veterinarians should have a very broad view of the welfare of animals. It is good to see some trends emerging in our farming practices where that is also being taken into account, and people are beginning to realise it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ELet me give an example. During the election campaign, I spent quite a bit of time in Southland\u2014and I know my colleague Eric Roy will know something about this\u2014which had the best lambing season over the last spring that it has ever had. One of the things Southland has done as a new practice is to minimise human interaction with ewes during the lambing process. Instead, farmers are leaving a cluster of tussock in their paddocks, because they have found that ewes like to tuck under those tussocks at the time they are lambing. Without human beings being involved, farmers are finding the outcomes are very good. It is also adding to productivity because, of course, it reduces the cost of human intervention. So I think there will be some good spin-offs for animals coming from that process of planting trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486b6c0368ec456586516f6a71b2c465\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s been a bit of modification there, too\u2014the sheep are nearly cows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275cea212a3044db2bdf93387480843fc\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, there is a little bit of genetic modification going on there, as well. I have not actually seen a species quite like that yet. I think I can picture it, though; we would have to milk it on our knees\u2014which is probably not a bad thing for those who pray in the morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESo for all those sorts of reasons, I have the pleasure of signalling United Future\u2019s support for the Veterinarians Bill in its third reading, and I wish the vets in this country all the very best in the important work that they do for the welfare of millions of our animals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002226f2a1132e084e389fe4c383bc11c3b7\u0022\u003ESports Anti-Doping Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002234d26b53fda24857b5bdcdaf22ba87a0\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca32e82cc89f4c12a0c9080b49faa22a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca32e82cc89f4c12a0c9080b49faa22a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Sport and Recreation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Sports Anti-Doping Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Government Administration Committee for consideration. I want to thank the House for what I am sure will be a largely bipartisan, or multipartisan, approach on this legislation. That has been its history ever since my good friend John Banks showed leadership in this area in the early 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is considered by the international community to be a world leader in the fight against doping in sport. We were a founding member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and have been a strong supporter of the development of the code that seeks to harmonise international efforts to address doping in sports by establishing international standards and values, which was finalised at the world anti-doping conference in Copenhagen in March 2003. Nations then moved on, as members will be aware because a committee has been dealing with the Unesco international convention. That is something New Zealand is just about to officially ratify, following the support of the Government Administration Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe world code is a set of anti-doping rules and principles that are accepted by most of the world\u2019s international sporting organisations. Those organisations have responsibility for ensuring compliance with the code and enforcing it through their member organisations. I make the point that a few international sporting codes have still not quite come into line with the code, and I encourage the relevant local national sporting organisations to work on their world organisations in order for that to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis bill was developed in order to allow all doping violations to be handled in a uniform manner in New Zealand. The current legislative framework comes from the New Zealand Sports Drug Agency Act of 1994, which was the work of John Banks. From memory\u2014and this will surprise people a little\u2014I think David Lange played a bit of a role in the committee that was involved in getting that agency set up at the time, along with some other sporting matters. The advent of the world code in 2003 changed the environment we had for the previous decade. What we are trying to do is to bring our legislation into line with what is happening around the world. Therefore, this bill will repeal and replace the 1994 Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe bill does not contain the world code itself, as the code does not lend itself to going into legislation, nor does it incorporate it by reference. But it does allow for the making of rules that will interpret the code for New Zealand. The bill continues the Sports Drug Agency as an independent Crown entity with members who have knowledge and experience in law, sports, sports medicine, sports participation, and administration. I do want to acknowledge the work the agency has done. It has recently re-branded itself as Drug Free Sport New Zealand, and there have been three exceptional leaders there in Sir Graham Speight, David Howman, who now has an international leadership role in the anti-doping area, and Dr Dave Gerrard, who as well as being a real athlete himself has shown technical expertise in this area, along with Graeme Steel, who is probably seen as the international leader in technical matters around doping in sport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe bill will make some changes that will allow for the public notification of the names of athletes who commit doping violations, after the processes have been completed. There has been a tendency on the part of some sports to try to hush up some things in this area, and I think the naming and shaming approach is important. The bill also allows for the implementation of blood testing, something that was right at the edge of the rules. The bill makes that area a lot clearer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI make it clear that the bill and the sports anti-doping rules will not impinge on the rights or affect the obligations of members of the general public. No one will be randomly stopped when riding a bike down the road and asked to give a sample. The legislation will apply only to people who, by their voluntary participation in sport, are required by their sport\u2019s anti-doping policy to comply with the rules. But people will have to be aware\u2014and it is important that there are some reminders\u2014that both within the participation season and out of season there are rules, and people will have to be prepared to give samples if they are involved in sport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86413bc2d984a6794f1b229fdee7c39\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What about normal clubs\u2014at that level?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517f38c0e4544334a9c295f19e462aa7\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Theoretically, at the club level there is an obligation for people to be dope-free. I think that is quite important. There was probably a previous history. Many members of the House who have been members of gymnasia found that in the 1970s and 1980s the attitude to the taking of drugs was probably quite different from that now. Drugs were quite openly available, and almost certainly much more extensive use was made of them by club, and possibly even school, players in the past. I make it very clear that these rules apply to people who are in organised sport run under the auspices of national sporting organisations, even at a club level. It is quite unlikely that they will be tested at that level, because the focus will always be at the top level, but the rules do allow for that sort of testing and people should be aware of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe support of Drug Free Sport New Zealand and of the New Zealand Olympic Committee has been vital in this area. I think it is very important that our athletes, who have shown recently how well they perform on the international stage, can compete, can be clean, and can win. It is interesting that we seem to be doing a bit better internationally as the rules are implemented for international competitions. That probably says something about some other countries and their longer-term attitude. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI will make two closing points. One is that an international debate is being held on whether the rules should focus on performance-enhancing drugs only. Therefore, there is a discussion around marijuana and its use\u2014whether that is something that is clearly not performance enhancing, and whether it should be the subject of the testing. It is clear that the majority of positive tests in New Zealand are for marijuana, which stays in the system for 6 weeks or more. We should have that discussion at some stage internationally, and we should have it in New Zealand as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe other point I will make is in reference to articles in a Sunday newspaper last week around the rider Lisa Cropp. I think we need to get some consistency around our testing and our rules, and around the regulations and the courage of enforcement, because it is becoming very clear that a very senior person in the racing industry has been cheating. She has been achieving records when she has been cheating, and the authorities have been unable to deal with her. It is absolutely unfair that New Zealand records are broken by someone who, at the time, was using methamphetamine. That is wrong, and it has to stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u002221a1905325074cd9883c7fe9faad6240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221a1905325074cd9883c7fe9faad6240\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E National will definitely be supporting the bill going to the select committee. I have the view that anybody in this House who does not support the first reading of the bill should probably be swabbed, because the need to have in place a range of mechanisms to keep sport as it should be\u2014the pure and wholesome prevail of those who want to achieve by dint of training and ability\u2014makes so much sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIf there were an example that we should use to show that this issue does have some currency, it is today\u2019s Dominion Post headline \u201CUS sprinter banned for two years\u201D and the article about Tim Montgomery, a previous world record holder, and his doping offences. That is just using today\u2019s news as an example that the subject does have some real currency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESo National will be supporting the bill certainly through the first reading, in the select committee, and at the subsequent stages. But we believe so strongly about this issue that we will be giving this legislation absolute scrutiny through every stage to ensure that we are able to provide adequate levels of protection, the right incentives, and the right enforcement procedures, as far as New Zealand is concerned, to play our part in what is a world international sports arena. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has been a world leader in this area for some considerable time. We have been right at the cutting edge of making decisions. We have not been at all tardy in accepting our responsibility in the arena of sports anti-doping. So we support the Minister\u2019s comments about some of the details in the bill, and I will not repeat those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note of the Sports Anti-Doping Bill includes the code, which states that doping is fundamentally contrary to the spirit of sport. I think that sums it up. Doping puts at risk ethical principles and educational values, and we support working against that. The bill will continue the New Zealand Sports Drug Agency as the national agency responsible for compliance with the code. It empowers the agency, and changes and enhances its role in quite a number of ways. So National is supportive of the bill in every way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWe have to protect our young people from some real dangers. Today sport is a business. Once it used to be a pursuit of competition; today it is a business. The rewards for those who achieve are so much greater than they were when I was a youngster, although there were some opportunities then. Today, when one sees the earning capacity of the top sportspeople around the world, both in prize money and in endorsements from a range of commercial entities that associate themselves with sport, one can understand the temptation that is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWe say it is good that people can and want to achieve. We support people who want to be winners, but we want them to do it in a way that is fair and that does not put their bodies at risk. We now have a situation where there is just simply so much money attached to sport that probably the best chemists and doctors in the world are creating new enhancement drugs, and the second best are trying to catch them. I think that that is simply the reality. So we need to say: \u201CLet us empower those who have the responsibility of keeping sport clean.\u201D That is entirely what we want to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThere are a few people who might ask what harm it does if people want to win, as it is their bodies and it is the ultimate free market. But it simply is not that simple. There are clear and catalogued illustrations of how drug doping has had serious implications on the health of individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIf members want a model of just what drug doping can do, they should look at Germany. For about a millennia Germans were essentially the same people, the same race. In fact, one of their leaders in the 1930s thought they were the purest race in the world\u2014although that is a debatable issue that I do not want to get into. But, essentially, all German people were the same. In 1960 a fence went up and cut one-third of the country off from the other two-thirds. Within 15 years, in the mid-1970s, one-third of the country had gone from winning one or two gold medals at the Olympics to being the second-greatest achiever in the Olympics in the world\u2014winning something like 30 or 40 gold medals. That was in the period that the Minister mentioned: in the 1970s, when the ability and the desire to control drugs internationally was much less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIt is a matter of record now that in the late 1980s the Berlin Wall came down and the countries were merged. The performance of the winners of that former country in the Olympic arena has diminished considerably with the increased scrutiny of drug management, drug control, and the testing around international sports events. A number of very clearly documented illustrations show how some of those East German athletes\u2019 bodies were distorted. Some of them even died. There was a high jumper\u2014whose name escapes me at the moment\u2014who died at a meet and subsequently was found in the autopsy to be overloaded with a range of performance-enhancing drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThere is plenty of evidence to suggest that that behaviour is entirely inappropriate. At a time when our young people have enough to contend with in terms of planning careers, studying, fitting in family, and training\u2014balancing competition and the desire to win\u2014to add something else into that mix, such as whether they will be part of the doping scene in sport, is just entirely inappropriate. I think that it is harder today to engage in the taking of performance-enhancing drugs. But because the money is there, those who really want to pursue that course are able to do so. The desire to win can and does cloud judgment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI had a very limited involvement with athletics in the 1960s. I am no great shakes as an athlete, but one thing I could do was throw a discus. I was probably competitive at most provincial meets. I can recall on one occasion going to the Caledonian ground in Dunedin. I was 18 years old, 18 stone, and straight off the swedes, and I thought I could throw a discus\u2014until this man-mountain arrived on the scene. His name was Robin Tait. He was just a veritable behemoth of a man. He had muscles in places where I did not even have places! He was just a huge, powerful man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI do not want to besmirch Robin Tait; a man who won a number of medals for New Zealand at the Commonwealth Games and who performed quite adequately for us at a number of international meets. But there were a lot of anecdotal stories about Robin Tait and little blue pills, and the way in which he had enhanced his performance. Sadly, Robin Tait died in his 40s, and I think members can draw whatever conclusions they like, but certainly there is evidence that he would have been partaking in something that assisted him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIn my own case, it was not until later years that I actually took steroids for cancer, and the repercussions of doing that, even though I was in my 40s, is that I now take a bigger size of shoe. My left foot is one and a half sizes bigger than my right. That happened on the taking of steroids. My left hand is 20 millimetres bigger than my right hand. That is something that just distorted my body, in my 40s. So we cannot presume there is not a huge risk with the taking of steroids. As I say, that is pretty well documented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ECan I just say to the House that National supports this bill. We are keen to see in place the most rugged and robust rules surrounding the absolute exclusion of drugs in the sports arena. So we will be voting for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002254b6e95ed29c405a863ccc2072e5434d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254b6e95ed29c405a863ccc2072e5434d\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak in support of the Sports Anti-Doping Bill. I must say it is a relief to be talking about sport and athletes, and getting away from veterinarians, cats, dogs, gorillas, and even parrots, which we have been talking about over the last day or so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8220c36348842a59e10077d1e00e917\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Then Labour should not have introduced that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280c230ded47a4860b31230c63b988914\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: I thought National supported it! As members have already said, New Zealand is recognised internationally as a world leader in the fight against the use of performance-enhancing drugs in sport. Sport is such an important and integral part of our nation, and is something we all can identify with\u2014our record in sport, our children\u2019s involvement in sport. I think we should be proud of our efforts thus far in implementing a progressive and comprehensive anti-doping programme. It is very heartening that the National Party has said it will support the bill through the select committee process, and beyond. I think we all can identify with how important it is to our international reputation and what we believe as a nation in terms of the part that sport plays in our daily lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E The bill was developed to allow all doping violations in New Zealand to be handled in a uniform manner, and to update our legislation to ensure it allows for the making of rules to interpret the very important anti-doping code. It is very good to see our leadership role in the international community. We were a founding member of the World Anti-Doping Agency, and are a strong supporter of the code, and I look forward to our joining other nations in adopting the convention early next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe bill repeals and replaces the 1994 Act. When the Act was developed there was no common international practice around doping and sport, or drug testing. Of course, with the 2003 code this situation has now changed, which means our legislation is outdated. Although New Zealand anti-doping practices are generally consistent with the code, the bill brings our legal framework into line with the code. It allows all doping violations to be handled in a uniform manner, and it is integral to the anti-doping regime in New Zealand as it provides for the national anti-doping agency and national hearing body to implement the code.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe need to understand that non-compliance with the code could affect our strong anti-doping reputation, and damage the efforts made by previous New Zealand Governments and our anti-doping agencies to establish an effective and credible anti-doping programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0692fab97cd42f9a394084e60b188f0\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What does the code say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c068bbf3ef03406daf5cb8e80f3eeb36\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the member can read it for himself without having me read it out for him. I hope he will take the time to read the code and inform himself about it, which is the duty of all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe should be proud of this measure. It is a very, very good bill. We should commend New Zealand for its leadership in this matter, and give our thanks to all of our sportsmen and sportswomen who have upheld, and who will continue to uphold, our tradition of competing and winning cleanly and fairly. I look forward to the support of all parties for this very important bill during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bae39438ef85432487d411aa0e7e8a59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bae39438ef85432487d411aa0e7e8a59\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E National will support this bill because it is necessary and it is timely. I congratulate\u2014and I never thought I would ever say this\u2014the Minister in charge of the bill, Trevor Mallard. I have to say it quickly in case it hurts too much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a39a353b6904de1b9956cd51658b4d6\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: You could have a heart attack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b4fe1241f0046abbeb6c09c2d83933b\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. The present Minister, the Hon Murray McCully, and, before him, the Hon John Banks, have done sports in this country a very, very good service and I congratulate them all. But it is more serious than just aligning ourselves with a code. I note, and the Minister pointed out for his own reasons, that the code this legislation will put us alongside is not in here. I would have thought that at least it would be included as an attachment or be in the schedule, so that when people are reading the bill they can see the international code right there and have a look at it. Sports are part of our national identity. They are part and parcel of what makes us the people we are. It is not only the All Blacks, but also the netballers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ece1f78c38e4685beaaf97f5b84dda9\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: The cyclists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d2344ddb24407ea1dd262f801877f0\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Cyclists, you name it, we have them. We compete on an international stage far above what our population ratio should be. We are a country of sportspeople. I am also glad to say that the Minister answered my question about whether this was designed for people at club level. Although he said yes, my worry is that the bill is all about the glamour people. It is all about the glamour pusses who get all the kudos around the world. It is never about the 18-year-old who may have been forced into doing something that he or she should not have, at a club level, just so that person can go the extra mile, and that is something we need to put a lot of our energies into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI point out to the House that there are the internationally named people like Robin Tait, who was not just rumoured to take steroids, but did take steroids. He took performance-enhancing drugs and it killed him. Robin Tait was, as my colleague said, dead in his 40s. There are also the glamour athletes like Flo Jo. We all thought she was a great athlete. She passed away in her 40s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229592ac3ded564d21b324c90c914e7991\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Tim Montgomery!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fe60d729c7346bd8816d384701d3aaa\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I will come to Tim Montgomery in a minute. In this country we should be putting pressure on international bodies in relation to the whole issue of sports doping. Arnold Schwarzenegger is a great character\u2014\u201CI\u2019ll be back.\u201D He took anabolic steroids. [Interruption] I suppose that is the reason why he is not a very well-liked man at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e4b496177fe4908abbecae18dcf4600\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: A famous Tory, like Tau Henare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227375a6917dd04aa5bfc235652d15ed24\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go. The Noddy from the north has nothing better to do than to come down to the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022973aa04db1be4636a308ead046f39dd2\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Christian names, not nicknames, are to be used in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be66434f9434ed88b5fa5d28cfbe465\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It was not a nickname, Mr Assistant Speaker, it was a derogatory name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff9da8ab21b4e11958382870120854f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a16ed472e445fe87c058216061033a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, Mr Assistant Speaker. That unfortunate person lost his seat because the voters in the north decided enough was enough. I always said that if I could not beat Dover Samuels, I did not deserve the seat, and I still believe that. I am so grateful to the people of Te Tai Tokerau that they put their faith in a person who is willing to go the extra mile\u2014and he already has. Here is some interesting stuff, and this is a wide-ranging debate: the former electorate office of the past member for Te Tai Tokerua, Mr Dover Samuels\u2014talking about doping\u2014is now Te Atat\u016B\u2019s first knock-shop. Does that have anything to do with doping? There was the former leaseholder and now there is a new leaseholder\u2014it must be all about doping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228c4439d5ad145c58d805ae259874cef\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a1886a27594470a94ed8433eb29fc2\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I just did, Mr Assistant Speaker, and it is a wide-ranging debate. I want to talk about the drug-induced frenzy of performance-enhancing drugs. It will make people do anything. It will make them accept things that they would not normally accept. It will make people underperform, not overperform. It will create havoc in communities. Like any drug dependency, there is a price. It is a sad life and it is a false life. It is depressing for those who are around such people, and it can even lead to break-ups in the family. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe new designer drug on the market today is \u201CWinstone Alone\u201D. Members might laugh at it, but it is a performance-enhancing drug. It is about a quick shot of a hormone-enhancing drug that has some sad side effects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E It is depressing for those who are around people on this new drug, \u201CWinstone Alone\u201D. It can lead to a false life, it can lead to a sad life, and it is not performance enhancing, at all. All it leads to is living out a lie. When one is on this drug, one is living out a lie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate the Minister again, and also those people who have been part of the whole industry of sport, because that is what it is\u2014an industry, and we do have to clean it up. I want now to refer to Tim Montgomery, and this touches on one of my major concerns about this bill. Tim Montgomery, the 100 metres world record holder, was suspended for 2 years. He was suspended without testing positive. That happened because he was caught up in the big scandal and because of the evidence of somebody else. He has not tested positive at any stage of his career. He is the world record holder of the 100 metres. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EAre we aligning ourselves to a system where there is justice for all? What about access to the courts? What about access to justice for those who are caught up in some way, shape, or form? That is what I want the select committee to look at when this bill comes before it. There is no code as part of this bill. It is not attached, and I think it should be. People will then be able to look at the international code and know what we have actually signed up to do. I am glad that the Minister said that, yes, people can be tested if they are a member of a sports organisation and play sport. I want again to congratulate the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022965da38e71224052b1bb5bc40eb949b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022965da38e71224052b1bb5bc40eb949b5\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to indicate that New Zealand First will support the passage of this bill, and to congratulate the Minister again on bringing the bill, which is long overdue, to the House. I note that the work on it was actually commenced under a previous administration\u2014in fact, quite some time ago when the Hon John Banks was in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI want to spend a wee bit of time in responding and replying to some of the comments that have just been made, and I say to the Hon Mr Henare not to go away\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224201e7b5d8584fafbbd8b300c7d61c0c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208b2a1095d14af58bc60ec1ef12c4d2\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: That is not an enhanced performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046b4d6b21534974907689660cae3c5d\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not think it is right for a member to mention when another member is leaving the Chamber or coming into it, or his or her absence from the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256092b0715cf4787a6045954ef627d15\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is absolutely right, and he will notice that I called the member to order. In fact, that was under Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022804e1ff26ddc4da1a41236d2c17511a4\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member was still in the House. How could I refer to a member being absent from the House when he was still here to raise a point of order? Time immemorial will show that that was a ridiculous ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7ef5af16de743d9b069ece7e7e61663\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. I, as well, inferred from what you said that the member was leaving the House. The member was concerned about that, and there the matter rests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209d7ad740cdf4e30956b37c3d513e013\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With all due respect to you and to your position\u2014a position I actually voted for you to have, because I respect you\u2014I ask that you deliberate in private on the ruling you have just quoted, and see whether any reference whatsoever was made to the impending possible departure of a member who indeed might not depart the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b8cb4f1807e431eae1f0fbc94397054\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have applied the principle of Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/8, and I want to let the matter rest there. I have made a decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e3127515374907a2641abe48cb4726\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I hope Mr Henare is listening with both ears, because what we saw over there was not a performance-enhanced performance, and neither was it a drug-enhanced performance. It might have been enhanced, but it was definitely not performance-enhanced; it was actually quite detrimental\u2014whatever that member has been subjecting himself to over the last 24 hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMight I point out to honourable members of the National Party that we should possibly have been debating this bill last night. What we heard and what the people of New Zealand heard last night\u2014and let there be no mistake\u2014were speeches from all those brand-spanking new members of the National Party, who were making what were probably their second contributions to the House, and I say to them: \u201CWhen I start playing the CDs of those speeches, you\u2019re gonna look pretty stupid around the country.\u201D New members of this House should be warned that what they say in this House is recorded forever, in perpetuity, so it is not very smart for them, within a month of their being here, to make the most banal, stupid, childish, immature speeches, thinking they can get away with that in the dead of night\u2014because we have a wonderful thing in this country and this speech right now is being recorded. It can be downloaded on to CD and no doubt will be played at the forthcoming election, and so will my remarks on the Sports Anti-Doping Bill. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI am allowed to respond to the interjection, Mr Assistant Speaker. Again, new members and recently returned members should remember that the rules allow me to respond to interjections and to broaden my debate. If members want to keep chipping, then I make the point to them, through you, Mr Assistant Speaker, that they should not follow the lead of people like Mr Henare. He failed. If that is the example they are going to follow, then they will all be in serious trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI will give Mr Henare one little bit of credit. He touched very briefly on youth. This bill is very important because of the forthcoming Commonwealth Games and, looking ahead, the Olympic Games. Yesterday Parliament hosted an absolutely amazing ceremony in the handing over of the taonga from the former flag bearer of the Winter Olympics team to the chef de mission, and from there it will be handed over to whomever is appointed as the new flag bearer for the New Zealand Winter Olympics team. In looking at the DVD that shows how our New Zealand village was set up at the last Olympics in Athens and how our athletes performed, one is absolutely filled with pure pride. It is 100 percent New Zealand pure pride.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First people can be forgiven for that\u2014we are quite a nationalistic party. We take pride in the flag and in the performance of our athletes. What we do not take pride in is people who cheat. That is akin to the National Party bringing in the Exclusive Brethren and doping the party\u2019s campaign with $500,000 to performance-enhance it. We do not admire cheats. We do not admire people who do underhand things, so any legislation that stems that or stamps that out is good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut there is a problem that I will reflect on. It was interesting to hear Mr Tim Montgomery say in an interview that one of the reasons he took the drugs he took was that he was told to take them. He did not have time to understand them or learn about them. He did not actually bother himself with considering the implications or looking at the analysis of what he was being told to take. He simply lifted his tongue to have it popped in, and that was it. He was relying on his coaches not to put him in a situation that was illegal. That is what he said in an interview that I watched, which I think was a CNN interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe problem is that today many of the young people coming through sports training probably do not realise the level of education they will require to be good, effective, competent, and competitive sportspeople in today\u2019s world. There is the possibility that if they do not educate themselves, or if they are not educated as well as they should be, firstly in the law and secondly on the enhancements and supplements available to them out there, they could put themselves into a dubious situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is not just about supplements and it is not just about enhancing products; it is also about simple things like medicines. I am one of hundreds of thousands of people in New Zealand who suffer from asthma and eczema. What do I use? I use Ventolin, and Betnovate\u2014a steroid-based cream, is it not? The question I guess one would have to ask if one were an athlete is whether athletes are allowed to use Betnovate. Does that have an effect on their testing regime? Can they use Flixotide? Can they use Betnovate? What types of prescription medicines or treatments are they taking that can have an effect on their testing regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EProfessional athletes of the likes of Sarah Ulmer and the people who successfully represent New Zealand today on the Olympic circuit are well educated and well informed, and they have good staff and a good management team to keep them on the straight and narrow and help them. But today as young people see a career in professional sports, and as they look at their heroes winning the Rugby League Tri-Nations in the United Kingdom or competing and blitzing the northern hemisphere on the rugby circuit with the grand slam tour, they aspire to be like them. Many of them look at sport as a possible option for a professional career.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe challenges and attractions of taking supplements that young people should not take will always be there, and one cannot help but reflect that possibly what the select committee needs to look at is the sort of educational processes that exist in our schools. I know that Aranui High School in Christchurch set up the first sports academy, in order to take in a bunch of kids whose only real interest in life was sport; they were not interested in academia. Those young M\u0101ori and Pacific Island kids who flooded into Aranui High School\u2014some came from St Bedes College and some came from St Andrews College; those are the top schools of the district\u2014and moved across to a school that was too brown and too bad for anyone to consider previously, were in search of a sports academy training regime that hopefully would put them either into the services, the military or the uniformed police, or give them a shot at sport somewhere, competitively. And those kids have done very, very well over the years. I wonder whether those schools will be considering including educational initiatives in their syllabus in order to better inform young people of the dangers surrounding the enhancement of their performances by the use of drugs or medicines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. I have only a little time left to speak, so I will wind up by simply saying again to those new members of the National Party that when they participate in these debates they should think carefully about how what they say might reflect on them personally when they go back to their districts and face the constituents who voted for them. They should ask themselves one question: \u201CWill I be proud of the speech I just made when it\u2019s played to my constituents by an opposing party candidate on the hustings at the next election?