"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fcf35b7146c347ec8701ace07411fb17\u0022\u003EThursday, 30 March 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022907d3fae20484b388e1e10d91f97fe87\u0022\u003EThursday, 30 March 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a958a4ec8144c25934a704d82c23b1c\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b78a1c7c2f0e48ad920f36b8905b4b9d\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002204890d2a04ce4a008bf529394106abd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204890d2a04ce4a008bf529394106abd7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House, priority will be given to the Appropriation (2004/05 Financial Review) Bill, the remaining stages of the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3), the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill, the Criminal Procedures Bill, the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill, and the first reading of the Local Government Law Reform Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAs previously indicated, the third reading of the New Zealand Sign Language Bill is set down for Thursday. I understand there may be a Privileges Committee report available for debate that day, and as it would normally take priority I will be discussing with the other parties the seeking of leave to ensure that the New Zealand Sign Language Bill is taken first. There should be time on Thursday to deal both with that bill and with the Privileges Committee report. On Thursday the House will sit at the ringing of the bell due to the official luncheon in honour of His Excellency Mr Wen Jiabao, Premier of the People\u2019s Republic of China.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022890b8edda1cc464bac12bdc8405ef85b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022890b8edda1cc464bac12bdc8405ef85b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am not sure whether I heard correctly, but did the Leader of the House indicate that the Privileges Committee report would be dealt with by the House next Thursday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002237a4deb3f72d492e84af31470ddfdbd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237a4deb3f72d492e84af31470ddfdbd0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E My understanding is that the report will be tabled on Wednesday. If that is the case, then under the Standing Orders it takes priority as the first item of business on Thursday. As the member will be aware, the Business Committee has already set down the New Zealand Sign Language Bill for Thursday, and people will be coming to the House for that occasion. So if that is the case, I will be talking with the parties about whether we could take the Privileges Committee report after the New Zealand Sign Language Bill. I am not expecting that the luncheon will delay the start of the House too much on Thursday next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221197bd3d5d6c4f1f869be47506d1d6b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221197bd3d5d6c4f1f869be47506d1d6b9\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Could the Leader of the House indicate to us whether, if we were to agree to those proposals, he would also seek leave for the House to continue its business until the report of the Privileges Committee was fully debated. So, rather than breaking on Thursday at 6 o\u2019clock\u2014if it comes to that, and it may well do\u2014we would continue to debate the report through to its closure, in order that the debate on a Privileges Committee report is not broken by a 3-week adjournment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002225debb9ab5244a088531eab0182b3259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225debb9ab5244a088531eab0182b3259\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I will consider that matter, but we will just work through the timetable. I doubt, for example, that the New Zealand Sign Language Bill will take the full 2 hours of debate, given the experience of that bill so far in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022029aae8997124db096ca207deb5100f2\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229da385c11d1e439d989cbd8042e4449b\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u2014Quotations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbc81de5be8a44b09803a5490087db9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbc81de5be8a44b09803a5490087db9d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I gave a ruling yesterday on the use of quotations in questions and replies. This was a subject that I had promised the House last week that I would consider\u2014see Hansard, 23 March, at page 2136. Following my ruling, a point of order was raised about why I had not addressed an issue that also arose last week, concerning the capacity in which Ministers can be questioned. I point out that that issue arose on 22 March. I was not asked then, nor did I promise, to give a considered ruling on that matter. Members should be careful in raising points of order that they accurately recall events in the House. Now that the matter has been raised I will give some consideration to it, and come back to the House with a ruling as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276aa370170124d989b8e167a0814a2b8\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002279f08c328f034d42b95b0112237c6ade\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u2014Questions to Spokesperson\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5965d8cb2c64613bb381df509b08925\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5965d8cb2c64613bb381df509b08925\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is an important point of order in respect of Standing Orders 370 and 371, and relates to questions to the Government. My point of order relates to a press release by the Government today in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons, who is stated to be the Government spokesperson on energy efficiency. The core of our parliamentary democracy is the capacity to question members in this House on their responsibilities. The advice I have had from the Clerk\u2019s Office is that it is not possible for me to lodge questions to Jeanette Fitzsimons, despite the fact she is the Government spokesperson on energy efficiency. The Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority has a vote of nearly $20 million a year. Its officials have advised me that, indeed, Jeanette Fitzsimons is the person in charge of that. Madam Speaker, I do not necessarily wish you to give a ruling off the cuff, because I think that when the Standing Orders were written it was not envisaged that members from an Opposition party would have responsibilities within the Government, but I think you do need to give a considered ruling. Members need to be able to question members who have specific responsibilities\u2014in this case, Jeanette Fitzsimons as the Government spokesperson on energy efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002272a3b9a70c8f46f594fff0d737f1733d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272a3b9a70c8f46f594fff0d737f1733d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I think this matter is very clear. Standing Order 369 obviously relates to questions to Ministers; it is absolutely specific in that respect. Of course, the Minister responsible for these matters is the Acting Minister of Energy, the Hon Trevor Mallard. Standing Order 370(1) does, of course, state: \u201CQuestions may be put to a member (not being a Minister or the Speaker) relating to any bill, motion or public matter connected with the business of the House, of which the member has charge.\u201D But that is always interpreted very narrowly. If the member cares to think about it, he will see that it is in his own interest, and that of the Opposition, that it is interpreted very narrowly, because sometimes, obviously, the Government thinks about whether it could somehow invent some questions for Opposition spokespeople on a variety of matters on which it might be interesting to have them under parliamentary scrutiny for an extended period of time. I am sure that narrow interpretation will continue to be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00220533839d698f4941b160e2f15784ed73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220533839d698f4941b160e2f15784ed73\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a21910229f1450f8b85f02a9eb27174\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have heard enough, thank you. The member has had an opportunity to put his point, we have had a response, and I have had advice. The Speaker, of course, is not responsible for how members are described outside this House. In the context of the Standing Orders, however, as has been noted, under Standing Order 369 only Ministers can be questioned. However, it is correct that under Standing Order 370 other members may be questioned in limited circumstances, and those circumstances relate to business before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b47c102c01714e09b2742f5a3a362135\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df710d94b5084498ae5a35d0b3d244b1\u0022\u003EWine-box Inquiry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8ba07b9ecc940a7a8b7edb4bb3e4f78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8ba07b9ecc940a7a8b7edb4bb3e4f78\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table question for written answer No. 4381 from Ken Shirley to Jack Elder about payments made in respect of legal expenses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe29e514b6848aab8352245bf07ba9a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e487d1d852d346b592cecb7d267d6717\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9ae1c1cedb5453cb6482ad7bb08e495\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b590023070b4461db96dd8df15ecb6fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b590023070b4461db96dd8df15ecb6fb\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I have just been reflecting on the information given to the House today by Dr Michael Cullen, who is the Leader of the House and the Deputy Prime Minister, in which he indicated that he understood that the Privileges Committee would table a report in Parliament on Wednesday and would be debated on Thursday. The Privileges Committee has been meeting over a particular matter. Today the most recent meeting was closed to the public, and the determinations of that committee are not public. Given that I as a member of the committee cannot tell members when that report will be tabled, how, at this stage, can he so confidently prepare the House for a debate on the report? He is not a member of the committee and should not have the information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00221ee6e1f7059848d3ab5368a0dc95a609\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ee6e1f7059848d3ab5368a0dc95a609\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, reports are given to all members of this House. I was very careful to say \u201CI understand\u201D that the report may be available for debate next Thursday. Those sorts of decisions are discussed in the Business Committee and elsewhere. It is a matter of good order in this House to indicate we have already committed ourselves to an item of business next Thursday, and that therefore we should consider how we manage that business in that particular circumstance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221ec802bdc3ad4701be82d1f8033b6733\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ec802bdc3ad4701be82d1f8033b6733\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Noting that the Privileges Committee is an important organ of this Parliament, I wonder whether the Deputy Prime Minister can assure us that the Labour and Government-supporting members of that committee have not been in some sort of collusion to predetermine an outcome from that committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022354e731bdc2d43e782a12c0e9b6b3f29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022354e731bdc2d43e782a12c0e9b6b3f29\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure that is so. I am not sitting on that committee on that particular case for the very obvious reason that I am one of the shareholding Ministers of the organisation that is being charged with a privileges offence. But if the member is trying to tell me that his colleagues never report to his caucus about what goes on in select committees, then I would strongly recommend that they adopt that practice in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002230fb0f43c5334f718124eb1b496626ed\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bffdcb087dc484ab837b3338a16b6ae\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff151c6e82ba481389f50bc2da538066\u0022\u003ETaxation\u2014Effective Marginal Tax Rates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225471496861364db1993041dcbeff1739\u0022\u003E1. SHANE JONES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports, if any, has he received indicating that effective marginal tax rates should be increased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002260919a059b854aba8cf4e94ca8fa13bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260919a059b854aba8cf4e94ca8fa13bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have received reports suggesting that payments under Working for Families should abate at a rate that would mean that a person on a parliamentary salary of $118,000 with five children would not receive any payment under the scheme. This, of course, would mean a higher level of abatement, and therefore higher effective marginal tax rates. For the person referred to yesterday with 20 children to be abated out by that level of salary would imply an abatement rate of 70 percent and an effective marginal tax rate of 109 percent on all income above $60,000 a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a139aa6d42224cc7943fb2c5c790b904\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any reports that indicate support for avoidance measures to rort the Working for Families scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227737427517e487fa459f8272d817916\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen reports suggesting that a dual-income family with five children, where one income earner is paid $118,000 per annum, would be paid money under the Working for Families scheme. Of course, this would be true only if the family failed to declare the second income in the household. I hope that no one in this House would encourage the latter behaviour, which would, of course, be a serious rort of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244440b365f2447c992aaf6d5e58fc6d3\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government encouraging people into work when a person on the domestic purposes benefit with three children who increases his or her wages from work from $10,000 a year to $25,000 a year would face an effective marginal tax rate of approximately 90 percent, leaving that person with less than $1,700 of that extra $15,000 earned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223bdbb1e42a9441e9e6bc59dad77fb15\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: May I thank the member for the opportunity to answer that question, because yesterday the National Party asked questions implying the abatement rate was far too low. Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith is now asking a question saying that the abatement rate is far too high. I just wish the Opposition could work out this scheme and get their answers consistent from one day to the next. In any case he is using the old abatement rates, not the new ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3f8d18eefd4ffcb8a4f6b71d2b57ee\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister please explain how the old abatement rates are being used when the figures I have used were supplied by the Inland Revenue Department yesterday as applying from 1 April this year\u2014does the Minister not even know his own portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f172929d2904d998f5f35f371d6a496\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is very interesting, but my response to the member is that abatement rates at some point in coming off benefit of about 90 percent have been in the New Zealand system at any time since it was instituted, otherwise the member is getting up and asking me why somebody on $100,000 a year is still getting the domestic purposes benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278a99f5fa9634e3eaeb24d75c405148b\u0022\u003EIncome Per Capita\u2014OECD Ranking\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278d3bbe9684e4b5fa4db949ca66f0004\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does her Government still have the objective of returning New Zealand\u2019s per capita income to the top half of the OECD; if so, when does she expect this to happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcbd4f06d3b4472e9f00b82cd80bbdcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcbd4f06d3b4472e9f00b82cd80bbdcc\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. No target time has been set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664da1545be6498fbe1f866a34a1d7b6\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: What does she think of the recent stagnation of the New Zealand economy, with a real risk that we are already in recession and with the virtual certainty of very poor growth over the next several years\u2014so poor that our economy has been described by one major bank as being \u201Cin the cack\u201D? What does she think that recent stagnation and very poor prospects will do to our ranking in the OECD?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad403fb3a59472f96984f82d050082f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the member is praying for exactly such an outcome, but I have much more faith in New Zealanders and our economy than he does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de4986c2e56401a9b8bea51fb723849\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that, unlike in 1997 and 1998, there is no Asian crisis currently under way, that there have not been successive years of drought, and that, therefore, in the absence of major external shocks, the Government has managed to bring us to the brink of recession all on its own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afac8394477541bb8c41c01b5ac2cfe9\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There is an old saying that one swallow does not make a spring. This country has just gone through something like 20 consecutive quarters of strong growth. The member is well aware that when the exchange rate of the dollar goes high and impacts on exporting, there is a period of rebalancing. That is exactly what the economy is going through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ac7027f3c9a4006b56d352f036abdc3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Contrary to the claims made in the last question, can the Prime Minister confirm that during this Government\u2019s period of office, there have in fact been 2 years of drought, that we have had a massive outbreak of international terrorism, a war in Iraq\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c32a8428b14448829e1a767cf42824\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Both after I had been called for a point of order and during the asking of that supplementary question, the relatively new member who sits on the front bench of the Opposition was running a series of interjections. I know that the Opposition supports the principle of one law for all, and that principle should be applied to him, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdac4287e15c4160b6664f6c3c482979\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is early in this particular session. Members are all on their final warning today, and that includes one for the level of barracking. It was at the maximum level in response to the last question. So would all members please get on and let us have a question time where we can hear both the questions and the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d496ebf8cf14f719248b58ad5de700e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I will repeat the question. Can the Prime Minister confirm that contrary to the assertions made in the previous question, we have experienced 2 years of drought under this Government, plus a number of serious floods, a major terrorist attack that led to an international crisis around terrorism, a war in Iraq\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282566ef84a7e483482eb2e4798e14b5f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt my colleague, but Mr Smith interjected twice during Dr Cullen\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9c38c76b54a45aba66029d2e672646f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know he did. I am sorry, Dr Smith, but I specifically did not take action the time before when the question was being asked. I put everyone on a final warning, so would you please leave the Chamber until the end of question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e641733dcf0d4eb399f0cdf997fb79c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284f9831fe8454542b24a5f327ccc80ae\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am frequently accused in this House of not upholding the Standing Orders. I try to be as fair as I humanly can, to enable a robust debate to take place. The matter was raised before. I gave a final warning, and you interjected twice, Dr Smith. It is not a question of an apology; it is a question of in fact obeying the rules. So I ask you to please leave the Chamber. You may, of course, come back if you have a primary question, and certainly you are permitted to come back at the end of question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d544b06bacd74165b63bbb99ad0cc18d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, can the Prime Minister confirm that contrary to the assertions in the previous question, there have in fact been 2 years of drought, a number of floods, a major outbreak of terrorism, a war in the Middle East, in Iraq, and that oil prices have risen from about $20 a barrel to over $60 a barrel, which is a far higher increase than occurred during the late 1990s?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab013de36d7b44ff88e6491122b5d792\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I can indeed confirm that under the Labour Government there have been some 20 consecutive quarters of strong growth, despite all those conditions\u2014circumstances that I consider far more difficult to deal with than the Asian crisis was, which the then National Government exacerbated by cutting spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208ad836ef20f401a8981f5c00b47e71e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Dr Brash has put at issue the response to the Asian crisis of 1997-98, which, in the Government\u2019s view, as it points to the future, was the appropriate action: the then Treasurer ensuring that there was significant liquidity and a greater social welfare, health, and education expenditure, or Dr Brash tightening the currency at that critical time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c4cef6b39c44e37a791b86561cf1487\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210c308681e3a4b4fa0c9f16761c53f73\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think I understand your point of order about whether that is a responsibility and whether it is within the question. Would the member care to relate the question to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7f3f4e3d24c4fcf9612a694a772769d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Dr Brash put at issue the Asian crisis and response of 1997-98\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c56294a7dc1416cb3a889205c49e206\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8c4a50bf4b54574af6a06e058874787\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The member should sit down. I am speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d74d6cb358fd4549b36073402511ca0e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, you must allow the member to finish and then you can have your say. Would both members please sit down. As I understand it\u2014and I may have misheard\u2014when the member Winston Peters rose, I assumed he was taking a point of order. I hesitated before the Rt Hon Prime Minister responded, because I was reflecting on whether the question was, in fact, in order. I will take the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2019 point of order and then Mr Brownlee\u2019s point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f609f7b7f845d79962b4078340ec34\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is that Dr Brash put at issue the response to the Asian crisis of 1997-98. What is important with regard to that is that one needs to know what a Government\u2019s likely response would be should such a thing happen again: the response of the then Treasurer to ensure that liquidity in the market and confidence were retained in New Zealand, or the very opposite response from Dr Brash\u2014the then Governor of the Reserve Bank\u2014to tighten liquidity, which is all a fact?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fc4030ab8e64c40b64255d7902de753\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So the question asks for an opinion on a situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022553f187854a14ed692d7d979d1af4853\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have no hesitation in backing the then Treasurer\u2019s approach on that. Dr Brash was known for high interest rates, which crushed the economy regularly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022410e6e7123ec486ab7d4615804d325fe\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen the report in The Economist of 6 February that the OECD itself is increasingly criticising GDP as a way of measuring well-being because it ignores inequality, pollution, and the depreciation of natural and built capital, and does she agree that we should instead aspire to a high ranking in social, environmental, and cultural well-being?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cf33f782e704f869904eb3c10ce3b0e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The member is right in saying that GDP rates per capita are not the only indicator of well-being, although they are significant. Of course, average rates can also disguise very great polarisation between the very wealthy and the very poor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d97460de7d4b41ef9b434fab24638bce\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that in 1999 New Zealand ranked 20th out of 30 OECD countries, and that the latest figures show we are still ranked 20th out of 30, and does it make her despondent to think that even during a period of strong international prices and good growing weather, we have not been able to get even close to No. 19?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b934bc969a4cfbbf876f1ad8c6b69b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not have that sort of despondent personality. I know this economy has been growing for 20 quarters on end, which is a far better result than Dr Brash\u2014with his crushing policy on exporters\u2014had for this economy, which he jolly nearly wrecked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f02a8c1ea14fd090fe4101397ef8b2\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think we will ever meet the objective of getting to the top half of the OECD, when although the Minister of Finance has said that the first step in doing so is to raise our sustainable growth rate to 4 percent, Treasury has said that our sustainable growth rate in the future will only be around 3 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade47739b658435887b02ba9f444acac\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has a series of policies that aim to have New Zealand with a higher sustainable growth rate over time. Those policies are working. They have produced 20 consecutive quarters of growth. The very minor minus 0.1 percent of the last quarter may cheer Dr Brash and his despondent personality, but it will not depress this Government, which has produced years on end of strong growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022098e740eb30c4313b6ad2d3906b213d0\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article I referred to from The Economist of 6 February entitled \u201CGrossly distorted picture\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022719240efae3d430e82f54345f24cacf0\u0022\u003EClimate Change\u2014Cross-party Agreement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022616b7e6189db42c4a3489d09cb3b3c3e\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: Does he agree with British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, that \u201Cin terms of the long term future there is no issue that\u2019s more important than climate change\u201D; if so, will he support a cross-party agreement on the seriousness of this issue and the broad parameters for the way forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00227ed8cf81efdb441abe60a554900f0087\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ed8cf81efdb441abe60a554900f0087\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Acting Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Yes and yes. The Government support for a cross-party agreement would, however, be dependent on New Zealand responding assertively to the threat that climate change presents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f6c156e6f842feb65da6cce8acd761\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that a first objective would be to form some agreement on the degree of seriousness and urgency of climate change, and of the need for action soon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267cd89bc396f49b786d515ea8a5e7817\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: That would strike me as a very good place to start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256e7e0b0ccc045c4807e303cfbc079d7\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any examples internationally where there has been cross-party support for climate change policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896007f62d764df49ba0b15a0ae859b0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we can learn lessons from those in other countries. I would particularly instance the Dutch and the Canadians, both of whom have had experiences we can learn from. I await with interest the response of other parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f5f2438c3d477982e77c56e8ac67de\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it fair to expect cross-party support on an idea enunciated by Tony Blair, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, when one of the MPs in this House has described him as an \u201Cabsolute liar\u201D and \u201Csomebody he cannot stand\u201D, even though he has not met him, and who has further said that anyone supportive of such a meeting is \u201Csucking up to the pommies\u201D\u2014views expressed by Tau Henare this morning on Paul Holmes\u2019 show in respect of Tony Blair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad914576850a493abda22c41d66800ad\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen that transcript. I must say that I think the issue is now no longer Tau Henare\u2019s behaviour as much as it is his leader\u2019s response to it. I would like to know what the Leader of the Opposition intends to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64d7e21602a44a8851309ce736c4676\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it might be possible to reach agreement that there needs to be a price on carbon throughout the economy to give business certainty about investment; and is he aware that the former National Minister for the Environment Simon Upton told this week\u2019s climate change conference that a carbon tax would be the simplest, most effective, and most transparent tool to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and that all parties that had rejected it should eat humble pie and reconsider?