"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226eafeb5a79ad40f28ce069143b8a61b5\u0022\u003EWednesday, 3 May 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8856844d6974cf38a7d7c049dfa33f5\u0022\u003EWednesday, 3 May 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fae0e19bab249e0856af2184d20ed83\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5228cbe210145f086ee08258bf59c7a\u0022\u003EQuestions for Written Answer\u2014Replies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf395fc0b310431cbba8c1cbad7d9cbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf395fc0b310431cbba8c1cbad7d9cbc\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I bring to your attention an issue that appears to be arising more frequently. It is to do with written questions that are submitted to Ministers. A number of Ministers are now replying that they cannot answer the question in a particular time. It is becoming a little ridiculous. Recently, when a question that had previously been asked of a Minister was asked of him again, he simply replied that he had previously answered that question, and gave the number of it, and when the answer previously given was looked up it was found that it had been that he could not answer the question in the time allowed. So the Minister was asked the question twice, and he had been able to dodge answering it on both occasions. It would seem to me that that is not playing according to the Standing Orders, and is not being at all reasonable about the accountability that Ministers have to this House. Madam Speaker, I would ask you to consider ruling that Ministers should, wherever possible, either answer in the time frame available or indicate a time by which they may answer that question, as used to be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022b43bb7c9ace244f7b0d39ebfd4fb7495\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b43bb7c9ace244f7b0d39ebfd4fb7495\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I will certainly look into that immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022c48f4a30e5634953a3b11ab3487508c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c48f4a30e5634953a3b11ab3487508c7\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Following on from the shadow Leader of the House\u2019s comments, I seek your assistance in respect of written questions Nos 04226, 04227, 04228, and 04229. Each of those was an individual question to the Minister of Corrections asking for the original target budget for each of the four prisons. The response I had was that the information required to answer those questions could not be collated in the time allowed, which was 12 days. It seems very odd that that department had no idea of the original target budgets for those prisons\u2014and it had 12 days to answer. Madam Speaker, I seek your assistance to get action from Ministers who are using this excuse, which, on the basis that the information should be readily available to those Ministers, clearly has no merit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddfefd5027194dc5b1baf25c58d60157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddfefd5027194dc5b1baf25c58d60157\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I would remind members, of course, that holding replies are acceptable in principle, but I am very happy to look into specific instances. If you would like to refer those to me, I will follow them up immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224caed01bd08d4657a9c2f41546fb9f6d\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f4b2e83553b46efb32eed61e15cab66\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5b5e215b0a54f04bf42a126b15f6fc1\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Waiting Lists\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7b7a0ea54343618048a9d867e4e7d6\u0022\u003E1. Hon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How many patients does he expect this financial year will be removed from waiting lists and returned to their GP for ongoing care, and how does this number compare with the previous years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00221c60dbf581f7482ea927c26b141e44fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c60dbf581f7482ea927c26b141e44fd\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E First, let me thank the member for acknowledging that when patients are returned to general practitioners they are returned for ongoing care. About 5,000 a year have been returned to their general practitioners for ongoing care in previous years. So far this year it is about 6,500. Most of those have previously been placed in the active review category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225823d77074704cf795a4df9eb39663e1\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister stand in this House and say that only 6,500 people have been referred back to their general practitioner this year, when we know that the Hawke\u2019s Bay is about to send back 1,800, Waikato has sent back 3,000, Counties Manukau has admitted to sending 1,800 back, Canterbury has admitted to sending 2,000 patients back to general practitioner care this year, and there have been 400 in the Bay of Plenty; is the fact this, that this Minister does not want to admit that this crisis is getting beyond him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da2e894e0f8a445f980a3ac2f23041a3\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not the fact. The fact is that the member who has asked the question has confused surgery and specialist waiting lists. I have answered in respect of surgical waiting lists and will happily answer in respect of specialist waiting lists should he wish to put down another question another day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae389f215d19437c894d12e9b05d8c98\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: In what circumstances are people returned to the care of their general practitioner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022797692e6085a4cbfabdd43063928d6e1\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The main reasons are that their condition has not deteriorated as it might have\u2014these are the people in the active review category that I mentioned in my first answer. This is the booking system, introduced by the former National Government, the active review category, introduced by the National Government, and the \u201Creturn to GP\u201D idea, introduced by the National Government. But there are two other reasons. One is that the patient is currently medically unfit for surgery, and the other reason is that the patient has changed his or her mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf776c945c84e32ae418195ed4265c7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that this Minister does not know how many people have been dumped from waiting lists around the country\u2014that the figure is up to 3,000 in the Waikato, 2,000 in Canterbury, 1,800 in South Auckland, 1,800 expected in Hawke\u2019s Bay, and 1,100 in MidCentral District Health Board\u2014and who is responsible for the fact that so many thousands of New Zealanders are being sent back to their general practitioners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f02f27b7186548058783c8f890223714\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Now that it is clear that the member is talking about a specialist waiting list and not a surgical waiting list, I am happy to advise him as follows. There are 24,000 people waiting for a first specialist assessment who have been waiting for longer than 6 months. This is not satisfactory. Just to give the situation some context, however, I point out that when we became the Government the figure was not 24,000 but 41,000, and on top of that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a2e8ce0a47f45fbbd8156bbc884d880\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5263aff70c44e7f8866dc2a369d7c69\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members know\u2014[Interruption] Yes, members are losing control. Members are allowed to interject, but barracking so that others cannot hear is not permitted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022315daeea9af94436a53b3c53d40eefae\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Not only were 41,000 waiting for more than 6 months but a further 51,000 had been waiting for God knows how long. That totals 92,000. Now, in respect of the 24,000\u2014noting that we have three-quarters fixed the mess left to us by the previous Government, so how about a bit of credit\u2014some proportion will be seen by a specialist and some proportion will be returned to their general practitioner. These are individual decisions by district health boards. In Hawke\u2019s Bay, for example\u2014the area the member refers to\u20141,800 have been returned to their general practitioners in recent weeks. The Southland urology service, to give another example, had a very serious backlog, and every one of those people was seen by a specialist and none were returned to their general practitioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227eae8a551554cdbae3fd4aa30285c1b\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the first national cervical audit undertaken by Auckland University in 2004 that revealed that for 21 percent of M\u0101ori it took more than 6 months from their first high-grade smear until they were diagnosed, compared with 10 percent of non-M\u0101ori, and is the latest debacle at Waitemat\u0101 another example of that systemic bias; if not, how can such delays be accounted for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0f3af6c86204f49baefc00f00fb5ad8\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I regret to advise the member that I was not aware, but I do wonder, given the year that she spoke of, which of us was a health Minister at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f175d7c07c64a4b8965a2b31cdb4c60\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How many New Zealanders, many of whom, a specialist has said, need an operation, are now in the care of their general practitioner? How many people are in the care of their general practitioners\u2014which has effectively become the waiting list to get on the waiting list to get on the waiting list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022359a2a640dcb46fda993c59735c58f1a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, one cannot answer that question except to say that there are approximately 16 million visits to a general practitioner each year, and that, I guess, is the starting point. Some of those visits might be for coughs and colds, however.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a12d700c80ca41ff96c186381162f6d0\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister inquired as to how many people culled from waiting lists in the last year have actually died because they did not get an operation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930cc537648846daaa999bdea0867f72\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The issue of people dying while on, or off, waiting lists was raised by the ACT party approximately 18 months ago in this House. For some period of time the crisis makers of the day decided that people were going to die on a waiting list from the thing that was the reason they were waiting. Actually, when we go back over all of the details\u2014and the Ministry of Health did so back then\u2014we find that there were virtually no deaths on waiting lists from the thing that caused the people to be on that waiting list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb3fe955a99f43c89dd3e2adfe74db27\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This question was quite specific in referring to general practitioner care. It is completely out of order, and in no way can be interpreted as addressing the question, for the Minister to give an answer to a completely different question that he did not receive. How many people have died while under general practitioner care because they were sent off a waiting list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5420695a42941548e906e8d5054564a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister did give an answer to that, and the answer was that in terms of people dying of the thing for which they were on the waiting list, virtually none. The member might just as well ask how many people died who were not on a waiting list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b584c565ebb416bbd8430ceebd84c0b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister gave a very full answer. If he wishes to add anything more, I am sure the House would appreciate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa21642c29464dee9f56a3d77b5c4913\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: What characterises the health policy of this Government is very substantial attention to primary health care. So if someone dies without seeing his or her general practitioner, or having seen his or her general practitioner only once, and having failed to go back to the general practitioner because of, for example, price, or whatever reason, then help is on the way. The most remarkable changes to our health system are in the primary health-care system. [Interruption] I say to the member now\u2014but he has to stop talking for a little bit while I am talking, because he cannot listen and talk at once\u2014that we will discover in years to come, as the primary health-care strategy rolls out, that a whole lot of people will get care these days that they never would have received under a National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dacf1edc6c9740dba1122961208cd1ee\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: What would the Minister say to the people of Counties Manukau, whose children are getting less than half the number of elective tonsil operations they were getting 4 years ago; is that what he means by prioritisation\u2014that as each year goes by, South Auckland kids get fewer of the tonsil operations they need\u2014and does that not make an absolute mockery of his claim in his speech 2 days ago that child health is a priority under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b71f20f6fa74061bab7289b683a9fd4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Child health is a priority under this Government, and we are very proud of the programme of health care that we will roll out over the next 3 years in the child health area. As far as tonsillectomies are concerned, the member, who is himself a doctor, might like to advise the House whether the fashion for tonsillectomies is as high now as it was some years ago, and whether that might have anything to do with the change in provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022793c7a9adb5e471b95ae1aaea413695a\u0022\u003EPetrol\u2014GST\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df38a9a17db44f76860a25ffb4c5c70f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: How much has GST per litre of petrol increased in real terms since April 2000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00228ec616561cb74476b517ad6a75f2ace6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ec616561cb74476b517ad6a75f2ace6\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that GST per litre has increased in real terms by 6c over the last 6 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224352952e268d43b2a98d22cd443e1e50\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister inform the House as to what that represents per year in actual dollars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b222affde61940cfb390edb29494f3e0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that information to hand, but I can tell the House that because the rate of GST is 12.5 percent, the rate of increase over that period of time will have been constant. I can also tell the House that because GST is a consumption-based tax, there is no discernible impact on overall levels of GST income from a movement in one particular item, since people simply shift their budgets to accommodate that change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269179eeb048b42c7bdae887e506399d2\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that much of that increased revenue is a windfall gain, and, noting the United Future party\u2019s objection to a tax on a tax when it comes to rates, will he support New Zealand First\u2019s call to abolish GST on petrol, or at least to reduce it; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fbfd09efc1743a9a679c31fb3b6618c\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The point I made in response to the previous question applies here. The rate of GST receipts over the period in question does not reflect a significant shift, because when people spend more on petrol they spend correspondingly less on something else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f081e50571c74ba39b99e96096ef3339\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister doing to transfer a greater amount of the tax collected from petrol towards building new roads, rather than it being diverted into the Crown bank account, consistent with United Future\u2019s policy at the last election\u2014or was the bauble of ministerial office more important than United Future\u2019s policy on petrol tax and roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceb70e9f9f264fc988d459145da9c583\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: There are two points in response to that question. The area of transfer comes through the excise tax, which is the responsibility of the Minister of Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8d07862c9b4bfd8127408c97d0c081\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Pass the buck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9dec064927645e2a97719fbb6567cbc\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not going to pass the buck; I am going to spend the buck. The second point I was going to make was that as part of the agreement between the Labour-led Government and United Future, the funding previously set aside for the Wellington regional roading programme, initially for the proposed coastal expressway, will now, as a result of the changes that have been made in the Wellington region, be going towards Transmission Gully. That is a huge windfall for the people of Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263906dbd600b45278d92d854fa338b77\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received reports from his department in respect of prior efforts to divert a far greater proportion of road taxes to roading, in respect of two circumstances: in 1995, when a bill came before this House to do just that, and in 1999, when again the National Government torpedoed such efforts; what reports has he received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227417fdc698947c7a6c9b7cad5e978bb\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I am certainly aware of both of those incidents, having been in the House at the time. I am also aware that during the term of the last Parliament a very significant diversion into road funding was made, which beat any of the attempts that were formulated over previous years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7fe75b3f695495fadaf2b7be4757286\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the introduction of GST was accompanied by a very careful programme headed by a committee that recommended a flat rate of GST on the broadest possible range of consumption, and that the chairman of that committee was one Dr Don Brash?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022872085858a6340789f83c26a69087f15\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: I am very happy to confirm that point. In fact, one of the points of envy from many other countries over the years has been the one rate, universal application of our GST system, which Dr Brash so wisely recommended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d863ba590c241e3ac2a659b6403cad9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab2eec64fdbb494cb0f041bceb210882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab2eec64fdbb494cb0f041bceb210882\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call question No. 3, Phil Heatley. Question No. 4 then, Dianne Yates. Oh, the member wants to ask his question, question No. 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00226ff424f877e54f1aa0006047c7faddc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ff424f877e54f1aa0006047c7faddc4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. With respect, Mr Heatley lost his chance. You moved to question No. 4. There are punishments in this Parliament for being asleep, not on the job, and not being focused. He has just learnt them. [Interruption] If he wants any advice on that he should ask Tau Henare\u2014he is an expert on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f8e209cb7924603aac2996a6ad19726\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I am sure the member\u2019s attention was straying for just a moment. I ask Mr Heatley to please ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfcc11edc1994105911737fa92e4ca97\u0022\u003EHousing New Zealand\u2014Chairman\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276647bed781f4cc1a407d570b2824c36\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: In what specific ways did the Chairman of Housing New Zealand Corporation act \u201Cappropriately and promptly\u201D in respect of the allegations of accounting irregularities made by a former contractor and the associated gagging clause of that contractor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef328fff56f346429e54364d3715feba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef328fff56f346429e54364d3715feba\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E As far as I am aware, once the chairman saw the text of the gagging letter he immediately indicated that he regarded it as inappropriate and inquired into it. As far as I am aware, once the chairman was fully aware of all the circumstances of the allegations he set in train processes to inquire into them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dab4f33e4ec242419bee4777c32f9af8\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister have confidence that the chairman acted \u201Cpromptly\u201D, if he heard about the gagging clause from talkback radio some weeks before print media pressure forced him both to tell that Minister and to suggest an inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c2b60b73324104b63a7dbe46c69229\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It may come as a surprise to the member, but not everybody listens to talkback radio. I have an assurance from the chairman of the board of Housing New Zealand Corporation that he first learnt of the gagging order on 7 April\u2014the day I learnt of it from him\u2014and the inquiry was set up 3 days later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290cb940a828346b39859d5614ed9b574\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What matters will the inquiry conducted by the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General into allegations made against Housing New Zealand Corporation consider?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca0b38145134deb9f2f384003845d8b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Some of the matters the Auditor-General\u2019s inquiry will consider include the allegations made by the former contractor in an agreed statement of facts, any other allegations made by the contractor that the Auditor-General considers desirable to investigate, and the events leading up to the signing of the settlement agreement with the former contractor, including whether the chief executive authorised the agreement and was aware in advance of its terms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1eb4b8671124959b6786662b271d244\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the chairman say publicly that he knew of the gagging clause from talkback radio several weeks before he told the Minister, contrary to what the Minister is claiming in the House today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a5f57a38a85495b82570f2b9cf2b172\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am unaware of that allegation. I would be delighted to see some evidence from that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a25fd39c47244a3893381b529d713f7e\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister have confidence that the chairman acted \u201Cappropriately\u201D, if he broke the no-surprises agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229666de0d81c045fbb9b083d318a26630\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my opening statement to the House in answer to the first question, as far as I am aware, the chairman has acted entirely appropriately throughout this sorry saga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a3d51348b343568f5c56c1b98280d1\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister have confidence that the chairman acted appropriately if the chairman went to a \u201Cplease explain\u201D meeting with him promising an internal investigation by Housing New Zealand\u2019s usual auditors, Ernst and Young, but came out of the \u201Cplease explain\u201D meeting with the Minister promising an independent inquiry by the Auditor-General?