"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c7b4bb86e454964981e7d8a5c566532\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 May 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226823aa375c4c409bad72850262e3197b\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 May 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002298fc1fa6ee04453f9a8fe9e948b71bc7\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e47e136bd3d41e8badfe02c342cdcc2\u0022\u003EIndia\u2014Chhattisgarh Legislative Assembly Delegation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbbeba1805204b9db7057f85e3ac6bca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbbeba1805204b9db7057f85e3ac6bca\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite members to welcome a parliamentary delegation from the Chhattisgarh Legislative Assembly, India, led by Shri Pandey Prem Prakash, Speaker of the Assembly, which is present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5b8ade167454c04bdfddff595d1ebbc\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5ad9b3b4da14d7a94a543a5d7dcf4f0\u0022\u003ETelevision New Zealand\u2014Former Chief Executive\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00227e3ba28f855e4a9093d9a8ed38e0d5bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e3ba28f855e4a9093d9a8ed38e0d5bd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to advise the House that I have received the following letter from the Chairman of Television New Zealand Ltd\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E20 April 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EHon Margaret Wilson\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ESpeaker of the House of Representatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EParliament Buildings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EWellington\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EDear Madam Speaker\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EIn accordance with the order of the House of Representatives of 6 April 2006 I hereby advise that the Board of Television New Zealand Limited formally apologises to the House for the actions it took against Mr Ian Fraser following his appearance before the Finance \u0026amp; Expenditure Committee on 14 December 2005 which the Board acknowledges constituted a contempt of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EYours sincerely\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ECraig Boyce\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EChairman\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI wish to also advise the House that a cheque for $1,000, being the fine that the House ordered the company to pay, has also been received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a5860e4abff4d25ba62dbbfc1e4e6b3\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213087badcc7542f0a1e8567443f0bd83\u0022\u003EQuestion for Written Answer\u2014Reply\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u0022685ada375212460b81f185053a1ccbc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022685ada375212460b81f185053a1ccbc1\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wish to raise a point of order concerning question for written answer No. 04102 2006 to the Minister of Communications. An answer to this question was due on the 28th of last month. After it had failed to meet its deadline, my office emailed the Minister\u2019s office requesting a reply. It is really a very simple question, asking who the authors of a particular report are. The Minister has still failed to reply to that question for written answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad5d7588b6524a6cac7c965f2f6cccff\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I will follow that up straight after this session.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7f5eb790c4c487dba950387dfedd2ea\u0022\u003EPlunketLine\u2014Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022807b48f49830452fbf7b093fce516e9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022807b48f49830452fbf7b093fce516e9a\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave to move without notice a motion calling on the House to support PlunketLine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ab403eec713469fb524e37b72111ff6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that motion. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022439812deb63b4434a3eee0b3f4b7ff0b\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002256223ab52d614aebba1b7d9a02663f20\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3b7ab7a63e845208b2aefb5d353ec48\u0022\u003EOil Prices\u2014Strategy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213f8fff914f04602bc6798830a194e8d\u0022\u003E1. JEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What instructions, if any, has she given her Ministers and her department to develop a strategy for New Zealand\u2019s primary industry, transport, tourism, and trading relationships to adapt to the reality of more expensive and less available oil, in light of her statement of 18 April that the reason for high oil prices is \u201Cbecause we\u2019re probably not too far short of peak production, if we\u2019re not already there\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7cbb9aa3cd245c29054005e93eb4fb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7cbb9aa3cd245c29054005e93eb4fb4\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Ministers and officials are working on how to increase the use of bio-fuels, as well as researching improvements in vehicle fleet efficiency. As well, a New Zealand energy strategy is being developed, and the National Energy Efficiency and Conservation Strategy is being reviewed, and I thank the member for the work she is doing in respect of that. The actual date for peak oil production is a matter of debate but there is no doubt that it will occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d99afcf4fc4b45f09e7219357e6aa6a1\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is she confident that the national energy strategy will take sufficient account of her statement, with which I agree, that oil is not going to get cheaper over the long term, given Treasury\u2019s projection in the December Economic and Fiscal Update that prices will drop to $54 a barrel, from $75 now, after this year and the 2003 projections still on the Ministry of Economic Development\u2019s website that forecast a drop in oil prices to $25 a barrel by 2020 and constant prices thereafter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec478e517c5429481ebca532d84af10\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I think there will be fluctuations around the price, but I have little doubt that the long-term trend will be for the price to go higher. That is because of the huge demand for oil now as a finite resource from the emerging mega-economies of China and India and also the fact that the world\u2019s oil supplies tend to be drawn from rather unstable parts of the world. All those factors are leading great economies like that of the United States to start to think actively about how to move to a post-oil economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebfb085398884899b25cd4a4bfa57c22\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that if cities are to remain viable, investment must shift from new motorways into better public transport, especially electric rail in Auckland and trolley buses in Wellington, and what does her statement about peak oil imply for the economics of a new Transmission Gully motorway at a time when the affordability of private motoring is declining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221408a2bbe3704a4d994199d71a8072ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely agree with the member about the importance of investment in public transport. The investment that has gone in over the last 6\u00BD years is many times what was there before then, and that is the right thing to do. I think for the modern day and age, people want the independence the private vehicle offers, but for the future I think we will see the private vehicle increasingly be powered by sources other than oil.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f242610766439a8e42f6d574f76547\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received any reports that suggest that our current high use of transport fuels, which is growing by nearly 4 percent a year, could be sustained by bio-fuels alone, and what impact would that have on land available for agriculture in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227034ab7f3c6644b39994f4fc22ec26cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not seen reports on that, but I understand from colleagues that the Government is likely to be setting a target around bio-fuels in June. I look forward to that, because I think that will be part of our energy future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9eb939d5b5f4815befe97ebe9e80505\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government consider establishing a process involving both the Government and the private sector to study the work done in Sweden, which plans to cut its reliance on petroleum by 2020, and to plan a similar transition here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225120dd00d07c48439744e44fe01bdc73\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am open to such suggestions. I am well aware of the impetus that Sweden is giving to how to develop a post-oil economy, and it is good to see those kinds of initiatives from offshore now being reported in our own press, and quite fully. I think we do need new initiatives, and I am certainly open to discussing initiatives like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e77d590875f400dbc6cf9b55af7c5e6\u0022\u003ETelevision New Zealand\u2014Former Chairman\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b74c21d6d434ba29e71afdaf4ef88d3\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What expectations, if any, has she conveyed to her Ministers regarding the accountability of Crown company directors to select committees, and what is her response to revelations that the former chairman of Television New Zealand Ltd referred to select committee members as \u201Cbastards\u201D, describing them as the \u201Cenemy\u201D, and urged the withholding of politically damaging information from the committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002267a9ffdf20134a43aa3769cf0b7657cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267a9ffdf20134a43aa3769cf0b7657cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E The Government expects all State-owned enterprises, Crown entities, agencies, and departments to respect the public accountability processes, and that is why I have described the emails as inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e7ae4712864704ad1bacb7f6a6cbab\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that anyone who describes select committee members as \u201Cbastards\u201D and the \u201Cenemy\u201D is unfit to serve on the board of a Crown entity; if so, why does Mr Boyce continue to sit on the board of New Zealand Trade and Enterprise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd4d167b4cbc41c19aa513be1ff372e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to the first part of the question is no. Mr Boyce, of course, was responding after several years of being chair of Television New Zealand, during which time not a single constructive thing about the corporation was said by the National Party Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260bcae9e6d4243dc938c5a1207844907\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept the fundamental proposition that Crown companies like TVNZ have an absolute obligation to account to this Parliament and its select committees; if so, why has her Government retained as a member of a Government-appointed board a man as contemptuous of this Parliament as Mr Boyce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa579d44b594e23bff5302869801cf1\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Boyce has indeed clarified today that he is not contemptuous of the parliamentary process but, rather, of Mr McCully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b68629af10d4532914c1d44d0a66907\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe that it is acceptable for directors appointed by her Government to seek to suppress politically damaging information regarding Dame Ann Hercus because, to use Mr Boyce\u2019s phrase, it \u201Cwould be a disaster for everyone\u201D for the truth to emerge, and can she tell the House just what was the disastrous information that Mr Boyce was so keen to suppress?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f1a2c7dac294c42b2b1943f68bcd0ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, frankly, I cannot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a05e1e667f42b4b737f66077aee5ee\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Prime Minister aware that Television New Zealand director Dame Ann Hercus, a former Labour Cabinet Minister, who kept her office and her Minister\u2019s office closely informed about issues in the TVNZ board, was involved in something that Mr Boyce described as \u201Ca disaster for everyone\u201D; if so, does she accept that both Parliament and the select committee have a right to know just what Dame Ann Hercus was up to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022595d1a85c3e2417898be41e6eeaa8c4d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: In my experience select committees generally have a way of getting to the truth of the issue, but I have to say that Dame Ann Hercus did not keep me apprised of what happened on that board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f4ef9f8ec74bc2a854e7120d87897a\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister know about what Mr Boyce described to Mr Fraser as \u201Cthe mid year stuff between yourself and Ann\u201D, the release of which would be \u201Ca disaster for everyone\u201D; if so, why will she not tell the House about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f96847e47c40c0bd93c6cf78277758\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No; the mind can only boggle at what might have been revealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cec9d818fa149a0ac63c696ca912b25\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Why should anyone in New Zealand\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd8aaa5863cf4c3bab82840b8053bc3d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Questions will be heard in silence, as is the convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa5bda9b68c4fb2b7d58d63c569e68e\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Why would anyone in New Zealand be surprised that a Government-appointed chairperson would seek to dodge parliamentary accountability and withhold sensitive information from the public, when that is exactly what the Government has been doing, from the Prime Minister down, ever since it was elected to office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e65394123194ef592beae517fc8bc89\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the member has been taking dancing lessons, but dancing on the point of that particular pin will only prick his balloon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45bc789bf984fdfbebf4eaa413c6063\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That was not even witty. The point is that the Prime Minister has to address the question, and I ask you to reflect on how, in any way, she attempted to address that question. It actually goes to prove the point of my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022029f69e13d6949beb243671a7ad95419\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in which case, then, the Prime Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c135fd79205433fa8b2997c2bd5068e\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. What you have just said is that Helen Clark as Prime Minister does try to duck accountability in Parliament and does try to withhold information. That is what you have confirmed. What annoys me is that you do not uphold the Standing Orders of this Parliament and require the Prime Minister to address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209772c6ced3c4eb5a408723893a10628\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022602db6ee30794e8e8cced7d743f60323\u0022\u003ESchool Student\u2014Serious Offence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9a453605c5a4594b968c351e21455a1\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What reports, if any, has he received on the possibility of a student attending school after being charged with a serious offence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022da30d5be7a6a4646bbac31d9d262825d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da30d5be7a6a4646bbac31d9d262825d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen and heard a media statement made by Mr Bill English saying a school will be forced to take back a student who is on bail, following serious charges being laid against that student. That report was completely wrong. The report and the member\u2019s subsequent comments have put the school and its families in a very difficult position. As a result, the board of trustees has had to deal with a large number of media inquiries to defend its reputation. If Mr English had taken the simple step of contacting my office, he could have found out the facts for himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b13edc3199c47e98b0698e8a7396387\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What action has he and his ministry taken in these circumstances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c92fe95f12384569b9e58e33f335bcd7\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I was kept up to date throughout the weekend with developments. The Ministry of Education worked with the police and the school over the weekend. The ministry helped the school prepare to deal with the media attention brought about by Mr English\u2019s comments. The ministry\u2019s Group Special Education people assisted the school on Monday with its students and community, in the aftermath of Mr English\u2019s irresponsible comments. I issued a clarifying statement on Monday morning to clear up the misinformation from Mr English. This instance serves to remind all of us in the House how careful we must be to check our facts, before commenting publicly on difficult situations and therefore making distressing situations more fraught.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c442426a04f4612b12973856849054b\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister became aware of the situation, why did he not say publicly that the student, who is on bail for murder, would not be allowed back into a mainstream classroom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bbac42c2bd6415bbc27e40acb3a01f9\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: If the member cares to check the Herald on Sunday he will realise that my office was contacted, and I commented. But, of course, I am limited in what I can say, because, unlike Mr English, I did not intend to break the law. [Interruption] Let me be clear: if I had done what that member asked for, I would have broken the law in the same way that Mr English tentatively has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c21cac217a80410886ee30eec40357e8\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What was the source of the confusion around this matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c83250b4bcd24d6db801ba206138edb8\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The confusion is a direct result of the statements made by Mr English. I heard Mr English say on National Radio, firstly, that the board of trustees was taking it seriously enough to have an emergency meeting; secondly, that the board clearly thought it must deal with the issue; and, thirdly, that this board of trustees knew that it had to deal with it. When asked whether he had spoken to the board, so he knew that, he said: \u201CAh, no, I haven\u2019t.\u201D He further said that Steve Maharey should not make the college accept the student with those charges. When he was asked whether he had spoken to me about my actions, he said: \u201CAh, no, I haven\u2019t.\u201D That is where the confusion came from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d248b2a5ebd24511a0fcee99de8dd5c0\u0022\u003EElective Surgery\u2014Ability to Meet Need\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022958ab44d793b433382473f93cf6ed47d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is he concerned about the Government\u2019s ability to meet New Zealanders\u2019 need for elective surgery; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00225aa7a3018ae94777b18751b77e437be3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225aa7a3018ae94777b18751b77e437be3\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I am. Despite a 24 percent increase in hip replacements, a 52 percent increase in knee replacements, and a 75 percent increase in angioplasties since the change of Government, there are always improvements to make. This Government will pursue those improvements with vigour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b6a9dfc2b54c09b40094af57989cca\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility will he take for the fact that 13,000 more people are now waiting for an appointment to see a specialist than when Labour was first elected, and that is despite clear evidence that district health boards up and down the country are culling patients who are waiting to see a specialist for the first time, such as in Hawke\u2019s Bay and elsewhere around the nation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3c85ae92cc54cbf884e0e2f44584f38\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: That seems to be at variance with the member\u2019s point of view around about Thursday of last week, when he said there was a drop in the number of people waiting to see a specialist and therefore something must be wrong because people cannot get on to the specialist\u2019s waiting list. Now he is saying that there has been an increase and therefore the health system is failing for that reason. The member has to get his lines straight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200fad2a87274423a86f0ee02c1988f87\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Could he explain his comments yesterday that patients culled from a waiting list and sent back to a general practitioner are, in fact, better off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b38b877d2b8498d838db775d2e2a97f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I made no such comment. What I did say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe9d9564f9f5440ea00aab1ca8b3435d\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebc858d950bc48b1ad6bf592a1018b81\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: We heard you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d5199f666ae4105934ff308cf6a5c3f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well then, let me quote the speech that the member has misquoted. I did say that it is better for a person to be sent back to a general practitioner than to be left on a waiting list and receive no attention, no review, no follow-up, and no reassessment. That is why the National Government got rid of the old waiting list system and introduced the booking system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f351670c762c44539f0a1f7b80fc13e7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders believe him when he says that patients are better off by being sent back to their general practitioner, when the respected chairman of the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons says there is a crisis and the numbers are getting worse, the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists says the Government has no effective strategy to deal with waiting lists, and the lobby group Health Cuts Hurt says the Minister is offering nothing to reassure the thousands of patients who are languishing on his waiting lists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e195ed8b1c645e5a5631d932d2d7eb5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted that the National Party, as the other main party in this House, joins Labour in wanting to have a better-still health system. However, I find it bewildering that only 8 months ago we went to the polls in this country, fighting over whether we should have an $11 billion tax cut courtesy of the National Party, which thankfully lost the election, because an $11 billion tax cut over 3 years would make health cuts deep and ugly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228540cc2b1cd42cc9946021171cfa481\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What does it mean that the land information portfolio has now been taken off the Minister, and is that not a sign that even the Prime Minister can see that Pete Hodgson is doing to the health system what he did to the Kyoto Protocol?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3f967f237944adc8cdca6bfe6d55b7a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: What that reflects is the fact that within this Cabinet there are many, many multiskilled members and we can manage any number of portfolios without a great deal of difficulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b71172962c0048aca3acd034bb51b936\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister accept that the symptoms of \u201Ccrisis syndrome\u201D that he described yesterday include lashing out at doctors who dare to question Labour policy, frenzied attacks on Opposition spokespeople, criticism of the media, and loss of personal control during question time, and that the best cure is to remove himself from his unbearable portfolio responsibility; and would he further agree that being criticised by him on matters of health-care policy is a bit like being called a halfwit by the village idiot?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a647a6204d884b798af6e6aff970af68\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member has just described the Leader of the Opposition. I also think that so long as the facts can be put in the way of a good story I will remain happily active in my role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6d843c47d8a445897fd00443f225d20\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Seats\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b5957e68c824757b792bc7f121122b1\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What recent reports, if any, has he received on the future of the M\u0101ori seats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00229ba9121a04b743bc8fca1de5ef6fee9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ba9121a04b743bc8fca1de5ef6fee9d\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I have received a report that outlines the objectives of the M\u0101ori electoral option process. Those objectives are that M\u0101ori have the opportunity to choose whether they are enrolled on the general roll or the M\u0101ori roll and that M\u0101ori are encouraged to participate in the democratic process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0ad1ca623364420ae67508683555c17\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: What other recent reports has he seen on the future of the M\u0101ori seats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb3ee520efc4afc827e93a6f72dbb7c\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen three reports. The first report notes a plan to abolish the M\u0101ori seats, the second report states that the seats will be part of the political landscape for some time to come, and the third, principled, report states that the M\u0101ori seats will be abolished\u2014well, that is unless the party in question needs the support of the M\u0101ori Party. The first report is from the leader of the National Party, and the second and third reports are from his deputy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ebc4e8dd68c40389d51541f7a135b3e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the 1867 legislation that set up the M\u0101ori seats intended that they should last for only 5 years, and can he tell us what justification there is for race-based seats in this country some 135 years after they were supposed to go out of existence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ac35ed0c724ca8b7afcceba374e34f\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can say to the member that it has always been the view of this party that the end of the M\u0101ori seats, if it should ever come, should come as a result of M\u0101ori deciding that they are no longer required. Another member of this House said that the policy has always been that the M\u0101ori seats will go when the M\u0101ori people choose for them to go\u2014that was said by the National Party\u2019s Tony Ryall between 1992 and 2001 on the subject of the M\u0101ori seats. I agree with him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e777fc52a43749f59a353dd803fad84e\u0022\u003ETaxation\u2014Overseas Shares\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641d7dcf952e4486ac238748815fc228\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What will be the formula for New Zealand residents calculating their tax liability if they hold shares outside of New Zealand or Australia after 1 April 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00221f6f718e7547467ab9d6a4a740d48ae8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f6f718e7547467ab9d6a4a740d48ae8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E That would depend on the nature of the resident, the nature of the company invested in, and the total cost of the investment held.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228de99dcc3cd2443dafa2405c81a5ffbb\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister support the New Zealand Superannuation Fund\u2019s diversified approach to asset allocation, where the vast bulk of equities are owned offshore; in which case, why is he proposing a capital gains tax on ordinary Kiwis that will penalise them for everything he says he supports the New Zealand Superannuation Fund undertaking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227507e5e777d84a319644795d1f3f9623\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: All managed funds have investments offshore, primarily because the New Zealand sharemarket is relatively small. But the member, of course, continues to make a fundamental misstatement. At present, a 100 percent capital gains tax applies to investment in all countries outside of eight \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries. That will be significantly reduced under the new regime, and that will encourage diversification. The member is arguing that we should continue to advantage investment into Germany compared with India.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877ef2c0dcac4e0cad6d8a9d84c93075\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I am glad the Minister answered in that way, because does he understand that currently the capital gains tax - exempt, \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries comprise 80 percent of the world\u2019s market capitalisation of listed stocks\u201480 percent of the world\u2019s capitalisation is in those companies\u2014which leaves only 20 percent on his blacklist, yet, after his latest \u201Cenvy tax\u201D, that 80 percent will now shrink to a mere 2 percent; armed with this knowledge, does he still think it is such a great idea to introduce the new rules, which replace a bias against 20 percent with a bias against 98 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c35a555d2084a90b0c3b9ac66cce9aa\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, the advantage is in relation to New Zealand and Australia only, because they are treated as a single economic market\u2014and that member will go up to Auckland on Friday and pretend to support that, but in this House, of course, he will oppose it. The reality at the moment is that the \u201Cgrey list\u201D regime was developed on the theory that those countries could be relied upon to tax at source. In practice, that is not happening in many instances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf19dbc1fe640b0ab6b6fe9504e09c5\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What reports, if any, has the Minister seen of positive industry reaction to the proposals that were recently announced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a07134186bc453198f01c4b4c516d24\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a number of such reports, and, particularly, from those who know something about these issues. Ernst and Young describes the change as a \u201Ctriumph for tax neutrality\u201D. The NZX Chief Executive, Mark Weldon, said that the change would be positive for New Zealand capital markets. Carmel Fisher, of Fisher Funds Management, stated that the tax changes are great news for investors and for New Zealand capital markets. Jo Doolan, in the Independent, wrote: \u201CIt is evident the Government \u2026 moved a long way in trying to make the rules more user-friendly.\u201D The only people opposing this are a British-based company, Guinness Peat Group, its paid agents, and the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217e1add3207f4c8398d3dbe2d8223856\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: If the legislation is enacted along the lines reported, will a person be able to avoid any capital gains tax liable on American shares by selling those shares and transferring the money to Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9b7065167384e2f9c3a13abb8356f37\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because, of course, the value of those shares has not been repatriated to New Zealand. I might add that, given that the American context is of specific importance for countries involved in what might broadly be called new-technology venture capital areas, talks are well advanced on ensuring that those kinds of companies will not be adversely affected by the changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f29081c14d0d411b9510ef256ba73a6d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Will this new capital gains tax apply to new migrants and returning New Zealanders who qualify for a 4-year tax exemption on foreign income; if not, once the exemption expires, will capital gains be calculated on an increase in value from 1 April 2007 or from when the exemption expires?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a72e3c5b64446faaddc01b44e65fd66\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that that would apply from the date of the expiry of the exemption, but I will check on that and get back to the member. The member, however, does help with a very important point to clear up a misunderstanding. The new regime applies prospectively only from 1 April next year; the gains are not backdated from the time of purchase of shares. There has been a good deal of misunderstanding of that point within the public arena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227033340d88714bd2ad221c9e31d3f186\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: By how much will taxation on investments be reduced under the proposal announced on 11 April 2006?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220023cad144ef43e880a9f6ba3df3dd8c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Contrary to the impression some people are trying to create, the proposals will cut tax on investments by a net $110 million a year by reducing tax advantages for investors using managed funds\u2014primarily those on lower incomes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b78609538eea43c3b3e49ab1316b01d9\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Absolute nonsense\u2014$25 million if you\u2019re lucky!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e29db6f13d4444b103e4869770b5ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which is why the \u201CYoung Pretender\u201D is squeaking away over there; he is not interested in those particular people\u2014and abolishing the tax on capital gains on New Zealand and Australian shares held via a managed fund, which at present are subject to a capital gains tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b0ef3833aa14f8e85e51857e0456b02\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that New Zealand investors\u2019 liability under his new capital gains tax is not capped by his formula of 85 percent of 5 percent\u2014the formula he wants everyone to believe\u2014but that, rather, the formula applies to the total capital gains, once the assets have been sold and repatriated to New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b77608ec4daf42cd9d21ae643a531702\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Effectively, what there is here is a rolling imputation credit along the way, and, on repatriation, that will occur. But, of course, what the member completely fails to point out, yet again, is that all investments in countries outside the \u201Cgrey list\u201D at the moment are subject to 100 percent capital gains tax. There is not a new capital gains tax; it is a rationalisation of the existing regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f1fbfe670d44837b13995c19c97424f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: How much additional revenue will the Crown receive as a result of his cracking down on the salary sacrifice rules, and when this is added to the additional revenue from the abolition of all but Australia as the \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries, is it not a fact that, rather than cutting tax by the figure of $110 million that he was trumpeting before, in an earlier answer on this question, this policy is pretty much revenue neutral, like every Michael Cullen tax adjustment, and just like his business tax review will be when he slaps on his shiny new little payroll tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241e69053f9c14f1cbb36b077416f6bfa\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: From 1 April there were very significant business tax cuts, which cost some hundreds of millions of dollars a year, and which were not in the least revenue neutral, but the member, of course, as usual, wants to avoid those particular things\u2014a member who, in an interview on Saturday morning, could not even answer whether he believed in God.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a5bb27fe8274d09a8f9586780bfe87d\u0022\u003EWorking for Families Package\u2014Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc0a367080a45ec82b22aebd931ee6d\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports, if any, has he received on support for the Working for Families package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3a48aca60c74087aa40f51b891a76e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3a48aca60c74087aa40f51b891a76e2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen a number of reports that endorse the Government\u2019s policy of targeting tax credits where they are needed\u2014to hard-working Kiwi families with children. One example was in a speech given on Sunday, which was an endorsement of \u201Callowing for family size in the tax structure\u201D and \u201Ceasing the financial pressure on families generally.\u201D That speech was given by Don Brash, so in the words of the Dominion Post, it is \u201Cback to the drawing board\u201D for National on tax policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022432bc735b13d4f50873015b734895ad3\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has the Minister seen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2796b5fe038477ca796f885f407363a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a number of letters to the Prime Minister in response to the package. One of them states: \u201CIn our household the extra $132 that is received each week has eased the financial pressure substantially. Now I shop knowing there is room in the budget to buy a reasonable amount of groceries that will see us through the full week. The extra money means that I can put some money towards paying off old debt. It means I can enrol my son in swimming lessons and sports activities. Working for Families is, for my family, huge.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022659f6556-09a1-4ead-bc52-05cbdb4eaab8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd56170eac0f46e491ceb00c156ac1fe\u0022\u003ECraig Foss\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Working for Families package, which sends a message to Kiwis of \u201CThis is as good as it gets, and don\u2019t even bother trying to improve yourself because the Labour Government will tax you at 90 percent.