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e97cb02412dc4902ba63765a9b345217\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware of the Rt Hon Simon Upton\u2019s comments, and I do believe that having a price on carbon is very valuable. If, however, we were not able to achieve that, we could achieve some measure of success by ensuring through other policy measures that capital investment was made in a way that took into account the carbon issues surrounding climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273b809dded324dd4a725e762b8e53160\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that subsequent to his extraordinary mishandling of this portfolio, he has asked the Prime Minister to relieve him of the portfolio in the forthcoming reshuffle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228869ed7b866e4742aec254a24dc64557\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am the Acting Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268d5f84ce41143568e184f6cd5e483e1\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with economist Steve Hatfield-Dodds, from the climate change conference, that under all economic models, cutting emissions significantly has only a minor impact on the growth of GDP; if so, is he concerned that sacrificing the future of the planet for the sake of a minor slow-down in GDP growth might not be sensible prioritisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a491025e9a044259b1d8afb813f0152\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I regret that I have not seen that particular economist\u2019s remarks, but it is a matter of fact that the carbon tax effect on GDP was so small that we could not quite manage to measure it accurately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbad44b279984ba48f91990879316458\u0022\u003EElective Surgery\u2014Ability to Meet Need\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228035038a2b3a4e359c7d360166944c2c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What mark out of 10 would he give the Government\u2019s ability to meet New Zealanders\u2019 need for elective surgery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcbf2388f9094bdfa4905ae2e93b0bb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcbf2388f9094bdfa4905ae2e93b0bb3\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E A mark of 5\u00BD\u2014higher than was ever the case under the previous National Government. New Zealand\u2019s health system scores a pass mark because it is a good health system staffed by a dedicated workforce that we can all be proud of. The reason the mark ought not to be more than 5\u00BD is that our workforce continually seeks improvement, and this Government continually supports that attitude. We will never be complacent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c211145afc743a4bec4b4e6612d5316\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister think of anything worse for the mother of an 8-year-old boy with a brain aneurysm that, if it ruptures, can lead to brain damage, major stroke, or death, than\u2014and how can he countenance\u2014a health system that sees two long-awaited surgery dates for this boy cancelled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2dddc030e4a4145b9573010a1777cb7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member should think twice before bringing individual cases to the House. His colleagues do not do so. They give me information privately in order that I can progress issues. This issue is being progressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c99b8213d2c44c4949ce78246a8e76d\u0022\u003EAnn Hartley\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he received on ways to reduce pressure on the elective surgery system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5cea1a24a0d4586802b8128b4eab53b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen one report that directs public hospitals to manipulate elective surgery thresholds to conceal from the public growth in waiting lists. This was not just a report; it was a direct order from a former Minister of Health, Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e13c60f5b1dc479e9d4ebeb27fe409a8\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What would he say to the mother of this 8-year-old boy as she tries to explain to her son why his operations are being cancelled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022351abcecbdd043fe893f7385ccb83429\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will not speak in a public arena about a private case unless the person involved puts his or her name in the public arena first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e487e691b7604574a54c52673ad1a5fd\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it taking so long for kids like this boy to get this vitally needed surgery, yet if the brain aneurysm did erupt he would get the operation, all right, but at the risk of brain damage, a stroke, or death?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a1c563a6d94f6e8e9b13c7215b1556\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will say again that this case has been raised with me privately by two of the member\u2019s colleagues, who have been in discussions with my office yesterday and last night. I do not feel it is ethical for me to put a lot of personal detail into the public arena, but if I were to do so, it would change the context of the member\u2019s position significantly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250c178f4fc4b41189a0d512b2f4c5317\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How would he answer the mother\u2019s question that surely it would be cheaper and safer to operate on her son in a controlled environment rather than in an emergency situation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215f23049cc6449f7a33242d0ee009c77\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will say again that this is an issue that has more than one side to it. I will not put the other side in the House because I do not think that is an appropriate thing to do, but I urge the member to please get across all of the detail of this case; he can get it from his colleagues, who understand it better than he does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2363cb2b7c145219d1549f806c0d2d3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister please explain why another 143 people have been promised neurosurgery by the Auckland District Health Board but are still waiting and worrying after 6 long months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f29cc5d306d44a2e95afda0102c1422a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Auckland City Hospital has gone through a very significant transformation in recent times, and this has been shown particularly in the area of cardiac surgery and elsewhere. The member\u2019s colleague breathlessly raised some minutes in respect of Auckland surgery, just 2 days ago. Those minutes were 3\u00BD months old. The response to those minutes has been that an action plan has been developed, and it is now partially implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f3b9f30b06a4289896ae01cb4a71df2\u0022\u003EApples\u2014Australian Market Access\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ae4accb8884010adb89b8a6436eecc\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Trade: What action is New Zealand currently taking to secure access for New Zealand apples into the Australian market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5090420aee54b91af63051fc78a1f51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5090420aee54b91af63051fc78a1f51\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Trade):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand yesterday raised the issue of apple access into Australia at the World Trade Organization (WTO) Committee on Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures in Geneva. This is the third time that we have taken the matter up at that committee and received strong support from others, such as the United States. Today New Zealand has forwarded a formal submission to Biosecurity Australia in response to its draft import risk assessment. In both cases New Zealand has strongly and clearly demonstrated why Australia\u2019s proposed quarantine measures are not scientifically justified and must be changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeabaaed652241a88681da3691ae9869\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: What consultation was undertaken in putting together the submission to Biosecurity Australia, and does it have the support of New Zealand\u2019s industry body?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e40b25fe46484099b859fe1c201fd3e0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The submission is a detailed and technically rigorous 102-page document drafted by Biosecurity New Zealand in close consultation with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The industry body Pipfruit New Zealand was closely involved in its drafting and is supportive of the submission. The submission expresses the significant concerns of both the Government and industry about the conditions that have been proposed for our apples\u2019 access. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225358c543a7f44f20878161644a9cfa84\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: How is it that this course of action was not followed years ago, like when National was the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f563e407704041e794dcb75c09bcf5d8\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: National members, who tend to be lions in Opposition, were lambs when they were in Government. I think the then Minister of Trade said that he did not think that the WTO was the appropriate area. I know that nothing actually happened under the National Government on this issue for 9 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd89036a137e434284e0408eda5bfe39\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Australian Apple Access Group, which had in its submission on the draft import risk assessment that the final import risk assessment report be released by 30 June 2006, and, if this date is not achieved, what action will he take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2ecd9f3cd84dffa1eb4c72ac75773d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen that from the apples action group. That group knows, of course, that the timing is in the hands of Biosecurity Australia; it is not in our hands. It is possible, of course, at any time to take this matter to the WTO disputes process. The difficulty is that the moment we do that the import risk assessment process would stop immediately and the WTO process, I am advised, would take 3 to 6 years, so we would be shooting ourselves in the foot to do what that member is implying we should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b7bc830cbae4e6d86a405e47e7ab366\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u002228a3d0a34df64fb98a5e28bcd616aaa5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228a3d0a34df64fb98a5e28bcd616aaa5\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E The Hon Dover Samuels was with us in the select committee only an hour or so ago. I am sure he is on his way to the House. I seek leave to have the question dealt with later in question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8839343432440f8860957a9214576bc\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225554a559649347d9b85f448c9a6147cf\u0022\u003EEconomic Development, Associate Minister\u2014Policy Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edf4f42adfe34068ac05d70b8736860f\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Economic Development: What part has he played in general policy development as an Associate Minister for Economic Development since taking up the role?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022846ba30ad8a1450495c33682378baa53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022846ba30ad8a1450495c33682378baa53\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Associate Minister for Economic Development: Dover Samuels has been involved in policy development at several levels, with a particular focus on economic policies that have enhanced M\u0101ori participation in the New Zealand economy. He notes that M\u0101ori unemployment has more than halved under this Labour-led Government so his work is obviously paying off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297fccc76aacd4ad39bc62952fd5d400c\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Associate Minister seen the statement in the Independent of 22 March by a Mr Dover Samuels, who claims to be a former district councillor, complaining that 400 days after the aquaculture legislation was passed no aquaculture management areas had been established, and that there was \u201Chuge frustration\u201D amongst coastal M\u0101ori about the unworkability of the legislation, and can he tell the House whether, as Associate Minister for Economic Development, he is able to confirm this sorry state of affairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022343a5be847d74721a8de2ce44b1a0011\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the member, the answer to the first part of the question is yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c72c7b23cf744d486a0868a1fbbea24\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen the statement in the Independent of 22 March by a Mr Dover Samuels complaining that: \u201CA number of hapu in my area are just so frustrated that nothing is happening,\u201D, and that he \u201Cintended to pursue the AMA aquaculture issue further with PPSC members.\u201D, and can he advise the House whether he is able, as Associate Minister for Economic Development, to confirm this sorry state of affairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2bd5b406ac3408597609420dd31d4aa\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Hon Dover Samuels, the answer to the first part of the question is yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c73e9e7805af461cbfd9d5e64a68d845\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen a statement in the Independent of 22 March by a Mr Dover Samuels that in relation to aquaculture economic development he \u201Cintended to pursue the AMA aquaculture issue further with PPSC members.\u201D, and can he tell the House why he then voted against a committee inquiry into aquaculture only 2 hours ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a773b1952ba4a3ebdb4d69aa58606da\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Associate Minister for Economic Development, the Hon Dover Samuels, in answer to the first part of the question, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226682c4fbba3142fea5b60217abcc7d7b\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why he was speaking out in the Independent against the aquaculture legislation for his local hap\u016B in his local area, yet voted against an inquiry on aquaculture only 2 hours ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271797e5f0e3541989208bad6048dcedc\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Associate Minister for Economic Development, yes. [Interruption] The question was: \u201CCan the Minister explain \u2026\u201D. Yes, he can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267c2a1ef05e74f73ac047d115ce1907f\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the report on Television One\u2019s Te Karere programme last night that said: \u201CHis political future looks uncertain and there is a possibility of him losing his ministerial position.\u201D, and is he aware whether this is because his senior colleague the Minister for Economic Development, Trevor Mallard, has no confidence in him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad776e3904134bf28e1e8dfb09b8781a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Hon Dover Samuels, Associate Minister for Economic Development, the answer to the first part of the question is yes. It is also his understanding that the Minister for Economic Development has confidence in him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5dbd03e43b74d4798b8bb3c8fb8b905\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Independent article in which Dover Samuels speaks out against aquaculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c04bc085dd74ed083d9a58191d0fc8e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220b21740082b4fcc9ab7e4ca408b0098\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table my appeal to the Primary Production Committee for an inquiry into aquaculture, which Dover Samuels voted against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc49291daf54cfe8264f3fbc4406f97\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f71c1f020a5c42e4839e75403032fcd8\u0022\u003ELandcorp\u2014M\u0101ori Land\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e585bc9aadfe41fd8b3bab9e99df4871\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for State Owned Enterprises: Ki tana whakapono, e tika ana m\u0101 Kaporeihana Whenua e hoko te whenua ki t\u0113tahi rangatira t\u016Bmataiti, ar\u0101, te whenua i murua mai r\u0101 i te hunga M\u0101ori hei p\u0101 t\u016Bwatawata; m\u0113n\u0101 \u0101e, he aha ai, m\u0113n\u0101 k\u0101o, he aha ai hoki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Does he believe it is appropriate for Landcorp to sell land, that was taken from M\u0101ori for defence purposes and then transferred to Landcorp, to a private owner; if not, why not?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022092b8409120c45f8b0ebb2af152418dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022092b8409120c45f8b0ebb2af152418dc\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E I expect all State-owned enterprises to comply with the State-Owned Enterprises Act and the Public Works Act. I am advised that Landcorp\u2019s policy is to alert the Office of Treaty Settlements before commencing any sale. If the Office of Treaty Settlements does not want the land then it is offered for commercial sale, subject of course to the caveats in the State-Owned Enterprises Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278c67810cd9e4537aa546a6862a03515\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What consultation took place with the hap\u016B of T\u016Bwharetoa, Hikairo, and Whanganui about the sale by Landcorp of the Taurewa sheep station, which is part of the seven T\u0101whai north and \u014Ckahukura M\u0101ori land blocks taken by the Crown in 1913 as a defence training ground?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229890222e08c4b93ba358b7c679ef009\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Although I am not briefed on all operational matters to do with Landcorp, it is my understanding that the procedure is as I referred to previously. From memory, there would have been a section 27B memorial placed on the land so that if in the future a claim is successful, then it would be resumed by the Crown and offered through offer-back provisions to the original owners. I am also aware that T\u016Bwharetoa, led by the leader of the member\u2019s party\u2019s new friend, is doing a lot of work in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213b98457401a4cd38ca3e9e6d9dd0457\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government intend to learn the lesson of Paraparaumu Airport, which was taken from M\u0101ori, was eventually sold on to private interests, despite the policy and the legislation requiring other action, and was the subject of a select committee examination, which all happened under the National Party when it was last in power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a2b11a1eb45482bb8ffe4b6cbd28188\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am one of those who hope we can learn the lessons of history from that case. I think it is fair to say to both members who are asking about this particular issue that the relationship between the Minister responsible and the purchaser of the land is not quite as close as it was in the case of Paraparaumu Airport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226db50bce03244d83ba640fcdb8c7704f\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister not think it unusual that the land was advertised for sale a week prior to hearings of the Waitangi Tribunal inquiry into the national park taking place at the Chateau Tongariro, which is only 5 kilometres away from the Taurewa Station?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f86a0f1239c44f93bba6a4a547ef233a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I was not aware of that timing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a826a158684ab0bce4b921aca01597\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the protective mechanism for surplus Crown land failed to protect the surplus Landcorp property at Taurewa, particularly in terms of the possibility of land-banking that property?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfaa57fa107d42c48a29c31a502b6a01\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is my understanding that, as with a number of other cases of this type, before the land was disposed of the Office of Treaty Settlements was notified. Even if it had not been, the section 27B memorial\u2014the caveat that sits on the title\u2014makes it clear that the land can be resumed into Crown ownership if there is a finding of a sort that the member obviously wants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf42a0cade44483d87453b3310caca3d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Why were the \u014Ckahukura and T\u0101whai land blocks not offered back to the original owners when the Government decided it no longer needed them for defence purposes, and can we take it that the lack of due process followed is an indication that the Government is prepared to have one law for all dogs but many different laws for M\u0101ori land law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534dc9099c72402e97732e5bad37bd70\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have no idea of when that land was transferred from the Ministry of Defence to Landcorp. Landcorp obviously has hundreds of thousands of hectares and many, many blocks around the country and, unless I am asked questions that detail a particular block, I cannot answer those questions. I do not carry the details in my head of how those thousands of land blocks were obtained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d5bcd8144bf49dbacb5b04ce4914c92\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It now seems to be a practice of Government Ministers simply to say that not enough detail has been provided in questions so they cannot give the answers. In this case, the question is pretty clear. It is about Landcorp selling land that was taken from M\u0101ori for defence purposes, then subsequently transferred to Landcorp prior to the sale. It would seem to me that a Minister looking into this issue in the 4 hours this morning that he had to look at it might have simply asked the question of how many blocks taken from M\u0101ori for defence purposes Landcorp has sold. I do not think the number would be a particularly large one. For the Minister to say he is unaware indicates that he is completely uninterested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7340cf1f8e449fa938bdeaeb8309ad8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his point of order. The answer may not have satisfied the member, but the Minister certainly did address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587723f074f740bbbb7586a68c6312f8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: As a matter of precedent to be followed in this case, how was the much-vaunted one law for all applied in the case of the Paraparaumu Airport sale?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f92c8d1e96a4814ae71f0f84b56e510\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a long bow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022409a4ec7824a4d359d9203e68e820f40\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding in that case\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b72613aa4211415e910eadd5401de4c2\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a192050d07064bf8a2481a2f2ec407ea\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have some sympathy with you, Mr Brownlee, actually. I know that the question is being asked in the context of an ongoing series of questions, but maybe the specific supplementary question could tie it back, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c0adfbda6834cc8a3373106de32cfb3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. With respect, there is a recently passed law in this country that states that if the Government is selling any land that was procured under the Public Works Act, then it must first offer it to the owners or family who first had that land taken from them. It is a pretty fundamental principle I am trying to enunciate here. We have a question about one law for all, and I want to know whether, as a precedent for the future, the Government intends to follow \u201Cthe\u201D law or the one applied in the Paraparaumu Airport case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a40c15ac0140e7aeb64683f5749135\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. That is a clarification, and it does relate to the principal issue. Would the Hon Trevor Mallard please address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5ce01f3c5364d778d732813d4c93d8f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, the Government will follow the law and encourage all State-owned enterprises to do that. The one caveat I should make clear to members is that these laws have been passed at different times, and I am not sure when this land was transferred from the Ministry of Defence to the Department of Lands and Survey or to Landcorp. Therefore, if the particular block had been named I would have been able to get the history of it. Of course, as the Minister for State Owned Enterprises, I can say that these are operational matters and that it would be absolutely wrong for me to tell Landcorp who to sell the land to and who not to sell to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220212e1de3bf04c9ea7d2827840cd42dd\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the land taken during World War II for a military airfield at Raglan was turned into a golf course in 1969, which resulted in a massive dispute for the people of Tainui-\u0100whiro, led by Eva Rickard, and does he not think it ironic that the Taurewa Station is also being sold for the purposes of developing a golf course and grand apartments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2182c78f5e4ce2aaf4575f222a6108\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly am well cognisant of Eva Rickard\u2019s work around Raglan, and I would not count on a non-M\u0101ori owner doing that development yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc8eb86ba0e1492dbeb9e3eb2ec2d519\u0022\u003EFamily Start Programmes\u2014District Health Board Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a6433e7953c4067b3feb1445696febc\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is he satisfied that all district health board funding for Family Start programmes is being correctly applied; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00224fbce89533f6447e89ce3bd2346afbdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fbce89533f6447e89ce3bd2346afbdc\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E No, not entirely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237758cf511844c649c8a5c961e1f5b99\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister satisfied that Family Start contracts awarded through district health boards have been contracted in a manner untainted by personal considerations and benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f91f9d0fb647628bc2843fb0698ffe\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member may be aware that one such contract involving the Southland District Health Board is now currently under investigation, and has been for a matter of weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022781b7466c8474dcea85a075fe7cd74bb\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government increased investment in Family Start?