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230595d12ba5640a9b77839284bc6feef\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: People are entirely able to change their mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e127b9d0e22b4a358f644f831042ebf5\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister very, very sure the chairman did not know about the gagging clause soon after the letter was signed in December, given that he knew about the allegations of accounting irregularities in September and as a good chairman presumably would have followed this up by asking the chief executive whether the matter had been resolved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6f35621543e4bbd97e69f89e9794dde\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can only repeat to the House that the chairman of the board has told me that he found out about the gagging order on 7 April, the same day that I found out about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272c030c5712a4e11b2162cc5f9b2148b\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a report stating that the chairman said he heard about the gagging clause on Newstalk ZB some weeks before he told the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff74564d8641414aaa2959f883f0625a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0d5ade322a1410b9b38943255088f4d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the terms of reference for the Auditor-General\u2019s inquiry into certain allegations involving the Housing New Zealand Corporation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a43f9228bde241acbf332c49c949758b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wish to clarify that I objected to the earlier seeking of leave because I thought that the member was referring to a newspaper report. If the member can clarify that it was not a newspaper report, then I am happy to go along with the granting of leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a8b8088d8d490b94a57a07e6504fd8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the moment has passed unless the member wishes to put it again. Does Mr Heatley wish to put it again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5572d3ea42a45669a9804ba3b4b9a2a\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a report where the chairman stated that he heard about the gagging order on Newstalk ZB a few weeks before he told the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6d8d86112a4cc78508bab70b8373e4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection\u2014[Interruption] Sorry, is it a newspaper article? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c33a31617c46a995db32c1371a264b\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: It is a newspaper report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebdd054f897742069b740d4ec07ca045\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is objection. That has clarified the point; at least we have that clarified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb92e0c751cc4b9b8b3cec94cd230c30\u0022\u003EUnited States - New Zealand\u2014Partnership Dialogue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242bbb779eac64eff8d3b99146d0bbcad\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Trade: What reports, if any, has he received commenting on the outcome of the United States - New Zealand partnership dialogue held in Washington recently?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd8969184aca4f898890037084bf76e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd8969184aca4f898890037084bf76e6\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I have received a number of reports, all favourable. I think the mood of the participants at the dialogue was best summed up by the New Zealand Herald, which stated that the event was \u201Can overwhelming positive and can only help to create renewed understandings which will ultimately benefit New Zealand business.\u201D I think the dialogue did move the relationship forward, in a way that was really helped by the delegates from this country taking a \u201CNew Zealand Incorporated\u201D approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c53792108538439289e3396d9f7206fe\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: What level of support emerged from the American side to strengthen the relationship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f627afabf764d8ab2900703d955dcb8\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I think there was strong high-level support from the American side, which did succeed in taking the relationship forward. In particular, I welcomed the strong support that was received from assistant secretary of State Chris Hill for the relationship, and the very strong comments that came from the president of the US Chamber of Commerce, Tom Donohue, who was very much in favour of a free-trade agreement. But most important, I think, was the ground-breaking article co-authored by Richard Armitage and Randy Shriver in the Asian Wall Street Journal. That came out very strongly in favour of a free-trade agreement and a closer defence and security relationship with New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf22ce94efe4a8c8e21dc2c54d94f70\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Bring back Winston! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227987bc9cefcd46bb965ee7b6b4264ad5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Tau Henare has anything to say, I invite him to ask a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cfe84db98b948e28c6e1fec5170fdbb\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: To what extent will the dialogue help to achieve a free-trade agreement and closer security cooperation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a36a46ce1cd4436aadb72945f00d737\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was a step in the right direction. In trade, it builds on other positive support that New Zealand has received, and in particular the very positive letter from Senators John McCain and John Sununu to the President in support of a free-trade agreement. The National Association of Manufacturers has also put New Zealand in the top five of the countries it wants a free-trade agreement with. However, it is true that there are time and resource constraints with the United States Trade Representative, and that means our negotiations have to be seen as a medium, as well as a short-term, objective. Briefly, on the security front, I think the fact that New Zealand works very closely with the United States on counter-terrorism and counter-proliferation\u2014and that point was highlighted\u2014also helped with the relationship between the partners at the partnership dialogue. I would like also to congratulate National members on their positive support for the Government\u2019s position in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d04e515e38094f99a68c06fac5e2ff2c\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Results\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ce4b258466406ea3e7a28b1944f30a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What evidence has he received that supports his official\u2019s statements that the NCEA process ensures \u201Cresults are consistent and fair\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00220f430a0bd65b44c58a12973aa1e9f067\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f430a0bd65b44c58a12973aa1e9f067\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) national statistics released 3 weeks ago demonstrated the fairness and consistency of NCEA results in 2005. They show that over 70 percent of the results of the 335 external standards were within expected ranges. Where they fell outside those expected ranges, the marking schedules were checked to ensure fairness and consistency, and in a small number of standards exams were re-marked to ensure no student was treated anything other than fairly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257b34d5714224ecea46a6fac4eeeac40\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the evidence he has described is not regarded by assessment experts as giving any reliable assessment of the fairness of the exam; and can he tell us whether the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has any evidence that uses internationally standard measures of fairness and reliability, and measurement of error?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022729e046eb8a644d298beed5d86b89b3c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Because the member never provides names of anybody, I assume he may be referring to Warwick Elley, who said that 40 out of 140 standards in 10 subjects had variable failure results. I just want to assure the member that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority disagrees with Professor Elley, and will be publishing a response to him in the next few weeks. In relation to whether we can talk about issues that the member often raises around, I think, a view that NCEA ought to be norm referenced, no, we do not have that kind of reliability. But we do rely, of course, on the fact that we have a very professional group of teachers who are setting and examining these results, and as we are able to develop over time the body of information that we get from the national statistics\u2014which were released just 3 weeks ago\u2014we will get a very reliable picture of NCEA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809bbd9da74d4668a6110f738db1e501\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What else did the NCEA 2005 exam statistics show?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f665d6df975d4406bfb0b08128cdcfb4\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The national statistics show that more students than ever are gaining qualifications: 72.5 percent of students achieved the level 1 literacy standard, which is up from 69 percent in 2004; 78.8 percent achieved the level 1 numeracy standard, which is up from 75.7 percent in 2004; the percentage of year 11 students on the school roll achieving level 1 NCEA went up from 52.5 percent; to 56.4 percent. The number of M\u0101ori and Pacific Island students leaving school without qualifications has fallen by 10 percent in the last 2 years and, of course, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority put in place improved processes to ensure consistency and fairness, so that we had an exam season without drama, except for the drama brought up by Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80875ce4c1346a3b23be447598820c7\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: What is the nature of the research currently being undertaken by the Ministry of Education into the motivational effects of NCEA on students, and when will the results of this research be made public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201cea26b48a74caf9a7cb4439b0013a1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: We do have to look at the issue of how students view NCEA, and research has already been released around this, which is largely just the views expressed to researchers by students. A more reliable picture will build up in July this year when research that is being undertaken by the Ministry of Education will be released on student motivation, and that will be used by us as we go forward and look at what students are choosing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e64f494c92442abda2880120d345be\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the New Zealand Qualifications Authority decided that results in NCEA can fluctuate by up to 10 percent per year, whereas every other test applied to New Zealand children, whether by New Zealand agencies or overseas ones, has a variation of a maximum 2 to 3 percent per year, and can he explain to the House why the authority\u2019s standards are so completely different from those used by every other testing regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da8f5c13731a46ea9f27e588e3b80d92\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: One of the things about the history of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2019s work with NCEA is, of course, too much variability. But one pleasing thing this year is that we have seen much less variation, so that every assessment expert whom we have had available to us, including people like John Hattie who has been part of the ministerial reference group, has said that this year the variation is fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c3af01aeac14ef7b5e5a2e5193585ad\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain a geography standard on country development where 1,250 students passed the standard out of 5,000 who sat it, but if those students had sat the standard last year another 1,000 would have passed, and how fair is that to those 1,000 students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8a797ce8b7840b69028d93fb541e31b\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Accepting the point I made before that one of the admitted problems of NCEA historically has been its variation\u2014which this year, pleasingly, has been brought within bounds that people accept is fine\u2014I tell the member that one of the things he has to remember is that this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221187882233a1459ea82af48a68c67821\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: That is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223543a9ee3d734ca88f82a7b869f2040e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014would the member be quiet for just a tick\u2014is a standards-based system. Standards are set each year, and the standards this year were set in a way that people regard is fine, and the variation is fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e6320710e4941aeba67c6374932ba9c\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence-based explanation can the Minister of Education give the House to explain why, in the 2005 NCEA assessments, failure rates fell outside the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2019s expected levels in 47 of the standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a595e9cb1f545558f5fd994b75c9fc9\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not have been listening to my answer to the original question from Bill English when I pointed out to Mr English that for 70 percent of the 335 standards, things have gone exactly as we would have expected. For some of the standards the marking schedule was checked to make sure of fairness and consistency, and, in some cases, exams were re-marked so that we got fairness and consistency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dabcadec24744a1ae7134c4aa4a0372\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question asked for an explanation, not for an excuse. Please can I have an explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022083fbed6603047629f9c0332c0522305\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister addressed the question quite fully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1530b23cbe84f90afa7620ddc9384e0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why in two geometry standards, also taken by thousands of students, there were 2,000 more failures in each of these standards this year compared with last year, when international testing of similar tasks shows no change in the achievement of students in geometry, and why NCEA allows thousands more students to fail, when international testing shows the students are just as able this year as they were last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aab84108c554da7b66f5bed1493240a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, this is one of the things one cannot do\u2014the member is once again preferring his norm-referenced approach to exams over a standards-based approach and wants me to compare a standards-based system with a norm-referenced one overseas. But accepting that, and accepting that the member prefers norm referencing to a standards-based system, and a comparison cannot made, can he also accept that I have explained that in the recent history of NCEA there has been variation in the setting of the standards, but this year we have made a major step forward in that way. Can I also point out to the member that one of the real strengths of this system is its transparency. Students in this country even get their exam script back, so that if they do not think it is fair, they can go back and have it looked at again\u2014as many of them have done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022143dffeb2d1646199a5960dd64554adf\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u2014Reinstatement to Executive\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca55bfa5cd97473cbda3a3d79c50f205\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Following David Parker\u2019s admission that he had \u201Ccut a corner and that was a mistake\u201D, did she or her staff ask David Parker before he was reinstated into Cabinet whether there were any other corners that he might have cut that could compromise his ability to be an effective Minister; if so, was she satisfied with his response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdd3e95b5cab45b69ee4c03ee17804df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdd3e95b5cab45b69ee4c03ee17804df\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215de0064d38e489697cb738e64a8e1e9\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Prime Minister\u2019s response, then, to Mr Stephenson and Mr Clear swearing statements that David Parker made a false representation about the ownership of a major asset belonging to his company and arranged a series of preferential payments to creditors at a time when he knew his company to be insolvent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e3758feb0f43b1a07e84cb25623e4e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the matters referred to were dealt with in a normal liquidation process and no irregularities were found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba650004e77b439dba3cc8f28e2a7221\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Clear and Mr Stephenson are telling the truth in their statements, would it be the Prime Minister\u2019s opinion that Mr David Parker had done wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc536db78cf9480bbcb67696f3f965b0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think the Prime Minister is responsible for that. Would you like to rephrase the question? I am aware you have only a limited number of supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a5d766044a4c8894c0e759968567bc\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Clear and Mr Stephenson are telling the truth, would Mr Parker be of a standard acceptable to her Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd603ce8359647bf97f5a432d77ca846\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I simply repeat that these matters were subject to a normal liquidation process and no irregularities were found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d14215f1e4e0461996efabce0e71c9c9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen Mr Hide\u2019s interpretation of the recent investigation in respect of Mr Parker, which was that a 1999 document was a whitewash of an event that happened 6 years later, and what does she think of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d950784eac2747b381202abbb12278dc\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What I think is that Mr Hide is simply unable to accept the outcome of any investigation that he does not agree with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002296356e1fd50e46d2837b00e0eb51fc66\u0022\u003EPrison Service\u2014Corrections, Minister\u2019s Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022837327d435b74a3eb3ae07ea2d7c9fb2\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he stand by his statement: \u201CThe prison service is not in crisis; it is running really well.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022245327ef80774155aef918a4851b11f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022245327ef80774155aef918a4851b11f7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, but there is always room for improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293a80728710c4b0081048a4b1a0c59cd\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Has his department ever considered releasing remand prisoners back into the community on electronic monitoring, to alleviate overcrowding and costs; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9de4eb7ebc444ca78f3218c261fd0e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The department is currently carrying out trials of electronic monitoring of people who might safely be held in the community rather than in prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f5f2e44a8bd433c92b214e5678805dc\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the Minister\u2019s answer to the primary question, in the Minister\u2019s view, how do the Department of Corrections\u2019 current key performance indicators compare with those of the 1990s, when the National Government was in power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa0d97901a4c433a9330453484ea268b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: A very good question. As a result of significant investment in, and commitment to, the Department of Corrections by this Government we have\u2014to give a couple of examples\u2014reduced the number of break-out escapes by more than 80 percent, and reduced the number of serious assaults on staff by inmates by more than 90 percent. And we have confiscated far more contraband items in the last 3 years, because we have put in place systems that identify and apprehend those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c29320cbbe6488e89e4b1731a826313\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is not the real answer to Mr Power\u2019s first supplementary question that that idea is exactly what was proposed by the National Government\u2019s Minister Nick Smith in 1997?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5e0c7fe1be4732abf05b3e79457524\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that could possibly be the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d23bf6c5bb69426c999a1c5dd316940e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s reaction to the leaked internal Department of Corrections memo written by a prison manager that proposes releasing remand prisoners on electronic monitoring rather than putting them in jail, in order to \u201Csignificantly alleviate operational costs and the constant media attention\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d16a06d104f404dad32fcdc67f94727\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We welcome within our department any good ideas that may result in the better management of inmates in our prison system, but we will not do anything that puts the community at risk. We will continue to apprehend, prosecute, and lock up more dangerous and violent offenders\u2014and we have done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea78deed6694bb9b076c92a31b372f0\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain to the House why the leaked internal memo makes no mention of public safety, and mentions only the need to cut costs and to avoid the negative publicity associated with overcrowding in prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022499411c2f4054748b4cc78c3015bf8f3\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing is done by the Department of Corrections without considering the underlying and primary objective of protecting the community from dangerous and violent criminals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0ff532f7ea4bb68e1f996afd744227\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that approximately 50 percent of prisoners remanded in custody go on to serve a jail sentence; and if he does proceed with his department\u2019s plan to release remand prisoners into the public on electronic monitoring, how will he know which half are guilty and which half are not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220022494515ef462783e60f2c26ab600a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: By the member\u2019s own admission, 50 percent of those people held on remand do not go on to serve custodial sentences. We have a very extensive process of justice in this country whereby judges and the Parole Board make such decisions. We will leave those decisions to those independent authorities and individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022689f1995fd7f4e14ac26339b0116f5f7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that the party in Government that introduced bracelets for home detention was, in fact, the National Party; and will he release all the documentation of 1997 in which Nick Smith undertook to do just that\u2014to make sure the public know who is responsible for this issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210223e9be1944da693007c2701d1685f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The premise of the member\u2019s question is incorrect. I seek the leave of the House to table the Cabinet paper\u2014Winston was probably asleep\u2014in which we looked at home detention; it shows we never proposed it for remand inmates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f57a66045de0497b918fca681033b8a8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. Can we now proceed with the response to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc22f251dd4f4f83a0e685c6141e5a2d\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It was a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022921eba15df934870bad767af39d613b7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was a point of order; it was addressed. The question still remains on the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b75363137c6b49a88127d38333e87055\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Evaluation of home detention has proved that the rate of reoffending is very, very low. Electronic monitoring has been used internationally to ensure that authorities can keep an eye on prisoners who are on home detention. We are currently conducting trials, and no decisions have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225202a579ee574bb98300ea4848843732\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What other plans is his department working on to \u201Csignificantly alleviate operational costs and the constant media attention\u201D without any reference to public safety?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fffefa3886149aa8e344c89a4bb6775\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We are undertaking no initiatives without considering, primarily, public safety. To quote a member of the House: \u201CThere are a lot of people in prison that for my mind don\u2019t actually belong in prisons. You know, their crimes don\u2019t actually say that they should be locked up like other prisoners.