\u201D, do anything at all to lift the living standards for New Zealanders to the levels enjoyed by the thousands of New Zealanders currently living in Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d054fcaafd40029b4be715c0ef2c69\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would have thought that a package that has already benefited 194,000 families in terms of family assistance, 286,500 recipients of accommodation supplements, and 31,600 recipients of childcare assistance is actually making some very substantial gains for those families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d64ac2ba9b435e9edeb11808c2c40e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that Australia uses a targeted tax credit mechanism, which is also bled out with high effective marginal tax rates, and, like many countries, does not have a universal tax allowance for children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c40295575d0f42e882028f2984b42d64\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that the system the Working for Families package is based on is very similar to that in the UK and Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7c6bdde37284a669a5fef7db4389547\u0022\u003EHousing New Zealand\u2014Chairman\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db21efb378d94e7c8b7530a6224e413a\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Does he have confidence in the Housing New Zealand chairman, given that he broke the \u201Cno surprises\u201D agreement by failing to tell him for 6 months about the allegations of accounting irregularities made by a former contractor; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc0a1d9bef7c4f599f024ccb26e42ad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc0a1d9bef7c4f599f024ccb26e42ad6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The chair acted appropriately and promptly, once all the circumstances of the allegations were drawn to his attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259eff7652d3f4ad3825b348143325fac\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he have confidence in the chairman when the Prime Minister herself said that the chairman should have advised him earlier, and when all parties agreed that the gagging clause was \u201Can error of judgment\u201D and \u201Cnot remotely appropriate\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a30006456684bb380dad2dca6abf72a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The chairperson of Housing New Zealand and myself both condemned the gagging clause as soon as we found out about it. We did not find out about it until the news media broke the story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022748dd26563bd4b2389c6dadda96be58b\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What steps did the Minister take when he was made aware of the full circumstances of the allegations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022635a759339054f5a888a7946dc0673db\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I called in the board chairman for a full explanation and made it clear that the allegations needed to be investigated in a transparent and comprehensive way. I am pleased to see that the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General is now engaged in that investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a717b06900942fdb80aa3422d43d306\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the chairman not agree to an inquiry until now, given that he knew of the contractor\u2019s allegations 6 months ago and knew of the gagging clause as early as March; why did the chairman not take this issue seriously before the public and media outcry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe1eef3190a4e77b02e0ac65c031e9f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated in my initial answer, as soon as the chairman was aware of the full scope, or potential scope, of the allegations he acted promptly, as I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c86f9cf18c8e46b7b78835a6e1c1916d\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the chairman have Gerald Coles stood down on the basis of the gagging-clause letter that directly implicated him, but did not stand down the chief executive when that very same letter directly implicates her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a9cc47ba9fe40a8a2f46e1c78594a7d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: These are matters being investigated by the Auditor-General. I do not consider it appropriate to comment until after that investigation is completed and made public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221486c6a4b23048c1ae48046d9aecbc27\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question was about the standing down of Gerald Coles, which occurred well before the Auditor-General\u2019s inquiry was agreed on, and even before the Auditor-General was asked to have an inquiry. I find it intriguing that the Labour member Steve Chadwick can ask about events before the inquiry was announced and get a full answer\u2014and you will find that in the reply to supplementary question No. 3\u2014but an Opposition member like myself cannot get a full answer from the Minister on events before the inquiry was called, and that he hides behind the fact that the inquiry was called. I would like an answer to my question, just like the Labour member got an answer to her question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a9339a6fbd4232829d45772fdd6dcd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister addressed the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022561de32dc1c047649c962af24280797c\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister has condemned the gagging clause in the House today, can he confirm that as a matter of principle, if inquiries show that the chief executive knew of this gagging-clause arrangement, he will expect the directors of Housing New Zealand to require her resignation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845f1e0321324fd5bdf290c0e85be40f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In all my public comments on this issue, and as I have said again in the House today, I find such a gagging order totally unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220efc629b622a40268230f6a5d7ebcd99\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: As he has condemned the gagging order, can he confirm, as a matter of principle, that if the chairman of the board knew of this gagging-clause arrangement he would expect his resignation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb187a7812b46039f231b5e4d6b739b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat my last answer that such a gagging clause is totally unacceptable. We will see what the investigation turns up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ea47c6cf8a4205985f1bda442239fd\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the gagging-clause letter that caused Gerald Coles to be stood down because he is identified in it, but did not cause the chief executive to be stood down, even though she was identified in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022664c67ad4af14922883472fb2d3ddb0a\u0022\u003EHousing Statistics\u2014Social Report 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279adc437ff234505a2e90ccc79eedfaa\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What progress, if any, has been made in reducing the people living in crowded housing statistics, noting that the Social Report 2005 stated 10 percent of the New Zealand population were living in crowded housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb126bb774e243858e9d7a7d80511daa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb126bb774e243858e9d7a7d80511daa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E When Labour took office the number of State houses in New Zealand had declined by approximately 13,000 under the previous National administration, despite mounting demand, poverty, and increased rates of overcrowding. Since January 2000 the Government has added almost 6,000 State houses to the housing network and has introduced income-related rents, all of which assist in alleviating the levels of overcrowding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631ddaa5bde9424dbfb02dfa5642ba37\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister consider that the substandard housing and overcrowding crisis identified in the Northland, East Cape, and Bay of Plenty areas in the early years of the current Labour Government has been addressed; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dadff45c3daa4cbfa082c2771504f264\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Progress has been made in the areas that the member has just mentioned\u2014indeed, she herself was responsible from 10 December 1999 to 30 April 2004 for implementing the Government\u2019s policies in that areas mentioned. We have made progress, but increasing land values and the scarcity of skilled labour in the areas mentioned have restricted the achievements we would like to have made. But over 1,600 houses have been improved in those rural areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229db8ce652148434a9f2c6eb7763483a6\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Does the health of tenants in State houses improve once they move from the Housing New Zealand Corporation waiting list to State houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1593dfbbf7649a98e7aff7df90f6731\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Housing, Crowding and Health study just published by the University of Otago shows that the health of tenants in State houses improves significantly once they move from the waiting list to a State house. The study found that acute hospital attendances were 10 percent lower in Housing New Zealand Corporation tenants compared with those on the waiting list for such a house. That is why this Government has placed such an emphasis on providing more housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0e200b98f4430c92f3e41886a4fb15\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister undertake to change Labour\u2019s fundamentally flawed policies that allow people with $70,000, $80,000, and $90,000 after-tax incomes to remain in State houses, and that allow State house tenants to have three, four, or five boarders in their spare rooms, in order to start addressing the human and health costs of the blowout in the Housing New Zealand Corporation waiting list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1145c3720b4418aef70149527899c9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Under the previous National Government\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c1df4bf61c349a4bb999e96e1c1e42f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister to continue so that we can hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd03e1e311c458f818cb9307b1e6fa2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014wealthy tenants were encouraged to move into State houses, because they were the only ones who could afford market rents. Under this Government, 98 percent of new tenants are paying income-related rents\u2014these are people with high housing needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022837aed5fbbf74cdc890a7fddcb3720b6\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I asked the Minister whether he would change Labour\u2019s policies, which he has responsibility for\u2014and for which he has had responsibility for nearly 7 years now\u2014that have allowed thousands and thousands of people to languish on the waiting list while people in State houses are earning $70,000, $80,000, or $90,000 after-tax and are renting out their rooms to boarders. I asked the Minister whether he will change that flawed policy; I did not ask him about what National did nearly 7 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1395aeb98554084ba6018fe42e77ee4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister made it perfectly clear that he was not going to because, under the existing policies, 98 percent of those now entering State housing are people on low incomes. Under the previous National Government\u2019s policy, one had to have $70,000, $80,000, or $90,000 even to be able to afford to get into a State house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203ae9e22ecd849089bd51121645d8ce8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Both members have had an opportunity to address the point of order. The Minister was in the process of addressing the question. I think we should hear the Minister\u2019s full answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f3cfd8d9c149ba9457a11f5d7002d1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. With all due respect, the Minister did start the question with a very provocative statement, which you noted because of the noise level in the House. I thought you had previously instructed Ministers to give answers in a concise way so that we do not have that sort of disruption in the House. After all, those Ministers are supposed to be responsible for their portfolios and for what is happening now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214427d7fb8b64cfdb4c287740874c5e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I watched very carefully what happened in that case. The outburst of noise erupted as members on the National Party benches woke up when the Minister said \u201Cunder the previous National Government\u201D. If the words \u201Cunder the previous National Government\u201D are regarded as being provocative, then I am not quite sure what words we are allowed to use in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251c652d4ce9a479292a00547350fa106\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, I agree with the member that it would be appreciated by everyone if both questions and answers were delivered concisely. However, I ask the Minister to complete his addressing of the question that was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd899312b8bc439ab31c4db0da94631e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We are encouraging Murray McCully\u2019s tenants to move on. We are actively seeking to place more of the people on the waiting list into State houses. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddeb5ccd091f4b8fa8c2c079754945ec\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister please address the question without making provocative comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f109585aaf2844f0982b36fcfc9cb1fb\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2b51cda346a4ef8b46fbbe96385c83b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, I am addressing an issue. I would like the Minister to please answer the question without making those provocative comments. He should just stick to answering that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6eb64202e04690aeee0d76973916d8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We have invested almost $2 billion since 1999 in housing. We have built almost 6,000 new houses. We are actively promoting a programme that leads to decent housing for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a99093d35a4d1186d4b536d50ded92\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Why has there been no response to the case of Mrs Atareiria HeiHei of Takou Bay, who approached Housing New Zealand Corporation 10 months ago regarding the overcrowding in her home, where 14 people were confirmed by the housing support coordinator for the Ministry of Social Development to be living there, and where the issues identified were privacy, health, emotional stress, hygiene, and sanitation; does the Minister consider a 10-month delay to be an appropriate time frame to address such serious issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9aec6ae803453994302ab42ed328ee\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I would really welcome the opportunity to talk to the member about that particular case, and I ask him to see me at the end of question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a871d8474ee48d5bb4c7602b9552139\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that the reason why the Housing New Zealand Corporation can do nothing in Takou Bay is that it has no residential properties for rent there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229034c405e43e458599d3722592aeb2c0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That may well be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a485cb915b4495d91db24ca112fd598\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Tariana Turia. [Interruption] Tariana Turia has been called. She is entitled to ask her question in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4956daecc68467290761c1215911bd6\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: What response will the Minister give to Miss Dawn HeiHei of Takou Bay, whom the Kait\u0101ia Family Start worker referred to Housing New Zealand Corporation for urgent rental accommodation, particularly when the corporation\u2019s offices in Whangarei and Kaikohe have been advised that one of the corporation\u2019s properties in Takou Bay is being used as a holiday home for one family?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d79d92451447412e8122e58f503de731\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I would be very happy to talk to the member about this case to see whether we can find a solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4309a29b1fe42d8b6e6cd0281c63fd0\u0022\u003EWaikato River\u2014Government Negotiations with Tainui\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022349126bc51f349f8a48a94014509d7c2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: What negotiations, if any, are currently taking place between the Government and Tainui over the Waikato River?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002201c6200a57f34f0aa0ae73db1d0a7299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201c6200a57f34f0aa0ae73db1d0a7299\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E In May 2005 the Crown recognised the mandate of the Waikato Raupatu Trustee Co. Ltd to negotiate the Waikato River claims of Waikato-Tainui. Negotiations are taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022961ad651b0324841a8ed0e63e7aa3090\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Are those negotiations likely to cause Waikato River users additional costs, where costs are applied, if those negotiations are successfully concluded for Tainui?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243a2b4ecce9040419f3ec9600245b942\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As agreed in the terms of negotiation between the Crown and Waikato-Tainui, the negotiations over the river are, as with any such negotiations, confidential to the parties unless otherwise agreed between them. It would not, therefore, be appropriate for me to discuss or disclose any of the detail of those negotiations at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cee96a1687d44a784116874c35876a7\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What protections for existing Waikato water and river users are the Government seeking in those negotiations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d151fa9714a41d2821a08b773de12f7\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated, although it is inappropriate for me to comment on the specifics of any negotiation that is in progress\u2014as the member knows, that would be a breach of good faith\u2014I can say to the member that it is a general principle that the rights of users be protected in any such negotiation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e059748483df4e3fb1b2728cd7ad56e9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Is it possible that as a result of those negotiations, Waikato River users and/or users of water will have to negotiate with Tainui over the existing or future use of the river or its water?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f010ebcc2f4e4cbb874ade73c6d0a6\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is asking me to speculate on a hypothetical question. That is absolutely pointless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7ddfda1a87142a9badbf9d08ffab8c1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I did not ask him to speculate, at all. The Minister knows he is in those negotiations. He knows he has received reports. He will not give them to us, because he is saying that the Act does not apply to them. This is a parliamentary issue. It is about a very iconic waterway in this country. I asked him, simply, what the Government\u2019s position would be in the negotiations. To just be told he cannot tell me that because to do so would be a breach of good faith raises the question of with whom it would be a breach of good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac73715c4e649ed9370d3ed08f4b8a2\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows well, the process by which negotiations take place is that good-faith negotiations require a confidentiality of process. This Parliament, of course, will have the opportunity, at the time that a deed of settlement bill comes to it, to consider that bill in detail. The bill would go to a select committee, and the House in its entirety would get to consider it after the select committee. It is therefore simply not credible for the member to suggest that the House is excluded. It is simply a matter of addressing matters in their appropriate order, in good faith\u2014a concept I do not think the member understands well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022941068e9dd8e4fcd8141758c90e05e12\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think we needed that last comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d6c7e0071bf407bb7178fc2336de483\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise for the last comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256f845f13a7241eaa725cd1f47bdb3d1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022228eba97c6284c23aedd045b923a0ec2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a fact that the negotiations are taking place because the Waikato River was not included in the Tainui settlement effected and signed off by the previous National Government, seven members of which are present over there on the Opposition benches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d45cbbedcc404bb29adbc050340820\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is the case that in 1995 the river was specifically excluded, in order that it would be addressed later on. That is what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e22baa4ac7674a54b120b116df5ae277\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm that the legislation that may give effect to the negotiations will not see the light of day until he and this Government know that they have the numbers to pass it; and in that event, will he give an undertaking that prior to it coming to the public\u2019s attention, there will be discussions with Waikato water users over the future of their rights to access water from the river?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203d2d7121902409bbe646d6733ca4f58\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the member that the bill will not see the light of day until the negotiations are complete. That is the normal order of these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc117be57677492b9e488cc5fe38f652\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It wasn\u2019t the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5b6b6bcc6fa4f84831b85a3d6f0930c\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I previously addressed the question in a general sense, by saying that all such negotiations take account of existing users\u2019 rights and needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022305eb3f325294b71a23a5af3583b8875\u0022\u003EMedicines Strategy\u2014Terms of Reference\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b29cb3d3a24fa4b690f7f1085647c4\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What are the next steps following the announcement of the terms of reference for the national medicines strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00222dbd086a47f24cca91197c844678f22a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dbd086a47f24cca91197c844678f22a\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The aim of the national medicines strategy is to identify where improvements can be made within the existing system and the broad policy settings to ensure the best health and disability outcomes from medicines over the coming years. The Ministry of Health has begun work on a draft strategy document that will analyse the current system in New Zealand, look at our current policy settings, and describe international trends. It is also engaging with the sector on this work. I expect a new consultation document will be submitted to Cabinet by the end of the year. Consultation will take place early next year and I expect final advice of the outcome by the end of next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227566e53227a4d82918f76055e922cd5\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Is this strategy confined to a review of Pharmac?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b9258747985400298ca7cdc02b23df2\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I am glad the member raises that question, because I need to make a point very clearly that this strategy is not simply a review of Pharmac. The strategy will focus on quality, access, and rational use of medicines. That being said, access to medicines is clearly an issue of interest to many stakeholders, but this is not about the way Pharmac operates, this is about the overall environment within which those decisions are made, and I look forward to the public response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b2358dfc94e41a6bf064c349127e1a9\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the response to the announcement so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9d2d13368d448d9b331bdc90a2ff20d\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: So far the response has been very positive from a variety of different groups. The non-governmental organisation Access to Medicines Coalition described this as being a significant move in the right direction. The Researched Medicines Industry Association has strongly welcomed the approach, and I have had a number of responses from individuals\u2014medical practitioners, and others\u2014all saying that this is a very timely initiative that they want to participate in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb2d439263244dda99040ea2049c5b28\u0022\u003ETaito Phillip Field\u2014Conflicts of Interest Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228cfd5a0a9c849d79ef404ed5d4b5485\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: What has been the total cost to date of the inquiry by Noel Ingram QC into alleged conflicts of interest involving Taito Phillip Field?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00229adac6be58e540d397ab95e16a53c40c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229adac6be58e540d397ab95e16a53c40c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E The information on costs will be released when the inquiry is complete and all costs are known. I do not consider progress reports on costs appropriate as they could be deemed to be placing pressure on the inquiry. The inquiry should take as long as necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d8396246ca4d458ea6b6c643f4b1b7\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by her statement of 14 September last year that: \u201CI think the only thing he is probably guilty of is trying to be helpful to someone.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb9f2b259a774e8f8b0b83b6da634413\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am waiting for the report, to see what it advocates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a75df243f54445a78fcd664ab1d01be8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: If there is no substance to the allegations against the honourable Taito Phillip Field, why has a report that she herself initially estimated would take 9 working days to complete now taken over 7 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275cefda081764eb38c1d57a4d98227b0\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I have consistently said, the report must take as long as required to be full and frank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf0df964b0c64ea388f4765ea22d0d7e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen a draft of the report; if so, was the report in the Trans Tasman of 27 April, that the honourable Taito Phillip Field was playing \u201Chardball with the Labour Party over the examination of his dealings with the immigrant community\u201D accurate; if not, why has the release of the report taken so long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ebd38deaa8a46538810de5253c23bf7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I know of nothing to substantiate the quote the member has referred to, nor have I read a draft report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aae6d41588044a48ecbc3c9bfa735fd\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Did the honourable Taito Phillip Field\u2019s former electorate agents Maria Coady and Siniva Papalii give evidence to the inquiry; if not, why have such key people not provided evidence to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289bdcdf1b7b54d75b86e18eda2530068\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have no idea. I am waiting for the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d93151b4d0047a48fe2ed1520976342\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f6342414c2648f3b7008b78965f87a8\u0022\u003EWell Child Freephone Service\u2014Contract\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00221a67f769afb54373ad974b3061276832\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a67f769afb54373ad974b3061276832\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Judy Turner seeking to debate under Standing Order 380 the decision to transfer the contract for the Well Child freephone service to McKesson New Zealand. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving administrative responsibility of the Government, but I do not consider that it requires the House to set aside its pre-arranged business to debate it today. There are other parliamentary opportunities for this decision to be examined. The request is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002267024888ed314f3793772e5930440dda\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c31da411e5934f61813188116c7ed977\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11 to Minister, 4 April\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u002217c755f7877142a1894973e3ce11bcf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217c755f7877142a1894973e3ce11bcf7\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E In my answer to a supplementary question on 4 April I referred to the independent group of 10 scientists who had peer reviewed Biosecurity New Zealand\u2019s risk analysis covering the importation of honey from Australia and the Pacific Islands, and I stated that \u201Call vouched for the fact that we have the most minimal amount of risk involved in it.\u201D From the advice I had received I concluded that this was the case. However, I have subsequently been advised that one of the 10 scientists disagreed with Biosecurity New Zealand\u2019s approach for managing the identified risks. I am informed, however, that the other nine scientists, when reviewing the parts of the document relevant to their expertise, did not express disagreement with the analysis, and that Biosecurity New Zealand therefore remains satisfied that the risk analysis is robust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229abb6e8ce6f04ac9b658d50832ecccf9\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cef644cb91cc445e9f2e652b38eea87e\u0022\u003EUrgent Debate Declined\u2014Well Child Freephone Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002247fc4abf94a64a38a78b40d285311657\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247fc4abf94a64a38a78b40d285311657\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I note your decision in respect of the application by Judy Turner seeking to debate a matter of urgent public importance. I note that the House does control its own destiny, and I seek the leave of the House to have the debate on PlunketLine that United Future has sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cb393d3b2324ac0871a221baa9cdf76\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? Yes there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b9ba9e9611648299448140a584df7ea\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d55f3b17dd949d68ae72f940f9036df\u0022\u003ELetter to Minister of Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2329c30c8c14775ad870fa5fb5c037b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2329c30c8c14775ad870fa5fb5c037b\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the letter the HeiHei family wrote to the Minister of Housing on 16 February this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267e6dc3577a6427aa3ca54496365b729\u0022\u003EParental Leave and Employment Protection (Paid Parental Leave for Self-Employed Persons) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb255c35157f409c99b441ae22060400\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebec7f303f7d4a4e8a5b649e5d8c8178\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebec7f303f7d4a4e8a5b649e5d8c8178\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Paid Parental Leave for Self-Employed Persons) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. This bill implements the Labour-led Government\u2019s policy to extend the paid parental leave scheme to self-employed individuals who are not currently covered by the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act. In doing so, the bill furthers a number of our Government\u2019s objectives to support working parents on the birth or adoption of a child. These include ensuring that the paid parental leave scheme is accessible to a wider number of individuals, enhancing equity by allowing employed people to access paid parental leave irrespective of whether they are employees or self-employed, enabling a self-employed parent to take leave with a period of income replacement, and supporting the health and well-being of new mothers and babies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESelf-employed mothers will be eligible if they have worked an average of 10 hours a week or more during either a 6 or 12-month period immediately before the expected date of delivery or adoption of a child. Self-employed mothers will have the same right as employees to transfer payments to their eligible partners, who may be either self-employed or employees. Self-employed people will be entitled to paid parental leave if they are engaged in more than one type of work consecutively and/or if they have a break of 30 days or less between engagements. Like employees, they will be required to stop working while receiving payments, but they will be able to maintain a level of oversight of their business during the leave period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EParental leave payments for the self-employed will equal their average weekly income, up to the maximum rate for employees\u2014currently $357.30 per week before tax. Those who make a loss, or who earn less than the minimum wage for at least 10 hours a week, will be entitled to payments for 10 hours a week at the minimum wage rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides that employees will become eligible for a subsequent period of parental leave and parental leave payments if the expected date of delivery or adoption is at least 6 months after their return to work from a previous period of parental leave, rather than the 12 months as at present. This provides fairness between first-time parents and parents of subsequent children. This will extend eligibility to paid parental leave to a small number of employees who are currently ineligible. The bill provides that self-employed women will be eligible for parental leave payments for second and subsequent children 6 months following previous parental leave payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes a new provision that explicitly provides that employees or self-employed persons may apply to the Employment Relations Authority for a review of a decision made by the Department of Labour about their eligibility for a parental leave payment. It also enables the department to approve applications for payment where there are technical problems with the application. Currently, these applications must go to the Employment Relations Authority before they can be approved. That amendment will save applicants from having to go through that process. However, the department may not approve applications if the problem is in dispute between the employer and the employee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill returns to the House with a small number of technical amendments. It clarifies that when a self-employed woman goes on parental leave before her expected date of delivery, the calculation of average weekly earnings will reflect only those weeks during which she was working. So her lack of earnings while on parental leave will not affect the final rate of parental leave payment. That amendment is consistent with the calculation methods applied to employees who take parental leave before the due delivery date of their child. It will provide guidance to the Department of Labour when exercising its discretion to approve irregular applications for parental leave payment. It clarifies that a parental leave payment will end for the primary applicant if the entitlement is transferred to his or her spouse or partner. It also clarifies that failing to provide information requested by the department under the principal Act is an offence. It will extend the time period within which offence proceedings relating to misleading the department may be commenced to within 6 months from the first time the alleged offence became known, or should reasonably have become known, to the department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI also advise the House that I will be introducing a Supplementary Order Paper in the Committee stage to resolve an issue of inconsistency that was identified in the later stages of scrutiny of the bill in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. That will allow persons who meet qualifying criteria both as an employee and as a self-employed person to apply for entitlements in respect of parental leave from their employment, and to apply for parental leave payments based on earnings from their work both as a qualifying employee and as a qualifying self-employed person. This amount will be capped at the same maximum amount as would be available to a person who was solely an employee or a self-employed person. This amendment will provide consistency with the current situation for employees with multiple employments, who are entitled to paid parental leave in all jobs for which they meet the eligibility criteria and can apply for paid parental leave up to the maximum amount payable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EOther technical amendments on the Supplementary Order Paper are made to ensure clarity in the administration of the Act. These include the definition of net income being amended to make it clear that trustee distributions are included as net income, and time off work while on accident compensation or parental leave, or in any other approved circumstances, being included as time working as a self-employed person. These hours are included when determining whether a self-employed person is eligible for parental leave payments. Again, that is consistent with the effect of the legislation for employees who are off work in those same circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EMost submitters supported the bill as it is. It does not discriminate between employed or self-employed workers, it encourages more choice for workers in their role as parents, it encourages self-employed women to return to the workforce after having a child, and it recognises that many self-employed people are not high-income earners and may be in as much need of access to income replacement during parental leave as employed people are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESome submitters supported the concept of paid parental leave for self-employed persons and made suggestions for improving the provisions relating to the self-employed, while others sought the broadening of the scope of the paid parental leave scheme as a whole to lengthen the duration of paid leave, increase the level of payment, and include other parents not currently covered by the scheme, such as casual and seasonal workers, and parents who assume the care of children via customary adoption or wh\u0101ngai. An evaluation of the entire scheme is currently under way, looking at the experiences of women, partners, and employers, and also at those who are ineligible for the scheme currently. That will assist our Government to consider further some of the broader issues raised by the submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe changes contained in the bill will be monitored after their implementation in order to contribute to the findings of the evaluation of the wider scheme currently under way. In the meantime, I welcome the select committee\u2019s report on the bill and thank all members for their work. I also extend my thanks to all those who took the time to make submissions. I commend the progress of the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002257e167af21814e74aa1cdb5548244153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257e167af21814e74aa1cdb5548244153\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E National will be supporting the report back of the bill, because in many ways it is the recognition of a failure of the original scheme created by the Labour Government. National members pointed out when the original scheme was developed that this was a major deficiency. We said that the exclusion of the self-employed was essentially discriminatory\u2014that Labour was looking after only those people who were employed and that it was completely ignoring the tens of thousands of parents who are involved in their own businesses as self-employed. That was our major objection. [Interruption] The junior whip who is interjecting knows the truth of that. The interesting question we have to ask ourselves is whether it took a close electoral fight for the Government to say: \u201CMm, maybe we need to change our position on this one and extend the support.