"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226186b3767fe246378dd90e92d10bf00e\u0022\u003EWednesday, 22 March 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226693ffc0f902431d8db483d59ce5559e\u0022\u003EWednesday, 22 March 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a18b06c2c66e431f95c4e79bb3c701bb\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f16c2e261db4d129e702780052d79de\u0022\u003EDog Control (Exemption of Farm Dogs) Amendment Bill\u2014Introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f819001defbc4191b5fc11b4e6b2fef8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f819001defbc4191b5fc11b4e6b2fef8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I understand the Minister of Agriculture is about to make an announcement of the Government\u2019s intention to change the law with regard to the microchipping of farm dogs. To assist Mr Anderton and the Government, I therefore seek leave of the House that the Dog Control (Exemption of Farm Dogs) Amendment Bill in my name be introduced and set down on the Order Paper for its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277683f80d50c4c5da9797f7c739c780a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229de2a2b8232843c1bf640893d5934f0d\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ef9a8c560284ffdac92cfbf0ba529f4\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c872588bf574549be3d41d00994ee59\u0022\u003EConservation, Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b8ac704eb2449980415af8bb2b784d\u0022\u003E1. Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Conservation; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8d37f1af8b54f1ebea3eca1f0d1efcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8d37f1af8b54f1ebea3eca1f0d1efcd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022665729a43bc64eb79ae0e54d1579ed8e\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the comments of the Hon Dover Samuels, who said he was \u201Cgalled\u201D by the Minister of Conservation\u2019s vetoing the Whangamata marina, and that \u201CMinisters should not be allowed to overturn the decision of a jury or a court. It undermines the integrity and the process\u201D; if not, will she be taking any action to discipline Mr Samuels for his very public criticism of a ministerial colleague, which is a clear breach of the principle of Cabinet responsibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe434996a95427290b2a84a9cef25b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the Minister of Conservation did not overturn the decision of the court. The court makes a report. The Minister must then exercise a judgment on restricted coastal activities. I am absolutely amazed that the party that wrote the law and passed it does not believe that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220be42e1a1f04a56b98921ab87782904\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Hon Dover Samuels that it is galling that the Department of Conservation bureaucrats had an unfair advantage in the Resource Management Act process for the Whangamata marina because \u201Cthey could go running off to their Minister to have decisions overturned if they did not agree with the decision of the Environment Court.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201101836df074e62abd2c95309d1de26\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Under the law, the Minister makes a decision. He gets advice. I am not sure who else is supposed to advise him if it is not the Department of Conservation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dda75615d484413997801bffca6c1b2\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the comments of the Hon Dover Samuels that the \u201Cintegrity\u201D of the ministerial veto process under the Resource Management Act as it applied to the Whangamata marina needed to be \u201Creconsidered\u201D; if so, what action does she intend to take as a result?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dba6ce5336b049d8849c53174f1108fe\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I said yesterday, it is an entirely open matter for debate as to whether the Minister\u2019s power should, in law, be exercised at the beginning or the end of the process. That is what Mr Samuels is commenting on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421b6880e3994e7e9c0b4c942b061d76\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister is judging her Ministers\u2019 performances, why does she apply different standards to different portfolios, such as she did yesterday when she said David Parker\u2019s behaviour was not good enough for him to be Attorney-General but OK for him to be the Minister of Energy and the Minister of Transport, and then again last year when she judged David Benson-Pope to be unsuitable to be the Associate Minister of Education but OK to be the Minister for Social Development and Employment and Associate Minister for the Environment; and where in the hierarchy of ministerial standards does the Prime Minister\u2019s job sit\u2014at the top or at the bottom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f11f6d5a1df2458b8bd972e37fe34fc3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That question is extremely wide of the original question. If the member would like to\u2014not taking one of his supplementary questions\u2014focus the question on the primary question, which deals with the Minister of Conservation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7cfdba430c4506a845ab4e52d30441\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister is judging her Ministers\u2019 performances, such as the Minister of Conservation, why does she apply different standards to different portfolios, as she has done with David Parker, when she said that his standard of behaviour was not good enough to be Attorney-General but OK to be the Minister of Energy and the Minister of Transport; like she did last year with David Benson-Pope, when she said his behaviour was not good enough for him to be the Associate Minister of Education but OK for him to be the Minister for Social Development and Employment and the Associate Minister for the Environment; and where in this hierarchy of ministerial standards does the Prime Minister\u2019s job sit\u2014at the top or at the bottom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022300bb4c83a1d48e98fff72d3e6248c33\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The final part of your question, Mr Hide, is out of order, but the first part is fine. So I ask the Prime Minister to address that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb5b131e448c487b99a6ccd7a5ca9660\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I judge the Minister of Conservation on how he does his job. He has a difficult job to do. He must make a decision on restricted coastal activity at the end of quite a long decision-making process. [Interruption] For the former Minister, who administered this law, to keep going on in a way that indicates he has no knowledge of it at all is reprehensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cff5229322874a6b8da40896f920bd99\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm media reports that she fully supported the Hon Chris Carter\u2019s handling of the Whangamata marina issue, and does she acknowledge that Mr Samuel\u2019s comments regarding Mr Carter are, in fact, therefore an attack on her as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af0fe33a93354d0a854793b5c64b69e2\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: To the best of my knowledge the Minister has followed a proper process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060c9f7c4c6a41c5ad71debc415ae36e\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I have today asked the Prime Minister four supplementary questions. Three of the questions asked whether she agreed with the Hon Dover Samuels. She did not answer those questions at all. The fourth question asked about media reports relating to what Mr Carter said and what she herself said. She did not answer that question, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8b87da188e34f22bb9198ab0bdd0121\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister did address the questions, and I listened to the supplementary questions closely. I think it is unfortunate that normally more than one question was involved. So would the member like to redirect his question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b85a86808df341edaac4d218e1929ee1\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Can I simply read my question again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5a872b66614326a842d6b8f7e19dce\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I remind members that all members are heard in silence. I also remind the member before he begins that members can ask for opinions, but Ministers do not necessarily have to give them. That is what the Standing Orders state. As I said, if we wanted only factual questions and factual answers, then we would change the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a20e9b95e6ae45da80a2ca835eac1376\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm media reports that she fully supported the Hon Chris Carter\u2019s handling of the Whangamata marina issue, and does she acknowledge that Mr Samuel\u2019s comments regarding Mr Carter are therefore an attack on her, as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca71fed422014f5bb0aa0c74877b2d75\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that to the best of my knowledge Mr Carter followed a proper process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8e348ec3a0a4b43b342592b76860008\u0022\u003EWorking for Families Package\u2014Benefit from Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244dba719ad694edfb242797ac10c2169\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: How many families will benefit from changes to the Working for Families package from 1 April?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002212b6fb5b4e2a4860bbd853d6bcbceaee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212b6fb5b4e2a4860bbd853d6bcbceaee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E From 1 April three out of every four New Zealand families with dependent children will be entitled to tax credits through the Working for Families package. From 1 April, therefore, an estimated 85,000 extra families will become entitled to those tax credits, bringing to about 350,000 the total number of New Zealand families eligible for family assistance tax credits under the Working for Families package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245688a7af78a45078d0a7299957e09b6\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: How do families know whether they are one of the three in four families eligible for Working for Families tax credits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b039bb1969d42d6a7db0ef852872f8d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Eligibility depends on family income and the number of dependent children. For example, a family with one child under 16 could earn up to $69,320 a year and still qualify, while a family with three young children could earn as much as $93,760 a year and still qualify. Families can easily check their eligibility through the Working for Families and Inland Revenue Department websites, or by phoning or texting the advertised contact numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a43ad79c08c4e7196daa2d42e5bdef7\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why, given Labour\u2019s supposed commitment to social equity, will the Minister not reallocate the money given to the Working for Families in-work payment, so that family support is increased to at least $20 a week for all families, including those of the 230,000 children dependent on benefit income, instead of redistributing more and more taxpayers\u2019 money to the better-off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273ed83dbf22f4482bbdca24c72347d62\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in answer to the member\u2019s question last week, and can confirm, the average weekly amount already received by beneficiary families from the Working for Families components has already increased by an estimated $32 per family. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63f8f831e0d4a96be666c8e7eb6b7b0\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: What other countries provide tax relief similar to New Zealand\u2019s Working for Families package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e11f78ff0e5d4b9ba02989d4e139554a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Most OECD countries provide targeted tax assistance to families with dependent children. Australian families are eligible for a family tax benefit on a combined family income of up to about A$90,000, depending on the age and number of children. In the United Kingdom, tax assistance to working families is provided through a child tax credit, for which around 85 percent of families are eligible. Those countries recognise, as does this Government, the need to target tax credits where they are needed and not provide tax cuts for the wealthy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e44c3cfded444eda84de8ebf2015ef9\u0022\u003EEconomic Development, Associate Minister\u2014Policy Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022024350da2b644a619f1c9268f58242dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Economic Development: What part has he played in general policy development as an Associate Minister for Economic Development since taking up the role?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3035a7668ca4420812f2cabe98a03d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3035a7668ca4420812f2cabe98a03d4\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS (Associate Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E I have been involved in the development of industry and regional development policy over several years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f65ead7dca049c3b1296723461fafd7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Associate Minister stand by his quoted statements in the lead article of the Independent newspaper today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2af2fbd0be41babacdda84c8fa88c2\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: A number of statements were made in the article today. I say to this House that those statements were made from my experience as a member of the Far North District Council, both as a councillor and a member of the hearings committee on the council, over a number of years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d0c56205d0048e78c70c2f9246e06af\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister really telling the House that the extensive comments he made in the Independent article about the Whangamata marina, which is about 200 kilometres south of the area of the Far North District Council, and his comments about the ministerial veto in the Resource Management Act, are to be believed, given his role as a former Far North District councillor rather than as a member of this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d2e949322bc44589e3e7c4089f76877\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to that member: absolutely. That is the contribution I made, and I made it quite clear to the journalist, Tim Donoghue, that I was commenting and observing through the process and the experience I had when I was a councillor and a member of the hearings committee\u2014and sometimes on the other side, as an applicant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a791770be9444da07496154757cc5a\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder whether you could help the House, and perhaps help the Minister in answering the question. It seems to me that the Minister is taking an odd position when, on being questioned in the House about what he is quoted in the press as having said, he says that he was speaking then not as a Minister but in some other capacity. It seems to me that as a member of this House, the Minister has no opportunity to do that. He is a Minister of the Crown 24/7, 365 days of the year. He cannot make a whole lot of comments he now wishes he had not made, then turn up to the House and not be held to account for them because he says he was talking about being a district councillor. That is certainly not possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222000aaceed8d41b5b08ecaf8460b98ad\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba290bc6a10447308652b4801552c2a3\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: What about when the member\u2019s a private investigator?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac8921dadc5f4d49aa8f2b5e3ba4c485\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is all right. I do not really need any assistance on this matter, but I thank the member. I make two points in my ruling. First, members are, of course, answerable only for comments they make in the course of their responsibilities as Ministers or Associate Ministers. Second, I point out that many members have several capacities. For instance, some are party leaders as well as being Ministers, and as well as being members of the House. That is perfectly in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b14eb74c3f74e62923ff1018ae64430\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: As the Associate Minister has brought his experience into the issue, can he recall how many times while he was sitting on the Far North District Council the Hon Nick Smith told him and that council that he intended to repeal National\u2019s Resource Management Act\u2014was it 100 times, 50 times, 20 times, or not at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e2a325d32e4e18b6a32472cb2dc481\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; that question is out of order. The Minister is responsible in this House only for his actions as a Minister. Does the member wish to rephrase the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212d75e9c0b8542ad8ad5fa088fddcef9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister, in his second answer today, put his experience as a councillor at issue, which is one of the experiences that was brought into an evaluation of matters in respect of the Resource Management Act today, does he recall how many times while he was gaining that experience as a councillor that Nick Smith, then in charge of the Resource Management Act, promised to repeal the legislation\u2014was it 100 times, 50 times, 20 times, or never?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c31bd8b2ba9b4be9b761a2f6288b213b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member\u2019s question is based on the premise that I was in charge of the Resource Management Act. At no time, among the many ministerial portfolios I had, was I the Minister for the Environment. I will be pleased to be put in that role in the next Don Brash Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4cefa0c1444214b8f285bf18c58610\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I come back to the original ruling. The Minister is responsible only for his actions as a Minister, not as a councillor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f6c122068fa4e62bc9c317b9e60a9f7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister was allowed to give the second answer, at which time he put at issue his experience, which I think is very valuable experience. I wanted to know whether, while he was gaining that experience, he witnessed any intervention from the then Minister of Conservation, who was in charge of significant portions of the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022676f0718b0704ec991179faa7c0917ec\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I ruled the question out of order. I will not go back on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0448249bb5b4cd3988cf9e7789cc9ef\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give examples of his involvement in economic development and policy making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022035576d2b4a646f394090dc65ca0a166\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: I have been involved in economic policy-making on behalf of the tangata whenua, the M\u0101ori people of this country, in advocating for the Hui Taumata, in setting up economic development agencies right around this country, and also in the promotion of M\u0101ori tourism throughout New Zealand\u2014and right now 13 M\u0101ori tourism organisations make a valid contribution to the economy of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dbce88e17024e6fa259c2f92bd635a5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: When he made his disparaging comments about the Hon Chris Carter to his colleagues in the Labour caucus room, did he explain to them at the time that he was speaking as a previous Far North District Council councillor, or had he forgotten to put on that hat at that moment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267d5002e938f4e039fefe4105eac3077\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: Let me say that I have never made disparaging comments about my colleague Chris Carter. I hold my colleague in the highest esteem and integrity, and he and I have been friends for a long, long time. It is a little different from that mob on the Opposition side of the House. I wonder what happens in their caucus when nobody is listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ca2b737073043f58788aa58a998b1cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: In his role as Associate Minister for Economic Development, how many reports has he managed to access from the Minister of Conservation\u2019s office, when it was in the charge of the Hon Nick Smith, that set out to amend or repeal the Resource Management Act; is it 10, five, or none?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238789f9be23b4431a5ce9fe4ef24c755\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: In my time as a district councillor and member of the hearings committee, there certainly were a lot of comments relating to the Resource Management Act and also to the then Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aada96b23224f8eac430d0707aa1167\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but the Minister has heard me say that he is responsible only for matters in his capacity as Minister. The question was correctly put. Could the Minister please address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9af2f6d67c42ffa2e7fe62bf2e3948\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: I have not heard any comments about Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146575681ad540c5983405c72ceac9b5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: For the benefit of the member for Tauranga, who is usually asleep at Cabinet, I seek leave to table the\u2014[Interruption] I am sorry, the previous member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f534e0f836ca4eb4bd510a1c48bce90d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please be seated. I thought we were trying now not to make disparaging comments about other members when we raise points of order or ask questions. Would the member please put his point of order. If he wants to table a document, he should please seek leave for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a92151d7ee5041a39306676589332c0e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Owen McShane review, done in 1998, of the Resource Management Act, which included the recommendation that the ministerial veto of the Minister of Conservation be removed. It was supported by me at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b37c6091b143eea5cb131924959872\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d1a548d54064e97b3206beff750e490\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think Nick Smith should be asked to withdraw and apologise, first of all, for making an allegation about Bob Clarkson and his ability to stay awake, and, second, for misleading the House by saying he is a member of Cabinet, which he will never be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a05ecd12034b7a90534cd212d8f9d2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b84bc7dfa034603a811c4c742bde8df\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Hon Dover Samuels, Associate Minister for Economic Development, agree with Dover Samuels, Far North District councillor, in criticising Chris Carter\u2019s \u201Cunfair\u201D decision in respect of Whangamata and his statement that the ministerial veto of restricted coastal activities should be repealed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0100c9563aa4e19a85b2cdcad7c8973\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. With respect, if he is asked to compare two experiences, one of which by the Standing Orders and your rulings is out of order, there cannot be an answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ad139ade1e49bebfa9b68ac3ab17c3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: You have ruled already that a member can ask for an opinion, and can certainly ask for a Minister\u2019s opinion of some other comment. That question is perfectly in order, and the Minister is required to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4bcf6ed74524999a4869d2b9bd43459\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: I draw your attention, Madam Speaker, to Speaker\u2019s ruling 139/3 from Mr Speaker Kidd. He states: \u201CThe primary condition of asking a question of a Minister is that the Minister has ministerial responsibility for the subject matter of the question.\u201D He then goes on to state: \u201CIf there is no ministerial responsibility, there can be no question.\u201D I would submit that not only this question but many of the other questions asked this afternoon on this subject are out of order in that there is no ministerial responsibility, and, further, that much of the strife we have got into in recent weeks has been because of the practice of allowing members to ask questions that have only a tangential relationship to the responsibility of the person they seek an answer from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2bb7272264a4300a4db65166dfd85d8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Dunne raises an interesting ruling that was put in place by Speaker Kidd, but let us be very clear. Dover Samuels is Associate Minister for Economic Development. Economic development is very much threatened by the Whangamata decision. We would assume that that is why Dover Samuels was so publicly critical of the Minister of Conservation. For two Ministers who are taking different positions to try to hide that difference by climbing in behind the Standing Orders or Speakers\u2019 rulings is quite wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAs for the comments that have been allowed from Mr Samuels that on that particular day he was not speaking as a Minister, but rather as someone who had some recollection of being a district councillor some years before, that of course, opens up the whole question as well as to whether he should be asked other questions. I think that Mr Peters\u2019 question should have been allowed to stand, because the answers given by Mr Samuels would be about as ridiculous as the decision that was made by Chris Carter in the first place. So although Mr Dunne suggests that over a period of time there have been some supposedly tangential questions, we suggest that many of those questions would not arise if Ministers gave straight answers in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be2c27fb8c4c4494bcd7806cc9454f66\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order should be brief, and not long speeches. I get the grasp of the member\u2019s issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba3930a9cf154ce3ab290bbd3c054297\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Reiterating a false interpretation of the original answer does not make it true. Mr Samuels did not say he was answering as a Far North District councillor; he said he was drawing on his experience as a Far North District councillor. That he is perfectly entitled to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a732b5f88aec4843b472288dc1e2c3ee\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022212d3b6e180646c5a064009e296ae358\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am ruling on the point of order. When looking at the Associate Minister\u2019s responsibility, I say there has to be an official connection between the two positions. So I rule that the point made by the Rt Hon Winston Peters is correct. The question needs to be resubmitted, so that there is a connection. There is not at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642b9c2a60534e33babf932c038925f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does Dover Samuels, Associate Minister for Economic Development with responsibility for assistance in the development of policy, agree with the Dover Samuels, a former Far North District councillor who was quoted extensively in the Independent today, criticising\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647d5299e91c46b8a6029f80b73ca934\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a41b72d25dfe42e5a9acbb5b95de2ecf\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the member is right. He could put his question without the latter bit, and it would be within the rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228298c355107b40419942008f7a7a5631\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: For goodness\u2019 sake!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279146f2f6f0a4ed5a2b9d3000cf80fb3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223590603df90149ef8c3f22f836f9e87a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is no official connection between the two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249704954c7a54787876b427523a29e77\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It was not the Opposition that went down the line of Ministers being able to wear different hats on different occasions. It was not the Opposition that allowed the Minister to suggest today that every comment he made as the Minister about Chris Carter was in praise of him. Yet we are able to read that somehow, as district councillor, Dover Samuels was not very happy with Chris Carter. All Dr Smith is asking is whether the Minister agrees with the chap who is apparently a former district councillor. It is Mr Samuels who has put on two hats, and it is the Chair who has allowed that to happen. Our opportunity to question the Associate Minister should not in any way be diminished because of the utterly ridiculous way in which the Government wishes to present itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e45a6b035ee4ff2bca7998fcca3bdfe\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I want to make two serious points. The first one is that if the questioner seeks a comparison between a ministerial position and a prior one, then no comparison can be made. That is the point I am making. But the second one is far more serious. It is the propensity of that member to get on his feet, take the House\u2019s time for minutes, and not articulate one principle of law at all, or any principle from the Standing Orders, and get away with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5604917efe442bb0487af7d49715fa\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My point of order is not on the substance of that issue, but on the fact that you have repeatedly ruled that points of order are to be heard in silence. I saw four front-bench National Party members who were not silent during that point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200800b7ab5d243c39c6e635561145612\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did too, so I remind members to please respect that ruling. I have endeavoured throughout question time to make sure questions and answers are within the Standing Orders. It seems to me it is important that we all do that, and that questions should be within the Minister\u2019s official capacity. I have ruled on that. I will take no further discussion on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f568c8e9b40474bae565aac1ec99fbb\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3a7880183a24eac9f723a2911351c9a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Brownlee, this point of order has to be a totally different one. I have ruled on the matter, and we have had a considerable discussion on it. If it is on another point, that is fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223365ed84183749abb284911a7c44ed13\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: As you know, all our questions have to be verified at various times, so if we now receive a news report of a member of the Labour Government making a statement somewhere that is of interest to us, are we constrained by the description that is put upon that person? It seems to me today that the Minister has decided that he will not be scrutinised on this matter because he is saying he made his statements in a capacity other than as a Minister. Perhaps there should be some directive to all members of the Government that when they make statements, to indicate, as you would put it, Madam Speaker, which hat they have on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022464bb9dbfdce459ba8ac256eeae5756c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The original question was perfectly in order; the supplementary questions have strayed off the point. But I would refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 140/6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255eba51340f4a2db181550cce1da2e9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does Dover Samuels, the Associate Minister for Economic Development with responsibility in the delegations for policy development, agree with Dover Samuels, a former Far North District councillor, who has extensively criticised\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bca2733d8a741f98fb3626afe0c76b5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but the member is repeating the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208210a2ea19846d8ba7dce20d8965a4e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I made it absolutely plain that I am asking the Minister, in his role as an Associate Minister for Economic Development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af1e1c09710e45099233aaa95c570ecc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member stopped there, he would be all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cee9696b162b4a8584a18125e2197cbb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: The delegations make plain\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cc628d7899c47c7b508f4aa10c9d991\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member is now being deliberately obtuse. He has been warned twice as to the impropriety of his question. He cannot make that comparison. The question is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb41aba1cc34bb99c7c6a22037461b0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on this matter. It is the comparison that is out of order. It is not the substance of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ee7392647ae4a4ba789723b98454e7b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That is a farce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f6a8eed1524d2881cfb2dd0b731829\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb1ab178737d44a39b9ff0fe9af2025c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: This is just a farce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278609718f5e84b079a58184a89e6e1c5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You may well say so, but you will be out of the Chamber. Please leave now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Nick Smith withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022032789ff8a82483ba4a1e56ffe8cbc58\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Why have you accepted an answer from Mr Dover Samuels that he did not speak to either the Labour Party caucus or the Independent as a Minister, but rather as a free-wheeling individual who had some experience as a Far North District councillor of those matters, and that those matters had annoyed him? You allowed that answer to stand. When we come to the House we look at the delegation and say the Associate Minister for Economic Development, presumably recognising that the veto exercised by the Minister of Conservation will terrify anybody who is looking at that sort of development in the future, makes those statements by drawing on his experience. But apparently he is not able to be questioned on them, simply because he chooses to designate himself as being in a different role at the time he made them. That does make this process utterly farcical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac14ed51f8844e2820163a9a7d6bfe4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I point out to Mr Brownlee for the last time that there is nothing new about Ministers acting in different capacities in which they are liable to be required to give answers to questions in the House. I have checked what the Minister said, and have told him to confine himself to the responsibilities, and I have said the questions had to be related to his ministerial responsibilities. That is what is in the Standing Orders. The question could have been asked within the Standing Orders. We will now move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222baabead5e4a4db8b486d42fc8c003e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. From my long experience in this Chamber, I know that when a member is asked to exit the Chamber in the way that you asked the Hon Dr Smith, and that member then hurls abuse at the Chair there are further consequences. I want to know what you intend to do in respect of his behaviour, which is simply unacceptable. In the past, any member who has done that has been punished. What does the Chair propose to do now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0ce10052144494fa2f41f826a3e3262\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am considering the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ace934d22954fe3b5af4e6df9ebe1c5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What consequences for development in coastal marine areas does he believe the decision of the Minister of Conservation over the Whangamata proposal will have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be3fe24270314a15b6cc3af0fa51d636\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that the Minister of Conservation should have overall jurisdiction in terms of the final decision under the Act. That Act was put into place by a National Government. But I also understand the complexity of any application for coastal permits, when there has to be consideration of other stakeholders in terms of the particular activity being applied for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b298c871b6574b46a1030ea192b9c62b\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Hon Dover Samuels, wearing whichever hat happens to suit, accept the sincere and wholehearted congratulations of every member of the Opposition on his very perceptive comments about Mr Chris Carter\u2019s decision on the Whangamata marina?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022890f60a82aa04da49d9e875621c938af\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: I inform the Leader of the Opposition that I wear only one hat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec75e07f4d0649ae85deb7aba6c927a5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What discussions has the Associate Minister had with the Far North District Council, or any other district council or environmental council, about the consequences of the Whangamata decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266d9050680f24cda8c68c03bceb5af64\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: I was on a local authority for over 20 years. I have not communicated with any local authorities or any regional councils in terms of the observations I have made to the Independent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa3feef0039b4ef68335284b0e1cffa9\u0022\u003ERoading\u2014Public-private Partnerships\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e6a7d2b97741689bd67de12e519dc4\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does he agree that public-private partnership contracts for road infrastructure are an efficient and cost-effective way to build roads and should be encouraged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00220252d3d6ee9f406db616b44566e0e40e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220252d3d6ee9f406db616b44566e0e40e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Acting Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The member will be aware that it was this Government that made public-private partnerships a legal possibility. The fact that no one has yet to formally approach us probably reflects the fact that this Government\u2019s huge increase in investment has, to some extent, crowded out opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254435193e0ce4156b0ca3b0c252ca633\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government ignored the importance of encouraging private sector involvement in the provision of infrastructure, when it is \u201Cessential in helping to deliver the much-needed infrastructure required on the national road network\u201D, as stated by the Irish Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a933684e12f543a3a697aba4ff533922\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: We do not ignore the private sector. We could not build transport infrastructure without the private sector. They are the only people who build transport infrastructure. We contract to the private sector to build transport infrastructure. Part of the funding comes directly from the private sector, and will increasingly do so under the current Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f101970bdbdc4e6db526d520c3c69c7d\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen a transcript of the Paul Holmes breakfast show this morning on which Mr Holmes said to Tau Henare: \u201CThe reason we\u2019ve got all these roading problems in Auckland is because your lot failed completely in the 1990s to spend sufficient money on the Auckland roading infrastructure.\u201D, and has the Minister seen the member\u2019s response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade9c79184bb4ddca0c8cd4da83baa0d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. The member in question responded: \u201CYou are, you are absolutely right. You are absolutely right.\u201D I think the member is absolutely right when he says that is absolutely right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214a37aac05a64ba7b5055e7df1c3de4e\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the answers to the earlier questions\u2014not the last one\u2014will the Minister tell us precisely what private participation can achieve, when it comes to road building, that cannot be accomplished by the public sector alone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022144116539756444abf433ed34ca6f42a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Public-private partnerships can have some advantages in the bringing in of new ideas and understandings in terms of construction and management. That is the logical idea. It certainly is not cheaper money, because the Government can borrow money more cheaply than the private sector can, so it has to be something to do with the ability that the private sector brings to the process. What is also the case is that it is clear from international experience that public-private partnerships do not always work, and often work best in large or very large projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1a9e1ed86d4036b56215f783f7bd1e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s answer today that the Government is prepared to proceed with public-private partnerships, will he now make available the Government\u2019s share of the investment required to enable the public-private partnership for the construction of the Penlink toll road to proceed, given that the failure to proceed with it is strangling access to the Whangapar\u0101oa Peninsula; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223743777cdee8452298b9291c1a9a759d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: In an earlier time, as Minister of Transport, and prior to the last election, I met with those people representing the Penlink proposal. [Interruption] I am answering the member\u2019s question, if he would like to hold his tongue. I met them in Rodney. I met them prior to the election and I said: \u201CThe next thing that has to happen is that you guys need to approach us.\u201D I am still waiting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226204bce628644d6387af1314219b14be\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve approached you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bafd651b1a74b1eb878a04faf05a9c4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: To my knowledge, there has been no formal approach to the Government in respect of Penlink. As far as I am aware, there has been no approach. I must say that I want to know why the member voted against the legislation that allowed for this. I want to know that, because those members are all in favour of it, but when they had a chance to vote in favour of it they all said no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093d7dde77a349e98b00f82300b716aa\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was very difficult to hear the Minister\u2019s answer. [Interruption] Just because you shout does not mean you are necessarily heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ecda97e3c4142b1921dc7c2260532f4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that private involvement in road building will more than likely result in tolls, and that employers can usually pass the toll on or make it tax deductible, but the average New Zealander has to pay it out of his or her net income; if so, does he believe that is fair and just?