\u201D. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley cannot help herself. She is chipping in again. That is why she lost her seat the first time, and it is probably why she will lose it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022babaf9030eb3473a8a7b2161da870459\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022babaf9030eb3473a8a7b2161da870459\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting this bill. I want to look at the question from a number of angles. My colleague Eric Roy said that the desire to win can cloud the judgment of sportspeople, and I do agree. We have to look at the pressures on athletes to do that sort of thing nowadays, as they know that they are going to hurt their health by taking such drugs in order to win. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think there is a problem in society with winning being everything. In the past, participating and doing one\u2019s best was what people aspired to. Now winning has become everything. The glory comes to the winner, and in the international sports setting there are so many rewards for being No. 1. We can see that in the performances of our own athletes, and in the attitude of the public, both in New Zealand and around the world, to our athletes\u2019 performances. I am thinking of someone like Ben Fouhy, our kayaker in the Olympics, who came second in his race. He was subject to some criticism: \u201COh you\u2019ve been world champion and you didn\u2019t win at the Olympics.\u201D The pressure on him to win was so great, even though he gave a fantastic performance and came second to a Norwegian who was really at the top of his game. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAlso, the financial rewards internationally in terms of sponsorships and everything else have grown so much that to win means one can perhaps be a multimillionaire and live in comfort for the rest of one\u2019s days. If one happens to come second at the Olympic Games, then all of those rewards do not come one\u2019s way. So there is the social pressure combined with the pressure of commercial sport, which is not good. The pressure is also driven by the attitudes of the public and media in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other unfortunate pressure is the pressure of national interest, and Eric Roy talked about the East European Governments of the past who were so desperate for national glory through getting a lot of medals at an Olympic Games\u2014East Germany in particular\u2014that they were engaged in doping on a substantial scale. In fact, as I understand it, if a person was in an East German or Czechoslovakian team, he or she was ordered to take those drugs. People had to take those drugs or they were not on the squad. That has led to great problems, and not only in Eastern Europe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAmerican authorities seemed to be under similar pressure to make sure that their athletes won. A couple of years ago we heard of a whole pile of athletes, including Carl Lewis, who seemed to be caught up in this pressure to take drugs. Carl Lewis was deemed to have taken not just one type but three types of banned stimulants. When the international agencies\u2014the International Olympic Committee and others\u2014looked at the United States Olympic Association and what it had done they were rather horrified that the defence of people like Carl Lewis was that they did not have any intent to take a drug. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe World Anti-Doping Agency chairman, Dick Pound, dismissed the no-intent defence. He said he had seen copies of US documents, and that there was almost what he called \u201Cautomatic forgiveness\u201D by US officials. They were so desperate to have a lot of their people win gold medals that they tended to look the other way. The International Olympic Committee\u2019s medical commission chairman, Arne Ljungqvist said that the US Olympic Committee documents fitted a pattern of failure to report positive drug cases. So we can see that a perceived national interest can blind authorities to the dangers of that. Tim Montgomery, the 100 metres world record holder, has now been banned for a couple of years, and perhaps he should be banned for life, for being caught up in drugs. In all possibility his partner, Marion Jones, who also won gold medals at the Olympics, was also taking drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhat does this do to athletes who are really trying to do their best? One of the problems\u2014and I refer back to the East European doping in the past\u2014is that some world records date from that period, when there was almost universal doping of East European athletes. Women in particular gained an advantage out of it. Some of those athletics records are still on the books. The problem for athletes today is that they can excel at the very top of their sport and be at world record - holder level but those world records are still on the books and in their way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EFlo Jo\u2019s\u2014Florence Griffiths Joiner\u2019s\u2014records for the 100 metres and 200 metres are still, I think, on the books in spite of the fact that most people recognise that they are likely to be drug-induced world records. That is very bad. It is also bad for the fans as well. We all took great pride in Carl Lewis\u2019s performance. He was a hero to many, and it does tarnish the public\u2019s identification with sport and with the progress of the athletes if they later find out that the athletes are involved in drugs. The performance of Robin Tait, who was mentioned by Eric Roy, is a similar example. We had a lot of pride in his performance in the shot-put and discus and in his gold medals and records. We then found out\u2014he openly admitted it in later life\u2014that he had been involved in steroid taking. Graham May, our Christchurch weight lifter, who was also a medal winner, was also found to have taken drugs. People\u2019s interest in sport is deflated, as is their identification with the athletes and their performances, if they find that out in later life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI am glad that the Minister, in his introductory speech, talked about out-of-season testing. There is a problem in that some athletes get around drug testing by taking drugs as they are leading up to a performance, and then when they know the testing regime is going to kick in, closer to the competitive athletics, they stop taking the drugs. The drugs disappear from their systems but they have had the benefit of them by that time. So there is out-of-season testing and random testing, and another thing that can help is holding blood samples for later testing. Sometimes athletes are at the front edge of scientific experimentation in drugs and they can get away with taking drugs because testing has not caught up with a particular drug. So holding blood samples for later testing can help to avoid the situation of world records by the Florence Griffith Joyners, the Tim Montgomerys, or the East European athletes in the past. Their world records cannot be taken from the books because there was no system to check drug testing at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that this is a serious issue. As Tau Henare mentioned, sport is a part of our national identity. We want to make sure that we in New Zealand are a model in this respect. Even if we know that some other nations might be cheating and getting the edge, we just have to have confidence that our own athletes are performing to their highest ability. There has been no suspicions around Sarah Ulmer, who performed fantastically in cycling, or most of our other athletes, and I think we can be proud in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00228832da05174b4b378104eb8f29d0e052\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228832da05174b4b378104eb8f29d0e052\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Ng\u0101 mema o te Whare P\u0101remata, t\u0113n\u0101 hoki t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you Madam Speaker and to us all as well, members of Parliament.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI rise today to support the Sports Anti-Doping Bill. I do so because the M\u0101ori Party is committed to the notion of fair play, and supports the principles of people competing on a level playing field. We also support the values embodied in the International Charter of Physical Education and Sport of Unesco. While this discussion is about principles in sport, I note also that they are principles that apply to all situations in our society\u2014honesty, fairness, respect, courage, commitment, and unity. Ki a m\u0101tou o te ao M\u0101ori me pono, me tika, me t\u016Bturu, me pakari, me whakawh\u0101iti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E [To us of M\u0101oridom one must be honest, correct, genuine, mature, and to the point.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe also support activities that encourage wh\u0101nau to take part in community activities, that encourage healthy, active lifestyles, and that recognise national M\u0101ori sports organisations. There are many sporting activities in which M\u0101ori have gained international recognition, including M\u0101ori golfers Philip Tataurangi, Michael Campbell, and now Bradley Iles; surfers like Daniel Kereopa; the whole of the New Zealand basketball team; and waka ama as well. In fact, we are privileged to host the world waka ama championships at Lake Karapiro in March 2006. Every 2 years, countries from all around the world unite to determine who are the best waka ama paddlers in the world, and next year it is being held here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db578823169b41c6956514960d9234e2\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: \u014Ctaki will win this time. They are ready to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d045100c17ac4bea8a2cac1168a1151e\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Darren Hughes that if that happens, it will be a laugh. I wish them all the best, but I suspect that the winning teams are probably going to come out of the Tai Tokerau. All these sporting activities encourage healthy living in an environment without those substances that enhance performance. Indeed, M\u0101ori have a proven record of achievement at the highest level of international sport, competing and winning on the world stage. The Aotearoa M\u0101ori women\u2019s sevens team, for example, have won the Hong Kong Sevens on the three occasions they have participated. The Aotearoa M\u0101ori rugby team beat the British Lions and everybody else in the world. There are also the Aotearoa M\u0101ori women\u2019s and men\u2019s touch teams. None of them needed performance-enhancing drugs to achieve their goals. They did not need to cheat on themselves, let alone the opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt does concern me, though, regularly to hear our sporting commentators referring to people who cheat and get away with it, condoning the behaviour because they simply were not caught. It is kind of an irony, that this game of rugby, which our nation reveres so much, has its origins in a classic legend of cheating, dating back to before the Treaty of Waitangi was signed. A young man by the name of William Webb Ellis, at a school called Rugby, broke the rules, cheated, picked up a ball, and ran with it. We have even named a world cup after him. Yet here I am, speaking about integrity and honesty in sport when our national sport traces its origins from a cheat. It makes me wonder, albeit just briefly, whether I should withdraw our request to host the Rugby World Cup final in 2011 in Kait\u0101ia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESeriously though, the M\u0101ori Party is, of course, committed to the game of rugby and indeed we look forward to our own Te Ururoa Flavell captaining the 2006 parliamentary rugby team, which will also, no doubt, be dope-free although probably not free of dopes if Darren Hughes chooses to play. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI come back to the bill and say that it is good to see that cheats are starting to get the message that it is not worth it and that they will get caught. I congratulate the Government on introducing this legislation and signing up as part of the international coalition of the willing opposed to the use of illegal performance-enhancing drugs and prepared to implement the Copenhagen Declaration on Anti-Doping in Sport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E We in the M\u0101ori Party also compliment the New Zealand Sports Drug Agency, its board and its staff, on being so resolute in advocating the apprehension of those who aim to cheat their way to success through the use of performance-enhancing drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESport is a megamillion-dollar business, as is the manufacture of illicit drugs. Mix the two and you see the ends to which greed will go to avoid detection. I disagree with the Minister for Sport and Recreation and I agree with the Executive Director of the New Zealand Sports Drug Agency, Graeme Steel. He wants the World Anti-Doping Agency to take cannabis off its prohibited substance list so it can concentrate on catching cheats who use performance-enhancing drugs, such as steroids, human-growth hormones, and erythropoietin. We also agree that the Sports Drugs Agency, with its limited resources, should not get sidetracked away from its primary role of being focused, efficient, and quick to respond to the key doping issues. We do not agree with sportspeople being stoned or drunk while participating in sport, but we also recognise that neither of those drugs enhances performance. Much time and resources can be wasted on policing the use of recreational drugs, whereas the use of performance-enhancing drugs is not getting the attention it should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhat is more, there is no evidence of widespread use of cannabis amongst New Zealand\u2019s elite athletes; and we congratulate them because there have been no positive cannabis tests in our top-level professional sports teams, like the All Blacks, the Warriors, the Kiwis, and the Silver Ferns. Resources are best put towards the catching of those cheats who use sophisticated means and sophisticated substances to escape detection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party does not believe that the use of illegal performance-enhancing drugs is rife in sport in Aotearoa. We also believe that more would be gained by encouraging athletes to not use recreational drugs, rather than use punitive measures against them. But we note too that society must always be vigilant. The Sports Drug Agency is a small body, and I note that it is expected to draft the rules, once the bill becomes law. Although I am advised there is a high degree of cooperation between the Sports Drug Agency and organisations like Sport and Recreation New Zealand, I would support consideration being given to extra resourcing to help the agency in drafting those rules. In conclusion, I again commend those responsible for this bill. The M\u0101ori Party will be supporting it. N\u014D reira huri noa, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002216c52e74cbe54cf49db85a5a86f6d492\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c52e74cbe54cf49db85a5a86f6d492\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to signal that we will support and vote for the Sports Anti-Doping Bill. I thought that the previous speaker, Hone Harawira, was a bit tough on William Webb Ellis, in classifying him as a cheat. I think there is actually a distinction between an innovator and a cheat, and I think that what William Webb Ellis did by picking up that ball and running was actually to bring a new innovation into sport\u2014one that has become the backbone of our national game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dea7424126dd4ff4af7b813a1f0a5dc6\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. William Webb Ellis was actually caned for what he did. He cheated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225249d32ba60a4a93b4f7390b987d9311\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the member that that may be interesting, but it is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006847c813e142cab85d3c73eef03268\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: That does not surprise me at all, because I am sure the teachers at Rugby School were a bunch of stuffy old\u2014I could use a word that I am not allowed to use in the House, which has been used by the previous Speaker of the House on a couple of occasions, I seem to recall\u2014people who would not have recognised an innovator if they had seen one. Many, many great innovators and great people were caned at school, and I have a few notches on my belt to prove that I am one of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EPerformance-enhancing drugs are the enemy of true sport. Only a dope would take dope. I remember that in the year 2000, when Peter Snell was declared to be the New Zealand sportsperson of the millennium, he was asked about performance-enhancing drugs and whether there were any around in his day. He said: \u201CNo, we did not need them.\u201D I think that encapsulates the true spirit of the proud sporting tradition of this country. We have produced a disproportionate number of great sportsmen and great sportswomen, and, for the most part we have done that without having to rely on performance-enhancing drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has a simply fabulous sporting history, and we should all be very proud of it. I remember that in the mid-1960s Sports Illustrated, an American sporting magazine that most members will have heard of, did a worldwide survey on sporting ability, related to the population of a country\u2014in other words, a per capita analysis of sporting greatness in the world. The big headline, which shows the time was the 1960s, was: \u201CMan for man, it\u2019s Australia\u201D. However, Australia got there because, in the world rugby rankings\u2014this was in the mid-1960s, would members believe\u2014Sports Illustrated had ranked the No. 1 rugby-playing nation of the world as being South Africa, the No. 2 rugby-playing nation as being Australia, and the No. 3 rugby-playing nation as being New Zealand. If the magazine had got it right, New Zealand would have been in second place, and the headline of that magazine would have read: \u201CMan for man, it\u2019s Kiwis\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EA huge dispute erupted. In fact, in subsequent copies of Sports Illustrated, which I remind members is an American magazine, several pages were devoted to letters from New Zealanders, stating it had got the rugby call completely wrong, and they provided all the statistics to prove it. The response of Sports Illustrated\u2019s editors, which was in the fine print at the bottom, was that the figures showed that Australia had had a better overall performance against South Africa than New Zealand had, and on that basis they concluded that Australia was No. 2. Of course, that completely overlooked the record between Australia and New Zealand, which at that stage was about 75 to 25 in our favour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAs others have mentioned, performance-enhancing drugs bring to mind some very tragic images, such as Flo Jo. From the moment I set eyes on Flo Jo, I thought to myself: \u201CI don\u2019t think so. I don\u2019t think the female body, pumping as much iron as it can over a period of time, could ever quite look like that.\u201D To my eyes her body was obviously unnatural, and sadly that was proved to be the case by her untimely death. Members will remember the images of the Chinese swimmers who came to one of the Olympic Games. Again, they were women. Some of them had shoulders that I think would have made any All Black prop happy. One of them was almost, would members believe, 1 metre wide across the shoulders. Those young women, of course, have all gone to early graves, as well. So the whole area of sports doping has a tragic history. It is all driven by national ambition, and so on. Those things are good, but they are not good when they go over the line into cheating and using artificial substances and steroids, which are thoroughly bad, not only for the human body but for sport itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EPerformance-enhancing drugs are actually an evil. They undermine sport itself by removing from it honesty, ethics, fairness, health, respect, courage, commitment, and solidarity. As a nation we should be proud to take a lead in this area, and make sure that we do all we can to eliminate any thought of a culture ever developing in this country that regards winning by any means as being, in any circumstances, remotely acceptable. It is not. As a previous speaker mentioned, and I agree with the point, at a certain age young men and women\u2014I am not sure of the age at which they do this\u2014make up their minds that they want to be an All Black, a Silver Fern, an athlete, a swimmer, a triathlete, a marathon runner, a cyclist, or whatever it is. At that level we must ensure that we get the point across very, very clearly that it is certainly not sporting\u2014in fact, it is the opposite\u2014to take performance-enhancing drugs. Otherwise, our country will have let loose a virus that will have tremendous long-term negative consequences for us. Performance-enhancing drugs, in short, have no redeeming features. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe support the bill, and we hope that, if necessary, the tribunal and others will come back to us if they need additional powers in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002206096f65cfb443bcbcaba69160ea0ea0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206096f65cfb443bcbcaba69160ea0ea0\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Athletic competition relies on a basic premise: one man\u2019s best against another\u2019s, one woman\u2019s best against another\u2019s, or one team\u2019s best against another\u2019s. The entire phenomenon of sport rests on that simple idea. When someone cheats, the value of victory becomes worthless. That is a key part of the very culture of this great sporting nation. Although we may push the rules\u2014even test them to the limit\u2014we are a nation that plays hard but fair. Fair competition is not a moral ideal; it is a basic principle, which is directly tied to the enjoyment of competing and the value of victory. The contest has more value when athletes compete cleanly. When there is a winner in clean sport, it means something. With doping, someone merely crosses the line first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EAs a result, the National Party supports the introduction of the bill. We believe that it will seek to preserve what is intrinsically valuable about sport, which is characterised by values such as honesty, ethics, fairness, health, respect, courage, commitment, and solidarity. The Sports Anti-Doping Bill will provide the legislative framework under which New Zealand can implement the World Anti-Doping Code, thereby playing its part in addressing the global problem of doping in sport. The bill will continue the role of the New Zealand Sports Drug Agency as the national anti-doping organisation, and it will be responsible for ensuring that New Zealand complies with the code.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EToday I would like to examine the need for such a bill. I want to explain exactly why doping is a real threat to sport. Let me break it down into three categories: firstly, fraud; secondly, the \u201CIf you can\u2019t beat them join them.\u201D phenomenon; and, thirdly, the health risks that are associated with doping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EFirst, let me talk about fraud. What I find unacceptable about doping is the fraud that it perpetuates. When I watch a game or a race, it is with the assumption that I am watching a clean contest. And it is not just me; sponsors pay millions of dollars to be associated with supposedly pure athleticism. It is a let-down, then, when I discover that drugs are involved. Do I personally care whether Tim Montgomery covered 100 metres in 9.78 seconds at the Grand Prix de Paris in 2002, if he had to inject himself with something first? No, I do not. But I am awestruck and inspired to see a clean athlete do it in a time of 9.8 seconds. What I am trying to get at is that the end does not matter as much as the means. Doping is an ethical issue, a scientific issue, and a health issue, but it is first and foremost a philosophical issue, and it is that analysis that has been neglected. As I have said previously, athletic competition relies on a basic premise: one person\u2019s best against another\u2019s. The entire phenomenon of sport rests on that simple idea. When someone cheats, the value of the victory becomes worthless; it is a fraud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ESecondly, I will talk about the \u201CIf you can\u2019t beat them join them.\u201D phenomenon. A second argument says that if so many athletes are doping, why do we not just let them do it? Then the playing field is level again\u2014game on! Well, that would obviously get rid of the fraud, but it would be hard to explain to New Zealand kids why the All Blacks were dropping dead on TV from cardiac arrest, or for one parent to explain to another that little Jimmy died because he took something to make the under-60-kilogram Ross Shield rugby team. He had to, of course, because everyone was doing it. If sports are allowed to become a pharmaceutical free-for-all, I no longer want anything to do with them, and not just because the drugs are unhealthy. There are, of course, plenty of outlets for cheap entertainment in our culture; there is no need to turn sport, which has the potential to be so much more, into one of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThirdly, let us look at the health risks. Of course, this is the most practical argument against doping concerns. Here is a statistic that has not received much air time: eight. That is the number of elite cyclists who have recently died suddenly from inexplicable heart failures. Cycling officials say those were freak tragedies. That is quite a coincidence, especially as most of the drugs popular with endurance athletes do more than improve their endurance. The drugs also dangerously thicken the athletes\u2019 blood. Death is the highest price to pay when one is willing to win at any cost, but even the lesser side effects of blood boosters and steroids range from inconvenient to horrific. Sadly, because of the shameful, secretive nature of doping, many of the most serious risks are unknown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EHere is a list of the current doping options available on the market, and some of their side effects. Firstly, let us look at stimulants, which have side effects that include increased blood pressure, aggression and anxiety, and increased and irregular heartbeat. Narcotic analgesics also have side effects. They are highly addictive, and can cause a loss of concentration, amongst other things. Anabolic agents have side effects of, in males, the development of breasts, premature baldness, and the shrinking and hardening of the testicles. In women they cause the development of male features, including facial hair, deepening of the voice, and a number of other things. Diuretics can cause dehydration, headaches, and kidney damage. Peptide glycoprotein hormones and analogues have side effects of the abnormal growth of the hands\u2014which Eric Roy talked about previously\u2014feet, face, and internal organs. Blood doping also has significant side effects, including blood clots and kidney damage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI personally do not like the health risk argument. Of course, it is perfectly valid, but it skirts the real issues at the heart of sports. In addition, the health risks have not proven to be a deterrent. Some athletes\u2014I am talking about a very small percentage\u2014say that if they could take a pill that would guarantee they would win an Olympic gold medal or a world series but would die 5 years later, they would still do it. Of course, they still are doing it. Although the Sports Anti-Doping Bill is important legislation to ensure that New Zealand is part of the wider anti-doping code, there is still a wider issue to be addressed in terms of the athletes themselves. The main problem that keeps us from understanding the doping problem is our reluctance\u2014or, in particular, the athletes\u2019 reluctance\u2014to talk about it. Two dozen athletes, seven of them medallists, were thrown out of the Olympics at Athens for failing or missing a drug test. That is a summer Olympics record. The world and US anti-doping agencies should be applauded for carrying out such an unpopular task. But let us not kid ourselves. Twenty-four dopers out of 10,500 athletes\u2014or just 0.2 percent\u2014is not something to gloat about, record or not. Even to the least cynical, the evidence from the Balco scandal, which was once again highlighted in this morning\u2019s paper in reference to Tim Montgomery, the recent Tours de France, and a few candid experts suggest that doping is far more epidemic than the 0.2 percent I have talked about today would indicate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EDoping received more media attention in Athens than at any previous Olympic Games. That drew a mixed reaction. The most alarming response came from the athletes themselves, many of whom appeared uninterested, uncomfortable, or ignorant. Some were even annoyed. Former sprinter Donovan Bailey said on CBC that he was sick of hearing about it. So that is it. The athletes are too focused to think about doping, or they are sick of it, and they are annoyed that the issue distracts from the moment of glory. That is fine\u2014understandable. But the essence of that attitude is absurd\u2014like dismissing the notion of crime while the burglar is still in the house. Athletes who train and compete clean should be furious, and they should not feel obligated to keep that to themselves. If a small percentage\u2014whatever that percentage may be, and I suggest that it is probably a lot higher than 0.2 percent\u2014of elite athletes are doping, the real question is why the other percentage is so silent while the cheaters steal their medals and sponsorship deals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EWhatever the reason, it is time for athletes to step forward and admit that doping is everybody\u2019s problem, and that it is especially harmful to clean athletes. This bill will go only some way to cleaning up the sector; the major responsibility still rests with the athletes themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b0d1872000c4440a1ca32f4bcba37e2\u0022\u003EImmigration Advisers Licensing Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f5d0c94b4284b46855ecea4cde21846\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022d70de877cd244e45a85e663dbac036b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d70de877cd244e45a85e663dbac036b6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill be now read a first time. It is my intention to move a motion referring the bill to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee at the end of the first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe bill creates a new regulatory framework for the regulation of individuals who provide immigration advice both onshore and offshore. Although many immigration advisers provide good services, there are currently insufficient regulatory constraints or market incentives to prevent some advisers from providing unethical or incompetent services. This legislation will bring New Zealand into line with countries such as Australia and Britain. By raising the standard of immigration advice, this bill will promote and protect the interests of migrants and potential migrants who receive immigration advice, and enhance the reputation of New Zealand as a migration destination. Migrants, their communities, and the reputable parties in the immigration advisory sector will welcome it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAs a local MP, I have all too often seen the destructive effect of unqualified or ill-intentioned immigration advice on the lives of my constituents. As a Minister, I am now pleased to have the opportunity to commend to the House the speedy passage of this much-needed bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAll immigration advisers who assist migrants wanting to live in New Zealand will be required to be licensed, unless exempt. That includes not-for-profit and offshore advisers. It will be an offence to provide immigration advice without a licence, unless exempt. Offenders could face a fine of up to $100,000, 7 years\u2019 imprisonment, or both. It will also be an offence for people to say that they are immigration advisers unless licensed or exempt, or to say that they are licensed to give advice when they are not. It is currently intended that the people exempt from having to hold a licence should include: those who provide immigration advice in an informal or family context where the advice is not provided systematically, or for a fee; offshore immigration advisers where the advice relates to applications for student visas or student permits; groups for which there is little consumer benefit to be gained from licensing, and there are sufficient processes in place to ensure competent and ethical conduct, for example, members of Parliament and their offices; and groups that are members of an occupation group that already has appropriate disciplinary procedures, for example, lawyers. The select committee will, no doubt, consider a range of submissions on these matters, and I will be interested to read the select committee report in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EOffshore advisers provide the first point of contact for many migrants, and it is crucial that they are included within the scope of this bill. Offshore advisers will be temporarily exempt from the licensing regime for 3 years, but will be allowed to opt in. This opt-in phase will last for 3 years after the Act comes fully into force, at which time offshore advisers will be required to be licensed. However, people who are ordinarily resident in New Zealand will be immediately subject to the regulation, including when they provide advice while overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe regulator will be called the Immigration Advisers Authority; it will be a statutory body within the Department of Labour, and will be headed by a registrar. The registrar will be appointed by the Chief Executive of the Department of Labour, under the State Sector Act 1988. The Minister of Immigration will be the relevant Minister. The Department of Labour is the appropriate host department, as the bill\u2019s objectives relate strongly to government immigration policies, which are currently managed within the Department of Labour. The bill provides for the transfer of the function to an alternative department, if appropriate, in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ETo ensure the independence of the authority from immigration decision-makers, the authority will sit separately from the immigration arm of the Department of Labour. In addition, no person who makes decisions on immigration matters, or who has been employed to do so within the previous 2 years, may be employed by the authority to decide licence applications, inspect premises, or investigate complaints. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe registrar may grant different types of licences depending on the competency of the applicant, such as provisional licences for new entrants in the industry. All licences must be reviewed on an annual basis. Details of licensed immigration advisers will be recorded and updated on a public register. This information will include who is licensed, how to contact an adviser, and whether an adviser is subject to any sanctions. To obtain and hold a licence, advisers must meet competency standards set by the registrar, which cover qualifications, experience, knowledge, and communication ability in English. They must also be fit to practise. This includes consideration of any previous convictions, bankruptcy, and unlawful status under the Immigration Act 1987. The registrar will also develop a code of conduct that sets out standards of professional and ethical conduct for licensed immigration advisers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EOne issue that has been raised with me by my colleague the Hon Lianne Dalziel, is whether people who have recently exercised any power of decision in relation to immigration matters should be prohibited from a licence. This has not been included in the bill, but I think it should be considered. Some people use previous positions involving immigration matters or immigration decision-making to generate business. It is important that there is no suggestion of improper advantage. A delay or stand-down period in the licensing of those people may help to achieve that goal. I invite the select committee to consider this and to report back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EEnforcement provisions cover administrative actions, complaints, and disciplinary procedures and offences and penalties. Administratively the Department of Labour must refuse to accept immigration applications from unlicensed immigration advisers, unless they are exempt. Complaints and disciplinary procedures against licensed advisers are both punitive and provide for consumer redress. The registrar will set up a complaints body to investigate complaints of negligence, incompetence, dishonest behaviour, or breaches of the code of conduct. Following the investigation of a complaint, the registrar may impose sanctions, including caution or censure, suspension or cancellation of a licence, payment of a penalty up to $10,000, and compensation to the complainant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere are two classes of offences: offences involving knowledge, where people have deliberately flouted the law; and those of strict liability that enable people to show that their breach of the law was not intentional, and that they have otherwise exercised all reasonable care. Imprisonment, and/or fines of up to $100,000 are provided as penalties for knowledge offences, and strict liability offences carry correspondingly lower penalties. Those penalties are compatible with existing provisions under both the Immigration Act 1987, and the Australian migration agent registration legislation. There is a right of appeal and review to the District Court. The courts are able to order payment of reparation and to order additional fines reflecting any commercial gain or material benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThere will be a staged implementation of this Act. A 12-month set-up phase will be followed by a further 12 months to allow immigration advisers to meet entry standards, apply for a licence, and be approved by the registrar. At this point all immigration advisers must be licensed, unless exempt or based offshore. Offshore advisers will be able to voluntarily opt in to the regime for a further 3 years, at the end of which time they will be required to be licensed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI thank the officials who have worked so hard to bring this bill to fruition today. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002288497d8bfe8a413d90ac8af1c0965f4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288497d8bfe8a413d90ac8af1c0965f4b\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E The National Opposition will be supporting the first reading of this bill and its consignment to the appropriate select committee. We do that because we accept that there are issues around the immigration consultancy business. As the Minister of Immigration just said, all of us, as members of Parliament, confront from time to time the problems that crop up as a result of unprofessional or incompetent immigration advice that potential immigrants receive, and we often have to sort out the resulting mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E My having said that, if we are trying just to bring some measure of reliability to this industry\u2014to assure potential immigrants that they can have some measure of confidence in immigration consultants\u2014I ask whether we need a bill of this size to do that. That is a big issue that will have to be examined by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. Is a major bureaucracy being established here that will grow? We know only too well that too often bureaucracies or regulatory bodies are envisaged as quite small when they start out, but, my God, do they grow!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me give an example of that. When I was Minister of Education I used to run the entire tertiary sector\u2014because in those days I was Minister of the school sector, the early childhood sector, and the tertiary sector\u2014with a team of about 15-30 people in the Ministry of Education. Now we have a regulatory body called the Tertiary Education Commission that employs over 300 people to do the same job, and it does that job far less competently than I used to do it when I was Minister with a tiny little team in the Ministry of Education. It is a classic example of how regulatory bodies just grow like Topsy with no accountability. Ministers think these bodies will do a wonderful job, and no longer take a key interest in their activities, and then we see a bureaucratic monster develop. So our first concern is that if we look at this legislation and the nature of that regulatory body, we see there is potential for major bureaucratic growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELabour loves that sort of thing. We all know that Labour thinks bureaucracy is wonderful. It has employed so many more bureaucrats in the last 3 years that the increase in just the core public sector wage bill\u2014forget teachers, police, and nurses; I mean just the core sector\u2014is now a billion dollars a year, because of the number of bureaucrats this Labour Government has employed in recent times. Labour is not afraid of bureaucracy, but we on this side of the House are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think concerns will also be expressed that the regulatory body is within the Department of Labour. I know that it is meant to be separate from the Immigration Service within that department, but colleagues of mine will probably express some concern about the visibility of that separateness and the risk of conflicts emerging there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut today I want to put a little bit of time into the issue of exemptions. We know that not all those involved in giving immigration advice will have to be licensed, and one group of people who are exempt under this bill is\u2014believe it or not\u2014members of Parliament. What do we know about the ethical behaviour of members of Parliament on matters of immigration advice? We know that most members of Parliament are pretty reliable in those areas but, my goodness, the track record recently of some on the Labour side of the House shows they clearly are not!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe are about to license and regulate immigration advisers under this legislation, but a member of Parliament\u2014a former Minister, the honourable Taito Phillip Field\u2014saw nothing unethical about dealing with an overstayer who had sought refugee status with his wife, was declined that status, and overstayed in this country. As I understand, the wife was arrested and deported back to Thailand. That member of Parliament saw nothing unethical in dealing with that illegal overstayer. I do not know why any member of Parliament would think he or she should be involved with illegal overstayers, but, still, Taito Phillip Field seemed to think it was OK to offer that illegal overstayer work in Samoa, where Taito Phillip Field\u2019s wife could get him a work permit. He saw nothing unethical in telling that illegal overstayer that if he went to Samoa and worked on that member\u2019s new house, he would get him a work permit to come back to New Zealand 3 months later. That person, Taito Phillip Field, will be exempt from any licensing requirement under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is one of the worst examples, and I am not sure that in my time as a member of Parliament I have come across any immigration adviser or consultant operating near my electorate whose ethics are as bad as that. I am not sure that I have come across any immigration adviser who has said to someone: \u201CLook, if you tile my house, I will help get you a work permit.\u201D Taito Phillip Field also said to a painter that if he painted a house that the member had bought under certain unscrupulous terms from a poor person in his electorate, he would help him get a work permit. That sort of person is exempted from the requirements of this legislation, and we on this side of the House say: \u201CWell, hang on. If we want to sort out the problems around immigration in this country, how do we make the system work when members of Parliament have no constraints on them?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAt the moment, in the case of Taito Phillip Field, the Minister of Immigration is refusing to accept any accountability whatsoever in terms of the involvement of the Minister of Immigration in this fiasco concerning Taito Phillip Field, because the Prime Minister has set up a commission of inquiry. And what has happened to the commission of inquiry? A key player, the guy who blew the whistle on Sunan Siriwan\u2014the guy Taito Phillip Field got to retile his house in Samoa for the promise of a work permit here in New Zealand\u2014the builder who went to Samoa to work on Taito Phillip Field\u2019s house, as well, which is how he knew about Sunan Siriwan, is refusing to speak to the inquiry being held by Noel Ingram QC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo what a farce we have. Here we have legislation to try to make the Immigration Service put some decent boundaries, some certainty, and some professional behaviour around immigration advisers and consultants, but Labour members of Parliament, who will be exempt from the licensing and regulatory requirements of this legislation, are displaying behaviour that is totally unethical. If they were immigration consultants, they would probably be charged under various of our other laws, but as members of Parliament those Labour members are able to get away with the Prime Minister setting up a mickey mouse inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EPeople knew what went on. People knew what Taito Phillip Field was up to. People like the former Minister the Hon Paul Swain knew what Taito Phillip Field was up to, because he visited his house in Samoa and met the Thai tiler whom Taito Phillip Field had promised a work permit. What is becoming outrageous now is that this Labour Government will not pay for people who know what went on to get legal advice. It will not pay for people to have legal advice as they give evidence to that inquiry. Therefore, it is a farce, because people are refusing to appear in order to be interviewed by Noel Ingram QC. So what will we get? A cover-up\u2014a snow job!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHere we have legislation that will tie our immigration consultants up in bureaucratic knots, and Labour members of Parliament, who put in hundreds of representations to the Minister\u2014most of which, it seems, are for people who should not be getting residence or permits to come to New Zealand\u2014are exempt from it. That is just one of the reasons why National has concerns about this legislation. It is typical of Labour\u2019s \u201Clook good\u201D kind of legislation whereby Labour sets up a whole big, bureaucratic machine and makes it look as if something is being done, but in fact the legislation has huge holes that Labour members of Parliament can exploit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a07ea608830d42d58c079b807727d1ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a07ea608830d42d58c079b807727d1ac\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E There is a degree of irony in following on from a speaker who is from a National Government that refused to license immigration advisers. It had the opportunity to do so with amendments to the legislation in 1999, and, in fact, I was standing on the other side of the House, as the Opposition spokesperson on immigration, asking for amendments to the Act in 1999 in order to bring in a licensing regime. As soon as I became Minister of Immigration, we started to put together a process that has brought us to today. Yes, it has been a lengthy process, but that is because it has been a robust one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWe have done a lot more for immigration in this country than any other Government in New Zealand\u2019s history, because we have brought in a proper process that has enabled people to have some assurance about the way in which the immigration process will apply. This is the Government that recognised that what happened after people arrived in New Zealand mattered to them; that the National Government did not care about what happened to migrants after they arrived in New Zealand. This legislation is an important plank of the settlement strategy that this Government had the ability to bring in, but that Government did nothing. All it did was count the numbers of people coming into the country; it did not care what happened to them after they arrived. That Government did not mind that there were doctors driving taxis; it did not mind that highly qualified information technology specialists were working in takeaway bars. It did not care that highly qualified business people ended up running takeaway bars to get residence in this country, in order to escape from a particular environment they did not want to live in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWho was standing in the way of those people? Who actually made sure that a number of people came here with high expectations but no ability to live up to those expectations? It was immigration consultants who did not care what happened to those migrants after they arrived here, and a Government that did not care what happened, either. This Government is a caring Government; it has put into place a settlement strategy that is second to none in the world, and it has now brought in a licensing regime. Yes, I would have liked to see that brought in earlier, but I am glad that it is here now, and I pay full tribute to the Hon David Cunliffe, and also to the Hon Paul Swain, who did the preliminary work on bringing it in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis legislation has been well negotiated with the industry, and it is interesting that the good immigration consultants are the ones who say \u201CThis is great!\u201D, because it will clean up the industry, and the consultants who are doing the job properly will make sure there is an ethical framework within which they can operate. Lawyers operating in the field of immigration are covered by ethical standards, by fees revision\u2014they cannot charge contingency arrangements\u2014and by disciplinary procedures. There is proper protection in place for people who use lawyers. There have been no protections in place for people who use immigration consultants apart from disputes resolution and general consumer protection law. The trouble is that those consultants promise the earth. If it is not delivered and the person\u2019s permit expires, the immigration consultant does not have to deal with the fallout; the person must deal with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI heard a member talking about illegal overstayers. All overstayers are illegally in the country; that is what overstaying is. The point that I am making, though, is that the reason many of them become overstayers is that the proper applications have not been filed in a timely manner. This bill will make sure there is a proper process in place to ensure that people are able to be properly looked after, and that those who hold themselves out as offering a service are actually capable of delivering on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe last point that I want to make is about the ethics of people who leave the Immigration Service\u2019s offices and set up as immigration consultants, and the ethics of members of Parliament, including a former Prime Minister and former Ministers of Immigration, who leave Parliament and set themselves up as immigration consultants. What they do is the most unethical practice that one could possibly even imagine. I know that some members in this House have relationships with some of those former members of Parliament who have taken up immigration consultancy work. They do not care about our country. They use their former positions to open doors that should not be opened to them. They should be slammed in their faces, because they have no right to abuse their former position in order to gain personally in the way that they have attempted to do\u2014by bringing thousands of people into this country who have no chance of settling and without a word of English between them\u2014without any obligations because of the way the law was set up under a National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am proud of what I was able to do in the time that I was the Minister of Immigration, because we closed off loopholes that those members opposite know perfectly well were being exploited by former National members of Parliament, including former National Ministers and a former National Prime Minister. It is an absolute outrage, and I look forward to this bill providing an opportunity for some ethical framework for the operation of immigration consultants. I do not know why Pansy Wong is standing up while I am still talking, but it just looks as if she still does not know how the procedures of this House operate, even though she has been here for quite a while. Obviously, she knows perfectly well who I am talking about in terms of connections with people who are abusing their former positions in order to gain personally in a way that is intolerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI just want to make a point about former Ministers who actually do go out and practise in this field in order to take full advantage of opportunities that should not be made available to them. It is an outrage, and we are seeing one example being played out in another forum not so far from here. I remember sitting on a select committee and exposing what I saw happening. A former Minister of Immigration had used a policy that he was very well attuned to, then had abused a change that I had brought in to enable a talent visa operation, with the effect that an immigrant would pay a $45,000 salary to an employer that the employer would pay back to him or her. It was a money-go-round. It was absolutely, utterly, and completely unethical, and it would have been found to be illegal if we had not exposed it before it was put into place. I want to know why we have allowed that situation to occur. It really does reflect somewhat on people who were once honourable members of this House, but who will never be regarded as such in anyone\u2019s eyes again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. I think it is an excellent opportunity for us to draw a line in the sand. If people are to operate as immigration consultants\u2014and the good ones support this bill\u2014then we will see a situation where immigration consultants will be able to hold their heads up, because what they are doing is in accordance with ethical standards, and there will be disciplinary procedures that will enable them to be struck off and not allowed to practise if, indeed, they do cross that line. I think it is important that we provide that protection for new migrants to New Zealand; they deserve nothing less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022236588d018964f3bae9bfaca1aceef48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022236588d018964f3bae9bfaca1aceef48\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Before we pick up on the point about former immigration Ministers and a former Prime Minister, how about talking about existing Labour Ministers and MPs. Who did more to undermine the New Zealand Immigration Service? The honourable Taito Phillip Field asked the Associate Minister of Immigration in the Labour Government to intervene in 438 cases, followed by the Hon Chris Carter, with 176 cases, and by the Hon George Hawkins, with 172 cases. In the last 3 years when people have come to my office, my staff have taken them through the proper procedures. In 3 years I have made only 12 representations because people need to respect our immigration process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIf Ministers and MPs abuse their positions, that undermines our immigration policies, and I wonder what part of the bill deals with that issue. Nobody should take too much notice of the member who has just spoken. She did more to undermine the New Zealand Immigration Service by doubting her staff and by not telling the truth to reporters. Who planted material for reporters to find? That behaviour is becoming a hallmark of the Labour Government. That former Minister of Immigration promised that this bill would be in the House in 1999, in 2000, and in 2001. Well, I have news for the Labour Government: even though it has put this House into urgency, we are still in December of the year 2005. So it is a very slow process, and I am surprised that the Hon David Cunliffe now wants to put pressure on the select committee to pass this bill in a hurry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThere are other problems with the bill because, as I said previously, the Labour Government is really suffering from what I would call \u201Ctruth deficiency syndrome\u201D. It will not tell us the cost of setting up this new bureaucracy to regulate immigration advisers, but, as Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith pointed out, it will grow. I ask how much it will cost. We are told in the bill that the Crown will be responsible for the cost of setting up this system and administering the system in relation to individuals who are exempt, or for non-profit individuals who are offering advice. Otherwise, the commercial advisers will be charged $1,000 to $2,000 per year. The bill also mentions that there are about 1,000 advisers in the sector. On the surface, that figure sounds OK; we might have a million dollars to run the system. But if we follow the Government\u2019s logic, we are told that there were only 9,000 applications for residency in 2003\u20149,000 only\u2014that were handled by advisers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAccording to my calculations, and I am a qualified accountant, that means those advisers are doing about nine cases per year. We were told that about 66,000 applications for temporary visas were handled by advisers, which means that full-time commercial advisers would survive doing about, say, six per week. So how many full-time advisers actually exist in that sector? If we are being told by the Government that 1,000 advisers would be affected by this legislation, then I have news for the Labour Government: no adviser can survive by doing so few cases per month. So who will pay the additional costs that will be required to run the system? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe second weakness of the immigration legislation that is before us is that the type of people this legislation aims to regulate handle only 37 percent of the total applications for residency and 17 percent of the other type of visa. Forty percent of those advisers are actually based overseas. This legislation in the next 3 years will not include those overseas consultants, hence we will regulate only the sector that deals with about 20 percent of total applications. We are passing this legislation to deal with people who handle only 20 percent of the cases. How effective is this legislation in resolving the situation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe advisers who have come to see me raised the issue of some of the powers contained in the legislation\u2014for example, the inspection power for administration of the licensing regime. We have just learnt that the new body will exist within the Immigration Service. One of its powers will be that its inspectors can, at any reasonable time, enter any premises where any licensed immigration advisers work or have worked in the last 2 years, or where the inspector has reasonable grounds for believing that a licensed immigration adviser has worked there in the last 2 years, and those inspectors have every right to question any licensed immigration advisers and to look at documents in the advisers\u2019 possession. National has some great lawyers in its team, like Chris Finlayson. No doubt he will point out and highlight for us whether this type of extremely wide power should be exercised in that manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe well-behaved members of the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment have brought this up as a major concern. They ask why their members should be subject to an organisation with such a wide-ranging power. So we certainly want to examine the type of power that will be given to the inspectors under this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI also question why, after 5 years and after what we will call the knee-jerk reactions and changes to the immigration policy, we have seen the international student numbers reduce by 10,000 and the net immigration flow decrease from about 30,000 to 6,000 in the year ended October. The period when there were a lot of problems with immigration advisers was from 2001 to 2002. Now that we are hardly attracting international students, etc., the Government wants to bring in this legislation; the number of immigration advisers affected could be in the hundreds only. The Government has seen fit to bring in this legislation when it is almost like the horses have bolted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELastly, I want to raise the very good point made by my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith. I want to see, on an annual basis, some disclosure of the number of direct representations made by members of Parliament to the Ministers for special consideration. The Associate Minister of Immigration disclosed that, annually, he has to intervene in 4,000 cases. That means he has to look at about 12 individual cases daily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00220aeedfab2f9648cfa6d55e186ae9f815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220aeedfab2f9648cfa6d55e186ae9f815\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I first would like to comment on some of the points made by the Hon Lianne Dalziel. She said that immigration in this country had improved because the Labour Government was doing this and that. In fact, it has improved to some degree over what it was when Labour came into power\u2014I recognise that\u2014but it has very little to do with the Labour Government. From New Zealand First\u2019s point of view it was like pulling teeth. More particularly, from Winston Peters\u2019 point of view it was like pulling teeth. The Government would not have done a single thing. It was quite happy with open-door immigration. Whoever wanted to come here could come here and stay here. It was not worried about overstayers, the English test, or a darn thing until New Zealand First and, principally, Winston Peters highlighted the issues. There is a long way to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe previous Minister, the Hon Paul Swain, only a little while ago when he was talking to a group of professionals, described the immigration legislation in this country as a \u201Cdog\u2019s breakfast\u201D. I do not want to go back to the Veterinarians Bill because we had enough of that last night, but I can tell members that in those two words the honourable previous Minister made it quite clear what he thought of the current immigration laws. Just to reinforce that, let me read the extract from the enhanced confidence and supply agreement with New Zealand First: \u201CImmigration: conduct a full review of immigration legislation and administrative practices within the immigration service, to ensure the system meets the needs of New Zealand in the 21st century and has appropriate mechanisms for ensuring the system is not susceptible to fraud or other abuse, and taking note of other items raised by New Zealand First.\u201D I was there when that clause was presented to Labour. Helen Clark and Dr Cullen could not sign it quickly enough. They said, \u201CYes, Winston, yes, Peter, you\u2019re absolutely right. We want to tidy up the Act.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is a fantastically beautiful country. It is filled, in large measure, with hard-working people. There are some exceptions, and some of those sit across the Chamber. Tau Henare is one of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aad1ce58c9e9415b88a84444a9e6ec69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aad1ce58c9e9415b88a84444a9e6ec69\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Waka jumper!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c06e6892dc1d4997924339919316b85b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c06e6892dc1d4997924339919316b85b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: He is a waka jumper. He has been in five political parties. Sorry, he has been in four, because one was a sham. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278489d3e164444d3aeaf2fdd3b70fdd3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He has sat in every seat in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022489a7cf6e3bb45d0a0998e6c621bfe2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022489a7cf6e3bb45d0a0998e6c621bfe2e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: He has, including one outside. This is a fantastic country. It is filled, in large measure, with hard-working people. Another asset this country has\u2014and on a worldwide basis this is being recognised more and more\u2014is that there are not too many of us. That is a huge asset for this country. If members do not believe me, they should look at the people who come here because they want to get away from where they have been or where they live right now. We must put a value on the low population. Of course we need immigrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002214b7043a079f4ea6901e9782b364f40d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214b7043a079f4ea6901e9782b364f40d\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: More people like the member!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8efb3652fdd4bb591c35b9588a16c55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8efb3652fdd4bb591c35b9588a16c55\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly like the member. Immigrants should come here and offer the country a skill. That is the first priority. They must have good health. They should be crime free, and remain crime free. They should be able to speak English, and they should be prepared to integrate into New Zealand society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill is about the gatekeepers for a system that is letting people in. It is absolutely imperative, if we want desirable people to come here who will make a contribution, that the gatekeepers\u2014the immigration consultants or advisers\u2014are top-notch people also. We can do this only by regulation. New Zealand First has been an advocate for this sort of legislation for many a year. It is sad that it has taken the Labour Government 6 years or so to even get round to it. I heard the Hon Dr Lockwood Smith say that this could lead to too much bureaucracy. He may have a point there. But I say to National Party members that New Zealand First would prefer there to be too much bureaucracy than too many undesirables coming here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1a7b09eaf074cecb6d576317b1eaf82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1a7b09eaf074cecb6d576317b1eaf82\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: And too much corruption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002202db95ea0fd64b5f8c5d5f761f2030bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202db95ea0fd64b5f8c5d5f761f2030bd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: And too much corruption, as the honourable member said. This is a very important bill. It makes up a very small part of the confidence and supply agreement, but it is a move in the right direction. There are some aspects of the bill that concern me, on first reading. It basically states that people will be prohibited from being licensed. We agree with everything that is in here, but we also think it could be a little bit more stringent in this regard. What about the people who are prone to having violent outbursts? If they have a criminal sentence, they are barred from being a practitioner. But what about the people who are prone to violence? Will we allow those sorts of people to become immigration advisers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI will touch on just a couple of things that concern me on the surface. A register of licensed advisers will be kept by the registrar. The bill refers to the data that the registrar is going to keep on the database, but there is no reference to the fees or the methods of payment, etc. I believe that immigrants\u2014who tend to feel quite vulnerable coming to a new county\u2014should be advised on not only who is a suitable immigration consultant or adviser to speak to and refer problems to, but also on the level of fees or payments that are reasonably acceptable. We know from information given to us that some huge amounts of money are passing over from various hands to come into this country. It is huge money. One has to ask whether it is fairly earned, because New Zealand First has real concerns about how some people pay for the services of an immigration adviser. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI will conclude by saying that immigration is a problem area not only for this country but also on a worldwide basis. It is an area that New Zealand First has endeavoured to highlight for, now, many a year, and we are not going to let go of the issue. We will keep on keeping on until we have an immigration policy and immigration legislation that actually reflects the needs of the people of this country. New Zealanders are warm-hearted people who give a welcome to most people who come to these shores. They are entitled to know that the system protects them from undesirables, from criminals, and from people who have exceedingly bad health or who just want to rip off the country. This is the first step forward. We look forward to working with the Labour Party over the next 3 years under our confidence and supply agreement and tidying up many, if not all, of the immigration problems that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00229193ce0a2d7f4428bc33c345d26a295a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229193ce0a2d7f4428bc33c345d26a295a\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E In joining this debate on the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill, I wish to refer to the Treaty of Waitangi. I also wish to begin my remarks by speaking in the official language of this country: te reo M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koutou! Kua oti k\u0113 taku m\u014Dhio, ki \u0113tahi \u014D koutou ko te Tiriti o Waitangi he mea kino. He mea whakawhiu, whakawehe, whakapau tangata. Ki \u0113tahi hoki o koutou ko te Tiriti o Waitangi ko ng\u0101 ker\u0113me kua whakatakotoria i raro i te maru o te taraipiunara. Ki a koutou r\u0101, he gravy train t\u0113n\u0101. Atu ki \u0113nei, kei te m\u014Dhio ahau ko \u0113tahi o koutou, k\u0101re i te m\u014Dhio he aha te take ka k\u014Drero M\u0101ori m\u0101tou i roto i te Whare nei. He mea tino h\u014Dh\u0101 t\u0113nei ki a koutou ki te rongo mai ki te tangi o te reo M\u0101ori, \u0101, ka t\u0101ria te whakam\u0101rama i roto i te reo P\u0101keh\u0101. T\u0101tau m\u0101! Ko m\u0101tau te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori! K\u014Drero M\u0101ori m\u0101tau i \u0113tahi w\u0101, \u0101, ka kawea rawatia e m\u0101tau ng\u0101 kaupapa, ng\u0101 tikanga o ng\u0101 t\u012Bpuna M\u0101ori kua heke iho nei, mai i ng\u0101 whakatipuranga, \u0101, tae noa mai ki a m\u0101tau o t\u0113nei w\u0101. Ka whai haere m\u0101tau i ng\u0101 tapuwae o \u014D m\u0101tau t\u016Bpuna, ar\u0101, \u014D T\u0101 Apirana Ngata, \u014D T\u0101 Turi Kara, \u014D T\u0101 M\u0101ui P\u014Dmare m\u0101. Ko m\u0101tau nei te kanohi M\u0101ori o te r\u0101 nei, he reo M\u0101ori e t\u016B motuhake ana hei m\u0101ngai m\u014D ng\u0101 hap\u016B, me ng\u0101 rohe M\u0101ori o Aotearoa nei. N\u0101 reira, kei warewaretia e ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata o Aotearoa nei te \u0101hua o te tangata whenua, ka k\u014Drero M\u0101ori ahau i t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga o aku k\u014Drero. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI te 6 o ng\u0101 r\u0101 o P\u0113puere 1840, i hainatia te Tiriti o Waitangi. I hainatia e ng\u0101 rangatira o ng\u0101 hap\u016B M\u0101ori, me te \u0101piha m\u014D te Kuini Wikit\u014Dria, te Karauna ki Ingarangi. N\u0101 te mea i hainatia e r\u0101tau, e ng\u0101 rangatira M\u0101ori he kawenata, ki a m\u0101tau nei he kawenata, \u0101, n\u0101 te mea hoki i hainatia e Te H\u0101puku o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, n\u0101ku an\u014D i haina. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira ki \u0113tahi o koutou, ko te Tiriti he kaupapa tawhito. He kaupapa h\u014Dh\u0101, he kaupapa moumou t\u0101ima. Ki ahau nei ki te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, ki te iwi M\u0101ori wh\u0101nui ko te Tiriti he kaupapa matua, he kaupapa h\u014Dhonu, he kaupapa tika m\u014D t\u0101tau katoa m\u014D Aotearoa i t\u0113nei w\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EHe aha te take ka k\u014Drero p\u0113nei ai au i t\u0113nei w\u0101? N\u0101 te mea kei roto i te Tiriti ng\u0101 w\u0101riu, ng\u0101 uaratanga h\u014Dhonu rawa kia whakakotahi ai t\u0101tau i a Aotearoa i t\u0113nei w\u0101, \u0101, m\u014D te w\u0101 e heke mai nei. Kei roto i te Tiriti o Waitangi ng\u0101 kaupapa matua o te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. Kua whakar\u0101rangitia \u0113nei kaupapa i roto i t\u0101 m\u0101tau mana t\u014Dp\u016B, ar\u0101, te T\u016B Tohinga m\u014D te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Greetings to all. I am aware that some members do not view the Treaty of Waitangi positively. It is seen as oppressive, divisive, and a waste of human resources. To some, the Treaty of Waitangi means the claims under the Waitangi Tribunal. To them, the claims are a gravy train. In addition, I know that some members are not really aware why we speak M\u0101ori in this House. To some members, hearing M\u0101ori spoken is something quite annoying, as well as having to wait for it to be translated into English. I say to members that we are the M\u0101ori Party. At times we will speak M\u0101ori and articulate the philosophical beliefs of our M\u0101ori ancestors handed down to successive generations and to us of this era. We follow in the footsteps of our ancestors Sir Apirana Ngata, Sir James Carroll, Sir M\u0101ui P\u014Dmare, and others. We are the face of M\u0101oridom today, a M\u0101ori voice that stands apart to act as representatives for M\u0101ori subtribes and regions here in New Zealand. So to serve as a reminder to the people of New Zealand about this aspect of the indigenous people of the land, I present this part of my address in M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe Treaty of Waitangi was signed on 6 February 1840 by chiefs of M\u0101ori subtribes, and an official on behalf of Queen Victoria, the Queen of England. Because the M\u0101ori chiefs signed a covenant, to us anyway it is one, and because Te H\u0101puku of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu signed it as well, I consider myself a signatory too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ETo some members the Treaty is a document that is past its \u201Cuse by\u201D date\u2014one that is bothersome and a waste of time. To me, the M\u0101ori Party, and to the M\u0101ori people at large, the Treaty is a founding document, its principles are deep, and it is appropriate for all of us of New Zealand today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWhy am I talking like this now? It is because within the Treaty are the values and aspirations of immense depth that we can use to unite New Zealand as one today and tomorrow. In the Treaty are the key principles of the M\u0101ori Party that are listed in our M\u0101ori Party charter, our policy document.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00220fe7eeca51904de89a17621e81d97758\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fe7eeca51904de89a17621e81d97758\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is very interesting listening to the member, and there are obviously some issues that he wants to get across, but it sounds like he is giving a speech on the wrong bill. This is the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill and I think there is some obligation on the member to at least refer to the bill and to talk about its content. It is a first reading speech, not a speech summarising the end of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002283282ba67cb04f9c95cbf3044a2acac8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283282ba67cb04f9c95cbf3044a2acac8\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising that point. I was just about to bring it to the member\u2019s attention myself. It is important that the member relates whatever he is saying to the bill before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022f805649f68d4435f875b2cab13104010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f805649f68d4435f875b2cab13104010\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES\u003C/span\u003E: If the member had waited one more verse he might have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad7ddad8f1647e5970ac4e9521a415a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you were coming to it, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022e244d26ede2e44148d694897decfefef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e244d26ede2e44148d694897decfefef\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES\u003C/span\u003E: Ka kaha taku tautoko i te Tiriti o Waitangi i t\u0113nei w\u0101 n\u0101 te mea ko te Tiriti te t\u016B tohinga tuatahi m\u014D te hekenga mai o ng\u0101 manene ki Aotearoa nei. I whakaae ng\u0101 rangatira M\u0101ori i roto i te Tiriti kia whakaheke mai a tauiwi, ar\u0101, ng\u0101 manene o Ingarangi ki Aotearoa nei noho ai. N\u0101 t\u0113nei au i k\u012B, he kaupapa tino pai rawa atu te Tiriti o Waitangi hei kaupapa wh\u0101riki m\u014D t\u0101tau, he punga hoki m\u014D t\u014D t\u0101tau noho tahi. Ko te Tiriti he kaupapa whakakotahi i a t\u0101tau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[I strongly support the Treaty today because it was really the first charter for migrants who migrated here to New Zealand. In the Treaty the M\u0101ori chiefs allowed foreigners, that is migrants from England, to settle here in New Zealand. This is the reason why I stated that the Treaty of Waitangi is truly a fine philosophy for us, as a foundation, and also as something to anchor us together. The Treaty is a means of making us one.