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2227ce21eaf49f2bcd2995d3bc096fe\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because Family Start works. Last year the Government funded a $10 million expansion of Family Start to 11 new sites, bringing the total to 27 programmes around the country. Family Start is about building strong families and enabling them to work towards bright futures for our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e258edda7148bfaf0a293792055fd7\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: In what way were the best interests of the most vulnerable children in Invercargill put first when the Southland District Health Board rejected Barnardos\u2019 proposal and awarded the $3.6 million Family Start contract to a trust reported to consist of three family members, two of whom hold senior positions with that very same Southland District Health Board? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229efff817e2874bd0baec8c565c270b87\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The two people who hold senior positions with the Southland District Health Board have both stepped aside pending the results of a financial audit. The transfer of the Family Start programme to a new trust has already been effected, and the children and families of Invercargill have noticed seamlessness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e3979e90a9c4f578732e70c1fa4e30c\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Southland District Health Board first become aware of potential corruption within Murihiku Wh\u0101nau Services and its administration of Family Start Invercargill, and how much of the $3.6 million contract has been paid to Murihiku Wh\u0101nau Services so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4b5a277b7f4683aa54871991eb2599\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Southland District Health Board carefully does not use the words \u201Cpotential corruption\u201D, and neither do I. There are, however, certainly more questions than answers around that contract at the moment. I am not sure when the board first became aware of the issue, and I cannot remember when I first became aware of it, either, but it was about 3 or 4 weeks ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d70bbde858dc4c9998b90c4d181f5c76\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many other Family Start contracts have been awarded by, and to, the same people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d547b1c7544875afd2543f54a7c5a2\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of any.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275cc1d5fc8364f849eaaa3c6e6388517\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister satisfied that no other district health boards are awarding Family Start and other contracts to trusts run by board members and senior management staff; if not, will he now ask all district health board members and senior staff to disclose their personal interests in the millions of dollars that should be going to our most vulnerable families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215559204d2004f5790624a77cdfe7dc5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the other four Family Start programmes funded through district health boards\u2014that is, the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board, the Wairarapa District Health Board, the Nelson Marlborough District Health Board, and the Otago District Health Board\u2014continue appropriately and to a high standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002232158b224657495fac6e56668bf5b87b\u0022\u003EExporters\u2014Government Assistance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfa210d4c2d342a98e0d051f4ed18f4c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: What steps is the Government taking to assist exporters enter key overseas markets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226f7b06095f554310a154456f60784a98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f7b06095f554310a154456f60784a98\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Substantial, through the Beachheads programme, export awards, and Export Year. The Beachheads programme provides office solutions, clustering with New Zealand companies, access to expert and market advice and support, and an entry point to the contacts and networks needed to grow an export business. Beachheads is in place in the United Kingdom, the United States, Singapore, Dubai, and soon my colleague Jim Sutton will open it in Tokyo. Seventy high-quality companies\u2014and I emphasise that; they have to go through a rigorous selection process\u2014have joined the programme so far, with 35 in the last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbaec1e655064c24a0ed5e323fe2273c\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: What other steps is the Government taking to ensure that our export performance improves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c652ada1132043a7b4ee9b1ac489f3fd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: We have designated 2007 as Export Year, in order to help improve New Zealand\u2019s productivity and growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220213f4138bc44b2c956dea6e9fa86cdf\u0022\u003ETransit New Zealand\u2014Commercial Investment Projects\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290bf64c40a6042bd9704b1e5cac9777c\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Is he concerned that Transit New Zealand\u2019s active opposition to a number of commercial investment projects is significantly impeding economic development right across New Zealand, and what does he intend to do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002258d6fce46ebf4b199f0c5857bb3fa125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258d6fce46ebf4b199f0c5857bb3fa125\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Acting Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E No, but I freely acknowledge the tensions between the desire for local economic development and the desire for Transit to ensure that State highways are not congested within a decade or two of being built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022039c58f3748d441d83ce1ee439b313d4\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that the Rodney Economic Development Trust, which is contracted to implement the Rodney District Council\u2019s economic development strategy, has calculated the cost to the district of Transit\u2019s policy at 6,251 lost jobs and $129 million in lost export earnings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a5fb452cf24937a612d358422399cd\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of issues in general around the Rodney district, particularly in Wellsford and Warkworth. Warkworth is a very interesting case in point, because now the proposition is that there be a bypass built around a bypass because of earlier land-use mistakes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022506993f994e446bfae381e80ddc45551\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That was 50 years ago!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c60fd4a2bc614cc1b4bdd977713a1051\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: If it was built 50 years ago, I ask Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith whether that means that in every town in this country we continue to build a bypass around a bypass around a bypass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb6b24bfedc94dcf84b18cb6189c7f06\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: A triple bypass!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82ebc5d2b9f4eb2bc526918b45b4b5f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is a triple bypass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006dcefe18ad49c59bbdab37b59ec9a2\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give a good example of Transit New Zealand working in close cooperation with developers to achieve economic development in the region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5655419b6644871975536c97990c19d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can give many examples, but the member asked for one example. So I would offer the successful Smart Growth programme in the Western Bay of Plenty, which to date has been predicated on a strong commitment to collaboration and partnership between Transit, local authorities, and developers. That partnership is called Access, from memory. It is a significant level of cross-agency collaboration, and the benefits of Smart Growth are apparent in a number of planning exercises currently under way in the Western Bay of Plenty area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5c407c0358431980d0dc89171688a3\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s answer in regard to Warkworth, is he aware that for some considerable period of time Transit gave the developers and the Rodney District Council encouragement for that development, and pulled the plug at relatively the last minute; if he is aware of that, can he explain why Transit took such an action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200ac62cc8f0e4aa4a7fe1c673a4eda67\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I suspect there is a measure of truth in the member\u2019s question, and I suspect that the reason for that will be the passage of the Land Transport Management Act. The point about Warkworth or Wellsford, if I may say this, is not that the locals decide on a particular solution, right or wrong, but that the locals and Transit work together for a solution, and if there is anything I can do to facilitate that I am happy to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a941f6fda6456ea943bf366362cb62\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the Rodney Economic Development Trust that Transit\u2019s ability to listen to local concerns is so bad that \u201Cmeaningful consultation is dead\u201D, and \u201Cthere is no point in working hard to encourage international companies and investment if a Government department is hell-bent on stopping them.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282829962da354cce832b072d136b9add\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of tensions in that particular relationship. But it does take two to fight. I would instance a few other examples: MasterFoods, just south of Wanganui; Frankton Flats, just out of Queenstown, which itself was a difficult relationship until more recently; and Milton, south of where I live in Dunedin, etc., where Transit and the local planning folk have managed to work together to a mutually successful outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4be6c3d2334413ba440c9e942632b70\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall giving a commitment to the people of Warkworth before the last election that: \u201CIf I am still Minister of Transport after the election, or if not, my successor, will come to Rodney in October for 2 days. We will travel between Wellsford and Warkworth, meet with everybody, and bring the Auckland Regional Council and other interested parties to get this resolved.\u201D, and given that we are only 1 day away from April of the following year, has he done so yet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202cfcd32800d4b468f2087eb9f0a1290\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It would be a pleasure, indeed, to return to Rodney and meet with John Law and others again. Just now my diary makes that a little problematic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f31acfef81964bd1bb5de3699da4a571\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe it makes sense for a knowledge economy zone in Rodney, the largest industrial development in Auckland, to proceed with only 15 percent of the planned investment because Transit New Zealand refuses to spend $5 million on motorway on-ramps and off-ramps?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c734dfa4adc4eee954cc4e1855b98ca\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Intuitively my inclination is to challenge the figures, because if $5 million would buy an 85 percent improvement in economic development it would be the sort of thing that Transit would want to fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e442a82f1c54d3895083eeb709cc54a\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister explain the large increase in legal services incurred by Transit, being an overexpenditure of $2.5 million in 2004-05, and Transit increasing its legal fees budget by $2 million for the 2005-06 year\u2014costs that related to submissions on land-use applications\u2014and what will the Government provide to applicants in those hearings so that they have equality of representation in any court or council hearing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422cea573eb9448cb1b1d1318b3ecc2a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: If it is true that Transit New Zealand has been overexpending its legal budget by $2.5 million, I would simply suggest that that would be a whole lot less than having to build a bypass around a bypass around a bypass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f7b61f52acd408095c58f3dc1657cdd\u0022\u003ETransport Safety\u2014Improvements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dcaea515fc74c1eb7b39e8939eacc0a\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Transport Safety: What has the Government done since the establishment of the transport safety portfolio to improve transport safety in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022eed4fba5f80841c6bdc4f118a2c16d4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eed4fba5f80841c6bdc4f118a2c16d4f\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety):\u003C/span\u003E A lot, actually. The Government has introduced a number of important changes to improve safety across all modes of transport since the establishment of the portfolio of transport safety in July 2004. Of particular note is the continuing reduction in the road toll. The Government has passed key legislation to enhance the framework for safety and security in line with the Government\u2019s transport strategy objectives and this includes changes to Acts of Parliament, regulations, and rules covering a wide range of safety and security improvements across all modes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac0e9c049dd4aa19f2b6554f7c1b0fb\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that 80 people have died, and a further 70 have been seriously injured by trains\u2014a total of 150 people\u2014in the 4 years to June 2004, which are the latest figures that I could find, and does he believe that to be satisfactory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022985905b7b89b41788d9fd8fdfa002327\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: First, the question relates to the period before the initial question; the question the member just asked relates to the period before the portfolio of transport safety was established, but I will still do my best to answer the question. I tell the member that a large number of those fatalities, regrettably, occurred not at level crossings but at places where people were illegally on the railway track. I am particularly concerned when train drivers are faced with the horror and trauma of a person standing on the tracks in front of them, with obvious results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc5263e1c08743ecb7dfc1ca66cbd470\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister for Transport Safety embarrassed by the New Zealand Herald article today that shows that he is the only Cabinet Minister\u2014or member of the executive, actually\u2014to have had two self-drive accidents, and is he even more embarrassed by the fact that the road toll, which has been declining for the last decade, turned round and started increasing directly at the time he was appointed Minister for Transport Safety?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c34d94fc609c4ec1b63468cd20d17717\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I never asked that member those sorts of questions when he was the transport Minister, but perhaps I should have, because I would have had a great deal of fun. I can tell the member that, yes, it is quite correct that my ministerial car has had two minor scrapes to the paintwork, one attributable to me and one to my spouse. I can also tell the member that I am pleased to be able to say that the road toll for the last 12 months, going back from today, is 380. I would like to see it improve further. I have not put out any statements on that, because I am aware that these things can go up and down when we have a bad month, a bad holiday period, or a spell of bad weather. What I can tell the member\u2014[Interruption]\u2014if the member is prepared to listen, is that 380 people have died on our roads, and that is the lowest-ever figure for a 12-month period, back from today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022575844666f9140f0bd02ccad8f76cae6\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister share my view that the Government has addressed many of the safety issues as far as the New Zealand shipping industry is concerned by making it difficult for the industry to survive? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a262e483984b4315bd1f689b5336b400\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot claim the credit for the last part of the member\u2019s comments. Mr Williamson might like to take a bow here. What I can say is that there have been significant initiatives in terms of maritime safety, and I am very proud to have played a part in those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1030511773043db986dc018ac4bb8e8\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister commit to making changes to the legislation regarding level crossing safety, including barrier arms and vegetation clearance, given that 36 percent of fatalities and over 40 percent of cases of serious injuries caused by rail collisions occur at level crossings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e43f00a9cc411084aea094d95aad5b\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s figures are correct, but I also want to tell the member that many of those crossings would be closed if they had to have barrier arms and items of that nature put in place, because it would simply be uneconomic to keep them open. Many of those crossings are actually legitimate crossings with very low vehicle loads, such as crossings to farms, and so on. But the level crossing issue is one that causes myself and ONTRACK considerable grief, simply because of the stupidity of many of the people who drive through crossings when the warning signs are there and the bells are ringing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb48d3b460f84d8d9a5a2d9d437cb6f7\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Should Toll NZ have an explicit responsibility to provide clear indications, such as a headlight on at all times and several toots of the horn, when their trains, which can slice through motor vehicles like a hot knife through butter, are approaching level crossings; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f5ffcddac134f8eab2be311d65c6d07\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is an absolute requirement of all locomotives working on Toll Rail operations to have their headlights on at all times. Whether the horn is sounded is largely dependent on the operational policy applying, depending on the type of crossing, the location, the time of day or night, and whether it is in an urban environment, etc. I think we would have a lot more complaints if the horns were sounded in the way the member suggests on every occasion, day or night, whether or not there are vehicles nearby, or any other matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229208e0fde0b4c809cbeb778aa51e11a\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a graph of New Zealand\u2019s road toll showing the massive turn-round in the positive direction, in line with the member\u2019s appointment to the transport safety portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cdbcc83a8544624b1500312dc85f5d4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568b9768b3714c858b8bdb54402a6041\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document from the Ministry of Transport entitled Rail Safety Targets: Position Paper, December 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dcbdb7fba37e4648bf11120085193bda\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards\u2014Laboratory Contracts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225770ed1cdf35466996e79665c49deb2b\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What reports, if any, has he seen on the tendering of district health board laboratory contracts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00227287eb9f47d14e958e86a0981b78d1ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227287eb9f47d14e958e86a0981b78d1ad\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen a number of reports, particularly relating to processes currently under way in the Wellington region, Otago, and Southland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d24d6874bc1d4599a30bd8fbd6768568\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen the views of Hutt Valley general practitioners who say that their collaborative working relationship with the current labs are at risk and that patient service may suffer, and how does he think that a district health board facing a $10 million dollar deficit can do a job better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a72f6d99014d44b5a066c5bda765259b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen the views of the Hutt Valley general practitioners, and I am aware, sadly, that the private contractor\u2014or one of the private contractors\u2014currently providing the service is running a public relations campaign over the names of five pathologists and targeting patients. Service coverage and access are matters for the district health boards, which must assure me that patients overall will not be negatively affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228df2d900f5dd441eb90ecf898921df95\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Are all district health boards proposing to bring community laboratory services in-house?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b384c2052c714f92bfc43ebfdc127169\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, not all district health boards are proposing to bring community service laboratories in-house. Many district health boards are putting laboratory services out to tender, but the tender results differ. In Otago or Southland, for example, the outcome may well be that the private sector wins out over the public sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7fbf06dbb3341ec88f226c714538264\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: How can taxpayers be sure that a district health board considering awarding itself a major contract is not a conflict of interest and that the tender costings do not involve any cross-subsidy from another part of the district health board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f452e3857c04819a03b6dcdec631216\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister of Health, it is my expectation that district health boards conduct their operational affairs in an appropriate manner. I have been advised that in the case of the Hutt District Health Board and Capital and Coast District Health Board tender processes for laboratory services, a probity auditor was appointed and has not raised any concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022999d94452ce7472a87f29efaa7b5b7b0\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen reports by the New Zealand Medical Association that state there is a risk that laboratory services will become fragmented, and why are some district health boards contracting out their laboratory services to the private sector because they get better services, yet here is a Wellington district health board that wants to do the complete opposite?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd3c802334f4d30a98120362983262e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: One assumes the market is at play. I have a question for the member: why, when she cancelled Southern Community Laboratory\u2019s contract in Auckland when she was on the board of the Auckland District Health Board, and it complained to the public and to the Minister saying that the sky was going to fall in, did she not do something about it? Why is it that that member took a rational decision then but wants to do populism now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d35168bd8c854ec2b27dea760c68f313\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: When was the last time the Government took over something from the private sector that maintained quality and cost less?