"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c5311c1ee6a47a6959201ddd6f02d99\u0022\u003ETuesday, 4 April 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b76468db658465d804acbc8a8ae915b\u0022\u003ETuesday, 4 April 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225aa87948a3b84e57986aab8fa1913cd0\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206523ffc7c1b4093b35fcebb0e113f41\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002262ec22fc2f3d4770b3614f3e2122c825\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262ec22fc2f3d4770b3614f3e2122c825\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the House at its rising on Wednesday, 5 April to adjourn until the ringing of the bell on Thursday, 6 April. This is in connection with the luncheon for the Chinese delegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcbf915ed4684f3d9ef2fe208e3ed890\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8d5f3fcf81c48418981828af9091884\u0022\u003EAmended answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c98cd1676c38456a9935709a330eb6d7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister, 23 March\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00226ce245b005f64284aec04745147faf14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ce245b005f64284aec04745147faf14\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E On Thursday, 23 March, in response to question for oral answer No. 7 I stated, on behalf of the Prime Minister, that there was no front-end damage to the Prime Minister\u2019s car. That indeed was the advice at that point from Ministerial Services. I have subsequently been advised by Ministerial Services that this information was incorrect; the front bumper was dislodged from its mounts and received paint scratches, a headlight surround was dislodged, and a dent occurred at the left front of the bonnet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022caf8f0d679794feeaa3a17639f7762d8\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209418c8abc554947a5d7c56e4ab0a704\u0022\u003EMinisterial Responsibility\u2014Questions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00221cd0c33b916049e8afea62c9d5576dd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cd0c33b916049e8afea62c9d5576dd7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As requested, I have given further consideration to a dispute that arose on 22 March regarding the capacity in which the Hon Dover Samuels had made a statement. The primary rule for questions for Ministers is that the question must relate to a matter for which there is ministerial responsibility. As Speaker Kidd stated in 1997 in Speaker\u2019s ruling 139/3: \u201CIf there is no ministerial responsibility, there can be no question. An opinion that is sought from a Minister must relate to a matter for which the Minister has responsibility.\u201D If a Minister makes a comment on a matter for which the Minister has no ministerial responsibility\u2014and it does happen from time to time\u2014there can be no question to the Minister on that statement. If the subject matter of the statement falls within the responsibility of another Minister, that other Minister can be asked a question on the statement. And, of course, the Prime Minister can be asked a question on the statement. There is nothing new in these propositions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EIn fact, the initial supplementary question to Mr Samuels about the statement he made was allowed, as it could conceivably have fallen within his area of responsibility as Associate Minister for Economic Development. When Mr Samuels was initially asked about his statement he did not say that he was speaking as a councillor; he said he was speaking from his experience as a councillor. So long as he was questioned on this basis and his replies were made on this basis, I permitted questioning to continue. It was only when he introduced his actions as a councillor into the reply, and then a member sought to question him in that capacity, that I intervened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI reiterate: Ministers can be questioned only on matters for which they have responsibility. If they have made statements that impinge on those responsibilities, they can be questioned on them, regardless of the capacity in which the statements are made. I think that suitably worded questions could have been put to Mr Samuels last week on his statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfc9fbbc084f4ccc852c1c847dd6bd89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfc9fbbc084f4ccc852c1c847dd6bd89\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. There are really two points. Firstly, do you accept that in that event you should have ruled Dr Smith\u2019s question out of order, and we might have avoided those circumstances? Do you recall also that the issue of Dover Samuel\u2019s speaking as a councillor was made clear only when he answered the initial question in the House? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESecondly, is it now a reasonable defence for a Minister simply to say that he or she should have made a statement in some other capacity, and therefore step outside the reach of the House\u2019s right and responsibility to make inquiries when matters of public importance are seen to be exercised by a Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022faf769a6856e4c4fa803486adca95a9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faf769a6856e4c4fa803486adca95a9a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I have made my ruling, and the member could perhaps consider it further when there is an opportunity to do so. I do not intend to anticipate questions that might be asked in the future, but I will endeavour to be consistent in terms of the ruling I have given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffbd5ec8cc2f452ea1edfda25e928142\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffbd5ec8cc2f452ea1edfda25e928142\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder, then, for the sake of clarity\u2014because it now does become confusing in my mind and, I suspect, in the minds of a number of other members\u2014whether you would at some time give us a considered opinion about when a Minister is actually a Minister. I had always thought that when Ministers made a comment or a statement, they did so as Ministers. It seems now that we have some confusion as to when a Minister is a Minister, because I had understood that Ministers were Ministers 24/7. If I am incorrect, it would be very useful if you could help the House by giving us a view of when that is not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022d13a4de91582442d864dccb21cc1a6b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d13a4de91582442d864dccb21cc1a6b6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said to the previous member, I think members should take time to consider the ruling I have given when they have an opportunity to do so. It is quite a long one. Also, I do not see that any useful purpose can be served in anticipating hypothetical situations. When questions are asked and answers given, I will rule on matters as they arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d02e3b8277ef4afba606b655363de267\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b75a07120a1047ce831f2859986b09d9\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022002bd4a4deb94110af27a6f2574a7528\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u2014Political Integrity of Parliament and Electoral Process\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287cf9ac5af3b4bd9a2c1a4b8994017b4\u0022\u003E1. Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she still stand by her stated objective \u201Cto restore public confidence in the political integrity of Parliament and the electoral process.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbabfa5a90ac4d9f9c8d8039f13960c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbabfa5a90ac4d9f9c8d8039f13960c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ca2538e266940538861745a4117bcbb\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen yesterday\u2019s announcement that the Auditor-General is investigating the Labour Party\u2019s breach of Vote Parliamentary Service appropriations by its use of taxpayers\u2019 money to fund its campaign pledge card, and can she tell the House what steps she is prepared to take as Prime Minister to rebuild public confidence in Parliament and the electoral system, in light of this investigation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022216e02b6f15548c7972b6e0d2867aa52\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, as you have just ruled, there is no ministerial responsibility for the first part of that question. On the second part, I have for over 6\u00BC years worked very hard to restore the integrity of political processes by ensuring that Labour keeps its word\u2014and we have implemented every promise, including interest-free student loans, which the National Party cannot make up its mind on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed3dff782414432fbc9d4910a7b1e116\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that an Audit Office investigation that concludes that taxpayers\u2019 funds were unlawfully used on the Labour Party pledge card can only further damage public confidence in Parliament and the electoral process; if so, what steps is she prepared to take to resolve this matter now and live up to her earlier lofty statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e37b729b57904de59ab31a26c388e84b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I have no ministerial responsibility for the matter the member has raised. I expect, though, that he will be rushing to take responsibility for this leaflet paid for from parliamentary funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d12c3ced75411ba07cb171fbe1a03b\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe that the public can have confidence in the integrity of Parliament, when so much parliamentary time and resources are being used in dirt digging, personal attacks, noisy barracking, and character smearing of other members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022439c763c99aa4d8b9e489436a35bb89c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not, but I note with some satisfaction that it is getting the main proponents of the smear campaigns no traction whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228727b9be99a342e3bd335e03896f6f83\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that the Auditor-General\u2019s investigation, which may well result in the finding that her office has acted unlawfully, and a demand that the money be repaid, can only be seriously damaging to public confidence in Parliament and the political process; if so, will she, as Prime Minister, show some leadership on this issue now, and require that her party pay the money back and apologise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022319a09f773014c608f3ae0c6a76dc656\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I have no responsibility whatsoever for the first part of that question. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cbdd3bc641b4ff7bc2cfddef5759f19\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is very difficult to hear the reply with that level of barracking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022250bac34359944f9a2d0d0bbae418529\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat there is no ministerial responsibility for the first part of that question. Obviously, as a Government we always cooperate with the Auditor-General. I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Dr Nick Smith has interjected constantly on me despite your previous injunction, and I ask you to take appropriate action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e03d04c9b781429f8674c3433f2192cd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want members to please keep their barracking at a level that enables other members to hear the responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d3e194ab57740438efbc03b614a7043\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Should GST, if it is applicable to any transaction\u2014politically related or otherwise\u2014be paid, or is there one law for most political parties and another law for a different one? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a77142d84a4774a4c6ac808581b7e9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: An opinion has been sought. The Prime Minister is not responsible for anyone else\u2019s policies or parties, but opinions are, in fact, permitted within the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe7f2d741ab24342b296ec85c2ffaa0c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The problem the police ran into in respect of that matter was that no one in the National Party understood GST or was prepared to take any responsibility for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022623a0f699624407d9bbbe5f158725f69\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister inform the House what obligations she has to support the Auditor-General as an important Officer of Parliament; and how can putting the Auditor-General in a position where he will be forced to find that her party leader\u2019s budget has been spent unlawfully possibly contribute to rebuilding public confidence in Parliament and the electoral process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022322a70d1726c48748f7f9ed2ad25adbe\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, the Auditor-General is not forced to find anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c861c8b79a4648a094d27ba36c859e63\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister concerned that the collaboration of one party with outside agitators, such as the Exclusive Brethren, to produce leaflets that contain malicious lies about other parties brings Parliament and the electoral process into disrepute?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022690a8c5a969443df80c0474a2107a3e1\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, I do believe that smear campaigns by outside organisations, conniving with the National Party, bring the electoral process into disrepute. Further, I see that the Exclusive Brethren are up to exactly the same tricks in Tasmania, to the detriment of the Greens. If there is one thing this Government wants to clean up, it is the smutty sort of behaviour that the National Party engaged in with the Exclusive Brethren.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a214136f1a794002a5dc34347f6d785a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a document that indicates that the Ministry of Health has accepted sponsorship from the Brethren church to circulate material about one of its health programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002261de688a343f445eb7d3a3fe916dbeef\u0022\u003EStudent Loans\u2014Interest-free Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b76309809a14aed902d66a21575abae\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: Has he received any reports on reactions to the interest-free student loan scheme, which came into effect on 1 April 2006?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00220ec96df96ed84e04bf8dfe534f726dee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ec96df96ed84e04bf8dfe534f726dee\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E I have received many reports of positive reactions, such as the one from the New Zealand Educational Institute, which notes that the changes will help to keep new teachers in New Zealand, and describes how one typical new teacher will save over $40,000 over the life of his or her loan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8649520b09f43b7af67d3988172754c\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports of reactions to the scheme that have led to changes in any policy settings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fbd1d847cf544e1b7f48c16a1226cdc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report describing the changes as \u201Cthe most irresponsible election bribe I can ever remember seeing\u201D, and another describing the scheme as \u201Crushed and reckless\u201D. But I have also seen a report stating: \u201CMaybe we can leave the scheme as it is.\u201D The first comment came from the leader of the National Party, the second from its finance spokesperson, and the third from its education spokesperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b12dc8f28143d7ab6600b6b1361788\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with estimates by his own officials that the number of borrowers is forecast to rise by 27 percent over the next 3 years, and with their estimates that the total amount of debt under his scheme will be greater than under the old scheme; if so, why has he pursued a policy that deliberately increases student debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9f872f1d004d7594f92bb9993ef574\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I released those numbers in December. They came from Treasury. Of course, whether they are correct we will soon find out. It does not explain why, when faced with people who support the policy, that member said: \u201CWe may well keep it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff9eed37cfab4efd8600775a833d5d67\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that preventing student debt has greater merit than merely making payments of debt more affordable; if so, is the Government considering any initiatives to reduce the accumulation of student debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2ec7649fbf4c98b378561acfbf9b73\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: There are two main moves. One is better education of students about what they may or may not need. The second is improving the access to student allowances and continuing to work with parties such as United Future and New Zealand First in respect of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c56b4bbe5a57490f82f273fc053c9f56\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain how under his stewardship the student loan scheme managed to lose over 20,000 borrowers who were overseas, making no payments and running up huge penalties, and why did the Inland Revenue Department lose track of over 20,000 New Zealanders living overseas who have student loans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d279eeef4dc4b3f8b77ee8127921cbb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Addressing the last part of the question, I can tell the member that it is because in the past there has been no proper information-matching to ensure that when people move offshore, that information is made available to the Inland Revenue Department. We will be moving to introduce that information matching, to make that tracking possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a6b2e3018184b4fb718be47b7f47db6\u0022\u003EMinisterial Services\u2014Green Party\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d05f7060a64758b1431fb8584161b3\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Ministerial Services: Does she share the concerns of the Auditor-General, who, in his inquiry into funding arrangements for Green Party liaison roles, stated that \u201Cthere is a risk arising out of the three individuals being based in the Green Party\u2019s parliamentary office \u2026 the 3 individuals may be drawn into activities outside the scope of the Vote Ministerial Services appropriations\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002275cb4b0ae6984d8f82540c7cf3f9521f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275cb4b0ae6984d8f82540c7cf3f9521f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Minister responsible for Ministerial Services):\u003C/span\u003E No, because I have been advised by Ministerial Services that the measures the Auditor-General recommended to avoid that risk have already been put in place, and the Auditor-General states in his report: \u201CNo further steps are necessary beyond those the Department of Internal Affairs has agreed to take.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cefb00df1e245a286c0620da9496ffc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances can the Minister give the House that Ministerial Services funding for the Green Party liaison roles, and any other activities carried out by those people, will not be spent on Green Party parliamentary or political activities, and will she publicly release the protocols required by the Auditor-General?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc00ead475bb4a85a06daf901fc033e7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Very clear guidelines are in place. The Department of Internal Affairs has worked with the Auditor-General on those, and I am satisfied they are appropriate. As to specific protocols, I am not sure what the member is referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5c5023e3664a44aede478dcfe74b85\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confident that good progress is being made by this Government in its Buy Kiwi Made and energy-efficiency programmes, and that the relationship between Government spokespeople and Ministers is proceeding well within the guidelines set down by the Auditor-General?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223edb48fe740b49f792e43b6436a7c9dd\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That question asks about the arrangements around coalition dealings. To then ask the Prime Minister to report on the satisfaction of the Greens\u2019 work in this area steps well outside the province of that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a1191e3db9341dbbf9ed1f64080b82f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I listened to the question quite closely, and it did actually relate to the guidelines that were, in fact, the subject of the Auditor-General\u2019s report, so I ask the right honourable Prime Minister to address that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b88981f66234e329cd826f79cb0271a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am satisfied the arrangements that have been made are absolutely in the interests of stable Government\u2014which, of course, National members are not terribly interested in. I further wish to say that the work being done by Jeanette Fitzsimons on energy efficiency, and Sue Bradford on the Buy Kiwi Made campaign, are very important to the Government\u2019s work programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4440f1853544496ad886804e643b9db\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister share the Auditor-General\u2019s concerns that the person working 70 percent of the time for the Prime Minister in the liaison position is the same person working 30 percent of the time as a political adviser to the Green Party\u2014and, therefore, will have conflicts of interest\u2014and how does that benefit the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228be71fd93f2c41b2a00a3b0dcfe6a82b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, because there are very clear guidelines. That benefits the country because it is in the interests of stable Government\u2014something the National Party does not want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bda0cddbdbdc4689b5c317fd5ddc2588\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister assure the House that, under the protocols, she has had the new furnishings for the Beehive ticked off as being bought in New Zealand or New Zealand - made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f097baf0624c6cb49a289973a26f81\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That may be considered wide of the question, but the right honourable Prime Minister may answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac8674786c24596964b39b5fec44de0\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I really have no information about the furnishings in the Beehive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f931a8a203dc48ebb77f06e233914ce6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that the report effectively makes it clear that the Green Party, which has no responsibility for Government, is being granted additional funding to compensate its election losses, by a Prime Minister who will not hesitate to use taxpayer funds to ensure her own survival?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022518f8a445db34cbe98dba92d2b834d10\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is time the member read the Auditor-General\u2019s report very carefully. [Interruption] The Auditor-General has agreed that appropriate steps are in place to ensure stable Government, and that they are in line with appropriate expenditure. I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I heard Nick Smith once again interjecting on a response to a question. That has been constant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225efdd314faf74c999754d6ea709a207a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Unless the response to the answer was unparliamentary, it is permitted. It is the barracking, in fact, that is not permitted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229528fe74b3994b0a91037f37acf51d05\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the report of the inquiry into funding arrangements for the Green Party liaison roles, released by the Auditor-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c443998df364f8eb982485bda0eabaf\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection. There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a9175560124c99b2a5884b5191b3df\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: On the issue of buying New Zealand - made, and in the interests of satisfying the full ambit of Mr Brownlee\u2019s question, is the food that is to be served in the Beehive New Zealand \u2013 made, and what quality is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022700e5b23ab6742c5bbaa6d7c61caf4a4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did allow the other question, so if the right honourable Prime Minister wants to give a very brief response? [Interruption] I permitted Mr Brownlee\u2019s question, which was very wide of the mark. Having done that, with no objection from his colleagues, I have permitted another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228373bdead6984ea8b3eedf9a7801c709\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I would be extraordinarily surprised if the meat supplied for tomorrow, whether it is fish, chicken, beef, or lamb, is not Kiwi-made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002220b1f8d5a0b440d5a4c1603db13fb59c\u0022\u003EAir New Zealand / Qantas\u2014Code-share Criteria\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a31862ddd74db1a4a9add9593512ca\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What criteria would his Ministry follow were it to study a potential code-share agreement on trans-Tasman routes between Qantas and Air New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00225185d269b3d046a3a129d05b1a829fa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225185d269b3d046a3a129d05b1a829fa7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Acting Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The criteria are specified in section 9 of the Civil Aviation Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd29604df54c4e97a365dc7f2c7020ed\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept the concerns of the Consumers Institute, which believes that such an agreement would result in higher fares and fewer flights across the Tasman, and will he assure the House that these concerns will be taken into account before the ministry considers the approval?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221ca6fb07fe54f6cab8c4b396636645b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The concerns that the member raises are generically part of the list of criteria in section 9, but I would make the point that code sharing\u2014nearly always\u2014does not include price sharing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9f486e0167b4fc5b931a65e148ea3df\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: How prevalent are code-sharing agreements among international airlines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc9a15c5d7564ed88f29129b0f4712a0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: They are very common indeed. Successive New Zealand Governments have mandated the negotiation of provisions for code sharing, and such provisions are included in most of New Zealand\u2019s bilateral air services arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c2bd7d0ba24ee0940329a770c8d830\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that when there was a code-sharing arrangement between Air New Zealand and Qantas in the early 1990s, there was much frustration and, dare I say, anger from passengers who would book on one airline and be flown on another and they found that to be out of order with their booking arrangements; and will he assure the House that this will be taken into consideration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde22026962146929e403dd63e23983e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the ministry will take that into consideration. Let us not forget also that code-sharing arrangements are designed primarily to improve benefits to the consumers. For example, it does mean that one can travel on one ticket on more flights across a greater spread during the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002201e36dd9f5a34fe18957f94404aa41f1\u0022\u003ECrime, Violent\u2014Incidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022234649a89f8643e8b55d801a9459f998\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Has she seen any recent reports about levels of violent crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00223b2861f7adb24fe4bd87fd0dedd87ef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b2861f7adb24fe4bd87fd0dedd87ef0\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E The most recent report I have seen is the release of the police crime statistics yesterday that report on recorded offences. In the report, violence has eight categories ranging from minor assault to homicide. Nationwide, there has been an increase of 6.9 percent in violence over the last year. Violence has shown an increase this year, but that comes off the back of 2 years when it reduced. The level of public place violence has remained relatively static over the past 10 years. The increase in recorded violence has mostly been family violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658ac838869b486eb83a25ade76b0fb7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How does she explain the statistics released yesterday, which show not only that violent crimes have increased by 16 percent since 2000, with serious assaults up by 17 percent and grievous assaults up by an astonishing 41 percent since 2000, but also that the increase in all of those crimes, in the last year alone, is the biggest jump in a single year since 2000; and why is violent crime getting worse under this Government rather than better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb1a2780812a426fb2e5bf4dfdfd5c7b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I realise the member had a written supplementary question and therefore probably did not listen to my answer. I said to him that violence in public places has remained static for almost 10 years. The big increase in violence has been in domestic violence. The member is correct in saying that we have more reported domestic violence in New Zealand. That is good and it is bad. It is good that domestic violence is reported, and people are encouraged to report it. It is bad that we do have a problem of domestic violence in this country. That requires a response from more than just the police but from us as a community, also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299416fbaf71a474ab9a8af2ae1e2be07\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the Minister\u2019s previous answer, why precisely is more family violence now being reported?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afa21af837924fd9b9e91ee5694dfbce\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I think family violence is being reported more often because people feel more confident to come forward and report it. I think it is important to look at what the police, as one of the agencies involved, are doing in terms of domestic violence. The press release from the Counties-Manukau Police District, which has seen one of the biggest rises in domestic violence, states that the things being done there include putting in place five family violence coordinators and a domestic violence response service. The police there are concentrating on repeat domestic violent offenders, because those are the people who are likely to go on and commit further offences, leading, in some cases, to the murder of their victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af518d8f15c4a259a7e15dd88f616d3\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that, in addition to an increase in violent crime, the 11.8 percent increase in crime in Counties-Manukau and 8.1 percent increase in Waikato can be attributed largely to an increase in burglaries and theft committed by young offenders, according to acting Police Commissioner Stephen Long; if so, does that not make a mockery of the Government\u2019s pledge card promise made in 1999 to \u201Ccrack down on burglary and youth crime\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c1594fe66c049adbc1b3691789c4e8b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member might like to quote figures selectively from two areas, but I say to him that recorded crime is still 21 percent lower than it was at its peak in 1996. I will stand on the record of this Government, compared with that of the previous National Government, any day of the week. That Government was busy removing over 500 police staff at the time it left office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226442e21f1b1f47a4b391e7a291a8a7b5\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the new Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad, who acknowledged on National Radio this morning that not enough police resources have been put into combating gangs and that filling the 1,000 new police places over 3 years that the Government has promised New Zealand First will \u201Ctest us\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc4f83fbe2eb4936b1263a4215a18977\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, I would like to congratulate the new Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad. That is a very good appointment. He is a person who knows the Auckland crime scene extremely well. I agree with Police Commissioner Broad that recruiting 1,000 additional police will test us, but we are putting in the effort and, in fact, we will train an additional 400 this year. Would the member not prefer to be in a Government that is putting an extra 1,000 sworn police in rather than in a Government that was busy taking 500 police officers out, in order to meet Bill Birch\u2019s requirement to bring the cost down because of the INCIS blowout?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221669fb52cc454f3eadd26b148dcf3f3a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the supply and confidence agreement between New Zealand First and the Government, which provides for an increase of 1,000 front-line police officers plus an increase of up to around 250 non-sworn staff\u2014a record increase in the front-line establishment of some 12.5 percent over 3 years\u2014may go some way towards settling some of these problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea0236c47d74d248ce862043c4fff03\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, and I think it is important to share with the House the fact that the deployment of that additional resource will go first of all to the places that need it the most, so we can tackle those issues. I thank the New Zealand First members for the very constructive way they have worked with us. They are not into carping, whingeing, and grizzling, which is all we get from the National Party members, who did not put a statement out last year congratulating the Government when the crime statistics went down. It is all one way with them\u2014they will moan, grizzle, and whinge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bce93856a794d44afeb9ef524b5aea0\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister at all concerned about the fact that murders have increased by 30 percent and sex crimes have increased by 6 percent in the last year, and has she confronted the Minister of Corrections as to why his rehabilitation programmes are not helping to reduce violent crime and may, in some cases, be making prisoners more likely to reoffend if they do them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228df4dfc4ab6f4d2f82568254fb0dda66\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: As a former police officer, Mr Borrows will know that the level of murders in New Zealand has remained pretty static over a long period of time. Sometimes it goes up, and sometimes it goes down. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c9fa697a8f24514a144a8376f96c050\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister please start again. I could not hear the response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279655cd57a6c41ff9fee8a7d11347436\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am very happy to start again. As a former police officer, the member will know that the level of murders in New Zealand has remained fairly static for quite a long period of time, and to the member\u2019s credit\u2014unlike the members on National\u2019s front bench\u2014he is nodding and agreeing with me. The figures go up, and the figures go down. Unfortunately, in the member\u2019s own area there have been a number of murders this year, which has put a lot of stress on the Central Police District. But I am sure he was delighted to read that in the Wanganui area there has been a reduction in total crime of 4.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95a240b5df747b8bc2fb050de8041e7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to people who live in Perth Street in \u014Ctara, where a lack of police resources has meant that in the last few weeks one resident has died from a fight that police were called to twice, before arriving after an ambulance had already left with the victim, and where another resident took a baseball bat to a drug buyer\u2019s car in frustration after weeks of calls to the police about a tinny house had not been acted upon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c12fd3452eb4ce583870d860a5e8f19\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I can say to people in \u014Ctara and in other parts of New Zealand that we can always do better. The police can always do better, and they are committed to doing that. If the member had listened to all commissioner Broad\u2019s comments today, he would know that the commissioner is committed to doing better\u2014and so is this Government, with the extra resources that are going into policing in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228086531747054b80b5b65f28153a7b1d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the published record of murders in New Zealand in 1996, and then the comparative figures for 1997 and 1998, which show a dramatic drop during the brief time when New Zealand First was in Government and then the resumption of an increase in 1999, when National was back in power by itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022395edf5e111640989ee141e1c880fabb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e839c3a2c484ccfbe88aabe66f1f069\u0022\u003EMarine Farming\u2014Aquaculture Legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd9e822cdb0a4c7da9386fc5961c6f25\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Fisheries: Does he agree with Northland oyster farmer and Ng\u0101ti Kur\u012B and Ng\u0101i Takoto chief executive, Ben Waitai, that in respect of the allocation of marine-farming space, this Government \u201Cworries about tax evasion\u2014this is Treaty evasion\u201D, and what will he be doing to respond to the claims that the Government\u0027s aquaculture legislation is unworkable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022730144ac467c442a8a956565ab01f156\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022730144ac467c442a8a956565ab01f156\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E No, I do not agree in total with that statement. Of course, the Government worries about tax evasion, because it is theft. The Government also would see it as a worry if there were evasion of legitimate treaty agreements. The Government does not agree that the aquaculture legislation is unworkable. There are, of course, some implementation issues that central government councils and industry are working through, and that will take time, but I am confident that we can achieve good objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221da56f640e724c5eb8fcb688c48a701f\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the Government is evading its responsibilities under Te Tiriti o Waitangi; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b4d4e98bf04ac898cae70f33229fa0\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not. Those agreements and policy objectives have to be realised by 2014. If members just have some patience and do not panic, they will see that this Government will achieve its objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e8c7be4ab4d46f48ce39d20eea84a3a\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that no aquaculture management areas have yet been promulgated since the aquaculture reforms were legislated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe8b4187e93f40b1818125df6517e505\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: A central objective of the aquaculture reforms was to devolve planning for aquaculture to local communities to manage themselves through local authorities under the Resource Management Act. It is interesting to note for the House that that process was supported by both the aquaculture industry and local government. Personally, I tend to favour more support through central government. So the moral is: \u201CDon\u2019t ask for what you want; you might get it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc7f102329ae41ba830a2103c4010d87\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government come clean and admit that\u2014just as Dover Samuels said\u2014the aquaculture legislation is seriously flawed, that M\u0101ori have been duped into thinking they would get 20 percent of space as a quid pro quo for the seabed, that local iwi are now fighting Sealord\u2019s, owned by M\u0101ori, in Golden Bay and Tasman Bay, and that affected quota holders will now not get a say on aquaculture in Golden Bay or Tasman Bay, or can the Minister explain away Judge Kenderdine\u2019s ruling last month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b2d206b66048d1bde9884831f6d692\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just caution. I have a feeling this matter is one that is still before the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8c4262817f94996b32d3885c9f8ba39\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e772af4c56d348439ad66d4198ae6fb6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not an interim decision\u2014it is not still there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248a9f77373b4481ba8599cec5a1ece92\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297967ed88fb34292bbdf71aeabeceec8\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of the recent interim decision by the Environment Court in Tasman that has led to the comments from Mr Waitai. Officials from the Ministry for the Environment and the Ministry of Fisheries are analysing the interim decision and will be reporting to the Minister for the Environment and myself shortly on the nature of that decision, the implications for the M\u0101ori aquaculture settlement and the wider aquacultural reforms, and the steps necessary to address any difficulties that arise. I can assure the House that this Government will be working to ensure that the integrity of the aquacultural settlement with M\u0101ori is maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae1cbdbd39704c16a6ee24f5f8598b6f\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Ka whakaae te Minita in\u0101ianei me aro ia ki ng\u0101 tohutohu a te tangata whenua kei roto i t\u014Dna uep\u016B, ar\u0101, ko ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a Dover Samuels n\u0101na i k\u012B nei, kei te \u201Ckaha h\u014Dh\u0101\u201D te iwi M\u0101ori kei te takutai moana e noho ana n\u0101 te mea, k\u0101ore he painga i roto i ng\u0101 ture mahi kai moana?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Will the Minister now acknowledge that he should take heed of indigenous advice from within his own caucus, particularly that of the Hon Dover Samuels, who reported \u201Chuge frustration\u201D among coastal M\u0101ori over the unworkability of the aquaculture legislation?