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b11c6092abf0488d8e1913f94c0c4af5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: There are many ways to service the capital that needs to be raised for a public-private partnership, and tolling is one of them. As the member suggests in his question, internationally it is a commonly used method. In a number of countries, including the one closest to us, it has run into a number of difficulties. Tolling has meant that there has been diversion, and that has meant that business models do not always stack up in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e52c93815b0402d814c4e073b022ffb\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government, in the light of the Minister\u2019s complimentary comments about public sector involvement, support my member\u2019s bill, the Land Transport Management (Public Private Partnerships) Amendment Bill, should it be drawn from the ballot, which will remove remaining roadblocks to public-private partnerships, or does the Government still feel constrained by its pre-2002 agreement with the Greens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b990b4e529774bb6ae83c42d3f47ef81\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can say uncomplicatedly that unofficial feedback to the Ministry of Transport from the private sector is that the Land Transport Management Act provisions are not a barrier to private sector involvement in road building. Therefore, the member\u2019s bill seeks to correct a problem that, as far as I am aware, does not exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228cb6318c679f42c883e0a30d9399ed46\u0022\u003ESchoolSmart Website\u2014Data Use\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8cb71cbf9f741748cd6d5f505a0ebf8\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What agreements, if any, exist between schools and education agencies that limit the use of data presented in the Ministry of Education\u2019s SchoolSmart website?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f79d8108f29f4b16bd9e705b9f9a9e58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f79d8108f29f4b16bd9e705b9f9a9e58\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The understanding is that the data is made available to inform schools of statistics of their own performance in a range of areas and to allow them to benchmark themselves against other schools. Parents can get this information from their local school, along with other important information, such as the sort of environment the school has, the kind of teacher programme it operates, and what actually happens in the classroom to benefit students. That gives context, of course, to that data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022150b4a1cb5bf4a43bbf2d918ae362c5f\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister has agreements that limit the use of the data, why has he publicly released to me, as a result of parliamentary questions, some of the data available on the SchoolSmart website, such as teacher turnover rates and suspension and stand-down rates, but continues to keep secret other bits of the data, such as a school\u2019s spending on administration and student retention rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c740b7b0d22e4b79b60de43a51143eee\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my answers to a number of the member\u2019s many questions on this topic, we are not releasing data that identify individual schools, but aggregate data that allow us to look at categories of schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aea98efa27c4e1da2e7d0a3ff49eaf7\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister elaborate on SchooolSmart and the benefits of running such a system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282f1ead14c124228a01cfee1a35e1c05\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: SchoolSmart is a website that displays information about individual schools compared with data from similar schools. Thirty-six reports are available, covering such areas as academic information, annual teacher turnover, expenditure on property and depreciation, roll change comparison by school type and area, ethnic and gender information, school-leaver information, and school retention to year 13 for secondary schools. I agree with the Secondary Principals Association of New Zealand, the New Zealand Principals Federation, the School Trustees Association, the New Zealand Educational Institute, and the Post Primary Teachers Association that the information is best released by the schools themselves, so that they can give context to the raw data. For the information of members of the House, I have here, for example, raw data on the turnover of teachers per school. It does not mean a lot to people unless it can be put into context, and that is why everybody in the education sector, apart from the lone critic, would like it done the way it is done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276ed444639424f94afcd95cf7fed0600\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister not surprised to find that all teacher groups are opposed to parents seeing this information, and why does he refuse to allow parents access to this website so they can see a range of data about the performance of their child\u2019s school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4b5b873d2e41b3b868aca24f5a18b6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It may be helpful to the member if I explain once again that teachers are not opposed to this. Parents can get access to this data through talking to their local school. What teachers are opposed to is having the data out of context. That is why they like to have it explained to parents within the local school. Mr English, people understand, wants to create league tables. Teachers see no value in that in relation to the education of people. They want to do it on the basis of good education, not league tables. They can get that information and they can get the context of the school wrapped around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ea5dc35dc94b029ac6324d868352f2\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What other information is available to parents to allow them to make informed choices about their children\u2019s education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022171ef7754d194d2cbffd1f61bed83add\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: A number of sources of information are available for parents. The best way for parents to make choices about their child\u2019s education is to look at things like the reports of the Education Review Office and to visit their local school to talk directly to teachers and principals, who will tell them about the school. They can make use of SchoolSmart information if they are talking with their local school, but because\u2014and I repeat this for the member\u2019s edification\u2014the sort of data I have in my hand is the kind of data they will get, it is best that they make use of that SchoolSmart data in the context of the school they are talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d902661d3e4b55a70fc43e8519be20\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister confirm for the House that what he has just said is not correct, and that if parents go to the SchoolSmart website they are not in fact presented with pages of detailed data but with clear graphic illustrations that compare the performance of their child\u2019s school with other similar schools\u2014and that parents are not stupid and could quite easily digest that information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb916bdf6b7741c29e232c3bfc268147\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: That is what I have just said. If parents talk to a local school they will gain access to that kind of information about their school, but they will also have the advantage of having it in the context of that school. The data I have here was, in fact, pulled off the website, so yes, it is the data they could get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e612e2e6d6aa4f2d835861f62e89c306\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Government\u2019s view that the school principal should be allowed to look at this information, that the teachers in the school should be allowed to look at it, that the Ministry of Education and the Education Review Office should be allowed to look at it, that he should be allowed to look at it, and that Opposition spokespeople who can find a friendly principal can have a look at it, and that the only people who are not allowed to look at it are parents\u2014the people who have the most vital interest in the progress of that school; and what does he say to parents to explain why he regards them as too ignorant to deal with this dangerous information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246cd0226a1964765b165062529ce78d9\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The first thing I would say to members is not to listen to the member\u2019s characterisation of SchoolSmart, because it is not true. The way that this data is used\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aca0fa44461247ed8f02cf8b66ad123f\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I take offence at the Minister making a statement that a statement I made in the House was not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9d29f9706f42b28736f1f478a57747\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has taken offence. Would the Minister withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298228bec73cd4048a31e7d3ac7367a9e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member has just told me that what I said was untrue. So it is OK for him but not OK for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f50128a3f36446295f50c9e629049bb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has asked for the statement to be withdrawn and for the member to apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e9ac244bad4349a32d69996d56ea39\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. Can I say to the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc5a32858fbe44eab7951578fb13ee0e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f87f04e3a8f4202ab7ac2e512c4d39a\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I sat here and listened to Bill English call across this House: \u201CThat\u2019s not true.\u201D several times, when the Minister was on his feet. He has double standards. He does not like it when the Minister says it back. I took offence. I believe he ought to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8daa8e4ff9148deb969263304870a21\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you cannot ask for another member to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022578eceb152d649de8cc06203c0a042c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: We are in a difficulty here, because simply saying that a statement is not true does not imply that somebody is lying; it merely means that he or she got something factually incorrect. We continually get into this trouble in the House when people assert motives and implications behind a statement that is a simple statement of interpretation. If we rule out saying the statement is not true, then I think we are in an awful lot of trouble in this House, because we would have to find convoluted ways of saying the same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022977c6035945c472c87d75fa4d16b8b09\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with Dr Cullen, to the extent that to say something is not true is to say it is not correct\u2014that it is not right. It does not mean that the argument is taken further to personalise that the person making the statement is seeking to lie to the House. If we have this lily-livered behaviour from National members every time they do not like something, then this House will be a very\u2014[Interruption] This is a point of order, I should be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235cccef3a890449fa0e13dd8df33ecbf\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. Would the member please just come to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8953964d0d34c4ea8bfd1a5286113c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am entitled to make my points of order without a barrage from National members, something which is all too frequently happening. Can I be heard in silence? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022785968eeb5fb4508babccd443c1a7ef2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and would you please make your point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090ab46b626346a8aace1d3bd4d0125b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is this: to say that something is not true, that it is incorrect, or that it is false does not imply that the person is a liar or deliberately setting out to mislead the House. The other point I am seeking to make is that we have countless points of order being taken here that have no precedent in the past, and if they were to be supported, as your initial ruling suggested, this House would be a thoroughly antiseptic and insipid place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a962ceeb119493b8853f9ee4e889d40\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the members. The member is entitled to ask for a personal reflection to be withdrawn, and I understood that is what the member was doing. If, in fact, a member does take offence, then, of course, objection has to be taken by that member at the time. But the Rt Hon Winston Peters is correct: \u201Cuntrue\u201D does not imply lying\u2014a point also made by Dr Cullen\u2014but it can be taken as a personal reflection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a486a08a1c4bea99c2e36ab73d5cde\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I would say to parents what I said in my original answer, and I repeat it for the member: what we have here is a data source that allows schools\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af9ea35ae6884c748834d17ba547dac1\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You made your ruling. You asked the Minister to withdraw and apologise, and the House is still waiting for that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2e7b20868fa409eb40d01f3abe95f6a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. I heard the Minister withdraw\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022013ac425e0bc4ba08984c10b0b5bc1bf\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: You made a ruling, Madam Speaker. You directed the Minister to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204faf84d0e1b48aa9ce8175c61d8ad03\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister please affirm that he withdrew and apologised. If he did not, would he please stand and do so. I am sorry, I thought I heard the Minister say that. The Minister has said he withdrew and apologised. His word is taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ba9a86e449341619d84fed5abf32074\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: To make life a whole lot easier for the House, I withdraw and apologise. In answer to the question, I would say to parents what I said in my original answer to the original question\u2014that is, the data is made available to inform schools about their own performance in a range of areas, which allows them to benchmark against similar kinds of schools. Parents can get access to that information by approaching the school, and that is a good way to do it because then the information can be placed in context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0dc073848754f46916e7e13db156452\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister now saying that he is happy for parents to have the information in any context, except the context of comparison with another school, and does he believe that it is evil intent on the part of parents to want to see comparisons between their child\u2019s school and other schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a59de772a19b4da2abcd6de9b1736afd\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221686e7c0508d46bc9aeda81923fcb48f\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can I take it from what the Minister has said that if schools agree to have their parents accessing this information, then he will direct the Ministry of Education to allow access by those parents, with the agreement of the school, to the SchoolSmart website, which is by far the easiest way for parents to get hold of the information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022978379571170475a884067a6cd620e53\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will not direct the Ministry of Education to do that, for the very simple reason that we have a very workable system now. Schools can be approached by parents to talk about this. We will not buy in to league tables, which is what Bill English is arguing for with his privatisation agenda. No one in the education system agrees with the lone critic. He remains the lone critic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223613ddfe9cdf4dc8b551d8beccec70b7\u0022\u003EJustice, Minister\u2014UMR Survey, M\u0101ori\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286fe279463ad438985b01d7a28e76fb9\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Has he been informed of the results of the UMR survey released yesterday, which found there was strong overall agreement (66 percent agree; 12 percent disagree) to the statement that \u201Cin addition to having the same rights as all New Zealanders, Maori have the right to live as Maori\u201D, and what is his response to this finding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002241caf170c0e9427a8b2bbfa4b3a0b554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241caf170c0e9427a8b2bbfa4b3a0b554\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have been informed of the results of the survey that was released yesterday by the Human Rights Commission to mark Race Relations Day 2006. The finding that the member refers to is encouraging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ffb7c4f86f547ac9041cad949ef2dad\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Ka taea e ia te whakam\u0101rama mai i te aronga o ng\u0101 kupu, \u201Ckia t\u016B rangatira ai hei M\u0101ori?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Is he able to explain what is meant by \u201Clive and succeed as M\u0101ori\u201D?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec54507c9c34859b505068a4add34d8\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I did not author the report, but certainly I would take it to mean to fully participate in, and to have the economic, social, and cultural benefits of, a full, healthy, and wholesome life in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c34aaf18ad46eeaa23e55c0eac9a6f\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister, given his response to the primary question, describe what is meant by \u201Cto live as M\u0101ori\u201D, and is this the reason that so many M\u0101ori are relocating to Australia\u2014now one in seven; soon to be one in three\u2014where they can obviously \u201Clive as M\u0101ori\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7951fa799d349a183d127de3504c112\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: What I meant is essentially what I answered to Dr Sharples\u2019 supplementary question. To add to that answer, a good example of what I was describing is the record number of M\u0101ori in jobs, and the record number of young M\u0101ori in education, in industry-based training, and in Modern Apprenticeships\u2014those are all good examples of young M\u0101ori in this country who are fully participating in New Zealand society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292edd3853cf7414ca439d81679d44b28\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: I runga i te kaupapa kei te whakaae te nuinga o Niu T\u012Breni kia \u201Cnoho taketake te M\u0101ori, hei M\u0101ori\u201D he aha \u014Dna tohutohu ki te Minita m\u014D te Manat\u016B Aorere, n\u0101, ko te whakautu o Niu T\u012Breni ki te kaupapa kua whakaritea m\u014D ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata whenua o te ao, kei te h\u0113, kei te kuare, n\u0101 te mea kare he k\u014Drero m\u014D te M\u0101ori engari ka h\u0101ngai anake ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D \u201Cte katoa o te iwi\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[As New Zealanders generally agree that \u201CM\u0101ori have the right to live as M\u0101ori\u201D, what action will he take to advise the Minister of Foreign Affairs that the New Zealand response to the draft declaration on the rights of indigenous people is both unjust and ill-informed in failing to mention M\u0101ori people but instead focusing only on \u201Call citizens\u201D?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d01bebc6844e899b02f34a4541c4ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. To the best of my knowledge, this country is called New Zealand. That is not the name that Mr Sharples just gave this nation, and he should not be allowed to let it creep into the language by way of using the M\u0101ori language in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267f122733da64d6dbedf1db762a87646\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf089f9c7b4c4429b004ffff9ab72d37\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This country is not Niu Tireni; it is New Zealand, and some call it Aotearoa. But that other name is not ascribed to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a7d2858ab84e1ba9685c69bf1b5896\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order; it may well be a matter of fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bf4a67252bd43ca8422fd2b21e71ba7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. When the question was asked, it had that word in it for describing this nation. The House surely recognises what name this country is called. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260abd07a5e49488680caba386dda6fa0\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Since the 18th century M\u0101ori have been referring to this country as Niu T\u012Breni, Niu T\u012Brani, or Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606f28ae58c848d38d7daf59eb67e7ea\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Members can use whatever terms they like; it is not to be ruled what is correct or not. We will now ask for the interpretation, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c1abd860d6e493d9db3023655770d00\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member identifies, I do not have ministerial responsibility for the report in question\u2014but I do frequently engage in useful discussion with the Minister of Foreign Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226220560c8a9e4a2299cd358abc2f71ed\u0022\u003EOil and Gas Exploration\u2014Bidding Result\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224178ac0d1c84234924d749c9b7ed68c\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Energy: When will he announce the bidding result of the Government\u2019s four oil and gas exploration block offers off the East Coast of the North Island and nine block offers in offshore Taranaki that closed on 17 February 2006?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u002221b1d498a8054a9681cc7eebd6c1d3aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221b1d498a8054a9681cc7eebd6c1d3aa\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E I will be pleased to announce the results of the block offers as soon as the assessment process is completed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed66752954a841139df560a377f032cb\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Will that Minister admit to the House today that he has again failed to secure successful bids for the oil and gas exploration off the East Coast, and off the coast of Taranaki\u2014just as earlier this year explorers rejected his three deep-sea Taranaki offers and his three Northland block on offer\u2014and, if he does admit that, is he at all concerned in light of New Zealand\u2019s urgent need to replace disappearing Mau\u012B gas? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217cbee6c8bff41f698ab184ede2ce505\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: In the mid-1990s the industry was concerned about the depletion of the M\u0101ui Gas field and drew attention to the need to address the issue\u2014without any action from the then National Government. After careful consideration, in 2004 the Labour-led Government introduced the following initiatives: firstly, adjustments to tax provisions; secondly, reductions in royalty rates for new discoveries; thirdly, additional funding to promote investment in New Zealand; and, finally, the Government-funded seismic data that has since been made freely available to support block offers. Those initiatives were designed to encourage and expedite exploration, and to yield discoveries that will make a material difference to the security of New Zealand\u2019s gas and oil needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c51e6ede418e437aad8ac9436e8a2ed9\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Why are there no bids?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfcad0f796a94683bb619ba44a61ff7c\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why no bids?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d7448911de4278a48343d6b15ef576\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I invite members to wait for the announcement on successful block offers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a474c372b3840649ff995b7ada38c0b\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government\u2019s expenditure led to increased exploration activity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7101e9b8a5448bcafdb306fbcd41ac3\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: It has, certainly. Bidding parties for the East Coast have stated that the timely availability of new data has materially changed perceptions of the potential of the East Coast basin, and stimulated their wider interest in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d431d32f8aa4e0b822c094cadb257d4\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that there is no bidding war when it comes to the Northland, Taranaki, and East Coast block offers, but there is just him, with a white flag of surrender, wallowing around in failure\u2014part of an entire Government that is in failure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f59460d7ad7b4c4db76a9651ba0c793c\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure where the member opposite is getting his information from, at all. He certainly cannot have been at the recent oil and gas conference held in Auckland, or he would know that the industry is not only very buoyant but we have twice\u2014I repeat, twice\u2014the number of wells being drilled in recent years than in any time in which the National Party was Government. I invite those members to wait for the results of the bidders\u2019 offers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8508280dabd47cdaa432f32c90fb302\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Associate Minister explain to the House that there has also been a hurricane called Katrina in the Gulf of Mexico, which has slightly reduced the availability of drilling rigs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e878960be4314c7cb99b1a80b235366c\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is quite correct. There has been a reduction worldwide in the availability of rig slots. I can tell members, just for their information, that rigs were previously available prior to Hurricane Katrina for around US$150,000 per day. A particular company working in New Zealand had one of its operations managers strongly criticised for agreeing to a contract at $180,000 per day, but he is now being lauded for agreeing to that contract, because drilling rig rates will be around $500,000 per day for the next 3 years. [Interruption] I tell the member that he needs to do a thorough bit of research into how the industry operates. I have also to say that he is one of the brightest of the current National members of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9cf172e41044829bf109ade363742b8\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: In the Minister\u2019s recent speech to that very Petroleum Conference he referred to, he said: \u201CHave these initiatives been successful? I think it is too early to tell.\u201D, so did he not really mean that all those failures mean it is too late to matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0b5901913254f73a5508162a26ed746\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am very happy that the member mentioned my speech, to which I had a really marvellous reaction. We have received a very positive response from the entire oil and gas exploration industry to the initiatives taken. That is confirmed by companies recently telling the Ministry of Economic Development that the availability of data had very much influenced them to look seriously at New Zealand. We will wait for the results of the block offers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec986478c584add90c71ba20ba2e191\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister apprised the Prime Minister of all his modest successes in his portfolio as Associate Minister of Energy, of his unwavering loyalty and endless years of service, and of all those successful bids, given that the job of Minister of Energy is now on block offer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d745bfa83e9e4967b3d7550fa631e13d\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike the little member opposite, who waves the flag a lot, I am sure the Prime Minister is aware of my ability or otherwise in every field of endeavour around here. The member has raised a very good question as to the reaction of industry to the initiatives taken by the Government. I can tell the member that even members of his own party have congratulated me on the initiatives taken. As the member has raised it, I seek leave to table my address to the New Zealand Petroleum Conference, titled New Zealand\u2019s exploration outlook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a449ed195aeb4aefb1cfc9f8940748df\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6fc8301dd0644ceb516e75d6fa6c5e4\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document from the 1996 New Zealand Petroleum Conference proceedings, a very good paper by a Mr C Stone about the shortage of gas etc. in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479aab02b21e4c06a28593dd9f8c61d1\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a graph showing M\u0101ui\u2019s decline over the next 4 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e586d6238742480a9c74bdd1ef5332ca\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208d10f998d1144489198c28fd8e60572\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an article titled \u201CExplorers\u2019 begging bowl goes unfilled\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8be04c3f3644a138ddc0143503fc7fd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283442ba7c2884fa69afa1e5443597795\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an article titled \u201CGovernment drags its feet on oil exploration\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f7583cc693d4195824d4c1ebc4c9e63\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090b6820a0184f4892dab1b0ab182d3f\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an article titled \u201COverseas investors highlight barriers to investment in New Zealand\u201D. None of these articles were written by Harry Duynhoven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022891e022e6fe44b389106be0a0e3f5869\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7315228e5174d1e83fce24bd2bbd444\u0022\u003EClimate Change\u2014Obligations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b0e9583ea54a4fabfa30a374fade01\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: What is the Government\u2019s current best estimate of the amount by which New Zealand will fail to meet its climate change obligations by 2012, and what will the likely cost of this be to the taxpayer in 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022e49b2355935a4e758c54ca630bb8a0bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e49b2355935a4e758c54ca630bb8a0bd\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Acting Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E The member will recall that in May last year the official estimate of the net position changed from one of surplus, which had been the consistent advice over many years, to one of a deficit of 36 million tonnes. This was revised upwards last month to a deficit of 64 million tonnes, and the cost has been revised upwards to $562 million spread over the 5-year period from 2008 to 2012.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0fbcb78df47437ab9ea3e731dc6be72\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that it makes more sense to spend money now to pay New Zealanders to reduce our carbon emissions than to pay Russia for carbon credits in 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422debcc6a3548ec8e9f07d486a28c05\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: To the extent that that is a possibility, I think it does make sense. That is why 3 years ago or thereabouts we introduced the Projects to Reduce Emissions programme, which enabled people who could access carbon-abating technologies to do so in response to receiving carbon credits, if their plan or their activity was more expensive than business as usual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4404ea525b40938869a126679a7078\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How much carbon and how many dollars have been saved by the Government\u2019s Projects to Reduce Emissions policy, which has enabled most of our current wind power to get going; and will the Minister be able to assure the international climate change conference at Victoria University next week that this approach will be continued and expanded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6e77184cae147e5bb76490fa282a73e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Let me answer from memory. The Government has put into the market something like 10.5 million tonnes worth of carbon credits and\u2014because we run this thing at a profit\u2014has probably secured about 12 million tonnes of abatements. That is a difference of about 1.5 million tonnes. The current Treasury price for carbon is about $8 or $9 per tonne. One can do the sums from that. It feels like a $12 million or $13 million profit, or thereabouts. As to the continuation of the policy, the member will be aware that the Government has climate change policies under review, and the outcome of the answer to her last question will be part of that review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022048b2ad911ea4751b2ebc6cb51605060\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister regret the fact that New Zealand signed the Kyoto Protocol ahead of our major trading partners, given that all we have seen to date is increasing costs with no benefits whatsoever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feed07d1fe254259946dcb92f15bda6f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Leaving aside the fact that the projects to reduce emissions managed to kick-start wind energy in this country, as Jeanette Fitzsimons implied in her question, we need to be careful to address the fact of costs on both sides. There is a cost of doing nothing. I refer the member to some advice that I received from a member of this House that the cost of doing nothing is such that it will \u201Ceventually stuff life on Earth\u201D. That seems to me to be quite a costly thing to have happen. That advice comes from the Hon Dr Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b2fa4752bb47b5aecbaf18b569c819\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned at the rate at which forests are being cleared for conversion to farming, thus increasing our climate liabilities, and will the climate change policy review he mentioned seriously consider making some payment to the owners of forests planted since 1990 for the carbon they have stored, in order to discourage further deforestation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f9dbcc66f6b4cb1aa8febdbfb9246d2\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The policy suggestion the member has just come up with of course would increase the cost to the Government beyond the $500 million - plus that I announced in answer to the primary question, so we would need to take cognisance of any fiscal effects thereof. What is my view about the shift from forestry into non-forestry activities? It seems to me that a country that bases its economy on land resources has to have some flexibility of land use, and that is especially the case where forest was planted in areas where farming could not take place but now can because the cobalt deficiency in the soil that precluded farming from taking place has now been resolved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ce58c66dc6f443b82b16cfe22e2f6da\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister acknowledge to the House today that the entity responsible for the greatest amount of deforestation in New Zealand is the Government, through its entity Landcorp?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2f705781044d8b9704f2ef9a692fed\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It probably is\u2014I am just not sure, but it probably is\u2014because Landcorp has just picked up a bunch of land on the Rotorua-Taup\u014D road, which is the area where the cobalt deficiency occurred. It is logical that that would be the first part of New Zealand to be converted back to farming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c16e7cd0d144f54bfcb013ad631aa1a\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister really believe Nick Smith\u2019s statement, given the fact that New Zealand\u2019s total emissions are 0.001 percent of the world\u2019s carbon emissions, and is it really credible that that will ruin life on Earth as we know it\u2014because New Zealand First members do not think it is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0d3fdb6d276404ead9b52c8b1cfb7e7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is hard to know what the truth is. It is even harder to know what the truth is when one examines the various positions of the National Party. For example, its leader, Don Brash, quotes himself as saying: \u201CI am one who thinks the science is still debated.\u201D Even his mate President Bush does not believe that any more. On the other hand, Nick Smith says it will \u201Cstuff life on Earth\u201D. So one says nothing is going to happen, and the other one says everything is going to happen, and it is all a little bewildering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EQuestion time interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5028e8dd63a45928b5b3136925dff49\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e653bef8bf6641408b089fde14d412ab\u0022\u003EGovernment Notice of Motion No. 2\u2014Intelligence and Security Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022917adec1029d4847be33d5e9c5273846\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022917adec1029d4847be33d5e9c5273846\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I apologise for interrupting question time, but this matter relates to business later in the day. I have had drawn to my attention just a few moments ago that there is a mistake in a series of Standing Orders references in Government notice of motion No. 2 relating to the setting up of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I seek leave for updated Standing Orders references to be substituted at this point, so that members will have a chance to check the correct references well before we get to the notice of motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212a544f7dbb2439cb9cbc1b417f383e6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EQuestion time resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b72e153f9a3f4780a60361b7ef2d34c1\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225109a38a96c043369a06b7470bc9c2a9\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002292d97e6d50cd48ed96ddf07215add70e\u0022\u003ECorrections, Department\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e760c10404466ab899502123f6ef8f\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he have confidence in his department; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2bce816572a41ef94807dc754ecb5c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2bce816572a41ef94807dc754ecb5c2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, although there is always room for improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a59b8e0fa4c4b3fa5d8cfb2596b262d\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How can he continue to have confidence in his department, when Department of Corrections officers are taking inmates to the beach, rewarding them with porterhouse steak, ice cream, chocolates, fizzy drinks, and lollies, and showing pornographic videos in their cells at night, or is this what the Government meant when it said it was getting tough on criminals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221219519a59734ebf87a22e8896a5f19d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I will always support a system within the prisons that incentivises good behaviour. However, the incidents the member refers to are outside prison protocol. Disciplinary action has been taken, and they will not occur again. I would like to remind the member, regarding the steak incident, that we feed prisoners for $4 a day or thereabouts, and steak is not normally part of their diet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfcf305a15d544f7b03c9a6e0ea6d3e5\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have confidence that his department has the capacity to improve its efforts at rehabilitating prisoners, when only 65 inmates have been placed in drug treatment units in the last 7 months, out of an annual target of only 174\u2014a number the Ombudsman condemned as \u201Cextraordinary\u201D\u2014and when 83 percent of the prison population has a history of or a current drug and alcohol problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ad54d773234e0d9b607215dc3c409a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think we are doing well enough in the area of drug and alcohol treatment. We will be reviewing, and are reviewing, those programmes and we will be delivering better programmes to more prisoners in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bc31f8d5220402caf0163cd72755167\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can he give an assurance that the new rehabilitation programmes announced yesterday will include dedicated drug and alcohol programmes, in light of the fact that the number of positive tests for methamphetamine use in prisons has, according to his own answers to written questions, increased from five in the 1999-2000 year to 66 in the 2004-05 year; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226acd081ee60e45018ac56ce9af4091c4\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that the increase in incidents of P usage within prisons reflects the increase in incidents of P usage in the general community. That is a sad indictment of our society, and we must do everything we can to stamp out the use of P. I have every confidence that the new programmes we have in place\u2014the new ones to replace the ones cancelled yesterday\u2014will offer better drug and alcohol treatment for those inmates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224738af72c47d43ed95050c05a54b3df4\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can he give an assurance that none of the inmates of the 60-bed unit at Christchurch Prison who allegedly watched pornography in their cells at night were sex offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288cfd68859124819907814c4cfb5659d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of that and I cannot answer the question. I would be more than happy to provide that information to the member if he wishes to write to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2c50e953cb44e0b8d17f6c7e14fce0\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister continue to have confidence that there is no need for an independent and wide-ranging inquiry into prisons when even the Corrections Association, which represents prison workers, has said in recent days that it supports an inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225c38bf20bea49b6b9d5fcd5a74de991\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The Corrections Association of New Zealand has not said that it would support an inquiry at all. The member should check with the association to get clarification on that point. We are dealing with a very difficult environment. We are not running kindergartens. We deal with over 50,000 new sentences each year in this country and with over 9,000 new people going into prison. I think that the Department of Corrections does an excellent job in a very difficult environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002291a8b805125d4dffb288723188dbd7f9\u0022\u003EOrganics Industry\u2014Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e631056f945144fe80cdb83175094abd\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: What steps is the Government taking to increase the level of support available to the organics industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022232781d03da4421fb207eb75402cb1b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022232781d03da4421fb207eb75402cb1b5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is providing $1.5 million to Organics Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283f986192e964a45a82e52c07ddad02d\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government increased its level of support for the organics industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277f3e96845c8460fbd435d44fd7c2e0f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is a small but important sector that is growing, especially in the United States and European markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7eef82e1804750a57ba34cdd57e513\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: E aha ana ia hei whakatau i ng\u0101 \u0101wangawanga o t\u014Dna Hoa Minita kua k\u012B mai, ko te kaupapa \u0101-moana he wawata noa iho, \u0101, ko t\u014Dna mutunga hei whakak\u0101hore i ng\u0101 whakahiato whai rawa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[What steps will he be taking to address the concerns of his Associate Minister that the oceans policy was just a dream and would undermine economic development?