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think I am allowed more time because of the translation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022f47eb47567484cf181b41f3c4a25b263\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f47eb47567484cf181b41f3c4a25b263\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you are in good hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee89ec14797e4c6e95eb9357be9d9090\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee89ec14797e4c6e95eb9357be9d9090\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES\u003C/span\u003E: E te Matua Rangatira ka k\u014Drero ahau ki t\u0113nei Pire. N\u0101 te iwi M\u0101ori i whakat\u016B te Ratonga Manene tuatahi i roto i te Tiriti i t\u0113r\u0101 rau tau neke atu. \u0112rangi, mai i taua w\u0101 tae noa ki t\u0113nei w\u0101, n\u0101 te K\u0101wanatanga anake i whakatakoto ture m\u014D te whakahaeke manene. N\u014D r\u0101tau an\u014D t\u0113nei ratonga manene. Ki a m\u0101tau o te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori kua tae ki te w\u0101 kia uru atu te tangata whenua ki roto i te roopu whiriwhiri kaupapa m\u014D te ratonga manene kia noho te tangata whenua ki roto i t\u0113nei roopu, ar\u0101, te Immigration Advisers Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EKei te tautoko m\u0101tau i te pire nei. N\u0101 t\u0113nei pire ka whakatakoto ai te kaupapa kia uru pai ai ng\u0101 manene ki roto i te ao o Aotearoa nei, kia ng\u0101wari ai \u014D r\u0101tau noho i waenganui i a t\u0101tau. He pire nui m\u014D t\u0101tau i t\u0113nei w\u0101 n\u0101 te mea ka haere mai ng\u0101 manene ki konei n\u014D ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101, n\u014D ng\u0101 pito katoa o te ao. Me kaha t\u0101tau ki manaaki, ki te awhi i a r\u0101tau. Me kaha t\u0101tau ki te ako kia m\u014Dhio t\u0101tau i \u014D r\u0101tou tikanga, \u0101, ki te tautoko i ng\u0101 rerek\u0113tanga i waenganui i ng\u0101 iwi katoa o Aotearoa nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI roto i aku mahi i ng\u0101 tau kua pahure ake, i rongo ahau i ng\u0101 \u0101wangawanga maha kei roto i ng\u0101 manene h\u014Du. Ko \u0113tahi o t\u0101tau k\u0101re i te tino manaaki i a r\u0101tau n\u014D te mea, he tikanga k\u0113 \u0101 r\u0101tau, he reo rerek\u0113, he h\u0101hi wairua k\u0113, he kiri rerek\u0113 r\u0101nei. M\u0101 te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e k\u012B, m\u0113n\u0101 e whakaae ana t\u0101tau kia hara mai r\u0101tau ki konei noho ai, me manaakitia, me \u0101whinatia r\u0101tau. Kia kaua t\u0101tau e whakat\u016B whawhai \u0101-iwi p\u0113r\u0101 i t\u0113r\u0101 i Cronulla, i Ahitereiria i t\u0113nei w\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EKi te k\u014Drero i puta mai i te National Business Review i Hepetema\u2014Mahuru\u2014i t\u0113r\u0101 tau, k\u0101hore t\u0101tau katoa o Aotearoa nei e tautoko ana i ng\u0101 momo manene kua heke mai nei. I t\u0113r\u0101 tatau p\u014Dti 45 \u014Drau i k\u012B he nui rawa atu ng\u0101 manene o \u0100hia i konei, 39 \u014Drau i k\u012B he nui rawa ng\u0101 manene o te Middle East, 39 \u014Drau i k\u012B he nui rawa ng\u0101 manene o ng\u0101 moutere o Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa i konei. N\u0101 reira t\u0101tau m\u0101 an\u014D ahau e k\u012B, ki te whakapuare i te kuaha ki ng\u0101 manene, \u0101, kia kaha t\u0101tau ki te manaaki i a r\u0101tau. \u0100, kua mutu i konei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[I address this Bill by saying that over 100 years ago the M\u0101ori people established the first immigration policy through the Treaty. But from that time to the present, only the Government has been involved in determining immigration laws. This is a Government policy as well. We of the M\u0101ori Party say that the time has arrived for the tangata whenua to be involved in formulating immigration policy and also to be represented on the Immigration Advisers Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe support this Bill. It provides a policy that ensures safe entry for migrants into the New Zealand way of life and makes it easy for them to settle in amongst us. It is an important bill for us now because migrants come here from the four winds and from all points of the world. We must work hard to look after them and to embrace them. We must work hard to learn about their ways so that we can understand them, and to support the differences among all peoples here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn jobs I have been employed on in the past, I heard many concerns relating to new migrants. Some of us were not really welcoming to them, because their customs, languages, spiritual beliefs, and ethnicity were different from ours. The declared position of the M\u0101ori Party is that we allow them to come here and live. We should look after them and help them. We must not replicate the racial riots like the recent ones in Cronulla, Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAccording to a statement published in the National Business Review of September last year, we here in New Zealand were not in total support of the types of migrants who migrated here. In the last poll, 45 percent stated that there were too many Asian migrants here, 39 percent stated that there were too many Middle Eastern migrants, and 39 percent stated that there were too many Pacific Islanders here. And so I say again, if we open the door to migrants we should also work hard to look after them. I conclude my address here.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00221523ba9b61984c5fbdbc139907bd387e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221523ba9b61984c5fbdbc139907bd387e\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wanted to raise a question in response to the point made by the Hon Paul Swain in his point of order, and also that Dr Sharples raised in relation to the time available to members when speaking in M\u0101ori and then having a translation. I also raise it because of the difficulty for members to follow the eloquence of Dr Sharples and other members who speak in M\u0101ori, because of the broken time with the translation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI ask you to consider, and your office to consider, the question of simultaneous translation in this House. I know it is an issue that has been mentioned by other members outside of the Chamber\u2014I think of Tim Barnett in particular, and I know that other members have considered it\u2014but I really think it is time that this House started to address the question of simultaneous translation. We are officially a bilingual nation and I think it is ludicrous that we cannot provide that facility in this Parliament. I ask you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to consider how that issue might be progressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022fba867bc5a664892ae86882ad8a753d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fba867bc5a664892ae86882ad8a753d1\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising the issue. I can tell the member that the Speaker and the Standing Orders Committee are addressing the issue. How long it will take, I do not know, but they are certainly addressing the issue, and the member is quite right. I thank Dr Sharples for his contribution. Sufficient time is always allowed by the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd2b2d725190426c9fc2f348f058bfbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd2b2d725190426c9fc2f348f058bfbf\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting this bill. We want to remove any corruption that takes place in terms of people who make a business of assisting migrants. We want proper procedures and accountability, and the registration of immigration advisers will assist in this. But I think we have to look at the whole question of immigration advisers as, in part, a criticism of our immigration system. We need immigration advisers for two reasons. One reason that we cannot get around completely is that a lot of people want to come to New Zealand and many of them will go to any lengths to try to get the best advice to get entrance into this country for themselves and their families. We cannot really stop that. In fact, it is a tribute to New Zealand that so many people want to come here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the main reasons people go to advisers is that the Immigration Service itself is not very transparent in its processes, in terms of what people need to qualify to get into the country, etc. If the service were much more efficient in that respect, then, as in other Government departments, the advice would be given properly and adequately by the department itself without people having to get\u2014and often paying large sums of money for\u2014independent advice. The very flowering of immigration advisers I think means that we need to have another look at the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think that problems with immigration are reflected in the migration figures for the current year, in that although the Government had quite a high target, the latest figures I have seen show net long-term migration to New Zealand over the last 12 months to be a little under 6,000. That shows that a lot of people who cannot find ways to come to New Zealand are often people we could benefit from having here. Of course, there are problems that have been identified previously, such as the English language test being set at too high a level in the past, which excludes a lot of people and tends to be more biased against Asian migrants in particular. Then there is the whole problem that has developed since about May or June last year, when Winston Peters started talking about the number of Iraqis coming in, whom he thought should not be coming in. He even got a lot of his information to the House wrong, and people were taking cases against him to try to get him to apologise, etc. All of that hoo-ha produced a defensive reaction on the part of the Government in the setting up of the immigration profiling unit in the New Zealand Immigration Service. The unit employed a huge number of people to work very long hours, trawling back through all the visitor visas, immigration approvals\u2014you name it\u2014and creating a barrier to people, particularly those from the 54 high-risk countries. These are mainly the poorer countries whose people find it very difficult to get into New Zealand at all and, no doubt, have more recourse to immigration advisers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI have asked the Minister\u2014and have put down various written questions\u2014to name those 54 high-risk countries. I was told that because of diplomatic and security reasons I as a member of Parliament could not be told any of the names of those 54 high-risk countries. I asked a second question about the criteria used to determine a high-risk country. The answer came back saying that was a diplomatic and security matter and that I could not even be given the criteria. So that is a problem. Even people applying to come to New Zealand from those 54 countries do not know\u2014although some of them can probably guess\u2014that their country is defined as high risk and therefore their chances of getting in are small and they are wasting a lot of money going to immigration advisers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere are also a whole lot of problems relating to qualifications, particularly for people who do not happen to come from Anglo-Saxon countries such as America, England, Canada, and Australia. Their qualifications are often not looked at seriously enough. That is still a problem. There is also a whole set of problems around the question of family unification that people go to advisers about. We MPs all know that in the end they often come to us about these questions. In terms of family unification, there are big problems for people who have an older parent or grandparent whom they want to get here. Mainly, they are deemed to be a burden on the health system, because, being older, they might just happen to have a disease. Even younger people who have a disability have a big problem coming in under the family unification criteria, and that creates a greater demand on immigration advisers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAs we have seen over the last couple of years, even when the migrants get here and become citizens they have problems. They have problems with immigration and customs at the border. I was in Hamilton on Monday night and a whole lot of people came up from the Muslim community there with all sorts of cases. As members know, the head of the New Zealand Federation of Islamic Associations, Javed Kahn, has complained in the media\u2014and I issued a statement supporting him\u2014that people who had been New Zealand citizens for many years are held up by the immigration and customs services when they return to this country. They are searched, interrogated, and held for 2 or 3 hours. I was talking to Somali people who have been New Zealand citizens for some time. They are sick of it. Just going to Australia for a few days means that when they return they get held up for 2 or 3 hours. These people are citizens of this country. The Immigration Service has no reason to waste its time on citizens. If people have committed a criminal offence, then they should be checked by the police of this country, not by some mickey mouse immigration and customs interrogation system at the border that is not designed to cope with that level of criminality. Our immigration and custom services should be concentrating on visitors to New Zealand, not on people who are already New Zealand citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThen there is a whole array of cases that involve MPs and immigration advisers\u2014not so much at the level of migration but in getting visas to this country. It is very hard for anyone from those 54 unnamed, high-risk countries to get visitor visas to this country. An example I had recently was of a family whose members were all New Zealand citizens, and had been for some time. They were of Iraqi origin. In 1998 their mother visited them from Baghdad. She had no trouble getting a visitor visa. Now, post all this immigration profiling and the reaction to Winston Peters\u2019 activities, the family cannot get a visitor visa for their mother to visit them in New Zealand to see her grandchildren, etc. There is no question that she would not go back. She did in 1998. The reasons the Immigration Service gives are not specific to her. The reason for not letting those New Zealand citizens have their mother come to visit them is that allegedly she has no incentive to return to Iraq because there is a war on. That reason applies to every single Iraqi who applies for a visitor visa to visit his or her relations in this country, who are probably New Zealand citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESo a whole array of problems is producing a market for immigration advisers. This bill, of course, will help straighten things out in terms of their advice and it will make them much more accountable. But the problem is a big one. As Pita Sharples said, we have to look in a much more open and compassionate way at migrants coming into our country. We should not apply cultural discrimination, and we should accept the different religions and languages that are involved. At the moment there is prejudice, particularly against people from Middle Eastern countries who might be of Islamic origin. Once we start targeting those people, as the Immigration Service is today, we create in the population racist feelings, such as we have seen on the beaches of Australia this last week. The responsibility for what is happening in Australia is largely to do with that country\u2019s so-called anti-terrorist campaign targeted at Muslims\u2014with the way the Immigration Service is getting involved, in handling people at the Australian borders. That is creating a feeling amongst the frustrated white youth in Australia that the Islamic people are the cause of their problems. We will undermine the fabric of our society if we do not deal correctly with immigration problems in our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EDo we want to go down that Australian track? To an extent we have been down it, in terms of young people daubing the mosques. But at least the response of the Islamic community and the rest of the New Zealand was that they got together. They responded very well, building greater unity in New Zealand. So we can avoid the Australian tragedy. We should take the discussion around immigration as a way to take a step back and look at ourselves to see whether we are getting too caught up in the American so-called war on terror and the flow-on it has in terms of prejudice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d734a0a9e3642cca4e2f7c9ef498cbe\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022674bf5b48f114b1d8333cb240b93227f\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u2014Publishing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022eee4afb62c7f4bc4993f2bbc7bb205c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eee4afb62c7f4bc4993f2bbc7bb205c2\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to raise an important matter with you relating to the fact that the Clerk\u2019s Office has not published questions for today in the normal fashion. Members will be aware that there was some contention as to whether the House would be in a position to begin a new sitting day at 2 o\u2019clock, which would therefore necessitate question time. The practice in the past has always been for questions to be received in the normal manner so that Ministers can prepare their answers and members their supplementary questions and, therefore, be prepared for question time, whether or not the House completes urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E Today the questions have not been published. I am told that they have not been forwarded to Ministers\u2019 offices, and the Clerk\u2019s Office advises that it has been instructed\u2014presumably by your office, Mr Speaker\u2014not to distribute the questions. It seems to me that that raises a rather interesting question of whether the Clerk\u2019s Office has had some sort of private communication from the Leader of the House about the Government\u2019s intentions with regard to the urgency motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI put it to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Office of the Speaker and the Clerk\u2019s Office should stand above and beyond the political manipulations of the Leader of the House and well away from any shabby deals that the Government has done with the minor parties that prop it up in the Chamber. It seems to me that it would have been proper for the Clerk\u2019s Office to distribute questions in the normal way and to act in every way in the normal fashion, and to not take any political advice from the Leader of the House or anyone else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIt is pretty obvious to members now that the Leader of the House has had to abandon his wish to have question time today, and that he will have to abandon the notice of motion I know he wanted the House to address. That is quite a substantial victory for Opposition parties. But I ask for your assurance that, in future, we will not have political judgments being passed through to the Clerk\u2019s Office or the Speaker\u2019s Office and that the machinery of this House, particularly as it relates to questions and the urgency motion, will operate above and beyond those sorts of political considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b22a0f937b5f4997a34186b5929cd83e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b22a0f937b5f4997a34186b5929cd83e\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Whip\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to comment on the remarks made about so-called shonky deals done with the support partners of Labour, and also on the reference to the machinery of the House. The House does have a machinery for dealing with this question. It is called the Business Committee. This matter was raised at the Business Committee\u2014not this week\u2019s Business Committee, but last week\u2019s Business Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EOpposition parties have had about 8 days\u2019 notice to raise the matter of whether question time should occur and when it should occur. They have made no representations in that regard, at all, so I think it is actually quite perverse of them to get up and raise a point of order on the matter today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dfcaf263547423baa22ee6e67d42cfb\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Copeland for making that comment. I note the point raised by Mr McCully. I have no knowledge of the issues you raise, at all; nor should I have any knowledge, because I proceed exactly as I should. As far as I am concerned, I have an urgency motion that does not allow for or show any question time, at all. Until that is changed through other mechanisms, I shall proceed along those lines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EI am informed that questions are not distributed beforehand. They have been on one occasion, by mistake, and I guess that is what is happening. But to get more information I suggest that, perhaps, the question should be raised with Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3c7c0232e804913be8d726d6f9a686e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3c7c0232e804913be8d726d6f9a686e\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I do not want to put you in a difficult position either, but I ask that you protect the rights of the Opposition parties in this matter and, after making due inquiry, give us an assurance that the machinery of the Clerk\u2019s Office and the House will operate free from any sort of political interference by the Leader of the House\u2014ably assisted, no doubt, by Mr Copeland and his cronies. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a95b0d67f4d444b8ffc0ea37314ea9f\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any rebuttal of that remark. I thank Mr McCully; we shall proceed as though that point was never raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce75462a696f4468b6904918335c5f80\u0022\u003EImmigration Advisers Licensing Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1c0e4c251a94bba8b8fa49875a1aea5\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000292\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b50deb96b14944ab8c27a35a951bdd32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b50deb96b14944ab8c27a35a951bdd32\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to signal that United Future will be supporting the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill. Indeed, we believe that this licensing regime for immigration advisers is well and truly overdue. I was interested to hear earlier the speech from the Hon Lianne Dalziel, which informed me, as I was not here at the time, that this matter was raised in 1999. For goodness\u2019 sake, we are now in 2005! I would like to point out to Lianne Dalziel and members of the Government that they have actually had 6 years since 1999, which proves the point that this bill is well and truly overdue. So I hope it will be passed by this House rapidly and that we can get on and put a licensing regime in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIt is a very, very important area of our immigration law. It is time that New Zealand cleaned up its act when it comes to immigration. It is a well-known fact that the current Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Hon Winston Peters, has actually built a political career, in part, by opposing immigration. But the fact is that immigration does, and will continue to, play a vital role in the future of this nation. That is the reality. Incidentally, talking about reality, I would have found Keith Locke\u2019s protestations about people, say, of Middle Eastern origin who are New Zealand citizens being held up at the border a lot more convincing if I were unaware of the fact that the perpetrators of the bombs on the London Underground and buses in July were not just people with permanent residency but also people who were actually born in Britain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESo it is important, I think, when we talk about these matters, that we talk about the real world, not some idealised version of the world. I would love it if this globe was peaceful and there was love and harmony between all members of all races. That is one thing that many of us would like to work towards. But in the meantime we have to look at the realities and be sensible. We need to remember that one of the functions of Government\u2014its principle function, some would argue\u2014is to protect its own citizens. That includes protecting them against people, whether or not they are New Zealand citizens, who might want to commit acts of terrorism against their fellow citizens. We have to get the cowboys, the fakes, the frauds, the thieves, the incompetent, the irresponsible, and the greedy out of the immigration loop in terms of people wishing to come to this nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESuch people are actually scumbags. They prey on the innocent, they prey on the needy, and very often they prey on people\u2014who are desperate for good and sound reasons such as persecution at home on religious grounds and who are fleeing areas of the world that are affected by warfare, poverty, or discrimination\u2014who chose to make this country their new home. In those situations it is all too easy to set oneself up as an immigration adviser, to claim that one has all kinds of connections\u2014even, in a recent scam, with the Prime Minister herself\u2014and to say such things as: \u201CYou come to me. I\u2019ve got some say with the Prime Minister and I\u2019ll get you into New Zealand.\u201D We really need to ensure that the system eliminates all those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would also like to say that this is actually a very, very important matter in terms of policy formation. As a result of scams run in this country the Government recently changed the business migration scheme. There were scams of people bringing $1 million into New Zealand, living here for just a few days, and then going back offshore; the same $1 million brought in a whole stream of immigrants through totally illegal and shonky but very cleverly thought-out immigration schemes. So the Government reacted to that by saying: \u201CIf you\u2019re a business migrant, now we want you to bring in a million bucks, and we\u2019ll have it lodged with the Government, and only with the Government, and furthermore we\u2019ll pay you an interest rate that is insignificant.\u201D Since that new regulation came in there have been two\u2014yes, that is right, two\u2014business migrants who have come into New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe whole Government setup we now have, in terms of the way that money is utilised, is, of course, the exact opposite of any sense of business acumen or entrepreneurship, because anybody who is able to have made $1 million in the first place, and therefore is able to bring it into our country, obviously has business acumen and those people see the whole scheme as patently ridiculous. I want to tell the Government today that there is an opportunity for it, once these immigration advisers are licensed properly, to revisit that policy in the interests of bringing more business and entrepreneurial people into this country. God knows, we need them! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would also like to draw the House\u2019s attention, as we are debating this subject today, to the write-up in today\u2019s Dominion Post about the East Asia Summit, which our Prime Minister Helen Clark has been attending. Some members may know that this summit now embraces all of the nations of Asia, including China, India, and Japan, and it also embraces Australia and New Zealand. The Prime Minister of Malaysia said that he did not know how the Australians\u2014or New Zealanders, for that matter\u2014will regard themselves as east Asians. I thought that actually displayed an understandable ignorance of the history of immigration into this country. As Dr Pita Sharples has pointed out, the founding people of this nation were Polynesians, whom we call M\u0101ori. What sort of people are they? The answer is that they are east Asian people; that is actually their point of origin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212f93bc5176240f5a9d9a9a79be2239e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4f672875f9b411a8cd07b28e36ca448\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly right. The Polynesians came originally from east Asia. Dr Pita Sharples and I have just been talking about this and he thoroughly agrees with the point I am making. From that point of view, we are therefore, genuinely an east Asian country to the extent that we were populated by east Asian people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bae7a0a8414b4ef6a2c14c60ffb20b3c\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to correct one comment. I definitely stated that we are the same people; we derive from the same language family but it does not mean we are from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238a8a463ac674a4fb78b9ddd0e2b38d3\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is for another time, thank you. It is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d86fd1edb746c1ace4ba05e66df619\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. I meant that the original inhabitants of New Zealand, the original human inhabitants, were of east Asian origin in the same way that I am of European origin. That is the point I was making and I think it is factual and non-controversial in reality. The Indian diplomat at the summit also had the same problem. He also questioned how it was that New Zealand could be regarded as part of east Asia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI think it is also very important to focus on the fact that Asia is therefore not only a very important part of New Zealand\u2019s past but is also a very important part of our history. I was privileged yesterday to be the guest of honour at the Victoria University graduation ceremony for commerce graduands. To be perfectly honest, as I have not been to one of those ceremonies since I graduated myself about 40 years ago, I was absolutely staggered because I would estimate conservatively that 70 percent of the graduates in commerce from Victoria University yesterday were Asian. I think that is a good illustration of the role that immigrants to this country are playing and what a fantastic contribution these young men and women are going to make to the future of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe licensing regime for immigration advisers has many, many ramifications for this country\u2014all of them extremely positive. I would venture to express the hope in this Parliament that once the licensing regime is in place, the Minister of Foreign Affairs might himself, in that new role\u2014that very important role of representing our country\u2014open his mind and heart a little bit to the great potential that new immigrants can make to the fabric of life in this country, and that we can rid ourselves of xenophobia and put out the welcome mat, especially for overseas students. I believe that the best immigrants we could possibly have coming to New Zealand would be students who have come here from different lands, who study at our universities, who graduate from our universities, and then decide they want to become citizens of our country. That is the brain drain in reversal and we do need it, because, as we are all very aware, we also have the other side of the equation, which is the migration of some of our best and brightest from our shores to other parts of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWith those remarks, I signal our strong support for this overdue bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002287e58f93008749088424854cbbc5ebc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287e58f93008749088424854cbbc5ebc2\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT will support the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill going to a select committee but we note, in the same way the National Party did, that this bill still needs a lot of work. The purpose of the bill, of course, is very laudable. According to the explanatory note: \u201CThis bill creates a licensing regime for individuals who provide immigration advice. The purpose \u2026 is to promote and protect the interests of consumers receiving immigration advice, and to enhance the reputation of New Zealand as a migrant destination.\u201D That is as it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis bill, though, could be termed the \u201CTuariki Delamere Protection Bill\u201D. It is a bill to protect people from those who take advantage of immigrants who perhaps do not have a finely tuned grasp of English and are in a very vulnerable position. Those people deserve protection. The Serious Fraud Office said that Mr Delamere received $1 million from his Chinese partner in exchange for part of his company. It went on to say that he recycled the money to trick the Department of Internal Affairs, so that seven immigrants\u2014supposedly millionaires, but who were in fact subject to misinformation\u2014gained entry to New Zealand. Those people then found that their residency had been revoked, and they have since left the country. On looking for information regarding this bill and why this country might need it, I found that the New Zealand Herald was very enlightening. I quote from a piece from 16 November: \u201CThe SFO alleges Delamere falsely told the Immigration Service that seven clients had each invested $1 million of their own money in New Zealand\u2014qualifying them for residency under the business migration category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E Instead, the SFO alleges his Chinese business partner contributed the $1 million, which was used seven times for seven different applications in a \u2018money-go-round\u2019.\u201D As Lianne Dalziel pointed out, that is absolutely unforgivable and scurrilous behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESo what would Mr Winston Peters have said, before his reformation as Minister of Foreign Affairs? Let us forget the Iraqi Cabinet Minister; if we listen to what the Serious Fraud Office said, Mr Peter\u2019s former colleague played the system for a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b68a6fe7d96a4734b9a2193cb41b41a1\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You are making reference to a matter that is before the courts and has not been resolved at this time. You are free to talk about others and free to talk about Mr Peters, but not about Mr Delamere in the way that you have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4c7ed4a5d784c4e8bfdec536e080737\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The information I have been giving is mainly quotations and information that has already been in the public arena. I was very careful when I was researching this to take particular note of that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a998b71fefc417d94aa16a3d700a997\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Standing Orders are quite clear. You stepped over the mark just slightly with your comments, and the rules prohibit that sort of thing. I ask you to use more general terms, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa1a2727b714f4b87455d32e04f673b\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. There are many cases where people who have applied to come to this country have been taken advantage of in a very serious way, and this bill regrettably is necessary to control the behaviour of those few. I think that most people who have consultancy businesses to give advice to those wanting to come to New Zealand do a very good job, and I suggest that many members of the House, who are frequently asked about immigration cases, and for their own advice, might well consult those people. So it is regrettable that the bill is needed, but ACT will support it because it is needed to control that sort of behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EImmigrants add a huge amount to this country. Those who have to apply to come to New Zealand are mainly hard-working, taxpaying, law-abiding, good, and valuable citizens. They provide enrichment to the country that we would otherwise not see. Those who apply to come here are generally under-represented in the use of hospital beds and in our prisons. They are very good, well-behaved, law-abiding citizens of our country. Those who apply to come here are frequently the doctors and nurses who keep our hospitals going. New Zealand is a better country thanks to the immigration we have, so we feel a deal of disappointment that legislation like this is necessary to provide for immigrants\u2019 protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E In ACT we do not like bureaucracy. We certainly do not like unnecessary bureaucracy that adds costs to things we feel are unnecessary. We do not like excessive regulation, and we certainly do not like to interfere with professionals who are doing their jobs, but we do support the bill. We support certainty for people who want to immigrate to New Zealand. We support people who want to come here in order to contribute to our society and enjoy our social and economic freedoms, and we want those people to be sure they are dealing with bona fide consultants. That is very important; they should have that reassurance. However, ACT has concerns about many parts of the bill, particularly in respect of the costs it might impose on those who are already giving good, valuable advice to people applying to come to New Zealand. We also have concerns about other parts of the bill\u2014particularly about the fact that MPs are not subject to it\u2014but we will support the bill going to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00229070e2cb539d4918a98787a8c1428e9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229070e2cb539d4918a98787a8c1428e9c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E Tragically for the House, I am obliged by the whips to be brief, but I want to begin by making a quick comment to Mr McCully, who earlier raised a point of order about question time. I remind him that if the National Party had not filibustered the Veterinarians Bill for 9 hours, and then ultimately voted for it, we probably could have had question time. We always know when Murray McCully is not particularly serious, because the Brylcream in his hair starts to dry out and get ratty on the edges. And he sat down with a smile on his face, so no one took him seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI turn to the matter in hand, the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill. First of all, I congratulate the new Minister of Immigration, Mr Cunliffe, on bringing the bill to the House in his name. I also congratulate the former Minister of Immigration, Lianne Dalziel, whose idea started the process. But there is another Minister whom I want to mention. I hear he is a humble man, who does not like to receive public acclaim for his work, but I am assured that much of his grunt work, his hard work\u2014if you like, the intelligence and rigour; the donkey work\u2014in bringing this all together into legislation, which was before the House prior to the last election, had a lot to do with his own efforts. I know that that member will not like me speaking like this about him, and I have said that I will not mention his name, because I do not think it is appropriate; nor is it fit and proper. But I do think it is worthy of the House to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceccf7b2dcfd4541941d0c66854e9896\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: A little thankyou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ea8de9e492461498e2a32643b8cd8f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, to say thank you for doing a lot of the work in bringing it all together. Of course, we are a collegial party\u2014there are no individuals; it is all teamwork. We have Lianne Dalziel and David Cunliffe, but there is one other person who will remain nameless, and I think we should do that person the honour of making sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9b691d30294816bc77e2305a20be52\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Name him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e01035e8df4e388fa333c6a765efd9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, it would not be right. He would be embarrassed if that were the case, because he is a team player and does not like to have individual glory bestowed upon him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed1b9262f59944149c7ecf75041e83dd\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: He was the best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2139eadef94a5e978c8ae248dab1cb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I would not go that far. Basically, the objective of the bill, which has been well outlined by both Mr Cunliffe and Lianne Dalziel, is to drive the crooks, the thieves, and the liars out of the immigration adviser industry\u2014that is basically its job. So the good, law-abiding advisers, many of whom I have met over the last 6 years, are able to get on and do their job, out from under the cloud of constant allegations about behaviour that continually hangs over this industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe Transport and Industrial Relations Committee might like to have a look at two key issues. The first issue, raised by Lianne Dalziel, is that there could well be a stand-down period for those who have worked for the New Zealand Immigration Service and who then want to become an adviser. I think there should be a stand-down period so that those people cannot, therefore, claim that they have inside knowledge and information, which I am sure there would be a temptation to do. The other issue is about international advisers. The compromise, in the end, was that it would be 3 years before the legislation applied to them. My view is that it could well be a bit sooner, and I would be interested if the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee could have a look at that. But this is a fabulous bill that has been brought to the House through the efforts of a number of fabulous Ministers in a Labour-led Government, who are doing fabulous work on behalf of New Zealand. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00220249e549fba04ebfb1849c64c21e4aac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220249e549fba04ebfb1849c64c21e4aac\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill. I declare, from the outset, that in my former life as a lawyer I dabbled in some immigration advice, and I am pleased to see that lawyers are exempt under this proposed legislation from licensing as immigration advisers. Having said that, although I accept that the bill is well-intended, it is flawed and it is ineffectual. It does attempt to address some very real concerns, but why it does not address other concerns is a mystery to me, and the method of addressing some of those concerns is also mystifying. It is vital that our immigrants and our potential immigrants receive good, competent advice and service. Often those advisers are the first port of call\u2014the shop window of New Zealand\u2014and those first impressions indeed matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EAs a lawyer I have had the unenviable task of trying to pick up the pieces of very disappointed and disillusioned people who have entered New Zealand. They are often given false hope of what to expect in New Zealand. They are often encouraged to pack up their bags, sell their homes, and travel to New Zealand in the false hope that they too will be privileged enough to call New Zealand their home. People come to New Zealand relying on advice from so-called immigration advisers, and thinking that they can obtain a work permit, and they cannot. They come to New Zealand thinking they can obtain permanent residency, and they cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe consequences of poor and incompetent advice, resulting in declined applications, and, sometimes, in deportation, are severe. Does the bill deal effectively with that? I would have to admit that it does not. The bill provides for penalties payable by the adviser for failing to meet the acceptable standards of advice. But what about the poor visitors to our country whose hopes and aspirations have been totally dashed, and whose impression, then, of New Zealand and New Zealanders is, to say the least, atrocious? Those poor victims are deported, and they run the risk of not being able to return to New Zealand, at least not for some time, and then with difficulty. They run the risk of their travel to other countries being hampered because of an immigration record that is marred as a consequence of bad, negligent, and incompetent advice. To fine the adviser does nothing whatsoever to help their cause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe bill, as we have come to expect, is seriously flawed\u2014not only in relation to the penalties. Although the bill provides that no person may provide immigration advice unless that person is licensed or exempt, such as lawyers, it then goes on to provide the definition of immigration advice. The bill says that immigration advice does not include providing information that is publicly available, or that is prepared or made available by the department. But the entire operations manual is available to the public, and the entire legislation is available to the public. The appeal and the other case decisions are available to the public. So what exactly is not available to the public? What exactly is the immigration advice that one must be licensed or exempt to provide? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWhat is more, the bill attempts to include offshore advisers, but then it excludes them if they give advice in relation to student permits and student visas. I cannot fathom why that might be. Students are not immune from bad or incompetent advice, and I can envisage offshore immigration advisers giving a lot of advice that is disguised as advice on student permits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMany of the problems that the bill seeks to address arise from offshore advisers, but those offshore advisers are not subject to our New Zealand jurisdiction. I do not believe that sufficient thought has been given to the fact that the enforceability of this regime on offshore advisers is well-nigh impossible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMy other concern relates to the good old chestnut of costs and compliance. Even the explanatory note admits: \u201CThe proposal is expected to result in increased costs to immigration advisers through licence application fees, and compliance costs associated with applying for and renewing licences, meeting minimum competency standards, and complying with a code of conduct (details yet to be decided). Application fees will be prescribed in regulations \u2026 An annual licence fee is expected to be in the order of $1,000 - $2,000.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe note continues: \u201CCompliance costs for businesses will also arise from the licensing application process, competency standards, and code of conduct that are to be developed by the regulator.\u201D It concerns me that we are adding yet another layer of bureaucracy\u2014we are catching a baby about to grow into a monster. An Immigration Advisers Authority will be set up. A Registrar of Immigration Advisers will be appointed under the State Sector Act; what wage will he or she be on? Other such persons will be appointed as the chief executive decides. We will have a complaints body and a complaints procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis is a monster in the making. Although the bill is certainly well intentioned, it fails to address some of our more serious immigration issues. It addresses issues that do not need addressing, and I feel that it will do little to raise the standard of immigration advice in our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EAlthough National members support the bill going to the select committee for scrutiny, that scrutiny does indeed need to be very robust for this bill to be effective at all. We need to address the issue of offshore advisers giving shonky advice, giving false hopes to our immigrants, and risking our national integrity. That is vital. There is definitely a mischief out there that needs to be remedied, but this bill does not seem to be able to remedy it. I am certainly hopeful that the select committee will see the serious flaws in this bill and try to make it into effective legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt adds so much bureaucracy that we really wonder whether it is all worthwhile. We only have to look at some of the functions to realise what a bloated bureaucracy this authority will develop into. The authority will establish and maintain a register of licensed immigration advisers, then will have to administer the licensing regime, then will have to develop and maintain competency standards, then will have to develop and maintain a code of conduct for immigration advisers, then will have to facilitate the education and professional development of immigration advisers, then will have to facilitate public awareness of matters relating to the provision of immigration advice, and then will have to investigate and take enforcement action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill is draconian. A mischief is out there. National members will support the bill going to a select committee, but we implore the select committee to scrutinise it very robustly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226cd5dd5b5c19458f86c93e3c5a447595\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb972f60781645ad9d3d5d9f3be9c8ef\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u2014Publishing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4d5f4f3b4dd40b1b6d1c87781fb9908\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4d5f4f3b4dd40b1b6d1c87781fb9908\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order has been raised by the Hon Murray McCully relating to questions not being distributed. I wish to rule on that matter. Questions for a future sitting are not distributed, nor is an Order Paper circulated, until the previous sitting ends. If this sitting ends before 1 p.m., any questions lodged this morning will be distributed; otherwise they will not. That is the normal procedure. It is not the subject of any deal or political interference at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adafaf6abce443058fd66f75673151cd\u0022\u003EElection Petition\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b004288fc9e4d8eb63a24b2b89f1d09\u0022\u003ETauranga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00221ede6810740140149ed2c97e276ef42b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ede6810740140149ed2c97e276ef42b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to present the report of the High Court on the Tauranga electoral petition. Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is no objection. I hereby present the determination of the High Court in the matter of an electoral petition relating to the Tauranga electoral district. Paragraph 150 of the determination reads as follows: \u201CWe certify under s 243 of the Electoral Act 1993 that, at the trial of this petition, the Court determined that the election of the respondent Robert Moncrieff Clarkson as the member of Parliament for the Tauranga electorate was not void.\u201D Copies of the determination are available from the Bills Office and will be published on the High Court website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022 data-id=\u0022228e856e3cd047029fae114361690db8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022228e856e3cd047029fae114361690db8\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to congratulate Mr Clarkson on having his election to this House confirmed. We were always confident that he did, in fact, comply with the rules that apply to the election of members of Parliament. I think his confirmation is something that we in this House can certainly applaud, and we wish him all the very best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5ef9487c2d8464ebb55c0504879c272\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce70db14668944c4ac0eee02147e6e68\u0022\u003EImmigration Advisers Licensing Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aed45417067043068cb4e7f10113a868\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000350\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000351\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000352\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c2348031cb647c485a91fcb869e7190\u0022\u003EStandards and Conformance Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e228f8bcbefd4e4d9f1c313addbc3d98\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6a4c5c705084f43b6fea0a882041bf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6a4c5c705084f43b6fea0a882041bf2\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Standards and Conformance Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Commerce Committee for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe standards and conformance infrastructure supports the economy in many ways. Consumers both here and overseas increasingly require products or services that comply with standards or other specific requirements in terms of quality or performance. Obtaining independent confirmation that that has occurred has become increasingly important for business success and consumer confidence. The Government\u2019s interest is in ensuring that risks to public health, safety, and the environment are minimised while facilitating innovation, economic development, and international trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe technical amendments contained in this bill will amend two Acts: the Standards Act 1988 and the Testing Laboratory Registration Act 1972. The amendments are designed to ensure that international and domestic confidence in New Zealand\u2019s standards and conformance infrastructure is maintained. Internationally, norms and practices in the standards and conformance area have evolved, and it is important that the Standards Act and the Testing Laboratory Registration Act keep up to date with those developments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s amendments will also improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the functions of both the Standards Council and the Testing Laboratory Registration Council. Looking first at amendments to the Standards Act 1988, in New Zealand the Standards Council, through its operational arm, Standards New Zealand, develops and publishes standards that are agreed specifications for products, processes, performances, or services. Internationally, standards bodies are now producing a wider range of products. The amendments to the Standards Act will clarify and expand the scope of the council\u2019s functions to include the preparation or recommendation of codes of practice, handbooks, specifications, and other material produced by international standards bodies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E The bill will also extend the development of standards in a manner consistent with New Zealand\u2019s international trade obligations to include minimising environmental risks and promoting social responsibility. A further amendment is also intended to improve the nomination processes for appointments to the Standards Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ETurning now to the proposed amendments to the Testing Laboratory Registration Act 1972, the Act provides for the establishment of the Testing Laboratory Registration Council. The council has, in turn, established an operational arm\u2014International Accreditation New Zealand. This organisation assesses the ability of testing and calibration laboratories and inspection bodies to carry out conformity assessments on whether a particular product, process, performance, or service complies with particular standards and technical regulations. On the other hand, an organisation called the Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand was established by treaty between the Australian and New Zealand Governments in 1991. It provides for the accreditation of certification bodies\u2014for example, quality and environmental management systems, and inspection bodies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EA key purpose of the bill\u2019s amendments to the Testing Laboratory Registration Act 1972 is to delineate the roles of International Accreditation New Zealand and the Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand in the market for accreditation services. As such, the amendments to the Testing Laboratory Registration Act 1972 will clarify that the Testing Laboratory Registration Council does not have the ability to accredit certification bodies, and confirm that the council does not have the ability to accredit inspection bodies. The amendments will also make the provision of certification services\u2014currently undertaken by Telarc Ltd, an operational arm of the council\u2014discretionary rather than mandatory. It is important to remember that when Telarc Ltd began supplying this service, there were no private sector providers. Now, however, a number of private sector providers have been established. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill will help do much to improve the clarity, efficiency, and effectiveness of the functions of the Standards Council and Testing Laboratory Registration Council, and to align them with international norms and practices. This is ahead of the major review of standards and conformance that will occur next year. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022f805b849a4db48448c18897ef8a8113f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f805b849a4db48448c18897ef8a8113f\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday this Minister, like other Labour commerce Ministers before her, once again made warm, fuzzy noises about cutting compliance costs, especially for small businesses. Apparently, one of the fantastic responses that cuts compliance costs is to ask the Ministry for Economic Development to look into ways to measure and publish the cost of compliance. Compliance costs are indeed being identified, along with high tax and the employment laws, as one of the major obstacles facing small businesses. But can we have confidence in the Ministry for Economic Development championing the ways that Government departments can measure and report compliance costs? Let us look at this legislation, because I am sure it was put together by the Ministry for Economic Development, and, as required by all legislation, it has to contain a compliance cost statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe see the statement identifies that this legislation will incur compliance costs because two accreditation bodies will be reduced to one, and the organisations that were previously registered by International Accreditation New Zealand will now have to be registered with Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand. According to the compliance cost statement, the size of the compliance costs that will be incurred by the bodies that shift their accreditation from one organisation to the other will depend on how much confidence the new accreditation organisation, Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand, has in the previous accreditations that were undertaken by International Accreditation New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe compliance cost statement also points out that there may be some confusion in the market because of these changes. Therefore, it states it is not possible to quantify the size of the compliance costs. But the Ministry for Economic Development claims that it will take on the task of writing to the organisations that will be affected by the changes, and that, somehow, that will clarify the issue and remove any confusion. Well, the Ministry for Economic Development obviously has huge confidence in its letter-writing ability. I have never known any business owner to suddenly say he or she is no longer confused, because a letter from the Ministry for Economic Development has outlined all the changes. That is why one can have no confidence in the commitment in this Minister, and the minority Labour Government she belongs to, to tackle creeping compliance costs. In fact, business owners continue to complain nowadays that they can feel the tentacles of this Labour Government interfering in various parts of their businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ENational members will support this legislation going on to the select committee process. We look forward to meeting the advisers, especially those from the Ministry for Economic Development, and to testing their ability to demonstrate that they can indeed champion the measurement of compliance costs, given they have actually, at this stage, put an abysmal effort into furnishing the business compliance cost statement contained in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELet me turn to the provision in this bill that concerns the transfer of the accreditation function from International Accreditation New Zealand to Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand. On the face of it, to reduce two accreditation operations into one seems to be a sensible move. However, we have learnt from the explanatory note of the bill that various organisations have expressed concerns because the new body, Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand, actually charges higher fees than International Accreditation New Zealand. Whatever happened to economies of scale? We are now telling the bodies that have to get accreditation that they will have to pay higher fees, for no obvious benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EApparently, the consultation process threw up another observation: there are concerns about the lack of client services in Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand, compared with International Accreditation New Zealand. That is a classic case of businesses being asked to pay more and get less. That sounds to me like a very Labour business persona\u2014one pays more and gets less. I look forward to quizzing the officials and advisers, during the select committee\u2019s deliberation on the bill, as to why businesses are to pay higher fees for fewer services. Apparently the officials actually took up those concerns, and they reckon they have solved the problem by including a transitional provision in the bill. The transitional provision includes the measure that the advisers will write to Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand, asking it to review its fees and also to take the concerns expressed by businesses into consideration. Well, I do not think that is good enough. I think, basically, the advisors have to ask Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand for a fee scale, and to justify why its fees are higher than those of International Accreditation New Zealand. Unless businesses can be convinced they are receiving more services, I cannot see why the Government should pass legislation to force businesses to pay more for fewer services. So that is another provision we will take up and seek answers on from the officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe functions of the Standards Council will also be affected by this legislation. According to section 10(1) of the Standards Act, the primary functions of the council were originally: \u201C\u2026 to develop standards and to promote, encourage, and facilitate the use of standards in New Zealand with the object of\u2014(a) Improving the quality of goods and services, having regard to economy in their production or supply; or (b) Promoting standardisation in industry, trade, or commerce; or (c) Encouraging and facilitating industrial development, trade, or commerce; or (d) Promoting public or occupational safety, health, or welfare.\u201D This bill seeks to expand those functions, by having to include the objectives, as outlined in clause 7(1), of \u201Cminimising environmental risks\u201D and \u201Cpromoting social responsibility\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAlarm bells should start to ring when sweeping statements like those are to be included. I want to know whether the Minister has in mind a ban on plastic shopping bags in supermarkets, in order to minimise environmental risk. When the Greens want such solutions to become policy, they at least are upfront about it, but the Labour Government always insists upon a quango to do the work it does not tell the public about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAnother provision I want to question concerns the definition of \u201Csocial responsibility\u201D. On what criteria is it based, and who will decide what constitutes social responsibility under this legislation? If that term is well-defined, why is it not included in the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993 or the Fair Trading Act 1986? After all, those Acts seem to be even more relevant to that requirement than this bill is. I wonder how many types of children\u2019s toys will pass the social responsibility test. We look forward to the officials coming up with guidelines and examples at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to raise\u2014the ultimate concern\u2014is that this bill includes another sweeping statement whereby the Minister can interfere. Apparently, the Minister can simply ask the Standards Council to take on any other function not in contradiction with its objective. But, as we know, the council\u2019s objective is very wide. So although we support this bill going to the select committee, we look forward to putting it under very robust scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022b14f80bee23640cd9f9489c4a9244eb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b14f80bee23640cd9f9489c4a9244eb0\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to this bill not requiring my full 10 minutes, because it is very straightforward. It is in fact much more straightforward than the previous speaker would understand. I wish to underscore a couple of points about the bill, perhaps for the benefit of the previous speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIt is very clear that the infrastructure of this country requires updating in order to comply with international standards, norms, and practices. The updating that this bill contains\u2014that is, amendments to the Standards Act 1988 and the Testing Laboratory Registration Act 1972\u2014is not of the dramatic order that the previous speaker suggested. If there are concerns, then surely they will be addressed at the select committee. But I would like to pick up on one of the previous speaker\u2019s points, and that is the point about compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere is a statement in the explanatory note of the bill that talks about business compliance costs, but the purpose\u2014and I am sure it will become blindingly obvious during the course of select committee submissions\u2014is that because we are going to be correcting an anomaly in the current provisions, we will be moving to reduce compliance costs. We cannot have two bodies responsible for accreditation. We need to have one. Hence the move towards the Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EAustralia moved to use that system some time ago, and we are doing the same as Australia. I think that the bogey of business compliance costs the member raised is mythical, and it will be up to submitters, I suppose, to demonstrate during the select committee process the extent of those costs. It has been said that it is not possible to quantify them, so I will be interested to hear just how detrimental these administrative changes will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EFundamentally, it is essential that our standards and the infrastructure that underpins health standards, specifications for products, testing of products, and safety and environment standards are protected by this updating of current legislation. I look forward to addressing that matter at the select committee deliberation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u00222394d9d98b1f4bb78bb1281ba478e75e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222394d9d98b1f4bb78bb1281ba478e75e\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Standards and Conformance Bill going to the select committee. With reference to the last speaker, I tell her that she should read page 9 of the explanatory note, headed \u201CStatement of consultation undertaken\u201D. The paragraph headed \u201CStakeholder consultation\u201D states: \u201CThey wanted to see effective transitional provisions included in the legislation and noted that the proposal will result in increased direct costs to them as a result of higher accreditation fees charged by JAS-ANZ.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EMaintaining confidence in our standards, and in the conformance of the same, with their associated infrastructure, is very, very important to New Zealand and to New Zealanders. We are known to be a people and a country that both holds to high standards and conforms to high standards. There is also a high expectancy that the organisations and infrastructures responsible for being guardians of those standards will fulfil the required task. Occasional breaches of standards\u2014some of which have had truly tragic results\u2014always serve to emphasise the expectancy the population has of our standards. So this is not a light matter; it is very, very serious. I would like to think that it is not just a New Zealand characteristic, but that it is fundamental to the way we live. I would like to think that certainly in a political perspective it is a National Party characteristic to have high standards\u2014and I think we saw a demonstration of those in the result we were told of this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIt is also a National Party characteristic to have high behavioural patterns that reflect those standards. National is the party that demonstrates those things in so many ways: in the conduct of the recent campaign, in the preparation and delivery of policy, in the training and inclusion of new candidates and, indeed, in the induction of new MPs into caucus and into the House. The standards and conformance of this side of the House, I think, can be considered to be exemplary. If only I could look across the Chamber and feel that the same occurs on the other side of the House. Those members seem not to have the same level of enthusiasm, energy, and dynamism that is on constant display on this side of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea4cfe6709647bebbd12cc094eb28b6\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: To continue, and I do not intend to use the full allocation of my remaining 7 minutes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a61038e35c664bb097f732cfebf20116\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I bet you will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222050c24f7b394e68a9444b52991dbf33\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I will try my best; all right, let us do that. As I was saying before lunch, the standards and conformance of people on this side of the House can only be described as exemplary. If only Opposition members could look across the House to see the same enthusiasm\u2014I am searching for enthusiasm, but I see none\u2014energy, and dynamism that is on constant display on this side of the House. The present Government, and the cross-bench MPs of its attendee parties, get to look across at a whole new batch of MPs\u2014budding future leaders of a high standard and conformance, a mature group of mid-career MPs, and a fine front bench in the full flower of activity\u2014compared with the view that we have of a sad group of members who have gone to seed, in desperate need of weeding, pruning, and replanting. Indeed, one has even heard those members described, somewhat uncharitably, as \u201Cthe complete dried arrangement\u201D. But that is not the case on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EBut as I said earlier, there are concerns with this bill, which is a serious matter. It is a very important bill. One of the concerns we have, which was mentioned by a previous speaker, is the addition of two new objectives, which the Standards Council develops and promotes. They are \u201Cminimising environmental risks\u201D and \u201Cpromoting social responsibility\u201D. I have serious concerns that the inclusion of these seemingly well-intentioned objectives will be of concern to many. These objectives, in the hands of the present Government, will almost inevitably impact on the activities of individuals and groups through regulation by stealth. Promoting social responsibility smacks of voluntary codes until such time as people do not comply, after which regulations will be imposed to introduce compulsion. The breadth of possibilities open to bureaucrats under such phrases as \u201Cminimising environmental risks\u201D and \u201Cpromoting social responsibility\u201D is very, very broad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons this bill is being introduced is to try to tighten some of the descriptions that are used in clause 12, which is critical of the breadth of intent. But it almost sounds like a pre-glasnost socialist creed, or perhaps something from the darker days of social revolutionary change in parts of Asia. I shudder to think what could be included under \u201Cminimising environmental risks\u201D and \u201Cpromoting social responsibility\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIn all, though, we support this bill going to a select committee, where its concerns and intentions can be thoroughly considered and thoroughly examined, and people can express their views on the bill in detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022283292effa674be4a5911e84fad55c0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022283292effa674be4a5911e84fad55c0f\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party supports this bill going to a select committee, but we do so with a word of caution. On the face of it, the bill seems entirely innocuous\u2014and in fact it probably is\u2014but we are also aware that it is being introduced under urgency in this House just before the Christmas break, and within an international context of tension over how Governments should assess and regulate risk in relation to industry and laboratory standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe aim of the bill is to ensure that the functions of the Standards Council and the Testing Laboratory Registration Council are aligned with international norms and practices. That seems to be an admirable intention, but what do we mean when we talk about international norms? Are we talking about the norms of Europe, when Europe is taking an increasingly cautionary approach towards chemical and biological risk, or are we talking about the norms of the United States of America, when according to some US commentators the US has become increasingly paralysed by a deliberate industry strategy of manufactured uncertainty? The concern is that the approach of the joint accreditation system of Australia and New Zealand, which this bill will lock into place, may well follow in the footsteps of the United States, given the very strong identification with US policy that currently dominates Australian politics. It will be of no surprise to members of this House that once again New Zealand\u2019s status in that body is not that of an equal and sovereign nation, but is more akin to a slightly favoured federal state. New Zealand would be bound by this legislation to implement the decisions that the Australians, by their superior voting power, choose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWhy should that concern us? Let us look at what is actually happening in the United States in relation to regulation. In December 2000 its Data Quality Act was enacted quietly as 27 lines in a giant Budget bill. The Act charged the Government to create procedures to ensure and maximise the quality, objectivity, utility, and integrity of scientific information and statistics disseminated by federal agencies. So dozens of US Government agencies now struggle to translate that language into thousands of pages of quality control guidelines, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThat would appear to be a laudable objective, but the problem is that the bill has opened the door to a massive industry onslaught on the regulations governing hazardous chemicals in the United States, and United States industry has adopted a self-proclaimed policy of using doubts and uncertainty to paralyse its regulatory agencies. By using shonky science and poorly implemented replication studies\u2014which, as a result of their poor implementation fail to support primary research\u2014and by using blanket denials, industry has managed to stave off regulation on the basis that the scientific evidence is contested. Members have only to turn their minds to the very deliberate strategy of the tobacco industry internationally, which has used shonky science and poor replication studies in order to confuse the link between smoking and ill health. Well, the Data Quality Act takes that kind of deception to a whole new level, because it allows US companies and industry to take court action in order to contest the quality of scientific information, thus hamstringing the ability of industries to regulate by locking them up in legal logjams. As a result, regulatory agencies have become paralysed in the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe relevance of that situation to this debate is the concern that we do not open the door to a similar manipulation of regulations in this country, inadvertently. If we turn to the bill and look at new section 10(2)(ca), inserted by clause 7(2), we see that the provision allows the Standards Council to recommend specifications other than standards. We have to question what the aim of that provision actually is, because, as the explanatory note tells us, those specifications will not be subject to the same \u201Cconsultation requirement in section 10(3)\u201D that attaches to standards\u2014because the requirements are not standards; they are specifications. I think that that should make members of this House sit up and take notice, and they should ask what the purpose is of doing that. Is it a way of avoiding that consultation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EPerhaps that is being all too suspicious and perhaps this is a totally innocuous, if not laudable, bill, so the Green Party will support the bill going to a select committee. But we are simply using this speech to alert members to the very significant issues that arise in the process of looking through the specific details of this bill, and to alert members on the committee the bill goes to that they should pay attention to the significant hidden barbs that might well be buried in the small bill before them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00225e9ce344f9ac4cd99d242a2ef6737232\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e9ce344f9ac4cd99d242a2ef6737232\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a brief call to say that New Zealand First has carefully looked at the bill, and we consider it to be worthy of our supporting it to a select committee. It is a good example of cooperation between ourselves and our Australian cousins. It certainly supports New Zealand\u2019s trade, health, safety, and environmental objectives. It creates economies of scale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI have only one reflection to make, which is that this legislation has the potential to be a springboard that helps advance the Pacific Plan in terms of extending some of its provisions to our Pacific neighbours, many of whom struggle to find the capacity within their own sovereign borders for this type of accreditation system. I just put that out as a teaser for people to think through, but, as I said, New Zealand First will support the bill going to a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcac263288ff45f68844721de70f2a72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcac263288ff45f68844721de70f2a72\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E It makes an interesting change for this House to be focusing its attention on standards. Indeed, at first we thought the bill was about addressing the proposed code for parliamentarians, which the