"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbc4bbfd0a514ae3bac46ac54bc36fb8\u0022\u003ETuesday, 14 March 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc12208c637c4cd28164d7252c91fee7\u0022\u003ETuesday, 14 March 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bdee5d8f931942e391afa3d8313bdb37\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200adb66591e44bef9382740de99c2e51\u0022\u003EIreland\u2014Minister for Community, Rural, and Gaeltacht Affairs of the Dail, Parliament of Ireland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00228de87c7c4d994e2d9f96ac675e956bd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228de87c7c4d994e2d9f96ac675e956bd7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing members that the Hon Eamon O\u2019Cuiv, Minister for Community, Rural, and Gaeltacht Affairs of the Dail, Parliament of Ireland, is within the precincts of this Chamber. I am sure that members would wish that he be welcomed and accorded a seat on the left of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EHon Eamon O\u2019Cuiv, accompanied by the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, entered the Chamber and took a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dd2b775cd1e497fad46fb8793bf6d32\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9078ec6765940029758b42573e0983f\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002215910f59d680438a8f470d289460dfad\u0022\u003EHuman Rights\u2014United States State Department Special Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b2ea9e981844e7bb333c1f8b1b2d619\u0022\u003E1. Dr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: He aha t\u0101na whakautu ki te k\u014Drero i roto i te ripoata o te Tari Matua o Amerika m\u014D ng\u0101 take mana tangata i Aotearoa nei i puta i t\u0113r\u0101 wiki m\u014D te noho rawa kore o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata whenua o Aotearoa nei?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[What will he do in response to the United States State Department report on human rights practices in New Zealand, which reported last week on the disproportionate societal problems for indigenous people occurring in New Zealand?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u002240d71279cc584f39b0a3233472d62a6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240d71279cc584f39b0a3233472d62a6e\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Ka \u0101hei tonu t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga ki te tautoko i ng\u0101 hiahia a te iwi M\u0101ori kia whai hua ai te katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[This Government will continue to support M\u0101ori interests to benefit all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250c5842b7a0c43cc9da86b92739871ef\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te whakaae ia ki te k\u014Drero a te mema P\u0101remata R\u0101rangi Ingoa, ar\u0101, te Minita Mita Ririnui, he h\u014Dh\u0101 te mahi tautoko i te M\u0101ori a he whakaiti kaupapa aua mahi. Ka \u0101hei ia te whakaatu mai ki te Whare ng\u0101 mahi whai hua, papai r\u0101nei, kei te mahia e ng\u0101 mema M\u0101ori o te Roopu Reipa kei te P\u0101remata?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Does he agree with the list member, Minister Mita Ririnui, that advocacy for M\u0101ori is \u201Ctiresome\u201D and part of a \u201Cnegative agenda\u201D, and can he tell the House what the Labour M\u0101ori members are doing in Parliament that is positive?] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215ec8d8978144f7da4b3585f249579ab\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te tautokotia ake an\u014D ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o te H\u014Dnore Mita Ririnui e m\u014Dhio ake an\u014D koe ki te kitenga i roto i te kaha rawe i roto i a t\u0101tou hei whai kaha m\u014D te katoa o te iwi M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[I support the statements made by the Hon Mita Ririnui and the member has seen the wonderful efforts we have made to empower all of M\u0101oridom.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2fcc3c3a2444a00b2079a371c6cd41f\u0022\u003EHon Mahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: He aha ng\u0101 huarahi whakamua m\u014D Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori i raro i t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E[What opportunities are there for M\u0101ori going forward with this Government?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a5097e3a98e4e56bc6146d7d766d623\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te wh\u0101ia e Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori i ng\u0101 hua e puta mai ana i te \u014Dhanga kaha. He nui k\u0113 atu i te 90 \u014Drau ng\u0101 M\u0101ori e whai mahi ana, n\u0101whai an\u014D, ka puta ng\u0101 hua ki te katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[M\u0101ori are reaping the benefits of a strong economy. With over 90 percent of M\u0101ori working now, there are going to be positive flow-on effects for all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61d680a17a34894b29c30e9352e8d4b\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te whakaae ia ki t\u0101 Mita Ririnui e k\u012B ana ko te rahi, ko te tokomaha o ng\u0101 M\u0101ori kei runga penihana, kei r\u014D whare herehere, kua wehe i ng\u0101 kura kore whai tohu, kei te tatauranga mate p\u0113pi me ng\u0101 whare kotahi anake te matua. He kaupapa kore take noa iho r\u0101nei, kei te whakaae r\u0101nei a ia ki t\u0101 te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e k\u012B ana, he kaupapa tino nui t\u0113nei hei whakatutuki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Does he agree with Mita Ririnui that the continuing pattern of disproportionate numbers of M\u0101ori on unemployment and welfare roles, in prison, among school dropouts, in infant mortality statistics, and among single-parent households, is part of a \u201Cwoe is me\u201D agenda, or does he agree with the M\u0101ori that these are important issues that need to be addressed?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240b61b8f3dc04ae0a8c247fdd611e543\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E:\u00A0Kei te tautokotia ake an\u014D o Mita Ririnui engari, me titiro wh\u0101nui te iwi o Aotearoa me ng\u0101 K\u0101wanatanga puta noa i te ao ki ng\u0101 hua kua puta mai i ng\u0101 papai a M\u0101ori. Kei te whakah\u0101ngai t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga i t\u014Dna aronga ki te ekenga taumata o Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori, ko ng\u0101 aronga matua, ko te rawa, ko te m\u0101tauranga, ko te whakamana hoki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[I endorse what Mita Ririnui has stated, but the people of New Zealand and Governments throughout the world should look at the benefits that M\u0101ori have produced. This Government is focusing on raising Maori standards as a primary focus in terms of resources, education, and leadership.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e73a44a3e2494741845613a01621331f\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te tautoko ia i a Mita Ririnui, te Mema P\u0101remata R\u0101rangi Ingoa, e k\u012B ana kua tohua e t\u0113nei K\u0101wana, ko te kore mahi he tino kaupapa hei rewa ake i te t\u016Branga \u0101-tangata, \u0101, k\u0101ti kei te whakaae ia ko te 7.6 \u014Drau M\u0101ori e kore mahi ana. He tohu kia whakarewa ake i te t\u016Branga \u0101-tangata p\u0113r\u0101 i t\u014Dna whakaaro i roto i t\u0101na karere i p\u0101nuihia i r\u014D niupepa? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Does he support list member Mita Ririnui\u2019s statement that this Government has identified unemployment as a major contributor to improving social standards, and does he consider that a 7.6 percent unemployment rate for M\u0101ori leads to improved social standards, as his media release would imply?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230663c368c0c43dba29134b3e9f033bc\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Mihi ake an\u014D wau i t\u014Dku koroua nei e matatau i te reo. I want to mihi to my fellow M\u0101ori colleague, who is expert in the language, but I want to be quite clear that the message gets across in relation to what we are on about with M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee12942fde4844d7be074cc921354360\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: What are you on about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f51d8c2fb994e7780953057f4e7daa8\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: We are on about M\u0101ori moving from dependency to development, and New Zealanders and foreign Governments need to be more focused on the contributions being made by M\u0101ori in this country at this stage. This Government is moving forward to focus on M\u0101ori potential. Our key focus is our rawa, about our resources. Remember, we are big shareholders in Fonterra, we are the biggest fish-owners in the Pacific, and we export the biggest bulk of sheep and cattle, which Mr Smith knows about; m\u0101tauranga\u2014that is about knowledge and skills\u2014and whakamana, which is about leadership, which is lacking over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ea646c81d0e4dbf89072f9dddfe8ae5\u0022\u003EConservation, Minister\u2014Whangamata Marina Decision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aeb34eaadde459285d8da2168174995\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Why did he overrule the decision by Environment Waikato, the agreement with the Department of Conservation, and the decision of the Principal Environment Court Judge in respect of the Whangamata marina?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00228ef0c906ce2d43648e288fd51024158e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ef0c906ce2d43648e288fd51024158e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Under section 119 of the Resource Management Act, passed in 1991, I am required to be the final decision maker on significant coastal developments such as the Whangamata marina proposal. Having looked at all the issues and the Environment Court evidence, I am not satisfied that turning an area of high ecological values into a car-park and dredging a channel through shellfish beds used by local people is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b347a83a5574e9e97395634413f68a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his statements last year to the local government conference: \u201CWe have created a legal environment in which local people make local decisions.\u201D, and \u201CLabour believes in communities making their own decisions.\u201D, or was that just cynical pre-election rhetoric so he could carry on with his dictates over local communities, councils, and the courts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8092d1ae26f43e68e461a0dd22cfee4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do stand by that statement, in the same way that I am sure the member, when he was the Minister of Conservation, and the Rt Hon Simon Upton, when he was the Minister for the Environment, in their 3 years in office worked through this process and although they had the chance to change it, did not do so. They supported it, just as I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f589eb48e8a94ae6b943f9a0b2f6eb49\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the Owen McShane 1998 national review of the Resource Management Act, recommending the removal of the ministerial veto, and also the amendments in 2001 and 2003 to do just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46c169dd2ef43dc9456710547794b64\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What process did the Minister follow to reach his decision to decline the consents needed to build the Whangamata marina?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f59f81eac0d641289e82e33a98531ea1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I considered only those matters that I am permitted to consider under the Resource Management Act. To aid my understanding I also visited the site and met in Whangamata with the Whangamata Marina Society, Environment Waikato, and the local iwi, among others. I was required to disregard those meetings when making my final decision, which was made only on those matters that the law enables me to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e975dce5901402f89b39f350d0047fe\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that he now has a responsibility to explain his decision to the country; if so, when will he do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d61fc3cc160e46b1bdfb945be1130c64\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have been doing a great many interviews on this decision since I made it a week ago. I would be happy to brief the member personally, and, if the opportunity comes to discuss it in the House, I would be delighted to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258be065f19be4141a6ef15d013b54ff3\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen this statement made by the Hon Nick Smith: \u201CThe foreshore should not be privatised by stealth. It should be protected and managed for the benefit of all New Zealanders.\u201D; and who does he think should be the guardian of New Zealand and iwi values under the law when they are threatened by a minority that wishes to establish ecologically damaging, exclusive private ownership of the foreshore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022414cb5e450cd451e9ee9af0f7816533d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I remind members that questions are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ed84cc11114f5da8bcd1ecc0539ca8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It would be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say, perhaps, but the question itself is clearly out of order. The Minister has no responsibility for National Party policy\u2014thank God\u2014or for the articulation of it, and any opportunity to do so given to him in the House is completely inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237f82bececb94bf5866444a9b4a2551f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister was asked whether he was aware of a statement\u2014and he certainly has ministerial responsibility for that\u2014and who he considered should be responsible for the issues raised by the member Jeanette Fitzsimons. He certainly is responsible for those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6144aca87cc430e8942f7d13d599bc1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly true that the Minister is not responsible for the National Party, but the question is in order and the Minister will please address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022583df5c5e883413b9dffbd253e8e99fa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen that statement, and I agree with every word of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dcbd35de7384a3d8ceea9ef007d170c\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does he intend, in the light of the fact that the Rt Hon Winston Peters has been ordered to pay $40,000 towards costs incurred by the new member for Tauranga, Bob Clarkson, to repay the Whangamata Marina Society the $1.3 million it has cost to successfully pursue its case through the Resource Management Act process and the Environment Court; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7ce495d1d14c529661b776a8b1bbe2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237a63e196f94d9589ef18ce68b34a08\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I deliberately framed that question so the Minister could actually tell us why his answer was no, and I do not believe he addressed that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f668189b5b0c444897becb179f0e6028\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister addressed the question. He does not have to explain that, but he did actually address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f38232f7850446ffaeddc2e1266a8d46\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence does the Minister have to back up his claim on Breakfast on TV, and on radio, that people in Whangamata oppose the marina, when a survey of every household by the Waikato Times showed residents supported the marina by over 3 to 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c3814697594da1ab130d4dbfd2d049\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I will shortly seek leave to table all the emails I have received since making my decision 1 week ago. I have received 141 emails\u2014127 in favour, and just 14 opposed. In response to the member\u2019s particular point, I would like to quote very briefly from one written by a National Party member to his local member, Mr John Key. It states: \u201CAttached is an email to my MP\u201D\u2014that is, John Key\u2014\u201Cpointing out that the National Party needs to think a little more in this case. I do not believe that they have considered what can be lost in the name of progress in Whangamata. I have a holiday home there, and I am totally opposed to the marina.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db5fb75b9c3343a4a2e376bb3896e795\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall the statement made by the Prime Minister, in respect of prisoner compensation, that Ministers had to respect decisions of the court; if so, can he explain why under Labour criminals get the benefit of court independence and decisions, but the law-abiding citizens of Whangamata do not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9fa6ce1aef4377a5f2829e1dc23353\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I followed the legal process under the Resource Management Act\u2014something that member should remember, as someone who was recently involved in an illegal Resource Management Act activity in Coromandel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa228849f08148d5be168078ee80e09b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister not use his powers under section 119 of the Act to refer the matter back to the Environment Court or, alternatively, to appeal the issues through to the High Court if he was genuinely concerned about the quality of the decision in the Environment Court\u2014or are his reasons to overrule 27 days of hearings in the Environment Court so minimal as a few emails to his office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad5db3137024eb991e992e861ddf727\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the member of my primary answer, which was that I followed due process. I would like to conclude my answer with another email from Nelson, which states: \u201CWell done on your decision. Many New Zealanders share your view. It\u2019s embarrassing to have my local MP Nick Smith just espousing National Party policy.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2fa7f161a944f3c8b2a2d530478bd8e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister has, under the Act, very specific appeal powers. My question to him asked why he did not use those; he did not address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd95cbb0eaa746d483a7a5853978c445\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister did address the question by explaining the process he, in fact, followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a54b529f6854f2595a4420a59c7e7ea\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House\u2014given the Minister\u2019s note that he made the decision on the basis of emails\u2014to table an email sent 3 days prior to his decision by Bob Harvey, ex-president of the Labour Party, urging fellow surfers to email the Minister so he could make the very decision he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaacd77ea73640aeaa88f6977cc04c27\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the poll survey in the Waikato Times on 11 March, which clearly showed the majority in favour of the Whangamata marina.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df596e2a5a74222bd87fe4f95516211\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that newspaper article. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d66a5324cb4c4b568b43cb70497577e2\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Hauraki Herald of Friday 10 March, where Thames-Coromandel District Mayor Philippa Barriball stated that the decision was a stab in the back for the peninsula and if offered an opportunity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f7187975b314370b3896cf4568fdbb8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that article. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cd51194628543bf907fabdc987302c6\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Mapp report of 10 March, Whangamata Marina: Why the Minister is Wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227785a694b3994842b56720cede0a498e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9aad635f75f4615b646dcfb036d0d16\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document from the Department of Conservation dated 5 February 1997 relating to the Whangamata application. It states in the second paragraph: \u201CThe Department is opposed to the applications. The proposed marina is in an area of salt marsh which will be destroyed.\u201D Written above it in the writing, I believe, of the Minister of that time, Nick Smith, is \u201CSays who?? I note objection is in name of MOC\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bbf0db8baad4ee3a60845e28bc08217\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the contractual agreement between the Department of Conservation and the Whangamata Marina Society that resolved the issues that they were concerned with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8a034027be3478aacfe4e79a0863dd1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a further document from the Department of Conservation that finishes off by being signed by the then Minister, the Hon Nick Smith, who states: \u201CUnhappy on Whangamata issue. Need department intervention again.\u201D Again it indicates Nick Smith\u2019s intervention in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca84855a9cad46f687e1db8e5cf857bb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b70cd97907467ca91df851ba4b26b8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How many days did the Minister spend considering evidence and submissions on this matter; if it was less than the 27 days of hearings in the Environment Court, why is he so arrogant as to assume that that court got it wrong, rather than him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225863986cc74744b6ba3996c4a69419b5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245881c60825949888edda2bbd18aaeed\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022119a859732df4f11b270bbce502e3c7a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Normally the documents are tabled at the end of the question. That is of some assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269dfe904f454404e958f8b8262be0d08\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I spent a considerable amount of time considering the evidence on this case; in fact, I approached the marina company to ask for an extension of time in order to consider it longer. I believe I followed the process correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299329526eeaa48e9bb756bf39ac33fb8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: As is consistent with the Standing Orders, I seek leave for the Resource Management (Restricted Coastal Activities) Amendment Bill in my name, which is lodged with the Clerk\u2019s Office, to be able to take priority in the ballot and so be introduced and considered on the next members\u2019 day after tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220165c885e046463b9a5dd7dfcfc24d88\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that action. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad4cb10a430d4e80bb846228106f2c79\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d99b467ed0c49eb823a4ad4dd57106b\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Has the Minister received any reports about ongoing improvements to the NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7328d5dc66e47cab6bdd1dbecddfb5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7328d5dc66e47cab6bdd1dbecddfb5d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Following a successful exam round in 2005\u2014thanks, in particular, to the hard work of thousands of teachers\u2014the Ministry of Education has begun work on further improvements for 2006. As part of that work, today a survey is being sent to 20,000 teachers on the achievement standards and methods of assessment for over 30 subjects. That will result in improvements in achievement standards for the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) and performance standards for scholarship. Since the beginning of the implementation of NCEA teachers have been involved in its design, and they will continue to be so involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e83f1ecc8bc4a59a554a36dca205151\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What further professional development will be occurring around NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6bc7ee580134088905aaace09637eb0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2019s school relationship managers are holding regional seminars in the coming months for teachers to discuss the exam season just past and what improvements can be made. Any teacher who wishes to attend those seminars can do so, including any person who has sent an anonymous email to an Opposition MP. What will not be happening is the seminar proposed in this House on 15 February for Mr Bill English\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0616e6e37134bc38cb79dbb7a7f0838\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: By you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b400a176f764938b117f96e7a584c1b\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014by myself. Immediately following that suggestion, Mr English continued to misrepresent and spread misinformation about NCEA. In particular, he said that results were being scaled and massaged, and he continued to attack the integrity of the staff of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. Mr McCully, in his own newsletter, said he would also continue his attacks on the personal integrity of the acting chief executive, Karen Sewell. That is bad faith, that is not a fair hearing, that is prejudice\u2014no seminar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84f39eccb0e4dc8bf8bfae462075921\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: How does the percentage of level 1 NCEA candidates achieving the minimum standards of literacy and numeracy, as a result of the 2005 assessments, compare to the percentage of candidates achieving such minimum standards in previous years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f4269bf60a64f289b976167add55236\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the figures here with me, but I can get them for the member. I can say to members of the House that for the first time NCEA is offering New Zealanders standards in literacy and numeracy that were not there historically. We are now able to measure progress in that area, and we all should applaud that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022101e0fea9d054cd7932288c09a3b0f18\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What support has the Minister seen expressed for NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2380a3e77f84c448c145bba1241ca33\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: There has been unanimous support from across the education sector for NCEA. The one remaining critic is Bill English, who constantly undermines the confidence of NCEA, to the point that Stuart Middleton, writing in the New Zealand Education Review, wrote the following: \u201CPoor Bill only knows the negative and even though he could offer commentary that contributed to discussion and to the progress of ideas, he prefers to be the face of the declinologists and be negative.\u201D Mr Middleton also said that we have a world-class education sector. What we need to do is debate how to make it better, not try to drag it down, as Mr English constantly does. I seek leave to table two documents. The first is my letter to Mr English that explains why his bad faith, prejudice, and prejudgment of those matters\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795266d81deb4894bbdb90b1018b5bbe\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022086580d0d78f4c3ca99e8a2f6b01a14e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member has every right to seek leave to table his silly letter, but he is not allowed to use epithets in the course of doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022462d88db3b9d4a6ebfe92c0d32d29c63\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The second document, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ae4ad36b90477f9c2f6bc2e046f032\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry, would you please just withdraw. The member has taken objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220db8060d061b41c58427e16352894919\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e96a72371c47af90efbe4f25179281\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Leave is sought to table that letter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd2617080bc4b6383dda610a9ddc3d7\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a second document. The document is from\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022494b59908d75435b9bb709e5b174053b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order; it is heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265e85ac391e34d329647854cc653c3a9\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The document is from the New Zealand Education Review. It is an article by Stuart Middleton, in which he explains that Mr English is the sole remaining critic: he is a person who is negative and should get on and be constructive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220468c843e0c4991980998cbb041d573\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022420344f9d14847d48b461d069a45bb65\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Again, the member has a right to ask Parliament to table that material, but the article does not state what Mr Maharey says, and, in any case, he is not allowed to read out what it states. He is allowed only to ask to table the document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a740924ae840329bb61cae9359ba80\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that contribution. I hope all members take note of it, and that when they are tabling documents, they do it very briefly. I shall take that in future as permission to cut people short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022823194a534144463bebd0abf0a0a8878\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The point here is that the member misrepresented what is in that document, and, surely, you will not allow that under any circumstances. What Mr Maharey said the document reads is actually not correct, and he should not be allowed to misrepresent the contents of the document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b31af65942494378b62da06c08a37b8e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can, if the member would like me to, read out the part so that we are very clear about the criticisms made of the negativity of Mr English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290169717ace8429691dce9c1adb27214\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest we just table the document, then we can all read it and make up our own minds\u2014if the House agrees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd8ff4a9fb8f48359ce2eef9eb954fad\u0022\u003EChild, Youth and Family Services, Department\u2014Performance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca406b7901714224a854c43cb2491fcf\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF): Does she stand by her evidence to the Social Services Committee, on 23 June 2005, that Child, Youth and Family Services is \u201Cmoving into a phase of what I describe as performance excellence, and that is not a term I would use lightly\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdb04e24f86e4945bf654149acadd8be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdb04e24f86e4945bf654149acadd8be\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; because Child, Youth and Family Services has shown significant improvements in performance in an environment of greatly increased workload and a deliberately created atmosphere of mistrust\u2014created deliberately by the National Party at the expense of hard-working social workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6632cff3f0248d3ae947f8f35bad6f1\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Which is correct: that Child, Youth and Family Services has a \u201Cculture of excellence\u201D, as described in its 2005-06 statement of intent, or that it has a \u201Cculture of \u2018resistance\u2019 \u201D, as described in a Cabinet paper released last week\u2014which one is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdb46a0ef044a80adb32002840fad3c\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: From the perspective of the authors, both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022281c90fab9a4469898a950d5d4563a56\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Would\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba5397cf88d14443a982f7cffbf8943f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Questions are to be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9f21205ccfb4cb49852c50ddfc6f0bc\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister outline Child, Youth and Family Services\u2019 key performance achievements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d4d735f442449888b1751f972575b2\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The department has reduced the number of unallocated cases dramatically, despite a significant increase in notifications. Children are seen more quickly, and determinations of abuse and neglect are made more quickly. The number of Child, Youth and Family Services social workers has increased significantly under the Labour-led Government, and increasing numbers are being registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba119692d6fd4ca48190c9bf2f5665f3\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister plan to continue with the differential intake model; if so, why has it sat on the legislative agenda for the past 2 years, does that indicate the true feelings of the Government towards vulnerable children in New Zealand, and where is the commitment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad8461044c364c98a48361998becc81a\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part, \u201CYes\u201D, and the pilots are proceeding. There is no need for legislation in order for that to be rolled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218330e219ebd4d3e825469c7a8aef1fd\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement made before the election that the \u201Cproductivity, the timeliness, and the service quality improvements are quite extraordinary\u201D, in light of the recent State Services Commission\u2019s damning report, which states: \u201CDespite the change programmes initiated from the reviews, CYF still faces a number of problems including a lack of a system wide approach to managing business process, poor management and performance information; weak youth justice capability; insufficient policy co-ordination.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db88197a96b84a6a8c5173062fbff355\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. In my view the points that the member raises are an inevitable consequence of the National Party\u2019s obsession with policy and operational separation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284b280577a3c403cabf808d8be033587\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility will she shoulder for the continued failures of Child, Youth and Family Services, in light of the statement she made to the select committee last year: \u201CSo, as Minister, I have ensured that the department has very clear expectations of the outcomes and functions that Government requires it to perform.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cbf2a708fb941e1bf9513e03daa3c40\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly do retain my accountability for the actions of the department. That is why, if the member was concentrating at the select committee meeting to which she referred, she would recall that, for the first time, every performance indicator had been met by the department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f5b9df944de4d1cbac1991695c40cb0\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many Child, Youth and Family Services staff will be eligible for redundancy payments with the merger scheme, or does this Minister not know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adc259d24196427a99584502c482fa24\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As many as are made redundant and have redundancy provisions in their employment agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1423f56d29c4b4f963e0024597be75b\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How much will her failed tenure as the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF) cost New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable children while she sits there trying to blame someone else for her mess?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298647e661b5a464c9addd1cf571c0975\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: In my view I do not have a failed tenure. Nor do I misrepresent the facts of the situation at the expense of departmental staff, as that member did when she took an answer that I had given her about tortious claims against departmental staff and misrepresented it in a press statement as being about the torture of children. That is how lazy and misrepresenting that member is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022108a5a0eaf434f8bbe6dd9d286f2d18f\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table the report that Ruth Dyson released last week about the appalling situation in Child, Youth and Family Services under her tenure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207f0b9278d2147aaa3d134b7a283693e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that report. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e56d592843e44d4a9c67221e285528d3\u0022\u003EGangs, Youth\u2014South Auckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e0f63d85884921a35496352641bf06\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What actions have police taken to address the problem of youth gangs in the South Auckland area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022de5b13d3decc45e1bc105e48ab5b5249\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de5b13d3decc45e1bc105e48ab5b5249\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E In the last few months the police have been working closely with the South Auckland community, other Government agencies\u2014especially the Ministry of Social Development\u2014and non-governmental organisations on strategies focused on enforcement, community engagement, and prevention. There has been a reduction in all forms of youth gang activity across the region, with no notable incidents being recorded since this process was put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae334ad4bd3482893ea586b3fc4fbe9\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What meetings has the Minister held recently to discuss gang issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab359ebf81084bbe84106ee0ff70d3b8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Last week I held meetings with the Wanganui police and Wanganui Mayor, Michael Laws, to discuss a recent gang issue in that city. Mr Laws is very supportive of the rapid response of police to the recent problems, and he is also very keen to work with the police and the Government to prevent future problems from arising. He realises that the police cannot do it all on their own. To quote Mr Laws: \u201CWith more police, tougher by-laws, and the strengthened Proceeds of Crime Act, there is light at the end of the tunnel.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c1df3083694992b106358a25bae1fd\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with New Zealand First when it says that the Government should pass legislation to outlaw gangs; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a7e4cea1e0148ff9eb3d69ce5dc00eb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, because I do not believe it is feasible or possible to outlaw them. What we can do is ensure that they have the least possible impact on the community by good policing, community involvement, and the sorts of strategies that have been put in place. But to say that if we outlaw them by law, that will happen, is, I think, dreaming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233dc3c3329a74c05ab54c0af397023f3\u0022\u003ETransmission Gully\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e214fe45eaf445d799e301c70d62874c\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What is the Government\u2019s assessment of the findings of the Greater Wellington Regional Council/Transit New Zealand Hearing Sub-committee in favour of Transmission Gully, and will he make the funding available to ensure that Transmission Gully will be built?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed9208df5144f0b88532b27477022a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed9208df5144f0b88532b27477022a8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E In addition to more than doubling the annual funding for State highway construction since 1999, the Government has committed to making an extra $405 million available for the western ring route once the Wellington region has decided on its preferred option. I welcome the subcommittee\u2019s report as a significant step forward in resolving this important regional issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b668db4acc146e6895e6219decb07c8\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What impact will the $685 million shortfall already identified in Transit\u2019s 10-year plan have on the Government\u2019s commitment to building Transmission Gully?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228389eb3fcf6b47638523f88a18a88964\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: None, because, as the Minister of Finance has already indicated, the Government intends to make good that shortfall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcfeccdc2232483ba4b30ff820a383a7\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps in making a final decision about Transmission Gully?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae8d43481439425a888440d268b794cc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is now for the regional land transport committee to consider the proposed western corridor plan and the impact it may have on other projects. This will then be considered by the Wellington Regional Council and, as appropriate, be incorporated into its regional land transport strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1faaeec8511428c8756065f27d8613f\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with Transit saying that it has obtained the necessary designation and purchased most of the land to build Transmission Gully and that therefore Transmission Gully is an easier build than Centennial Highway; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a9dad416e745dda5ef2d3faf7006c8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am considering the proposed plan, including the alternatives that are traversed into it, and I have asked the Ministry of Transport to provide me with advice on its implications, including the matters that the member raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e34aa7223149ed8729a1bd689d1a5c\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the proposed western corridor plan, which commits 92 percent of funding to roading over the next 20 years and a pitiful 8 percent to public transport, and which will increase congestion, carbon emissions, urban sprawl, and our dependence on oil, is consistent with the New Zealand Transport Strategy; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285a0285d6a1c4ffa8493c5a75db709f4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that issues such as those will be the subject of advice to me from the ministry, but I would note that in addition to the $405 million that the Government has made available for the western ring route, the Government has committed an additional $480 million in addition to the increases in baseline spending on State highway construction and public transport, and a considerable portion of the $480 million extra funding for the Wellington region can go towards public transport initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e33b9fa6f824cfc98e93617268051eb\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Hon Marian Hobbs when she was reporting on behalf of the Wellington Labour caucus last week that the talking should stop and the construction begin; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0f17c77e4be4236bd72c1a08bbabd96\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do agree that we need to get to finality as to which option is chosen, be it the coastal route or Transmission Gully. The Government has already done its bit by promising that it will make $405 million available to the option that is chosen by the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f72f63b4e1a2449ab481933f27bbaca8\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister commit funding to the construction of the entire route of Transmission Gully that 90 percent of Kapiti and Horowhenua written submissions support; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022591f92f4acb74a039a0049027f5199a0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in earlier answers, in addition to doubling the amount of money made available for State highway construction, in addition to $480 million for roading and public transport, the Government has already promised to make an extra $405 million available to the region for the construction of the western corridor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022137fe74abe7a45a2bfed47278a4477fc\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister also agree with the Minister of Local Government, who said last year at the local government conference that: \u201CLabour believes the people in New Zealand like to make their own decisions about their local community,\u201D and does this mean that he will more than take into account the views of the 82 percent of the 6,000-plus submitters who were in support of Transmission Gully?