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288ad60cdc02744a49dde4734ac93dbaf\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: When he approaches me on that, I will consider it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e24d3a9d6944a059a895b86833d226f\u0022\u003EElective Surgery\u2014Service Provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022100d40df02054653a76203cf18dff14e\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is he concerned about the Government\u2019s ability to meet New Zealanders\u2019 need for elective surgery; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022e61f919c39064ddcb8999f6c799c17e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e61f919c39064ddcb8999f6c799c17e7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E While I am delighted that the number of elective surgery procedures has increased by 12.6 percent on a case-weighted basis under this Government, and by more than that when our patient procedures are taken into account, there is always more to be done. This Government will never be complacent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95ce3313253495c959686aa3dfa94bd\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain from behind his statistical smokescreen why the Auckland District Health Board\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb182fade6d49aaac1511d80baf4b99\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Ironic expressions in questions are forbidden by the Standing Orders. That is about as clear a case of one as one can get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df19f760303c40ae849deac82234ebbe\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Would the member just ask the question, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f36ff018b954a98b1ec9287c2730c6a\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why the Auckland District Health Board performed 813 coronary bypass operations in 2002, yet 3 years later, in 2005, less than half that number\u2014394\u2014were performed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201f6a0f6452643f6bf2f7f0017a52213\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot, because the member did not give me any notice that that was what the question was to be about. So I am not able to answer him. If the member wants to hide behind a bland primary question, then his supplementary question will not get a good answer. What I need to do is to take a bit of a guess. All I can say is that around the country, and therefore, I assume, in Auckland as well, coronary artery bypass grafts are giving way to another form of surgery, an earlier intervention known as angioplasty, which reduces the need for coronary artery bypass grafts\u2014which I would have thought a doctor would know about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282671023714645b4a68aa08c461fb216\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: By the end of last year, how many more people had commitments for elective surgery compared with the year prior?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdaa24e2bd4642ceb8795e3b818b36d5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: In December 2005 there were 4,600 more people with commitments for elective surgery than there were in December 2004. That is 4,600 more people who were benefiting from this Government\u2019s work to create a fairer, more transparent, elective surgery system. The days when people were left on waiting lists with no guarantee of treatment, as was the case under a National Government, are gradually coming to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cb2bc3b52d541ffa25544de075fd5e6\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister accept that the number of angioplasties that he mentioned only rose from 930 to 1,080 during the period under discussion, which in no way explains the massive drop in open-heart operations; and will he also accept that 133 people who have been seen by an Auckland District Health Board heart surgeon are sicker than the threshold for treatment, yet have been given no commitment that they will actually receive an operation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b71ef60f064d16b571751f5272beb6\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Again I say to the member that because he does not give notice of what his deep, dark question is to be about, an informed answer cannot be given. So I shall have to make a guess at this one, as well. The member has done the classic thing: he has quoted the Auckland District Health Board without recognising that the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board and the Counties Manukau District Health Board have, over recent years, significantly increased their surgical procedures. Has he drawn that fact to the attention of the House? No, he has not. Why has he not done that? Because he prefers to obfuscate. That is not a good look.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2dfb32aaad0466c886465ed76902e0f\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister be so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac6a5b7a40444e079b113a80ce49e0cc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd23cd9b4a924ec7af3100094b9549f5\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister be so eye-poppingly angry if\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273cc5d07db7d480f847ba7e17071a3bc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry but the member already been warned. Just ask the question without a comical comment, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227caefd56f44b4c82a6418a4488e8f741\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister further explain why, as of January 2006, a further 140 sick people in the Auckland District Health Board area had been given a commitment to open-heart surgery, but had been on the waiting list for over 6 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cb591e8c0194325a0685129bb31432f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know, because the member did not indicate at the beginning of the question what the question was to be about, and that is where the matter rests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177bd3f2630542ea8c0bdf5c728988d4\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be embarrassed if patients on the heart surgery waiting list of Auckland District Health Board are advised that the district health board cannot give them any assurance of when their operation will take place, and that they should consider all options, including going private if they can afford it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246b475aefc114ef8a6ae38816b043b3f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, people who can afford to go private will consider that as an option, but the public health system in this country is dealing with more and more elective surgery cases each year than the year before\u2014more and more New Zealanders are getting their elective surgery. What is more, the number of New Zealanders who have crossed the treatment threshold but have not received their surgery has dropped by one-third in the past 18 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca78e8a78104df6a62ca67a10f58f27\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Firstly, let me observe that today we had a member of our caucus thrown out of the House as a result of that member\u2019s considerable frustration at the way in which a question was being answered. When you consider the answers that Mr Hodgson has given, I think you can get a sense of just how that frustration builds. This question dealing with elective surgery has been on the Order Paper since 11 o\u2019clock this morning. The Minister has repeatedly said: \u201COh, there\u2019s more elective surgery going on in the country than ever before.\u201D, but every time he is confronted with some appalling statistics showing that that is not the case he simply says: \u201CI don\u2019t know.\u201D and \u201CThe member should have asked a more specific question.\u201D I do not think that helps order in the House, and I do not think it brings this Parliament into great respect. I ask you to consider perhaps ruling that Ministers should answer questions, or, at least, address questions that are on the Order Paper. Saying \u201CI don\u2019t know.\u201D would stand as an answer, but to go on and give some speech of qualification behind why the Minister does not know that seems to be a condemnation of the person asking the question is just unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8518f0ca03a4edcb36fd4b6940fd190\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It has been a long tradition in this House that\u2014and I can remember my predecessor, the Hon Fraser Colman, using the phrase\u2014if a member wants a specific answer to a detailed question, the member either asks a written question or gives proper notice of the nature of the specific detail required. That has been the history of the House, and I think new members have to understand that if they do want details that drive right down to the number of open-heart surgeries in a particular hospital, they have to be more specific in the original question, or give notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8737210b7f4cd69142a111e2fa2a21\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the points of order, and I thank the members. I am not clear exactly what the point of order was, because the Minister did address the question, and that is a common way to address questions of that nature\u2014to ask for notice to be given of the specifics. If members want the rules changed, then they should take that matter to the Standing Orders Committee and we can review those rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff261a1137e44aa89e2862026101cd9\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Given the National Party\u2019s new-found interest in cardiothoracic issues, I seek the leave\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a3917fa3dd4b9f83786a8f75d5df26\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please get to his point of order without interpolating. Would Mr Mark just state his point of order, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266652841414d4ca6a6f29fa04ff8de16\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a series of newspaper articles from 1997 to 1998\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208eeb0242ec948c68b38c09d8b3563a1\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2148ac6e82e4ba48916ea1d60a69894\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but members are on notice that when points of orders and questions are being given, they are to be without interruption. Would members please respect the member asking the question, and would the member please put his point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd128b95c614281b72d133b94cae10f\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a series of newspaper articles from 1997 to 1998, when New Zealand First was seeking to have a cardiothoracic unit built in Christchurch, and it was consistently fought and opposed by Gerry Brownlee, David Carter, and Bill English. Fortunately, we won and it was established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a6b0646e4574b94b4c8db5ad23093e6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b882db07fe364bd49fc8e1adf851a1a8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a series of newspaper articles from the same period of time that show that the money that had been previously allocated for a heart unit in Christchurch was snaffled by New Zealand First to fund Aotearoa Television.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270a5cc1fbdf541afa2b6712a557b431e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a95d7250bb7c4abd88e2b46fafca39d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table countless press statements in respect of Aotearoa Television, which was the brainchild of one Maurice Williamson, the then Minister of Broadcasting. Those are the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022051bca636abb4405a5fa37b9a748d361\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a47b70350a64c73916d496f062db98a\u0022\u003EPacific Island Affairs, Ministry\u2014Policy Effectiveness\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236277187a0ad44d9b900632fc774e0d6\u0022\u003ETAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Labour\u2014Mangere)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Pacific Island Affairs: What are the main conclusions of the latest Ministry of Pacific Island Affairs report on the effectiveness for Pacific Island people of Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u002234de568be8f044eb8b7589ffd75b8c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234de568be8f044eb8b7589ffd75b8c4f\u0022\u003EHon LUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Acting Minister of Pacific Island Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E: The report shows that, as a result of initiatives, including the Work and Income Pacific Wave strategy, there has been a 53 percent decrease in Pacific people receiving the unemployment benefit in Auckland in the last 2 years to June 2005. The report also shows that 140 Pacific people received TeachNZ early childhood education scholarships in 2004\u2014an increase from 37 in 2000\u2014which has strengthened Pacific participation in early childhood education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207d8e9f29dbd45f5a57c11ca153aad61\u0022\u003ETaito Phillip Field\u003C/span\u003E: What does the report say about Pacific economic development, and what is the Government doing to further strengthen Pacific economic development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225babc2553cd44414a72ed7aa085a7247\u0022\u003EHon LUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN\u003C/span\u003E: Government has an increased focus on economic prosperity for Pacific people through initiatives such as the Pacific Economic Action Plan. More Pacific people than ever before are in jobs, but we realise there is still more work to be done. It is about turning the one-day stalls at the Pasifika festival into ongoing sustainable economic businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d255df3514f4ddca780a17ab8569462\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Did the report examine any allegations of misuse of the Samoan or Pacific Island immigration quota system and the effects of such misuse on Pacific Island people and the integrity of the Government\u2019s Pacific quota policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d0bf5560c21480f91bdd0063ed3f0fa\u0022\u003EHon LUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca5e5c15db174efbbd370df00a393563\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022963d527ae7804177be7d311c55ac6d9b\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002215d353829a4648da94d888ec26960a21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215d353829a4648da94d888ec26960a21\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. Following the resignation yesterday of the honourable David Parker, this House had a debate about the matter. There were two speeches that, I think, were reasonably well quoted by various media commentators: one from Jeanette Fitzsimons, and the other, in part at least, from the Rt Hon Winston Peters. They raised the question about whether this House was headed in a direction that was, to say the least, unsavoury and worrying\u2014whether individual members could expect to have their backgrounds raked over, whether they could expect all sorts of investigations into their past, and other such matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think those speeches missed the point slightly. It is not muckraking to ask the Prime Minister how $446,000 of her leader\u2019s budget ended up in the Labour Party campaign. It is not muckraking to ask the Prime Minister how five policemen and a civilian driver could end up in the dock for speeding while she did not notice that the speed of the car was 160 kilometres. It is not muckraking to suggest that misleading Parliament is a serious matter, and it is not muckraking to ask how the falsification of a document came about. Those matters have been before this House, and they are not matters that should be swept aside easily. I say to this House, particularly to the Labour members who have had so much to say about those matters, that if they want respect they will have to start showing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think that anyone who looked at today\u2019s question time would see why the House has deteriorated in the way that it has. If one looked at the way in which Government Ministers dealt with question time today, it was clear there was no desire on the part of Ministers to give serious answers to serious issues when the rightful role of the Opposition to scrutinise their portfolios was exercised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister today refused to say what she thought of the Whangamata decision. She hid behind a pathetic answer, saying that the Minister of Conservation had followed a process. That virtually pushes the Minister out and hangs him out to dry. There was no group responsibility whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDr Nick Smith decided he should ask Dover Samuels what he had meant when he said he thought the Minister of Conservation had acted inappropriately. We know that Dover Samuels had a heck of a lot more to say, and that most of that was said inside the Labour caucus room, but publicly he had questioned the right of the Minister to make that decision. And it is our role to ask why he did that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWhy is it that a Minister can make an important public decision, only to be questioned by another Minister? What we got was this idea that because the first Minister had a different coloured hat on at the time he made those statements, he is exempt from being questioned about that matter in the House. That is an utter nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIs there a point when a Minister walks out of this place during the day or the night and is no longer considered a Minister? I do not think Lianne Dalziel would agree with that. I do not think Ruth Dyson would agree with that. I do not think poor old Dover himself, if he really asked himself the question, would agree with that. So what happens is a level of frustration brews up inside the Opposition and, of course, we have a degree of disorder occurring in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EA question was asked of the Hon Harry Duynhoven. It was a simple question: were there any bids for the latest round of gasfields that were on offer? The answer that came back, in any form one likes, was to get him out of answering simply that, no, no one was interested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFor how long will we have people writing articles about the way in which the House appears, and the business the House is supposedly preoccupied with, while ignoring the fact that Ministers are not exercising their responsibility to be accountable to the public of this country? It does take us away from considering the big issues that face this nation. The looming energy crisis is right on our back-doorstep, and we have a Minister of Energy who does not want to know about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a80666b60f834dfcb04cf87213b166ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a80666b60f834dfcb04cf87213b166ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E National started this year by saying that the economy was going to be the issue. I have sat here in Parliament for 2 days this week and there has not been a single question to me as the Minister in charge of the economy. Where are all the big, brave candidates for the leadership of the National Party taking on the Minister of Finance? They have all given up. Instead, all they can do is complain about which hat Dover Samuels wears. I will tell them. The hat he wears is called an Akubra. It is one of those leather, brown things that one can get in Australia. He wears it frequently, but we will not go into how he sometimes uses it. The fact is that it is called an Akubra. The other complaint was that Harry Duynhoven\u2019s answers were too long. I could have made that complaint, as well, as the Leader of the House, but we will pass over that matter at this particular time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI point out that 1 April this year is a major date. It is a red-letter date for well over 1 million New Zealanders\u2014parents, children, business people, students, graduates, and superannuitants. That is the real political story. It is the real news that ordinary Kiwis actually care about. Instead, of course, we have the leader of the ACT party swimming around in the sewer and National members waiting by the outfall for their faithful dog to bring them something to chew on. Well, I do not share the same taste as the National Party, in politics or in anything else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESo let us come to 1 April. What happens on 1 April affects every superannuitant in the country. It also affects three-quarters of all families with children, the great majority of students and recent graduates, and the great majority of New Zealand businesses. And it is good news for the economy. First, it will put more spending power into the economy just as it is starting to slow down as part of the cycle. On 1 April we will see families with more spending power. That upsets John Key, because he wants to have all the spending power in his own palatial home. It is not, of course, the home he registered on the electoral roll. Oh, no, he did not register his own home for that purpose, but I will come back to that a bit later. Secondly, when we come to the business changes they will be great for business investment. They will lead to more business investment and more growth within the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhat happens with Working for Families? Under that package 350,000 families qualify for targeted tax relief. Many families with two or three kids will be over $100 a week better of on 1 April this year. A billion dollars is going into support for New Zealand families with kids, and I thank New Zealand First, United Future, and the Greens for supporting those measures. I cannot remember whether the M\u0101ori Party was split on that issue. I think it did vote for the last round of those particular matters. We will see a new in-work payment that will significantly increase the margin in terms of going into employment compared with being on a benefit, which has been attacked by National members at every point. That is because they prefer the poor to be beneficiaries rather than being in work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAnd from 1 April we will remove the interest on student loans for those who stay in New Zealand. What that means is a much faster pay down of individual student loans. It means that all the payment goes towards paying off the principal, not merely towards servicing the interest on the debt. That will remove a burden for many young people, and as they move into adulthood they can begin to save, have a home, and have a family, and not worry about the length of time the student debt incubus will hang over them. Will it cost as much as National has said? No, it will not. I can tell National members that they will be even more disappointed than previously when they get the updated reports on the costing of that particular policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe annual adjustment to superannuation this year does take people to 66 percent of the average wage, but because of the agreement with New Zealand First that relativity will be maintained next year and the year after. So superannuitants will be better off while we work on the gold card. Indeed, of course, many superannuitants are better off because of higher interest rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ea7fd57e0d64ef8b2eb24ffc3dd3b0f\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0060bbb355346058f948058f43ee4e2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00222f668e999c504306aabf893faf9d5c66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f668e999c504306aabf893faf9d5c66\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. A few moments ago during this debate the Hon Taito Phillip Field crossed this Chamber and threatened me that I should accompany him outside. To use his exact words, he said that if I had any balls I would go outside and repeat my question. I want to repeat to you, Madam Assistant Speaker, the question I raised in the House this afternoon. It was this: \u201CDid the report examine any allegations of misuse of the Samoan or Pacific Island immigration quota system and the effects of such misuse on Pacific Island people and the integrity of the Government\u2019s Pacific quota policy?\u201D. At no stage did I mention the Hon Taito Phillip Field at all. I take objection, and I think it is a very serious issue when members of this Parliament are threatened in this Chamber by members who seem to have some problem. I think you should take action on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c5a875d37ed405ca3fb190c4ecd6621\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to respond. Did he say that to the member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5bd364853c64e3abaa1d4a9fd3afa45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5bd364853c64e3abaa1d4a9fd3afa45\u0022\u003ETAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Labour\u2014Mangere):\u003C/span\u003E Not in those words. Not in the words that Dr Lockwood Smith used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E What I did say\u2014referring to his questioning not only today but yesterday, with his insinuations in relation to my integrity\u2014was that I would invite him to repeat them outside the House, so that I could challenge the comments that he is making, inferring on my integrity by his line of questioning. I said to him: \u201CSay that outside the House.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c29d9d33cf491aa5c40b0e58f99a07\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have asked the member whether he said it to the honourable member. It is certainly an allegation of disorder. If a member has acted in a disorderly manner or threateningly in any way, he should withdraw and apologise. So I ask the member whether he acted in a way that was disorderly and threatening, because, if he did, he must withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b1bf3b74c64657baec6038484d45b1\u0022\u003ETAITO PHILLIP FIELD\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, Madam Assistant Speaker. But I would like to make it clear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c63c7fbedf064005be235fa6c9428ea6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No. You must be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cd4252d3f0946498e4ad686faa4c055\u0022\u003ETAITO PHILLIP FIELD\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I invite Dr Lockwood Smith, if he has any question in relation to my integrity, to say it outside the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d85758663284c5c9aa13c820d45c478\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I warn the member that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269910c3d7e8d41c58d58a973209c427c\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229039f5fc6033479894b3ad82665730c0\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000343\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00223998264d845b49f1a203f4e1e8b54531\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223998264d845b49f1a203f4e1e8b54531\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Members will know that I do not normally participate in the general debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5957cf2b84e474494f87d3b8856dc02\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Winston speaks in them all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022401d594cabf8407fb91a90ea59425960\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about me. Quite frankly, most of the contributions to it demean the dignity of the House, particularly those of the two old parties who simply spend all their time hurling abuse at each other. But, from time to time, the general debate offers the opportunity to raise matters of genuine concern. I also say at this point of time that my contribution would be somewhat easier to make if I did not hear \u201CAdvance Australia Fair\u201D being played every time I turn on the TV these days, and a whole lot easier if a 17-year-old Australian had not stepped up to the circle and denied Beatrice Faumuina a medal last night. I will put those feelings aside, because Dover Samuels may wear an Akubra, but I am going in to bat for the Aussies in this speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe issue is the deplorable manner in which a New Zealand tertiary institution has treated students in Australia and the Australian Council for Private Education and Training. For the benefit of the listeners, I will explain the issue. In 2001 The Open Polytechnic of New Zealand bought the Australian company Stotts Correspondence College and its subsidiary, Stotts Correspondence College New Zealand. The Australian operation was losing money at the time, and has continued to do so ever since. The New Zealand operation continues to make a profit. Indeed, the Australian operation has lost $2.5 million in the last 5 years. Therefore, it is completely understandable that it was placed into what the Aussies call voluntary administration in December last year, owing $3 million, which included $2.2 million to its New Zealand Government - owned parent, The Open Polytechnic. A meeting of creditors was called, and the company was put into liquidation. So far, so good. It might have been an unwise commercial decision, but those are made every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut when an education institution such as that goes belly up, the problem is that there are students enrolled in courses, and there is a moral obligation and a cost associated with ensuring that those students are enrolled in programmes with other providers. To the deep discredit of The Open Polytechnic, it simply washed its hands of that particular problem. It just walked away. And that is not good enough. Our national reputation is at stake in this particular case, because however much we throw off at the Aussies, however much we may cringe at their level of sporting success, and however fierce our sporting competition with them may be, they are our closest mates. We have very positive and constructive relationships in education with our Australian counterparts, over a wide sphere. We have the trans-Tasman mutual recognition of qualifications. Our Ministers attend their ministerial forum of education Ministers. We have even flogged the Queensland approach to curriculum delivery in the revamp of our national curriculum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThis issue has to be seen in the same way as if an Australian institution had set up in New Zealand and then cut and run, leaving 600 to 800 students hanging out to dry. It is not an issue that is immaterial in trans-Tasman relations, as Michael Cullen said. The replacement courses found for the students were all organised by the Australian Council for Private Education and Training. The Open Polytechnic dumped the students, cut its losses and ran, and the Australian Council for Private Education and Training picked up the pieces\u2014and at a cost. The Australian Council for Private Education and Training does not want The Open Polytechnic to cover the tuition costs\u2014that is not at issue. It does not even want The Open Polytechnic to cover the full cost of relocation. It is asking The Open Polytechnic to front up with half the cost of relocation, which is a total of A$25,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI say to Paul Grimwood, Chief Executive Officer of The Open Polytechnic, and to The Open Polytechnic council: \u201CDo the right thing.\u201D This situation is damaging the reputation of all of our providers in Australia and elsewhere, and it is damaging to our image as a nation. It makes us look small-minded, petty, mean, and penny-pinching, worried only about the bottom line but not about the students for whom we have accepted educational responsibility. There may not be a legal responsibility, but there sure as heck is a moral and an ethical one. The problem is that the image that one of our institutions portrays across the ditch is reflected upon all our institutions, and indeed on New Zealand as a nation. So I say again to Paul Grimwood and to The Open Polytechnic council that they should go and seek the A$25,000, so that the matter can be put to rest and New Zealand\u2019s educational reputation can be re-established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022fca4996547604a55ae33cba88da3c4d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fca4996547604a55ae33cba88da3c4d2\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I want to reiterate some of the points made by Dr Cullen so that my learned M\u0101ori colleague from Auckland can understand the good work that is happening in M\u0101oridom. On 1 April\u2014and there will be only one lot of foolish people around on 1 April, and they will be the Opposition\u2014we will see in Working for Families, targeted tax credits to Kiwi families to help them raise their children; in student loans, the scrapping of interest on student loans for those people who live in New Zealand; in increases to the rate of superannuation, the taking care of the old people; in business tax changes, the biggest cuts to business taxes since the late 1980s, which are in the area needed by the people, especially M\u0101ori and Pacific Islands people; and in accident compensation, the very important Accident Compensation Corporation levy discount programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWorking for Families is quite simple. About three in every four New Zealand families with dependent children will be entitled to family assistance tax credits from 1 April this year. That is the most effective way to target and support M\u0101ori families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that M\u0101ori are a unique people. The contributions that M\u0101ori make to New Zealand pervade this country. In the last year M\u0101ori actors were amongst those who received nominations for the Academy Awards\u2014great actors\u2014a M\u0101ori won the US Open golf tournament, M\u0101ori achieved key positions in the commercial sector in New Zealand and Australia, and beat the British Lions solidly in the rugby. So we do not have to pontificate about the heaviness of the past; we are really living in contemporary times and are quite clear and sure on where we want to go. M\u0101ori culture reinforces the dynamic identity of Aotearoa New Zealand in the global society, and our team over there in the Commonwealth Games is doing the haka so well\u2014they need a few more medals\u2014that it has upset the Aussies. But the distinct difference in this country is those M\u0101ori families, and Working for Families will ensure that they accelerate and keep up with the opportunities that are around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98bc2acab1d47eeb65647966350b930\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: According to the New Zealand Herald, they are moving to Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267aa4e67c75e42d4ab703ba0c1558626\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: And that is symptomatic of M\u0101ori moving to Australia, as John Key moved to London in England. He learnt a lot about the money market and interest rates, and then he came home. He went away and then he came home. So it is all right for the rich and the well-off, but not for people who are determined to find out what it is like to go overseas for the first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI will tell the member about the last major transition in this country. It was in 1950 to 1960, when 86 percent of M\u0101ori people lived close to their marae\u2014they lived in the villages, as it was perceived by some bureaucrats at the time\u2014and they transferred and came to Wainui\u014Dmata and to \u014Ctara. That was because the global market at the time required manpower that they never had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWe are right at the cusp of it now, I tell Mr Key and Bill English. They should remember that. We have a growing asset base that the members and their mates should be interested in. We have falling unemployment rates, though our climb in the employment area is four times slower than non-M\u0101ori\u2014than that member\u2019s people. On 1 April we will replace the child tax credit with the in-work payment. This is not about just taking people off the benefit\u2014dependency. It is about helping those who are in work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee487379fc3485688072dc9d4a83f99\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s putting thousands more on a benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226feca3ccf77b4b148e94d7f48b41c380\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Ninety-two percent of those M\u0101ori who want to work are in work. The member should wake up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe family tax credit will increase from $15,000 to $17,680. That is a real increase for families who need that support. At last year\u2019s Hui Taumata it was made clear that the path for M\u0101ori from dependency to development is through education, employment, and enterprise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn this changing time, a dramatic thing is happening in M\u0101ori families. If we understand colonisation and if we understand the venturing of new peoples to this land, like what is happening now with Asian people, we know that a familiar thing happens. The settler society ensures that there is the labour force to provide things like the roadways and the telegraph poles. The constraint on that is that they do not get into the upper levels of business, industry, or education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EContemporary times can be hugely stressful for wh\u0101nau. They are trying to earn a living, gain more skills and new careers, and raise a family\u2014they are no different from other people. But the Working for Families package is not about welfare. It is targeted tax relief, and it is fair targeted tax relief. It is not for rich mates who get discounts without doing too much hard work. This is a great time for M\u0101ori. The Working for Families package is excellent, even in Southland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022731de14fda0e427c906e29043da1a385\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022731de14fda0e427c906e29043da1a385\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E That member may be pleased with his efforts on behalf of M\u0101ori, but he must have a sick feeling in his stomach when he sees the Cabinet of the Labour Government rotting around him. Dr Cullen told us about the 1 April lolly scramble, and he is right\u2014much money will be pumped into the pockets of middle New Zealand. It is unfortunate that they will not get what they could have had, though, which is 85 percent of New Zealanders on a tax rate of 19c in the dollar and an economy taking a step up instead of slowing to a crawl. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn the last couple of days a number of people in the media, and, to some extent, in the public, have started to talk about the standards in politics dropping. I believe they are wrong. I believe that the standards of accountability and scrutiny in this House are as they have always been, and that is tough but fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party members have done their best to explain away their own problems as being some kind of change in the National Party\u2019s tactics as an Opposition, but that is absolutely not the case. I say to this House that National members were not sitting in the front seat when Ruth Dyson was caught drink-driving. We were not at the table drinking wine when John Tamihere gave his famous interview and revealed what it is really like in the Labour caucus. No National Party MP posted the false returns that David Parker made to the Companies Office. No National MP was holding the painting when Helen Clark signed it. It was not a National MP who was sitting in the seat beside Helen Clark when she was speeding through the townships of the South Island. No National MP held the microphone while Lianne Dalziel lied to the media about her role as a Minister in the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe were here when David Benson-Pope misled Parliament, and is it not a shame that a reasonably promising member of Parliament lost his job yesterday because of something he did that people will regard as being potentially against the law, certainly ill-judged, and that David Benson-Pope, of all people, gets to keep his job? The Labour Party members know that David Parker had to go because David Benson-Pope stayed. It would have been much better for the country if the opposite had happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt is not a change in the Opposition that has brought about this avalanche of problems and this list of miscreant Ministers. What has brought it about are the low standards of the Labour Party. Really, there is only one difference between the leader of the Labour Party and those Ministers who have all been dealt with, with justification, and that is that they are not as good at it as she is. She is the master of the half-truth. She has set the environment in which Ministers, some of whom are otherwise competent and capable people, take risks with the truth, do not tell it, avoid it, and, when they get caught, always act as if it is not their responsibility\u2014and who does that best of all and always gets away with it? It is Helen Clark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo those people in the media who are starting to feel morally superior about what is going on in politics in New Zealand ought to put that superiority aside. It is absolutely vital that a rotting Government is held to account, and the National Party will continue to hold Labour members to account. It will mean scrutinising the decisions and the paperwork of Ministers, it will mean questioning them when they do not tell the truth, it will mean pulling them up when they mislead Parliament, and it will mean making sure that they take personal responsibility for the things they do that break the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002216474d984d96476a8f17359232d0eedc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216474d984d96476a8f17359232d0eedc\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As a Minister and member of Parliament who has always taken responsibility for my own actions, both good and bad, I reject and resent the whingeing, whining, gutter-scraping behaviour of that member who has just resumed his seat. I remember that when I first came into Parliament in 1993, the brat pack of Bill English, Tony Ryall, Roger Sowry, and Nick Smith were regarded as young and energetic, and frankly they added a bit of flair to this House, so desperately needed from the National Party. Now look at them: Roger Sowry has gone, so I have no comment to make about his contribution, and the remaining three members are tired, bitter, twisted, and nasty contributors in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236bcd7af916a4494b6d66f923fd8563e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Stop talking about yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25bc148e0eb48fa8562b640f385aad2\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr English that I have never been nasty, and I am certainly not bitter. I can only assume that the resentment those members exude in the House is because the born-to-rule brat pack does not like being in Opposition for another 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe first day of April 2006 will be a very good day for lots of New Zealanders. I want to start, though, by highlighting one particular New Zealander who will have a particularly good day on 1 April 2006, and that is my mother, who turns 80 on that day. She will have a good day, but so will three out of four families who are in the paid workforce and have dependent children. Yet again they will receive a significant boost to their income, and that is because of our Working for Families package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EStudents and graduates who have been burdened by the interest accumulating on their student loans will know that from 1 April that interest is gone as long as they are in New Zealand. What a great incentive for young students and graduates to stay in New Zealand and pay off their student loans\u2014which they will be able to do more quickly than in the past\u2014or to come home again. We will see that student debt go down, and that is a fantastic contribution to the skills shortage we are facing in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESuperannuitants will have a significant increase, longer term, in their standard of living. That will occur not only because of the adjustment on 1 April taking the rate for a married couple to 66 percent of the average ordinary-time weekly wage but also because of the agreement New Zealand First has with the Labour-Progressive Government, which means that that level\u2014the relativity at 66 percent\u2014will be maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E Also on 1 April, we will see the biggest changes to business taxes since the late 1980s, and that is a well-deserved initiative from our Government. But the final point I make in terms of the announcements that will come into force on 1 April is about the accident compensation levy discount programme. We have had this scheme in place for larger employers for a long time. I am really pleased that this initiative, which rewards good practice for the self-employed and small businesses, is now being rolled out. We are targeting the six highest risk industries\u2014the ones that have the most injuries: agriculture, forestry, construction, road freight transport, motor trades, and inshore fishing industries, to start with. If those industry players\u2014with small businesses and the self-employed\u2014can demonstrate they have a serious commitment to health and safety in their workplace, they will get a 10 percent reduction in their accident compensation bill, and I know they will really welcome that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EFrom 1 April those businesses will be able to apply to join the programme. and I really encourage all small businesses to do that. Not only will it be good for their pockets, in that they will have a 10 percent reduction in their bill every year, but also\u2014and I am sure everyone in this House will agree\u2014it will be better for every New Zealand worker if we can improve health and safety standards within the workplace. Too many of our workers go to work in the morning and do not come home at night, so if we can do anything to reduce the fatalities and the number of serious injuries that happen in our workplace, I am sure this will get very strong support from all parties in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe initiatives I discussed at the start of my contribution are the result of a lot of hard work by the Labour and Progressive parties over the last few years. We are doing that work because we are committed to having a better future for all New Zealanders. We want a country where we have a strong economy, where our families can enjoy better opportunities and are secure, and where we can have pride in the unique identity of our nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002259ce6481c4b84c34aef0c4e5a617610b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259ce6481c4b84c34aef0c4e5a617610b\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E Today I do not intend to canvass the behaviour or the actions of the two Ministers who have been in the centre of the news media swirl over recent weeks. Others, in the fullness of time, will make their own judgments on those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat I do want to raise this afternoon is the judgment of the Prime Minister over the last 6 to 8 weeks. I have been pondering that at some length, because I find it extraordinarily curious. I find the behaviour of the Prime Minister and her decision making particularly interesting from an objective point of view. Why would the Prime Minister spend valuable political capital on Mr Benson-Pope, leaving herself out of valuable political capital for Mr Parker? Although I do not excuse in any way the original mistakes of Mr Parker, at least in my view he had the dignity to act in an appropriate and responsible way. As a student of political science prior to becoming a member of Parliament, I guess it was, in a difficult way, reassuring to hear a Minister at least refer to the doctrine of individual ministerial responsibility at the point he handed in his resignation, and refer to his respect for the Westminster system. But it was curious from my point of view that although huge political capital from the Prime Minister\u2014and from the front bench, when one thinks back to the nature of supplementary questions and the like from the start of this year\u2014was afforded Mr Benson-Pope, none of that protection or political capital remained to give Mr Parker in any way the type of buffer he must have sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe curious thing about that is that both Mr Benson-Pope and Mr Parker were well recognised as prot\u00E9g\u00E9s of the Prime Minister\u2014people she regarded as having bright futures in this Parliament. That was not just the talk in this building; it was the talk around Wellington. I find it curious that one was given the full strength of support of the Prime Minister\u2019s office and the front bench of Cabinet, and one was not. I wonder at what point the decision makers came to the view that that capital was to be invested in one member but not in the other. I suspect it was because that political capital had been well and truly exhausted on the first member, and the Prime Minister was simply left without the political capital to deal in any way other than in the honourable way\u2014in my opinion\u2014that Mr Parker reacted, seemingly without those same support networks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI guess it begs the question now of who would want to be a prot\u00E9g\u00E9 of Helen Clark\u2019s, because those prot\u00E9g\u00E9s are now in a very difficult position. There will be members opposite thinking they would rather be in Phil Goff\u2019s camp. I think it will be particularly interesting over the coming weeks to see how the Labour caucus repairs itself in relation to its respect for its leadership structures. I will use my usual litmus test to decide how that is going, because I will watch how David Cunliffe moves over the next month and a half as I decide exactly where the power balances are shifting inside the Labour caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIn the meantime there are serious issues in the law and order area that I will continue to scrutinise while that sideshow carries on, and while others make decisions about issues relating to the future of those two members. There are also issues in the corrections area that continue to burn considerably. Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s constant refusal to face up to the fact that Parliament and the public of New Zealand should have an opportunity to scrutinise the Department of Corrections is almost beyond comprehension when one tallies up the list of awful incidents that have occurred in his department over recent months. Not only has there been a massive budget blowout of nearly $890 million\u2014double the original $400 million\u2014but Damien O\u2019Connor has still not told us that that amount is capped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022f33e9ee5440a4921859673badae03700\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f33e9ee5440a4921859673badae03700\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to have the opportunity today to talk about Labour once again delivering on its promise to people in New Zealand. The Working for Families package is delivering targeted tax credits to Kiwi families to help them raise their children. Almost three in every four New Zealand families with dependent children will be entitled to family assistance tax credits from 1 April this year. Not many New Zealanders will think that is anything but fantastic news. It is just plain dishonest for anyone, including the Opposition, to suggest that those families are getting welfare or becoming beneficiaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ENinety-nine percent of that $1.6 billion package is being delivered to families by way of the tax system. Families will access their tax credits from the Inland Revenue Department, which will calculate and pay their entitlements. At the last election Labour put it to the electorate that by targeting families through the tax system we have the best chance of helping Kiwis create strong families and healthy, confident young people. The electorate agreed and, on 1 April, Labour will deliver in spades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ELet us take the example of a couple earning the average income for families with dependent children, because that gives a pretty good idea of the amount of tax relief the average New Zealand working family can expect from 1 April. A family with two teenaged children aged 11 and 16 that earns $67,000 a year and pays $350 a week on its mortgage will, from 1 April 2006, get an extra $68 a week in the hand from the family assistance tax credits. From 1 April 2007 that amount will increase by another $20 a week, to $88 a week, when family assistance increases again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe good news gets even better. Almost all families with children that earn less than $70,000 a year will become eligible for family tax relief. Many families earning between $70,000 and $100,000 will also be eligible. Around 85,000 more families will become eligible from 1 April this year as a result of this tax relief package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIn total, 350,000 families will be receiving family tax relief in 2006\u2014because Labour wants all New Zealanders to have a stake in the future. Working for Families is the most effective way to target and support our New Zealand families and their children. It also reflects a common approach internationally. Supporting families and children via tax credits is a widespread approach in the OECD. Australia\u2019s annual spend on family tax credits is $15 billion, and 82 percent of Australian families with dependent children are supported in this way by their Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ENew Zealand tax credit income limits are now comparable with Australia\u2019s. Families are eligible for the family tax benefit, up to a combined family income of around A$90,000, depending on the age and the number of children. For a New Zealand family with three children, that amount is up to $93,760. The UK also operates a system of tax credits that is very similar to ours. It provides assistance to help beneficiaries and working families with the cost of raising children through a child tax credit, which is similar to New Zealand\u2019s family support. Around 85 percent of families are eligible for that assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EWe can contrast this system with across-the-board tax cuts, which deliver the highest gains to people with the highest incomes, regardless of whether they have children. Tellingly, it is lower and middle income families who get much, much less from a tax cut. Targeting through the tax system is fairer and more cost-effective than having general tax cuts, because it ensures that families with the greatest need get the most support. That is why the Government has invested in a 3-year communications campaign to make very sure that newly eligible families know their eligibility and know how to pick up their entitlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIn addition to helping working families through targeted tax credits, the Government is also improving the incentive for families to find work and to stay in work. Under Working for Families a new in-work payment will be introduced to provide more support to working families with dependent children, to make work pay, and to make it more worthwhile for unemployed families to move into work. This means that, rather than making more New Zealanders beneficiaries, the Working for Families package has, by design, set out to contribute to fewer families being reliant on community support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ETo work out how much tax relief a person is entitled to is easy, and people can check by visiting the calculator on the Inland Revenue Department website or simply by ringing 0800 257 477. The Working for Families package is delivering targeted tax credits to Kiwi families in order to help them raise their children. Labour, once again, has delivered on its promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00229f010555b6aa45b1aa94f8f8677818df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f010555b6aa45b1aa94f8f8677818df\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E Kia whakawhenua au i ahau! Hi au\u0113, h\u012B! Ko Aotearoa e ngunguru nei! Au, au, au\u0113 h\u0101! Let me become one with the land! This is our land that rumbles! It is my time! It is my moment! Those are the concepts of nationhood, of passion, and of strength that create a distinctive international presence for New Zealand. Yet, when the new haka of the All Blacks was first performed at Carisbrook last August, it was greeted with insults and attacks from the media and the English public alike. A throat-cutting gesture at the end of the haka was interpreted as implying the slaughter of opponents, which was reason for particular anxiety. Indeed, the editorial in The Times had this to say: \u201Cif a crazed thug drew a finger threateningly across his throat while screaming into someone\u2019s face on a high street, police would have good grounds for arrest.\u201D Yet if this editor had talked to haka expert Derek Lardelli, he or she would have heard that playing rugby at that level and with that intensity is the cutting edge of sport. The across-the-throat action symbolises the intensity of first-class rugby and the consequences of defeat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EYesterday, Aotearoa celebrated Race Relations Day. The theme for this year is t\u016Brangawaewae\u2014our home. What better way to celebrate t\u016Brangawaewae than by celebrating and seeking to understand the haka as a national icon\u2014the source of pride and belonging. The significance of the haka overseas, with comments made about it being past its use-by date, is a theme that the House needs to give some consideration to. Is it time to replace our haka with something akin to the national chant across the Tasman: \u201CAussie Aussie Aussie! Oi oi oi!\u201D? A haka was first performed in an overseas representative rugby match by our native team in 1888. Then, in 1908, an Aboriginal war cry was performed by the Wallabies. The Springboks came up with a Zulu war dance in 1928, the Fijians chanted the Cibi, Tonga performed the Kailao, and Manu Samoa performed its own Le Manu Samoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EEmbracing the uniqueness of the indigenous identity is not just the domain of sports teams. I know many New Zealanders who, when travelling overseas, have burst into a haka or sung \u201CPokare Kare Ana\u201D at the top of their lungs, claiming that Aotearoa New Zealand is their home, and why not? Indeed, Tourism New Zealand has identified M\u0101ori culture and branding to sell New Zealand\u2019s uniqueness. We should be proud of the haka, we should understand it, and we should celebrate it as an art form of intense passion for Aotearoa New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EHenare Teowai, an acknowledged master of the art of haka, was asked on his deathbed what was the art of performing haka. He replied: \u201CKia k\u014Drero te katoa o te tinana\u2014the whole body should speak.\u201D Last Saturday night the 12 spontaneous haka that the Sevens rugby team erupted into during their victory lap displayed their expression of honour and pride to its fullest extent. In fact, the team did so to such an extent that the captain, Tafai Ioasa, lost his voice and Tamati Ellison broke his medal\u2014haka can be a dangerous sport! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESince the age of 7 I have been doing haka and competing in the national clubs\u2014it is my love. We must cherish our haka as a traditional M\u0101ori performance art form that is unique to New Zealand and, perhaps in doing so, we may understand the richer stories beyond the haka, because every haka expresses a universal truth. Our haka tells us who we are, what we thought of this action or that action of the Government, how we honour our Commonwealth Games swimmers, how we celebrate marriage, how we acknowledge our ancestors, how we welcome people to the marae, and how we pay our final respects to those who have passed beyond the veil. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI was so enthused to see the P\u0101keh\u0101 boys of our national swimming team clearly owning the haka as they celebrated and honoured with great joy the efforts of our swimming team in Melbourne. Haka is a point of identity and a point of difference for M\u0101ori and, on the world stage, for all New Zealanders. It has such rich potential, as a form of cultural expression, to honour, to welcome, to farewell, to acknowledge, to celebrate, to mourn, and to be. The haka may well be part of our formula towards building a united nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u002201708f50e08c4894953f44f3a9e3f3a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201708f50e08c4894953f44f3a9e3f3a3\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E First, I acknowledge the speaker before me, Dr Pita Sharples. I have felt the chills go down my spine many times while standing on a marae, in a meeting, or something like that. But to watch telly the other night and see those skinny white boys doing their thing made me feel every chill, as well. I felt they did us really proud, and it is one of those moments when one feels proud to be a Kiwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI have been here for 6 months. I came into Parliament on 17 September, so, obviously, I am a new MP. I did not expect to agree with how Labour was running the country. I stood for Parliament because I did not agree with the Government\u2019s agenda and with a lot of things that were happening. I felt that it was not listening to the people, that \u201CBig Sister\u201D knew what was best, and that there was not a real debate going on in society about what sort of society we were going to be. Instead, things were getting pushed through, and decisions were being made at that level. That is what drove me to stand for Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThings have changed in this term. It is not so much that I do not agree with the Government\u2019s agenda; I have discovered in my short term that I do not feel that it has one. I am struggling to see, quite simply, what this Government is doing, and what it intends to do in this term. It is tired, and there is a real lack of vision. Well, maybe the Government does have an agenda, actually, and maybe that agenda is to do as little as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227574157e10247689d76ee3d8bc66088\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Give us one policy today from the National Party and I will go home happy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022251251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d232be50f1495981eb2df0bb78cac4\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I have just realised that that is something, as well\u2014I thank the member for raising what the National Party policy is\u2014because everything is our fault! Even though the National Party has not been in power for the last 6\u00BD years, everything is actually our fault! Labour has done nothing to fix the Resource Management Act, which it put on our shoulders, and everything else, but that is our fault. The Minister can stand up and veto a decision made by our courts, and it is our fault that he is vetoing that decision. So everything really is about the National Party. I am quite happy for everything to be about me, quite frankly, but it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022251251\u0022\u003EIt has been 6\u00BD years, I tell those Labour members, so it is time to take some responsibility. It is time to actually see a vision. It is time to actually give us some direction on where the country is going, and what they will achieve. They cannot make up their minds about anything. They just say \u201CLet\u2019s review, review, review.\u201D There is no vision; there is just meddling. An example of it today was when the Minister of Health answered questions. [Interruption] Sorry, I should rephrase that, really, should I not? The Minister of Health did not answer the questions. He did not know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcded46acf324fc8b7f29c9925324511\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Why not ask the questions you want answered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022908871526ecd4d89bcfc5e2c6b6cc64a\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you probably could have answered them, Annette King\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9caf34b49e848a39132b1758d85ab88\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb4e4445b49402e8eda41dc233c42e2\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I should speak through you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I am sure that Annette King could have answered the questions, because she has been there for some time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db3483ea4584b85a45e79eb793a6a5d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. The member brought the Speaker into the debate by using the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ed477f4f84647dfa30c06aea1aa666a\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I do apologise for using \u201Cyou\u201D. As I was saying, through the Assistant Speaker, I feel that answers could perhaps have been given in some other way. But the Minister did not have answers, so he could not answer those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELet us talk about Working for Families, because I notice an agenda is going on with Labour Party members this afternoon. They have all sat down and decided what they will talk about today, and they will talk about Working for Families. I am quite happy to talk about that package. I can give quite a few examples, but here is a nice key one. There are two workers in Auckland, in a company I used to work for, who sit next to each other and do pretty much the same job. They have the same key performance indicators and they are on the same salary. They are doing the same work, they are enjoying their jobs, and they are doing the same hours. But, quite simply, under Working for Families one of them will be getting, through the benefit system, a heck of a lot more money than the other one. Why is that? Because one has younger children and the other has adult children. So are you going to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d19b92da934e5db77625869c5647f3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has done it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbbc2e55f2e0487a89663fac4f90882a\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Will we say that the work of one of those workers is worth more or less than the work of the other? Will we actually make a judgment like that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00224f271d43238b4c0f9b0de35e7cc32543\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f271d43238b4c0f9b0de35e7cc32543\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has spent this whole general debate outlining what its policies are, but not one member of the Opposition or the previous speaker said anything about what they would do. There was not one policy from members of the Opposition. I gladly pick up the challenge of the previous speaker to outline what this Government\u2019s position is. It is going forward. More important, it is going forward together. \u201CEhara taku toa he toa takitini; he toa taki tahi he toa takitini\u2014my strength is not that of one who stands alone, but of one who stands with many.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori are now reflecting their M\u0101ori selves in a more vibrant, creative, and innovative way, and this Labour-led Government wants to support that energy and that trend. We are serious about that, because we know we have a good story to tell. M\u0101ori are moving forward into new territory and, in part, the Working for Families initiative helps to support that direction by supporting families into work, and by investing in a skilled workforce. We need that. In fact, in the Hui Taumata, it was said by Rob McLeod, one of the members there, that by investing in the human capital of M\u0101ori we will do much to elevate opportunity for M\u0101ori, going into the next generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ESo I pick up the challenge, and reiterate that this Labour-led Government contributes to a vision for this country of going forward together\u2014all of us, together. We are not leaving people behind. That is why the Working for Families package is so important. Across New Zealand, 350,000 families will benefit from the Working for Families package. We want to support families young and old. We know that on 1 April there will be many good stories to tell, and the announcements will be good for families, good for wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe whole emphasis of the Working for Families package is to support people by giving them a hand up, not a handout. It will help to build a skilled workforce. It will help more people into employment by recognising that it is important to support families where it matters most. How? The Working for Families package will help by providing support for accommodation costs, childcare costs, and in-work payments. Members can go to any case managers who help people move off the benefit into work, and they will tell them that the Working for Families package helps people into meaningful employment\u2014long-term employment. In fact, it helps people who never thought they would ever get off the benefit. I know that the previous speaker knows that more than most. I know she knows that; I know she agrees with this Government; and I know she knows that the Working for Families package will help people to get off the benefit and into long-term, meaningful employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EHow do I know that? Going into communities where it really matters, we hear stories every day about people from real communities and real families who say: \u201CThis package actually helps me to see a future not only for myself but for my children. It helps to provide a direction that says they don\u2019t have to be on the benefit. In fact, they can make a meaningful contribution to this society and their community.\u201D That is an important thing. The Working for Families package will help real families in real communities make a difference, not only in their lives but in the lives of their communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori in New Zealand are in a good position, to some extent. The New Zealand unemployment rate is the lowest in the OECD. The M\u0101ori unemployment rate stands at about 7.6 percent\u2014the lowest in 28 years. If that is not a good story, then I do not know what is. The Opposition did not proffer any policy that would help to support people who have been on the unemployment benefit to get back into work. The announcements on 1 April about the Working for Families package will do much to support many families to get back into work. It will help real families in real communities to change and make a difference in their lives, and in the lives of their families, to get ahead. It is a hand up, not a handout. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI want also to talk in brief about the numbers of people in tertiary education, because again 1 April signals quite a significant change in terms of students, and one that is welcomed\u2014interest-free student loans for all those students and graduates in New Zealand. It is great; we hear a number of students saying they want to celebrate that on 31 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022119ca00af26d4657ae1807236b34fb17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022119ca00af26d4657ae1807236b34fb17\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Last Wednesday was members\u2019 day, and my member\u2019s bill to remove the exemption that Pharmac currently enjoys, under Part 2 of the Commerce Act, was narrowly defeated. Unfortunately, New Zealand First members, who over the last 6 years have complained terribly about what Pharmac is doing to the access to medications in this country, saw fit to support the Government and prevent the bill from going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d75caa68fa140a085860d21257cfefc\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: They are the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e694b0a77e22419aa1126fce012955aa\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: They are the Government now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220079458abcbc43a5a1842b1d10179aaf\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: That is dead right. Since then, we have had some toing and froing between the Researched Medicines Industry Association, representing the pharmaceutical industry, and Pharmac, with regard to numbers. Since 1993, when Pharmac was first established, New Zealand has progressively moved backwards in terms of the accessibility of pharmaceuticals for New Zealanders. Less and less choice has been available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAustralia now has 729 chemical entities available on its pharmaceutical benefits schedule, compared with 713 here in New Zealand, and there is a total of 2,500 products on Australia\u2019s pharmaceutical benefits schedule, but only 1,815 here in New Zealand. Earlier this week Pharmac came out disputing those figures, but further investigation showed that when it was counting\u2014on its fingers and toes, presumably\u2014it was fudging the difference between non-medicines and medicines. When Pharmac put its figures out, it included things like condoms, bandages, and peak flow meters\u2014all of valuable assistance to people, of course, but not, in fact, medicines. So there was quite a lot of dishonesty in the figures that were being passed on to the Minister, who then repeatedly stood up in the House during the week and said what a wonderful job we were doing in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EPharmac produced a table, which it has put on its website, and it is very enlightening. It shows the difference in both the breadth and the choice of available funded drugs in each country. What the table does not show, though, and what is even more telling, is the restricted access to medicines, to new pharmaceuticals, in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWhat has been lost in this whole debate, however, about numbers of listed medicines and those medicines that are not available is the patients themselves and what they cannot get access to. A general practitioner I saw earlier this week gave me several very good examples of things he comes up against day upon day when patients are sitting in front of him in his surgery. The first example\u2014and this is a terrible example of waste\u2014is a patient with quite bad diabetes who requires an insulin pump. Because the general practitioner is not a specialist, when he is prescribing the insulin to go in the insulin pump that the patient uses at home, the general practitioner cannot prescribe the sort of insulin the patient actually needs, because Pharmac rules prohibit that; he must prescribe two different sorts of insulin. The first is the sort that Pharmac says general practitioners, because they are not specialists, have to prescribe. So the patient goes to the pharmacist with his prescription, picks up the two different sorts of insulin, and throws the first one in the rubbish bin outside the pharmacy on his way out, because it is totally useless to him. What a terrible waste that is!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe second patient the general practitioner told me about is a young M\u0101ori man who, like many young men of his age, has acne. He has tried all sorts of treatments but nothing has worked, and he requires a drug that specialists can prescribe freely but general practitioners have much more difficulty with because they are not dermatologists. Because the patient gets the medication from his general practitioner he has to pay $60 a month for it, as the prescription attracts no subsidy when it is prescribed by a general practitioner. If the patient were to see a dermatologist he would pay only $5 for a month\u2019s supply of the medicine. The difficulty, though, is that the patient cannot afford to see a dermatologist, because that would cost $175. So he is stuck seeing the general practitioner and paying $60 as opposed to $5 a month. Again, it is absolutely ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe third example concerns my own mother-in-law. She has lived a long, hard, fulfilling life, but unfortunately in her old age she has started to develop symptoms of Alzheimer\u2019s disease. Pharmac, in its wisdom, despite the fact that in other countries people have ready access to the cholinesterase inhibitors that are very successful in treating those symptoms\u2014only about 30 percent of patients do not respond to such treatment in some way, and 30 percent of patients who do respond get quite a significant reversal of their symptoms over a period of time\u2014is denying patients good-quality treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fcc94e664a3d4bdc94d61a705e3e2e2e\u0022\u003EIntelligence and Security Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221712703b9f9e430589546994dfabcb83\u0022\u003EMembership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6daa5577d2341fab6ec7bf25faa5e33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6daa5577d2341fab6ec7bf25faa5e33\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: I move, That pursuant to section 8 of the Intelligence and Security Committee Act 1996, this House endorse the following as members of the Intelligence and Security Committee:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen and Rt Hon Winston Peters, nominated by the Prime Minister under section 7(1)(c) of the Act; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ERodney Hide, nominated by the Leader of the Opposition under section 7(1)(d) of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis motion creates the Intelligence and Security Committee under the Intelligence and Security Committee Act 1996. The committee is a parliamentary committee but not a select committee. However, under Government notice of motion No. 2 it acts very like a select committee for a range of purposes, as it mirrors the Standing Orders in relation to the functions of a range of select committees. This process is laid down clearly in statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe committee consists of the Prime Minister, who, after consultation, nominates two other members; and the Leader of the Opposition, who, after consultation, nominates one other member of the committee. After consultation the Prime Minister is nominating myself, as Deputy Prime Minister, and the Rt Hon Winston Peters, as Minister of Foreign Affairs. The Leader of the Opposition, Dr Brash, is nominating Rodney Hide, the leader of the ACT party. Traditionally this debate is not very long, because obviously it would not be considered appropriate, by and large, and the House has never accepted amendments to the motion that would, in effect, override the processes undertaken respectively by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe committee performs a very useful role. I might say, with my Minister of Finance hat on\u2014rather more than Dover Samuels, I have considerable trouble over which hat I am wearing at various times at the moment\u2014that I find the work the committee does is quite helpful in terms of getting a deeper insight into what the intelligence and security agencies spend their money on. Also, I might say that, with almost no exception I can think of, those appointed to this committee have been aware of the obvious need for discretion around some of the matters that are discussed within the committee. So it is with those very few comments that I have moved Government motion No. 1, on behalf of the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002259df4d21950d4c5781edeb2ab2d783a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259df4d21950d4c5781edeb2ab2d783a4\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the House for the opportunity to speak on this motion. There will be two debates on this matter today, and I imagine that I will be speaking in both. The first point I want to make is that the Intelligence and Security Committee is one of Parliament\u2019s most powerful committees, so it properly consists of Parliament\u2019s most senior members: those who are party leaders or who hold, as in the case of Dr Cullen, very senior office. Under MMP it is deliberately a multiparty committee, and currently it covers\u2014or will cover\u2014four parties in Parliament. All but one of the members nominated served on the committee in the last Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI note that Rodney Hide is new to the committee. He is there because he is the leader of the ACT party. He brings 10 years\u2019 experience to the committee. The importance of that is that the committee is the legislature\u2019s oversight guardian of our freedoms. It is the way the legislature checks on the executive, and, because it deals with sensitive issues, it is critical that it have highly experienced members. The committee does not usually act in public or under the glare of television cameras\u2014and, frankly, nor should it. It deals, after all, with sensitive information. But the committee is intended to give a clear signal to the country that executive action by the Government is subject to legislative oversight by the most senior members of Parliament. That alone serves as a check on the abuse of power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EEvents since 2001 have put rather more focus on the anti-terrorism laws and the role and powers of the committee. That, no doubt, is why this debate may take a little longer than it might otherwise have done. It is worth noting that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee deals with the legislation pertaining to terrorism, as opposed to the operational aspects of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service and the communications service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to make some points that I may also make in my second speech. The purpose of the anti-terrorism legislation is to ensure a proper balance between protecting the community and preserving individual liberty. That is a very significant challenge in an era of terrorism, because terrorism is not just any crime. The whole act of terrorism is intended to undermine our confidence in our own institutions and freedoms. No other criminal act has that particular intent. That is why terrorism has engaged the democratic nations in the way it has. We have made a clear distinction between the terrorist and what we may call the ordinary criminal, and it is proper to do so because the ordinary criminal does not intend to overthrow our society and our values. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EPost-2001 we are no longer talking about what we may call warfare between States. Terrorists operate shadowy networks and are a threat to the whole system of international law and the protection of freedoms, because they want to overthrow them. So contemporary terrorism is much harder to deal with than, say, the attack on the Rainbow Warrior. Once the French agents were caught and tried, the French Government\u2014after a bit of delay\u2014acknowledged its responsibilities, and accepted that it was fully culpable and knew the attack was wrong. Has anyone ever heard a terrorist organisation do that? That is not the modus operandi of such organisations, and that is why terrorism is such a difficult challenge to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EHow we as a nation deal with the global challenge of terrorism is a measure of how we value our own liberties and freedoms.I refer the House to a paper by Justice Baragwanath entitled Liberty and Justice in the Face of Terrorist Threats to Society. It superbly illustrates the dilemmas. The paper, I believe, demonstrates why Justice Baragwanath is rightly regarded as one of New Zealand\u2019s most distinguished legal minds. He sets out very clearly how terrorism challenges modern democracies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EFor instance, Justice Baragwanath notes that conventional criminal law will not always be enough to deal with the terrorist\u2014that sometimes special powers are necessary. I am sure that the Green Party member will dispute that, but he needs to read that paper and understand why Justice Baragwanath draws that point. The judge makes a clear distinction in his paper from the views of Auckland University lecturer Dr Paul Buchanan, who has taken an absolutist view that the criminal law is always enough. Well, the truth is that it is not. That is why this Parliament very carefully passed, in compliance with United Nations resolutions, the legislation dealing with terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe judge, in his paper, contrasts the law of New Zealand with that of the United Kingdom. He says that New Zealand has struck a more appropriate balance than the United Kingdom between protecting its freedoms and being able to deal with terrorists. New Zealand has not been a prime target as yet, since 2001, for terrorism. It is not surprising that countries where that has happened, Britain, Australia, and the United States, will strike the balance a little differently from New Zealand. Justice Baragwanath treats that issue solely as a jurist. His concern, of course, is to ensure that the rule of law is observed and that liberty is always protected. That is, after all, one of the fundamental reasons why we have an independent judiciary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EBut the executive and the legislature have quite a different role from that of the judiciary. We have to, often under the urgent pressure of events, deal with the overall safety of society. Every member in this House, I believe, is imbued with the ideas of liberty and democracy. It is, after all, one of the foundations of our country. It is one of the reasons why we come to Parliament in the first place. When we are passing legislation, we always have to keep those values uppermost, because they can disappear by neglect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EBut I make this point. If we did have a terrorist event and 20 people were killed, for instance, would we reject out of hand the notion that we should be able to detain people for 48 hours who are suspected of involvement in terrorism, even if they could not be immediately charged? Under our current law we cannot do that. But in Britain and in Australia, they can be detained. Why? Those countries face a different threat from New Zealand\u2019s. Are their fundamental values and liberties seriously questioned by that fact? I suggest they are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI conclude this debate by saying that the Intelligence and Security Committee and its membership are charged with protecting our liberties. The country looks to those members to have that uppermost in their minds. They are deliberately chosen as senior members of this Parliament. They are there to protect our freedoms but at the same time to defend public safety\u2014to ensure that we are safe. The experience, certainly in my time in the House, is that the committee has always satisfactorily fulfilled that goal, and I am sure it will in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022940cd60ec6964101ac319cd1b86c60ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022940cd60ec6964101ac319cd1b86c60ab\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be opposing this motion. Wayne Mapp pointed out the security issues of terrorism, etc., and stressed the importance of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I think it is for that very reason\u2014that it is an important committee\u2014that we should oppose the motion on its membership. It is not like a select committee. It is made up only of nominees of the Labour leader and the National leader. The National Party leader is described in this motion as the Leader of the Opposition. That is not a term that the Greens like. We have criticised it ever since we have been in Parliament. It is a pre-MMP term. There are a number of parties in this House. There is not just one Labour Party and one party, the National Party, heading an Opposition. We all have our different politics, and it is not right to have a committee that gives only the leader of the National Party the authority to offer nominations from parties such as ours or from the M\u0101ori Party, whose members are sitting behind me today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have a problem here because I would like to replace some of these nominations. The motion itself is to endorse all the nominations. I understand that we cannot just offer an amendment. [Interruption] I might take advice from the National member, but I understand that I cannot just put in an amendment to replace one of the members with another member. But I think there is a case for doing that. I asked written questions of the Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service, Helen Clark. She replied a week ago and informed me that in 2005 the committee met on only one occasion, for 43 minutes. I do not think that is good enough, and I will be explaining the situation regarding the whole parliamentary term further in my second speech, which will be on Government notice of motion No. 2. The committee\u2019s record has got worse, year by year, in terms of the amount of time it has met. I think one of the problems, to give the members some benefit of the doubt\u2014and I am not giving them the full benefit\u2014is that they are busy people. The Prime Minister is busy, Don Brash is busy, and the other members on the committee, including Michael Cullen and Winston Peters, who have been renominated, are busy people. I think we should try to change the composition from that which is in this motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is a bit difficult, I think, to take the Prime Minister away from the committee, particularly when she is in charge of the Security Intelligence Service. I think it would also be a bit difficult to take away Don Brash. I would give Rodney Hide a chance, because this is his first time on the committee. He is not responsible for the failings of the committee in the last Parliament. I think Richard Prebble was a member previously. Was he a nominee last time? I am not sure. Rodney Hide certainly was not. But Michael Cullen and Winston Peters were on the committee previously. I think the technique of individual nominations, and hopefully the House will agree with this, would improve the workings of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ELater on, at the end of my speech, I will seek leave for the House to vote separately on those nominations. If that is the case, I will propose that we do not vote Michael Cullen or Winston Peters on to the committee. Clearly they do not have the time or there is something wrong with their involvement with the committee, or it would have met more than once last year. I think it would serve the interests of the House and the interests of the committee if we have on it people with previous ministerial experience who are less busy. I will be proposing that instead of Michael Cullen and Winston Peters we have two former Ministers, namely Marian Hobbs and David Parker. I think it would be a good challenge for David Parker to take up, now that, unfortunately, he has been relieved of his other responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIf we have a better committee and it has a better composition, it might deal with some of the issues that Wayne Mapp talked about, because clearly it did not in the last Parliament. The committee had to do reviews of the estimates and financial reviews in the 43 minutes that it sat in the whole of last year. I do not think its members would have had time to do much more than make themselves a cup of coffee and do a very quick job on those financial reviews. I do not think they really got into the issues of terrorism, etc., that Wayne Mapp talked about. That is my proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00226a49a24c734843e186d2e3ef5d7b6375\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a49a24c734843e186d2e3ef5d7b6375\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I compliment the Green member who has just resumed his seat. At least he spoke about the composition of the committee, because I did not hear one word from the National Party that referred to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EFor those who might be listening, we are debating a Government motion in the name of the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Helen Clark, whereby we are requested to endorse members nominated to be on the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Prime Minister is automatically on that committee, and as I understand so is the Leader of the Opposition, Dr Don Brash. The three members we are asked to endorse are Dr Michael Cullen, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and Rodney Hide MP. New Zealand First has absolutely no problem at all in supporting the nomination of Dr Michael Cullen nor, indeed, that of the Rt Hon Winston Peters. They are both long-serving MPs, they have both had ministerial experience, and they both know how to address security issues and keep confidences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBut we have some significant concerns with Rodney Hide. I am not a person who likes to make personal attacks, and that is one of the things I deplore about Rodney Hide. Speaking absolutely frankly, I consider that he operates in the political gutter, more often than not. He is prepared to make major personal attacks on individuals without having supporting information. I say that, because I believe he would be the MP who has been asked to withdraw and apologise, or who has been thrown out of the House, the most times. New Zealand First asks whether that is the sort of person we want to represent Parliament on the Intelligence and Security Committee. The answer to that, in the minds of New Zealand First members, is no. I recall that Rodney Hide went to Fiji and supported a pyramid selling scheme. If that had taken off, millions of dollars of people\u2019s savings would have been at risk and could have been lost. I know that several hundreds of thousands of dollars were. That is a concern to members of New Zealand First. We recall that he supported an American who classified himself as a friend of paedophilia. I would not go so far as to say that the American was a paedophile, but many people thought he was. But Rodney Hide came out and supported him, and said he was his friend. We say that Rodney Hide is not the sort of person who should be serving this country on the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament. Further, we say that for the National Party to nominate such a person does not really do it credit. If members look at the history of this committee, they will see that some very fine, upright MPs have been nominated in the past, and to pick Rodney Hide as National\u2019s representative\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c7bd302a5304c7392a8a6e625f3d913\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Scraping the bottom of the barrel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8e95b98993540898034d68ede070a3b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to be a little more kindly than my colleague and say that the National Party could have done a great deal better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWhat about the Hon Peter Dunne, who has served Parliament pretty darn well in his time here? He is a very experienced MP. What about a member of the M\u0101ori Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cde8c28c72e4f1e8c3c070b1e3c513b\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Too new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dbddf11f2954fcb997fd8339a6c40a8\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CToo new\u201D the member says? Whether or not we agree with the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s political views, its members have come into this House this term\u2014they were represented briefly in the last term\u2014and have taken a positive attitude towards security and issues of concern. I think that M\u0101ori Party members could serve on that committee exceedingly well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EMr Assistant Speaker, may I ask whether this motion can be split into two so that New Zealand First can vote for the first bullet point that supports the nominations of Dr Cullen and the Rt Hon Winston Peters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d954dcd3cbe40e68b1639b387512b4c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member that New Zealand First can so move, by leave, and I suggest that the member look at Speaker\u2019s ruling 179/2. I suggest that the honourable member Keith Locke also look at that ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a051c12f47f74cc3873eaeb31e3f5d0e\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Perhaps it would make it easier if I seek leave now. I indicated that I would seek leave for each nomination to be voted on individually, so that if we voted any nomination down we could put up another nomination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f40808c0c559403ea37a0a5a61d203bb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just respond to that and read to the member Speaker\u2019s ruling 179/2: \u201CAs appointments to the Intelligence and Security Committee are made on the nomination of the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition and are submitted to the House for endorsement only, the House cannot amend the nominations. The motion could be severed so as to allow members to vote on each nomination separately.