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a43080e3ee7e4b4c8b6314f7048eaa65\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The indigenous advice within my caucus would be me talking to myself. [Interruption] I doubt whether the National Party would know what \u201Cindigenous advice\u201D is. But in terms of the Government\u2019s position, the Government will ensure that the integrity of agreements entered into with the tangata whenua of New Zealand, in terms of aquacultural resource, is honoured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c536b01c1823428c93bc6e6eca68badf\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government meet the 20 percent obligation, of its own making, if, firstly, no marine farmers are selling established space to it to use for the settlement; or, secondly, no new space is being created that the Government can skim off 20 percent for the settlement; or, thirdly, has the Minister accepted that a big $250 million cheque will have to be written to M\u0101ori in 2014 in lieu of the 20 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba97bd644ae2488290fd6e2ee6654310\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept that a cheque for $250 million will have to be written out. I assure the House again that there are 8 years to go before this matter reaches a conclusion. It will be 8 years of a Labour-led Government in this House, and the National Party will not have to worry about the solutions. We will fix it ourselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314a80b0391f4df6905a5d7506535784\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: How will he respond to the interim Environment Court decision, which suggested that iwi may be at the back of the queue in the allocation of aquaculture space in the coastal marine area, and is this another example of what the United Nations special rapporteur\u2019s report found, that the inherent rights of M\u0101ori were not constitutionally recognised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225146b8a613249d68127a0da74f7f8a7\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to make a direct comment on decisions of the Environment Court at this point, suffice it to say that, as I said earlier, the Minister for the Environment and myself will receive advice from Crown Law and from our own ministries and we will consider what actions need to be taken to honour the agreements we have made with M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a29550d3a4d24968a66bff05d86d4879\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the interim decision showing that the law does pit M\u0101ori against M\u0101ori when it comes to the 20 percent settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022140c51f0b603406c844fc2f29970f70f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dafe948e544c4395bc291207355cd177\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table section 22, the Crown\u2019s obligations under the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0414d219c044e20a5d9792c93364ba9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022113a9ef6aaf04b8da7d447b76444586a\u0022\u003EFinance, Minister\u2014Revenue, Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bf3b2ba6ee4f5f84d86e1809b653b2\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, in relation to comments previously made by the Minister of Revenue, that \u201C\u2026 I\u2019m the person responsible for either having or filling fiscal holes. In the end, that buck stops literally right here.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022712af3f5406640938f5bfcfa71711031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022712af3f5406640938f5bfcfa71711031\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; because I try to be helpful to select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db0295000cf140c99b57d6c38e6ef678\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister hiding from the country the most simple of facts\u2014whether the business tax review is revenue neutral\u2014when, after all, he is happy to tell us that the fiscal buck stops with him and only with him, and when he must surely know that a tax review that is revenue neutral has vastly different implications from one that is not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d1238fd8b954b68a2834ad14fb096e4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Revenue and I are working on a range of options, some of which may and some of which may not be revenue neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ae73cd732645468159403047b3f166\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the comments of the Minister of Revenue with regard to the business tax review that he is not interested in a smoke and mirrors game, that it is not a matter of rearranging the deckchairs, that he is not only interested in a regime that lowers costs for business, and that it is very difficult to make a real difference without having some fairly sizable numbers attached; and does he think these comments imply significant fiscal costs arising from the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022950c13c757864f60b3ad3de4a4d84e80\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, the Minister of Revenue and I are working on a range of options, some of which may and some of which may not be revenue neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223977a68bac7a4a6c826fc06d634adfa1\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: What is so secret about the business tax review that, despite its being the biggest review of taxation since 2001, the terms of reference have never been released, the only paper on the scope of the review has been withheld under the Official Information Act\u2014it began in secret\u2014and only very sketchy details about what the review is actually doing have been announced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1a985087b1a481d81328b9793e7e542\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing. It is the nature of the review that when we release a discussion document, the discussion document will contain the material the member seeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022331e6f7e121b4e0d88ebb58a54af29ab\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Should any of us be surprised by the fact that the Government has not worked out even simple details like the fiscal implications of the business tax review, when the Prime Minister does not even know whether the Minister will be reading the Budget in 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c7ab8d2e0a4560b789c5120fe6d60f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We all want to hear the answer, please, so keep the level of barracking down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7047f75680b4356b77368bcc208dedf\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister is very clear that I will be reading the Budget in 2007; the question is whether by then the member will have achieved his ambition and be sitting in Dr Brash\u2019s seat as opposed to his present one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb46fb81fb83492ea271603f6520da48\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any international reports comparing the way revenue is collected to meet fiscal needs in New Zealand and in other OECD countries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227414d040129446a293c14d4cc6686528\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Last week the OECD released a report showing that New Zealand has the third-lowest tax wedge in the OECD for the average worker, and that income taxes are significantly higher, on average, in the OECD than in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022459a576eac8443c29421e15d889b423d\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen today\u2019s report that one of New Zealand\u2019s premier companies, Fletcher Building, is considering joining a long list of New Zealand companies that have relocated their head offices to Australia, and does this concern him; if so, why does he not think it important enough to rush along his business tax review, to do something about just that situation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d3118bab06149d883080b607e15b5dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that Fletcher Building has denied that report. Indeed, the chief executive of Fletcher Building has been prominent in the debate in the last year or two, rejecting the bumper sticker slogans coming from the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e19c3a093bdb4ebcae423957e031faa7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: On the question of the collection of revenue, for which the Minister is responsible in terms of the policy\u2014[Interruption]\u2014you wouldn\u2019t know, Gerry, would you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264e982211e4c461ea29d5a07f417523d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just ask the question. [Interruption] I know there was an interjection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278c9321bd1f146d58ebc1bb64e1b41db\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I want to apologise to the member. I was not laughing at him, but I am not surprised he is sensitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd144bb248e4021bbd6131c0f3b2008\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not an apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb5b93147ef44ad6a765c448cf8b96f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member has compounded his error now with his smart-alec so-called apology. I ask you to ask the member to get up and apologise without any constraint as to what the apology means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb837389a4a4f94803ec56c7f695e64\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was an interjection. Would the member please withdraw and apologise without any other comment, so that we can proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220894c6940caf481487b46827c4e0a856\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I most certainly will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248493e24ffa344f8b4f4a938e691a01e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone is on a last warning. When an interjection is made while a question is being asked, that member is normally removed from the House. I now put everyone on a last warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022246e0c0ef3084e23a7986b660ae3f66d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Am I going to get an apology for Mr Brownlee\u2019s remarks in respect of that so-called apology? He offended against the rule about not making any comment during the asking of a question. He has been on notice about that before. Then he compounded it with a so-called apology, which was not an apology at all. I am asking to be treated in the same way as the rest of us, and for him, regardless of his supposedly temporary position, to be told to apologise and withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5a25fd608c34fe3886681ed5314f12b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would ask the member to withdraw and apologise, please, without comment. [Interruption] You are not doing so? Right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bbae89a02884e25bad8caaa2d7b3adc\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think we are in grave difficulty, because Mr Brownlee has told the House that all he did was smile. [Interruption] Laugh. Mr Peters can hardly take objection to that; we would have to withdraw and apology every time someone laughs in the House. That would become ridiculous, because the entire Opposition would be apologising right through question time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d97ede9fa30c43a0a4d84a16042f3be3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee said he laughed. I thought I heard an interjection; the laughter was extraordinarily loud if it actually got to that level. I want you all please to just settle. You are all on your last warning. You can be capable of being misinterpreted, if there are any loud interjections when members are asking questions. So, please, can we proceed, with Mr Peters just asking his question at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0e99e17096246eba6e1c820513999b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. When you ask a member to apologise, he does; he does not refuse, in the way that Mr Brownlee just did. You asked him whether he was going to apologise, and he said \u201CNo\u201D. If the answer is no, then he is out of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221da056c3e0d643658bb8787ba1550b6d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there was an interjection. I have tried, in fact, to be reasonable on this. Mr Brownlee, will you please apologise so that we can proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb59b4aa0b6479a8058ff236422b38f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You actually have not established that it was Mr Brownlee who interjected. In fact, what you are insisting on is that Mr Brownlee apologise for laughing, and I say it is a pretty dark day in the House if that is cause for an apology. I think you might have the wrong person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212592e40589e4e49847f494503af73f5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please be seated. He is only repeating himself, and there is also a ruling about not making persistent points of order. Whether or not it was laughter, I heard it as an interjection. In order to try to progress the business of the House, it seemed easier just to ask the member to apologise, rather than remove him, because I had not given the final warning for the day. He is refusing to apologise. I will ask him one more time. Would the member please apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be46608b88a047758503f2d760705906\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. What have I just apologised for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d0799dbf364eac99a936deec10c013\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, with respect, that also is a challenge to you. He was told\u2014and he admitted it initially\u2014that he was being asked to apologise for laughing in such a raucous manner that question time could not happen. That is clearly in the Hansard. He compounded that by making some smart-alec comment for which he was asked to apologise again. Then he refused twice to do so, and now, when he has finally apologised, he has challenged your authority by saying, in short, that you have made a ruling that is meaningless. He has interrupted question time. That is what he has been ordered to apologise for, and it is as clear as daylight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c5aa4dcabbb43019e02f51e5bc404b4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on this matter, and I rule that we now move on, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efbeb6ef975c46abaab3e0242cd3ff53\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: On the question of filling fiscal holes, what reports has the Minister seen that would make that extraordinarily difficult, should there be a borrowing programme of the type envisaged in the last election campaign, where tax cuts were a central issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479790c93bc14f52a066f5a756b51c80\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. How can the Minister of Finance be required to answer that, and stay within the bounds of the ruling that you gave to the House just last week? What you made clear is that a Minister can answer questions if they relate to the Minister\u2019s portfolio. National\u2019s election pledges\u2014advertised by us at our own expense, I might add\u2014have nothing to do with Michael Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b98193b0f149b0b3e5a4269cbc5ea8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The facts are these. This question has been asked in various forms for many, many months. It was the subject of questions before the election campaign and substantially after it. To try to say this is a question without precedence is a nonsense. The National Party should get somebody who knows the Standing Orders to run its procedure in relation to order in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a730deb2a5b40bab474782fa2e90418\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: We are not at all arguing that there is a problem with questions asked in the past; I asked how this fits in with your new rulings, which, presumably, applied from the day you gave them last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec0a246b90c488ab1241157363d9dbd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, as Minister of Finance I am responsible for consideration of all suggestions about changes to fiscal settings, whether in terms of revenue expenditure, borrowing, or whatever else, and what the implications of those may be for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221465cc85273a4590a856b1438ea3f11a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister please address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022927b8d869aab4f03a00d50093f4d5081\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen suggestions that the Government should borrow money in order to pay for tax cuts. That will lead to rising debt, and is quite different from any suggestions around borrowing to pay for capital expenditure. Indeed, the National Party itself costed the increased borrowing at $3.5 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022061f8ca8366044cab6fbb9dd4507039e\u0022\u003EResearch and Development\u2014Government Investment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b280982dfc64981a8bfff2ac77e1df5\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Research, Science and Technology: What reports, if any, has he received about Government investment in research and development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002213ae5d3dc7884d248219387e0fd7e6e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213ae5d3dc7884d248219387e0fd7e6e0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Research, Science and Technology):\u003C/span\u003E I have received reports showing that the Government\u2019s investment in research and development has increased by 56 percent since 1999 to $600 million a year in Vote Research, Science and Technology alone. The Government is also encouraging further public-private collaboration on research and development to assist the growth of New Zealand\u2019s top exporting firms. An example of this is the programme I launched today called Express. This programme, which has received over $2 million through the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology, will involve a number of leading information and communications technology industry partners including Telecom and a variety of universities in partnerships around information and communications technology, and looks forward to the next generation in information and communications technology networks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e386f67510fa44a890b448a1ebaa2ba3\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: What other investments is the Government making to accelerate New Zealand\u2019s economic transformation through science?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e9de9f0df0448c8a5d2472544abb19\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Last week I announced a $10.6 million grant to Tait Electronics. This was the first grant under the Technology for Business Growth strategic initiative, which aims to support the growth of top export companies with a proven track record. This grant will help the company make the transition from analogue to digital radio technology and become a leader in this overseas market, which is estimated to be worth $2 billion and is supported by such outstanding Canterbury MPs as Ruth Dyson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002203c947b378ca4436b1392a049fd3c807\u0022\u003EHospital Price Index\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3cba522f49a4c0eb2c2012829d4a6ac\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How is the rate of inflation in hospital costs measured, and what reports has he received on the hospital price index over the past 12 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022148dd134dfe9489381fcbecf2081e1fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022148dd134dfe9489381fcbecf2081e1fe\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E It is calculated by studying the changing costs of a basket of health services across seven public hospitals, and the index has increased by 5.1 percent in the 12 months to December 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c68d42282da041d28a55b48449183431\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What funding increase will district health boards receive this financial year to meet these increased costs and the expected salary demands of other health professionals seeking relativity with the nurses\u2019 pay jolt; or will we continue to have district health board after district health board come to Parliament and admit that under this Government patients have to be sicker and sicker to get an operation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b07022db6e84ed2989ac5be1f86fbb7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: District health boards receive money from the Government through a variety of channels. A thing called a forward funding track comes in at a little under 3 percent. There is a demographic adjustment and an adjustment for specific services, such as health of older people. In recent times district health boards have been directly compensated for most of the increase in nurses\u2019 pay. The member will be aware that this Government decided nurses should be paid what they deserve, and all but 2 percent, I think, of that was met by a special injection from the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f80234de9ae4925bb6eedf0778cf065\u0022\u003EAnn Hartley\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he received on the cost of delivering health services in New Zealand compared with other OECD nations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d81f5906204d2b890850a348bb6647\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a report showing that New Zealand spends around a third of the amount of money per person on health that is spent in the United States. Interestingly, the same report shows that, on average, New Zealanders live longer than Americans. I am sure National will want to consider this information as it continues to advocate the Americanisation of our public health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7e7b8c1b2ed4211b402982d25be76dc\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How will district health boards meet salary demands and hospital inflation of 5 percent, and maintain services, when the Government is proposing a forecast funding track increase in this year\u2019s Budget of only 2.93 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679ce7e1abb24efaa46cbb85af7b5ac7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I tried to answer that member\u2019s question in an earlier answer. I will try again. District health boards receive funding from Government through a variety of channels. One is through the future funding track, which comes in at a little under 3 percent. Another one is through demographics. Another one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de043806e735448d89558c8be8cfc73a\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dabd0d8141940af83ad54c3df400849\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It depends on the district health board, I say to the member. An amount of money is paid out for the health of older people services. Direct money is paid to compensate all but 2 percent of the increase that is payable to nurses, and on it goes. I am not saying for the moment that district health boards are overpaid. District health boards will have to move into a more and more cost-effective space. But I must say that the district health boards of this country are a whole lot better than Crown health enterprises, or whatever those things were called, under that member\u2019s Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223599f113754c41c9a65a2670999c16ce\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances has the Minister sought, when noting that laboratory services are included in the hospital price index, about the process being undertaken by the Wellington district health boards, which are currently considering tenders for laboratory services there, and its potential effect on the index?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022028e506cf6294fa2bc7d7d9a15613517\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a number of reports around a number of laboratory tendering processes that have been undertaken by a number of district health boards. All of those seek to improve, or to further improve, the cost-effectiveness of our health system. I look forward to that member\u2019s warm endorsement of that move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b04ef92aea6646cda00d572de67c3084\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Government has told district health boards that it will increase demographic funding in this year\u2019s Budget by 1.48 percent, and will he also confirm that the Government has formally told district health boards that this money will be used to eliminate deficits rather than increase services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c9ff02fe4bc4a528b10c3e6efc5a2bb\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government certainly does not tolerate the idea of deficits, and it is pleased to report that district health boards are moving progressively to eliminate deficits, and that a number of district health boards are now posting services\u2014they are to be congratulated. The demographic money that the member refers to is actually used to transit towards a population-based funding formula over the next several years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224646717007b2457fad725c540558548b\u0022\u003EWorking for Families Package\u2014Targeting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294d3c4def7bc43908eacf7bb08fde696\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CLabour is targeting tax credits where they are needed\u201D, and does he believe a back-bench MP with five children and no earning spouse should be eligible to apply for extra welfare assistance because they need it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002247db7f30f52841b8a017d20715bebd87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247db7f30f52841b8a017d20715bebd87\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E A hard-working Kiwi family with five children that earns $118,000, whether they be builders, tradespeople, nurses, teachers, or whatever, is entitled to at least $20 per week in tax credits under Working for Families. That should be compared with the much higher tax credit that is available to families with children on more modest incomes. Of course, it needs to be noted that that member\u2019s tax policies would impoverish working families through cuts to basic social services like health and education, while giving her a personal tax break of over $220 per week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c542f49f85e4a199166ecff86967c5b\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: How can he possibly claim that the Working for Families package is the best way to help hard-working Kiwis, when they are taxed hard, have their money washed through the Inland Revenue Department and Work and Income, and then have to apply to get some back, when he should just let people keep more of what they earn in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261214c82e50241269ad1f632370d1cb5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I can do that easily. I am pleased to inform that member that even before the current roll-out, 196,500 families received assistance of, on average, $108 as the previous part of this package. The announcements on Saturday, we believe, will support a further 85,000 New Zealand families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bca1e364981d4809b828e8bcde4a120e\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has he seen regarding the impact of the 1 April changes to Working for Families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292772f726e5543c894943e9e5bccc2b6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report in the Dominion Post of 23 March, which was written by Charles Waldegrave, the joint leader of the New Zealand Poverty Measurement Project. He described Working for Families in the following way: \u201CThese are not welfare benefits. They represent a recognition by the Government that families with children have higher costs.\u201D He goes on: \u201CTax cuts across the board would not invest in children in the same way. Furthermore, to the extent that they could help families, they would invest more in the children of the wealthy rather than those on low and middle incomes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bb3de62114646e391b813b758d0a1bf\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a good use of his parliamentary budget and time to spend his energy writing to a member of Parliament who is married to a partner in a law firm and who has only one child to encourage that member to seek assistance under Working for Families, when, by my calculations, that member is about 25 to 30 kids short of being eligible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022788f7f29deee489babce9a36facaceff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: One of the key differences between the Government and the Opposition is that this Government is keen to ensure that people get their entitlements. It is hard to get past the fact that the average Kiwi family would have been $70 a week worse off under a National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c7651cd56d6473b8c8520475a4537c3\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government so determined to continue with its discrimination against the children of beneficiaries by denying them, and only them, some of the benefits of the Working for Families package, while the package at the same time increases taxpayer assistance to middle and high-income families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e565dcbc723411d8a583f605dec0239\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: As I have answered the question on at least previous two occasions, one of the first steps in the Working for Families package was an increase of an estimated $32 a week to the families of beneficiaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8613f56a6a418baa40d39eca8724eb\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that there is an inherent contradiction in the position espoused by the ACT party when on the one hand it denigrates as welfare tax reductions extended, with United Future support, to 196,500 working families, but on the other hand it attempts to label the much smaller tax reductions it proposed for those families as some kind of low-tax heaven?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae87113b04c74ad9b8da95afa68134f7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I do feel rather constrained by the restrictions of acceptable parliamentary language in answering that question. But I do not think the irony escapes many people that someone complaining about a possible $20 entitlement would be prepared to take $92 or $220 under ACT policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dba05e528214a32a9e43aa09ba25c51\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Were the Minister and his Government inspired by Robin Hood when they invented this scheme, and when did it become the policy of this socialist Labour Government to rob from the poor to give to the rich?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022354fceccce63491a86d9a31026c93de5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: For my answer I turn to the words of the Fe\u2019ao family, with six children aged between 2 and 17, who were reported in the New Zealand Herald a couple of days ago. Their mother Sepi said she would use the extra money\u2014around $400 a week\u2014as follows: \u201CThey are going to have some fruit to take to school for their lunch. We can\u2019t afford much fruit at the moment \u2026 They will be able to get good clothes and shoes. I have to look for second-hand shoes for them to wear to school, and the cheaper ones get broken more easily.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0d983c6cd8a474594aac2080847f904\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister ever drawn to the ACT party\u2019s attention the fact that the targeted support for families delivered through the family support mechanism was in fact introduced by Roger Douglas, the founder of the ACT party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227774e1e79d444e20a9ee70342bca4171\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I am happy that the Minister has given me the opportunity do so. I would like to reinforce the fact that this sort of targeting is common practice and is the best way of delivering this sort of support right across the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280734fda3b7946199422e87871a614b8\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a letter addressed to Mr and Mrs Blumsky encouraging them to seek assistance from Working for Families, even though they are 30 kids short of the threshold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b7a19dc654a4285afeaf4492be72ff5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Seeing as the Minister of Finance has put Roger Douglas\u2019 name into the ring, I see leave to table the comments made by the Hon Roger Douglas about his successor at the present time, Mr Hide, as an edification of the political process gone wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223bda731dd8440d3af4294aad5c58110\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those comments. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227917430812ec406fb38bcfc87d7b0ed8\u0022\u003EHoney and Bee Products\u2014Biosecurity Risk\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd335904ce64d758a6e2dec699e1adf\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Biosecurity: Can he assure New Zealand there will be no biosecurity risk as a result of a Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry proposal to allow honey and bee products into New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u00222cfc9c293cc443a6b58a2119a666f53d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cfc9c293cc443a6b58a2119a666f53d\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E The proposal, as the member suggests, does not become a decision until around the middle of the year, after the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry has considered the proposed import health standards for honey from Australia and the Pacific Islands. Those standards are based on sound science, in accordance with our domestic legislation and international obligations. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry expects to make final decisions in June, as I said, following analysis of the submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dbd996cfcb74bcb85b951842d7492a6\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister cannot assure New Zealand there will be no risk\u2014and it appears he cannot\u2014then will Biosecurity New Zealand tell the honey producers, and also the rest of the farming and pastoral sector, why they should take that risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224402b073bd9d4d6aa9657dcd17052689\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps some of Mr Ardern\u2019s senior and more knowledgable colleagues should advise him that the Act under which I am now acting and cannot intervene politically was passed in 1993 by the then National Government. If Mr Ardern is suggesting that National would politicise our biosecurity system and start to make decisions on biosecurity from a political standpoint, his knowledgable colleagues will tell him that National, if it ever does get into Government, would be before the World Trade Organization faster than it ever imagined would be possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022975e8d58fb604a26858a0936df26add6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any indications of support from the Opposition spokesperson on trade, Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, for the use of sanitary or phytosanitary barriers as trade barriers; if so, how has that member squared that with his opposition to the Australian use of such barriers in the case of apples?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c7a92d3e074b729bafabe9c82233c5\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is very instructive for this House to consider the case of Australia versus New Zealand regarding the import of apples. We in New Zealand believe that for an overwhelming amount of time\u2014close to 100 years, now\u2014the Australians have not been taking notice of evidence-based information in terms of apple imports. If we now start to do exactly the same thing as that, we will be as bad as the Australians\u2014and that is something I do not want to have any part in, as far as this Government is concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e826d9bc24dd4686afc8d386cdc39c59\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What will the importation of honey and bee products do for New Zealand\u2019s balance of payments deficit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f0d4c0b729f45bf92a577a758c138fd\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Make it a lot sweeter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5068ab4ca024221a8ebb5860fcf686d\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! At the present time, New Zealand exports about $30 million worth of honey. If we were to take the actions that Mr Ardern is suggesting and intervene politically in these matters, it would not be very long before New Zealand, which is the most export-dependent developed country in the world, faced barriers all over the world\u2014and we depend on 95 percent of our agricultural produce for 65 percent of our entire foreign exchange earnings. That is about the most self-defeating piece of advice I have ever heard from any member of any Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e62ece6a4614f4c9146db780ae5e75c\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any essential agricultural industry in New Zealand that the Government is not prepared to put at risk from imported diseases, in its craven attempt to satisfy the free-market ideology of the World Trade Organization; if so, which ones are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022138add9096974adba63702d085fc6926\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: When I said that New Zealand has an evidence and science-based biosecurity system, that is exactly what I meant. If there was evidence of a risk put before the Director-General of Agriculture and Forestry, or before responsible Ministers, then of course New Zealand would stop any imports. But if the evidence suggests there is no feasible or viable risk whatever, then we would be acting against all of the international agreements we have as a trading nation in protecting ourselves from any such imports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224da99c653c374a83975417df168524f8\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister met with the industry group and the pan-industry group concerned with all agricultural sector industries, including viticulture and horticulture as well as the bee industry, what basis or science did he use to allay their fears that by allowing the import of honey, we would not at the same time import European foulbrood\u2014on what science basis did he make that decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226adddf19c9b34ec696470ddea8c8b2c2\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, on a scientist\u2019s basis. The independent group of scientists, from both New Zealand and overseas, who peer-reviewed this decision are all reputable scientists. They have all vouched for the fact that we have the most minimal amount of risk involved in it. And if Mr Ardern is suggesting, on behalf of National members, that National would change the Biosecurity Act of 1993 and make biosecurity decisions on a political basis, let him get up and say that now, and let the National Party acknowledge that. Then we will go into the next election with the agricultural community knowing full well what a danger to New Zealand\u2019s trade the National Party really is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8ea90434434315bf20926eeafa8327\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister assessed the likely cost of the importation of European foulbrood to our bee industry, our viticultural industry, our horticultural industry, and our agricultural industry, or is this just another one of those examples of where, once it is in, Government members will say: \u201CThat\u2019s too bad; treat it with antibiotics.\u201D, without worrying about the science that says it will come in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ecb204668245a18aca588255f00cad\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The scientific advice that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry has in front of it, which I have seen as the responsible Minister, is that the heat-treating systems the honey is required to go through\u2014that is, honey from Australia and the Pacific Islands only; those are the only sources being considered here, and not honey from elsewhere\u2014reduces to millionths of a percentage point the chance of any kind of infestation of European foulbrood. Let me remind the member for one second: the varroa bee mite did not come here by any decision of the Director-General of Agriculture and Forestry; it was brought in by somebody. We have an absolute prohibition on live bee imports, yet we ended up with the varroa bee mite. The member should contemplate that before he continues digging in the big hole he has now got himself into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0e1573f18394c599cd0a8364cd978e8\u0022\u003EInformation Technology\u2014Government Promotion\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa75780821ec4d0caa56caa681e6ee84\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Information Technology: What feedback has he received on the Government\u2019s promotion of information technology?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00224c5a58a710124f0c8c76b812817a2a1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c5a58a710124f0c8c76b812817a2a1a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister for Information Technology):\u003C/span\u003E Last week New Zealand hosted the successful Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (Icann) conference, which was attended by over 750 international experts. New Zealand also chaired a parallel meeting of Pacific communications Ministers that decided to support a regional digital strategy, based on a Wellington declaration, which included investigation of joint purchasing of satellite bandwidth and a regional approach to anti-spam. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280f494f8036f4fc2acdff45594546410\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister received on broadband uptake in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350658693f144031b3a0deaac631f24f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: During the Icann conference, I met with Dr Vint Cerf, the Chairman of Icann and well known as the \u201Cfather of the Internet\u201D. He told me that New Zealand\u2019s broadband performance was far too low, and urged the Government to accelerate development in that area. The Government is currently undertaking a stocktake of the telecommunications regulatory environment. Announcements on the outcome of that process will be made by mid-year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022529a71d1beeb49c3bb9a4110ecf9a214\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: How confident is the Minister of reaching the targets set down in the Digital Strategy, which he released, of New Zealand being in the top half of the OECD for broadband uptake by next year, and in the top quartile for broadband uptake by the year 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264dd59b74e024f4b932d55b1c17bfb02\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I have a high degree of confidence that measures being developed within the regulatory stocktake will improve New Zealand\u2019s performance towards those goals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dd22beaf3434417a370af1605c9293c\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: My question was not about how much progress had been made towards those goals; I guess that if we made one position move, the Minister would claim progress. My question was simply this: how confident is he that we will meet those targets laid out in the Digital Strategy of our being in the top half of the OECD by next year\u2014 given that we are 22nd at present\u2014and in the top quartile by 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365de20fa1ee447281792d16c7c02a88\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It is very pleasing to have the Opposition\u2019s support for the contention that we are 22nd out of 30, and that that is not good enough. This Government is determined to improve New Zealand\u2019s broadband performance, and is moving expeditiously to that end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275266f5143aa4d9dab6a5f3880644d7b\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister claim that the Government is \u201Cmoving expeditiously\u201D, when the issue of broadband penetration has been an issue for debate ever since this Government came to power, it is now heading towards its 7th year in office, and the Prime Minister in the Prime Minister\u2019s statement this year said that the Government is \u201Clooking into it\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b441c0151d1a45e6aea148bbdeb657ab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I would have thought it was in that member\u2019s interest not to have that question answered, as he was the Minister who presided over 10 years of inaction, when his Government did nothing to improve the telecommunications environment\u2014and he was famous for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebb8387e3926486c9ba8a839e4dd648f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2fc65187a344186ab1e968324ef38c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2fc65187a344186ab1e968324ef38c7\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, I am sorry I did not do this at the end of question No. 11; you moved to question No. 12 very quickly. I seek leave of the House to table a petition from the bee industry to Parliament expressing the concerns that I mentioned earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d311863acd246cd92b38641e412eb02\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table some documents from a pan-industry group, based on good science, showing why it would not be a good idea to allow honey imports into New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a892b399281d4fd0b0fae92d43a349a9\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a media report by Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officials stating that they are very concerned about the heat treatment process, and that they could not guarantee that it will have the success\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227047bfedb8f544f0aef00d46c0e7b461\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bef1dde1d4f141ad8758596e7490511f\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba3d761758d04df48522585feb17be85\u0022\u003EWine-box Inquiry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002206ef653b15e24088af56c94ea260b022\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206ef653b15e24088af56c94ea260b022\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the answer to question for written answer No. 4381 that shows that the Government has spent a total of $1.441 million on legal fees\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e9ee297e00f4c6da2a9267382fc5e76\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2a44bea804344eb8002b791a51685e7\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022719b00dcda1d4cc3b41fb477bd16737b\u0022\u003EHuman Rights\u2014United Nations Special Rapporteur\u2019s Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002282b7ef01236a4881b7938a0bcff51ae6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282b7ef01236a4881b7938a0bcff51ae6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Tariana Turia and Dr Pita Sharples seeking to debate under Standing Order 380 a report of the special rapporteur on the situation of human rights and fundamental freedoms of indigenous peoples. The release of the report appears to be a matter of recent occurrence, but I am not convinced that the report from the United Nations body is a matter for which there is ministerial responsibility, even though the subject matter of the report clearly relates to matters of obvious interest to the Government of New Zealand. Nevertheless, whether or not there is a ministerial responsibility, consideration of this report does not require the pre-arranged business of the House to be set aside for it today. It can be considered over a longer time frame than that. I am therefore not prepared to accept the application. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d4da34f4ff346888d22270ae7b05824\u0022\u003EFinancial Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002214c665f0ff3944e1acfc5e8d92345c1c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a09f3431b1d5436b99cdf795b288c849\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a09f3431b1d5436b99cdf795b288c849\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Standing Orders provide for the financial review debate to be the Committee stage of the Appropriation (2004/05 Financial Review) Bill. The debate is organised into three distinct parts. It commences with a debate on the annual financial statements of the Government as reported on by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Once this debate is disposed of, the Committee debates individual financial reviews of the departments and Offices of Parliament, as reported on by select committees. There is a list of financial reviews available for debate on the Table, along with copies of the select committee reports, for members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe debate on the Government\u2019s financial position may be fairly wide ranging, but the debates on the individual financial reviews of departments and Offices of Parliament should be relevant to their performance in the 2004-05 financial year and their current operations. Members should note that they may have no more than two calls on each financial review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EFour hours is allowed for these two segments of the financial review debate. At the conclusion of the 4 hours, a single question is put on the provisions of the bill. There is no amendment or debate on this question. The Chairperson reports the bill to the House and it is set down for its third reading forthwith. There is no debate on the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EI ask members to turn to the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the annual financial statements of the Government. The question is that the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the annual financial statements of the Government for the year ended 30 June be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e057107c759492e86bbbf6dade62f0c\u0022\u003ETreasury\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229285c38afd374d36b373c97d0a9eff99\u0022\u003EFinancial Statements of the Government of New Zealand for the year ended 30 June 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9322265fceb45ce8c71303c6906f041\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9322265fceb45ce8c71303c6906f041\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Let me start by saying that the financial statements in relation to the year ended 30 June 2005 will make a lot better reading than the financial statements for the year ended 30 June 2006. As we know, this Government has presided over an economy it inherited\u2014that it did absolutely nothing to create\u2014and over the 6 years that it has had the economy under its control, it has done nothing to improve it. It squandered the conditions and failed to pick up the most fundamental of challenges around our economy\u2014the ability to make sure that New Zealand is competitive and goes forward with a spring in its step, and the ability to cope with the down cycles that happen in every economic cycle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI contrast that performance with the performance in Australia. What I saw, and what New Zealanders see every day, in Australia is a Government committed to lowering taxes and the tax burden, to pouring billions of dollars into infrastructure, to welcoming the private sector, to fixing tertiary education, and to fixing outputs from skills. What have we seen from this Government? We have not seen a single private toll road constructed in New Zealand. The energy sector is in complete disarray. The Minister of Finance, or the Minister for Tertiary Education\u2014wearing one of his many other hats today\u2014is finally coming out and recognising that there is a major blunder in the tertiary education sector. We had a growth rate that was zero for the 6 months of last year and is likely to be considerably poorer for the balance of this year. Yesterday Treasury told the country that growth would be weaker than it thought. All of this has come from a Government that has had all of the revenue in the world to do some decent things, but has failed miserably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhat is even worse, and is probably even more alarming than that\u2014and I know that it privately worries Dr Cullen a great deal\u2014is a report in the \u201CBusiness Herald\u201D today about Fletcher Building, one of the icons of the New Zealand business community, that it is looking, with its advisers Credit Suisse First Boston, to move its head office to Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E New Zealanders might wonder why a company like Fletcher Building, which has been very successful, is considering joining many others like Lion Nathan and Nufarm that have picked up their head offices and moved them to Australia. Dr Cullen knows exactly the reason for companies doing that: our company tax rate is higher than the company tax rate in Australia. Our tax revenue is being hollowed out because Australian investors are snapping up New Zealand companies left, right, and centre. Those Australian shareholders want imputation credits and fully franked dividends. So a company like Fletcher Building, which can be and has been a very successful company, providing an enormous amount of ancillary business and growth in our economy, is looking at moving to Australia when it should be staying in New Zealand. I say that move, if nothing else, is a sheer sign of this Government\u2019s failure in the last 6 years. The fact that Fletcher Building is looking at moving its operation is clear and demonstrable evidence that this Government has failed in the last 6 years. That company is not alone; many other companies are doing the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EToday we came down to the House and we asked Michael Cullen, the Minister of Finance, the most simple question of all on the very same topic: does he support a business tax review that would be revenue neutral\u2014that is, one that he has to take from one hand and give to the other. We asked whether that was the reason he is exploring these crazy options, such as a payroll tax, and looking at all these unusual things. The Minister of Finance\u2014the man who has said: \u201CThe fiscal buck stops with me.\u201D\u2014could not even get up in the House today and tell us whether the whole aim of the business tax review is to be fiscally neutral. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhen we asked him the question a couple of weeks ago, he came out with what I thought was a pretty interesting answer. When I asked him whether the review would be fiscally neutral, he said: \u201CThe review will determine what the review will do.\u201D It was not one of Dr Cullen\u2019s greatest lines, I have to say. He is known for saying better one-liners than that. Even though I may not have agreed with the comment about the \u201Cideological burp\u201D, at least it was half-amusing when he said it. He told us that the review will decide what the review will do\u2014even though he told us that he actually decides whether these things happen and that the fiscal buck stops with him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWell, the Minister of Finance is losing it because he does not even know whether he will still be the Minister of Finance when Budget 2007 and Budget 2008 roll around. I do not think Helen Clark was trying to give him the message publicly. Journalists asked me that question yesterday and I answered that it was a bit unkind to say Helen Clark was trying to move Michael Cullen on permanently\u2014she just does not know whether he is coming or going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022821a93c10d954e429e174906489851de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022821a93c10d954e429e174906489851de\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday Treasury warned us of a possible recession. Treasury says the economy has stalled. We know it stalled in the second half of last year, and Treasury says it does not look as if it will grow much this year. I think it is fair to say that all the barriers, hurdles, bureaucratic red tape, and the huge tax grab of this Labour Government are finally catching up and throttling our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EA classic example of one of the things that is throttling New Zealand\u2019s economy is Transit New Zealand\u2019s assumption of the role of the ultimate dictator of development. I could do no better than to read to this Committee what the Rodney Economic Development Trust has said. The trust is a group based north of Auckland that contains some of the serious business hitters north of Auckland, including some of the major business players who have business investments around most of the North Island. The trust states: \u201CIt is not the people of Rodney who are determining our district\u2019s future, but Transit New Zealand. They now decide where people will live, where people will work, where we will develop our infrastructure, where our children will go to school, how we use our land, where business will locate.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ETransit is now dictating totally the development of the Rodney district. Yesterday I met with a constituent who has a proposal for a major investment in part of Rodney. It would require the purchase of land. He does not know whether to go ahead and buy that land, because he is worried that Transit will say he cannot go ahead with that development and, therefore, he cannot afford to buy the land if he cannot go ahead with the development. That is the extent to which Transit now totally dictates investment north of Auckland. That example is the tip of the iceberg. At present there is $2 billion worth of investment ready to go ahead in Rodney, which would create a lot of growth. Do people know how much of that growth can go ahead because of what Transit dictates? One-tenth of that investment can go ahead, because of Transit\u2019s dictating and saying no to 90 percent of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Rodney Economic Development Trust also said that only 15 percent of the knowledge economy zone in Rodney\u2014which is the largest industrial development in Auckland\u2014can go ahead, because Transit says it will not construct off ramps because it cannot connect that development to its motorway. So the rest of that development will not be able to go ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want this Minister, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, to explain to this Parliament how New Zealand\u2019s growth can go ahead when Transit is dictating and controlling so much development. Even in Helensville\u2014in my good colleague John Key\u2019s electorate\u2014Transit has said a birthing unit cannot expand because it will not be allowed to have extra vehicles come on to Transit\u2019s highway. That is how dopey this situation is becoming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe economy and growth are being throttled. The Rodney Economic Development Trust has said Transit\u2019s control has now cost Rodney 6,251 jobs. In just one area 6,251 jobs have been lost, and $129 million worth of export earnings are gone because of Transit\u2019s dictatorship and Transit\u2019s saying no to all developments. The President of the Labour Party, Mike Williams, is on the Transit board, and that is the extent to which cronyism and the Labour Party are now crippling and throttling our economy. It is not just the high taxes or the high interest rates that people are labouring under with this Government; it is also the direct control over and the throttling of investment by Transit New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDo members know what Transit has said to the people of Warkworth? It has said that 50 years ago it built a bypass there and, because those stupid people have dared to build houses on the other side of that bypass, it will not build them another one. Imagine if Telecom had that attitude. I invite members to think back to the telephones of 50 years ago. In my patch we had party lines. One picked up the telephone receiver and said: \u201CWorking?\u201D, and if no one said: \u201CYes I am working.\u201D, one would ring the handle. If Telecom had said it would not put in any more infrastructure compared with what it had 50 years ago, we would still be on party lines and Telecom would be saying we could not have any more people live, invest, and work in an area because it would not put in any more infrastructure. That is what Transit is saying. Michael Cullen cannot hide behind Transit because, at the end of the day, this Labour Government funds Transit, so it cannot complain about loss of growth opportunity when Transit is crippling this economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00229eaa1aa4c39443118b7895a8ed9ed6a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eaa1aa4c39443118b7895a8ed9ed6a8\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the set of statements, I want to focus on three themes. Although members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee did not, obviously, have the pleasure of agreeing with each other, we had the pleasure of the Minister of Finance\u2019s company, and that of the senior civil servants from Treasury. In particular, I want to direct members\u2019 attention to an element that reflects the very moderate, if not conservative, approach that has been taken and that we are likely to see a great deal more of. I direct members\u2019 attention to page 5 of this very lucid document, which reflects quite a great deal of sensible discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EA great deal of nonsense has been spoken about in relation to whether there is a ballooning number of either wages or bureaucrats, and about how we, as the Government, are doing precious little about it. I direct those members\u2019 attention to page 5, where it is quite clearly stated that the Government and the senior advisers from Treasury have injected a tone and a note of moderation into future discussions to do with the personnel costs of the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOf course, this issue takes me on, as well, to respond to those unwise remarks made in relation to productivity. Yes, over recent time we have seen a great deal of growth and improvement in fortunes on the basis of labour utilisation rates, but there is now a great deal of focus on productivity. I have no doubt that, during the upcoming 12 months, when we exercise and show the moderation reflected on page 5, we will remind the key people\u2014as Treasury and, indeed, the Minister of Finance have reminded people\u2014of the importance of achieving more productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut let us remind the many New Zealanders who are either listening or who remain concerned that a more balanced account is given as to what is happening in terms of our strategy to drive fine ideas. We had a fantastic tranche idea to use the use the term \u201Cdividend day\u201D to describe 1 April, when the third tranche of our family assistance package was rolled out. It is something that was a key part to the election contest, but, indeed, it has been well and truly built into our fiscal projections. The group of people on this side of the House, when they conceive of the role of the State in relation to our economic stewardship, believe there are very few things more precious than those who have the role of raising children. The education, productivity, attitude, and aptitude of the next generation we are raising\u2014I have more than a passing interest in this, having enjoyed the pleasure both of fathering and rearing seven children, and I look to many mokopunas on the way. However, Working for Families is an element that clearly distinguishes the way in which we conceive of our role in the wider debate about political economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EA great deal of nonsense, including unwise statements made on websites, etc., has been spoken about our interest-free student loan programme. I can tell members that people up and down Te Taitokerau, throughout Auckland, and in a variety of far-flung places, are completely and utterly over the moon with the bold step our Prime Minister took in relation to the student loan scheme. It will cause a whole host of people to enjoy coming back to Aotearoa to join the great march of achieving productivity outcomes, but, more important, it will also remove a great deal of burden from the minds of parents and grandparents as they watch their children and mokopuna move on to university. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn relation to business tax changes, it is unfortunate today that a great deal has been said and that rather emotional and inaccurate words such as \u201Csecrecy\u201D have been used in respect of the business tax change reform agenda. The reality is that when the civil servants are providing advice and when the Ministers are looking at options, they need the space, the scope, and, indeed, a small measure of privacy so that when public documents are being prepared for consultation, that process can be done on the basis that no injudicious or unwise things are thrown out into the public before the appropriate time. I hope that the very people who have been making those accusations and using, in a very silly fashion, emotional words such as \u201Csecrecy\u201D bear in mind that a key element to our system is that officials must be able to give free and frank advice and that Ministers have the scope to take or reject it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe have had the election, we have identified and have been very public about those things that we will spend our time on, and business tax changes and policies are an important element into the future. I look forward to the not too distant future when the sentiments that the people invested in can be shown to have been true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022 data-id=\u002284f68500616f4740aa562b16cd7a4fa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284f68500616f4740aa562b16cd7a4fa2\u0022\u003ECRAIG FOSS (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Where do we stand on the Appropriation (2004/05 Financial Review) Bill? We oppose it, of course. Why? Are we against investment in the economy? No. Are we against quality spending? No. But given the track record of this current Labour Government, of course we oppose the bill. We have to oppose it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere has been a massive growth of taxpayer funds. We have referred to its misappropriation\u2014to turn a phrase\u2014which the Finance and Expenditure Committee discussed at some length throughout its deliberations. Even in spite of what we have just heard from the previous speaker, we have recently had Treasury\u2019s forecast that the economy is stalled and has shrunk. That is not an ideological burp. They are hard economic numbers and the chickens are starting to come home to roost. How can that be? How can we be going into recession, as warned by Treasury and numerous other forecasters, after we have had a nominal GDP growth of 43.1 percent over the last 6 years, according to forecasts for 1999-2000 to 2005-06? The economy has grown 43 percent. Congratulations to the dairy farmers and lamb producers on helping us grow, but here is perhaps a clue. Core Government revenue grew 55.7 percent over the same period. That core Government revenue was taken from the productive part of the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EBut why on earth are we going into recession, given the policies and the accolades that the previous speaker was talking about? This Government is spending and taxing us into recession. Again, it is not National Party doomsayers who have made those accusations. This is not spin from some public relations unit. These are hard economic statistics and fact backed up by Treasury and numerous other producers. Growth in the last quarter, December 2005, was negative 0.1 percent. Combine that with September 2005, which was plus 0.1 percent, and members will see that we are already in a flat economy of 0 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot of talk lately in various speeches around the place from various Ministers about economic transformation. What a massive admission of defeat! After 6 years of 43-odd percent growth, we have to somehow transform the economy? I tell Mr Cullen that that is a massive admission of defeat. I say to Mr Mallard that he is about to get a hospital pass, because he is about to inherit a bit of a lame duck, I feel. There is nothing to show for the 43.1 percent nominal growth we have had over recent years, which, again, was no thanks to, and in spite of, the current policies of the Government. We have nothing to show for it. Is this as good as it gets after such growth? In the 1999-2000 year $41.6 billion in revenue was taken by the Government. The 2005-06 forecast is $69 billion\u2014money that the Government has decided it needs to take out of the economy to run affairs as it thinks it should. Yet hospital waiting lists are as bad as they have ever been. There have been no new roads and no real roading infrastructure has been invested in. Again, this bill is not an appropriation bill; it is a misappropriation into the welfare for families package. It should be called the \u201CKiwislaver Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EWith regard to electoral spending, there has been a large growth in misappropriation of public funds for election spending, which is under review by the Auditor-General. Where has that money gone? Is the 10.3 percent growth in Government administration in the December 2005 year not a mass misappropriation of funds? What on earth are all those people doing? Even given the growth and the statistics, with $69 billion - odd about to be taken from our economy by this Government to be redistributed, our OECD standings are exactly the same as they were about 5 or 6 years ago. In spite of about $18 billion more being taken by the Government out of the economy and in spite of the 43 percent growth in GDP, our OECD standings have not moved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003EOther nations are rocketing up behind us. Previous socialist economies are rocketing up behind us and are totally rejecting the idea that someone earning $480 a week should have some of his or her taxes redistributed to some family earning over $100,000 per annum. People will reject that model; they know that it does not work, and, for the life of me, I cannot understand why this current administration keeps looking back to the past to find some solution to the future. That administration is wrong. If we keep looking to the past we will stay in the past. With growth at that rate there will be nothing left to redistribute. Is this the utopia that the current administration has taken us towards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00224eb38d0501904103bbbd92156d501a13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eb38d0501904103bbbd92156d501a13\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E We know from this Government that it has run out of puff, just like the Minister of Finance has. That is why Helen Clark does not know whether the Minister will be in the job in another 12 months or 24 months. I can assure him that he will not be in the job in 30 months, because by then, at least, there will have been an election and he will be gone, along with a whole lot of his colleagues. They are destined to sit on some park bench somewhere to reflect on 9 years\u20146 years when they inherited an economy with which they could have delivered substantial changes to New Zealand, and 3 years when they sat around contemplating their navel, unsure of what to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EMy parliamentary colleague the Hon Dr Lockwood Smith talked very eloquently about the issue of infrastructure. Infrastructure is a very interesting issue as it relates to New Zealand. New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure is failing us, and not just in roading. I heard a very interesting example just the other week about the New Zealand Herald, whose sales force used to achieve something like 14 calls a day around Auckland and now achieves six. That is not a productivity gain. Mr Jones can read some sort of clapped-out piece of research on productivity that ignores half the economy\u2014the fast-growing bit around the public sector. He can ignore at his peril if he chooses to, as Dr Cullen has, the research from Treasury that told him: \u201CWe don\u2019t know quite where you\u2019re spending the $4 billion a year, each and every year, in health; we don\u2019t really know what you\u2019ve got for it, but we think you\u2019ve got nothing, we think it\u2019s delivered nothing, and we think that fundamentally you\u2019re going down the wrong track.\u201D We think that is called a productivity disaster. We are not surprised that Dr Cullen referred to the Treasury report as an \u201Cideological burp\u201D, although, funnily enough, Dr Cullen himself has made it quite clear that he will not keep funding a health system that is clearly out of control. He demands results from it, because he knows it is on the wrong course and it has failed miserably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBut my colleague Dr Lockwood Smith made a point around infrastructure that I thought was absolutely right. New Zealand cannot drive productivity and greater growth without infrastructure in our community. It is not just roading, it is around all sorts of areas of infrastructure, such as energy. We have a lakes system that is low. We are not building power generation in this country at the level that we should, that we demand, and that we need. The Government has no solutions at all. We are starting to see some very interesting mutterings and utterances coming out of places like the Commerce Commission, which runs the risk, I think, of frightening off some New Zealand businesses in relation to the amount of investment they might make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt goes on and on. It goes around the area of telecommunications, and ultimately goes around the issue of water. New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure cannot cope with the kind of growth that New Zealand needs. Yet we are seeing a Government that is quite happy to trade that position for a position that says: \u201CWe would rather have the support of the Greens, and therefore we will let the Green Party negotiate and draft probably one of the most important pieces of legislation in New Zealand\u2019s history, the Land Transport Management Bill, even though we know that it will do very little.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to make some comments in relation to Working for Families and the Inland Revenue Department. The department made a number of comments when it came before the Finance and Expenditure Committee. One of the comments that I think will prove very interesting over the next 12 to 24 months related to the number of New Zealand families that find themselves debtors of the Inland Revenue Department. I say that because \u201CWelfare for Families\u201D\u2014the package the Government rolled out on April Fool\u2019s Day\u2014requires New Zealand families to estimate exactly their level of income. If they incorrectly estimate their income and therefore underestimate their paid income, they will be overpaid under Working for Families. A very similar policy was involved in Australia. That policy was rolled out, and Australian families ran up about $1 billion in debt. After 24 months those Australian families had to have their debts written off because they could not afford to repay them. When we raised this issue with Dr Cullen, he was kind enough to tell us that the Inland Revenue Department had made numerous changes and that those issues would not occur in New Zealand. The only small problem is that although the department has invested a little bit in technology, it does not seem to have the people who can ring to tell New Zealanders that they have been overpaid. They will be ringing past tense, so the families will be in debt anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBy the way, Dr Cullen might be a little alarmed to know that people in the department have been emailing to tell me that they are under huge pressure from the Minister to try to comply, even though they have no hope of doing it. These emails are telling us that those people cannot comply with the issues, and that New Zealand families will become debtors. What a disgrace it is to put families in debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00227fdcef11ed614a61a7b7d510db224cca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fdcef11ed614a61a7b7d510db224cca\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E One of the interesting questions, as we look at what might be Dr Cullen\u2019s final Budget, is what will his legacy be as Minister of Finance. I struggle, during my time in Parliament, to think what Michael Cullen\u2019s legacy, as Minister of Finance, will be. What will he be known for? Will it be for hiking taxes to 39c in the dollar? Perhaps the \u201Cchewing gum Budget\u201D might be the one that sticks in people\u2019s memories. It might be the dopey Cullen fund that is his legacy. It is a struggle to think what Michael Cullen\u2019s legacy will be for the financial health and financial management of this country. That shows that the Clark-Cullen Government has lost any sense of vision, any sense of purpose, and any policy programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe know that Michael Cullen is one of the only competent Ministers that Helen Clark has, and that is why Michael Cullen is exhausted. He is absolutely exhausted because he has to do everything. He has to come to the House and rescue his ministerial colleagues. He is the one who has to mop up when a Minister is in trouble. What is the reward that Helen Clark gives Michael Cullen for those years of service? It is this: \u201CWell, he is in his early sixties, and he will do this Budget, but maybe no more.\u201D Helen Clark does not say something like that by mistake. She sunk the knife into her own Minister of Finance; that is what she did. How can New Zealand have confidence in the Minister of Finance, Michael Cullen, when Helen Clark herself, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, has said: \u201CWell, he is in his early sixties. He may not do any more Budgets.\u201D That is what she said. She has wrecked what little vestige of credibility Michael Cullen had. Helen Clark is signalling that he will not be around for much longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBy the way, what difference would it make if Michael Cullen were not the Minister of Finance or the Treasurer? It would not make any difference at all, would it? Last year\u2019s Budget was a \u201Cnothing\u201D Budget. Mike Williams tried to talk it up, and he talked it up rather well. The problem was that there was nothing to talk up. That is why I think Helen Clark has come along, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, and stuck the knife deep into Michael Cullen\u2019s side. How like Helen Clark it is! I guarantee she has not sat down with Michael Cullen to discuss his future with him. I guarantee she has not sat down with Michael Cullen and said: \u201CMichael, we have been good friends for 30 years.\u201D Oh no, she would not say that, would she? She could not say that. It would be: \u201CWe were terrible friends for 30 years, and we\u2019ve been working together for a few.\u201D She would say to him: \u201CWhat are your plans?\u201D. But no, Helen Clark has gone public and said that this year\u2019s Budget could be Michael Cullen\u2019s last because he is getting to be an old man. That is what Helen Clark has told the nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI have to ask what Michael Cullen did as Minister of Finance when he was young, when he was fresh, when he was new, and when he had enthusiasm for the job. The only thing I can recall is his putting up taxes rather than letting ordinary, hard-working Kiwis keep the money. And there was the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. Oh, and he accidentally bought an airline. He said: \u201CI didn\u2019t mean to end up being the owner of it, but I sort of accidentally found myself being the owner.\u201D Michael Cullen\u2019s legacy will be a sad, empty legacy\u2014a legacy of lost opportunity. The best economic growth conditions in my adult lifetime have been squandered. We are now facing growth of next to zero, a possibility of some negative growth, a loss of economic confidence, and a Minister of Finance whom Helen Clark has no confidence in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00227370db4cc13a4dd5ba5becccc7b68892\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227370db4cc13a4dd5ba5becccc7b68892\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E That member has had his one call in the debate, and as usual he has wasted it. At least, for once, he managed to exit from the sewer for a brief moment to talk about the state of the economy. How his cheeks must be blushing\u2014all four of them\u2014from the attacks on him by his previous leader and founder of the ACT party, who has accurately summed up Mr Hide\u2019s contribution to politics in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBut one thing that happened this afternoon is that I did not hear a single call from Mr Key\u2014who has become the Tony Ryall of fiscal policy more and more in this House\u2014for massive borrowing in order to fund tax cuts. That is another policy being prepared for dumping by the time of the next election, because that was the core of National\u2019s policy at the last election. But of course Mr Key will not be the finance spokesperson by the time of the next election, if he achieves that ambition, because he is spending every week white-anting Don Brash, trying to take over the job of Leader of the Opposition. Well, bring another one on, and another one down, and another one up, and another one down. It is a bit like National\u2019s policy on trade in honey and apples. It depends where one sits as to which side one is on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe inherited an economy that had been through nearly 2 years of sub-zero growth under National, with 7 percent unemployment under National. That is what we inherited. We have delivered not merely 43 percent nominal growth but also the lowest unemployment rate in the developed world. If that were my only legacy I would be damned proud to leave it, because none of the members opposite can claim that. Nor can the previous leader of the ACT party claim that as his legacy as a Minister of Finance. Unfortunately for them, I will be around for a lot more years yet. I have seen off so many National Party finance spokespeople in the last 15 years I have lost count, and I expect to see off a fair few more yet, as Mr Key gives up his great hope to save New Zealand and goes back to being merely a very rich man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhat else do we have to show for our growth? We have seen real income growth for New Zealanders\u2014not just for the rich, as under National, but for the great bulk of New Zealanders, who are seeing real income growth. We have seen a massive increase in infrastructure spending, particularly in roading\u2014and more is to come. We have seen the creation of the super fund, and the Government saving for the long-term future. We will see the creation of the KiwiSaver scheme. We have reduced spending on benefits as a proportion of Government spending and a proportion of GDP. We have increased spending on health, education, science, and roading. And what does National come here and call for every day? It asks us to spend, spend, spend. Half National\u2019s questions every day are about why the Government is not spending more in some area or another. Well, it will take a large pot of indigenous honey, spread as thinly as the National Party thinks it needs to be spread, to pay for all the promises National is implying at present. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe National Party has discovered the bottom of the cycle. Dr Lockwood Smith has discovered a particular interest in the bottom of the economic cycle. Let me tell him that National\u2019s bottom was a lot flabbier than the bottom will be under the Labour Government. National\u2019s bottom was sub-zero growth for nearly 2 years. Its bottom was rising unemployment. Its bottom was increasing poverty. Its bottom was cutting the level of New Zealand\u2019s superannuation. That is what we saw in the last 2 years of the previous National-led Government. I must say that my cheeks are firm and rosy compared to the bottom under the National Government in the late 1990s. We are very proud of our record and our success. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBusiness is telling National to stop talking the economy down. Business is telling National that we will not have a recession; this economy is healthy. The chief executive of Fletcher Building\u2014which is not planning to go offshore\u2014has told National many times that he prefers New Zealand\u2019s corporate tax system to Australia\u2019s corporate tax system. But Mr Key will not listen, because he has no respect for the people who actually produce and make things. His idea of an economy is people who make money out of nothing by shuffling paper around and speculating on the foreign exchange market. That is the kind of Minister of Finance he would be\u2014a Minister of Finance for international financiers, not for New Zealand\u2019s productive sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EReports noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8b145125d894b628c28f2aa826de005\u0022\u003EOffice of the Auditor-General\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef9783fd41e0479e95224ec9e00ce535\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef9783fd41e0479e95224ec9e00ce535\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Every year the Government distributes hundreds of millions of dollars to various non-governmental organisations dealing with health, social development, sport, and education, to mention but a few. Shortly after I arrived in Parliament I was very struck by the number of people who came to me spontaneously with tales about how much of that money is poorly spent or, indeed, misappropriated. They told me that massive wastage was going on in the system. Since then, of course, there have been scandals\u2014such as that involving the Pipi Foundation, and all kinds of misappropriation of funds in polytechs and many other areas\u2014to actually prove the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAbout 2 years ago I first raised with the Auditor-General the question of whether non-governmental organisations were obliged to produce audited accounts before the Government disbursed money to them. I was told that there was no such requirement. Two years later\u2014the first time since then that the Auditor-General has appeared before the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014I was able to ask him the same question. By the way, the Auditor-General made it clear 2 years ago that he would like to see the Government adopt a strategy whereby no Government funds would be granted to a non-governmental organisation unless the organisation first produced audited accounts. So again I asked the Auditor-General whether that was now a requirement in that situation, and again he said it was not. So the fact is that as we sit here today Government funds continue to be disbursed willy-nilly to many, many non-governmental organisations in all the sectors I have mentioned, and others, without the necessity of audited financial accounts being produced as a prerequisite. I believe today that Parliament needs to determine\u2014and I recommend this strongly to the Government\u2014that that situation be brought to an end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI have asked many people whether they would be prepared to hand, say, $5,000, of their own money, in $1 coins to a stranger, for a purpose to be determined, without that person producing audited financial accounts, and, of course, everyone has told me that they would not be so stupid. I then ask them whether the standard should be any lower when the $5,000 in $1 coins is handed to a stranger\u2014a non-governmental organisation, in this context\u2014without previously produced audited accounts simply because that money belongs to someone else. That is the situation we are talking about. We are talking about money that has been compulsorily collected from taxpayers being given to non-governmental organisations without the prerequisite of financial statements. I answer that question myself by saying surely that requires of us not a lower standard than we would apply to our financial affairs but a higher standard. Therefore, I believe it is time the Government said that it will not dispense as it currently does. I agree there needs to be a threshold. I have suggested in the Finance and Expenditure Committee that it could be, say, $5,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI suggest that figure because that is the threshold the Lottery Grants Board insists on when it gives away money that has been collected from the profits of gambling. It does not give more than $5,000 to any organisation without two prerequisites being met: first, that the organisation produces audited accounts for the previous financial year; and, second, that the organisation produces a post-grant audit report stating exactly how the funds are spent. That system came into being some years ago when we had the great \u201Cghost-busting\u201D scandal about such grants. I say to Parliament today that if that is good enough for the Lottery Grants Board then surely it is good enough for the Government itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI warn that if the Government fails to change the rules and adopt those requirements as a standard right across the whole system of disbursement of Government funds to non-governmental organisations, then we will continue to see scandals coming to the attention of this House. To me it follows, as night follows day and as day follows night, that if we continue to give out money as we currently do, that will be the case. I can tell the House that those scandals will be about league clubs spending grants\u2014grants given to them to promote rugby league\u2014on Friday night booze-ups. I could mention many things that, as I said earlier, people have brought to my attention about the way their money is spent. They tell me that as taxpayers they are brassed off, and they wonder how the Government could be so stupid as to continue with the present line. So with those few remarks, I signal my strong support for change. This is covered in the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and I wanted to strengthen it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThere is another matter in the report, which I want to touch on briefly. I agree there is a need to put in place ethical standards around the question of conflicts of interest in respect of agencies outside the supervision of the State Services Commission. Those agencies include polytechs, other tertiary education institutes, and so on, and all sorts of other non-governmental organisations. If that is not done, the House will continue to hear of scandals in that regard, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022636adc3a1f834a9287821180d365a7cf\u0022\u003EMinistry of Agriculture and Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002206cd53e98e3b49dfa2c1ff0776794e8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206cd53e98e3b49dfa2c1ff0776794e8a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E In the brief chance we get to speak on the financial review of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, I want to take the opportunity to put issues to the Minister in the chair, the new Minister of Agriculture, the Hon Jim Anderton. I want him to know that farmers throughout New Zealand have put him on notice that it is his job to represent the concerns of the industry. It has a lot of very significant concerns, particularly as we face a downturn in commodity prices\u2014coming after what I do accept have been 4 or 5 very good years. The Minister\u2019s appointment follows on from the reign of his predecessor, Jim Sutton, who, as Minister of Agriculture, can only be described as a total disaster. He failed, around the Cabinet table, to represent the concerns of farmers. He promoted issues like public access through privately owned farms in this country, and I certainly hope the new Minister will not continue with that sort of debate around the Cabinet table. Mr Sutton also promoted the infamous \u201Cfart tax\u201D, which I am sure the new Minister will assure us is completely off the agenda. Is it little wonder, when a Minister like Mr Anderton\u2019s predecessor promoted notions like that, that he lost the once-safe seat of Aoraki to our member, Jo Goodhew?