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022592e14da48a047e9b1b72781351b806c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I have already said, we do welcome the completion of the latest stage of the decision as to where the route should run. But I repeat that the Government, in addition to doubling State highway funding and in addition to commiting $480 million over and above that for local highways and local public transport, has promised $405 million as its contribution to the cost of the western corridor link.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a360b53eff7044a6b700c8d983b91303\u0022\u003ETransmission Gully\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d5aca2771464a7da8752b14af27cee7\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Can he confirm that, in accordance with the provisions of the confidence and supply agreement between United Future and the Labour-led Government, and following the unequivocal recommendation in the recently released report of the Greater Wellington Regional Council/Transit New Zealand Hearing Subcommittee to proceed with the construction of a full four-laned Transmission Gully motorway instead of the proposed Coastal Expressway, central Government funding, which is available for the Wellington regional roading programme, will be able to be used to fund the Transmission Gully motorway option?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e269587a1d7d440ab9ad75fb3ea131cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e269587a1d7d440ab9ad75fb3ea131cf\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c720e8b00aa94427bf65aba6fd88ec8b\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the consultation process undertaken by the hearing subcommittee, which resulted in \u201Can unprecedented community response of 6,017 submissions\u201D\u201496 percent of which opposed the proposed coastal route and 82 percent of which supported the Transmission Gully motorway option\u2014was so comprehensively thorough that it would be inconceivable for local and central government authorities to ignore the overwhelming public call for the funding and construction of the Transmission Gully motorway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d69d35fca0f489d82801b8692554888\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is fair to say that it would be difficult for any government\u2014central or local\u2014to ignore the weight of public opinion that supported the proposed route.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fcdb18b1eee4514bd89198f6c0e8b58\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that no legal reason exists to stop the Transmission Gully motorway being funded over 20 years and that no law change would be required to achieve that, even though the motorway could be built substantially within the next 8 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd83afe9d9ac48cfbc1bdc973fd81a0b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that no legal obstacles exist to stop the funding of Transmission Gully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9164368f12e40aa89361da279c3162b\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister intend to treat equally the confidence and supply arrangements with both United Future and New Zealand First, given that both have implied roading commitments; if so, does the progression of the Tauranga Harbour Bridge under the confidence and supply arrangement with New Zealand First mean that now that Transmission Gully has been endorsed as the preferred option, it will also get the green light?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022051cf0c0dbce4b82a28f9fb20cfec39a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The subcommittee has made that recommendation, and the Wellington Regional Council and others have yet to make their final decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221765b53fc8fa485b8e01998e0a4ce3a4\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any advice from officials or elsewhere as to why it is that, contrary to public opinion in the region and contrary to the findings of both the hearing subcommittee and yesterday\u2019s meeting of the regional land transport committee, the Mayor of Wellington seems determined to go out on a course of one and oppose what 82 percent of people in the region support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac42fe0500594beead033552d7634c36\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have received no advice on that. But clearly there is still room for discussion and controversy surrounding the issue, particularly given that although the route is now supported widely and has been modified in terms of the cross-connections, there are still issues around supposed access to Wellington, which is not improved by Transmission Gully itself. One still has come through the Ngauranga Gorge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022898dfbe15731440e9ba9a037c5b7a7c4\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Government support the reintroduction of the Hon Peter Dunne\u2019s 2001 Construction of Transmission Gully Highway Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5c699a557f44277af6ff4fb5762aad8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not believe in special-purpose legislation of that sort. I am confident that this Government will deliver significant improvements in the western corridor proposals, unlike the previous Government, which, when it left office, was building one-tenth of the roads in Auckland that we are building at the present time. We are ahead of target in respect of State Highway 20 and the Albany to P\u016Bhoi realignment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a9644341bde429fbd6d72d57e2990cd\u0022\u003EElective Surgery\u2014Discharges\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022433057bb76844b53b32b4c9f2a016597\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What is the number of individuals discharged from elective surgery in the 2001 calendar year, and how many individuals were discharged from elective surgery in the 2005 calendar year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002202aa664653e94bb4b1c07ab3f565761a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202aa664653e94bb4b1c07ab3f565761a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In 2001 about 98,000 people were discharged, and in 2005 about 96,000 people were discharged. If the member, however, had asked about case-weighted discharges, the answer would have shown a 9 percent increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022483709b09a5646218d7c76e7c64f4aa6\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If fewer New Zealanders are getting elective surgery, and the surgery they are getting is more serious, does that not reveal how much sicker people in this country have to be to get elective surgery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b73dbf181f824e68953db8858f668a9a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it does not. I remind the member that the best way to measure the unmet need would be to look at those people who cross the treatment threshold but do not receive surgery\u2014and that figure is falling very quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b99bebae411243e69af094097ac42334\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister confident that the overall number of elective procedures has increased under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233f2b7ab399347ff967bbe18c60b4abd\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because we know that many thousands of elective procedures are now carried out in out-patient settings. If we collected data on out-patient surgery, it would be clear that more people are getting the operations they need compared with 6 years ago. The Ministry of Health will begin that national collection of data from 1 July. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c17f802114d495d840489a63e38d5ab\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his reported statement that imperfect data is behind the drop in elective surgery; and is the data imperfect because his ministry has reduced the number of exit categories in the national booking reporting system from 10 to four, so that the numbers of people dying while on waiting lists can be hidden\u2014another good measure of how sick our public health system has become under Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241039f8071cc47799725fc364c4f0709\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that the change to the categories\u2014from memory, the number has gone from nine to four or five\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb225bc0d8654493a408c059f8be36f8\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: 10 to four.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f10d2a44e01446ca9ad05a5f08b9a9f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u201410 to four\u2014is absolutely unrelated to the very substantial societal shift that is going on whereby more and more people have surgical procedures as out-patients or, indeed, in primary health-care settings. The out-patients data will be collected nationally from 1 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8aea88c26cf4011af2a394c4f903fb0\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If everything is fine with elective surgery, why did the Government write to the district health boards last year to say that it was concerned about, and disappointed in, their performance in elective surgery, and that it was calling in the ministry to deal with the problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f50ce8ba33a6438d8f0e00494557d7f3\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is not satisfied with elective services; it is just that they are nowhere near as bad as the member\u2014who wishes to keep playing with numbers\u2014would have us believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ec14e78a634535a31b84bcade98e7c\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What mark out of 10 would the Minister give elective services in this country\u2014would it be the 5\u00BD he gave earlier on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c55c0417ea46b3bbd15f6a236d4d40\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The number of 5\u00BD is always the right number to give most questions on the health system. The reason is this: this health system deserves a pass mark. It is not a system that should get zero, as National would give it when it is in Opposition, or 10, as National would give it when it is in Government. The reason it should not be more than 5\u00BD is that this Government does not believe that our health system could ever be considered ideal or good enough. We are continually seeking improvement; we never lack ambition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4116deac6e04e4da35f1a519bbb0f61\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister of Health tell New Zealand Doctor magazine on 8 February that the health portfolio is \u201Ca very big sandpit, and I haven\u2019t worked out where the quicksands are just yet. I don\u2019t want to say I\u2019m revelling in it, because I\u2019m not. I\u2019m still anxious about my level of knowledge and expertise not being up to scratch.\u201D; and was that an admission that he is not really up to solving the waiting list crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fb219d6ba264dfd9fab592278d19426\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was an admission that when taking on one of the largest portfolios in Government, one should take some time before asserting that one knows what one is talking about. That is, unfortunately, not the behaviour of certain National Party spokespeople on health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224307ab50a6544de7b4fb159a6fa2d620\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: In admitting that the Government does not know how much elective surgery is provided in this country, what confidence can he have in the system; despite the Government shovelling hundreds of millions of extra dollars into the health system, fewer New Zealanders are getting the elective surgery they need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244071108507a4dcdb8955bf34748c7cf\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the assertion in the last part of the member\u2019s question. I am happy to remind the member of what has been achieved in the last 6 years: new public hospitals have been built, from Kait\u0101ia to Invercargill; we are lowering the costs of doctors\u2019 visits for all New Zealanders; we have delivered fair pay for district health board nurses; and we have put communities back in charge of how health money is spent in their towns and cities. These are the sorts of things that can be done only by a Government that does not put reckless tax cuts ahead of the well-being of New Zealand families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dadeea02402404da82edfade7ca05c0\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a couple of documents. The first is a letter from the Minister of Health for the last 6 years, to district health board chairmen, berating them for their performance in elective surgery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9de63a858ed4e889472aad1dd956bf6\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: The second document I seek to table shows that fewer New Zealanders receive elective surgery today than was the case 5 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bc212ad9a08456baa20b514acfaf41c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0a8923365454b7aa20fcd651f4b1ef6\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article in which Mr Hodgson expresses doubts about his suitability for the health portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4036f05fcd241fd9f684d115f0bb35e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022772607c45a7f4b148afe2ca34d14754f\u0022\u003ECitizens\u2019 Initiated Referendum\u2014House of Representatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022169bdc4cfd5c430ea23b4bf14bb9ce53\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What has been the Government\u2019s response to the result of the 1999 citizens\u2019 initiated referendum regarding the size of the House of Representatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00229f915d1831fa4604904fb0073ad4804a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f915d1831fa4604904fb0073ad4804a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The Government referred this issue to the MMP Review Committee that was established in April 2000 to undertake a review of MMP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7c428468a0c42aa82eed919c611daef\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that fewer than 54 percent of electors in 1993 voted for a change of the electoral system, whereas in 1999 over 81 percent voted to reduce the number of MPs, and will the Government support my member\u2019s bill to a select committee to find out whether public opinion on this matter is as clear as it was in 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f39a57569c74a93a5cb21901feeea4a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member compares apples with pears\u2014a binding referendum with a non-binding referendum\u2014and draws a lot of assumptions from those pieces of information. But I regret to inform the member that no, the Government will not be supporting the member\u2019s bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac628e696c874817b2dcc34d17c149f3\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Will his Government consider holding another referendum on this issue if it is consigned to the fact that it will not allow my bill to reach a select committee so that the public can actually have their say on this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221383cb436c9a4927948f30350709d0f2\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. We need to be a bit clear here. As you have said in the past, people wear different hats at different times. In asking whether Mr Burton\u2019s Government will be supporting the member\u2019s bill, as the member has, is she implying in some way that she has nothing to do with this Government? We know, in fact, that, of course, New Zealand First is very much a part of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de908fad1bb4adab0775036808c33e5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d33d0f25a44ec1bbd57988424c262b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fair question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236eb885a08484249847e560e547c2e9f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am sorry, that is not a point of order. Does the member wish to make another point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c85d9833d744d3855ab7e520e4bf8b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think you should ask that the question be put in a clearer fashion, because to imply that New Zealand First has nothing to do with the Government is quite wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294ca186be9664547bb38bd8287f76d50\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I have to make the point to the member who raised the point of order that Barbara Stewart, the member who asked the question, is not a member of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc494f39a8df423bb0a064678dd8aee5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb0743a8d9143ddbcc3e88bf00be8c0\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell the member that there is no such proposal on the Government\u2019s current work programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022715c35bbe1144b4b97107cb375bd965d\u0022\u003ECorrections, Department\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c365c7dbf7c0490f936184f7224d534c\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he have confidence in his department; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00227328d191744947bbb2ddfc20b1deeb35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227328d191744947bbb2ddfc20b1deeb35\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, although there is always room for improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228465bdf46b2a45fb9ad2d8a60bfbad4d\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How is it that, despite spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on designers and architects, according to the final business case for the regional prison build it only occurred to the Department of Corrections when asking for yet more money that: \u201CIt is now evident that prison developments are atypical, and, for example, use far more steel fabrication than a similar commercial building.\u201D, and how could they get it so wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dfbcb5001f146339d287baedeb83972\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: These issues will be addressed by the independent reviews being undertaken by the State Services Commission and Treasury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82b7ef7ad2b4b359b4e1e63327458ec\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that his department did not realise that a prison used more steel fabrication than other commercial buildings, as mentioned in the business case; if not, what exactly does it take for this Minister to be concerned about the goings-on in his own department?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d530bd8e7b449499fd34df537c74ad\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, we have these reviews under way. The construction of prisons has been like many other projects around the country\u2014because of a very buoyant economy, there have been many pressures on the costs of such things as steel, concrete, and tradespeople.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df29db1099244218240f132163234ea\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Was he surprised, then, to learn that his department had blown its building budget and that one of the reasons for this, contained in the document just mentioned, was that legislation enacted by his own Government raised costs in areas such as the building code and the Holidays Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e5fc7f31f6f406fa7c20a0d19a3690b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I was not surprised. However, quantification of these issues will no doubt be identified by the reviews.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228467360c11fc4d4c9c8aa64f3db378cb\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Which is correct, the statement in the report to the Cabinet Business Committee that: \u201CThe department is confident that no further requests for funding will be required.\u201D, or the final business case report, which states: \u201CUntil such time as the CWAs are established, the department will not have the ability to cap the forecast completion costs.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb9662ce69ff4b25b76606320a46f91e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The collaborative working arrangements are now in place, and I have been given an assurance that there will be no further requirement for money to complete these projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022441382538d714b208cd9ef5305922e6a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, could I just point out to you that my supplementary question is in line with the primary question, although when you first listen to it, it is definitely not in line with the line of questioning being pursued by Mr Power. How many foreign students and foreign visitors are currently serving sentences for drug smuggling, drug dealing, murder, extortion, fraud, theft, and forgery, and does he have confidence in the Department of Corrections\u2019 future forecasts in terms of increased numbers in the foreign inmate category?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220263f83654824b13a7f097fad2eacbf9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a long bow, but if the Minister would like to attempt to address it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42f288f68274688aa6e74e21f7f53d1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Too many. I must acknowledge the member\u2019s question. It is a very reasonable one, and I commit to him to find the answer. Should he put it down on paper, I will get the complete and accurate answer to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec15dcd12344793ac78dc11e6aa3ebc\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Department of Corrections\u2019 final business case, dated 15 December 2005, where it became evident that prison developments were atypical and used far more steel fabrication than similar commercial buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d27500b4ba9f4077bb9a1330a83ca23d\u0022\u003ECartagena Protocol on Biosafety\u2014Brazil Meeting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264cbdd40907d4bce87a3accdab7db7fe\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Will New Zealand support the right of States to have full information about any genetically engineered organisms traded across their boundaries, at the third meeting of the parties to the Cartagena Protocol taking place in Brazil this week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022467b3b6439154851899e87939c52e9db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022467b3b6439154851899e87939c52e9db\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Minister of Foreign Affairs): \u003C/span\u003ENew Zealand supports meaningful and informative labelling of GMOs. We think it is important to have simple, practical, workable, and implementable documentation requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229add107830944db784a6bdd168a80fa5\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying, then, that New Zealand is now moving away from its former position that living, genetically engineered organisms being traded for use in food, feed, or processing should be labelled with the words \u201Cmay contain GMOs\u201D, which was against the wishes of the majority of parties to the convention, which desired that the labels would state \u201Cdoes contain GMOs\u201D, and can we take it that New Zealand will no longer block consensus on that issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250079143052848e586a004acf777f802\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, we are not changing our position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224185af7c75054a61bf6296511d331beb\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Why will New Zealand not support the inclusion of adventitious presence as a trigger for documentation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bbc3f4d37b040e6b854b294971f4b02\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Because that would mean that all normal or conventional agricultural shipments, even of organics, would have to be labelled \u201Cmay contain living, modified organisms\u201D because of the remote possibility they might have come into contact with living, modified organisms. That clearly would also be a potential non-tariff barrier for food-importing countries to use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25d06e4c3e541e79fa8862b02737880\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister justify New Zealand\u2019s position of requiring full disclosure of GE crops at our own borders while denying developing countries, which may not have the financial or human resources to test for themselves, the protection of an international disclosure regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c9ef048c68444a92a2c7d856db96ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government does not deny countries that kind of access to a regime. We are fully in support of the Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety. What we do not accept is that that protocol means what some people claim it means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221788dac2b96a4370a6d5dd59ac98d1b8\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Will he refute the allegation made by other parties to the convention that New Zealand is acting as a stalking horse for the United States\u2014which is not a party to the convention\u2014by doing what his officials have so far refused to do and telling this House, and the New Zealand public, now the reason for our position that GMOs traded across the border do not need to be labelled to state that they do contain GMOs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214ad44896a5e45ec9ce15216c9f538fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: This Government does not act as a stalking horse for the United States in any matter at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a77412418be14d05a965c9a5df9012cf\u0022\u003EDog Control\u2014Microchipping\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022133a5ef9120547a399678d75f3efdadd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Local Government: Does she stand by her comments reported in the Timaru Herald on 17 February 2006 that the Government will not budge on section 36 of the Dog Control Act 1996 which will require newly registered dogs to be microchipped from July 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00226600f978b49c444bbda117df6d7b2746\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226600f978b49c444bbda117df6d7b2746\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Associate Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by my statement reported in the Timaru Herald: \u201CResponsible dog ownership is where we want to get to and the success of microchipping as a nationwide system for dog identification and control depends on ensuring as many dogs as possible are microchipped.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225226f263e98541eaaa9a3c5c7cdedf42\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that, on the very same day, the Minister of Agriculture, Jim Anderton, was reported in the Manawatu Standard as being \u201Csympathetic\u201D to exempting farm working dogs, and which Minister are farmers expected to believe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8af1fe4b97247debee5cb952ee510cf\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Agriculture is a conscientious Minister. We are in the early phases of implementing the microchipping system. I look forward to discussing with the Minister any issues that he may have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ca8c3c717f44cb7bd8f549986b4e9c7\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any other views on microchipping?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a425437b4e44bf6853d69940519f0c1\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am. I am aware that both the New Zealand Veterinary Association and the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals publicly support the introduction of microchipping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226bbe11e3e1341ce82ee7a2cd8615263\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the \u201Cpractical and pragmatic solution\u201D that the Minister of Agriculture is apparently working on, as quoted in the Manawatu Standard on 7 March this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cbf8c9e1d4a477a855342ba38f694f9\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Colleagues will be concerned in terms of ensuring that there is positive implementation of microchipping, and we want to achieve one law for all dogs. We need to ensure that the balance of interest in making this decision is between responsible dog ownership and public safety. I say again: one law for all dogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068d4042f9a84c67923c5133059f727b\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Has she or the Minister of Local Government received any notification from councils that they will not comply with compulsory microchipping; if so, which councils have made such representation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf5241ec2074dd287f0efaa11b1ec56\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I, like the member, have seen reports in a number of newspaper articles, but I would be very concerned if any member in this Parliament supported a number of calls for civil disobedience, because that would send a very bad signal to, and set a bad precedent for, a number of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255110a085f854146ad07829b9fc29adb\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the Tararua District Council announced that it hoped the Government would not notice that it would not comply with the dog microchipping regulations, and then, in order to make sure we did not notice, put the point it was making in the local newspaper so that we could read it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad7507bfbf9f4e74b09ca7cff27e8d7c\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and all I can say is one law for all dogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c816f6d6b2654b75b531bb53d941fec8\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Government received on the financial impact on rural New Zealand of the microchipping of dogs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df9ff059cccd4567ba8273315f689ec0\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Again, like the member, I have seen a number of reports and comments in newspaper articles. But if we aggregate the total cost of microchipping across the lifetime of a farm dog, and balance it up with the cost of feeding a farm dog, I think we would see that the cost is simply minuscule by comparison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281cbba738d8f459bb51f291c390997b1\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Timaru Herald article of 17 February that quotes Nanaia Mahuta\u2019s comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f08e5d72179e4bc99b94a81d50ff3240\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201d11fd1ac84bc0be431900330166bd\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Manawatu Standard article of 17 February, in which Jim Anderton talks about practical solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b685c9f20fa24c9a8a3fbede85c263f4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb828706cd842f48a125631f6839085\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table my press statement from which the Timaru Herald articles quoted, which clarifies the statements I actually made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022378f69d85a1d45f49de1b2ae0a409c6a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10 to Minister\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002292c689a825fc47bdbc9f23d9e122119f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292c689a825fc47bdbc9f23d9e122119f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I just want to clarify a technical point in relation to my answer to question No. 10 to Simon Power. I answered that the collaborative working arrangements were in place. They are in place, but they have not been finally signed off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f246f5f7d48e4e99b51e585de75e9b18\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252349a2c522444beb5b74961dfeffd0c\u0022\u003EChild, Youth and Family Services, Department\u2014Merger with Ministry of Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdf6bdf3a20748c091ef466c9e52c522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdf6bdf3a20748c091ef466c9e52c522\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received letters from the Hon Dr Nick Smith and Gordon Copeland seeking an urgent debate under Standing Order 380 on the decision of the Minister of Conservation to decline consent for a marina at Whangamata, and a letter from Judith Collins seeking a debate on the Government\u2019s decision to merge the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services with the Ministry of Social Development. Those are both particular cases of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility, and I agree they are important enough to require the immediate attention of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EIn these circumstances the Speaker must, under Standing Order 382, give priority to the matter that, in the Speaker\u2019s opinion, is the more urgent and important. In that regard, I note that the decision to merge the departments is to be effected by Order in Council in the next 3 months. On the other hand, the Minister\u2019s decision is effective now, subject to any legal challenge that may be made. I have therefore decided to give priority to the applications relating to the Whangamata marina, as they relate to a decision that is already in force. As Dr Smith\u2019s application was received by me first, I call upon him to move that the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227662c75e515a4d4cab398b63edce8947\u0022\u003EWhangamata Marina\u2014Minister\u2019s Intervention\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002245ac7703063e41379d6d3e158886991c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245ac7703063e41379d6d3e158886991c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance. What occurred last Tuesday, when Chris Carter overruled the decisions of the Thames-Coromandel District Council and the Waikato Regional Council, an agreement signed by the Department of Conservation, and a decision of the Principal Environment Court Judge was an outrage. Every New Zealander in this country should be concerned about and up in arms at that dictatorial decision, which brings the whole process of resource decision-making in this country into disrepute. It is a sign of the dictatorial, arrogant Government, which National wants to bring to account this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe resource consent for the Whangamata marina was lodged back in 1994. The application was considered after public notification and the hearing of submissions by the Thames-Coromandel District Council and the Waikato Regional Council, and both those bodies\u2014those locally elected bodies\u2014gave approval for the marina. In 1998 the Department of Conservation negotiated an agreement that was signed by Mr Greg Martin, the regional conservator, with the Whangamata Marina Society. After 7 years of machinations and 27 days of hearings, the Environment Court concluded that the project was sound and met the requirements of the Act, and in October 2005 it gave approval for it. What is it about Chris Carter and this Labour Government that means they believe they have the right to overturn the local council, the regional council, their own department, and the Environment Court? What sort of arrogance now pervades the Beehive that means the Government can ride roughshod over our courts and our democratically elected councils? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EJust prior to the election, the Minister said to the Local Government New Zealand conference that Labour believes in local people making local decisions. Why, for goodness\u2019 sake, did he say that prior to the election but afterwards ride roughshod over them? It is also interesting to note that the Prime Minister said to the Local Government New Zealand conference in Christchurch last year that Labour believes in local people making local decisions. Her word, too, has been broken with this appalling decision. But the issue is not just with regard to the councils. It is even more serious in respect of the courts. This decision was not made by some lowly official within the Environment Court; it was a decision of the Principal Environment Court Judge\u2014the top judge in New Zealand in respect of environmental issues. What sort of mickey mouse outfit do we have in this country when we cannot have confidence in the decisions of New Zealand\u2019s highest court? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWhen we asked the Minister in the House this afternoon how many days of submissions and how many days of evidence he had heard to match the 27 days that the Environment Court had heard on this matter, he told the House he had received some emails. Then the Minister had the gall to say that the majority of people in Whangamata oppose the marina. What evidence does he have of that? My colleague Sandra Goudie pointed out that it was not a survey. The Waikato Times had phoned every single household in Whangamata, and found that 66 percent of people supported the marina and 20 percent were opposed to it. So we demand to know from the Minister this afternoon where the evidence is to back up his claim that the Whangamata people oppose the marina. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ETo give the House some idea of the political machinations that have gone on behind the scenes\u2014the sort of manipulation that Chris Carter and his Labour mates will do in order to override proper process\u2014I will read out to members what was written in an email. Bob Harvey\u2014a former president of the Labour Party\u2014stated that he had \u201Cconfirmed that the Minister has the balls to stop the marina going ahead.\u201D That was 3 days before the Minister said that he had made his decision. The email goes on to state: \u201CHe has asked for support from those that will back him. Please drop Chris a line\u201D\u2014members should listen to this\u2014\u201Cso he can say the majority of people who contacted him will support his decision.\u201D That is an appalling manipulation. That is the sort of thing that has gone on in the background in order to override 27 days of hearings in the Environment Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EResource consent decisions are too important to be left to some sort of popularity contest. They should be based on evidence and robust judicial processes. If the Minister wanted to uphold the process, there were other perfectly legal options for him to pursue. I asked him in the House this afternoon why he did not use the very specific power in section 119 of the Resource Management Act to refer the case back to the Environment Court. The Act states that the Minister of Conservation, if he or she is concerned that all issues have not been taken into account, can do just that. Chris Carter chose not to use that power. Why? Because this was a political decision to play to Labour\u2019s Green and M\u0101ori mates\u2014it had nothing to do with good resource management, and nothing to do with the law. Furthermore, of course, the Minister had the power to appeal the decision to the High Court, but he did not choose to do that, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIf we look back over the 9 years that National administered the Act, we will find that not once, despite hundreds of applications, did any National Minister overturn a decision of the Environment Court. We can imagine the uproar if a National Minister had overturned a resource consent that had been approved by the Environment Court\u2014Labour members would have been protesting and rioting. But when Labour does just that, somehow it is justified. The truth is that Chris Carter has abused his powers. He has got it awfully wrong; he should resign. He would be far better as the Minister of Conservation in Robert Mugabe\u2019s Zimbabwe Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIt is not my intention to canvass all of the issues that were properly considered before the Environment Court. But I draw attention to three particular facts that the court noted. The first is that Chris Carter would have us believe that the whole estuary is to be taken up by the marina, although it actually takes up 4 hectares of the 440 hectares, or less than 1 percent. The second is that the Minister said he made his decision on the basis that the salt marsh was extra significant. Well, that is not what the Environment Court found. In fact, Chris Carter\u2019s own department stated in its report that the salt marsh was not of great significance, that it was significantly deteriorating, and that it would recommend that a better investment in the protection of salt marshes would be rehabilitation, with money from the marina society, for one of the salt marshes further north. The third point I note is that the Minister has somehow pretended that the marina is a threat to the surfies who enjoy Whangamata Beach. Yet, the official report of the Waikato Regional Council makes it plain that there is no risk; in fact, it notes that the marina would increase the tidal flows and increase the security of the beach and the harbour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWhat really worries me about this issue are the underlying currents that go with the Minister\u2019s decision. This is part of the Government hating success. It does not like people who work hard, save their money, buy a boat, buy a yacht, and are able to enjoy that which is special to New Zealand. This decision is a sick part of the tall-poppy syndrome that this Government represents: it does not like people who use marinas, and it does not like people who have boats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also say that this decision is part of a culture where M\u0101ori and iwi have used the process to lobby the Minister behind the scenes, rather than going through the proper process of the courts. I say to members on the Government side of the House that if iwi had a concern, the proper place to express that concern was before the courts. It is an absolute disgrace, frankly, that it took 13 years for this resource consent to be processed. What sort of country is it that when 200-odd genuine boaties want to improve the facilities in their community, it takes 13 years to get a resource consent? Do the Minister and the other Government members believe 13 years is a reasonable timetable to make a decision in? What do they say about the $1.3 million that that community group has had to try to invest in order to bring about an improvement in its community? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI draw attention to the public meeting that was held in Whangamata on Saturday. The Government was invited to attend it. There are 50 Labour MPs, but not one of them had the courage to front up to those 380 people and explain the decision of their Minister. An absolutely unanimous vote of no confidence was passed in that Minister. The people of Whangamata call on this Parliament to uphold the decision of the Environment Court, and they call on this Parliament to remove the power that can be abused by Ministers like Chris Carter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe on the Opposition side of the House say the Resource Management Act is in desperate need of reform. We tabled a substantial reform bill way back in 1999, arising from the Owen McShane review, which recommended that the ministerial veto be abolished. We say again today that it should go and that National will repeal it at the first opportunity, in order to stop Ministers like Chris Carter abusing their powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis decision goes to the heart of the integrity of good government. Do we have respect in our courts? Do we trust our locally elected councils\u2014the regional councils\u2014to have the right process for dealing with those sorts of decisions, or are we to have a cheap process where Chris Carter and a few of his political mates, like Bob Harvey, can override 13 years of proper, robust, judicial process? National says that Chris Carter has abused his powers. National says that the Resource Management Act must be reformed. National says that the Labour Party owes an apology to the people of Whangamata, who have beavered away for years to try to improve the facilities in their community. And National says that we must have respect for the proper process of the Environment Court, and not have Ministers ride roughshod over that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe have a national coastal plan. We have regional coastal plans. The Minister has the power to approve both of those plans. The Minister has extensive powers to appeal decisions that the courts have made concerning decisions that affect him. But the Minister should not have the right to be able to do what he did last Tuesday. I call on every member of the House to stand up for integrity in Government, to stand up for proper process, to stand up for some integrity in resource decision-making, and to overturn the decision of Chris Carter, who abused his powers last Tuesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002212028f0ff1bb4b6da409879c53795b26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212028f0ff1bb4b6da409879c53795b26\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E As the Minister of Conservation I am charged under the Resource Management Act with protecting the public interest in the spectacular coastline of New Zealand. As part of that responsibility, which I take very seriously, I am required to make the final decision on restricted coastal activities under the Resource Management Act, including those activities that will occupy public space on the coast and involve large-scale dredging or the construction of structures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMy office gets roughly 25 of these applications a year, and I have declined just one\u2014an application to build a marina in Whangamata Harbour. I turned this application down because, having looked at the issues involved in the proposal, the way the Environment Court approached them, and the evidence, I was not satisfied that allowing use of the public\u2019s coastal marine area for that development would be appropriate in terms of the Resource Management Act. I am conscious that in making this decision I am going against a recommendation of the Environment Court, but the law requires the Minister of Conservation to exercise an overall judgment on certain coastal development matters that is distinct from the court\u2019s. I have fulfilled my statutory duty and made an overall judgment in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe reasons for my decision are twofold. First, the marina requires a salt marsh to be turned into a car-park. The value of that salt marsh to the area is heavily contested. Three experts before the Environment Court said it was valuable and one\u2014the expert put up by the applicants\u2014said it was not. The Environment Court in its judgment highlighted the difficulty it had in coming to a decision about the salt marsh. In the end the court favoured the applicants; I did not. My judgment was that the salt marsh is valuable and important to the ecology of Whangamata Harbour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMy second reason for declining the application was the impact the proposal would have on M\u0101ori and the shellfish beds in Whangamata Harbour. The marina would require extensive dredging. Initial construction would remove up to 167,000 cubic metres of seabed. A further 6,000 cubic metres per year would have to be removed on an ongoing basis. The marina would require the construction of a channel that would cross Whangamata Harbour and sever the shellfish beds. Once again, conflicting evidence was presented to the Environment Court on those matters. The court chose to go one way, and it was a direction I could not agree with. It is my judgment that there would be an inappropriate impact on the shellfish resource and on local iwi who use the area. The scale of that impact is evident by the fact that the iwi have been consistent in their opposition to the marina proposal from the start. What is more, they have been unified by their opposition\u2014a sign of how deeply they feel about Whangamata and its significance to New Zealand. We need to respect those views in this House and also acknowledge that a great many members of the public share them, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003ESince announcing my decision I have seen hysterical claims that I have subverted proper process and committed a constitutional outrage in turning down this application. I utterly reject those claims. The proper process is laid down in law, and the law requires me to be the final decision maker on restricted coastal activities. Each and every Environment Court judgment on restricted coastal activities that comes to me comes as a report and a recommendation only. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EParliament\u2019s intent in the Resource Management Act is quite explicit: the Minister of Conservation must make the final decision. The courts themselves have required that of the Minister. In Hastings District Council v Minister of Conservation, in 2002, the High Court stated: \u201CIf the Minister was not, lawfully and properly, able to depart from the recommendation of the Committee or Environment Court, there would be no point in vesting in her the ultimate decision-making power, as s 119 does. Although the Minister must take into account the recommendation of the Committee or the Court, she is not bound by them. She is not merely a rubber stamp. She is able, indeed she is required, to exercise her own judgment.\u201D I have done just that. That ruling was from the High Court of New Zealand in 2002. I have followed the proper process. I have upheld the law and I am quite prepared to consider further advice from the courts should this issue proceed to judicial review and return to me. It is not I who is subverting proper process or committing a constitutional outrage; it is those people like National MP Nick Smith, who is now seeking to take the extraordinary step of retrospectively changing the law to allow this proposal to proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EBut just what is Nick Smith\u2019s interest in this matter? His own involvement in it as the Minister of Conservation in the 1990s is very murky, indeed. He has made a great deal of noise about the fact that the Department of Conservation did not take part in the Environment Court proceedings on the marina proposal. But what he has not told the people of New Zealand is that the department was opposed to the marina because of its environmental impacts, and that it lodged an appeal against the Waikato Regional Council\u2019s approval of it in 1997. It was only after pressure was put on the department by its Minister in 1999 that the department withdrew its appeal and settled with the Whangamata Marina Society. The Minister at the time was, of course, none other than Nick Smith. I challenge him to make it clear to this House today why he pressured the department to withdraw from the process and exactly how he was fulfilling his responsibility to the public, on whose property this marina is to be built. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMembers of this House need to remember that the coast is not privately owned. It is a resource that belongs to each and every citizen of this country, not to just a few. It is a resource that New Zealanders value, and it forms a part of our national identity. We are an island nation, and countless New Zealand families either live or holiday on the coast. Most of us have a favourite beach or piece of headland. Most of us care deeply about what happens there, whether or not the National Party accepts that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI suspect that this is the reason why the previous National Government, under Jim Bolger, passed the Resource Management Act with the ministerial decision-making power intact. I know that it is the reason why the power has been retained in every subsequent amendment to the Act. Given the extent of public interest in the coast, it is entirely appropriate that a publicly elected individual, accountable to the people, makes the final decision on what will happen to the coast\u2014not the courts. As the courts have already said, it is entirely appropriate that that person can say no to the applications; otherwise, what purpose is served by his or her having a power of decision in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EAlthough I did not take into account wider public concerns about what is happening on the coast in my decision on the Whangamata marina, I am aware that the passions the issue has invoked are common to many other proposals. Considerable anxiety has been expressed by communities around the country about the amount of development on the coastline, and the impact it is having on the character of our coast and on the traditional Kiwi lifestyle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EBecause of that anxiety, I initiated a review of New Zealand\u2019s coastal policy statement shortly after becoming the Minister of Conservation. The New Zealand coastal policy statement is the only national policy statement issued under the Resource Management Act. It guides councils in their decision making about what types of activities will be allowed, controlled, or prohibited in coastal areas. It has been in place now for the better part of a decade. In that time the pace of and trends in coastal development have changed considerably. I believe it is prudent to now re-examine how the policy is working and what we want for our coastline. An independent review of this policy has been completed and policy development is now under way. I expect to be able to release a new draft coastal policy statement for public consultation later this year through a board of inquiry. The board of inquiry will consider public submissions and hold hearings nationwide. I intend to give it broad terms of reference. That way, all New Zealanders who care about the coast can have greater confidence in the system, which will ensure that the development of the coast is sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI care passionately about New Zealand; I care passionately about our coastline. I am proud to be a Kiwi, and while I am the Minister of Conservation we will be looking after this country of ours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00226c410417378c40fd8de8392186712031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c410417378c40fd8de8392186712031\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Given the claim made by the Minister of Conservation that in 1999 I interfered in the process, I seek leave to table the agreement made between the Whangamata Marina Society and the Department of Conservation in 1998.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eff9125859e465cbb0c85d33d8c51ff\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022456a5433c6da49df9af66c337df22ecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022456a5433c6da49df9af66c337df22ecd\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First has listened to both sides of this argument. We are happy that the law has been observed both by the Whangamata Marina Society, over many, many years, and by the Minister. It is one of those situations where we are not particularly happy with what has been done, but we cannot go up to Whangamata, as National Party members have done, and rabble-rouse and try to stir up trouble in an irresponsible way. We are content to wait for a judicial review, which we are sure will happen, and which the marina society is seeking. We are happy to wait for the views of that review to be known. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe also believe that it is important to understand that this Parliament\u2014and I am talking now about Nick Smith\u2019s proposed bill\u2014does not change retrospectively a decision that a Minister has made lawfully. Whether or not we agree with that decision is another story altogether, but there is so much huff and puff going on at present that I think it will do people good just to wait and see what other people have to say about this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe understand that the marina society was more than prepared to address the issues brought up by local iwi, and that it was doing that willingly and happily. We understand that the local marina society was happy to address those issues that were of concern to the surfers. We understand that all of those issues would have been addressed by the marina society. But we do accept that this is not on private land. This is on public land, and we accept that a higher barrier of proof must pertain in this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe Minister has used his judgment in this case. Personally, I would probably have gone along with the Environment Court, but New Zealand First does not accept the stance taken by the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f7c94708d95495cb9f9db0382b4a74a\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t talk rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5fab73aa5b64579bf33251a802b653b\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite says that I am talking rubbish. I am taking a responsible view, as is New Zealand First, as opposed to the stirring of the National members who are saying that democracy is being overturned when it is they who, over a number of years when they were in Government, were party to putting into law the vetoes that are being used by the Minister today. This is not something new; it is not something that has just happened. If members go back to the days of Simon Upton, Nick Smith, etc., they will see that the things National members are arguing against today are things that they put into place years ago. I, for one, do not know how Nick Smith can pretend in front of an audience in Whangamata that he is more pure than the driven snow when National is largely responsible for the legislation that has led to this decision. It is National that accepted that a Minister should have the power of veto, and New Zealand First is not denying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ELocal government, as we all know, works on the basis that its responsibilities are devolved by central government, and we do not have a lot of checks and balances on that. One of the things we do have, and that we will fight to retain, is the power of veto. I think it would be a very sad day if central government were just to say that it will walk away from its responsibility, that it will fire shots at local government, that it will stir up trouble locally, but that it will not accept the final responsibility. New Zealand First is not of that view. We are prepared to wait for the judicial review that we know is coming, and we will speak more on this subject then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022042cb7d44ef64948b1257531cde2634c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022042cb7d44ef64948b1257531cde2634c\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens are very pleased that someone has finally made some attempt to defend our coastline from inappropriate subdivision and development under the law, using the law that we have available to us to do that protection. Increasingly, favourite and beautiful holiday spots\u2014places where the public can go to camp, to barbecue, and to picnic\u2014are becoming little suburbias. And they are not little average Joe suburbias; they are little suburbias for the wealthy and the privileged. That is not what part of being a New Zealander means. These are not the values that New Zealanders hold for the coast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIncreasingly, we see areas like \u014Cpoutama in the M\u0101hia Peninsula, for example, becoming little subdivisions with a tiny little space left for those who holiday there regularly. There has been the development of Whitianga and P\u0101uanui, and there have even been threats to take more camping grounds off the New Zealand public, and to enable them to be privatised so that only the wealthy can get access to those coastal areas. There is increasing privatisation of public space and of the areas of land that New Zealanders hold dear to themselves and have done so for all the time we have been in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EOur coastal areas are incredibly important. They are p\u0101taka kai, they are areas for recreation, and they are incredibly important parts of our identity as New Zealanders. Yet there is an increasing encroachment on them by the wealthy and by those with the privilege to privatise those areas. It is so shameful of National to take a position in support of the wealthy against the rights of the New Zealand public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe issues at Whangamata are complex and I do not pretend to know all of the detail about them, but at the heart of the issue is the protection of our fragile coastal ecology. For example, the salt marshes have been talked about, and whether we should have 205 private berthing areas for those wealthy enough to own boats to be able to float around that area, and have car parks so that they can drive their cars to their boats and enjoy the area, whilst the thousands of people who use that area now for recreation\u2014the ordinary families of New Zealand from around that area who use it for their recreation today\u2014are left out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EAfter the foreshore and seabed debate, which was a terrible time for this country, both the Government and National refused to enable M\u0101ori customary rights over some parts of the foreshore and seabed. They argued that they did so because they did not want M\u0101ori to privatise the foreshore and seabed. They did not want M\u0101ori to own those areas, even though the opportunities for doing so were extremely slim and the law could have been fixed to make sure private ownership never happened. They argued so strongly that those areas were for the New Zealand public, for everyone to picnic at and to take their families for a swim. Yet National now says: \u201CNo, actually, some parts of the coast can be privatised.\u201D When Nick Smith talked about the foreshore and seabed in 2003, he said that the foreshore should not be privatised by stealth and that it should be protected and managed for the benefit of all New Zealanders. That is what he said about the foreshore and seabed. What is he saying now? He is saying that wealthy people are entitled to own parts of that area\u2014that the people who can afford to do it should be able to buy parts of the foreshore for their private and personal use. Where is the consistency in that? It is a disgusting position for that party to take after its staunch opposition on the foreshore and seabed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EAll the Greens have ever said is: \u201CBe consistent, at least. Have a principle, at least.\u201D We opposed the foreshore and seabed legislation. We did not want the foreshore and seabed to be privatised either, by anybody, and we had options for making sure that would not happen. In this House today we maintain that same position. That coastline should not be privatised, and we should increasingly protect the coastline from privatisation. We maintain a consistent position. What do National members do? They change their minds depending on who has their ear at the time. It is a terrible disgrace for this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens believe that the Minister of Conservation has exercised his statutory powers properly and carefully, and whether or not we agree with his final decision, the fact is it is a legal power that he is able to exercise, and he has exercised it rightfully. It is absolutely critical that somebody considers the matters of national importance that are part of the Resource Management Act. We need only look at section 6 of the Resource Management Act to see that as a matter of national importance we must protect the character of the coastal environment from inappropriate subdivision, use, and development. Yet that very strong principle for the protection of all New Zealanders has been abused in the past, and at some point a line must be set and a decision made that we will protect our coastline from private purchase. We will protect our coastline for the benefit of all New Zealanders. I am strongly in favour of the Minister\u2019s decision, because he has done that. Let us just hope that this sends a strong signal out to our community that someone is prepared to defend our public rights to our coastline, because somebody has to. The Minister\u2019s power must be increasingly used, otherwise we will find ourselves in situations, as across the globe, where the wealthy and people with access to resources\u2014by whatever means\u2014can get access to our coastal environment and ordinary New Zealanders are left out in the cold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe are very proud that the Resource Management Act has finally been used for something constructive that will protect the interests of the people of this country. There is no point having national guidelines or national standards if they are not applied, and the Minister of Conservation has done that. A strong statement about the protection of our coastlines was made during the foreshore and seabed debate. It is timely that it is applied. If that is the principle we apply in this country\u2014that it must be protected for the public use\u2014then it is absolutely critical that nobody gets extra privileges just because they have a bit of extra money. The Greens believe that the right decision has been made, and we are very pleased to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6b015538b624f51995c21250fb70f7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6b015538b624f51995c21250fb70f7e\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am concerned, and I want to seek leave for this House to note its concern to the Minister that he has not even bothered to stay in the House to listen to the debate, even in respect of his coalition partner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b7c570cb2b340f3bdd5f42506593210\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d508018d615e426e9d7ad4eae3e3fc9f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am entitled to seek leave. I seek leave for this House to pass a motion expressing its concern that the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d38133a7072349be83bc7f2dc28207f5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. The member knows very well that he is not to refer to members being or not being in the House. He knows that very clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c80b0f0899d2458eb4f48f7f0c9c7edf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c80b0f0899d2458eb4f48f7f0c9c7edf\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I would like to express my thanks to Madam Speaker for allowing the Minister\u2019s decision to be debated in the House today, because that is just and proper. We are, at the heart of this issue, looking at an unprecedented, deliberate veto by the Hon Chris Carter that overturns a decision or a recommendation of the Environment Court. In response to the Green Party members, when they talked about \u201Cno one\u201D, I ask: does that include a duly convened court of law? Why do they conclude that wisdom resides in one single person, to the exclusion of an entire community, an entire process, and a properly convened court of law? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ECentral to this issue is justice. Surely the reason for being here, the raison d\u2019\u00EAtre for this Parliament\u2019s existence, is to uphold the standards of justice in this country. The people of New Zealand elect us as a Parliament to ensure that the system is fair and just, and in this particular situation there is no doubt whatever in my mind that the result that has been arrived at is completely unjust. We should be the ones who take it upon ourselves to guarantee justice to the citizens of New Zealand, and the Minister\u2019s actions, I believe, violate that key principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ELet us consider the facts as we know them. The Whangamata Marina Society has followed due process, a process of law that was laid down by this Parliament. The process has taken no fewer than 14 years. I repeat: 14 years of effort has gone into it. It has cost $1.3 million and all of that culminated in the decision of the Environment Court, headed by the specialist in this area, the person who has the responsibility for the decision and who made a decision, I believe without fear or favour, as an independent member of our judiciary, which, under our constitutional rules, is, of course, independent of Parliament. By any definition that we can imagine, it was a thorough process. Every relevant fact and, I am sure, many irrelevant facts were taken into consideration. The views of all were considered. There was analysis, dissection, and study. Scientific tests were carried out ad nauseam\u2014one could say, when considering that it was a 14-year process, to the point of exhaustion\u2014firstly by the local territorial authority, and then all over again by the Environment Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EEveryone had a say: local citizens, iwi, and the Department of Conservation\u2014which, of course, is the Minister\u2019s very own department\u2014and they had expressed their contentment with the marina. As has been outlined to the House earlier, the Department of Conservation actually entered into a contractual arrangement, saying that it would no longer oppose the marina. The court finally made its decision, which was, of course, that the marina could and should proceed. So it seems to me to be an almost capricious response that the Minister has decided to exercise his reserve power and veto the decision, following that whole process. How can that be just? How can that be fair? How can that be right? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s response in the House today was simply to say that he followed the right procedures and had the legal ability to overturn the court\u2019s decision. Therefore, as happened with the Dominion Post and TV3 in relation to the cartoons of Mohammed, and as happened with the \u201CBloody Mary\u201D episode on South Park, he basically said that because he had the right to do it, he would do it. I remember full well that on the occasions I have mentioned the Minister, Chris Carter told the media\u2014it was on television\u2014that just because one can do something, that does not mean one should do it. I think in this case he has actually gone against his own principle and violated that. It is not a good argument to say that he followed the right process and he has the authority to do something, so he will do it. Chris Carter needs to be able to demonstrate objectively, in relation to the facts of the matter, that indeed he reconsidered the court decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe Minister should be able to spell out to this House, which he has failed to do, exactly what his grounds were. Where was the Environment Court wrong? Where were the local people wrong? What new considerations did he bring in? As has been pointed out, even if the Minister had some justifiable concerns about the marina, why did he not refer the matter back to the Environment Court? It seems to me that it is unwise to give the Minister a veto power in our legislation, but as long as we have it, it should certainly be the very last option and every other option should be looked at first. Otherwise, we come to the situation where literally one person has the ability to overturn a decision that has gone through a 14-year process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn a question to the Minister today, I drew attention to the fact that recently a court in New Zealand has ordered the Rt Hon Winston Peters to pay costs of $30,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298547f4c7c3e4171b02a11afc7a2bb3a\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: $40,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238cd9a4440e54d6ea86219d7a69d2850\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014$40,000\u2014I beg the member\u2019s pardon; I meant to say $40,000\u2014to Bob Clarkson, now the member for Tauranga, which was actually a 50 percent contribution to the costs of $80,000 the member had incurred in defending an action against him. Well, fifty-fifty means just that, and there is another injustice here. It is the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, the society spent $1.3 million, and that money is down the drain. That money, which was spent in good faith following the law of this country, has gone down the drain. It is a significant loss by any standards, and I think that is quite wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe also need to ask ourselves where the Minister\u2019s decision leaves the community of Whangamata. Is it, alone amongst the coastal communities of New Zealand, to do without a marina? Is that what the decision means? I believe that it does mean that. I believe it means that for all time, unless we do something about it as a Parliament, there will be no marina in Whangamata. If the Minister disputes that and says that there is an alternative site, then let him tell us where it is. Let him define exactly an alternative site that would satisfy his environmental concerns, so that the people of that community can have a marina. Why should they be denied what so many other people, in virtually every other coastal community in New Zealand, have been given? Why should we separate them out, as it were, for special, negative treatment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EOr are the people of Whangamata now to go back and start the whole process all over again, on an alternative site? Are they to take another 14 years of effort and spend another $1.3 million? I would ascertain that, allowing for inflation over those 14 years, it would cost at least $2.6 million. Is that the only option that the decision leaves them with? I think it probably is. That is the hard reality, and I do not think that it is fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnited Future will therefore give its support to the member\u2019s bill in Nick Smith\u2019s name, which attempts to overturn the Minister\u2019s decision. I know that in the normal course of events we do not like retrospective legislation, but I want to draw the attention of the House to the bigger picture, which is that we are here in the pursuit of justice. We should look at the decision objectively and say that we got it wrong, that it is a totally unjust result for the people of Whangamata, considering all the effort they have put in, and that we should revisit the decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe Government itself should also think about rectifying the situation. It has the ability to bring a Government bill to the House. We do not even know whether Nick Smith\u2019s bill will ever come out of the ballot. In contrast with that, the Government has a clear, straightforward opportunity to bring a bill to the House and to overturn the decision. I totally agree with the statements of the Prime Minister and of Chris Carter during the election campaign that this kind of decision should be devolved to a local community. That is central to the political philosophy of the party I represent, United Future. We believe that local communities should be responsible for local issues, and that it should not be acceptable to the House or to the country for a single human being to come along and say he or she knows better, is wiser, and has access to more information than the local community. None of that stacks up to any decent analysis. So I say to the Government that I think that it should act in order to fix this matter. I know there would be some political embarrassment associated with overruling one of its own Cabinet Ministers, but, frankly, I believe that justice demands no less than to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddb170e7bf46495dbdcca172ca0d5595\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddb170e7bf46495dbdcca172ca0d5595\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E We come to the House today to commend the long-term commitment of Hauraki M\u0101ori to protect the coastline in the public interest of the community of Whangamata. Their actions speak to us of some key values that should resonate throughout the House: of kaupapa kaitiakitanga, of manaakitanga, and of respecting the covenant of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Today we acknowledge the commitment and perseverance of the Hauraki M\u0101ori Trust Board, of Te Kupenga o Ng\u0101ti Hako, and of other iwi groups that have fought a valiant battle to preserve the mauri of the natural environment and the cultural heritage of their rohe. Their submissions and appeals have played a huge part in informing the Minister\u2019s decision. They argued that the harbour would be polluted, that access to shellfish would be restricted, and that other kai moana would be destroyed. The M\u0101ori Party congratulates those groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe remind the House today that the process that members signed up to is the same process that they are now criticising. Although we do indeed agree with the outcome of the decision for the people of Whangamata, we must make it very clear that we do not agree with some members of the House who have said that the Minister in some way subverted that process, when indeed he followed the process to the letter of the law. There was always a section in the law that enabled the Minister to have the last say. He followed that process, and here we are today. We have a saying in te ao M\u0101ori: e kore te p\u0101tiki e hoki ki t\u014Dna puehu\u2014the flounder never goes back to where the dust has become unsettled. That reminds us that we should not necessarily revisit policies that all members\u2014I was not here at the time\u2014were the architects of. Having developed the process, and then having encouraged people to follow the process, it is somewhat ironic that in the Chamber today we are hearing members speak with much rage and indignation about the process being overturned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe do, however, have some very real concerns about whether the issue was a legal or a moral dilemma. We need to ask whether the means justify the end. Did the Minister anticipate the upheaval that has resulted following his decision? Did the Minister anticipate that the Environment Court would turn the applicant down? We have heard reports of\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022502af1ab82e24143b56ec8300ddc32fe\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: So you want to talk about the foreshore and seabed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223939a730c8544b3783174ffb3a6230fe\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: We will come to that. We have heard reports of racist abuse and racial slurs being cast throughout the community. That is not an outcome that any of us would have anticipated. Is the decision on the Whangamata marina part of the Government ethos of one law for all? The last time it made a decision like that, M\u0101ori people suffered. This time it is P\u0101keh\u0101 folk from Whangamata who are suffering, except for the surfers, environmentalists, and ecologists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI ask members today to cast their minds back a couple of years to another controversial decision, which was made by other Ministers, to overturn a Court of Appeal finding. It was not very long ago, in June 2003, that the Court of Appeal released a decision that the M\u0101ori Land Court had jurisdiction to determine the status of the foreshore and seabed under Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Act 1993 and the M\u0101ori Land Act. Tangata whenua have always enabled others to enjoy access to the foreshore and seabed, and that fact should have been appreciated. Instead, the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General at the time chose to intervene and to deny M\u0101ori due process. The rest is history. I had to laugh, when listening to the Minister\u2019s speech, at his faint rebuttal when he said that the marina decision was in the interests of M\u0101ori. How lovely! Perhaps we can count on his support when we submit our bill for the repeal of the Foreshore and Seabed Act of 2004 later this year. [Interruption] It is funny that I did not hear him say the same things a couple of years back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe applaud the decision this time at Whangamata. We commend the way that it has drawn public attention to the loss of coastal habitat, the increased sediment, the contaminant levels in the harbour, and the impact of that on the well-being of the people. Coastal areas have always been rich sources of resources for tangata whenua. Coastal iwi have consistently followed management practices that both established and enforced harvesting limits, and also maintained the health of the ecosystem on which the resource is dependent. Coastal habitation sites like Whangamata are absolutely vital to the identity of iwi, as well as being something of a cultural icon to surfers, ecologists, holidaymakers, and New Zealand families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Minister has made a very positive decision, which reflects the influence of indigenous, holistic thinking. However, we fully appreciate that the Whangamata Marina Society will be reeling from the economic effects of lost opportunity, and we hope very much that the Government will consider issues about repayment to those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002244544fa6f41e40bc811e01f5468d9fac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244544fa6f41e40bc811e01f5468d9fac\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister did get it wrong, and I will tell the House why he got it wrong. The Whangamata marina case raises a deep question about the principles of Government. In short, it was wrong in principle for Minister Carter to overturn the decision of the Environment Court to allow the building of the marina. It is not a case of whether the marina is good or bad; it is a case of whether the Minister should have intervened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EA fundamental principle of law is certainty. People should be able to know what the law is, that it is predictable in its application, and that they should be able to rely on the decisions of the courts. The reasons for that lie at the heart of modern society. People need predictability in order to be able to make their own decisions. If the rules cannot be predicted, investment will not take place. Orderly Government will fail. That is precisely why the divine right of kings was overthrown. The issue was not only that it was unrepresentative; the principal reason was that decisions were likely to be capricious. Those are the words of my esteemed colleague Dr Wayne Mapp. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EDr Mapp goes on further to say\u2014and I fully support his words\u2014that that is exactly the problem with regard to the Minister\u2019s decision about the marina. What is the point of preparing an extensive case for the court, and of having a hearing lasting 27 days and costing many thousands of dollars, when the decision of the court counts for nothing? The Minister takes a few hours, takes only one side of the argument, and then turns his thumb up or down\u2014in this case, down. He actually stated, in a document I have here, that he has disregarded any other correspondence or communications he received on the marina that were not considered by the court in the statutory process, but I for one do not believe that for a moment. I do not think that anybody in his or her right mind could do that\u2014particularly after the Minister tried to display the many emails he is using to try to justify the stance he has taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe Minister has argued that he is simply discharging his duty under the law, and that the law was passed by National in 1991. But a law that gives such powers is inherently bad, and blaming National for passing it\u2014as the Minister has attempted to do on many occasions\u2014does not make it any better. That does not get to the core issue, which is the fundamental issue of the right of veto. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ENational recognised that issue in a review of the Resource Management Act in 1998. In hindsight, it was clear that it was fundamentally worrying in principle to give a Minister the power to overturn a decision of a court. Labour voted against removing that power, not just once but also again in 2003, when it refused an amendment to remove the ministerial power to overturn a decision of the court. The Minister, in the Whangamata case\u2014or indeed any other case requiring a similar ministerial discretion\u2014should not exercise his discretion to overturn a decision of the court. The issue was a clear-cut case of the basic principle of how a Government should work, but the Minister has comprehensively failed the test of constitutional propriety, both in making that decision and also in voting against the law change that would have removed that power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThat view is supported by the concerns that have echoed throughout local government. Indeed, people throughout New Zealand were profoundly concerned about that veto. It is the first time in 15 years that the veto has been exercised. Opponents use spurious claims about rich developers, yet the issue concerns an incorporated society: a local club. For 30 years a local resident has never seen anybody, and certainly not iwi, take shellfish from the particular area where the marina is to go\u2014which is less than 1 percent of the Whangamata harbour. Parliament has overruled the Minister in the past on such decisions, and it can do so again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe concern that is felt throughout New Zealand about this decision is also felt particularly by local government representatives. The Mayor of Thames-Coromandel District, Philippa Barriball\u2014one gutsy lady\u2014has been inundated with phone calls from mayors and councillors from throughout the country. They are hugely concerned at the implications of the Minister exercising his veto. \u201CIt certainly calls into question,\u201D she said, \u201Cwhy central government are intent on legislating for councils to undertake decision making, when every time we do so they tell us we got it wrong.\u201D For example, councils are asked to provide a roading priority list to the regional land transport committee, only to have Transit say that they have got it wrong. They are asked to undertake representation reviews, and the commission comes along and says they have got it wrong. They are asked to prepare and administer a district plan, and Carter says the local authority, the regional council, and the Environment Court all got it wrong. Philippa Barriball goes further to say: \u201CWell, my Beehive colleagues, why bother asking us in the first place?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe ministerial veto actually makes a complete mockery of the resource management process. Why not just go straight to the Minister and ask whether we can have something approved? Local authorities have plenty of projects throughout this country that they want to have supported, and now they want to know whether they should even bother to start the process of seeking resource consents, because that process can cost millions of dollars. We are talking about all sorts of projects here. We are talking about waste-water projects, which are absolutely vital for protecting our environment. But councils are now questioning whether they should go ahead with them if the Minister will only veto them at the last minute, given that he has the right of veto on projects in their coastal areas. A council is looking at doing a major $28 million marina project on Banks Peninsula. Why would it even start that process if the Minister will just say \u201CSorry, guys.\u201D The Resource Management Act processes take years, and they take hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars, so why would councils even start on those processes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s decision could start local government processes to spin out of control, because local bodies will look at their waste-water schemes and say: \u201CWe need to protect the environment but, heck, if we go down this path, what do we do? Do we spend lots more ratepayers\u2019 money or do we try to avoid the Minister\u2019s veto and think of an alternative?