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eb134fe396046498c5c29d6fff031d6\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure, but quite possibly when we bought back Air New Zealand or when we took back rail. If the member is asking about the health sector, it was quite possibly when the West Coast District Health Board stepped into primary health. I seek leave to table a one-pager by Valley Diagnostic Ltd, which states to patients that this may be bad for them and that they may not be able to get testing within their region any longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022552247fba2074bb8bb2dbdcaaddc5ada\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222232165ae758448a9816f8e6c44888c1\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I did not want to interrupt my colleague Dr Blue\u2019s question. When Minister Harry Duynhoven sought leave to table a document, there was objection to it being tabled from the member Dr Cullen. He is pointing to Minister Mallard. In fact, the Minister Harry Duynhoven did table a document. There was objection, and it should not have been tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247af1e37a4484f21a6298e3fc8ce7af6\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Can I please make it clear that I did withdraw my objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a666d636d8094116a9bac9d79ebe8f93\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was not sure whether there was an objection, which is why I asked whether there was. Frequently, there are murmurings around and people do, in fact, when it is repeated, either object clearly or do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a56e750f9f246108dd216996967333d\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The point of order is that, as Speaker, you did not put the question again as to whether there was any objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a8c0dadfabd4551b9781bf3ec287422\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0669b84b25545efa291fee643ca6459\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we did not hear it over here. It was very clear on this side of the House that there was objection from the Minister, and that was not clarified from our point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238bd108f7478423e886812366435805e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I will speak louder next time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f96e05fa0204b70a9414f98b109290d\u0022\u003EMeat Board Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8b1e5fc336f4f809505ee9afdf46172\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc4434ced46b4d02abd0aefbfdc504a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc4434ced46b4d02abd0aefbfdc504a9\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Meat Board Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Primary Production Committee for consideration, and that the committee present its final report on or before 27 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe Meat Board Amendment Bill clarifies the provisions within the Meat Board Act 2004 regarding the allocation of access to meat export quota markets. The bill will uphold the original objectives of the Meat Board Act 2004. But, by removing potential ambiguity in the original drafting, the legislative framework will ensure that the Meat Board can continue its longstanding practice of allocating quota to producers of export-qualifying meat who are registered meat exporters, regardless of whether they currently export meat products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill also clarifies the fee collection powers of the board. Once again, this is to remove a potential ambiguity, to make it clear that the board may charge fees to applicants for quota, whether or not they have exported meat. I wish to make it clear that the bill does not modify the original objectives or intent of the Meat Board Act 2004, or the policy of the Meat Board in regard to the allocation of meat quotas or the charging of fees. The sole aim of the bill is to remove potential ambiguity, and thereby improve business certainty for all market participants and for the Meat Board, which is the administrator of the meat quota allocation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe bill, then, is technical in nature and limited in scope. In these circumstances, I anticipate\u2014hopefully, anyway\u2014that the committee\u2019s consideration will be of shorter duration than usual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EUnder the Meat Board Act 2004 the Meat Board allocates, monitors, and manages all tariff quotas for meat of New Zealand origin. These quota markets in the European Union and the United States enable New Zealand meat products to enter those markets on preferential terms, with low or zero tariffs. Our meat industries are very much dependent on export markets. Around 83 percent of lamb production and 87 percent of beef production is exported. Approximately half of all New Zealand\u2019s meat exports go to the European Union and the United States tariff quota markets. I must say to the House that when I was speaking to the National Farmers Union in the UK recently, I found that farmers in Britain were a bit gobsmacked to hear those figures and find out how export-oriented our agricultural sector is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EQuota access is of significant value to the industry, obviously, and to the economy. The viability of New Zealand\u2019s meat industry depends, to a significant extent, on sustainable access to these preferred markets. Since at least 1997 the Meat Board has allocated quota on the premise that meat industry participants who produce export-qualifying meat and hold an export registration certificate are eligible to receive quota\u2014whether or not they are currently exporting meat products. Export registration certification is easy to obtain and does not limit the number or type of exporters. The amendment bill will reaffirm the Meat Board\u2019s approach to quota allocation, which will ensure that the financial benefits associated with New Zealand\u2019s preferential access to quota markets will potentially be widely available to industry members. That is the point of the original Act, which this amendment bill will clarify. It includes some 30,000 sheep, beef, and dairy farmers, as well as those involved in the meat-processing and exporting sectors of the meat industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EAlthough the New Zealand public may not fully recognise the economic and social importance of our land-based industries, the Government\u2014and I am sure many members of this House\u2014see the primary sector as critical to both our economic and social well-being. New Zealand primary industries collectively provide two-thirds of our export goods. Primary industries therefore provide the foreign exchange to pay for imported goods and to maintain our living standards. Put simply, New Zealand\u2019s social and economic well-being is dependent upon the success of our primary industries. There will be no First World health, education, environmental, or even infrastructural systems unless those sectors of industry are successful in New Zealand\u2019s interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EOver the last 15 years productivity growth in agriculture, forestry, and related industries has outperformed the rest of our economy. Again, that is a fact I do not think many New Zealanders fully appreciate. Although the New Zealand economy recorded relatively modest average productivity growth of around 1.3 percent during that period, our primary sectors averaged productivity growth of 2.8 percent, which is more than 100 percent of the national average. Other manufacturing industries achieved just 1.1 percent. Those are remarkably successful figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe meat industry makes a significant contribution to the New Zealand economy in terms of its contribution to the gross domestic product, employment, and export earnings. From 1986 to 2002 the contribution of agribusiness to New Zealand\u2019s economic performance rose from 14.2 percent of GDP to 16.5 percent. So, rather than those industries being a set of sunset industries, they are in effect a set of sunrise industries that we should be very grateful to have on our books. In the year ended June 2005, $4.6 billion worth of meat products were exported, which accounted for around 15 percent of the total value of merchandised exports from New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand meat industry is a high-performing and very productive sector by international standards. It has continuously improved its productivity over the last few decades. The industry has also achieved significant product development over the last 30 years. In 1971, 90 percent of export lambs were sent overseas in carcass form; today it is less than 5 percent. Many of us will remember times when freezing chambers around New Zealand were full of frozen lamb carcasses, which were then rendered down for pet food or fertiliser.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe profitability of sheep and beef farms over the last 5 years has been very good. We need to build on those successes if we are to confront the challenges our economy faces. Some of those challenges, of course, are the need to harness our creativity, the need to join global networks and work together to maximise our potential, the need to be customer focused, and the need to adapt to the rapid changes of the global economy. To achieve those things we need a competitive domestic meat industry. By clarifying the quota allocation and fees provisions in the Act of 2004, we will promote business certainty in the meat industry, and thus maintain the meat industry\u2019s substantial and positive contribution to the well-being of all New Zealanders. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4233b4aba404fbb9b89e27d4f22a213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4233b4aba404fbb9b89e27d4f22a213\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E National will support the Meat Board Amendment Bill going to the Primary Production Committee. New Zealand\u2019s access to the quota markets has been hard-earned by this country over decades, and it is of huge economic value to our economy. So we look forward to the submissions we will receive on this bill, and I, as chair of the select committee, look forward to bringing the bill back to the House in a position where it can then be passed into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe original Act to which we are moving the amendment is the Meat Board Act of 2004. I was told at a meeting last Monday of the need to make the amendment. I was contacted by the Minister\u2019s office, and I was briefed in confidence about the issue. On this occasion, I thank the Minister very much for arranging the briefing. It gave us a chance to understand exactly what the bill was about. I also take this opportunity to say that there will be times when a Minister needs to brief members of Parliament who are not part of the Government in strict confidence, and I implore members of Parliament to always treat that confidence carefully. It would be a very difficult situation if members were to treat that confidence lightly\u2014it would make it very difficult for a Minister to be in a position then of being able to brief a member of the Opposition on a matter. So I appreciate the Minister\u2019s involving National in that briefing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAs I understand matters, the reason for this legislation relates to the possible ambiguity of the 2004 Act. At this stage I make no judgment at all about whether the Act as passed in 2004 is in fact ambiguous. Suffice it to say that I accept the advice given by the officials, through the Minister, that there is indeed an issue around that. The process now allows any party interested in the matter to make a submission to the select committee, and we will then consider the points of view raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E I recall the issues quite well at the time of the 2004 consideration, when the select committee grappled with the issues of access to meat quota. If I recall the issues correctly, there were two significant issues that we needed to get our heads around as a select committee. One was a mechanism that did allow any new entrants to ultimately have some access to the quota markets. From my point of view on that select committee, I was keen to ensure that there was a process by which a new, innovative company establishing itself in the market here in New Zealand as a processor of meat suitable for any of the quota markets at least had an opportunity to ultimately get access to those markets. I cannot see any legitimate argument for the quota markets to be closed off on some historical basis and restricted to those people who had previously been there. If that was to happen, the only thing we would successfully do from a \u201CNew Zealand Incorporated\u201D point of view is stifle the necessary innovation still required in the meat industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second issue that I recall we grappled with at the select committee was an issue whereby if any particular participant had access to the quota market and it looked as though, towards the end of any particular season, the participant had not used that market to the fullest extent possible, then there had to be a mechanism by which quota could be traded between the players. I fully accept that argument again, on the basis that at the end of the day this Parliament should be concerned about the way that \u201CNew Zealand Incorporated\u201D can maximise the benefits of those quotas. So in my mind there clearly needed to be a mechanism to allow an end-of-season adjustment between the players involved in the quota markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI have no doubt that when this bill is before the select committee, all the parties who have an interest in access to quota markets will be given a chance to come and air those issues again. As the chair of that select committee, I am sure that I speak for the other members of the select committee, many of whom were not sitting on it at the time of the 2004 election, when I say that all members of the select committee, who do work well together, will have the opportunity to revisit this matter via the submission process. I am sure that all the arguments presented by submissioners to the select committee will be discussed and well and truly examined in the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI note that the Minister has given us a 27 July deadline and then asked that we, hopefully, progress this matter quicker than that. I can almost guarantee that we will be able to do that. The select committee workload at this stage is not very busy. In fact, at the select committee today, I took the opportunity to try to bring more work before the committee. I was taken by the comments of the Associate Minister for Economic Development, the Hon Dover Samuels, when he publicly raised the issue of the lack of progress in aquaculture. He said he was quite happy to work with members of the select committee to see whether we could assist the Government out of a bind that it has obviously got into, whereby past legislation has absolutely gazumped further development in aquaculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI put it to the select committee today that maybe the Hon Dover Samuels was indeed a man of his word and would be prepared to work with us to see whether there was a way to fill in some of the spare time we have on the select committee, initiate an inquiry, and assist the Government. I was absolutely staggered, I must say, when the Hon Dover Samuels then voted against us initiating that select committee inquiry. I guess, from the point of view of the Hon Jim Anderton, that does just clear the desk and give us plenty of time to look at these issues and call for submissions. Hopefully I can get this bill back into the House as quickly as possible\u2014and substantially before the 27 July deadline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI look forward to working through the issues on the select committee, which now includes as a member Colin King, member of Parliament for Kaikoura. On looking through the notes we have, I realise that it had previously slipped my mind that he was a director of Meat and Wool New Zealand and therefore a director of the New Zealand Meat Board, which examined these quota issues, right up until his recent resignation. So, among the many experts we have around our select committee, we will have Colin King, member of Parliament, with an absolutely intimate knowledge of the discussions that have occurred within Meat and Wool New Zealand and within the New Zealand Meat Board about the way the legislation has been working. In fact, from the point of view of a former director of Meat and Wool New Zealand, we will know whether the board itself had any concerns or whether the officials, and, thereby, the Minister, are the ones with the concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b139bc103c4357a33635b49a7e032d\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: I need someone to reflect my intimate knowledge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022157508dc658b438db937b0498ee0bf53\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, Doug Woolerton interrupts and says we need someone to replace his intimate knowledge of the industry. That is true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIt still defies belief that Doug Woolerton was taken off the Primary Production Committee. After years and years of valuable service, the New Zealand First leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, told Doug Woolerton the party no longer wanted him to make a contribution to New Zealand agriculture, and therefore he was taken off the select committee. As a reporter said to me not 2 hours ago, that particular committee must be one of the select committees in Parliament that truly does not reflect MMP. It has four National members of Parliament and four Labour members of Parliament. None of the smaller parties are represented on that select committee at all, and I say that is a shame for the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI will finish by taking the opportunity, after talking about the valuable contribution we expect from Colin King, to acknowledge in the House today his replacement on the board of Meat and Wool New Zealand: Andrew Fox, a well-known North Canterbury farmer. He is also a director of PPCS Ltd, so I am not sure which particular camp he will be in when he appears before us at the select committee. But I take this opportunity to congratulate Andrew Fox on his election to Meat and Wool New Zealand; I sure he will make a valuable contribution to it. We look forward to the bill coming to the select committee, and I assure members of our complete cooperation in order to get it back here as quickly as possible, and in good shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u00227063e8f0cc164ad3bad918e9c42a5243\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227063e8f0cc164ad3bad918e9c42a5243\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a brief call in support of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022514e6d17e79646bf964f0fbf251cc2cd\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, do 10 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fcee25dc6e448ea8524336161c8b4bf\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY\u003C/span\u003E: I thank David Carter. He has been a good chair of the Primary Production Committee, of which I am a member, and I am delighted that his party will support the bill at the select committee. I look forward to a good discussion there. I say to Doug Woolerton that we do miss him. He was a good member of that select committee in the last Parliament and we miss him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EThis is a very small bill that is really more of a technical nature. It is important that this issue should be fixed. It is important that all the meat we produce in this country is properly exported. This bill will ensure that we allocate access to quota markets to meat industry participants who hold export registration certification, whether or not they currently export meat products. This bill removes any potential ambiguity and thereby improves business certainty for all market participants and the Meat Board at any stage of our meat quota allocation. The bill will ensure that the financial benefits associated with New Zealand\u2019s preferential access to quota markets will continue to be available to the wider New Zealand meat industry, optimising positive economic outcomes in the domestic market. With those few words, I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022abf3bd1475174243830fd74855c1319e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abf3bd1475174243830fd74855c1319e\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I also rise in support of this bill going to the Primary Production Committee. It is important that that important select committee\u2014the most powerful committee in Parliament, I would suggest\u2014look at the bill. But the question that remains, of course, is this: how come, so soon after the legislation was passed in the first place, we are back considering these amendments? I guess that in the fullness of time the officials may be able to explain that, but what I think it demonstrates\u2014and the Minister certainly touched on it in his opening comments\u2014is that things are not always as black and white as some of our officials and some members of Parliament might think. So I say to the select committee, of which I am not a member\u2014I was at one stage, but not at the moment\u2014that it should make sure that it goes through the detail with a fine-tooth comb so that we are not back here having to amend it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is important that Meat and Wool New Zealand\u2014the Meat Board, as has been referred to in the bill\u2014has the ability to manage the quota. The reason for that is that we have markets overseas that have taken years to build up. The Minister of Agriculture noted in his comments how important those markets are to the social and economic well-being of New Zealand. I agree with him entirely, and I thank him for his comments. In fact, I was heartened to hear them from the new Minister. The Minister was, of course, in the Lange Government for a little while\u2014the very Government that said this was a sunset industry and the sooner 8,000 farmers walked off the land, the better. So I was heartened to hear the Minister say\u2014and it is obvious to anybody who spends more than 30 seconds studying these industries\u2014how important they are to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EAs the Minister said, 87 percent of beef is exported, as is 88 percent of lamb. That makes New Zealand unique. Nowhere else in the world would one find an economic producer of protein-based, land-based products where the export content of what is produced is as high as that. In fact, in most cases the exact opposite is the case. Mostly one finds that 80 percent, 90 percent, or up to 95 percent of what is produced in a country is consumed in that country, whereas New Zealand has to go out into the world, compete against huge multinationals, and succeed. So I thank the Minister for the initiative of making sure that the quota management system is handled well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ENot too many New Zealanders actually know what such industries do and what this industry is about. The New Zealand Meat Board\u2014operational name, Meat New Zealand\u2014exists to further the interests of New Zealand\u2019s 32,000 meat producers. I got these figures from the parliamentary Bills Digest, but I suspect that the figure of 32,000 is too light. I suspect that it is bringing meat producers down to trade names rather than individual farmers or producers. I suspect that the figure is too light, but I am able to be challenged on it. I know that there are 70,000-odd farmers in New Zealand, and I also know that the dairy industry, which one would not consider to be linked with this, is 40 percent of the meat industry. So it is a meat producer even though its main income would be registered as being dairy-product producers. So I challenge that figure. I have no facts or basis on which to challenge it, I just suspect that it is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe board is there to manage the interests of those producers, and it is funded through a levy on stock slaughter. Its main purpose is to develop and enhance market access. That is its main purpose. I have to say, having just attended a recent meeting with a large number of my colleagues\u2014in fact, I think 32 National caucus members attended the meeting, which was a very good meeting\u2014I was heartened to see just how strong the leadership in that industry is and where it is going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a83c1e1673b47fa8ffaadc57a82d35c\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: Where were the rest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285f477bcdd0a43c68432d13e4048f288\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite interjects. We have heard a lot recently about National members interjecting during question time. I know that some people are annoyed by how many National members are here now. I hasten to add that it particularly annoys the Rt Hon Winston Peters, who, I know, can only ever round up two or three of his own team to support him at any one time. But the fact is that there are 48 National members here, and 32 of them were at the meat and wool meeting just recently. So I say to the member that we are 100 percent behind this industry and this process. This industry produces $4.6 billion, and we overlook that. This industry is often dusted off as some insignificant group of cow cockies from the back of the hills somewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d14be4686a840d59a1ba04891ee02aa\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd140b9f31d4465ae9d195c4157c6d0\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It is $4.6 billion. The Minister said that this economy is very dependent\u2014I would go so far as to say almost totally dependent\u2014on these land-based industries. So we cannot place too much emphasis on the importance of this kind of legislation. The New Zealand Meat Board has a particular role in the regulation of market access, and that is what this amendment is about. We cannot have ambiguity in the market about who controls the quota. We must have tradability, and we must have the right regulations in place. I was heartened to hear the chair of the select committee, the Hon David Carter, a very good colleague and obviously the Opposition spokesman on agriculture, say it is hugely important to make sure that that tradability is maintained. I agree with him entirely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is also important, however, to make sure that the quality of the product exported to those markets measures up to the standard that is put forward in the quota access. If we do not have those quality assurances in place, markets can be damaged beyond repair very quickly. Any ambiguity in respect of what meat should be exported to a tariff market, and how, and when, is absolutely untenable. If that exists in our Act, then we need to fix it. I am sure the select committee will carry out its work very diligently, and the Minister will pass the bill through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ECan I finish by saying that this industry is built on the backs of hard-working mum and dad farmers out there in New Zealand. It is not built on the backs of bureaucrats, or officials, or structures based in Wellington, and we often forget that. We talk in lofty language about the significance of some of these structures, but we forget that we need the producers out there battling away every day to make sure that the product\u2014which it is undisputed is the best in the world\u2014is produced efficiently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThat, I guess, is why it is so important for the Government to provide the right infrastructure for those people to get on with it. In recent times we have seen a Government that has started to take us down the track of losing sight of those basic fundamentals. The fact that we must have competitive access to markets is part of it. It is absolutely important. But the other side of the equation is that we must have a Government framework in place that allows those hard-working farmers in New Zealand who produce this product\u2014the most efficient farmers in the world; the people who produce the best product in the world\u2014to get on with that job and not be tied up in all sorts of brain-dead regulation that spills out of this place and throws up a roadblock in their faces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we learn about this industry, the moment we look at it, is that it has gone from being a bulk commodity, almost 19th century, industry\u2014part of the first Industrial Revolution, as it were\u2014to being a very high-tech, value-added industry. I say to the House today: watch this space. If members have a look at some of the new developments within the meat industry, and at some of the new initiatives around wool development, pasture development, and meat development, they will find that this industry has a strong future. And it will still be a leading industry in this country for three, four, or five generations, despite the fact that most of the Government\u2019s energy\u2014and I am not talking just about the current Government; it is not a political statement\u2014goes into putting all sorts of barriers in its place. I say to the Government that it should take a look at what makes this industry efficient, get out of its road, and let the industry get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022613208c7c2ad4615a7a20b4cf1588c0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022613208c7c2ad4615a7a20b4cf1588c0a\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Meat Board Amendment Bill because we believe in exports and we believe in making right everything that will assist our farmers to export to foreign countries where every single barrier\u2014both tariff and non-tariff\u2014that can be put up against our exports is put up. We must make sure that we have the legislation right to enable our people to go about their business, because there are men and women who work their butts off around the world, on our behalf, to make sure we gain entry into these countries. It is all very well to be talking about getting the beef off the farm and about what should happen with shipping, and all of that sort of thing, but unless we can make the regulations work that enable us to enter these countries on favourable terms we are fighting against the weather, as we say in farming. It just will not happen. I was going to use another colloquial term, but I thought I had better not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI think it is also right to remember, as this legislation is passed through the select committee, that this industry is constantly changing. As previous speakers have said, the industry has gone from being a commodity industry\u2014mainly carcasses shipped overseas\u2014to being an industry dealing in all sorts of finer meats, packaged meats, fancy cuts, etc. I am absolutely positive that the select committee, even without my presence, will make a good job of this. I am alarmed to hear that only Labour and National are represented on it, but nevertheless I am sure that under David Carter\u2019s able chairmanship this bill will be progressed quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI personally do not think it will be quite as easy as one would imagine it should be. I think that this will be, shall we say, an unexpected chance for people who did not think they were heard properly the first time to come along and have a second bite of the cherry. I am sure the experienced members of the committee realise that. When we take meat into another country, or any produce into a quota market in another country, that is seen as a privilege enjoyed by members of meat-processing industries, and so on. There are always new entrants to the processing industry\u2014and Mr Carter referred to this earlier\u2014who want to push the barriers. They say we should be able to export without going through this bureaucratic nonsense, without going through the Meat Board, and without having to rely on these sorts of regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E It is very difficult but necessary to keep those people in some sort of order and to say: \u201CHang on, sunshine, first these criteria must be met, then we will look at your applications.