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe farmers of New Zealand treated the appointment of Mr Anderson with absolute dismay, when that Minister was appointed. They took the opportunity to say to the Minister: \u201CWe accept that you don\u2019t understand much about agriculture, but we understand that you\u2019re prepared to listen.\u201D I repeat the famous words of Mr Anderton: \u201CI will represent you, because I\u2019m No. 3 in Cabinet.\u201D He said: \u201CWhat part of No. 3 don\u2019t you understand?\u201D. I think those words are particularly relevant, considering the issue of the microchipping of farm dogs. Mr Anderton had gone to the farming community and said that that law was ludicrous and he would ensure that it was changed. He went to the Cabinet room, on the 10th floor of the Beehive, and he failed to deliver change, because he at No. 3 was rolled by the Minister at No. 18 in Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo Mr Anderton to date has failed the first test as Minister of Agriculture. But there is now another issue, which we saw signs of on the front steps of Parliament today\u2014the future biosecurity of New Zealand. Farmers, whether or not they are involved in the bee industry, are watching the Minister to make sure that that decision does not put the biosecurity of this country at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFederated Farmers have presented to the Minister a list of 10 simple doable things they want him to achieve. I have addressed the first issue, which is microchipping. He failed on that account. The second issue is that the Department of Conservation and the Minister have the ability, within the Resource Management Act, to argue in more than an advocacy role. To date the Minister has failed, in accepting the decision that Chris Carter, the Minister of Conservation, made with regard to Whangamata. The third doable issue is for the Minister to achieve a way whereby the Department of Conservation will not continue to increase its landholding around the country, unless it has budgeted sufficiently to ensure adequate management of those lands. National waits to see whether the Minister of Agriculture achieves that one. The fourth doable thing is the funding of rural roads, which is a huge component of the rates that farmers throughout New Zealand pay. I remind the Minister that farmers alone, as an industry, pay more than 20 percent of all rates collected by territorial local authorities. Federated Farmers have said to the Minister that he should ensure there is a fair mechanism for paying for those roads, and that all the funds collected from roads end up being spent on roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb06b8aade244fce923908f29c955019\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb06b8aade244fce923908f29c955019\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to congratulate the Hon Jim Anderton on his roles as Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Fisheries. When we were doing the financial reviews, I had an opportunity to go around and talk to farmers and a number of submitters. I looked at Landcorp and visited Asure New Zealand, and in talking to them and to AgriQuality and a number of those people, I was happily surprised at how much confidence they had in the new Minister of Agriculture. It was a delight to hear farmers saying that although they had a few misgivings about the new Minister in the beginning, because in their view he had probably had little to do with farming in the past, that had changed. I received very good reviews from a whole lot of these people during the financial reviews of all those Government entities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EAgriculture is the backbone of this country. We export over 90 percent of what we produce and we have to make sure we keep ahead of other countries in terms of research, increasing value for money, and increasing quality assurance. Particularly in terms of patents and adding value to our products, it is very important that we keep ahead of other nations to make sure that our income keeps coming from export markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EI was delighted when I had the opportunity to visit Asure New Zealand and also to talk with AgriQuality board members. When we hear about the increase in productivity achieved in this country over a number of years, it is really tremendous. Some years ago about 90 percent of our meat was exported as carcasses, but now 90 percent is processed, which is added-value. That is great to see. I was very pleased to see that the meat industry and dairy industry are progressing and adding value to our export market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EOf particular interest to me is biosecurity. That is of very high importance. As an exporting nation, particularly in agriculture, it is very important to ensure that any products that come into the country do not present any biosecurity risk. We recall the false scare about foot-and-mouth on Waiheke Island last year. We have to act quickly and ensure such problems do not occur here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EI do not want to say a lot more. Suffice to say, I am delighted the financial reviews of these entities and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry show they are doing a great job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u002282be8dd7f6be47c5b31acedac7d46579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282be8dd7f6be47c5b31acedac7d46579\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I too would like to talk about the new Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Forestry, but I want to take a bit of a different tack and say that I think it is appropriate, believe it or not, that we have a Minister of Agriculture who does not have a long history in farming or in matters applying to land. The reason is that on two fronts we have some particular issues that need to be attended to and, with due respect, they need to be attended to by a person who is seen as being, for want of a better word, non-partisan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe first issue\u2014and I am surprised it is not mentioned more often by my colleagues these days in Parliament\u2014is our huge balance of payments deficit. As everybody in this Chamber knows, or should know, there is only one real sector of the economy we can realistically look to for the sorts of numbers that will do anything about that balance of payment deficit\u2014and I see the Minister in the chair, Mr Anderton, and my colleague Shane Ardern both nodding\u2014and that is the pastoral farming and forestry sector. There is also fishing and tourism, but this discussion is on agriculture and forestry. We need somebody in the role of Minister who can look at all who are in those industries as being exporters, not just as farmers, as pastoral farmers, or as forestry or sector groups, because with any other area of exporting in this country the imports to fuel the exports\u2014if that makes any sense\u2014are so high that the net gain to New Zealand is infinitesimal. This sector is our major exporting area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe have a Minister who is non-partisan, so, hopefully, he will look at these things in a holistic manner. I have read a couple of things he has written that indicate he will. I hope he thinks I am on the right track and that he sees things as we in New Zealand First do, because we do not accept that all economic activity is good. We believe in the old-fashioned way of earning more than one spends, and our country has not been doing that. We look to the Minister to make this thing right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe other area is far more difficult, far more delicate, and it something that we all know about. Certainly when I was farming I shied away from it, and my brothers, who are still farming, shy away from it: the quality of our water in New Zealand. About 3 years ago Fonterra took the initiative to try to sort this problem out. It required farmers to fence streams and plant appropriate plantings besides streams. It was criticised at the time, but it is not being criticised now. In fact, I am pleased to be able to say\u2014and I hope the Minister will confirm this\u2014we are ahead of the targets in those areas, which just shows that if farmers are shown the need they will respond. Here I acknowledge my friend Shane Ardern, who I know personally got out there in his gumboots and planted thousands of trees on his properties, or on his numerous blocks of land, whatever he happens to own at this point in time. He is not a man to go along with whatever the current fashion is; he is doing it because the science tells him it needs to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI have heard that from our Minister, as well, that if the science says it must be done, then it will be done. We need input from central government, we need local bodies to attend to the matter, and we need farmers to be involved. But I dare go one step further and say that we need other people downstream of them to be involved in the clean-up too, because clean-up is what it is all about. We in this country cannot have a situation, or accept a situation, where our rivers are being polluted and our lakes are dying\u2014so they tell us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a603c4beaf984e2398dc0f831abb2aee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a603c4beaf984e2398dc0f831abb2aee\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I say to the Committee at the outset of my speech in this financial review debate that I do not agree entirely with my colleague who has just resumed his seat. There are very few issues on which we disagree, but on this one I do. I think the biggest risk to New Zealand\u2019s economy is our Minister for Biosecurity. He is the single biggest risk. The second biggest risk to our New Zealand balance of payments is our Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Forestry, who is the same person. I shall tell members why I think that is so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Institute of Economic Research, reporting to Biosecurity New Zealand, put the cost of the didymo incursion in New Zealand at $285 million. We know that that is probably on the conservative side, because its estimates in the past have always been conservative, as will be the estimates we are likely to get from the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry on this. We know they are probably on the light side. Yet after repeated questioning, the Minister, both through written questions and through questions in the House, has constantly said: \u201CUnlike the member Mr Ardern, I do not believe we could have overcome this problem by treating didymo. There is nowhere in the world that knows anything about killing didymo.\u201D Well, I just bring the Minister\u2019s attention to some of the substantial work that has been done internationally that suggests that the two rivers where the incursion was first found could have, and should have, been chemically treated, which would have brought the situation under control for much less than the conservative estimate of $285 million. That is not to mention the further biodiversity loss that will come from the incursion, particularly when it spreads throughout New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EOnce again today a group of land-based, agricultural-based, hard-working New Zealanders protested on the steps of Parliament against this Government and its suggestion that the importation of honey does not present a biosecurity risk. That is what the Minister said\u2014that it does not present a biosecurity risk. Quite frankly, it does. The Minister also said to the group of bee-keepers on the steps of Parliament that he, as the Minister, cannot, under the Biosecurity Act, intervene on matters that are in the realm of the director-general of Biosecurity New Zealand. I thought that was an interesting comment to make, so I went to the Parliamentary Library\u2014our very good Parliamentary Library\u2014for an explanation of which part of the 1993 Act excludes the Minister from being able to intervene when he is not convinced there is a potential biosecurity risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E I have the library\u2019s findings here, which are that it cannot find anything to suggest that the Minister is unable to intervene in a decision in terms of imports or potential biosecurity risks. The library, rather than just relying on its reading of the Act, went further and asked for Laws of New Zealand, a legal encyclopaedia, to have a look at whether that was so. The answer came back that it could not find any area in the 1993 Act that precludes the Minister from being able to intervene in this matter. So I say to the Minister\u2014and I am sure he has his officials scurrying, as we speak, to find the relevant legislation\u2014that I will be interested to hear from him on that. I am sure he will take a call and respond, and that will be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EAlso during this financial review debate, the Minister was asked whether he thought the biosecurity structure in New Zealand was adequately resourced, and I think what he said was: \u201CUnlike the previous Government we have resourced this structure better than it has ever been resourced before.\u201D Yet we found in the case of the foot-and-mouth hoax on Waiheke Island that Biosecurity New Zealand was in breach of section 4 of the Public Finance Act, because the Minister had to appropriate\u2014or misappropriate, it could be suggested, because there was not enough money there\u2014$886,000 under Vote Biosecurity to control what could have been a devastating incursion in this country. So members of the House, and anybody else who might be listening, can surely see by this that Minister Anderton is not on top of his portfolio, and therefore we have a major risk to this nation. A biosecurity breach in this country is the single greatest risk to our exports. If it is the case that heat treatment of honey can keep European foulbrood out, then why does the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry not say unequivocally that this is so? It does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a62f20f568984cc48ab0637efbff2de4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a62f20f568984cc48ab0637efbff2de4\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say the biggest threat to any of the portfolios I represent would be if the National Party\u2014if it ever got into Government\u2014ever made Mr Ardern responsible for any of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256bd1e37b978495898de1e5871543790\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Just answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8ef3f013eb485ea8bcba0f7669e0ed\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I will answer one. This Government has increased resources. There has been an 80 percent increase in baselines for biosecurity since there was a National Government. [Interruption] What is it about an 80 percent increase that Mr Ardern does not understand? He clearly does not understand it, so he should look at the facts. If Mr Ardern thinks I can make the decisions on biosecurity matters, he should examine the Biosecurity Act and see who makes the decisions. It is the chief technical officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e017cf308cb437fbfad80699e232a13\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I just told the Minister I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a568ecf61414ad3811e91733c143ef9\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I suggest that the member read it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b94e2106054bd9b4805f0b45749663\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I got the library to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce03cd300c564765be0d07a6efa5a699\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member not read? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the reality of accountability in this House. We were told by the first National Party speaker debating this report that I am on notice. Well, all Ministers are on notice. They are on notice from the Prime Minister, for a start, who appoints them. They are accountable to the Prime Minister, they are accountable to their Cabinet colleagues, and they are accountable to their constituency, which in this case is the agricultural and horticultural community. I suggest to Mr Ardern that he consult with that community sometimes. He has been railing about how I should not be here and how I should not do this or that, but I have not noticed Federated Farmers saying that. It is a funny thing that in the Dominion Post this morning, I read the headline: \u201CFarmers back Anderton \u2026\u201D. When did I ever dream that I would see a headline like that in the Dominion Post\u2014that well-known socialist newspaper in Wellington? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI know that Mr Ardern does not back Anderton, but he may contemplate why it might be that Federated Farmers do not agree with him. This is supposed to be Mr Ardern\u2019s constituency. Last time I looked at the electoral roll, there was not one farmer in Wigram. But the farmers, who do not live in my electorate and who do not actually vote for me there, because they cannot\u2014there are no farmers in Wigram\u2014are supporting the existing Minister. They do not do so because they are all altruistic or will vote for a Labour-led Government this time or next time, but because they recognise that when I asked them to give me their agenda so I could see what I could do, I never said that I would fix everything. I did not say that; I said that I would give it my best shot, and I did. I took my best shot to a Cabinet that had already made a decision. I say to members that they should try doing that some time. They should try taking to one\u2019s Cabinet colleagues an issue that those colleagues have already decided on, and try to get them to relitigate the issue and see how that goes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EDid I think this would be difficult? Yes, I did. Did I think that I did not want to take on something hard like that? No, I did not. I gave it a shot. Federated Farmers, to their credit, know that I did not promise anything. I said I would try, and I did, and they know that. The fact is that Federated Farmers have expressed their support for the style I am showing, because I am listening to them and I am going out there. I was surprised to be invited to practically every Federated Farmers annual meeting in the country. The meetings are all in May, so it is a bit hard. What I have said is that I will go to these ones this year and the other ones next year\u2014in the 3 years I have this portfolio, I will visit every Federated Farmers AGM in the country. The National Party might like to look up in the library when the last National Minister of Agriculture visited, in one term of office, every single AGM of every Federated Farmers branch in the country and spoke to them. If National members can tell me when that last happened, then we will see. That may be the secret as to why Federated Farmers are saying that they will give me a go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe other thing about it is that I am trying to make sure that city people\u2014and there are more of them than country people\u2014understand the points that Doug Woolerton was making. Here is an industry\u2014including fishing in there, which is not in today\u2019s debate\u2014that collectively earns 65 percent of our entire exchange-rate earnings. We are the country\u2014developed or undeveloped\u2014that is most dependent on our exports and their success in the world. The only global scale industry we have is our primary sector industry. The only globally competitive industry we have is our primary base sector industries, and we depend on those for our economic and social well-being. If we do not have a First World economy, it will be because those industries have not succeeded. If those industries do not succeed, we will not have a First World health system, we will not have a First World education system, and we will not have a First World infrastructure\u2014we will not have a First World anything. So it is critical that those industries succeed, and we should not take that for granted. I say to members that it is no use thinking that because the sun shines, the rain falls, and the wind blows occasionally we will be OK on the night. We will not be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EIf one goes around the world one will understand. I have the privilege of being thrown out of the country occasionally by the Prime Minister to have a look\u2014as I did recently, although I do not like to travel much. The image that most New Zealanders have of, say, French agriculture is of an over-subsidised, bloated, peasant-type industry. But a combination of all of the event centres in New Zealand put together with most of our largest malls would look something like the International Agricultural Show in Paris. The elite agriculture of France is on display\u2014the highest technology, the highest science-based research, the highest productivity, and all the rest of it. It is true that it is more costly than ours, because of all the grain-fed animals, but nevertheless it is highly competent, highly efficient, and very productive. So we have some real competition out there, and that does not include the emerging Eastern European nations and everything else that is coming at us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThe world does not owe us a living in those areas, and one of the things that New Zealanders have to acknowledge is that we are good at it because we have invested a lot of money in scientific research into the development of our pastoral farming, animal husbandry, and all the rest of it. So scientific research and development is crucial. This is a real challenge for New Zealand, and I do not see the ministry as being partisan, because the whole of New Zealand depends on its success. I do not think urban communities fully comprehend this, because in many ways urban communities are now much more separate than they once were from rural communities in terms of the activities of rural communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EAlmost at the bottom of the Western Springs street I used to live in was a dairy farm. Western Springs is now a close inner-city suburb of Auckland. It was on the outskirts of Auckland when I lived there in the 1940s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e36f6b81dea490494fd69da3658ca78\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: There are still six farms in Auckland Central, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b496a1d27c644fb9be65bf381d64e89\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Now it is part of Auckland Central, but then there were dairy farms down the road. People did not think milk came from the supermarket; they saw the dairy farm and orchards, and they went and picked up their fruit in the summertime. So we knew where fruit came from, we knew where agriculture was done, we knew how cows were milked, and we all had uncles, cousins, and aunties who lived on farms and whom we visited in the holidays. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EThose days are well and truly over. Basically, we have to get a synergy between city dwellers and our urban communities, because we are interdependent on each other. The urban communities have to succeed, and so do the rural communities. I think one of the reasons that the Prime Minister has asked me to do the job is to get someone from the city who can actually talk to people from the country and to get some understanding between the two. I am very proud to do this job. I admit readily that I was very comfortable as the Minister for Economic Development and the Minister for Industry and Regional Development. I think I was making a reasonable fist of those portfolios, and because I invented them, in a sense, I was very comfortable there. But the Prime Minister has taken me out of my comfort zone. She said: \u201CI\u2019ve got some news for you. You\u2019re going to be the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Forestry, and the Minister for Biosecurity.\u201D I said: \u201CRun that past me again!\u201D. But anyway, there it is. The challenge is there. It is exciting. It is interesting to deal with new people whom one has not had to relate to before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EI think we can all be proud of what we have achieved in the agricultural and horticultural community. We are world-class, but we have to be creative and innovative. There is a new era of technology here. If one thinks of forestry, one thinks of trees and what one can do to trees. But actually, the new technology is fibre technology. People can grow soya beans in Brazil and make wood products out of those soya beans, because they can rearrange the fibre. Basically, this is the kind of challenge that our industries face at a primary level. We have to start thinking of materials, of technology input, and of high-class, quality products with added value at the top end of the value market, because that is where our future lies. So I look forward to the cooperation of parliamentarians in achieving those objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa52c9dc6839414f802b6c74a0c1042c\u0022\u003EMinistry of Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022afcc9d1908214add93a05458c016355d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afcc9d1908214add93a05458c016355d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E This is an opportunity for the Minister of Education to get up and explain himself to the House. The reason he should explain himself is that no Minister of Education has left a longer trail of policy wreckage than the Hon Steve Maharey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EToday\u2019s announcements about tertiary education policy are about as vacuous as we all expected, but at least they are an attempt to try to clean up his mess. The interesting thing about today\u2019s announcements is that they sound an awful lot like what the Government was saying 6 years ago. But the result of 6 years of strategies, reports, reviews, and bureaucratic expansion has been a total failure by this Minister to achieve any of the objectives that he laid out for himself. Apart from the climate change policy, this is the biggest policy mess I have seen in 20 years of watching public policy in New Zealand as it has unravelled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Minister might want to explain why the cost of running the tertiary education system has gone from about $40 million a year when he took over, to $140 million this last financial year. What does $140 million worth of bureaucrats and paper achieve for the tertiary education system? The answer is nothing that matters. It makes the Minister feel good. It makes him feel like he has achieved something. But what does it do for the students out there? It does virtually nothing. The result of the sum total of several hundred million dollars spent on running this tertiary education system has been the cancellation of a number of qualifications no one was doing. That is what has happened. That is the result of the big strategic decision he made, and he could have done it in a week with half a dozen bureaucrats at a cost of about $140,000 instead of $140 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo I ask this Minister to get up, to apologise to the taxpayers of New Zealand, and to acknowledge that he has wasted the time, energy, and initiative of so many people with a genuine interest in education, by pursuing a dream that could never come to fruition. I have to say that I, among others, felt some relief when Dr Cullen took over the portfolio, although he has been in charge of it for a while now and I am disappointed with what he produced today. He is talking about the plan taking 2 years to implement. The bits of it that make some sense\u2014a common sense to everyone\u2014actually used to be in the system years ago until this Minister came along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI would also like the Minister to tell us what initiatives he will take in education, because\u2014like the rest of the Government\u2014he thinks he knows it all. He thinks the job has been done. He has got nothing new to offer to children in New Zealand. He will oversee some of the initiatives that Trevor Mallard put in place. Some of those initiatives had some merit, such as the literacy and numeracy project. But I want to know what he will do to generate a sense of urgency about what we can do for our young children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI also want him to explain the ridiculous answers he has been giving in the House about the SchoolSmart website. The Government is spending millions putting Tana Umaga on TV to try to get parents interested in education. They get to find out what Tana thinks\u2014and that is fine\u2014but they do not get to find out any useful information about what they can do to make decisions for their children. They do not get the information that is available to the Minister about their child\u2019s school. Is that not a disgrace? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Education runs a website containing performance information about schools\u2014information that is well presented and in context. It contains a range of data painting a complex picture about a school. The Minister can see it, the ministry can see it, and the Education Review Office can see it. They all use that information to make decisions about which schools are at risk. The teachers can see it, the principal can see it, and the advisory services can see it. In short, everyone in education who is a bureaucrat, and who has no particular interest in any particular child, is allowed to see the information about school performance. But parents are not allowed to see it unless they go to the principal\u2019s office and sit there and watch the principal tap it out on the keyboard because, as the Minister said, that is the right context. Apparently, this information about schools is too dangerous for parents to look at from the safety of their own homes. The whole world is going digital, with real-time Internet access to everything. We spend millions teaching our children that that is where the world is going, but we will not make a publicly funded, publicly owned website available to the parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to tell us how much he has spent on assembling that information. It is actually a useful initiative. It is not the answer to everything, but it does bring together a range of performance information about schools in a way that no Government has been able to before. It does not create league tables. The Minister gets up and rants on about how all we are trying to do is \u201Ctear down the social democratic school system\u201D. Was that not a revealing remark? Who says the school system is a social democratic one? That is a Government that believes it now owns, runs, and defines our school system. It is precisely when we get that kind of arrogance in a Minister who is running our school system that parents need access to the objective data about the performance of their child\u2019s school, because, I say to the Minister, not every parent is a social democrat. Not every parent believes that schools are there as an expression of Labour Party values. In fact, almost all parents believe that schools are there to teach our children to become competent citizens based on the values that we have as parents and communities, not the values that the Minister has as a component in a Labour Party machine that is getting more and more tired by the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to explain to the Committee why we should appropriate public money so that it can be spent on a social democratic school system. Because that is the first time I have ever heard a Minister claim New Zealand\u2019s school system as an arm of his or her own ideological views. What a disgrace! It is no wonder he does not want parents to know what is going on. The Minister says that access to this website means there will be league tables and that that is privatisation. What a load of nonsense! The website does not create league tables. It presents information about one school measured against anonymous, similar schools. What could be more harmless than that? It does not compare one school with another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI tell the Minister that what does lead to comparisons of one school with another, which he does not like, is when he releases public information about school performance\u2014and he has to when I ask him to. I can put that information into league tables if I want to. They will be messy, they will be contradictory, and they will present data out of context, but the media have an endless appetite for them. So he is releasing information that achieves exactly what he does not want\u2014that is, league tables\u2014and he is hiding from parents readily accessible, good-quality contextual information that is not about league tables but that informs a parent about his or her school compared with a range of similar schools. So the Minister needs to get with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis is the digital age; we are teaching our children about information technology. The Minister can tell us why that information is all there\u2014all public information, publicly funded\u2014but parents can get it only if they hop in their horse and cart, drive off to school, and make an appointment with the principal. Can members imagine if banks said: \u201CYou can\u2019t look at your bank statement unless you make an appointment with the bank manager.\u201D Does the Minister not know that parents in the comfort of their own homes can have access to all sorts of information on the Internet? Is he not aware of that? Why does he think he can stand in the way of low-cost, high-quality technology that will make that information available? The Minister is trying to hold back the tide. The information exists; it is public information\u2014and parents could access it if he just decided to let them have it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u002263ed5626ec14462d879899596b9824fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263ed5626ec14462d879899596b9824fd\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand is a small nation competing with other nations to find its place in a globalised, market-driven, knowledge-based economy. There is one way, and one way only, that we can find our place in that world, and that is through the initiative and hard work of our people. It is through the ability of our people to read, to write, to do maths and science, and to use technology\u2014not 80 percent of our people, not some of our people, but all of them. Yet, the Education Review Office has reported to the Government that up to 20 percent of New Zealand children\u2014that is, 153,000 children, in the review office\u2019s words, are not experiencing success at school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI invite the Minister to take a call and explain to the Committee whether he accepts that 20 percent figure. Does he have confidence in the Education Review Office, or does he not? I invite the Minister not to fudge around the issue. I do not want to know how many children are in reading recovery; all I want to know is whether he accepts what the Education Review Office has reported to him\u2014that up to 20 percent of New Zealand children are not experiencing success at school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI invite the Minister also to explain to us how it can be that a physics teacher with two degrees, including a masters degree in physics, and with a recognised English teacher-training qualification, is being told he cannot teach in New Zealand. As a former school principal, I know how hard it is to staff a school\u2014how difficult it is, particularly in subjects like physics, to find teachers who, first, know their subject, know it backwards, and have a passion for it that they can share with youngsters, and, second, can actually communicate in the language of instruction. But Morrinsville College has found one. So why has the college found that the bureaucracy has said: \u201COh, we don\u0027t recognise that training programme.\u201D? Those bureaucrats have probably never employed a teacher, or sat\u2014as many principals do\u2014and agonised and worried about who is the best person for the job, the person who is best able to teach those youngsters what they need to know in order to take their place in the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe losers are the young men and women who are suddenly, in the middle of this year, going to be without an outstanding schoolteacher. I invite the Minister to take a call and explain how that can be. In fact, I will go further. I invite the Minister also to tell this Committee why the Government does not have confidence in the judgment of principals. Why does this Government seems unable to accept the judgment of a school principal that a particular teacher, who is well qualified with two university degrees and a recognised teacher-training qualification, will not be able to teach in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI invite the Minister to consider the reality of what it means to schools, when they attract good teachers from overseas in the expectation that those teachers will earn, maybe, $50,000, only to find that a bureaucratic decision has been made that those teachers will be paid $26,000. A man has uprooted his family and his children and has come to New Zealand to start a career, but we have insulted that man\u2014a man with a masters degree in physics\u2014by telling him that we will pay him only $26,000 a year. I ask the Minister to explain to this Committee, and to explain to the young men and women of Morrinsville College, why they are likely to lose their science teacher, their physics teacher. Why are they likely to lose a great teacher?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002284de4e6076b047b5ac39b82a7f8e95c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284de4e6076b047b5ac39b82a7f8e95c7\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E That seems to be the contribution from the National Party. I will begin with Mr Peachey\u2019s contribution, because it is good to see him. The other day we shared a platform together at Rangitoto College, which, of course, was Mr Peachey\u2019s school. I had not been there before, and I thought it was a fantastic school. I say to the member that we might disagree on politics in here but that school is a credit to him, even apart from the physical presence of the island, and so on. The pupils and teachers I met in getting around the school certainly stood him well, and I thought I should pass on to him my observations from that day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe member touched on two questions. Let me start with the case of the physics teacher. As the member will know, of course, that is a New Zealand Teachers Council registration issue, not a New Zealand Qualifications Authority issue. It is a matter of whether we can register the particular teacher, and I certainly take a personal interest in those kinds of issues. I hope that will help to set the member\u2019s mind at rest a little. I too am concerned, when we are trying to recruit a large number of teachers over the next few years because of changes in policy. We will need more teachers in front of kids throughout the country, and when we are trying to emphasise areas like science we certainly want well-qualified teachers\u2014and this person seems to be one. So I have asked for a particular look at that teacher. The issue is a Teachers Council registration issue, and I think that is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI understand the argument being made in relation to the question of trusting the judgment of the school, but the member must think about what it would be like if the situation were transposed. We are talking about an issue of professional status. It would be a little like saying: \u201CWhy don\u2019t we trust local city doctors to hire a doctor?\u201D. We would not do that; the Medical Council of New Zealand has to register the doctor. We would make the same argument with engineers, psychologists, or whatever. I am totally committed to the professionalisation of teachers. That means that there needs to be a professional body that registers them, and that is what we will try to do. I think the member makes a good point, but if we can support each other through the process of trying to make sure that that person can be registered, we can probably have him back in that school, and I hope we can do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EIn relation to the 20 percent figure, the Education Review Office has tried to clarify the matter. It was raised in the context of a select committee discussion. What the office has tried to argue is that, like most countries, we share\u2014and I do not like this word\u2014the notion of \u201Ctail\u201D, which the underachieving group that we are all concerned about. The office estimates that across different subjects, maths, English, and so on, there are about 20 percent of young New Zealanders spread across our schools\u2014which is the interesting part of our debate here in New Zealand\u2014who are, in one subject or another, probably not doing as well as they should be. They are not illiterate, as originally I heard the member suggest in the House, but they are in a situation where they are not really up to where they ought to be for their age group. That is a big challenge for us, because we are not talking about a particular section of the community lumped into one area of the country; we are talking about a situation where we seem to have that underachievement across our schools, and I think it is right that we identify that. I think it is right that we do something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI do not accept that that is an issue where we should start to say to ourselves that it is somehow to be explained as a revelation. It has always been the case, of course, that we have had young people in our schools who are not achieving to the level they ought to for their age group. The question is: what do we do about it? And that is what I am committed to. That is why I think it is good that the Education Review Office has raised this debate, and that is why it is good that we are talking to schools and asking them what they are doing about underachievement\u2014just as we would ask them about gifted children, and so on. So that is what I understand them to mean. It is not a case of 20 percent\u2014as one group we can point out\u2014who are illiterate, innumerate, and unable to do x, y and z. Young people are experiencing underachievement in different subjects. We need to do something about it to fix the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003ELet me go back to Mr English for a moment. It is always interesting to start a debate with somebody who, on the whole, is basically angry deep down. He will have to deal with that in any way he wants to as time goes by. He is still a young man; he has a chance to do that. It is interesting to listen to Mr English get up and accuse everybody else of failure, when this is a man who ran the health system in the 1990s and was a Minister of Finance in the National Government during a time of recession and crippling performance in our economy. This is a man who was the education person in the National Party when that party was about as popular as a pork chop in a synagogue. That was about the state of things\u2014I am sure Mr Peachey would agree. Mr English was extraordinarily unpopular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219a9b051d33547cfa4f9fcbcadf5c7fe\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How did he go as a leader?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7490e1062d44f49c17618ddf09cd79\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I will come back to the leadership in a moment. I know that he has been going around telling people what will happen in the National Party. [Interruption] I am starting on him because he started on me, so I am replying to that. He has been going around talking about education and saying that he will not change National Party policy. This means that bulk funding and performance pay are still on the website as National Party policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI come back to the leadership issue, as my colleague over here prompts me. Mr English is a man who wants to talk about failure. He was the leader of the National Party but he is not now. I call that failure. He asked me to talk about the tertiary education sector, and I list the following things. Will National Party members change the Gateway programme? It is a staggering success, and we introduced it. Will they change the Modern Apprenticeships programme? I introduced that, and it is staggering success. They will not change that, either. Will they change the industry training policy? It is a staggering success. No, they will not change that, either. Will they change the Performance-based Research Fund? We introduced that. Will they change it? No, they will not change that, either. Will they take out the centres of research excellence? We introduced those. No, they will not change those, either. Will they change the regulation of student fees? No, they will not change that, either. They say they will let it all go, but they will not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWill National members change the loan scheme that we have put in place? No, they will not change that. They will even leave the interest-free loans alone. Will they carry on with allowances? We made changes to them. Will they change them? No, they will not change them, either. Will they change the amalgamation of colleges of education with universities? No, they will not change that, either. Will they change the charters and profiles we have put in place? No, they will not change that, either. Will they change the emphasis on quality? Will they change the emphasis that comes through from the Tertiary Education Commission to have a strategic investment? No, they will not. All of these things have been put in place, and we are now on to the next bit. I say to the member that I will put my record next to his record of failure any day of the week. His record is one of failure and mine is one of success. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI move on to schools. The member did not talk much about schools. He spent most of his time on one very, very small amount of policy called SchoolSmart, but he did not talk much at all about schools apart from that. I notice that he did not make his routine attack on the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA). I know that Mr English does not support NCEA. He is obviously opposed to standards-based assessment. If he is not opposed to it, then he spent the whole summer on it, after saying he would leave the issue alone. One person wrote to me and stated that Mr English has put out 13 different releases after saying he was going to leave the issue alone over summer. NCEA performed very well. Karen Sewell, the acting chief executive of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, is a wonderful person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0b3f2a79914763a4f92815d7a8e4da\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: So why are you doing a review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb6a0805cc264a04be99e034b910295c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: We are doing a review because we promised to do one. For those at home, I point out that Mr English is interjecting about why we should do a review. We promised to improve the NCEA. We promised to make sure it is something that all New Zealanders can rely on\u2014that it is a blue-chip system of assessment. I know that Mr English disagrees with this and is against standards-based assessment, but we agree with it. We think that this year the NCEA did a good job. We think the teachers worked extraordinarily hard. We know that Mr McCully and Mr English have consistently undermined the professional standing of Karen Sewell, but we happen to think she did a great job. We respect what she has done over the summer period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWe have laid a good foundation for NCEA and scholarship. They are doing well, and now we will review them and carry on reviewing them until they are absolutely perfect. We will have the best assessment system this country has ever seen because that is what our kids deserve, that is what our parents want, that is what our employers need, and that is what we are going to have. I will not allow someone who disagrees with standards-based assessment to get in the way of it by this constant whingeing and carping. Mr English is the only critic of NCEA that I can find left in the country. Everybody else is now committed to make sure this thing works. I think the National Party should take Mr English aside and say to him: \u201CFor goodness\u2019 sake, if you have a good idea, let\u2019s hear it, but if you haven\u2019t, let us get on and make sure this thing works.\u201D. That is where I think we are at with that kind of debate. Apart from that, I did not see anything else raised by Mr English. This leads me back to saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c817f25850fb40aaa88609e3a66e9366\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What about SchoolSmart?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ace65ebaf5e49739d373a281f168ab0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I have touched on SchoolSmart and I have given all the answers I am that I am going to, which is that SchoolSmart is accessible to parents. They just go along to the school and they can talk about it, or schools themselves can make it available to parents. I know that Mr English wants to do this in a different way, but that is the way schools want it done, that is the way I believe it should be done, and that is the way parents want it done. I have consulted the New Zealand School Trustees Association, and it wants it done exactly that way. We are all happy but the lone critic is not. So the lone critic can carry on being the lone critic. As long as he is the education spokesperson for the National Party, he will be one of the many reasons why the National Party will never return to Government. No one wants someone who is as isolated as he is in the education debate trying to lead that kind of debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI will close by saying that I inherited from Trevor Mallard an outstanding education portfolio. Over the last little while I have travelled, and I have talked to a large number of people in schools and to virtually every stakeholder group right across the country. I am going to many conferences at the present time, and I am talking to groups of people who are absolutely committed to being part of a world-class education system. That is what I am going to emphasise for the next 3 years. We have a fantastic system, and we intend to make it even better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b54d97af8c94e3686a98d8f39e72b15\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab754205b9244ef39683f03615b253c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab754205b9244ef39683f03615b253c1\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in respect of the appropriation for the New Zealand Police. It is with some degree of frustration that I note the level of confidence has continued to fall in respect of the police, especially after the assertions made by the Minister of Police that she would work tirelessly to pull confidence in the organisation back up. It is an organisation in which I worked for many years, and I still hold a great deal of regard for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI certainly wish my two wing mates from previous years, Howard Broad and Rob Pope, the warmest congratulations on their new positions as commissioner and deputy commissioner respectively. I was pleased to be able to write to tell them that at least the decision in respect of their appointments was one that I agreed with the Minister on more than 100 percent. I believe that with the background those two men have, particularly as former detectives, they will focus intently on raising the public level of confidence in the police and on the police\u2019s ability to respond and react, to prevent crime, investigate crime in a timely manner, and protect life and property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EIt is a worry that although reported crime may be down overall, the most prominent reason for the lessening in reported crime is the level of confidence that New Zealanders have in the ability of the police to investigate reported crime with any hope of success. It is a shame that within the last couple of years we have seen such a large number of high-profile incidents where the police have been hampered, for one reason or another, from investigating them in a timely manner. There were problems around the communications centre, which we hope have now been fixed or are on the road to being fixed. The truth is, of course, that the police were asking for further resources for the communications centre for some time before they ever saw any progress in relation to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EPeople have a perception about crime. When I campaigned at the last election, it was a shame to knock on doors on a sunny Saturday afternoon and hear pensioners unlock three or four locks before they could open the door to speak to me. They were trapped inside their homes by fear. I honestly believe they do not need to be in fear. I think, as many New Zealanders do, that the media have some part to play in response to that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI look forward to seeing the Government come through with its 1,250 new police. I do note with some degree of humour that during the campaign, when we were talking about increasing police numbers, we were told quite emphatically by the then Minister of Police and by local members of Parliament there was no need to increase numbers and the police were completely resourced along the lines they needed to be. But after the pre-election pledges made by the National Party and by New Zealand First, the Government came up with a figure of 250 more community police. Community police definitely have their role, especially in building confidence in the police, but it was not really until after the election and the confidence and supply agreement was made that 1,000 new police were added to the figure of 250. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EEven then, there seemed to be some conflict over the pages of the songbook various members of the Government were singing from, because the member Ron Mark told us there were to be 1,000 new front-line police, and the Minister of Police told staff at the Nelson Police Station the figure would be 1,000 new police, including non-sworn as well as sworn officers. She repeated that statement in the House a few days later, but about a week after that it was conceded there would be 1,000 front-line police plus support staff. As a former police officer I am pleased to see that occur, because I believe that the number of front-line staff has been reduced by attrition over time and the police\u2019s ability to respond to incidents has been marginalised, even in my own area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWhen I was a police officer working in the Wanganui electorate, the Wanganui Police Station had a sergeant and five officers working 24 hours a day on successive shifts. What happened, of course, was that the number was reduced by attrition. Now we have ended up with the situation where there is a sergeant and two officers working on some days, and I wonder how on earth they can respond\u2014especially at a time when ambulance officers and firefighters, who are the emergency service back-ups for the police in various situations, are not available either because their numbers have been reduced by attrition, as well. In Wanganui City we have lost six police officers and we look forward to seeing them replaced in due course, if it happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00220e660f0fa174474ebec6f89e481d9470\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e660f0fa174474ebec6f89e481d9470\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Can I thank the member for Whanganui for his contribution in the financial review of Vote Police, and\u2014as he knows\u2014I have already congratulated the new Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad. I was interested to learn that the member was in the same wing as both Rob Pope and Howard Broad, and certainly I can be assured of his support for both those two men in their future roles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI begin by thanking the retired Commissioner of Police Rob Robinson, who picked up the role at a very difficult time, soon after we became the Government, when he needed to address a number of issues. In particular, issues of a historic nature had arisen, and I will not say any more about those at this point, but there were also a number of issues arising from the Martin review of the late 1990s, which saw police resources being removed as the police were asked to pay for the INCIS mistake of the previous National Government. I know that Chester Borrows would have been at the sharp end of those cuts in police numbers back in the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI want to say how pleased I am to have the new Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad, in place. I think he will make a very fine commissioner. He has a background of 30 years of policing, including community policing, and of being the district commander in Auckland, where he has had a lot of experience in terms of front-line policing, but also his very reasoned approach to strategy and policy will, I think, be very good going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ERob Pope also has 30 years of experience with the police. I assume that Chester Borrows, if he had stayed in the force, would have had 30 years of experience now, as well. So the member brings to this House those years that he has had in the force, and I was pleased to see today that he was agreeing with comments I was making. Doing that probably got him into trouble with his front bench, but I believe he will perform in an honest manner in this House with the knowledge of policing he has. But I think that Rob Pope, who has 30 years\u2019 experience of policing, has spent many years in the Criminal Investigation Bureau, and who is now responsible for operational matters, will be a good fit with our new commissioner, as will Lyn Provost, who has been reappointed. Lyn Provost\u2019s responsibilities are in the area of resources. I would also like to put on record my thanks to acting commissioner Steve Long, who retires on 7 April, for a very fine police career and for carrying us through the last few months after Rob Robinson retired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe member expressed a little sorrow, I think, that I have not managed to bring police confidence back up to high levels in the 5 months I have been in the job. I assure the member that I am working very hard on that matter. I am spending my time out on the front line, working with police\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a4e3185cd614f82bf68aa722601ded9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: And loving it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaff22675143410fb011fe4603dac2d6\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and loving it\u2014and the main thing the police do need is the support and, at times, the accolades they deserve for the job they do on behalf of New Zealanders, day and night. One of the things that really gets to them is to hear only the whingeing and moaning about what they do. They ask where the thanks and the gratitude are for a job most of us would not want to do, because it is a difficult and hard job. I want to put on record my thanks for the work the New Zealand Police do. We have one of the finest police forces in the world. We are the envy of many countries because of the integrity of our police and because we are a country that is pretty much free of corruption within our police\u2014something that even across the Tasman they sometimes have struggled with. So I want to encourage our police. I want to help in terms of the confidence that they need to engender in the public and I think they are well on the way to doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to work with New Zealand First in relation to the 1,000 extra sworn police, and I need to say to the member for Whanganui that there was no dispute between New Zealand First and the Government around the numbers of new police. What we had to work out was what would support 1,000 sworn police, because\u2014as the member will know\u2014when we bring in extra police but we do not back them up with non-sworn police, we put huge pressure on those on the front line. If we do not give them cars, accommodation, or even handcuffs, we put huge pressure on the police to be able to perform. One of the big problems in the early 1990s, when John Banks became the Minister of Police, was that he brought in extra police all right, but none of the resources to go with the police to enable them to carry out their role\u2014and the police lived with that situation for years, trying to overcome that shortfall in financing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo I am pleased to say that, through the good work of New Zealand First members, who have worked with the Government in a very constructive manner, we will have 1,000 more sworn police in New Zealand, plus 250 non-sworn police to back them up, and I can assure the member that that will happen. That promise was made; that promise will be undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIn conclusion I say that I am very pleased with the work of the New Zealand Police, but they can always do better. They can always do better, and they want to do better. Of course, we would want to have as little crime as possible, but what really concerns me when I look at crime statistics is that the big increase in violent crime is coming from family violence\u2014domestic violence. That is an issue for all of us to face. Judge Boshier said that this is a scourge of our society that requires the response of the whole community. It does not require a police officer outside the door of every home; it requires the collective responsibility of New Zealanders. This is a crime that we do not have to have. It is happening in our homes and to our families, and there needs to be a greater response from all of us. I support the work of the police. They are doing very good work with other agencies in addressing family violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI do not have time now to go through all the work that is being done in an area like Counties-Manukau, but the police are really working hard there, knowing that family violence is one of the biggest issues they have in terms of reported crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo I thank the member for his contribution, and I am very pleased with the work the Law and Order Committee did in terms of its financial review of Vote Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c1c6d99a02d4a8fb19caac979ff1ce3\u0022\u003EMinistry of Economic Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00220e4a5aac11454b0684f2283a0bb0f37c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e4a5aac11454b0684f2283a0bb0f37c\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I shall take a call on the Ministry of Economic Development, but in relation to one specific aspect of the ministry\u2019s wide-ranging interests and that is to do with energy. Although the Finance and Expenditure Committee reported on the Ministry of Economic Development\u2014in fact I thought it was the Commerce Committee, but I stand corrected on that if that is the case\u2014one of the things that the Commerce Committee also covered was a review of the various State-owned enterprises. It is very important to draw to the House\u2019s attention some very serious situations that have arisen around the upgrading of the transmission grid in this country. I refer particularly to the 400-kilovolt line that was planned originally by Transpower between Whakamara and \u014Ct\u0101huhu. As members will be aware, that line was announced by Transpower last year. Subsequently, in about April of last year the then Minister of Energy, the Hon Trevor Mallard, who is the Minister now in the chair, asked the Electricity Commission to look again at what Transpower was proposing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI draw to the attention of the Committee the exchange between myself and the Chairman of the Electricity Commission, Roy Hemmingway, about the 400-kilovolt line when he came along to the Commerce Committee. I started off by asking him whether he felt that the responsibilities between himself, on the one hand, and Transpower, on the other, were sufficiently defined, because Transpower had said that it was conscious there was an overlap and it was worried about that. Roy Hemmingway replied\u2014and I want to read these remarks into the Hansard as I think they are very important\u2014\u201CI think they are. We have a set of rules which defines the relationship. We\u201D\u2014that is, the commission\u2014\u201Chave a responsibility in respect of approving grid upgrades, to ensure that they are the least-cost approach to the job. That\u2019s what we are required to do.\u201D I then responded to him by saying that I was concerned that in April 2005 the Minister of Energy asked the commission to consult members of the public about the transmission upgrade, whereas in the normal course of things, was it not Transpower\u2019s responsibility to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ERoy Hemmingway\u2019s response was as follows: \u201CYes, I do believe that it was Transpower\u2019s responsibility to fully develop alternatives to its own proposals, to have those costed, and to have consulted the public on them. They didn\u2019t do that.\u201D That was a very important comment, because it suggested that Transpower was not following through on its obligations. In respect of whether Transpower was following through on its obligations his response was: \u201CWell, they didn\u2019t with respect to the 400-kilovolt line from Whakamaru to \u014Ct\u0101huhu.\u201D I must say that I was stunned with those responses. It is the first time since I have been at Parliament that we have had the head of the Electricity Commission make such damning comments about one of our largest State-owned enterprises\u2014a State-owned enterprise, I might say, that has no fewer than 156 staff who are paid more than $100,000, 19 staff who are paid more than $200,000, and eight staff who are paid more than $330,000 a year. I have chosen that figure, because that is more than the Prime Minister is paid. Yet the Electricity Commission, through its chair, is saying that Transpower failed to do its job correctly, and that is a very, very serious situation that has arisen. Therefore, we are now reliant on the Electricity Commission getting it right and getting it right quickly, because it is quite clear from the evidence presented to us that that 400-kilovolt line needs to be built and functioning no later than 2010, which is now only about 4 years away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI might add that if United Future had its way we would completely change the whole thrust of Transpower. We would give it a very simple objective in life, and that would be to get electricity from A to B at the lowest possible cost to the consumer over time. We would have it do that by way of borrowing funds over a 30 or 40 year period, because the grid actually lasts for a period of 30 to 40 years, and therefore it is sensible to take the cost right over the whole period of time to keep that cost as low as possible to electricity consumers. It gets even worse in that the Commerce Commission has also, as one knows, been dabbling with taking price control over Transpower. We have some real problems with that State-owned enterprise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022550c3a680dff4739a79e68a79e3829d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022550c3a680dff4739a79e68a79e3829d2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E For reasons that I am happy to explain to the member later and that have to do with State-owned enterprise energy portfolios, which I have now delegated to the Hon Mark Burton, it would be inappropriate for me to comment to the Committee on the matters that he has raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f06253ca1152483fa059d64155441114\u0022\u003EMinistry of Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002253962a48f7da407eb771bfd6af291e82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253962a48f7da407eb771bfd6af291e82\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E For the benefit of those who are tuning in to this debate, I will explain that we are looking at the financial performance of the Ministry of Health. This debate gives Parliament an opportunity to review the performance of not only the Government but also the ministry in the last 12 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EOver the last few weeks in Parliament, the National Party has demonstrated some of the incredible pressures being borne by the public health system in New Zealand and that despite $4 billion of extra money, the services in our hospitals are still wanting. We have demonstrated, through answers to written questions, that fewer New Zealanders are receiving elective surgery today than there were 5 years ago, and that fewer New Zealanders are receiving surgery, full stop, than there were 5 years ago. This country should not be proud of that state of affairs. After 6 years of the stewardship of Annette King as the Minister of Health, $4 billion of extra public funding, and huge pay increases for people who deserve them, what do we have? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EAfter 6 years of Annette King as the Minister of Health and an extra $4 billion in funding, what does her colleague the current Minister, the Hon Pete Hodgson, say about her performance as Minister of Health, with a mark out of 10? Five-and-a-half. What did Annette King say to Pete Hodgson, when he rated her performance in the health portfolio as being five-and-a half out of 10? I have seen the Minister\u2019s face every time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c22a790c24844f9adb9726a75f24cbe\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: What was the raw mark before scaling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7be6681334d495680444fafda114bd4\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question. What do New Zealanders receive from that $4 billion of extra money? Fewer elective surgeries, and fewer surgeries altogether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe will also hear today from other members of the National Party health team what the district health boards are saying about that. I will be interested in the comments of the Minister in the chair, Pete Hodgson, about the sort of reception he receives in the boardrooms of district health boards in New Zealand, because I can tell him about what we hear as we go around the district health boards. District health board after district health board is saying that a person has to be more sick today than he or she had to be 5 years ago in order to get an operation. District health board after district health board is saying that despite $4 billion of extra money, in order for people to get an operation today they have to be more sick than they had to be 5 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister in the chair to take a call and explain how it can be that after all that money, fewer elective procedures and fewer surgeries are being carried out. Fewer individuals are receiving surgery overall than received it 5 years ago. We will get a line about out-patient operations, and all that stuff. I think the Minister will be surprised to hear how few of those he can add to the total when the figures come along in July 2006. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe will also hear from the National Party health team about how the Government has been underfunding the investment in pharmaceuticals in this country in the last 4 or 5 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022393b3bfc67f14bdb9c88f639bc8100a6\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a laugh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5b589f9f3224e9baf0a9989613a4145\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Annette King says that is a laugh. Well, Pete Hodgson has rated pharmaceutical policy under that Minister at 5\u00BD out of 10\u2014that is what he said. That is how highly the Minister in the chair rates Annette King\u2019s performance as former Minister of Health. We will hear from Dr Jackie Blue. She will talk about the fact that per head of population, the funding spent on pharmaceuticals in this country, after inflation, has dropped in every one of the last 4 years. That is why Annette King receives a 5\u00BD from Pete Hodgson on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe will hear from Jonathan Coleman, who humiliated Mr Hodgson in the House over the cardiac waiting list at Auckland City Hospital. Mr Hodgson got up and said people were actually getting angioplasties done by Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board. Then, the next day, he came back and said angioplasties were not done by Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe will hear from Jo Goodhew about the parlous state of workforce training in this country, and about the fact that there simply are not enough doctors and nurses. She will talk about the fact that this Government is wasting taxpayers\u2019 money by sending staff from 10 district health boards to London.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3909e3214c145918830e2630016e144\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3909e3214c145918830e2630016e144\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I rise to speak to the 2004-05 financial reviews, and in particular the Ministry of Health financial review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe area of health that New Zealand First wants to see progressed is children\u2019s health. We know that health outcomes are a defining feature of our First World status and that any decline affects our quality of life. New Zealand First believes in, and will actively work towards, the objective of having free health-care for all under-6-year-olds. In 1997 this initiative was implemented, but with escalating costs the initiative was gradually whittled away, basically to the detriment of our children. Today\u2019s primary health organisations have a policy of part charges for medical visits and prescriptions for children, but sometimes even these charges are too high for parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely essential that we provide our very youngest citizens with certainty about health care, and ensure timely access to all health-care services. We believe that an emphasis on preventive measures at an early age ensures that later problems, like hearing problems and sight problems, that eventuate and reduce educational achievement do not go undetected, and of course an increased amount of investment is required at this later stage. I recently read a report that states that a 1 percent increase in overall literacy results in a 1.8 percent increase in GDP. When we relate this to educational achievement\u2014and health is usually a factor in this\u2014we see that these figures cannot be ignored. We say that investment in this area will definitely produce very worthwhile results for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ELast year Minister King spoke of many advances that were to be made in the area of oral health for primary school children. Indications were given in this House that a number of positive issues relating to oral health-care were to be worked on and fixed. This was repeated again prior to the election. To date, unfortunately, I have heard of very little action, and the questions remain around oral health-care. I have heard of some advances, to be fair, but there is still quite a lot that needs to be done in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe facilities and services review was carried out on school dental services, and the final report commenting on this is not easy to find on the Ministry of Health website\u2014if it is even there. We all know that dental decay is on the increase, and although each district health board has its own oral health service\u2014which was repeated in a written answer I received from the Minister\u2014we know that adequate resourcing for this essential service is absolutely paramount. The possibility of having local super-clinics and the increasing reliance on mobile clinics appears to be the best way of managing this scarce resource that is absolutely essential for the well-being of our nation\u2019s children. Perhaps sharing resources between district health boards in order to provide an effective service and ensure that children can actually be seen within a specified time frame is one of the changes that must be managed in order for this service to survive and flourish\u2014because we do want to see it flourish. Good oral health is absolutely essential for the well-being and overall health of every child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe final area of health care in which we are looking for action is the Government\u2019s intentions regarding the changes to maternity services. The latest addition to the voices calling for change is the Health and Disability Commissioner, who has reported on another avoidable death. The public has a right to know as soon as possible exactly what the Minister intends to do to improve the current system. The proposed alternative that we have heard about\u2014the setting up of a database of maternal and prenatal deaths\u2014provides nothing in the way of reassurance for pregnant women or even for those contemplating pregnancy. I say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Pete Hodgson, that it is obvious to all New Zealanders that changes are necessary to ensure that women have access to the best possible medical care while they are pregnant, and when giving birth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u002283f96588e4d44be5b4ab461ea2d2ce37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f96588e4d44be5b4ab461ea2d2ce37\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E We hear that people are becoming sicker, kids are becoming fatter, diabetes is on the rise, and obesity is at epidemic levels. We also hear the Minister in the chair, the Hon Pete Hodgson, has given his ministry a rating of 5\u00BD out of 10, and we hear that $4 billion more than previously has been spent on health over the term of the Labour Government. I want the Minister to get up and take a call to answer one question: where has all the money gone? What has the $4 billion been spent on? What do we have to show for it? I can say now there is nothing to show for it. We are becoming sicker as a country, and it is becoming harder to get an operation than previously. The health service is absolutely decaying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThere is one place where we can say the health money is going. It is going into bureaucracy. There are 12,000 hospital beds in New Zealand, and there are 12,000 bureaucrats to fill them. That is just outrageous, but it is absolutely true. I was stunned when I heard that statistic. When I came into this Parliament, I had heard that Mr Hodgson was a competent Minister. I had heard that he would do good things in health. Then I picked up my copy of New Zealand Doctor and I saw that he rates himself as being only 5\u00BD out of 10. He says he does not feel confident in the health portfolio, and he does not even feel that he can get to grips with the ministry. Frankly, if that is how the Minister feels about health in this country and about the health service, what do the public think? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI want the Minister in the chair to take a call to admit that, and to explain why, despite the lies that Labour tells the people of New Zealand, we do not have a health service in this country that is free at the point of delivery. The Minister has to get up and admit to that. People are falling through the cracks of the health service. The fact is that people in this country need to have private health insurance. We have heard that time and time again. If someone goes to a hospital anywhere in New Zealand to have a cataract fixed, a joint replaced, or an ear, nose, or throat operation, he or she will not get it. I was talking to an orthopaedic surgeon on Friday. He said North Shore Hospital does not have waiting lists. Why is that? It is because the hospital will not let anybody on to them. That is the actual truth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EWe have heard time and time again that if people do get on to a waiting list, they have to be sicker than ever before. All the district health boards, including Capital and Coast District Health Board, are saying that. We had the board\u2019s surgical services manager, poor lady, in front of us at the Health Committee last week. She went through a range of specialties, under questioning, in which one has to be sicker than ever before in order to get an operation\u2014ear, nose, and throat surgery, orthopaedics, gynaecology, and eye operations. I asked her whether one had to be sicker than ever before in order to get an operation in New Zealand, and she said yes, one does. That was a confession that the health service is failing New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister, Pete Hodgson, what he will do about that. Frankly, we see no evidence that under Labour the health system is providing the services people need. Would any member want to be a heart surgery patient in Auckland? Four years ago there were 800 heart operations done in Auckland; this year there will be 400. Frankly, the message is that one has to be sicker than ever before in order to be operated on. The Minister has to tell us where all the money has gone. The Minister owes the people an explanation of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EPeople come to my constituency office every day and talk about the operations they cannot have done under the Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254451fd1da5b46d3ae5cd591142f85af\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226638bf1806e5498282e3124e0aa4a64b\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Look, the situation is just appalling. I had a letter the other day from a World War II veteran who had served his country. He needs to have a cataract operation and cannot get it. That man has paid taxes all his life, and people are having a whip-round at the RSA so that he can have his operation. Frankly, I think that is disgusting. Another constituent, a lady, has a broken thumb. The Accident Compensation Corporation will not cover her surgery costs, and North Shore Hospital will not even see her, so that lady can no longer use her hand. She is left in limbo because she cannot afford to have private insurance cover. That lady used to be a Labour voter, and she tells me she will never vote for Labour again. That is the case with a growing number of people out there. Labour has sold its voters the big lie that the health service is free at the point of delivery. We know that that is not the case. The Minister knows it as well, and Labour members know it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe Labour MPs must be ashamed at what they have done to the health service. They must be ashamed that people in this country cannot get operations. Under this Government, operations that people need will not be done. That is a failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00225fe9e535aac8482d8a3bc3b1dc179acc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fe9e535aac8482d8a3bc3b1dc179acc\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is the responsibility of Governments to strive to provide the best health care for their citizens. Sadly, I say that this Labour Government is failing its citizens. I add, too, how disappointed and stunned I am at the poor performance of the Minister, Pete Hodgson. But my sadness is balanced by the fact that I am part of a wonderful health team: the marvellous Hon Tony Ryall\u2014what a great leader\u2014Dr Jonathan Coleman, and Jo Goodhew. What a great team I am with! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe House has heard from some of my colleagues already, and will hear from Jo Goodhew, about the deficiencies in the health system. But the real scandal is in pharmaceuticals, and in the 5\u00BD out of 10 performance of Pharmac. That is really bad. Pharmaceuticals and prescription medicines play a vital role in the prevention, amelioration, and treatment of disease and disability, and are an essential tool for improving health outcomes for New Zealanders. With Vote Health now at almost a massive $10 billion, one would expect that the spend on pharmaceuticals would have increased proportionately over the last 3 to 4 years. My colleagues will be aghast\u2014absolutely shocked\u2014when I say that that has not been the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227700ebe627c748bcb4e3ffdcd77f5b78\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: No! What\u2019s happened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ce2cd81437403cb5f257e0529c70cb\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell the member. Rather than the per capita pharmaceutical spend increasing, it has flatlined. I ask my colleagues to look at the graph I am holding up. Spending has flatlined. The graph is like an ECG of a cardiac arrest; spending is as dead as a dodo after 1, 2, 3, 4 years\u2014dreadful. Even Pharmac admitted during a recent Health Committee hearing that population funding for pharmaceuticals has not kept pace with inflation. At the same committee hearing Pharmac said that New Zealanders had access to more drugs than Australians. That claim was repeated\u2014parroted\u2014by Mr Hodgson in the House, but it did not make sense to me because, as members have just seen from the flatlining graph, spending has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8b3e4f55b76410bb2c2e066c5fccabc\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Show it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022354fc5e094d34fe8847c2acdb02cd595\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE\u003C/span\u003E: I will show the member. Spending has flatlined. It is as dead as a dodo\u2014nothing has happened there over the last 4 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003ESo what was Pharmac\u2019s claim all about? It took the research medicines industry to expose the truth. It found that Pharmac\u2019s data contained numerous omissions and errors and, astonishingly, included items that were not medicines. My colleagues will be interested to know that Pharmac counted items such as condoms and bandages as medicines. But that outrageous lie was exposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EAustralians have more access to medicines. For example, they have extra medicines for the treatment of Alzheimer\u2019s disease. They have five new medicines to treat HIV, four new biological medicines, five new cancer treatments, and new medicines for heart failure treatment. Organ transplant recipients have new medicines, and new medicines are available for the treatment of atopic dermatitis. New Zealanders are being short-changed not just by the number of medicines available but also by the fact that what is available is more restricted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EBut there is more. Proud of its lack of spending over the years on pharmaceuticals, Pharmac went even further and underspent its budget by $25 million in the financial year ending 2002, by $3 million in 2003, and by $8 million in 2004. Clearly embarrassed by its legacy of underspending, it underspent by only half a million dollars in the year ending 2005. Pharmac has its priorities all wrong. Access to medicines will improve the health of New Zealanders. Pharmac\u2019s miserly attitude does a huge disservice to all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EBefore I conclude I want to ask the Minister of Health two questions, and I hope he takes a call and answers them. The first concerns Herceptin funding. Will the Minister ensure that district health boards have enough money in their cancer budgets to agree to fund Herceptin when they are asked to do so? The second question concerns women who have to start Herceptin now and cannot wait until later in the year when it might be approved, and who are prepared to look at paying for the drug\u2014they are struggling, raising mortgages, and fund-raising; $70,000 is a lot of money but some are getting there. Will the Minister allow them to have the drug administered in a public hospital, which will save them up to almost $50,000? The basic cost of Herceptin is $70,000, and for women to have the drug administered and to be monitored in a private hospital can cost anything up to $30,000 or $40,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u00226f6b0f4a047742d4aba50df7e7cf3e5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f6b0f4a047742d4aba50df7e7cf3e5b\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E What exactly is the state of the health system? We have heard that it got 5\u00BD out of 10. What is the level of confidence in the new Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e174ee56ee4cc3b415ddf9fae50796\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Good question. What\u2019s the answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022530b9235003746a99aa32e11eb841b3a\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can tell the member. As a former health professional I have been talking to other health professionals, and they are very, very concerned. They have diminishing confidence in the new Minister of Health. They have described what is going on as \u201Cshifting the deckchairs on the Titanic\u201D. Why is that? I have posed a question to a number of groups in my electorate when talking about health. I have asked them whether, knowing we had spent $6 billion on health some 6 years ago and $10 billion on health more recently, they would say we were any better off. Resoundingly they shake their heads in disbelief. They cannot believe we have spent an extra $4 billion when they can see no benefit. People are outraged. They say that they are, in fact, worse off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EWhen I thought about my opportunity to speak here this afternoon, I thought about what is happening in health. I looked at press releases such as \u201CPathology services at risk\u201D, \u201CCanterbury DHB failing to meet demand\u201D, \u201CWellingtonians have to be sicker to get operations\u201D, \u201CFinancial crisis at Capital and Coast DHB\u201D, \u201CHodgson needs to wake up\u201D\u2014we are looking forward to that\u2014and \u201CDramatic decline in heart surgery in Auckland\u201D. Another release reads: \u201CLabour cannot ignore call to review maternity services\u201D\u2014and boy, have we seen the headlines about that one. Others read: \u201CLabour\u2019s head in sand on GP crisis\u201D, and I wish to speak a bit more about that in a moment; \u201CPharmac advice leaves Health Minister red-faced\u201D, as we have heard; \u201CLabour irresponsible over BreastScreen\u201D; \u201CPatients counted, but no surgery\u201D, what another scandal that one was; and \u201CSmaller DHBs\u201D\u2014and I am in the area of one of them\u2014\u201Cstruggle for viability under population-based funding\u201D. I thought to myself that if those statements appeared over 6 months, then that would be fine; the Opposition would be exposing them. But it was not over 6 months; those are just 2 weeks\u2019 worth. It is absolutely horrifying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI wish to comment on the two further areas of aged care and general practitioners. First, I will deal with aged care. Last year Sherrill Dackers, on behalf of rural women of New Zealand and 18,000 others, petitioned Parliament to take urgent action to guarantee the provision of home-based care services for rural communities by paying travel costs and travel time for home-care workers who are required to travel more than 15 kilometres return to care for their clients. Those petitioners have exposed a problem that has been building over the years. The problem means those who are home-care workers in rural areas are doing it for the love of it. I understand some home-care workers are being paid no more than $1.52 an hour. That is absolutely criminal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003ESome of the first letters I wrote as an MP were to the Minister of Health. They were about home-care workers who were having problems making ends meet. I got a very reassuring answer that it was intended that the home-based support services price increase in 2005-06 be targeted to address travel costs for workers. Has that happened? No, it has not happened. I still receive phone calls about the problem and I am still making representations on the part of those same people. Aged-care services are grossly underfunded. We are undervaluing these very important members of our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe next thing I want to touch on is general practitioners. The crisis there has not arrived overnight. Over the past years we have heard only rhetoric about this growing problem that is now described as a crisis. General practitioners are overworked, underpaid, and ageing. That sounds pretty grotty, does it not? Hundreds are planning to quit, yet the Minister of Health says that general practitioners\u2019 profits are soaring and their training courses over subscribed. That does not sound like a very comforting thought, does it? Yet general practitioner discontent appears to be reaching fever pitch. Last year we heard that about a third of general practitioners were planning to leave, and their average age is 48 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022a367fbc5f3f14fc795fa7d45253de639\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a367fbc5f3f14fc795fa7d45253de639\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to thank Barbara Stewart for her contribution. I freely acknowledge that in its confidence and supply agreement New Zealand First states its interest in both ends of life, in terms of the availability and affordability of health care, and it hopes this would be free for children under 6. I acknowledge the member\u2019s ongoing attention to the health of older people, to the roll-out of the positive-ageing strategy, and to what we need to do to improve home-based support services, and so on. I thank her for her interest in those matters. Embraced in that is her interest in maternity services, and the Government enjoys her support as it seeks to improve linkages between midwives and primary health organisations, and as it seeks to improve data sets still further and introduce a mentoring system for new midwives, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI give a quick little reminder to the member that my predecessor, the Hon Annette King, indicated in the election campaign a bunch of moves we will be making in the area of child health, and she will have some familiarity with those. They include a newborn hearing screening programme to be rolled out in the course of this term of Government; improved child and adolescent oral health-care, especially a bunch of capital investments to be made there; improved child and adolescent mental health services, where often there is a shortage of adequate health workers; the preschool wellness check, and so on. I enjoyed the contribution from the member and thank her for her support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EAll of the other speakers came from the National Party, and it was a bit strange. Mr Ryall, who is the nominal health spokesperson, began, more as a sort of master of ceremonies than delivering a speech. He talked about what would follow, about what this person would say, what another colleague would say, and that verily they would have yet another colleague who would get up and make his or her contribution. Mr Ryall gave us an idea of what we would hear in the future, then sat down, having said only one other thing, and I took significant exception to what that was. It was his assertion that fewer New Zealanders are receiving surgery and elective surgery. Such assertions are wrong. They are simply at variance with the facts. I enjoin the member to try to pay attention to his own credibility and to his own reputation by making sure that he sticks to the facts, at least on occasion, because from time to time, facts ought to get in the way of a good story. It is not OK to say that fewer New Zealanders overall are receiving surgery than was the case 5 years ago. That simply is not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe rest of it seemed like a sort of sixth-form cabaret, actually. It was a sort of sing-songy roll-out of some pre-arranged positioning that had been carefully rehearsed in the lobby, complete with graphs that could not be seen on radio, and complete with what were clearly some well-worked-out lines about the \u201C5\u00BD out of 10\u201D theme. \u201CWe\u2019ll play that one at the Minister!