\u201D. That is in spite of the fact that they have probably spent hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars, already. It is an indictment of the process whereby the Minister has the right of veto, and for that reason we are concerned about the decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe want the veto to be removed. The judicial process must be upheld. Why are the law-abiding citizens of this country being treated worse in the resource management consent application process than criminals are in the justice system? That is wrong. We have heard of a worse case than the marina with regard to W\u0101naka, where someone with an inner courtyard wall painted blue, of which about a square metre could be seen from the road, was told to repaint the wall. It is all just out of control, and something needs to be done. Parliament needs to uphold the Environment Court\u2019s decision. We need to have justice in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWhen we had the public meeting at Whangamata on Saturday, I stood at the door wondering what to expect. People started to pour in, and it was emotionally overwhelming to see all that support. People allowed concerns to be aired at that meeting, and applauded the people who expressed those concerns in that environment\u2014which was in support of the Whangamata Marina Society. They applauded the people who had the courage to come out and express their concerns, and they treated everybody with respect. To say there was any threat against other people\u2019s lives is an absolute nonsense. I am appalled at the untruths that have been spoken through this whole process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe fundamental issue is an issue of justice. This Parliament needs to uphold justice, so I hope that all members will consider supporting the member\u2019s bill, in the name of the Hon Nick Smith, to uphold the Environment Court decision and to remove the power of veto from the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6be76839cde4bd4bf3d88c4df596048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6be76839cde4bd4bf3d88c4df596048\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E In the House today we are hearing a lot of railing against the Whangamata decision. It is not coming from the banded rail, a species on the classification list that is threatened by the Whangamata proposal, but from members of the Opposition, who themselves could be seen as a threatened species on that list. I heard the member opposite say that the use of the law that the ministerial powers invoke was just a weak excuse\u2014and that from a member who went out and slashed mangroves. It is simply a disgrace to say in this House that the Minister is hiding behind the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f69e47b8b89b49e38b012671eb0025ea\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member has just charged me with cutting mangroves, and that is actually not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022259e0ab58db543ad8696409bd6c2228b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order; it is a point of debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3062ba842c74909967d7491d40e3c7e\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: This has been a long process, and we do understand that it has also been a very complex process, under way since 1994. National members, though, have demonstrated that they simply get grumpy and cynical when the law goes against them and when, as is this case, they did not get their way. This Government is a caretaker of our lands, our coasts, and our seas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229294c4a3c97c461fa00ee35501f66af5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What did the council decide? What about local decision-making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d134fac52f84c748b8f489906d19887\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014as that previous Minister of Conservation well understands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s decision making must be made based on recommendations\u2014they were only recommendations, not decisions or rulings\u2014from the Environment Court. The court did not make a ruling; it made a recommendation to the Minister of Conservation. The Minister followed a law passed by National, and exercised his right under section 119 of the Resource Management Act of 1991. The High Court noted in 2002, in a decision made in Hastings, that the Environment Court does not make decisions on restricted coastal activities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5a165085edc47a4a840774e2ec406ba\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to please be seated; I want to rule. Reasonable interjections are obviously acceptable, but barraging is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c22623a356149d88d37a6bbd69f6772\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: As the High Court noted in the Hastings decision in 2002, if the Minister was not able to depart from the recommendation of the Environment Court there would be no point in vesting the Minister with the ultimate decision-making power. The Minister is not merely a rubber stamp. The Minister is able\u2014indeed, required\u2014to exercise his own judgment. In this case, and as the Minister said, he has 25 applications annually, and this is the first to be declined. I am sure that is why there is this cynical railing of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe Minister is not going against the advice of his own department. The Department of Conservation initially opposed the marina because of its environmental impacts, and it lodged an appeal against the Waikato Regional Council\u2019s approval of it in 1997. However, under pressure on the department in 1999 by the then Minister of Conservation, the Hon Nick Smith\u2014who is so rudely shouting at me\u2014the department was forced to withdraw its appeal and settle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b858d89ddf454c8885ad8b834e261912\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I draw to the member\u2019s attention that I have already ruled that reasonable interjections are allowed, but not barraging interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d3363d7f284e0897375b6d5317d3f5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Earlier the House allowed me to table a document to show what the member says is not true. The department came to an agreement in 1998\u2014it is simply not possible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224119712215254d9c8324f235e3457ec3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is not a point of order; that is a point of debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d4e826b98f413c83ef6b2788dfb68e\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: It is ironic that the department was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ae290a690704a1db04ff33c320a69c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229322974e06a5435f892cf6eb0894dacd\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Just now, and indeed two or three times previous to that, Dr Smith called out \u201Ctell the truth\u201D, which is an unparliamentary remark and is not allowed. So I ask him to withdraw and apologise for that and to bring his outbursts into line with the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206bc77735cc446f591681050210dba88\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have warned the member several times about the constant barraging and I ask him to be reasonable about interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd7870bb2cdb4002802a3742ff9858e8\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK\u003C/span\u003E: One remains cynical about why the department was forced to withdraw its appeal and settle with the Whangamata Marina Society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWhat future action has the Minister proposed, along with the decision that he made on the Whangamata marina? This is about a review of the coastal policy statement, and it has been stated in the House that this is now 12 years old. I think it is time, because coastal use and coastal values are important to all New Zealanders, not only those related to the Whangamata marina application, which involves 200 boaties. All New Zealanders are very concerned about coastal access, coastal use, coastal and land use, and the relationship to the Oceans Policy. The Minister has announced that he is appointing a board of inquiry to hear public submissions on a new coastal policy statement, with very broad terms of reference. The member opposite also knows that the Local Government and Environment Committee had a briefing on the Oceans Policy just this year, and learnt of the call for an integrated approach to oceans and coastal management. In fact, 37 laws and 25 agencies have an impact on the way we manage the coastal margins and our oceans. Of course we need to integrate and rationalise our decisions there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe are aware of the costs of the Whangamata Marina Society, and the costs to date are not insubstantial. But the law can, and must, be applied, and in this case it was applied appropriately. Any judicial review would decide whether appropriate action was taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe would all agree that the foreshore should not be privatised by stealth, and I tell Dr Smith that all New Zealanders would agree with that. We must not pick away at the coast on a piecemeal approach\u2014an iconic piece of our New Zealand landscape that impacts so much on our Kiwi way of life and, indeed, the six Hauraki iwi who also opposed this marina decision. Local decisions must be taken into account, and that principle was reiterated by the Minister in question time today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe can wage a war on the volume of emails\u2014and they have been voluminous\u2014survey responses done by media, and phone calls. But that will not give us the durable answers that we need for the development of our coastal estate. We do not need to promote change just for change\u2019s sake, but we do need to build on what we know is working well, and change only what we must change on an all-of-Government approach, including input from users in the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis Government is responsible for finding durable and sustainable solutions for land, coastal, and oceans management, and we will continue to pursue sustainable results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002251e7dd739d364a1aadb79db4f7545cb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251e7dd739d364a1aadb79db4f7545cb7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The time for the debate has concluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b669129279c84e129a707b1ce6032609\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b669129279c84e129a707b1ce6032609\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave on behalf of the ACT party to make a contribution to this urgent debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222caa1540103f48f58b480fe6aa7b9bed\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for the member to make a contribution to this debate. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e511e80fb3d4e21a491706d32123fa9\u0022\u003ELawyers and Conveyancers Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c1fa4a3ae2c425d912ef94d3d430ead\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000380\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 2 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022acfb7c93e15c4578af3387b9f20f81c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acfb7c93e15c4578af3387b9f20f81c7\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to join the final stages of the third reading of this bill. I was unavoidably absent from the House on 2 March when the third reading began.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a39317faa2e04957a211c74bb27d199f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bfdbd7549c24d559aa1afc91d16c4b8\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, I was with my very good friend and colleague the Minister of Police opening yet another new police station\u2014on this occasion in Taupo, of course, a wonderful place! So it is good to be here today to recap on the bill. The main purpose of the bill is to maintain public confidence in the provision of legal services, to protect consumers, and to recognise the status of the professions that provide those services. It removes unnecessary regulation from the legal service industry and replaces it with a more efficient regulatory framework that will give the public greater confidence in the legal profession. I am confident that that will, indeed, be the outcome of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI do want to note the impetus for reform in this area that came from the New Zealand Law Society. I would like to acknowledge the many hours of work that the New Zealand Law Society has dedicated to the development of the bill, and the patience with which its members have waited for the enactment, and more than once sitting in the gallery of this House for that purpose. I think it is particularly appropriate that I acknowledge and mention Ian Haynes and Christine Grice, both former presidents of the society; Chris Darlow, the current president; and Alan Ritchie, the executive director, for their tireless efforts to see this bill through to its conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe bill introduced the occupation of conveyancers to New Zealand. But I think it is again important to acknowledge the history. It has its origins in this context in the 1997 Conveyancers Bill introduced into this House by my predecessor, the Hon Phil Goff. A new Society of Conveyancers will be established to regulate this new occupation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EA modern regulatory framework is provided through the bill for the legal profession. It establishes the New Zealand Law Society as that regulatory arm of the profession. The bill will create a professional environment for lawyers and licensed conveyancers while at the same time protecting the public from negligent or incompetent lawyers or licensed conveyancers. Many areas of work that have been traditionally reserved for lawyers will now be opened up to greater competition, meaning that over time there will be greater choice for consumers about where and from whom they purchase their legal services. The bill significantly improves the existing complaints and discipline regimes for lawyers. An independent legal complaints review officer will be appointed who will assume an ombudsman-like role in hearing complaints against lawyers and conveyancers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill both for the public and legal service providers. The introduction of licensed conveyancers is significant. This new occupational framework for lawyers and conveyancers is an excellent example of co-regulation at work. It combines the benefits of industry self-regulation, flexibility, innovation, and industry buy-in with sufficient regulatory oversight to maintain appropriate consumer confidence. The reforms contained in this bill are fundamental and, in my view, well overdue. It is therefore with some considerable satisfaction that I welcome its third reading and commend this bill to the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a233eb16ac544888750018e166fd525\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0ad3d58c82344e9af6732183b743401\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000391\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 1 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0d1333f9a484f8baff11a64b97abe4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0d1333f9a484f8baff11a64b97abe4f\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in opposition to the Education Amendment Bill. I will be focusing on the regulatory regime for the early childhood sector, and it seems to me that this bill is all about unnecessary regulation\u2014and, in fact, far too much regulation\u2014especially in the early childhood sector. I have to say that National\u2019s top priority in education is the children. It is not the systems, it is not the unions; it is the children. I rise to speak in opposition to this bill because it focuses not on the needs of the children, of whatever age, but I believe it adds more bureaucracy, it adds more regulation, and it adds yet more sanitisation of our children\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EAs I said, I want to focus on early childhood education, and I make the following points. I refer to section 317(2), inserted by clause 43: \u201CRegulations made under subsection (1) may (without limitation) do all or any of the following: (a) prescribe minimum standards relating to premises, facilities, programmes of education, practices in relation to children\u2019s learning and development, implementation of the curriculum framework, communication and consultation with parents, the operation or administration of those services, or any of them, to be complied with to ensure the health, comfort, care, education, and safety of children attending licensed early childhood services:\u201D. I probably would contemplate and ask that while the early childhood educators are filling in forms, who is actually looking after the kids? It is all very well describing practices in relation to children\u2019s learning development, but should not and would not it be a good thing for the teachers\u2014the early childhood educators\u2014to be actually out there, doing it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EEarly childhood centres are very busy places. I should know. I have been in a number of them as a parent, and also as the local member. They are lively places, they are noisy places, they are smelly places\u2014as my colleague Tau Henare pointed out when speaking to this bill\u2014and they are very happy places. When parents drop their children off at an early childhood centre what they really need to know is that the teachers care for their kids and look after them. They need to know that the early childhood educators at these licensed centres are not forever filling in forms, are not overly spending time\u2014wasting time, I would suggest\u2014in a cramped office, because that is what it invariably is, accounting for themselves, measuring, reporting, and prescribing minimum standards. We want our early childhood educators, the people who are looking after our kids, to be out there, with our kids, playing with them, reading to them, reading with them, talking to them, and singing with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThis bill proposes to impose extra costs on early childhood centres\u2014costs in time, costs in money, and costs in teacher resources. I am concerned about section 317(2)(b), inserted by clause 43, which authorises \u201Cthe Secretary, after consultation with those organisations that appear to the Secretary to be representative of persons likely to be substantially affected by these regulations, to prescribe criteria to be used by the Secretary to assess compliance with the minimum standards imposed by these regulations:\u201D. So it is not the parents who are making the regulations and minimum standards for early childhood centres, it is not the parents of the children who are making decisions about the care of their kids, but a ministry representative. The ministry will have the ability to make regulations that take responsibility away from Parliament. I do not think that a bureaucrat is the best person to set standards for the care of my child. I think that as a parent I need to have a very strong say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EHere is a basic principle. All of us are in danger of regulating all the fun and risk out of childhood. We must protect our children from harm; I believe that is an absolute given. We must, as parents and educators, protect our children but we must not, at the same time, wrap them in cotton wool\u2014which is what I believe this bill attempts to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWhen I was in local government we had ever-changing playground regulations to deal with. It seemed that those regulations changed at least annually, and probably it felt like 6-monthly. I will tell members what happened to the Oamaru playground, which is the playground that I took my three young children to, to spend a Sunday afternoon. It used to be full of playground equipment, set in the most beautiful Oamaru gardens. Over time, because of the playground regulations forever changing, the old tractor went. It had been there for a number of years, cemented into the ground. All the moving parts had been stopped from moving. The tractor went because it was too dangerous for our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42a9eaab7924776b258086e6547f66e\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: How many children were being hurt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215946326bc264b4eae628043f5ad940c\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! I never heard of a single child being hurt. I can say that my kids loved that tractor, as did many other children. Next, the old roundabout went. I think they call them a hurdy-gurdy. My kids used to have a ball on that thing. They used to go round and round on it until they felt really sick. They loved that, but it went. The monkey bars went. Horrors! Children might have fallen on to the ground, on to the grass, so the bars had to go. Worst of all, in my view the very saddest, worst thing that we, as the local authority, did to our playground was to chop off the lower limbs of the trees so that kids could not climb them. Do members know why? Because they might have fallen out of them. Where are we going with this? I believe that the bill embodies that attitude of taking the fun and the challenge out of childhood. I need to reiterate that we must protect and cherish our children\u2014that is an absolute given. But I believe we are going too far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWe all acknowledge that early childhood teachers must be well supported and well trained. We also acknowledge that early childhood centres must be comfortable, warm, safe, and welcoming. However, I turn to section 313, inserted by clause 43, \u201CAdministrative requirements\u201D. Again I will read it because I believe it illustrates a point: \u201CThe service provider for every licensed early childhood service must keep, and make available to the Secretary on request,\u2014(a) a register of the children who attend or have attended the service, specifying the date of birth of each;\u201D, that is OK, \u201C(b) a record of the attendance of children at the service;\u201D, that is reasonable, \u201C(c) a record of all fees and other charges paid in respect of children\u2019s attendance at the service;\u201D, that is OK, and \u201C(d) evidence that parents of children attending the service have regularly examined the attendance record;\u201D. Why is that necessary? I think that is another example of the onerous requirements under the bill. I continue: \u201C(e) Also provide any other records that are necessary to enable the service\u2019s performance to be monitored adequately.\u201D What other records do we really need? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EFinally, I contend that this bill does nothing for children. We know that children who have a good early childhood education are more adaptable when they start school and are more likely to successfully pass through the school system, to go on to further training, and to lead satisfying, useful lives. The Education Amendment Bill does nothing to contribute to children\u2019s education; rather, it makes a huge contribution to piles and piles of useless reporting, hours and hours of useless form-filling, and further unnecessary administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022239128efb7a24bc8b3a52f7f825a6471\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Education and Science Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c3dd944b1c4e4ea48356183d5764c3b2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022051a365a5f234f058e3cd469dd40d06b\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e109fc0dd20548de92810ae91f1edfb6\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002262673f39461c45ac9278d4c23f7ee612\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262673f39461c45ac9278d4c23f7ee612\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. I would like to thank the Justice and Electoral Committee for its careful consideration of the bill. I want to note that I accept all the committee\u2019s recommended amendments, and am confident they will enhance the overall operation of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) represents the second phase of this Government\u2019s reforms of the legal aid scheme. The first phase was initiated by the Legal Services Act 2000, which established the Legal Services Agency. The agency is responsible for the efficient and cost-effective administration of the legal aid scheme. This bill updates the eligibility criteria for legal aid. It also introduces a new repayments and debt management regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI turn now to the changes to the bill recommended by the committee. The committee has recommended changes, first, to the criminal merits test. The test, as introduced by the bill, represents a significant improvement over the previous tests, which provided little guidance to legal aid applicants or to decision makers. The new test clarifies that the interests of justice will require a grant of aid where a person is charged with an offence for which the maximum term of imprisonment is 6 months or more. For less serious matters, the bill lists the various considerations that the agency must weigh when deciding whether it is in the interests of justice to grant legal aid. The committee recommends adding another factor to the list of relevant considerations. This allows the agency to take into account whether an applicant has any previous convictions when deciding whether the interests of justice require a grant of aid. I support this proposal, as previous convictions can be relevant to assessing the likely sentencing consequences for the applicant if convicted of a further charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EImprovements to the civil eligibility tests, including the merits test for certain family proceedings, have been proposed by the committee. The merits test has been reformulated to ensure that it operates, in effect, as a filter whereby aid may be refused if a grant is not justified. Again, I welcome this change. It will ensure that aid is granted only in appropriate cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe committee has also recommended allowing 15 days for the receipt of legal aid applications, or amended applications. This will allow sufficient time for submission of valid applications that have not been received by the Legal Services Agency due to circumstances beyond the control of, or not anticipated by, either the aided person or his or her lawyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EAn improvement to the repayment provisions has also been proposed by the committee. This will ensure that successful litigants who receive proceeds from proceedings that are insufficient to cover the costs of legal aid do not end up owing larger debts than if they had not received any proceeds at all. I support this change, which will ensure that the repayments scheme operates as it was actually intended to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe committee has recommended two narrow exceptions to legal professional privilege, and I think there was considerable discussion of this matter in the committee. The first enables an applicant\u2019s lawyer to provide the Legal Services Agency with information about, first, any changes of address or any increase in income or disposable capital that may affect the applicant\u2019s eligibility for legal aid. The second exception enables an aided person\u2019s lawyer to advise the Legal Services Agency if the aided person is trying to avoid making payments out of proceeds. These recommendations reflect the fact that legal aid professional privilege is that of the client, not of the lawyer. The new provisions, therefore, deem an aided person to have waived legal professional privilege for the purposes of those two narrow exceptions. I support those changes, which clarify the exceptions to legal professional privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI also support the committee\u2019s amendments to the merits test for the funding of private mediation. The amendments provide that the agency may fund certain forms of private mediation for civil proceedings, if satisfied that the specified criteria are met. This proposal does not affect the arrangements for criminal legal aid for legal services in respect of restorative justice conferences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EChanges have been recommended to the provisions for costs awards against legally aided persons. The committee considered that it was too limiting to allow a court to award costs only where there was misconduct by the aided person in the course of proceedings. It recommended that the current exceptional circumstances threshold be reinstated, and that the new list of relevant considerations as introduced by the bill also be retained. A provision is proposed to allow the courts to specify costs that the Legal Services Agency may consider paying where no exceptional circumstances exist to justify an award against the aided person. This reinstates a provision in the current legislation. I welcome both of those changes, which will serve, I think, to improve the manner in which the costs provisions will operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E The committee has clarified the circumstances in which interest will be payable. If a person defaults on a debt due\u2014such as a weekly repayment\u2014interest will be chargeable over all debt owed by the aided person to the agency. Again, I support this change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EA new provision providing immunity to Legal Aid Review Panel members has also been recommended by the committee. The immunity will protect panel members acting in good faith from legal proceedings in relation to decisions made by the panel. I commend this change, which will support the recruitment and retention of panel members. The change has been proposed to ensure that the resources of an applicant\u2019s spouse or partner will not be treated as those of an applicant if the parties are living apart. I consider this change to be a useful clarification of the existing provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe committee has also made a recommendation that requires the agency to review from time to time its rates of payment in respect of legal services provided by listed providers on a contract for service. I have indicated that a review will be considered after the implementation of this bill. This change is consistent with that undertaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EFinally, I thank all the members of the Justice and Electoral Committee for their valuable contribution, which has resulted, I think, in a number of useful improvements to the bill. The bill will enable significantly more New Zealanders to have access to justice. It will also enhance the transparency and consistency of decision making and improve the efficient operation of the scheme as a whole. The costs of additional grants of aid will be partly offset by requiring a higher proportion of legal aid recipients to repay some or all of the costs of their grants of legal aid. The overall effect of these reforms is to increase the pool of those eligible for legal aid from around 765,000 to 1.2 million people. I anticipate that the bill, if passed promptly by the House, will commence in around March 2007. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00227bc4f81b09b44145a4994492588506eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bc4f81b09b44145a4994492588506eb\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Mr Assistant Speaker for the opportunity of contributing to the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2). I am joined by my caucus colleagues from the National Party in opposing this legislation, and in the short time that is available to me I wish to highlight why National has concerns about it. We are strongly in favour of legal aid\u2014and I need to say that from the outset\u2014but we have reservations about this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d469e1b9785844a986fd19c663b02a18\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: You may need it one day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ded143e934146799ffd67d4b6ac8b16\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: As I listen to the comments across the House, I am reminded of that line that the courts, like the Ritz Hotel, are open to everyone. That, in my view, well exemplifies the problems: that the cost of legal process is high, and legal aid is a critical element in the functioning of an effective legal system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EOne of the things that the present Government has done\u2014and I think it has done well\u2014is to identify two justice sector outcomes. The second of those outcomes is this: \u201CA fairer, more credible and more effective justice system, being a system in which people\u2019s interactions are underpinned by the rule of law and justice services are more equitable, credible and accessible.\u201D So the issue is whether the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) meets that test\u2014the only relevant test in these two justice sector outcomes. Sadly, I think the bill does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhat the Justice and Electoral Committee sought to do, against the background of the submissions that it heard, was to encourage Labour members to see how it might be possible\u2014in the context of legal aid\u2014to improve the justice system. There were two areas where we felt that the committee fell substantially short. The first was in connection with the rules as to eligibility. I believe that it is absolutely critical when someone is seeking legal aid that there are, on the face of the statute, clear messages as to whether he or she will be entitled to that legal aid. That is why National maintained, right from the very beginning, that the rules as to eligibility for legal aid in both civil and criminal proceedings are not clear and are substantially discretionary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second area\u2014which other speakers from National will take up\u2014is the need to fairly remunerate lawyers who undertake legal aid work. From a personal perspective, I believe that the provision of legal aid may well encompass a lot more than a legal aid applicant receiving legal services paid for by the State from the lawyer of his or her choice. Although National has some doubts about the success of the public defender scheme, at least it can be said that there is a system\u2014on a wholly different basis from what I have just said\u2014that may have some chance of working, albeit it has attracted hugely critical comment from the legal profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI offer the view that there are other models that should be looked at. In the past I have suggested in this debating chamber a circumstance where a group of lawyers\u2014perhaps a group of barristers or perhaps a law firm\u2014tendered for a chunk of legal aid work, and, in respect of awarding that chunk of work, the Legal Services Agency set some very clearly defined parameters in terms of quality, performance, and cost. We need to look at such innovative structures, because the cost of legal aid is not inconsiderable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn recent times, the New Zealand Law Society has taken a very active look at legal aid rates, and it has done that in the context of a principle that is perhaps not well understood in this House\u2014the principle known as equality of arms. It is the concept that the defence should be as well resourced as the Crown. These are difficult issues, of course, to attain in practice, but that should surely be objective. One of the points that the Law Society has made, I think with some strength, is to argue that Crown legal aid rates\u2014the rates that are paid to the Crown solicitors acting under warrant from the Solicitor-General\u2014are way out of kilter with legal aid rates paid to defending lawyers. There is little doubt about that. Whether there should be an equality in those rates is one issue, but I would say that certainly there is a case to bring those rates up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b735501e86d847ee9327354925cf5425\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: There is a case law on that. The case law doesn\u2019t agree with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9682eda9b0d4caba07df5ce4eb85735\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: As I am sure we will hear from people like Mr Fairbrother, who is making his usual, useful contribution across the House, those legal aid rates have not gone up since 1996. That, surely, cannot be appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI have spoken about eligibility for legal aid primarily in a criminal context. I would also say that this issue of eligibility and its discretionary elements similarly affects civil legal aid. When we talk of legal aid we generally seem to talk about it in a criminal setting. The bill says that the basis of a grant for legal aid in criminal matters is subject to an overriding consideration of \u201Cthe interests of justice\u201D. An attempt has been made to identify those relevant criteria, but the problem is that the criteria are subject to the fact that, as new section 8(4), inserted by clause 5, states: \u201Cthe Agency may have regard to any other circumstances that, in the opinion of the Agency, are relevant.\u201D In the case of a grant for legal aid in civil matters, discretionary wording is also employed. That is why National members think entitlement for legal aid should be clear on the face of the statute\u2014so that applicants know whether legal aid will be available to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn speaking against the bill I am not suggesting that there are not parts of the bill that reflect improvement. They do. There are minor aspects of the bill that are an improvement. But, overall, if we look at what I have acknowledged as the laudable justice sector outcomes of the Government, we see that the bill falls far short. It is a pity that the chairperson of the Justice and Electoral Committee, on the first bill she has had to substantially steer through the House, has not been able to secure support from National. National\u2019s position in respect of access to justice is absolutely unequivocal. We have said on a number of occasions across the House that we despair of much that is in Labour\u2019s policy, because it simply does not measure up to the access to justice criteria. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI look forward to Mr Fairbrother\u2019s comments on the bill, because it is fair to say that he offered insights in the context of submissions on the bill, and I hope he will be brave enough to utter them in the House. But I fear he will not be brave enough to do so. I fear that this man, who has had substantial experience in the legal aid arena, will not be prepared to say to the nation and to the parliamentarians in the House what he said in the Justice and Electoral Committee about what he would like to happen. If he did, there would be unanimity across the House, because his views so accurately mirrored those of National. But that is a matter for Mr Fairbrother to decide. He can call across the House as much as he likes, but a solid and sustained contribution from him would be infinitely more welcome. That is why National opposes the bill, and when we come to office in 2008\u2014or before, and that seems increasingly likely\u2014there will be changes to this legislation that I know Mr Fairbrother will unequivocally support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc15c1fb13f946ea84f9d21b5774c682\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc15c1fb13f946ea84f9d21b5774c682\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E As the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee, I commend the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) to the House, and say what a pleasure it was to work on the bill. We received seven submissions to consider, and they were very constructive and well put together, and equally we heard four submissions, which put a very common-sense case to the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThe key thing about the bill is that it actually builds on the Legal Services Act of 2000, which established the Legal Services Agency. The bill ensures better access to legal representation, and therefore better access to justice. The principle of access to justice ought not to depend on a person\u2019s ability to pay, and that is very much the view of the Government. The bill updates the criteria for eligibility for legal aid, which have not been revised since 1987. The bill also introduces a new repayments and debt - management regime, with the end result that more New Zealanders will now qualify for legal aid. The cost of the additional grants will be offset by requiring a higher proportion of legal aid recipients to repay some or all of their grant, depending on their ability to make that repayment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThis is a very constructive bill, and I am really proud to stand as the chair of the select committee to speak in favour of it. I would like to take a few minutes to acknowledge the other members of the committee\u2014my colleagues Russell Fairbrother and Ann Hartley, and Nandor Tanczos from the Green Party, for their very constructive contributions that were helpful at all times. I also acknowledge the National Party. Although it opposes the bill, I take a bit of time to acknowledge Christopher Finlayson. He gave some really constructive and sensible advice during the select committee process, and I thank him for that. [Interruption] I say to Dr Worth that there is an irony, in that rates went down for legal aid lawyers under National\u2014and I challenge him to justify that statement\u2014so for him to stand in the House and suddenly become the champion of the legal profession, in wanting to ensure those lawyers are properly paid, is a bit rich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EBut to return to the key point, I say this is a great bill for the Government and for New Zealand. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002216c36284477a48a09d2593d80fddc55e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c36284477a48a09d2593d80fddc55e\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for Waitakere for her kind words, and I congratulate her on the way she chaired the debates in the Justice and Electoral Committee. It was a good debate. Unfortunately, the outcome is very disappointing, and that is why the National Party opposes the second reading of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet us go back to section 3 of the principal Act. Section 3(a) provides that one of the purposes of the Act is to promote \u201Caccess to justice\u201D\u2014a very important phrase\u2014\u201Cby\u2014(a) providing a legal aid scheme that assists people who have insufficient means to pay for legal services to nonetheless have access to them;\u201D. National takes issue with the Government and the minor parties on the issue of access to justice, because the bill fails to deal with that fundamental issue, and that is why we oppose it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EDr Worth has outlined our concerns with the criteria for the grant of civil and criminal legal aid, and I will not address that. There are two matters I wish to address, the most important one being the question of access to justice from the point of view of the proper and fair remuneration of lawyers who undertake legal aid work. The cheap shot\u2014the easy retort\u2014is that National is raising that question because it is concerned about the pockets of lawyers. That is not the truth, and that is not the correct position. We are concerned about ensuring\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222cfc103da3e4646a866826ecb9cc86a\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Can you believe that face?