\u201D Again, as the Hon David Carter said, one does not want to stifle enterprise, but that has to be balanced against\u2014excuse the language\u2014stuffing up the markets that have been put in place by previous generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThere is also a change down on the farm in this industry, led from the markets, to have what we can call \u201Cfrom the pasture to the plate\u201D tracking. Great sophistication is entering the farming and production chain in the way of tagging and electronic tagging in order to follow one single beast from a farm, right through to the supermarket counter and on to the plate. I commend the industry for that, because it is a huge undertaking. I must just say, being a little bit controversial, that that is one reason why I cannot understand the outrage of farmers towards the so-called chipping of dogs. In every other part of their industry, the chipping or electronic tracking of animals is right at the forefront of what the market is wanting. It wants those animals tracked from the paddock to the plate, so it is rather naive and quite unbelievable for farmers to say that there will be a big industry built around tracking dogs. That is nonsense, because the whole industry is involved in that process as we speak, and the chipping of dogs will be seen as just another addendum to that as time goes on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EAs mentioned by Shane Ardern, this is a huge industry, and it is one that we in New Zealand First take a great deal of interest in. If we are looking to address our balance of payments problem in this country\u2014brought about by too much consumption and not enough exporting\u2014industries like this are the only places we can look to for the sort of bulk money that we need to address those balance of payments deficits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EEverybody knows that a small percentage increase in a big industry will be what produces the dollars, rather than rushing around looking for the silver bullet, as in the new industries that have years and years of start-up time and are simply incapable of doing the job. So it is the land-based industries that will help this country with its balance of payments deficit, it is the land-based industries that sustain our standard of living, and it is those that we must protect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI do not have much time, like many farmers\u2014or, in my case, ex-farmers\u2014for ticket clippers. Mr Ardern mentioned those. We see far too often people who are to one side commenting and involving themselves in discussions on this industry. They are not directly involved in the industry, they do not take the risks, and they do not put up the money, but they have all sorts of ideas about how these things should work. In my experience they are very big on talking about getting a share of the industry. They always want to get their foot in the door. They always want to take a percentage of the profit without taking a percentage of the risk. It is bills such as this that are designed, not necessarily to keep those people right outside of the door, but certainly to make sure that they serve their time before they come in the door. We certainly understand that aspect of the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI just close by commending the Minister of Agriculture, Jim Anderton. Like Shane Ardern and the Hon David Carter, I well remember when perhaps the Minister was on the other side of the fence from where he is now. I commend him on a speech he made in England\u2014I think it was in Birmingham. I do not know how many farmers there are in Birmingham, but that is where the conference was held. He made the point that within a few hundred kilometres of that conference centre were something like 80 percent of the serious customers of the British market who ate that sort of produce. In our case, we are many, many thousands of kilometres away, yet we are still able to compete with them, unsubsidised, by the good efforts of our mum and dad farmers who have been spoken about before. I commend those people. New Zealand First supports this bill. It is essential that it be passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00227090280d24ab4799962a1cf90fedab9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227090280d24ab4799962a1cf90fedab9e\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Hopefully, it is no secret to those of us gathered in the House today that M\u0101ori tangata whenua have earned their livelihoods through the spilling of blood on abattoir floors throughout the country over many years. Indeed, my first holiday job was at Gear Meat Processing at P\u0113tone, feeding the chain and picking up mountain oysters. Minister Horomia would no doubt confirm that they are delicacies in his area of Tolaga Bay on the East Coast. My honourable colleague from the north, Mr Harawira, also did his training in the freezers and on the gut floor of the now-closed Moerewa freezing works. He considered himself at that time not a freezing worker but a meat processor, and now, of course, he is a parliamentarian. Our co-leader, Dr Pita Sharples, prepared the sheep for slaughter. He was in the shearing gangs that produced fodder for the works. Our other co-leader, as this House will well know, was an amateur vet. She was involved in the artificial insemination of her dairy herd, the bobby calves of which ended up in the meat-processing industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E So, for the record, the M\u0101ori Party has 100 percent involvement in the meat, sheep, and dairy industries. Almost 32,000 are employed in meat processing and manufacturing, many of them tangata whenua. What I am saying should not in any way diminish the contributions of other people\u2014the farmers and former meatworkers who are also present in the House. I mihi to them all. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe industry operates major plants in Dargaville, Karaka, Waitoa, Paeroa, Te Kauwhata, T\u012Brau, Te Puke, Horotiu, Te K\u016Biti, Taumarunui, Wait\u014Dtara, Waipukurau, Takapau, \u014Cringi, and other locations\u2014locations, where, coincidentally, there is a M\u0101ori workforce to support the k\u0101pata kai, the food cupboard, of Europe. Of course, there are all the other locations where meatworks have been closed. They exist no longer, and we must never forget the impact of the devastation of the closure of the meatworks, such as T\u014Dmoana and Whakat\u016B, in which hundreds of families felt the impact of poverty, unemployment, and alienation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EMeat industry products account for about 17 percent of New Zealand merchandise, I am told. The figures are astounding, really. Between 1998 and 1999, 91 percent of lamb, 83 percent of beef, and 79 percent of mutton were exported overseas. In real money terms, as I understand it, New Zealand exports more than $4 billion of beef, sheepmeat, and goat meat, with 65 percent of it going into quota markets that rely on country-specific tariff quotas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis bill is another example of legislation being posited as standing as a model for Aotearoa meeting its international treaty obligations relating to quota markets. The question must be again asked in this Chamber about how the Meat Board Amendment Bill honours the obligations the Crown has to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. This House should be aware that both the courts and the Waitangi Tribunal have determined that the principle of partnership includes the obligation on both parties to act reasonably, honourably, and in good faith. Indeed, the courts have also found that an aspect of the obligation to act in good faith is the duty to make informed decisions through consultation. The Waitangi Tribunal has emphasised the value and appropriateness of consultation in upholding and strengthening the Treaty partnership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EYet what do we have here? M\u0101ori meatworkers we have contacted in the very recent past\u2014in fact, this morning and yesterday\u2014about this bill have absolutely no idea that it is even on the Table. But it gets worse. It seems that the bill, which the Minister is promoting as \u201Coptimising positive economic outcomes in the domestic market\u201D, has not even been passed through the hands and by the eyes of stakeholders in the industry. Meat Industry Association of New Zealand policy adviser Dave Harrison said that the bill had taken the organisation by surprise. The media reports him as commenting: \u201C\u00A0\u2018The bill\u2019s been a bolt out of the blue for us \u2026 It was done without consultation\u2014we haven\u2019t had a chance to form a view on it.\u2019 \u201D So the M\u0101ori Party has to ask whether this is another case of policy change by stealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAlthough we were told that access to quota markets will be kept open to all registered meat exporters, regardless of one\u2019s previous export history, the question has to be asked as to why the Meat Industry Association did not know about something of such fundamental importance to its core business. More important, why did M\u0101ori meat producers not know about this change? M\u0101ori produce 15 percent of New Zealand\u2019s total meat, for goodness\u2019 sake! Multiple-owned M\u0101ori incorporations also tend to be among the country\u2019s biggest farms in stock-number terms. Collectively, M\u0101ori are the largest natural grouping of pastoral farmers in New Zealand\u2014farming an effective area of 720,000 hectares, and growing. Some impressive initiatives have also been pioneered by M\u0101ori in the meat industry. We recall a group of M\u0101ori entrepreneurs who bought a third of the shares in the Richmond meat plant from the Meat Board. They subsequently sold two-thirds of their stake to Dunedin-based PPCS. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori meatworkers have traditionally formed part of the backbone of the meat industry itself. They are men who, because of the conditions they worked under, aged before their time. However, within the industry itself, important steps have been made to demonstrate consultation with tangata whenua, and I make particular mention of the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities, which almost a decade ago lobbied for, and won, legislative changes laying down voting procedures for the Meat Board and the Wool Board in order to encourage greater M\u0101ori participation in those two industries. The one farm, one vote system was changed to a system based on production that recognises the greater size and productivity of M\u0101ori incorporations. The Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities says that this new system has generated greater M\u0101ori participation, in the sense that more people are registering, voting, and attending board meetings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis determination by the industry is a very positive move that we would like to see replicated in the Meat Board. We recognise the contribution that M\u0101ori professionals such as Wayne Walden and Gina Rudland had in their membership of the Meat Board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the 2004 Act to clarify that the Meat Board may allocate access to quota markets to meet industry participants who hold an export registration certificate, whether or not they currently export meat products. I want to raise here the possibility that an opportunity could exist if M\u0101ori meat producers take advantage of it to form an entity to enable them to enter the meat export market. Is this an opportunity for indigenous marketing in relationships with countries such as Bolivia, Colombia, and Venezuela? It seems slightly ironic that while, as I understand it, AgResearch is currently right in the middle of a 12-stop tour of the North Island to encourage M\u0101ori dairy, meat, and wool farms to realise their potential and increase productivity, here today we have a timely and significant opportunity to do exactly that. One wonders whether AgResearch is talking to the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe whistle-stop tour is aimed at doubling M\u0101ori farm productivity from its current $800 million to $1.6 billion by the year 2020. We are not happy that yet again a significant piece of legislation is being processed on the shop floor, as it were, without the robust consultation that we suggest is desirable for any policy change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe will, however, support this bill through to the select committee to enable the Meat Industry Association, meatworkers, the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities, M\u0101ori meat producers, AgResearch, and other key players to have a say about how to strengthen the historical backbone of our primary industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f109c28b199448f892bb8473160146c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f109c28b199448f892bb8473160146c0\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the first reading of the Meat Board Amendment Bill and immediately signal that United Future will be supporting this bill\u2014I expect not just through the first reading but all the way until it becomes the law of the land. As I mentioned in my general debate speech yesterday, my own involvement in the industry\u2014peripherally it must be admitted\u2014was in the early-1980s. It was not just in the restructuring of the meat industry but in its total reformation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EShane Ardern mentioned it was a 19th century industry. I tell him that it was actually a colonial industry. About the only thing that New Zealanders owned in the meat industry was the meat itself. The meat was grown here, processed mainly in British-owned freezing works, shipped on British-owned ships across to the other side of the world, went through British-owned wholesale markets, then sold through British-owned retail markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f7654b778ae445bb6638f6cf8dc67b7\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Vestey\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f734c07fe314f66b08a062a58da79d3\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: Vestey\u2019s in particular, and by the time it reached the British housewife there was a mark-up of over 90 percent on what the farmer back in New Zealand got. That is colonial economics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe have moved on and it has been a great success. As I said, I was one who was peripherally involved as a consultant in those days on that reformation and I am absolutely thrilled that all these years later we have such a successful and flourishing industry. In fact, meat exports are 20 percent of New Zealand\u2019s total exports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI remember when I lived in London in the 1970s, my wife would go to the supermarket and ask for New Zealand lamb. She was told it was in the deep-freeze and when she opened the deep-freeze inside was a piece of stocking net and all one could see through the stocking net was fat, and that was a leg of New Zealand lamb. [Interruption] Unprocessed. It was amazing to me that we sold much lamb, because one had to be motivated to buy that stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a382db71212242109dbc5cfbe0b41065\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s definitely been a transformation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223322860598264d13a01a15a6adb10749\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: The transformation now of course is enormous in the way in which our meat is packaged, cut, and marketed. It is just a brilliant success story and long may it continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe reason we support this bill is that it will continue the principle of free and open markets for meat exporters from this country. Te Ururoa Flavell, who has just resumed his seat, speculated that maybe M\u0101ori could form a cooperative meat exporting company and I said straightaway \u201CWhy not?\u201D. They should go for it, because the opportunity is there, and under the present rules, according to which particular set of lawyers one talks to\u2014and Te Ururoa may not be aware of this background\u2014some legal opinion says that in order to get access to quota markets one has to be exporting meat, whereas the clear intention of that Act was, no, one can register as a meat exporter and become a new meat exporter. When one thinks it through, if we stuck with the present position we would be closing the market to new entrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI recommend to the House that if members ever have a spare night they should take out a video called Tucker: The Man and his Dream. It is a true story that happened in the early 1950s in the United States where the motor vehicle industry excluded a new player, a man who was a brilliant, innovative person. Eventually that led to America losing its dominance in motor vehicle manufacturing and surrendering it to the Japanese and the Germans. Members will remember the days when people used to joke about Harley-Davidsons and that the only reliable thing about them was that they were good for spare parts. The whole industry went downhill in terms of quality and so forth, because no new blood was coming in. It became a closed shop. The last thing we need in the meat industry is to have a closed shop like that. We must remain open to new people coming in with new ideas, innovation, and energy, which will ensure that we continue the very successful run we have had over the last 20 or so years in developing this fantastic industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe other thing we have to remember is that while many of New Zealand\u2019s international competitors\u2014that is, meat producers in other countries\u2014can rely on a large domestic market, in New Zealand our small population does not give us that luxury. Therefore, it is remarkable that we have done so well. In fact, the figure I have here is that 83 percent of all beef and veal produced in this country is exported. I think the comparable figure for mutton is 88 percent. This is a New Zealand success story and one that we should celebrate and encourage. That, of course, makes it even more important that we ensure we do have free competitive markets, and that is all about allowing new entrants to get a foothold in the door so that we can bring the new blood that I mentioned into the equation. This is a great bill and we are delighted to give it our support today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd40143d61e6483b8cd14c5e08081bb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd40143d61e6483b8cd14c5e08081bb1\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of this bill. I would imagine that in the first instance many in the House might consider that I rise to declare of a conflict of interest. However, when I was elected to this position as the member for Kaikoura I resigned my position on the Meat Board, and therefore congratulate my successor in the northern South Island ward, Andrew Fox, a farmer from Scargill. He will do a wonderful job and he will have some interesting challenges ahead of him, having been a serving director of PPCS. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EGiven that we are talking about the Meat Board Amendment Bill, I point out that at this particular time farmers are probably more interested in how the ram is joining with the ewes and what sort of lambing percentage they will have, and they are still smarting over the fact that the Government decided there would be a microchipping process for all working dogs. Interestingly, for 5 years now where I come from, in Marlborough, the council has been running two categories of dogs. It has a category for working dogs, numbering 2,500, and it has a category for non-working dogs, numbering 6,500. To register a working dog costs $15 and to register a non-working dog costs $45, representing the number of times the dog pound has been used by non-working dogs. There were 192 occasions in the last 12 months, none of which were working dogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI will get back to the Meat Board Amendment Bill. It is technical in the sense that the word \u201Cambiguity\u201D has been used. I would prefer to use the word \u201Cclarify\u201D to reinforce the express purpose. When we talk about these details it has to be borne in mind that there is a huge history behind this quota management mechanism. A lot of it started as far back as 1882\u2014when Mount Tarawera was blowing up\u2014with the first shipment out of Port Chalmers of frozen meat. What grew out of that was a relationship that connected New Zealand to England, because we were able to supply frozen meat, which was very innovative at the time, on the shoulders of, and out of season to, the lamb crop and meat crop over in the UK in the northern hemisphere. That being the case, we built up a market because, in fact, we were complementing the existing home market by being able to supply lamb all year round. So that started way back in 1882. It was actually a wonderful thing for the sheep industry, because up until that stage it was purely reliant on wool and rendering down the tallow of sheep. That shipment going out of Port Chalmers was a marked leap forward for the economy of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe Meat Board does not have all that long a history, but it has quite a chequered history in the sense that at one stage, about 1985, it marketed, in a single-desk manner, everything to do with meat in New Zealand. It was an abysmal failure, and we have heard from other speakers today that the industry itself was controlled from England and there was no New Zealand ownership. Even what New Zealand ownership eventuated in the early stages was particularly shaky. We think of the Waitaki situation that occurred post-1985, and how the farmers had to put their hands back in their pockets again to put together models and structures of companies that would serve their interests best. They succeeded hugely, especially in the South Island, where they put together cooperatives in which farmers are shareholders and are able to capture value back to themselves. So successful have been the South Island cooperatives that when we look around today, we see that one meat company, PPCS, owns 52 percent of the meat industry. It has paid for that with shareholders\u2019 money and it is doing remarkably well. It is still capturing value back to itself. It was interesting that the M\u0101ori Party speaker talked about the business that was done by a group of M\u0101ori in taking over 16 percent of Richmond shares and selling them on to PPCS. I would say that that was the winning of the battle for control of Richmond by PPCS. So that is just of historical interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EMoving forward, I just want to draw members\u2019 attention to the Bills Digest that we were given. It concerns me a little bit that when we look under the heading \u201CNew Zealand Meat Board\u201D in the \u201CBackground\u201D section, we see that it talks about participants in the meat export industry\u2014as my learned friend Shane Ardern refers to, 32,000 meat producers. Well, that is pretty comfortable. I have to take exception, though, with the mechanism that it states the Meat Board is actually funded by. It states that the board is funded by a levy on stock numbers slaughtered. In broad terms one could just about let that pass, but it is not factually correct. The management of the quotas\u2014the quota allocation system\u2014is paid for by those participants who actually operate and move that meat over to the European or US markets. So I would like to see that corrected. I am sure the Meat Board would be horrified to think that it is still spending farmers\u2019 money in managing the quota, and I am sure that Federated Farmers\u2019 Meat and Fibre Producers\u2019 Council Chairman, Ian Corney, would be surprised to see that the Bills Digest actually says that, when in actual fact he has been beavering away over the last 2 years to ensure that the meat companies actually pay their share in administering that quota. So let us just bear that in mind and look for some correction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI will mention two very important dates. In 1997 there was the move to put some controls, management, and accountabilities back on the Meat Board so, in fact, there was more attention given to what farmers\u2019 and the industry\u2019s expectations were. At that particular time the board was reinforced; it stopped being a producer board and actually became an industry board. That is when we got meat industry directors around the table. I believe that that was a very smart move, because unless the industry is running in tandem with the producers there is no way to ever be sure that the best value is effectively being captured for the product in the quota market, to be brought back to this country. So that has been very good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhere are we today? Well, the 2004 Meat Board Act has been enacted, and we are back here again to clarify some of the details. Anything that comes out of this process will not be changing anything because it is not broken. The process that has been run does have a new-entrance allocation situation. It has very, very strict criteria for new entrance. My advice for people going into the meat industry is that instead of trying to get a minute or minuscule part of the quota, they should get their mates together, put their hands in their pockets, flesh out the millions of dollars, and buy an existing business, because to actually gain significantly out of the new-entrance allocation is very hard\u2014although in saying that I have to pay tribute to a particular individual inside the Meat Board who is about to retire, Graeme Harrison. He put together and built up a remarkable organisation that is now called Anzco Foods Group. He benefited, to use his own words, greatly from the assistance of the new-entrance allocation aspect of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI do not find that we will have too many difficulties working with this process. I welcome it, as did the Meat Board itself when it heard that this bill had come before the House. I believe it took the board by surprise, as well. A point we want to bear in mind is that the Crown owns the quota. Companies do not own the quota. A unique aspect of our quota into the European Union\u2014there are 1,200 quotas into the European Union\u2014is that we manage them within New Zealand, and on that basis we are able to capture the quota rent back to the New Zealand farmer, industry, and nation as a whole. Studies done at Lincoln University have established that the value of that quota is in the region of some $300 million annually. So it is very important that, whatever we do, we do it in a very level-handed manner and welcome people\u2019s opinions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI am perfectly relaxed to see what does come out as a result of the process of this bill going to the Primary Production Committee. Having been a shearer and the son of a meatworker, I am truly honoured to be on the Primary Production Committee, and I am grateful for this opportunity to speak in support of the Meat Board Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00221af33834ea6249dc8c0267727ff91ebf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221af33834ea6249dc8c0267727ff91ebf\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Meat Board Amendment Bill be referred to the Primary Production Committee and that the committee present its report on or before 27 July 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002268f4452730144ae5b9dd5610e7697fa7\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266be0e8416e54a54b644201c6b8a358c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002263741c5783454f509d123bddd0796fc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263741c5783454f509d123bddd0796fc5\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. Before briefly discussing the bill I will refer to a small matter that came up during the Committee of the whole House. A possible technical issue was raised. Chris Finlayson identified some references in the bill to the Law Practitioners Act 1982 that did not take account of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006, which received the Royal assent, as he correctly pointed out, on 20 March. However, that Act does not commence until a date is set by Order in Council. I anticipate that to be at least 18 months from now. The references in the Legal Services Act 2000 to the Law Practitioners Act 1982 will be amended at a later date, to coincide with the commencement of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006. I thought it was worth clearing that up for the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis bill demonstrates the Government\u2019s commitment to ensuring that an inability to afford a lawyer is not a barrier to accessing justice. The bill introduces changes that will update the financial eligibility criteria for legal aid, which have not been reviewed since 1987. These reforms are important, because access to justice is fundamental to the rule of law and therefore to the integrity of our justice system. Under regulations to be made once the bill is passed, the pool of people eligible for legal aid will increase from around 765,000 to some 1.2 million people. At the same time, the bill introduces a mechanism whereby financial eligibility thresholds will be regularly updated to ensure that they keep pace with increases in the cost of living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe bill makes it easier for people to know whether they are financially eligible for legal aid by simplifying the income and capital criteria. A number of improvements have also been made to the merits test for both criminal and civil legal aid. The changes to the merits test provide greater guidance to both applicants for legal aid and decision makers as to whether a particular matter does qualify for aid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThese are significant improvements that will enhance the transparency and, I believe, the consistency of legal aid decision-making. The provision of State-funded legal aid involves a careful balance between ensuring access to justice and the cost-effective operation of the scheme. It is for this reason that for a number of years the legal aid scheme has required the repayment of the costs of legal aid by those who are able to do so. Under these reforms a greater proportion of aided persons will repay some or all of the costs of legal aid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces a more transparent repayment regime whereby aided persons are better able to assess the potential costs to them personally of legal aid, and I think that that transparency is a significant and important improvement in the scheme. This will ensure that appropriate financial incentives operate with regard to the use of legal aid. Recovering legal aid costs also expands the pool of money available, of course, for other legal aid applicants. The bill contains a range of measures designed to improve the Legal Services Agency\u2019s ability to recover legal aid debt. The agency is now able to require a person to commence or recommence payment of a legal aid debt, for example, if the agency considers that a person\u2019s financial position has improved to a level that allows repayment, and it uses incentives to encourage the repayment of debts, such as the ability to charge interest on debt if a person defaults. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EEntitlement to legal aid is an important benefit, which significantly more New Zealanders will be entitled to access under these reforms. It is therefore important that the agency receives good-quality information on which to determine a person\u2019s eligibility for legal aid. A number of improvements have been made in this regard. For example, an aided person or his or her lawyer must advise the agency of any increase in financial circumstances that could affect the aided person\u2019s eligibility for legal aid. This obligation has been further clarified by the Justice and Electoral Committee. The bill now makes it clear that the obligation to inform the agency is not prevented by legal professional privilege. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EOverall the bill introduces greater transparency in the form of simplified financial thresholds and clarified merits criteria. The cost-effective administration of this expanded legal aid scheme is supported by a new repayments regime and improved agency debt management tools. The regular updating of the new financial eligibility thresholds will safeguard access to justice, both now and into the future. Accordingly, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002289b30a453bfc4d47b2c1b671b709613d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289b30a453bfc4d47b2c1b671b709613d\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party. We will be opposing this bill, and we do so with quite heavy hearts, because many of us here are lawyers. I would like to have my interest as a lawyer noted in this area. I am one of the lawyers in this House who has undertaken legal aid work for people\u2014mostly in the family and employment areas and also in the civil area. Certainly, I know that there are some other members of the House who have been criminal legal aid lawyers, as well. Legal aid is one of those political hot potatoes that will never get us a vote anywhere, and I think we can all agree on that as MPs. But what we do need to know and to keep in mind is the fact that legal aid is an absolute necessity if there is ever going to be any sense of justice when someone is involved in proceedings, particularly when the other side of the proceedings is, in fact, the Crown, or, in other words, the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOf all the areas of legal aid, criminal legal aid is the one that many people in society feel is a rip-off. In one sense, they are right. It is a rip-off in that the people who actually have to undertake the work are ripped off badly by the system. Why is it important that people who are accused of being criminals\u2014and in some cases are the most desperate criminals\u2014are properly represented? It is a matter of access to justice. It is an issue that requires us to consider the costs to society, the costs to us as a country, and the costs to the person himself or herself when an innocent person is convicted of a crime. Those costs are huge, and that is one of the reasons that the National Party is opposed to this bill. We do not think it goes far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ENational members do not think the bill addresses the very real issue, which is that, in both the civil and the criminal legal aid areas, lawyers are simply voting with their feet and saying they do not want to be part of the legal aid system. It has a lot to do with the bureaucracy. Having done some work in that area, I can say that the bureaucracy is huge. It has quite a lot to do with the fact that payments to the lawyers often come many, many months after the bill has been rendered. In fact, often the attitude towards the lawyers is that they are being done a favour when, actually, in many cases, the lawyers are undertaking work for well below the cost of running a business. They do so because they have a very, very real intent towards doing the best for their clients. I think that is something that is often forgotten by those who have only a very cursory experience in the matters of the law and the legal profession. It is a profession in which a lot of people give an awful lot and are just about sick of doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat we do know is that this bill aims to increase the number of people who will be eligible for legal aid to some 1.2 million New Zealanders. That is a huge figure. It is about a quarter of the population. It is a very, very large figure, and someone has to pay for it. Unfortunately, in this bill, it does not seem as though there will be enough money to pay for it adequately. The top rate for Crown solicitors\u2014those with all the power, all the expertise, and all the resources of the State behind them\u2014is $192 per hour plus GST, and that is updated every year. I ask members to compare the rate of $192 an hour plus GST with what is currently paid and is available to our top legal aid criminal lawyers, which is $130 per hour inclusive of GST. So that is where we are starting to get down to it. It is $121 an hour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EPeople might think that is quite a lot of money. However, the way the criminal legal aid system works, and the way the civil legal aid system works, an hour does not necessarily mean an hour. An hour may well mean a day. I say that because particular rates are allowed for particular jobs. So, in other words, somebody in the Legal Services Agency has made a decision at some point that a particular job should take only X number of hours. But if a lawyer is acting for a client who is mentally distressed, who has been traumatised by being brutalised by family members for years\u2014by a father or husband or whatever\u2014sometimes it takes significantly longer to do the job and do it properly. If a lawyer is acting for someone who is having his or her very first brush with the law in a criminal matter, that person may need significantly more assistance and aid than the current legal aid requirement will allow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI understand that in a State-paid system, a taxpayer-paid system, one cannot please everyone and cannot always have all the money that is there for paying for oneself. But, unfortunately, what does tend to happen is that any incentive or ability for the lawyer to be able to do anything to help that client is something that the lawyer must pay for. For that privilege\u2014for helping out the client in a pro bono way for the good of the client and for the good of the justice system\u2014the lawyer does not get treated as though he or she has done something good for the legal aid system; those lawyers are often treated as though they have done everything bad and are trying to claim for something they should not claim for. So, quite clearly, we have a situation at the moment, which the New Zealand Law Society has made very plain to this Government, where lawyers are saying: \u201CWe will not do this work anymore.\u201D Many of them do not want the hassle and are prepared to work less for more by doing work privately. Frankly, as one of them in this House, I cannot blame them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI also wonder about what has happened about the great public defender scheme and how that will be affected by this bill. So much was made of that in the Counties-Manukau area, yet my contacts in the criminal lawyers\u2019 association tell me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff17ffc60a04e2a9545729981fe4732\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: The criminal law fraternity voting for projects for criminal lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222688a208559d48d4b6d03bcd5b3c71da\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, Mr Fairbrother remembers them, does he not? But they did not think much of him. They in fact tell me that that scheme is one that should be looked at, and looked at very, very carefully. I wonder how their costs are being looked at, or how they are being judged against the people who are having to pay for their own offices, their own telephones, their own parking, and everything else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is a bill we would like to support, if only it went to the very heart of the issue\u2014which is that access to justice will not be served by extending legal aid to 1.2 million New Zealanders but not putting in proper provision for lawyers to actually do the work. That will make legal aid even worse than it is now, because more and more people will feel that they can bring civil claims, more and more people will feel that they will be able to have their time in court, and there will simply not be lawyers prepared to continue to fund Government policy. That is why we are not voting for this bill\u2014it does not go far enough to address the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u002224d0088094a74998b1b656ae97c31390\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224d0088094a74998b1b656ae97c31390\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I listened with care to the speech from Judith Collins, and I find I have to agree with many of the points she makes, having been a lawyer who has practised in the legal aid field, in both criminal and civil law, and having a spouse who practises in the civil area. But the points she makes are really for a different debate, and the National members have fallen short in this Chamber and in the course of debating this bill by deflecting the argument away from the issues in the bill to an issue of more money for lawyers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThis bill is not about fees; it is about widening the access to justice, about widening the eligibility for legal aid, and about regaining for taxpayers some of the money spent on the large legal aid bill. And this House should debate those matters, because it has never set the level of fees\u2014certainly not since Geoffrey Palmer came in, in 1982, and by regulation increased the amount payable in legal aid at that time. Subsequent to that, the setting of fees moved away from the House to the Legal Services Agency or its various predecessors. That was during the time of the National Government, as well. It is well to remember that eligibility for legal aid has not been widened since 1987. It was not touched by National when it was in Government. What National did, in fact, was to reduce the legal aid rate in 1996. If we reflect on that history, we see the reason for some of the mess we are left with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe emphasis that National speakers gave, in deflecting this debate to one of fees rather than of widening the access to justice, is a sad reflection on lawyers themselves. To argue in this House that an hourly rate of $121 net, exclusive of GST, is not enough for a sole practitioner to operate on is to illustrate the avarice and grandiose attitudes that many lawyers have. I had the misfortune to be invited to speak to a lawyers\u2019 function before Christmas last year in Auckland. I went, thinking it would be a convivial meal among legal aid lawyers. It was held at the Northern Club, with suited men offering their services to wait on tables, and it was the height of luxury. I became angry at what I saw as an abuse of the public purse by those people, who were complaining at their impecuniosity. One of my critics, who it turned out was a legal aid lawyer, happens to be the spouse of a judge, so the combined household income of that family would be close to half a million dollars. Yet his complaint was of inadequate income for the household. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe legal profession suffers from a greed attitude, and if the profession continues to deflect the arguments from access to legal aid on to the issue of fees, and forgets that it also has a public-good element, then this Government or any successive Government may be forced one day to step into the gap and take responsibility for the legal services the profession is failing to provide. No one can tell me that $130 an hour is not enough for a reasonable person to run a practice on and live off. A practice does not require buying expensive stock in trade; no hardware is required in the cupboard in order to practise law. It is a matter of intellectual property and a little knowledge of information technology. Law can be practised out of one room of a house, or a garage. Many lawyers practise law out of the back seat of their car, because it is such a fluid profession when it comes to servicing the legal aid community. So no one can stand here and tell me that $130 an hour is not enough to live off. It is not enough, though, when the profession is ratcheting out of the private industry hourly fees of $500-plus. Every lawyer wants to live like his or her peers, and as many very competent lawyers choose to practise legal aid, they look with some envy at the high rate of income that less competent lawyers drag from the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe level of remuneration is an issue for the profession to address. It is an issue as to the public good associated with practising law, and if the profession forgets its public-good obligations, then this House may have to move to replace that aspect by further legislation. I would regret that day, but while members of this House stand up here and cry \u201CMore for me! More for me!\u201D and there are people in our community working for $12 an hour, then those members have no sympathy from me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe instances given to this House by Judith Collins are true in one part, but not true in another. An experienced lawyer who is competent in the area can negotiate with the Legal Services Agency for a rate that is appropriate to the particular trial, and there are reports of that in the New Zealand Law Reports. For example, the lawyers of Paul Darvell negotiated fees of something like $320,000 over a long trial, but that was for both a senior and a junior lawyer. One of the lawyers rejected that, because it was not enough. So it is possible to negotiate with the Legal Services Agency for a fee above the guideline rate, and it is possible to negotiate with the agency for a longer preparation time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe analogy between defence lawyers and Crown lawyers is basically flawed. The Crown must accept every instruction that comes from the police to the Crown. A defence lawyer or any other lawyer in private practice can choose the areas in which to market his or her services. If lawyers choose to do solely legal aid work, then they do so in the knowledge that they will not have flash offices or the lifestyle of their more affluent colleagues who go into the private sector. Or defence lawyers can choose to mix legal aid with private instructions\u2014a choice not available to Crown solicitors. To run that comparison of defence lawyers with Crown solicitors and then say Crown solicitors are backed by the resources of the State is to ignore the choice that is available and to ignore the different standards and obligations that apply. A Crown lawyer has to prove every aspect of a case; a defence lawyer has to pick one weakness and home in on that. Defence lawyers can sit tight on a long trial, make only one speech, and win a case. Those are different responsibilities\u2014it is to compare apples with bananas rather than apples and apples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EIt is time we addressed the issue of fees front on. I simply say to the Bar that unless the legal profession revisits its public-good aspects there will continue to be \u201Cmore for me\u201D debates, as we have heard in the House from the National members, and successive Governments will be left with the obligation to move further to replace the public-good aspect neglected by the profession, as reflected in the National Party\u2019s arguments in this debate. This is a good bill, and the country will be fortunate in its passing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022d01cde13149b4579abc055c162cffa51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d01cde13149b4579abc055c162cffa51\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to take a short call on the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) and to express that we will be supporting the passage of this bill at the third reading. There is not a lot to be added to the debate. I think the bill has been covered quite broadly, but I will take a little time to express the views of one lawyer whose opinions we do respect here in New Zealand. In this debate, as Mr Fairbrother highlighted, National has chosen to focus to a large extent not on access or increased access to legal aid. I have to say that legislation that increases availability of legal services to something like 450,000 New Zealanders who otherwise would not have qualified has to be good legislation. At the core of the issue is the access to quality defence, quality legal advice, and quality legal support for those people who most desperately need it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe person who wrote to me pointed out that section 24 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 makes it clear that \u201CEveryone who is charged with an offence\u2014\u2026(f) shall have the right to receive legal assistance without cost if the interests of justice so require and that person does not have sufficient means to provide for that assistance;\u201D. That is correct. So, on that basis, women who have been beaten up by their husbands, children who are the subjects of sexual abuse by their families, and people\u2014young people, usually\u2014who come up before the courts for the first time are protected by a lawyer. That is correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ELegal aid rates were increased by the New Zealand First - National coalition Government when the Rt Hon Winston Peters was Treasurer, in 1998. But here is the rub: in 1999, once National had control of the Government benches by itself, it reduced the rates back down to the 1996 levels. That is fact. That is interesting, and the person who wrote to me pointed out he knew of no sector in the wider community that is still working today for 1996 pay rates. That is the point that many in the legal fraternity are pointing out today: the Legal Services Agency has not renegotiated those rates up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278831932c2a546e1a9f145720422955a\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: I worked for less than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7187c8017e4dafb394f8f011bad402\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I know that member, and I can assure the House she is a fine lawyer and she is worth every dollar she is ever paid. I can attest to that personally. That is Kate Wilkinson from Waimakariri whom I am talking about. Members may be interested to know that lawyers who work in the particular area of the gentleman who wrote to me are about to withdraw their services, so he says, in the duty solicitors scheme, and more and more law firms around the country are refusing to do legal aid because of the grossly inadequate pay rates. That is a point the National debating team has consistently tried to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe letter goes on to state that although it is easy to criticise legal aid and those lawyers who rip off the system, the legal profession is not the only occupation where this happens\u2014by crikey, we have read about some of those involving accountants, have we not\u2014and there are means whereby the legal profession, through the many disciplinary provisions enacted by Parliament, tends to weed out incompetent lawyers. If we care to read the expulsions from the Law Society\u2019s roll, we will note that this does happen from time to time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe writer commented, too, that some of us might point out that some of the lawyers who represent these people would be better off not representing them, because they are not actually perceived to be highly competent. The writer draws our attention to this because people who suffer as a result of poor-quality legal representation generally are first-time offenders, who need legal aid most and who do not need a blot on their record. Such a blot can make it very difficult for them to recover in future life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe writer goes on to state: \u201CIncidentally, I have not done any legal aid work for about 15 years or more\u201D\u2014well, I know why he was not doing it for 3 years\u2014\u201Cother than the one-a-year odd job for a local person who needs help, and it is normally about one a year.\u201D His firm does hardly any legal aid work and he doubted that it would do more than 10 cases a year collectively, now, because of the reasons that he wrote of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EFinally, he stated that if lawyers did not do legal aid work and individuals entered pleas themselves, we would find that the justice system would either grind to a halt, or three times the number of judges would be need to be appointed, three times the number of courts would be required, and the police force would have to increase probably by another 300 prosecutors and more than 1,000 police officers to cover the time delays and waste that would ensure. In most cases the duty solicitor or legal aid lawyer sets out the blunt facts to the prisoner. If the prisoner insists on pleading not guilty, then at least the lawyer facilitates smooth operation of the trial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EHe goes on to say that the longest trial in New Zealand history was one undertaken in the court in Whangarei or Kait\u0101ia. It lasted 82 days with the defendant defending himself on a fairly simple matter of theft. If this was allowed to run rampant, there would be absolute chaos in our justice and law and order system, and police officers would be wasting many hours and days at court because of the stupid activities of people who are stupid enough to commit criminal offences in the first place. Those were \u201Cjust a few comments\u201D written by Dail Jones QSO, a former New Zealand First member of Parliament, now the president of New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI think we take on board those points from the lawyer\u2019s perspective, but I do take on board the comments that have been made that this is not the forum or the legislation to be debating that issue. That is possibly an issue that the Justice and Electoral Committee could take up as an inquiry itself and make recommendations on to Parliament, and I am sure some National members might like to seek such an inquiry of that committee. I do not know that anyone would want to oppose such an inquiry, quite frankly, because we are all interested in delivering quality justice to those poor unfortunate Road Knights and Mongrel Mob members who so desperately deserve it! Some of us would like to ensure that they got another form of justice, but there we go, that is life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First members support the bill. We have noted the plea for more money for lawyers. We note that there are grounds for such a request. We do not tend to be swayed by the politics of envy, when people say: \u201CWell, this person earns that much money, therefore they don\u2019t need any more.\u201D; we tend to look at things on a case by case basis. We all know that some lawyers are paid far too much for doing far too little, but there is another bunch of lawyers out there who, for some reason known only to them and the God that they look up to, continue to throw themselves head first into social issues and hopeless cases time and time again in pursuit of achieving justice for those who are least able to access it. I commend lawyers such as that for their work, and I wonder how the heck they continue to summon the energy to do that work and to commit themselves mentally to such a regime\u2014often for people who only find themselves back before the courts again because they have learnt nothing in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First members support the bill. We look forward to the end of this debate so that we can get on to some more important matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab296cc459a54a1ea24d1b64b6160521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab296cc459a54a1ea24d1b64b6160521\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will start by thanking Ron Mark for his very flattering endorsements. On behalf of National I rise to oppose the bill, for many of the reasons that my colleague Judith Collins has given, but it does go deeper than that. This bill significantly raises the financial thresholds of legal aid eligibility to such an extent that 1.2 million New Zealanders will now be eligible for legal aid\u2014an increase of some 450,000. The importance of State-funded assistance has long been recognised in New Zealand, both from within the legal profession and from without. It is all about providing access to justice for those who are unable to afford it themselves. But access to justice under this bill is, paradoxically, the very issue being threatened. The right to legal representation is worthless if effective representation is not available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EOne could even argue that this bill, by its very nature, breaches the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which provides for the right to counsel in the context of criminal proceedings, and to natural justice in criminal and civil proceedings. This bill actually puts such rights in jeopardy. Making more people eligible for legal aid is meaningless if there is insufficient will and ability amongst the legal profession to offer legal aid services. This bill is worthless without lawyers. But this bill is not just about lawyers; it is about access to justice. There simply must be enough lawyers willing to do legal aid work for nearly twice the number of legal aid recipients. If there are not enough lawyers for the existing 750,000 people now eligible for legal aid, then how on earth will there be enough lawyers for nearly twice that number? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EOpponents argue, and have argued, that we want more money for lawyers. It is the envy-type mentality that cannot see that if it is not made worthwhile for lawyers to undertake legal aid work, then they simply will not do it. Why should they? Legal aid work is not compulsory; it is optional. Whilst lawyers do recognise a professional obligation in providing legal aid services, they are not a charity. There is a fundamental obligation on the State to provide adequate funding to ensure that access to justice is not threatened. Ethically, lawyers do not have to undertake legal aid work. Some do not, but many do, out of a sense of professional commitment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe are aware that this bill provides that the legal aid rates may\u2014and I emphasise \u201Cmay\u201D\u2014be reviewed from time to time. What does that actually mean? It is uncertain and it provides no assurance whatsoever. It gives no comfort to anyone that the rates indeed will be reviewed, and reviewed in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Justice, in a 1998 report on the reform of legal aid, considered the key features of an effective legal aid system to include equity, efficiency, administrative simplicity, and timeliness. None of those aspects seem to have been included in this bill. The report stated that the principle of equity has at its centre the concept of equality of arms, and identified that it was a well-established principle that applies not only to procedural matters during a trial but also in terms of the hourly rates paid to prosecution and defence counsel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EEquality of arms is an essential aspect of the right to a fair trial. In criminal proceedings, a person charged with an offence must have a reasonable opportunity to prepare and present a defence on an equal footing to that of the prosecution. It is wrong for the State to bring criminal action against its citizens, then to restrict their rights to defend themselves. Well, this bill does exactly that. It is not equality of arms and it is not access to justice when criminal legal aid lawyers, and therefore their clients, are at a significant disadvantage to their prosecuting counterparts. They have fewer resources. They do not have the resources of the police in support, prosecutors are allocated more paid hours for preparation, and the remuneration rates are less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis is not an argument that criminal legal aid lawyers should be paid commercial rates, but there is an argument that there should not be such a significant lower differential between Crown and defence rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe Legal Services Agency wants to establish a pool of competent legal practitioners who can provide legal services, to ensure the availability of competent legal practitioners who can provide adequate and appropriate legal advice, and to improve the availability and quality of legal representation, advice, and information. This bill does none of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E Anecdotally, there is a shortage of lawyers who are prepared and able to undertake legal aid work. In previous addresses, I have given examples of a survey of family law legal aid lawyers that was conducted recently. Only 10 percent of all firms in the region indicated a willingness to undertake legal aid work\u2014that is, 30 out of 306 firms. I refer also to the firm that in no uncertain terms regretfully had to cease legal aid work for reasons of remuneration, but also, perhaps more important, because of burgeoning, burdensome bureaucratic requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EOnly two Blenheim lawyers do legal aid work. A headline in the Marlborough Express of 14 March 2006 says \u201CStruggle for legal aid may get worse\u201D and the article states: \u201CThe Community Law Centre is already struggling to find Family Court legal aid lawyers and expects things to \u2018quickly get worse\u2019.\u201D We have a problem with having sufficient lawyers to do the work, and this bill does not address it. Another article states: \u201CLaw firms refusing legal aid cases\u201D, and that is the article that states that only two Blenheim lawyers are doing legal aid work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EExperienced lawyers are withdrawing from legal aid work. In the interests of access to justice, they need to be encouraged back to do legal aid work. Young and inexperienced practitioners no longer see legal aid work as a viable career option. They need to be encouraged. The legal aid system must have at least some inviting features to ensure that it is appropriately, adequately, and professionally resourced. We need able, experienced, and competent lawyers in order to avoid miscarriages of justice and to avoid appeals that will require even more legal aid payment and will be at more cost to the taxpayer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis issue is not just about criminal work. Victims of domestic violence, or any clients for that matter, should not have to shop around for a lawyer who is willing to do legal aid work. Clients who are desperately in need of help and justice, clients who need quick and proper access to legal representation, and clients who need the urgent protection of our laws are the clients who are being disadvantaged, and who are not being helped by this bill. These clients are being denied their right of access to justice, simply because the supply of lawyers who are ready, willing, and able to undertake legal aid work is dwindling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221640520a5bc04fdb93a244781c3e0a8e\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Getting the B team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b909c2ba8094d3f9eab5dfbb77030d4\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON\u003C/span\u003E: They are lucky if they get the B team. They are lucky if they get any team at all. The supply is dwindling because of the neglect and failure to address the issues that so urgently need addressing. This bill is well intentioned but it is imbalanced, it is unfair, it certainly does not address the issue of access to justice, and it is flawed. And for that reason, regretfully National opposes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8e14a35bd394442a5d28c2a354d6325\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8e14a35bd394442a5d28c2a354d6325\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens are supporting this bill. The key feature of the bill is the widening of eligibility criteria for legal aid. Some 400,000 additional people will become eligible for legal aid. Income thresholds for legal aid have not changed since 1969, resulting in ever-increasing numbers of lower-income New Zealanders becoming ineligible for legal assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EFor many, access to justice has become dependent on the ability to pay. The bill raises income thresholds and allows them to be set by Order in Council, rather than by a lengthy process through Parliament. However, the increases in eligibility do not go far enough. The passage of this legislation opened up the potential to increase collective eligibility for legal aid, expanding the coverage into socially and ecologically useful areas. More often than not, the only thing standing between an ecologically sensitive area and a wealthy developer is an impoverished hap\u016B or community group. The need for environmental legal aid remains unanswered by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Greens were very proud to have got the legal assistance fund through the Ministry for the Environment in 2000, but it is a tiny amount of money\u2014well under $1 million for all for the year. There is a cap of $30,000 per case, which does not go very far and is available only for cases in front of the Environment Court. It was a good start, but we need to go further and we need to integrate environmental legal aid with criminal justice system legal aid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe way legal aid is to be administered under this bill will make the abuse of the service more difficult, due to a better assessment of assets. People will be less able to hide their assets in order to qualify for legal aid. The Greens support the debt management provisions that the new legislation introduces. Where a debt exists there should be effective mechanisms to recover it. But debt recovery should not be the main thrust of the legislation. Legal aid should not become just a legal loan. We are talking here about the poorest people in New Zealand, who are dependent on legal aid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Greens also support the funding set aside for private mediation and restorative justice initiatives. It is obvious New Zealand is facing a crisis in our corrections system, and the current punitive system is simply not working, especially for M\u0101ori. Mediation and restorative justice are two initiatives that the Greens see as a positive political development. The Greens are also supportive of the changes to the interests of justice consideration, by the additional consideration of previous convictions. This is a significant reform in the interests of first-time offenders, especially young people, as it supports the principle of early prevention. It is very important for youths to avoid a first conviction, because it can lead to what Kevin Campbell has called a \u201Cspiral of offences and convictions\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAlthough we wish that in some respects the bill went further, we are supporting its passage through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022242819b0b2ca43b8bfadf4a2fa28753f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022242819b0b2ca43b8bfadf4a2fa28753f\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E There is an expression in Te Ao M\u0101ori: \u201CMe he maonga \u0101wh\u0101\u201D, which describes a lull in the storm, like a sudden pause in a furious debate. This bill returns to the storm of debate that has been in somewhat full lull since the torrid tirades that took place in this Chamber last night to justify locking up 12-year-old children in jail. The bill before the House last night promoted a view that the best solution for social dysfunction is punishment and seclusion from society. The bill before the House this afternoon is simply a variation on the same theme\u2014another promo for prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party continues to oppose this bill, because although it is branded in such a way as to address the issue of access to justice, it instead perpetuates the ridiculous \u201Clock \u2019em up\u201D thinking that has led to the spiralling arrest, conviction, and imprisonment rates that bring international shame to this land. With this bill for criminal legal aid, a new test will be introduced that places emphasis on likelihood of imprisonment. The bill as reported back from the Justice and Electoral Committee declared that when considering whether to grant an applicant legal aid, the agency must have regard to whether the applicant has any previous conviction, whether the applicant has been charged with, or convicted of, an offence punishable by imprisonment, and whether there is a real likelihood that the applicant, if convicted, will be sentenced to imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EAs Mr Harawira asked during the second reading debate, is it right that the Legal Services Agency usurps the role of judge and jury? What cultural values will be called into play? Our key concern with this bill, as with the bills in this suite of law and order legislation, is that it reinforces and endorses an approach that focuses on imprisonment rather than on restoration and healing. Instead of putting up only one system, perhaps it is time for the administration of legal aid to represent other forms of litigation. I talked last night about my experiences with restorative justice approaches. The success of restorative justice is dependent on the ability to produce a climate of reconciliation and healing, together with the acceptance of responsibility that a wrong has been done and needs to be set right. It is also dependent on a demonstrated and genuine attitude of commitment from all parties present, as well as on regular monitoring. These are strategies that can work\u2014strategies that do other than increase the incarceration data. If imprisonment is the only answer, we are forever on a downward path of punishment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThere are other systems that Aotearoa could turn to for precedent. For over 1,000 years M\u0101ori have had their own criminal justice system\u2014a system based on social responsibilities that link people to the wider community. At the heart of the system was the recognition that everybody had a responsibility to the wider community. Important too was the belief that all people have a tapu that is not to be abused by others. The Pacific practice of ifoga is similar to marae justice. The offender and wh\u0101nau take responsibility for the crime and work to find a point of reconciliation in order to restore the mana of the victim and his or her wh\u0101nau. Another example is that of the Navaho Indian tribe, who have their own police force, courts, and prisons. Jurisdiction is shared with the State, but the philosophy and the procedure are Navaho. Over the Tasman, Aboriginal courts and circle sentencing courts are being trialled, with the broad aims of reducing Aboriginal overrepresentation in prisons, reducing the incidence of failure to appear in court, and reducing the rates at which court orders are breached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EHow do we today put a stop to the criminal overrepresentation of M\u0101ori in the justice sector? Perhaps part of the answer lies in alternative models to seek restorative justice. The M\u0101ori Party has promoted the idea of a cross-party review of prisons and justice, and we will join with Nandor Tanczos and others to begin this process. The M\u0101ori Party has always believed in the power of the collective, and, indeed, has called for cross-party collaboration on issues such as the methamphetamine, or P, problem, peak oil, and addressing family violence. Indeed, we issued our own challenge on 15 February 2006 about developing long-term community involvement in addressing offending. As I said on that day, the solution to our overcrowded prisons and our excessively high per capita prison population lies within the community and not in bricks and mortar. We have to return to our communities\u2014the very essence of our society\u2014for both the short-term solutions to prison overcrowding and the long-term solutions to decrease the incidence of crime in Aotearoa. That is the big picture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI noted the release slipped out by Damien O\u2019Connor yesterday that stated he welcomed the review into the regional prison development costs at the Spring Hill and Milburn prisons. Applying scrutiny to this project is commendable\u2014indeed, it is about time\u2014but how much better it would have been to review the whole system once and for all. Just over a month ago the Salvation Army called on politicians to show what it called \u201Cethical courage\u201D and sign up to a multiparty accord that would stop the issue of crime and punishment being a political football.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E In its report on prisons and reoffending, the Salvation Army made a number of recommendations, including the development of a multiparty agreement to deal with issues of crime and punishment in a non-partisan way. Major Campbell Roberts, director of the Salvation Army\u2019s social policy and parliamentary unit, commented: \u201CGetting tough on crime, longer and longer sentences might sound good but in fact they are \u2018do nothing\u2019 choices.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EMajor Roberts challenges this House with his statement: \u201CEmotions will always play a part in any discussion of crime and punishment, but our politicians should be leading us beyond rhetoric, not encouraging it. Let us have reasoned, researched debate about positive ideas. If we don\u2019t then as a society we are doomed to spending more and more money on failed holding tanks. Prisons don\u2019t make us safer, they just make us poorer in every way. It is time for some principled, courageous leadership to turn prisons around.\u201D Now is the time to lead beyond rhetoric and to snap out of the mindset that prison programmes actually combat crime. Finally, I am a firm believer in the view: \u201CE kore tana p\u016Bweru e m\u0101k\u016B i te pata ua!\u201D. In other words, a storm, a shower of rain, does not need to drench the spirit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESo although we oppose this bill, I want to leave the House with three ideas to consider. The first is that I am aware that the Legal Services Agency has introduced an annual survey of the supply, distribution, and assignment to legal aid providers. The M\u0101ori Party believes this will be a valuable monitoring tool for all parties as to the progress we can achieve in turning round the disproportionately high imprisonment rates. The real measurement of success in this new policy will be not in how many legal aid grants are given out or in how much funding legal aid providers receive; it will be in the downward trends\u2014how many people are prevented from imprisonment, how many offenders are inspired not to reoffend, and how many families are saved from the impact of crime. The second good idea would be to vote down Ron Mark\u2019s bill to build a prison for 12-year-olds. Finally, the M\u0101ori Party joins with the Green Party and the Salvation Army to call, again, for a cross-party accord on reducing crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002267b2d810cdad417bb1bb9c59a989266a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267b2d810cdad417bb1bb9c59a989266a\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party opposes this bill, for very good reasons. The whole concept of legal aid is based on providing a fair level of representation for those in need of legal assistance. The most vulnerable in our society need a standard of representation to enable them to defend themselves. That is National\u2019s concern about this legislation. The bill does not address the fundamental concept of ensuring adequate representation. The bill fails to provide an adequate method and process for the calculation of legal aid to reflect the costs of providing such services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe bill extends the eligibility of legal aid and allows a further 25,000 grants of legal aid per year. The thresholds will be regularly updated by linkage to the consumer price index. But there is no such regular update for the cost of the provision of the legal aid services. There needs to be a similarity between the eligibility for, and also the payment of, legal aid services. The legal aid segment of the legal profession is in crisis. The Government should be addressing the provision of legal aid services, not just the criteria for accessing those services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EOne may ask: \u201CWhat then is the problem?\u201D. Well, it is a matter of: \u201CIf you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.\u201D For a number of years under this Government, legal aid lawyers have not had an increase in their legal aid fees. Add to that the high cost of administration of legal aid cases, and there is then no incentive for lawyers to undertake this work. The result is situations such as we heard in this House of defendants preferring to go it alone rather than take on the risk of counsel they do not trust. This is compounding the problem, as even the most needy are having to defend themselves. So we get a situation where vulnerable clients are getting insufficient representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESome say that it is an issue for the profession and that the profession should have the ability to set the fees. If that is the case, why was that not put in the legislation? We do not see in the bill that the profession has the ability to set the fees. It is simply not good enough to increase the eligibility without at the same time dealing with the provision of those services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe welcome any moves at a select committee to deal with this issue. So it is appropriate that Ron Mark has approached that issue and said the opportunity is there in the future. We encourage him to continue with that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EA novel approach suggested in this House was to make it a requirement for lawyers to serve as legal aid counsel at some point in their career. Although at first glance this may seem appropriate, it has a number of problems. First, most people in the law have no intention of undertaking, and will never undertake, court work. In fact, it is possible to go through law school without even doing courses such as evidence. This reflects the fact that the law is becoming a generic degree, and also that most of the work is actually in commercial, conveyancing, and specialist fields. A mandatory requirement could add to the injustices, as untrained and uninterested lawyers may be required to represent clients. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESecondly, any attempt at specifications will be flouted. Lawyers, traditionally, will find ways around any rule. They will find ways and means to make themselves unavailable, and even if they are made to do the work, they will not represent the client with the conviction the client would require. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThirdly, as a matter of fairness and equity, lawyers cannot be expected to provide a public service requirement that is not required in other professions. Do we require accountants to do community group audit work each week for free? Do we require engineers to work for Transit one day a week at reduced rates? No, we do not. We do not expect these things, so why should we expect them from lawyers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EEffectively, we would be requiring a bonding regime for lawyers. Typically, bonding regimes are suggested for expensive qualifications, such as medicine, or where there is a shortage of qualified persons, such as in the teaching profession. None of these fundamental drivers apply to the law. Legal qualifications can be a relatively inexpensive form of university degree. Also, we tend not to have a problem of not enough people wanting to become lawyers in New Zealand. Therefore, it would be inappropriate to place a bonding regime on lawyers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe arguments of avoiding a culture of imprisonment, advocated in this House, are actually compromised by this legislation. Without a system providing for effective representation, the likelihood of conviction and imprisonment is increased. Therefore, an effective resourcing of the legal aid practitioners would be in the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s best interest, as it would provide for the effective defence of those requiring such systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe reality is that legal services are like any other commercial service\u2014one gets what one pays for. There is no inherent obligation on lawyers to be treated differently from any other profession, and this Parliament cannot engage in such an unfair requirement. What it does show, however, is that if people want a certain level of legal service, then they need to pay what the market demands for those services. The reality is that the Government is underfunding those legal services, and this bill does nothing to rectify that situation. It is only through providing a realistic level of funding, and a process to keep up with the increased costs of providing that service, that true representation will be attained. With true representation, those in most need will be given the protection the legal aid system is required to provide them with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002260539be067074795bc6878ea2e5f4e12\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214454fcb4d4045fdb2b3b4ee912be269\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d7eb0a2c09c4ecdada961275710c080\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbda416d24404010a40d037302504d43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbda416d24404010a40d037302504d43\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Crimes Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill, the District Courts Amendment Bill (No 2), the Immigration Amendment Bill, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, the Privacy Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill, the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill, and the Tax Administration Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This very interesting legislation makes a number of significant improvements in the law relating to the enforcement of fines, reparations, and civil debts. It will increase the effectiveness and the efficiency of fines enforcement, and it begins a process of applying information technology to the filing of court documents. I will have more to say about that in a moment. However, I will first take the opportunity to reply to some of the points that were raised during the earlier debates and clarify some possible points of misunderstanding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EMuch of the comment on the legislation has focused on the interception of fines defaulters as they depart from New Zealand. As fines defaulters are intercepted, on their way either out of or into the country, they will be expected to pay their outstanding fines or reparation in full. It is possible that they will be allowed to enter into time payment arrangements. That will be at the discretion of the District Court registrars. It is highly unlikely that a registrar would enter into a time payment arrangement with a defaulter who has been intercepted on his or her way out of the country. In addition to stopping the worst defaulters on their way out of or into the country, this legislation will enable us to keep tabs on less serious fines defaulters. Defaulters who owe more than $1,000 or who have a warrant out for their arrest will trigger silent alerts as they pass through New Zealand international airports. Once a silent alert has been triggered, updated contact information will be provided by the Ministry of Justice in order to initiate enforcement action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIt has been suggested that the outstanding fines balance would be reduced if the Ministry of Justice had access to information held by the Ministry of Social Development and the Inland Revenue Department. It has also been suggested that the Government should contract private debt collection agencies to enforce the payment of fines. I point out that the Ministry of Justice undertakes regular electronic data matches with the Ministry of Social Development and the Inland Revenue Department. In addition, the Ministry of Justice also contracts with Baycorp to provide contact information on fines defaulters. The ministry is currently examining ways to improve the range and effectiveness of its track and trace activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI listened to a number of speakers express their disappointment that the legislation does not go further in increasing the scope for data matching, or the powers to deal with fines defaulters. However, I point out that this legislation was never designed to be a vehicle for substantial reform of the fines collection process. Reform of the fines collection process is the purpose of a current review of the infringement system. That review will include extensive consultation with all interested parties, and is expected to lead to a more comprehensive set of proposals on how infringements are used and how they are enforced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAlong with the fines enforcement at airports initiative, the legislature authorises the electronic filing of unpaid infringements in the court. That is a necessary precursor to improving the information provided by prosecuting authorities when they file infringements for enforcement in the courts. Better information means better chances of collection\u2014it is just as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe infringement review will also focus on enabling the Ministry of Justice to identify problem defaulters at an early stage, before they accumulate high amounts of outstanding fines. At present, a number of those people come to court only after their fines have reached a level that is beyond any realistic assessment of their capacity to pay. Identifying those people earlier means that we can find other ways to address their behaviour before the stage is reached where the only realistic option is to consider remitting the fines. Those are only some of the substantial changes in the law relating to fines enforcement that I expect will result from the completion of the review of the infringement system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EBefore concluding, I wish to say that this legislation has been in the House for some time. The main reason for that is that the Opposition parties, for some unfathomable reason, have decided to filibuster on this legislation. However, I am really pleased it is here at this stage. I would also like to compliment Martin Gallagher, the chair of the Law and Order Committee, which oversaw this legislation, on his outstanding work, patience, and diligence. He never lost hope that this legislation would be passed through the House. I commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3def6cae924414f85832f3c128328e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3def6cae924414f85832f3c128328e1\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call on this legislation so that I can reply to some of the things the Minister for Courts has just said. The first myth I want to burst is the fact that this legislation has been in the House since May 2003, and the Minister congratulates us on filibustering for that long. We are a fantastic team and we accept his congratulations with the good intentions with which they were delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0a475dde76a48a3a63e25c002a3e7e4\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: This is the bill you\u2019re supporting, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d4b838af8e41e8a19dac3e823146f7\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: We will get to that. The legislation aims to improve the effectiveness of the