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a995007077b48ba98591862972d38be\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260908161fb0648f999ecfdb581acb079\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Tau Henare said that. Perhaps Simon Power should speak to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222151ec586c146d9811fc1bc9601d3e4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a series of Cabinet papers, including the one with National\u2019s proposal in respect of private prisons. The deal was that it would have private prisons, and early release, with bracelets, on home detention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d59126711b8c48568929c53b0b1064b3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbce5cd9a46648d0a40fce0c5df6111f\u0022\u003EAir Quality\u2014Health Risks\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3d8522d15e44575b0eb290dd699c218\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: What steps has the Government taken to reduce health risks associated with poor air quality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022b95c27e593b44a179d0d892522e039bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b95c27e593b44a179d0d892522e039bb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure all members of the House and most New Zealanders would agree that maintaining a clean and healthy environment is a strategic investment in the country\u2019s future. That is why this Government has introduced 14 National Environmental Standards for Air Quality, banned activities that discharge toxins into the air, such as the burning of tyres, oil, and coated wire, reduced the sulphur in diesel from 3,000 parts per million to just 50 parts per million, and is looking at a further reduction, funded $800,000 of air quality monitoring equipment for regional councils to help them to meet those standards, established a Warm Homes project to investigate how to encourage a move to cleaner heating and warmer homes, and introduced design standards for new domestic woodburners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffa80aec1a604d5ca428c3d16aa68bd2\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What is the most recent initiative the Government has undertaken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022781c462f872b48e98cbf068735cbb7d4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has just committed a further $750,000 to assist Canterbury\u2019s Clean Heat project and Nelson\u2019s Clean Heat - Warm Homes scheme. In New Zealand fine particle air pollution contributes to an estimated 870 premature deaths a year, and the problem is clearly worse in some areas than others due to topography and climate. That sort of investment in clean and efficient home heating will doubtless help to reduce air pollution, and it is a most important investment in the health of New Zealanders in such areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022365746aa70494349bc7116d3c6031636\u0022\u003EElectricity Commission\u2014Investment Process\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237efd2a6e3a7438689003e0822e53664\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy: Does he agree with Electricity Commissioner David Close\u2019s \u201Cfundamental reservations\u201D over the way the commission approves investments in the national grid; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5a1e050f19a4d19a0ee6f491096538d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5a1e050f19a4d19a0ee6f491096538d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E The application of the grid investment test is a matter for the Electricity Commission. Differing opinions within the commission are matters that the commission itself addresses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222baedd20a27547fa92b2875db39f7319\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider it acceptable in an area so critical to New Zealand as security of supply of electricity to have the commission last month make a mistake of over 15 percent in the amount of electricity supply in respect of the min-zone, and this month to have one of its own commissioners state that he has fundamental reservations about grid investment decisions, and with these sorts of shenanigans why should we have any confidence that the commission will be able to keep the lights on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace02b309353495fbd8e7e2a7be39fe3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The current grid investment test was approved after wide consultation with the industry. Nevertheless, it is true that the draft decision of Transpower on the proposed 400 kilovolts upgrade into Auckland is the first time that that grid investment test has been applied in practice to a major proposal. I would naturally expect there to be debate about whether the test has weaknesses. If it does, those weaknesses will be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8288a3432cb4934a6d567a2803cd2af\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports on the accuracy of forecast by the leader of the National Party when he went down to examine the water storage in the lakes in the South Island and made some projections about what might happen to hydro generation in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253f1e9e82c3c4d8fa3d5bcb774bddb80\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to say that there is more water in the lakes now than there was then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879dc1a5bb674e539b0d3654aea3374c\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: Did you set him up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ccbd8d71704d638ea1528763ee857d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2cc257ea2544ce79ad1c25fd04a61ae\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: When I did that, I got kicked out. Never mind\u2014different rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ecc3047615c4b5d831383059c521ad8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. Would the member please withdraw that comment. I had called for order. The member had hesitated, he had not started asking his question, there was no interjection, but there was loud muttering around the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280183784e05940b58874a80c016528b1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I heard a specific interjection from Mr Maharey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207621b15009542b8b3c3691e760c98ae\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I did not hear it. Would the member please ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8b3145e0504e1b848cf8ebfab4ea0f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You asked him to withdraw and you should ask him also to apologise. If you do not, he will carry on behaving in that way, and he has been doing it for far too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be1f6306cd0941c59c2a374fdceec492\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I ask the member\u2014the member has a pattern of behaviour of questioning the Speaker\u2019s rulings. I did ask him to withdraw that comment. I ask him again so we can now proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022278943913db3496bb5d3fbdce05efa9f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec06d4656d87449cb23c9f8121752306\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Please ask your question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec0f8e6289c546d192f231c6c7bc39ff\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Dr Smith most certainly has withdrawn but the point he makes is valid. You have been very, very staunch in insisting that when questions are asked, they are asked in silence. By and large, we have made every effort to cooperate with that particular ruling. That was a deliberate interjection from Mr Maharey and I would have thought extremely difficult for anyone to miss. He knows that he has made that interjection. Maybe he should be required to apologise to the House for his behaviour as well. He is lucky he is staying here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caa50278582c455c92e08ae31b9c2d5b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If in fact Mr Maharey had made that interjection when the member was asking his question, he would have been out, but the member had not started asking his question, which I would ask him to do at this moment, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0dffa67f0140bda8fb27e9e6f4f9a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile the statement by the Electricity Commission that its draft decision is \u201Cvery robust\u201D when one of its own commissioners has seen fit to publicly slam the decision-making process around transmission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022771ca1e96ad146caa0684c571512dc89\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The commissioner concerned has not publicly slammed the commission\u2019s decision; he has expressed a differing opinion. As I said in my answer to the primary question, differing opinions within the commission are matters the commission itself addresses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e8c779c97e47788d725a69ebf45a54\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Is the expression of a minority opinion in line with the purpose and function of the Electricity Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f8037a7135e4ad4acfd2598da1be430\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed it is. One of the reasons for having independent commissioners is to enable a range of informed opinions to be considered in the decision-making process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed474a8697d942b98bbf9d52d67911ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that his Government is already taking unacceptable risks in respect of transmission to Auckland, noting the statement from the Electricity Commission last week that \u201Csecurity is not at preferred levels now\u201D, and the statement of Dr Keith Turner, chief executive of Meridian Energy, that lines are so overworked into Auckland they cannot be taken out of service for maintenance, and that that is unheard of in the Western World? Do not those two statements show that this Government is already taking unacceptable risks with the transmission of power into Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022449affaf4e2b4913a7a8f0ee871b7e24\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, they do not. The Government has long acknowledged that there is a need to upgrade power transmission capacity into Auckland. I would note that one of the problems we have had in New Zealand over recent years is that there was an assumption under the Bradford reforms that pricing signals would be given to Transpower in a way that would cause it to make an economically based decision, based on those pricing signals, as to when it should upgrade the grid. This Government rejected that model, and that is why we set up the Electricity Commission to do what it is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214674618296d4c469e574ec6e1538608\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister take it from Dr Smith\u2019s questions that the National Party is now supporting the 400-kilovolt upgrade of the North Island transmission line; if so, will he ask Dr Smith to convey that view to his colleagues, some of whom opposed that upgrade before the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223394c70ef6da4db2a2cead0dd8f0f348\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Based on your own rulings in recent weeks, the question by the Leader of the House is clearly out of order. I would be more than happy to answer it for him if it is the wish of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e74f4691ba5499e86441d829a44657c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot see why the question is out of order. I have asked the Minister for his interpretation of the questions he is being asked and whether he will then be asking that member to engage in certain acts to clarify the confusion and division within the National Party on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022572319b189fe4a0abdcb17e3379f0e04\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is whether the Minister has responsibility for the actions of another party, and in this instance the answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beaaff42832a48768cbdb3333af17d2e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why does his Government back the judgment of the Electricity Commission, a board with little engineering experience, over that of Transpower and Meridian Energy, which have a huge depth of engineering experience on security of transmission systems, when recent international history is littered with stories of major power failings in Queensland, north-east America, and Europe because Governments ignored the advice of transmission engineers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ada2997bf4e4ba18ba0a4bccb0de174\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As Minister Mallard commented when the draft decision was announced, the Government is keenly interested in ensuring that there is a consensus. The level of consensus, between parties that were recently some distance apart, is improving. The gap has narrowed, but we are concerned to see that the submission process, which ends on 9 June with the closing of submissions, further narrows that gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc2bdac4c81c4cb19bc1ad4ecfe2f45e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the staunchest opposition to the 400-kilovolt upgrade came from Dr Smith\u2019s bench mate Judith Collins; if so, will he be approaching Ms Collins and Dr Smith to encourage them to sort out their differences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af6d9a48a734e67bc2a0c85794e10be\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that some of the strident opposition to the 400-kilovolt upgrade came from National Party members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224534a7a7990946ae8f9ef0d03330b02f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have confidence in the confusing structure his Government has created between the Electricity Commission, Transpower, and the Commerce Commission in respect of decisions about the management of the national grid; if so, why do the select committee, unanimously, the Government\u2019s State-owned enterprise, and most players in the electricity industry say that the structure is a mess and is not adequate to keep the lights on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215e67608897547ec82e5b9626406e192\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have confidence that the improvements that this Government has made to structures concerning investment decisions and transmission capacity have improved the situation. I do note that in a discussion paper the Government has put out, we signal that at some time in the future we think it will be wise to bring some of the functions of the Commerce Commission into the Electricity Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222456625a66d84006860514deb72f91d4\u0022\u003EBuilding Licences\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405aafdcc063463f904015a7bfbe41bf\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building Issues: What reports, if any, has he received on proposals to license building practitioners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002255bb64b978ce4815a6cf40d1ecc3e31a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255bb64b978ce4815a6cf40d1ecc3e31a\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister for Building Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I have received numerous reports supporting the proposed licensing regime for the building industry, which is part and parcel of the Government\u2019s programme to restore confidence in the sector and ensure that buildings are built right the first time, while at the same time protecting the Kiwi DIY tradition. The Registered Master Builders Federation, for instance, stated that the regime \u201Cwould ensure only skilled and competent people could work in the industry.\u201D The Construction Industry Council stated: \u201Cthe days of cowboys in the building sector are clearly numbered.\u201D, and: \u201CThe new regime will hold designers and builders of houses accountable.\u201D Finally, the Certified Builders Association stated that the regime \u201Cis a significant milestone in the project to reform the building industry.\u201D It is a sound policy from a sound Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233230c4b15bf40a98ffdcdb90b24c5bd\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: How will do-it-yourself home handymen and handywomen be affected by the licensing regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac5378acc1f413382e30bbcc149620d\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: The good old Kiwi tradition of having a go with a hammer and nails has been protected. Some in the industry wanted us to restrict all DIY work, but we have struck a common-sense balance. DIYers will be able to tackle nearly all the work they do now. For instance, they will be able to build a new kitchen, a bathroom, a deck, and a garden shed, and a farmer will be able to build a hayshed. But significant work will need to be supervised by a licensed builder. That includes new buildings and extensions, or major alterations to where people live and work, and it will ensure public safety and buyer confidence when a property is on-sold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf4e4a577e34f0d815f2c1ab0bcc127\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give this House one single example of a leaky building constructed by a do-it-yourself builder that can justify changes in what Kiwis can do to their own houses; can he name one example of a leaky home problem that has arisen from a do-it-yourselfer, when the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service says there are none?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df5feb6fa32a43bf9d8225e85e6c3b02\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Let us be clear on this matter. As I have just said for the benefit of the member, do-it-yourselfers will be able to do basically what they do now, unless it is significant work. I say to the member we should be clear that the state of the construction industry today can be levelled at two things: first, the deliberate destruction of apprenticeships in the 1990s\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d461423aaee4e33878ef417a3576280\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f0dad074e1245c887e4083f3545f103\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014and, second, the total deregulation of the industry in the 1990s\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e18faa9ef0047e08061b16d2a0818c1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b892258f9da44c198c46dc146c0ee5f4\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: The member let the cowboys in; we are booting them out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e6920fee8af4d3eaf5359d00b94d99e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister please be seated. The Minister knows better than that. When I am on my feet, he is to be seated. Would the Minister please now address the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db326791f48e4d5f945adc5258ce6f0c\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to go around Auckland and Christchurch, he will find examples of leaky buildings all over the show. Yes, some were done by individuals. Under our regime, do-it-yourselfers will be able to do basically what they do now, apart from significant work. Hence, we will not get a leaky building problem. I say again that the legacy of the previous National Government was the deregulation of the whole building industry in the 1990s. Anything went\u2014shonky, lazy cowboys were allowed into the industry. That was a symptom of the National Party caucus\u2014it is gone, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f8858fb9ae3446583d2fdf1195a71a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table two documents. The first of those is a speech made by the Hon George Hawkins, who said that Labour was responsible for the deregulation of the building industry in the late 1980s and that National had no right to claim credit for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac4df80030d417f853f4edfd712afc7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: The second document is a formal answer from the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service, which states that in not a single case out of over 3,000 leaky home cases were the leaks the responsibility of a do-it-yourselfer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa8ad1c401f04e7987af72e9e8735657\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any point in people going to the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service to complain about a leaky home that they built themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c379bfcf7384a548f30b8fb892377f5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the Minister that answers are meant to be succinct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211a7e05f5981469b8a8d01cdf6e84975\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his question. I think the answer is self-evident: no. Dr Smith may disagree. He happens to be an engineer, but he has no credibility in the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f2ea99b2620469fa6cbb34bf2d8016f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please withdraw and apologise for that last comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fa6af4bd85a483ea035e811e0da7c55\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0708745c1d24e079e45f73477610cd0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. There is a tradition in this House that if a member seeks leave to table a document, he or she usually has the courtesy to wait until the end of the supplementary questions to a question. That is the first point. The second point is that Dr Smith has made a claim in respect of Mr Hawkins\u2019 speech regarding who was responsible for the deregulation of the industry. I notice that he has asked for leave to table the document, and he has not tabled it. Can we please see it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c02ca380e1d24f2c83fdc6559e691095\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It used to be that members sought leave to table documents at the end of the questioning, and it certainly would be of assistance to the Speaker if that happened. I notice that in many cases it does not happen now, but that is members\u2019 privilege. Also, members have until 10 o\u2019clock this evening to be able to table documents, and I am sure they will do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a17a3511d97e4a2cb01e35596d6ba795\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government setting up a whole new Government bureaucracy to license builders rather than following the model for lawyers, doctors, engineers, nurses, and accountants, whereby the Government approves the professional associations to undertake that role; why does the Minister not trust either the Registered Master Builders Federation or the Certified Builders Association to license builders directly, rather than creating a dual structure with a Government bureaucracy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022949643a82f4c4ba9979a68866573d26f\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: The reason we have set this regime up is the botch-up and the legacy that was left to us, thanks to the Government that member belonged to. I am happy to table the support from the Registered Master Builders Federation, the Certified Builders Association, the Construction Industry Council, and the other trade associations. If the member is right, then everybody else who supported this regime is wrong. I will measure the credibility of people like Mr Pieter Burghout, chief executive officer of the Registered Master Builders Federation, against that member\u2019s lack of credibility when he was Minister in the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022444e5565bc89414694faaed362747470\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This Minister has again, in respect of that answer, chosen to go outside your previous ruling by questioning my own credibility. But, more important, he did not answer my question. My question was quite straightforward, and it asked why the Government has chosen to set up a new bureaucracy to do the registration, rather than, as the Government has done in other areas of professional regulation, trusting either the master builders or the certified builders to do it. He has made no attempt at all to answer that quite specific and important question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b99eb178a24460804226aa4ae59e88\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister like to succinctly address that question further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d77e81e7a3244841b34dfa4f6639e7ef\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: This Government works in partnership with industry associations like the Registered Master Builders Federation and the Certified Builders Association, which have supported the regime. They agree with us; we agree with them. We are doing what an industry wants and are protecting good, honest Kiwis when they buy a home, so that they get a licensed builder to build a building right the first time. We are doing that because it is supported by the industry and it is the right thing to do in order to protect consumers. That member over there in the Opposition did nothing to protect consumers. He hung them out to dry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b7afa77561c43dfae40a9cf0afc772c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table documents from the Registered Master Builders Federation, showing it would much prefer a self-regulation model rather than that imposed on it by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocuments not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3f0aef8d57e40f684723797d208c676\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table media statements from the Registered Master Builders Federation of 23 April, the Construction Industry Council of 23 April, and the Certified Builders Association of the same date, where they support the Government announcement wholeheartedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d1c39ab70894710b81cd2dbe990202e\u0022\u003EPlunketLine\u2014Quality of Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4862ea233354ba8afc2a4265ba45d7e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CWhat I\u2019m satisfied by is that PlunketLine, in terms of calls picked up, was not providing a good service\u201D; if so, what did she mean by \u201Cnot providing a good service\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022db85ecc8b31b4fc6a1a831f6f6b4282a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db85ecc8b31b4fc6a1a831f6f6b4282a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because the rate of calls not picked up was high, at 87.3 percent in the year to December 2005. Plunket\u2019s Well Child health advice itself is excellent and the Government is now discussing with Plunket and McKessons where to take the issue from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec58e71e005143c1811fa7eb08baebdd\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister bothered to find out why the answer rate was so low, and if she has, did she find out that PlunketLine was contracted to answer only 58,000 to 70,000 calls a year and in fact answered 76,000 calls this year, and the reason why people did not know that information\u2014that PlunketLine could not answer more calls\u2014was, as the president of Plunket has confirmed today, that her Government expressly prohibited them from answering any more calls?