\u201D So Mr Locke can seek leave to vote on each nomination separately, but he cannot renominate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed6451afcbe6406f9ddd22a5460cb2f3\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf8af389bf04829861600c7bd28b21e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930ace75d5aa4676b8c6e89750028a36\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I have just about come to the end of my contribution. However, if we cannot have a split vote on that, then New Zealand First will vote for the motion. But we give notice now that we will be taking a close interest in Mr Hide\u2019s activities and approach to that committee. Indeed, we will be watching the National Party with close interest, because we believe that it could have picked a person more appropriate to this issue. We do not believe that Mr Hide fills the bill, at all. So we give notice now that we are watching the situation, but we will give Mr Hide the benefit of the doubt at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022138c00e9f61946aa95ae708ab8e33b91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022138c00e9f61946aa95ae708ab8e33b91\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E The M\u0101ori Party is pleased to stand today in respect of the motion that refers to the Intelligence and Security Committee. We certainly support the call that has been consistently presented by Mr Keith Locke and the Green Party for a broader debate on the issue of intelligence and security matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhen I was not yet an MP, the word was that the new anti-terrorism legislation currently going through Parliament could see protestors or activists designated as terrorists. Mr Locke argued publicly that the proposed legislation being pushed through by the Government at that time was a travesty of democracy. His concern was the obscene rush in which the strict new measures were being forced through without public consultation, and it made me think at the time\u2014and I still am considering\u2014about why there was not a broader discussion on how this nation protects itself and who it is protecting itself from. Now that the cold war is over, who is the enemy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is a very appropriate time for such a debate to be generated, as the State Services Commission embarks upon its recruitment period for a new Director of Security for the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. From what I understand, there has always been a fascination for that particular place\u2014the so-called \u201CKingdom of Secrets\u201D\u2014and for what consequences it has in curtailing the freedom and civil rights of citizens. Tangata whenua have consistently put forward concerns that the Security Intelligence Service has bugged decent, law-abiding New Zealanders to find the dirt on individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party had a particular involvement with the nature of the checks and protections made upon citizens, in late 2004. At that time, many will remember, a Sunday newspaper reported that intelligence sources had revealed that the Security Intelligence Service had launched a major covert operation investigating the M\u0101ori Party\u2014our members, leaders, networks, and associates. The newspaper provided a detailed description of a top-secret programme called Operation Leaf, which was a major Security Intelligence Service programme targeting a variety of M\u0101ori organisations and individuals over several years. At that time, one of the former Security Intelligence Service agents interviewed in the article allegedly said that he quit the operation because he was disgusted at the system, which was spying on decent, law-abiding New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs we considered the most appropriate action to take in that matter as a party, the Prime Minister responded with reports that those allegations were \u201Ca work of fiction\u201D and \u201Claughable\u201D. The party was in a quandary. Was the Prime Minister speaking in her capacity as the Prime Minister or in her role as the Minister in charge of the Security Intelligence Service\u2014the same Minister who signs all interception warrants? Frankly, we were in no position to judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe decided instead to take action on behalf of everyday decent, law-abiding citizens to allay any concerns that they too would run the risk of coming under Security Intelligence Service surveillance if they made the fine decision to join the mighty M\u0101ori Party. We therefore called on the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, retired judge Justice Paul Neazor, to initiate an inquiry into the allegations made about the activities of the Security Intelligence Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe motions we are discussing today are focused on the special parliamentary committee charged with the oversight of the intelligence agencies. The Intelligence and Security Committee was set up under 1996 legislation to increase the level of oversight and review of the Security Intelligence Service and the Government Communications Security Bureau. Yet no matter how effective the committee\u2019s members might be\u2014and we know full well that ACT leader, Rodney Hide, will do his utmost to apply rigor and reason to his role in that forum\u2014it is still somewhat hampered in its coverage. I say that because my understanding is that although the committee can examine policies, administration, and spending, it is barred by law from delving into operationally sensitive matters, including any that relate to intelligence collection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EReturning to the time when our party was under the spotlight for security issues, there was unprecedented support across all parties\u2014National, ACT, New Zealand First, United Future, the Greens, and the M\u0101ori Party\u2014for some kind of inquiry into the allegations published in the media. As any member of this House will know, achieving a collective voice on any issue on any one day is extremely improbable. That widespread support to uncover who spies on the spies is clearly an issue that we are all keen to explore further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs I understand it, Dr Brash\u2014himself a member of the cross-party Intelligence and Security Committee that oversees the Security Intelligence Service\u2014stated that he thought the allegations were too serious to ignore, and that only an independent inquiry could clear up the issue. Indeed, he believed that the claims had the potential to put the public confidence in the Security Intelligence Service at risk. Our now Minister of Foreign Affairs said then he thought that the allegations were disquieting and that a ministerial inquiry would work only if the person had the public\u2019s confidence and was independent of the Government. ACT leader, Rodney Hide, said that the only way to deal with such serious allegations was to initiate an independent inquiry by a judicial officer with the powers to ensure that the Security Intelligence Service cooperated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI will not go on, but I think it is noticeable that such widespread cross-party support is rare, and it reminds us all of the need to stay vigilant. The perception of bias and dirt gathering, accurate or otherwise, by politicians and the public, must be investigated if we are ever to develop trust in our existing systems of freedom and justice. The security and intelligence systems operating in this land must be subject to the scrutiny of public debate and official inquiry. New Zealanders take for granted that our freedom to live in an open democracy is a basic standard of living for our nation. But we also recognise the significance of every country having a right to security and a right to be secure from its neighbours. No country should ever be in a position of being threatened in the way that we have seen with nations around the globe. We have an expression in te reo M\u0101ori: \u201CMe te k\u0101hu e topa ana ki te kiore.\u201D\u2014like the hawk swooping down on the rat. By this we consider the taua, the war party, who may attack another without warning. Essentially, it refers to the need to be aware of the unseen enemy. But we also need to be open to exploring this new concept of protection, security, and being threatened. We need to think carefully about how we agree on those we think will be like the k\u0101hu swooping down on us, and on those who are the unseen enemy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party is aware of the double-edged sword that comes with any debate on intelligence and security matters. There is no argument that we must ensure individual liberties and also ensure that people are able to have a voice, whether it be by ministerial letter, submission, appeal to the court, talkback radio, liberation movements, or mass protest. We also agree that there are mechanisms for responding to crimes of terrorism through the criminal law system. We must have the right to have our rangatiratanga protected as we affirm the right to the rangatiratanga of any other people\u2014the right to maintain our and their sense of being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00221b6f678ff17a4209a4d02389f28263e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b6f678ff17a4209a4d02389f28263e6\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I have three very brief comments on the actual motion: firstly, United Future will be supporting it; secondly, we have, that notwithstanding, absolutely no confidence whatsoever in the ability of Mr Hide to make a contribution to anything constructive, let alone to the work of this committee; and, thirdly, we note with sadness and disappointment the bad judgment of Dr Brash in nominating him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002278c257ad243745188e215171bc6dc1c2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcd07d7faf18471ebf7de28a03fa7dd6\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u2014Sessional\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228dc4c9179e544340a638e043ef2f3b4c\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u2014Sessional\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022abdd46df54454b5fa0e32e43e04b0df7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abdd46df54454b5fa0e32e43e04b0df7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe Intelligence and Security Committee shall examine the Estimates Vote for each intelligence and security agency (Standing Orders 248, 249, 250, 330 are to be read and applied accordingly);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(b) the Intelligence and Security Committee shall examine the Supplementary Estimates for each intelligence and security agency (Standing Orders 248, 249, 250, 333 are to be read and applied accordingly);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(c)\tthe Intelligence and Security Committee shall conduct a financial review of the performance in the previous financial year and the current operations of each intelligence and security agency (Standing Orders 248, 249, 250, 335, 336 are to be read and applied accordingly);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(d)\tno select committee shall examine an intelligence and security agency;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(e)\ta bill or other matter relating to an intelligence and security agency may be referred by the House to the Intelligence and Security Committee (Standing Orders 248, 249, 250, 251, 252, 275, 276, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289, 291, 292, 294, 295, 296 are to be read and applied accordingly);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(f)\tthe Clerk shall allocate any petition relating to an intelligence and security agency to the Intelligence and Security Committee (Standing Order 361);\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(g)\tfor the purposes of this order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\t\u2018intelligence and security agency\u2019 means the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service or the Government Communications Security Bureau; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\t\u2018Intelligence and Security Committee\u2019 means the Intelligence and Security Committee established by section 5 of the Intelligence and Security Committee Act 1996. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis motion essentially repeats the motion moved at the start of the last Parliament by defining a number of roles for the Intelligence and Security Committee that essentially mirror those of a parliamentary select committee, and this, of course, is a parliamentary committee set up under statute rather than under the Standing Orders of Parliament. So, in other words, the committee carries out the estimates functions, supplementary estimates functions, and financial review. It may consider bills referred to that are within the appropriate scope of the committee, and petitions that deal with Intelligence and Security Committee matters. Obviously, this is the appropriate range of work for this particular parliamentary committee, and I think again that it shows that progress has been made in terms of opening up, but carefully, the work of the intelligence and security agencies to parliamentary scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b836e5bf96d3421b86337f4b626e14e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b836e5bf96d3421b86337f4b626e14e0\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E The first motion deals with the membership of the committee. The second motion deals with what the committee actually does, which is primarily to examine the activities of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service, through the estimates, and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to return to the points I was making earlier and, in particular, to comment on the speech made by a member of the M\u0101ori Party and the role of the Inspector-General of Security. The role of the Inspector-General is intended, of course, to be precisely the opportunity for the actions of the Security Intelligence Service to be examined critically in an independent and impartial way. That is the whole purpose of that particular entity. As we all know at the present moment, the Inspector-General is doing a very careful and thorough job in relation to Mr Ahmed Zaoui, and it is not for this Parliament to prejudge the way he does that. We must trust him as a very senior member of the High Court to be able to do that job, understanding fully the importance of the rule of law and protecting freedoms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E So I believe that the issues raised by the M\u0101ori Party were properly dealt with by the very kind of independent inquiry it sought, through the role of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn turning to the issue of David Baragwanath\u2019s paper, I point out that he raised two further important points. I say to members of the House that in dealing with an issue of this nature, his paper is an important one to read. I know that Mr Brown was critical of the fact that I did not deal too deeply with the membership of the committee but, rather, went on to talk about the more general issues, but this is probably the only time we can do so. It is actually the fundamental issues that we should spend the debating time of Parliament dealing with. In his paper David Baragwanath talked about the balance between protecting public safety, the challenge of terrorism, and at the same time protecting the rule of law and our fundamental freedoms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EFurther in the paper David Baragwanath makes another two points. The first is the role of civil society to properly examine measures undertaken by the legislature and the executive, not just at the time but also on mature reflection. That is particularly important to do because, let us be honest, those pieces of legislation were passed under the pressure of events\u2014the terrorist acts of 2001, and following\u2014and it is right and proper that they should be carefully analysed. I know that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has done that very task. Dr Lockwood Smith was part of the select committee that undertook that careful examination, and the committee made various recommendations. Of course, it is one of the roles of university academics, legal commentators, and others also to undertake that careful analysis. That has also been done in other jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe judge raised an interesting final point, and that was the idea of redemption. It is not a term that one would normally think of in relation to terrorism, but the truth is that yesterday\u2019s terrorists can become today\u2019s statesmen. Nelson Mandela is the most obvious example of that. I suggest that in more contemporary times this will have to be dealt with in relation to Israel, Palestine, and Iraq. The truth is that at some point Israel and Hamas will have to find a way to talk to each other, because the alternative is actually just a continuation of violence. The British Government and the IRA were faced with precisely this dilemma a number of years ago and they came to the realisation that they had to move forward and talk and put down the gun. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI might say that the situation also prevails in Iraq. These are perhaps personal comments. The coalition has won the war. Saddam Hussein was arrested in November 2003 out of the spider hole. He is being tried in a court, as he should properly be. Surely there can hardly be a single Iraqi who would now wish to return to the days of Saddam. So the coalition achieved its goal of setting Iraq on the path of democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I suggest now has to be done\u2014and it is a role that New Zealand has within the United Nations\u2014is to think how the current situation can be resolved, and the role of the coalition in that. The truth is that the war against Saddam\u2019s regime was won. Iraq is on the pathway to democracy. It had a huge turn-out in its recent elections and it is now time for it to work out its own democratic future, and, notwithstanding the current turmoil in that country, I am sure that it can do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI can see some people looking at me and wondering why I am raising this matter in the context of this debate. It is for this reason: the way in which democracies deal with global terrorism and its other effects tests the balance of public safety and liberty. It is the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee, when dealing with issues around the Security Intelligence Service, to also assure the New Zealand public that it has a complete and full understanding of that position. Maybe 43 minutes was a bit short\u2014perhaps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI conclude on this point: this committee is a multiparty committee. It consists quite carefully of senior members. The New Zealand First Party might go on about Rodney Hide, but I have certainly heard another member of Parliament make the same kind of outlandish allegations, and that person is the Rt Hon Winston Peters. Yet he has always been able to discharge his role on that committee properly. I do not think anyone has ever questioned his role on that committee. I was heartened by the final comments made by Mr Peter Brown when he said that New Zealand First members would give Mr Rodney Hide the chance to prove himself. The truth is that Mr Hide is a robust debater in this House. He uses the freedom of speech in this House. But I also believe that with 10 years\u2019 experience, he understands the importance of the role of protecting the critical balance between public safety and protecting our liberties. I guess the one thing we could say about Mr Hide, more than we could about most people, is that he is acutely conscious of protecting individual liberties and freedoms. That is the very raison d\u2019\u00EAtre of his party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESo I think that it was fair for Mr Brown to say that Mr Hide should have a chance to prove himself on the committee, just as Winston Peters did\u2014and, certainly, some of my colleagues questioned his appointment 3 years ago. I believe that Rodney Hide will also demonstrate that he is a proper person to discharge the responsibilities of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbf9bdacaf53428ea800940edf722e88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbf9bdacaf53428ea800940edf722e88\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Intelligence and Security Committee, in the last Parliament, had the most disgraceful record of any committee in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThis parliamentary debate, by my calculations, has gone for nearly three-quarters of an hour, which is more than this committee sat for in the whole of last year. This committee sat once last year, on 14 June, for a total of 43 minutes. The committee was not much better the previous year, 2004, when it met for 84 minutes\u2014that is, for 49 minutes on 15 June, and for 35 minutes on 14 December. In 2003 the committee met for a little more time\u2014a total of 113 minutes made up of 44 minutes on 19 March, 20 minutes on 10 June, and 49 minutes on 16 December. In 2002, after the July election, it met just once, for 49 minutes, on 17 December. This makes a total of 4 hours and 49 minutes for the whole of the parliamentary term. So in 3 years this committee sat for not much more time in total than a normal select committee meets for every week. We are lucky even to know how hopeless the committee is, because it has not reported on the record I have just described to the House. I obtained the information through written questions to the Minister in charge of the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service, Helen Clark. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ELet us look at what the committee did report on to the House in the last Parliament. It reported three times on the Budget estimates, three times on supplementary estimates, and three times on financial reviews. None of the committee\u2019s reports to the House exceeded two sentences, and none told us anything other than that the committee had done an examination or a review. For the financial reviews it needed a second sentence to ask that the House take note of its report. Yes, I think that the House should take note of the three reports on the financial reviews and conclude that this committee is not doing its job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI have here the estimates and supplementary estimates for the Security Intelligence Service and the Government Communications Security Bureau during the last parliamentary term. They tell us nothing other than the gross amount spent by these agencies. For example, for the 2004-05 year the figures were $22.5 million for the Security Intelligence Service and $38.963 million for the Government Communications Security Bureau. Unlike the estimates for all other State agencies there was no breakdown for capital expenditure, staff, etc. Why did the Intelligence and Security Committee not comment on that in its report? Why did it allow that to happen? It cannot argue security reasons for denying Parliament and the public such general information on expenditure. We are entitled to suspect that the reason for that is to avoid any substantive debate on intelligence matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIf the Security Intelligence Service and the Government Communications Security Bureau keep quiet about what they are spending money on, and the Intelligence and Security Committee goes along with that, then there will be less public debate. Is that why there is all the secrecy? Why, for example, can we not know how much the Waihopai satellite communications interception station is costing the taxpayer? It is primarily a spy station for the US National Security Agency, which is the same agency that George Bush has been misusing illegally to spy on American people\u2014that is, spying on them without a warrant. Every day the National Security Agency takes information from the millions of phone calls, faxes, and emails that are drawn down into Waihopai near Blenheim from the two communications satellites over the Pacific equator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere is pressure on the Government Communications Security Bureau to be a little more forthcoming in its activities, and it was good that its director, Warren Tucker, wrote an op-ed in the Dominion Post and the Press newspapers on 31 January. However, it included only generalities about the good work it is doing in the communications surveillance area, and claimed, without any evidence, the \u201Cimmense benefits\u201D of its close links with American and British partners. In the article, Mr Tucker claimed that the Intelligence and Security Committee functioned in much the same way as a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe problem is that it does not. It operates outside of the Office of the Clerk, and Standing Orders in general do not apply to it, apart from some in reference to financial reviews and the things mentioned in the motion before us today. One of the problems with the motion is that it shuts out all other committees from even considering intelligence issues. It specifically forbids other committees from doing so. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee does overlap the intelligence area, to the extent that its members know that intelligence gathering is going on through police and customs and the defence intelligence units. Why should we not be allowed to stray into the security and intelligence and Government Communications Security Bureau areas at all in our consideration if we want to have a coherent understanding of intelligence gathering across all agencies in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAlso, the motion before us prevents any petitions from going to any other committee than the Intelligence and Security Committee, which means that one cannot have proper consideration of those petitions if the oversight body for the intelligence services is also the body having to respond to the petitions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe abysmal record of the Intelligence and Security Committee proves the point the Greens have been making for years, that the committee should be abolished and replaced by a true select committee in Parliament. A member\u2019s bill in my name, the Intelligence and Security Committee Act Repeal Bill, was debated in the year 2000, but unfortunately was defeated in Parliament. Hiding behind a wall of secrecy, the Security Intelligence Service, the Government Communications Security Bureau, and the supposed supervisory body, the Intelligence and Security Committee, have been able to avoid real accountability to the House. We need a true multiparty select committee, not one appointed by National and Labour leaders that meets so infrequently that it effectively gives the intelligence services carte blanche to do what they want, with barely any questioning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is true that with any supervisory committee of intelligences services, a certain level of confidentiality needs to apply. But when one has total unaccountability to Parliament\u2014as is currently the case\u2014as with any other Government department, incompetence may be hidden. I am not just stating that hypothetically; we can see the Security Intelligence Service\u2019s incompetence in the Ahmed Zaoui case. Firstly, in 2003 the Refugee Status Appeals Authority was \u201Csurprised at how limited\u201D the Security Intelligence Service material was, it being mainly unsourced extracts from various news reports containing \u201Cerroneous claims\u201D and relying in one case on a \u201Cself-evidently dubious source\u201D. Then we have the Security Intelligence Service\u2019s summary of allegations against Ahmed Zaoui provided in February 2004, which are laughable. The paranoid incompetence of the Security Intelligence Service reached new heights when it described a tourist video of Mr Zaoui\u2019s that has his face and voice on it as being \u201Csuspiciously like a casing video\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat is the same summary of allegations that let the cat out of the bag that the Security Intelligence Service\u2019s concern about Mr Zaoui was all about not upsetting other Western Governments and their intelligence agencies\u2014that is, diplomatic concerns\u2014rather than because he is a threat to our security. The paragraph in the Security Intelligence Service summary of allegations reads: \u201CIf Mr Zaoui, with his public record, were allowed to settle here, that would indicate that New Zealand has a lower level of concern about security than other like-minded countries. That would impact adversely on New Zealand\u2019s reputation with such countries and thus on New Zealand\u2019s international well-being.\u201D So much for the rights of Ahmed Zaoui to have due process and, as the Supreme Court said in its judgment, be proved to be a real threat to security. I am confident that, after all those processes that have been gone through, he will be proved to be a genuine refugee, as already stated by the Refugee Status Appeals Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWith the incompetence of the Security Intelligence Service and the wrong, political approach that it has taken in the Zaoui case, it is important that any parliamentary supervision be cross-party and more interrogatory. I agree with my colleague Wayne Mapp that there are a lot of issues for the Intelligence and Security Committee to deal with; there is just no way it has dealt with them in the time it sat. In fact, it has not done anything more than hear a few briefings and do a very sketchy financial review in the last Parliament. There is no indication, with the present membership of the committee being largely unchanged, that it will do a better job in this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022edf181a448ff40c098b8c305948f5f26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edf181a448ff40c098b8c305948f5f26\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E There are two lifestyle attributes that New Zealanders value: one is freedom\u2014the freedom to do what they want and the freedom to go where they want\u2014and the other is security. New Zealanders want to feel secure in their homes and secure when they travel. Not too many years ago New Zealanders had both. They could feel free, they had total freedom, and they were totally secure. That is no longer the case, in part because of internal problems, and in part also because of external problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First sees the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee\u2014albeit it is a relatively small one, in a global sense\u2014as being to balance lifestyle choices between freedom and security. The members of this committee are undertaking an important mission. It is important not only for the security of the country but also for the well-being of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will support the motion. We do not share the views of the Green member who has just outlined why the committee should not be in existence. We do not share that view, at all. We believe that there is an important role for the committee. We do not measure the importance of that role on how often the committee sits or how long it sits for. We believe that there is a function for the committee, and that it should be there and should sit and meet as required. New Zealand First supports the motion because we believe that the committee plays an important role in the administration of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002230a19970203b419aa1b668a6657ed298\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221080723f5dec4e7197d093204afcd030\u0022\u003ETaxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221706a9de441646feae99532bf1ae91c8\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002266ed30da65d243508b64a444cb3e6ea3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ed30da65d243508b64a444cb3e6ea3\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill be now read a third time. This bill gives effect to a number of business-friendly tax measures that were introduced in last year\u2019s Budget, with the primary objective of promoting and sustaining New Zealand\u2019s economic growth. The measures that the bill includes are inherently technical, but are extremely important. They include, for example, proposed changes to tax depreciation rules aiming to ensure the more productive use of capital\u2014a package that over the next 4 years alone will amount to $1 billion in revenue forgone by the Crown in the interests of fostering economic growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe measures also include a series of changes aimed at making the tax side of business a little bit easier for the many small businesses in New Zealand. We have made changes to the provisional tax date, fringe benefit tax, and GST rules in terms of the dates by which returns have to be filed. We have introduced the notion of compensation for payroll agents, and a range of other measures that make it that little bit easier to do business in New Zealand. We recognise the contribution that our small to medium sized business sector in particular plays in promoting and sustaining New Zealand\u2019s economic growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe bill also contains some important measures aimed at improving our access to worldwide capital, skills, and labour, and it recognises the contribution that returning New Zealanders and new residents make to this country by allowing the forgoing for a period of some of their overseas tax obligations once they return to this country. During the Committee stage there was some debate about this particular set of provisions and the relationship they had to, certainly, our major market, Australia, and how comparable they might be. In essence, the situation we arrived at was that these changes are positive. They have been amended by the select committee from what was originally proposed. In many senses they are not quite apples and apples with Australia, because of differing conditions and differing interpretations in that country regarding residence status. But they are a start, and a step in the right direction, and I gave an undertaking that particularly the 10-year limit that is imposed by the bill will be kept under review as we move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere are other significant measures in the bill. An important change, which has been widely welcomed, was introduced by way of a Supplementary Order Paper to deal with the issue of what has become known as an unacceptable tax position. That issue arose out of the 1996 penalties regime, whereby a genuine error by a taxpayer or an agent acting on behalf of the taxpayer hitherto potentially attracted a penalty compounding at 20 percent, but the changes mean that a discretion is now available to the commissioner to apply some judgment in favour of the taxpayer in such circumstances where it is clear that the action has arisen as a result of a genuine error. That move has been widely welcomed, and understandably so. I indicated to the Committee that it was an interim step, pending a wider review later this year of the penalties regime, although I expected that the change made in this bill will not be inconsistent with the changes that are to come a little later on. The bill also gives effect to changes to both the depreciation regime for bloodstock and also the duty applicable to racing clubs, pursuant to the agreement between the Labour-led Government and the New Zealand First Party. I imagine that the Minister for Racing will take a call a little later in the debate to speak about those matters in more detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI simply want to say at this stage that I acknowledge the contribution of my own officials in the Inland Revenue Department, the officials in Treasury, and those responsible for the drafting of this bill. It is a very thick tome, as these essentially remedial matters usually are, and it is in clear English\u2014as best as tax legislation ever will be. I acknowledge those who made submissions to the bill. I acknowledge the regulars, like the Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand and the Law Society, and the many other groups that made submissions to the select committee and had an input. I appreciate the consideration that Mr Shane Jones and other members of the committee gave the legislation over a long period of time and the amendments they recommended, which we were pleased to adopt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to acknowledge the members of the House who contributed to the debate last evening. I thought we were able to have a pretty robust and informative Committee stage debate. I appreciate the support of virtually all parties in the House for the measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249bcfb68e45b493d9af1646f339b40c4\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Except for the colleague on your right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d278679ff74a41bf95e03615d7e1b5be\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I did say I appreciate the support of virtually all members of the House. I was also gratified by the abstention of some not turning into outright opposition, and I shall say no more on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI commend the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill to the House, and I observe as I close that this must be one of those rare occasions where near unanimity has been achieved in the passage of tax legislation. I certainly cannot recall offhand\u2014I am looking at one or two of my advisers at the other end of the Chamber, who may be able to dredge their memories and prove me wrong\u2014in the time I have been here, another bill that has been as well received as this one. Maybe that is a harbinger of good things to come. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022f56cfb14cdb94502bc2f6d1eccd270f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f56cfb14cdb94502bc2f6d1eccd270f1\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise to speak in the third reading debate of the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. I would like to make it very clear from the outset that National supports the legislation. We have supported it right the way through its proceedings through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI congratulate the Minister of Revenue, who has just spoken, because, during the Committee stage of the legislation yesterday, he paid the Committee, including members of the Opposition, the courtesy of listening to the serious issues raised and responding to them in an intelligent manner, and that was appreciated. I would like to cover some of those issues. It is also gratifying that the Minister has taken on board some of the issues raised, and that he intends to make sure that the Government monitors the situation over the next period of time to make sure that the measures that the bill is implementing have the desired effect and do not produce unexpected outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe issues that National focused on related particularly to three groups of issues. The first was the issues surrounding the amendments to the legislation to try to make New Zealand a more attractive place to internationally mobile people with high-value skills. Both sides of the House realise now that there are people in this world who are attractive to a number of countries because they have sought-after skills. They often command quite high wages and salaries, and they are the kinds of people who can live and be paid well in a number of countries. But they have the skills we need here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf we want to attract those people here, we must make our taxation regime attractive to them. If we have to provide special exemptions to them, I think it does beg the question as to whether our overall tax regime is sufficiently internationally competitive. That is not the subject of the legislation, but it is a point I make. If New Zealand were to make our personal tax regime more attractive\u2014and I appreciate that the business tax regime is currently under review\u2014people who had the choice could then choose to have their international income taxed in New Zealand. So there is the wider issue. The need in the legislation to provide exemptions does bring into question whether our personal tax regime is sufficiently competitive internationally these days. I think it is fair to observe that our higher tax rates cut in at pretty low levels of income, and that does not make our taxation regime particularly attractive internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E I come to the specific provisions of the bill. Clause 77 sets out exemptions for certain classes of people seeking to return to or come to New Zealand by exempting certain of their foreign income from taxation here in New Zealand for a period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe debate during the Committee of the whole House focused on a couple of particular issues. There are two sorts of people whom we are trying to attract here. I will deal first with the New Zealanders whom we are trying to attract back to New Zealand. They are highly skilled New Zealanders who have been offshore for a while and who have offshore income because of their time offshore. We want to attract those people back to New Zealand. That is the first group of people we are addressing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe legislation that is having its third reading today provides a tax exemption for certain of their foreign income if they have lived outside New Zealand for a period of 10 years. The Minister just referred to that. National argued during the Committee stage that the 10-year period is a long time. Ten years is too long for New Zealanders to have to be offshore before they can come back home and qualify for this exemption on certain of their foreign income\u2014they would always be taxed on any income they earned in New Zealand. By the time New Zealanders have been offshore for 10 years, they are thoroughly settled in those foreign countries. They may have married into a family offshore, their children will probably be involved in schools there, and they will be totally involved in those societies and their communities. It will be more difficult to attract those people back to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENational members argued that if the time period that New Zealanders had to live offshore in order to get the benefit of the tax exemption could be reduced a bit, it might have greater effect in attracting New Zealanders back here. We all agree that those are the people whom we want back, first and foremost\u2014our own people who have gained the expertise, experience, and skills of having worked offshore. So it is a really important clause. How do we get those people back to New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think it is unfortunate that the Minister\u2014although he did listen to our arguments, and I certainly appreciate that\u2014was not prepared to accept our amendment to reduce from 10 years to 5 years the time period that New Zealanders would be required to be offshore to qualify for the tax exemption. It is interesting that a number of senior tax experts in New Zealand have commented similarly that the Government is missing a golden opportunity here. Having recognised the problem and seeking to address it, the Government is not really solving it by having that long 10-year period. I appreciate that the Minister has accepted that National may have some argument here, and he has given an undertaking that the 10-year period will be under review. That is something National members have achieved through this debate on the legislation. I take it that if the review shows that the 10-year period is too long and that the provision is not having the desired outcome, then the matter could be brought up again for further amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E That was the first issue. The second group of people that clause 77 seeks to attract to New Zealand is the new immigrant\u2014that high-value person who is attractive to a number of countries, particularly our competitor Australia across the Tasman. The provision proposed here is that a new migrant should be able to come to New Zealand and get the tax exemption for 48 months. That would apply to new immigrants coming to New Zealand after 1 April this year. National drew to the attention of the Committee the fact that Australia\u2014although it talked about enacting a very similar provision in recent years\u2014in February this year finally introduced legislation that is more flexible in respect of those new migrants. The Australian proposal includes those tax exemptions for temporary residents who have recently arrived in Australia. It is a measure that would help to keep them in Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAgain, tax specialists in New Zealand have pointed out that we have temporary residents here\u2014high-value people on work permits. Their employers may have to renegotiate to extend those work permits, and may be vulnerable to losing those high-value people because they will not qualify for the tax exemption, yet they would qualify if they were in Australia. In respect of new migrants, this issue of the competitiveness of our position in this legislation compared with Australia\u2019s position has not been assessed adequately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAgain, I accept that the Minister listened to the arguments of National members. We proposed to extend the provision to make it available to temporary residents or people in New Zealand on work permits who had arrived in New Zealand after 1 April 2005, rather than 1 April 2006. That would enable people who are resident here at the moment to obtain the benefit of the provision. But the Government did not agree with our amendment. We also sought to extend the tax exemption to 60 months, rather than 48 months, to make sure we are really competitive with Australia. Sadly, those amendments did not achieve the Government\u2019s support. I think this whole issue should be kept under review to make sure we remain competitive with Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EFinally, I express National\u2019s appreciation for Supplementary Order Paper 19, which the Minister, the Hon Peter Dunne, introduced last night to amend the legislation on unacceptable tax provisions. It has National\u2019s support. We argued strongly in the Finance and Expenditure Committee that the amendment must be brought in, because the way shortfall penalties have to be applied to unacceptable tax positions is simply damaging the goodwill of taxpayers. It is totally irrational and unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOur remaining concern about the amendment is that it leaves a lot of discretion to the Commissioner of Inland Revenue. We would prefer to see a measure that made it automatic that someone who, having been advised of an error in a tax position, then paid the correct amount of tax by the due date faced absolutely no risk of being penalised. Despite those misgivings, National does support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00222765a1f89842490f8beb43e5c26d8aef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222765a1f89842490f8beb43e5c26d8aef\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague the Minister of Revenue has covered the main part of the bill. I want to concentrate on the two Supplementary Order Papers that were in my name and in the name of my party, New Zealand First, in respect of the racing industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIn essence, this is a red-letter day for all three sections of the racing industry in this country. The Supplementary Order Papers set out to change the taxation regime from a headline rate of 20 percent down to 4 percent for racing\u2014the same rate as for casinos. Racing is, of course, New Zealand - owned, while most casino ownership is foreign. How this situation has lasted so long is beyond me, but we are about to rectify it, and, hopefully, by 1 o\u2019clock on Monday the Governor-General will have signed off this legislation and it will be a fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe second thing we set out to do was to provide a fair, internationally competitive depreciation regime for New Zealand stallions down from 4 years to 2 years. There is a different regime for mares so that a horse starting at age 3 will be totally depreciated by age 8, and a mare starting at age 8 will be totally depreciated by age 9. That is dramatically different from the current law and is internationally competitive. Alongside that, we have other plans, but they do not require a statutory framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI thank the racing industry, the thoroughbred industry, the harness industry, and the greyhound industry in respect of the changes that they have argued for over a long, long time and that are now to become a reality. It is a pity that my colleague Keith Locke mentioned the length of time that the Security and Intelligence Committee sat for. He does not seem to understand that it is not the time spent that matters but what is done during that time. We have set out to change the shape of racing in this country in order to make the industry far more competitive and to give it a fair go, which is something it has requested for a long, long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt is great to be able to tell people going home tonight in drive time traffic who have been concerned about the unfair treatment that this industry has received that it can now confront the United States, the UK, Ireland, Australia, Hong Kong, Singapore, and the Middle East with a new regime that will make us competitive for the first time in a very long time. I thank my colleagues in New Zealand First who have supported this policy for so long and who have made it\u2014alongside our supply and confidence arrangement with the Government\u2014a reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002236442ea79cbf453e88352d9b17987732\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236442ea79cbf453e88352d9b17987732\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E It appears that the time of the previous speaker, Winston Peters, has expired, so I will take over in his footsteps. On behalf of the National Party I rise in this third reading debate to support the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E I start with the point that the bill contains certain measures that are supportive to business. The National Party clearly supports those measures and the attempts to make depreciation rates more realistic, as they apply to the modern economy. This measure was trumpeted by the Labour Party in the last Budget as heralding a great success for businesses around New Zealand, and it was said that New Zealand should be rejoicing because somehow Budget 2005 was business-friendly. When one looks at Budget 2005, one probably reflects on the fact that it was a Budget in the proportions of about $4 billion a year. It was a massive spend-up that was followed by a Labour give-away programme, as we moved towards the election campaign. No doubt the Government will argue that that is the reason it has very little money available this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt was interesting that the business tax cuts that were delivered\u2014we will talk about those in a minute\u2014were paid for by the introduction of yet another tax. It is the Michael Cullen philosophy of taxation for all New Zealanders: when he gives with the left hand, he takes with the right hand. Theoretically, on the one hand he was giving businesses something, but, on the other hand, he was taking, and that was the $360 million tax grab in relation to a carbon tax that was, frankly, a \u201CNew Zealand experiment\u201D, as the Guardian newspaper described it. Lo and behold, Michael Cullen had to come before the Finance and Expenditure Committee a few weeks ago with his tail between his legs, and forlornly tell the committee that he did not have the numbers to get that bill through the House. So he was forced to make a rapid retreat from his carbon tax\u2014and that was a wonderful idea. The National Party, as members may remember, had already launched its \u201CAxe the carbon tax\u201D campaign, and we were delighted when the carbon tax was removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe point I make is that as soon as he got the words out of his mouth\u2014that he was axing the carbon tax\u2014he went on the hunt, as Minister of Finance, for another $360 million to make up the shortfall. Lo and behold, we learnt that tax threshold adjustments would not be introduced. That was the threat, at least, from Michael Cullen\u2014that the tax threshold adjustments that were going to take place\u2014the infamous chewing gum in the \u201Cchewing gum Budget\u201D\u2014would not occur in 2008, because despite the fact that the Government was predicting that it would run somewhere between a $3 billion and $5 billion surplus around that time, there was not enough money. I think New Zealanders find that quite remarkable, and it really does not bode well for the infamous business tax review that is taking place at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe infamous business tax review was pitched in the same way as the supposed infamous, deep, dark secret in Budget 2005. The infamous business tax review was sold and pitched in such a way that businesses were led to believe that it would be good for them, and that, like at Christmas, there would be a present neatly tucked under the bottom of the tree. What they did not know was that Michael Cullen was back to his old tricks of fiscal neutrality, and that if he was going to give with one hand he would need to take with the other\u2014and the other would come in the form of a payroll tax. That is what is coming down the line for businesses in New Zealand under a Michael Cullen \u2013 Labour-led Government. That is the bad news. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBut should businesses be rejoicing because of the passing of the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill tonight? Well, they should probably be grateful for small mercies, because goodness knows that under Labour they do not get a lot of small mercies. But, really, businesses should be far from rejoicing, because the bill effectively says: \u201CWe are going to increase the write-off rate\u2014the depreciation rate\u2014for things like laptops.\u201D A laptop can be written off at something like 40 percent in year one. I ask, in all seriousness, whether any New Zealand business thinks it can buy a laptop and sell it 6 months later for anything more than about 60 percent of what it paid for it. I would be amazed if a business got 50 percent of what it paid for it. In fact, quite frankly, in the modern technological age I would be surprised if a business got anything for it. So for Michael Cullen to be trumpeting this as business-friendly was quite unbelievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EMembers may remember around Budget time\u2014I certainly do\u2014that we had a remarkable scenario whereby Michael Cullen was trumpeting this measure as a $1.5 billion return to business. What a business-friendly Government Labour was proclaiming itself to be! The only small problem came in this regard. During the Budget lock-up that occurred an hour before Budget 2005, we asked Treasury officials whether they could tell us what this missing $800 million was that was theoretically some reduction for business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022408939ccf4be44fca4b94b493fc40fed\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: What did they say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cae7f2c82374d46a411588884566289\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Their answer was that they did not know. Fifty-five minutes later, 2 minutes before we came back to the House, a Treasury official came scurrying in. He told me that he had discovered, as apparently Michael Cullen discovered literally weeks before the Budget\u2014and we all know Michael Cullen can blow a foo-foo valve at the least sort of aggravation, so one can only imagine that the walls were pretty blue when that discussion was finished\u2014that there was not an accrual process for the recognition of GST, and because the Government was changing the GST rate and aligning it with, I think, the fringe benefit tax (FBT) payment rate, that meant a movement from one income period to another. So as businesses moved over to that income period, they were, in effect, paying eleven-twelfths of their GST payable at that particular date. But because they were not paying that other one-twelfth for another 42 days, I think it was, Michael Cullen was claiming that that was a $800 million benefit to them, when, in fact, they were getting the use of money for 42 days. It was more trickery from the Minister of Finance\u2014similar to the trickery we saw on the student loan policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe saw Michael Cullen in the general debate today\u2014and I do not like to digress, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I know you like to keep these third reading debates tightly and narrowly constructed, but let me digress for a second. We saw Dr Cullen in the general debate today telling the House that somehow student loans would be even less expensive than the 18th calculation he has now received from Treasury. But he forgot to mention the $1.5 billion write-down to the New Zealand books\u2014the $1.5 billion write-off in assets that has occurred from that student loan policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo let me just say to business that National is supporting this bill. It is a breadcrumb, though, in a breadbasket. The actual loaf is gone; it has been long since toasted by the Labour Party\u2014as have so many of its Ministers in recent months. This bill is a crumb that has come off the bit of the crust that is left, and businesses should be grateful, because under Labour that is all they will see. But I do not think businesses should be doing cartwheels over it, in any shape or form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThere are some other interesting changes in relation to, for instance, the elimination of \u201Cnine to five\u201D leases. As a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I know we received a lot of submissions in relation to \u201Cnine to five\u201D leases. I quote a comment that came from KPMG in relation to the cancellation of those \u201Cone plus one plus one\u201D leases, or \u201Cnine to five\u201D leases as they are sometimes known. The comment was: \u201COfficials see these as FBT avoidance. Taxpayers see them as a means of reducing their overtaxation.\u201D That was a heated area of discussion for the committee, but it was an interesting point. Some of those taxpayers make the fair point that they are being charged FBT on a car park they are not using for any private expenditure, at all\u2014only for working time\u2014and that sounds a little bit crazy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E I want also to refer readers of this bill\u2014it is quite a long bill, so for insomniacs it will be a wonderful piece of information\u2014to the provisions around the subsidy for payroll agents. That is actually a very interesting and typical Labour Party response to taxation. It is a case of: \u201CDon\u2019t go out there and simplify the tax system, because that is a far too simple thing to do. Don\u2019t make tax simpler and easier to understand, with fewer compliance costs, but do pay for yet another bean counter, so that that bean counter can work out the mess that is going on behind the scenes.\u201D That is no way to be treating business in New Zealand, particularly small businesses, and particularly the small to medium enterprise sector, which dominates New Zealand\u2019s business face. They really should not be having to pay or get a subsidy for another accountant. They really should be getting a much more simplified, broad-based, low rate of taxation. I think that is really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ELastly, I want to mention the racing industry, if I may, for a moment. National\u2019s policy on racing was the right policy. New Zealand First is getting this legislation through only because that Government desperately needed New Zealand First. It was National\u2019s policy, and when I go on racetracks around the country, people say to me: \u201CThank you, National, for what you have done.\u201D, so we say: \u201CBest wishes and good luck with this legislation\u2014we are off to the races.\u201D National will be voting for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a132fcd5f3894b0187cc28abefd18bd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a132fcd5f3894b0187cc28abefd18bd6\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E After hearing an opinion like that, I think that someone is about to be scratched from the Opposition, no doubt. However, I have a few things to say, which are obviously in support of what has become colloquially known as the \u201CMay tax bill\u201D. Its formal name is the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Despite the public policy differences amongst members on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, as I have said earlier, there was a passable level of collegiality. We members of the select committee had different levels of experience and different war stories to tell about either our constituents or our personal interfaces with the revenue collection system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI point out something that must not go unmarked\u2014that over the period of 4 years, in excess of $1 billion will be restored to taxpayers via, let me say it, this taxation set of measures. I also remind the House that in the last 20 years this is probably the first heavy-duty attempt we have had at finessing or rationalising the fringe benefit tax regime. When the committee left those matters we could not finalise with the officials, it was heartening to know that the officials would go away, put unresolved matters in a business programme, and continue to look for better ways to make the regime more business-friendly or more compliance-friendly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI think this bill has attempted to do two additional things. Obviously, it is pro-business and pro - economic growth, and the depreciation changes are the largest contribution that the business world, or business owners\u2014taxpayers in a commercial sense\u2014will enjoy. As I have said, they will have in excess of $1 billion over 4 years. But there has been far too much scaremongering over the question of whether we are disappearing into some black hole\u2014something akin to Tasmania\u2014because the rest of Australia is taking us over. This tax bill actually provides incentives, and simplifies the process, for our people to come back home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOnce again, the officials said they would monitor the situation in relation to the 4-year holiday. We have heard from members of the Opposition that, recently, changes have been coming out of the Australian regime, and it is pleasing to note that the officials are conscious that we are in an inexorable contest with our friends in Australia as to whether we can retain, develop, and attract back to Aotearoa the diaspora. It is pleasing to see that although people are going over to Australia, others continue to come back home, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, we are seeing an attempt here to lessen the burden on those elements in the small-business community who find the whole tax regime either confounding or an unnecessary distraction. Whether they are in strugglers\u2019 gully or up on the summit looking at a vista of gold, they struggle with the ongoing hassles of dealing with the bureaucracy and ensuring that they are compliant with the tax regime. To that extent, although it is a relatively small amount of money, an important step is being taken in order to ensure that small-business owners have an opportunity to call upon the subsidised services of a payroll agent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThat, however, does place an ongoing obligation on those who implement the regime\u2014in particular, the Inland Revenue Department. Indeed, today we had the review of that department, and we were assured that it continues to believe that the centre of its creed is to be professional, and also to make it easier for those payers to be more conscious of their obligations or to facilitate their meeting. Of course, there are always mistakes and errors, and there are many reasons why those errors take place, but it was pleasing to see that the department will now have discretion to ensure that the full force of the penalties regime does not fall like a guillotine on the necks of a lot of long-suffering taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn closing, I say that the bill is business-friendly. It was useful to have the perspectives of all the select committee members. As I said earlier, although there are differing perspectives as to where tax rates should be, I think all of us felt that this legislation is a definite step in the right direction, and officials have gone away to do further work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00221b7ed8c8f47a43cd9cf67a2f02944ed3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b7ed8c8f47a43cd9cf67a2f02944ed3\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa i te Whare. You know, Mr Speaker, whenever I talk about tax to my constituents, their eyes start to glaze over, the shutters come crashing down, and before I can say \u201Cpayment alignment dates\u201D they are all asleep. But I know, as do my colleagues in the M\u0101ori Party, that every issue raised in Parliament is important to M\u0101ori, and that we as a caucus have a responsibility to give each issue the serious consideration it deserves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EDuring the passage of this bill, the M\u0101ori Party has raised a number of issues, including problems with compliance costs, the role that taxation plays in helping to drive local economies, and the need for a sustainable economic base. We have also raised the basic question of how taxation will impact on M\u0101ori throughout Aotearoa. Will it eradicate poverty, and how can we refocus our efforts to be more positive in our use of taxation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe note how easily our Government can make political decisions to improve the status of the poor in South Africa. In that regard, I am mindful of a comment made by Bishop Desmond Tutu, who said: \u201CIf everyone who wants to see an end to poverty, hunger, and suffering speaks out, then the noise will be deafening. Politicians will have to listen.\u201D Although the noise during question time can be painfully loud, a stronger and more enduring noise is needed if we are to be inspired to act swiftly and honourably in the interests of the people whose needs are far greater than our own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen the chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Committee spoke to this bill, he mentioned that tax breaks for those who want to bring finance into Aotearoa would be addressed. The M\u0101ori Party would add that it is probably even more important that we look to our own land and see how we may improve economic growth here, rather than look to overseas investment and the problems that it brings for M\u0101ori particularly, and for our nation as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFor example, the export revenue from M\u0101ori farms is about $800 million a year, but those farms still operate at a level that is only about 70 percent of the national average. It seems that some targeted tax relief in research and development and farm management could go a long way towards improving that return, yet this bill seems to be more focused on research and development tax relief for companies that are bringing in new investors. Again, perhaps we need to look closer to home in order to realise positive growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAnother area we could target for economic growth is marine farming. The M\u0101ori Party notes that the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Act was rushed through the House as a vote-getter, but not one new marine farm has been set up as a result of it. The potential for marine farming for M\u0101ori, and for the nation\u2019s economy, is huge, and I note that when the Act was launched last year the Hon Dover Samuels said it signalled new opportunities for M\u0101ori in the marine farming industry. So members can imagine how concerning it is to see, less than 9 months later, the same Dover Samuels report huge frustration amongst coastal M\u0101ori over the unworkability of the aquaculture legislation. The M\u0101ori Party is happy to back Dover Samuels\u2019 call that M\u0101ori marine farming be supported, and, as the member of Parliament for Te Tai Tokerau, I will do my best to see that the Government\u2019s decisions do not continue to deny M\u0101ori access to that industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E I note also Dover Samuels\u2019 comments yesterday that the Government\u2019s oceans policy was pie in the sky and would undermine economic development. The M\u0101ori Party will be watching to see what changes are made to legislation as a result of the advice of the Associate Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe all suffer the errors of flawed policy, and we must all take the steps necessary to address those flaws. Yesterday we saw the latest in a long line of Labour MPs trip over his sense of self-importance, but we acknowledge David Parker for recognising his mistakes and taking the appropriate action. His actions were similar to those we have seen in the M\u0101ori world, where those who do wrong are expected to front their people on their marae and receive the justice they deserve. It is a pity that we are losing touch with a justice that is as honest as it is simple. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAlthough I recognise the importance of the changes to the depreciation rules, I know that my constituents will not jump for joy or weep into their beers over them, for the simple reason that they really do not give a stuff. They are more worried about the rise in fuel prices and the impact of that on their wallets and on their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe applaud the Inland Revenue Department for agreeing to waive the penalties for people who make genuine mistakes in their tax returns\u2014and if the tax police can deal with flawed policy, then anyone can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI also note that the Inland Revenue Department has aligned the GST and provisional tax payment dates, to make it easier for those who pay business taxes. That decision will, I know, help M\u0101ori businesses greatly. They have often been affected by the tight payment schedules and the penalty clauses that kick in when they are late due to sickness of the wh\u0101nau, travel, medical costs, tangihanga, and the need to give koha at times that simply do not fit with Inland Revenue Department schedules. Although we oppose this bill, we support the initiatives to simplify the tax rules and to reduce the number of times people need to deal with the Inland Revenue Department, so that provision is a move in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI remind the House that although the Government receives $1.2 billion every year from the taxes on tobacco products, the real costs of smoking\u2014through smoking-related illnesses and the associated health care, through fire, property, life, and health insurance costs, through the cost of refurbishing homes, offices, cars, and workplaces to rid them of the stench of cigarette smoke, through passive smoking, through the loss of earnings of those in care and those who have died unnecessarily, and through the incalculable damage caused to wh\u0101nau throughout the nation, both P\u0101keh\u0101 and M\u0101ori\u2014make the tax take look downright miserable, by comparison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EProductivity and growth are not just about hourly output. I recall the comments of New Zealand Council of Trade Unions M\u0101ori vice-president Sharon Clair, who said that productivity need not be a negative perception if the benefits of productivity are shared. We need to enhance our potential in areas like marine farming and aquaculture, reduce development that exploits or puts at risk the health and well-being of our communities, and do all we can to achieve real progress for our children, for future generations, for the nation, and for our planet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI end my speech by paraphrasing the words of Dr Martin Luther King\u2014I hope I can do justice to them. As long as there is poverty, I can never be rich. As long as there is such illness amongst my people and their life expectancy is so wretchedly low, I can never myself be totally well. I can never be what I ought to be until my people are what they ought to be. That is the way my world is made, and such is the way I see it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u00229554819abc154e73837cead5d01941f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229554819abc154e73837cead5d01941f4\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the third reading of the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT\u2014[Interruption]\u2014it is a mouthful\u2014and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. In my opinion this is the first piece of legislation from the Labour - New Zealand First Government that goes some way to helping this country take a step forward and lift itself up the OECD rankings. It is the first piece of legislation in over 6 years to do so. Despite our having had the best set of economic circumstances in a generation, only now do we finally see a business-friendly piece of legislation enter this House, at the death knell of this Labour Government. As we are sitting in 21st place out of 30 OECD countries, one would think that a focus on policy likely to push up our standard of living would be welcomed. But, no, over the last 6 years we have seen a focus on income redistribution, social engineering, and increased bureaucracy. Yes, this is the first piece of legislation in over 6 years that will provide genuine benefits to business people and flow-on effects to employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ELet us be clear about this: business drives the economy. Without businesses we have no economy\u2014we have no ability to drive social services or to redistribute wealth. Yet what are business surveys currently saying? The New Zealand Institute of Economic Research quarterly survey shows that firms are the most pessimistic they have been since 1986. Seasonally adjusted, the result is worse\u2014firms are more despondent than they have been for 35 years, since 1970.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBusiness pessimism is not alone in condemning the current economic climate. We need to consider a few more hard facts and a few more warning signals. Interest rates have increased. In 2004-05 they were 6.83 percent; now they are 7.53 percent. The current account deficit back in 2004-05 was $8.7 billion; now it is $12.9 billion. Inflation has increased. In 2004-05 it was 2.7 percent; now it is 3.2 percent. Of most concern is the fact that the rate of economic growth is falling, and falling like a stone. Economic growth in 2004-05 was 4.3 percent; now it is just 2.7 percent. Next Friday the fourth-quarter growth statistics will be released. In the September quarter, growth was just 0.2 percent, and indications are that growth in the December quarter will be even worse. It could be zero or even negative. That means that the New Zealand economy has stalled for 6 months\u2014not a good sign for the months ahead. Economic growth has not only fallen like a stone; it has hit rock bottom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ESo this taxation legislation is long overdue. It is but one part of the recipe needed to put the economy back on the path towards higher achievement\u2014towards a place in the top half of the OECD rankings. The problem as I see it is that this legislation stands alone. As Mr Key pointed out, it is a breadcrumb. I see little other legislation waiting in the wings to help grow the economic position of this country. We urgently need clear direction in the areas of review of the Resource Management Act, investment in transmission and energy, transport infrastructure, research and development, further emphasis on taxation, and employment flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EFortunately, the country has some allies in the National Party. Already, despite being in Opposition, we have been able to place on the agenda legislation that will address some of this country\u2019s employment-related issues. Wayne Mapp\u2019s Employment Relations (Probationary Employment) Amendment Bill was successful in getting through the first reading stage, which is excellent. That legislation will give more people the opportunity to enter the workforce, will allow employers to take a risk, and will improve the productivity of this country\u2014so long may that continue! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EReturning to the bill before us, I will focus on two areas: firstly, depreciation and, secondly, tax exemptions for new migrants. While the bill deals with many other amendments to a variety of Acts, I believe that those are the two sets of measures that will contribute most to furthering the prosperity of this nation and helping us to move up the OECD ladder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EA number of changes to the tax depreciation rules have been introduced. Firstly, depreciation rates will be more closely aligned with the commercial reality of an asset\u2019s useful life. That is sensible and will further encourage investment in assets that help to make team members more productive, to increase efficiency and output per employee, and to lead to economic growth. Secondly, the low-value asset threshold will be changed from $200 to $500. That will allow companies to write off assets in the year of purchase up to the level of $500, which is a significant improvement on $200. Once again, this is a positive move that encourages investment in assets in order to make businesses more productive\u2014to increase the output per employee, and to increase efficiency and productivity. Both of those items are moves forward, and businesses will welcome them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EHowever, there is a surprise in waiting. That surprise is for building owners. While depreciation rates for many assets have been increased, depreciation rates for buildings have been reduced. Most submitters to the select committee did not support that move. They reasoned that the pace of change in technology and in consumer preferences means that the useful life of many buildings is in fact shorter than the 50 years on the table. I say that they are right. National members voiced their opposition in the select committee to that adjustment, but unfortunately it fell on deaf ears. This is an opportunity lost. Investment in buildings is one of the key drivers of the economy and of economic growth. Buildings house businesses; businesses drive economic growth. Any decision to discourage investment in that key resource sends the wrong signal and, to some extent, counteracts the positive signals sent by the changes to depreciation in the first part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThere is also a missed opportunity\u2014the opportunity to add a provision that allows depreciated assets to be fully and finally written off, written out of the asset register, once they reach a minimum threshold level. Under diminishing value, the asset can effectively remain on the books for years. Small-business owners do not have time to run around their businesses or resources to check every asset that is on their registers. So once that value goes below a certain level they need to be able to write the asset off, and to write it off legally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ELast night Dr Lockwood Smith put forward an amendment to introduce a $10 threshold. That was considered by the Minister of Revenue at the time, but was rejected at that point. Interestingly, the Rt Hon Winston Peters in the House last night, across the floor, accused us of being frugal with that request, by asking whether we were from Bosnia. We were in fact being fiscally responsible in our request, hoping to place on the table a realistic amendment to the legislation, and one that we could list in future years. It actually showed that we had thought about the fact. The Minister\u2014listen to this one\u2014went on to say that business owners should instead just write \u201Clost\u201D beside the asset in question. [Interruption] I suggest to Mr Woolerton that that is a dangerous recommendation to make\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e046bfded04e9ab7205efbde2409a9\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: From a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c5e0f0cb8346bc810d77cd2aa27e2d\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, from a Minister. I am sure that other parties in the House will not be recommending to business owners to write \u201Clost\u201D against items on their asset register. We would do better to write sensible law that prevents people from having to break the law, because the current law is just not practical in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIt was almost as bad as the faux pas Mr Peters made in referring to long-time New Zealand First supporter Sir Patrick Hogan as Frank Hogan\u2014not once, but on four separate occasions. I extend apologies to Sir Patrick. At least Mr Peters has picked up on the National Party racing policy and implemented it via the bill. I am satisfied that that was an excellent step forward for the racing fraternity. Rather than making policy on the hoof, I suggest that having a threshold write-off position for small businesses is a very good idea and one that should demand further attention from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe second matter I would like to address tonight is the positive steps the bill has made towards new migrants, and the encouragement for New Zealanders to come back to these fair shores. God only knows, we need to implement stronger policies to bring people back to New Zealand. We all know that the net outflow from this country has doubled in the last 3 years. For the year ended January 2004, 10,221 people left New Zealand; in 2005, 15,547 people left; and in the last 12 months 21,439 people exited the country. Last night I thought Opposition members, including Mr Shane Jones and given his extensive business background, would have known better. He shouted out that the answer to bringing people back to New Zealand was to lift the minimum wage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd017084968d4064b6b6f9f72019f2c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd017084968d4064b6b6f9f72019f2c7\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Tonight we are witnessing a unique event. We are seeing a tax bill proposed by Labour going through the House supported by National, and supported I might say by New Zealand First as well. During this debate we have heard a lot about the Supplementary Order Paper introduced by the Rt Hon Winston Peters, Minister for Racing, and we have had claims from National Party members that it is National Party policy. All I would say to the public of New Zealand is that if it really was National Party policy, I think I can say fairly that National has been in Government more often than New Zealand First, so how come National did not put it into legislation? How come the National Party did not put this racing policy into legislation? Because it was not National Party policy back then; that is why. The National Government was busy cutting this, cutting that, relying on the free market for everything, and the last thing it was interested in doing was aligning the racing industry with casinos, which New Zealand First has had to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EJust for the record, New Zealand First\u2019s racing policy was posted on its website on 18 July 2001, and that was some time before the National Party\u2019s racing policy. If National is going to swipe our policies, it should either implement them when it is in Government or shut up about them and get on with the business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has introduced a policy for the racing industry that will return $30 million to that industry. We are confident that it will be used well, that the racing industry finally understands that as well as being in the export industry and the breeding industry it is also in the entertainment industry. If the pages of the New Zealand Herald are anything to go by, where there are not many pictures of racehorses on carnival day, but a lot of pictures of beautiful women in very fashionable clothes, the industry has certainly come to grips with the idea that it is in the entertainment business, as well. But we are pleased to help the industry along, with the introduction of this legislation. It now lines them up fairly, for the first time for many years, with gambling and other types of gaming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe also make no bones about the fact that New Zealand First believes that the taxation system can, and should, be used by way of incentivising, and giving messages to industry. We have had no hesitation in saying that depreciation on brood mares and other stock in the thoroughbred industry should be speeded up so that it is more advantageous for those people to get into producing good mares, producing good breeding stock, and indeed exporting them, thus helping us with our chronic balance of payments deficit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is no surprise to anybody that through this taxation bill\u2014and I might say that the Finance and Expenditure Committee was ably chaired by Mr Shane Jones, and he is getting better and better every day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc3d5d0708b473f9d16baf80c24e108\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s the last up-and-coming star they\u2019ve got. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee300618e43448880fef2708d5d9dd8\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206ac11354b104f6a9ba04342542f8dd0\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It won\u2019t be long before he falls off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b7d22933674bf28870f3e43bf8113f\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. I said to him at the select committee\u2014and I hope I am not hauled before the Privileges Committee for letting out things that happened at the select committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e20a1410b7df465ba72f76341a8db75c\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I will give evidence on your behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abaf3f3be0db49f5ab088b6f82776135\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Carter. I said to Mr Jones that I was surprised to see him because, as he is one of the few last rising stars, I would have thought that today would be the day when he was plucked from amongst us and elevated to a higher position. But it was not to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c890b1c924a4fb3abd2bd66b2957428\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Still could happen. There\u2019s a couple of hours to go yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c0c006aec74845aa9f30f092eda5a2\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. The day is not over. He will just have to wait for another day. I am sure he is waiting, and I am sure he is looking forward to holding the office that everybody expects him to achieve one day. But it will be no surprise to anybody that during the debate and discussion on this bill we had calls for tax cuts by the National Party. All sorts of cunning little plans were laid out by the members on the National side of the table. They asked deep and piercing questions of all the submitters and the officials. As Blackadder would say: \u201CAny smarter and they could have pinned a tail on it.