Ministry of Justice\u2019s fines and civil enforcement activities, and the National Party thinks that that is a very worthy initiative. It is a step in the right direction. Accordingly, we do support it, but I have to say to the House that I foreshadow those comments with some significant reservations and cautions about lost opportunities, which I will come to shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe original bill contained various amendments to the nine different statutes impacting on these activities\u2014hence, we are now debating nine bills, as per the Order Paper\u2014to extend the scope of information that the department can seek through information-matching programmes with other departments. Again, the Minister in his call alluded to this, and I want to come back to that in more detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn particular, the legislation creates an arrangement allowing the collections unit of the Ministry of Justice to compare its database of fine defaulters with the New Zealand Customs Service database of people travelling out of the country. This sounds good, as far as it goes, but, in actual fact, this legislation will be remembered more for its lost opportunities than for enhancing the effectiveness of fines and civil enforcement activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EDespite the constructive advice from Opposition members throughout the Committee stage, the Government simply would not take that advice on board. It ignored it, and now we are left with legislation that is philosophically sound, but in practice is not ideal, and in some aspects is fundamentally flawed. Let us get down to the detail and find out why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EAfter listening to the Minister, the casual observer and the casual listener would have been forgiven for thinking that people who are fines defaulters and who are attempting to leave this country by plane would be stopped at the airport unless they had paid their fines. The Minister said that to the House. He might have actually said that to his caucus, because Labour members seem to have been taken in by that. He might actually be saying it to the man on the street, but it simply is not correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EUnder this legislation, defaulters will be stopped only if, first, there is a warrant out for their arrest, and, second, they owe $5,000 or more in fines. The Government\u2019s own advisers advised the Government that approximately 500 Kiwis fit that category, and of that number they estimate that only about 117 will be stopped. To put that another way, one defaulter will be stopped every 3 days. It could have been worse. The Government originally wanted to set that threshold at $10,000, which would have reduced that number to 35 people. But, because of the pressure exerted by the Opposition parties, that threshold was reduced to $5,000\u2014and the Minister has the cheek to stand up and try to take the credit for that. It gets worse. There are nearly 483,000 people who owe\u2014and members should listen to this number\u2014$671.7 million in fines. Those figures are accurate as at the end of December 2005. Of that number, $367 million is overdue, and no arrangement has been entered into to repay that money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s view is that if people can afford to travel overseas, they can afford to pay their fines. We also believe that we should forget about the arrest warrant threshold. If people owe fines, then we expect them to be paid before they get on a plane and go on their OE. We expect that, as a fundamental privilege of living in this country, people will meet those obligations. We do not mean entering into mealy-mouthed pay arrangements; we actually mean paying the bill. The only flaw I can see in that strategy is that some of these lowlifes who would otherwise have been going to Australia to live will end up staying in this country, and that will probably lower the IQ of both countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe Government hides behind the argument that if we do this, lots of travellers will be held up at the airport, so we should not do it. It conveniently ignores the development of the Advance Passenger Processing system for outgoing flights, which enables early warning signals to be given to airline staff to stop or delay people from getting on those planes, and to make sure that their bags are not loaded. So the argument that people will be delayed is a fallacy. The technology exists now to make sure that will not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe technology also exists to nail fines defaulters in larger numbers. The moment they attempt to buy a ticket, a cross-reference to the Ministry of Justice would tell the ticket issuer that they have an outstanding fine, and at that point they could be told that if they try to get on the plane, they will be stopped, and that they must pay their fines. We could get even tougher than that. We could actually tell those people that if they do not pay, they will not go anywhere, or we could take the money for their fares and remit it to the Ministry of Justice to offset the money that they owe fellow Kiwis. If we were really serious about it, that is what we could do. The Chinese have a saying: \u201CIf you execute one you educate a thousand.\u201D I am not advocating that, but what I am saying is that if we start to train people and change behaviour, the word gets around very quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a543f430a5a415087e962750d3f3521\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d5f0ed01694130836bfa2e7ddb6f21\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Even Mr Jones\u2019 crowd would get it through their thick skulls that if they owe fines, then they have to pay them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EAs the prospective purchaser of that ticket has just given all his or her details to the ticket issuer, everyone knows where the defaulter lives, and the next person who bangs on his or her door should be the bailiff, with a hand out, saying: \u201COi, you owe some money.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EUsing the Government\u2019s own figures, it is estimated that the full benefit of the fines enforcement measures in this legislation would add up to a total $1.5 million. That is right, I ask the Minister, is it not\u2014$1.5 million? Did he tell the House how much it would cost to recoup that money? He was silent on that fact, actually. It will cost $1.68 million to recoup $1.5 million in the first year, and the Minister stands up and tries to convince this House that that is value for money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI told the House that there is $671.7 million in outstanding fines; $1.5 million represents 0.02 percent of the $671.7 million. Yet this Government would have us believe that it is serious about fines defaulters. Yeah, right! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI have one last issue I want to canvass. Why will the Government not allow more extensive information-sharing between Government departments in order to catch fines defaulters? The Minister tried to argue that the technology is not yet developed enough to do that. Well, that is simply not true. The Government refuses point-blank to allow cross-referencing to the Inland Revenue Department and Work and Income. I can only conclude that the reason it does not want to do that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ffd589d4dd47c9991f657ff8c8c098\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: You should have listened to my speech. They do that regularly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3bd8de3aed649bdb2d02aae01d99f25\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has had a chance. He should shut up and listen. The only reason the Government does not want to do that is it probably would be attacking its own voting base. That is how cynical that crowd is. The Government has the technology, it could enforce it and collect a lot more money, but it refuses to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ENational supports the legislation because it is a step in the right direction, but I lament it as an opportunity lost. It could have been far, far better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9e1d5683762433395c10d0fbfef9787\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9e1d5683762433395c10d0fbfef9787\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Standing Order 106(1) states: \u201CA member who has spoken to a question may speak again to explain some material part of a member\u2019s speech which has been misquoted, misunderstood or misrepresented in the same debate.\u201D The previous speaker said that this Government had done nothing about the Ministry of Justice giving the Inland Revenue Department and the Ministry of Social Development access to its information. In my speech, I made it clear that the Ministry of Justice does exactly that. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002231b22cd17cca47d28b68853db18a16c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231b22cd17cca47d28b68853db18a16c8\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleague Brian Connell has just said, that is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e68b6513f86344818dcc3c5102ffbf04\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You are quite correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1b95dd044546a5bff8591f8126c827\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: If you look at Standing Order 106(1), you will see that it is the member who has spoken to a question who may speak again. So the Minister is actually inviting Brian Connell to speak again\u2014because that is what Standing Order 106(1) states.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1eabee61ae347f381623159d3b08c6a\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Am I invited to speak, Mr Deputy Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffce72af9a464405ba8cc7451be4f4e3\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I think we will end it there. I needed to hear Mr Barker out before I knew what he was talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002227aa6f8bcdd64942b67954134673d0b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227aa6f8bcdd64942b67954134673d0b3\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to indicate to the House that New Zealand First will be supporting the passage of this legislation, but I have to say that New Zealand First has also expressed to the Minister personally that this is only the start. The fact is that in 2002 it was New Zealand First that first exposed to this nation, through written and oral questions, the unacceptably high level of outstanding fines and payments that existed. The first thing that occurred to us in New Zealand First when we looked at this problem and started investigating further\u2014long before the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill appeared at the Law and Order Committee, on which I was sitting\u2014was that for the $550 million we exposed as being outstanding at that point in time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4c24ce2edc240c08bbe5cf9b528a16e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255bd0cef069945fcad56af8721ca8214\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014$550 million outstanding\u2014we could have had free health-care for children under 12\u2014not under 6, but under 12. That was based on the premise that funding free health-care for children under 6 was costing $254 million, so $500 million-odd would have allowed us to fund free health-care for children under 12. That cannot be ignored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe mere thought that a bunch of law-breaking New Zealanders refuse to pay their fines, refuse to front up and accept responsibility, and refuse to put money across the counter\u2014money that could easily have been targeted to assist the vulnerable, the children of our nation\u2014is totally unacceptable. So we were adamant that, given the opportunity, we would shut down some loops that allowed those people to escape their responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe presentation of the original bill before the Law and Order Committee, on which I sat, gave us that perfect opportunity. What a wonderful piece of legislation it was\u2014sort of. It did look at such things as interdicting people who did not have the money to pay their $1,000 fine but certainly had the money to go to Fiji for 2 weeks. Those people do not have the money to pay for their $5,000 worth of outstanding fines but they certainly have the money to pay for the BMW they were driving when they accrued those fines. They did not have the money, the care, or the time to consider that they should pay the reparation owed to victims, yet they were gaily jollying around the world, globetrotting and enjoying their lifestyles. New Zealand First says that is not acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAlthough we applauded the Government\u2019s attempt to look at that situation, we could not accept the limitations to the interdiction process, which said that there has to be an outstanding warrant to arrest, and that the level of fines has to be $10,000. Ten thousand dollars! Who in the heck in this country among law-abiding citizens would allow themselves to accrue $10,000 worth of fines? It is clear there is a criminal fraternity that rack up that amount of fines, but even worse is the fact that we found out there are people out there in the criminal fraternity who do not have $10,000 worth of fines\u2014that is a joke\u2014but who have up to $90,000 and $100,000 worth of fines, and we now know of one person who resides in Australia and has over a million dollars worth of fines and reparation outstanding. That person sits in Australia right now, happily enjoying a quality of life that he has no entitlement to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbfa5d80bcf64363bed9b24a17f27696\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Above the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9dbf894a3f54fc19abe95143855fd44\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: He is totally above the law. We are saying that this legislation does not go far enough, and if we go to page 7 of the report on the original bill, the Courts and Criminal Matters Bill, and look under the heading \u201CTargeting New Zealand fines defaulters in Australia\u201D, we see that that fact is stated clearly: \u201CThe bill does not provide for a reciprocal information-sharing policy with Australia.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIf we read on, we find out that the bill does not provide for extradition. Why not? Mr Connell, the member for Rakaia, is not wrong. I grilled the officials who came before us at the select committee. I have subsequently, in private discussions, said to the Minister that the fact that we are not sharing information, not allowing the Inland Revenue Department to front up with information at the requests of the court, and not giving courts statutory powers to go into the files of the Inland Revenue Department and Work and Income to find these people, is absolute nonsense. It is nonsense, because time and time again we heard from officials that the reason the courts cannot collect this money, this $500 million or $600 million that is outstanding, is that they cannot find the people. What a load of poppycock! Of course they could find them. If the Inland Revenue Department can find them, then why can the courts not find them? If Work and Income is paying them a benefit, why can it not tell the courts which bank accounts it is paying the money into? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThen we find out a more ridiculous situation, which is that these people, having been found and dragged before the courts with the threat that they will be locked up if they do not turn up, then sit down and negotiate how much they will pay. They tell their bleeding-heart story to the court\u2019s officials and negotiate to pay $20 a month, $20 a week, $100 a month, or whatever. They present information on their income to the courts, and the courts have to accept that at face value. I am sorry, but that is not good enough, because I know that some of these people can have one, two, or three employers. If they are shonky enough, they can also be registered for and be collecting the benefit. It is not good enough that the courts cannot go straight into their Work and Income file or their Inland Revenue file and say: \u201CYou\u2019re telling me you can afford to pay only $100 a month. Well, let me tell you that I know you have two jobs. I know you are also quietly and illegally collecting a benefit that you should not be getting. My estimations are, firstly, that you should be charged for that fraudulent offence, and, secondly, that you can afford to pay $200 a month\u2014end of story.\u201D The courts should be able to tell the offender: \u201CSign up and pay this amount of money or we will see you locked up.\u201D That is what should be happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMembers may ask why I am so passionate about this issue, and why New Zealand First is so passionate about having another bill back before the House before 2008. We will be talking to the Minister until he listens and until his officials get the work done to bring this issue back to the fore and tighten it up further. Why? Because to not enforce the payment of fines is to totally undermine the justice system of this country, to totally undermine law and order, and to totally undermine the work of the men and women in blue who are protecting us in the streets day and night from these very thieves and robbers. If we continue to do that, then we might as well not have the police. We might as well not have judges. We might as well just let these crims take over and run riot in this country, and let this land revert back to the law of the jungle and the law of the gun. I do not want to see that. I want to see criminals who are fined meet their obligations. The only way we can do that is by strengthening this legislation even further. I pledge to ensure we do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002261b00a2daf77485ca18218183f743231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261b00a2daf77485ca18218183f743231\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with Mr Ron Mark and also with the comments made by Mr Brian Connell, who, like me, and together with Mr Mark, was a member of the Opposition team on the Law and Order Committee in the previous Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EFor those listening at home and for those in the House, it is important to put this legislation into some context. It enables the Ministry of Justice to improve the collection of fines from fines defaulters in New Zealand. What we know is that the amount of outstanding fines in this nation has now exceeded $600 million for the first time ever. Large amounts of fines are owed. We also know that the courts are similarly wiping huge amounts of fines. If only the pain and anguish of those who are offended against could be so easily wiped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EBut the Government made big store of the fact that this legislation will give it the power to stop fines defaulters at international airports. When it made that announcement, of course there was a big front-page story in the New Zealand Herald. Mr \u201CGet Tough\u201D Goff was going to have fines defaulters stopped at the airport as they tried to leave the country. Everyone thought that that was pretty tough. It is tough to say that if a fines defaulter is going to leave the country, he or she will be stopped at the airport and his or her bags will be taken off the plane unless the fine is paid. I thought it was pretty tough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThen we came to the select committee. Doing our job, as Opposition members do, we asked how many people would be stopped at the airport under this tough new legislation. Do members know what the answer was? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e816cf6883fe437fb34ce3f612f4556b\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: No, how many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc1ac1884e54a3aa17e23a0c8eb33ab\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Thirty-five. Of the tens of thousands of people who owed fines in New Zealand, Mr \u201CGet Tough\u201D Goff said 35 people would be stopped at the airport. Well, that is hardly worth an article on the front page of the paper, is it? So after some quite intense pressure from the Opposition parties on the select committee, the Government caved in and dropped the threshold at which fines defaulters could be intercepted at the airport to $5,000. We thought that figure was not very good, but\u2014wait for it\u2014I ask members how many people will be stopped at the airport under this Government\u2019s \u201Cget tough on fines defaulters\u201D law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa75028c1f3149bfa0e3b0d4d2170ae1\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let\u2019s hear it\u2014how many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022518a104a93a1413e84ac692b1ec7b16e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is 117\u2014zip. Only 117 people will be stopped at international airports in any one year, to be prevented from travelling overseas. That is it\u2014117 people will be stopped. That is one fines defaulter every 3 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIs the Government serious about trying to whittle away the $600 million debt mountain that is owed by fines defaulters? It is hardly worth coming to this House to pass a law\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaab5584cfd24673a2091a90765cf16a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: They catch more pensioners coming back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022409dafc1b832432fad194b61aaa68cec\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mark says the Government actually catches more than 117 pensioners coming back. Well, that tells us about the Government\u2019s priorities. Do members know how much money the Government has estimated it will collect by stopping 117 people? It is $1.2 million. We have spent $1.2 million of public money with the amount of time and effort Parliament has expended to put in place this legislation. The sad part about this is that it is absolutely consistent with the approach the Government takes in all law and order policy. Whatever the headline is, the substance never matches the rhetoric.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ENational will support the passing of this legislation, but when we are the Government we will change it so that more fines defaulters are stopped at the airport. We know we will have the support of Mr Ron Mark in making those changes when we are in Government. Let us have some legislation that actually has some teeth, and that is designed to get some action for those many thousands of New Zealanders who are owed reparation by criminals, and for the Crown, which is owed $600 million - plus by fines defaulters in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u00221408e87b16f249639ae75379dd525761\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221408e87b16f249639ae75379dd525761\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great delight to speak as the chair of the Law and Order Committee, and to acknowledge a previous speaker, Ron Mark, who is currently the deputy chair. I want to take an opportunity in this third reading speech to acknowledge all the members of the select committee that considered the original bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI want to sound a positive note tonight, because I think this legislation is a very, very good step in the right direction. Negativity is easy, but I acknowledge that my good colleague Ron Mark has issued a very clear challenge to the House, and I believe that, as a committee, in terms of our scrutinising function over the courts, we will be monitoring the success of this legislation. We are certainly hoping to see some significant gains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI want to be generous of spirit. I acknowledge the contribution of the previous speaker, the Hon Tony Ryall. I acknowledge the very good contribution of that outspoken member from Canterbury, Brian Connell. He is a good, outspoken member, and a real National Party MP, because he says it as he sees it, and that is good. If Brian Connell sometimes gives Don Brash a hard time, that is too bad, because Brian Connell is outspoken and that is nice to see. He made a good contribution and we miss him from the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI also take the opportunity to acknowledge the former deputy chair, Marc Alexander, in terms of his contribution. Of course, he is no longer with us, but he made a very good, constructive contribution. Georgina Beyer, Ann Hartley, and Mahara Okeroa were the Government members, and they made a very, very good contribution as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EFor those who are listening tonight, I want to stress what this legislation is about, because after listening to the previous speaker they could be confused. For the benefit of those who are not fully familiar with this wonderful and constructive legislation, let us cut to the chase here. Basically, what was the original Courts and Criminal Matters Bill about? It was an omnibus bill designed to improve the effectiveness of the fines and civil enforcement activities of the Ministry of Justice through interrelated amendments to a number of Acts. The passing of these bills will mean that the courts will be able to access information-matching programmes and send requests for information. This will improve inter-agency partnerships and strengthen our public services, and will ensure that the public are fully aware of their rights and responsibilities, and so increase fairness in the fines system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI spoke at the Committee stage around the issue of people leaving our airports and the need for greater cooperation between us and State and federal jurisdictions in Australia, and I do not intend to go into that further. I think the Minister for Courts very adequately summarised some of the very positive aspects of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EAs the chair of the select committee, I thank all the departmental advisers and the submitters who helped us come up with some very constructive and positive legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a84bf414dd6940a0a4aab9292ed35350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a84bf414dd6940a0a4aab9292ed35350\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E The genesis of this legislation goes back to May 2003, so it has had a very long gestation period. Here we are, at the final stage of the third readings. National supports the legislation, but, as our previous speakers have said, there are certainly not the strengths in the legislation that one would expect. There are no disincentives for those who decide not to pay their fines. Those who want to go overseas can still opt out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIf we look at what happened in the select committee, we see that the original threshold, which was set at $10,000, was going to catch only 35 people at the airport. Under National\u2019s pressure\u2014as Tony Ryall articulated in his address\u2014the threshold was dropped to $5,000, but that is going to catch only 117. Yet there are thousands of people who owe money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe figures that have been talked about tonight are quite staggering. An interesting statistic that has not come out of this debate, which I want to mention briefly, is that, in the year ended 31 December 2005, $41.5 million in fines were remitted. The initiative to catch the defaulters to try to recoup that money will cost $750,000 annually plus a set-up cost of $938,000. That is a total of $1.69 million. How much will come back? Members should listen to this: these measures will recoup only $1.5 million. A set-up cost of $1.69 million will recoup $1.5 million. It does not take much to work out that that is not good economics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis legislation is not tough enough. There was an opportunity for the Government to be hard on people who get away with not paying the fines that the courts have laid down. Although National is supporting the legislation, when we are back in Government we will toughen up these provisions, because it is New Zealanders who miss out, and the fines defaulters are having a free ride. With that in mind, we are supporting the legislation, but we do have reservations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224ebd388f751449ce8bb3cedb61a68c7b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill, the District Courts Amendment Bill (No 2), the Immigration Amendment Bill, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, the Privacy Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill, the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill, and the Tax Administration Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 115\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200603308e4bbe441f514105aca3b32a483b438c000480\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6.00 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"