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ENational has a philosophical difficulty with the way this legislation is being delivered. I say that because most self-employed people\u2014and I know this from being within the legal profession\u2014were seeking tax deductibility. That has been sought for many, many years. I acknowledge that National did not give that while in office, and indeed it should have. But that is what self-employed women, in particular, were seeking, and professional women and businesswomen made numerous submissions on it. I know for a fact that the Hon Ruth Dyson knows the truth of the matter. She has heard those submissions herself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Government says that it would sooner make someone a welfare beneficiary. Try as it might, Labour cannot duck the reality of that. This is a welfare benefit. Ask any self-employed people whether they want to become a welfare beneficiary and I can almost guarantee what their answer will be. It will be no. They would much prefer a tax deduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere are a number of reasons why that is the case. The first, which I have mentioned, is that self-employed people do not want to be welfare beneficiaries. The second reason, however, is that tax deduction is fundamentally simpler. All we would have to do is modify the Income Tax Act to provide a tax deduction for the costs of childcare, in particular, because that is what would really be involved. It would be a simple line in the return of income and the profit and loss statements of the particular business concerned. That is how business people think. They would just incorporate it as part and parcel of their instructions to their accountants when the annual tax return and annual accounts are being prepared. Would that not be so much simpler? Would that not be so much easier than this particular complicated, bureaucratic process? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI notice that the Minister was quite proud of the fact\u2014and made special reference to it\u2014that there had to be new amendments to provide for criminal proceedings. That is truly the mind of the bureaucrat, is it not? It is the nanny State\u2014that in all ways we have to give bureaucrats, officials, and officers of Government the power to prosecute people, bring them before the courts, and monitor them, and to send inspectors out whenever the bureaucrats want them to be sent out. The bureaucrats\u2019 small minds came up with that kind of plan. We know where the small-minded bureaucrats in this Parliament exist\u2014they exist on the Government benches. They are happy and comfortable in being small-minded, pettifogging bureaucrats. That is their comfort zone, that is their experience, and that is the approach they would sooner have. National members trust people and say that we would sooner give the public the opportunity to work out how to conduct their affairs in their business, as they think fit. I would not even go so far as to say that this is like the curate\u2019s egg\u2014good in parts. I suppose I have to acknowledge that at least the extension of paid parental leave to self-employed people is a step forward. But there was a far better way in which do this\u2014one that fits the way the self-employed operate, think, plan, and develop their own lives and businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI note that in this Labour Government very few people have any experience at all of being self-employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bec36ec8e95140568e9a7af4c568a3ce\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Get personal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf6fb87ba93d4328a7680e95c758cbfa\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Is this not bizarre? The junior whip is objecting to the fact that I am pointing out that very few people in the Government have had experience of being self-employed, and he accuses me of some sort of gutter politics of envy, or something. Frankly, it is quite bizarre. We know people by the company they keep. If Government members are embarrassed about being referred to as having had no experience of being self-employed, and if they feel so guilty about it that they have to make petty interjections, I can only say what a sad and unfortunate world they inhabit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe point I was trying to make was that although very few people over there have had experience of self-employment, there are two or maybe three in the House right now. I see the Hon Jim Sutton and Mr Shane Jones, who I know have had the experience of running their own businesses. They would well know that self-employed people do not want to become welfare beneficiaries. How often have I heard Mr Shane Jones, in particular, say in this Parliament\u2014and, indeed, in other forums\u2014that welfare has been the enemy of M\u0101ori people, in particular, and that to create beneficiaries out of people who have a proud record of independence detracts from their sense of independence? I have to say to the member that there is a better way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ENational will support the bill going to the next stage. I signal that we would like to provide an option during the Committee stage to give self-employed people at least the choice between going down this path\u2014the path of being made a State dependent; a welfare beneficiary\u2014or the pathway of the straightforward, simple, low-compliance, rules-based approach of a tax deduction. I ask Government members why they would not at least give people that choice. They should at least give people a choice. That would preserve their preferred bureaucratic-rich, nanny-State approach to the welfare system, and it would also say to self-employed people that the Government has at least some understanding of the situation they are in and acknowledges that they would prefer to have a tax deduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESo I give notice to the Government that we will be putting up a Supplementary Order Paper to give the Government the opportunity to give people a choice\u2014a two-pathway approach to delivering what is, objectively, the reasonable measure of supporting self-employed people and the raising of their families and reducing the costs of that to some extent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u002240097833e7f440fd93faab85435e182d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240097833e7f440fd93faab85435e182d\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak in the second reading of this very important bill. I congratulate the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, whose members worked constructively to ensure the bill could be reported back to the House expeditiously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI was going to say that it was very pleasing to have so much agreement in this House until I heard the speech made by the member opposite. He seems both to support paid parental leave and to oppose it. I thought we had moved on. Certainly, that was the impression we had when the bill was introduced, and from members opposite who were on the select committee. I thought we had all reached a point where we agreed that it is essential to ensure that all women and parents\u2014whether or not they are employed or self-employed\u2014do not feel pressured to put their working lives ahead of starting a family. I thought we had finally got the National Party to adopt a Labour Party policy. I thought its members had finally put aside their ideological reasons for opposing it, because it has not always been the case that they have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am one among many thousands of women who campaigned for 10 years for the right for mothers to have time off work on pay at the birth or adoption of a child. I did think we had moved on and I am sorry I was wrong about that, because I recall very well some famous comments made by members of the Opposition parties. Dr Brash said that he would scrap paid parental leave if National became the Government. Anne Tolley said the scheme was discriminatory and unfair and that National was likely to scrap the scheme if it got back into power, and so on. Jenny Shipley brought in a baby bonus as a sop to women who were campaigning. So I am disappointed; I did think we had moved on. I thought we had understood that it was really important in this country that we were modern and accepted that future generations have to be supported by giving all women and parents the right to have time off on pay at the birth or adoption of a child. It is a very common-sense policy and it shows the fairness of Labour\u2019s policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI want to comment on Mr Mapp\u2019s point about tax deductibility. It is not fair, because it advantages women who are well off. Those who are not well off cannot afford to wait until the end of the year to get their money back; they have to live from day to day to feed their baby and family. The Labour Party adopted this system because it was a fair policy. This bill builds on the paid parental leave scheme that was introduced by a Labour-led Government in 2002 and extended in 2004. It extends the benefits of paid parental leave to self-employed women. Yes, it was our policy before the election, and we have acted very quickly to deliver on it. The Prime Minister outlined it as a priority in her reply to the Speech from the Throne at the beginning of this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOne of the important changes to the bill that I think will benefit many women is the right of employees and self-employed women to become eligible for a subsequent period of paid parental leave after 6 months of a return to work from a previous period of parental leave, rather than 12 months as it is at present. Some important issues picked up by the select committee and outlined by the Minister will be addressed in the Supplementary Order Paper the Minister is to introduce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI was surprised, because there was a large amount of agreement in the select committee and I thought we had made some progress on this matter. I was going to say that it is a good day in this House when we have so much agreement about something so important to our future. At least I think we will get the bill voted on. If that is the case, then this is a good day for women, for parents, and for families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8cd3721d66347a29a9da7adb4dd2911\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8cd3721d66347a29a9da7adb4dd2911\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise, very keen to support the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Paid Parental Leave for Self-Employed Persons) Amendment Bill, but I take issue with the suggestion that I might support it for reasons similar to those of the Government. This measure is belated recognition of a gross oversight\u2014that is, excluding self-employed persons from the opportunity to benefit from paid parental leave. Why would they have been excluded? Let us look at the history. This bill was not the brainchild of the Labour Government. Laila Harr\u00E9 proposed this idea, and, at the time\u2014wait for it\u2014Helen Clark, the Prime Minister, said: \u201COver my dead body!\u201D. That is exactly what she said. But it seems that times they are a changing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003ESo when this legislation was introduced it was to support new parents with a policy that would give them some income replacement for a short period of time. As my esteemed colleague Wayne Mapp has said, we in the National Party are, of course, philosophically opposed to extending welfare benefits to people who would much rather have had a tax cut. That would have served them just as well, instead of their having to line up for something they could well call a benefit. Already far too many people are receiving benefits and being dependent upon this Government for income, when in fact they are very hard-working people who would just like to keep the money they earned in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c772a2dde9e24271bc225d09333a4b1f\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Working for Families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae461f41d4bc4110a6630e59966c9778\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: The Working for Families package, as my colleague has indicated, is a great example of that. So National would have preferred tax cuts as a form of supporting new parents, and we would prefer to have less of the bureaucracy associated with all the machinations of how this measure will be determined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EHowever, when the original bill was passed that excluded self-employed parents, we saw the injustice that it presented. Small businesses make up 95 percent of businesses in New Zealand, and many of those small businesses comprise couples\u2014those many, many couples involved in small businesses that keep this economy going\u2014and they have the same rights to income replacement and to support as new parents. However arbitrary it might seem, self-employed parents were excluded in the original bill. But no, it was probably not arbitrary; it was probably just an example of the clear bias amongst Government members towards employees and away from the self-employed. That is the union leaning coming out again, I suspect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1b064f711ef4329a9a79557332f4d1d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229345e5e3e7d54bd497de8a9a383d57d5\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that woke them up, did it not? They do not like being called unionists. Thank goodness this amendment to the bill addresses that\u2014I am so relieved that they are awake! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EHow many people might benefit from this amendment? Well, 66,412 women of fertile age in New Zealand are self-employed. That was quite a stunning number, I thought\u201466,412 women of fertile age. Of course, whilst those women are the people who will bear the children, there will be fathers involved\u2014the other side of the parenting equation. It has been estimated that 2,173 self-employed parents will apply for paid parental leave each year. It is not too bad really, but it is still an injustice that those people were going to be excluded prior to the amending of the original bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIt is clear that this amendment, like the original bill in the option it introduced to benefit families, will be taken up mainly by women. Of note amongst the 19 submitters to the bill at the select committee were the largely women\u2019s organisations. Those groups included the National Advisory Council on the Employment of Women, the New Zealand Federation of Business and Professional Women, the New Zealand College of Midwives, the New Zealand Nurses Organisation, the National Council of Women of New Zealand, the Family Planning Association, and Rural Women New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIt is very important that this bill acknowledges the different challenges faced by self-employed parents compared with those who are employed. This bill allows self-employed people to continue to maintain a level of oversight of their businesses and to perform occasional administrative tasks. Why is that important? That is very, very important. Although they will cease from the physical side of their self-employment, it is important they will still have the opportunity to undertake that oversight of their businesses. The investment on the part of those who are self-employed is not only monetary; it is an investment in terms of time and in terms of passion\u2014an enormous amount of passion goes into those 95 percent of New Zealand businesses, those small mum and dad businesses, those young parent businesses. No black and white rules should preclude the aforementioned\u2014that is, the level of oversight of their businesses and their ability to perform occasional administrative tasks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe last point I wish to make is in regard to the importance of this amendment bill to the people of my electorate, Aoraki, because it is largely a rural, provincial electorate. Many young families working on farms, and many young couples, particularly in our burgeoning dairy industry, need this assistance. They are self-employed\u201475 percent of those working in the agriculture sector are self-employed or close to it\u2014and those farming families were certainly screaming loud and clear that it was not fair to discriminate against the self-employed, and that they too should have the opportunity for assistance and support as young parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EFederated Farmers Vice President, Don Nicholson, expressed his delight when this bill went to the select committee, and described it as removing \u201Ca gross inequity that has been in place since taxpayer-funded paid parental leave for employees was introduced in 2002.\u201D Certainly, the farmer organisations were vociferous at that time in their condemnation of the exclusion of self-employed people. Those hard-working young parents, often with low incomes, felt extremely hard-done-by when they were excluded. I am very happy that they will now find they are amongst the lucky New Zealanders who will have this assistance when they have babies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIn the submission presented by Rural Women New Zealand its representatives were very concerned about the possible bureaucracies of this system. I can tell members that their concern was warranted. They would rather have had a lump sum payment\u2014we would say some tax relief to leave the money where it started\u2014and said that such a payment would be useful because there would not be all the machinations of working out how those people were actually going to take the benefit from paid parental leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIn summing up, I want to say that, yes, National is very supportive of the bill, and our philosophy has not changed. It does not matter what the Government says; we have not changed our philosophy. We saw inequity, and this Opposition party is very keen to address that inequity and support this bill, because it was simply not fair if the Government bias towards employees, which excluded the self-employed, was allowed to be perpetuated. I am therefore pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u00223e7fd4ab59c14304b706d4eff76cff0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e7fd4ab59c14304b706d4eff76cff0b\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is very pleased to be able to speak in support of this bill as it has been reported back to the House. I thank the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for the time it has put into the consideration of the bill, and into the result before us today. As I stated in the first reading of this bill and in other paid parental leave debates, the Green Party has always been in favour of paid parental leave applying to self-employed workers, and it is great that we are one step closer to that today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAs we debate these extensions to the bill, I also acknowledge the original work of the \u201Cmother of paid parental leave\u201D in this House, Laila Harr\u00E9, in shepherding the original bill through. That was no mean feat. The National Party and its doom-merchant allies at the time believed that civilisation as we knew it would end if the original bill were passed. Even Labour at the time was lukewarm on the bill, and ensured that it was far more restrictive than it should have been. I am pleased to hear today how far the National Party has come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe legislation has been extended once already, and now we are looking forward to further improving the Act so that eventually it will become legislation of which we can all be proud. Even after this bill is passed, improvements are still needed regarding eligibility for paid parental leave, the level of paid leave, and the length of leave that can be taken. A number of those issues will probably need to be addressed before New Zealand can ratify the relevant International Labour Organization conventions on paid parental leave, but at least we will now have a system that does not discriminate between workers, based on their employment status. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAlthough I was not a member of the select committee I did sit in on the committee that did the work originally, and many urban and rural submitters were rightly angry at the inequity of self-employed working parents being denied the ability to take up paid parental leave. The arguments put up then were around the complexities of dealing with the issues of self-employed workers. Although no legislation is simple, the fact that once the Government had the political will to make the changes, the complexity arguments, strangely enough, evaporated. Unlike some bills, this bill has been returned to the House largely intact, and it seems that really there was general support from most of the committee at least. The Minister of Labour, Ruth Dyson, and the Prime Minister both stated that the bill would become law on 1 July 2006, and I am pleased that we are on target to achieve this. Those women who timed their pregnancies to fit with the passing of this legislation\u2014and I believe that there were some\u2014will not be disappointed, unless their babies are rather too premature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn addition to extending paid parental leave to self-employed workers, the bill also deals with three other important issues. Firstly, it reduces from 12 months to 6 months the minimum period before an employee is entitled to a subsequent period of parental leave and a parental leave payment. I am pleased to see this change. It helps those parents who may be adopting again before a 12-month period, and also those parents who themselves have another child within 12 months of the earlier one being born. With the complications of premature birth, 6 months seems a good period to select for the purposes of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill gives power to the department to accept applications for paid parental leave even if there are irregularities in the application. This is very important as it is often those who are in the greatest need of paid parental leave who have difficulty in filling out the application forms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill gives review rights on paid parental leave to the Employment Relations Authority. This is also an important step to ensure there are cost-effective review and appeal mechanisms for the paid parental leave system, and the Green Party endorses this measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn regard to one of the suggested amendments to the bill made by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, I still have some concerns with new section 2AD in clause 8. Along with some submitters I was concerned that the original wording discriminates against those workers who, because of their precarious employment situation, move, even concurrently at times, between self-employed and employee status. My concern is that these workers\u2019 entitlements should be based on the sum total of their work, not just on one status or the other. Frankly, I am having difficulty deciding whether the proposed amendment of the committee to this provision makes the matter better or worse. I would be grateful if, at some stage during the second reading or Committee stage of the debate, the Minister or one of the select committee members could explain to the House the impact on these workers of the original clause and the amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill not do, and what still needs to be addressed if we are finally to have International Labour Organization - compliant legislation? First is the issue of the right of working mothers to breastfeed. I attempted in the previous paid parental amendment legislation to have this included, but was told it was outside the scope. It seems that it is outside the scope of this bill, as well. This is a real shame. In the mid-2003 review of the paid parental leave scheme the Human Rights Commission stated that providing a legal framework for the right to breastfeed at work need not be complex. It advocated that the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act would be the best vehicle for this. I strongly urge the Minister to ask her department to undertake work on this issue to develop further legislation as soon as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ESecond is the issue around wh\u0101ngai and other customary adoptions. The commentary on the bill acknowledges that there were submissions on these matters but again submitters were told that this was outside the scope of the bill. We are told by the Minister today that the Government is looking into this, but this is not good enough. The \u201Clooking at\u201D seems to be taking far too long. It is time for the Government to engage on this deeply and carefully in consultation with iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau, and with Pasifika and other cultural groups, with a view to extending the legislation to cover these situations as soon as practicable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThird is the continuing problem of casual and seasonal employees. These are the most vulnerable workers in this country who often miss out on many employment rights and, of course, also miss out on the right to paid parental leave. I join with Peter Brown, who constantly reminds this House about the plight of these workers, and acknowledge that although it may be too hard to deal with these workers solely through this legislation we should perhaps look at some other legislation and take a complete look at the situation of casual and vulnerable workers, and perhaps even begin to consider some slight reregulation of the labour market to eliminate the exploitative practices around casualisation. Where genuine casual and seasonal work is needed, we should be ensuring that those workers are entitled to all the rights that permanent workers enjoy, such as paid parental leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I want to reiterate that the Green Party is pleased to support this bill today and will do so again at the third reading. We are delighted that once the Minister of Labour and her Government acknowledged the discrimination against self-employed workers in the original bill they moved in a timely way to address these issues. We support the inclusion of the additional matters in the bill, especially the reduction from 12 months to 6 months of the entitlement period between births or adoptions, but we also recognise that there is still some way to go before this legislation can comply with all International Labour Organization standards. The Green Party will support any Government or member\u2019s bill in the future that further strengthens this legislation and finally allows us to ratify the International Labour Organization in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002205e7f27b263f4d8188c776635dd8b183\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205e7f27b263f4d8188c776635dd8b183\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to clarify a few points at the start of my contribution. The first one is that I, and New Zealand First, recognise that Laila Harr\u00E9 was the first member to bring this issue before Parliament. But, as I recall\u2014and I am 100 percent correct on this\u2014the thrust of her bill was that employers would pay for paid parental leave. That simply was not acceptable to New Zealand First. I remember we told her that that was not acceptable, and, in fairness, the Labour-led Government picked up the bill and made it much more workable, in our view, by funding it through taxpayer funds. That is the way it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe first bill was passed in 2002. New Zealand First supported that. We supported it wholeheartedly. We were told at that time that the self-employed were excluded because of complications, and what have you, but that they would be included in an amendment bill in the not too distant future. That amendment bill came about in 2004, but again it excluded the self-employed. We thought that was totally unfair. There is no real, major difficulty in including self-employed people in this legislation. As the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee found out, it is a relatively straightforward bill, and very little has been changed in the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESue Bradford, I think, referred to new section 2AD, inserted by clause 8. I hope I heard her correctly. She took issue with the fact that, as it is written here, a person who is both an employee and a self-employed person cannot get a combined entitlement. The select committee raised this issue\u2014indeed, I think I raised it first at the select committee. I might be proven to be wrong on that, but I know that virtually everybody on the select committee supported that concern. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that she will produce a Supplementary Order Paper at the Committee stage that will address that concern and allow people who are both employees and self-employed to combine their work efforts so that they can get the maximum entitlement. I think that will address Sue Bradford\u2019s concern. I hope it does. We have not seen the Supplementary Order Paper as yet, of course, but we will await it with some excitement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EFor the 4 years that we have had paid parental leave we have done a huge disservice to self-employed people\u2014a huge disservice. That is why New Zealand First is quite delighted that we are in the throes of passing this bill today. Basically, some very highly paid employed people have been entitled to paid parental leave and some relatively low-paid self-employed people have not had any entitlement. We think that is grossly unfair, and we really cannot understand why it has taken so long for the Government to get its act together and address this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI think the National Party member made some comment that this is basically a women\u2019s bill. Well, in essence, because the bill will affect mothers, I suppose one could accept that rationale. But, believe it or not, thousands upon thousands\u2014indeed, I suggest millions\u2014of men are concerned about this issue. I read recently\u2014and I wish I had brought it down to the House\u2014what a good start this measure gives young kiddies because they have a person at home who is being paid for so many weeks. That is reflected not only in the mother\u2019s viewpoint of the whole thing but also in the father\u2019s. This is a very important bill for fathers so I think it is wrong of us even to imply that it is really a women\u2019s bill, because that is not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has one degree of concern. We tried to get it addressed during the select committee consideration of this bill but were told that it was a bit difficult and that there were reasons for not doing it. Our concern relates to when a person goes on paid parental leave and the employer has to, by law, hold the job open for 12 months\u2014although the parent will get only 14 weeks\u2019 pay. The employer has to hold the job open for 12 months, but during that time the parent\u2014the mother or the father\u2014could take a job elsewhere. Indeed, we were given an example of a person who was working somewhere down south, for a competitor, I think. The original employer was holding the job open for 12 months only to discover that the person he was holding the job open for was working for his competitor. That seems to us to be totally unfair and totally against the spirit of the whole thing. It is still the law that the job has to be held open. Meanwhile, the employer may be filling the role with someone who may not be right up to speed\u2014who may not be of the right calibre or have the right experience for the job\u2014simply to keep the spot open for the original employee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First believes that that issue really must be addressed. The reason that people cannot indicate to their employer that they are leaving and might not return is that they would forfeit the payment. We think there must be a way of overcoming that. Employers have a right to know, as accurately as possible, whether a staff member is coming back. It would really brass employers off to find out that they had held a job open only to find that the employee had gone somewhere else. As I say, the example given to the select committee whereby someone was working for a competitor is quite a sore point with New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe are absolutely delighted that this bill is proceeding. We think it is in the spirit of the original bill of 2002. We question why it did not come to fruition a lot more promptly. There is no major complication in giving paid parental leave to self-employed people and we are absolutely delighted that we are doing this now, albeit 4 years too late. New Zealand First supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00225423b07475834afb84fa6c7763f92ad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225423b07475834afb84fa6c7763f92ad5\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou te Whare. Te Ururoa Flavell gave the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s support to this bill at its first reading because it was consistent with our recognition of the importance of financial security for wh\u0101nau. That financial security has never been more important than it is now, with record numbers of people on low incomes, record numbers of people on special benefits, record numbers of food parcels being distributed, and record numbers of children living in families that are below the poverty line. That financial security is especially urgent for M\u0101ori, particularly in light of the finding by the United Nations special rapporteur on the situation of human rights and fundamental freedoms of indigenous peoples, who noted the \u201Cunderlying institutional and structural discrimination that M\u0101ori have long suffered\u201D, and who also noted that disparities continue to exist between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori with regard to employment, income, health, housing, education, and the criminal justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI raise the special rapporteur\u2019s report because of the importance of this House recognising the huge impact that poverty has on our society, especially given that this Government refuses to accept the need to measure poverty or even to acknowledge a poverty line, as if refusing to acknowledge poverty will mean that people will not notice it exists. Well, folks, it does not take too much analysis to work out who is most affected by poverty, with or without a line in place. Gisborne, Whangarei, Whanganui, Porirua, and Rotorua are the regions with the highest levels of poverty and, surprise, surprise, they are all regions with high M\u0101ori populations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen times are tough any threat to employment is bound to increase pressure on a household, whether people are employed in the workforce, self-employed, in casual work, in multiple employment, or in seasonal employment. Our original doubts about the paid parental leave scheme were because self-employed people had been left out when a very significant portion of the population\u2014more than 360,000\u2014consider themselves to be self-employed. In fact, the number of M\u0101ori who are self-employed has increased by more than 200 percent over the past 20 years. So this matter has huge significance for the M\u0101ori Party, which is the only party to have taken up the challenge of defending M\u0101ori rights and advancing M\u0101ori interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOn another level, this whole House acknowledges the considerable anxiety being expressed by both Labour and National about the unprecedented growth in M\u0101ori political participation since the birth of the M\u0101ori Party. This is rightfully so\u2014and not before time too, I might add. Last month Labour Party president, Mike Williams, called in his M\u0101ori MPs and their staff to work out how to deal with the rise and rise of the M\u0101ori Party. He said there was an urgent need for Labour\u2019s M\u0101ori MPs to be \u201Cmaking more of an impression on the M\u0101ori electorate\u201D and getting organised. He also criticised what he called the sluggishness of Labour\u2019s M\u0101ori MPs, but was not prepared to accept that Labour\u2019s own insultingly bad treatment of its M\u0101ori MPs was a major reason why M\u0101ori are switching in droves to the M\u0101ori Party. Then over the weekend National\u2019s deputy leader, Gerry Brownlee, told a National Party conference that National needs to be preparing for the M\u0101ori Party to hold the balance of power at the next election. Again, that was an acknowledgment of the ever-increasing role that the M\u0101ori Party is playing in the politics of Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EYet, fascinating as all this is, the real challenge before the Government should not be in scheming to undermine the M\u0101ori Party but in preparing for the real challenge of an ever-increasing M\u0101ori population and the rapid rise of M\u0101ori who are both politically mature and self-employed. Thirteen percent of self-employed M\u0101ori are aged under 30, compared with only 6 percent of non-M\u0101ori, and that proportion can only be expected to rise, given the youthful profile of the M\u0101ori population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo how does all this relate to the legislation before the House today? To state the obvious, M\u0101ori make up 15 percent of the population and we are growing fast. As both Labour and National have recognised, M\u0101ori people and their M\u0101ori Party are here for the long haul. That means the Government needs to start planning to deal with the increasingly high numbers of M\u0101ori men and women who are self-employed, ensuring that they can access paid parental leave, and planning to enable those M\u0101ori who are self-employed casual, seasonal, or multi-job workers to access paid parental leave, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe House has been focusing on the impact of extending the paid parental leave scheme to the self-employed, but it would be remiss of us to leave this debate today without again challenging the promotion of work over and above the unique and vital role of parenting. This Government seems to have abandoned support for the critical role that good parenting plays by depriving beneficiary parents of any support from the Working for Families package and by the ruthless slashing of funding for PlunketLine from the end of next month. The M\u0101ori Party is committed to supporting all parents, whether or not they work, to ensure that all children in this country can rise out of the poverty trap to which 250,000 of them have been consigned by this Government\u2019s legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E I also come to this debate aware of the message of May Day yesterday\u2014to look out for a grave and imminent threat requiring immediate assistance, an alert used around the world to signal a life-threatening emergency, a call to distress, or a threat to life. The threat this May Day has never been more apparent, and we must take every step to provide the support and assistance that parents need to carry out the most vital role of any in our society. When parents have time for their children, so will those children be less likely to stray from their parents\u2019 values. We all know that good parenting is critical to building a stable society and that no matter how significant any of today\u2019s developments might be, that most important role of parenting must never be undermined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party will support the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Paid Parental Leave for Self-Employed Persons) Amendment Bill, but we also call for a wider debate on the protection of parenting as one of society\u2019s most important roles, for both M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00220572b9d33a8347c9b577c46a5db49ec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220572b9d33a8347c9b577c46a5db49ec2\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E When paid parental leave was introduced during the last Parliament in the year 2002, United Future immediately explicitly drew the attention of this House and of the nation to the need to extend the regime to the self-employed. Accordingly, we were delighted to see the Government act on that suggestion