member for Manukau East, the Assistant Speaker Ross Robertson, is putting forward to the Standing Orders Committee. Across the Chamber, the honourable member for Rodney also referred to the need for ethical behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EStandards are something we have a great passion for in the M\u0101ori Party. We are firmly committed to contributing to a high standard of behaviour in this House and to ensuring that members agree to work together, treat each other with respect, and act with integrity. Without even looking at the bill we were happy to promote conformance with acceptable social standards of behaviour, compliance with practices and values that promote mutual respect, and harmonious relationships. It does, however, always pay to look at the detail of the bill in order to identify what standards we are talking about. The standards in this bill are specific to the trade, health, and safety of the environmental world, of which the Standards Council and the Testing Laboratory Registration Council are key elements. They are standards and specifications in relation to health, disabilities, business, environment, and building. They are standards that provide a basis for consistent and acceptable minimal levels of quality, performance, safety, and reliability. The Standards Council develops standards for goods and services, while the Testing Laboratory Registration Council assures everyone that the standards are being met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESo how does this legislation apply? How will it apply? Indeed, can it apply? Can it make a difference to the standards of goods and services? When we were looking for a topical example yesterday, we found the case of a festive taxi driver who was fined for attempting to spread Christmas cheer. The Hamilton driver, known simply as \u201CButch\u201D, says he was banned from work after disobeying the taxi uniforms policy by wearing a Santa hat. Butch told the press that he was ordered to remove the offensive headgear earlier this month, but refused and got a fine of $50. I guess that is a case of standards being applied to the most extreme degree. It is important to maintain standards, and it is something that we in the M\u0101ori Party are committed to, but that is probably a case of carrying a good thing too far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EOne of the bill\u2019s key achievements will be to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the Standards Council and the Testing Laboratory Registration Council. In thinking around how that will apply, there can be no more dramatic an example than what was termed the \u201Cunfortunate experiment\u201D\u2014the results of the Gisborne inquiry into the National Cervical Screening Programme. In 1990 when the programme was launched, the scheme was initiated without any performance standards in place. Ten years later when the Gisborne inquiry was called for, there were no standards, no performance indicators, and little ongoing monitoring and evaluation. If members recall, the Gisborne inquiry revealed that only 32 percent of the smears in which Gisborne laboratories detected abnormalities were marked as high-grade. In other words, 68 percent were missed. What does that mean in real terms? It means that 616 women had missed high-grades, 577 women who were referred for colonoscopy were diagnosed with cancer after May 1999, and nine women died from cervical cancer. That is the level of crisis that provides the context for demanding improvements in standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWhat the Gisborne inquiry found was ample evidence of an unacceptable level of under-reporting. It found very poor standards at Gisborne laboratories, which lacked both internal and external quality control. It found that Dr Bottrill had failed to gain accreditation for his laboratory and, worst of all, there was a severe lack of monitoring and evaluation of the laboratory performance, which meant that Dr Bottrill\u2019s under-reporting went undetected. Had those contracting with cytology laboratories understood and adhered to the importance of quality assurance, then the requirement for laboratories to be independently accredited by the Testing Laboratory Registration Council would have been enforced. There is no question that there are serious issues with the standards and conformance that operated with the National Cervical Screening Programme. The M\u0101ori Party will continue to raise questions about the programme, particularly why more M\u0101ori women have developed, and died from, cervical cancer than non-M\u0101ori women. In the year 2000 the death rate for M\u0101ori women was 8.1 for 100,000, but for non-M\u0101ori women the death rate was only 1.9 for every 100,000. Why is that the case? If we are really going to get serious about standards, why should we not set in place standards that mean something and under which M\u0101ori should enjoy at least the basic minimum that non-M\u0101ori do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThat example brings me to another point about the bill. The majority of standards are developed in partnership with Standards Australia. The function of registering certification bodies comes through the Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand, which was established by a treaty between the Australian and New Zealand Governments in 1991. The bill aligns the functions of the Standards Council and the Testing Laboratory Registration Council with international standards, and conformance norms and practices. It does that, in essence, by transferring the authority of our body, the Testing Laboratory Registration Council, to the joint Australian and New Zealand body, the Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand. Although that is good in terms of lining ourselves up with international standards, we have to look at the other side. The context of the bill is the Government\u2019s programme of strengthening the trading relationships between New Zealand and Australia, and with other countries that conduct conformity certification programmes, which is yet another example of our own autonomy\u2014our sovereignty\u2014being compromised in an attempt towards a closer relationship with Australia. A transfer of authority to another body lessens our own Government\u2019s sovereignty and the ability to determine domestic standards and conformance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party must also ask the question about whether the Government has consulted with its Treaty of Waitangi partner before signing trans-Tasman agreements. Earlier today I spoke about the importance of the Treaty as a foundation of our constitution. As I said then, the Treaty is our primary document. It is deeply philosophical and it is the appropriate document for Aotearoa at this time. It also guides us in all matters of domestic and international negotiation, as indeed it should in this bill today. I also need to advise the House that there are many indigenous nations who look at the Treaty of Waitangi as a model for their nations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESo we ask the House whether tangata whenua will be specifically consulted in developing and recommending specifications to minimise environmental risks and promote social responsibility, as proposed in the Standards and Conformance Bill 2005. Or will there be two different standards, as demonstrated by the figures from the Gisborne inquiry? I remind the House of the difference in the death rate from cervical cancer in the year 2000: 8.1 for every 100,000 M\u0101ori women and 1.9 for non-M\u0101ori. As my colleague Nandor Tanczos also reminded us this morning, there are two standards for the use of language in this House. Te reo, which is an official language of Aotearoa, is accorded an inferior position in comparison with English. N\u0101 reira Nandor Tanczos t\u0113n\u0101 koe e whakapuaki mai i \u014D whakaaro ki te Whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[And so thank you, Nandor Tanczos, for disclosing your thoughts to this House; thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESocial responsibility is surely about taking responsibility for the outcomes for all in Aotearoa, n\u0113? N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 tatou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Commerce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225bdf55e09ba34fabadc7800a3ec70d70\u0022\u003EGeographical Indications (Wine and Spirits) Registration Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c4c01784b7b4653a2450d050f205fc5\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u00222bdfad4246114145bb0623da87b8afda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bdfad4246114145bb0623da87b8afda\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Associate Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Geographical Indications (Wine and Spirits) Registration Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for its consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill repeals and replaces the Geographical Indications Act 1994. The Act was passed in response to obligations arising from the World Trade Organization Agreement on Trade-related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPs). The Act established a registration system for the protection of geographical indications and accorded a level of protection consistent under the TRIPs agreement. However, the Act has never been brought into force, in part because there was no strong interest in New Zealand, and in part because other developments internationally did not eventuate. This has resulted in the 1994 Act being out of date. The purpose of the bill, then, is to put in place a modern, efficient, and cost-effective process for the registration of geographical indications of wines and spirits, which both serves the purposes of our industries and meets our obligations under the TRIPs agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe geographical indications, as defined by the World Trade Organization TRIPs agreement, indicate that a good originates from a place where a certain quality, reputation, or some other characteristic is essentially attributable to its geographical origin. The most obvious example is champagne. In New Zealand, over recent years, regions such as Marlborough, Martinborough, Hawke\u2019s Bay, and Central Otago have also become synonymous with great wine production. For producers, geographical indications can be a helpful marketing tool, along with trademarks, in the promotion of products. They support regional efforts for establishing and developing both a geographical branch and excellence. A geographical indication can help consumers to make informed choices about the products they are buying. Over the past decade New Zealand\u2019s reputation as a producer of great wine has gone from strength to strength. Our sauvignon blanc is regarded as the finest in the world. We may well need to move to protect Hawke\u2019s Bay or Marlborough\u2019s sauvignon blanc, for example, against producers passing it off as theirs in other places around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill reaffirms New Zealand\u2019s commitment to providing a strong intellectual property regime that offers clarity for users and fully complies with New Zealand\u2019s obligations internationally. The TRIPs agreement establishes minimum standards for the protection of intellectual property rights, including geographical indications, which World Trade Organization members are required to provide. But we do have flexibility on how we choose to give effect to those obligations. The bill will provide a clearer, more coherent framework for honouring New Zealand\u2019s international obligations. At present, we implement our TRIPs obligations via the Fair Trading Act 1986 and the tort of passing off. This has necessitated legal action in order to clarify the status of geographical indication\u2014for example, in the champagne case. By establishing a register for geographical indications, the bill will provide a less costly method of establishing legal certainty as to the status of geographical terms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill contains a new definition of geographical indication to ensure that only those places that meet the standards of the TRIPs agreement are able to register under the Act. This means that a registered geographical indication needs to be able to indicate that a good is originating from a particular area where a particular quality, reputation, or other characteristic of the good can be attributable to its geographical indication. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill limits registration to geographical indications for wines and spirits only. The TRIPs agreement accords two levels of protection for geographical indications: a standard level, which applies to all goods and requires Governments to provide measures to prevent the misleading or confusing use of geographical indication; and a higher level, which applies only to wines and spirits. This requires us to provide measures to prevent the use of a geographical indication on a wine or spirit that does not originate from the area indicated. The prohibition applies regardless of whether the use misleads or confuses as to the origin of the product. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe protection accorded to registered geographical indications by the bill is consistent with this higher level of protection for wines and spirits. A person who uses that indication on a wine or spirit that does not originate from the geographical area indicated will be deemed to have contravened section 9 of the Fair Trading Act 1986, and the provisions of that Act will apply accordingly. However, registration will not be compulsory. Unregistered geographical indications for all products\u2014wines, spirits, and others\u2014will continue to be protected through the Fair Trading Act 1986 and through the common-law tort of passing off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe TRIPs agreement establishes a balance of rights and obligations for the protection of geographical indications. This balance includes limitations and exceptions for geographical indication protection. The bill incorporates all of the limitations and exceptions to protection provided for by the TRIPs agreement\u2014for example, the protection is not to be afforded to terms that are considered generic in the New Zealand market, nor will the bill influence the way in which common descriptive terms are used in the New Zealand market. Similarly, the bill also clarifies the relationship between trademarks and geographical indications consistent with the New Zealand position internationally on those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill implements a first-in-line, first-in-right principle for determining which right has priority. A later-filed geographical indication will, in most instances, be prevented from registration by an earlier-filed trademark, and vice versa. In very limited circumstance the bill allows for the potential of a later-filed geographical indication to be considered, despite a pre-existing trademark having priority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EHomonymous geographical indications refer to geographical indications that are identical in name but relate to different geographical areas. Provided that both are legitimate, the bill allows for the possibility of registration for both geographical indications. Conditions may be imposed on the registration to ensure that the use of both terms does not lead to confusion in the market place. As registration is not compulsory, the bill introduces an exception to protect unregistered homonymous geographical indications to be used in the event that someone subsequently registers the geographical indication. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EMore generally, the Geographical Indications (Wine and Spirits) Registration Bill represents a comprehensive reform of key aspects of New Zealand\u2019s intellectual property regime. It forms part of a wider reform process to ensure that our intellectual property legislation is up to date, taking into account international developments. The wider process includes the updated Trade Marks Act 2002 and reviews an updating of the Patents Act 1953, the Plant Variety Rights Act 1987, and the Copyright Act 1994. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EGeographical indications are an important aspect of New Zealand\u2019s intellectual property rights framework. The bill will assist our burgeoning wine industry by ensuring that a modern, efficient, and cost-effective registration process is in place for geographical indications of our wines and spirits. A registration system will provide legal certainty for producers, without stifling the innovation that has marked the rise of the New Zealand wine industry. The bill does not make registration compulsory. Existing legal mechanisms will continue to apply, and the bill will also help consumers to make informed choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill will provide a clearer and more coherent framework for honouring New Zealand\u2019s international obligations. It considers the changes that have taken place in the international context since the 1994 Act was passed and puts in place measures that ensure the continuing use of terms in common use in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00227a23cd933b054becb12f5173e1955a59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a23cd933b054becb12f5173e1955a59\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E It always frustrates me when Ministers come down to the House and gabble through a speech written by someone else when they introduce a bill, and clearly do not have the faintest notion what the bill is doing or what it is about. It is even worse when they do not even know how to pronounce words that have been written into the speech. If Ministers are not going to write their own speeches\u2014if they are going to come in here and read a speech that some official has written for them\u2014they should at least make sure that they can pronounce the words and that they know what they mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I want to make it clear that National will be supporting the Geographical Indications (Wine and Spirits) Registration Bill. I must say that this legislation has a fascinating history. It would be fair to say that when the issue of geographical indications was first raised here in New Zealand, it caused a bit of concern. If members think back, we used to make stuff in New Zealand that we used to call champagne. Things like port were made in New Zealand. There was a lot of concern that if the New Zealand Parliament were to have to pass this kind of legislation it might mean that New Zealand would not be able to market products that it has always accepted had certain names, and they would lose their identity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHowever, over recent years, as trade liberalisation has become a major development around the world, and as the World Trade Organization\u2014which was formed from the GATT during the Uruguay round of trade negotiations\u2014continued its work of trade liberalisation, the issue of geographical indications and, if one likes, protecting intellectual property in a liberalising market, became a major issue for the World Trade Organization. Consequently the World Trade Organization members agreed to an important agreement called the World Trade Organization Agreement on Trade-related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights, more commonly known as the TRIPs agreement. Up until now it would be fair to say that the way in which New Zealand has given effect to that agreement, although it has been reasonably effective, has been a cumbersome way of giving effect to our international obligations under the TRIPs agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhen National was in office in 1994 it passed the first Geographical Indications Act, but it never actually brought its provisions into effect. When this bill, whose first reading we are debating today, is passed into law it will repeal the 1994 Act, and we support that. I think that this bill is an improvement over the 1994 Act. We concur with the Government that instead of simply bringing the 1994 Act into effect, it makes sense to replace it with this bill. One of the big differences between the 1994 Act and this bill is that this bill quite wisely restricts the geographical indications legislation to wine and spirits. Under the TRIPs agreement that is an area where New Zealand must make sure we comply very carefully with our international obligations, so this legislation makes sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOne could give examples to show where this kind of legislation will have effect. The Minister, when introducing the bill, spoke of champagne and how the TRIPs agreement makes it illegal for New Zealand to call sparkling wine champagne. Of course, many fine wines do come from places like Champagne in France. Another classic example of a French geographical indicator is Burgundy. Of course, Burgundy is a wine name that has tremendous significance around the world. Many countries, I guess, would like to market wine under the name Burgundy, but, of course, the TRIPs agreement makes it clear that that is a geographical indicator that has market value to the Burgundy area and that wines produced elsewhere should not be able to use the name Burgundy. Likewise, with Bordeaux wines, some winemakers around the world might dearly like to call their wines Bordeaux because of the very fine reputation that wines from Bordeaux have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMost countries of any significance are members of the World Trade Organization and most are parties to the TRIPs agreement, so those kinds of geographic indicators are protected. As the Minister said, as time goes on this could have positive spin-offs for New Zealand. I guess that initially it was seen as negative for us that we could not call wines Burgundy. I cannot remember where the situation has got to on port, but I guess that in the future we may not be able to call wines port. Of course, for us in the future it does have potential benefits\u2014unless we get into the provisions in the clause on homonymous indications. The Minister had a bit of trouble getting that word past her tongue, and I am not sure that the Minister explained exactly what it means. Words that have the same spelling or the same sound are homonyms, and the bill provides for that. For example, one of our indicators could be Marlborough. It would not take much thought to realise that there is more than one Marlborough in the world. It would be extraordinarily difficult for one country to claim an exclusive geographical indicator when there is a homonym that is common to more than one place, and the legislation addresses that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAs with all legislation like this\u2014and earlier on today legislation was introduced to license immigration advisers\u2014we are all the time introducing more and more red tape into our economy. It is really important that this red tape be minimised. The Government has introduced several bills today that bring in miles more red tape, but I am not aware of any bill introduced today that actually gets rid of red tape. We always have to be careful of red tape. One feature of this bill that I do support is that it makes no provisions beyond that required of our obligations under the TRIPs agreement. The Government has not taken any great flights of fancy to provide more red tape under this legislation than is required under our obligations under the TRIPs agreement. What is more, the level of protection guaranteed by this bill is a level of protection consistent only with that required by article 23 of the TRIPs agreement. Again, one of the reasons that National supports this legislation is that it does not go beyond the protections required by the TRIPs agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I point out that although National totally supports the bill\u2019s coverage, because it goes no further than that required by the TRIPs agreement, we must make sure that the processes the bill establishes put in place minimal red-tape requirements. I repeat that today the Labour Government has introduced several bills that will bring in more red tape. I am not aware of any bills that the Government has introduced today that get rid of red tape. One thing that all New Zealand business people understand is that we are becoming absolutely tied up in red tape. It is becoming a major constraint on New Zealand\u2019s economic growth. The select committee should make sure that this legislation does not produce any more red tape in its procedures than is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI repeat that National will support this bill because it is consistent with our international obligations. We support the fact that it repeals the 1994 Act and we support its coverage. We think it is a sensible measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022de5f9998924948aa84595c7554ba5658\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de5f9998924948aa84595c7554ba5658\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First likewise supports the bill. Yet again, as Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith has said, it is something we have to do to line up with international obligations. Unfortunately in the countries we sell into\u2014be that selling wine, dairy products, beef, or the other things we rely on, basically, for our standard of living\u2014we face not only tariff barriers but also non-tariff barriers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe greatest of those is the apple situation in Australia. To give Dr Lockwood Smith his credit he battled that for many years. To his credit he involved himself in, I guess, an international incident\u2014it is off our shores\u2014by suggesting to the Australians that they were not as clean as perhaps they might pretend to be. He was right, of course, but diplomacy does not allow one to say those things, and the matter was plastered over. However, the honourable member was quite correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe have to fall into line, particularly in the matter of wine, where one cannot name a wine after a French province, or whatever, without paying some sort of fee. New Zealand First supports this bill. We think it is essential. International agreements are something that we as a country cannot get around. This is one of many such agreements that we are forced to comply with, and we do so reluctantly but with the knowledge that New Zealand has to abide by its international obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u0022093ea86896264d0eb758722606947f2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022093ea86896264d0eb758722606947f2d\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E The wine industry is of huge importance to my electorate. It provides employment, foreign exchange earnings, and outstanding wine for all consumers to enjoy. This situation is replicated throughout New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI did not understand one word of the Minister\u2019s speech, so I want to start by focusing on what this bill is about. International demand is changing away from the heavy red wines of Europe, towards lighter flavoured wines, and our plantings are very important in areas like Martinborough, which is regarded as an area that produces the best Pinot noir wine in the world. There is huge room to expand our industry, because we are contributing only 0.2 of 1 percent to the global wine bucket each year. If we look at our climate, we realise that New Zealand wine yields can vary by 25 to 50 percent, plus or minus, compared with plus or minus 5 percent in Australia, which this morning\u2019s Dominion Post points out is in vast oversupply of grapes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EAlthough production and markets are important, New Zealand must ensure that it meshes with our international trade obligations in the World Trade Organization, and particularly the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights, or \u201CTRIPs\u201D. I feel it is a real pity that the Minister has taken so long to bring this bill to the first reading stage, but certainly National supports it. The bill will bring common sense to bear. It is really important that our wine-producing regions have identifiable boundaries, and that is what this bill will provide. The consumer and the producer need to know that if a bottle of wine has the words \u201CMartinborough wine\u201D on the label, the wine can be proven to have been produced from grapes grown in Martinborough. This outcome, from the point of view of Wairarapa electorate vintners, cannot come soon enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBut let me draw members\u2019 attention to the bill. One area of the bill that looks to me to be weak is where it gives precedence to existing trademarks over geographical indication registrations, where they are similar or identical\u2014for example, clauses 13 and 14. Clause 15 does provide limited grounds for a geographical indication to be registered, where it conflicts with an existing trademark. But a problem that could arise is that if a wine with a trademark similar to a geographical indication\u2014for example, Martinborough Vineyard\u2014contains less than 85 percent of grapes from the geographical indication its name suggests, then a requirement that wines with a trademark substantially similar to a geographical indication meet the 85 percent content rule would fix that and ensure that the consumer would not have the wool, legally, pulled over the eyes on origin. Otherwise, the bill is better than expected, and the sooner it is implemented the better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBut let me draw the attention of this House to the unreasonable charges being levied on this industry. For example, this Government is taking $130 million from the wine industry as an excise tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc7f1515d36b457688bad0017c08560b\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Robbery!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274514673eccc4336952eaba4d2d7cc3b\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolute robbery. And what is it using the money for? It is using it to give interest-free loans to our students. It is robbing the vintners and giving the money free, without any interest at all, to students. These same growers who provide this $130 million invest in land and plant. They provide employment, and they provide our country with foreign exchange earnings. They generally operate as small businesses that face a plethora of red tape and regulation, as well as a disadvantageous exchange rate and high interest rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIf one says \u201C$130 million\u201D fast enough, it does not register much. Most people do not understand what $130 million actually means, because they have never experienced that sort of money. Well, I would like the chardonnay socialists sitting across the Chamber to realise that one bottle of chardonnay costing $20 allows the Government to retain $2.20 as GST. That is the first tax. Then there is a retail margin of about $3.78, and a distributor\u2019s margin of about $3.45. Of the $20 retail, about $10.55 ends up with the wine producer, exclusive of GST. From this residue, the chardonnay socialists take $1.69, or about 16 percent of the money the vintner receives. This is after they have paid GST, of course, and it is after they and their company and employees have paid income tax. The vintner pays about $2.60 for the grapes that go into the bottle, which is roughly 25 percent of the price, then another $2.49, or 23 percent, for winemaking and packaging costs. This leaves $3.77, or 36 percent, of the amount the vintner receives\u2014$10.55\u2014to cover overheads, freight, marketing, and a return on capital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBut a $20 bottle of wine, as our chardonnay socialist friends would know, is a super-premium wine. Most wine is cheaper, so the impact is greater. This excise tax\u2014$130 million a year, or $1.69 on every bottle\u2014is a huge money-spinner for the Government, which feels it knows better than the vintners how to spend. And who says that a chardonnay socialist knows how to spend the vintner\u2019s money better than a vintner, especially when the vintner is struggling to survive? In my view, the $130 million excise tax should be left to the industry to decide how to spend. It is the industry\u2019s money. The chardonnay socialists are squandering it. Furthermore, the promise of a high dollar\u2014or the economic policy being pursued by the chardonnay socialist, resulting in a high dollar\u2014is creating a very dangerous situation in an environment of high interest rates and difficult market conditions, and this will impact on New Zealand\u2019s foreign exchange earnings. Foreigners are buying millions of New Zealand dollars every day, primarily because of an exchange rate differential. If we take the euro as an example, for the first time in 5 years Belgium has this week reviewed its interest rate upwards to 2.5 percent. The economic policies of our chardonnay socialists will cause huge damage to our economy in 2006. This House has been warned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229965688f71bc4bbab8c7ec2cc8d7010b\u0022\u003EHousing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters (Information Matching) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022580c17c2f1c64b189aeecb4c1d971e4e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022f95097ce8bfe4ef7ae6d95f965ec950d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f95097ce8bfe4ef7ae6d95f965ec950d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters (Information Matching) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I will move that the bill be referred to the Social Services Committee for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for information matching between Housing New Zealand Corporation and the Ministry of Social Development. It authorises the corporation to disclose to the ministry information relating to its tenants and tenancies. The information match between Housing New Zealand Corporation and the Ministry of Social Development follows 2003 and 2004 Budget initiatives for new and extended information matches between various Government agencies and the Ministry of Social Development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe ministry has completed the implementation of higher priority information matches with other agencies. These matches have resulted in savings to taxpayers and maintain the integrity of the income support system. The ministry has now engaged with Housing New Zealand Corporation to implement an information-matching programme from 1 July 2006. The information will help minimise overpayments of benefits and student allowances, help the recovery of beneficiary and student debt arising from those overpayments, and help in the detection of fraud. In addition to minimising overpayments that could result in ongoing repayments, the information match may benefit tenants, their partners, and dependents, by identifying situations where they are not receiving their correct entitlement to income support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EInformation-matching rules under the Privacy Act require that individuals affected by the programme will be notified. Housing New Zealand Corporation will undertake targeted publicity before the implementation of the information-matching programme and throughout the operation of the programme, to comply with the information-matching rules in the Privacy Act. All new and existing corporation tenants will be made aware that information supplied to it by tenants may be provided to the Ministry of Social Development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe ministry has agreed to provide reports to Housing New Zealand Corporation on the extent to which housing tenants are giving incorrect information to the corporation. This will allow Housing New Zealand Corporation to make informed decisions on potential remedies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill renames the Housing Restructuring Act 1992 as the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Act 1992, to make it clear that the Act will provide for tenancy matters. The bill also makes consequential amendments to the Privacy Act to include Housing New Zealand Corporation and Housing New Zealand Ltd as specified agencies for the purposes of information sharing, and to list the new information-matching provisions. The bill extends information matching between agencies so to improve the integrity of the income support system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf9ec9dc69bc4a89a0f6b668f651f857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf9ec9dc69bc4a89a0f6b668f651f857\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party, and would like to make it clear to members present in the House and those listening in their offices that the National Party supports this bill. We will be voting for it to go to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe were looking to introduce just this type of legislation in the late 1990s, but unfortunately at that time the Labour Party was not keen to support it. We were quite disappointed in that at that time, quite simply because we look for transparency in our social services and social welfare system\u2014we always have. We in the National Party have always had the view that there needs to be a safety net, a social welfare system, for those who need housing, for those who need a degree of income assistance, for those who need childcare during various times in their lives, and for all those who from time to time go to the taxpayer\u2014essentially, the Government\u2014and ask for help for a short period while they get on their feet. The National Party has always been more than willing to support such a social welfare system. But, in saying that, we have also been a party strong on accountability, transparency, and making sure that those who are in need are the ones\u2014regardless of race, I would have to add\u2014who are receiving help from the general public through the social welfare system, not those who might possibly rort the system or ride it for all it is worth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe looked at introducing such provisions for Housing New Zealand in the late 1990s, but the Labour Party at that time signalled that it would not support that. It is just amazing how ideas suddenly dawn on other parties and they realise that, yes, sometimes parties with an opposite view actually do have a good idea. We are pleased that it is being brought to fruition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EHowever, we will be looking out for the fish-hooks that may be in this legislation, particularly any threats to the Privacy Act. I have noted that this legislation does have respect for the Privacy Act, and I am pleased to see that. It does recognise the Privacy Act, it finds a way to negotiate around the provisions of that legislation, and I am delighted with that. But I want to go through the detail clause by clause with select committee colleagues, with officials from the Ministry of Social Development and the Housing New Zealand Corporation, and with members of the general public, just to check that the provisions are fair. We do not want disclosure of private information; we do not want individual rights to be trampled over when this bill goes through. What we do want to see is transparency and openness of process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThat is why we support the idea of information sharing with the Ministry of Social Development. There is no doubt in my mind that rorts are going on in the Housing New Zealand Corporation sector\u2014effectively, State housing. I have certainly made quite a public fuss about the situation at present where State houses are being effectively used as businesses\u2014commercial enterprises. I am not talking about engineering workshops being run out of State houses or anything like that. It is quite simple: it is the issue of boarders. Some State house tenants, as time has moved on and the young family has grown up and dispersed, have been left with two, three, or four-bedroom houses, and they use simply one room or a couple of rooms, and have a lot of spare rooms. They are renting those rooms out to boarders and making quite a tidy income on the side. That is entirely understandable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fbc2a6b16484048890319d385f83f80\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9f543faaa804361bb835de15a29e14b\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a month ago the Minister of Housing told the public of New Zealand, through the Sunday Star-Times, which is a good paper for investigative reporting, that just over 1,000 State houses had boarders as well as the tenants\u2014that the tenants of those State houses actually had boarders. I did some further investigation and discovered that the Minister had got it wrong; he had got it wrong, but only by 700 percent. There were not 1,000 State house tenancies in New Zealand that had boarders; the number was actually a bit more than that\u2014just under 7,000. Members should remember that the taxpayer has given tenants a State house because they are in need. Just under 7,000 State house tenants in this country have boarders. They have extra rooms and they are renting them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe National Party is saying that if a State house tenant has a 16-year-old or 17-year-old son at polytech who needs to save money or is on a tight budget, and who wants to board at home, renting him a room is fine. It is entirely understandable. It is entirely understandable if a State house tenant\u2019s 75-year-old mum, who is now alone, wants to move in with that tenant, to board with that tenant. Maybe a State house tenant is renting out two extra rooms, to a daughter who is at polytech and to the 75-year-old mother. The National Party is saying it is understandable that one would want to help out one\u2019s elderly parents or one\u2019s children. But I have discovered that there are just under 7,000 tenancies in New Zealand where not one room, not two rooms, but three, four, or five rooms are being rented out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThere is one case in New Zealand of a State house tenant with seven boarders. The Minister of Housing, Chris Carter, has a tenant in Mount Albert who is renting out four rooms, and he already has an income of $67,000 a year. I have not done a press release on that yet, because I have yet to check whether the particular tenant is a relation of Chris Carter\u2019s. I want to check that, because I do not want to get the Minister in trouble. I want to be able to go to him and tell him quietly: \u201CChris, your cousin\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dceac03585043499486a0b1f8ea28d1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member must use a member\u2019s full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e867b391ac084c5db9f808fd794ca714\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Cis on $67,000 a year, and he is renting out a State house to four boarders. Get him out of there! I don\u2019t want to go public with this.