\u201D But those members were on about tax cuts. That is the new mantra in the National Party. It used to be that the free market will fix everything; now it is that tax cuts will fix everything, and they are still searching for the silver bullet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E There is no silver bullet\u2014\u201Cbullet\u201D might be the wrong word\u2014and we in New Zealand First are pleased to see that some aspects of depreciation are taken care of in this bill. We would urge this Labour-led Government to go further. As we go head to head with the industrialised nations of the world\u2014and we are talking about China, India, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, and all of those countries\u2014we will not compete with them on an hourly pay rate, that is for sure. We will not compete with them when it comes to mass production, that is for sure. We will have to compete with them in the areas in which we have some expertise, areas where we will have to use our brains, areas where we have a niche market, and they will be areas where the advantages we obtain for ourselves are very brief, very lucrative, and they will not be by means of mass labour. So the machines, the equipment, the scientific knowledge that is used in developing those sorts of products that will reward us with high income will have to have an increased rate of depreciation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI look forward to the day when we in this Parliament are looking at realistic rates of depreciation for machinery, and increased depreciation rates for all sorts of scientific endeavour. Rather than have tax cuts across the board, I believe that incentivised areas like that are the areas that we should be looking to. However, this bill goes some way towards that, and we applaud it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI must put on record that I am sorry for Lockwood Smith. Week after week on the select committee he would go on about his asset register and how he needed to drop those things off that were depreciated to a low level. As members heard, the previous speaker, Chris Tremain, said that that did not happen. It is sad, but the saddle, the bridle, and the whip that Lockwood Smith keeps in his shed will just have to stay on his asset register and have to be depreciated at the normal rate for some years yet to come. I cannot pretend to come to grips with the mathematical equations that Dr Lockwood Smith aspires to, but suffice to say that he tells me that the figure can never reach nought, at least in our lifetime, and I take his word for that. But depreciation is something that New Zealand First is all in favour of and we would like to see more of it. If there are to be any amendments to this bill in the future we look forward to depreciation being one of the main ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u00229462bfe4d3dc44d78f3f578feff5a117\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229462bfe4d3dc44d78f3f578feff5a117\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the third reading of the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. My apologies for the length of that title to those who may be listening to the radio at the moment. It has been a pleasure, and I congratulate all those who have progressed the bill this far. It is the second major bill that I have been involved in while I have been in this Parliament, and I have learnt a lot from some of the more seasoned hands on the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I reiterate the earlier comments that our chair did a pretty reasonable job, although I do wonder about the amount of patsy questions he seems to ask in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe National Party supports this bill. I personally support this bill, but it is not bold enough. Quite frankly, it does not go far enough, and I look forward to building upon it, using it as a platform for further and fundamental change, and fixing the New Zealand system under the next Don Brash - led Government, with Mr John Key as finance Minister. I look forward to being part of that action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThis 353-page bill is, allegedly, business-friendly. How 353 pages can simplify taxation law I am really not sure, to be honest. Essentially, it just tinkers with existing law, regulation, and our statutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EI would like to run through some of the key points that the bill addresses. The bill deals with depreciation rules and schedules, as the previous speaker just alluded to, and, in particular, changes the economic life frames of buildings and certain aircraft. It also changes the low-asset thresholds from $200 to $500. My party argued quite intensely on the committee that those thresholds should be higher as recognition of the investment that many companies are trying to make that add value to New Zealand, as opposed to forever worrying about the cost. The fiscal cost of going from $500 to $1,000 would be $400 million, I think Minister Cullen said the other night. Quite frankly, I think that is a very good investment to make in the New Zealand business scene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill also aligns the payment dates for provisional taxation and GST. On its own it is a minor business-friendly measure, but, tragically, that measure has been delayed from 1 April 2006 to 1 April 2007. It also provides for a subsidy for payroll agents. Mr John Key spoke to that earlier and did a very interesting take on it. Goodness gracious, after another 353 pages of taxation law more payroll agents will be employed all over the show, and it will probably be New Zealand\u2019s biggest growth industry over the next wee while. Again, tragically, the implementation and application of that measure has been changed from 1 April 2006 to 1 October 2006. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill also touches on the fringe benefit tax, particularly around flip-flop leases and 9 to 5 leases\u2014they have various names. We had an awful lot of submissions on that particular point of the bill. Personally, I found it fascinating that most of those submissions came out of Auckland for some reason. I do not know quite why that was, but it is a major deal there. However, I will be quite upfront and profess that I do not fully understand flip-flop leases and nine to five leases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill also starts to deal with corporate migration and the treatment of assets when a corporate is no longer essentially tax domiciled in New Zealand. OK, it is a fair enough step in the right direction, but I think we need to have the discussion and debate as to why those corporations are choosing to leave New Zealand in the first place. I think that as we speak we will see more and more of those corporates leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides tax exemption for new migrants and for people returning to New Zealand. The threshold is for them to have been 10 years away. Most New Zealanders leave in their early twenties, so after 10 years away they have spent over a third of their life overseas. They have established themselves, they have paid good tax overseas, and they have started to put down their roots. For an increasing number of New Zealanders, one really has to ask why they would return. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill also touches on foreign trusts, particularly in regard to reporting across the Tasman and the sharing of information. Again, I can see the logic behind it, and it is fair enough, but another debate that I believe we need to have in this House and across New Zealand is the increasing Australianisation of all things New Zealand and the de facto adoption by New Zealand of Australia\u2019s various laws and statutes. I point out that as we get more Australianised by the day, Australians are still not eating our apples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill also addresses trans-Tasman imputation credit streaming. It is a reflection of reality and starts to reflect some of the listings on the New Zealand Exchange, and the Australia equivalent, cross share ownership. It is a good move in the right direction, but a small one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThe bill also addresses reverse takeovers and, again, that is a small step in the right direction. Basically, it is recognition of the reality of international commercial life and of some of the cut and thrust of companies that are much, much larger than any of those we see in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAs the Minister of Revenue and as my colleague Lockwood Smith particularly spoke about earlier, the bill addresses what has been known as the unacceptable tax shortfall penalty, and a Supplementary Order Paper was tied up with that. National endorses the direction that that is trying to take tax regulation in New Zealand, but I think we have quite a long way to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EA few Supplementary Order Papers are linked up with this bill, and appear under it, on top of it, and inside of it. I will touch on one: Supplementary Order Paper 380, which has been and gone, surrounding the wine equalisation tax. I just raise the flag that what all of my sources say and everything I hear is that the implementation from the Australian side of that is actually becoming quite difficult. Quite frankly, the Australians are being Australians and are looking after Australia first. Perhaps there is a lesson there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EA Supplementary Order Paper sponsored by another member is very good and beneficial to our racing industry. Essentially it is a cut and paste of the earlier National Party policy, apart from a couple of key dates, and it is a good move in the right direction. I congratulate Mr Lindsay Tisch on the formulation of that policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut what is bold about this legislation? What is new? What will thrust New Zealand forward and help us at least to move from No. 21 in the OECD rankings? What will stop us from sliding down those rankings? What will raise the productivity of labour here\u2014and I definitely do not mean \u201CLabour\u201D, because I think that is pretty much a lost cause? What is needed? We must ask that question because bold and dynamic thought is needed and required. We hear from the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance lately about the \u201Ceconomic transformation\u201D required for New Zealand, yet they do not seem to be able to explain from what to what and how. They must stop tinkering around. It is interesting that this Government has surfed on the back of 6 years of fantastic economic growth but that it had very little part in formulating and starting it. We see from the headline in the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research consensus forecasts that a soft landing is settling in right now, so perhaps there will be some questions to Mr Cullen on the economy, as he was begging for today in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut why do we need this bold change? Well, quite frankly, at the moment the Inland Revenue Department is collecting about $42 billion in revenue out of a total of $60-odd billion of revenue in this economy every single year. Why do we need bold change? Because the dollar has been skyrocketing through the roof, and the damage has been done. There is a crippling cost of working capital for our industries because of the Government\u2019s \u201Cspend-athon\u201D and \u201Ctax-athon.\u201D Why do we need bold change? Because there are policies such as Working for Families that essentially create 102 percent marginal tax rates for some who are desperately trying to move off welfare. Why do we need bold change? Because over 600 New Zealanders are leaving for Australia every single week. What is the best that the Government can come up with as an alternative to that? We hear about the payroll tax, but the payroll tax\u2014it is nuts, by the way\u2014can be implemented only if it is fiscally neutral. Let us be bold, fiscally aggressive, and innovative. Boldness is what New Zealand needs. Why have the key planks of this business-friendly bill been delayed by 6 months for payroll tax and 12 months for GST? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EAs I conclude, I point out that these 360-odd pages need to be managed by the Inland Revenue Department. I would like to share with members a little something that I discovered in the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s statement of intent, because it may come as a surprise to some people. This is the desired future, according to the Inland Revenue Department, so listen carefully: \u201CTaxpayers and other customers meet obligations of their own accord\u2014and Inland Revenue makes this easy\u201D. The final goal states: \u201CThe community regards Inland Revenue as professional, approachable, effective and efficient.\u201D Well, I certainly hope so, but with all this new tax legislation I do wonder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022362b814524164b4f9913bc621ab3f8a5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290b70a0a1ac045c0900d93bfcfc62162\u0022\u003ETariff (Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3610f98f5e2492d8a56a82fef0fa460\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4750aa8f9ff46e08ff21f105357a449\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4750aa8f9ff46e08ff21f105357a449\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the Committee for the Committee stage of this bill to be taken as one debate across the five clauses, with one question at the end of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf0e4ba026a548aebfcccaf1785d7964\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that. Is there any objection? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d98d71d76ad4a41ad5dbff77b1bc982\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002280faa59411a64924831e85e6c758fb90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280faa59411a64924831e85e6c758fb90\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E We would normally focus on each of the clauses of the Tariff (Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership) Amendment Bill in the Committee stage consideration of the bill, and I think we should therefore give some scrutiny to the bill, even though we are taking it as one question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOf course, the title of this bill gives some understanding of the significance of the bill. The bill does not simply talk about a four-way free-trade agreement, it talks about a trans-Pacific strategic economic partnership. I think members of the Committee should be aware that this bill is actually of strategic significance. If we look at the detail of our trade with the particular parties that are involved in this trade agreement, namely Singapore, Brunei, and Chile, we see that we already have a free-trade agreement with Singapore, so there are no tariffs to be dealt with in respect of Singapore. In the year ended June 2004 we exported $36.6 million of goods to Chile and paid $2.2 million of import duties. In the same year we exported $3.5 million of goods to Brunei and the duties were estimated at $52,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo it is quite clear that this bill is not about saving New Zealand massive amounts of duty on huge quantities of products that we export to Chile and Brunei. As I say, we already have a free-trade agreement with Singapore. This bill is about strategic issues, which is captured in the title and, in fact, also in the purpose clause. It asks how New Zealand really has impact in the Asia-Pacific region on liberalising trade, because liberalising trade is of crucial importance to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat I think successive Governments\u2014because this concept commenced under the last National Government\u2014have decided is that we have to move in a strategic way that helps bring some real momentum, especially to APEC. Members will note that all four members, so far, of the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership Agreement are members of APEC. The whole idea is to establish a framework such as this that other APEC members in our region can join. If they want to get involved in this trade liberalisation effort this legislation provides for the Governor-General to add, by Order in Council, other countries to this strategic agreement. That is what is so important about it\u2014it is strategic. We started simply with that little trade agreement with Singapore, which built into this strategic development. I hope, as we look ahead, that other nations will see fit to join this agreement so that APEC members can move towards achievement of the goal of free and open trade, for at least the developed countries, by 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to make on this legislation is that it is unfortunate that New Zealand\u2019s undertaking in this agreement extends our own elimination of tariffs beyond our APEC commitment of free and open trade by 2010. There was absolutely no need for that. This Government could have agreed to New Zealand\u2019s phase-out of our tariffs. We set leadership in APEC to the effect that we would stick to our commitment to the Bogor goals of free and open trade. We could have had our framework here and got rid of tariffs for countries that join this strategic trade agreement by 2010. There is no reason why we could not have done that. It is a tragedy that the Labour Government has given a signal to the rest of APEC that it does not really care about the Bogor goals in APEC of free and open trade by saying in this agreement that it is prepared to allow tariffs to drag on here in New Zealand beyond 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Ruth Dyson, what sort of signal she thinks it sends when the tariff phase-out schedule has New Zealand going beyond our Bogor commitment when we could easily\u2014because it does not affect any other members of this strategic agreement, only New Zealand\u2014have said that we are prepared to stick to a phase-out by 2010. That would be totally consistent with the Bogor goals of APEC, New Zealand would be showing leadership, and the strategic value of the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership Agreement, which is what it is all about, would be so much greater. I would appreciate the Minister\u2019s response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00220471719f85114b4d9298d0a9f2b5475c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220471719f85114b4d9298d0a9f2b5475c\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a call on this bill and to say that I think the Committee has done a good thing in agreeing to have a wide debate across the whole bill. The bill is, after all, only five clauses, but it is a significant piece of legislation as the speaker before me, the Hon Lockwood Smith, has pointed out. The issues that he raised about strategic opportunity cannot be understated. I mentioned that the bill is only five clauses, but if we look at the commentary it is some 60 pages, which gives members some idea of the complexity and the issues that surround putting in place trade agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIn the National Party we believe very clearly that trade is a positive thing. It is the lifeblood of an international community and, if we want to continue to live in a world that has a peaceful outlook, I point out that it is when we start limiting opportunities through trade that we create the first opportunity for dissension, which can escalate into areas that we are not happy about. We are members of planet Earth, and we are particularly members of the Pacific. This bill points in two directions. It points into Latin America, with the strategic alliances with Chile\u2014the first free-trade agreement with a Latin American country that New Zealand will have had\u2014and it points to Asia, cementing in the importance of Asia that we see in the region and the significance of the opportunities for New Zealand. Trade is not a one-way ticket. It is beneficial to both parties. New Zealand is a trading nation. There is no other way to refer to us. We are a trading nation; we produce much more of many goods than we can possibly consume in New Zealand. So it is in our interests not only to create free-trade agreements but also, to pick up on the point made by the Hon Lockwood Smith, to show leadership and that we are encouraging other companies to knock down the barriers and increase opportunities, and we are all winners in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI alert the Minister in the chair, the Hon Ruth Dyson, to something that I would like an explanation on if she is able to. I see that the bill is to come into force on 1 May 2006. I wonder why we have chosen that commencement date. Quite often on these sorts of things we say that it will come into force after the Royal assent. This particular agreement is dependent on signatories. If we look at Appendix B, which refers to the date proposed for the binding treaty action, it states: \u201C\u2026 provided at least two signatories have ratified by that date.\u201D Can the Minister inform us whether that will have happened by 1 May, and why 1 May has been chosen as the date for commencement? I am not opposing it, but this is a significant issue. We in the National Party are keen to see this measure go ahead and if there is some reason why we are delaying until 1 May, I am not sure what signal that sends. Also, it is very hard to read what the House business is over the next short while. Although we are in the Committee stage and I would hope we will be through all stages well before 1 May, should something intervene I am not sure what the plan for the third reading is. If the Minister could take a call and respond to that I would be grateful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI again affirm the importance of this bill. It sets up a framework for dealing with strategic issues. New Zealand can only be a winner as we seek to improve trading relations with our strategic partners, both within APEC and the Pacific. This bill sets some very strong planks in place. Good work has been done in order to get to the table with Chile, Singapore, and Brunei Darussalam, to get us to an agreement and to have something that can be ratified. It requires us to affirm it by passing this bill, so I commend it to the Committee. The National Party stands solidly behind trade and the opportunities that presents, particularly in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u00228d19416172e94dae95741c472fe62934\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d19416172e94dae95741c472fe62934\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the previous speaker, Eric Roy, for his comments, and I also look forward to members of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee speaking on the bill because some of those questions could be answered by the members of the select committee, who realise that it was agreed at the beginning of this year that 1 May would be the day when the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership Agreement would be signed by the parties involved. That is why the select committee has been focused on getting the bill back to the House in a timely fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI point out that the commentary is actually only one paragraph long. The commentary on the national interest analysis is pages long, and that is what the previous speaker was talking about as being quite bulky. The national interest analysis was compiled after extensive consultation throughout New Zealand with parties interested in this particular agreement. Because the consultation was so good and held over a considerable period of time, the select committee that looked at the national interest analysis could deal with the bill so quickly. I thank the members of the committee for getting the bill back to the House in a timely fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAs we have said, the bill is about only two pages long. It amends the Tariff Act of 1988 to enable the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership Agreement to come into law. It is the final part of the complete agreement stage that we are now dealing with prior to the final signature. Once again I thank all the parties and members who were involved\u2014those who were involved with the national interest analysis, those who were involved with the consultation, those who made submissions to the select committee when we looked at that analysis, and the select committee members for working together across parties so satisfactorily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2858bd1351648a48ef5a740b80db901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2858bd1351648a48ef5a740b80db901\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party, as members probably know already, is critical of this bill. We are a bit like Lockwood Smith, we do not look at the Trans-Pacific Agreement in isolation, just in terms of what is happening to the four countries that are part of the agreement\u2014New Zealand, Singapore, Chile, and Brunei. As Lockwood Smith has rightfully said, it is seen as a strategic partnership that other countries can be added to, and that is what we are worried about. Lockwood Smith talked about free trade by 2010 for at least a number of players. As we know, countries like China are part of APEC. One of the Green Party\u2019s real concerns is that China will come into a free-trade agreement that includes New Zealand that will disadvantage so many New Zealand producers because it is not a level playing field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EEric Roy said that everybody wins. The realities in this world of trade and competition mean that not everyone does win, particularly when one is up against countries with lower wages. Chile\u2019s wages are a bit lower, but, of course, China\u2019s are a lot lower again. One of the arguments is that New Zealand will compete at the high end, and we might have to give away some of the products that are produced by cheap labour in China. The implication is that those products are lower quality and our producers will keep markets at the high end in both domestic and overseas markets. The only problem there is the way countries\u2014China, in particular\u2014are developing. They are putting in a greater technological infrastructure than we are at the high end. So if we rely on just high-end products, we will not necessarily succeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other problem with the bill\u2014particularly in the section on Chile\u2014is that it implies that if we remove the tariffs in Chile, then somehow the New Zealand producers will get more returns. But it does not necessarily work out that way. We know in New Zealand that when we have taken off tariffs, prices have dropped and we have got cheaper products. If the prices in Chile drop equivalent to the drop in tariff, then there is no extra money for the New Zealand exporter. It may mean that New Zealand can expand its volume of exports and gain that way, but there are no guarantees that just dropping tariffs leads to a good result for New Zealand exporters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other thing that comes through in the national interest analysis and other talk around the bill is that it is largely helping out our dairy companies\u2014and Fonterra within that. But one should be careful about identifying the interests of New Zealand with the interests of Fonterra. Fonterra is becoming a big player, and that is admittedly an advantage to New Zealand, to shareholders in New Zealand, and to dairy farmers, but it is getting involved in a lot of strategic partnerships. For example, it is involved with Nestl\u00E9, particularly in Latin America. Those partnerships do not necessarily use New Zealand as the originating source for milk product. We just do not know how that will go. It will not necessarily be totally in the interests of New Zealand. It is not the equivalent to America when they used to say: \u201CWhat\u2019s good for Ford is good for America.\u201D That was not necessarily true, and it is certainly not the same with Fonterra here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other problem when talking about competition\u2014as Lockwood Smith rightly said\u2014is that other countries will be added to the agreement. Looking at it in terms of those four countries, one might say that we have a reasonably competitive advantage in certain sectors, say, with Chile and Singapore, although Singapore is not so much a producing nation but rather a trading centre. As more countries are added\u2014and I mentioned the case of China, but even other countries in Latin America\u2014it could be disadvantageous to us. It will not necessarily go our way. We must realise that at the moment we have got a record $7 billion trade deficit. We are not necessarily a winner in the way that trade has evolved with New Zealand moving to drop all our barriers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002264efe6741dcf4642860d78bc4f6f8aaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264efe6741dcf4642860d78bc4f6f8aaa\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the bill. It is a Government bill, yet it fits well with National Party policy so it deserves our support. Once passed into law, the bill will enable the conferral of preferential tariffs in accordance with the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership Agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EI was saddened to listen to the previous speaker, as he\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b59770782114186a77e3c06a1e48ca9\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d have thought you\u2019d have been delighted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3f44498281b432da23b82fc74b9f76e\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, delighted if the member likes, but it would have been nice to hear a more enthusiastic, encouraging response from someone who has already been on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee and who has been party to the discussions. That speech seemed to lack any resilience or hope. Goodness me! Trade does not have to be ugly. Trade does not have to be evil. New Zealand will not get far in the world if we seek perpetually to be sheltered all the time. From my 20 years of exporting experience, I know that New Zealanders are actually very good at exporting. Unfortunately, I believe that only about 4 percent of our country\u2019s companies are involved in exporting. I say to Mr Locke that the saddening bit for me was that I do not think that anyone would be encouraged to try exporting, after listening to his cautious approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EOnce passed into law, the bill will enable the conferral of preferential tariffs in accordance with the partnership agreement. I found an excellent consequence of the purpose and an excellent outcome to the bill in the explained advantages to New Zealand. There will be an immediate elimination of the 6 percent tariff on coal. I am delighted to find that, and even more enthused than I would otherwise be, owing to my living on the West Coast of the South Island and having a caucus responsibility as associate spokesperson on energy (mining). Ten days ago I was a participant in the induction safety course at Solid Energy\u2019s Spring Creek Mine on the West Coast. The safety aspect of the occasion was not without significance, as there had been a recent tragic mining accident in a mine close by. Mining is an old profession, and miners have special expressions to describe their work. They talk of \u201Cwinning\u201D the coal\u2014they \u201Cwin\u201D it. The bill will enhance the return for coal sent to Chile, and could well result in additional export sales. The cost of coal is the cost of extraction. The free trade bill will enhance the efforts of those who bravely work underground to win wealth for our country, often at expense to themselves personally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EBeyond the elimination of the tariff on coal, there are other advantages in the bill. Free trade is a benefit to all, in that it reduces a huge amount of tedious detail that otherwise clutters international trade. It makes it very complex indeed, I say to Mr Roy. During my period of exporting into the Pacific, I remember going to Tahiti on one occasion. The people there listed the tariffs, duties, and costs associated with importing our splendid UHT milk, which was actually not Fonterra milk but Dairy Board milk in those days. I do not agree with Mr Locke\u2019s concerns over the dairy industry. We do that very well, too. But to reduce the clutter involved in the transaction of goods can only be good for New Zealand and for the other party. Free trade is free, and it is free from complications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EIt is fitting that I stand to support the bill in conjunction with my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, as both of us at one stage worked together in the dairy industry and we were both involved in exporting to various parts of the world. The Opposition side of the House is well equipped with people who have been involved in exporting and in primary production. Speaking for all of the people who have that experience, we commend the bill and the way it has been put together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002265aaf7e4bbfe40559a2fb1767bb0593e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265aaf7e4bbfe40559a2fb1767bb0593e\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the bill, despite the fact that it has cost a huge amount of money to negotiate and is really going to deliver very little benefit, other than possibly strategic benefit, to our community. I have calculated from the national interest statement that there will be less than a 40c return per capita each year from this huge effort. Furthermore, unlike the West Coast, where the coal industry will benefit, my people in the Wairarapa who produce wine and timber products will be exposed to greater competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I am particularly interested in the title of the bill: the Tariff (Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership) Amendment Bill. The interesting thing is that it does not include any Pacific Island nations. We need to deepen cooperation and integration with our Pacific Island countries, and to establish where they and we might gain most through pooling Government resources, aligning our policies, and allowing our Pacific Island countries to come into our trading arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E This sort of endeavour may take us well beyond current levels of regional cooperation and into a new phase of regional integration\u2014a Pacific union, perhaps, at this time of unknown dimension. We need to transform our Pacific into a dynamic and progressive region capable of meeting the challenges of modernity, and we need to do this by creating wealth through free trade. We may not have a common trade and economic base in the way that Europe has, nor do we have the same historic context. We are not as compact as the Caribbean, either. But as Pacific Island communities we do share certain values, which have an important bearing on the way our societies operate and the way we interact with one another when we do interact. We share the world\u2019s biggest ocean\u2014which covers a third of the Earth\u2019s surface\u2014under international law, and through our exclusive economic zones. The forum region has stewardship of the living and non-living resources of the Pacific Ocean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI think we have a similar outlook across our Pacific Island nations, we have strong cultural values that we share, and we have strong cultural links to the ocean and the land. I think that there is huge scope for expanding this agreement to include our island people. In the past, we have never allowed existing conditions and restrictions to stop us from dreaming or seeking out new horizons. Otherwise, we would never have populated the place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EIn terms of a real trans-Pacific agreement, I think we could look at the European Union, which started on a limited scale through small cooperation before moving to deeper integration. I think that Australia and New Zealand also began the process of closer economic relations by developing free trade in goods. Then we moved to free trade in services, and then to a more thorough process of harmonisation and joint activity. It was the second series of steps that gave the trans-Tasman relationship its extra dimensions. I know there are a range of views about just how close and how integrated the relationship should be, but the point is that few predicted 30 years ago where we would be today. I think we need to think about this and that the time has come to take the first step and to give serious consideration to broadening this agreement to include our Pacific Island neighbours. I am particularly pleased to note that the amendment proposed to section 7 of the principal Act will allow us to do this with relative ease. National supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u00223abcf4feb30f48f1995fa52bc5fedc4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223abcf4feb30f48f1995fa52bc5fedc4b\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise also to support the bill. The mood in the Committee tonight is understandably a little lethargic, but I would suggest that that is actually something that, from a broader perspective, we should welcome, because it just reflects the fact that there is broad consensus politically. It is not complete consensus\u2014we have heard the Green Party\u2019s view once again\u2014but it is very broad consensus in New Zealand society on the bill and on the principles and philosophy that underlie it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI am sure that many members, at least of my generation, will know that had we had this debate, which envisages comprehensive free trade into New Zealand, 25 years ago, we would have had anything but a lethargic debate. In fact, it would have been a very bitter debate and we might well have found, once again, the two main parties agreeing with each other, but for precisely the opposite reasons for which we stand here tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI am new to Parliament, and I was a little surprised when I got to work this morning to find a message from the whips saying that I was expected to speak on the Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership Agreement. I thought that maybe they had the date wrong, because I gave a speech last night. I thought: \u201CWell, I have two options.\u201D One ignores the whip at one\u2019s peril, of course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac11b8b49d945e08c145fd271e7b824\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A terrifying whip.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9b4ed0a52945be83e0d23154ae89fd\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, a terrifying whip. One option was to give the same speech, which would bore everybody, but, most important, would bore my own self, to death. The other option was to try to find a new twist to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI have been provoked. I have just received an anonymous note. I know where it comes from\u2014it is not from my side of the Chamber. It states: \u201CAre you going to subject us to heavy foreign policy thinkers every Wednesday night?\u201D. So I have been provoked into that, and if this brief analysis is a little abstract or a little pointy-headed, that is my justification\u2014I have been provoked into this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI talked about the strategy last night. Tonight I want to talk about the political and economic theory behind the strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b94c70d85511413cae5aeba6775f3617\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228281db96cd90422fa51805f69fa86891\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014I have been provoked. The first thing to recognise is that these agreements\u2014there are some 300-plus around the world\u2014are actually a relatively modern phenomenon. If we go back to 1980, we find that essentially there was only one important agreement of this type, and it was the European Union. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand and Australia had another deeply flawed agreement, the New Zealand - Australia Free Trade Agreement, which I talked about last night, but that type of agreement was not the weapon of choice as it is today. The reason for that is that all countries, and, most important, the United States, were firmly wedded to the theory that the multilateral option was the best way. There were two underlying principles of political economy behind that calculation, which are quite valid, in fact. One was the economic theory of trade diversion, and the other was the political theory of discrimination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EOf course, New Zealand, as a very small country, would always want to source its imports from the lowest-cost source, which is the issue of trade diversion. And as a small country with very little political leverage internationally, we would also be very concerned about this type of mechanism in terms of discrimination, because if we were not invited to the party we might not be invited to dance. But in the 1980s that changed abruptly when the United States, sick of the lack of progress in the multilateral arena, said it would no longer refuse to enter into bilateral agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe process has accelerated from there, and, in the meantime, the European Union, which in its original form I would categorise as having been the most pernicious of all of those agreements, is in the process of radically reforming itself into a much more multilateral-friendly policy instrument. When we look at the original community, we see that it was a political vision inspired by those two great thinkers Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman, who wanted to stop the European tribal wars, which had involved this country. We paid twice for those tribal wars. We paid in blood in 1914 and in 1939, and then we paid afterwards in terms of our trade. Although special arrangements were made for New Zealand, they were vastly inadequate to protect us from the flaws in an agreement of that type\u2014admittedly, a customs union but not a free-trade area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have moved in the last 15 years towards somewhat better alternatives. The bill is an example of those, and we very much support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1abe315e9f24057b8623f26c4089e1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1abe315e9f24057b8623f26c4089e1e\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I was totally enthralled by my colleague Tim Groser\u2019s comments. We are indeed fortunate to have in the House one of the foremost negotiators in the world, not just from New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f860ea96c5114425bf7e7d214441d2e4\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Stop crawling, Eric. That won\u2019t get you into Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a57a67c8e4e4806b5ffaf5acfead073\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I know the member is interested. I can see that he has woken up. I would encourage him to take another call and continue from where he was interrupted by the bell. For myself, I am happy for us to get on with this. But I was somewhat incensed, I guess, or challenged, by the comments made by the Green Party member Mr Locke. I took the liberty of reading the Green Party minority report. I assume he wrote it; it is somewhat anonymous. Is this his?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e901f857b11b486391c324aad257ee4f\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I was a member of the committee and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d127f45da71a4c0ba25bb3df017d6fc4\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his confirmation. I know he is a pacifist, but if he were ever in the army, someone would say: \u201CWhy isn\u2019t everybody marching in step with Mr Locke?