and introduce this bill. United Future acknowledged that there would be a measure of difficulty in extending paid parental leave to the self-employed, but to have not done so would have created a fundamental inequity, if not an unlawful discrimination, in favour of employees and against the self-employed. I am pleased to signal United Future\u2019s strong support for this bill and I hope that all parties may come to a similar conclusion. Every speaker so far in this debate, I note, has signalled that his or her party will be supporting the bill, so perhaps we will see it go through on a unanimous vote. The only members we have not heard from\u2014and I suspect we will not be hearing from them\u2014are the ACT party members, so we will have to wait and see what happens in regard to those members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAfter all, the arrival of a new baby is a wonderful event for the parents, whether they are self-employed or employed by others. United Future would argue that it is of great importance to the nation as a whole that we ensure that that new child, that new life, is given the best possible start in this world. Each baby born represents the future of our nation. Collectively, children comprise the future of our nation and, therefore, they are our most important investment in the social capital of our country going forward. In that respect I support many of the comments made by Hone Harawira, the previous speaker from the M\u0101ori Party, concerning the need for us as a nation and as a Parliament to ensure that we give the greatest possible support to those men and women who are undertaking life\u2019s most important function or job\u2014that is, to raise the children of the new generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnited Future\u2019s dream is to see that every child in this country is given the best possible opportunity to grow up and make a meaningful contribution to our society. Therefore, it is right and just that we give paid parental leave to all parents, regardless of whether they are employed by others or self-employed, or whether they are beginning a family through the natural birth process or adopting a child. Although I am not suggesting we do this, there is a philosophical argument that when it comes to the parents of adopted children, we should certainly ensure that they receive the same support as we give to parents whose children are not adopted, because it costs a great deal of money to adopt a child. To do that would recognise and include the reality of the cost of adopting children to some extent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIt was for the same sorts of reasons that United Future supported wholeheartedly the Working for Families package. The arrival of a new child is the beginning of a decades-long process of two human beings called parents who are\u2014hopefully\u2014both involved with that child for decades to come, and we need to ensure that they have the financial means to do that. Providing paid parental leave is the start. Therefore, it is important that this Parliament provides ongoing support for parents as they undertake that very important work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EContrary to some of the comments made in 2002 around the issue of the self-employed not having paid parental leave\u2014made mainly, as I recall, by members of the Labour Government, who have, I think, travelled some considerable distance on this matter since then\u2014there was a sort of underlying thought that self-employed people are normally better off financially than employed people. I advise the House that during my term as an MP, I have spoken about this issue to quite a number of self-employed people, including self-employed women, who employ sometimes two or three other people. Having done a whole day\u2019s work running their business, they sit down at the dining room table every night to look after all the compliance costs that we, as a House, have lumbered on those small-business people. Some of those women have told me that they have figured out that, at the end of the day, they are actually taking home less money than some of their own staff. That is the reality for many of those people. They are highly motivated people. They have chosen to be self-reliant and to start businesses, some of which, hopefully, grow to become larger companies and great successes, but in the meantime it is really hard graft. So it would be completely discriminatory and completely unjust if such people were not to be recognised for doing that and not given paid parental leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ETo those members of the Labour Government who come from a union background, and whose speeches in the House sometimes proceed on the assumption that all employees have been immaculately conceived and that all employers are fundamentally evil people, I say that they really need to get in touch with the real world, because that is not the reality. Many of those valiant New Zealanders who set out to run their own business, be it a hairdressing salon or whatever it is, really deserve the support of this House every bit as much as those people who, in some ways, have taken the easy option\u2014like all of us in this House have\u2014of having their pay packet paid for by other people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWith those few remarks I am happy to signal once again our strong support for this bill. I would have preferred the amendment to be introduced a little earlier in the process, but it is better late than never. We think this is a very worthwhile, forward-looking step for the future of our nation and particularly for parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00220ed035ea935b478ab70f556921f9bfe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ed035ea935b478ab70f556921f9bfe2\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to support this amendment to the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act. Members are right when they say this amendment has been a long time in coming. It certainly has not just come out of the blue, as Dr Wayne Mapp would have us believe. Of course, this bill was announced before the election, and even before that. When the last amendment to the Act was going through this House and through the select committee, it was indicated that this amendment was coming. But, as we all know, it is a lot more complicated to provide paid parental leave for the self-employed than it is to provide it for those who are employed by others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe difference between the National Party and the Labour Government on this issue is that we have never used that factor as an excuse to do nothing. We have never said that we would hold off on paid parental leave altogether until we had covered absolutely everything. We recognised the importance of paid parental leave to parents in this country and, therefore, we started with those people who were easier to draft legislation for and now we have then extended it further. When we decided\u2014as promised in the election campaign\u2014that we would extend paid parental leave and reduce the amount of time that a woman had to be in employment before she received it, we were still not ready to go forward with the amendments for the self-employed. But we put the bill to the House anyway, because we wanted to put those changes in place. Here we are now, as promised, providing very important legislation for those in self-employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003ESome members of the National Party love to misquote us. I do not know whether their research unit is not doing its work properly or whether they are deliberately trying to mislead this House, but they always try to say that Labour members have said they would not support paid parental leave for the self-employed\u2014that it would be introduced over our dead bodies. In fact, that is not true. What we said was that we would not support a levy on employers in order to pay for parental leave\u2014that that would be done over our dead bodies. I am sure the National Party supports that position, because it would be very difficult to provide paid parental leave to the self-employed if it was paid for by an employer levy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to ask whether, after this debate, we will even know what the National Party believes about paid parental leave. A number of members have made 10-minute speeches in which they spoke for 9 minutes and 50 seconds about how bad paid parental leave is, how it is welfare, and how they do not like it or support it, saying it is terrible and they never supported it. Then, in the last 10 seconds of their speeches, they have said: \u201CThe National Party will be supporting the bill. Thank you.\u201D I look forward to seeing members of the National Party who have been very outspoken in previous years about how they do not support paid parental leave, saying it is immoral and is welfare, stand up today and cast their vote for paid parental leave. Why will they do so? Because those members know that it is popular and that it is helping New Zealand families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIf any bill shows how visionless and divided the National Party is, it is this bill. Let us be clear that the National Party does not support paid parental leave. It did not support it in the 1990s\u2014it never introduced it. People now sitting in Opposition who said then that they did not support paid parental leave will stand up today and vote for it. If any bill shows just how divided the National Party is\u2014because we know there are Opposition members who do support it, and who have come out and said they wished the National Party\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cc82b8685ba4ad5bc4f9e34d6b3f2c4\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Who? Katherine Rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a56938ddc7b4d688795d77dbb59ad66\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Prove it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea21ff1da1f64b9f8b4a88cee69bfd53\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: I can. There have been numerous quotes from Katherine Rich, when she had her child, saying she wished the National Party would support paid parental leave. Marie Hasler, a former National MP, urged her party to rethink its stance on paid parental leave. Members have stood up today and talked for nearly 10 minutes about how much they disliked this bill, and they then went on to say they would support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EPansy Wong says this is a terrible bill. Well, maybe Ms Wong would like to tell us why the party she belongs to is supporting the bill, if it is so terrible. I say to the National Party that if it wants to be in Government, it will have to start by working out what it actually believes in, and then vote according to that. I have no doubt that Mr David Bennett, who will get up next, will give us another 9 minutes and 50 seconds on how bad this bill is. Then he will sit down, after telling us that the National Party plans to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022526b8a47a7a047198abaa8088267d56e\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: At least they are saying something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289f0c3f364bb4bd1b4b46d76775c5e66\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Anne Tolley put out a press release that stated how bad she thought paid parental leave was, and how she would never support it, but today she will stand up and cast the National Party\u2019s votes for this bill. I say to the people of New Zealand that there is a word for that, and they need to think about that very carefully if they ever consider casting their vote for the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f92143173e51485f802c1f8382c43064\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f92143173e51485f802c1f8382c43064\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to read my first line so Moana gets it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d9dada75af04348819013d1c1a4c6de\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will refer to another member by his or her full name or title. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad8706325ce240a99e6fda26d51217cb\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Just so that Moana Mackey understands it, it is with great pleasure that the National Party supports the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Paid Parental Leave for Self-Employed Persons) Amendment Bill in its second reading. This is not a 9-minute speech against the bill that will come to a conclusion in favour of it for the sake of public opinion. It has actually been a pleasure to be part of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and to work with our Labour and New Zealand First colleagues. Putting this legislation together has been very successful and very enjoyable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIn coming to this Parliament, I saw an institution where people do not work together. This is one bill on which people have worked together. However, we have some major problems. Why has it taken 4 years for us to all work together on this bill? The answer is quite simple: Labour did not know about it. It did not conceive of doing anything to help the self-employed. Why should it help the self-employed? The self-employed all vote National\u2014that is what Labour thinks! But Labour found that a lot of people in its unions were self-employed. Those people came forward and said they were getting hammered by a piece of legislation that did not support them. So what was the result? Labour decided to come up with a bill for self-employed people, as well. So it did. But it was full of holes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIf one looks at the commentary on the bill, one will find at least four parts of it that say Labour will look at it again. All Minister Dyson could do today was read the commentary. There was no heart or soul. There was no idea of what the concept of paid parental leave for the self-employed actually meant. All we got were comments that Labour would look at those issues when it had to: \u201CWe\u2019ll do a Supplementary Order Paper when and if we need to do it.\u201D Why did it not do that when it put the bill together? It was because it did not know. It has no concept of what it is like to go out and earn money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill involved a number of attributes that as constituent MPs we had seen at a practical level. Earlier this year a gentleman came into my office and told me a story that we took to the select committee. The story was an important part of the redrafting of the bill. He was a solo father at the time he came and saw me. About 9 months ago his wife injured herself while she was pregnant. She had a highly paid job at the local Waikato Hospital, and she was on accident compensation for the last 4 months of her pregnancy. Tragically, soon after giving birth to her third child she was killed in a motor vehicle accident. The solo father sought to transfer the paid parental leave entitlement to himself. The Inland Revenue Department would pay paid parental leave based only on the lower income of the accident compensation payments, not the higher possible total income on a pro rata basis. Effectively, he received the parental leave payments, but at a lower rate due to her being on accident compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe have taken this case to the Minister and we have not received a satisfactory resolution at this stage. We also took it to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. The Department of Labour and the select committee took it on board and rewrote the bill to bring the appropriate changes into effect. I ask members to look at new section 71C(b)(ia) in clause 20. That provision clarifies parental leave so that where a self-employed person takes parental leave before the baby\u2019s due date then it is not included when calculating a self-employed person\u2019s earnings. So they can be taking parental leave before the baby is born, and the parental leave payment will be based on the time in income, not on the time out of employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThat is an important change to the bill that Labour did not recognise, because it did not understand the practical implications. It is an important change that we also need to see in the employer-employee section for situations where people may be in an accident compensation situation like that and not receiving their full entitlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAnother example that has not been sorted out by this legislation was brought to us by Business New Zealand. It brought to us the case where many permanent employees on parental leave may be replaced by an employee on a fixed-term agreement. If that employee\u2014the one who is the replacement\u2014is pregnant, then the new employee will be eligible for parental leave during the term of the agreement. Business New Zealand submitted that in those cases the agreement cannot be terminated on grounds other than those in the agreement. So when the temporary employee has finished parental leave, he or she will be able to return to the job to complete the remainder of the term of the agreement. Business New Zealand was concerned that a second temporary replacement will need to be found to replace the first temporary employee. It submitted that this situation could not arise if the eligibility criteria still operated in terms of hours worked over the 12 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis Government has failed to look into the situation and deliver anything in the bill to cover that situation. The New Zealand First - Labour Government thought this issue was not big enough to warrant amending the legislation. That is symptomatic of a Government that has no concept of economic policy. This Government has squandered an economic future that was built over the last 20 years. We are in a situation now of zero growth over the last 6 months. It is a classic tax-and-spend, left-wing Government that has strangled our economy. Belated attempts like this to recognise the self-employed show Labour\u2019s contempt for those who are trying to build a better New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E But what can one expect from two political parties like Labour and New Zealand First? New Zealand First\u2019s economic campaign during the election was to buy back companies like Telecom so that it could give cheap rates for telephone calls to some of the potential voters. That is the content and extent of New Zealand First\u2019s economic policy, and that is why it has butchered this economy through a failure to recognise the productive heartland of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EPeople such as the self-employed have waited too long for fair treatment and a just basis with other New Zealanders. This Government has spoken about the concept of fairness\u2014that was one of its first words\u2014but it has left self-employed people out. How fair is that? Fairness is when you deliver for all New Zealanders and then you can have a situation where the strength of parenting that has been identified by a number of parties today is actually met through legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe have some other issues in this legislation that show that fairness is not top of Labour\u2019s mind. A key one is adoption, especially in the M\u0101ori and Pacific Island communities. It recognises adoption in the traditional sense but not from those communities. In this legislation all we get is: \u201CWe\u2019ll deal with it later.\u201D Will it be 4 years before you deliver fairness to people in those communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7782b45e85946bfb74f7ce0c0fedd79\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You are bringing the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e80f5065b14142929c319042b194ba\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: But such practicalities do not faze a Labour Government. It has not looked after the people the Green Party so rightly identified as being temporary and seasonal employees. It does not worry about fairness there. It will deal with it later at some point in the future when it has to. That is simply not good enough. The people who made submissions on this bill made them on the basis of fairness and equity for all New Zealanders. They wanted to see people have that opportunity and start in life. It is with great encouragement that we support those families and we look forward to the passing of this legislation for the benefit of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3ec63886a074fc089c48225b208b81c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3ec63886a074fc089c48225b208b81c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I did not want to interrupt the honourable member\u2019s speech, but I seek leave of the House to table the New Zealand First policy that embraces our economic policy at the last election, in order that the member might learn a little bit about what has happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664826aa1aa14469b5fdd161f4719b71\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It is not really a point of order, but you are entitled to seek leave anyway. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6f453af5ad040d18ad8d442adbf629b\u0022\u003EEducation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9f1fd3e97cf4bdcb22f05292e99a691\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b57781f0e858444fa5daf40c1e7ccbf7\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbaf4ab7592f4516bc62022b4188f19a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbaf4ab7592f4516bc62022b4188f19a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, I ask you to excuse my quiet speaking; I have a touch of the flu and my voice is not functioning as well as it might normally. That does not diminish the importance of the issues that we will deal with in this legislation. We intend to lay down a number of amendments to this legislation, because although there are aspects of it that we support\u2014for instance, the change in the funding for the regulatory environments in early childhood care\u2014we believe this is an opportunity for the New Zealand education system to take another step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn that respect, National will table amendments in this part that legislate for national standards in literacy and numeracy. We believe that every child and every parent in New Zealand should be provided with the information that tells them what progress is being made in the fundamental competencies of citizenship. At the moment a wide range of testing mechanisms is used in New Zealand schools. Generally, they are used in a positive way to lift the achievement of our young people. We do have some instances of national standards already. For instance, in the National Certificate of Educational Achievement one of its positive aspects has been the institution of national standards in literacy and numeracy, so that someone aged 15 or 16, for instance, can get university entrance only if he or she has achieved a certain standard of literacy as defined by the tests laid out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s amendments will provide for the maximum flexibility. They will write into the National Education Guidelines a requirement for national standards and also a requirement in the annual reports of schools for a statement in which schools provide an analysis of the progress of students, measured against those standards. I emphasise \u201Cprogress\u201D, because it is the progress of the child in which we are vitally interested, not the standard or the testing system in themselves. The amendments are couched within the National Education Guidelines, because that is where the Minister will determine the national standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI imagine there will be a fairly extensive debate within the education sector should these amendments pass, because there will be a range of views over whether it is appropriate to set the national standards at year 4 or year 8\u2014the middle of primary school or the end of primary school\u2014and over just which mechanism should be used for those standards. I myself would prefer that the Minister designate benchmarks within the existing tests, because some of those are widely used. Progressive achievement tests and asTTle are well known to teachers, and are used extensively. They generate useful data, and are understood and often welcomed by teachers. If the Minister designated benchmarks within those existing tests, that would meet the definition of national standards as laid down in this legislation. That is why the term is used in the legislation in the plural. There does not have to be one particular standard; there can be a range of national standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESome of my other colleagues will introduce amendments to other aspects of this legislation. I hope the Minister will welcome a sensible discussion, in particular around the regulatory regime for early childhood education, because we believe that can be improved. The Education and Science Committee looked at that issue in some detail and there is now an opportunity, as a result of that reflection, to improve the regulatory structure so that we can maintain the variety and the choice of provision in early childhood education. We will also provide an amendment about the use of the National Student Number. We are broadly supportive of the concept, but we believe it can be more effectively used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9b753c8584a449e9f274e283913b712\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9b753c8584a449e9f274e283913b712\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I, too, want to congratulate the people who have been behind some of these amendments. I would like to cut to the chase, as it were, and speak about the National Education Guidelines and the amendment to insert new clause 5A that the Hon Bill English is moving to amend section 60A by inserting after paragraph (b): \u201C(ba) national standards, which are standards for literacy and numeracy applicable to all students in an age or year group:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E How can it be that we should not be supporting this? In a modern world we need to know how our kids are doing in literacy and numeracy first and foremost. So it goes without saying that we should have at least something in the Act, something in the regulations that this auspicious organisation here\u2014the Parliament of New Zealand\u2014sets out. But have we got that? No, we have not. We do not have any guidelines. We do not have any standards of literacy or numeracy\u2014the two key things that have allowed young people through the ages to get on in life, make choices, have options in front of them, go ahead, go to work, have families, bring up their children, and so on and so forth. Literacy and numeracy are the two things that make a nation full of educated people go on, get jobs, and do the things that we take for granted. We owe it to these young people to make sure that there are standards for literacy and numeracy\u2014and that they are applicable not just to some, but to all age groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ESo we in the National Party do not have any reason to believe that we should not be supporting these amendments from the Hon Bill English. It is absolutely crucial that we do. We also say upfront that we will be supporting the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s numerous amendments. It goes without saying, for me especially, that we should take on board the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s amendments in terms of the use or the finished use of M\u0101ori land given over for educational purposes. I think that that is an honourable stance, and we will certainly be supporting that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThere are others issues that we must debate during the Committee stage. Section 317, in clause 43, deals with early childhood regulations, and we will be getting to that later on. I can tell the Committee that we will be supporting the amendment from the M\u0101ori Party, essentially for one reason, and one reason only. Many people in the M\u0101ori Party and the National Party have had experience in running early childhood centres. They have had operational experience in k\u014Dhanga and the like, and we know that at the end of the day, if there is one thing we can do to inhibit a young person\u2019s education, it is to throw more regulations at the centres. If more and more regulations are thrown at the centres, then all that the teachers and the people who run the centres will be doing is walking around with a clipboard making sure that their regulations are covered and checked off. By the end of the day, when they have finished all the bureaucratic nonsense, the children at the centres\u2014whom we are all supposed to be there for\u2014will not be educated in any way, shape, or form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThere is a need for standards, and there is a need for regulations, but over-the-top, bureaucratised and sanitised places of learning will not do anything for the young people or for our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca48cce130dc4ada991d52172e3700d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca48cce130dc4ada991d52172e3700d9\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to pick up where the Hon Tau Henare left off, and that is section 317 in clause 43\u2014subsection (2)(b), I think\u2014about the prescribed criteria. I have to note first of all that at the Education and Science Committee there was no minority report from National over this particular issue. Only one group brought it to the attention of the Education and Science Committee, and that was the Early Childhood Council. Even that group\u2014and I have its submission here\u2014explained that currently, before this bill goes through, there are major powers to set minimum standards by Order in Council, and these are expanded in section 317(2)(a). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe new powers largely incorporate what is already in the Desirable Objectives and Practices. The Ministry of Education is talking about collapsing the Desirable Objectives and Practices, but the interesting thing\u2014or the ironic thing\u2014about the member who has just resumed his seat is that the last Desirable Objectives and Practices went through a Cabinet where that member was actually sitting around the table and where the same sorts of prescribed criteria as in this particular bill were talked about. The fact is the issue was not raised very strongly at the select committee, although it has been brought up since. In fact, I was the person who raised the issue during the second reading debate\u2014that there were inherent dangers in the bill, because we were actually giving the bureaucracy, the ministry, extraordinary powers so that it could have in fact said that all early childhood centres had to be painted blue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First said no\u2014that that was going too far and that we did need to do something about this. So we talked to the Minister of Education and we said it should not be the Secretary for Education who promulgates the prescribed criteria\u2014it should be the Minister. Secondly, we said it has to come under parliamentary scrutiny, and to do that I have put forward an amendment that will ensure that it comes under the purview of the Regulations Review Committee but does not have to be drawn up by parliamentary counsel. In other words, we want to steer clear of the \u201Clawyer-ese\u201D that may be there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI refer now to the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s amendments. I know full well that the ultimate agenda of the Early Childhood Council was to get to that point\u2014that is, to get rid of prescribed criteria altogether. I have talked to people about self-locking gates on pools. The Education Review Office, when I was the Minister responsible for it, used to run around and check these in schools, but, in fact, schools did not require them by regulation. It picked up many schools that did not have self-locking gates and, in other words, posed a danger to students. New Zealand First is not prepared to have a regime in which there is the necessity for some prescribed criteria in order to ensure that students are protected. If we are talking about guidelines only, then early childhood centres can choose to ignore them or pay lip-service to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI have to talk about the discussion document that is out there. It talks about most of the criteria actually being descriptions. But there is still a need in some cases to be prescriptive, and I have just given members the example of self-locking gates. Some of the draft criteria will have to be prescriptive in nature\u2014and this is in the Desirable Objectives and Practices. For example, the ratio of toilets to children. Should that be prescribed or just described? Should there just be a general standard\u2014centres can have as many children per toilet as they like\u2014or should the number to prescribed? What about having an approved fire evacuation scheme? Should that be prescribed or should it just be set down as best practice? What is actually happening\u2014and it has been going on for a number of years\u2014is that this draft code is being developed, and it is a combination of descriptive and prescriptive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI will give members an example. One of the things required is that there be a space for a sick child, where that sick child can be temporarily isolated from other children, can lie down comfortably, and can be supervised. The prescriptive part of that is that there must be a space available for that sick child. The descriptive part, which can be done in a variety of ways according to the particular provider, is the next three bullet points, and there is no prescription on those\u2014how the child is to be temporarily isolated, how the child can lie down comfortably, or how he or she is to be supervised. They are the descriptive parts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has negotiated with the Minister, and the Minister has certainly played ball. He has seen that there is an issue here and put up an amendment whereby instead of the secretary being the person responsible for the prescribed criteria, the Minister is. We believe that will mean people will be a whole lot more careful and we will not get silly prescriptions. Secondly, if our amendment is passed, the criteria will come under the purview of the Regulations Review Committee, and that will mean there will be a level of scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u002271c19e5948a7452c8332c0de49930341\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271c19e5948a7452c8332c0de49930341\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in opposition to the bill, but in doing so I commend the chairman of the Education and Science Committee for the outstanding job he has done, at least in getting the bill to this point. I believe that if the Government is willing to listen carefully to what members on the Opposition side of the Chamber have to say, the Government will find that useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI would like to address a number of issues in Part 1. The first is the National Student Number, the proposal that every student passing through the schooling system should have a number that goes along with that student. I will be moving an amendment to that, because I think the problem with the provision is typical of where Governments of the left consistently get it wrong when they deal with education. They forget about parents and the interest they have in their children\u2019s learning. In terms of the National Student Number, my amendment seeks to expand the definition of \u201Cauthorised user\u201D to include parents, guardians, or caregivers of children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe interpretation clause provides for all sorts of agencies, such as the Ministry of Education, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, the Tertiary Education Commission, Career Services, and goodness knows which other agencies to have access to that information but not for parents to have access. It strikes me there is a huge irony in all of that. The groups of people who control the Government schooling system and who now seek to control, I have to say, the early childhood education sector, such as the ministry, the Government bureaucracies\u2014like the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Education Review Office\u2014the teachers unions, and the teacher-training providers do not have the same aspirations and ambitions for children that their parents have for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EA really interesting situation has been allowed to develop over the years, whereby now it is the parents who are expressing academic ambition. It is parents, from all backgrounds and in all communities, who, to use a phrase often used by critics of mine against me, have an \u201Celitist\u201D view of what they want for their children. Parents want there to be academic excellence in learning, reading, mathematics, science, and history. Those aspirations and ambitions are not matched by those that exist in the Government bureaucracies. For that reason, I believe it is important that parents have the same standing as those bureaucracies in having access to information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EMy amendment also proposes a new paragraph itemising the measuring of students\u2019 educational achievement in literacy and numeracy as a specific purpose for which an authorised user may use the National Student Number. None of us doubts the absolute importance of literacy and numeracy. All of us, on both sides of the Chamber, are concerned about the statement made by the Education Review Office in its June 2005 report to Parliament that up to 20 percent of children are not experiencing success at school. We may argue as to whether the figure is 20 percent, 15 percent, 18 percent, or whatever percentage it may be, but the fact is that 1 percent would be 1 percent too much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe Minister has stated in the Chamber\u2014and I agree with him\u2014that at long last, with the National Certificate of Educational Achievement and the provision for minimum literacy and numeracy standards, we have a measure as to how well our students are doing. For the first time, we have a measure. For the first time, we have data that tells us, for example, the percentage of students in a particular school that is achieving minimum level 1 standards in literacy and numeracy. It is vital that that information is readily available to parents, just as it is vital that it is used to inform teaching practice and to ensure that just having the data on its own is not an end in itself. We must actually do something with that data to ensure that children who are not achieving success at school do so. I am one of those educators who believe that all children are capable of learning. I am one of those people who believe that if a child can learn to talk, he or she can be taught to read. It cannot be acceptable on either side of the Chamber that we continue to allow whichever figure it is of our children to pass through the education system unable to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI turn my attention to the early childhood education provisions in Part 1. I think the same thing is happening as has happened in the schooling sector: a consolidation of power and authority in Wellington. Just as that has happened with regard to schools, and just as we are seeing the initiative, innovation, and creativity being squeezed out of schools because of the compliance-driven requirements of the Government, so we will see the same thing happen to early childhood education centres. That must be resisted. We know that in whichever educational authority one looks at anywhere in the world, one sees that centralisation promotes mediocrity. It never has and never can promote excellence. Yet once we start that process of centralising a system and see that it does not work, we centralise it further, and then more and more. We must avoid doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI have a question for the New Zealand Educational Institute, the union that represents kindergarten teachers. I ask where it is speaking in support of kindergartens. My wife and I had four children, and they were kindergarten kids. I pay tribute to the teachers at Waterloo Kindergarten in Lower Hutt and Taradale Kindergarten in Napier, where our sons and daughters went. I think of the number of times we dug the sandpit and painted the roof. We did our share. We became involved in the community, because it suited our family\u2019s circumstances. Let us be very, very careful that as a result of what is proposed in the bill, inadvertently or otherwise, we do not squeeze kindergartens out of the system. The kindergarten provision works for a lot of families. It works for those families that want to have their children at home with a parent