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENational members support the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters (Information Matching) Amendment Bill because we want transparency in the process. We believe that a State house tenant can have boarders if the tenant is supporting young family members or older family members, or whatever the situation could be, but that to rent out three, four, five, six, or seven rooms and make a killing on the side, off the back of a taxpayer-provided home, is absolutely wrong. This bill, we hope, when we see the detail of it, will target situations where rorts are going on. It is my hope that that will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EObviously, there will be information sharing on the income of tenants. That may be through the work they do, or it may be through other benefits they receive. But information matching is absolutely necessary because, with the social welfare system growing in the way that it has over the last few years, we have seen a mad rush of all those people moving off the unemployment benefit and on to invalids and sickness benefits. The National Party wants to get that under control. We believe there are some rorts going on in the State house area\u2014not by the majority of people, not by 90 percent of the people whom we care for, but by the 10 percent who are ratbags and the ones we want to target or nail. We want to make sure that, regardless of whether they are cousins of Chris Carter, we get them, move them on, and make sure they are contributing to this country, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe National Party supports this legislation. We will be voting for its first reading, and examining it at the select committee. We commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8007abd38794872b891efdd2b3922ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8007abd38794872b891efdd2b3922ce\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a few remarks on behalf of my colleague Pita Paraone, our housing spokesperson. The aim of the bill is to amend the Housing Restructuring Act 1992 in two ways: to rename it as the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Act 1992, and to allow one-way information-matching on tenants and tenancies between Government departments\u2014more precisely, the Housing New Zealand Corporation and the Ministry of Social Development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe primary purpose of the bill is to protect the integrity of the benefits system by allowing an exchange of information that will minimise benefit and student allowance overpayments and will help to detect fraud. The information-matching provision in the bill also applies to tenants on benefits who pay income-related rents. The bill recognises that current legislation struggles with what constitutes a household or a family. The bill is quite specific about what information may be disclosed about who lives at the address in question. The legislation requires a consequential amendment to the Privacy Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will be supporting the bill going to the select committee, but, as the previous speaker indicated he may do, we will certainly be looking for all the fish-hooks within it\u2014in fact, that is the role of the select committee. We support the intent of the legislation to minimise opportunities for the overpayment of benefits, or benefit fraud. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EIt is vital that the information matching is only one way, from the Housing New Zealand Corporation to the Ministry of Social Development, and is requested only on clear and justifiable grounds. There is, in our view, a fine line between having enough information to protect the State\u2019s finances and prying into the private lives of our citizens. That line should be made very clear and should never be crossed. The one-way, specific information-sharing enabled by this bill is acceptable, but New Zealand First is wary of the possibilities afforded by the electronic information age. We will be seeking assurances that any information sharing occurs under strict limits and controls, and is sought only for the purposes outlined in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EChanges required to the Privacy Act will need to be carefully worked through to ensure the intent of that Act is not compromised, and I should imagine some necessary changes will be made to the Electoral Act to ensure we do not have people running up huge bills and winning their elections when, in fact, they have breached the integrity and the intent of that particular Act. Some definite work will need to be done there in terms of legislative reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EIn between times, we shall be voting for this particular bill to go through to the select committee, and we will be looking very carefully at the issues we raise in that forum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf2dc38c739541cc9511b41428387a7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf2dc38c739541cc9511b41428387a7a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As Phil Heatley mentioned in his contribution, the National Party will support the referral of the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters (Information Matching) Amendment Bill to the select committee. I congratulate the Hon Chris Carter on presenting the bill to the House, because it is momentous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EChris Carter has admitted the bill has two main purposes. The first is to rename the Housing Restructuring Act 1992, which will now become the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Act 1992. I congratulate Chris Carter on that huge achievement! He has been a member of the House for a number of years. Many people have asked me whether we are related, but I have assured them there is no relationship at all. I keep getting asked what Chris Carter\u2019s portfolio is and what he has achieved in his time here. I have been embarrassed to say that even though he shares the same surname as me, to date I cannot say there is a lot that he will be remembered for. But today we are creating Chris Carter\u2019s epitaph. The thing by which Chris Carter will be remembered by the Parliament of New Zealand into the future is that he was the man who courageously put forward a bill to change the name of the Housing Restructuring Act 1992 into the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Act 1992. That is a huge achievement, and members on the Opposition side of the House are very happy to support this momentous bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second main purpose of the bill is to allow the sharing of information about tenants and tenancies between Housing New Zealand Corporation and the Ministry of Social Development\u2014or we could say Work and Income. National, of course, supports that measure, because as Phil Heatley said, we wanted to do that in late 1999 but Labour opposed the legislation and claimed that it breached civil liberties. Well, I say to Chris Carter and the other members of the Labour Party that the time has come to get tough on people who are, frankly, rorting the system. We had an excellent example of that provided by Chris Carter today\u2014an admission he will not be remembered for favourably\u2014when, with great reluctance, he revealed that up to 10 percent of all State house tenants are operating a business. They are operating, in many cases, quite substantial boarding houses, whereby they rent a house from Housing New Zealand Corporation and then they take on boarders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn some cases, I suspect the inventive tenants are making quite a considerable fortune. Many State houses are being rented out by this Government, in suburbs like Mount Albert, at a total cost of $35 a week. Under the Government\u2019s income-related rents policy, it is able to rent out some of those very good houses, some of which are quite sizeable, for the princely sum of $35 a week. Members can imagine that if tenants have one or two spare rooms, they can attract a boarder who is interested in living in those one or two rooms. They are in a position to probably charge each boarder a minimum of $100 a week. It is not a bad little lurk for those people to pay the Government 35 bucks for their rent, and to then collect a couple of hundred of bucks\u2014and I bet that that income is not being declared to the Inland Revenue Department. So it is not a bad deal for those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI thank Chris Carter for bringing the legislation forward at long last. We particularly want to follow the very interesting case of the Mount Albert tenant\u2014which Chris Carter is very quiet about; he does not want to talk about this man\u2014with seven boarders in his house. Chris Carter should find out how much they are all paying\u2014probably the best part of 100 bucks a week each, which is $700 a week going into that house. Chris Carter should confirm to us the rent paid by the tenant, but it is likely to be the minimum rent of around $35 or $40-odd a week. That is a sham, particularly when over 12,000 desperate New Zealand families are waiting for State houses as we speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275ec199e590247949da038c948c15a79\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Didn\u2019t you sell off 13,000 yourself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b832d790061d48f780f9fabe439f6ed5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we have the old chimer-in; I wondered how long it would take him. We sold off 13,000 State houses to wonderfully happy, proud homeowners. They were people who lived in State houses, and the previous National Government said to them that if they wanted the opportunity to become a homeowner, we would help them into their house with the Home Buy scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ELabour did not like that; it does not like people to become independent of the State. Labour wants people to be confined to the benefit, to live in State houses, and to be dependent on the generosity of a Government that stifles their own initiative to progress themselves. There is a total difference in philosophy between the Opposition side of the House and the Government side of the House. Labour thinks that if it can keep people downtrodden, force them to live in a State house, and make sure they are on a benefit of one form or another, then hopefully they will vote for Labour for the rest of their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ec2c0b230c4e31b08d24e9716bd512\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s scary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b11abe24f2c74d7abe0fed3e978a5a4b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not scary, because New Zealanders are not as dumb as that. They are fast waking up to the fact that they can do better for themselves if they can break the cycle of dependence on people like Chris Carter, and try to get out there, get their own jobs, and manage to buy their own houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhen the next election brings a National Government into office, I can assure Chris Carter that one of the first bills I want to bring back into the House is one that gives people who are living in State houses the ability to be assisted in buying a State house. I will see that those people become independent, and are no longer dependent on the State. I want those people to own their own houses, although I know Chris Carter hates that idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EOne of the things that new members should do is to take the opportunity to look at the ministerial register of interests, which goes through the interests that all the Ministers have. New members will find that Ministers are not very good at capitalism. They have not gone out and bettered themselves. They have been quite happy to just muddle along, perhaps owning the odd house in Wellington, or perhaps renting a house somewhere else. But I say that the philosophy of members on the Opposition side of the House is to encourage people to get out and do it for themselves, and if they end up owning their own house, then, as far as I am concerned, that is great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002228468e64722e4807b874af01428eec0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228468e64722e4807b874af01428eec0f\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It has been a very curious debate this afternoon, which came just as the House was falling asleep. We have the National Party supporting the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters (Information Matching) Amendment Bill. That does not surprise me at all, given that National members talk about this being the kind of legislation that National put forward in the 1990s but could not get Labour\u2019s support for then. I am very disturbed that Labour is now heading backwards to where National was in the 1990s. With this bill there is no question about that, and it looks as though we may be one of the only parties in the House that opposes the bill. I hope our colleagues in the M\u0101ori Party may be considering opposing it, as well, because it is both unnecessary and intrusive into the lives of beneficiaries, once again. Is it not curious that when it is beneficiaries who are at stake, we have a grand coalition between, so far, National, Labour, and New Zealand First? I hope that at least one other party in the House will stand up for the interests of beneficiaries\u2014no one else seems to be doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe share the concerns of civil liberties groups around the country about the proliferation of information-matching programmes that operate between Government agencies. Such programmes have grown from 20\u2014more than enough\u2014in 1995-96 to 72 in 2004-05. That information comes from the 2005 annual report of the Privacy Commissioner\u2014I did not make it up. So there are 72 information-matching programmes; we do not need any more. This widespread expansion represents a major intrusion of the State into the private lives of New Zealanders. Just because people are beneficiaries does not mean they do not count as human beings with civil and human rights. Some limits have to be imposed on this proliferation, and the Green Party considers that the programme that is proposed by the bill falls outside any reasonable limit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe bill also sets Housing New Zealand Corporation tenants aside from other tenants and puts them all in a category of their own, which is rather odd. People who are renting from private landlords or from other social landlords, such as local bodies or third sector housing agencies, will not be required to provide the same level of information matching as required by the bill. That does not make sense, either, even if one believes in what the bill is on about. The Green Party considers that it is unacceptable to establish two classes of tenants with different privacy rights with regard to their tenancy information. All tenants should have the right to have their personal information treated in the same way and in accordance with the law by their landlords, regardless of whom that landlord might happen to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI also ask why the bill is necessary. Section 68 of the Privacy Act 1993 sets out guidelines to the Privacy Commissioner regarding proposed information-matching programmes. One of the things to be considered under those guidelines is whether the use of an alternative means of achieving the same objective would give the desired results of that programme. In this case, I question what the information-matching programme will achieve that the obtaining of the written authority of Housing New Zealand Corporation tenants for their information to be provided through the Ministry of Social Development would not achieve anyway. I am confident that the vast majority of tenants would willingly sign if it was explained that the purpose was to allow them to maximise their benefits and entitlements. In this way, the Ministry of Social Development would obtain the necessary information through informed consent, rather than through some shadowy information-matching programme that most tenants will not even know exists. There are ample\u2014and some of us would say draconian\u2014powers already in the Social Security Act 1964 and its myriad of amendments, and in the Education Act in regard to student allowances, to investigate the circumstances of those who may not agree to such information being shared by Housing New Zealand Corporation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI am also concerned that the focus\u2014as usual, unfortunately\u2014is on extending State powers to detect and prevent benefit fraud, rather than on how the State may actually do its best to extend entitlements to beneficiaries and make sure that people are receiving their full and correct entitlements. We still have a massive problem, right around the country, with regard to an ineffective administration of our benefit system so that many people do not get their correct entitlements. I would far rather see the focus be on people getting the full amount they are entitled to, rather than there being yet another piece of legislation aimed at trying to cut people off and harass them further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFinally, I am quite suspicious about why we have to have a whole bill that provides a separate purpose around the information-matching programme, rather than just inserting into existing legislation a list of specified agencies, as contained in section 97 of the Privacy Act, that can carry out such programmes. Why do we have to have a whole bill to do this, even if one agrees with what is going on? Most information programmes are carried out under Part 10 of the Privacy Act, rather than having specific legislation like this written for them. I question whether the full detail of that programme needs to be contained in the legislation. Is it because the Government is concerned that the Privacy Commissioners themselves may not look favourably upon that programme? Clearly, there are other means of achieving the same objective that do not impinge upon tenants\u2019 privacy in the manner that this bill sets out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party totally opposes this bill as being unnecessary, undemocratic, and intrusive. I wish that the Government would put the same effort into helping beneficiaries to get enough to live on and achieve the full entitlements they should already be getting, rather than on finding new ways to further harass them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002262bfbef36a0b4045857e52b3f74a5933\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262bfbef36a0b4045857e52b3f74a5933\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the M\u0101ori Party, I say that we support this bill going to the select committee. It opens up a whole can of worms about the living situations of a lot of our people. We would like some clarity, not just about the issues of boarding, etc., but about the status our people have in respect of their housing, and about the ways in which they can be moved from the situation of poverty that most who live in those houses are currently facing to a situation whereby they can own those homes themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00227bde10e0dfce4bd5970dcd10e37f57bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bde10e0dfce4bd5970dcd10e37f57bb\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to support this bill going to a select committee. I guess I should make the comment that it is better late than never from this Labour Government. As we heard from Mr Carter just before, National wanted to put this bill forward at the end of 1999. ACT certainly would have supported the bill at that stage, and we support it now, because we are talking about very sensible provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe bill will allow the Ministry of Social Development to match information from the Housing New Zealand Corporation against its files. The information would be used to reduce fraud and the overpayment of benefits, by providing accurate details of how many people live at the recipients\u2019 Housing New Zealand Corporation addresses and what their tenancy details are. I think it is useful to look at what information can be disclosed, particularly in light of the discussion we have had about the changes made necessary to the Privacy Act as a result of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EInformation that may be disclosed includes the names and dates of birth of tenants in Housing New Zealand Corporation housing, those of their spouses or partners and dependent children, and those of the dependent children of those spouses or partners; the location of the houses; details of the tenancies, including the start and end dates; income details of those living at the address; and the address details. The information disclosed will be used by the Ministry of Social Development to help it to verify a person\u2019s entitlement or eligibility to a benefit, verify the amount of any benefit to which a person is or was entitled, and recover debts due to the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESixty percent of Housing New Zealand Corporation tenants have their rent paid directly out of their benefit by Work and Income. That system is not available to beneficiaries renting privately. That is one area where I think the bill is perhaps deficient, and I look forward to the discussion at the select committee about that particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe bill will make it harder for people to defraud the welfare agencies by misrepresenting their income, rent, or the number of dependent people living at an address. There has been some discussion of late, particularly in the media, about people living in Housing New Zealand Corporation houses and renting out rooms. There has been some discussion about that today, and I think most people would agree that that income certainly should be disclosed where it is occurring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThat information will be made available to the Ministry of Social Development, which will also make it easier for the ministry to recover outstanding debt. We should not forget that 49 percent of beneficiaries owe a debt to Work and Income. That matter was discussed recently at the financial review of the Ministry of Social Development at the Social Services Committee, and every member of the committee was very concerned about it. That rate is far too high, and measures need to be put in place so that people who are dependent on a benefit are not being put in the terrible state of having to pay money back. Measures such as not overpaying benefits in the first place would go a long way to help, and this bill should go some way to addressing that problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis bill will not do much about welfare abuse by people who rent privately, as I mentioned before, but it is a positive step in the right direction, especially because Housing New Zealand Corporation properties are Government-owned. Welfare abuse is a major problem in this country. We spend more on welfare than we do on health and education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EACT certainly campaigned very hard at election time on tackling welfare abuse. It prevents this country from moving forward. It prevents those people who are genuinely dependent on the State for their income\u2014people who really are vulnerable, as opposed to those who could be supporting themselves but choose not to do so\u2014from moving forward. Welfare abuse needs to be attended to. ACT would like those people in our society who really are vulnerable to be treated much more generously than they are. In fact, those who prevent that from happening are those who wilfully abuse the welfare system, and something should be done about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EOur burgeoning welfare rolls stand in the way of a great number of things. They stand in the way of tax cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022740d92713c784442abb0ec1aacae655f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Our shrinking welfare roll is down by 90,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fe2b4f55823446fad5244831648fc89\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: If Dr Cullen were to listen carefully, he might learn something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274af5831c2e94c6388fa683fa22a85a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Our shrinking welfare roll is down by 90,000 under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce48a1582e7f440986c827074aa5d687\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure which one Dr Cullen is talking about, but our burgeoning welfare rolls stand in the way of a great many things. Just because they may be shrinking does not mean they are at the level they should be\u2014and they certainly are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EOur burgeoning welfare rolls do, in fact, stand in the way of tax cuts. They stand in the way of infrastructure development and the improvement of core Government services\u2014something that I thought Dr Cullen might be interested in improving, but it seems he is not. When I talk about improving core Government services, I do not mean giving money to the America\u2019s Cup campaign or to any number of things that the Government should not have an interest in, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWelfare makes people dependent on the Government. At the start of this urgency period we had the Taxation (Annual Rates and Urgent Measures) Bill. That legislation needed to be put in place to enhance the Working for Families package, which makes even more families dependent on the State for their income. As Dr Cullen well knows, that money could have been used to provide all the workers of this country with a tax cut, meaning that they would have had more money in their pocket to provide for themselves. That is too good an idea; the Labour Government is not interested in the sort of good idea that would make people stand on their own two feet. Labour is much more interested in making people dependent on the State so that when the next election rolls around, it will be a bit like a turkey voting for a new Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWelfare makes people dependent on the State, as we on this side of the House certainly know, although Government members seem to struggle with that concept. It takes away people\u2019s choices and erodes their skills, it robs people of work routines\u2014which are important, as we know\u2014and it undermines their self-esteem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis bill will, I hope, reduce the potential for fraud and be an encouragement for people to lift themselves back into work. I think it is extraordinarily important legislation, and I am proud to support it\u2014which is also something the Government seems to have ignored. ACT will support this bill going to the select committee and, I suspect, further beyond. We will certainly look out for fish-hooks, as other members have said they will do, during the select committee process. We would like to see one or two things addressed, but by and large this is a very good bill, and we support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294670c031d174bbc8e1456ae3a4e8090\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters (Information Matching) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 114\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000512\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251207e6307624c6aa7a707ce12e9bf08\u0022\u003EUnsolicited Electronic Messages Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a3cc2d8096147d3b8deef913e988e73\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022f731530b76b94dc0b1945f8f0e06edf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f731530b76b94dc0b1945f8f0e06edf8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister for Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Bill be now read a first time. I will move in due course that this bill be considered by the Commerce Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn just a few years, unsolicited commercial email, generally known as spam, has gone from being a minor nuisance to becoming a significant social and economic issue. It is also a drain on the business and personal productivity of New Zealanders. Spam impedes the effective use of email and other communication technologies for personal and business communications. It threatens the growth and acceptance of legitimate e-commerce. Spam technology is also increasingly being used as the delivery mechanism for computer viruses, phishing, and identity theft. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESpam is a multifaceted problem that requires coordinated action from Government, industry, marketers, and consumers working together on several fronts, such as self-regulatory measures. Industry codes are useful steps forward; for example, that of the New Zealand Direct Marketing Association, which has in place a set of standards for email marketing and a spam code of practice that is currently being developed by InternetNZ, in conjunction with the Telecommunications Carriers Forum. Education and awareness campaigns need to be run for business and Internet users. Controlling spam requires technical measures, such as the use of filtering by Internet service providers and users, international cooperation and coordination, and, of course, legislative and regulatory measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ENew Zealand already has many of those measures in place. However, reliance upon on the existing legislative framework, codes of practice, industry and user education, and technical measures alone has shortcomings. The degree of public concern and the growing cost to our economy have made it clear that it is now time for specific anti-spam legislation. Without that legislation, and without a specific anti-spam enforcement agency, New Zealand runs the risk of being seen as a safe haven for spammers, and it will lack a firm basis upon which to enter into multilateral agreements with other countries to address the problem of spam originating from overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EEnactment of this bill is part of a multi-pronged approach to address the problem of spam and will provide the following benefits: it will prohibit spam and enable legal action to be taken against spammers based in New Zealand, it will regulate the sending of commercial electronic messages, it will prevent New Zealand from being seen as a safe haven for spammers, and it will provide a basis for New Zealand to participate in international regulatory arrangements to curb the growth of spam. The bill also sets out an enforcement regime based on civil penalties and the ability to take preventive action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe design of anti-spam legislation requires the resolution of issues such as what messages are covered, who should be covered, and what amounts to consent to receive messages. The resolution of these issues requires the balancing of a number of factors, such as the seriousness of the problem, compliance costs for business, and the right to freedom of expression. The legislation will apply to electronic messages including email, text messages, and instant messages but not to facsimile messages and voice calls. It will apply to commercial messages\u2014that is, those that are primarily for the purpose of marketing or promoting goods or services, land or an interest in land, or a business or investment opportunity, or for the purposes of assisting or enabling a person by deception to dishonestly obtain a financial advantage or a gain from another person. It includes promotional messages\u2014that is, those that market or promote an organisation\u2019s aims and ideals other than where a recipient has not opted out. The legislation will apply to messages with a New Zealand link, messages sent within or from New Zealand, messages authorised by a person or organisation from New Zealand, and messages sent to people in New Zealand from overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe legislation will require specified commercial and promotional electronic messages to have accurate sender identification and a functional \u201Cunsubscribe\u201D facility\u2014that is, a working and clearly visible means of opting out of future such messages. These measures empower Internet service providers, businesses, and users to better control the email they have to deal with. The bill will prohibit the supply and use of address-harvesting software, and address-harvested lists for spam purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe legislation will be enforced through a regime that provides for a range of civil pecuniary penalties and remedies. The enforcement regime will be based on a tiered structure, with emphasis on Internet service providers and telecommunications carriers taking action in response to customer complaints in the first instance. If complaints cannot be satisfactorily resolved in this way, then the user\u2019s Internet service provider can forward the matter to the enforcement agency. The enforcement agency will then consider whether an investigation or further action is appropriate. The Government enforcement agency will have a range of penalties available to it. That will enable it to adopt a flexible approach to enforcement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EUnder this legislation, Internet service providers and users affected by contraventions of the legislation will also have the right to take direct legal action, as well as to join any action taken by the enforcement agency. The agency will have responsibility for carrying out any investigations regarding complaints referred to it by Internet service providers, carriers, or users on matters that it considers should be investigated; issuing warning and infringement notices; taking legal action where appropriate; and cooperating with overseas enforcement agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Bill gives effect to the Government\u2019s decision to enact anti-spam legislation as part of a multi-pronged strategy to reduce and control spam. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00229fc5dbb8a8e74a33af457acf488a65a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fc5dbb8a8e74a33af457acf488a65a0\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party supports the first reading of this bill, which, as the general policy statement says, implements the Government\u2019s decisions on the regulation of electronic messages, known as spam. It is modelled on the Australian Spam Act 2003, although, interestingly, there does not appear to be a definition of spam. The preferred terminology is \u201Cunsolicited commercial electronic message\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI will shortly outline my understanding of the problems with spam, but first a brief note about the source of the term. Webopedia says that the generally accepted version is that the word comes from the Monty Python song with the lyrics: \u201CSpam, spam, lovely spam, wonderful spam.