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a3f417829974f20baaafbc21fbf8f6d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: On the contrary, I have received advice that Plunket was offered funding for more calls and did not take up the offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232fc1ace80644835b8974187294e4861\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Why would the Government allow a trusted and widely respected organisation like Plunket, with a century of experience in helping New Zealand parents, and that sees 91 percent of New Zealand babies, to be passed over for a subsidiary of a multinational corporation that has recently been involved in settling claims that it defrauded the US Defense Department?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c7942cc36048bd97935c415d5ff77d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have worked with Plunket for many years and know it provides a good Well Child health service, and the Government is now working with Plunket to take the matter forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e145423a3740ef96b21e869fc5a256\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is she the same Helen Clark who led a nationwide petition to fully fund a 24-hour, 7-day-a-week PlunketLine service, and why has she now frozen Plunket out from delivering this vital extension of its services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f53f53ba8664992af4d6adbb80bc5ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, just as Dr Brash is the leader of the same party that refused to give the service a penny in the 1990s, and further, I can say the Government will be funding a 24-hour Well Child health service. That is what the whole issue is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9074352205482c9e888ec4b1e6b22b\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is she the same Helen Clark who stated: \u201CWe see real value in PlunketLine, and we want it to receive Government funding.\u201D; if so, what did she mean by that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a64b3cff574607947b526c1d12017e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly the reason a Labour Government funds 24-hour Well Child health services\u2014something the National Party never did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022965fb67fb5ad44c7a2f4e8540cde8262\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is she the same Helen Clark who stated: \u201CI want to make a special plea for Government funding for PlunketLine. It was Labour\u2019s policy to fund it because we have been very impressed by the service. With more funding to operate more lines, with more nurses, it could have been even better.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce32a66a854c459181529be71241b8a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, just as that member is from the same party that complained in this House 2 years ago that PlunketLine was answering only one in nine calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223c10d9f0e5c4e7c8e394964e2029ce8\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister be prepared to support my notice of motion on tomorrow\u2019s Order Paper that: \u201CThis House calls for the Government to ensure funding to enable PlunketLine to continue its service to young New Zealand families?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285663c16a1c84586bcc20e1956f39999\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not propose to take up Government time with that. If the member from a party that does enjoy a constructive relationship with the Government would like to come and discuss the issue, I would be very happy for her to have a briefing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022275f17cc06d54ea0ab6c435102e5983e\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that she is the same Helen Clark who championed the postcard campaign \u201CDon\u2019t Let the Hotline Go Cold\u201D, and the same Helen Clark who has completely frozen the iconic Plunket service out of delivering a vital service to New Zealand families? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddd86f4942cc4205919979e97697ca0a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is very difficult to hear. As I said, barracking is not permitted; interjections are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ae0759f395a4a6aa565beb33c5b87e1\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I imagine the member is talking to the same Plunket organisation that agreed to go into an open tender process. I understand that the member is from the same political party that attacked the Government for not tendering $1.5 million worth of contracts, when this was a $2 million one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022071d5e7b141045e8b276d0d89c12dbfa\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a newspaper article in which the president of Plunket confirms that the Clark ministry expressly prohibited Plunket from answering more calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce6fcfef79646039d8ad51cd44ba5ae\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that article. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271ba4c40aa62489782e35bf0d60e3e3b\u0022\u003EBiodiversity Strategy\u2014National Goals\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222800c078c43d459a894f47372ef7b36e\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Does he stand by the national goals of the New Zealand Biodiversity Strategy to \u201Cturn the tide on the decline of our biodiversity, and to maintain and restore a full range of our remaining natural habitats and ecosystems and viable populations of all native species.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002222f61c0348b74641a32665bbdb50ced3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222f61c0348b74641a32665bbdb50ced3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, that remains the vision and goal to be pursued within the available resources over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad29d992eaa246a0920fa7199546bdce\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: How, then, does the Minister reconcile these goals with his decision to permit Solid Energy to transfer 250 Powelliphanta augustus snails and then mine their natural habitat on Mount Augustus, given that this species may well become extinct directly as a result of his decision? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adc1c9b968bc458da78658e8cc68aa7f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There were interjections during that question. Would the member please just leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EShane Ardern withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae676104e0f4c959b3536d9c998d5e6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In making our decision, the Associate Minister of Energy and I had to consider the welfare of Powelliphanta augustus under the Wildlife Act, and the economic benefits that flow from the efficient development and use of New Zealand\u2019s coal resources under the Coal Mines Act. On balance we have decided to allow the snails to be moved. However, we are requiring a larger mitigation package than was originally offered by Solid Energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cdc67261d134f90aa0ec133258d17c6\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Why are animals such as deer and thar still considered exotic pests when people of, say, Irish or Chinese descent who have been in New Zealand for the same length of time are now considered indigenous by Trevor Mallard, and in what circumstances will he accept deer and thar as an integral part of New Zealand\u2019s biodiversity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5173419b0bf4ce9a20d26fb2e5a5f25\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have never really considered animals to be the same as people, but I am happy to discuss the matter with the member further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227deb328a4bf9400ab006f50c9216c784\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te \u0101wangawanga ia, m\u014D te p\u0101p\u0101tanga o te hangarau patu i ng\u0101 k\u0101kano, kua waia ki te whenua m\u014D te maha o ng\u0101 tau, ar\u0101, ng\u0101 purapura o te iwi tangata whenua me \u014D r\u0101tou p\u0101rekereke, \u0101, he aha ng\u0101 k\u014Drero kua puta mai i \u014Dna hui i te taha o te M\u0101ori m\u014D taua \u0101huatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Is he concerned about the impact that terminator technology will have on the ability of indigenous people to renew crops based on centuries of seeds that have naturally adapted to their environment; and what have his consultations with M\u0101ori told him about that phenomenon?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f97654271a349acbbc55de708a17b1b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Government does not support the technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0030c0780874424b13f5c5419eabb48\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Will Solid Energy be prevented from mining the endangered snails\u2019 last remaining natural habitat until the relocation described by the Minister has been proven to be successful; if not, is this an example of his understanding of the precautionary principle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228939188d7a7d4bc38c8dde2291c6d0f4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In exploring the option of how long we would have to monitor the site to determine success we were told it would be up to 20 years. That is why we have taken very extensive steps in mitigation, such as the relocation by hand of as many snails as possible, the establishment of an expanded new habitat, the protection of the area with an expensive, intensive predator-proof fence, and also a captive breeding programme. These are very extensive mitigation actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022061911c3bf65424c876a24e9f8580d60\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: If the mining occurs, the relocation is unsuccessful, and all the snails die, will he have any qualms that as Minister of Conservation he and his colleague the Minister of Energy will have approved New Zealand\u2019s first State-sanctioned extinction of an endangered native species?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8afbb7300ff44c199a5d7e921ffc29b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I take my responsibilities to protect New Zealand\u2019s unique biodiversity very seriously. The issues involved in the application to move Powelliphanta augustus were finely balanced. In reaching the decision, I had to operate\u2014as did my colleague the Associate Minister of Energy\u2014under two statutes, that is, the Wildlife Act and the Coal Mines Act. The only possible decision I could make under those was the decision we made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a803676490de4e83bb301ced692cdfd9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the document: A Vision, Goals, and Principles for Managing New Zealand\u2019s Biodiversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1a5649c7eb24c818a9d6d91bbd2f818\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f39b58c04a73485896c44cb4f57c5b73\u0022\u003EHousing New Zealand Financial Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e80ffbdd6f2a4a2b9a2823a4842f9162\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e80ffbdd6f2a4a2b9a2823a4842f9162\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table a letter. I do this as chair of the Social Services Committee on behalf of that committee. It is a letter from Helen Fulcher, Chief Executive of the Housing New Zealand Corporation, that provides a correction to an answer given during the financial review of Housing New Zealand. The letter corrects the information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ea74928ee7c432693a9a2c979c92e73\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022024f4cafd2604687a796be85cd748abd\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022199f02b8f3fa4898b302f7ce0a5b32fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022199f02b8f3fa4898b302f7ce0a5b32fd\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. The National Party looks forward to this general debate, because this week the Government has come back from the \u201Crecess from hell\u201D. It has been the \u201Crecess from hell\u201D for the Labour Government, because it has completely lost touch with the country, and it has been completely exposed for its mismanagement across a huge number of portfolio areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ENot the least of those is Vote Health. Pete Hodgson\u2019s speech was billed as the Minister\u2019s grand vision for health. It was billed as Pete Hodgson\u2019s putting his stamp on the Labour Party\u2019s health policy. But what was it all about? Nine out of the 10 pages of speech notes were all about the National Party and the agenda it has been setting in the debate about the public health services in this country. It was all about National setting the agenda in health, just as we have spent the last adjournment setting the agenda regarding the Government\u2019s hopeless performance in the law and order portfolio. We found out today that the Government has been running a secret criminal release scheme, which puts remand prisoners out into the community without telling anybody about that change in Government policy. This Government is also losing control of the housing portfolio, where the chief executive of Housing New Zealand was paying public servants in order to gag them from talking to members of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIf we look across the benches, we see a Minister of Health who is very much under pressure, completely out of his depth, and unable to see the wood for the trees\u2014and he is straining, as the New Zealand Herald stated. What is he straining under? He is straining under the fact that after 6 years of a Labour Government and billions of extra dollars in health, New Zealanders are asking where the extra operations are. This Minister stood up at Victoria University and tried to say that this Government had done 107,000 elective operations and only 8,000 people had been turned away. Well, what about the fact that he is no \u201CGood Shepherd\u201D? A \u201CGood Shepherd\u201D would be more worried about those who were missing out than those who were getting surgery\u2014107,000 elective operations in the last year. That number has dropped from the year before. In fact, it is lower than it was 5 years previously. Fewer New Zealanders are getting elective surgery, and those who are, are a lot sicker than they were 5 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIt is not just the New Zealand National Party Opposition that says that. The Auckland District Health Board says that patients have to be sicker today in order to get an operation than they had to be 5 years ago. The Capital and Coast District Health Board has admitted that people have to be sicker than they had to be 5 years ago in order to get an operation. The Canterbury District Health Board has admitted that people have to be sicker than they had to be 5 years ago in order to get an operation, and this Minister cannot stand up in the House and justify that. All we see are those sorts of Goff-like vein-popping reactions, as the Minister tries to shout, bluff, and blunder his way through answers to questions\u2014and he has no answer at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271e33cec8e5c44caaef6dfc5e26d8707\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m next! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022665bc2d6bb494d57a9aa550ed28ab4c7\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am glad Mr Peters interjects, because I know he is concerned about the hundreds of people being dumped off waiting lists in Tauranga. And I know that Mr Peters is concerned about the number of people who die while on the waiting list, in Tauranga. I know he is concerned about the fact that potentially thousands of people in the Bay of Plenty region will be dumped off the waiting list\u2014and we will hear that from the Minister tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s speech on health was completely bereft of any vision, new ideas, or fresh approach to dealing with the problems he has inherited from the much-overrated Annette King. All the things that she could hide with bluff and blunder, and by pretending not to deal with the issues, are now coming home to roost, and Minister Hodgson is completely incapable of dealing with the vital issues facing the health service. What about the workforce in health? There is a massive shortage of doctors and nurses, but there are plenty of bureaucrats. What about dealing with the issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e526d27028452e8a3476ec0b34c9fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e526d27028452e8a3476ec0b34c9fe\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E If that was a \u201Crecess from hell\u201D, it was a \u201Crecess from hell\u201D for the National Party\u2014which entirely disappeared out of the sight of this country for 3 weeks. It was an adjournment where that party so failed to find an issue that it could not even put an adjournment letter before the House yesterday, to demonstrate some area where the Government had not been performing. This Opposition is lacklustre, underperforming, leaderless, directionless, confused, and frustrated, and does not even deserve the title \u201COpposition\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EA consultant\u2019s letter came out yesterday from a political consultancy firm. It is headed: \u201CLabour still firmly in control\u201D, and it has some good advice for the National Party. It states that National\u2019s leadership crisis is a more urgent issue than some in its caucus would believe. We saw the pretenders for the leadership. There was blustering Bill English, trying to claim that a kid charged with murder would be placed back in his school, when he knew that a condition of bail was that the child was not allowed back into his school. Sean Plunket made a clown of that member yesterday\u2014the tried and failed leader of the National Party trying again, because there is a vacuum there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E Then we had Gerry Brownlee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226040652987e64f1aa032d48db34dac0f\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e32470b7fd64c32b47b8dc232ea672c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Gerry Brownlee, the man who on the weekend said that National was going to reverse its policy on the M\u0101ori seats. Why was it going to do that? Well, National believed in abolishing the M\u0101ori seats but would rely on the M\u0101ori Party for votes next time, so Gerry Brownlee told the country on Saturday that National had changed the policy. But Don Brash then came back and said no. Poor old Gerry had to turn up at the caucus yesterday and apologise for causing confusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThen we have John Key, the other intending assassin. John Key is now saying that maybe National will not have the tax cuts, which were the flagship of the National Party at the last election. Poor old John\u2014he is a nice guy, but try to get a straight answer out of him! The Agenda programme on Saturday morning asked John whether he believed in God. Well, there were four answers: yes, no, maybe, or \u201CMind your own business.\u201D But we heard 3 minutes of prevarication and no answer. If John Key wants to be the leader of the National Party, then he has to learn to give a straight answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe are 6 months now into a new parliamentary term, and this Government has consolidated both its position and its reputation for competency, leadership, and having the vision and the policy agenda to take this country forward\u2014a country that is proud and increasingly confident about its national identity, a country that is on the path to transforming its economy to play a leading role in the 21st century, and a country that is committed to looking after its families, old and young, giving them security, and giving them the opportunity to make the most of their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to say something in favour of the National Party. I want to defend it, because I have heard it put around that the National Party is a party that does not believe in anything. I think that is wrong. National members do believe in anything, and that is their problem. They will say yes to any lobby group that comes along. They have no credibility at all. They have no firm principles. The firm principle that \u201CWe will not have M\u0101ori seats unless we need M\u0101ori seats to get us into power.\u201D\u2014that is the strength of principle of the National Party! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESix years and 6 months into Opposition, that party has learnt nothing. That party is no closer to being the Government today than when Bill English stabbed Jenny Shipley in the back for the leadership, or when Don Brash then stabbed Bill English in the back for leadership. Now there are three assassins trying to stab Don Brash in the back, but what Don Brash has got going for him is that not one of those intending assassins is worth anything as a leader. That is why he dribbles along as the leader of the National Party\u2014because there is no option. There is no alternative. In all of the years I have been in this Parliament I have never seen such a hopelessly incompetent Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00221f4c542e715f4eb39c88218b46d14878\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f4c542e715f4eb39c88218b46d14878\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I think all in this Parliament would agree\u2014certainly, the public would agree\u2014that Housing New Zealand Corporation is in an absolute shambles. I have to say that today the Minister looked very, very grim when answering questions about the corporation. Yesterday he looked very, very grim when defending his chairman of the board, and today he looked very, very grim when defending him again. I recall quite keenly yesterday the Minister saying that the chairman had acted appropriately and promptly in dealing with the allegations levelled against the corporation about the misappropriation of funds, and with the allegations that the corporation had put a gagging order on a New Zealand citizen, who was not allowed to talk to his or her member of Parliament. Housing New Zealand Corporation said that a New Zealand citizen could not approach and talk to his or her member of Parliament! Could our democracy be undermined by anything worse than a State entity, run by this Labour Government, putting gagging orders on fellow Kiwis so that they could not talk to their elected representative? That is a most appalling situation, indeed\u2014and we have seen the paperwork. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWhen did the chairman know about the gagging order? That is the big question in the House this week. Today in the House Chris Carter would have us believe that the chairman found out at exactly the same time that he did\u2014that is, when it all blew up in the media, in the Herald on Sunday story. But in trawling through the documents\u2014and we have done that\u2014and the media reports, we have discovered that the chairman of the corporation\u2019s board said that he found out about the gagging order several weeks before the Minister did, when he was listening to talkback radio on Newstalk ZB. Now, did he go and tell the Minister? No, he did not. Did he stick to the no-surprises policy that the Prime Minister demands? No, he did not. Did he keep the Minister abreast of the situation? Clearly, he did not. So on the one hand here we have the Minister, Chris Carter, defending in the House the chairman of the corporation\u2019s board and saying that he heard about it at the same time as he did. On the other hand the Prime Minister is saying that it was inappropriate for the chairman to break the no-surprises policy. Who is right: the Minister, who says that the chairman found out about the gagging order at the same time as he did, or the Prime Minister, who said that the chairman broke the no-surprises policy? Well, that question is up in the air, and this House needs to find the answer very shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAnother question we will be putting to the House is simply to ask why the chairman of the board of Housing New Zealand Corporation did not have an external inquiry into the misappropriation of funds when he found out last September. Why did it take media pressure before he called for an inquiry? Why, when he called for an inquiry, did he call in the internal auditors\u2014Housing New Zealand Corporation\u2019s usual internal auditors\u2014but, when he talked to the Minister, discover the sense in actually having an external, independent inquiry by the Auditor-General? Clearly, this chairman is not overseeing the function of the corporation appropriately. We have seen that he is prepared to stand down a senior manager of Housing New Zealand Corporation, based on the gagging order letter, but that he will not oversee the standing down of the chief executive officer, who is also implicated in that gagging letter. This Minister needs to be taken to account for his management of his politically appointed chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002259c162ba8a504e918be93f23b9c5308c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259c162ba8a504e918be93f23b9c5308c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There are still some members of the House and the listening public who are awake, and therefore I move an extension of time for Mr Heatley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8555c7718cd441880c9bc340a359974\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. I say to the member that he has been here long enough to know that sort of thing can lead to disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd51f93640a34b31bf308210ca9c53de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd51f93640a34b31bf308210ca9c53de\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. During that fine speech from Mr Heatley, one of the members of New Zealand First was speaking to the gallery. I understand that is not allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a4dc863a7a4f6c82ed3382e82d1fdf\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Bennett for that. It is during the course of their speeches that members are not to address the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022878980c60fc84ac882308a2404a8fbff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022878980c60fc84ac882308a2404a8fbff\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. An allegation has just been made about a member of New Zealand First. There are three members of New Zealand First here, and I would like to know which member the allegation refers to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da6da40ed3564580a47f91ac4215f6ed\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I just say that the member\u2019s point of order did not stand. It would have stood only if someone who had the call addressed someone outside or in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002263cb3bab38e24d73ae9b17c8c9fb4f1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263cb3bab38e24d73ae9b17c8c9fb4f1d\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister for Building Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that was a rich speech coming from a National Party member. Mr Heatley should read the historical annals out there in the corridor. It is a bit rich for him and his kind to come in here and lecture us about Housing New Zealand Corporation, when the National Government deliberately attempted to destroy Housing New Zealand and destroy State housing in this country. No one can argue with that point, because that National Government sold over 12,000 houses. That is why we have long waiting lists; people want to get into the houses that National sold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ENot only did that member stand up and pontificate about housing but he also forgot to mention the building sector and the destroyed apprenticeships that we brought back. As I mentioned at question time, there are few rules in the industry. There is a big dose of amnesia over on that side of the House. Mr Heatley is the biggest example of a headless chook in the National Party that members will ever see\u2014running around with no direction and no brains. He is an exact example of why the National members are on the Opposition benches. They are a rudderless crew\u2014completely rudderless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI went to the Canterbury Manufacturers Association president\u2019s function last week, and the great speaker, the great man, the great hope for some\u2014they are few; a minority\u2014was one John Key, who was pretending to be the leader. He got up, and he did not give a bad speech\u2014there was lots of stuff about Singapore and Lee Kuan Yew. He had read a book, From Third World to First: The Singapore Story: 1965-2000, and expounded knowledge about that. Then it came to a thing called question time. It is always a cracker, question time. I quite enjoy it on both sides. John Key was asked what his policy was on this, that, and the other. I know that the two National Party members there who were there at the time were cringing away at the speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThen a very eminent Cantabrian and Kiwi businessman, Angus Tait from Tait Electronics\u2014he is a superb human being\u2014asked the clanger question: \u201CWhat are you going to do?\u201D. What was the reply from John Key? A bit of dodging and a bit of weaving. He was not quite sure; he could not really say at that moment. Angus is a good guy. He is a bit like a dog with a bone; he does not give up easily. He then called him again and asked: \u201CWhat are you going to do?\u201D. John Key replied: \u201COh, I can\u2019t really say. The election is a while away. I haven\u2019t really done much policy work.\u201D\u2014that type of thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will tell members the feedback from the members of the Canterbury Manufacturers Association that I have talked to, because I have friends and former colleagues in that organisation. They said the speech was long on rhetoric and short on detail. It was a nothing speech. Did he elucidate all the work he may have done on research and development policy or depreciation policy? Did he tell them he was going to backtrack, as National did on the weekend, on tax? No, he did not say that\u2014heck, no. There was no policy. The National Party is a rudderless pack of headless chooks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI was really gratified after that speech, because I am also told that the National Party MPs turned up at the Canterbury Manufacturers Association and met with its members\u2014as the Labour Canterbury MPs did. I am told David Carter was there. The National MPs gave a briefing; they sat there and pontificated. The people they met with are manufacturers\u2014guys who make things, and smart business people. So what, in an hour and a half of the breakfast meeting, did the National Party MPs talk about to manufacturers? All David Carter could talk about was dog microchipping. There was no policy on manufacturing\u2014and he was a business person, I am told. I tell members that was the feedback from that meeting, and those manufacturers are eminent Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI turn briefly to the ACT party, because I cannot resist. There is the ACT party, down from eight members to two. Heather Roy is off to the Territorial Army\u2014she has a lot of time on her hands\u2014and I commend her for that. Good on her! That is honourable\u2014she is off to join the Territorials. Then we have Mr Hide\u2014\u201CTwinkletoes\u201D. I predict Mr Hide will win Dancing with the Stars. Do members know why? Because his two specialist dances will be, first, the hustle\u2014and we know he is the best at it\u2014and, second, the limbo dance because, of course, no one goes lower than Mr Hide. I am also told that his hearing is going. When a producer at Television New Zealand asked him whether he would go on the show because he could dance like Anna Pavlova\u2014the Russian ballet dancer\u2014Mr Hide misheard. He thought the producer had asked him whether he would like a pavlova. He asked for two, and he said yes. Then he told members he was on a crash diet. I am told he is down to four meals a day. So I say what a wonderful contribution Mr Hide and Ms Roy are making. I think Ms Roy is doing a good thing. She will make a better contribution, I hope, to our armed forces\u2014and good on her; we want to encourage that\u2014than she has in here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut I say to the Opposition over there and their mates from ACT that they are a bunch of headless chooks. They have no policy. Members cannot turn up at a Canterbury Manufacturers Association breakfast, for example, and talk about everything apart from manufacturing. Members cannot turn up and give a keynote speech to eminent business people and when asked: \u201CWhat would you do if you were Minister of Finance?\u201D say: \u201CWell, I haven\u2019t quite worked that out yet.\u201D Members cannot do that, because that is a huge credibility gap. Our policies are out there. Our economic transformations policies are out there for everyone to see. We are proud of them. National is hollowed out; it has no policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00220cceb5d1a1c64c5399930359706ccff0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cceb5d1a1c64c5399930359706ccff0\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I have a bit of advice for Clayton Cosgrove: the Cabinet reshuffle is over. He can relax now. He does not have to come down to the House and try to outperform his colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe colleague sitting next to Clayton Cosgrove is Mr Paul Swain, and this House has never seen him look as relaxed as he has in recent months. Initially, members of this House thought it was good on the Hon Paul Swain for making a lifestyle decision to spend time with his young child. That was a very wise decision, in my view. But, actually, in recent weeks we have discovered why Paul Swain is looking so relaxed. It is because he has nothing to do with the Department of Corrections any more. He is a mile away from it, and he is loving it. Paul Swain is nodding away furiously there. He loves the fact that those problems have now been landed on the lap of his good friend Damien O\u2019Connor. Every time a question about the Department of Corrections is raised in this House or a press release goes out, the word around the building is that Mr Swain leans back in his chair, puts his hands behind his head, and says he thanks goodness he has nothing to do with that department any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe discovered over the adjournment that more and more problems are coming out of the Department of Corrections. My personal favourite was the fact that in these times of fiscal prudence, the taxpayer will spend $11 million on landscaping four prisons. It does not matter which way the public looks at it; that is a lot of ferns and a lot of pavers. The Government is trying to spin the line that certain environmental standards set by certain local councils have to be met in order for prisons to be built in their areas. That is not the case in terms of two out of four of those prisons. In Spring Hill\u2019s case, we will spend $4.34 million on landscaping that prison. Members may call me old-fashioned, but I always thought that prisons were supposed to be a bit unpleasant, and that the outlook for prisoners was not supposed to be particularly scenic. But this Government has no compunction at all in dealing out hard-earned taxpayers\u2019 money in a way that leads us to believe the only thing that will happen to Paul Swain over the next 6 months is that he is likely to become more and more relaxed and more and more happy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI can tell this House, and I can tell Damien O\u2019Connor, his staff, and his department, that the Department of Corrections is leaking like a sieve. If that Minister thinks that the leaked internal memo presented to the House today is the last of it, let me reassure him that it is the first of it. The Department of Corrections is leaking like a sieve, and there is much more to come. So during the time that we have a $490 million budget blowout on the new prisons, what does the Department of Corrections decide to do for the individual charged with overseeing the construction programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214d6257e98d9449eb804101372e82743\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Pay him more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d3f9ade6154f8bbd6996cd492c4ca3\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Pay him more. So $1,000 a day plus GST when the original contracts\u2014I was going to say were tendered, but that is not quite right, I say to Mr Mark. They were never tendered originally, nor were they tendered at the second bite. I say to Mr Swain that it was only the third bite that saw those contracts tendered. In the meantime, we have seen the people in charge of producing those prisons have a 30 percent pay increase, taking their pay to $1,800 a day plus GST. That is $2 million over the time the prison-building project has taken so far, to the point where nearly half a billion dollars has blown out in that budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThat money could have been spent on quality rehabilitation programmes. That money could have been spent on quality employment programmes for inmates. But, no, that money is being paid out to an entity and an ex-Department of Corrections individual who are completely wrecking the building project process by having those budget blowouts. Then what does the Government do? It pays the individual concerned more for the privilege of doing that, which is just extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOn top of that, in recent weeks we have seen such a range of appalling revelations in the corrections area that I predict Paul Swain will grow hair over the next 6 months, because he will be so relaxed. He will grow hair, and it will go from a distinguished grey to a young, fawn brown colour, as all the pressure lifts off his shoulders. I predict that all the hair dye in the world will not save Damien O\u2019Connor from going grey over the next 6 months, because we have only just begun on our revelations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u002214406fa8571e401f98940258fac5d41e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214406fa8571e401f98940258fac5d41e\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E During the adjournment I went to Happy Valley, a beautiful area of native bush, very fragile wetlands, and a thriving ecosystem of native birds and animals. Happy Valley is on the West Coast of the South Island, just north-east of Westport. It takes a few hours to climb up there\u2014for me, especially\u2014but I strongly recommend it. It is well worth the effort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b34b3ed12f0496da5c90adc980f2ad8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: I thought she was talking about Malaita.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ecb74b47bd34ff0be2fd603ca405f82\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI\u003C/span\u003E: Not quite Malaita\u2014it is much prettier than Malaita.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EHappy Valley is home to many threatened species, including the great spotted kiwi and the native patrickensis land snail, k\u0101k\u0101, k\u0101r\u0101riki, and western weka. New Zealand falcon, kea, kerer\u016B, and the long-tailed cuckoo have also been seen in that area. The valley is now also the home of a long-term occupation of committed environmentalists who, since January of this year, have been highlighting the devastation intended by Solid Energy\u2019s plans for an open-cast mine. The mine will consist of two open-cast pits covering half of the 265 hectare site. The open pits will be up to nearly 100 metres deep. Solid Energy will extract 500,000 tonnes of coal from the mine every year for 10 years, mostly for export. This will require the removal of 29 million cubic metres of the rock and soil that cover the coal, approximately half of which will be acid-forming. The Government has estimated that between the Stockton and Happy Valley mines, up to 6.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide will be released into the atmosphere per annum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe chief executive of Solid Energy, Don Elder, has been reported as stating that there will be no net increase in jobs for the West Coast from the Happy Valley mine, but despite this the classic tension between those who support the mine, ostensibly for jobs, and those who want to protect New Zealand\u2019s indigenous species from extinction is raging again. Conservationists, like Coaster Peter Lusk, are being subjected to criminal harassment, threats, property damage, and abuse because of their conservation ethic. There is no justification for that criminal behaviour; we are supposed to live in a free country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWhen I went to the valley I spoke to a few of the locals. One guy I met told me that his family was brought to the Coast a hundred years ago for the mining, but although coalmining attracted his old people to the Coast, it will not be coalmining that keeps him and his family there. In fact, he does not work at the mine; he is in the tourism industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe fact is that Westland can no longer rely on extractive resources as the basis of its economy. It simply must move towards sustainability if it is to have any hope of surviving in the future. There are alternatives to extractive resources. For example, significant dairying\u2014which has good features and bad features\u2014is going on there. It could be better developed for the area, with a stronger emphasis on local processing into high-value cheeses, for example\u2014and at least the area has good rainfall, as opposed to the drought-ridden dairy farms of Canterbury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EEcotourism is a growing development on the Coast. There is plantation forestry, which could be very significant if highly skilled wood-processing facilities are established. If that industry was to be combined with the development of the port, so that the Coast does not have to keep transporting everything to Christchurch by train, the Coast would then have the beginnings of the infrastructure it needs to grow a local, independent, and sustainable economy that is not reliant on the destruction of the very natural resources on which it depends. Those examples are at least some attempts to move away from extractive resources, which not only lead to the extinction of native species but also to acid mine drainage, for example, that poisons the rivers on which those other industries and the community depend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt is also crucial that the value of development remains on the Coast. Solid Energy\u2019s profits do not go back to the Coast. They are sent elsewhere and benefit other areas. Regional business support schemes, strong ecotourism, and \u201Cbuy local\u201D strategies would all keep Coast money in Coast hands. Supporting coalmining on the grounds that it provides jobs for Coasters is dishonest and irresponsible. It binds the Coast to an unsustainable, dead-end economic cycle that will only eat away at those very communities, either because they push away committed Coasters like Peter Lusk, or because the economic opportunities become so narrow and mean that it is no longer viable to live and raise a family there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe only way to avoid conflict between the conservationists and Coasters over issues like the snails in Happy Valley is to protect the economic future of the Coast through truly sustainable opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0f0b5dc08d24e1a8477a237a63a9798\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0f0b5dc08d24e1a8477a237a63a9798\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CTo be, or not to be,\u201D\u2014that indeed is the question. It is a famous line from that well-known English writer William Shakespeare\u2014from Act III, Scene I of the famous play Hamlet. In the last few weeks this country has witnessed a modern version of that play, starring and directed by Gerry Brownlee and Don Brash. To be or not to be? That is the question the public is asking. There is mass confusion out there amongst the people who saw Don Brash at \u014Crewa. He made that wonderful speech about how he would abolish the M\u0101ori seats and everything M\u0101ori. The speech in \u014Crewa catapulted his popularity in the polls\u2014and led to mass confusion over who really was the leader of the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EThe co-leader of the M\u0101ori Party Tariana Turia said yesterday: \u201COf course, he did not behave like that after the election. He did not care that our seats were won through the M\u0101ori seats.\u201D She went on to say: \u201CI cannot quite read the National Party leader.\u201D I say to Tariana Turia that I support her 100 percent. So, probably, do 99 percent of the people of this country and the public who are listening to this debate. What is sadder, I believe, is that 90 percent of those who supported Don Brash in his \u014Crewa speech are also confused right now as to who the leader of the National Party is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI will outline for members the script of a new play. This, then, is Act I of \u201CTo Be or Not to Be\u201D, a play about National and the M\u0101ori seats. National members want one thing; Don Brash wants another. People can imagine the stage. The curtain rises; enter, Don Brash. His first line is: \u201CI think having any M\u0101ori representation at any level of Government is a fundamental mistake, dangerous for New Zealand\u2019s future.\u201D He goes on to say: \u201CWe have already said we are not in favour of separate M\u0101ori electorates. We propose to scrap them if we become Government.\u201D\u2014God help us!\u2014\u201CThe issue is, therefore, do we contest them because they still exist or do we not contest them on the grounds that we do not think that they should exist?\u201D. The play goes on with his next line: \u201CWe do not see the logic of retaining the M\u0101ori seats themselves. We think the whole logic for those seats has long gone.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EEnter, Gerry Brownlee. In response to this question from a reporter: \u201CWould you be prepared to move away from your policy of abolishing the M\u0101ori seats?\u201D, Gerry Brownlee says: \u201CWell, that is a question that I think we need to ask, and that is why I am raising it.\u201D Now, enter, the king of the waka jumpers, Tau Henare, whose line is: \u201CWe will not get rid of them in the next 3 years, so they are around for the next election cycle and most probably the one after that, as well. I mean, it is all about what we put on the table and whom you negotiate with after the election.\u201D The star, Dr Brash, then says: \u201CWell, I am making it clear to you that the National Party remains committed to the abolition of the M\u0101ori seats.\u201D Georgina te Heuheu\u2019s line is: \u201CI have always thought that one day the seats would not be needed and that M\u0101ori should make that choice. I question whether the time has come.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E I can imagine Georgina te Heuheu, a very respected wahine from Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa, climbing on the volcano of Tongariro and wondering what was happening to the National Party. Tony Ryall has said: \u201CThe National Party\u2019s policy has always been that the M\u0101ori seats will go when the M\u0101ori people chose for them to go.\u201D, and Bill English has said: \u201CThe new voters will be young and brown, and if we\u2019re not getting their vote, we\u2019re not going to get into Parliament at all.