for some of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI cannot help but reflect\u2014and if Government members were quiet, they might like to reflect as well\u2014that if it were a National Government that was proposing this provision, people like me would be burnt in effigy on the forecourt of Parliament. I ask the teacher unions why there is such selectivity. We know the answer to that: unfortunately, the teacher unions have let themselves be sucked into the business of supporting political parties of the left. They have let themselves get caught up in trade union agendas, and that has become more important than the quality of learning for children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI also want to refer to the provision for the protection of teachers. That protection is very, very much needed. The Minister, in a very good speech made at lunchtime today honouring the excellent teachers of New Zealand, commented that individual teachers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022395ee05a45d84ea89d3ebc232bd7a65a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022395ee05a45d84ea89d3ebc232bd7a65a\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support, with all the sincerity I can, the amendment to insert a new clause 5A, which is proposed by my good colleague the Hon Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI suppose I have a real interest in this matter because the National Education Guidelines and the National Administration Guidelines were matters that I was very heavily involved in in the early 1990s as Minister of Education. Over the years it has been a cause of some concern to me that although the new school curriculum documents established at the time set out achievement goals across the core school curriculum, the concept of developing those into standards that, in certain of the key areas, could be perhaps more appropriately monitored was something that I am not sure ever developed quite to fruition. I think most schools continue to say that the National Education Guidelines and the curriculum statements that form part of them are still pretty useful bases for our curriculum, but I think many people feel it is time now to see whether we can find a way, in the key areas of literacy and numeracy, to move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI note that the amendment my good colleague the Hon Bill English is moving is very wisely worded to make sure it does not try to impose inappropriate standards on schools. This amendment is a very generalised statement. It states: \u201Cnational standards, which are standards for literacy and numeracy applicable to all students in an age or year group:\u201D. It leaves to further development the actual specific identification of those standards. What is also vital is his amendment to insert a new clause 6A, which proposes that \u201Cschools provide an analysis of the progress of students measured against any national standard in literacy and numeracy published under section 60A(ba):\u201D. That is the bit covered by the first part of the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo I urge the Committee to give the amendment its support. I think it is a carefully worded amendment. It is not trying to impose a whole new thing on our schools. It is a sensible development out of the existing National Education Guidelines. It leaves flexibility for appropriate standards to be developed out of the current national curriculum statements\u2014the relevant ones for literacy or English language, and for numeracy. I think it has been very carefully thought through. I would like to congratulate my colleague Bill English on the work that has gone into it. I hope members will see fit to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis issue is so fundamentally important. So much learning is simply limited if students do not develop at an early age capability in literacy and numeracy. I do not think that is being in any way unrealistic. Most people who think sensibly about education would accept that education is very important. Let me give an example to show what I mean. If one thinks about it, one realises that one cannot think without language. Someone once said that it is only through finding the words that one discovers what one thinks. I suggest that the Minister of Education tries to think without language, tries to think without words. It is not possible. If we want a thinking citizenry, if we want people who are able to think and work through their lives, and to lead their lives to the fullest, they must have literacy\u2014they must have language. The sophistication of one\u2019s ability to think, and think clearly, depends totally on one\u2019s language. We cannot think in a vacuum of language. Likewise, we cannot think about mathematical concepts without having the numeracy framework within which to think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI am not saying this based on some obscure view of someone who has not been involved in education. I was Opposition spokesperson on education for 3 years, and Minister of Education for almost 6 years. On the basis of all that experience, and also 13 years at university myself, I urge the Committee to give this amendment its support. It is a wise amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u002218afa07357dc40d6b9c2c1013f94d33f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218afa07357dc40d6b9c2c1013f94d33f\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E The M\u0101ori Party has a Supplementary Order Paper on the Education Amendment Bill, and I would like to speak to some of the matters raised in it. Clause 6(1) inserts new section 70A covering education lands. The M\u0101ori Party amendment adds three new provisions: firstly, when the Minister of Education declares that land is no longer needed for educational purposes, it is a requirement that the Minister offer the land back to the former M\u0101ori owners; secondly, if the land was gifted it must be returned at no cost or charge; and, thirdly\u2014and this is quite an interesting one from Judge Eddie Durie\u2014if the land was not gifted, the chief executive of Land Information New Zealand must take into account the circumstances in which the land was acquired from the M\u0101ori owner. As acknowledged by Eddie Durie, the circumstances are critical as, for many wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B, the land was given because of the importance of education. It was not given as a sale contract in the normal sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI would like to talk about section 154A(5), inserted by clause 30. We are seeking support for a new subsection (5), but I will quote the existing new subsection: \u201CNo school may have its designation as a Kura Kaupapa Maori removed unless the Minister has first consulted with te kaitiaki o Te Aho Matua (as identified under section 155B).\u201D The question of the diagnostic criteria for kura kaupapa M\u0101ori has been debated for some time now\u2014since it began\u2014and it has been the cause of some concern to those who have created this model of school for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn order to establish kura kaupapa M\u0101ori, k\u014Dhanga wh\u0101nau went outside the education system at incredible cost to themselves financially, physically, and spiritually. They have built schools outside the system, and were given no assistance at all initially. For 5 years we existed outside the school system, before Tomorrow\u2019s Schools, and the change of our educational arrangements, when we became a bona fide school under the Education Act of 1989. But, after that, once a school type becomes legislated for, the Minister then owns it and can prescribe criteria for the school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe whole reason we stayed outside the education system to establish the school was to establish the special character\u2014that is, Te Aho Matua. Te Aho Matua is a set of M\u0101ori philosophies that guides the teaching of the school. Essentialy, kura kaupapa M\u0101ori is an alternative education programme for all New Zealanders, but it is specially designed for M\u0101ori to cater for the other Treaty partner\u2014the M\u0101ori people, their culture, their beliefs, their spiritual system, their knowledge, their language, and their customs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe found that Ministers and other people were designating schools to be kura kaupapa M\u0101ori when they did not meet the criteria by which the Act described them, so we took Te Aho Matua and brought it here, to the House. The Hon Tau Henare, when he was Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, pushed it through so that we could get Te Aho Matua passed into legislation. This meant that the only people who could approve a kura kaupapa M\u0101ori as being bona fide were those who were in charge of that philosophy, Te Aho Matua. Te Aho Matua philosophy is very broad. It can be applied to various tribal customs, and so on, but it is essentially from the knowledge basket of M\u0101ori. It was really important that that be legislated for, and it was legislated for. As a result, schools that want to become kura now have to adhere to Te Aho Matua in order to be a bona fide kura kaupapa M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESo we would like to propose that the amendment be that no school may have its designation changed from, or to, a kura kaupapa M\u0101ori unless the Minister has first sought the approval of the kaitiaki o Te Aho Matua. That is in section 155B, \u201CTe Kaitiaki o Te Aho Matua\u201D of the principal Act. Really, it is a way of protecting that school type. Otherwise, why did our people stay outside the system for 5 years, at great cost to themselves, to create this model? That is a very important concern for us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe other concern is about k\u014Dhanga reo, and we support the Early Childhood Council\u2019s call\u2014in opposition to what has been described over here\u2014for an amendment to section 317(2)(b) in clause 43 to ensure that criteria are not prescribed but are merely guidelines. We have heard the arguments for them being prescribed, and there are some good ones\u2014safety and things like that. But, at the end of the day, prescription stifles innovation and development, especially things M\u0101ori\u2014things that M\u0101ori people know but those who are in authority do not know. Therefore, we often find ourselves being shut out by prescription. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EFinally, I refer to sections 309 and 310 in clause 43. These amendments are about properly recognising the unique identity of k\u014Dhanga reo in the early childhood sector. Te K\u014Dhanga Reo National Trust are concerned that the unique identity of k\u014Dhanga reo is compromised in this bill, because it categorises k\u014Dhanga reo as being early childhood education providers, when their scope and purpose is wider than education and is wh\u0101nau centred. We had a great deal of difficulty when we set up k\u014Dhanga reo. When we said: \u201CThis is k\u014Dhanga.\u201D, we were told: \u201CNo, you\u2019re a play centre.\u201D When we said: \u201CNo, we\u2019re k\u014Dhanga.\u201D, we were told: \u201CNo, you\u2019re an early childhood centre.\u201D When we said: \u201CNo, we\u2019re k\u014Dhanga.\u201D, we were told: \u201CWell, you\u2019re a kindergarten.\u201D, and we said: \u201CNo, we\u2019re k\u014Dhanga.\u201D The essential thing about k\u014Dhanga is that it is a M\u0101ori concept. K\u014Dhanga means a nest. It is a nest concept, a wh\u0101nau concept; it is a concept that nurtures the child in a different knowledge base. So we are concerned that the identity of the k\u014Dhanga remains distinct to that M\u0101ori definition. The proposed amendments mean that k\u014Dhanga can be recognised as being part of the sector without their being categorised in definitions that do not fit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ETe K\u014Dhanga Reo National Trust also has an issue with the regulations that will come out of this bill, particularly in relation to playgroups being funded for only 4 hours per day. Currently, k\u014Dhanga have an exemption to be open for 6 hours each day, and we ask whether this exemption will continue or whether the hours for funding will be cut. An amendment is being proposed to ensure the ongoing entitlement of k\u014Dhanga to receive funding for 6 hours per weekday. Also, under section 316 we propose an amendment that k\u014Dhanga reo can choose to be licensed as service providers, thus qualifying for funding, rather than making the licensing mandatory for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWhat we are really putting forward here is, in fact, the M\u0101ori knowledge point of view. K\u014Dhanga and the kura kaupapa are M\u0101ori concepts. Let them live and breathe as M\u0101ori concepts without over-regulating them to become what they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u002216a6d58689dc42f1b10eab90eac34fb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216a6d58689dc42f1b10eab90eac34fb4\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak to the Committee stage of this bill. First of all, I would like to comment on the amendments proposed by Bill English and the M\u0101ori Party. United Future has some real sympathies with some of the areas they cover, although there are shades of grey within one or two of them, particularly in one that Bill English is putting up. Our concern is about process, and as United Future is not represented on the Education and Science Committee, I made some inquiries about what the committee had covered. This Education Amendment Bill is a bit of an omnibus bill. It covers a whole lot of different things, tidies up a whole lot of areas, and brings in some new initiatives that are, of themselves, a bit disconnected. I can see what has happened here. Because of the diverse nature of the bill, the temptation has been for other parties to use the Committee of the whole House as an opportunity to slap on a whole lot of their own ideas and policies. I can understand that temptation, but it is very bad process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESome of the things being suggested were never canvassed at the select committee. Submitters never had the chance to address them, or to comment on them. Here, late in the process, we are trying to bring about changes to things that were never discussed in the select committee. Nor were submitters able to make submissions on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d1e59c377d47cdb0de6e337900a733\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Do you agree with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb590030ec1846c099be0dbfe9f6016e\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I could tease those things out. But let me explain. I got an early draft of Mr English\u2019s ideas on this, and, because United Future has some real sympathies around making sure we teach to standards, and that standards are available in schools, I rang some key leaders within the education sector who have some serious reservations about what is being proposed and who, as key stakeholders in this matter, would certainly appreciate the chance to discuss with the select committee what is being proposed. They feel that this process is completely side-stepping that opportunity for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOne of the things that always concerns me on this matter when we hear it discussed is the assumption that teachers are teaching without any standards and with no sense at all of where children are at. When I was at primary school, just before the mid-year and end-of-year writing of reports, children went through a series of literacy tests with the principal or the teacher of the class in order to assess word recognition skills. Some of those are still used as indicators. This testing occurred once or twice a year to measure children against some standards, and the outcome determined what was written on one\u2019s report. A few years later, after I had gone through high school and teachers college, I was a primary school teacher myself and found that the situation had changed dramatically. Some radical things had happened with the teaching of literacy in Zealand. We were world leaders in that regard. We were teaching children individually, with running records that were updated virtually on a daily basis. In fact, it was an extremely onerous part of the teaching process. Most of us were grabbing kids before school to try to fit in this very, very rigorous assessment of how children were learning, what their instructional level was, and what their reading level was. Any parent or guardian who walked in off the street to ask where his or her child was at would have been told very accurately, in any given week of the year, exactly what level he or she was performing at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAlso, in the area of numeracy a whole lot of rather neat approaches were being taken, including pre-testing children at the beginning of a particular area of learning to determine which maths group they would be put into, assessing what their learning needs were, testing at the end of each unit to see how they had progressed, and determining whether they had understood what was being taught. We were teaching to a very rigorous set of evaluations that had been put in place. I have been a trained primary school teacher for nearly 30 years, and those evaluations were in place for the whole time I was in education. I find it almost offensive at times when people imply that teachers teach in some sort of haphazard way and with no idea of where the children are at or where they are taking them. So we are very supportive of the fact that there are some very clear standards available in the primary sector, and in the secondary sector, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u002292c9c49eba23487286faaa22346d67d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292c9c49eba23487286faaa22346d67d4\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226f532e54c83e4297bc6a04b146c3af7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f532e54c83e4297bc6a04b146c3af7f\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the amendments that have been proposed by our spokesperson on education, Bill English, and I will tell members why. I think that what we really need in education, as parents, as parliamentarians, and as members of the community, is to know how well our kids are doing at school. I talked some years ago to the headmaster of an \u014C\u0101maru school I am very familiar with, and he said to me he wanted his kids to leave the school knowing, at the very least, how to do their times tables. That was the target, the standard, he set for that school in \u014C\u0101maru, and I have to say he set all sorts of other very high standards in terms of behaviour, homework, reading, and kids learning their numbers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ETherefore, I support the amendment to insert new clause 5A, which has been proposed by Bill English: \u201CSection 60A is amended by inserting the following paragraph after paragraph (b): (ba) national standards, which are standards for literacy and numeracy applicable to all students in an age or year group:\u201D. How exciting a thought it is to know that the kids who leave that excellent school in \u014C\u0101maru at the age of 12 and then go on to the next step in their education at high school, which is a wholly different ball game, will at least perhaps know their times tables, and at least have standards in literacy. They will achieve at whatever level is determined, but at least they will go forward with those standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMr English\u2019s amendment to insert new clause 6A follows on from that. It states: \u201CSection 87(2) is amended by inserting the following paragraph after paragraph (e): (f) a statement in which schools provide an analysis of the progress of students measured against any national standard \u2026\u201D. Yay! Now we will know how our kids are doing against that standard. As the mother of two boys and a girl who went through school, and as a parent who was involved closely in their education from probably the very moment they went to day care, I know that that kind of information about the school and about how our kids are measuring up in that school is hugely important and hugely valuable. So I support wholeheartedly those two amendments as proposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EOther aspects of Part 1 of this bill concern me, and they are to do with early childhood education. Again, I have experienced early childhood education as an involved parent, two of my children having been through day care, as it was called back then\u2014a while ago\u2014so I have concerns about some of the provisions in this bill. I believe that some of the provisions in Part 1 are all about unnecessary regulation\u2014in fact, about too much regulation. Surely, our top priority in education and in day care is actually the kids. The issue is about the care of children; it is not about systems, so much. The issue is not about the ministry or the bureaucrats; it is actually about the children. I think that parts of the bill do not focus on the needs of children whatever their age, but just add more bureaucracy and more regulation to early childhood education, and add yet more sanitisation to our children\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EUnder new Part 26 inserted by clause 43 of the bill I make the following points, and I refer to new section 317(2), which states: \u201CRegulations made under subsection (1) may do all or any of the following: (a) prescribe minimum standards relating to premises, facilities, programmes of education, practices in relation to children\u2019s learning and development, implementation of the curriculum framework \u2026\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u002233acfa747a7b487b9a6851660946c413\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233acfa747a7b487b9a6851660946c413\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E The only excitement in this Committee stage of the debate is being provided by the proposed amendments. Any political parties that fail to support the amendments proposed by the Hon Bill English and Allan Peachey to measure the performance of students are failing parents and failing our children. I want those political parties to listen and to reflect very carefully. Our children are our future, and I say an education amendment bill should endorse amendments that put in place provisions to assist parents to know the potential of students and keep abreast of the progress of their children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe late Rt Hon David Lange, the visionary Labour Prime Minister, gave New Zealand Tomorrow\u2019s Schools. He knew that parents and children are the people who really matter, and that the educational standards of schools should be tailored to meet the needs of parents and children. But this Labour regime has turned the late Rt Hon David Lange\u2019s vision of Tomorrow\u2019s Schools into \u201CYesterday\u2019s Schools\u201D. It has taken the initiative from parents and from assisting children, and given it back to the bureaucracy. It is saying that Wellington, the Ministers, and the bureaucrats know what is best for parents and children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI challenge political parties like United Future, the Greens, the M\u0101ori Party, and New Zealand First to explain to their constituents, when they go back to them, why they have failed to support amendments to make sure taxpayers\u2019 money is put into education and into schools to help our children. It is not to give jobs to bureaucrats, or to enable bureaucrats to continue to demand compliance costs and tie up our teachers in filling out forms. Their job is to help our children\u2014our future generation\u2014to get the best possible education and to know their progress. So I cannot see how those political parties can face their supporters and say they will not support these important amendments. They are the only amendments to inspire me to come down to the Chamber and take a call, to say that I am excited about our education system. Because the Tomorrow\u2019s Schools scheme was started by the inspirational late Rt Hon David Lange, I challenge the Labour Party to honour its previous leader by saying it understands, as he understood, that parents are important and that they want the best education for their children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI have another question for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Steve Maharey, apart from the major one: when did we exempt education amendment bills from the requirement that compliance cost statements be furnished? I want the Minister to take a call and tell us when Labour declared that compliance cost statements did not have to accompany an education amendment bill. I want to know by how much this bill will increase the compliance costs met by schools, but that is a lesser point compared with the lack of acceptance of the amendments so correctly and rightly proposed by the Hon Bill English and my colleague Allan Peachey. I do not think that anybody can challenge the statements made by Allan Peachey, who does not just talk the talk. He is actually a successful and an accomplished principal who knows what is best for students, and who has come to Parliament with a single purpose: to inspire politicians to put forward amendments and champion bills that ensure our children get the best possible education. I think the Minister owes it to us to explain why he would not even reflect on those very worthwhile amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00224e8eee61a56e4739a461827cd9e747b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e8eee61a56e4739a461827cd9e747b2\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002282d8ec85a5774f558aa6d3fa12df39cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282d8ec85a5774f558aa6d3fa12df39cd\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to be speaking to the Education Amendment Bill. I recognise the chair of the Education and Science Committee and the work that has been done over the period of time that this bill has come forward; it is now in the Committee stage. I take on board Judy Turner\u2019s comments with regard to embellishing and broadening out. But in a sense I will talk about something that was discussed within the essence of the select committee process, around adding a bit of comfort and safety to our teaching fraternity, recognising that they do perform their very, very best in a safe environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI believe that even since the introduction of this bill into the House things have moved progressively in the wrong way. When I was speaking to a number of my teaching friends in Blenheim, it was quite clear that they are aware they do have systems in place that are actually very negative towards the school as a whole in handling abusiveness, intimidation, and suchlike. But there needs to be more structure around those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ESo I am proposing that we make an amendment, and ask for the support of members in the Committee. Supplementary Order Paper 26 recommends that people under the criminal age are not subject to those requirements, but those who are over 14 years may be charged with offences of insulting, abusing, or intimidating a teacher or a member of staff of a school, and that it is clarified that such an offence may also be carried out by electronic means. I believe this is very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThis afternoon at lunchtime we enjoyed rewarding 20 of the very best teachers we have in New Zealand. There were 560 nominations for the ASG National Excellence in Teaching awards. I was absolutely delighted to see that one of those 20 was, in fact, a lady teacher from Fairhall School, Pauline Graham. It is great to see them being recognised. But I do believe there are very solid grounds for students to face charges\u2014even though the select committee through the process decided to go with the flow that, in actual fact, a student would not have to face a charge for an offence such as insult and abuse. I would like to see this strengthened. That would show that we take our teachers seriously, that we treat their profession honourably, and that they are professionals. So I really beseech members to be supportive of that amendment, because I think it is long overdue, and we have to empower our teachers to be excellent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWith regard to the measurables of education, my expertise comes from the point of view of dealing with the failures of literacy and numeracy. So I am greatly enthused when I see that there is the potential for the Minister of Education to be able to set literacy and numeracy standards. We do not know just how serious this situation is; we do not know just how much it is costing our country. I can understand the sensitivities around the issue, but I believe it is as important as a good health system. A dollar invested wisely shows a maximum return. So I would very strongly support those recommendations put forward by way of amendment in new clause 5A, \u201CNational education guidelines\u201D\u2014that there are national standards for literacy and numeracy, applicable to all students of all ages and year groups. That would be very important. The expectation that schools will report on those standards will engage parents and give them the absolute confidence that their children are not dropping through the cracks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI have noticed that there is growing dissatisfaction and a growing movement towards looking for excellence in education. I discovered, with some sorrow, when I approached the Minister on behalf of the Richmond View School, which wanted to move from a primary section into secondary up to year 13, that there was not the scope or capability within the ministry to see the wisdom of this. In Blenheim we have only a girls\u2019 secondary school and a boys\u2019 secondary school. There is a strong voice in the local community, supported by the mayor and many leading citizens, that we need the choice of a coed school. Those sorts of things, I think, are very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe Education Amendment Bill focuses very much on regulation and process, and I think there is too much concentration on that. It was interesting to see reported in the Press that there was surprise at where we are actually at in this process of the Education Amendment Bill. There are a lot of teachers out there who do not know that it is just about to be passed through the Committee stage. So from that point of view I think the new sets of eyes that have come on board with the Supplementary Order Papers\u2014not overly expanding on things but, actually, fashioning the bill so it will take us forward in a constructive way\u2014are very positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022605654b722cd49509b66859a10cc9ac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022605654b722cd49509b66859a10cc9ac6\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I just note that this part has a number of different areas that we would like to be able to traverse and talk through; it is not just purely and simply around early childhood. I think it is necessary to say that, to ensure that early closure calls are not accepted, because there are a lot of areas that we need to look at, including teacher housing, student numbers, and the issue that Colin King brought up about intimidation etc. We need to be able to talk through those issues because there are amendments around a whole lot of them. It would be a sorry case if we thought this was just about the early childhood regulations and a couple of Supplementary Order Papers around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI want to talk about Colin King and his amendments because I think there is a lot of merit and good thinking behind them. It is a little unfortunate, as I am noticing in the debate, that there are very few members here tonight who were actually on the Education and Science Committee at the time. That is not their fault, but it just means that they have not been able to explore some of the issues around the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI just want to talk about the offence of insulting, abusing, or intimidating staff. That was, I think, already in the 1964 Act, and it applied to schools. The amending bill said we wanted to apply that to early childhood centres. The select committee did, in fact, look at the issue in detail, because we were very concerned about some of the anxiety that staff members, principals, sole teachers, etc., in some of our rural schools are facing, particularly in Northland with the dangers of P these days, and there are anxieties around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut the issue is this. The offence is only if the intimidation is made in front of students. Insulting, intimidating, or abusing people comes under the Crimes Act. This is a protection only for the students themselves that this is in the Education Act, and then it was going to go down to the early childhood sector. In our explorations we actually asked about the students within the school. Can they be picked up now under the existing legislation, for abusing a teacher in front of their classmates? The answer was yes, they could. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe select committee looked at this and said: \u201CWell, is this what it\u2019s all about?\u201D. The clause is really there to stop people coming from outside\u2014parents, or visitors, or anyone else. I have been threatened by a parent who said he was going to come and shoot me\u2014after a separation; that sort of business. I am sure Allan Peachey knows the situation pretty well. It is really about what happens in front of the students. Therefore, although I totally agree\u2014I would love to see the amendment, particularly the electronic version\u2014the problem is that it actually takes it outside the ambit of what this particular amendment is all about in this particular part of the bill. So we will not be supporting it, although we think there is some real merit along the lines of the member\u2019s thinking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to talk about is that Colin talked about parents needing to know how well their children are getting on. I absolutely agree with that. Not only do they need to know how well they are getting on, but they need to know how well they are getting on in relation to other students around New Zealand. They need to have that sort of reference point. It is all very well schools saying to parents: \u201CYour kid\u2019s proceeding satisfactorily.\u201D, and then finding out when the kids get to fifth form\u2014year 11\u2014that, in fact, they are not doing particularly well against other New Zealand students. This amendment that Mr English is putting up has some merit\u2014and we have already said we agree with it in principle\u2014but the problem is that it does not give individual parents information about their individual kids. It gives information about the school, I say to Mr English, and not about the individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe parents themselves now have that right to the information about how well their particular children are getting on. With the development of tools such as the assessment tool for teaching and learning, schools are in a far better position to be able to provide that information to parents. Any school that is not providing that information to parents I think should be caned\u2014to use a pun\u2014because it is a professional requirement to provide that information. In fact, it is a legal requirement that is already in the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThat is why I think the process is clumsy. I have only just seen this amendment, and I would like to be able to explore the implications of it, as I did as Associate Minister of Education with the New Zealand First - National Government, because I think it needs far more exploration than can be provided in this debate in this Chamber. I believe there is a great deal of merit in this amendment, but what it is talking about is not individual parents finding out about their children; it is about them finding out about schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u002204e6672e748a4cbc8031df208d1056c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204e6672e748a4cbc8031df208d1056c4\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take the Hon Brian Donnelly up on something that he raised earlier on, which was the issue of the self-locking gates on swimming pools. Members on that side just love to trot this thing out. There are 180,000 kids in early childhood centres. Most early childhood centres, including k\u014Dhanga\u2014if k\u014Dhanga have swimming pools\u2014would lock the gates. It is natural.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7d3cf9fd0424bb1ba6747eea5a051c7\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Self-locking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e197e431af410289ea786616234f1a\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Most swimming pools would have self-locking gates on them. Of the odd one that does not, I ask members how many kids in the last 12 months have been killed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221edd29256d24458498765fc5d1a57866\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a few, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226187237bdf5d4fc1af64fdd3e5a9ff88\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: No, not quite a few. The same issue applies to the fencing of swimming pools. Two or three people die, and what happens? Those members over there go mad with the rule book and want to put a gate on everything. They want to make sure. Do members know why? It is because they are not bothered with looking after the kids; they just want to shut them out of places. I will tell members how to stop kids dying in swimming pools: we should educate them that water is dangerous and to look with their eyes. The same thing happened when the poor kid in south Auckland got run over in his own driveway. There have been far too many of those incidents. Then some bright spark from the Labour Party said: \u201CHow about we fence off people\u2019s driveways?\u201D Gee, that would be a great idea, would it not? Why do we not just go round the whole of the North Island, the South Island, Stewart Island, the Chatham Islands, and the Poor Knights Islands, and fence off the lot of it? For God\u2019s sake, when are these people going to wake up? When are people going to wake up to the fact that the best part of it is true education? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI have another example, which is a current regulation that is being flouted by early childhood centres. Every childcare centre has to have a first aid kit up high, which the regulations state is supposed to be locked. One of the kids gets crook. Nanny Ma, who is supposed to be looking after the key for the first aid kit, is not there. She has gone down the road to buy some clay for the kids, or whatever. Judy, who is the assistant caregiver, cannot find the key for the first aid kit, which is out of the children\u2019s reach. Nobody gets anything from the cabinet, because it is over-regulated. Most early childhood centres leave it unlocked just in case. Is that bad? Of course it is not, but the regulations state that the first aid cabinets must be locked and out of the way. It is a stipulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI want to bring up the issue of process. I really love how some of the parties that support the Government talk about process. I say that it has nothing to do with process. If members like the idea, they should get in behind it. If they do not, they should say so. But members should not have the temerity to get up in this House and say that they really like this idea\u2014it is a great idea\u2014but the process is wrong. Come on! Members should pull their heads in. This is about making sure that there are standards, making sure that the kids have\u2014[Interruption] Well, Harry Duynhoven would know. He knows a lot about this. It is amazing. People on this side of the House have worked in k\u014Dhanga and in early childhood education for years and years. They have not just taken their kids to early childhood centres, they have actually worked in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a5e214576f7449294c3f8d6631d053d\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202f6f418adb44f98e6a0de01e01b37b\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Myself, Dr Pita Sharples, Tariana Turia\u2014where does one stop? Does the member want me to keep going? No. Most people on this side of the House know what it is like when the workplace is over-regulated. Who does not get educated? [Interruption] Well, the member can take the Lord\u2019s name in vain. That is OK. That is fine with me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa87681c64e14a1a99779947ea16a187\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. I have been subjected to a bit of sustained abuse from the other side of the House, and I certainly will not have the member alleging that I made comments that I have not. I take offence at his last comment, and I hope he will withdraw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022145f83045834456e86f43955486bc823\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you raising that as a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd7486ef2c8b453aae0702dc46b8506a\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db832628673a43eeaf474a13d74307ac\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The member has taken offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022903ceeb61d2d49919543c954d754f51c\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. He mumbled something; unfortunately, it was not very audible. All I want to say is let us get on with making sure that our kids get the best start in life, because if we do not then people like Harry Duynhoven are to blame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c6e992483e44f0ac94ac5c7fc02876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c6e992483e44f0ac94ac5c7fc02876\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the amendments from the Hon Bill English and the National Party members Allan Peachey and Colin King. Surely, it is time for teachers to be allowed to teach, and for parents to be involved in the decision process. This bill does nothing to assist teachers in the daily practice of their profession. But when it comes to regulating, this particular Labour-Progressive - part-time New Zealand First - part-time United Future Government, and when it comes to churning out regulations, this Government has surely reached the zenith of regulation-forming practice. One does not even need to drop a hat before new regulations are brought about in an endless array. Regulation making under this Government has become so dominant that it is practically an art form, and indeed the limp legacy of Labour\u2014once it has expired, and that will not be long\u2014will be that it has established a horrifying level of limiting regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWhy has it done this? Because the Government considers it knows best\u2014better than parents and better than teachers. Oh yes, that is what it believes. This Government, and its bureaucracy, know best in their view, and the way they impose that on the public is through regulation. This particular bill really does need the amendment from the Hon Bill English. Education is, sadly, not the only area of our lives where Government regulation has been flourishing, but it is one of the most crucial. Education is the ladder out of the pit of poverty for many people. Education creates opportunities of equality for individuals to be individuals. We need less regulation, not more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThe benefits of the bill, particularly when one has heard all that has been said this afternoon from this side of the Chamber, are to be found in the amendments proposed by the Hon Bill English and by National members Colin King and Allan Peachey. Early education is when the adult is produced. \u201CGive me the child until they are seven, and I will give you the adult.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fa2f9458dd24dc6b3f841828bf36803\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022465e0b0fed5e43209969fe306101bc9c\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I believe the Jesuits said it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c9b93ab7208457391660889f3718089\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: It was St Francis, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ccc33294de4e1e9753501913cacaee\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Was I right, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200092e463dbe420ab7ed8596594f026e\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2c52205ed1b48e3b5a3ede9f76a76bc\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014I did not claim it as my own. I even have it in quotation marks in my notes, and I will show the member afterwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5524b4e11e44aba83662395b40ef7a8\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: But you didn\u2019t attribute it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad90c89ab7724bf8be527ff51700c4f1\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I had some hesitance because I have adapted it away from \u201CGive me the child until he is seven, and I will show you the man\u201D, which would be the correct quote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed91ba26582649dfb6cbd82bd7bd74cd\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: We thought it was remarkably learned of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d880211f3234d4b8755591df23a4d5a\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much indeed, I say to Mr Duynhoven. In early childhood, when young children have an astonishing capacity to absorb information and their brains are totally receptive, they need nurturing\u2014as my colleague Mr Pita Sharples pointed out. They do not need to be prescriptively regulated\u2014as my colleague Tau Henare indicated. There needs to be creative fluidity in practice, and perhaps Governments have to be more trusting in the professional expertise of the teachers and in the experience and involvement of parents, siblings, and grandparents. But trust is not an easy medium for the present Government to operate in, because it does not deal in that particular currency; regulation is safer for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EThis Government is not particularly comfortable in office. That is my observation, having been a member since September. When pressured, the Government has two areas of comfort that it rushes to when it senses any reversal. One, as we see in this bill, is over-regulation. The Government feels safe creating a box-ticking environment for us to live in\u2014safe behind a barrage of rigid regulation. The other area occurs every day in question time. I watch and I listen. As soon as Ministers are under pressure, they rush to their comfort zone of the 1990s, when Labour members were a happy lot and nothing was their fault. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u002274e3463bc38a48109153a02845040db4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274e3463bc38a48109153a02845040db4\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call to explain further why we will not be supporting Mr English\u2019s amendments, and I want to make it clear that we are not trying to use process as some sort of \u201Cout\u201D on this matter. We are interested in hearing this issue debated, but we want it done properly. We have indicated to the M\u0101ori Party members and to the National Party members that if they are prepared to move for this bill to be returned to the Education and Science Committee so that the proper process can be followed, we would support their amendments on the basis that the bill would then be given the proper treatment by the select committee, which it very deeply needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI accept what Mr King said, which was that not every amendment put forward by National is out of left field\u2014or right field, in this case\u2014from the original bill, and that his amendment is in keeping with what was discussed at the select committee. But with regard to Mr English\u2019s amendment, which I think is being touted by the National Party as one of its key amendments, submitters have not been given an opportunity to address it, and we believe that they should have been. We would be prepared, and would be very willing, to support the amendment if we are able to return this bill to the select committee. We have indicated that to the National Party and to the M\u0101ori Party, and we think it is appropriate for an issue that has not been canvassed at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe amendment addresses quite an important issue, and could have serious implications for schools, teachers, parents, and students. The opportunity for a full select committee scrutiny needs to be offered on these sorts of issues. It is important for the public, and particularly for educational specialists and leaders, to make submissions on those very issues. So I want to make it very clear that we have communicated with those two parties very clearly that we would be prepared to support their amendments if they are prepared to return the bill to the select committee. I have yet to see any indication of their willingness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022af46906d76764a5f9107630804570969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af46906d76764a5f9107630804570969\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00228b321b843e154d36a50620a9fe95e246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b321b843e154d36a50620a9fe95e246\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E The reason I am taking a call is that I think United Future has made a fair offer to deal with a couple of amendments, and particularly the significant amendment regarding the introduction of national standards that has been put down in my name. From the process of getting these amendments before the Committee, it is clear to me that there is significant support in the Committee for such an amendment. Some members have expressed the intention to vote for this amendment. I know that members of one party have given it quite a bit of consideration, but they are still concerned that the issue has not been as widely discussed as it could have been, and I think they would probably support the Education and Science Committee having a discussion about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EInterestingly, the select committee is in the process of starting up an inquiry into achievement in literacy and numeracy\u2014or, more correctly, underachievement in literacy and numeracy. The inquiry was proposed by the M\u0101ori Party, and is, I think, supported by all parties on the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo I would invite the House to move, at the end of the Committee stage\u2014which is, I understand, the right procedure\u2014that this bill, with the amendments, if that is the advice the Clerk gives us, goes back to the select committee to be considered. I think the House should seriously consider doing that, because it is clear that a majority of members want to consider the issue. It has come through in the Committee stage that a majority of members would like the issue to be looked at again. I would be quite open, as the proponent of both amendments, to having an extensive discussion in the select committee. I happen to think this amendment gives the maximum flexibility to get the right answer, because over time the Minister of Education\u2014who promulgates the National Education Guidelines\u2014would have the time to engage with all sorts of groups about what those national standards ought to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EClearly, there is an obstacle here in the Committee to the amendment passing now, and I hope we can discuss with other parties the proposition that this issue is referred back to the select committee. The select committee does not have other legislation before it. It could probably deal with this issue fairly expeditiously, and the bill could be back in the House within a matter of 3 or 4 months. I would invite the other parties, if they are interested, to discuss that matter with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022296f146912a045e7a78d55d3701c0093\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising those issues, Mr English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00225f630eb6a8a5448c9d2e40725405ca7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f630eb6a8a5448c9d2e40725405ca7c\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Just to clarify what Mr English is proposing, would the vote on whether the bill was returned to the select committee happen before or after his amendment was put forward, because that would make a big difference as to how we voted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e2ce7774b9c43d3b192048aa86dc8fd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Neither. That issue must be dealt with by the House. That would be the proper time to do it\u2014after the Committee has sent the bill back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2cf8f4508fd49bb91ae7700e78d98ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2cf8f4508fd49bb91ae7700e78d98ed\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Clearly, what is in the mind of the United Future member is the consideration of the amendments relating to this issue. I take it that if the amendments are put to the Committee and are defeated, then it is really in the hands of the select committee to consider what amendments it would make to the substantive bill. But there is no connection between what happens to the amendments here and what the select committee is invited to reconsider if the bill goes back to it. I would be interested in your view from the Chair on that, Mr Chairperson. Could you see the point I was making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221833aa18033d4df2adc5893af6410bf4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f34f365c5ddb40ce9cc11890598508a2\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Are you able to inform us about the effects of actions we might take here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237986a0a723e406daf570f2190357f30\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the proposition you are putting forward, but it is still something that has to be dealt with by the House, not by the Committee. You have flagged the issue, and the proper time to deal with it would be when the House resumes. You, of course, can try to do that, or you can leave it until the House resumes, after the conclusion of the Committee stage, which is the proper time to do it\u2014in fact, it is the only time to do it; the select committee cannot consider anything referred back to it by the Committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022918cf4a79ce640faaae125632793ae93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022918cf4a79ce640faaae125632793ae93\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1561125469f4241bbe6537220fa083a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1561125469f4241bbe6537220fa083a\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E The Committee of the whole House is at a very interesting stage tonight. The Education Amendment Bill is important legislation. The number of amendments that different parties in the Chamber have put forward on the bill show its degree of importance to members. So we can establish that the bill is important to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe next point I make is that for a bill that has been through the full select committee process, the number of amendments now before the Committee is quite unusual\u2014even from the Minister of Education. Parts of the bill are now facing significant amendment\u2014even amendments proposed by the Minister\u2014that have not been through the select committee process. There is a real issue here. The bill was considered by a previous Education and Science Committee, and, as the Hon Brian Donnelly pointed out, a number of the members of that select committee in the previous Parliament are not in this Parliament. So not many members of this Parliament have actually had the chance to consider the bill at the select committee. That would not be a huge problem, perhaps, if it were not for the fact that so many members of this Parliament want to make amendments to it\u2014not just one party but a number of parties, including the Minister\u2019s, want to make amendments to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is why the Committee would be wise to consider the possibility of sending the bill back to the select committee. Very important issues are at stake. As a former Minister\u2014and I was a Minister for many years\u2014I find it problematic that so many amendments have been brought to the Committee. They are pretty detailed, and there has been no chance for any select committee to consider the issues. For example, a number of detailed issues in Minister Maharey\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 25 change totally what the previous select committee was reporting back to Parliament. The select committee in the previous Parliament reported back the bill, and now, suddenly, the Minister comes in with some major amendments that no select committee has considered. It is not as if these things are hugely political issues; they are detailed issues. I would argue there is very good, sound reason for the bill\u2014given the particular circumstances surrounding it\u2014to be sent back to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ECertainly, if that helped the United Future Party to consider further the amendments of the Hon Bill English, it would be hugely valuable, because it would give the chance for those very important and serious amendments to be considered further. I think a number of parties in the Chamber would welcome that opportunity. I realise that as the Committee we cannot do that\u2014it is a matter the House has to determine. But I would certainly urge members who are involved in this debate in the Committee to talk to their parties so, when the House resumes, the bill can be sent back to the select committee, because a number of amendments\u2014not just the excellent amendment of my colleague Bill English but also amendments from other parties in the Chamber\u2014would benefit if the Education and Science Committee of this Parliament had the chance to consider them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo I want to make it very clear that National will be supportive of that move, and, obviously, United Future will be supportive of it. I am sure the M\u0101ori Party would be supportive of it, and I suspect New Zealand First might be supportive of it, because I am sure the chairman of the previous select committee, Mr Brian Donnelly, has some concerns about the extent of the modification to the bill. A number of amendments have been brought forward since his committee had the chance to hear the bill. This is important, serious business, and I hope the House can treat it with the seriousness that it is due.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002225588ec322d349b19841546fd7ccff28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225588ec322d349b19841546fd7ccff28\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1690c8ded0d4e1ab40393aebbca010c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1690c8ded0d4e1ab40393aebbca010c\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to point out to the Committee that the reason the amendments to the boards\u2019 reporting are actually in the Education Amendment Bill at all is that the intention of the bill was to remove the requirement for boards to have an AGM. The AGM has become a bit of a farce with boards, so we said that was fair enough. Those structural, operational requirements around boards were made back in 1989. Times have changed, so we said we could look at that. But the one thing we insisted upon was that boards had to report to parents. That is why the reporting part of the legislation was in there. At no time was there any mention at all\u2014it was not even raised\u2014that there should be a highly complex issue around reporting against standards. That was never brought up at all, so we never even started to get our heads around that particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EOf course, our concern with regard to the amendment is that we simply do not have the time to address that particular capacity\u2014it is a very complex issue. The former Minister of Education will know that when the New Zealand First - National Government got together, it found that the previous National Government had a national testing programme all ready to go. New Zealand First opposed the programme, because it thought it was simplistic and would not give the information that would be required to move our system forward. The programme was canned, we put out a green paper on assessment, and I travelled to Toronto and England and looked at their systems. Some of the recommendations that were made ended up being implemented as the asTTle type of thing, because we strongly believed that parents need information about the progress of their children that is based around norms\u2014national norms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut that does not mean national testing; it means providing some sort of tools that are, in fact, standardised, such as asTTle or the progressive achievement tests. That is already in the legislation\u2014it was in the Act of 1989. As a principal, I always operated under legislation that required me to report regularly on the progress of students. Some of the deficiencies in that reporting were around the deficiencies in the tools that schools had to operate with. But they did not come around by comparing one school with another. Once we start to get into those sorts of comparisons, we start to get into real fish-hooks. Therefore, the asTTle stuff, which was an upgrade and a modernisation of the progressive achievement test stuff, took into account the way that the national curriculum structure was built. Rather than the norm being based around the standard distribution curve, it was around levels that Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith had put into place. So it gave a measure against the particular levels that were there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe believe very strongly in that, and we believe there is a real need for a debate. But, certainly, this Committee at this particular moment does not have the capacity to go through all the complexities of that particular debate\u2014whether or not the issue goes back to the Education and Science Committee. In some respects I believe the Opposition is actually catching a bus that has gone by, rather than having utilised the opportunity to bring up those particular issues when the legislation was in the select committee. Nevertheless, we believe very strongly that the issue being raised is a very important one and needs to be fully debated in the environment of a select committee, rather than in the environment of the Committee at this particular stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u002258572e7f53094b90946234052971b484\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258572e7f53094b90946234052971b484\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Bill English to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E5A\tNational education guidelines\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003ESection 60A is amended by inserting the following paragraph after paragraph (b):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E(ba)\tnational standards, which are standards for literacy and numeracy applicable to all students in an age or year group:.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b83d59ee1b754a86b6d19b18db2b9558\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000474\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to insert new clause 5A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f9a5279852b4313bcd0aee11bdb41e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000475\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 70A(2) in clause 6(1), to omit and substitute word, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fe8e273fc7ac4aa18901b352b3c4e9af\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000476\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 70A(2) in clause 6(1), to add words, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c65dee222f3c435f87d1ba02d0ddf8d6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000477\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 70A in clause 6(1), to insert new subsections, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d6164d6342454ba5a1aa029228a5cd1f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c52b736e5f44d90b7dd7936ee4668b7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment in the name of the Hon Bill English to insert new clause 6A is out of order because it is inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 26 in the name of Colin King to section 139C(2) in clause 29, to insert words, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f89f1ad2b5a849b3b109131f0e94e381\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000480\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 26 in the name of Colin King to section 139C in clause 29, to add new subsection (3), be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f56586933dc04a3bbe66c6316a5d978d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000481\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to clause 30 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b6b6e0ae30a045b09ee9ac1e9436bfc1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000482\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 309 in clause 43, to the definition of early childhood service, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002222347363095e4e78bed2d81ae20f5fc1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000483\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 309 in clause 43, to the definition of playgroup, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e86ce697bd734d1fbf05ff2aebb78c60\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000484\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 309 in clause 43, to the definition of service provider, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221a380735d366477cb02912547448ad96\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000485\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 310(2) in clause 43, to insert new paragraph, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002235386e9307f647d4b160c72fae8199bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000486\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 316 in clause 43, to insert words, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca0e41190a424d9ea77dd973742f19ac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000487\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 316 in clause 43, to omit and substitute words, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d80bea80daa94ff28f6e9202febecafa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000488\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 317(1) in clause 43, to omit and substitute words, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b3e4087264f3437b9cf87093101c88cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000489\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Pita Sharples to the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 317(1) in clause 43 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000490\u0022\u003Eto omit from proposed new paragraph (c) the word \u201Cissuing\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cauthorising the secretary to issue\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed4b6f48d8eb44ba848051e6f7172ff8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000491\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 317(1) in clause 43, to add new paragraph (c), be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ef5439559e7f442ab53f5cad8759d665\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000492\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Pita Sharples to the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 317(2) in clause 43 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000493\u0022\u003Eto omit from proposed new paragraph (b) the word \u201Cassess\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Cuse in assessing\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6be6e614d0e4510b3c64546bf8883ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000494\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 23 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to section 317(2) in clause 43, to omit and substitute paragraph (b), be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002256c688c4952b45848f0e099005f26699\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000495\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 29 in the name of the Hon Brian Donnelly to section 317 in clause 43 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002229d6f9d0da96499cb8c280ef0854d029\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000496\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 29 in the name of the Hon Brian Donnelly to section 319 in clause 43 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d7ed52c6bfbc4f24afe7d39d2eb731b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000497\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000498\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 24 in the name of Allan Peachey to section 342 in clause 44 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000499\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 24 in the name of Allan Peachey to section 344(2) in clause 44 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022799042f54d974e57a9aa6dc47b87dcbf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000500\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 24 in the name of Allan Peachey to Part 30 in clause 44, to insert new section 345A, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bb256cbc7ac84c3485a7ce7c2ba7f938\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000501\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of the Hon Steve Maharey to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce0eab01e58742ef8b0e3c0637d3858f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220d2c1c4c3bae4d4d809198e1e1ed7daa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ac3bf54f2d740ff89f707cf68f7f4cc\u0022\u003EPart 2  Other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8a8e42196c04355ab74079e049c3ed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8a8e42196c04355ab74079e049c3ed9\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E This part has a number of innocuous and fairly inconsequential amendments to other enactments\u2014the State Sector Act and the Student Loan Scheme Act\u2014consequential amendments to other enactments, and repeals and revocations. What is interesting about this part and the schedules is that they are the last parts of any significant education legislation that we will see for the rest of the life of this Government. Schedule 1 tidies up some loose ends to do with the definitions of early childhood service and makes other inconsequential changes like omitting the words \u201Cmanagement of\u201D and substituting the words \u201Cemployer at\u201D. Is that not a damp squib on which the Labour Government\u2019s legislative programme in respect of education comes to an end? The Minister in the chair, Steve Maharey, will not come up with anything smarter than changing the definition of \u201Cearly childhood centre\u201D to \u201Cearly childhood education and care centre\u201D. That was the last good idea of Trevor Mallard, but at least he had one, even if the last one was not much. This Minister has none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe House should debate this bill at some length, because we will not get to debate another piece of education legislation under this Minister or under the Labour Government. This is the end; this is the tail end. If the best they can do is devote legislative time to changing the definition of \u201Cearly childhood centre\u201D to \u201Cearly childhood education and care centre\u201D, then there is nothing else to be said. The select committee has no legislation in front of it. The Government finds itself increasingly on the wrong side of a number of arguments and a number of directions in respect of education that the public are headed in, and it cannot take the risk of bringing to this Parliament any more education legislation of any significance. I suspect we may see some legislation to fix mess-ups, because that is part of the normal business of Government\u2014although this Minister, of course, is an expert in messes, and unfortunately he will ruin the tail end of Dr Cullen\u2019s career in trying to fix up his tertiary education mess. But we will not see anything significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESome of these definitions do flow from a fairly wide-ranging change in early childhood funding. The reference in clause 48 to the kindergarten movement is a signal of that. The kindergarten movement is only now really beginning to understand the scale of change that this change in funding brings about. I am sure that if a National Government had brought about the changes in this bill, there would have been protest marches in the streets about the end of free kindergartens\u2014because free kindergartens have ended. This part talks about free kindergartens. Kindergartens can charge. If parents send children there now they are eligible for the childcare subsidy. Kindergartens are now writing to parents and saying that, thank God, fund-raising is now over, because they will charge parents and the parents will get it back through the childcare subsidy. That is all going on right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo kindergartens are no longer free. They are also starting to figure out that they will lose their distinctiveness as kindergartens. That is something that many New Zealanders do not yet understand but will come to understand over the next few months. This bill, of course, does not trumpet that change; nor does the Minister, I might say. I was waiting for him to get up and give a lyrical speech somewhere about the end of free kindergartens, the destruction of a New Zealand icon, and the nasty right-wing forces that brought it about. But, funnily enough, he has not done that because, of course, compared to Steve Maharey, Trevor Mallard is a nasty, right-wing force and the early childhood funding in this bill is his brainchild.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022757c9cd7e00a471c9274c4424af38fd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022757c9cd7e00a471c9274c4424af38fd0\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a few comments. It is very interesting that a couple of impassioned speeches have been made by National members about kindergartens, and the need to protect kindergartens and their iconic status. I ask members who it was who took kindergarten teachers out of the State Sector Act, back in 1997. It seems to me that there is a bit of tension between what was done in 1997 and some of the statements that are coming out in the debate this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe only other thing I want to make a point about is the Student Loan Scheme Act, because it is really the guts of this part. It refers to scholarships, which is something I have a bit of personal pride in because it was a policy that I put through the coalition Government initially. The incoming Labour Government, in 1999, saw there was merit in expanding it, in terms of gaining additional teachers in various areas of particular need, so I have a particular interest in that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E All that this measure does\u2014as I think everybody in the Committee would agree\u2014is to ensure that if somebody who gets a scholarship does not fulfil the requirements of it, then the funds can be extracted back under the Student Loan Scheme Act in the same way as student loans. I think most people would agree that if somebody signs up to one of the scholarship schemes and fulfils all the requirements of it, then that person should keep the dough. But if a person does not fulfil the requirements, then surely he or she has a responsibility to refund the money to the State. This legislation provides a sure-fire mechanism for that to happen. I am sure that all members of the Committee would see that as the responsibility to the taxpayer referred to in clause 49. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe rest of it is really just nuts and bolts stuff. I think the Hon Bill English was correct in saying that, and I do not think it is worthwhile to spend a large amount of time debating this particular part. It would probably be better to spend that time traversing the whole tenor of the bill when we get to the title clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u002203a71902b876432ca2d4d70fb5d3f8a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203a71902b876432ca2d4d70fb5d3f8a6\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise once again to oppose the Education Amendment Bill and to speak to Part 2. Part 2, as previous speakers have said, is a nuts and bolts part, but it is actually very important. It is important to repeal outdated legislation and to revoke regulations that are no longer relevant. Some of us in this Chamber, particularly those of us on this side, are of the view that much more legislation could be repealed, that many more regulations could be revoked, and that New Zealand schooling would be the better for it. Sometimes it is fanciful to contemplate what schooling would look like if we got rid of 85 percent of the legislation that affects schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EBut I think the more serious point is that this amendment bill takes as its principal Act the Education Act 1989. It is with great sadness that I observe that Parliament did not hold its nerve and stick with the 1989 Act and give it a chance to work. It could not resist the pressure from bureaucracies and interest groups to interfere, to regulate, and to control. This bill is just one more step in that process. It is one more step that says that centralisation is how we solve the underlying problems of education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EWell, I have to make clear to the Government that I am not aware of one child, anywhere, who has learnt anything in the office of a bureaucrat, a Minister, a politician, or a review officer. Children learn in classrooms. I think that those of us who were principals\u2014and my New Zealand First colleague was one, as well\u2014in the years straight after 1989, in the era of Tomorrow\u2019s Schools, were fortunate. They were years when we could actually make a difference. We were genuine educational leaders, and those of us who had the courage to seize the opportunity to be innovative, creative, and brave, transformed schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EBut, increasingly, as more and more legislation came out of the House and more and more regulations came out of the ministry, we suddenly realised we were not being creative and innovative in finding solutions for children\u2019s learning needs; we were becoming obsessed with compliance and with ticking the right box. Our teachers suddenly began to work it out\u2014take no risks, be safe, comply, get a tick from the Education Review Office and it would be all right. It did not matter whether children were learning to the maximum of their capacity, because teachers just had to get the right boxes ticked and it would be all right. All this legislation is taking us to an obsession with process\u2014get the process right and nothing else matters. It does not matter that maybe 15 or 20 percent of children are not experiencing success at school. Teachers will not be criticised for that if they get the right boxes ticked. That is where the successive bits of legislation that have been coming out of Parliament since 1989 have led us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003ELet us contemplate for a moment what the schooling scene would look like if we could wipe away everything that has happened in the last 16 years and go back to the purity of the 1989 Education Act\u2014to the vision and plan of Tomorrow\u2019s Schools. Let us just think about what it would look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f2826a535534832a0bed3bf0627015a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c589c942baa2464484efbfd64d28ed2e\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205f68e788bc44c4f99437d6d2a9d9bd9\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: You have just used up your title speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b86305dd9120459f81f481cd2d2b6fcc\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am afraid they are not letting me have another speech; I have to get it all into this one. The reference in Part 1 to the Education Standards Act 2001 is a typical example of the type of legislation I am referring to. It is legislation that gets in the way of what really needs to happen. If the Government is to bring in an amendment bill, then let us do the job properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u002231965b8382a94898a100d93dfcc244cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231965b8382a94898a100d93dfcc244cf\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is significant that the second part of this incredible Education Amendment Bill is such a small part. However, other amendments have been covered by other members, the Hon Bill English and Allan Peachey, and that is relevant in the sense that from time to time it is necessary to tidy up aspects that are covered within the body of a bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIn speaking to Part 2, I would like to take the opportunity to say that as far as the definitions go, some clarification is added to the meaning of the intent of the bill. But changing the word \u201Cmanagement\u201D to \u201Cemployer\u201D in schedule 1 is inconsequential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe whole range of amendments required by this bill is significant, in that education does span an enormous range of subjects and it is appropriate to keep it all in order. It was said before that it was as though the National Party was catching the last bus from the rank, and, as a member\u2014along with Allan Peachey, Bill English, and Jacqui Dean\u2014of the Science and Education Committee, I do feel a bit like that myself. This was our last opportunity, along with the M\u0101ori Party, to have an input into education, going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI say to my chairman, with great respect, that only two members of the previous Education and Science Committee are actually still in Parliament. Over 60 percent of the present Education and Science Committee members who have actually spoken and put forward amendments\u2014[Interruption] The lady member had no voting power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa25d4bfb2a843f2b8df7bb57b7d2cf9\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Ashraf is out there with Bill English himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb499c9f72364b3bb177d87202f7690e\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: Ashraf is not here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224781c310c9544521875dc84b51090720\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We are talking about Part 2, and I ask the member to please not use members\u2019 first names. The full name should be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d475f32cbe53417f867f0b59935be219\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: I will steer away from that, Mr Chairman. I must commend those members for their efforts on and input into this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe see this bill fading into the sunset. I just trust that when the opportunity comes again, we will not lose our nerve and will grasp the nettle with regard to the education of our children. I hope we will do something far more constructive than we are doing with the amendment bill in front of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EClause 50 deals with consequential amendments to other enactments. It was quite interesting to go through my PC in the dinner break, to try to catch up on the history of those enactments. We see reference to the Revocation of Soldier Teachers Grading Adjustment Regulations, and to the Revocation of the Combined Secondary and Technical Schools Regulations, and on and on it goes. I suppose they all served their purpose. However, they will now pass into history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EFrom that point of view, I have no doubt that when the Education and Science Committee next has the opportunity to look at this legislation, we will wonder why so much time was spent on it. The bill came forward to the committee in November 2004 and has had a moderate gestation period. I do not see that it will be one of the things that stands out in my mind as having achieved an enormous amount other than far more bureaucracy, far more regulation, less innovation, and more costs. By and by, it will be the bureaucrats who will tell us how we want our children to be brought up, not their parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of the Hon Steve Maharey to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022740777ded65548dd9a90e4e899cbf663\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b036d5a64a645f2a905edbd7dcf883d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000532\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002251b978fb785e4661a18064816a70caf8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000533\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000534\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of the Hon Steve Maharey to schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022571ecaa8bbda4aca8f5903b9e0b6a8cf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022174a330bf25f47babeff6eed21221c52\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0fdc08239014e40aa0e90c9d157d0a8\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5aae08a60f84820a4688ab73edebe10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5aae08a60f84820a4688ab73edebe10\u0022\u003EJACQUI DEAN (National\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I was going through my mail just before, and this little story is relevant to the title and commencement of this bill: I spent a wonderful hour with the pupils of St Josephs School in \u014C\u0101maru a couple of months ago, speaking to them about leadership and challenges. I have just received the replies from the students. They are year 8 students in a school of year 7 and 8 students. It is excellent to receive these replies. They are absolutely delightful and they speak from the heart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI want to read to members one little paragraph from a pupil: \u201COnce I have compared your job to my role as a year 8, there is not much difference in them, because we both have people relying on us. We also have to make decisions that would affect others.