\u201D, because I am sure he would be out of step with the rest of the battalion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIn the Green Party minority report, Mr Locke says he believes that the Government has not demonstrated an overall benefit to New Zealand. Yet everybody else on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee identifies a huge number of benefits, some direct and some indirect. The first objective on page 7 of the agreement states: \u201CA fundamental objective of New Zealand\u2019s trade policy is to expand the opportunities available to New Zealand by removing barriers \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E If we are to thrive as a community, then we have to get rid of barriers. Barriers can apply in all sorts of forms. The most visible way is by tariffs, where a country we want to access puts on a cost. In this particular case, Chile is identified as having a 6 percent tariff on almost everything. That is nowhere nearly as prohibitive as in a lot of other places. Some of our Asian trading partners have 30 percent tariffs, and that is a significant barrier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EBut why would we want to prevent trade? I would like the member to take another call and tell me why. Why would he not want New Zealand to have an opportunity? The member said words to the effect\u2014I do not want to take it out of context\u2014that we have a problem with countries that have a wage structure lower than ours. That is the point he made. Several questions can be raised about that. Why do we have a problem? With wage structure normally goes technology, and we have some significant advantages in the area of technology. My question to someone as altruistic as Mr Locke is to ask: why lock in people who are in a low-wage structure so that they stay in a low-wage structure, by preventing them from partaking in trade? I want him to take a call and explain that, because to me it makes no sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIn terms of a country where workers are in sweatshops, National members are saying they would like those workers to enjoy some of the market opportunity in our country, but Mr Locke is saying that those workers cannot do that because their wage structure is lower than ours. I am saying the workers should do that and we should invite them to come in. We want them to grow their opportunities for several reasons. Firstly, we do not like where they are at. Secondly, when we grow them by sharing trade, they will become wealthy and they will become a market for us. So we gain and they gain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThat is what knocking down barriers is about. It is clearly spelt out in the report\u2014in all parts of it, apart from the minority report\u2014that we need to engage with our neighbours. This period that we are in now, the last half of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st century, is the longest period of global peace for four centuries. Yes, there have been skirmishes around the world, but in reality that is what is happening. Globally, that is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002242439d5bef6341a293cdf8a45947f53f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242439d5bef6341a293cdf8a45947f53f\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9ecc3214b494895ab64e1022c5f8216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9ecc3214b494895ab64e1022c5f8216\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have been challenged to answer a few questions, so I thought I should take the call. It is not often that one is the centre of the debate in this way and I welcome the serious questions that have been asked. Of course, the Greens are for good trade opportunities and for giving poorer countries the opportunity to trade. The member presents the Green position as being somehow very far out of step, but I outline arguments that, as Tim Groser rightly put it, were popular a few years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI am not saying necessarily that all the arguments the National Party and Labour Party argued in the 1970s or early 1980s\u2014if that is what Mr Groser was referring to\u2014were correct, but there was quite a consensus then that we could have trade, expanded trade, and expanding trade, alongside a level of tariffs. The level of tariffs would be set to suit one\u2019s own society and it would take into account relative advantage and disadvantage with other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the factors for relative disadvantage is the lower wage rates in other countries. In China, of course, wages are much lower than in New Zealand, so a certain tariff imposed on products from China does not necessarily stop an expansion of trade from China to New Zealand, particularly as that country becomes more efficient in producing its products, as it has done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the problems is that if tariffs are dropped too rapidly or major free-trade agreements are entered into, one starts hollowing out one\u2019s manufacturing base. That has happened in New Zealand and it is one of the reasons why we have a record $7 billion trade deficit. It is why many good New Zealand clothing companies and leisure product companies are now sending their production to China. We are hollowing out our skills base in manufacturing, particularly in the clothing, textile, and footwear industries. So our great fashion designers, who are major exporters to the world now\u2014not necessarily in dollar terms yet, but they are exporting significantly for a growing industry\u2014sometimes cannot find the skilled people who would have been available years ago to sew up their clothes in the way they would like. The skills base has dropped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat is all that the Greens are arguing. It is not a particularly radical position. In some ways it is a conservative position, to go back to Tim Groser\u2019s analysis. Rather than having an ideological position\u2014that is, the free-trade position, where we just wipe the tariffs and everything will be all right and everyone will be winners\u2014our position is a practical one that looks at what can expand our trade and the trade of countries like China in a way that suits the interests of both countries. That is all we are proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec3a25f044d84f31a911ce2f4f9016ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec3a25f044d84f31a911ce2f4f9016ac\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take up this debate exactly where Keith Locke has left off, and remind him of a couple of facts. In the mid-1980s a Labour Government wiped the support around the agriculture industry in New Zealand. It was tough, but New Zealand agriculture is many times stronger today because of that. In the mid-1980s the tariff protecting the wine industry in New Zealand was eliminated. The 40 percent tariff was just wiped, and New Zealand wine producers had to compete internationally, and we can look at where New Zealand wine producers are today. They now command, in London, the highest average price of any country that produces wines in the world. That is because when a country is no longer competing on the cheapness of the labour supply, and when that country goes to the top of the market, there is far more profit and future development. I say to Keith Locke that he should open his eyes about what trade liberalisation does for countries. I hear Japan arguing the sort of arguments he is making in relation to why it protects rice. Of course, the economic consequences of that are equally as bad for Japan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI come to the issue that I put to the Minister earlier on in this debate. This is a strategic agreement, and because of that it is important for APEC that it is a model agreement and shows leadership. My question, not answered by the Minister, asks why, when it is such an important strategic agreement, New Zealand has chosen\u2014and this is totally New Zealand\u2019s choice\u2014to have our phase-out for the removal of our tariffs for products coming into New Zealand from Chile and Brunei extended beyond 2010.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ENew Zealand had made what I believed was a good-faith commitment to the other members of APEC that we, as a developed member of APEC\u2014unless under Michael Cullen\u2019s stewardship as treasurer New Zealand has slipped from being a developed member of APEC\u2014would have free and open trade by 2010. I know that the Labour Government is negotiating the Thai free-trade agreement\u2014or closer economic partnership, as I think it is called. In that agreement, New Zealand\u2019s schedule for eliminating tariffs has been kept beyond 2010, but why has that been done in this important strategic agreement? There is absolutely no need to do that. Why did New Zealand not show leadership on making sure that the schedule for the elimination of our tariffs complied with our commitments? I thought this was a serious commitment\u2014it was when I was the Minister for International Trade. If New Zealand has abandoned that commitment, there is no hope of APEC ever achieving free and open trade, because we are one of the leaders on trade liberalisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E I would appreciate the Hon Lianne Dalziel, the Minister in the chair\u2014if she understands what I am talking about\u2014telling the Committee whether that is so, because we deserve to know. If New Zealand is breaching a major commitment, like our commitment to the goals of the Bogor declaration of APEC, we should know why the Government has chosen to do that. I would appreciate Government members getting on their hind feet and telling us, because it must have been a conscious decision by the Government. Why did it not make sure that the phase-out schedule was completed by 2010? Why did it allow the schedule to go beyond that and breach our commitment in an agreement like this that is strategic, that shows leadership, and that is meant to bring some real life to the trade liberalisation process and APEC\u2014why has New Zealand chickened out? We should know why, and we deserve to know why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair is doing her best to ignore everything I am saying, and she is taking absolutely no notice of the debate. I suspect that is because the Minister in the chair knows absolutely nothing about this legislation and nothing about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ebd282873245e79c2d6b4a1137fed5\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It is just personal. She does not like you much. We\u2019ll listen to the next speaker\u2014you\u2019re an old man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c62dac9d0a51475694681ed6622042f7\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am relaxed about that. The junior whip reckons it is personal and she does not like me. If she does not like me, that is no problem, but she owes this Parliament and New Zealand an explanation as to why New Zealand is abandoning its commitments to those Bogor goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242acccb79cd94dcabd1fb1b003f9155a\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: We haven\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e81e4b7676402e8e4efbd9791f71a9\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, can she explain to me why tariffs under this legislation will continue beyond 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235049c1e98e24c03ab66bb55fc3d160b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: We haven\u2019t decided that yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c47a91e1e140488c0c418dbe0b4ce2\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the information from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade itself pointed out that for certain phase-outs, tariffs will continue beyond 2010.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4da78df54014dc0a081f43671bc6c23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4da78df54014dc0a081f43671bc6c23\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I was unaware, until recently of course, that there was a brand new procedure when we moved into the Committee stage whereby one could take a second call\u2014I am like a kid with a new toy. I was explaining before that I was goaded into making a presentation on the strategy and on the intellectual foundations of the theory behind the strategy. When I saw Michael Cullen come into the Chamber, a distinguished New Zealand economic historian, I was goaded for the second time to want to take the floor and carry on in that theme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn respect of the first of the landmark departures from the multilateral process, the European Union used a customs union rather than a free-trade area approach. The European Union set the whole strategic concept off on the wrong footing from the very start, for precisely the reason that it incorporated the concept of the community preference as the very foundation stone of the European Union. If one goes back to the mid-1980s, the period when Margaret Thatcher would arrive in Europe waving her handbag and demanding her money back\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4a2423bb7145bab9ce5569f96d7cb5\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why don\u2019t you ask for your handbag back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022182afa75fe134a738ae6050cd2cd303f\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I never ask for my handbag back. I am quite comfortable in the space I am in, actually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EOne must remember that in the mid-1980s the European Union was not much more than a shonky system of agricultural subsidies. Approximately 70 percent of the entire budget for the European Commission was spent on agricultural subsidies. I recall very well that at that point the Europeans would ask people like me what else we could expect, and say the subsidies were the glue that kept Europe together. In a sense, they were correct. Twenty years ago that was all that the European Union was. It depended entirely upon a shonky system of agricultural subsidies to hold together a fledgling European Union. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe main point is that it has moved on from that point. From about 1988 and 1989, when the European Union moved into the European economic space, when it came across the concept of the single economic market, and when it adopted the euro and put aside the German mark and the French franc\u2014monetary instruments that had stood for 1,000 years or more\u2014it was in a position to move forward with the economic agenda in a far more comprehensive way than previously. Therefore, it was not nearly as dependent on what I said before was \u201Ca shonky system of agricultural subsidies\u201D. The reform of the Common Agricultural Policy, which was initiated in its first serious form by Fritz Gundelach and followed through by a series of commissioners subsequently, was, in fact, made possible by those broader shifts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo now we are now seeing\u2014and this is a very important strategic function of agreements of this type\u2014the most important agreement of them all, the European Union, return to its original political origins, which were to be an instrument for peace and democracy. As the union spreads from the original six, to nine, 12, 15, and now to 25 members, I see that as being a very positive force for New Zealand. I think we will see in the future an environment that will suit New Zealand\u2019s interests, both politically and culturally\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273df486681bc44c1a6df729756d36ed5\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Take another call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed5b82d7884542179f935e573e58c9be\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: I am being encouraged to take yet another call, which I will certainly try to get away with. The future that lies ahead of us, in terms of our relationship with the European Union, will be a very much happier one than it was in the past quarter of a century. What does that mean for the whole concept of free-trade areas and customs unions? Well, I wish to run the clock down here, so I will try to be as extensive as I can. The main point is that the United States started to shift its policy into those reciprocal free-trade agreements and closer economic partnerships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI have a small problem with the term \u201Ccloser economic partnership\u201D; it is a Labour concept that is politically correct. We are not allowed to have wives\u2014we have partners\u2014so we are not allowed to have free-trade areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9fe0a8a21ef4770bf1dd16cff42306f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what the member\u2019s biography states.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c56d0c5073f34a38a1e8265866da586e\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: I have specialised a little in that area myself, and I think one or two Government members have not been far from me in it. The point is that there is a substantive point behind the term \u201Cpartnership\u201D. It is not just about frontier policies that we are trying to harmonise and move forward together; it is also about a series of policies that lie behind the frontier. The new-model trade agreements\u2014and this is a reasonably good example of one\u2014are very well suited to exploiting further advantage from those economic cooperation agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00222e68d0577b28484581abb3b9ee0a292f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e68d0577b28484581abb3b9ee0a292f\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d49cccdebb74796bf1dac0fa1884c26\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 1 to 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000723\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229eb0cadd15c24815abafd8af81af2bb5\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022431d5a4f6b7042de827b274e5b78a94a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000726\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 21 March.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227eda69a98f5d484e9ccbf0e9cea85e34\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022749e8e96092b4d70a6dd84083d1e1c7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022749e8e96092b4d70a6dd84083d1e1c7e\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is a continuation of an important debate on the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2). I start by observing that one of the things the Government has done, in what I regard as an overly sneaky gesture, is to issue instructions to parliamentary counsel so there are minimal parts to debate. That is a clumsy attempt to stifle debate on what is clearly important legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn earlier parts of the process, National made it clear that it has been really concerned about two aspects of the bill. Although it acknowledges the importance of legal aid, and its importance in a system that must work for the provision of legal aid to both offenders and people involved in the civil process, we have nevertheless been truly concerned about two aspects of the bill. Those two aspects are related to the way the bill was drafted\u2014first, with those discretionary aspects that make it so unclear as to eligibility for legal aid, and, second, in respect of what we think is a glaring gap in the bill related to protecting the position of lawyers who are asked to undertake legal aid work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI am conscious, in making those last few comments, that there will be those on the other side of the House who have no sympathy for lawyers who undertake legal aid work at rates that are way below the benchmark. I remind those members opposite that legal aid rates were set in 1996. The salaries of judges have moved on in an overly dramatic way, and the salaries of other professions have moved on, so it is surprising that the salaries of lawyers remain static. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI am comforted by the presence of the Attorney-General in the Chamber. I am sure that the background Dr Cullen brings to the legal profession and the obligations he owes to advance and protect its interests will be followed through faithfully in support of what we have judged to be a gap in the legislation. Certainly, it is appropriate to welcome him back to the role of Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe absence in the bill of an appropriate provision to fix legal aid rates\u2014to advance that particular cause\u2014breaches fairness and equity. At an earlier stage, I had an opportunity to talk about one aspect that is known under the tag line of the equality of arms principle. That is all about the fact that the Crown has huge resources, in a criminal context particularly, to prosecute offenders. So it is only reasonable, in a just and fair democracy, that those who are tasked to defend people accused of crime have a similar degree of protection and resource. It is quite right to say that criminal legal aid remuneration rates are too low, to the extent that they breach that principle of equality of arms. The principle is that the defence counsel should have the opportunity to prepare and present his or her case on a footing equal to that of the prosecution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI ask tonight why the Government did not take up the proposal that the bill should have further provisions in it related to Part 1, which we are now debating in the Committee stage, to deal with that issue of legal aid. It is scarcely satisfactory, and I ask the Minister of Justice, the Minister in the chair, who is ready, willing, and eager to take a call, why an opportunity was not taken to deal with that significant issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI also say that the provision of adequate representation to people accused of crime is a principle that has been recognised in New Zealand case law as an essential facet of a fair trial, and as a fundamental human right that the Government must uphold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022018226ee8745434e897ee73f8ced9b95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022018226ee8745434e897ee73f8ced9b95\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Last night, in the Committee stage of the bill, we had a powerful address from Mr Fairbrother that showed just what a fine criminal lawyer he is. He said, and I agree, that service to the public is the hallmark of a profession. He said, and I agree also, that it is essential for young lawyers to understand their professional responsibilities. He said, and again I agree, that young lawyers need to enter the arena, get on their feet, and argue cases rather than just push paper\u2014as too many do in the large law firms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBut what a shame it was that that was all irrelevant to the critical issue facing the Committee last night, which was the issue of access to justice for the poor. He accused me of delivering a generalised rant, and said that I provided no evidence of the problem of the increasing disparity between the legal aid fund for criminal barristers and what Crown solicitors are paid. But I put it to the Committee that the evidence is overwhelming. Mr Fairbrother read, as indeed I did, the New Zealand Law Society submission on the topic. He read the submission of the community law centres. He read, and I pointed out to him, John Rowan\u2019s article in this month\u2019s New Zealand Law Journal on the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EMr Fairbrother\u2019s speech was a very impressive speech, but it was not at all persuasive. Mr Mark, on the other hand, raised a very fair question. He gave National back-benchers an elocution lesson, which was probably rude and unnecessary, but, as I said, he asked a fair question: what will the cost be of increasing criminal legal aid rates? He is entitled to an answer, and I give him an answer directly now. National says that the way to address the inadequacy of criminal legal aid rates is, first, to institute regular\u2014that is, annual\u2014reviews of the legal aid rates, using the methodology set out in the Crown solicitor\u2019s regulations, and, second, to have a good look at the market-based reforms that are planned for legal aid services in England. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt is one of the great tragedies of New Zealand that when New Zealanders elect Labour Governments, they tend to be left-wing Labour Governments, looking for inspiration to Sweden and other parts of Scandinavia. But if they looked at their brothers and sisters in England, they would find that the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs is actually coming up with proposals to reform legal aid that are market-based reforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI refer the Minister in the chair, Mark Burton, to the February 2006 report\u2014and I will get him a copy; I took it off the Internet last night\u2014of Lord Carter on legal aid procurement. Essentially, in a criminal context, what Lord Carter is recommending, and what will happen in England by 2009, is fixed pricing for all criminal legal aid work, including work provided in police stations, Magistrates\u2019 Courts, and Crown courts. It will be a managed market, awarding contracts to efficient and good-quality suppliers that can take on more cases\u2014either individual firms or collections of firms formed to deliver the benefits of scale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAnd the third way to address the issue is by managed price competition between efficient, good-quality suppliers, with safeguards to protect standards of quality, coverage in rural areas, and diversity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo members can see there are answers to this problem that do not necessarily result in a blow-out of legal aid rates or the legal aid budget. We have to be able to be creative, and at the same time develop a system that will achieve what National has been going on about since last night\u2014that is, ensuring access to justice for the poor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EMr Harawira hit the nail on the head last night when he said that he had appeared in court on a number of occasions and, after one occasion, when he had a lawyer who was not up to the mark, he had given up and represented himself. He could do that, because he is a very bright and eloquent individual. But many people are simply not able to do that. They require the services of a lawyer, and too often they get duds. That is the concern of National. It is not being addressed by the legislation, and that is why we are opposing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u002271f3faa588fb4c38bb47aaab2e8a844f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271f3faa588fb4c38bb47aaab2e8a844f\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I, too, would like to refer to some of the comments made yesterday, albeit without notes, by the honourable member Ron Mark. I have to say I am in total awe of his ability to speak without notes. Last night Mr Mark seemed to be fixated on how much money lawyers want. He said if we on this side of the Chamber could let him know how much we thought lawyers doing legal aid should get, then we might get the support of New Zealand First. How much do we want to pay lawyers? What do we expect them to be paid?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI see Mr Mark is here with his notes tonight. I repeat that the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) is not about lawyers; it is about access to justice. If the environment of legal aid is correctly pitched by this House, then the market will determine what the rate of legal aid remuneration should be. If the environment of legal aid is correctly pitched, the exodus of lawyers declining legal aid work may be halted. But in this bill it is not correctly pitched. When prosecuting counsel have significant advantages in terms of time, preparation, resources, and remuneration\u2014when the prosecuting counsel are at such an advantage over the defence counsel\u2014it is not a level playing field and it is not fair access to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe seem to have a fundamental difference of opinion in this debate. We on this side of the Chamber are concerned very much with the wider and more vital issue of access to justice. Those on the other side of the Chamber seem to be talking with envy about lawyers. I suggest that the wider issue of access to justice is the far more important issue that we should be debating in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EA legal aid system that is financially disadvantageous to legal providers, and thereby discourages acceptance of legal aid assignments by experienced practitioners, will undermine that access to justice in two key ways. It will affect the principle of counsel of choice. Insufficient remuneration rates will hamper that choice as more and more lawyers are forced to exit from the system. It is not uncommon for eligible members of the public to have to contact several practitioners before finding one who will be available to act for them. A system that is financially disadvantageous to legal providers will encourage the likelihood of less experienced counsel undertaking legal aid work, with greater risk of errors, miscarriage of justice, and less skilled judgments, and consequently more appeals at even greater cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EAt present there are huge financial disincentives for lawyers to undertake legal aid work. There are also huge bureaucratic disincentives for lawyers to undertake legal aid work. The bill is deficient in that area. For example, the bureaucratic disincentives include a multiplicity of forms prescribed by the Legal Services Agency that correspond to each stage and each type of proceeding. Lawyers normally fill out those forms on behalf of their clients\u2014a task that is both time-consuming and largely unpaid. Legal aid grants unduly restrict the hours allowed for in each step of the proceedings. Preparation time is limited, yet it is significantly shorter for the accused than it is for the prosecuting counsels. Disbursements relating to a legal aid matter must be paid for by the lawyer in advance, then claimed back after the matter is disposed of. Why should the lawyer have to cover those disbursements in advance? A complicated, comprehensive scheme for prior approval of estimates, examination of invoices, and auditing of completed work also adds to the bureaucracy that is imposed by the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EAll of those additional regimes create greater compliance costs for legal aid providers and are further disincentives to undertake legal aid work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00220b61cf63ac1b429ba4231a6e9800f667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b61cf63ac1b429ba4231a6e9800f667\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Because I am sure the debate on Part 1 is coming to a close, given the amount of repetition we are hearing, a brief wrapping-up statement from me is perhaps appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ENotwithstanding the numerous speeches we have heard from members opposite, what they all amount to is that, overall, they think the bill contains a number of useful and positive measures dealing with the redesign of the financial eligibility criteria, and a range of other details. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe one thing we have heard members opposite tell us repeatedly, ad nauseam, that they are unhappy with is the $165 an hour maximum rate. I draw that to the attention of Opposition members because\u2014as Mr Mark invited them to do last night\u2014if we are to have any useful debate on that point, they should at least introduce into the debate their alternative rate, so that we can understand what the consequences would be of what they are saying. Otherwise, it is pointless rhetoric. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI invite Dr Worth to look back at what the National Government did when it was given the opportunity. In 1998 it put the rates up and in 1999 it put them back down to where they had been. So when that member comes here and sheds crocodile tears about the rates, it is a bit difficult to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI simply say that this bill will progress. The question is whether members opposite will join us in advancing worthwhile, positive legislation, and accept that there will be further opportunities to discuss the issue of rates of reimbursement. I suggest to them that it would be far more useful to get on with this and enact the legislation. I am happy to engage with them later about the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242404414af2f4e40b398a95a8dc1e8d8\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: What does later mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ff6a0aed06e45b1a411aa6ce83e248d\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Once we have this legislation in place and bedded in, we can look at its implications and consequences. Then it will be appropriate to review a range of matters to do with the legislation, including reimbursement and hourly rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u00222123051996574f999842cdce9c492e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222123051996574f999842cdce9c492e7f\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to address the issues the Minister has just talked about that were raised last night. I will preface my remarks by drawing some analogies. For a medical specialist the hourly rate for working in a public hospital is lower than the hourly rate for working in a private hospital. For instance, in Taranaki it would take 55 minutes to get a knee replacement in a private hospital and 1\u00BD hours in a public hospital, because the hourly rate in a public hospital is lower. An accountant who gives budget advice or a psychologist who sees Accident Compensation Corporation clients does so for reasons other than money\u2014to meet a social need\u2014and has to make a judgment sooner or later as to how much time to allocate to doing such work at a lower rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe fact that a lawyer may make such a judgment does not mean he or she is as tight as a snapper\u2019s arse or is only self-interested. That seems a reasonably fair point to make. Talking about lawyers\u2019 wages or hourly rates is a bit like talking about the same thing with regard to MPs\u2014one does not talk about it, because everyone has already made an assessment. Sooner or later people engaged in activities such as legal aid work need to balance their needs and the needs of the community they serve. I wonder how keen this Government would be\u2014or any Government would be, for that matter\u2014to allow children in low-decile schools to be taught by teachers who are paid about a third less than we pay teachers in high-decile schools. That is the sort of argument we get into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ELet us look at the Crown Solicitors Regulations 1994 and make a few comparisons. For instance, the Minister keeps quoting an hourly rate for legal aid of $165. I must tell the Minister that that figure relates to what a Queen\u2019s Counsel receives for doing a murder trial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EA question was raised last night by our good friend \u201CMini-Me\u201D, or whatever his latest nickname is. I have done my best to do some research and give him the answers. Let us just wander through that. As a brand new, wet-behind-the-ears junior legal aid counsel I got $95 an hour\u2014or my firm was paid $95 an hour and I got $20 an hour. In fact during the 2\u00BD years I worked as a lawyer I was never paid what I was paid as a cop, and I have to say that I worked a damn sight harder as a lawyer. So the top hourly rate on legal aid is $165 an hour. The top rate for a Crown solicitor is $216 an hour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ELet us look at other provisions lawyers are given, too\u2014for instance, the preparation time for sentencing. A senior counsel, who might be earning anywhere between $130 and $160 an hour, gets, say, $450 for preparing a sentencing, but a Crown solicitor gets 7 hours\u2019 preparation time. The legal aid counsel gets 3 hours\u2019 preparation time, but the Crown solicitor gets 7 hours. We should not forget that the Crown solicitor has the police officer who prepared the file handing it to him or her on a plate, and the Crown solicitor prepares the sentencing notes from that. The question was asked last night and I am trying my best to address it, so I hope members will give me a little bit of indulgence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe next point, though, is that the legal aid solicitor gets, say, $450 for a sentencing. What does the Crown solicitor get? The Crown solicitor gets $1,512, because he gets extra time. Let us have a look at travelling time\u2014this is interesting. A legal aid solicitor gets half the hourly rate or pretty much a flat $70 an hour for travel, if travel time is granted. But travel time is not granted, for instance, if the legal aid solicitor is working in a court that is away from his or her own patch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI have just come off the phone after talking to a bloke who happens to work in Wanganui. He has been asked by the Bar in Auckland to look after a particularly difficult murder trial. He will fly to Auckland and he will get a rental car, but none of that will be paid for by the Legal Services Agency, and his rate will be $165 an hour. He will not have his air fares paid or any travel time paid, because he is working out of his own patch. But, for instance, if he was a Crown counsel and it was decided that he would go and move out of his patch, all his expenses would be paid for, including his accommodation, his vehicle travel, and his air travel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d006f82022584406b188a325cd51d82f\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f61c401b3de457d9ff2d6b1b7b5ce7d\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS\u003C/span\u003E: I am answering some of the questions that the Minister asked last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7041d04582e4653adc3b39414bcffd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7041d04582e4653adc3b39414bcffd4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002213c01a5809f24aba880fcd6784d8e00a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213c01a5809f24aba880fcd6784d8e00a\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E This bill extends the criteria for people who can apply for legal aid, but at the same time it does not adequately provide for an enhanced funding regime for legal practitioners. That is the problem National has seen in this bill, because there is a crisis for legal aid practitioners. They are suffering from having low payment rates and high administration costs. The implication of this lower standard and lower level of representation falls on our most vulnerable people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has argued two things. First, that National should specify the amount. That is simply not good law. The law needs to be flexible to recognise changes in the future. The answer is that we review the process, and the legislation should contain a process. Secondly, New Zealand First members say that National is trying to feather the nests of rich lawyers. That argument fails, on two counts. First, wealthy lawyers will not even do this work, because legal aid returns are insufficient. Second, historic cases set a precedent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe biggest historical case involved a member of this House, and he is the Rt Hon Winston Peters. One of the greatest legal expenses ever paid by this Government to an individual was to the leader of New Zealand First. That is true. It was also for the benefit of Mr Mark and his party; they are still here in the Chamber because of the money the Government paid for legal services. Do members know what it was called? It was called the wine-box inquiry. Members remember the wine-box inquiry\u2014it was money paid to New Zealand First to keep its members in this Chamber. The Press in 1999 stated that $1.45 million was paid, and $1.44 million of that was paid in legal fees to Mr Mark\u2019s leader. Mr Peters was reported as saying it was a good investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E I find it extremely rich and unconscionable for members of New Zealand First to deride National\u2019s arguments. National has stood and argued for the interests of justice and that there needs to be a funded legal aid system. It is really rich and unconscionable for the likes of Mr Mark to argue against the availability of competitive legal services, when his very position in Parliament is based on having Government funding for New Zealand First legal fees. It is rich and unconscionable for Mr Mark to argue against ordinary New Zealanders getting the level of representation that he enjoyed to keep him in this Parliament. It is rich and unconscionable for Mr Mark to make disparaging comments about National\u2019s intentions when he himself was the beneficiary of Government money that keeps him in the Chamber. At the time of the wine-box inquiry Mr Mark and other members of New Zealand First were willing to put out their hands and take the best legal advice available. They were afraid to fight a case under-resourced; they wanted everything they could get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256e73ff3b54c4ed181a8e5f7e6d6d4ac\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member needs to come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df506b64c6a4cdda69dc404d58e2f50\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Under section 92 we are arguing that there is not the level of representation, because legal aid is not being funded. Why then is it good enough for New Zealand First members, but not for ordinary New Zealanders, to have an adequate level of representation? That is the key. Why is it good enough for them but not for ordinary New Zealanders who could be going to jail to get that adequate level of representation? That shows the double standard of that party\u2014a party that takes with one hand and is not willing to give to the ordinary people. Those are the people that we are here to represent. We should be delivering for them, not just keeping people in Parliament through legal costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002270dcf485e61e4bafaea863f40a614ac2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270dcf485e61e4bafaea863f40a614ac2\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002231c17d903e44408c8bb4d97ee7b82a69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231c17d903e44408c8bb4d97ee7b82a69\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Interesting. It is an interesting notion that this Committee should consider paying lawyers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5851bb512a8489e90cadac20df4de1c\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. You would know that points of order should be put tersely. They do not start with \u201Cinteresting\u201D pause \u201Cinteresting\u201D. It is for the member, if he has a point of order, to raise the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e05e9e68c274e0596100a0bce178ebd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mark has the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282ebca93565b422cb7f75319c770e21a\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Even more interesting is that that is the quality of legal representation the National Party is defending\u2014a man who is so out in fairyland that he does not even know where the debate is, and cannot tell that the member on his feet is not raising a point of order but has actually been awarded the call, and that man stands up and dares to ask the nation to pay him $400 an hour to do legal aid work. At least that was the figure put up by his colleague Chester Borrows. That man wants to be paid more for legal aid services, for the quality of his representation, and he cannot even keep track of where the heck the debate is in the Committee. What sort of a legal representative would he be for the fine men and women of the Road Knights gang when they seek representation for their criminal activities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe claims that David Bennett has just made in this Chamber border on contempt and defamation, and contain so much in the way of inaccuracies that I am sure of one thing: New Zealand First will go through his words in Hansard with a fine-tooth comb, and I have no doubt that if he dares to say those things outside this Chamber he will be seeking legal aid to defend himself against defamation. But, of course, that is the whole trick. What he would do is defend himself and hopefully get paid more than just his MP\u2019s salary, in which he has just had a massive increase\u2014because, not being satisfied with that huge leap in his income, he now stands in this House and bays for more money for his professional services. We have seen an example of those services tonight, and they can only be described, in the most charitable terms, as somewhat lacking. I have sat in the House and listened to the debate go far off the mark\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e656ea07b9467ba39a73d3c6675d88\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It took Ron Mark about a minute tonight to utter more than the word \u201Cinteresting\u201D, which is quite unusual for someone of his oratory ability. That just shows that he was stunned. So comments like he is making now are inconsistent with the approach he is taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecab00e6c1254a31b9aa2d78080e58ad\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57eba6864784bddbd905a9a54204c70\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Again I ask: how deep does one have to dig the hole to prove to the nation, on air, how lacking one is in skills and ability to articulate one\u2019s case and to justify what one seeks? If anything convinces me that there is a need to look at this issue a little more closely\u2014and I do note that this bill extends the amount of legal aid, or the opportunity for legal aid\u2014it is that we are talking about 1.2 million people being eligible for legal aid. That is an increase of about 450,000 or 500,000 people. If we now add on top of the current legal aid bill the cost brought about by another 400,000 people being eligible for legal aid, and if we then compound on top of that the increases in fees that the honourable Chester Borrows is suggesting\u2014$400 an hour\u2014I come back to the same question. What cost this policy, and how can one afford such a huge increase in the budget whilst one is, at the same time, espousing the need for tax breaks? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhy should we expect the average New Zealander\u2014the hard-working businessman or woman\u2014who is out there grafting, to pay these fees for the Road Knights, the Epitaph Riders, the Mongrel Mob, or the Hells Angels, who have been plaguing the streets of Wanganui and every other city peddling their evil through methamphetamine? Now, learned scholars and competent lawyers such as the honourable Mr Finlayson here would probably have a good argument. It would be based on equality of justice for all, no matter how big a scumbag that person is. Those arguments I can listen to. But the plain baying for money with incoherent arguments that simply do not, actually, flatter the person who makes the argument bear no weight for New Zealand First. I would much rather hear from National: how much money and over what period. Then we could get to the chase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c823f1b0f04c6dba348bcba8998d70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c823f1b0f04c6dba348bcba8998d70\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d4461d2652e843ba9accb9e49e06f283\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000783\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 20 in the name of the Hon Mark Burton to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220499597b2b1e4bfdbc4612b16882d1b8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227633ce42b2d140a68b8d49f9ac702b3c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000784\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000785\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000786\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Tariff (Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership) Amendment Bill without amendment, progress on the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2), and no progress on the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000787\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002237178ba52f7e4480b64ad622b3c2efaa\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e8760aad1984723a2a3a06fb0cdc012\u0022\u003ECorrection\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c39b0d46090546179fc375711787fd62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c39b0d46090546179fc375711787fd62\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier I forgot to record a couple of votes for the ACT party. I seek leave to have those votes recorded. It was for the third reading of the Taxation (Depreciation, Payment Dates Alignment, FBT, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, and it was two votes opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf4b0be328534d0b8d0cc5b78e0eec4a\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. The new result on that vote is Ayes 109, Noes 2, and there were 10 abstentions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603225db276434d554f99991556f8991ddb31000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"