\u201D Like the song, spam is an endless repetition of worthless text\u2014somewhat like the inane contributions in this House by the member for Otaki. Another school of thought maintains that it comes from the computer group lab at the University of Southern California, which gave it the name because it has many of the same characteristics as spam, the tinned meat: nobody wants it or ever asks for it; no one ever eats it\u2014indeed, it is the first item to be pushed to the side when eating the entr\u00E9e\u2014and sometimes it is actually tasty, like 1 percent of junk mail that is rarely useful to some people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhatever the origins of the term, there is no doubt, as the Minister said, that spam is a curse to the modern world. It causes great disruption to individuals, businesses, and the Government. It can be sent to millions of recipients at a time worldwide. Indeed, I recall a tsunami of spam email that arrived in from Germany one afternoon earlier this year\u2014there must have been about a thousand emails in my in-box in the space of a couple of hours. That volume of spam can threaten the effectiveness and efficiency of electronic communication and legitimate online businesses\u2014although I note that the bill will not prevent that kind of extraterritorial spamming. There are many categories of spam, as we know, and as adverted to by the member for Whangarei, the most common categories are the Nigerian financial scams. There is also pornography\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fce9fb6feee4743990f0551b63e8463\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: At least you can make money out of them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229707830471d146d3b7ac14bcbde5661e\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Pornography? Keep quiet. There are also promotions for dubious health products. Perhaps most disturbingly, there is also an emergence of spam that carries a virus. I am no computer whiz and therefore have little understanding of the technical means by which spam can be sent, although I understand that it costs virtually nothing to spend spam, and that it is very easy to send large volumes\u2014as the Germans would tell us. That has led to hundreds of millions of spam messages being sent around the world on a daily basis. Indeed, it has been said that the cost to Australian business is substantial\u2014around $900 per employee per year, and I have no doubt it is much the same here. It can cause a loss of productivity, damage to reputation, and a loss to customers of business opportunity, so, obviously, something needs to be done. Hence the need for legislation prohibiting the sending of unsolicited electronic messages of a marketing nature. That is why the National Party supports the aims of the bill, although, along with much legislation these days, it does seem to be very prescriptive, and in my view some parts are unnecessary. Perhaps the select committee could take a close look at those parts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPart 1 contains the preliminary provisions, including extended definitions of electronic messages and commercial electronic messages. Those provisions are modelled on section 6 of the Australian Act. I think that non-inclusive definitions are preferable, given the rate of technological change in the modern world, and the same comment may apply to other definitions in the definitional section. I hope the select committee will look at that. Clause 8 is a very important clause. It deals with the application of the legislation. The bill, once enacted, will extend to a person who engages in prohibited conduct outside New Zealand if that conduct contravenes the provisions of the bill and if the offender is either an individual who is resident in New Zealand or an organisation that carries on business or activities in New Zealand. But the legislation can have no extraterritorial effect on foreign spammers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPart 2 is the very heart of the legislation. The Minister has outlined the key provisions of clause 9, which provides that a person must not send, or cause to be sent, an unsolicited commercial electronic message that has a New Zealand link, and the onus of showing that the recipient consented to receiving such a message will rest on the person who sent it. Clause 10 prohibits a person from sending, or causing to be sent, a promotional electronic message that has a New Zealand link to any person who has opted out of receiving such messages. Clause 11 requires that every commercial electronic message and promotional electronic message that is either sent or has a New Zealand link must identify clearly and accurately the person who authorised the sending of the message, and must include accurate information about how the recipient can readily contact the person who authorised the message. Clause 13 sets out the defences that can be relied on by a person who either sends an electronic message or causes such a message to be sent. As with other affirmative defences, the onus of proof is on the person who seeks to raise the defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI will not deal with subparts 2 and 3, which, I think, the Minister has dealt with. Subpart 4 will doubtless be of interest to service providers, and I expect that the select committee will receive submissions on that subpart. The service provider does not send an electronic message, cause one to be sent, or contravene third-party breaches simply because it provides a telecommunications service that enables such messages to be sent. Clause 21 is a very important clause. It sets out who is deemed to have authorised the sending of such a message and who is deemed to have sent such a message. It could be that those clauses will require close and careful analysis at the select committee deliberation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI want to focus on Part 3, which contains the enforcement provisions. The bill effectively creates a new statutory cause of action that is a bit like the Fair Trading Act\u2019s causes of action. A civil liability event will be a breach of the key prohibitions in Part 3, to which I have just referred, and clause 23 sets out what the response to the civil liability event will be. I have no particular concerns with subparts 2 and 3 of Part 3, which deal with the obligations of the service provider and the powers of the enforcement department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI do, however, have a few comments to make about subpart 4, which deals with the powers of the High Court. I wonder whether it is really necessary to specify that the court may grant performance, restraining, and interim injunctions. That seems to me to be a prescriptive way of stating the obvious\u2014namely, that the High Court can grant prohibitory, mandatory, and interim injunctions, which is something the court has done from time immemorial. Why do we not simply rely on the existing law? I also wonder whether it is wise to attempt to define, for the purposes of this legislation, the circumstances where such injunctive relief may be granted. In the case of interim injunctive relief, courts are well used to applying what is often referred to as the American Cyanamid test of a serious issue to be tried in balance of convenience, while also considering the issue of overall justice. That test is a broad flexible test that would cover the kinds of situations contemplated by this legislation, so the select committee may want to consider whether those clauses are necessary. I think it best not to have sui generis provisions of that kind unless they are strictly necessary, but rather to rely on the general law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 41 deals with undertakings as to damages, and in fact that clause alters the general law. With every application for an interim injunction under the High Court rules, for example, the applicant must give an undertaking as to damages. In a case involving the Commerce Commission in 1987, the commission argued that it should not be required to give an undertaking, but the court held otherwise, saying the fact that the commission was performing a public duty did not, in the absence of legislation, obviate the requirement to give an undertaking. As far as I am aware, this legislation is the first time an enforcement agency seeking injunctive relief will be exempted from giving an undertaking, and I think that issue needs to be closely looked at by the select committee. The other relief clauses generally appear to be unexceptional, providing as they do for pecuniary penalties, compensation, and damages, and sometimes for all three. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs with the Commerce Act and the Fair Trading Act, one does not rely on the general provisions of the Limitation Act 1950, but there are specific limitation provisions\u2014namely, a 2-year period within which proceedings in the High Court need to be commenced. That would appear to be a sensible period for that kind of infringing behaviour. So I support the bill in its first reading. I hope that the select committee will look at the issues I have raised, and at others that will doubtless be raised through other submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c833117df6243ddaf5cb64ff0e44e97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c833117df6243ddaf5cb64ff0e44e97\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First, I rise to support the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Bill going to the select committee. The bill is long overdue. We need to see some action on spam, as it is definitely a problem. We hope that the select committee and the submitters take the widest possible view as to how to stop those communications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb6ae52a9b25416090daaa2bee1f9164\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Winston Peters lost Tauranga twice. Apologise!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2fb9b4e30204a46859b97c5d32f28be\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Hide; we do appreciate his apology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EEven here in Parliament spam is a real problem, and I would have thought that if those messages could be stopped, then the parliamentary information technology team would have definitely stopped them. I note that the bill takes an opt-in approach, which I hope Internet service providers can use when they take action in response to customer complaints. Here in Parliament we seem to be regular recipients of spam, particularly for certain medicinal products that we would never buy over the Internet\u2014although I note that the previous speaker said that those products would be useful for 1 percent of people. What do we receive? We receive spam for products like Viagra and other related products, human growth hormones, Russian caviar, enhancement patches, computer software, investment alerts, the best imitation Rolex watches, and travel deals\u2014just to mention a few. And they keep coming in every day. They are articles and products that very few people, I would imagine, would want to buy over the Internet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe receive spam letters from people who claim that we have been left, or even that we have won, $1 million\u2014as long as we are willing to invest some money ourselves in order to collect it. The same messages seem to come from many different people. They are unsolicited, totally unwanted, and they must block up the parliamentary server. Those messages appear to be totally impossible to block from our own PCs. If they were, I am sure that someone in the information technology department would have already done that for us. I know that I have looked carefully at Microsoft Outlook to try to find out how to do it. Those messages really are a pain, and spam is a very big problem. Some process does need to be put in place to manage all those unwanted and unnecessary emails. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIt is very surprising that here in Parliament, an environment that is very security-conscious, we find that spam cannot be managed in any way. We can receive hundreds of emails\u2014up to 200 over a weekend, according to one of my colleagues who has counted them\u2014and I can assure senders that those emails are a real pain when people use remote access on their cellphones. Basically, here in Parliament we are drowning in spam, and there is never, ever an unsubscribe option. I was very pleased to see in clause 12 that every commercial electronic message and promotional electronic message that is sent, and that has a New Zealand link, needs to have an unsubscribe facility. It is interesting, too, to see in clause 13 that the onus of proving a defence lies with the person who is actually relying upon that defence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E This is an important issue and one that New Zealand First would like to see resolved. We have no doubt that the select committee will look further into the issue of spam and how to monitor it. We do not know whether the spam messages that we all receive so regularly originate here in New Zealand or elsewhere\u2014over in Germany, according to one of my colleagues. That will prove a real challenge for Internet service providers to monitor. It is an unfortunate fact that this legislation can apply only to messages generated within New Zealand, and we hope that it can apply to all emails sent to an email address here in New Zealand. Otherwise, it will be very easy for the smart operators to arrange for messages to be sent from an overseas Internet service provider and be above the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ESo we are looking forward to this bill going to the select committee, where the committee can scrutinise it very carefully\u2014and I am sure that Mr Henare will be among those members looking at it carefully\u2014and we look forward to the bill returning to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00226aa7a12b3b56436ea17b9eee28639af6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aa7a12b3b56436ea17b9eee28639af6\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to hear from New Zealand First, because that party put out a bit of spam during the election campaign in order to have Winston Peters elected in Tauranga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206d1bd96cc9a444caedd0015bf066c3c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That worked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb1451a33aab461286e3675a47c650b4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: No, it did not work, actually. Despite the spam that Mr Peters put out in Tauranga, he took a pummelling and lost his seat. Being a bad loser, he went off to court, said that he would win, and told the back bench of his party that it was an open and shut case\u2014and he lost big time. Now, New Zealand First is having a whip around to pay Bob Clarkson\u2019s legal expenses. Winston Peters lost Hunua and lost Tauranga twice\u2014the first time he lost with the people of Tauranga, and the second time he lost with the High Court judges who released their judgment today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe ACT party stands opposed to this bill, and we will be voting against it. People dislike spam. Of course, people dislike spam, but the ACT party is prepared to vote only for legislation that actually works, and this bill is feel-good legislation. It might make parliamentarians feel good that they are pretending to deal with spam\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bedcd3244c674cb9bc19c7744d9940ff\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: It feels very good to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d242f5ba6def440485bceb29c3dc6024\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I know that Ms Kedgley feels good. She feels good when she gets into a pig crate on the front steps of Parliament. She feels good about that, but it does not achieve anything. When members come to Parliament they should be passing law that will make a difference, but this law makes no difference, whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229279a342091c4b7f98f50769c9a3bb3a\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: What have you done, Mr Hide?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a719a7119754992862a67efc203a453\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: That is very interesting, is it not? Marian Hobbs, the former failed Minister of Broadcasting, who was nicknamed \u201CBoo Boo\u201D by TVNZ, yells out and asks what I have achieved. I will tell people what I have done. We got an inquiry into TVNZ going, which the Labour Government did not want because it had to cover up Marian Hobbs\u2019 cock-ups and the mess that Steve Maharey made. We got that going, and now we hear about the level of dysfunction in TVNZ. That is just a small achievement that I have made since the election. I would love to know what Marian Hobbs has done in her entire political career other than be destructive. [Interruption] I can see why the people of Wellington Central tried to vote for Mark Blumsky. I just wish they had made a bit more effort and had delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHere is the point: this bill does nothing for spam that comes from overseas. I want members to put up their hands and say where the spam they receive in their in-boxes comes from. I ask Ms Kedgley where it comes from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022657b4d277b4142829a63a48d157c78e6\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Nigeria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f001ccce2d486eb65653d074152c43\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I ask Ms Kedgley what this bill will do to stop that. It will do nothing. I will tell Ms Kedgley how to stop it from coming: she should stop sending Nigerians the money. If she stops sending them the money, they will stop sending her the spam. I know that Green members have a high level of belief in fairies and goblins, but they should stop sending money through to Nigeria and the spam will stop. There is nothing in this bill to address the spam that Ms Kedgley receives in her emails from Nigeria\u2014nothing, whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a099b5221a6d44f59ede217e4f53539f\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Denis loves the Viagra.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022936e4a5cd63d400ab187ded1d4fed8cd\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014I am a bit lost for words, which is the first time for me in this House!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe US CAN-SPAM Act made absolutely no difference. [Interruption] They are feeling nasty, because Winston Peters lost. I can understand that that will make Dr Cullen feel nasty for a day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236cec2eae4884790bc0b3b72200d1fbd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The case was found not proven\u2014read it more carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac5851bd73246d49963b022caa1f37d\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Not proven\u2014that is like Mr Benson-Pope\u2019s case, is it not? Winston Peters went to court to win, but he lost; that is the point. Bob Clarkson, bless his cotton socks, is the MP for Tauranga, and Winston Peters is not. The only reason Winston Peters went with Labour was so that Labour would not stand against him when he had his court case, because that is what Labour promised. That is also why we have a Labour Government. Indeed, Winston Peters lost his court case and Bob Clarkson, bless his cotton socks, is the MP for Tauranga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe US CAN-SPAM Act made no difference, and after the European Commission passed its anti-spam law\u2014Michael Cullen should listen to this\u2014Microsoft\u2019s UK head of information services said: \u201CWe filtered out 2.46 billion spam emails today\u2014just as we have done every day for months.\u201D The ITN news source ZDNet Australia said of Australia\u2019s anti-spam bill\u2014and our bill is modelled on Australia\u2019s, I tell Mr Cunliffe\u2014that the new legislation would probably do little to stop the flood of overseas spam, but that the compliance issues it posed would be a new reality for businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo the members of Parliament voting for this bill are voting for more compliance for no result, because the bill will not stop Sue Kedgley\u2019s Nigerian spam from coming into her in-box. Most of the spam messages we get are from what are called \u201Czombies\u201D\u2014not Labour Party zombies, but machines infected with a virus or worm that are sending out mail without the knowledge of the machines\u2019 owners. In fact, it could be coming out of Sue Kedgley\u2019s machine, and she could be the one prosecuted under this legislation\u2014even though she is not sending the spam. Someone else is sending it from Nigeria, where this legislation has no impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EClaims that this bill is part of an international effort, or of a multi-pronged approach, are hollow. Why? In China there is no anti-spam law and no approach towards dealing with the problem. So we will have legislation that will prove costly to businesses, that could see innocent people prosecuted, and that will not make one bit of difference. As Steve Linford, the founder of the Spamhaus Project, said about such legislation: \u201CThe whole problem with these laws is that they are geared to spammers being honest and respecting laws.\u201D Once again, those who flout the laws, and those who are overseas sending spam from Nigeria and China, will not be affected one bit by what this Parliament does. This is bad law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222726bcf7f66c4d67a776d0466442da45\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a96b4b7dbf74387b5312e7666b1c938\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to hear Tau Henare say that I am right, and I am looking forward to him voting against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd115e4686764de99fd69b4f191b57de\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll fix it in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b2c4756a1664b6f84dafb2324b1bdf9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Tau Henare says that he will fix it in the select committee. I would love to know how that fix will work. Perhaps Mr Henare could enlighten us on how he will fix it in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022483fe4c631954988b2c0e3644856d372\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Come to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0cc86a6cc2b48d5bd2bda465c5b1047\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: He says I have to go along; he is not giving away his trade secrets. Well I tell people that if Mr Tau Henare has a legislative fix for this bill that will see it stopping Sue Kedgley\u2019s spam coming in from Nigeria, the guy is worth every dollar the taxpayer pays him, and I commend him. I said before that he is the best thing ever to come out of New Zealand First, and we are looking forward to having a few more members come out of New Zealand First in the coming weeks and months ahead, because they know that Mr Peters told them a porky when he said that Bob Clarkson had overspent. Mr Peters said: \u201CI am going to win. That\u2019s why I\u2019ll become the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and that\u2019s why we\u2019ll support the Labour Party\u2014the Labour Party will not stand against me, and I will win back the seat.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWell, that ploy failed and so, too, will this legislation. It is bad law and it will not work. The ACT party and its entire caucus\u2014to a man and to a woman\u2014stand against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002267b35a50b8bb40e7b86895c98b23eba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267b35a50b8bb40e7b86895c98b23eba9\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I take a very brief call to say that the Green Party warmly welcomes the bill, defects and all. We would wish, as Rodney Hide has pointed out, that the bill was able to extend its reach beyond our shores, so that we could be mercifully released from the spam that comes from Nigeria and other countries. But the fact that it will not be able to stop spam coming in from Nigeria is not a reason to say that we should not have the bill at all and that we should not try to stop spam that comes from within New Zealand. So we see this bill as the first positive step in trying to rid our lives of spam. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe would love to understand why we cannot extend the provisions of the bill further. Tau Henare suggested that he will seek to amend it at the select committee so that it can extend its reach, and we would welcome that. If we were able to extend the bill\u2019s reach to beyond our shores, I am sure it would be one of the most popular bills that has ever come before Parliament. I am sure it will sail through Parliament, notwithstanding the comments of Rodney Hide. So as far we are concerned, let us bring it on. We will see whether we can amend the bill and extend its reach. Would it not be wonderful if we could rid our lives of the endless, ridiculous emails from Nigeria and elsewhere, including New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI congratulate David Cunliffe on getting the bill to this stage. Let us hope it has a speedy passage through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022caa9ddef026046398dade86e3fa810aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caa9ddef026046398dade86e3fa810aa\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E There is no doubt that something has to be done about email.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e0c26c99a3943d080426c92b464c232\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1dfc117ca4480abb4381fab72f7031\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Unsolicited electronic messages flood into everybody\u2019s in-boxes every day. One thing that we agree on is that we do not want it and we should get rid of it. It accounts for 40 to 75 percent of all email in New Zealand, clogs our in-boxes, and reduces workers\u2019 productivity. Even in the carefully controlled information technology environment in Parliament, we cannot seem to stop it. National supports this bill going to the select committee. We support it as a first step in dealing with spam, but we do not believe that it will have any significant effect on the vast majority of spam, which comes from overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe bill attacks the issue in three separate ways. It bans the sending of commercial spam with a New Zealand link without the prior consent of the recipient. That is the opt-in option. In other words, the receiver must choose to receive the commercial or promotional email. I think that is reasonable. The bill also requires commercial or promotional electronic messages to include accurate identification, details of the sender, and an unsubscribe option. That is reasonable. The bill bans the use and distribution of address-harvesting software, and that is reasonable. However, legitimate businesses already follow those protocols voluntarily, and this bill will do nothing to curtail the illegitimate spammers who have no intention of following our regulations. They will just operate internationally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EWe are all aware of the frustrations of spam\u2014the offers of cheap drugs and software, the invitations to visit pornographic sites, the offers to enhance our sexuality, and the thousand and one scams that tell us we have been miraculously picked to receive competition money, inherit mysterious benefits, or look after money from Nigeria. Oh, that I should be as lucky as that! The amazing thing is that the whole system keeps going, simply because people respond to the emails. Spam is a relatively new phenomenon, and although there is a suite of existing laws that can deal with computer viruses, pornographic, offensive, and misleading material, forgery, and harassment, some legislation is needed to specifically ban unsolicited marketing material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThis legislation will be unable to protect us from the overseas spam, but it does bring us into line with other countries, and it is an important signal that New Zealand is not a soft target for spammers and a place that welcomes their operation. At present the only method of controlling spam is filters. Filters are a hit-and-miss affair; they filter out legitimate emails as regularly as they do spam. Filters are designed to reject messages with \u201Chot\u201D words in them\u2014words like \u201Cfree\u201D or \u201Csex\u201D. Members will all have had experience of their innocent emails disappearing into cyberspace, simply because they have used \u201Chot\u201D words. I do not recommend inviting one\u2019s children by email to see the movie Free Willy or to listen to a sextet playing chamber music. Filters use technology to fight technology, but they reduce the effectiveness of e-communication and often penalise legitimate opt-in communication. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ENobody likes spam. It is out of control internationally, so National will support this bill going to a select committee. We will support it as a necessary evil to support the global fight against spam and to stop New Zealand being seen as a welcoming home for spammers. But we do see the bill as a first step in dealing with spam, and we do not believe that it will have a significant effect on the vast majority of spam, which comes from overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220254b4bda4694d5189edb46788225fe2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 118\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000581\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Commerce Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e9af4fd36044cf0b07c7b74e8843e65\u0022\u003EAdjournment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb6eab46d3c54b32a3ffa1e7cff26003\u0022\u003EAdjournment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00229fd264b6c63543be812424b2e1ccbac4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fd264b6c63543be812424b2e1ccbac4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, before you declare the House adjourned until 14 February, I briefly wish you and all the staff\u2014the Clerk\u2019s Office, the Assistant Speakers, the Deputy Speaker, the Hansard staff, the messengers, the security staff, all our secretaries and other staff, the remainder of the staff who service this building, both Parliamentary Service and Ministerial Services\u2014the very best wishes. I thank them for all the services they have performed for all of us throughout this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI particularly wish all my colleagues in Parliament a merry Christmas and a happy New Year, and I remind them that this is the second-most important part of their lives. For the next few weeks they can enjoy the most important part of their lives, and the public prays that from approximately Christmas Eve, for another couple of weeks they do not hear from any of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022 data-id=\u00227d219153d8ce4be1aa8758d1c68b6770\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d219153d8ce4be1aa8758d1c68b6770\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I echo the comments made by the Leader of the House. I also extend thanks, on behalf of the National Party, to you, Madam Speaker, to the Deputy Speaker and Assistant Speakers, to the Clerk of the House and all of his staff, messengers, security staff, drivers, members of the Parliamentary Library staff\u2014the people throughout this complex who ensured that we operated effectively, and sometimes efficiently, over the year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI also thank the staff of the National Party members of Parliament and those in my own leader\u2019s office. We started this year with a caucus of only 27, which meant that our staff complement was severely strained. We end this year with a lot more members of Parliament, but we are not yet staffed up to that level of caucus numbers. The consequence, of course, is that the staff are under even more pressure now than they were at the beginning of the year. So I would like to extend my sincere thanks to all of them. I also wish them a happy, safe, and restful Christmas period so that we are ready to function effectively in the new year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00227bf84c8609b64e30bac626e41fc51862\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bf84c8609b64e30bac626e41fc51862\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Although I endorse the comments of the Leader of the House, Dr Cullen, and, to a large degree, the leader of the National Party, we would like to offer our compliments to you, Madam Speaker, and to the Deputy Speaker and the Assistant Speakers, for the way you have administered things in this House on a very fair basis. We would like to compliment the Clerk, the Office of the Clerk and all its staff and also wish them well over the Christmas break. We compliment, also, the people who work in this complex: parliamentary staff, secretaries, messengers\u2014who do a very important job and are often overlooked far too often\u2014and thank them for their services and wish them a merry Christmas\u2014not too merry, but an enjoyable Christmas\u2014and to come back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EFinally, on behalf of my leader and my colleagues, who endorse all these sentiments, I wish everybody\u2014all the MPs, in particular\u2014a merry Christmas and a good New Year. May we all come back and remember one little thing: we are here to serve the people of New Zealand, whom we also wish a merry Christmas and a happy time. May we come back and do our job that much better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002264b37744c8f4408f8450bef20c7cbb0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264b37744c8f4408f8450bef20c7cbb0b\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. May I first say how appreciative we have been of you, the first woman Speaker of this House. You have done a magnificent job, often against very great odds. It is a pleasure to have the first woman Speaker in this House. We also extend our gratitude to all of the people\u2014the invisible people, as it were\u2014who make our lives possible and who toil away to enable us to carry out our functions in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI would be less than honest if I did not say that this year has been\u2014in the Queen\u2019s words\u2014an annus horribilis for the Green Party, with the loss of Rod Donald and, of course, with two other MPs also leaving us in the election. However, we have survived. We particularly welcome our colleagues from the M\u0101ori Party into this House. It has been wonderful to have this whole new party, a new dimension, in the House, with what that party has brought to it. We think it is wonderful. We note that the new leader of the Tory Party in England said that he was absolutely committed to ending the Punch and Judy show in Parliament there. It would be our dream that we too could put an end to the Punch and Judy show in this House, and that we could, in the new year, have more cooperative, more collaborative, less acrimonious debate in this House and in some of our select committees and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut in the spirit of Christmas, I would like to wish all of our colleagues the very best Christmas and New Year and hope that we all give our frayed nerves a rest and return much refreshed and in a more Zen state of mind in 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u002261fefa06d3f94954959b13eba6316cad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261fefa06d3f94954959b13eba6316cad\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the M\u0101ori Party I would like to endorse the remarks of Dr Cullen, the Leader of the House; Dr Brash, the leader of the National Party; and other Opposition spokespeople. I welcome the new party, \u201Cthe 2s\u201D, who sit beside us! These sittings have been somewhat of a culture shock for three-quarters of the M\u0101ori Party, but we are adjusting OK. We have made a lot of friends, we are enjoying it, and we hope everyone has a good Christmas. Ng\u0101 manaakitanga o Te Runga Rawa ki a t\u0101tou katoa. May God bless us all. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0e737b127784528903ff055fee72e22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0e737b127784528903ff055fee72e22\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the ACT party and caucus, I thank Michael Cullen for his kind words, and I wish you, Madam Speaker, a very, very merry Christmas and\u2014I think Dr Cullen will allow us to say it\u2014a prosperous New Year, despite Mr Bollard\u2019s concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022042e6af6659040799c22501d53971b2e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: A bit slower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240c79c34a1de4b27ab689aaaee0f64f7\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: A sort of slow, prosperous New Year! For the ACT party, I thank all the people who work at Parliament, make it function, and make MPs\u2019 lives possible. I especially thank the Clerk\u2019s Office, which does a tremendous job for us. The messengers, security staff, and library staff do a tremendous job in helping us. I thank particularly the people at Bellamy\u2019s, who serve us literally all hours of the day and night. I thank all the other people who work in Parliament and look after us MPs, oftentimes when we are grumpy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI would like to wish a merry Christmas to all the ACT staff, and also former staff. I realise that might be somewhat redundant, given that Don Brash has wished all the National Party staff a merry Christmas, but we view those people as just on loan to the National Party and are looking forward to their coming back. I would like to wish the former ACT MPs a very merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut, most important, I would like to use this opportunity to wish all New Zealanders a merry Christmas; a safe holiday period, which means driving carefully, within the law, on the roads; and a prosperous New Year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022326798660a474b91bd9b11becf76d379\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022326798660a474b91bd9b11becf76d379\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I adjourn the House as the first weeks of the forty-eighth Parliament come to a close, I also wish to pay tribute to all the people who contribute to the efficient functioning of the House. Consistent with the brevity of the speeches just made, I shall keep my thanks short. May I, however, acknowledge the hard work of the Deputy Speaker and the Assistant Speakers, particularly during urgency, and the work of those whom no one else mentioned\u2014the interpreters. They probably spend more time on end in this House than anyone else does. Also, it is important to acknowledge the work of the kaum\u0101tua and his wonderful wife, Rose, who work tirelessly for Parliament but are rarely acknowledged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI also extend my thanks to the Clerk of the House, the Deputy Clerk, and all the members of the Clerk\u2019s Office for their professionalism and the administrative skills they have demonstrated over the past year. I include in this thanks also the work of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel and all his staff for drafting legislation, without which there would probably be no purpose for us being here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EIt is also appropriate to thank the General Manager of the Parliamentary Service and all the members of staff of the Parliamentary Service for their professional administration in the servicing of Parliament in its myriad facets. I say a special thanks to the Serjeant-at-Arms and all those who work with him to uphold the traditions and propriety of the Chamber and to welcome the many visitors who come to the parliamentary galleries. They are an essential part of the running of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI offer my sincere thanks too to those who have worked in support of the committees I have chaired. I also say a special thanks to the leaders of the parties of this House, their deputies, and the Leader of the House, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, and the party whips. Without their skills and expertise the House would not run as efficiently as it does. Before I finally acknowledge the efforts of the members of Parliament, I also acknowledge the efforts of the members of the press gallery, who are part of us in one way or another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EFinally, then, I acknowledge all members of Parliament, who despite enormous workloads continue to serve their electorates. I especially acknowledge and welcome the new members of Parliament. I know, as one member has already said, it is a little strange, but coming back in the new year it grows on one. As members go to join their families and friends in the coming break I wish them all well until we meet again in February 2006. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2005121351a01a6c3134416f831df6b62c7dec4f000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 4.20 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"