\u201D So that is a little bit relevant, because I believe that education is about children. There is so much to enjoy and to celebrate in education, and to see the level of literacy and the level of good thinking going on in those year 8 children is wonderful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Education Amendment Bill should be about children, but I believe that some parts of it are more about an increase in bureaucracy, an increase in regulation, and a decrease in the role of parents. I believe that the bill proposes to impose extra costs on early childhood centres. Those costs come as costs in time, extra costs in money, and costs in teacher resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI will confine my comments mostly to Part 1. When parents drop their children off at an early childhood centre, they really need to know that the teachers are caring for their children and looking after them\u2014and that \u201Ccare\u201D word is very important. They need to know that the early childhood educators at those licensed centres are not just filling in forms, not spending too much of their time in a cramped office\u2014because that is what they always are, very cramped\u2014filling in forms and accounting for themselves, measuring, reporting, and prescribing minimum standards. What we want in our early childhood educators, those people looking after our kids, is for them to be out there with our kids\u2014playing with them, reading to them, reading with them, talking to them, and doing numbers with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWhen I was in Alexandra several months ago\u2014this is another story\u2014I visited an early childhood centre, and it was a wonderful place. The sun was shining and the kids were all playing under a shady tree and having a wonderful time. But the supervisor of the childcare centre spent all her time showing me what she has to do to account for what she does\u2014and this was before the provisions of this bill have been brought in, which will add further to the work she does. For example, she showed me a box full of notebooks. Each one of those notebooks described the progress of a 2-year-old. Well, OK! Then there was another set of notebooks that had other pieces of information in them. It seemed to me that we already have plenty of regulation in the early childhood sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI am also concerned about section 317(2)(b) in clause 43, which states: \u201Cauthorise the Secretary, after consultation with those organisations that appear to the Secretary to be representative of persons likely to be substantially affected by these regulations, to prescribe criteria to be used by the Secretary to assess compliance with the minimum standards imposed by these regulations:\u201D. So it is not the parents who are making the regulations and minimum standards for early childhood centres, and it is not the parents who are making decisions about the care of their children, but a ministry representative. Now I am not sure that I support that. In fact, I do not support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EParents will not be making regulations and minimum standards; the Ministry of Education bureaucrats will be. I do not support anything that takes power away from parents in this regard. The ministry will have the ability to make regulations that take responsibility away from Parliament. I do not think that a bureaucrat is the best person to set standards for the care of my child. I think that parents need to have a very strong say in the care of their children. A basic principle to me is that all of us are in danger of regulating all the fun and risk out of childhood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022542389c932734f7b849b0249cab80e73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022542389c932734f7b849b0249cab80e73\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the title of the Education Amendment Bill, I thank Jacqui Dean for her very appropriate comments. We know that this amendment bill is just an exercise in more bureaucracy, more control, and more regulation, and there is a bit of carrot in behind the stick in the sense that if the early childhood sector does conform appropriately to the criteria and the regulations, then it will get the funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI do hope that we do not strangle the innovation, the flair, and the individual skill of the teachers who are so committed to and passionate about our education sector. I think that there is an enormous risk of putting so many regulations in place that an enormous amount of time will be spent on compliance. Sometimes that compliance can put an enormous burden on a small rural community or a provincial area. I am also quite sure, because of the way this bill has been handled during the Committee stage, that we will see it come back very quickly with a large number of amendments. I make that comment because of the genuine effort that was put into the Supplementary Order Papers and how beneficial they would have been in relation to moving forward, not only as a country but as an important sector of society\u2014education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ELooking at it all now in hindsight, I still have some huge fears that we have not appropriately linked and strengthened the hand of the teachers in relation to the abuse and intimidation of staff. It is very easy for that to occur in a way that is removed from witnesses. It could be done electronically or in private, yet there is no way that we can link or empower the school back to the Crimes Act. So that is one part that really does concern me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThe introduction of the National Student Number, going right down to the early childhood learning situation, is also quite an important situation. It was an enormous opportunity for us to move forward, and to be able to measure and manage. One tries to bring up a family in a way that recognises the individuality of one\u2019s children, whether they are boys or girls. I just feel that we are missing out here on that opportunity to be able to empower the parents to have the input and show that inclusiveness as far as moving forward as a unit closely associated with the school or the early childhood centre and on into the tertiary education sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI do believe that we will continue to have situations where people will fall through the cracks. As a teacher from Blenheim said to me only the other day: \u201CIf it comes to Friday and you\u2019ve got an accelerant child and you\u2019ve got a very average child, it becomes one size fits all.\u201D I believe that in the sense of the amendments in this bill, effectively all we have done is a snow job\u2014a whitewash. We have paid particular attention to rules and regulations, and the only carrot that is sitting in behind it all is that the Government will fund the schools. If the schools do not do as the Government tells them, they will not get funded. I find it very difficult to get any pleasure whatsoever from this Education Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00228e16eb93d1aa49a193df33ccd0ab3e08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e16eb93d1aa49a193df33ccd0ab3e08\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is a broad-ranging bill, and we have not traversed many of the areas it covers\u2014for example, the area of school housing and the effect of that on rural schooling. Colin King has referred to student numbers but not necessarily to the element of why they were brought in and some of the benefits, even notwithstanding the fact that Supplementary Order Paper amendments were not passed. So I hope people will indulge me on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I say to Allan Peachey, who criticised the Education Standards Act, that when that legislation went to the Committee stage it was called an Education Amendment Bill. A member of the National caucus recommended that the legislation be renamed the Education Standards Bill. So enamoured was he with that particular bill that he put a motion, and the House voted in favour of it. The person\u2019s name happened to be Alec Neill. I never could quite work out how that rush of blood went to his head. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EHowever, first of all I will cover a couple of areas around the so-called potential over-regulation. At the moment we have the Revised Statement of Desirable Objectives and Practices (DOPs) for Chartered Early Childhood Services in New Zealand. That will go through Cabinet and through Order in Council, etc. I can tell members here and now that within that, one thing requires all early childhood providers to keep a record of every meal that is delivered at lunchtime on every day to every child. Now, that set of Desirable Objectives and Practices actually went through Cabinet in 1998, when a certain Tau Henare sat around the table and agreed to approve that particular level of regulation. It exists at the moment. The whole idea behind this was, in fact, to collapse the Desirable Objectives and Practices\u2014to relook at the whole licensing criteria in a much more rational fashion. A process has been going on for 2 years whereby all the Desirable Objectives and Practices have been looked at and the question asked of whether they are still current and still necessary. In fact, we are trying to rationalise the whole thing. So rather than increase the regulation, this bill actually has the potential to reduce the amount of regulation, if the consultation process is gone through correctly. I am very pleased that a couple of amendments that I got through will take out the most draconian risk that exists in the way the legislation is drawn up. But I am comfortable that the process will not lead to smothering levels of regulation within the early childhood sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI mention student numbers, which have been only briefly referred to. The bill introduces student numbers down into the compulsory and early childhood sectors. One of the real problems we have at the moment, particularly in the compulsory sector, is keeping track of students\u2014the students who fall between the cracks between one level of schooling and the other, or between moving from one place to the other. Our major problem in this country is not truancy; it is transiency. It is when people move from one school to the other and often have a number of weeks\u2019 break. There is no way, under the present system, of keeping track of those students. There used to be a system of white cards, if members recall\u2014anyone who was in the system would know it. Now there is not, and those students simply fall through the cracks. This legislation actually gives a lot more power to agencies to be able to put in place mechanisms to look after that major problem that we have in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E I also mention school housing. One of the most disastrous things that any Government ever did to rural education in this country was to bring in market rentals of school houses in the 1980s. At the area school I was at, I think we had something like 12 teachers in school houses. We were absolutely dependent on school houses. Within 6 months we had one teacher left in a school house. The school houses were left to go to rack and ruin because they were handed over to property management groups that did not give two hoots about them. The groups did not maintain them, so teachers did not want to go into them, anyhow. Now, of course, the houses have been transferred over. The ideal opportunity for them to be transferred over to boards of trustees to operate was in 1989. They were not, and as a result of that we have not only lost a lot of those school houses but alienated teachers in rural areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EIn my time, school houses were a great incentive to get teachers into rural areas. There was a salary bar, as well. Once teachers were in rural areas, some people, like myself, loved it and stayed teaching in rural areas; others spent 2 or 3 years there, maybe 5, saved up their money, and went back and bought a house in the city. But it certainly fed the rural areas with staff, and we have had continuous problems in terms of that ever since the Government got rid of school houses in rural areas. The Government has handed over the houses to boards of trustees, albeit far too late and, as I said, in a deplorable state. But it also wants to establish some mechanism for renting them, and New Zealand First agrees with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022 data-id=\u002261d36a55901b41ac8b2e8822da0ca77a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261d36a55901b41ac8b2e8822da0ca77a\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the title of the Education Amendment Bill. It is with some distress and some sadness that I notice that the amendments so eloquently put forward by the Hon Bill English, by other National members Allan Peachey and Colin King, and by my parliamentary colleague Mr Pita Sharples have been denied by the narrowest of margins. Indeed, \u201Cnarrow\u201D is the word, for it describes fairly precisely the width of the present Government\u2019s mind: narrow. It is distressing that so much was said before rising for dinner\u2014so much that represented wide consultation with good dialogue\u2014that demonstrated cross-party interest in perhaps supporting the amendments. Indeed, Mr Donnelly was keen\u2014or at least there was a suggestion that it would be a good idea to refer the bill back to the Education and Science Committee for additional discussion and amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWould the Labour-Progressive - part-time New Zealand First - part-time United Future Government perhaps show some illuminating intelligence, some luminance, some width of thought, or some understanding of what New Zealanders listening to the debate would earnestly want them to do? Oh no! Like automatons set on an inexorable path towards ultimate failure, the Labour-Progressive - part-time New Zealand First - part-time United Future Government marches on to its own demise with its eyes wide shut. To accommodate the requirement of the Hon Harry Duynhoven, who wants a thorough source of quotes, I quote that expression, \u201Ceyes wide shut\u201D, from a range of books written by John Le Carr\u00E9, in which he uses the phrase to describe those who walk in a blind manner, missing the obvious\u2014a good analogy for the present Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b8e0a41f3194305a8227fb23b6cf9ea\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the publisher?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da8a96a97a0345b19eb4274f30adbb87\u0022\u003ECHRIS AUCHINVOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Collins, I think\u2014and it was not printed in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EBut let us look at the title of this bill, the Education Amendment Bill 2004. Does it really amend education? Does it actually do anything for education without the excellent amendments from this side of the Committee? No, it does not. It simply amends which box to tick, because this Government is rapidly becoming known as a box-ticking Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWe heard earlier an impassioned speech from my colleague Allan Peachey, a man who is not exactly lacking in educational record and who is not exactly a low-level academic. In our family, I have seen my wife commit years of her life, her own time, to excellence in education. Teachers of that stamp will not be stopped from delivering, in spite of the efforts of the present Government to stop them. The problem is that the restrictive regulations imposed are merely an impediment. Members should think about it. They stand in the way of teachers delivering excellence. My colleague Mr King hopes that perhaps common sense will prevail over the time of this Government, but the tragic truth is that it will not. I guess, though, that we in the National Party can be grateful for one thing: by denying the amendments, which would have been useful and would have made this bill of some purpose, the present Labour-Progressive - part-time other-parties Government has established a point of difference between us and the public, and the public will show us the favour at the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003EWe have heard today a mayday call. Earlier today in the Chamber, reference was made to the mayday call. The origin is from the French word \u201Cm\u2019aidez\u201D, which translates as \u201CHelp me!\u201D. During the debate, I heard the voices of children saying: \u201CHelp me!\u201D. Labour members did not hear them, do not hear them, and will not hear them or anybody else. They were not always deaf, but, boy, are they now\u2014and the voters know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022afd29a80e7cb470f837004dde5bc6de2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000561\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 25 in the name of the Hon Steve Maharey to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223f4d338fb05b4488aafde550051806bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002227fa882407f24129939d87086ab9b891\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000562\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000563\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d72f2e2fa7b4474aac572e4b4d63223f\u0022\u003ECoroners Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b46993190ab4edd811e429f72657bbd\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a331211b877d4051b9a2b0ee5e2d21f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a331211b877d4051b9a2b0ee5e2d21f1\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Coroners Bill be now read a second time. The Coroners Bill reforms the coronial system to improve the quality, consistency, and timeliness of coroners\u2019 investigations and decision making, and to take better account of the needs of families. The bill repeals and replaces the Coroners Act 1988. The Government introduced the Coroners Bill, firstly, to enhance public confidence in the integrity and independence of the coronial system; secondly, to take better account of the diverse social, cultural, and spiritual needs of families; thirdly, to maintain the need to understand the causes and circumstances of death in a timely way; and, fourthly, to promote cooperation between coroners and other agencies also involved in the investigations of deaths. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the Justice and Electoral Committee for its work on the bill. The committee dealt with some difficult issues, such as the retention of body parts and bodily samples, and the making public of the details of self-inflicted deaths. I want to highlight two areas in the bill that have received particular attention. The first is about the reporting of suicide deaths. The bill largely continues existing restrictions on the making public of details of deaths that appear to be suicide. Like the committee, the Government gave considerable thought to whether to continue the restrictions. Suicide affects all sectors of the community, regardless of age, economic status, or ethnicity. Youth suicide is clearly a tragic event and an area of legitimate concern for all New Zealanders. The most recent provisional suicide statistics published by the Ministry of Health reveal that, contrary to public perception, men between the ages of 25 and 44 years continue to have the highest age-specific suicide rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe reasons behind New Zealand\u2019s suicide rates are complex. Possible explanations include the increasing rates of depression, alcohol and drug abuse, changes in the family structure, and the trends towards a more risk-taking society. What is clear is that suicide is a sensitive area for family members. Families struggling emotionally with a bereavement by suicide often feel stigmatised, shamed, and socially isolated by the death, as well. It is important that those families\u2019 privacy be given due weight and consideration and not be trampled on by others seeking to sensationalise the tragedy for their own purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ESome people have suggested that removing the restrictions might improve public understanding of the issues and reduce the number of self-inflicted deaths. No evidence is offered for this, and it is contrary to overseas research. The Government supports the status quo until such time as health studies support a change. Studies show that the way the media report suicide can influence suicidal behaviour and increase the overall number of suicide deaths. The risk of imitative suicide means that we must take a more cautious approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe bill ensures that the coroner considers whether making details public is likely to have a detrimental effect on public safety. It also helps protect the privacy of deceased persons and their families. The bill is not about restricting freedom of the press. It does not prevent public discussion of the public health issue of suicide. It may restrict the publication of the particulars of a specific case, such as how the person died, but for good reasons: they are essentially private, family matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is about the number of coroners. This bill is a major reform of the coronial system and is widely supported. Central to the new system will be a team of mostly full-time, legally qualified, and well-trained coroners, led by a chief coroner. Working full time means coroners can develop and maintain expertise much more easily than coroners who deal with only a few inquests each year. This means that coroners will not have to juggle coronial work with other work commitments, so cases are likely to be completed more quickly. It also means that coroners will be able to spend more time building relationships with communities and groups that have special cultural and spiritual requirements following a death. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAppointing full-time coroners means that fewer people will be required. At present there are about 60, mostly part-time, coroners, many of whom deal with a small number of cases each year. Although some coroners are nearing retirement, many current coroners could continue in office for years to come. Under the new Act, all existing positions will be disestablished. However, all legally qualified coroners will be able to apply for positions under the new Act. Some existing coroners may not wish to work full time, but may be happy to continue their involvement as relief coroners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ESuggestions were raised by National members of the committee that coroners rely on coronial work for income and they will be financially disadvantaged if they are not appointed under the new Act. Those members suggest that coroners should be paid compensation for the loss of office. The Government does not agree. Coroners are judicial officers with a limited and specialised jurisdiction. They are not judges of a superior court, and the bill does not undermine judicial independence in a manner that requires Parliament to compensate them for loss of office. Most coroners work part time, and, apart from two full-time coroners, coroners are paid fees set by regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAs an example, a coroner who receives a report of a death but decides not to hold an inquest is paid a fee of $80. A coroner who completes an inquest lasting less than 2 hours is paid $250. A coroner is paid at a rate of $100 per hour for an inquest lasting more than 2 hours. The fees I have listed account for most of a coroner\u2019s role. Most coroners do not earn a significant income from coronial work, and those who do are well qualified to be considered for appointment under the new Act. The bill allows former coroners to continue in office to complete inquests and to deal with any deaths that have been reported to them. Coroners will be paid any fees due to them for the work they have done. The existing coronial system needs to be wound up so that we can put the new system in place. This bill will give us a much better coronial system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI now want to mention briefly some of the valuable contributions the committee made towards improving the bill to be more responsive to families. The coronial process is distressing for people who have lost a close family member. We want to ensure that the coronial system responds to the needs of families, and also to ensure that the wider public can have confidence in an excellent coronial system. Some of the changes include: firstly, returning body parts and bodily samples to the family, only when specifically requested; secondly, ensuring coroners perform their duties without delay; thirdly, maintaining a register of coroners\u2019 recommendations; and, fourthly, considering the location of family members, interested people, and witnesses when fixing the place for the inquest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI am confident that this bill will enhance public confidence in the coronial system; improve the quality, consistency, and timeliness of coronial decision-making; and take better account of the cultural and spiritual needs of families. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022879bb4a5349b415b82d9fcec5a6b0189\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022879bb4a5349b415b82d9fcec5a6b0189\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E With my colleagues Chris Finlayson and Nicky Wagner, I indicate that National supports the second reading of this bill, but the bill is not without controversy. I hope that the aspirations the previous speaker expressed in respect of this legislation in the form that it has been modified by the Justice and Electoral Committee will truly come to pass. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EA coroner is either an officer of a special court\u2014a medical officer\u2014or an officer of law responsible for investigating deaths, particularly those happening under unusual circumstances. Many jurisdictions have the office of coroner or its equivalent; \u201Cmedical examiner\u201D is a frequent alternative title in the United States, as those who watch programmes such as CSI will know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is in the general interests of the community that any sudden, unnatural, or unexplained death should be investigated. To reflect this, the role of coroner has adapted over almost eight centuries since the office was formally established in 1194. The role has changed, of course, from being a form of medieval tax-gatherer to being an independent judicial officer charged with the investigation of sudden, violent, or unnatural death. The duties of the early coroners were varied, and they included the investigation of almost any aspect of medieval life that had the potential benefit of revenue for the Crown. So suicides, about which the previous speaker made mention, were investigated on the grounds that the goods and chattels of those found guilty of the crime of self-murder, as it was called\u2014or, in the old Latin, felo de se\u2014would then be forfeited to the Crown, as were wrecks of the sea or fires, and any discovery of buried treasure in the community. Dealing with treasure trove remains one of the coroner\u2019s duties in the United Kingdom today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESudden death in the community has been considered important since the early days of the office, and it was also investigated by coroners, although for reasons far different from those of today, as I have indicated. The coronial system continued to adapt over the centuries, but in the 19th century major changes relating to the investigation of deaths in the community occurred. In 1836 the first births and deaths registration Act was passed. That legislation was prompted by public concern and panic caused by inaccurate, parochial recording of the actual numbers of deaths arising from epidemics such as cholera. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere was also a growing concern that given the easy and uncontrolled access to the numerous poisons, and the inadequate medical investigations into the actual cause of death, many homicides were going undetected. By then, of course, the fiscal responsibility of the coroners had diminished. The Coroners Act of 1887 made significant changes that repealed much of the earlier legislation, and the focus changed so that coroners were more concerned with determining the circumstances and the actual medical causes of sudden, violent, and unnatural deaths. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would also like to say something about the events that led to this legislation. The current legislation is contained in the Coroners Act 1988. It is right to say that public dissatisfaction about the relationship between coroners and grieving families, and the need for better recognition of cultural and spiritual values in the coronial process, was a major impetus in the reforms proposed by the Law Commission. The issues raised by the Law Commission, unsurprisingly, occur in a range of cultures and religions. Those of us from Auckland who are members of Parliament would be very much aware of that issue. There is, of course, an inherent tension between, on the one hand, the family\u2019s right to mourn and bury its deceased, and, on the other hand, the State\u2019s obligation to ascertain the cause of death. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EConducting an internal post-mortem examination disturbs families and may well conflict with their cultural or religious practices. However, the reality is that the cause of death can often not be established without conducting a post-mortem examination. What we see in this bill\u2014and, I think, successfully\u2014is the striking of an appropriate balance between the cultural and spiritual needs of families, and the public good associated with understanding the causes and circumstances of death in an accurate and timely way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI do not plan to traverse the detail of the bill and its significant highlights. Other speakers who follow me will talk to some of the issues that give us pause to reflect, such as the question of the reporting of suicides, the need for those who are appointed coroners to be professional, and, of course, the changes that have been made to the bill\u2019s provisions relating to the taking and retention of bodily samples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBut I would like to deal with one issue that was rather brushed aside by the Minister\u2014unfortunately, brushed aside, I would say. The issue that concerns National members relates to clause 132 and schedule 3. Two clauses in schedule 3 are relevant. Clause 2 of schedule 3 provides that on the old legislation expiring, \u201Cevery former coroner vacates office\u201D. So the existing coroners who have given good and faithful service to the people of New Zealand are to be removed from those positions. It is as harsh as that. Worse still, clause 3 of that schedule states: \u201CNo former coroner is entitled to compensation for loss of office\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker said that coroners are judicial officers. There might be an argument in that regard, and he was most unwise, in my view, to make that admission, because it is important to record that under the existing Coroners Act, coroners are appointed by the Governor-General by warrant. They have tenure. They have an ability to continue until reaching the age of 68. That was certainly the position until it was later modified to give them further tenure until the age of 72. Until 2004, when a change was made to the legislation, coroners had some very specific judicial rights and responsibilities. They had the powers, privileges, authorities, and immunities of a District Court Judge exercising jurisdiction under the Summary Proceedings Act 1957. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo the Minister would say\u2014and I am happy to agree with him, on this particular point\u2014that coroners were judicial officers and that they continued as judicial officers. We all know, as a matter of elementary law, that judges and judicial officers cannot simply be dumped from office. There are very clear provisions dealing with that issue in the Constitution Act. More significantly, and reflecting the protection given to judicial officers, coroners can be removed from office only for \u201Cinability or misbehaviour\u201D. There is no suggestion in what the Minister has said that those coroners who have given good service are in some way unable or misbehaving. Instead, the Government, in clear breach of constitutional convention, is riding roughshod over coroners\u2019 rights by denying them the tenure that the statute has given them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Justice\u2014wrongly, National would say\u2014has taken the view that cancelling coroners\u2019 warrants by statute is not unconstitutional. But even if that view is correct, real care needs to be taken to respect the constitutional provisions that have for their purpose the protection of the separation of powers doctrine. When I say that, I am talking about the fact that there are three elements in a democracy constituting that power structure\u2014the legislature, the executive, and the judiciary. What is happening here is that Parliament is being asked to break down the ramparts in respect of the judicial function. That is wholly wrong. I conclude by saying that we do not doubt that a number of coroners would have made commitments on the basis of their security of tenure. That is now to be threatened by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6c16c8654224fed962742f6b6551af4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6c16c8654224fed962742f6b6551af4\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E It is with great pleasure that I commend the Coroners Bill to the House. The Coroners Bill repeals and replaces the Coroners Act 1988. In doing so, it enhances public confidence in the coronial system by improving the quality of coroners\u2019 investigations and decision making, thus taking better account of the diverse needs of families. The Law Commission became aware of concerns about coronial practice while consulting with M\u0101ori for its review of succession law, and it wrote a separate report on the Act that was tabled in August 2000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EThe bill draws on both the Law Commission\u2019s recommendations and the Government\u2019s review. The key elements of the bill include establishing the office of the coroner\u2014a chief coroner\u2014moving to a smaller number of mostly full-time, legally qualified coroners; ensuring families are notified, and kept notified at significant steps, of the coronial process; introducing a regime for retention and release of body parts and bodily samples; and enhancing the inquiry and inquest processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E I thank the members of the Justice and Electoral Committee, who, I think, generally put politics aside and worked to give careful consideration to this bill, which was well-deserved. In saying that, I just have to make a little comment on the previous speaker, Dr Richard Worth, who has become the advocate for the workers in this case. This is quite ironic when he belongs to a party that advocates sacking at will in the first 3 months of employment and slashing workers\u2019 rights and entitlements. I also thank the staff and advisers on the select committee, who worked so diligently to ensure that all the points made by submitters were addressed and carefully considered. I thank the submitters who submitted to the committee, often in very painful circumstances. I want to say in the House how important this contribution was in the consideration of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI thank the coroners who presented to the committee and also the Royal Federation of New Zealand Justices of the Peace Associations. In doing that, I give recognition to the service of coroners under the current system and also the JPs who have made a major contribution as relief coroners over many years. This bill in no way denigrates their contribution but recognises that a professional coronial system with a team of full-time coroners will build on the current system and provide resources and support for those who work in the system in any way, and also for those who use the coronial system\u2014including families and the public\u2014who are often going through a period of intense grief. I am really proud to stand and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002206b56c5a59f34d688e83e1623cadc71c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206b56c5a59f34d688e83e1623cadc71c\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Like the member for Waitakere, I too am pleased that this bill has now come back to the House for its second reading debate. As the report states, it was referred to the previous Justice and Electoral Committee on 14 December 2004. It comes back about 18 months later\u2014an elephantine gestation period of the sort that bedevils so much legislation in this House. There must be ways in which, on non - party political but important matters of principle, this kind of legislation can get through the House rather quicker than this bill has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI begin by congratulating the member for Waitakere on the way she chaired some very sensitive hearings. As she said, we had a number of submitters before us, and there were some very difficult issues that needed to be grappled with. I think the committee worked very well indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt is an important debate and it raises some very important questions, some of which have been touched on by the Minister and some by my friend Dr Worth. As Dr Worth said, the office of coroner is an ancient one in the State; it goes back to medieval times. As he also said, the coronial court is a court of record, which is very important. He touched on the reasons for that in his speech, and I will say something about it myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe Coroners Act 1988 was well overdue for reform. As the member for Waitakere said, the regime that operated under that Act has now been replaced by a regime of full-time coroners and gone are the days where, for example, justices of the peace would act as acting coroners. I join with the member for Waitakere in acknowledging the huge contribution to the process of justice by justices of the peace over the years. I know of one justice of the peace in Wellington\u2014a good friend of mine\u2014who was required to be an acting coroner, normally at the most inconvenient times. With no pay whatsoever, she was always available when the police contacted her about untimely deaths, and she did an excellent job. The service by Mrs Bernadine Pool of Wellington as an acting coroner has been reflected across the country by the service of numerous justices of the peace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe Minister outlined key changes introduced in this bill. I really want to touch on three. The first concerns the need for expeditious hearings. I am pleased that the committee saw fit to include what appears in the bill as clause 4A, which is a statement of principle, but it also emphasises to coroners the need for them to conduct their functions, powers, and duties without delay. The committee received a number of submissions that addressed the length of time it sometimes takes to deal with coronial hearings and, as we heard from the people making submissions to the committee, that can place huge stress on the families of deceased people. It is in the interests of justice, of finality, and of the families of the deceased that a coronial inquiry be conducted as quickly as possible. As the clause notes\u2014and I will say a bit more about it in the Committee stage of the debate\u2014the primary consideration must, of course, be that of justice. Coroners obviously cannot be permitted to cut corners in order to reach a quick result, and it must also be practicable to conduct an inquiry without undue delay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe second issue that the Minister touched on, which is a very important issue, concerns clauses 61 to 63 and the restrictions on the making public of details of self-inflicted deaths. The committee\u2019s report states that we found this a difficult task. We debated it at length. We were very lucky to receive some excellent submissions. I have to say to the House that this issue has troubled me greatly over the past few weeks; indeed, it is the most difficult issue that I have had to deal with in the short time I have been in Parliament. I think it is in the interests of New Zealand that there be a proper debate in the House on this issue, both in the course of this reading and in the Committee stage of the bill, because\u2014as is obvious\u2014suicide, and particularly youth suicide, is a major health issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 61 substantially re-enacts what was in the 1988 Act. It is very broad indeed and it applies even before the matter comes before the coroner. I refer members to subclause (1). In the case of a suspected suicide, the media may not state\u2014even in a news item\u2014how the person died unless they have the authority of a coroner, and I really do grapple with the issue of whether it is in the public interest that we have such a protective provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOn the one hand, we had very powerful submissions from, for example, the New Zealand Press Council, and I will quote what it said because it is very important. The council was concerned with the issue of freedom of expression and said that issue was at the very heart of its submissions: \u201CThe Council is strongly of the view that the present statutory provisions inhibiting publication of information and discussion of self-inflicted deaths with no proposed change in the bill are against the public interest. Whatever the reasons in the past for the restriction, they have now been overtaken by the wish of the public to be informed and to discuss the major health issue of suicide, particularly for the young.\u201D The submission was prepared by the Press Council under the chairmanship of Sir John Jeffries, for whom I have enormous respect, and it was presented by Justice Paterson, for whom I also have great respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe key issue is that the print media recognises suicide as a grave social issue. The Press Council described it as one of urgent public interest, but it had to confront what it called the \u201Cimpenetrable thicket\u201D of the current Coroners Act restrictions. The council acknowledged that editors need to continue the utmost responsibility to readers while exercising freedom of the press. It stated that reports of suicide should be tempered by awareness of the language used and by the way articles are used and treated, and, where possible, reports should be accompanied by information about where help is to be found. The council stated that the best way of dealing with this is to reinforce self-regulation in the press rather than to rely on restrictive statutory prohibitions. In concluding its submission, the council stated that the press has a crucial role to play in any public debate about suicide, and its causes and effects. It subscribes to the philosophy of the Canadian Suicide Information and Education Collection centre, which is that suicide affects us all and that we should talk about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe contrary argument is comprehensively covered in the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s report, and I will not repeat it here. As I have said, I and, I believe, other members of the committee found this a very difficult issue. I acknowledge the importance of freedom of the press and the force of what the committee said in its report. Indeed, since the bill came back to the House I have been making inquiries of people who have had a suicide in their family. One particularly sad case involved friends of mine whose son committed suicide. The mother told me she favours liberalisation of reporting. She thinks that the issue does need to be addressed by the public of New Zealand. So I hope that over the next few weeks as we look at this bill, we will debate it in a manner that befits the hugely important topic we are dealing with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFinally, Dr Worth has already covered the issue of transitional arrangements, so I will be brief. I have a problem, as other National members do, about the transitional arrangements. The Minister said that most coroners are not really full-time coroners. The reality is that many coroners in this country who are lawyers have given up their practices to concentrate on coronial work. I refer, for example, to Garry Evans, a noted defamation and workers\u2019 compensation lawyer in Wellington for many years in the firm of O\u2019Regan Arndt Peters and Evans. I know for a fact that although he is not a full-time coroner, in effect his old practice has gone because he has needed to concentrate on coronial work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe in the National Party are concerned about those people if these transitional arrangements apply, because they would cease to operate as coroners and would be cut loose. I would have thought that, after years of doing coronial work, they would not get back into full-time practice easily. So the constitutionality is something we will discuss during the Committee stage. I know the Government obtained an opinion from Crown Law. The coroners, in fact, obtained an opinion from the former Deputy Solicitor-General Mary Scholtens QC, and I happen to prefer her opinion because I think it is correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThose are the three issues I wish to address in the second reading debate, but particularly I wish to focus on the issue of suicide. I have had grave difficulty grappling with the policy issues involved there. From my point of view, it is a very finely balanced debate. So I will spend some more time thinking about it before the Committee stage, and I hope that other members will as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5d44b8d56df4eb28f0488151ff20f7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5d44b8d56df4eb28f0488151ff20f7a\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I, like previous speakers, rise to support the Coroners Bill, although I do so on behalf of the Green Party. We support the bill because it is a good piece of legislation. When the bill was introduced into the House, I spoke in the first reading debate about the many positive aspects of it. The process of the bill going through the Justice and Electoral Committee, where all the political parties worked in a very cooperative and constructive manner, has strengthened the bill and made it better. It is a good example of how this House can, at times, grapple with important issues. It is not the hottest topic on the political agenda but it is extremely important to those who are affected, because these issues are enormously sensitive. So the bill is a very good example of how members of this House can work together on these important issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThere have been numerous criticisms of coroners in the past. Some coroners have worked extremely well, and some, I think it is fair to say, have been lacking. We heard some of those issues raised at the select committee, and members will have heard about them out among the public, as well. During the select committee hearings I became more convinced that the bill was important, was needed, and was an effective way to address a number of those problems. In particular, establishing coroners as a professional body whose members are primarily full-time, and that has a proper structure and oversight, means that many of the problems that have been identified in the past can be tidied up. There is some possibility of making a formal complaint and addressing problems that exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EOne of things the bill does is start to rectify some of the power imbalance that has existed in the past. Clause 30, \u201CCriteria for decision whether to direct post-mortem\u201D, is important stuff. For the family of a deceased person, the idea that their loved one will go through a post-mortem is quite a traumatic prospect. So there have to be very clear guidelines around the basis of the decision as to whether a post-mortem will happen. It is good to see those things laid out like that in the bill, as well as there being the right to object to a post-mortem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI regret that one of the issues I would have liked to see addressed at the select committee was not picked up, and that was in relation to who may attend the post-mortem. Clause 36(1)(d) talks about, among a number of other people, \u201Ca doctor, nurse, or funeral director attending as the representative of the family of the person \u2026\u201D. Although it is good to have that provision there, one of my concerns is that it does not necessarily pick up all the people who may have a good reason to attend the post-mortem. In particular, I think about people who may represent the family, and are not a registered doctor, a nurse, or a funeral director, but who are versed in issues around dead bodies. I understand that in M\u0101ori culture there are people whose specialist knowledge is in dealing with the deceased. I know that is true in other cultures as well, and I would have liked to see the select committee recognise that through some explicit mention in the bill. Unfortunately, that did not happen, but those people are still covered in paragraph (h): \u201Cany other person, if authorised \u2026\u201D. So although there is no specific mention of those people, there is still some provision for that to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EA couple of issues in the recommendations of the committee are particularly worth highlighting. One of them is around the issue of body parts and bodily samples. Committee members heard from people who talked about the very real sensitivities around bodily samples, as opposed to body parts. We all understand what body parts will be. Bodily samples are minute samples. Often a thin sliver of tissue is taken for some kind of analysis, and it may be held for some time. The committee heard that, sometimes, returning those very small samples\u2014less than matchbox size\u2014to families some time after they have buried their family member can be enormously distressful and can be a real issue for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThere may be quite important public health reasons for retaining some of those samples for further analysis. Of course, in those kinds of circumstances the family must always retain the right to have that sample returned, but it seemed to the committee that there was value in making a distinction between body parts and bodily samples. Body parts will always be returned to the family unless the coroner directs that they should be retained for a very specific purpose, and very clear parameters as to what that purpose can be are set out in the bill. Bodily samples are somewhat different because of the reasons I have mentioned. The family can always request that they be returned, but we thought it was useful to make a distinction between how those were treated in the legislation, and that has been done in clause 43.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe issue of the reporting of self-inflicted deaths has been mentioned at some length by Mr Finlayson. It was something that exercised the minds of committee members to some degree and for some time. It is a sensitive issue, and we heard fairly strong submissions from media representatives in particular about the public interest in the reporting of suicide. I think there is a good case to be made in that we have an extremely high suicide rate in this country, and I think there is good argument to say we need a more informed and deeper public debate around those issues. The committee took that issue very seriously, but we had to balance it against other considerations. In particular, there are the sensitivities of families who are already going through a highly traumatic time. The details of the self-inflicted death of a family member being splashed in the media in some way is something that none of us would want to see done gratuitously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EAnother issue, of course, is the risk of increasing suicide. Although a bit of work still needs to be done on some of the evidence, the select committee was presented with reasonably strong evidence that the reporting of suicides can in some circumstances increase the incidence of suicide. It can lead to copycat methodology, which does not necessarily increase the number of suicides but may increase the number of a certain type of suicide. There is some evidence that the net amount of suicide can also be affected by media reporting. Nobody would want that to be a consequence of a decision made by the House. The select committee considered those matters very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWhen one works through the issues one sees that the bill strikes a reasonable balance. Only very restricted reporting is allowed before an inquiry has been completed, and the bill provides that once the coroner has found a death to be self-inflicted, no person may, without the coroner\u2019s authority, make public the particulars of the death, other than the person\u2019s name, address, and occupation, and the fact that the death has been found to be self-inflicted. That is highly restrictive, but the coroner may give authority for publication of other details. The only ground on which the coroner may do so is that the making public of particulars of that kind would be unlikely to be detrimental to public safety. That is quite a good provision, because if there is evidence that certain kinds of information are not likely to be harmful to the public good, then the coroner can authorise the publication of that information. Because of the way the provision is worded, the coroner can also take into account family sensitivity. That is important. The information can be published but only if it is not likely to be detrimental.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe committee, having grappled with the issue at some length\u2014and I share many of Mr Finlayson\u2019s concerns around it\u2014stuck with the bill pretty much as it was drafted. That is not a bad place to end up. When we think of the issue of text bullying, we see an excellent example of the leeway the media already have to report the issue of suicide. The media played a very responsible role and engaged in that debate in an informative and responsible manner, within the confines of the current legislation. That indicated to the committee that even under current restrictions there is some leeway to have that public debate, and that has to be the purpose of allowing media reporting. It seemed that maybe the kinds of changes the media were asking for were not necessarily vital in order to allow that public debate to take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002264cd5a06ed0d4d9b89be8f2b0ee67b25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264cd5a06ed0d4d9b89be8f2b0ee67b25\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will be supporting the progress of the bill through the House. I have to say that one of the reasons why legislation takes so long to be passed is that people spend so much time talking about things they have already agreed to, so I will not repeat the mistake by dragging this speech out any longer than I have to, but simply indicate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1cb825714d4a799f1b89f8c468e225\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: You weren\u2019t there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253b904e68bc14dea92a6c24609d23f6f\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is right. Dail Jones was on the Justice and Electoral Committee previously, and after its winding up and the report back to the House there was a new committee. I was not on that committee, and anyone who can read knows that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI simply say that the speeches given thus far have pretty much canvassed the entire issue, and it is good to know there are people with a degree of expertise in the matter who are able to speak in the House in respect of coroners and the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI say to the honourable Chris Finlayson that if the gentleman he knows is as confident, capable, and dedicated to the work as he suggested in his speech to the House, we would assume from our seats that he would be a likely contender to be appointed as a full-time coroner. So where is the problem? Indeed, where, then, does there lie a need for compensation? If such a gentleman were to be confirmed as a full-time employee, why would he need compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4f1fbc48463449ca399e4ebb536b3a1\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: What if he\u2019s not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c0c2281ee141e1a7cbcc5af5107d46\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are plenty of casual workers out there who get no compensation whatsoever, and we are still waiting to see someone in the House pick up on the plight of the casual worker, who may get only 20 hours this week, 39.5 hours next week, and no hours the week after. I do not see a lot of heartbreak in the Labour Party camp about such an issue, and I do not expect to see it on the National side, because it is not an issue that it would\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e93c84f05e438dbb456c6ec54e3478\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: Come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287f37806dc3a4124a7a9e6d728641c65\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCome on!\u201D says Mr Clarkson, the member for Tauranga for one term. Is he telling me that no friends of his employ casual workers in their businesses, and that he does not know of workers who might get 5 hours one week and 20 hours the next week, and not be able to get a mortgage because they have no surety of income? In fact, these professionals who take on part-time work as coroners are in a far better position to protect themselves and their future than a casual cleaner who comes in to clean Mr Clarkson\u2019s office at 2 o\u2019clock in the morning, while Mr Clarkson is safely tucked up in bed snoring his head off, one would think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhen the bill came to Parliament, New Zealand First expressed some concerns about it, particularly the lack of uniformity amongst coroners, the varying experience levels, and the lack of leadership. The bill seems to take care of those issues. There is formalised training and ongoing employment on a full-time basis, which we supported. We also supported the concept that legislation should take into account spiritual and cultural beliefs, be they M\u0101ori, Indian, or whatever. Surely we are in an age where those issues should be taken into account. Clearly, the committee has done that work, and it is reflected in the legislation, and we applaud that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESome of the opposing views were that 54 mostly part-time coroners in New Zealand would have to step down without compensation, and that was something we noted when the bill was first introduced\u2014and I think Dail Jones spoke on that matter. There are concerns about how the changes will affect small communities in rural areas, with longer travelling distances to coroner hearings. I have not heard that mentioned here, but obviously the committee dealt with those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe also raised our concern about the clause dealing with immediate family and how widely that was defined. We note in the report back that the definition has been expanded further to include civil union partners. I guess one of the concerns we had when it comes to clause 31 is the right of some family members to object to the post-mortem of a deceased person. We expressed a concern that in a case where a close family member who fitted within this very loose, broad description of a family member was in actual fact a suspect in the death of the deceased person, through that clause that person would have an ability to prevent a post-mortem taking place. We signalled that that was an area of concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI guess our final area of concern, which has already been discussed by a number of members in their speeches, is the issue of making public details of self-inflicted deaths. We in New Zealand First do not believe that such a move would have been wise, and it is good to see that no such changes were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMy final comment relates to body parts and bodily samples. Again, it is good to see that finally we have in place clearly defined protocols, procedures, and rights and obligations, because it was the lack of such that led to Green Lane Hospital\u2019s discovery of babies\u2019 body parts. Being the father of a child who died in a cot death, I can tell members that the decision-making process is actually taken right out of parents\u2019 hands. We saw our own wee baby girl taken away, and we knew there was going to be a post-mortem. That was a very difficult thing to come to terms with, as grieving parents. To subsequently find out that there was now doubt as to whether we had received our daughter back completely intact was, let me assure members, an exceedingly distressing moment in our lives. Although we found that Tracey had not been in any way affected like that, our hearts went out to the thousands of parents who received the worst possible news\u2014that they had received their infant baby\u2019s body back minus pieces, without any knowledge whatsoever that that had been the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E It is pleasing to know that in this day and age in Parliament we have people who sit on select committees and work across party lines, and who do the work to ensure that the protocols, rights, responsibilities, and obligations are clearly defined in respect of such matters, as they have been in this bill. I commend the committee for its work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports the passage of this bill and looks forward to further debate during the Committee stage around some of the issues that were raised by Mr Finlayson in respect of compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc10d5bb67dd4edeb3d53b6be470874e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc10d5bb67dd4edeb3d53b6be470874e\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party): \u003C/span\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou te Whare. Last Sunday marked 6 years since the tragic, unnecessary, and preventable death of Steven Wallace. He was shot and killed by a police officer at Waitara on 30 April 2000. It also marked the point 1 year ago when Chief High Court Judge, Justice Anthony Randerson, ruled to the effect that coroner Gordon M\u0101tenga could restart the much delayed inquest into Steven\u2019s death. This inquest was originally scheduled to start on 21 May 2001. I can imagine the trauma for that family having to wait for so long and not being able to put their son to rest properly because bureaucracy kept him entwined in this world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWith that background in mind, therefore, the M\u0101ori Party was poised to see how this new Coroners Bill would advance M\u0101ori interests for the benefit of the nation. The aim of the bill, to reform the coronial system to improve its effectiveness and to ensure that the system responds better to the needs of bereaved families, including their cultural and spiritual needs, is somewhere along the track. In some ways we were a bit disappointed that the law commissioners who presented a discussion paper recommending a whole heap of things that would address the inadequacies of the current system were not, I believe, given the consideration that they should have been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are still concerned about some things, such as the reduction in the number of coroners to 20, which means it is highly likely that those positions will be regionalised. At a time of death families are often very traumatised, and one has a coroner only if one is in a traumatic situation. So to have to have a coroner whom the family may not know, who lives in another town\u2014and therefore the family will not have the opportunity to have somebody who is advocating for them who is able to ring the coroner as someone whom they know\u2014will, I think, create some difficulties for people who are in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe hope that when these people are appointed, our people will be able to have some input into the appointment of these coroners. We have only two M\u0101ori coroners at present. We believe that if M\u0101ori are not going to play a part as coroners, then it is very important that these coroners have cultural competency. We know, from our experience where I come from, how much power the police have in advising coroners to carry out post-mortems or to do whatever is required. We have had some very tragic situations. I listened to Ron, and I mihi to him for the loss of his daughter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E We had a niece from our marae who lost her child to cot death, but the police decided that she must have shaken her baby. I had to go to the hospital to support her while the police were interrogating her as she held her baby in her arms. They took her child and said that it had to have a forensic pathologist\u2019s report. Without the family knowing, the baby\u2019s eyes were removed and flown to Auckland. We as a wh\u0101nau had to wait for those eyes to be returned to Wanganui to be put back with the child so we could carry on with the tangihanga, and there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the child had been shaken at all. That is what I mean when I say the police have a huge amount of power, and we have seen it on more than one occasion at home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe as a party have talked about tikanga M\u0101ori being incorporated into the whole proceedings, and I know there has been a lot of talk about people being present at post-mortems. Of course, there has been an agreement that only certain people will be admitted. I think that is an issue for the wh\u0101nau. Although I agree that the circumstances and what happens during post-mortem can be very, very distressing, I still believe that families should have the right to determine who represents them during the post-mortem process. We know how important it is to our families when somebody dies. It does not matter what the circumstances are; but in our culture it is most important that the t\u016Bp\u0101paku is not left alone. The way in which the process has worked to date, where families have not been able to access their loved ones to be able to carry out karakia and to do all those things that are really important, creates trauma for families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are saying that with this legislation we hope we will see a huge change in the attitudes not only of coroners but also of police. We also hope that this legislation will be sent to every police station throughout the country so that the police can make sure these issues are addressed\u2014and addressed in a culturally appropriate way. I think Ron is right. It does not matter what the culture is; these issues impact on all cultures. We all have different values, and we have different ways of expressing our culture. Those should be taken into consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ELast week I had a very sad young woman come to my office to tell me that she had lost a daughter more than a year ago and that before Christmas, almost a year later, the body parts that had been taken at the time of her daughter\u2019s death were returned to her and her family. It was quite devastating for the family, because they did not know what to do with them. They were traumatised further by that experience. I think it is really important that coroners do notify wh\u0101nau if a post-mortem is required and if the removal of body parts is required. Wh\u0101nau should be informed of absolutely everything during that procedure. If we want people to cooperate, and if we want them to believe that all these things are being done in their best interests, then I would expect that they be fully informed. Also, they need to know that if they want to they can challenge the right to a post-mortem in the High Court. They need a good lawyer and they need to know what their rights are in a situation like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe look forward to seeing this bill come to fruition. We also look forward to seeing who the coroners will be, and we expect that M\u0101ori people particularly will be able to have a say on who the coroner in their region will be. N\u0101 reira, ka nui te mihi ki a koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00225f676c72317943f68f778d6b400d8dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f676c72317943f68f778d6b400d8dfb\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take just a brief call in support of this bill. I will begin by drawing on the very graphic examples that the member who preceded me has just presented to the House, as compelling evidence of why change is necessary. I think it is worth recalling for the House, at the risk of sounding like an aged veteran, that this current Act was passed in 1988, around the time that we were first coming to grips with the so-called \u201Cunfortunate experiment\u201D in Auckland, that the items Mr Mark referred to about the routine storing of babies\u2019 parts at Green Lane Hospital were not public knowledge, that there was a climate that really did not see the cultural issues that have been identified in this debate as being all that significant, and that the air of mystery that surrounded the process was still one that said that this was best left to doctors and coroners, and people who know about those things, and that families ought to be left out in the cold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThat was only 18 years ago, and things have moved a huge way in that time. Technology has changed. DNA sampling, which then was just a concept people mused about, is now a reality. So many horrific \u201Cunfortunate experiments\u201D have been revealed, that there is a new mood in the community for a far greater assertion of the rights of the family and those close to the deceased person, in terms of the way in which that person is treated through post-mortems and other such examinations. So it is timely that this bill picks up contemporary trends, and legislates in a way that recognises the concerns that are being expressed. I suspect that if one looked at the record from 18 years ago, when this measure was last debated, one would not see too much concern expressed about how long the process took. The view then would have been as long as we got a decision at some point. That is a measure of how much things have moved in the meantime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think that this bill is a positive step forward. I take the comment made earlier by a previous speaker about the elephantine progress of legislation. This Act may well be one that is kept under far more constant review than once every couple of decades, because I think that social attitudes, technology, and other things will change very rapidly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe second comment I want to make relates to the reporting of self-inflicted death or suicide. I am one who traditionally has held the view that the greater the degree of openness in these matters, the better. Over the years I have worked with a number of suicide prevention groups and other groups, and I have to say that my view has changed somewhat. I think that there is a very real danger\u2014and a lot of the evidence would support this\u2014of creating a situation where the worthy presentation of information about the risks in the situations people get up to actually creates a copycat syndrome. I think we have to be very, very careful about that. I respect immensely the legal mind and intellectual capacity of Sir John Jeffries, and I would be very heavily guided, in the normal course of events, by submissions that he might make. I believe that the submissions he prepared on behalf of the Press Council were well intentioned and noble, and that a man of his integrity would ensure that if the provision were liberalised, the law would be applied in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E But I do not have the same confidence with regard to the news media as a whole. I become somewhat anxious when the leading charge for change in this area, in the interests of making the public better informed and more aware, comes from our New Zealand news media. Because my view of them, frankly, in these matters is that the lurid and the sensational win out over the public interest every time. For that reason I think that the position recommended by the Justice and Electoral Committee, and I agree it is a close-run thing, is actually the correct one until we do not have a situation where the New Zealand media will treat getting the last sensational detail as a competitive advantage. I do not think, in the interests of our young people in particular, that we can afford to make the reporting of these circumstances more open than it is at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to make a comment about both Mr Mark\u2019s speech and Ms Turia\u2019s speech. Although I have experienced death at close hand, I have not had the experience of post-mortems. But I have talked to a number of people who clearly have been through that trauma. I think that anything that can be done, firstly, to give the family in those situations more information about what is going on and why; secondly, to assure them of dignity, courtesy, and respect in a process that is timely and considered; and thirdly, to be able to give some confidence that the system is actually undertaking these examinations for a purpose, not just because that is what it always does, has to be an advantage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI believe that the coronial system has served New Zealand well to date. I take my hat off to people such as the Wellington Coroner who I think has been an outstanding coroner, and I sincerely hope we do not lose his services as a result of this new legislation. But I think that this bill, on the whole, is a step forward, and it deserves to be passed into law at the earliest opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002271b3bf0a08a34110a5695cf1dda197cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271b3bf0a08a34110a5695cf1dda197cd\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a very quick call on this bill. I think the Justice and Electoral Committee has done a wonderful job and got the bill back in a very balanced format. I used to work in a hospital in liaison with coroners, undertakers, and funeral directors on a daily basis, and I drafted a member\u2019s bill when I first came into Government in 2000. I would like to thank our Ministers of this Government who picked that up and turned it into a Government bill, following on from the Law Commission report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis is a wonderful bill. It is needed. It is desperately needed by coroners around the country. They have been asking for support for the role of the office of the coroner, and also for cultural supporters to walk beside them. Coroners in the past were not appointed but were asked to consider undertaking the role. My husband, who was asked by T\u016Bariki Delamere, said: \u201CThank you, but no thank you.\u201D, even when he knew that M\u0101ori people really needed M\u0101ori coroners. But at that time one used the resources of one\u2019s own office entirely. One had no resources that went with the role of the coroner and no support whatsoever in terms of a network of coronial support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIn this bill there is a chief coroner and cultural advisers to the office of the coroner, and I think that that is the support coroners have been screaming out for, as well as for well-resourced positions. This position does have financial implications and I am really thrilled that the Government has picked that point up. Around the country coroners have been waiting for this bill. At every coroner\u2019s conference they have been asking the Minister when this bill would come in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI look forward to the next stage of this bill. One other issue that I think is very important is the reporting of the findings of death\u2014not just suicide, but the findings of death\u2014and linking that in to death review teams around the country. By looking at coroners\u2019 findings on those deaths we will certainly start to have an impact on suicide and unintended death in this country, and that will help many people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060502ab8aa901f85d4d37afca51d3f05136cd000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"