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c039f4e7c8e84ed78b17c4a5876f9049\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The poor old member for Otaki\u2014the boy wonder\u2014has to interject all the time. If he would listen, instead of acting like a buffoon, he might actually learn something. We are not concerned with the proper remuneration of lawyers for the sake of it; we are concerned with ensuring that lawyers are properly paid so that the right lawyers undertake this important work on behalf of those who cannot afford it. The second issue I will address, if I have time, is the new provisions relating to the liability of legal aided persons for costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs Dr Worth said, we are concerned that the Government continually refuses to address the need to look at the remuneration of lawyers. The current legal aid rates have been the same since 1996. Let us look at the position of Crown solicitors by comparison\u2014and I would welcome Mr Fairbrother\u2019s response to this important issue\u2014because under the Crown solicitors\u2019 regulations Crown solicitors who act on behalf of the police, in prosecuting legally aided defendants, are paid much more than those lawyers who defend legal aided defendants. What is more, as Mr Fairbrother would know from his distinguished career as a criminal defence lawyer, Crown prosecutors who are working in law firms not only get paid at Crown solicitor rates but they also have the advantage of the police doing much of the preparatory work, including the briefing of key witnesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet us look at a comparison between the top rate paid to Crown solicitors and the top rate paid to legal aid lawyers. The top rate for Crown solicitors is $192 per hour plus GST. That sum is reviewed on a regular basis\u2014I understand it is done every year, when the Crown Law Office arranges for an expert accountant to review it, so the rate is updated at least every 12 months. I ask members to compare that rate of $192 an hour plus GST with the top rate for legal aid lawyers, which is $130 per hour, inclusive of GST. So that means we are dealing with an effective rate of $121 an hour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EMembers should consider an incident that occurred not long ago, in which there was a 3-week criminal trial. Documents were provided to counsel for the defendant, who was on the legal aid rate, on a disk. Once the documents were transferred from the disk into folders, there were 19 folders of documents. It was a complex trial. The clerk who collated the documents was paid $151.87 per hour, which was more than was paid to counsel involved. So who contributes more to justice: is it the lawyer or is it the clerk who collates the documents? There are some real anomalies and the Government wilfully refuses to address them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, who suffers? Well, ultimately, it is the poor who need access to legal services who suffer, the justice system suffers, and we all suffer. Senior lawyers are not doing as much legal aid work as they were a decade ago. That means that junior and inexperienced lawyers are starting to do the work. What does that mean? That means too many lawyers are doing work where they are simply out of their depth and, indeed, an increasing phenomenon when trials go wrong is that defendants will appeal to the Court of Appeal, and their grounds of appeal are that their lawyers were incompetent. That is happening because lawyers are out of their depth and are not doing work at the right level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThat comes back to the point of inadequacy of remuneration. Too many trials go wrong and there are too many appeals where the primary ground of appeal is trial incompetence. The appeal system becomes clogged up with needless appeals, and the criminal justice system does not function properly. So there is a false economy here on the part of the Government. It is much wiser to pay service providers more, to ensure that the work is done competently by lawyers with the requisite experience\u2014who are sufficiently experienced to do a good job\u2014rather than simply pay this derisory rate, which means that inexperienced lawyers get involved in those cases. In only the last few days we have seen examples of where judges have had to intervene and say that they are sorry, but the counsel appearing before them are simply not up to the mark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt is a real problem\u2014and it does raise New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issues. I would be grateful if my colleague Mr Fairbrother could perhaps address that issue, because there are certain fundamental rights involved, especially for persons who are charged with offences. Those persons are entitled to have the right to adequate time and facilities to prepare a defence, they have the right to instruct a lawyer, and they have the right to receive legal assistance without costs, if the interests of justice so require and the persons do not have sufficient means. Those Bill of Rights issues do need to be addressed, and I invite Mr Fairbrother to look at those very carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe first female law lord, Baroness Hale, recently emphasised that democracy is founded on the principle that each individual has equal value. Treating some as automatically less valuable than others not only causes them pain and distress but it also violates their dignity as human beings. People have a fundamental right to a fair trial and to access to justice. That fundamental principle is being undermined by this Government. That is reflected in this legislation, because lawyers are not being properly remunerated, with the consequences that I have described. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point\u2014which I will address very briefly because my time is almost up\u2014is to express my concern, as someone who has dealt with legal aided plaintiffs over the years, that clause 26, which deals with the liability of legal aided persons for costs, does not really address the critical issue. In effect, it is virtually impossible to obtain costs from the Legal Services Agency, even in circumstances where the conduct of the case by the legal aided plaintiff has been lamentable, to say the least. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt is no good to say that the cases can be struck out at an early stage, because no judge ever strikes out proceedings these days. People are obliged to expend huge amounts of money defending cases\u2014often utterly misguided cases\u2014brought by people who are receiving legal aid. Then, at the end of the day\u2014even in the instance where the court says that if the person was not receiving legal aid the court would be prepared to award costs\u2014the Legal Services Agency does not pay out. So clause 26 really does give me cause for concern. In the very near future I hope that a National Government will review that clause, as well. But at the end of the day, these are major questions of access to justice, and the Government is ducking them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e260d0058af24b07ac8b2566a2eedeb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e260d0058af24b07ac8b2566a2eedeb4\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of New Zealand First in this Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) debate, and I just signal from the start that New Zealand First will support the second reading. We look forward with interest to the discussion during the Committee of the whole House where, no doubt, the issues that have been raised by the National Party, in particular, will be represented with Supplementary Order Papers and supporting debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ELet me signal quite clearly right from the word go that New Zealand First can see clearly through the very thin veil of the explanation given by National Party members as to why they are opposing this bill. It is very clear to us. In the commentary on the bill, the second numbered point of the National Party minority report states: \u201Cthe Government has refused to address the need to fairly remunerate lawyers who undertake legal aid work.\u201D, and we have just heard the explanation given by Mr Finlayson, who has expressed exactly those concerns. So what does that mean? It means the National Party wants lawyers to get more money. It is as simple as that. The National Party wants to increase the amount of legal aid that is paid out to the criminal fraternity. I was hoping that the lawyer and political correctness eradicator, Dr Wayne Mapp, would take a call on this bill because, after all, it is he who will eliminate political correctness from the planet. He could start in this House right now by getting his own people to cut right to the chase and talk about what they speak of in plain terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that many of these lawyers are defending the criminal fraternity, and we can talk about the man who defends the Road Knights down in Christchurch and defends the highly suspect activities of a certain businessman who is opening up drug shops in Kaiopoi. Now, it is one thing to give legal aid to a person who is on his or her first offence, who is not known as a recidivist offender, and who has got into a position where he or she is facing charges and has an absolute need for a fair trial, but it is another thing to be fronting up for the twentieth or thirtieth time, backing some piece of\u2014I am not allowed to use the word in this House\u2014but defending some member of the criminal fraternity and helping him get off. We all know, and we do not have to talk to too many police prosecutors to find out, how this game is played. Many a Mercedes has been bought and many a house has been bought in the plush suburbs of New Zealand by very wealthy lawyers who have made their killing on the back of legal aid, defending members of the criminal fraternity who do not learn by their mistakes and who, in fact, consider court appearances as being just an occupational hazard that they must bear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244db8b9eddc043068d9ee48077b4436d\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a necessary part of doing business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2bf59a23a5f492a869cfb735bb5cd21\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is a necessary part; it is part of the risk management of doing the type of business that they do\u2014dealing in methamphetamines, supplying marijuana to kids, and running prostitution rackets and extortion rackets. I would love to know how much money Mr Ruth down in Christchurch has had out of legal aid, defending the sort of excrement that he supports walking the streets of Christchurch\u2014be it Road Knights, be it White Power, be it Epitaph Riders, be it Hell\u2019s Angels, or be it whoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EA society is judged by the way in which it treats its most vulnerable and by the quality of justice it lends to those who are brought before our courts. But we have to ask ourselves whether there is not a line where we say there is a limit, and where we say that those people are recidivist offenders who appear time and time again\u2014and the poor, old taxpayer continues to wear the lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ELet us not be blind to the tactics and strategies that some of those State-funded lawyers use for their clients. For instance, client Joe Bloggs from the Road Knights commits a crime for which there are dozens of witnesses and for which the evidence is clear. On the advice of his legal aid lawyer, he pleads not guilty. He tells the police and the court that he will defend the case. The police have to go through all the rigmarole of producing evidence, of disclosure, and of depositions\u2014the whole lot\u2014only to find that he has realised he has run the road as far as he can, and, on the advice of his lawyer, he pleads guilty and mitigating circumstances and expresses how remorseful he is for the crime he committed. We can sit down and tally up the hundreds of hours of police time and the hours taken by his lawyer on his behalf, and how quick and simple and correct the right path might have been had his lawyer simply said to him: \u201CLook, mate, you have told me you are guilty. Let\u2019s just get this done and dusted, take your medicine, and move on.\u201D But, oh no, that is not now the pattern. Everybody knows how busy the courts are. Everybody knows how long cases will be delayed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe only question New Zealand First is left with when we see statements like this\u2014\u201C\u2026 the Government has refused to address the need to fairly remunerate lawyers who undertake legal work.\u201D\u2014is that National should tell us upfront how much it wants lawyers to be paid for legal aid work. At least if we had a figure on it, if the National Party could put up a dollar rate per hour so that we could debate it, we might be able to move forward. But we cannot, because no figure has been floated. It is just: \u201CWe want more money.\u201D Well, tell me how much more. I am involved with M\u0101ori business. We run a rather large and successful M\u0101ori agriculture-based business in the Waikato. Our yearly plans are based on business plans whereby we budget how much we are going to spend in each and every sector of the business. So I say to National members, pray tell the House how much money they want the Government to budget per annum for legal aid, and what that is based on. What is the hourly rate that National now wants all lawyers who suck off the hind teat of the taxpayer, picking up legal aid money, to earn per hour, per day, per week, per month, per year? The last time I looked I thought that about $100 million was going into their pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThat is on the back of tax cuts for the very same people, because National also wants to give high-paying, high-earning lawyers a big tax cut, as well. National members should tell us what the taxpayer will be expected to pay. I can see a farming man opposite shaking his head. I thought that that man, in National, would keep his mouth very, very tightly closed when it comes to shelling out money to lawyers, given the difficulty that the farming community faces when it comes up against lawyers who use the Resource Management Act to stop farming businesses from developing. Imagine that right now its current partners, the M\u0101ori Party and the Greens, want legal aid made available on a wider basis for people who challenge the Resource Management Act and resource consents, because, clearly, they cannot afford it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESo I ask National members now to tell me not only how much money they want the lawyers who are currently representing the criminal fraternity\u2014the recidivist offenders who continue to fill our jails and who are going back there in increasing numbers\u2014to be paid, but also how much of that legal aid money they now want to go to the Greens to help them fight resource consents against farmers and people in the agricultural industry who are simply trying to make a hard-earned living out of their lifelong and intergenerational family investment. I tell the member opposite not to shake his head at me. He knows exactly that that is the issue that National has not thought through. I simply say to National members that we will be listening during the Committee stage. We will listen intently to the debate on the Supplementary Order Papers that no doubt they will wish to put up. But I ask National to give us an hourly rate per lawyer, a daily rate, and an annual budget so that we can work with it and we might then be able to make a decision in a very informed manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00228de3b6f2036341479e6ece51cd0d27eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228de3b6f2036341479e6ece51cd0d27eb\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is not about lawyers. This bill is about access to justice. It increases\u2014in fact, it nearly doubles\u2014those eligible for legal aid to some 1.2 million New Zealanders. Yes, it increases the financial threshold for legal aid eligibility and, yes, it has some good intentions, but accessibility to justice is two-sided. It also requires that there are sufficient providers of those legal services, and it is very debatable whether there are sufficient lawyers who are prepared, and who are adequately experienced, to do that work. This is not just about the remuneration for lawyers undertaking legal aid work. This is about there being enough lawyers willing to do this legal aid work for nearly twice the number of legal aid recipients now. This is not a new problem, but it is a problem that has not been addressed in this bill, and it is a problem that certainly needs to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe have heard it said that legal aid rates for lawyers decreased in 1996 and have not changed since. Those rates are 10 years out of date. This means that the quality of service to clients may be compromised. Clients\u2019 access to justice may be compromised. This bill, which advocates access to justice, simply does not address one of the main barriers to such access. We have heard that in the criminal jurisdiction legal aid defence counsel are paid less than Crown prosecutors. This results in inequality\u2014a threat to the fundamental right to a fair trial. In a criminal trial, the legal aid lawyers, who as officers of the court represent their clients to the very best of their ability, are at a significant disadvantage\u2014and their clients are therefore at a significant disadvantage\u2014to their prosecuting counterparts. Their resources are fewer. They do not have the resources of the police in support. In some cases more work is actually required of the defence counsel but they cannot do it. Prosecutors are allocated more paid hours for preparation. The amount of time for preparation of defence for which legal aid lawyers are paid is often unrealistically limited, and they often have to accept an unreasonably high workload in order to cover expenses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESo what does this mean? It means that fewer lawyers are taking on legal aid work. Legal aid work is not compulsory. It limits the choice of clients to a lawyer. It increases the likelihood of less experienced counsel undertaking legal aid work, with greater risk of errors and less skilled judgment. It increases the likelihood of consequent appeals at even more cost. Because legal work has become so unremunerative, many experienced practitioners are withdrawing from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI will give members two anecdotal examples. Firstly, in November 2005 a local law society sent out this notice to all firms: \u201CThe Family Law Committee has been advised that a number of law firms are no longer undertaking family law legal aid work due to their increased workload. We understand some firms are turning away a significant number of clients because of this. In many instances the firm cannot refer the member of the public to another law firm as they have no knowledge as to what firms do undertake legal aid work. The society would like to ascertain which firms in the region are undertaking family law legal aid work.\u201D The response to that notice was that 30 firms out of a total of 306 firms\u2014that is, less than 10 percent\u2014said they still persisted with legal aid work. That is a real issue in relation to access to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESecondly, I would like to quote from a letter dated 7 March 2006 from a law firm: \u201CIt is with regret that we advise that this firm will no longer undertake Legal Services work for new matters. We are prepared to continue with our existing aided clients until their matters are completed, particularly as we are aware the remaining legal aid providers in [the area] would not be able to act on many of the matters as they will be in a conflict situation. We have reached this decision for the following reasons: (1) the rate of payment is uneconomic; (2) the difficulty in getting extensions to grant for all but the most exceptional circumstances; (3) the cost of managing systems to ensure compliance with your requirements; (4) the unreasonableness of some of those requirements; (5) the lack of funding for aspects of file and case management deemed not acceptable to the Legal Services Agency; (6) the pressure from clients to provide legal services to a standard which legal services will not fund\u2014those expectations are not usually unreasonable\u2014and (7) to some extent there is an expectation from the Family Court for us to provide legal services to a standard not funded by the Legal Services Agency. It is with regret that we come to this decision as we as providers have strived to provide a high standard of service to clients who cannot afford to pay. However, we do not consider we should continue to provide these services at our cost or expect our paying clients to cross-subsidise the legally aided client. We are acutely aware that our actions will limit access to justice for a significant number of people in our community, particularly women with children. In the final analysis that is not our problem but one which needs political intervention to correct.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis issue does need political intervention to address the problem, but this bill does not do that. If we are to intervene in any meaningful way to ensure due access to justice, then, among other things, the issue of legal aid rates and parity with Crown prosecuting rates must be addressed. In the submission of the New Zealand Law Society, it was noted that in some areas \u201Capplicants are having difficulty finding legal aid providers who are willing to accept domestic violence cases. Applicants seeking protection orders are reported as having to \u2018shop around\u2019 for a lawyer.\u201D Yet is that not exactly the situation where quick, proper access to legal representation is essential? Victims of domestic violence do not have the luxury of shopping around. They have a desperate situation. They have an immediate situation\u2014one that simply must be addressed immediately. It cannot wait for one of the few overly worked, underpaid, and perhaps under-experienced lawyers to maybe become available to do the work. This is not access to justice, this is not equitable, and neither is it credible or accessible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ENeither is it related solely to lawyers; it is about the clients, the domestic clients\u2014not just the gang members, not just the criminal clients, but the domestic clients who are desperately in need of some help through the justice system. This bill does not provide that help or that accessibility to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI think it is probably fair to say that, on the whole, lawyers feel an obligation to provide legal aided services as part and parcel of that important issue of access to justice, and that if there is a guaranteed supply of legal aid work, then a lower rate of remuneration may be expected. But it is not justice if one side is given more public money and resources, to fund the prosecution, than the defendant is allocated to defend him or herself. This bill is imbalanced. It is flawed. National opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002270f4f62cb0f4412fba56c32e6ec4ffec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270f4f62cb0f4412fba56c32e6ec4ffec\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E For years M\u0101ori have had to go to court without decent legal representation, and often without legal aid. The Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) says it will change that by making it possible for another 435,000 people to get legal aid, many of whom undoubtedly will be M\u0101ori. The Government is to be commended for its efforts in this regard. The tragedy, of course, is how many M\u0101ori actually wind up in court in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe already know that M\u0101ori get arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and jailed at much higher rates than non-M\u0101ori, confirming last week\u2019s report on human rights practices in New Zealand, which noted a continuing pattern of disproportionate numbers of M\u0101ori on unemployment and welfare rolls, in prison, among school drop-outs, and in infant mortality statistics. In the same week the Ministry of Justice also released its prison forecast, which projected that by 2010 M\u0101ori will be the most imprisoned people per capita in the world. That was said by our own Ministry of Justice. It is a statistic that bears repeating: by 2010 M\u0101ori will be the most imprisoned people per capita in the whole world. So yes, like it or not, the way things are going M\u0101ori will certainly need legal aid like never before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo when the M\u0101ori Party looks at this Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2), we ask how this bill will change things for M\u0101ori. In terms of the select committee process, sad to say, only seven submissions were received, only four were heard, and the whole thing was over in less than a day. That is hardly a good look for a Government promoting access to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe changes in this bill are intended to increase the number of legal aid grants and the number of people who can get legal aid, and thereby give people far better access to justice than before. That principle is important, because the M\u0101ori Party does not share the view of other parties in this House that stupidly think that filling up the jails is the measure of the success of our justice system. It is our deepest wish to reduce the number of M\u0101ori who are arrested, convicted, and imprisoned. We want to enhance the mana of all people by promoting a system based more on justice that heals than justice that hammers. Sure, punishment is part of justice\u2014no question\u2014but what is the value of a system that punishes but does not change the offender, except to make him worse? What is the point of a system that actually encourages offenders to be more devious, more brutal, and less caring the next time they offend? Folks, it is not about getting even; it is about getting justice. It is about wh\u0101nau\u2014the wh\u0101nau of the victim and the wh\u0101nau of the offender. Punishing one without properly addressing the other serves no one. It is about taking the next generations into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBut every time I think of that statistic\u2014that by 2010 M\u0101ori will be the most imprisoned people in the world\u2014I know that this bill will not make any real change at all. Mr Assistant Speaker, the M\u0101ori Party supports any genuine attempt to help people get access to justice, but this bill is really just tweaking a system that is intrinsically unsound. It would be great if we could say that this bill could turn round that damning statistic about M\u0101ori being the most imprisoned people in the world by 2010, but I suspect that you, me, and everyone else in this House knows that it ain\u2019t going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EImproving the administration and management of legal aid is a step in the right direction, but even with the best intentions the lawyers one gets when on legal aid are mainly just the legal bunnies, the new lawyers, and their enthusiasm does not compensate for their lack of experience. Experienced lawyers refuse legal aid cases because there is not any money in it, which means that defendants on legal aid get less value than people with a bucket load of money, and how surprising is that? Every M\u0101ori in this House has wh\u0101nau who have been to court with lawyers whose aim seems to be to get their legal aid cases out of the way as soon as they can, often by persuading their clients to plead guilty. I know people who have pleaded guilty because they did not know they could get legal aid in the first place. I also know people who have pleaded guilty because their legal aid lawyers told them it was the best thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EHow do I know this? Because I have been to court many, many times myself, and I have seen the poor, the M\u0101ori, and their Pacific cousins being treated like scum by those who have been charged with trying to help them. I have seen people look despairingly at their lawyers prattling on in the courtroom, hoping they will talk to them, will simply acknowledge them, and I have seen those lawyers simply drone on as if their clients were not even in the room. I have seen people with the desperate look of the innocent turn their heads to the floor when they finally realised that their legal aid lawyers were more interested in their own performance than in the plight of their clients. I have seen people lose their freedom because their bumbling and often uncaring legal aid lawyers were just too bloody lazy to do their job properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b499919fa0f405896b323c75caa038f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is unparliamentary language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79e0122ce0b4af1926ec42dd1a68f80\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Our criminal law is based on the private property values of British and Western history. The bill even suggests that the definition of an applicant\u2019s income is subject to the resources of a spouse or a partner, or of parents, and resources relating to M\u0101ori land. The M\u0101ori Party rejects absolutely the notion that land handed down through collective whakapapa should be divided for consideration of an individual\u2019s income. It is a racist notion that all decent citizens should be appalled at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI also see that the bill aims to determine legal aid based on the likelihood of somebody going to jail. That has to be a little suspect. Does it mean that the Legal Services Agency will be taking over the role of judge and jury and making its decisions before someone even enters a plea? Or is it some screwy notion to deny legal aid to people who may not go to jail\u2014as if that can be determined before pleas are entered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI also note that surveys will be used to monitor progress in the legal aid system. That is all right, but the real measure is not in the administration and management of the system but in reducing reoffending and improving the situation for those who need it most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOf course, one of the major areas of contention\u2014and indeed one of the birthrights of the M\u0101ori Party\u2014the Foreshore and Seabed Act, actually denies M\u0101ori access to legal aid. The bill does nothing to change that. The Foreshore and Seabed Act is actually a criminal denial of the rights of a major sector of our community. No other group in our nation\u2014not the unions, not the employers, not our Asian cousins, not our Pacific relations, and certainly not our P\u0101keh\u0101 whanaunga\u2014except M\u0101ori is denied access to legal aid. I repeat: no other group in our nation except M\u0101ori is denied access to legal aid. How can we in the House\u2014we who represent what is supposed to be an enlightened and educated society, and we who talk about fairness and justice for all\u2014even contemplate an environment where major sectors are denied their rights that generations fought for over so many centuries? Indeed, how can we accept such an abuse of our people\u2019s human rights and move by so glibly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThose are critical issues that the House must address at this level and at every other level in society. Our courts are monocultural, and their language and procedures deny M\u0101ori access to justice. If we are serious about real access, then one of the key issues we need to address is that of cultural bias. In 1988 Moana Jackson of the Wellington M\u0101ori Legal Service reported that M\u0101ori cultural values were not reflected in criminal law. That was confirmed when in 1992 Gina Rudland, the President of the M\u0101ori Law Society, told the Minister of Justice that what was needed was a parallel system that allowed justice to be achieved for M\u0101ori by M\u0101ori. In 1993 Aroha Terry suggested marae trials for child abuse offending. All of those examples suggest that we should explore different justice systems and genuinely take up the idea of M\u0101ori practices. Let us face it, we can hardly do any worse than what we have got now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFor more than 1,000 years M\u0101ori have had their own justice system\u2014one based on concepts of tapu and noa. It recognises people\u2019s responsibility to the wider community, and the community\u2019s responsibility for its members. The Pacific practice of ifoga is similar to M\u0101ori justice. The Navajo people of Great Turtle Island have their own justice system based on Navajo philosophy and procedure, and shared with the State. Over the Tasman, Aboriginal courts and systems are being used to reduce their arrest, conviction, and prison statistics. Indigenous people may not have all the answers, but current systems are obviously not working\u2014not for indigenous people nor for society at large.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe bill is a stopgap\u2014an admirable stopgap, but a stopgap nonetheless. The M\u0101ori Party opposes the bill because, although it purports to address the issue of access to justice, it accepts the ridiculous \u201Cjail \u2018em at all costs\u201D thinking that has led to the spiralling arrest, conviction, and imprisonment rates that have overrun our system; because it does not address the very real need to reduce the reasons behind the fundamental problems in our society; and because it deals with individual rights while continuing to deny M\u0101ori their collective wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi rights\u2014and, in fact, their human right\u2014to the same measure of justice enjoyed by all other citizens in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002227031c1972ac41b694e5cb7266fbd3dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227031c1972ac41b694e5cb7266fbd3dd\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I waited until the honourable member Hone Harawira had finished his speech, but I just need clarification from you as to the rules of the House. I know that there have been some rule changes in the House, but to allow a member simply to stand up and read his speech directly off a laptop, without delivering it from the heart, from the shoulder, as David Lange would have\u2014is that within the Standing Orders today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228140c51191324679a1222173638af99c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. There is a new procedure with the use of laptops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88cd545e2e84eb49e64068178baa755\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I thank you for that. That is all I needed; I did not need to be chastised by you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00223070b6dc7eb8441a8dcefa08be638762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223070b6dc7eb8441a8dcefa08be638762\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise to speak to the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) after Mr Hone Harawira from the M\u0101ori Party. Although the Green Party takes a different approach from that of the M\u0101ori Party to the bill\u2014in that we are supporting its passage through the House\u2014Mr Harawira raised a number of issues that are profoundly important, and that we need to take very seriously in the House. He raised a number of points around the very high proportion of M\u0101ori who are in prison. He alluded to the racism that is inherent in our justice system, whereby the police are much more likely to take notice of young M\u0101ori males than of others and to stop them, question them, and search them. If there is any evidence of wrongdoing, young M\u0101ori males are much more likely than others to be charged and, if convicted, they are then likely to receive a more serious punishment. That pattern runs all the way through the justice system. Mr Harawira was right in saying that the bill does not address that issue in any way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ENeither does the bill address a dysfunctional approach to justice issues that sees the answer to reducing crime as simply locking people in jail, without regard to what we do while they are in there\u2014without regard to any attempts to rehabilitate them\u2014or, more significantly, without regard to the need to invest in our young people, in the early intervention measures that will keep people from committing crime in the first place. I note that the member comes from Northland, where the Government has just spent some $150 million on building a new prison, at the same time as it is closing local schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESo one has to ask what kind of justice we are really talking about. I have invited the justice spokespeople of all the political parties to meet to discuss the call from the Salvation Army for a cross-party accord on justice, because it is time we started to move beyond the sloganeering and the rhetoric, to look at the evidence about what works. It is time we stopped treating justice and crime as political footballs. We all owe that to people, because I think we all have a very genuine concern to reduce crime, and to reduce the number of victims and victimisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe bill does not do any of those things, but, nevertheless, I think it is worth supporting because it does do a number of useful things. The bill is important, and legal aid is important, because it means that when people do go to court, we are able to do whatever we can to ensure they receive proper, professional, and competent representation, so that they actually have a fair chance. The court is a place where people feel alienated. It is not just M\u0101ori who are alienated but also P\u0101keh\u0101. Anyone who goes into the court system and who is not legally trained is likely to be alienated by the process. It is like walking into a play and being the only person who does not know the script. People do get walked over by the system in that context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI agree with what Mr Harawira said. I have seen duty solicitors whose advice to their clients is to plead guilty regardless of whether they did the crime, because the police are presenting evidence. Even when there is a very credible case to be made for the person\u2019s innocence, it is just simply easier to plead guilty and get it over with. Of course, the other issue is that when people go to court, if they are working they have to take time off work and they do not want their boss or their colleagues to know that they are in court. The whole thing is something that people want to get out of the way, and it is easier to plead guilty than not guilty, particularly to minor offences. So ensuring that people who are charged with offences have good representation is important. I was pleased to hear some of the comments from the Legal Services Agency about some of the measures they are trying to introduce in order to provide better representation at the first stage, when people come into court. They gave that advice to our committee during the review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe support this legislation because it increases the eligibility to legal aid\u2014it is estimated that an extra 400,000 people will become eligible for legal aid\u2014but we were disappointed that it did not increase collective eligibility. The Greens were instrumental in getting environmental legal aid provided, because we are aware of community groups all over the country that, out of a public interest, take on powerful business interests, with no resources. So environmental legal aid is available through the Ministry for the Environment, and it is a shame that collective eligibility was not part of this review. Nevertheless, a significant number of people\u2014more people\u2014will now have access to legal aid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESince we are discussing the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s report, it is worth drawing the attention of both members and the public to a number of issues, one of which concerns the eligibility criteria. Mr Harawira raised the point that one of the factors to be considered is the likelihood of someone going to jail. Let me be clear: the intention was not to prejudge the outcome of a case, but to say that if someone was being prosecuted for an offence for which, if found guilty, he or she was likely to go to jail, then the seriousness of the effect of that outcome should be considered when the decision was made about whether to grant legal aid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EOne of the issues I raised in the committee was that people who had no previous convictions, and who had been charged with a fairly minor offence for which they were unlikely to go to jail, had to date not been eligible for legal aid. The argument was that those people were likely to receive only a fine or perhaps a bit of community service, the effects of which were not significant. However, the point I would like to make is that one\u2019s first conviction is always significant. The first conviction a person receives will always have a disproportionate impact, because of its effect on his or her employment prospects, travel prospects, and the like. So a first conviction is always a serious\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fab8495b3fc4985b227f63de11eb018\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Speak for yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b1845c2f79a45e6abf77afbeb6dc5b4\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Connell that I have no convictions. Neither have I been subject to serious fraud investigation. I am talking out of a genuine interest for the well-being of ordinary New Zealanders, many of whom have gone to court but have not had legal representation\u2014they have not been eligible for legal aid because of the point I have just raised. The advice they have sometimes had from duty solicitors was lacking, so they have pleaded guilty for the reasons I outlined previously. So I am very pleased that it was, I think, a unanimous decision of the committee to make the question of whether the applicant has had any previous convictions one of the issues the Legal Services Agency must take into account when deciding whether to grant legal aid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EOne of the other issues we grappled with a lot was that of legal privilege. The bill as drafted required a lawyer who may have been providing legal aid to notify the agency about any changes to the income and disposable capital of the person who was being legally aided. But the bill stated that it removed legal privilege, and the select committee was very concerned about the idea that legislation like this might remove legal privilege. Legal privilege is an ancient right, and something that is a pretty significant cornerstone\u2014well, perhaps not a cornerstone, but a significant block\u2014of the justice system. So we looked at how we could amend that provision, and we came up with a proposal by Mr Finlayson, I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f5a3f746dc1433caccb16617a617cb6\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c052ab542664da6be76b4b6e4639fdf\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014a very good and sensible proposal that when people apply for legal aid, they themselves waive legal privilege. That, of course, is their right, and it overcame the danger that we were, by legislation, impinging on the confidentiality that lawyers owe to their clients. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other issue that other members have raised is that of the pay rates, and that is important. I am not sure I agree with Mr Harawira that all legal aid lawyers are \u201Clegal bunnies\u201D. I know that Mr Fairbrother has done a lot of legal aid work in the past, and I think he is a very experienced and competent lawyer. In fact, although there is a concern at the disincentive for lawyers to take legal aid cases because of the poor pay rates, I think that many legal aid lawyers are very good. They are people who do the work because of their real commitment to justice, and they continue to do it despite the very low rates of pay. Nevertheless, if we do not address that issue we will run into serious problems, which is why we have recommended that there be a regular review of the pay rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u002229633fc852a94132b3b0dbc194816f1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229633fc852a94132b3b0dbc194816f1d\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In the very short time available to me before this matter goes to the vote, I want to touch on a couple of matters briefly. First of all, legal aid is not just for the benefit of the client; it is also for the benefit of the court. I was fortunate enough to train under some very skilled lawyers, and judges welcomed those skilled lawyers in court because they cut down the sitting time by their ability to manage a case very well. So the purpose of lawyers in court is not just to defend or advocate the interests of a client but also to serve their obligation to the court, to see that the court\u2019s business is disposed of efficiently, promptly, and as honestly as is possible. That is an argument often forgotten, but it is one that should be remembered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003ESecondly, I want to address the issue of legal aid rates. Members have heard some fatuous comments from the National side, from people I otherwise respect considerably, and the fallacy of their comments is shown when they refer to the disparity of rates between Crown counsel and defence lawyers. Yet the same legal aid scheme allows for equality of rates between plaintiffs and defendants. The reason we have a different regime for criminal legal aid is as articulated in a series of cases in the High Court, where the quantum of legal aid has been argued and sufficiently answered. In short, there are two reasons: first, a Crown warrant obliges the Crown solicitor to accept every instruction from the Crown or from the police to prosecute a case. So, inherently, the Crown warrant is limited to income to that of scale. However, a defence lawyer is free to accept instructions from whomsoever. Accordingly, the decision made by a lawyer whether to accept legal aid is often for ethical reasons or for social responsibility reasons, and is not entirely monetary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe other argument\u2014which was touched on in perhaps a flamboyant way by Mr Mark\u2014is that the issue is not really about legal aid rates being too low, but about the expectation of the legal fraternity to earn too much money from what is really a social good in the profession. Lawyers are getting to the stage where their incomes are unwarrantedly high for much of the work done. Sure, there are cases that carry an enormous responsibility and warrant a good fee\u2014as there are in civil law, in conveyancing, and in other areas of law. But too often lawyers assume that because they have a ticket to practise, they also have a ticket to automatic wealth. That is not the case, and that wealth should not be gained from the public purse. So I agree with some of the comments made by Mr Mark, although not his character assassination of David Ruth, a very competent lawyer in Christchurch who serves the law very, very well, and who limits his income by his decision to practise, for the social good, on legal aid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EIt is an honour to follow Hone Harawira in his speech. He makes a sound argument for reading from a computer, given the quality of his speech compared to those of some others who did not avail themselves of the current asset, which may well have enhanced their contribution to this debate. I support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022174c3692250c4ef3920e42e30bc86dfa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Justice and Electoral Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022151c40abeff140058b747e827808c45d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000502\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f15f5be4a7f4afe94476a62d5fd4054\u0022\u003EJudicature Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3b8c67691eb462d84cbfb367183d733\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0f759bdf28046ceb3625e5c352fe869\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0f759bdf28046ceb3625e5c352fe869\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a second time. I thank the Government Administration Committee for its careful consideration of this bill. The bill amends the Judicature Act 1908. The committee recommends some amendments in the light of public submissions, and I agree with those recommendations. The changes improve the clarity of the provisions to ensure that Parliament\u2019s intent will be clearly understood. It is essential in a democratic society that courts have the confidence of the public. For this confidence to be encouraged the courts need to be responsive, timely, effective, and accessible. Combined, these conditions will help ensure access to justice for all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis bill will particularly assist the responsiveness of the Court of Appeal. In recent years the Court of Appeal has faced an escalating workload. The bill increases the statutory limit on the number of judges who may be appointed as permanent members of the court. This is the first increase since 1987. The increase will be achieved within the overall statutory limit of the number of judges who can be appointed to our higher courts: the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court. As well, this bill introduces greater flexibility in the court processes, which will provide for more efficient use of judicial time and resources. These changes will assist the Court of Appeal to carry out its important role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis bill ensures that the courts are effective and accessible by increasing access to New Zealand\u2019s final appellate court, the Supreme Court. One of the goals of the Supreme Court Act is to increase access from our inferior courts to our highest appellate court through an orderly appellate pathway. This was largely achieved by the removal of the existing statutory bars to take an appeal beyond a certain level and replacing them with the ability to apply for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court. The proposed amendments in this bill are in keeping with this approach. The bill will remove the residual barrier precluding the opportunity to seek leave to access the Supreme Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI now turn to the committee\u2019s recommendations. The committee was satisfied that increasing the maximum number of permanent members of the Court of Appeal, together with the continued use of High Court judges in the criminal and civil appeals division, is sufficient for the foreseeable future. When considering whether an increase of up to two judges was sufficient, the committee carefully considered the suggestion of double-dipping in the use of acting judges in the High Court, which had been raised in submissions. The committee was satisfied that judicial independence was not being compromised. I agree with the committee\u2019s conclusions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI take this opportunity to add my own comment that New Zealand is well served by its judges. The use of acting judges in the High Court provides a degree of flexibility to supplement the permanent judicial resources of the High Court. An acting judge is used when there is an unexpected variation in the High Court\u2019s workload or when there is a temporary absence of a permanent judge. In recent years the use of acting judges has declined due to the significant increase made in 2004 to the statutory cap on the number of permanent High Court judges. At present there is only one acting judge in the High Court. An acting judge is paid at the same rate as a High Court judge for the period during which he or she acts as a judge, and not otherwise. As a former judge, an acting judge will also be in receipt of his or her judicial superannuation entitlement. Contrary to criticism this is not double-dipping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI return to the committee\u2019s recommendations. The committee recommended a technical amendment to clause 5. In considering clause 5 the committee spent some time addressing a submitter\u2019s concerns that the judge or judges involved in decisions may not always be identified in the court minutes, interlocutory judgments, and other court directions. The then President of the Court of Appeal, the Hon Justice Anderson, advised the Ministry of Justice that he had formally reminded all judges and registry staff of the need for judges involved to be identified in every judgment, minute, and direction of the court. This action was welcomed by both the committee and me. However, to ensure the continuity of the practice the committee recommends that the Rules Committee consider amending the Court of Appeal Rules that regulate the court\u2019s practice and procedure. I agree with that recommendation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EClause 6 removes the ability to appeal to the Privy Council in section 65. It is a consequential amendment arising from the establishment of the Supreme Court. There was some concern that the clause may be interpreted in a manner that would preclude an affected party from being able to seek leave to appeal the Court of Appeal\u2019s decision to the Supreme Court. The committee\u2019s recommendation to repeal section 65 clarifies that this is not the case. Parties affected by section 64 will not be excluded from the opportunity to seek leave to appeal to the Supreme Court. This clarification is welcomed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommended that clause 7 be amended. This clause amends section 67, which outlines how a party may seek leave to appeal a High Court decision on an appeal from an inferior court such as a District Court. The committee\u2019s recommendation clarifies a party\u2019s ability to seek leave to appeal to the Supreme Court following a decision of the Court of Appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI will be circulating a Supplementary Order Paper proposing several minor amendments for consideration at the Committee stage of the bill. The Supplementary Order Paper will change the commencement date of clauses 4 and 5 to allow time for the Rules Committee to amend the Court of Appeal Rules to establish new processes for delivering judgments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAgain I thank the members of the Government Administration Committee for their valuable contribution to improving the bill. The bill will encourage public confidence in the court system by ensuring continued timely access to justice and more efficient use of judicial resources. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3fa1355a9764887aa44c72c1f2887e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3fa1355a9764887aa44c72c1f2887e0\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3), and I would just like to follow a comment that the earlier speaker made that New Zealand is well served by its judges. It is a curiosity, I believe, that this bill has been reported from the Government Administration Committee. Members will know, of course, that bills are referred to subject select committees. Those so-called subject select committees are chosen on the basis of the knowledge that they have. One of those committees is the Justice and Electoral Committee, which deals with issues relating to the very questions that have been reported back to this Parliament by the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Standing Orders of the House of Representatives are quite clear as to what the scope of activity of the Government Administration Committee is, and that is to be found in Standing Order 189 in these terms. The Government Administration Committee is tasked with looking at \u201Ccivil defence, cultural affairs, fitness, sport and leisure, internal affairs, Pacific Island affairs, Prime Minister and Cabinet, racing, services to Parliament, State services, statistics, tourism, women\u2019s affairs and youth affairs\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI start by asking: why it is that this bill went to the Government Administration Committee when there was a subject select committee more knowledgeable about these issues. A huge opportunity has been lost with this legislation to improve, in a more general way, the court processes, and to bring benefits to a creaky legal system. I would say that much more could have been done than the Government Administration Committee felt appropriate. I say that because what we are looking at here are three quite small substantive changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe are, for example, increasing the maximum number of permanent Court of Appeal judges from seven to nine, including the president. Well and good; I agree. I have said in the past that the Court of Appeal is a workhorse that is significantly overloaded. That is to be contrasted in substantial measure with the Supreme Court, which sits idle for most of the year waiting for cases to come to it. Since the time that the Supreme Court has been in operation we have not seen, I would say, any significant increase in workflow to that court. There were other alternatives, I would suggest, that might have been considered rather than increasing the number of judges. One of the hot issues in the judiciary at the moment is what the retiring age for judges might be. It is currently set at 68. It used to be 72. There may well be a case for increasing the age of judges to 72. Strangely enough, acting judges in the Supreme Court can be appointed up to the age of 75. That issue could have been considered in the context of whether it was truly necessary to increase the maximum number of permanent Court of Appeal judges. Maybe it is necessary to do both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBut I express cynicism, because of the experience that those tasked with judicial issues on the other side of the House have, that these issues are not contemplated in a sufficiently broad and robust way. The reality is that we may well have, right through the system, too many judges. We should be looking at process improvements that would bring greater gains rather than simply trying to deal with the issue, as speakers opposite often boast, by increasing the number of judges in the various courts. Here was an opportunity to improve court processes in the way that I have just described\u2014an opportunity not taken advantage of. One looks at current issues of workload across the judicial system and sees the Government strangely disinclined to act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ELet me give a simple example, which is High Court - related, but the impact spreads quite quickly into the Court of Appeal in the context of the appellate pathway. At the moment the High Court is bogged down with methamphetamine cases. The reality is that where an offender faces a number of charges, one of which involves methamphetamine, those cases wind up in the first instance in the High Court. I have urged the Minister, who has indicated that he may look at this issue in due time, to give the matter some urgent consideration. If it were possible to move that block of work down, into the District Court, it would substantially free up the pressures that the High Court faces. Has anything been done on that? It may be that some preliminary consideration has been given to the issue but there the matter seemingly rests, to the frustration and vexation of the judges. It is just another illustration where some minor changes would produce some significant gains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker commented on issues of double-dipping, and I will not deal with that. But I did make the comment when this bill was sent to the Government Administration Committee that the issue of delivery of judgments was surely not, in the scheme of things, a top-ranking issue. Surely that must be right, although for myself I have no problem with what is proposed in clauses 4 and 5 relating to the delivery of judgments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister, and I hope he listens, that we see in this legislation again a simple response to court administration that simply fails to deal with the issues. Judges are appointed to try and decide cases. They are not there to be sucked into the minutiae of court administration. Where there is an opportunity to make change that will bring substantial gains, we should surely be behind that. We have missed that opportunity here. We support this legislation, but we support it with the reservation that much more could have been done. We are looking at simple clauses increasing the number of judges, dealing with delivery of judgments, dealing with a non-issue in many respects relating to the finality of decisions of the Court of Appeal, and provisions for leave to appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe time of the Government Administration Committee was probably wasted in dealing with this legislation. The bill might have better occupied time before the Justice and Electoral Committee, where some more innovative approaches could have been adopted on issues that are critical to judicial administration and the legal system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8f4718a662f49aab88962f15e57acd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8f4718a662f49aab88962f15e57acd1\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E What Dr Worth failed to discuss, concerning this important legislation, is that it enhances the appeal process to the Supreme Court. When the Supreme Court Bill finally was passed into law\u2014a great day for New Zealand\u2014it was envisaged that there would be a right of appellate passage to the Supreme Court from all tribunals. It clearly was an oversight of the Justice and Electoral Committee, I have to say, that it did not foresee the blockage on appeals from the High Court on a determination to the Court of Appeal. This bill opens the way back to the Supreme Court. It is amendments such as this that are ideal for a Judicature Amendment Bill and ideal for a committee such as the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EI have to say that the National members on that committee were done a disservice by Dr Worth. Clearly there are some troubles in the National Party caucus if he criticises the great Shane Ardern, \u201CChairman Mao\u201D of the Government Administration Committee. He runs that committee like a martinet. We get through the work, and we come to a consensus on what is right. The chairperson of that committee, of course, felt that this Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) was one worth supporting. Then, no less an identity is the man who is starting from way behind the starting block, Brian Connell. He never wants to put a foot wrong as he heads on to the main straight\u2014long after the horse has bolted, of course\u2014chasing his party. He would not want to put a foot wrong. Brian Connell on that committee joined in to say that the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) is important legislation and it had his support. Then, of course, there is Sandra Goudie\u2014\u201CMiss Mangrove Chopper\u201D herself, who would take an axe to any stray bit of growth. She is a woman who will gobble up that which stands before her. Did she have a criticism of this bill? Not on your life! So the National members on the Government Administration Committee were delighted to be able to nurse this bill through the committee, and support the committee in the recommendations that effectively tidy up the Supreme Court appellate process, increase the number of Court of Appeal judges from seven to nine, and, most important\u2014and a matter not touched on by Dr Worth\u2014bring some regularity to the way in which the judgments of the Court of Appeal are delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThis appears to be a minor provision but it has quite serious implications. It was raised before the select committee by Tony Ellis and other civil liberties lawyers, who were concerned at some of the trouble we have had in the last 10 years with anonymous decisions from the Court of Appeal, which led to the fiasco of the Taito case, which eventually had to go to the Privy Council. On the way there were several review hearings of judges being asked to stand aside because of conflict of interests because of notes they had been a party to signing but had not needed to declare their involvement. The select committee was assured that the Rules Committee would look at a process whereby the judges would be identified every time they made a decision\u2014whether it be by way of minutes, by way of notes, or by way of more formal judgments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThis bill touches on three important aspects, which are really housekeeping matters. First is increasing the number of Court of Appeal judges so the workload is more manageable. A nine-member Court of Appeal is not an overstaffed Court of Appeal. There is still a considerable workload for those judges. We will have an improved number of judges, we can expect better decisions and more thoughtful decisions, and that should decrease the workload of the Supreme Court. Then, of course, there is the delivery of judgments. This is an important change, which is more important in reality than on the face of it. Finally, there is the tidying up of the right of appeal to the Supreme Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThis is a simple little bill. The people on the Government Administration Committee are perhaps more used to handling complex matters that come before it, and they delighted in tidying up the bill. It is a straightforward bill. It is a service to the legal profession. It recognises the important work of the judiciary, and I certainly endorse its passing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002288c0f7f94db34381bacc6edc91510038\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288c0f7f94db34381bacc6edc91510038\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I start by thanking the previous speaker for his strong endorsement of my contribution on the Government Administration Committee. I have to say that I am living proof that rehabilitation programmes do work, and I am on the road to recovery. As has been noted, the Government Administration Committee considered the bill, and, as a member of that committee I want to acknowledge the intelligent and constructive contribution its members made in helping to draft this legislation. It gives rise to some hope that members of Parliament from different political persuasions can work together constructively when they have a common purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI would also like to acknowledge the expert contribution from the advisers to the committee. As a layperson I found some of the issues a little complex, and I thought that the advisers were very constructive in the advice they provided. I also acknowledge the excellent contribution from the committee clerk and her team. A number of quality submissions were presented to the select committee as part of its deliberations, and they were extremely constructive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EAs has been noted, the bill has three major components. I would like to touch on two of them. The first is the constitution of the Court of Appeal. As has already been noted, the intention is to lift the number of permanent judges from seven to nine, including the president. Of course, this increase in personnel is being recommended in order to alleviate workload pressures. National members on the committee were satisfied that those changes were necessary and justified, but we were not convinced easily\u2014and I assure my colleagues that we actually did dot the i\u2019s and cross the t\u2019s on that issue. We had to be convinced that we were not appointing too many judges, because, as has been pointed out, that would impact on lower courts. At the same time, we did not want to appoint too few and thus frustrate the process of the Court of Appeal, which, in some ways, is happening now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI thought I would provide the House with some information that was provided to the committee through its advisers. We sent the advisers away to gather information so they could forecast what the probable workload of the Court of Appeal might be. On reflection, that was a difficult task. They came back and said that information on caseloads that is based on forecasts of key drivers\u2014for example, weekly crime levels and economic activity\u2014is very difficult to provide and that, really, the best indicator of what the workload will be is to look at what has happened in the past. On reflection I think that is fair enough. Over the past decade, from 1995 to 2004, the number of criminal prosecutions has varied, reaching a peak in 2004. The information provided goes on to state that the number of convictions also reached a peak in 2004. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EBut the part I was most convinced by, and what led me to believe that we did need to increase the number of permanent judges by two, was the advice from our advisers that the number of criminal appeals is also likely to be influenced by changes in criminal justice legislation, and they named three pieces that have been passed in recent years: the Sentencing Act 2002, the Parole Act 2002, and the Parole (Extended Supervision) Amendment Act 2004. It makes good common sense to extrapolate that and say that if the sentences in the law are to be executed more rigorously, then we can expect there will be more appeals and more work for the appeal court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe second issue I want to address very briefly is the delivery of judgments, and this provides for greater flexibility in the delivery of Court of Appeal judgments. Currently, under section 58(2)(a) of the Judicature Act, any two judges of the Court of Appeal may deliver judgments to the court. Section 58(2)(a) has been interpreted as requiring judgments to be delivered in open court, and, as neither party, including counsel, is required to be present, those decisions can in fact be delivered to a vacant court. That, to me, does not make for good use of judicial resources. So, quite correctly in my view, the Government Administration Committee has worked to allow greater flexibility to be introduced to cover off this issue. If this amendment is passed, the Rules Committee will amend the rules to enable judgments to be delivered either in an open court or through the registrar, as is the practice in both the Supreme Court and the High Court. To me, that makes sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ENotwithstanding that issue, one concern raised by a submitter attracted my attention\u2014that is, that some decisions were not being noted by the judge who had made them. That was the allegation. The concern was about interlocutory judgments and court minutes not identifying the judges involved in the decisions. This means that, potentially, the judge in the Court of Appeal may be the same judge who had reached a decision in the High Court, without the appellant and his or her counsel being aware of it. I was concerned about that issue, and I think rightfully so. Again, the advisers were asked to provide some advice around that issue, and on our instructions they wrote to the President of the Court of Appeal conveying that concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe president, in his response, noted that if there had been occasions when interlocutory judgments and court minutes had not identified the judges making them, then that would have arisen through inadvertence. That is all well and good, and on the face of it I tended to accept that. But then I reflected on it a bit further. I asked the submitter, who was a leading member of the judiciary, whether this was actually common practice, and he answered that it was not common practice but that it happened all too often. So, despite the assurances of the President of the Court of Appeal that this was inadvertence, it seemed that it was happening. When the advisers first went to the present President of the Court of Appeal, the president said that it was happening by inadvertence but that he had been instructing judges to make sure they identified themselves when passing down their decisions. Again, I was somewhat comforted by that, but the concern still nagged me. With the best intent in the world, I thought that with personnel change this could still happen, and if it happened in one case and a Court of Appeal judge was sitting essentially in judgment of his own decision, then that was wrong and it was a bad, unsafe decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EInitially my position was\u2014and I took the lead on this\u2014that I wanted it written into statute. On reflection and with the support of members on the select committee on this issue\u2014and I understand that the Minister also provided some support on it\u2014we sought to have a note in the commentary. If members turn to page 3 of the commentary on the bill, they will find that the last sentence of the third paragraph sums up our position very well. It reads: \u201CHowever, given that problems can arise where deciding Judges are not named, we recommend that the Rules Committee consider amending the Rules accordingly.\u201D So we have not written it into statute, but we have given the judges concerned a clear steer of the intent of the Government Administration Committee, because this issue was of concern, and I think that concern was mirrored across most members of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI conclude on that point and give a quick summary of my position: increasing the number of judges from seven to nine carries National\u2019s support, the commentary on the bill covers our concerns, and I again thank the select committee members for their constructive contribution to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00221a4065def5ad4069a2665a881b964cdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a4065def5ad4069a2665a881b964cdc\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E As my two colleagues have said, National supports this legislation, although I would observe that the Government, in its restructuring of the court system in 2003, forgot about the Court of Appeal. The Court of Appeal plays an incredibly important role in the justice system of this country. It is an intermediate appellate court, but it has been under too much pressure for too long. The Court of Appeal report for 2004\u2014I do not have the 2005 one\u2014states that the number of cases dealt with by the court in its criminal jurisdiction in 2004 rose slightly for the third year in a row, though there was a decline in civil cases dealt with that year. The court dealt with 506 criminal cases and 113 civil cases. In 2003 the court dealt with 482 criminal and 148 civil cases. That is a very large workload, and the reality is that the Court of Appeal\u2014and I am not being critical of the court for I have the greatest respect for it\u2014has taken far too long to deliver judgments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI mention two examples. First, I mention a case called Lai v Chamberlains on the issue of whether barristers should have immunity for what they do in court. That was heard in March 2003 and judgment in that case was given 1 year and 1 week later. Of greater practical commercial importance is a case called ANZCO Foods Waitara Ltd and others v AFFCO New Zealand Ltd, which, as the member for New Plymouth would know, was a very important case for Waitara because it concerned whether ANZCO could establish a meat-processing plant on the site of the old Waitara freezing works. After ANZCO lost in the High Court it sought and was granted urgency in the Court of Appeal. But it took 7 months for the Court of Appeal to deliver its judgment, and that was a great concern to all parties and, indeed, to the people of Waitara. Those are the sorts of delays that have been occurring in the Court of Appeal, simply because the judges have been overworked. I criticise the Government because, at the time, there was a move to establish the Supreme Court and stop appeals to the Privy Council. The issues of the pressure on the Court of Appeal should have been addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet us look at the bill. Part 1 deals with the procedures and the constitution of the Court of Appeal. I too support the expansion of the court and the increase in the number of permanent judges, but I do not believe that it is the whole answer to the problem. One of the real problems confronting the Court of Appeal is appeals in jury trials in the District Court that go not to the High Court but to the Court of Appeal. I think something needs to be done about a provision for appeals in jury trials to go to a full court of the High Court. I also think that there is a case to be made for introducing a leave provision, along the lines of the leave provision in the Supreme Court Act, that could act as a first filter to deal with the number of cases that go from the High Court to the Court of Appeal that are meritless, and there are plenty of those. On that issue, I am in total agreement that there needs to be an expansion in the permanent number of judges on the Court of Appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second point concerns the way in which judgments are released. Clause 5 is a very sensible clause. It simply provides that the manner of the delivery of judgments and the number of judges who may need to be present, if any, can be dealt with by the Rules Committee, making rules as it does for Court of Appeal practice and procedure. The old rationale for the fact that judgments had to be given in open court was to provide counsel who received the judgments with an opportunity to seek leave to appeal to the Privy Council orally rather than have to wait for the 21 days within which to lodge a motion on appeal. So, given the fact that all applications to the Supreme Court require the leave of the Supreme Court before they can go any further, this proposed change makes a lot of sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe Minister glossed over clause 6, which provides that section 65 of the principal Act is to be repealed. He did not really say what section 65 was all about. It states that the decision of the Court of Appeal is final as regards tribunals of New Zealand, and then there is a proviso: \u201CProvided that the Court of Appeal may give leave to either party to appeal to the Privy Council\u201D. That is an extraordinary section. It should have been repealed when the Supreme Court Act 2003 was passed. It is an example of sloppy drafting and inadequate work, which bedevils much of the legislative work of this House. Frankly, it is an embarrassment to the House. Indeed, the Supreme Court, very charitably, commented in the case Henry John Esdaile Nation v Nicola Mary Nation: \u201CWe would observe that the purpose of the Supreme Court Act might be thought to have not yet been fully and clearly carried through in amendments to particular provisions. Consider for instance s65 of the Judicature Act and its curious proviso.\u201D This is a very coded way of asking why the section was not repealed in 2003. It really is sloppy drafting and is totally unacceptable. The section goes now; it should have gone 2 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe final point deals with appeals against decisions of the High Court on appeal. Again, I welcome this change that the decision of the High Court on appeal from an inferior\u2014not in a pejorative sense\u2014court, like the District Court, will be final unless a party obtains leave to appeal against that decision to either the Court of Appeal, although it would be granted only in very special circumstances, or, in even rarer circumstances, directly to the Supreme Court. That is a change that, again, could have been made 2 years ago when the Supreme Court was being established. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOn the face of it, these changes may appear to the lay person to be relatively minor, but they are very important. As an intermediate appellate court, the Court of Appeal plays a very important role in the justice system of this country. It has been overworked, which is why there needs to be an increase in judges. As I said, it is not the end of the story. I hope that the Government will look at a leave provision and also do something about the District Court jury appeals that go to the Court of Appeal. That is the first point. The second point is that the bill tidies up some lamentable errors that were made when the Supreme Court was established. They should have been dealt with then, and it is an embarrassment that it has taken 2 years to tidy them up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00220443f5432a9a4d199f1517c4e7e4adfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220443f5432a9a4d199f1517c4e7e4adfe\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to make our contribution to the debate. First off, I say that the previous speakers have all contributed to the very points we must agree on. We also agree with some of the concerns that have been expressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Judicature Act of 1908. One of its major intentions is to alleviate the workload pressure put on the Court of Appeal. In so saying, I acknowledge the good work this country receives from its judges. I think that New Zealand, for its size and for the amount of legislation that emanates from this House, is well served by our judges. This bill will ease the pressure on the present number of judges by extending that number. As a result of the many laws we have, we will, of course, need more people to sit in judgment, in terms of interpreting those laws, and that must lead to timely decisions. As was alluded to by the previous speaker from National, having to wait for 12 months and 1 week for a decision is certainly not something that we should condone. In fact, I think the delay in making such decisions is denying democracy to the parties that are affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EProvisions of the bill include the repeal section 65 of the principal Act, which will remove the right of the Court of Appeal to grant leave to appeal to the Privy Council. Clause 7, which covers the leave to appeal, inserts new section 67, which will allow a party to a civil proceeding originating in an inferior court and initially appealed to the High Court, to apply to the Supreme Court for leave to appeal. Given that that is the case, and I suspect that the workload for the Court of Appeal will not be eased, the need for extra judges will be a prerequisite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI want to conclude New Zealand First\u2019s contribution to the debate by making reference to a bill that will come before the House tomorrow. The Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) talks about increasing the number of judges, and the bill that will come before the House tomorrow, the Electoral (Reduction in Number of Members of Parliament) Amendment Bill, will talk about decreasing the number of members in the House. Perhaps I can tie the two bills up by suggesting that with less legislation there will be a need for fewer judges. If we have fewer lawmakers, then perhaps we may be contributing to an easing of the workload that the courts have to deal with. However, having said that, I know that that will not happen. Perhaps the support for the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) from a number of parties in the House will be an indication of their opposition to the bill that my colleague Barbara Stewart has introduced. In conclusion, I reaffirm New Zealand First\u2019s support for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e83a3d181aea4176926ea49f3db37fc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e83a3d181aea4176926ea49f3db37fc6\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E At Waitangi this year, a Samoan friend of mine defined our current political process as \u201Cdemo-crazy\u201D. With criminal and civil appeals increasing, a growing queue of appeal cases, and an increasing risk that people\u2019s access to justice is being denied, my friend is not far off the mark. The Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) aims to ease workload pressures on the Court of Appeal, increase the number of Court of Appeal judges, make the delivery of judgments easier, allow appeals all the way to the Supreme Court, and increase access to the Supreme Court. The M\u0101ori Party supports increased access to justice and the better use of existing resources, but we note that community involvement in the judicial process and greater access to restorative justice are not addressed in the bill. The denial of justice is what brought the M\u0101ori Party to Parliament, and that same quest for justice helps to guide our thinking on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party will work towards the elimination of poverty and injustice, and the promotion of a fair and just society. We sincerely hope we can call on everyone else in the House to assist us in those efforts. Everyone in Aotearoa has the potential to be a positive contributor to our wider society, but we destroy that potential by continually arresting, charging, convicting, and jailing people, and then rearresting them and continuing the cycle without taking steps to break it. The need to broaden access to our Court of Appeal is a direct result of the lunatic \u201Clock \u2018em up and throw away the key\u201D policy that the Government has forced upon us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe should not even have to consider the bill. But because we choose to put people in jail, we open the door for more appeals, we create the extra workload, and then we have to pass even more laws to deal with an already overloaded judicial process. I have to ask when this will stop. When do we say enough? Our jails are already full, and our budget has already blown out due to the building of new prisons, so when do we stop this \u201Clock \u2018em up\u201D lunacy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EEasing workload pressure on the Court of Appeal deals only with the symptom of a bigger problem. But neither this bill nor others currently before the House address the reasons for the increase in convictions that create the extra workload. Instead of just throwing more rules into the mix in a sad and wasted attempt to stop growing crime and to prop up an overloaded judiciary, we should be bold enough to say that we have got it wrong and that we should try something new. Maybe it is time we had a good hard look at our justice system and admitted that it is causing our whole society more grief than resolution. Maybe it is time we looked elsewhere for answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EReal justice is all about taking responsibility for each other. If any of our mokopuna play up on the marae, we sort it out. We do not ring Child, Youth and Family Services or the Ministry of Social Development, or anybody else. It is about collective ownership and responsibility. It is about wh\u0101nau, and it is about justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe bill says that it will deal with the growing list of appeals that is causing workload pressure on all staff, judges, lawyers, and clients. But the bill does not deal with the underlying issues that create the workload pressure in the Court of Appeal. Also, the bill does not deal with our responsibility to create, to build, and to improve a society based on fairness and justice. All the bill does is put a patch on a sore that is quickly turning into a festering wound, and that threatens to spread into a full mutilation of our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe bill also gives us a chance to see where M\u0101ori fit in the judiciary, and I have to say that two recent examples give us cause for concern about the Government\u2019s lack of respect for M\u0101ori in the judiciary. Funnily enough, both of those examples arose out of the Foreshore and Seabed Act. In March 2004 the Government stepped over the line of political neutrality, when the then Attorney-General and the Prime Minister both accused Judge Caren Wickliffe of bias for allowing East Coast M\u0101ori to have their foreshore and seabed claims heard by the M\u0101ori Land Court. They accused Wickliffe of a conflict of interest simply because she was of Ng\u0101ti Porou and Rongo Whakaata descent. Six months later they dropped those accusations, but the damage had already been done. Given the extensive nature of whakapapa, that would make it impossible for any M\u0101ori judge to hear a case in which another M\u0101ori was involved. Then, just last year, former Attorney-General, Michael Cullen, accused Joe Williams, Chief Judge of the M\u0101ori Land Court, of passing documents to the media about a foreshore and seabed claim. Ironically, his claim came just a week after Dr Cullen had insisted he would defend judges against criticism from MPs. Obviously, he was referring only to non-M\u0101ori judges. As it turned out, the documents Dr Cullen was referring to were obtained by a journalist who simply rang the court registrar and asked for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt seems that the bill, while calling for an increase in the number of judges for the Court of Appeal, should probably preface its advertisements with the words: \u201CM\u0101ori need not apply.\u201D In the face of such hostility, M\u0101ori judges do us all proud by continuing to deliver judgments of insight and political courage. Hopefully, their judgments will have changed thinking and helped to move our nation forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIn 1990, during the Treaty\u2019s 150th anniversary, Eddie Durie, the then Chief Judge of the M\u0101ori Land Court, gave the nation a new term, when he said: \u201CWe must remember that if M\u0101ori are the tangata whenua\u2014the original people\u2014then P\u0101keh\u0101 are the tangata tiriti\u2014those who belong to the land by right of the Treaty.\u201D In 2005, former M\u0101ori Land Court Judge Heta Hingston caused major waves when he described the Government\u2019s actions regarding the Foreshore and Seabed Act as \u201Cthe tyranny of the minority by the majority\u201D. He also said: \u201CTheir position that public access would be jeopardised is complete ignorance. Essentially, what the Government has done is take away from M\u0101ori. Quite simply, it is another case of raupatu\u2014it is confiscation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESuch forthright statements are not new. Indeed, Howard Carr, of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, who was the first M\u0101ori judge of the Native Land Court, became a very forceful advocate for M\u0101ori rights to the Waikaremoana block in T\u016Bhoi. He called the Crown\u2019s actions \u201Cappalling\u201D, and called for better treatment for M\u0101ori. It is that expert opinion and guidance from M\u0101ori judges who sit on the highest benches that helps to shape contemporary views of M\u0101ori issues, and that is the type of thinking this nation needs if we are to respect the right of the judiciary to be separate from the executive. That is also the courage and the free expression that this nation needs to help guide its future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party does not support this bill because, like the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2), it accepts the burgeoning arrest, conviction, and imprisonment problems that riddle our society as being part of the natural order of things. The M\u0101ori Party does not support this bill because it does not deal with those elements that will see M\u0101ori become the most imprisoned people in the world in less than 5 years. The M\u0101ori Party does not support this bill because it does not reflect the fact that for many thousands of M\u0101ori and Pasifika citizens, more judges will not mean more justice\u2014neither will easing workload pressure on the Court of Appeal, allowing appeals to the Supreme Court, or increased access to the Supreme Court\u2014for the very simple reason that Polynesians simply do not have the financial capability to engage experienced, high-cost lawyers to ensure that they can actually get justice. Changing our nation at a more fundamental level is required if we are to get ourselves off this horrendous carousel of pain and accusation, and that is a responsibility we all face. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022488127df109f4c4da61d92df6ddcb898\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec26ec0ae3cf483291c7048146f35406\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa40262ef2244a1a8b4bce05171ea636\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa40262ef2244a1a8b4bce05171ea636\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I would like to thank the Government Administration Committee for its efficient consideration of this bill. The bill makes minor amendments to the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Act and, in the light of this, the committee recommends no changes to the bill. The committee considered and heard one submission on the bill. The sole submitter agreed wholeheartedly with the amendments contained in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAlthough some members may be familiar with law reports, I wish to point out the important role law reports play in our legal system. The law of New Zealand is made up of two main sources: firstly, statutes, which are enacted by this House and, secondly, common law, which we inherited from England and which has been added to by decisions of the New Zealand courts. The common law is also known as case law. Case law, together with the doctrine of precedent, plays an important role in maintaining the integrity and fairness of New Zealand\u2019s justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe application of legal principles set down in past cases to new, similar cases ensures that like cases are decided alike. This leads to greater certainty and fairness, which are two important principles in New Zealand\u2019s legal system. Law reports provide an important record of case law and precedent. They provide an official record of the key decisions of our courts. They do so in much the same way as the New Zealand Parliamentary Debates\u2014known popularly as Hansard\u2014record the debates of this House. Aside from promoting the fair and equal treatment of citizens, the use of authorised law reports also provides accountability by opening up the judiciary\u2019s decisions to scrutiny. Without a reliable publication of judgments, the validity of case law and precedent is jeopardised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Law Reports have been published since 1881, and in 1938 their preparation and publication was established on a formal statutory basis. Since then the number of key decisions reported has grown significantly. Until 1971 all reported judgments could be contained in one annual volume. Reports are published initially in several parts, then consolidated into volumes. From 1972 to 1988 two volumes were required annually, then from 2004 three volumes were required. From 2005 four volumes have been required annually. The existing Act provides for law reporting in New Zealand to be carried out by the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting. The council currently records the key judgments of the High Court and the Court of Appeal in the New Zealand Law Reports, which are recognised as New Zealand\u2019s principal source of official law reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill provides for the inclusion of the Supreme Court decisions into the existing regime of reporting and publishing that is provided for under the Act. Currently, all decisions of the Supreme Court are available on the website of the Ministry of Justice, and that practice will continue. The Council of Law Reporting will take the text of the court\u2019s decisions and add high-quality headnotes and summaries of counsel\u2019s arguments. Given the importance of the Supreme Court\u2019s decisions, those reports will need to be of the highest quality, and the council has agreed to a protocol with the court to allow judges the opportunity to check each report before publication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ECurrently, only the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting is able to publish the judgments of higher courts. The bill contains three exceptions to that authority. The bill reaffirms the ability of the New Zealand Law Society to authorise the alternative publication of the judgments of those courts if the council has failed to publish, or to arrange to be published, the decisions of the courts within a reasonable time and for a reasonable cost. The bill also clarifies the ability of the New Zealand Law Society to authorise the publication of judgments of the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court in specialist law reports or other occasional publications. The third exception relates to judgments of the Supreme Court. The Chief Justice, following consultation with the Law Society, may authorise the alternative publication of Supreme Court judgments, where appropriate. Again, I would like to thank the Government Administration Committee for its timely consideration of the bill. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022842414b9571044ecab5db4cb20052392\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022842414b9571044ecab5db4cb20052392\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E When I reflect on that informative, although somewhat cryptic, address given by the Minister, Rick Barker, one has to reflect on the nature of the Order Paper that we have today. I think it very much reflects the flavour of this Government. It really does not have a big agenda. I do not think we could seriously say that those items are of great moment to the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f6434b06ac0453493ae051a52dad217\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Show me your policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ffbefe87c074f72b97d17e39abd19f3\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: By that I mean, for the benefit of the Minister of Justice, the totality of the legislation on the Order Paper. We might say that what the Government has decided to spend the next 3 years doing\u2014and I concede it is a necessary thing to do\u2014is using the opportunity of its lack of majority to repair the legal toolkit and legislation of New Zealand. Some people might well say that that is what Parliament should be doing, and that Parliament should be making sure that our law is complete, up to date, and with surplusages removed, and that the law is corrected. At a fundamental level, I do not think that that is why people send us to Parliament. This legislation is a necessary thing to do, certainly, but in many respects it is adjunctive work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn Britain and in Australia they have different mechanisms to deal with this kind of legislation. I do not believe that any party in Parliament will be opposing this bill\u2014maybe I am wrong, but I would be surprised. In Britain they would deal with this sort of bill by referring it to what is known as the Main Committee, which is essentially an adjunctive body of the main House of Commons. The bill would be progressed through there, because it is simply a non-controversial repair of the legal toolkit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI know that the issue has been considered in New Zealand. It was considered by the Standing Orders Committee, and it was suggested that we do a similar procedure to that of Britain, as well. So, for instance, the Government would work out what legislation would essentially be adopted by consensus in Parliament and refer that legislation to a situation where there would be a much lower quorum than exists in the House at the moment, to be dealt with, in essence, on Thursday evenings, outside normal hours. That would be the way we could repair the legal toolkit, and I can think of all sorts of Law Commission reports\u2014indeed, some of them are on this Order Paper\u2014that would fit into that case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EBut this Order Paper actually says that this Government has essentially run out of ideas. It has no big, bold initiatives. Government members are now reduced to being the repair and maintenance people of the New Zealand statutes. It is worthy work, but I suggest to the Minister that perhaps it is not really what the voters expect of us in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to refer directly to aspects of the bill itself. It is certainly technical. Obviously, Supreme Courts judgments have to be reported. Of course, some of them have already been reported. I noted that the Minister said that the volumes of the New Zealand Law Reports have expanded. Initially there was one volume a year, but it is now four volumes. I make this point, which perhaps the council could consider as the volume grows. Clearly, with a Supreme Court relative to the Privy Council there will be a larger volume of reports. I would expect all those decisions to be reported because of their significance, and I think there may well come a time when the New Zealand Law Reports will have to be split into two sections. One section would deal with the court of originating jurisdiction\u2014in essence, the High Court. So we would have a High Court series of reports, then we would have another series that would essentially be appellate reports, from the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court. The current system would be broken into its two component parts: the originating jurisdiction of the High Court; then a separate series of reports from the appellate courts. That is the practice in a number of other jurisdictions where the volume has sufficiently increased, and I suggest that that should be the case when there are four or five volumes a year. There are four now and there will be an increased level from the Supreme Court with about 30 decisions a year, realistically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EQuite a number of those decisions are merely right of appeal or leave to appeal decisions, but they are important in their own right. Lawyers, the public, and the ministry need to understand in what circumstances leave to appeal will be granted. I note there is a very interesting article in the New Zealand Law Journal this month, which analyses precisely how the Supreme Court is dealing with issues around leave to appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn the few minutes I have remaining I want to turn to some important constitutional issues, because they deal with the origins of the Supreme Court. [Interruption] The member can read the Mapp Report for important constitutional issues in relation to the Whangamata decision, which my colleague Sandra Goudie did me the favour of putting into Hansard, as to the way Ministers should exercise discretions when courts have made decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Supreme Court was established essentially by the Government forcing it through, using its majority. Certainly there was consultation through the select committee process, but there was no super majority. There was no real intent to gain the consensus of the House. Crucially, there was no sense of putting it to the public by way of referenda. I appreciate that I am reciting historical facts here, but I want to lead to the next point, and I know that the Attorney-General will be interested in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI believe that we have to develop better practices, and by that I mean formalised practices, around issues of appointments to various important constitutional positions. For instance, the Ombudsman, who is an officer of Parliament, is always appointed by a consensual process of all parties. That is a good thing. Similarly that is the case with the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, with the Controller and Auditor-General, and now also with the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security. The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security must be, by law, a retired High Court judge. So we have, by convention, said that certain important positions, which are constitutional in nature and important checks, should have a consensual approach to their appointments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI suggest there are other important constitutional appointments. Justices of the Supreme Court are clearly in that category. They are final judges and, in the words of a famous American jurist, they are infallible because they are final. That is very different, I suggest, from the position of High Court judges, who are always subject to review. So in the case of Supreme Court justices\u2014and I would say in the case of appointments to all the superior courts\u2014there ought to be a more formal consultative process, so that those appointments are made with some degree of consensus rather than just by the exercise of the Attorney-General\u2019s Crown prerogative, as currently exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI suggest that the position of Governor-General is also in the same model. I am aware that there is the quiet convention of a certain level of consultation. However, it is time for the appointment of a new Governor-General\u2014I know that various colleagues of mine have been running polls, one might say, on that\u2014and I think a more formal process is needed in those kinds of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EA bill of this nature, although technical, gives one the opportunity to consider and deliberate on how our constitution is evolving, because it is evolving in a significant and fast-paced way, which, frankly, has been done unilaterally to a very large extent. I say to the Government that in the environment of MMP it should think again, and develop more consultative and publicly open processes. I am not talking about the US approach to appointing Supreme Court judges. Clearly, that would not suit our system. But I am saying that we can do better than we are at the moment and that maybe in an MMP Parliament as finely balanced as this one is, this is the time to develop new procedures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcf8f22583214b22a289f1d269bfa3c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcf8f22583214b22a289f1d269bfa3c4\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That was the author of the Mapp Report, and that speech was a demonstration as to why it is one report that has a declining circulation. It starts out by indicating that it has some sense of direction with the title Mapp Report, and it winds to a conclusion that should really be attached at the very beginning because the rest of it just does not carry any substance. One would think, after endeavouring to listen to strains of logic that happened to wander into the last speech, that this was a bill of some constitutional importance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThis bill is constitutionally important in only one respect. It brings the decisions of the Supreme Court into the ambit of the official reports\u2014nothing more, nothing less. As the last speaker wound his way around his ruminations of constitutional imperfections in this country, one tended to lose sight of the role of the official reports. It is important that we keep our eye on the ball in this House, and it is particularly important, in relation to a simple bill that brings in the reports of our top court\u2014a court that is performing far better than its critics could ever acknowledge\u2014that that court\u2019s decisions, which are quite formative in the development of our law, be available in the official reports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe official reports are quite an interesting concept, and all reports, as they are published, involve some editing. If the editing process has a fountainhead of officialdom, then there is some consistency and they can be relied upon. The danger of not including the Supreme Court reports in official publications is that we could get transcripts of the original judgment, pr\u00E9cis of the judgment, and other publishers\u2019 versions of the judgment. We may tend to lose the thread of what is important in the reports and their reliability also diminishes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003ESo this bill is a simple mop-up operation to include reports of Supreme Court judgments in the list of official reports. We do not have to go very much further than the Court of Appeal (Civil) Rules. Rule 42, \u201CBundle of authorities\u201D, simply states in subclause (3): \u201CIf an official report (for example, NZLR, CLR, AC, SCR) of a case is available, that report is to be used for the bundle of authorities.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EHereafter the New Zealand Law Reports will now include decisions of the Supreme Court, or at least those that are significant\u2014no more and no less. We do not need the Mapp Report to take us all around the country and to ruminate on the state of our constitution. This bill is a simple piece of legislation to bring the Supreme Court into the ambit of the official reports, no more, no less, and this bill should not tarry any further in its progress through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00229cd500c6ff624edab214028c73cb8da5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cd500c6ff624edab214028c73cb8da5\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry that I am unable to please my friend Mr Fairbrother by cutting the debate short at this stage, because there are probably five people in New Zealand who have a deep and abiding interest in law reporting, and, regretfully, I am one of those people. So I want to say something about the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting, which I served on from 1988 to about 1996. It is an interesting body. The Attorney-General is a member. I recall that in 1990, after National won office, Paul East turned up to his first meeting as Attorney-General. I think it was the first time in about 30 years that an Attorney-General had attended a meeting of the Council of Law Reporting, but I do commend to Mr Parker at least one attendance during his term at the meetings of the council. I am sure he will find it a riveting experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E The Solicitor-General is also a member. A judge of the High Court is ordinarily the chair of the committee, and nominees of the Law Society turn up, as well. In its quiet, unassuming way, the Council of Law Reporting has been doing its job very well over the years. Indeed, the bill seeks to amend the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Act, which is probably one of the oldest pieces of legislation on the statute book at the present time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs various speakers have said, its primary task is to publish the New Zealand Law Reports, and that is a task that has grown over the years, with the increase in the number of cases before our courts probably reflecting that we have become a more litigious society, and that, regrettably, with the word processor and dictaphones and so on, judgments have become much longer than in the past. The Council of Law Reporting used to authorise the publication of one volume of statutes, and that practice continued until about 1972. Then in 1973 two volumes were published, and there were two volumes until the early 1990s when there were three volumes. I have no doubt that before too long there will probably be a need for a fourth volume, especially, as Dr Mapp says, with the development of the Supreme Court and the increased number of judgments that will come from that third tier of appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EA number of distinguished New Zealanders have served as editors of the New Zealand Law Reports over the years. One such person is the late Rt Hon Frank O\u2019Flynn, who, during the time between losing the Kapiti seat in 1975 and taking over Gerald O\u2019Brien\u2019s seat in Island Bay in 1978, served as editor of the law reports. Perhaps Mr O\u2019Flynn was a little too busy at the time, because if one looks, for example, at the 1977 law reports, one will see a very large number of extremely long cases. I think it is fair to say that the law reports got a little behind at that time. Another great New Zealander who served as editor of the law reports for many years and did a great job was the late Maurice O\u2019Brien QC. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs the general policy statement of the bill states, it is extremely important that we have an official series of reports. According to the explanatory note of the bill: \u201CThe law reports assist judges, lawyers, and the public in gaining access to key court judgments.\u201D The essence of the New Zealand Law Reports is that there is a selection process, and only the key judgments that help inform the judges, the lawyers, and the public will be published. I know that at one stage when Sir Geoffrey Palmer was Attorney-General, he thought that everything should be reported, but I do not think that would be a particularly wise idea. The essence of selection is extremely important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhile I was on the council, the New Zealand Law Reports were put in electronic form, and there is increasing recourse to access to that form of report. During the time I was on the council, and indeed for most of the period of the history of the Council of Law Reporting, the council has delegated the actual task of preparing the reports to Butterworths, more lately known as LexisNexis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo with those preliminary views in mind, I turn to the functions of the council. As Mr Fairbrother said, the bill is quite simple legislation, because it seeks to amend section 12 of the substantive Act by permitting the council to take steps to publish reports of decisions of the Supreme Court. So the first point about clause 3\u2014and no objection could be taken to it\u2014is that the council continues to have primary responsibility for publishing the New Zealand Law Reports and for publishing reports of Supreme Court judgments. Any body that is currently publishing Supreme Court judgments without the consent of the Law Society will have to get that consent. I do not think many companies would come within that category. A couple of specialist reports may have occasionally published Supreme Court judgments, and maybe they will have to go back and get ex post facto consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EUnder clause 5, the Law Society can give its consent to other organisations or companies to publish reports on two grounds. The first is if the council has failed to publish or arrange to publish adequate reports within a reasonable time and at a reasonable cost. I do not think that will ever be a problem with the council. The second ground is if the Law Society considers it appropriate to grant consent for a particular decision to be published in a particular publication. From time to time the Law Society will give consent for the publication of specialist law reports in special circumstances\u2014for example, the Criminal Reports of New Zealand or the Procedure Reports of New Zealand, which are a specialist set of law reports dealing with procedural judgments of the various courts of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI note with interest section 12(6), inserted by clause 3, which provides that the Chief Justice may after consultation with the Law Society authorise a person other than the council to publish reports of decisions of the Supreme Court. I personally hope that does not happen. I do not think New Zealand needs another set of reports. The critical thing for judges and practitioners is that the New Zealand Law Reports should be up to date and published in a timely fashion. I note what Dr Mapp said\u2014that in some jurisdictions, such as in England, there are specialist reports series for appellate courts. The appeal cases in England, for example, deal with decisions of the Court of Appeal, the House of Lords, and the Privy Council. It is too soon to say whether we need a specialist set of appellate reports for the Supreme Court. That will probably be dependent on the amount of cases that it generates. My tentative view is that it will probably not be needed here for a number of years. But I do not know that it would necessarily be a good thing if the Chief Justice started authorising persons or companies other than the council to start publishing reports of the decisions of the Supreme Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo, as Mr Fairbrother quite fairly says, this is a simple, mechanical piece of legislation. It is appropriate to note the work that the council has done in a quiet, unobtrusive way over many years, and the importance of the New Zealand Law Reports. The law reports will be enhanced by the addition of decisions of the Supreme Court of New Zealand, which has now been going for almost 2 years. The reports that it has dealt with in the 2 years of its existence have been very interesting and very important indeed. So National supports the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00227634b82c1dd54785b0aebf061a70f63d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227634b82c1dd54785b0aebf061a70f63d\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First): \u003C/span\u003E\u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 koe Mr Speaker, \u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 an\u014D t\u0101tou o te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you Mr Speaker and to us as well of the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI stand on behalf of New Zealand First in support of this bill. First of all I congratulate all those who have spoken on it. I can understand the Minister, in his opening speech, not taking the full time allocated to him. Other than the Minister, all those who have spoken come from the legal profession. Now I can understand why lawyers enjoy speaking, although that never ceases to amaze me. We have here tonight a bill that is little more than a one-page piece of legislation, yet people have taken a long time to speak about their support or otherwise for it. I just signal that New Zealand First will not take the full time allocated to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Act 1938, and it adds the Supreme Court to the list of New Zealand courts in the legislation. I ask this question of the House, particularly in terms of the first sentence of the explanatory note of the bill, which states: \u201CThe New Zealand Council of Law Reporting is responsible for producing an official series of reports of the key judgments of the higher courts in New Zealand.\u201D I know this question would have been an oversight on the part of my whanaunga from the M\u0101ori Party, so I will ask it just to jog his memory. Where is the M\u0101ori Land Court, and in particular the M\u0101ori Appellate Court? If I am to consider what is written here, that particular court is obviously not considered to be a higher court of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E However, the bill provides for the publication of reports, and adds the Supreme Court to the list. The Chief Justice can allow alternative publication of Supreme Court decisions after consulting the New Zealand Law Society, and the society can authorise others to publish reports of decisions of the High Court, Court of Appeal, and Supreme Court, provided that the council has not been timely in the publication of reports or has not published them at a reasonable cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I want to ask another question. One cannot presume it will be the case that the reports will be in M\u0101ori. I know they will be written in English. But there is no reference to a M\u0101ori version, and no assurance has been given that the reports will also be written in M\u0101ori, even though M\u0101ori is one of the two official languages of this country. Having said that, once again I reaffirm the stance of New Zealand First in supporting the bill, and I do so on its behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00223bdd29e5b7c84d3b99628508b03d1937\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bdd29e5b7c84d3b99628508b03d1937\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101ori have an expression that reminds us\u2014Mr Speaker, can I just put this off for a minute and defer to Simon, and come back in a minute? Raruraru ana taku m\u012Bhini.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[My machine has malfunctioned.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227699bb87fdea420e86366ebe4a3d78e1\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am happy to accommodate the member, if that is the way he wishes to move. I seek leave accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a18d8ccb22ab4438bb385909ff392689\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b165ea8c724b618f21784952e65b21\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Could you just repeat that please, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d59d2ef641a446f8396bcbfd8c84732\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We are just officially doing a change-round for the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220014b372bedf48b8b392c75aab243a8b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I can help the Minister. Mr Harawira simply wants the computer to work, and in the interim I will make a contribution while we wait for him to get his notes organised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022927e16f562094ff4b6ae59fa65c567da\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4b244ae0c50475e8662108cd9d84de0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4b244ae0c50475e8662108cd9d84de0\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E It is with some regret that I was not a member of the Government Administration Committee when it considered the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill, because the contributions we have heard this evening indicate that members of that committee, and those with a specific interest in the Council of Law Reporting, have indeed taken the opportunity to converse on a range of issues that are significant to, as my colleague Mr Finlayson said, perhaps a limited number of people\u2014including to himself, as I believe he referred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBut on some matters we simply require the House to pass legislation in order that the effectiveness of organisations such as the council can continue to add value to New Zealand\u2019s lawmaking, case law, and common law. As any law student will tell us, picking up for the first time one of the bound documents of the New Zealand Law Reports strikes fear into the heart of those who are studying their first law subject. Grasping one of the New Zealand Law Reports and working one\u2019s way around the different parts to the reports is probably the first step in one\u2019s legal career. Of course, it is the committee\u2019s view that the monopoly for the council to produce those reports is justified, largely because, as Mr Finlayson indicated, a high-quality report has been produced for some time. It would be of little consequence or of little help if a range of different producers of reports were fighting over the same material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI do wonder, though, about the timing of the passing of the legislation. The Minister of Justice may be able to take another call and help me out here\u2014or I should probably say the Minister for Courts, because it was that Minister who actually made the first contribution. I wonder whether there is some particular time frame within which the legislation must be passed. I say that because when one looks at the Order Paper, one finds a miserly 21 bills on it\u2014in fact, fewer than 21 now that several of them have passed through their third reading tonight. One has to ask the question of whatever happened to the Conservation (Protection of Trout as a Non-commercial Species) Amendment Bill, and why it continues to languish at No. 20 on the Order Paper, when I would have thought that had the trout been in need of real protection, that particular bill would have moved up the Order Paper some considerable way. In fact, I would have thought that the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill could well make way for that particular legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAlthough not a Government bill, I notice also that the Human Rights (Gender Identity) Amendment Bill has continued to slide into the abyss, and now sits well below the line on members\u2019 day. That is strange, given that we have only three members\u2019 orders of the day sitting above the line. That means that something must have occurred for that bill to be rendered below the line on the members\u2019 list, and it would seem that it is occupying a spot that could be used for another valuable members\u2019 bill to be drawn and debated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ESo although, as I said at the start of my speech, I regret that I was not a member of the Government Administration Committee that considered the bill, I am sure that Hone Harawira is ready now to make a contribution that will no doubt clarify some of the issues around the essential need for the bill to pass in such a timely fashion, given the huge number of bills sitting underneath it that could have done with the House\u2019s time, as they concern equally important matters. It will be interesting to see where they move to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that it is only right and proper that the new Supreme Court is able to publish its judgments in similar ways to other New Zealand courts, although I do not imagine that the bound version of the New Zealand Law Reports will grow by a huge size, given that full judgments from the Supreme Court are not exactly pouring out at a rate of knots. It will be interesting to see exactly what impact that will have, and whether, in fact, many people around New Zealand will have to have their shelving adjusted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9aa2669bd7f44fc8baa6ef4d3f0211a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9aa2669bd7f44fc8baa6ef4d3f0211a\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101ori have an expression that reminds us about matters of reporting, accountability, and even transparency: ehara i te mea, he kotahi tangata n\u0101na i whakaara i te p\u014D\u2014it is not the responsibility of only one person to be alert to danger; everyone shares in that responsibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThose issues are at the forefront of our thinking when we look at the bill, as is the importance of reporting major judgments from our higher courts, the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and the Land Valuation Tribunal. I take up the point raised by my colleague Mr Paraone about why the M\u0101ori Appellate Court is not included there, or the M\u0101ori Land Court. It is not the case of only one person\u2014whether that person be the Chief Justice or the Attorney-General. Justice for all requires that all have access to justice. As I said in my last speech, it is about collective ownership and responsibility. It is a case of our lawmakers being held to account by those who design the law, those who implement the law, and those who bear the brunt of the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThere are three key points that the M\u0101ori Party wants to raise regarding the bill. One is how M\u0101ori benefit from the law reports. Some of my mates will think that I am off my rocker to say that there is a strong link between reports of the key judgments of the higher courts of the land and wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi. But looking in the index, one can see the topics M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori land. Reading further, one will find such topics as alienation, customary M\u0101ori rights, jurisdiction of the M\u0101ori Appellate Court, succession, and the Treaty of Waitangi. All of those matters are relevant to our ability as a party to defend M\u0101ori rights and advance M\u0101ori interests for the benefit of all who live in Aoteoroa. These are critical matters for our history and our ongoing advancement, and, as such, we must do everything we can to ensure that the information is accessible, open, and transparent. Our respect for rangatiratanga, our commitment to self-determination, requires that court judgments should be subject to the scrutiny of M\u0101ori through being published. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThat brings me to my second issue, which is access to quality information. The bill is set up to ensure that the law reports assist judges, lawyers, and the public in gaining access to key court judgments. Gaining access to information should not just be a matter of presenting official reports in specialist or other publications. Gaining access to power, which after all comes from information, must be a bit more creative than simply opening up the reports of decisions of the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and the Land Valuation Tribunal. M\u0101ori have their own alternative publications that include summaries of those reports, and I want to acknowledge here the contribution that the M\u0101ori Law Review has played, in being a report of law affecting M\u0101ori, since December 1993. And some in this House would say: \u201CIf all else fails, try Google.\u201D I am aware that the electronic coverage of New Zealand law reports starts from 1958. I am also aware that there is a very active M\u0101ori Internet presence, through new sites such as Ng\u0101 K\u014Drero te W\u0101, Te Poutatara, Te Karere Ipurangi, and Irirangi.net, the network of M\u0101ori radio stations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBut, in truth, M\u0101ori do not have easy access to the Internet, because generally M\u0101ori do not have computers. Therefore, they are not heavy users of the Internet. So I think that if this House is really committed to democratic representation, to the disclosure of information, and to accountability, maybe we need to think a bit wider than the net that does not actually catch any fish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFortunately, there are ways for M\u0101ori to be able to access information other than by computer or published decisions. I have to be a bit concerned about the sneaky suspicion of law by stealth, which was touched on in the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3), with the possibility that judgments could be heard in empty courtrooms. For significant decisions, nothing quite compares with the strength of hearing views face to face, kanohi ki te kanohi\u2014not over the wire, not in specialist law journals, but actually in person. Is that a radical idea? Then, that is what the M\u0101ori Party is known for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to raise is simply to reiterate the importance of having open judgments and a formalised procedure to report court decisions accurately. On that point, we have been interested in arguments from other members regarding the development of a statutory monopoly. We believe in decisions being reported in order to uphold the critical values of integrity and fairness, and we have to ask, therefore, about the legitimacy of the Attorney-General chairing the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting, and what effect that might have on blocking any reports of unpopular Supreme Court decisions. We know full well how ministerial interventions can prevent those decisions and reports that Ministers do not like from ever seeing the light of day. We have only to look at the closing the gaps reports that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri produced across the Government sector\u2014which never saw the light of day\u2014to know that bad news does not actually make the news. So we raised the issue about the council\u2019s monopoly over the publication of key judgments from New Zealand\u2019s higher courts. Competition can help ensure the provision of quality information and the holding of law writers to account, so that the unpalatable actually sees the light of day. Having access to quality information means that we do not have to airbrush stories to make them into good news. The M\u0101ori Party will support the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill, in the interests of ensuring access to information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c5040e87b5c491b881be09d7c4d9793\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0d9bf0802524de78a746155bff28a89\u0022\u003EJudicature Amendment Bill (No 3)\u2014M\u0101ori Party Vote\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00229f1d3add3407465fa4b2684d9fd2960e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f1d3add3407465fa4b2684d9fd2960e\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (Whip\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to go back to the voting in relation to the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3). At the time of the recording of votes for that bill M\u0101ori Party members, verbally at least, expressed their view that they would be voting against that bill. We understand, through lack of understanding about the parliamentary process, that in order for us to have our votes recorded there is a need to call for a party vote. So for that purpose tonight, I seek leave to ask that our votes be recorded against that bill, and recorded in Hansard as such. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00228e65e755c51047c9a8a0e6ae3b83b19c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e65e755c51047c9a8a0e6ae3b83b19c\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E To be helpful, I tell the House that I distinctly recall hearing the member speak the votes against the bill at the time of voting, even though he did not call for a party vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a2b374f7c64aa39c029a1e9179b972\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that. Leave has been sought by the member for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none, so it will be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002278b83aa567104e6b8e02900cbcc043d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278b83aa567104e6b8e02900cbcc043d6\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E It might be appropriate if we just run the vote again, so that the votes for each party can actually be recorded. It allows the M\u0101ori Party then to vote against the bill. That is my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227de7b48ba3e74668af7c761a0aafb165\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that is the best way of clearing up the matter, so we will recast the vote. Leave has been sought, and there is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022402f2cd12afd4021a04fc1aa094ac8c9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 115\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efe1f5f06d5249bc8506627f71e6714f\u0022\u003ECrimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b26ea68bbbb74b50948fe1de10c5130e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002228b48cf1b45e482eb9115572ab33f97b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228b48cf1b45e482eb9115572ab33f97b\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. This bill was introduced in April of last year to address the increased incidence of voyeuristic covert filming. The issue of covert filming was brought to the Government\u2019s attention by the good work of the Government Administration Committee\u2019s 2003 inquiry into the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act, and related matters, which highlighted the inadequacy of legal sanctions against such behaviour. The Government referred that issue to the Law Commission for its consideration. The Law Commission concluded that existing laws do not provide an effective response to this activity. The Government\u2019s ability to move to address intimate covert filming is partly due to the Law Commission\u2019s comprehensive study paper on the matter. I want to acknowledge the good work of the Law Commission, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis bill makes it an offence to make surreptitious visual recordings of other people in intimate circumstances without their knowledge or consent. That is a modern form of peeping, and it has been made worse by technology such as cellphone cameras and computers, which make it easier to both record and then distribute voyeuristic images. Although, in general, covert filming has a sexual element, that is not always the case. The real issue is that it constitutes an invasion of personal privacy. Intimate covert filming objectifies individuals and can be seen as an affront to the dignity and autonomy of an individual. The ability to distribute images of that nature without the individual\u2019s consent, especially on the Internet, is of particular concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe incidence of intimate covert filming is increasing worldwide. Even in New Zealand there have been instances where miniature cameras and cellphone cameras have been used to record images of women and children in states of undress. Neither the activity of intimate covert filming nor the subsequent distribution of those recorded images is explicitly prohibited in New Zealand. Intimate covert filming can cause real harm, such as psychological symptoms and disorders, not merely embarrassment. I think it is important that we note that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E Some examples of this personally intrusive activity include the discovery of images of two teenage girls getting changed before and after swimming and getting ready for bed, which were taken by a video camera hidden in their bedroom. Another example is that of a technician who, in the course of his work for a theatre group, installed a hidden camera in the dressing room of female performers. Those types of images are not necessarily subject to censorship laws as, in many circumstances, they may not of themselves meet the test for prohibition under those laws. The real concern with those images is the invasion of the privacy of the person or persons depicted and the subsequent use of the visual record of that invasion of privacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe law should provide a response to people who breach another person\u2019s privacy in such a personal way. That is why these new offences are contained within the criminal law to reflect the public abhorrence associated with this type of behaviour. The creation of a criminal offence related to this conduct in New Zealand is consistent with action taken in a number of other jurisdictions. The United States and the United Kingdom have laws in place, with Canada and some Australian states also considering similar legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Government Administration Committee has recommended a number of useful improvements to the bill, and I thank the committee for its very good work. As reported back from the committee, the bill maintains the definition of intimate visual recording as a visual recording made without the knowledge or consent of the person who is the subject of the recording; and the recording is of a person who is in a place which, in the circumstances, would reasonably be expected to provide privacy; and that person is naked or has sexual parts of his or her body exposed, partially exposed, or clad solely in undergarments; or is engaged in an intimate sexual activity, or engaged in showering, toileting, or other personal bodily activity that involves dressing or undressing. The definition also includes recording beneath or under a person\u2019s clothing to deal with instances such as \u201Cup-skirt\u201D filming. The bill maintains the new criminal offences that relate to making an intimate visual recording, possessing an intimate visual recording, publishing, importing, exporting, or selling an intimate visual recording. The bill maintains the 3-year maximum term of imprisonment for these offences other than the simple possession offence, which will attract a penalty of imprisonment not exceeding 1 year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe select committee carefully considered the concept of distribution as introduced by the bill and has recommended amendments to refine the concept. The amendments make it clear that people who provide access to an intimate visual recording either by actively sending material to another person or allowing his or her computer to be used as a virtual library, will be caught by the Act\u2019s offence provisions. On the other hand, the amendments also make sure that people are not liable when they unintentionally or unknowingly provide access to an intimate visual recording. Internet service providers, for example, who provide access to the Internet will not be liable simply because their service is used by others to provide access to an intimate visual recording. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommends that the offences in the bill should be broad enough to ensure that live digital streaming technology is caught under the intimate covert filming provisions. This is, I think, an important and very helpful improvement to the bill, and I certainly support it. The provision of a maximum 3-year penalty sends a clear message that this activity is entirely unacceptable. The bill enables the police to use their search and seizure powers to immediately investigate these new criminal offences, including in those circumstances where images are discovered on the Internet. In addition, the bill provides that upon conviction the court will have the power to order the destruction of the image or recording and the forfeiture of equipment used in the commission of the offence to the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ESpecific agencies such as police undertaking video surveillance will be exempt from criminal liability under the bill where an intimate visual recording is made, possessed, or published for the purpose of, or in the course of, carrying out their law enforcement, safety, or security functions. The exemptions will not apply, however, to anything done in bad faith or without reasonable cause. Amendments proposed by the select committee ensure that people who supply appropriate authorities with covertly filmed material for the purpose of lawful investigation are not subject to the publishing offence provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill will provide victims of covert filming with an effective response. Convictions and penalties received under the new offence provisions should have a deterrent effect on this activity in the future. I look forward to these measures taking effect upon the passage of the bill, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002216bf4a38624641829bb90332a70e7f0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216bf4a38624641829bb90332a70e7f0c\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill, and do so on a range of grounds, but mostly, of course, on the grounds of human dignity and the preservation thereof. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI congratulate the Government Administration Committee on the work it did. Although this bill seems to be very simple and sensible legislation to arrive at, let me share with members some of the difficulties the committee had to grapple with as it went through the process. First of all, I do not think too many people out there would suggest that filming somebody in a state of undress, in a sexually intimate position, or in a toiletry-type situation is something that society would accept. But then, of course, people can inadvertently get caught in circumstances sometimes. For instance, somebody may be out on the side of the road videoing a scenic landscape, or whatever, and a young couple enjoying the night, as it were, may inadvertently be caught in that circumstance. The bottom line is that if the person taking the video knowingly distributes that material, then we need to be able to send him or her a message that that behaviour is not acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EFurther, there is the whole issue of what happens when somebody has captured an intimate image in the way the Minister described, after stumbling upon it, as it were, by accident\u2014going through one\u2019s Internet, or otherwise. How do those persons alert the authorities about the material they have without, in fact, themselves becoming inadvertently caught by the law? The committee had to find a way forward on that. We had a major difficulty, I guess, in getting the right balance between what most people in society would consider to be unsavoury behaviour and legitimate use of the material, in terms of apprehending, tracking down, and suchlike, those who might be distributing this stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EA further complication was that this bill does not just amend the Crimes Act of 1961, which, of course, is the principal Act; it also has influence over a range of other legislation\u2014for example, the Summary Offences Act, the Crimes Act, the Harassment Act, the Human Rights Act, the Employment Relations Act, the Privacy Act, and the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act. So the committee had a major difficulty in terms of getting the right balance on how to deal with all of that and come out with what is\u2014I agree with the Minister\u2014a fine piece of work from the committee. I guess the problem we had, overall, was in actually defining covert filming, and we all have a view of the world on what that is. I think the Minister outlined that definition quite reasonably in his opening comments: surreptitious visual recordings of other persons in intimate circumstances without their knowledge or consent, and in circumstances in which those persons would reasonably expect to be private. Given that this is a broad issue, that is probably the simplest way to put brackets around what the committee was trying to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe other issue that came out of this matter that was quite interesting but also difficult to deal with, was the whole issue of the scope of intimate visual recording. This is in an area of technology that is moving at such a pace that if members know what 2006 technology is all about then they are already out of date, because the next wave is about to descend upon us. That is the reason, I guess, that this bill came about in the first place. The 1961 Act never envisaged some of the equipment that is now available, such as cellphones with cameras and the use of the Internet, whereby one can beam images around the world simultaneously, described as \u201Cstreaming\u201D, and where one does not necessarily record, save, or store images in the way one would normally consider in terms of a photograph in hard copy or digital form. One actually films a subject and emails it simultaneously to whoever one may be trying to send that information to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E The next issue was to try to arrive at a sensible penalty or sentence for the offence this bill addresses. The committee spent some time on that matter. It looked at a range of similar offences and at international examples, and decided that 3 years\u2019 jail was probably a strong enough message. Some on the committee thought it was not; others thought it was a bit tough. But that is the nature of Parliament. However, that was the committee\u2019s decision, and the committee reported back its findings to the Parliament on 1 August. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI also say that the whole topic of films, videos, publications, and classification was a vexed one on a number of issues, not just around the amendments to the Crimes Act in this bill\u2014the Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill\u2014but also in a range of other areas. One of the ongoing issues that is still live is hate speech. In that regard, the inquiry within the select committee is still live. The new committee, which I chair, has decided to continue with it, because two-thirds of the way through the parliamentary process people indicated they wanted to make submissions. Some had submitted; others had not. It would not have been in the best interests of good parliamentary process to decide not to continue with that issue just because the committee was a new one in a new Parliament. So that matter is still ongoing, and it will be interesting to see whether the Government\u2019s view on it has finally been arrived at. Obviously, National has not changed its view on it one iota. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThat is probably about enough from me. National supports this legislation. Clearly it is overdue. The Government was right to employ the luminaries it did to reach its conclusions. The Law Commission and, of course, the Law Society, among others, submitted to the select committee. At the end of the day I think this bill achieves a reasonable balance on a very difficult issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3e35d9326e24fbca3cf22046f56978e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3e35d9326e24fbca3cf22046f56978e\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to speak to the second reading of the Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill. In my capacity as the previous chair of the Government Administration Committee, I thank the present chair for his speech and for his support for the bill, and for the good work that the committee has done on this bill, as we have seen, for a long time. The issue came to our attention through the committee\u2019s inquiry into the Films, Videos and Publications Classification Act. The committee did very good work on that inquiry, and its report was a very, very good report. One of the things that the committee found, when listening to the submitters, was that there was a problem around the use of technology and the fact that people could surreptitiously take pictures with their cameras. I know that there are signs on the dressing room walls at my local swimming pool, advising that we should beware of people possibly taking photographs with their cameras, and should watch out for such things. We are now making a law about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EWe have talked about the select committee input and the Law Commission input. But a lot of the information came from the submission of Bill Hastings, the chief censor, who highlighted the fact that there was no law around the issue. His suggestions, too, were that we look at international law and at what people are doing in Australia. The select committee did that. It did a comparison with other countries, just to see how they are handling this problem that has come from the use of the new technology. I thank Bill Hastings for his vigilance in his job, and also for highlighting the problem to the committee and the fact that there were no laws around it. He brought some photographs and videos to the committee, which showed us the sort of thing that was happening in a dressing room at a boys\u2019 school, for instance. Lindsay Tisch was on the committee at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c02d4a18bcb8420a9fca765344f76fed\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: A very good committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab63f819570e4125aafc1939c9acf352\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES\u003C/span\u003E: It was a very good committee, as Mr Tisch has said. We dealt with those problems. Often many of them had been put in the too-hard basket, such as whether something was pornography and how to make a rule about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAs Mr Ardern has just pointed out, if we solve one problem we create another. It is very, very hard to reach a balance. But as the Minister has also pointed out, the issue is not just about perverted filming and looking at the sexual element. It is also a matter of personal privacy. I can think of cases where people have taken their children to a park and someone has taken photographs of them, inadvertently, while they were playing. Many people felt that that was an invasion of their privacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThere are a number of people to thank, including the members of the public who came to the select committee and made submissions. We often forget, in select committees, how important a select committee is, and what an opportunity it is for people to have their say. Both in the inquiry and in the submissions on this bill, people have come along and told us of their experiences and about the things that have happened to them. That has enabled us to improve our laws around censorship and the use of technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThe committee has obviously looked at similar legislation in the United States, in the United Kingdom, in Canada, and in Australia. That has informed the committee when it was working on the amendments that have been made to this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAs we have seen, it is not only a crime to take some of these photographs, but perhaps what is even worse is when people pass them on to others. The distribution of the recorded images is expressly prohibited in New Zealand. Both making those images and distributing them are problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EOne of the things I note about the bill is that there is a provision for a maximum 3-year penalty. That is very important, as it makes it clear to people that taking those types of photographs, reproducing the images, and passing them on are crimes, and that there is a 3-year penalty. It is not something to be regarded lightly, because the person is offending against and making victims of people\u2014both those who receive the images and those who are the victims of the photographs themselves. There are exemptions, of course, that are necessary for the police to undertake video surveillance, and those have been put into the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI note also that Mr Ardern talked about hate speech, and of course that issue has arisen in certain current events, such as some cartoons that have been highlighted in the news recently. Those events have also enabled the committee to look at other areas in regard to human rights and the ability of people to take complaints to the Human Rights Commission. I wish the committee well in its consideration of the hate speech issue, as well. It is not just a matter of the hate speech itself but of people\u2019s ability even to take a complaint about it\u2014whether or not the complaint is upheld. As we have seen, it is possible to take complaints around issues concerning pornography. It is also possible to take complaints around issues concerning race and colour, but not about religion. People say that that is something people can choose, but in many cases people may not be able to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EMembers have talked about the Government Administration Committee tonight, and about the scope of that committee. It has a very wide range of portfolios to deal with, and the people who are on that committee are certainly never bored, because there is such a wide range of issues to deal with. But there are some very challenging issues. I think it is one committee where members work very well together. It is not just a matter of party politics; it is about what is important to the people of New Zealand. What is important, particularly in relation to this bill, is children, who are most likely to be the victims of the activity. The Government Administration Committee is a committee that focuses on good law and the best way to make good law. I thank the committee for the good work it has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022db4e853357e34f129fbefe49f8aa2551\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db4e853357e34f129fbefe49f8aa2551\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill is a place where the combination of new technology and salacious behaviour can be controlled. Technology has supercharged the role of the peeping Tom. Right now our laws protect us from Tom\u2019s eyes only, but armed with cellphones, cameras, and videos Tom can present his eyeful to the world, and we have no legislation to stop him. The convergence of technology, the melting pot of telecommunications, computers, and the Internet, can turn Tom into something new and fabulous. Without any great talent or training, and definitely with no permission, he can be the peeper, the photographer, and the publisher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EOverseas, and particularly in the US, intimate covert filming has become extremely popular, and that has triggered specific legislation against it there. But there have been incidents of that sort of behaviour in New Zealand. We have heard some examples already tonight about teenagers\u2014boys and girls\u2014dressing and undressing, and about a case from my home town of Christchurch where a technician working in the local operatic society installed a hidden camera in the dressing room of the leading ladies. That sort of behaviour is not acceptable to Kiwis. We believe that all people have the right to privacy when they are minding their own business\u2014whether naked or semi-clothed\u2014in a place they can reasonably expect to be private. Everyday activities, like dressing and showering, are considered private; they are not activities that people should peek at or take photographs of. Furthermore, it is not reasonable to expect that one might find oneself, without making a deliberate decision, naked or semi-clothed in images that are being circulated locally in photos or on a cellphone camera, or even internationally on an Internet site.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe bill is designed to update legislation in order to close a loophole created by those new technologies, and it amends the Crimes Act 1961. It includes the offences of making an intimate visual recording, possessing an intimate visual recording, and publishing, importing, exporting, or selling an intimate visual recording. That intimate visual recording can be a photograph, a videotape, or a digital image. An intimate visual recording is a recording that is taken without the knowledge or consent of the subject, when he or she is either naked, semi-clothed, or engaged in sexual activity, or when the recording is taken under or beneath a person\u2019s clothing. At first glance, the idea of taking photos beneath or through someone\u2019s clothing seems to be a little obscure, but that was before I read about shoe cameras, walking-stick videos, \u201Cup-skirt\u201D and \u201Cdown-blouse\u201D photographs, and video voyeurism. Those types of gadgets give a whole new meaning to \u201Cpeeping Tom\u201D. They allow for serious invasions of privacy, and, at times, they are linked with serious sexual offending\u2014voyeurism being a gateway offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EThe covert filming of people in intimate situations and the distribution of images will often have a sexual element, but not always. It will, however, always be an invasion of privacy, as it concentrates on activities that are, for the majority of people, private. Covert filming can have serious consequences for filmed subjects. They can be deeply distressed and feel violated and diminished when they are considered to be mere objects for another\u2019s gratification. The exploitative and often sexual nature of such conduct requires that it be treated as a criminal offence. The bill provides that anyone who intentionally or recklessly makes an intimate visual recording of another person is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years. This is in line with overseas legislation, which generally treats voyeurism as a crime, with a maximum period of imprisonment that varies but is commonly set at about 2 years\u2014although I believe that Canada is proposing 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EUnder the New Zealand bill it is also an offence to possess an intimate visual recording, with a liability of imprisonment for 1 year. If one knowingly and recklessly publishes, imports, or sells an intimate visual image, one is liable to 3 years\u2019 imprisonment. A distinction here has been made in order to exempt Internet service providers. That is, of course, because they just provide the medium for publishing the pictures, just like a photographic paper maker provides the paper but is not responsible for what is printed on the stock. There is also an exemption from liability under the bill for people who possess or publish intimate visual recordings as part of their work, including the police, the Customs Service, members of the SIS, the Department of Corrections, and lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ENational supports the Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill. It is an amendment that updates the law so that it can manage new technology and the innovative uses of that technology that modern-day peeping Toms have created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00226a3e007d99bb46fdb39aa6bd3307edec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a3e007d99bb46fdb39aa6bd3307edec\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill. It is obvious there is a need for this legislation, given the changes or, as some would say, enhancements in technology available to everyday people. These changes in technology have increased the ability for anybody at all to make images and publish them easily, cheaply, and anonymously. This puts at risk anybody who could be anywhere at any time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EA couple of circumstances, though, are not covered, and I wonder whether they should be. One relates to sound recordings. In years past there have been some fairly high-profile cases of intimate sound recordings that have been published, to the detriment of public figures, and we can think of members of the royal family and members of the acting fraternity. But I have one circumstance in mind, which was illustrated by an incident that occurred in Taranaki. My friend Shane Ardern will be relieved to know that it was a long way from Pihama\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcb7fe2b1344460093509256d151bc09\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Or even Te Kiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205b0c798de904b479128b2c108ad133c\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or Te Kiri. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe case involved a young farming lad who had a crush on the farmer\u2019s wife next door. He snuck over to the neighbouring couple\u2019s farm, crawled under their house, drilled a hole in the floor, and inserted a microphone into their bedroom. Using ancient technology, he then proceeded to record on audio cassette the discussions, shall we say, that occurred within the bedroom. Then he would recover the tapes and replace them, and all the rest of it that went on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWhen we discovered what was going on, we found that there was actually very little we could charge him with, because there had not been a burglary. He was not found peeping or peering\u2014in fact, he was not peeping or peering at all\u2014and he was not located on the property, so charges relating to trespass or unlawfully being in an enclosed yard did not apply. The wilful damage to the floorboard by drilling a small hole was infinitesimal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe real damage, of course, was done to the couple involved, who discovered it had happened when people started talking about it within the neighbourhood. So it is easy to record sound as well as images with recent technology, and I think that the catchment of this legislation could have been increased to offer some security for people who could have their privacy infringed in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EAnother concern I have is about the definition of \u201Cintimate visual recording\u201D, because there are times when people might agree to having their images recorded or their photograph taken. A lot of this recent technology is in very young hands. I am aware of a young teenage couple who had been seeing each other for a while and with whom I had had some dealings. For their own purposes they took naked pictures of each other. What happened, as inevitably these things do, was that the relationship broke down. What happened to the pictures? Well, they were digital images and they were saved on a computer. When the mates of one of the parties got upset at the breakdown in the relationship and at the scorn that was poured upon the person, the pictures were broadcast on the Internet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt was very difficult to find what legislation would be appropriate in that circumstance. It would not be caught in respect of this legislation, because initially the image was made with the consent of the person in the photograph.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b838a888d8574bb1b43c593ad80b5a97\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: But not the distribution. It was being distributed without the person\u2019s consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228953c048d3b0475fb463d679d7b0ed0b\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: I understood that if an intimate visual recording is distributed, the definition of that is \u201Cwithout the knowledge or consent\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdf49363faba4fc59c2d26c85aad58e3\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Without the knowledge or consent of distribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239561fe9f7da4f39a224ab1d0252db95\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: I will have to chew that one over. In any event, what happens, of course, is that a person\u2019s reputation\u2014or their view of that reputation\u2014is completely damaged. It is very hard for someone to bounce back from that because he or she feels that everybody knows, in spite of the relatively few people who may know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EGiven the fine intent of the legislation, it is a shame that those two issues were not taken into account at the time, although I say that with the benefit of hindsight. The National Party certainly supports this bill and we look forward to its implementation. We hope that members of the public will take some certainty and assurance from the implementation and enforcement of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcbea3c6d6004ccd8f484f99a0d75a6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcbea3c6d6004ccd8f484f99a0d75a6f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First members wholeheartedly support this bill. We have known for quite some time that there are some weirdos and wonder-boys out there, and this bill is an attempt to put some control on those sorts of people. It is absolutely disgraceful that people can get away with filming people in covert situations and trading the pictures on the Internet or wherever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8958558b57b4c0db0de7735f7bd66b5\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Bit like Saunders Unsworth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022140ba16e5f9d4d7fb65e4b8e53a43745\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the member does not really believe that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI was intrigued when the member who has just resumed his seat mentioned the young lad who went to a farmhouse, drilled a hole in the floorboards, and put a microphone through into the bedroom. The police\u2014and I know the member is an ex-police officer\u2014had some difficulty in working out how to charge the chap. Never mind whether the recording was in the bedroom\u2014it could be in the lounge or anywhere. Surely putting microphones into people\u2019s houses and recording what they are saying or doing must be a no-no under the current laws. It must be a no-no in any set of circumstances. I am not talking about sexual situations; I am talking about family discussions. That seems to me to be a total no-no, but this bill does not cover that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe concern I have after reading this bill is that the police are exempt, as are customs officers, officers employed by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service, employees in the Department of Corrections, and lawyers. What about licensed private detectives? Are they classified under new section 216M(1)(f): \u201Cany other person or member of a class of persons prescribed in regulations made under this Act;\u201D? Surely if a couple are going through difficult times and the wife is wondering where the husband gets to on occasions and wants to employ the services of a private detective\u2014or vice versa; the husband is worried about where the wife gets to on occasions\u2014it is legitimate to engage a private detective to photograph or video whatever he or she sees, for no other reason than peace of mind. Clearly, it cannot be distributed to the wider public. In my view, a partner in a relationship that is a bit rocky and who suspects the other partner of getting up to something, has some rights to determine whether that is true or false. This bill seems to be silent on that sort of issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E I cannot believe that paragraph (f)\u2014\u201Cany other person or member of a class of persons prescribed in regulations made under this Act;\u201D\u2014embraces licensed private detectives. It seems to me that a lawyer or agent might cover the situation, but I believe the bill should give some consideration to embracing licensed private detectives. But we respect that the Government Administration Committee has listened to a number of submissions on the bill, and has come up with a reasonably able, working bill, which New Zealand First will support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI am concerned that the former chairperson of the Government Administration Committee saw fit to praise Bill Hastings beyond repute. I am quite pleased Bill Hastings has some concerns in this area, but I should put it on the record that some of the DVDs that are allowed to go through the censor\u2019s office leave a lot to be desired. I want to make it quite clear that I have not seen those DVDs, but I have read the censor\u2019s reports. [Interruption] I invite the member who is chuckling over there to read the reports and see whether he approves of them. While we are releasing that sort of garbage into society, we will reap the downside, and I think we are seeing that more and more. Censorship in this country, in my view, needs to be addressed a little bit more comprehensively. [Interruption] Well, the members over there mutter. They should go and see some of the films that are being released in this country right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4e0a187dc7e48efa884fffe26ab89ac\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The member has not seen them. How does he know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257c0da7fa4d14fc0b9702423b93693ec\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I have read the reports. For the member\u2019s enlightenment, the censor has to write a detailed report on the contents of all those DVDs and films. The member should read one of them and see whether he approves. He is a young member. I think he is a father, is he not? When his children grow to the age when they will see that sort of garbage, then he might be a little bit more worried. His youngsters are not yet involved with those sorts of DVDs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will support the bill. We have concerns, though, and we have indicated our concern that the bill does not quite go far enough in terms of allowing private detectives who are engaged on a legitimate surveillance operation to be exempt. Nevertheless, we will support the bill and we will give consideration to producing a Supplementary Order Paper when the bill reaches the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0605adf077647c3b3391bb40f162beb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0605adf077647c3b3391bb40f162beb\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of the Green Party on the Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill. The Green Party, like all parties, supports the bill, and it is an issue we take very seriously. The bill is designed to deal with what is a growing problem internationally. Of course, as the technology develops and becomes more miniaturised, and more functions become integrated into a single platform, it becomes easier to do the kinds of things that the bill is intended to deal with. So it is timely that in this country we are introducing legislation specifically to deal with intimate covert filming. We support that, because such behaviour is invasive, abusive, and humiliating, and it is right that we should address it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI touch on a couple of points made by one of the previous speakers, Mr Chester Borrows. He raised a couple of important points that the House should give some attention to, particularly when we move into the Committee stage. The first one he talked about was the issue of audio recordings that do not involve a visual recording; and the example the member gave from his personal experience as an investigating officer was, I think, very pertinent to the issue at hand. I think we should give some consideration as to whether we should extend the scope of the bill to audio recordings, so I thank the member for that contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other matter he raised is the situation where a visual recording has been made with the consent of the subject but then it is published without consent. I note that the Minister of Justice, Mark Burton, interjected on that point and indicated that his view was that the member was wrong. But I think the Minister is indicating now that he stands corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5aff83c18044d539a651c62eec7adc8\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I am looking into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ee2483b8fe4845b27281ef2f684dd0\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says he is looking into it. When I look at the bill and read the wording of it, in my view Mr Borrows is quite correct, because if we go to the new section 216G, to be inserted into the Crimes Act by clause 3, which defines what an intimate visual recording is, it states that it is a visual recording \u201Cmade in any medium using any device without the knowledge or consent of the person who is the subject of the recording, and the recording is of\u2014\u201D the following things. Now, when it comes to what use will be made of that recording, that is quite a different issue. If we go to section 216I, a person is liable to imprisonment who has in his or her possession an intimate visual recording for the purpose of publishing, exporting, or selling, and knowing it to be an intimate visual recording, or being reckless as to whether it is an intimate visual recording. But whether the provisions under section 216I come into effect is dependent on whether the matter being discussed comes under the definition of it being an intimate visual recording, and that provision states quite clearly that an intimate visual recording is a recording made without the knowledge or consent of the person who is the subject. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESo it seems to me that the circumstances that Mr Borrows outlined, where the recording is made with consent but then publication is without consent, are not covered by this bill, and I think that is something we might want to look at. The member raised an example from his knowledge, and there has been a lot of publicity internationally about other cases where that would be a consideration. The famous Paris Hilton videos, for example, are exactly such an example, where a recording was made with consent, but it was then published without consent on the Internet. So we do need to look at that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI accept that maybe the bill is not intended to deal with those issues. Maybe the intention of the bill is simply to cover the situation where the recording is done without consent, but I think it is something we should give further thought to, and I would be interested to hear the Minister clarify his intention in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other issue I was going to raise was the one that Peter Brown mentioned around the exemptions, and he talked about the potential for a private detective to receive an exemption under the regulations. He also made a useful point. Again, I would ask the Minister to clarify his intention regarding that issue, and whether he sees that those regulations might include private detectives and the like, or whether it is not intended that that would be the case. I think it would be useful to have that statement on record so that in the future, when we are looking at any regulations that are promulgated, we can refer back to the Minister\u2019s statement to see what his intention was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to say before I finish is that I think the select committee did a very good job in scrutinising the legislation. I was not on the Government Administration Committee to take part in the consideration and deliberation, but when I read the report I think it shows evidence that the committee did consider a number of potentially quite knotty details, and I think it dealt with them in a very responsible way. For example, the report states that one of the issues raised was that in order to establish that a visual recording is an intimate visual recording within the meaning of the bill, the prosecution will have to establish beyond reasonable doubt that the recording was, in fact, taken without the knowledge or consent of the subject, and if the subject is difficult to identify, that may be difficult to prove in court. I think the Government Administration Committee was right in leaving that matter alone and expressing the view that it is an evidential matter that should be dealt with in court on a case by case basis. So I thank the committee for its restraint in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other issue the committee mentions in the report relates to section 216I, which relates to the purpose of the possession. It makes a distinction that someone who has in his or her possession, without reasonable excuse, an intimate visual recording, knowing it to be an intimate visual recording, is liable to the penalty, but if it is in the person\u2019s possession for the purpose of publishing, exporting, or selling, then the test is different. The test is not: without reasonable excuse, knowing it to be an intimate visual recording; it is knowing it to be an intimate visual recording or being reckless as to whether it is an intimate visual recording. I think that that distinction is an important one to retain, and, again, I think that the consideration the committee gave to it, as outlined in the report, is a useful reference for members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe final point I would like to address is in relation to Internet service providers. The view of the committee was that Internet service providers should not be criminally liable for another person\u2019s Internet use, and I think that that is right; that Internet service providers cannot be expected to know the content of all the material that passes through their services, or that they post or store in providing a service to their customers. The committee has recommended that Internet service providers should not be liable, although it has said that the exemption should apply only where Internet service providers do not know or suspect that the recording is an intimate visual recording, and I think that that is quite right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EOnce again, I thank the committee for a good piece of work dealing with some of the potentially difficult issues arising out of a bill of this nature. I thank the Minister for bringing this matter to the House and I thank members for their very useful contributions in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022d77c48a67c9c4ba488c5679e348af69f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d77c48a67c9c4ba488c5679e348af69f\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E In the few minutes that are available I just want to say that the M\u0101ori Party is happy to support the Crimes (Intimate Covert Filming) Amendment Bill. Tangata whenua have watched the growth of new technologies with real concern for the way in which intellectual and cultural property rights can so easily be abused. I do not wish to go back over many of the points that have already been made, suffice to say that we support them. But in terms of Te Ao M\u0101ori, our symbols, our designs, our stories, our waiata, our writings, and our art are all taonga and, as such, are shared only with those who have the right to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIndeed, the current claim before the Waitangi Tribunal, the indigenous flora and fauna and M\u0101ori intellectual and cultural property claim known as Wai 262, which relates to the protection and ownership of M\u0101ori cultural and intellectual property, is being keenly watched for the potential it has to create boundaries around language, authority, and intellectual and cultural property. In our world view our knowledge is passed from one generation to the next. It is not just handed out to any Joe Public, or H\u014Dhepa in our case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is with that sort of background that the M\u0101ori Party is very worried about the increasing problems this bill seems to cover. It is the sort of sneaky feeling that somebody is watching us\u2014that Big Brother phenomenon that has become a hit show for some countries already. In today\u2019s times the so-called new technologies of cellphones, cameras, and computers have made that feeling a virus that no one would want to be infected by. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhen I look at my own children and their cellphones, and the way in which they can take photos of all their mates and record them for posterity, I always wonder and marvel at how they can turn their hand to the most complex skills of dexterity with the greatest of ease. But, of course, it comes with a cost. With the rapid reduction in the size of cellphones, people are now able to sneakily film intimate situations where people would normally expect there to be a general standard of privacy. For our part, that sort of stuff is not on, and we obviously will support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603145c3a0dec053f48a185d373ce0b986ff1000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"