\u201D, they said to themselves excitedly and breathlessly before they came into the Chamber. I say to members of the National Party health team that they should put in some more practice during their lunchtime, because it was not an auspicious beginning. They need to try harder. Let us hear what my view is of Annette King, because one of those cabaret players asked me to say what it was. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbd4a663faf848c190a854206ef1f05c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot do that; he knows he cannot barrage like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b73ce1dc0446ef9c41b7224256ade4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would say, uncomplicatedly, that Annette King was a hugely successful Minister of Health. She held the health portfolio for 6 years. I do not know of another person who has held that portfolio for 6 years in my adult life; it certainly did not happen in the 1990s. The National Government managed to get through five Ministers of Health in that time. A quarter of its caucus was at one time the Minister of Health and another third of its members were Associate Ministers of Health. We had Ministers Upton, Shipley, Creech, Birch, and English, and Associate Ministers of Health all over the place, since when members opposite have quickened their pace. They have had more health spokespeople in 6 years in Opposition than I can name. They have about five now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThat is what the National Party is like on health. Its members keep passing the parcel because they cannot get a grip on it, and the reason they cannot get a grip on it is that they do not think as strongly as we do on public health. They do not think of the importance of primary health care. They did not mention the following areas. In all of the time they took, did we hear anything about mental health? Not a word! Did we hear anything about M\u0101ori health? Not a word! Did we hear anything about the Pacific Island communities? Did we hear anything about the determinants of health? We heard nothing. All we got was niggle and scratch about pharmaceutical numbers versus Australia. As if it matters! What matters about that debate is that the Australians spend twice as much as us per head, so even if they are doing a little more than us, or a little less\u2014Pharmac versus the Researched Medicines Industry Association debate\u2014they are paying twice the amount. We did not hear about that from the National Party. There was an awful lot we did not hear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EOne thing came from Dr Coleman that I would strongly endorse, and I thank him for it. He said that obesity is an epidemic, and I say to that gentleman: \u201CRight on!\u201D. For the 20 or 30 minutes members opposite had to put their finger on something that matters in health, only one of their members did so. That was a rare moment. The next time we have a financial review, those members should practise more during the lunch hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcf63afe1e184f4bb973811b6583af22\u0022\u003EMinistry of Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022320dfd3706554c169bdffc6064d11c66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022320dfd3706554c169bdffc6064d11c66\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I tell the Committee that tonight I intend to focus specifically on the issue of funding for roads. I want to use a couple of Government pieces of advice to see whether I can convince the Minister\u2014and I am not try to be smart-alecky, rude, or nasty\u2014that, in fact, road funding needs to be put onto a more consistent, ongoing basis, with some longevity that the industry can work towards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EDr Michael Cullen makes the claim that at present the Government, with its couple of one-off announcements for Wellington, and with the announcements for Auckland, Waikato\u2014yet to come, I think\u2014and Tauranga and the Bay of Plenty, is currently spending about all the petrol tax at any rate. I think he is right, and I will try to be as fair and balanced as I can. The National Party has, for some time, believed that in order to provide some certainty for the contracting industry, we should take all of the petrol tax that is collected: approximately $1,200 million rather than approximately half a million dollars, with the other half a million dollars being put into the consolidated account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThose are just rough numbers, but there is a difference. If Dr Michael Cullen is right in saying the Government currently spends about $1,200 million on roading, which is money from the consolidated account, why is there a need for the change if the amount of money is the same? The reason is that it provides some certainty for the industry and for road-building contractors in the future. They will know, as the money is collected, that it will go towards the National Land Transport Programme, and work its way through to the National Land Transport Fund, so it can be spent. All that money will be required over the coming years, and I think the Minister is very aware of that in terms of an infrastructure deficit that has accumulated over decades. I am very happy to openly admit now there is an infrastructure deficit\u2014and I know my colleague Tau Henare has admitted that on his radio show\u2014so I will say again that I think we have underfunded roading in this country for decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIf one looks at the figures, one sees they show that back in the 1980s there was a massive funding drop. When the new Labour Government came in, in 1984, the funding dropped from about 1.3 percent of GDP down to under 1 percent, and it has stayed there. But anywhere else in the OECD the average has been about 1.3 percent. For those countries we would aspire to be like, such as Australia, and certainly its eastern states\u2014New South Wales and Victoria\u2014the percentage is about 1.5 to 1.6, or, in fact, 1.8 when one adds private sector spending to the percentage. So even if we were to move all the petrol tax over, and according to Dr Cullen we are spending a similar amount to that right now, it will not be enough and extra money will need to be spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn the two 5-minute calls that I will take I want to draw attention to some advice that I think Ministers in this Government should be very wary of with regard to how the current amount of money\u2014and it is not enough\u2014is being spent. The first issue I want to refer to is a Treasury report marked \u201CIn confidence\u201D and dated 28 June 2005, so it certainly comes into the period we are considering. The report is to the Minister of Finance, and I am happy to table the report or give a copy to members if they would like to see it. This is not the National Party\u2019s view, but that of Treasury analysts, who state in section 20 of the report, on page 8: \u201CInsufficient infrastructure may constrain productivity growth. Treasury\u2019s report on New Zealand economic growth argues that infrastructure is a facilitator of economic activity. If investment in infrastructure fails to respond to a growing economy, then bottlenecks result.\u201D We agree with that. I think no one here in this Committee, except maybe the Greens, would fail to agree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe report goes on to state: \u201CA recent internal Treasury project examines the questions of whether, from a national welfare perspective expenditure on roads is sufficient.\u201D The report then gets to be really interesting: \u201CTransfund conducts comprehensive cost-benefit analysis of potential projects and generally rejects projects that have rates of return less than 55 to 60 percent.\u201D I repeat: \u201Cand generally rejects projects that have rates of return less than 55 to 60 percent.\u201D The report goes on to state: \u201CThe methods Transfund uses to conduct the cost-benefit analysis appear to be sound\u201D\u2014so that is good news; they appear to be sound\u2014\u201Cand may, in fact, be underestimating the return from proposed projects.\u201D Again, that is something really worthwhile to focus on. They appear to be sound methodologies, but they may actually be underestimating the value of these roads. The report then states: \u201CThis suggests substantial road infrastructure underinvestment.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThat comes from Treasury, not the National Party, and I remind the Minister that we are not having a smack at him. The Treasury report states: \u201CNew Zealand seems to be passing up road investments that would earn a very high return\u201D. I will repeat some of that, because it is good: \u201CNew Zealand seems to be passing up road investments that would earn a very high return (certainly much higher than the return earned by marginal investments in the private sector). Insufficient road investment may be a bottleneck constraining overall productivity, although we don\u2019t know just how big the problem is, or how much the aggregated productivity would be if these constraints were eliminated.\u201D I say that every member of this House should read that report, because I think that nails it in a nutshell from one side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI will tell the Minister why I am concerned about the one-offs and the bits and pieces\u2014we will fund this, and we will give a bit to that, so Wellington will get a chunk of this and then it will get that, and we will do the Waikato next, and we have done the Bay of Plenty, and so on. It is because the incoming Treasury briefing to the Minister of Finance is almost the complete antithesis of what I have just read out. On page 16 it states: \u201CAny further investment in the short term is likely to result in cost escalation rather than improved transport outcomes. \u2026 Since 2004 there has been a move away from the benefit-cost approach for determining funding priorities as a consequence of the New Zealand Transport Strategy,\u201D\u2014so that the New Zealand land transport strategy that was brought in a few years ago has a consequence, and we have moved away from that approach\u2014\u201Cas well as a number of regional transport packages. There is a danger that this had led to some projects that have relatively low BCRs\u201D\u2014benefit-cost ratios\u2014\u201Cbeing funded.\u201D So there is the Treasury warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be8962eb9f87429288e9ee27033b4e42\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: It may be underfunding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c2d2785a864662878e9a8609c63302\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Gosche can get all excited over there on the Government benches if he wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d57768a7911142fd8ad2e2dd0a47f0b6\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: They are the roads you did not build.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236362a900a2b409f9ac0946cba6e0bc6\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: But let me tell members that that is the Treasury briefing of 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EMr Gosche has gone back to saying those are the roads that we did not build. Let us get something clear about the time frames. The National Party went out of office last century. Labour has been the Government ever since, and to keep going on about it all being National\u2019s fault belies the argument about how quickly one could actually build the roads. In Melbourne, for example, the ConnectEast road\u2014a 39 kilometre, 3-lane either way roading project is to be built by the private sector in 3 years flat. So if, in fact, it was all our fault and the problem goes back into the 1990s\u2014and let us go with that\u2014who has been the Government for the last 6\u00BD years, heading on to 7 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d005095ff104dfaa4b6d4aca498fd4f\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c369424b9e3410db9bfd53d4307d297\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good answer: \u201CNobody knows.\u201D One can keep going back into history, saying it is all National\u2019s fault, for only so long. I know that is the trick of a new Government and is probably even the trick of a Government that is just moving into its second term. But, by the time a Government is starting into its third term, the public says: \u201CHang on.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThis Treasury document states\u2014and again I say it is not a National Party document, although it is in a lovely blue colour and I commend Treasury for sticking with true-blue colours; that is great\u2014\u201CThere is a danger this has led to some projects that have relatively low BCRs being funded. We would recommend that all land transport funding should be based on a rigorous, nationally consistent, and transparent allocation framework rather than targeted to specific regions or modes.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI tell the Minister that in reviewing the whole issue of transport and road funding, we should look at both of those articles from the Treasury, because both of them are right. One, we are significantly underfunding roading. Not only will the amount of money that comes from the petrol tax be required but so will a big chunk more. Two, it is unlikely that that money will come from Government coffers\u2014very unlikely. It would probably be unlikely to come from Government coffers if National was in Government. So the money will have to come either from debt or private sector funding, and every member of this Committee knows that. Yet where are the private sector road ventures in this country? There is not a mutter or a murmur of such ventures\u2014not one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI will not hear the argument that no private sector road venture is economic here. I have heard that argument before. In Britain, the Labour Government ran that argument. It said there was no room for private roads in Britain. Two weeks ago I drove up and down on the M6 toll road in Birmingham. It is a fantastic, 27-mile long road that Tony Blair\u2014Tau Henare\u2019s friend\u2014and the Labour Government built. They said it had worked out so well that they had the appetite to build a whole lot more private roading. But that does not happen here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002298dccc4bfaa84928a82f49bc0cfc7f7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298dccc4bfaa84928a82f49bc0cfc7f7c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Acting Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The last few remarks of Maurice Williamson were not as well put together as his earlier remarks, which I thought were very helpful and contributed very usefully to the debate. The member said he wanted to talk about funding for roads. Land Transport is about a lot more than roads, but I will respond on the topic he has raised, because that is the fair thing to do. Although the national land transport strategy is about much more than roads, we can talk about roads for a while. I thought the member made a pretty good point. He has witnessed, when he was Minister and subsequently\u2014during the course of this Government\u2014lots of changes of plans, delays, advancements, things coming on and off the schedule, money being put in by Governments, though it needs to be said that that has happened more since the change of Government than before. As he pointed out, there has been a bunch of regional joint official group projects\u2014in Auckland, initially, then in Wellington a couple of times, in the Bay of Plenty, and, soon to be announced, in Waikato. All of those things are true. The Government has continued to put more money into the National Land Transport Fund by capital injection. Maurice Williamson has argued that we simply need to shift all of the money that is nominally put across to the consolidated account to the National Land Transport Fund, in order to give certainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIt is not a bad argument. I say to the member that the Government is currently looking not at doing what he suggests\u2014I say straight up\u2014but at ensuring that we can get a higher level of certainty, especially in the next few years. Certainty in years 9 and 10 will always be a challenge. Certainty in the first several years is certainly a possibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI need to point out to the member that because oil is experiencing a very significant increase in demand, and because it will soon, at some stage\u2014in some year, some decade\u2014show a maxing out of supply, we will see the price of petrol go up. In the event of us not being able to shift adequately or quickly enough to, for example, biofuels or other forms of motive power, we will see the use of motor cars drop. Indeed, technology already allows for the use of motor car revenue to drop, so he does not have a panacea. If members can imagine in 3 years from now the importation of second-hand hybrids into this country, or the very significant increase in the sale of new hybrids, they will begin to see that the certainty that the member is seeking is actually quite elusive. He is a smart enough guy, and he has been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caff1e65d7c84785ac2981ecf3435ce0\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: We need to go to direct charter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba64716404248188391fee74d072859\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: He has already got an answer to that. I am just saying that the position that was put up by the member does not provide all of the certainty that he and I would wish it to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI want to take issue with the member on the great thing of the benefit-cost ratio. I say to him that if a person wipes himself or herself out as he or she approaches a bridge in Southland\u2014as a relative of mine tragically did\u2014or if that happens twice, then there will be a new approach to that bridge. It may be\u2014not in the case that I mentioned\u2014that both of those people had been drinking. It would still count, and that bridge would still be realigned because of those two lost lives, when a word in the publican\u2019s ear might have done the job. That is where a benefit-cost ratio falls down. One cannot get killed on an Auckland motorway when traffic is snarled up. It is not going fast enough. That is why during the 1990s, when the National Government paid undue attention to a benefit-cost ratio, it ended up putting its investment in the wrong place\u2014I say that assertively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI quote an email I received not so long ago from a board member of Transit. This board member extolled the virtues of the \u201Cnew\u201D approach, which is more holistic, where more factors have to be taken into account, and where a bit of lateral thinking has to take place. Transit had made a very good decision by its standards and decided that it had done a very good job. The board member\u2019s email said that in the days of the benefit-cost ratio he would roll up for a meeting, have a look at the page of projects for that month, work his way down the page because it is ranked from the highest benefit-cost ratio to the lowest, draw a line when Transit ran out of money for that month\u2014which he said was never far enough down the page\u2014and pick up his brain at the door on the way out. That is not good decision-making. I say to the member that I understand his attachment to benefit-cost ratios. We still use them to an extent. It is a good methodology, but like all methodologies it is a good servant and a bad master.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bd6512e27064d47a2c2f328adde7b66\u0022\u003EMinistry of M\u0101ori Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9ce808a73cb45ff8f79655a4179b9cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9ce808a73cb45ff8f79655a4179b9cd\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me pleasure to speak in the financial review debate of the Ministry of M\u0101ori Development. This report is the second draft that has been released. I want to give my thanks to the Chief Executive of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, Leith Comer, for turning up and giving his dissertation to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EWhen one moves through the report, one sees that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri appears to have moved its focus and resources away from its monitoring role. The Ministry of Maori Development Act states specifically that the role of the Ministry of M\u0101ori Development is to monitor other Government agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d99b5ec002a4f2e8aa37972c3939e50\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Really?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7cd621730fc4024b944288573b4591a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what the select committee said. It believes that the Act is there to direct rather than merely to guide the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that Parekura Horomia has been a Minister for 6 years. [Interruption] It is far too long. In that time, he has received a salary of between $160,000 and $180,000 a year. Over a million dollars of public money has been paid to a Minister who has not brought one piece of legislation to the House, and, if he has, it has been an omnibus, clean-up bill, or whatever one calls it\u2014not one thing. But he parades himself around this nation saying that he and his Government have been the ones who have cut unemployment. I have to tell him that it is not the Government who cuts unemployment; it is the employers out there who, in good times, make sure that they do the employing. Nobody in the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf3589d77d034410b9b7b49c21d888bc\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Why did it not happen under National, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252e20c15a00c4a04968c4b644e5e77a9\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Quite frankly, we did not sit on our bums doing nothing. We put in place all the things that were necessary for the community to survive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThe report says it is a crying shame that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri is not being allowed to do its business. We can all blame the chief executive, Leith Comer. That is the easy option. But who is the patsy in all of this? It is Parekura Horomia, who has not done a damn thing in 6 years. He took over from one of the hardest-working Ministers of M\u0101ori Affairs. That is right\u2014it was Dover Samuels. Do members remember him? He was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs for about 5 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb69ed13b8f4f64ab6859fc97d60b5b\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: What about the one before him? He was great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6ebdb4ed0f84bc9880d728c2daff261\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: He was great. But this Minister has sat in his seat for 6 long years\u2014and where are we now? We are still at the bottom of the totem pole. The Minister looks at me incredulously, because he does not really understand what a totem pole is. The fact of the matter is that nothing has happened. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I take great offence at the words muttered by Shane Jones, and I respectfully ask you to direct him to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c30236ee3f4470d89192e2781a83e0d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry but I did not hear what the honourable member said. If the member is taking offence under a personal reflection that was implied by the member, then I ask the member to desist and withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb8dd9f4261491c8ba9709eb90f7cbe\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: They were M\u0101ori words. Perhaps we should provide a translation first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b171a55104445d6b586c66e9223dc5a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Chairman, I do not see anything in the Standing Orders that says there should be a translation. If I have taken offence, then that is it, and you are bound to ask the member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208786b44b80f4341ae00eb3382107728\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a personal reflection. It is covered by Standing Order 116 and it depends on what has actually been said. Offensive references to a member\u2019s private affairs or personal reflections on things like character are totally out of order and they should be withdrawn and apologised for. If that is in fact what has happened, then I ask the member to withdraw and desist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022867f11dcec564af28016e6df172abc51\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd10f44261f2489d8fd1430216bf85ac\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fact that I released this report early, and I want to apologise again to the members of the select committee for doing so. But it was watered down a wee bit by the Labour Party, which did not really want to sign up to a hard-nosed report and to go that extra mile. For that I do not apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIt is a good report. It puts the Minister on notice, and, hopefully, he will find the decency to get up and actually have a go at reading the report. I wonder whether he has even read the report; I doubt it very much. The first time he saw the report was probably when he got out of his seat tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00229f3607897d544262ae8173e0c7e5ad26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f3607897d544262ae8173e0c7e5ad26\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I laboured tediously over the report, and I did so when the report was rightfully released, not when some fools tried to accelerate some of the nonsense that was pushed out of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. I am sure that if we were on another journey, the Ministry of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2019 financial results would not be before this Committee tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI want to be quite clear in relation to what the Act states, so that we can put this right tonight\u2014properly. Although the Act makes the ministry responsible for a monitoring and liaising role, it does not provide any powers to carry out that role; nor does it specify how the role should be carried out. This Government and the ministry carried it out well. [Interruption] That is right. Leith Comer and his committee carried it out well. I commend the Ministry of M\u0101ori Affairs for the effort it put in over that period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI remind my friend Tau Henare, a former Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2014whom I used to go fishing with on Thursday nights because he was so out of work that he did not know what to do; he used to get senior public servants from ministries to go fishing with him, and he was so hopeless that he never caught anything\u2014of his time as Minister. This guy thinks he knows better as to what is good for M\u0101ori and what is bad for them. In his time and on his watch 48,000 M\u0101ori were unemployed; on my watch, there are now 16,000. That is the result of great support from the Ministry of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2014Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u2014and hard effort from this Government. When Tau was last a Minister, his Government froze the minimum wage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f1b8ed1e6934e35978c2647003a05f9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will use the member\u2019s full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314dbb4a05c74af0aaf4bbadae54fbeb\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: When Mr Tau Henare\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb9645746af49429e8b20768a8eac1b\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Tau Henare to you, Charlie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b906431ba54434a7f5c364381838c8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I heard that. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d0a24a6a8b646ec89d4949c82a5cfb0\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ebbc39b427441dc9e9e2a744d3bd946\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: When the Hon Tau Henare was representing a seat, he was the real M\u0101ori spokesman for the National Party\u2014and I know he is putting in every effort to become so again, and quite rightly, I say to Mr Tisch. There are two M\u0101ori members from that party, and he should be the spokesperson. That is what he is really up to, and it is important that members recognise that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EWhen he was the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs his Government froze the minimum wage. On my watch, it has increased six times. Members should read about Working for Families. I am happy to say that we have increased incomes for everyone. It is not about wealth for the greedy; it is about recognising the needy\u2014and Mr Henare certainly knows that. That is dead right. I am really happy that 20,500 M\u0101oris are in industry training. I am not happy that violence still continues in households, in both M\u0101oridom and P\u0101keh\u0101dom. We will try to do something about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225015eba1697a4f898a9b6c739e4bb8f2\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: When are you going to start?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da65a045c68f403297c1be10ff9f5ec6\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I am sad to see that Tau has changed his tune now that he is back in this House. Almost 9 years ago to the day, on 8 May 1997, he said in this House: \u201CI finish by saying that we stand here today with a great opportunity to work together for our people, not only as Maori people but as a nation. What is good for Maori must be good for the nation.\u201D I ask Tau what has changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c410812f8e914c078f2b87326e9c2a8c\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224044d6e0492c465d910045e258b3f160\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. The member\u2019s priorities changed. The Hon Tau Henare should be National\u2019s M\u0101ori spokesperson so that he can put on the table the platitudes and the negativity that his party tries to imbue\u2014from \u014Crewa to down here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of M\u0101ori Affairs has done well. I tell members that the next 5 to 10 years will be the most prolific time for M\u0101oridom\u2014and this Government has helped that. This Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs has done well, even if only he says that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd8307141354eb5a2a9a2146dfdb469\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister told me that he is going to retire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022842817054e8d490ca1170b3147eb652c\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I remind Mr Henare\u2014and I do not wish to call him anything that is not accepted in this House, apart from reminding him who he is\u2014that the New Zealand Herald states: \u201CHenare takes back \u2018liar\u2019 comment\u201D. The member needs to take it back, because he knows that it is a fib. It is the same as what he did to Tony Blair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd96a9bb47e4ee085f1545cf7642271\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I caution the member that, firstly, he is out of his time, and, secondly, the use of the word \u201Cfib\u201D is not permitted in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b72692ef82384870899fb17722390fea\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I think the Minister was actually going for a second 5-minute call, because he was in full swing. We are quite happy that the Minister take the other 5-minute call, which he is entitled to. I see that he is still sitting there and is keen to finish his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a9fc331216d49c18c581f088a7bbda8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It is up to the Minister whether he would like to take another call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c434b6b6de4652a934d8766405a73c\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I am inviting the Minister Parekura Horomia to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223654f2befe594bce8494a562937b8923\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Members have heard enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276284ba910c241428a6252309dee20ce\u0022\u003EMinistry of Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4d338bde820456d8e181acce67a0a59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4d338bde820456d8e181acce67a0a59\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E The consideration of the estimates and financial reviews in the Committee of the whole House has traditionally been regarded as the time dedicated to holding the Government to account. And what better day to hold the Government to account for the work of the Ministry of Justice than today\u2014a day on which the nation is reeling from the damning Report of the Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms of Indigenous People, presented to the United Nations by Rodolfo Stavenhagen. I urge the Minister of Justice to spend his adjournment time in looking over that report, and in considering how he may implement the many recommendations, in terms of both policy formulation and practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe special rapporteur considers that New Zealand\u2019s human rights legislation does not provide sufficient protection mechanisms regarding the collective rights of M\u0101ori that emanate from article 2 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014in other words, our tino rangatiratanga. The M\u0101ori Party has made approaches to the Auditor-General and the Human Rights Commission regarding the Foreshore and Seabed Act, and the response, in our view, was inadequate. The report of the special rapporteur supports our view. He also considers that the underlying legal and political fragility of M\u0101ori rights translates into a human rights protection gap that seems not to be sufficiently covered by existing legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe legal and political fragility of M\u0101ori was brought home to us most vividly this morning, with reports of our car-koi allegedly breaking the law. We were advised by members of the car-koi that yesterday two of their cars, one with Mr Hone Harawira\u2019s face featured on it and another with a M\u0101ori Party flag flying from the window, were followed through the fine town of Tokoroa, a haven for M\u0101ori Party activity. When apprehended, the car driver was charged with unreasonable use of a warning device. Cars were sounding their horns in support, in a celebration of democracy. The alleged offence incurred an infringement fee of $1,000 for one driver and $750 for the other. The offences included driving in a manner likely to annoy other people. Well, although I cannot see it, I suppose the dial of Mr Harawira has the potential to annoy other people, who may envy those incredible good looks, but it does seem bizarre to me that the only cars pulled out of the line of cars travelling that road were those identified with the M\u0101ori Party insignia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe legal and political fragility of our people\u2014as proven in Tokoroa\u2014is seen day after day in the courts of this land. It is little wonder that the special rapporteur also became aware of it. As the House was told earlier today, the United Nations special rapporteur\u2019s report found: \u201CThe inherent rights of M\u0101ori were not constitutionally recognized\u2026\u201D. For that reason the report of the United Nations included a very strong recommendation about the urgent need for constitutional reform, in order to regulate clearly the relationship between the Government and M\u0101ori people on the basis of the Treaty of Waitangi and the internationally recognised rights of all people to self-determination. The special rapporteur recommends that the Treaty of Waitangi should be entrenched constitutionally. He also recommends that the MMP electoral system should be constitutionally entrenched to guarantee adequate representation of M\u0101ori in the legislature and at regional and local government levels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThat is a key recommendation for the Minister of Justice, and it could hardly have had better timing than the very start of the M\u0101ori electoral option campaign. We are greatly heartened by reports from political analysts that the political landscape will change dramatically through the proactive decisions of large numbers of young M\u0101ori who are enrolling to vote. We know that the numbers of M\u0101ori seats in this House could be increased to 13 if all tangata whenua enrolled on the M\u0101ori roll. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis is the most exciting opportunity for tangata whenua to increase our influence in the political decision-making of this nation. The independent M\u0101ori political voice is a means to achieving tino rangatiratanga\u2014that is, a degree of self-determination consistent with Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The independent M\u0101ori political voice in this House has created a wave of interest for many M\u0101ori people to participate as equals. Is that not worth sounding our horns for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00227c5194e02d3349688e22400bbe0991eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c5194e02d3349688e22400bbe0991eb\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a brief call. I think this has been a week in which we can take some sadness at the performance of the National Party when it comes to the M\u0101ori electoral option. I was not planning on taking a call on this but, frankly, I was appalled at the failure to rise to the challenge of leadership shown by Dr Brash in terms of the M\u0101ori electoral option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EMonday was an opportunity for members of this House, regardless of their party political persuasion, to participate in encouraging New Zealanders to get on to an electoral roll. I do not care what roll it is, frankly. As Minister of Justice I could not care less which roll people get on to. I absolutely, passionately care that all New Zealanders take the opportunity to get on to an electoral roll, to make that decision for themselves, and to participate. I suggest that every member of this Parliament should share that passionate commitment. To have the leader of the National Party\u2014a party that once, I think, could pride itself on its commitment to our democracy\u2014trying to score cheap political points on a Sunday afternoon, when not much else seemed to be happening around the press gallery, was disappointing. So yet again, predictably, I suppose, he trotted out the stir up\u2014the \u201Cpick off the nasty scab\u201D\u2014of the issue of race relations, and one or two people bought into it. But I was disappointed, and somewhat surprised, that even Dr Brash would sink to that, because this is an opportunity to say to young New Zealanders in particular: \u201CGet on a roll, participate, and make your choice\u2014whether it is the M\u0101ori roll or the general roll.\u201D While we are about it, I tell any New Zealander who is of a mind to\u2014because we are focusing on electoral rolls\u2014to get on a roll and be a participant in our democracy. That is what this is about. But instead of that, we saw this cheap, tacky attempt to score a political point off the back of the same tired, old, prejudiced, and divisive process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aae4e05c97b641eb9dcfbcd24ab6b11c\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that got to do with the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5547a0648b446f2aeb0ea1db76909d7\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does not that sum it up? That member is sitting opposite, on the front bench, posing as a wannabe, and asking what this has got to do with the review. What has this got to do with our democracy? It is about encouraging people to participate and to be part of it. Instead, we hear unsubstantiated criticism and accusation. We heard Dr Brash say that there are people out there trying to force people on to the M\u0101ori roll\u2014and this was on the day before the process even started. The day before the start of the face-to-face campaign to get young New Zealanders on to the electoral rolls, Dr Brash told the media that people were out there trying to corrupt the process, bending the system, and trying to force others on to the Maori roll. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EWhat was the truth of the matter? No one was out there doing anything. It was the day before the campaign had even started. Does not that sum up the sad, tired state that that National Party has got itself into? Its members are waging nasty, silly little campaigns, trying to stir up prejudice and ill behaviour between New Zealanders, instead of showing some leadership, showing some style, and encouraging our people to get on to the electoral rolls and participate in the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EWell, on this occasion I have to say that I share the view of Tariana Turia, who said that if this was the sort of behaviour the National Party was going to demonstrate, it might have to think again about ever having any friends in this place. I think she is right, and I welcome that insight. I say to those members opposite that they might be new but they had better get used to the seats they are sitting in, because on the basis of this sort of behaviour they will be there for a very, very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aa7ae55234d489bb88b7df694d7b407\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What has that got to do with the financial review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558ce76f635c42d78ca5e0badfaf19af\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: This has everything to do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a605d719952f48338b7e5b520625ddb0\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t know your portfolio. That\u2019s why you\u2019re talking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c33b2975564f349a849b0e8a016876\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, look! The member sits there, talking about my portfolios. The member has not made a useful contribution to the House. She is another muckraker. All that member has brought to this House is disrepute, mud-slinging, and character assassination. I suggest to that member that she try to make some useful contribution to this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022782972a7c9a04dafa9ccede8acab5c14\u0022\u003EDepartment of Internal Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022987198824fdb4dd4981a1b153cce3045\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022987198824fdb4dd4981a1b153cce3045\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It with some regret that I rise to speak on this because I would dearly love to get involved in transport issues. I read the financial review of the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014the report by the Government Administration Committee\u2014and I recognise that some good points were made about the department. I will put them on the Hansard record: \u201CFor the 2004/05 financial year, the Office of the Auditor-General issued an unqualified audit opinion on the financial statements of the department. For 2004/05 the department received an \u2018excellent\u2019 rating for its financial control systems and its financial management control environment.\u201D That is high praise, indeed. The report goes on to explain\u2014and I welcome this because not many people understand it\u2014why a passport has increased in cost from $71 to $150. A reasonable explanation is given in this report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWhat concerns me is an issue that the Government Administration Committee did not pick up and that the Minister\u2014and, I have to say, the Minister before him\u2014failed to address: the reappointment of the Film and Literature Board of Review. Currently, eight of the nine members are out of time, not only by a day or a month but by nearly 2 years. That is more than an oversight\u2014that is a reflection on the competence or the genuineness of the Minister and the ministry. I say to the Minister that this issue should have been addressed months ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWhat this country needs\u2014because it is a very important board, which does not get into the limelight\u2014is a board made up of decent, law-abiding, stable people who understand the ill effects on young people or on those with impressionable minds who get access to what I would call \u201Cgarbage\u201D movies. I understand that a number of people have put their names forward to the Minister and the ministry to serve on this board, and not one of them\u2014if my current information is correct\u2014has received a personal acknowledgment. The Minister is on record as saying that members will be appointed by April, but judging by the way these boards have been appointed in the past, he does not have a dog\u2019s show. In previous times the ministry has sent out quite a comprehensive document to those who are interested or who have put their names forward to serve on this board. But, thus far, the current applicants have received nothing\u2014not a single word, acknowledgment, or indication that they may or may not be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Minister might ask why this is so important. Well, we were told in the media only this morning, or maybe yesterday morning, that the rate of violence in this country is up. We were told by the Minister of Police this afternoon that the rate of violence has gone up principally because of domestic violence in this country. In my hand I have a number of censors\u2019 reports on DVDs and VHSs that are readily available to people over the age of 18. I have not read these reports; they are sickening. I have glanced through some areas, and, without exception, they portray incidents and events that dehumanise and degrade women, and revolting scenarios. They are absolutely revolting. And these are getting past the censor. Frankly, the members of the Film and Literature Board of Review know that their time is up, and they are not showing the right amount of initiative. I seek leave to table a dozen or so censors\u2019 reports on these DVDs and VHSs that have been released and that people over the age of 18 can get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c73159312106484fa7b43340935abdc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c73159312106484fa7b43340935abdc4\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I think the points raised by Peter Brown require a response. Mr Brown correctly said that the appointment of the Film and Literature Board of Review was overdue, and I accept that. It has not been because of oversight or slovenly action; a sequence of events has brought this about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EFirstly, a review of the legislation was considered by Parliament in 2005. Whilst that Parliament was considering that legislation, the then Minister of Internal Affairs felt it was inappropriate to change the board at that time. Once the legislation had been through, we were then within the shadow of the 2005 election, and the Minister\u2014quite correctly, I believe\u2014said that because the election was so imminent, it would be inappropriate for him to appoint the incoming board. So we held it off until after the election. After the election there was a process of consultation, and things were held up by the Christmas break, but the process is almost complete. I did say to Mr Brown that we hope to have the matter concluded by April, and I am still hopeful of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe issue here is about what is objectionable and what is not. I say to Mr Brown, who has been to see me on this issue, that I accept the passion of his advocacy on these issues. I do not doubt for one moment his sincerity, whatsoever. But the point I have made to the member on a couple of occasions is that, despite the fact I am the Minister responsible for the portfolio, I do not consider myself particularly expert in making these decisions. I want to consider that we have a process that is robust, but I have also to accept my personal limitations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThere is a range of factors here. First, let us accept that the standards of what are acceptable and objectionable today differ from those when I was growing up in the 1960s. Things have moved on, and they will continue to move on. Second, when one is making judgments about things, one\u2019s relative age comes into it. It has always been accepted that young people have a love of the new and that old people have a fear of the new. So there is tension in society between the attitude of the younger generation and that of the older generation. I can see this when I go to films with my daughter. Some of the films I do not particularly like, but she says to me: \u201CDon\u2019t be silly, that was just make-believe. Don\u2019t be daft about these things.\u201D I feel a bit uncomfortable about this, so I have to accept the limitations of my perspective on life because of the situation I am in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWe have to find the best people that we think we can. But, more important, we have to have a robust process and make sure it is well founded. I have been through the Office of Film and Literature Classification carefully and I have spoken to all the staff. I have found that one of the processes they use is to invite members of the public to come and review a film before it is given a classification. The censor then sets out what issues are to be considered and invites the public to make its determination on what classification the film should have. I think this is a very interesting process, and is one I was unaware of before. I have said to the board that I want to go along and observe indirectly for myself\u2014I have offered Mr Peter Brown the same opportunity, and I would offer other members of the House the opportunity to go too\u2014because I think it is important to try to figure out whether this process has got it right, and just to be convinced that there is a process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI cannot allow my own personal views to cloud what others see, because the other fundamental point we need to make here is that we are in a democracy. One of the fundamental tenets of a democracy is freedom of speech and freedom of expression. It is wrong for us to curtail other people\u2019s rights and freedom of speech and their freedom to see what they choose to see\u2014but, of course, there are exceptions. The exceptions are when the film is about exploitation, degradation, humiliation, and all of those things. We have to set a line at which point we say we will not go across, but we have to be very careful, I say to Mr Brown, when we set that line because, if we allow the line to be moved vicariously and at the will of an individual, we will then cut away from people their rights of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. We should always defend those rights, because it is absolutely fundamental to a democracy that people have freedom of speech and freedom of expression. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI make the other point to Mr Brown that I think he should congratulate the Department of Internal Affairs on the excellent work it has been doing on catching people who are forwarding objectionable material on the Internet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc2db744812e43998b23f0c20b3ab34b\u0022\u003EMinistry of Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022accc21fabf8a40179cafb3519fefb160\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022accc21fabf8a40179cafb3519fefb160\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I will stick pretty much to the report itself, because I think this is far too important a time to ignore\u2014as the Hon Mark Burton did\u2014the actual report, and to talk instead about all sorts of extraneous matters. I want to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to some of the issues raised by the Social Services Committee, which is, I must say, a very happy committee. The members get along very well and we deal with the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe first issue is early intervention. Quite a lot has been said about early intervention programmes, and I think most members in this House would agree that early intervention for children who are at risk is a very important concept that we all want to support. A problem with early intervention has always been getting any evidence as to what sort of early intervention works\u2014evidence about when, how, and for which families; particularly, for which children. The Social Services Committee has been very much concerning itself with the issue. We asked the Ministry of Social Development about the matter, and we found that programmes such as Family Start, Strengthening Families, and Early Start have been funded. Of course, Family Start was begun by National when it was last in Government, and the Labour Government has since taken that programme over\u2014and good on the Government for admitting that it is a good programme. But in addition to that it is very important that those programmes, with large amounts of money flowing through them, get to the people who need them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI have been very concerned to find out about a situation in Invercargill, where a Family Start programme seems to have been hijacked and taken over by a small trust. The main people in the trust are all family members, two of whom are very connected to, and part of, the Southland District Health Board. Why the Minister and the ministry should have been alerted to that situation was the fact that Barnardos lost the programme contract to that group. Most of us will have seen the work of Barnardos over the years and will have realised that that organisation has provided particularly good assistance in that area, so that should have been a warning bell to the Minister and the ministry. Unfortunately, that does not seem to have happened, so we are asking questions about the $3.6 million of funding for that programme, and what has happened to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe are also interested in the debt management situation of beneficiaries. This Government\u2014or any Government, really\u2014is not doing anyone any favours by allowing beneficiaries to run up huge amounts of debt that is owed to the very people who pay them the benefit. At the moment the debt owed to the Ministry of Social Development is $316.7 million. That money is owed by 186,000 people, or 49 percent of all beneficiaries. That is a shocking figure. It indicates to me and to other members of the committee that something is very wrong in the way that the debt situation is being administered, because we are not getting a reduction in those figures despite all the programmes we have been told about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAnother area of great concern is the numbers of people on the sickness benefit and invalids benefit, and the fact that those numbers have continued to grow under this Government. In the last year 73,813 working-age adults received an invalids benefit and 46,067 received a sickness benefit. That is an awful lot of people who are too sick to work\u2014and it is an awful lot of people who are too sick to work despite the large increases of funding that have gone into the health budget. Again, that indicates something that is of real concern to me and to other members of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI was very concerned to see that the ministry tried to excuse the increase simply by saying that the increase was not as much as it had been the year before. Frankly, that answer is not good enough when there are jobs around, and when large amounts of money are being spent on health. We expect that people are not necessarily getting sicker, and that people are getting into work wherever it is available. There is a great deal of concern amongst some members of the committee, myself included, that the sickness benefit and invalids benefit have been used as a way of \u201Cparking\u201D people who are not easily employed or who do not want to be employed. That is a real shame, because some people are very genuinely on either the sickness benefit or the invalids benefit, and it is very important that those people should not feel that their honesty is being compromised by the comments I am making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe also note that employment figures have certainly increased. That is a very good sign and we are very pleased about that. However, we were somewhat concerned when the ministry assured those of us on the committee that as long as 2 percent growth is sustained in the economy, the current system will remain viable. We were very concerned, because we are not seeing much growth in the economy, and we cannot go around congratulating ourselves on employment figures all the time if the unemployment rate suddenly starts to rise. Some of us are certainly concerned that this Government does not have adequate answers on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhat we have heard talked about as the great answer to beneficiary numbers is something called the single core benefit. Many of us on the committee have some grave doubts about just how that single core benefit will deliver a better system for beneficiaries\u2014or, in fact, for the taxpayer, because it is very much a mutual situation. We have said that we would like to know how the pilot programme has resulted in considerable reductions in the staff, the resources, and the time spent on the administration of the benefits system, because that system was first wheeled out by the Hon Michael Cullen when he was Minister of Social Welfare back in 1989. It was to be the new cure-all, and it was going to be wonderful\u2014and I can see that some members of the Committee who were there at the time are nodding. Then it was wheeled out again, I recall from memory, in about 2000 by the Hon Steve Maharey, and it was to be the wonderful new scheme. And it came out again last year after Don Brash\u2019s \u014Crewa speech on welfare. It popped up again, but now it seems to be suddenly fading a weeny bit, and some of us on the select committee feel that that may be because it is not quite the cure-all it was promoted to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI will certainly ask more questions about the single core benefit, and about what it is delivering, because I think many of us would agree that it is great to get people who can work into work. But it is also very important that we do not just kid ourselves that if we shove together all the numbers of people on the unemployment benefit, sickness benefit, invalids benefit, and domestic purposes benefit, it will suddenly turn them all into one and hide growing increases in unemployment figures or in the number of those on the sickness benefit and invalids benefit. So we will be very interested to watch that situation. I see the select committee has in fact indicated that its members want to keep that system under very close review, and I can promise the Committee of the whole House that we will be doing exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd0c0b04fd8c43baa2140880756ec760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd0c0b04fd8c43baa2140880756ec760\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E As one might expect when dealing with one of the largest-spending Government departments, the financial review of the Ministry of Social Development has, as usual, highlighted a number of difficult issues. The most urgent area of concern right now for the Green Party is the fact that just after the review process was completed, the longstanding special benefit was abolished. As of 3 days ago, on 1 April, it has been replaced by the temporary additional support benefit, otherwise known as \u201CTAS\u201D. This is no April Fool\u2019s joke, much as I would like it to be. I asked questions during the select committee review to try to find out more about how the department envisages the temporary additional support would actually work in terms of helping all those who will miss out, now that the special benefit has been terminated. The answers we got then, and continue to get, do not in any way allay my fears that in fact what will happen constitutes a major benefit cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E Labour MPs should be very worried about what they are allowing to occur under their noses, and I do acknowledge those MPs on the select committee who expressed their concerns about what is happening here. Up until now, the special benefit has provided a third-tier level of last-ditch assistance for people for whom the gap between their income and the necessities of life is too big to bridge in any other way. Unfortunately, because the 1991 benefit cuts were never restored, and because income support and wages have been kept deliberately low since then anyway, far too many beneficiaries, and even some low-wage employed workers, have needed the discretion offered by the special benefit just to survive. However, from last weekend we will have the temporary additional support benefit instead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThere is no discretion. The formula used is fixed and inflexible. Case officers appear to be left with no capacity to take cognisance of peoples\u2019 actual or individual circumstances, no matter how desperate they might be. The expenses that will be taken into account when calculating the temporary additional support benefit are extremely limited, and even when they are allowed, in most cases there are limits, which means the beneficiary pays the rest of the gap, no matter how badly off he or she is, or how high the costs are. The people likely to be most adversely impacted are single people and couples who do not have children, but who do have particular health and disability expenses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe maximum levels of payment are reduced. On top of that, the temporary additional support benefit is, as the name states, a very temporary payment of 13 weeks, and there are huge issues about what will happen for people once their time limit is up, even if they get the help they need in the first place, and even if there is a system where they are constantly turned round through review after review at each 13-week point. How long will that go on for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe current Minister and his predecessor, the Hon Steve Maharey, have reassured us over and over again that no one will lose out in the shift from the special benefit to the temporary additional support benefit. However, that assurance applies only to people who are already getting the special benefit, what is colloquially called \u201Cgrandparenting\u201D. For people who are in need of help for the first time, or who have been out of the benefit system for even a short while, only the new rules will apply, as far as I can ascertain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAs the Wellington People\u2019s Centre stated in a report on the impact of those changes that it released just last Friday, the new system will mean, by its estimate, that when the provisions are fully enforced the cut will affect over 50,000 beneficiaries and other people on low incomes. The Wellington People\u2019s Centre estimates that: \u201CThe axing of the special benefit will take $50 million out of the pockets of the poorest families in its first year of operation.\u201D This saving is then being passed on in fact to some of our better-off families through the extension at the upper-income end of Working for Families, as was discussed in the House earlier this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIs it fair that beneficiaries are losing out while higher-income people get more\u2014and this, on top of the fact that Working for Families discriminates against beneficiaries anyway through the in-work payment? Is this about social justice? Is this helping the 20 percent of our country\u2019s children who are still living in poverty, a vast number of whom are disproportionately in sole parent families and in M\u0101ori and Pasifika families? I think not. It is a total disgrace. Unlike the benefit cuts in 1991, which so many of us fought against openly, even some Labour MPs if I remember rightly, these new cuts are happening off the radar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe absurdly complex nature of New Zealand\u2019s ramshackle benefit system is allowing that covert slashing of hardship assistance to happen, and I call on Labour MPs, and the Minister, to look into the realities of what this will mean. Any members with a social conscience should be helping us to persuade the Minister that he must act quickly to ensure that real discretion is retained in the system for all beneficiaries who need it, not just some of them, and that tens of thousands of people will not be left in an even worse situation than they would be under the rules pertaining up until 4 days ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EA second major area of concern highlighted by the review process has been a big question for us about where the ministry is going with its work on moving towards what it has been calling now the single core benefit. The select committee was told that the ministry expected the single core benefit to be available from 2007. However, there are still many questions about how precisely this will work, about the extent to which it will really get rid of the current complexity of arrangements\u2014up to 35 different income support arrangements\u2014and whether it will mean the de facto cutting of benefits for some categories of beneficiaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhile the ministry keeps saying that no one will be disadvantaged, a statement by the Minister in this week\u2019s Jobs Letter that: \u201CWe are not prepared to say, \u2018Well, sorry, no one will be worse off.\u2019 \u201D, and the projected impact of the loss of the special benefit, do not give me any confidence that the planned new benefit system will maintain even modest benefit levels at the current rates. Again, I think that the people who will most likely be adversely affected are those with disabilities and on invalids benefits who are more likely to be dragged down to unemployment benefit levels, rather than having the reverse occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ERecent concerns raised by people in the blind community are the first signs of what may well happen. It is a great pity that those with profound impairment should have to be like the canaries in the mine when it comes to predicting this particular future. I am glad that I was not the only committee member who stated a hope that no one in need would be disadvantaged under the projected new single core benefit system, but how all this will work, and when, remains a somewhat dubious and dangerous mystery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFinally, a third area of this review I would like to briefly touch on tonight is around the supposed devolution of part of what was formally the Community Employment Group into the Ministry of Social Development, following the Community Employment Group\u2019s demise in 2004-05. At that time we were told that some of the community-based economic development function of the Community Employment Group would be placed into the Ministry of Social Development. As a number of us feared at the time, it appears that in fact no such function has been transferred. What is left is a programme that is about working with local industry to address skill shortages, and something else called Enterprising Communities, which provides funding. That sounds interesting and possibly useful, but I do not think that many groups working at grass roots level\u2014at least, the ones I worked with\u2014know about it. I hope that the department will note the committee\u2019s recommendation that any funding available through that Enterprising Communities scheme should be distributed in a transparent manner and in a way that organisations should know that it exists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EHowever, no matter what value either the Enterprising Communities scheme or the industry partnership programme may have, neither can substitute for the loss of a genuine community economic development function within the Government\u2014a loss that will only become fully felt and understood when unemployment starts seriously rising again, which it inevitably will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party remains committed to working with groups in the community economic sector to try to ensure that one day we will once again have a viable community economic development function within government, as we should, if we are to hold our head high in communities around the world that work in this area and Governments in places like Canada, which have made tremendous steps forward. We have now fallen even further behind, which is a real disgrace. I hope that some of us here in this House will one day work together to restore a community economic development function to government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002267bc83207c7349bbaefc67b3b4735cf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267bc83207c7349bbaefc67b3b4735cf0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, before I go into the detail of some of the comments that have been raised as part of the financial review, I would like to acknowledge the highly professional and successful efforts of the staff of the Ministry of Social Development. I guess it is a testimony to their professionalism that the chief executive, Peter Hughes, and one of his senior managers, Mr Craig, are here this evening. No one should be surprised at the commitment those senior managers put into delivering absolutely critical outcomes for our community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI also want to thank the front-line staff of Work and Income, and the ministry in general, for their professionalism and their dedication to the people of this country. Whether they be in family and community services, in policy areas, or in management, the commitment to reintegration of previously separate Government functions has been extraordinary. It is because of the professional, thorough, and cost-effective way that the Ministry of Social Policy and Work and Income has been reintegrated, that Cabinet has made such a positive decision in respect of the further reintegration of Child, Youth and Family Services with the ministry. I am sure we can all look forward to the successes that will flow from that decision, and the same sorts of savings in efficiency\u2014but certainly not in funding, because that was never intended as part of the decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI think, also, that management is reflected in the most successful delivery in all sorts of areas that we have seen in recent times\u2014some have been announced; some are in policy development. I refer in particular to the concept and development of the new service model, the extraordinarily extensive work in benefit reform that previous speakers have referred to\u2014and, as in the case of Ms Bradford, they will clearly be involved in some of that policy development\u2014and most important, in the Working for Families package, which was so well received last year and over the last weekend by so many members of our community. I will come back to that in a little while. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI would like first of all, though, to go to the questions about early interventions that were raised by the National Party speaker. The ministry began work on early interventions in 2004-05 and developed a cross-sectoral strategy to improve outcomes for children. Those early intervention programmes are a comprehensive, coordinated support system for families and, most important, the strategies build on other Government initiatives that are simultaneous, such as early childhood education and social assistance in health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe ministry is currently evaluating the take-up and effectiveness of all those programmes. Some of them have been detailed in the report so I will not waste the House\u2019s time with that. But the key factor is that over 4 years, expenditure of $43.7 million has been allocated towards those initiatives. Nothing could state more convincingly or powerfully the commitment of this Government to breaking some of the cycles of violence in our community through early interventions\u2014both early in the age of the problem and early in the life of those involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIn terms of the issues raised about debt management, it is important to separate the two streams. The first one is recoverable assistance, which is loans approved for costs that have to be repaid. These debts have increased\u2014I guess reflecting the increased costs of living and unplanned expenditure. However, the second stream, overpayments of benefit entitlements and so on, has remained stable over the last 4 years and, in fact, it reduced slightly, by about $8 million, between 2001 and 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EPolicy changes in respect of the Working for Families package will make a huge difference. I think we already acknowledge that in the extraordinary media coverage of families, young and old, that are responding to the recently discovered reality over the last few days as to what Working for Families means for them. Clearly, those initiatives will make absolutely enormous differences to beneficiaries with families, by assisting in reducing the demand for that sort of recoverable assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI would like also to talk more expansively about the comments that were made about growth in sickness and invalids benefits. This is an important focus area through the whole of the OECD. In the last year to December the growth rate of sickness and invalids benefits in this country fell to 2.7 percent. Those benefits grew at a rate of 69 percent and 84 percent respectively under the National Government. That is not to mention that unemployment at the same time in the 1990s grew 11 percent. This Government is getting on top of a trend that was clearly out of control under National. It was the National Government that in 1995 introduced the stress and depression categories, so it is pretty rich for those members to criticise, as they do, the fact that people are succumbing to stress and depression, and receive benefits as part of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe thing that saddens me the most about this is the constant attack by the National Party on doctors. Work and Income staff who assess applications for sickness and invalids benefits are absolutely reliant on the professional medical opinion of clinicians. Work and Income staff are not doctors, and they operate under strict instructions that it is the role of medical professionals to determine the state of a client\u2019s health as it might relate to that client\u2019s benefit application. While I understand it is not unusual for the National Party, and particularly Ms Collins, to attack beneficiaries, I am rather surprised and disappointed she has taken that attack and extended it to medical practitioners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI guess the example of the figures from my own electorate in Dunedin show the clear improvement since Labour took office. Between 1999 and now the total number of people receiving an unemployment benefit in Dunedin has dropped by 4,046. That is a 74 percent drop. Between 1999 and 2005 the total number of people on all benefits\u2014unemployment, domestic purposes, sickness, and invalids\u2014dropped also by 33 percent. That is a decrease of one-third\u20143,870 fewer people are receiving benefits. Can I say to the Opposition, for whom beneficiaries are such an easy target, that behind the statistics\u2014and they are improving all the time under this Government\u2014are the realities of Kiwis getting on with supporting their families, working towards their individual goals, and making real contributions to our communities and local economies. They are the real success stories that we all should be so proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIn the remaining minutes available to me I would like to spend a little time talking about the Working for Families package. Alongside the other changes that I have alluded to and the matters that are discussed in the financial review\u2014reviewed so positively, I must say, by the Social Services Committee\u2014the Working for Families package has to be the single greatest support in this country for young men and women, especially working people, and their children. That package is delivering very welcome targeted tax credits to Kiwi families to help them raise their children. Most people in this House are aware that children deliver extra costs to families, and that is why the targeting is so appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EAround 85,000 more families will benefit from the 1 April changes, as a result of the family tax relief package, and that takes the total to around 350,000 families receiving tax relief in 2006. Almost three in every four New Zealand families with dependent children are entitled to family assistance tax credits as from last Saturday. Almost all families, with children, earning under $70,000 per year will become eligible for family tax relief, and many families earning between $70,000 and $100,000 will also be eligible\u2014at much lower levels, of course. This package is costing an enormous $1.6 billion over its term, and families access their tax credits, which is 90 percent of this income, through the Inland Revenue Department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EFor example, as from last Saturday a family with two children aged 11 and 16, earning $67,000 a year and paying, say, $350 a week on their mortgage will get an extra $68 a week in the hand from their family assistance tax credits. From 1 April next, when there is a further increase in family assistance, that amount will increase by another $20, to $88 week. Contrast that with across-the-board tax cuts, which deliver the highest gains to people with the highest incomes, regardless of whether they have children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EOf course, the new in-work payment will be introduced to provide more support to low and middle income working families with dependent children, to make work pay. Not many people in our community have any doubt about whose policy is the more desirable in these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226dc3911050694283be910debd4d64dd0\u0022\u003EDepartment of Corrections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002298fa2dcf754e456f9b43196416006e9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298fa2dcf754e456f9b43196416006e9f\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E The Law and Order Committee completed its financial review of the Department of Corrections in recent days. Many of the issues that have been raised in recent months were, of course, omitted from that financial review, which covered the period until June 2005. However, two or three very serious issues were canvassed during the financial review of the Department of Corrections, the most significant of which is the considerable overspend on the regional prisons building programme\u2014so much so that the scale of that overspend and of the mismanagement of funds in relation to that overspend is still unclear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIn October 2002 the then chief executive of the department told the then members of the Law and Order Committee that the approximate cost of building those prisons would be $400 million. We discovered, after Budget 2005, and after a further $140 million was requested by the Minister of Corrections in order to deal with the overspend, that in fact the prison building project had had an overrun of $490 million\u2014almost double the original amount budgeted by the department. Only one person in this Chamber can be feeling the pain of that overspend more than the Minister of Corrections. That person is the Minister of Finance, who has to continue to find a way to fund the mismanagement of this department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI think, though, that the most astonishing fact about the capital overspend is that under questioning in Parliament, the Minister of Corrections, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, assured Parliament in the first instance that the collaborative working arrangements had been signed off at $890 million. He then had to return to the House and state that that was not the case\u2014that the arrangements had not been signed off. I would welcome his taking the opportunity tonight to confirm once and for all that they have finally been signed off and that $890 million, most unequivocally, is the final sum that will be spent on those four prisons. The Minister has an opportunity to do that tonight. I hope he takes it, because the public will be waiting for confirmation that this department finally has its act together and can sign those matters off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI have no doubt that my New Zealand First colleague Ron Mark will talk about rehabilitation programmes this evening, and well he should. The Department of Corrections rehabilitation programmes are failing dismally, not only in terms of those who take some of the courses being more likely to reoffend than those who do not, but also, more particularly, in terms of the uptake of the courses, which is far less than satisfactory. The uptake is well away from the numbers the Ombudsman in his report in December 2005 described in gentle terms as being\u2014to paraphrase\u2014hopeless. I think it would be worthwhile for the Minister to assure the House tonight that for the considerable sums of money being spent on those rehabilitation programmes we are seeing those programmes filled, and more particularly seeing programmes whose outcomes ensure that the rehabilitation needs of our prisoners are met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis department is in a shambles. That is the only word to describe it. The issues I have mentioned are only two or three of the matters that were dealt with in the financial review. The public will be aware that since June 2005 many more issues have been raised about the incompetent way this department is managed and the difficult situation in which it is continually put by the appallingly inaccurate statistics on prison forecasts provided to it by the Ministry of Justice\u2014numbers that continue to be wrong every time the Ministry of Justice provides them. That is one area in which I have sympathy with the Department of Corrections. I will not sit here tonight and let the Minister say that the prison building overspend is due to materials and labour market shortages, when of the $140 million recently requested, $57 million was for omissions by the department\u2014a fact that had to be dragged out of the chief financial officer in the committee hearings, when the summary of proceedings handed to the committee members made no mention of that fact at all. I did not think that was even close to being straight with the committee about where the shortfall of funds had emerged from. I look forward to the Minister\u2019s responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4161e2719064440b81cd6d42dc02443\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4161e2719064440b81cd6d42dc02443\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak to the financial review of the Department of Corrections. What an interesting time the Law and Order Committee had! This debate, I have to put on the record, does the work of that committee no justice whatsoever. We have 4 hours to debate the financial reviews of every Government department. Days and days, weeks, and months of work by committees all come down to a 5-minute speech. That is pretty pathetic, given that we tout ourselves as an institution that promotes transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIn the very little time we have, let us hit on the one issue New Zealand First raised. Why did we raise this issue of the rehabilitation programmes and their effectiveness? My antennae went up in 2003-04 in response to a glaring omission in the department\u2019s annual report. No rehabilitation quotient was mentioned in the report, at all. Come the next year, what did we naturally go looking for? We looked for a rehabilitation quotient. We found what we had known all along, what we have known for about the 10 years during which I have been in Parliament, and what we have heard from countless corrections officers and from people who work in the field trying to turn people round\u2014like Dr Pita Sharples, who has done so for years\u2014that the programmes run by the Department of Corrections do not work. We found that for 13 of the 20 programmes being run, at the end of 12 months participants who took part in and actually completed the programme\u2014and that is another story\u2014were more likely to reoffend and more likely to be re-imprisoned than if they had never ever done the course at all. That was the revelation New Zealand First put on the table. It was astounding, and actually a breath of fresh air, to hear the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections, Mr Barry Matthews, say that that was true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that since we raised that in the select committee, discussed it, and pointed to the figures, two of those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227560b420d0c643ab81a0b77354b40728\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but the time for this debate has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022894d780778294416af1c6a3e7d170c2e\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 8, and schedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000628\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000629\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ccad5a37dbe4a79ba2ef8e364ebee9e\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2004/05 Financial Review) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6876bc34c464904a4d4eea490794926\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00223f3cc5076534441a8700b943c31af0d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f3cc5076534441a8700b943c31af0d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2004/05 Financial Review) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291506eb315414472ad63c95de4154da1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2004/05 Financial Review) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000633\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f1cb0b07bb644d085058bfe6613a227\u0022\u003EJudicature Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca27ab12e192428a899ec836c4fe486e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000636\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 28 March.