\u201D That is the party that the M\u0101ori Party wants to dance with on the political stage. I wonder what the voters of Te Tai Tokerau, Tamaki Makaurau, Waiariki, and Te Tai Hauauru think about all that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00224d39c526810d40728fbc6fd8fe2c153e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d39c526810d40728fbc6fd8fe2c153e\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I suggest that that member leave Shakespeare alone and concentrate on the shameful position that Helen Clark has taken on PlunketLine. If we are going to bring out the old clich\u00E9 of \u201Cto be or not to be\u201D, we should remember that thousands of mothers and families who use the Plunket service are wondering just that question. The Prime Minister\u2019s position on PlunketLine is duplicitous, dishonest, and just plain dumb. We have seen an explanation in the House today from the Prime Minister that demonstrates exactly the misinformation that the Government is pedalling about PlunketLine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baac69f4ff8c4a32995577234a5ccf8c\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is unparliamentary to refer to a member as duplicitous and dishonest, and I ask that that comment be withdrawn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228833dac40a5f4fe8993e882fab9c43d5\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker, if the member had been listening she would have heard that I did not refer to Helen Clark; I referred to the position and the argument. I am able to do that under the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ee2f3913f847158d059cc9677a73fe\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Just before the member resumes her speech, I tell members that the use of cellphones in the House is not permitted. They should be switched off within the debating chamber. The use of cellphones is against Speakers\u2019 rulings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e97ff03ee0674e5bb5744c38163077fc\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: If we are looking at misinformation, we need to look only at the answers that were given in the House today. Helen Clark and Pete Hodgson continue to point out that PlunketLine handles only one in nine calls. What they do not point out is that PlunketLine is contracted to handle only a certain number of calls, and the number of calls to PlunketLine far outnumbered the volume of calls paid for by the Government. What they also do not point out is that Healthline had a huge resource that was not available to PlunketLine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIn terms of the low call-answering rates, Ministers ignore that at certain times Healthline had three times the number of nurses answering one-third of the call volume that PlunketLine had to face. Of course, Healthline looked like a star. What Helen Clark and Pete Hodgson have not explained is why the Government has snubbed a national icon for a multinational. Being overseas-owned is not in itself an issue, but if one looks at the directors on that board, one will find that there is not one domiciled director of McKesson New Zealand Ltd. Members can contrast that with PlunketLine. Kay Crowther and Plunket are supported by hundreds of thousands of Kiwi mothers and babies who use that service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe Government does not point out that it has given the Well Child service to an organisation that has limited experience in handling Well Child calls. McKesson does not even have enough nurses to answer the calls. Evidence of that can be seen in the local papers, where it is advertising for Well Child nurses. It is salt in Plunket\u2019s wounds that most of the nurses will actually come from its own service to staff the new service run by McKesson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis Government continues to put out misinformation and to promote the idea that Plunket has made huge mistakes. Actually, Plunket was caught between a rock and a hard place. The Government paid for it to answer only up to 70,000 calls. Plunket surpassed that contracted figure; it answered 76,000 calls. The problem for Plunket was that it was a successful service, and double that number of people tried to call. The Government should introduce a bit of honesty to the debate, and take into account how New Zealanders feel about that service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things that many New Zealanders already feel for Plunket is a great amount of trust; they do not feel that trust for Healthline. When mothers speak to a Plunket nurse or a PlunketLine nurse, there is already an inherent trust that has been built up over a hundred years. They do not feel that way when they talk to any other Government agency\u2014a Department of Child, Youth and Family Services worker, or a worker from Work and Income New Zealand. They will talk about certain sorts of things with Plunket nurses; they will not do so with other people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EPlunketLine is a well-known brand. Now the Government will give millions of dollars to Healthline so it can be promoted. That was not necessary, because most New Zealanders know PlunketLine\u2014it is probably one of the most well-known brands in this country. One of the things that needs to be emphasised is the connection that organisation has with New Zealand families, and that has been built up over a hundred years. That connection cannot be replaced by a new organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe key issue here is the two-faced way that some members of Parliament who are still in this House campaigned while in Opposition to save PlunketLine, yet they do something else when they are in a position of power. Helen Clark led protests up and down this country to save the service. She said: \u201CDon\u2019t let PlunketLine go cold.\u201D But she is the very person to axe it\u2014the very person who has made the decision that PlunketLine will not be supported. So I think she needs to look at herself in the mirror. Her political nose has gone off. Now she is backing something that in Opposition she spoke very strongly against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022358528a05f0841dab4aebcbf49a55c81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022358528a05f0841dab4aebcbf49a55c81\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E When leadership is in question, divisions are rife. That is what we have in the National Party. There is no leadership, and that leads to what my colleague referred to earlier, if I could use his words, as the \u201Cheadless chook\u201D syndrome. During National\u2019s 3-day caucus in Taup\u014D some time ago, its number one leadership contender, John Key, suggested that one of National\u2019s own MPs was behind claims that he was running a campaign of destabilisation against Dr Brash. The MP had accused Mr Key in the Weekend Herald of encouraging media speculation about the leadership, and claimed the caucus was furious with the finance spokesperson. The claims about a destabilisation campaign were regarded by Mr Key\u2019s supporters as an attempt by the Brash camp to spoil any attempt Mr Key might make on the leadership. John Key confirmed he knew who the individual in the caucus was, but he declined to name the person and said he would not be confronting him or her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThat level of toxicity within a party tends to be terminal for one contender or the other. The question is which contender it will be terminal for. Over half of National\u2019s supporters backed John Key to replace Dr Brash. A TV3 poll showed that 33 percent of National voters wanted Dr Brash to be replaced, which is a margin that must surely be causing the National leader some discomfort. Perhaps of even greater discomfort to Dr Brash was the clear-cut result\u2014again, amongst National voters\u2014when National voters were asked who should replace Dr Brash, if there were to be a change in leadership. The polls showed overwhelming support\u2014some 53 percent\u2014for John Key to have the top job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThat level of dissatisfaction with the current leader is clearly causing concern within the National Party. It must be causing some of the more able, new intake of National MPs to despair. One of two of them with, perhaps, some useful ability to bring to this House are sitting back and watching their front bench lead them to disaster. This cannot be what they thought would happen when they put themselves up for selection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThere is, however, a cure for their ailment. It is policy. Where there are ideas, where there are policy initiatives, and where there are novel solutions to the challenges before New Zealand, even a divided caucus will fall in behind its leaders and work together to address the critical issues of the day. Where there is a compelling vision behind which thoughtful polices are positioned, there will be a united caucus effort to realise them. The truth is that the National Party has neither a compelling vision nor any policy, thoughtful or otherwise, behind it. Dr Brash is incapable of articulating a vision, and incapable of leading policy development to a point where it can be remembered\u2014even by himself\u2014and that is driving the National caucus to gnaw itself to pieces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E In marked and absolute contrast to the National Party, Labour has a vision for this country of economic transformation, shared prosperity, inclusive celebration of our identity as New Zealanders, and giving families the best chance possible to bring up their children. We have secure, capable, and popular leadership. We have an easily articulated vision of pride in our country and its achievements. We have a team fired up on our policies and on moving forward to get them supported and implemented. In stark contrast to the lame, divided, inarticulate, unpersuasive Opposition, Labour will continue to lead this Government in a way that New Zealanders who care about fairness for all can be proud of. The policies that we have, and that we are working to get implemented and to gain popular support for, and on which we campaigned and\u2014in fact\u2014won the election, are policies around economic transformation, fairness to people, and giving families the best opportunity possible to bring up their children. They are about ensuring that the prosperity of this country is given a chance to continue to grow, and that it moves along on a stable policy platform and is shared equitably among New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb280c5484e247e884918f051c8b3060\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb280c5484e247e884918f051c8b3060\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I remind the House this afternoon that the original intent of Parliament in introducing the microchipping law for dogs was the protection of New Zealand children from dog attacks. I also remind the House that all of the parties in this House, with the single exception of ACT, voted in favour of the new microchipping regime. That included the Green Party and the National Party. Those facts seem to have been lost sight of in recent days, when we have seen some real flip-flops in their positions. I say that that was the intent of the microchipping law, and I liken it to the attempts of Parliament, over many years, to reduce the road toll. If we can take a step, as a Parliament, to protect New Zealand children from dog attacks, then we should do so. That was what we had in mind a couple of years ago, when we put the legislation in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I want to say immediately, however, that United Future supports an exemption from microchipping for working farm dogs. We support an exemption for two reasons. First of all, 40 percent of all dogs in New Zealand are working farm dogs, but dog attacks on farms constitute about 2 percent of all the dog attacks in New Zealand. In other words, 40 percent of our dogs are working farm dogs, but they are responsible for less than 2 percent of the dog attacks that occur on a daily basis in this country. Second, I draw the House\u2019s attention to the fact that in New South Wales there has been a microchipping regime for about 7 years in which all applicable dogs are microchipped. But in that state, where about 28 percent of all dogs are farm dogs, working farm dogs are excluded from the regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAccordingly, the position that United Future has on this matter is one of principle. It addresses the real issue, which is the 98 percent of dog attacks that are committed by non - working farm dogs, and has regard to the reality that those attacks occur within urban communities and not on farms. Let us not forget that all of this happened after a dog attack occurred in an urban community on little Carolina Anderson. I was here in Parliament when people from Auckland and other parts of New Zealand came here in big numbers. They said we must address the issue and make the streets of New Zealand\u2019s cities and towns safer for children when it comes to attacks from dogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe do not resile from our support for the principle of a microchipping regime. Nor will we, just because the Greens have done a massive backflip. They informed the press of this country 24 hours ago that they supported an exemption for working farm dogs, and then last night they went and said that no, it was all or nothing and they opposed microchipping in total. That is illogical and not a good example\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229baaccc31a5943ea8a03c18eaf6bbfa4\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Copeland is making a serious misrepresentation of the facts of the Green Party position. What is your advice as to how we can remedy that misrepresentation in the House, as it misleads this House and may bring the House into disrepute?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222498930e3d0d4e0f8447c2e3a90d1395\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest to the member that what we have is a debating matter, and misrepresentation must follow from the speech of the member. If he is misrepresenting what the member previously said, that is a different matter. If not, then it is a debating matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abacb7e8d454fd8b0283e438a28bc8e\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: Nor will we resile from our position on the microchipping of dogs, with the exception I mentioned of working farm dogs, just because the National Party has decided to jump on the Greens\u2019 bandwagon by abandoning in total the requirement to improve safety for children in our towns and cities in this country. I think that is a disgraceful action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ENational has chosen to go with a narrow interest group. United Future supports the farmers\u2014I have made that very clear\u2014and that is what our amendment aims to do. But to do that at the cost of abandoning the children in our towns and cities is just not acceptable to United Future. We will therefore persevere with our Supplementary Order Paper to exempt farm dogs from microchipping, and we will not, in any circumstances, join with the Greens and National in trying to repeal the regime in total. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EMy advice to the Greens and National is simply this. You do not have the numbers to repeal this legislation. Therefore, if you are sincere in your intentions, you should at least go\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec491583d8a74fc29c456e64ba068a2d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is bringing the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211fff0911af14585947b2aea8fd3935f\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon, Mr Assistant Speaker; I apologise for that. But my advice to the Green and National parties is that they, as parties, knowing that they do not now have the numbers to repeal the microchipping legislation, should go back to the position they had 24 hours ago. The National Party has already said it will support an exemption for farm dogs. [Interruption] Yes, it has said that today publicly, and the Greens should do the same thing. That would mean that we are back to where we were and New Zealand gets a good outcome. We must keep in mind the two realities that we are endeavouring to protect children from dog attacks, and that farm dogs, by and large, are not involved in those attacks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u0022427876d87a4a43bfb09d08724db999d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022427876d87a4a43bfb09d08724db999d2\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E How do we describe this Opposition? It is hard to work it out, but I have heard a few of my parliamentary colleagues use the phrase \u201Cheadless chooks\u201D and I think that fits. It is a very, very apt description. Why are Opposition members headless chooks? They are headless chooks because, first of all, they are leaderless. There does not seem to be any leadership coming from the Opposition whatsoever, and they are running around in circles like headless chooks. They are running around in circles because they cannot decide what their policy platform is, and what it is not. As we have witnessed in previous months, they have been scratching around in the dirt, as headless chooks do. That is what they have been spending their time doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIn today\u2019s debate I think we have seen that the description of headless chooks has been even more apt, because there has been a really good impersonation of Chicken Little hanging around in this debating chamber today. Chicken Little\u2014the sky is still falling. That is what we have heard during this debate. The sky, which we have been waiting to fall in for 7 years now, is still about to fall in. Headless chooks are being Chicken Little yet again today. So, the sky has not fallen in and, even though we have had those predictions now for 7 years, we just keep going forward and New Zealand keeps going forward in terms of its statistics in the OECD. We keep proving ourselves and the country is going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EJust like headless chooks, Opposition members are all right when they are kept in the coop. If they are kept cooped up, they can run around in circles, bump into the fence, and peck each other, but they are still contained so it is not too difficult. But what happens when they are let out of the coop\u2014if they are given a parliamentary adjournment? I ask members what happened during the parliamentary adjournment. First of all, we had the National Party regional conference. I was looking forward to seeing what its vision and strategy would be; I thought good policy could come from the regional conference. National members were let out of the coop\u2014let out during the parliamentary adjournment\u2014and, sadly, once again, they quickly exposed their lack of strategy and their lack of cohesion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E So what did we get from the regional conference? We got a lot of confusion about what actually is the National Party\u2019s stance on the M\u0101ori seats, for example. That comes hot on the heels of the debacle of National\u2019s last caucus gathering in Taup\u014D during the last parliamentary adjournment. Really, the chickens should be kept in the coop. They are displaying no leadership on the important issues\u2014issues like the M\u0101ori seats and antinuclear legislation. What is the National Party position on those issues? Confused? It certainly is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d44526c75764996ba6517aff7e15a34\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What about economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22941f91fbc49f68933df4093ef2b71\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: That must be particularly confusing for that member, and the other new National MPs. It must be particularly confusing for them. They add further confusion to the mix. As Ruth Berry noted in the New Zealand Herald, the maiden speeches of National\u2019s new MPs raised more eyebrows in the House because of their repeated acknowledgment of matters M\u0101ori. That is true of the new, male, provincial members in particular. Ruth Berry wrote that National\u2019s \u201CPC Eradicator\u201D, Wayne Mapp, \u201Cmust have wondered where he was supposed to look when Napier\u2019s earnest Chris Tremain delivered nearly half his speech in te reo.\u201D That just adds to all the confusion. It is no wonder there is division in National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237f43bc3ddc6449f97f54dec1dddbe6a\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Where is the \u201CPC Eradicator\u201D, I wonder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ca07bd5fd240f8985c4e4c04fabd9e\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, where is he? It is no wonder there is division in National\u2019s caucus. In contrast\u2014and, thank goodness, there is a contrast\u2014to that performance, is Labour\u2019s. Labour is in Government to make a difference for the better, and we are making a difference for real people in real families in good, practical ways. We are not fighting against ourselves; we are getting on and doing the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003ESo what did getting on and doing the job mean for the Labour Government during the parliamentary adjournment? It meant that almost three in every four New Zealand families with dependent children are now entitled to family assistance tax credits. I am sure that while we were working during the parliamentary adjournment, and while school children were on holiday, that policy made a real and practical difference to New Zealand families. I know it did. What else was going on during the parliamentary adjournment? Well, students were having their first interest-free break from lectures. What a relief that must have been for them. New Zealand is going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002220ef0db32ef54557a888683136f633cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220ef0db32ef54557a888683136f633cf\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I listened to that contribution with interest. I think that the one sentence that actually said something to me was the sentence in which the honourable member said she and the Labour Government want to make a difference for the better for real people in a real way. Much else that was said was just an attack on the National Party. The Labour member who spoke a couple of calls before that, spoke very well on a number of issues, but she told us that Labour stood for fairness. Well, let me invite Labour members, and indeed National members, to think about what is fair in this country. What should be done to make things fairer and to make a difference for real people in a real way? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis issue is a small thing, but it is a very important thing, and it is an issue that New Zealand First has stood by, and will stand firm on for many a day yet. We want GST to be removed from petrol. It has now reached the level of a fraction under 19c a litre on 91 octane petrol, and a good deal more on 96 octane petrol. Something in the vicinity of $700 million in GST is now being collected by the Government, and much of that is a windfall tax. It is a tax that the Government has not budgeted for; it just takes it and pockets it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister of Revenue today repeat what the Minister of Transport said a few days ago on television, and I heard the Minister of Finance say the same thing: that when people buy petrol at the expense of something else, that makes the whole thing tax-neutral. That is a myth\u2014a fallacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ETo put it simply\u2014and I have put it simply because I am not allowed much time\u2014there are three categories of people. There are people who can afford to buy petrol whatever the price, and whatever other commodity they also need. In other words, the increased GST is a windfall gain. I recognise that there are people who, when they fill their cars with petrol, have to make a choice. They know that if they fill the car up that week to take the children to school or take grandparents around, or whatever, they will have to cut out something else. That, it might well be argued, is tax-neutral. The third category of people are those who have to fill their tank with petrol but cannot pay their accommodation costs\u2014their rent or their mortgages, which are GST exempt\u2014and that represents a gain to the Minister of Finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have to say that when we look at the exemptions\u2014and there are not many of them; accommodations costs are one, financial services costs are another, and charitable donations are a third\u2014we see that, in essence, the tax take by this Government is increasing at the expense, to some degree, of charitable donations and, to some degree, of people paying their mortgages or their rent. We say that is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWould the Government lose all the $700 million, or whatever figure it is, if it removed GST from petrol? The simple answer is no, because many businesses use petrol to drive their equipment, their cars, and what have you. A successful business, which most businesses are, makes a deduction for the GST it paid on fuel, or indeed on any other commodity, against the GST it owes the Government. If, say, a business accrued $100 in GST on fuel-related earnings but spent $10 on GST, it will pay the Government $90. If that business has paid no GST on the cost of its petrol, then it will pay the Government the full $100. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is saying, as strongly and as loudly as it can, that it is about time we parliamentarians recognised the importance of a car to an individual in this country. I am not saying anything against public transport, but people need their cars, and they cannot afford to go out and buy smaller cars, as some people have suggested, because the loss of capital value is huge. I note that the Automobile Association has taken up this issue since the election. The Automobile Association is an organisation that represents over 1 million motorists. We in New Zealand First say that it is about time that the Government and the finance sector of the Government looked outside the square and applied some reasonable, compassionate thought to the tax take in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eea26b17d5b2494bb56ef14b625ad2b2\u0022\u003EManfeild Park Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c9f7b52cfc3542eea8f3036767e9e19e\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00221ecf922c554e435ea2fdc607dfa80b8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ecf922c554e435ea2fdc607dfa80b8f\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House for this bill to go from its second reading straight to its third reading, omitting the Committee stage, in order to have it completed today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b6c4a10f6a646d7969c748073408d81\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002253d8b0b27814446684f320e2262017c7\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00226e4cdbbd5eaa42a9a752e65241cd12cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e4cdbbd5eaa42a9a752e65241cd12cc\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Manfeild Park Bill be now read a second time. The Manfield Park Bill was referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee. I take this opportunity to thank that committee, and in particular its chairperson, Steve Chadwick, for not only accommodating this bill in a speedy way but also accommodating my own personal requirements to be at the committee at the time that the bill was put before it. Her ability to include me, as the member promoting the bill, was very much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe bill did not go through the select committee without controversy. I acknowledge the concerns that have been raised by both the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party around issues of representation on the Manfield Park Trust. I also acknowledge Metiria Turei\u2019s contribution on the committee. Her comments are contained at the conclusion of the section in the commentary that relates to the electoral college. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI say to the Green Party and the M\u0101ori Party that I hope they consider that the extension of the bill\u2019s report-back date\u2014it was reported back later than we initially thought would be the case\u2014was at least some gesture of goodwill. It enabled those who had concerns around representation on the electoral college to have an opportunity to air those concerns at the select committee in a way that ensured that they saw the process as constructive, but that also highlighted to those who will be in charge of the trust itself that some matters remain outstanding. I think that is a fair way to summarise the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe bill has been substantially altered from the time it entered the select committee, and I think that proves that the select committee process\u2014and MMP, to some extent, I say a little begrudgingly\u2014does work. The committee discovered that the original bill as drafted by the promoter was just too prescriptive in nature. It attempted to reach down into the management and representation requirements of the Manfeild Park Trust. The select committee\u2014and then, with the benefit of having heard submissions, the promoter of the bill\u2014determined that the best way to avoid the legislation coming back to the House for constant revision and amendment, as the journey of the Manfeild Park Trust commenced, was simply to make the bill as wide as possible in application and to reduce somewhat the prescriptive nature of the bill\u2019s original intent. If members look through the bill, they will see that large chunks have been struck out unanimously by the select committee\u2014apart from the electoral college provisions, which were struck out by majority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI do not want to say any more than that, other than to thank the Hon Steve Maharey for working alongside me on the progression of the bill. I believe that has made a difference to the way in which the bill has progressed through the House and the select committee, and I look forward to the bill completing all its stages this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5a3603028ec4e98a79c215e938bf24f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5a3603028ec4e98a79c215e938bf24f\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party supports the second reading this afternoon of the Manfeild Park Bill, which is being shepherded through the House by the member for Rangitikei, Mr Simon Power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EAs Mr Power said, the bill went to the Local Government and Environment Committee, where there was an opportunity for submissions to be made. As is often the case with local and private bills, there was a limited number of submissions, because the issues that the bill covers are very much localised to Manfeild Park. Indeed, the committee report notes that the committee received two submissions from interested groups and members of the public, and two from groups associated with the development of the bill. The committee heard submissions from all four groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EManfeild Park plays a very prominent role in the town of Feilding, being used for a number of community purposes and major public events. Those range from, obviously, motor sport through to the events of the local A and P association. Many other groups also use the park. The bill will set up a trust, and the committee has considered a number of provisions regarding how that trust can best be managed. Mr Power has already spoken about the make-up of the electoral college. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe Government will support the second reading of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7fa46e4e5e04b24aec1fc20148a5f2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7fa46e4e5e04b24aec1fc20148a5f2c\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call. New Zealand First did not have a member on the Local Government and Environment Committee, which looked at this bill, but from a personal point of view I need only to look at the name of the person who promoted the bill to know that it will be pretty sensible legislation. That member, Simon Power, was on the select committee I chaired in the last Parliament, and I have to say that he was a very, very good member who made a tremendous contribution. I know that he would not put forward stupid legislation. Nevertheless, New Zealand First would support the legislation anyhow, because we think it is a sensible approach to the issue on behalf of the people of Feilding and its surrounding environments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EAfter reading through the report back, I compliment the select committee on its approach in, firstly, trimming the legislation to its bare necessities, and, secondly, focusing on creating an enabling piece of legislation. I am sure that this legislation will improve the manner in which Manfeild Park can be operated. I have a brother-in-law who is a petrolhead, and I am sure that he will take a keen interest in ensuring that that part of the park, in terms of motor racing, will be used in the best way possible. We in New Zealand First hope that the passage of this bill will enable Manfeild Park to be used to its fullest potential for the benefit of the people of Feilding, in particular, and also the wider community of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00220eb0b6d3cf724beca9c951e80a3354d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eb0b6d3cf724beca9c951e80a3354d5\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I thank Simon Power very much for his comment about the concerns that the Greens raised in the Local Government and Environment Committee. It is very much appreciated. But I think it is really important that the concerns of that hap\u016B are set out for the House. The Greens considered the bill to be relatively simple and were looking forward to it being progressed. We felt confident that the issues the mana whenua had could be resolved constructively, but that was not to be the case. We had hoped the bill could be an example of the way that councils and organisations like the Feilding Industrial, Agricultural and Pastoral Association and the Manawat\u016B Car Club could work together with mana whenua, but that did not happen. We were very saddened and surprised that the select committee facilitated that failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EFirst off, let me tell members a story. Around 1876 the land owned by the mana whenua, Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata, was leased\u2014this is my understanding from the records\u2014long term to a farmer who owed money to the Bank of New Zealand. Because of the mortgage he had and the provisions of the lease agreement, the Bank of New Zealand forced the sale of the land that was leased without the consent of the owners, the mana whenua. Despite the mana whenua making numerous requests over the last 100-plus years to various Government departments and the courts, and making petitions to Parliaments\u2014all of this on record\u2014the issue of the wrongful taking of the land was not resolved, and the land remains alienated from its original owners. Now, well over 100 years later, that land has changed ownership on numerous occasions and is currently privately owned by the Manawat\u016B District Council, the Manawat\u016B Car Club, and the Feilding Industrial, Agricultural and Pastoral Association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EGiven the history of the land and the fact that it was wrongly taken, which is very common in this country, and given that the mana whenua have been trying to have the issue resolved in a constructive way for the last 100 years, with all of their petitioning in writing\u2014even going so far as to lodge a Wai claim\u2014what might we have expected the hap\u016B to have asked the select committee for? Did they want the land to be returned to them in its entirety, without charge to them? No, they did not. Did they want the current owners to pay them vast sums of money, to compensate them for the loss of profits that they might have had from the use and development of that land over the last 100 years? No, they did not. Did they ask to take royalties or rents for future use of the land\u2014the historical taking of which they have been trying to resolve? No, they did not. Did they want to have management of the land\u2014to be the decision makers over it, and to have the power of veto over any decisions made about the use of it? No, they did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EAll they asked was to be represented on the electoral college that would appoint the trustees who would manage the land. That is all they wanted. They wanted to be part of the overall governance. They did not want a veto, and they did not want the chair; they just wanted to be part of the process for the land that was wrongfully taken from them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWhat did the car club, the council, and the pastoral association say, when asked whether the hap\u016B could be on the electoral college? They said no. I asked them why they were disagreeing with such a simple, polite, and reasonable request, but they just did not want those people on that college. I was appalled that the select committee then supported that position by taking the electoral college out of the bill, thereby making it impossible for us to deal with the issues constructively. We could have done something about that. It is absolutely astounding that in 2006 this is the state of so-called race relations in this country\u2014that two M\u0101ori representatives on a simple electoral college are just two M\u0101ori too many. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022470d31e95b624cffa26795c21bbb417f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022470d31e95b624cffa26795c21bbb417f\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E The billboards welcoming visitors to Manfeild Autocourse, one of New Zealand\u2019s premier motor sport venues, promote the call to \u201Cfeel your heart racing\u201D. The hearts of the mana whenua of the land in question, Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata, were indeed racing when this bill was introduced last August. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThere is an extensive history, a whakapapa, to settlement on Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata lands. There remains no evidence of the consent of governors to the alienation of that land, and there are accordingly significant issues surrounding the ownership of Manfeild Park, claimed by the Manawat\u016B District Council, the Feilding Industrial, Agricultural and Pastoral Association, and the Manawat\u016B Car Club. Feeling is thus running high about the need for Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata\u2019s property rights and kaitiakitanga to be recognised and validated before any other decisions are made about their whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe hearts of the M\u0101ori Party MPs were also racing when we raised the exclusion of Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata at the first reading of the bill, and here, I must say, we were warmly received by the member for Rangitikei. We were delighted that Simon Power was supportive of the recommendation to meet with the chairman of Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata Trust, Dennis Emery, and trustee Professor Mason Durie. At that time he said that he anticipated that \u201Cthe trust will meet with iwi representatives during the submission process and will welcome their input.\u201D From such a meeting would come volumes of archival information about the Kawakawa Block, the subject of Ng\u0101ti Raukawa claim Wai 113 and the more specific Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata claim Wai 782. These claims are currently tabled with the Waitangi Tribunal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EAt a very minimum we assumed that the Local Government and Environment Committee would make sure M\u0101ori do not have a claim on land before it is transferred. We would have thought the situations of Paraparaumu Airport or the sale by Landcorp of Taurewa Station, which is part of the seven T\u0101whai north and \u014Ckahukura M\u0101ori land blocks, would have been sufficient reason for caution. Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata would like the opportunity to address and resolve their claims through the tribunal process before any further decisions are made. This is a simple enough request, one would think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIt was therefore very disappointing to read the report back from the Local Government and Environment Committee and to see such little consideration given to the suggestions put forward by Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata. The M\u0101ori Party will do its utmost to defend mana whenua rights and to advance Te Kauwhata\u2019s interests. This House needs to know that Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata are not opposed to the development of Manfeild Park, but they do want their unique status as mana whenua recognised, they want to be involved in an ongoing fashion, and they want their relationship to their land to be acknowledged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWhen Dr Sharples spoke on this bill during the first reading debate, he tracked over the history of this land. He advised how some 74 years ago, in 1932, tribal elders took a petition to Parliament outlining the unlawful taking of their land, but the petition was destroyed by fire. That petition outlined the alienation and unlawful taking of the Kawakawa Block. Te Komiti Marae o Kauwhata Trust member Edward Penetito has provided details of the missing 17 acres known as the Kawakawa Block. All that Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata are asking is that we think clearly, motivated to provide a proud legacy for their children and mokopuna based on justice. If we act with honour and integrity, then the legacy we leave behind will be one we can all own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe report of the select committee members noted that they were aware that some Manfeild Park land is subject to a claim before the Waitangi Tribunal. They resisted the opportunity to show leadership, backing out from the opportunity to make a stand for justice, and instead stating: \u201CIssues concerning possible land alienation are not within the scope of the bill,\u201D. We are all charged with the responsibility of making the hard decisions and of acting in the best interests of the nation. It is not as if members of the select committee can make out that they were unaware of the unresolved issues for Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata. They cannot cry ignorance or innocence. They must face up to the decision\u2014they know that the issue of land ownership is contentious, yet still they have acted against one group of New Zealanders: Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata. Will they do that to others? Will they set in place a process to steal their property rights in such an underhand way? There is no integrity in treating M\u0101ori property rights differently from non-M\u0101ori property rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThis is not enabling legislation; it is legislative theft. I remind this House of the landmark decision in 1987 by the Court of Appeal in describing the Treaty as \u201Cpart of the fabric of New Zealand society\u201D and as \u201Cthe country\u2019s founding constitutional instrument\u201D, based on legislation that prohibits \u201Cthe Crown to act in a manner that is inconsistent with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D Those are strong words\u2014words that have as much meaning for the Manfeild Park Bill as they do for any Treaty settlement, or indeed for any issue that impacts on the social, economic, and cultural well-being of the people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIf the Treaty of Waitangi is really part of the fabric of New Zealand society, we should not run roughshod over the wishes of mana whenua to be consulted, to be involved, to be included, and to be heard. Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata asked to be included in decision making as representatives of the electoral college that is to appoint and remove trustees of the Manfeild Park Trust. They came forward with a model\u2014a tangata whenua, tangata tiriti model\u2014that could be used to establish provisions for Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata to be included in this bill. So how did the select committee members respond to that genuine wish for membership on the Manfeild Park Trust electoral college? They recommended that the clauses to establish an electoral college be removed. That is shameful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThere is far more than a car club, a site for an A and P show a district council, and a motor sport venue at stake here. This is about whenua\u2014land. It is about identity, about permanence, and about property rights. Members of this House will no doubt be aware of the wealth of expressions and cultural art forms that promote a concept of the central role of land in our lives. One of Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata\u2019s leading academics, and indeed the nation\u2019s leading academic, Professor Mason Durie, argues that a lack of access to tribal land is a sign of ill-health for M\u0101ori. He concludes that a colonisation process that has marginalised M\u0101ori from land must surely be woven through an explanation of poor M\u0101ori health status. The United Nations report by the special rapporteur also endorses that view, noting: \u201CAs a result of land sales and breaches of the Treaty by the Crown, M\u0101ori lost most of their land, resources, self-governance and cultural identity.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThose issues are at the core of the status and current position of tanga whenua in Aotearoa today. With the Manfeild Park Bill this Parliament had a chance to make a difference, to write a new history. As the member of Parliament for Te Tai Hauauru I am profoundly sad that the select committee did not take up this opportunity to be innovative, to address the property rights and interests of Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata, and to show that they had been heard. The M\u0101ori Party will continue to oppose this bill until such time as the aspirations of Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata are given life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EAmendments recommended by the Local Government and Environment Committee by majority agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf21f6113908458ab343915e518982cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Manfeild Park Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d3e757ace2e4a1eba24d25ce5c631c8\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022f28933746e3c49fd8aaa71150544c987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f28933746e3c49fd8aaa71150544c987\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Manfeild Park Bill be now read a third time. Many of the arguments contained within this bill have been canvassed thoroughly in the second reading. I do not intend to delay the House any longer, but I do want to say to the M\u0101ori Party members that I listened very closely to the concerns raised by them in both the first and second readings. I acknowledge that these matters are often difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI met with Dennis Emery on a couple of occasions, and also spoke to him on the phone on a couple of occasions, to try to progress some of the concerns of Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata and of the iwi represented by him. But, in the end, the concerns raised by those iwi, in the minds of the members of the Local Government and Environment Committee, are best dealt with by the Waitangi Tribunal. In fact, two claims currently sit before the Waitangi Tribunal to address the matters put to the House by the honourable Tariana Turia. I am not saying the select committee in any way sought or intended to undermine the rights of local iwi to have those claims heard in full. In fact, it was my hope that the passage of this bill would assist them at the time the Waitangi Tribunal considers the two claims that are currently lodged before it. But it is not the role of the Local Government and Environment Committee, nor is it the role of this bill, to provide a decision on the merits or otherwise of the claims currently before the Waitangi Tribunal. It is my hope that the two iwi concerned with the matters contained in this bill will have an opportunity at the Waitangi Tribunal to put those claims in full, and it is my genuine hope that they are resolved in a way that those local iwi will be happy with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill is designed to create a very scant and non-prescriptive answer to some concerns at law that were contained in the way property was held, particularly by the Feilding Industrial, Agricultural and Pastoral Association, an association that is subject to its own legislation. This bill is the only legislative way to alleviate those concerns in a manner that would see this particular instrument provide the mechanism to allow the Manfeild Park Trust to exist in a way whereby the land would be made available according to the wishes and for the betterment of the wider Manawat\u016B community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI thank those parties that have supported this bill. In particular, as I said in the second reading, I thank the Hon Steve Maharey for his support, and the Government for its support. But I do not want to finish without acknowledging the very real concerns that have been expressed, particularly by Tariana Turia in her contribution in the second reading. It is my hope that another forum will provide the answers to those questions. I thank the House for its support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f6c7e347e9d648b08cd7dd1ca6184926\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Manfeild Park Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a97cef92c68e4e48a09bc1ad534150a0\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Flexible Working Hours) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002243fd6751311e409296ada6e1bf4ddda9\u0022\u003EConsideration of Interim Report of Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00222c4f8dd43b174f4ba942287a3bd3bdb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c4f8dd43b174f4ba942287a3bd3bdb7\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of the interim report of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on the Employment Relations (Flexible Working Hours) Amendment Bill. Today we are debating an unusual parliamentary procedure\u2014an interim report by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on my member\u2019s bill that sets aside the House\u2019s consideration of this bill for a year, so that officials can undertake further research and collect further information on workplace practices regarding flexible working hours, and consult more widely with industry, unions, and other stakeholders about how best to deliver flexible working practices in New Zealand. It is a novel procedure and I do not think it has happened in recent memory. Some say that perhaps it has never happened before, but it is a process that the Green Party welcomes and considers very constructive, because it provides us with the opportunity for more research to be undertaken by officials on the extent of flexible working practices in New Zealand and for further consultation to take place, in order to improve the wording of the bill and possibly its provisions, and also, hopefully, to allay some of the fears some employers expressed about how the bill may affect workplaces in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge that when the legislation on which this bill is based was introduced in the United Kingdom, it was Government legislation proposed by Labour in England, so the Government was able to have an extended period of consultation with employers and unions before it introduced the bill. That lengthy consultation period enabled it to iron out concerns and discuss the details of implementation. But because this is a member\u2019s bill, there has not been the same opportunity to do so here. The 1-year pause enables that to happen, and we welcome that as a very constructive and innovative process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI thank the chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, the Hon Mark Gosche, for his positive role in facilitating this novel process and for his support for the bill. I also thank all of the members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for their consideration of the bill and all the submitters\u2014I think there were about 100\u2014who made submissions on it. We believe that the fears expressed by some of the employers who made submissions