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e4fab099cdb41c7bf7869c825f4699a\u0022\u003EPart 2  Further amendments to principal Act (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00222c12fff09ee142bc982d5e7cf44570fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c12fff09ee142bc982d5e7cf44570fe\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I remind members of the instruction for the Committee to have the power to consider and, if it thinks fit, to adopt the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 21.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 21 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fffa500063da4b2abd25e4c578bfe912\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1e077147e8f4036a40cbaee242ba36c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1e077147e8f4036a40cbaee242ba36c\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to talk about the way this bill fails to deal with the real issues around the Court of Appeal. The truth is that our court system has grown on an ad hoc basis, by adding bits here and fixing bits there, and the current Government is guilty of participating in that. It made a major reform\u2014an important reform\u2014a few years ago by establishing the Supreme Court. One would think that the opportunity would be taken with a Judicature Amendment Bill to actually fix up the court system. For instance, the overall structure of the Court of Appeal could have been looked at. It has been analysed by the Law Commission, which has done a report on it. The work of the commission could have been taken into account, and some coherence could have been brought into our appeal system. Has that opportunity been taken? I say to my colleagues that the answer is no. The Government might think it good enough to put up little bills to tweak things a bit and do a little repair job, but the truth is that Parliament\u2019s legislative time is scarce. We expect the Government to take a serious approach and bring to Parliament what I would regard as a proper bill that deals with the issues around the Court of Appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Court of Appeal typically sits in Wellington and Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227710debea4684adab9040533cc1cf45a\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re joking!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f141b2c90104d4ba462edb628b59721\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it does, for the information of that Associate Minister of Justice. But there is no permanent facility in Auckland. Again, it is an ad hoc facility. There is no practice except what has grown informally, if you will, for the court always to sit in panels of three. Most of the time it does, but from time to time it sits as a full court of five. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOne has to ask oneself whether that is logical or sensible now that we have a Supreme Court. It was sensible and appropriate when all appeals went to the Privy Council, because more often than not the final appeal was in New Zealand. Most people would not appeal to the Privy Council, for a variety of reasons\u2014including costs, distance, difficulty in getting cases there, and so on. So a full court of five, such as in the Ng\u0101ti Apa decision, was appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ELet us be honest, the Ng\u0101ti Apa decision on the foreshore and seabed was seen by the country and this Parliament to be the final decision. Of course, in theory the Crown could have appealed to the Privy Council. It did not. The Government took the path of legislation, which, in effect, denied a proper hearing and consideration of the merits at what was the true, final appellate court for New Zealand at that time\u2014the Privy Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EAs a matter of practice\u2014and I say this to the Government\u2014lessons should be learnt from that experience. When there are highly contentious issues and people are part way through a court process, the appropriate procedure is to go all the way through the court process so as not to deny those people their right to be heard in the courts. Only if that does not work out should the legislature and the executive consider legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhen the Supreme Court was established it was imperative to change the approach and look at the Court of Appeal in quite a different light\u2014as a true intermediate court that should, in my view, sit in panels of three. It should be permanently established in Auckland, with a panel of three there, and permanently established in Wellington, also with a panel of three. The Government has certainly appointed enough judges to achieve that outcome. It could actually do it. That is one good aspect of this legislation. But I have to ask the Minister why the Government has failed to really get to grips with this issue and produce to Parliament a substantial Judicature Bill that would actually deal with the overall structure of the appellate courts of New Zealand. That is what is required now in our court structure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc16901592214f539afc358246670a61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc16901592214f539afc358246670a61\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I take up the challenge that the previous speaker, Dr Wayne Mapp, has thrown down and respond to the question he asked with regard to why, in this legislation, the Government has not dealt more broadly with issues of significant concern. This is the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3), and I start by asking what happened to the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 2). Where has the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 1) gone? I suspect the answer is that those bills just vanished into the ether. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe reason the Government has not dealt in a more broad-brush way with these issues of real concern relating to the efficiency and effectiveness of the court is twofold. First, the Government simply does not know what to do. Instead, it is following this piecemeal, ad hoc approach with no conspicuous success. Second, the Government decides that the very best thing to do with bills that touch on critical aspects relating to the legal system is to send them off to select committees that have no subject responsibility for the work in hand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo it was that on 21 June 2005 the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) was sent to the Government Administration Committee. I do not doubt that the members on that committee are fine souls. Indeed, the membership of this committee comprised none other than Shane Ardern, H V Ross Robertson, Brian Connell, Russell Fairbrother, Sandra Goudie, and the Hon Dover Samuels. There was no legal skill at all\u2014no background legal knowledge\u2014on the committee to undertake the task entrusted of it. So, it was not in a position to propose any wide-ranging, far-reaching provisions. That is to be seen by the very minor amendments that were made to this legislation as it has come back to Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThis legislation is substantially about three things, but the primary one\u2014the one that Dr Mapp has attached importance to\u2014is an issue relating to the constitution of the Court of Appeal and increasing the maximum number of permanent Court of Appeal judges from seven to nine, including the president. But there are a raft of issues that could have been dealt with at the same time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EA hot issue at the moment, as some on the Government side will know, concerns the retiring age for judges. That current age is 68. It has been suggested that the age be increased to 72. In the Supreme Court, acting judges can be appointed up to the age of 75. Quite clearly it would be appropriate to use the resource associated with judges serving longer periods\u2014provided that they were fit and of sound mind, and a large number of people at the ages running up to 75 assuredly are. That is just one issue that could have been dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EAnother issue that is a significant issue and of concern to the public at large, concerns the actual process of appointment. For a very short time\u2014a few months\u2014David Parker held the post of Attorney-General in the present Labour Government. But he was not permitted to continue to serve in that role and stood down. We now have, in the shape of the Deputy Prime Minister, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen again responsible for senior judicial appointments. He does not have any skill or knowledge in that area at all; his background is an economic historian. He is not in a position to make sound judgments as to who should or should not be a judge. So, he just becomes a cipher of the Ministry of Justice, blindly accepting the recommendations offered up to him and not prepared at all to consult with other parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI think that is a tragedy. Whilst perhaps it does not matter in respect of positions that are less senior, it does matter in respect of the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court. For the transparency of the appointments process, for selecting people of undoubted merit, and so as not to cause challenge, one would have thought that a Government that prides itself on consultation in some areas would take the bold step of consultation in that particular area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00221c3e8924f6af400386753916b5c70b16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c3e8924f6af400386753916b5c70b16\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E This bill really reinforces the common theme over the past few weeks of access to justice. Firstly, the bill increases the number of Court of Appeal judges. Why do we need to do that? We need to do that for several reasons. When the Supreme Court was created, the Court of Appeal judges were taken out of that jurisdiction and dropped into the Supreme Court, so the Court of Appeal was then under-resourced. We can also argue that we need the increased number of judges, because if we look at the appalling crime statistics we see that more people will be in the court system, so we need more judges to actually deal with those matters. The 2005 crime statistics that were recently released show that violent crime is up 6.9 percent, grievous assaults are up 13 percent, homicide is up 27 percent, intimidation and threats are up 11 percent, robberies are up 12 percent, sex crimes are up 6.4 percent, and burglaries are up. It is no wonder that we will need more resources in our judicial system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill deals with appeals. There are no longer appeals to the Privy Council because this Government abolished that right. We have to ask ourselves why this Government abolished that right of appeal to the Privy Council. Why did this Government deprive New Zealanders, without their mandate or consent, of their right to appeal to the Privy Council and of their right to avail themselves of the best legal brains in Britain\u2014rights that did not cost New Zealanders one single cent? The same cannot be said of the Supreme Court. Why was no thought given at that time to the fact that New Zealand is small? It is like a village\u2014a wonderful village, but a village none the less\u2014where it is not uncommon for our Supreme Court judges to have to excuse themselves from hearing a case because they may have heard it at a lower level or may know one or other of the appellants or participants. In fact, one of our High Court judges has recently been challenged in a forestry case because he had an interest in forestry. New Zealand is small\u2014very small\u2014but despite all this our right to appeal to the Privy Council was unilaterally abolished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EPart 2 deals with appeals. The decision of the High Court on appeal from an inferior court is final unless a party obtains leave to appeal against that decision to the Court of Appeal, or directly to the Supreme Court in exceptional circumstances. One of the very purposes of the ability to appeal a lower court decision is to avoid miscarriages of justice and to ensure that justice is, indeed, achieved. As the famous quote states, it is better that 10 guilty persons escape than one innocent one suffer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt is especially timely when dealing with appeals to refer to the report of Sir Thomas Thorp entitled Miscarriages of Justice. From that report it is clear that New Zealand lags behind the United Kingdom and other countries in terms of having the procedures in place to deal with miscarriages of justice. In fact, Justice Thorp suggests that as many as 20 people may be wrongly incarcerated in New Zealand prisons. That is 20 people too many. We must have confidence in the integrity of our legal system, and the appellate process is part and parcel of that integrity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThirdly, this bill deals with how the judgments of the Court of Appeal are delivered, by providing that the delivery of a judgment of the Court of Appeal may be affected in any manner and by any number of judges provided for by the rules. At present under the Court of Appeal Rules a judgment of the Court of Appeal on appeal must be delivered on behalf of the court, in open court, by no fewer than two permanent judges of that court. No similar provisions apply to the High Court\u2014the High Court Rules lay down requirements for the giving of judgments, orally or in writing, but the actual delivery can be done by the registrar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Law Society\u2019s submission on this point suggests that the Court of Appeal may wish to adopt the same procedure as the High Court so that judgments are given by the judges but can be delivered through the registrar. We could interpret clause 5, and namely the words \u201Cand by any number of Judges\u201D, as actually implying that at least one judge must be there to deliver the judgment. At present, at least two Court of Appeal judges must be present, but the courtroom may be empty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002221918c3b9f334489be5e40a03cce8bab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221918c3b9f334489be5e40a03cce8bab\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to include the comments I made earlier today about the importance of the Government getting to grips with the structure of our appellate system. It is clear, as my colleague indicated, that we have had Judicature Amendment bills Nos 1 and 2, and this particular one is No. 3. Not one of them is substantive. Each of them does valuable things, and National will be supporting them, but when the Government made such a significant reform as establishing the Supreme Court, which my colleague Kate Wilkinson has just referred to, one would think there would have been an obligation upon it to take a broader view and to fix up\u2014as I would put it\u2014the overall appellate structure of the New Zealand judicial system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E I am also aware that my colleague Mr Chris Finlayson, who is a highly experienced advocate both in the High Court and in the appellate jurisdiction, has said that what is really needed, and what Parliament should be debating, is a courts restructuring bill that would really deal with those issues in depth. It would properly establish, for instance, the relationship between the M\u0101ori Appellate Court and other courts, and the relationship generally between courts of specific jurisdiction\u2014such as the Environment Court, the Employment Court, and the M\u0101ori Land Court\u2014and courts of general jurisdiction. That sort of work has not been done. I admit that that is a very big project, and I suspect that it would take some significant time, after proper consultation with the Law Commission and the Ministry of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EBut a more narrowly focused project would concern the appellate courts themselves. Frankly, the country deserved that at the time when the Supreme Court was established. I am one of those who recognise that the establishment of the Supreme Court has been a development in the New Zealand legal system from which there is no turning back, and I acknowledge that the court has jurists of international repute on it. The fact that Sir Kenneth Keith was appointed to the International Court of Justice, in a highly competitive international vote at the United Nations, demonstrates the respect and regard that he was held in as a jurist of international quality. I can think of other judges in New Zealand who in the past or, indeed, in the present, meet those tests, so I am not one of those who say that the shift to the Supreme Court means that we get some sort of inferior justice. In any event, that argument is long passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe matter at the moment that the Minister should be turning his mind to is how we reorganise the balance of the appellate system to ensure we get a fundamentally more coherent approach. I mentioned in my first speech the fact that it has become a practice\u2014although not established by legislation\u2014that the Appellate Court sits in Auckland, on essentially an ad hoc basis and always as a court of three. I personally think\u2014but others will have different views, of course\u2014that given that Auckland has one-third of New Zealand\u2019s population, and that it certainly generates at least one-third of appellate cases, there is a very substantial case for there to be two, or maybe even three, appellate courts in New Zealand. There should certainly be one in Auckland and one in Wellington, and there is possibly a case for one in Christchurch\u2014I remain to be convinced about that, however. But it can be seen that we have not even considered those kinds of issues, and it does not appear that the ministry has properly considered them. Certainly, some years ago the Law Commission did some work on them, but it was rather overtaken by the events around the Supreme Court. So it seems to me that the Government is missing opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that this 2005-08 Parliament, in terms of its legislative agenda\u2014but not in terms of the politics of the place\u2014is likely to be somewhat quiet, if I can put it like that. The reasons are obvious. In a finely balanced Parliament it is difficult for any Government to construct majorities for legislation. Indeed, as we have seen, and as Barbara Stewart and I can both testify, it is not only the Government that can construct majorities for legislation\u2014certainly at first readings. In an MMP Parliament it is actually possible for parties across the Parliament to construct majorities for legislation on policies they think are important to the nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOne would think that that would give the Government pause for thought, so I ask why it does not use this opportunity to do some repair to what I have referred to in other speeches as the \u201Clegal toolkit of New Zealand\u201D. If we look at our legislation going back many years, we see that that is exactly what the Parliament of 1908 did. It did a superb piece of work in passing a whole lot of legislation, principally commercial but not only that, and lawyers, business people, and citizens benefited enormously from the work of that Parliament. The Sale of Goods Act is its most notable highlight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe point I am making to Minister Barker is that he is faced with a circumstance in this Parliament when he can also repair the legal toolkit. I see this legislation as legislation that fundamentally reflects a lost opportunity\u2014we can tell that, can we not\u2014and I am disappointed to see a bill of this size. As is noted in the appendix, the hearing of evidence took the grand total of 15 minutes, and the consideration, which took 2 hours and 15 minutes, was heard some time ago. I say to the Minister that he should use his ministerial authority, his warrant, and his directive powers vis-\u00E0-vis the Law Commission\u2014he has, after all, one of New Zealand\u2019s most highly trained jurists and a former Prime Minister as head of the Law Commission\u2014to repair the legal toolkit for the benefit of New Zealand. Then, maybe this Minister will still be referred to a hundred years from now as the man who did the important repair job on New Zealand\u2019s legal toolkit. That is the opportunity he has; the question I ask of him is whether he will take that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EClause 2 not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d2b4ec97d1643199a21e52046986c9e\u0022\u003ENew clause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000674\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 21 in his name to new clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000675\u0022\u003Eto add to subclause (2) the following words: \u201C; and 1 or more orders may be made bringing different provisions into force on different dates\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000676\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000677\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 21 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to insert new clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000678\u0022\u003ENew clause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000679\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225786e6d1a2c5475295b3f59e5bc231bf\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de87125f010b4a1f9f3311360f6412ea\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a365f116114f489f97c10c6eba3913e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a365f116114f489f97c10c6eba3913e4\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for clauses 1, 2, and 3 to be taken together as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022282628f41d414c25a93e8e6446d3291c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227787c128876b4c659ec3f71e2a618d5e\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00224afb99a559224d7cbd29b9fdc6bd11bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224afb99a559224d7cbd29b9fdc6bd11bc\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very simple bill, and I do not think too much time needs to be spent on it. It deals with an amendment to the functions section of the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Act. The National Party says it makes perfect sense, and indeed it is necessary for section 12 of the Act to be amended so that the decisions of the Supreme Court can be published in the New Zealand Law Reports by the Council of Law Reporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI wish to make only two observations. The first deals with proposed new subsection (6), which provides that the Chief Justice may authorise any person, firm, or company to publish reports of decisions of the Supreme Court. That is a rather odd provision, and I would have thought that it was both inappropriate and unnecessary. The Council of Law Reporting should be responsible for publishing law reports, and it seems anomalous that a judge, even one as senior and as important as the Chief Justice, should be able to authorise other persons to publish decisions of her court if she thinks it appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E The next point I make relates to the proposed typescript amendments in my name, dated 31 March. These amendments try to raise matters that were dealt with by Mr Harawira from the M\u0101ori Party and Mr Paraone from New Zealand First about the apparent gap in the legislation dealing with decisions of the M\u0101ori Land Court and the M\u0101ori Appellate Court. I confess that when one thinks about it, on the face of it the reports of both those very important courts do appear to have been overlooked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI want to say something about the M\u0101ori Appellate Court, which performs a very important role in our justice system. Indeed, as set out in the Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993, it is the equivalent of the High Court. Under section 58A of that legislation, an appeal from the M\u0101ori Appellate Court goes to the Court of Appeal and, in exceptional cases, it goes to the Supreme Court. So we are dealing with a major court in the system. Its decisions are of great importance, and they need to be recorded somewhere. They are not recorded anywhere at the present time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ELet me tell members about one of the most interesting decisions that has been through our court system in recent years. In 1990, pursuant to a jurisdiction conferred on it by section 7A of the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975, the M\u0101ori Appellate Court was required to determine the boundaries of Ng\u0101i Tahu. A judgment dated early 1990 established that the boundaries of Ng\u0101i Tahu ran from Kahurangi Point on the West Coast to Parinui o Whiti on the east coast. That decision spawned a great deal of litigation. Immediately after that decision, a disgruntled party petitioned the Privy Council for special leave. When the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement legislation was introduced in the late 1990s, an action was commenced in the High Court to set aside the decision of the M\u0101ori Appellate Court. That decision has been the subject of two petitions for special leave to appeal to the Privy Council. The substantive appeal to the Privy Council will be heard in July this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ETherefore, there have been a number of major cases in the High Court, Court of Appeal, and Privy Council on the M\u0101ori Appellate Court decision of 1990. Most of them have been reported in the New Zealand Law Reports, but the decision that spawned all the litigation\u2014the very important M\u0101ori Appellate Court decision of 1990\u2014is reported nowhere. It is found in a minute book. I say that is insulting to the M\u0101ori Appellate Court, and it is insulting to M\u0101ori. That is why my amendments provide for the inclusion of M\u0101ori Appellate Court decisions in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002266b13fc4264a4c7b813b24208719ca0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266b13fc4264a4c7b813b24208719ca0f\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I want to cover some of the ground that has been traversed by Mr Finlayson, because he makes an interesting point in respect of the amendment he has moved. I accept from the outset his contention that judgments of the M\u0101ori Land Court and M\u0101ori Appellate Court should be published and accessible. Having seen the amendment, I spoke with my officials and was advised that the subject has a very chequered history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EA royal commission in 1980 recommended that the decisions of the M\u0101ori Land Court and the M\u0101ori Appellate Court should be made available on an ongoing basis and be published continuously. It seems that from there the matter was picked up by the Department of M\u0101ori Affairs. It published a document called Tai Whati, which covered selected decisions. This publication carried on for some time and was eventually picked up by LexisNexis. If anybody wanted to go back prior to this they had to go to the work of Chief Judge Morrison, who compiled a 1960 digest going all the way back to 1958. So there have been several attempts to do something about the publication of these decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI am pleased to advise the Committee that the Ministry of Justice has serious work under way in this area. I am advised that within 6 months we should have completed some work for the publication of M\u0101ori Appellate Court decisions. They are currently being formatted and collated, and will be forwarded to the judges for vetting. So we will have an ongoing process there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8fb033893ff41cdbed2fafabb54c652\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Does that cover historical cases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e224f553fc428082113a500508b0e4\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Some of them will be historical, yes. We will have a series and a sequence that we can build on. We take the issue that Mr Finlayson raises very seriously and we will make sure that these decisions are available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EWith regard to the M\u0101ori Land Court, the situation is not quite as simple as that. I am advised that work is under way, but it is not quite as well advanced because of some differing issues. One of the issues that needs to be resolved is that the M\u0101ori Land Court deals with a number of matters relating to whakapapa. A lot of that information is available from other sources as well, but the M\u0101ori Land Court makes other comments in its decisions about relationships, and so on. There are concerns that if those comments are published on the Internet, then people will feel a bit more concerned about them. So we want to make sure that the way in which the decisions are published is respectful of the issues being dealt with, but that the decisions are also accessible in terms of the information they provide. I hope to have a time frame on that of about 12 to 18 months away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI make the point to Mr Finlayson, and to the Committee, that work on the issue he has raised is under way and that we have a suitable format. We think this format will be better than simply having these decisions published by the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting, because of a range of other factors. The first point Mr Finlayson contends\u2014and I accept\u2014is that the decisions should be accessible. We will do that; I just think that the Ministry of Justice\u2019s vehicle for doing that will be preferable. I have spoken to a number of parties in the House and have explained to them that I will be recommending voting against Mr Finlayson\u2019s amendment\u2014not because I am opposed to the substance of it, but because we already have work under way to do the same job, and that seems to be generally acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe last point I would make is that this Government has been very concerned to ensure that people have access to information. We have put a lot of M\u0101ori Land Court information online for people to look at, in terms of the court\u2019s decisions. I announced that move last year and I can tell members that that resource has been used quite extensively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI am well aware that there is a great deal of interest in this area\u2014in decisions and information\u2014and that the Ministry of Justice needs to do its job better. We are making it do its job better by ensuring that the information is accessible, and we are doing a good job on that. I hope to be able to demonstrate within the next 12 to 18 months that we have made a significant leap forward again in terms of accessibility of information about the M\u0101ori Land Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0b799ef080b4700a289dded5814f258\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0b799ef080b4700a289dded5814f258\u0022\u003EMARK BLUMSKY (National):\u003C/span\u003E Wild horses could not keep me away from the Chamber tonight. To be able to speak to the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill is the highlight of my, so far, short parliamentary career. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EThis is my first legal bill. My colleagues Mr Richard Worth, Chris Finlayson, Wayne Mapp, and Kate Wilkinson are very articulate and knowledgable, and have shown it. They can speak on legal matters at great length. A small bill like this generates hours of discussion from them, and I suppose they get used to doing that when they charge by the hour, as they would have done in the past. I have some claim to legal fame, however. I am married to a lawyer and have undertaken pillow talk to prepare for my speech tonight. So I want to thank my colleagues for their fine speeches on the second reading of the bill, because they gave me a great heads-up on the substance and issues surrounding it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EI am pleased to stand here tonight and say that National does support this bill. Unfortunately, in my short time here in the House, that has hardly ever been the case. In fact, the other day, we could not even agree on a debate to debate the introduction of a bill. That was a bill we had not even seen. It was a pity, because the bill was on local government and it was important to me, but it made local government look like a real afterthought. Debating a bill we had not seen was like doing a book review off the back page, or like doing a TV review off the trailer\u2014an example of very poor Government. But let us go back to the matter at hand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003ENational supports the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill, and rightly so. The New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Act came into being in 1938, and in 68 years do not things change? After that 68 years we now have the Supreme Court, which has been added to the list of courts the council has the primary right to publish decisions from. Gosh, in 1938 there was no mention in the Act of a Supreme Court, because at that time people did not think, or could not even believe, that New Zealand would lose access to the Privy Council and end up with a Supreme Court. In fact, if people had been asked in the year 2002, when the Supreme Court legislation was introduced, they would have said no\u2014no to the fact that the Government was ending 160 years of New Zealanders\u2019 rights to appeal to the Privy Council. There was great unease about that major constitutional change, and great unease that such a change was taking place so easily. It was a tragedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EI can now also understand the importance of having a complete reporting body. There is a danger that if this work were split into multiple parts, there would be multiple publications. A complete picture and understanding of the whole is important. New Zealand needs the New Zealand Law Reports to be authoritative. Lawyers refer to these reports. They want to see how law develops and to find out just what the distinguishing facts behind decisions were. So it is important that the whole is kept as a complete picture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EAs mentioned in clause 3, I also see a real benefit in the authorisation of publication in other specialist law reports or other occasionally produced publications. In 1972 there were two volumes of reports; now there are four each year\u2014plenty of reading. But sometimes information and interpretations are needed earlier than those four volumes of the New Zealand Law Reports can deliver them. So I do see a role for other publications to deliver the information in a speedier form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EI also like especially the provision in this bill whereby the New Zealand Law Society may authorise alternative persons, firms, or companies to publish reports if the council fails to publish its reports within a reasonable time and at a reasonable cost. Is it not important that even the New Zealand Law Reports has a pressure on performance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EI note that the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill was referred to the Government Administration Committee on 17 May 2005, and that there was one submission. Not too many wanted to argue on this one. It was hard work for the committee to come to a consideration\u2014not! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EGosh, it is very different from the bills I have that are in front of the select committee I am on now, like the Manukau City Council\u2019s double act on prostitution reform and graffiti. The reading of the graffiti legislation, one would suggest by definition, would not be quite as legally challenging, but if one could manage to read the graffiti, I am sure it would be just as worthwhile. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003EI commend to members the continued passage of this amazingly important bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcceb6806ec2451aaa046385c3d18ec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcceb6806ec2451aaa046385c3d18ec1\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Some may not consider this bill to be of much importance, some such as my colleague Mr Finlayson take a keen interest in it, and others will not think that this is a vital area for the State to be deliberating on. In fact, if we read the Government Administration Committee\u2019s report, we see that the hearing of evidence on this bill took only 15 minutes. One submission was received, and the consideration took a total of 25 minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ESo why is there not more interest in such a riveting, albeit not lengthy, bill? What does the legislation purport to do? Well, it produces the New Zealand Law Reports, which is the authoritative set of key judgments of New Zealand\u2019s higher courts: the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and now the Supreme Court\u2014and, interestingly enough, the Land Valuation Tribunal. I have to say that after 26 years as a lawyer in practice, I do not know of anyone who has ever appeared before that tribunal. I also say that I have spent comparatively little time delving into the detail of the New Zealand Law Reports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI have to ask how many times decisions of the Land Valuation Tribunal have been referred to. The Land Valuation Tribunal is a specialist tribunal that deals with matters arising from a number of Acts, including matters to do with land valuations\u2014surprisingly enough\u2014and titles. This tribunal is comprised of a chairperson, who is a District Court judge, and two registered valuers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EBut is it more important to record the decisions of the Land Valuation Tribunal than those of the Birdlings Flat Land Titles Commissioner? This commissioner also deals with titles, albeit limited to Birdlings Flat land, which is in Canterbury\u2014Crusader country, in case members need awareness of that. But the Birdlings Flat Land Titles Commissioner is also listed on the Ministry of Justice website as a tribunal. Why are the Land Valuation Tribunal decisions considered more important and more deserving of being reported in the New Zealand Law Reports than the decisions\u2014I am sure they are numerous\u2014of the Birdlings Flat Land Titles Commissioner? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe have many specialist tribunals in New Zealand, and the Land Valuation Tribunal is but one. But only the Land Valuation Tribunal has been singled out for this specialist treatment. Of course, many of the decisions of the other tribunals are recorded, but not under the auspices of the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting. There is every opportunity for inconsistency of standards between the various tribunals. Why not include in this bill the decisions of the Liquor Licensing Authority\u2014that authority also comprises a District Court judge plus three members\u2014the Environment Court, or, as my colleague Mr Finlayson said, the M\u0101ori Appellate Court? They are increasingly important court decisions, they are often technical, and they can have a huge impact on future developments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWith the continued delay in amending the Resource Management Act, it is even more important for the Environment Court that its decisions are reported properly and accurately. But the decisions of the Environment Court are not the responsibility of the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting, and again one would have to ask why. I am sorry to go back to it, but what singles out the Land Valuation Tribunal decisions as being more important than the Environment Court ones? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Council of Law Reporting is the body responsible for producing this official series of reports. High-quality reporting of legal judgments is an absolute must. In New Zealand, where our legal system is based on statute law and case law, it is absolutely imperative that the case law is authoritative, of a high quality, accurate, reliable, and consistent. That case law is reported in the New Zealand Law Reports. Those cases set the precedents on which later cases rely. They must be right. It is extremely important that we have an official series of law reports. They assist the lawyers, they assist the judges, and they assist the public to gain access to key court decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThis bill is technical; it is a machinery-type bill. Although there may be some questions raised about it, and about the reasons why some tribunal decisions are included and some are not, at the end of the day it is sensible to include Supreme Court decisions in the New Zealand Law Reports. It is important to maintain the accuracy, integrity, consistency, and reliability of judgments. National supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022776065b848734662bd9585532ab4a361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022776065b848734662bd9585532ab4a361\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E We have indeed been fortunate tonight to hear contributions in a substantial and an insightful way in connection with the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill, and useful references to the Land Valuation Tribunal have been made by the previous speaker. I echo the comment made by Mark Blumsky that one of the issues touching law reporting is the delay between the delivery of the judgment in the relevant court and the publication of that judgment. That has spawned a number of specialist reports in which the standard of reporting is often quite uneven. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EOther speakers have spoken about what this legislation does, and they have also made the point that the Government Administration Committee did not feel unduly burdened by this bill so was able to deal with it both robustly and quickly. That is of little wonder because, of course, none of the members on the committee have legal qualifications. I believe it wrong in principle that legislation with a high level of legal content should be considered by committees such as the Government Administration Committee, which have subject areas of expertise far removed from such legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E One of the issues that arises with legislation of this type is the question of why we should have law reports, and Kate Wilkinson touched on that issue very briefly in her comments. It is all to do with a Law 101 doctrine called the rule of stare decisis. In common law countries such as New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom, court opinions are legally binding under that rule. It is a Latin code phrase for the doctrine of precedent\u2014that is, courts within a hierarchy will follow decisions made higher up in that hierarchy, and those decisions are binding on them. That is why the publication of such opinions is important: it is so that everyone\u2014lawyers, judges, laymen, and the media\u2014can find out what the law is, as declared by the judges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would like to follow a different line from earlier speakers, and just for a moment talk about some aspects of history and comparison in order to put the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting in context. Of course, this bill of 2006 is amending provisions in old legislation going back to 1938. There is not much law on the stocks dating from 1938, so it is right to say it is old legislation. If we look at what is going on as a matter of history in other countries, then this legislation is patterned very much on that of the United Kingdom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn England, reports were initially compiled in a rather haphazard fashion by private entrepreneurs. The situation was not helped by the tradition among English judges of delivering opinions orally, and of not distributing written copies. So the quality of the reports usually depended on the shorthand skills of whoever was taking notes. That is why it became an issue for those who followed those matters to form judgments on the merit of a particular set of private reports, by reference to the quality of those who were tasked to sit in court and record the comments as they fell from the judge\u2019s breast. So what happened in the United Kingdom in 1865 was that the non-profit Incorporated Council of Law Reporting for England and Wales was founded, and in the United Kingdom it has certainly become the dominant publisher of reports. It has compiled most of the best available copies of pre-1866 cases into the English Reports. When lawyers cite cases in court, the issue for them today is still that judges prefer particular reports over others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the United States a similarly chaotic situation prevailed up to the mid-19th century, when the United States Supreme Court and many states of the United States began to publish official reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 3) with amendment and the New Zealand Council of Law Reporting Amendment Bill without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200604047948a521555e42829a36a1cff500d813000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"