during the hearings on the bill were unfounded. We believe that if they really understood the huge proven advantages that flexible working offers employers in terms of increased productivity, reduced absenteeism, and so forth\u2014and the tremendous success of the almost identical legislation in the United Kingdom\u2014they would embrace the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe quality of our working lives, work-life balance issues, and more flexible working practices, especially for employees with families, are huge issues in New Zealand, and survey after survey has confirmed that. A recent survey of 4,500 parents found that 93 percent of them said that the single change they would most like to see in the workplace was flexible working hours. They said they were finding it increasingly difficult to juggle paid work and parenting and they felt unsupported by workplaces. Regardless of their gender, age, or ethnicity, the need for more flexible workplaces was the single most important issue. It was the same in numerous other surveys. In a survey of 1,200 fathers, 80 percent said that they wanted to be able to spend more time with their children. Another survey by a recruitment agency found that almost a third of people said they believed their current working hours were undermining family life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBut I think the reason this is such an important social issue here in New Zealand is that we stand out internationally in terms of the proportion of people who are working long hours. On average, New Zealanders work 1,826 hours a year, compared with an average of 1,778 hours across the OECD. One study the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions referred to in its submission showed that one in five workers in New Zealand works 50 or more hours and, as its working families study showed, that culture of long and, indeed, excessive working hours impacts heavily on parents with children or other dependants. We heard in the submissions to the committee numerous examples of parents who were having great difficulty in trying to cope with long working hours and commutes, and with raising their children. So it is time that Parliament addressed this important social issue. This bill presents us with the opportunity to do so, and to encourage employers to go beyond the work-to-rule mentality and recognise the immense benefits in providing more flexible working arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI will not go into very much detail about the bill. It is based on UK legislation, where parents with young or disabled children have the right to request\u2014and that is all it does. All it enshrines is a statutory right to request to work flexible working hours, and a framework to negotiate to work those hours. So it is really minimal legislation. The employer can turn down a request, but the employer has a statutory duty to consider that request seriously. In fact, many submitters among businesses that opposed the bill thought that it was about the right to work flexibly, when it is actually a much more modest right just to request to work flexibly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe legislation has been enormously successful in the UK, even though it is modest legislation. More than a million employees in the United Kingdom have successfully used the mechanisms in the bill to seek flexible working hours, and 90 percent of the requests have been accepted in whole or through a compromise. I think a recent study found that almost 90 percent of cases were settled very easily, and many of the requests are made by email. It is very minimal and low-cost legislation but, interestingly, when the bill was proposed in the United Kingdom, employers there expressed the identical fears that some employers here have expressed\u2014namely, that it would increase compliance costs. None of those fears have been realised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOne of the great things about introducing legislation that already exists elsewhere is that there have been more than five comprehensive surveys carried out by business organisations in the UK, such as the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, and the UK Department of Trade and Industry. All of those surveys have found that most employers in the UK\u2014for example, 76 percent in one study\u2014have had little difficulty with that new right. They did not believe that it had tipped the balance too far in favour of working parents. The UK Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development found that 90 percent had no significant problems in complying with the new requirements, despite the concerns about that before the bill was passed. Sixty percent of employers who provided some form of flexible working hours considered the practice to be cost-effective; there were minimal or no costs. I could go on and on, but the good news, too, is that huge benefits were found in terms of increased productivity, etc. The legislation has been a huge success there, so why would we not embrace it here? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EMore than a hundred submissions were heard on the bill, which was overwhelmingly supported by women\u2019s organisations, unions, and women\u2019s business organisations, but employers raised three issues. They said that they did not need legislation, because they already had flexible working hours. They said that all they needed was education. The claim that we have flexible working hours does not stack up. Just in 2004 research by Toshiba found that few organisations in New Zealand have embraced the practice of flexible working. Most had only a vague understanding of the advantages. I have already cited the survey in which the overwhelming majority of parents said that it was the single most important change they would like to see in the workplace. If we had flexible working hours, then 93 percent of parents would not be saying that that was the change they would most like to see. The fact is that although there are some outstanding examples of workplaces that do introduce flexible hours, such as Telecom and Treasury, most employees do not have them in their workplaces. So we need legislation that ensures that all employees, and not just those who work at Telecom or Treasury, etc., have access to those flexible working arrangements, particularly when their children are young. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAs for the argument about education, we have had education on the issue for years. It has gone on and on. The Equal Employment Opportunities Trust has been plugging away. In fact, back in 1971 flexible working hours was one of the main demands of the women\u2019s movement. That was 37 years ago. Are we going to wait another 37 years for it? Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands\u2014many countries go much further than this bill goes. They provide a legal right to request more flexible working arrangements for all workers. Many submitters supported extending the right, and we would definitely like to extend it, certainly in the first instance, for all persons caring for an elderly dependant, which has just been done in the UK, and, indeed, in time across the entire workplace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe believe that this bill is not just about assisting our parents struggling with full-time work and trying to look after young families, although that is very important; it is about encouraging a more flexible results-driven rather than an hours-driven culture, and about a much more innovative culture in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022db381147d0d24ce58641fc408963c9e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db381147d0d24ce58641fc408963c9e7\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003EThank you for the call, Mr Deputy Speaker, although I will say at this point that the other person seeking the call, Mr Gosche, was the chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and I feel that that probably should be noted in the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI guess what the report does is to sound a note of caution\u2014which was certainly the National Party\u2019s concern, to put it mildly\u2014about this whole bill. We support the recommendation that more research needs to be done. I would have to say, however, that we anticipate that that research will show the opposite conclusion to that drawn by Ms Sue Kedgley, who is the promoter of the bill. There were a large number of submissions\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and they were divided. Many of them, I would have to say, were based on some misapprehension, in that people making submissions would often say that they personally did not have a problem because they had flexible working hours, but they believed that others had a problem and therefore the bill was necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe key point that I and other National speakers wish to make\u2014and it is in direct contradiction to the viewpoint of the Green Party\u2014is that New Zealand actually does have a culture of flexible working hours, although perhaps not in exactly the way Sue Kedgley believes. We have a lot more part-time work now. A lot of families, in particular, value the importance of part-time work, because when young children are involved in the family it is very difficult for both parents to work full-time. In fact, the practice of working part-time is far more suitable and appropriate to the needs and demands of family life in such circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere is a huge amount of part-time work in the New Zealand workplace, and it exists for a reason. It is not because there are not enough jobs; rather, it is because it meets the needs of people seeking employment. In a relatively tight labour market\u2014and I acknowledge that that does exist to some extent at the present moment\u2014employers have had to be flexible in order to recruit staff. I imagine that the Green Party member might ask what the situation will be when the market is less tight. I am sure she would argue that we will need a more prescriptive approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI also want to make it clear that business organisations, and in particular Business New Zealand, the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern), and the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Central) were not opposed to the idea of more education, more analysis, more discussion, and more debate on how we can deal with these issues. That was one of the things they made a particular note of at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. That fact was perhaps not immediately evident in their initial submissions, but it was certainly evident in the oral submissions that were made. I note that Ms Kedgley acknowledges that particular point. There is an opportunity here, I suggest, for the Equal Employment Opportunities Trust to take an active role. That is, I imagine, the sort of the thing that would be developed and discussed in this year-long period of further analysis, consideration, and discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that did come to the fore\u2014and I do not believe it has been properly acknowledged thus far in the debate\u2014is what has happened in the United Kingdom. This is very much, in the words of Dr Ross Armstrong, a situation where first-mover advantage can apply. An employer can certainly provide flexibility for the first people who apply\u2014there has been no real difficulty in the UK around that\u2014and in truth that would actually apply whether or not legislation was in place. It is easy to accommodate the first people, because, frankly, not very much adjustment is required in the balance of the workforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EEvidence was brought by various submitters in business organisations that as more and more people apply, the legislation becomes more and more difficult. It is much harder to accommodate the later people who apply, because at that point one starts to put real pressure on the accommodations that other employees have to make. So it is very much an advantage to the first people who apply and not so much for the later group. That seems to be one of the stresses and strains that is occurring in the UK situation, and that is certainly the evidence that was given to us by submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe other point I wish to raise is that New Zealand is uniquely, and certainly much more so than Europe, a place of small businesses and small workforces. That means two things. It means that there is a very close and intimate relationship between employer and employee, and that a pattern of dialogue and discussion is just simply what happens in the workplace. Actually, one does not need complex systems of industrial law to accommodate people in that situation. If people wonder why unionism has dropped off so dramatically in New Zealand, and it has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ca58c6742344f29490e95a0bfa2f8a\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: It is growing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c608ca543496442295c6c3c685e62e64\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I can tell them it is because it is not relevant for small workplaces. I hear Darien Fenton say it is growing, but it is growing primarily in the State sector and in large business organisations. In small workplaces that is simply not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EEmployers and employees simply do not see unions as relevant to their lives. They do not see the whole process of adjudication and so forth as necessary and relevant in their lives. People make their own arrangements, and when they cannot make their own arrangements they go and find more suitable arrangements, and often the person who loses out in that particular case is the employer who chose not to be flexible enough. There is a dynamic workplace environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI heard on the radio the other day Mr Andrew Little acknowledge that people change their jobs much more frequently today than they did previously. Now, that is hardly a revelation, but it was an important point for him to note. The truth is that people do not go for lifetime employment, by and large. They do not work for decades for one employer. Increasingly, people change jobs on a regular basis. Increasingly, people work in smaller enterprises, start ups, and so forth, and that is the fundamental reason why there has been a reduction in unionism. It does not fit the needs of many contemporary workplaces, but I acknowledge it has a role in more traditional work sites. So National is saying, yes, we are supporting this delay for consideration, but in truth we expect an outcome that is different from what the Green Party expects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to conclude on this particular point. One of the things that is often said by members on the Government side\u2014not all of them, I acknowledge, but some of them\u2014is that, in essence, employers are only out to exploit people, that they take a dog-eat-dog approach to the world, that they want to have no dialogue or discussion with their employees, and that they just want to be able to set the rules and that is that. Well, I would suggest that the submissions made by, in particular, Business New Zealand, the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Central) Inc., and many other employers show a change of approach and a recognition that dialogue is critical for good working relationships. I guess that has been a fundamental lesson that has been learnt as our economy has become more open and more flexible in recent years, and as employees are much more willing to change their jobs\u2014indeed they want to\u2014more regularly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe old-fashioned view that the employers are rigidly on one side and the employees are all on the other side, within unions, simply no longer applies in the contemporary workplace\u2014certainly not to the extent it might have in the past. A new dynamic exists in the contemporary workforce, and it is our view that this bill does not recognise that sufficiently, and that there is, in fact, a better way of dealing with these issues\u2014which are real; I acknowledge that. There are real issues involved, but there are better ways of dealing with them than this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u00228d013fc972f6444f8b8ef74e70290fd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d013fc972f6444f8b8ef74e70290fd4\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Sue Kedgley, first of all, for promoting this bill and beginning a debate in this country about the way forward on this issue, and I thank fellow members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, who attacked this issue with, I think, some genuine interest. The politics, I suppose, have been largely taken out of the report, if we read it, and we are actually trying to find solutions. It is perhaps a good course of action for other members who promote members\u2019 bills to look at. Here, a promoter of a bill has agreed to have that bill held over for another year so that further debate, study, and, hopefully, education, can take place. In a year\u2019s time this Parliament may decide that we do not need this bill, or it may decide that we do need to pass legislation. It gives a good opportunity and a window for people to actually prove their points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe arguments put before the select committee were really about whether we should regulate or educate. Largely, employers indicated a preference for education, and, largely, the people representing workers\u2014and that in itself was a very interesting collection of people; everyone from women in the law, through to business and professional women, through to the traditional trade unions\u2014preferred regulation. Some employers also wrote submissions stating that they supported the legislation, but by the time they turned up at the select committee they had slightly changed their minds, which was interesting. However, everybody agreed that flexible working hours are desirable. The problem is in defining who sets the flexible working hours, and the select committee heard many different arguments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhat I would like to see, before going into a little bit more detail about those arguments, is this year taken up as an opportunity by the Department of Labour, employers, unions, and any other representatives of workers to see how the education approach actually would work in New Zealand, because we have a 12-month window of opportunity. Let us hope it is taken up with vigour, because at the end of that year the select committee will be able to say that the arguments were right\u2014that the education way is the correct way and we do not need to regulate. I am hoping that all those employer organisations that came along and said that this is the way forward\u2014and so did the Council of Trade Unions; it said that education was a vital part of this\u2014will grab this opportunity and run with it. I think we would probably all be happy if we could achieve the result that this bill seeks to achieve, without regulation and without law. But let us see how it goes over the next 12 months, and see whether a concerted effort can be made through a tripartite approach among the Government, workers, and employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that the flexible working hours arrangements in some industries are good, but some are not. One employer submission just about convinced me on the spot that this law should be passed. That was from the Hospitality Association. What did it say? I know those people from way back. That industry has the most flexible working hours one can imagine in this country, because the hospitality industry is a 24/7 industry, and has been for most of New Zealand\u2019s history. The association\u2019s idea of flexible working hours is to go down the street and see about 20 restaurants all offering different, flexible working hours. The hospitality industry describes itself as being very democratic. The view is that if employees do not like the hours at a particular restaurant, they should just vote with their feet and go down the road and get a new job. That is the sort of unenlightened approach that makes it necessary to have this bill. So there is a big, black mark against the hospitality industry for the submission it made. That one single submission almost convinced me that Sue Kedgley\u2019s bill should not only be passed but be strengthened. So that industry needs to learn something from the other industries that came along and gave us a much better picture of what could be done. Telecom made a good submission and outlined, as did other organisations, how it worked with its workforce to provide flexible working hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhat was very clear from the Human Rights Commission was that we do not really know enough about what is actually happening in New Zealand in this context. Where are the good examples? How can other employers learn from those good examples? That education process could take off and make a good deal of progress in the next year. So we are pleased to see that the Human Rights Commission and other organisations are willing to help in this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWe heard from workers who came along and said they have flexibility beyond belief. They came from the National Distribution Union and told us that their hours are so flexible that they do not know what their hours will be tomorrow. That is the sort of problem that families have to contend with. It has been interesting this week to see organisations throw up their hands in horror at the idea of a kids\u2019 hotel, where people will have 24-hour-a-day, 7-day-a-week opportunities to put their kids into childcare. I felt somewhat queasy at that idea too, having three adult children now, and watching my grandson, who spends quite a bit of his time in childcare centres. It is very different from my upbringing, when mum stayed at home and looked after the seven kids while dad went out to work. We have changed as a society. But people are looking at this idea of 7-day-a-week, 24-hour-a-day childcare centres with somewhat of a queasy approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ESo what does that say about the need for real flexibility that goes both ways? I congratulate the Federation of Business and Professional Women on its submission, because it pointed out that childcare centres do not operate to cover those women who are suddenly required to be at a breakfast meeting at 7.15 a.m. and who are told that they are not pulling their weight and are not part of the team if they do not turn up to after-work drinks. They may have to contend with the sudden appearance of chickenpox and cannot take the kids to a childcare centre for those 2 weeks when they might give everybody else chickenpox. Do we have genuine flexibility on both sides of the argument in terms of employee and employer when having to deal with those types of issues? Certainly, a lot of the women who appeared before the select committee outlined their difficulties. For example, women lawyers indicated that about a quarter of the legal staff in New Zealand are working in a part-time capacity because there is not adequate flexibility to be able to cope as a working woman with the demands of a very busy legal practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ESo there were very powerful arguments from that side of the argument as to why one might want to regulate. But, equally, there were powerful arguments from a lot of employers. They came along and said in a very considered way that they have to take into account a whole lot of other things, and that the bill did not necessarily cover all of their concerns. There were contractual arrangements. Points were raised about seniority and the right to work extra hours in the bus industry, for instance. Contracts of employment have to be dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ESo this is an opportunity for employers, unions, and the Department of Labour and other Government agencies to get their heads together and work through a good education programme, in order to pick up on the research that the select committee clearly saw as being lacking. We have that opportunity over the next 12 months, and I applaud the select committee for taking a very mature approach to this bill. When we next report, Parliament will get a clearer picture of the situation. Hopefully in the 12-month period of time we will see a great deal of effort made by employers, unions, and Government departments to try to make sure that flexibility is a two-way thing, and see good examples shown by employers to other employers as to how they were flexible and how that might fit different workplaces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe 12-month period also gives Sue Kedgley, as the promoter of the bill, an opportunity to listen to the submitters who have made valid criticisms about the bill itself\u2014the way it was drafted and where the gaps are. They said it did not go far enough, and I agree with that. I do not think it went far enough in terms of the types of people it would apply to. There is no reason why others should not be entitled to this type of thing if it were made law. We have a good opportunity now as a Parliament to consider this matter again, and hopefully we will come back with a decision that is based on a lot more fact, a lot more knowledge, and a lot more work. So I say well done to Sue Kedgley for promoting this bill, and I again thank the select committee members for a job well done in compiling this interim report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00225c44ae8373c74d4790253a3bfca17eb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c44ae8373c74d4790253a3bfca17eb7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Let me start by saying that New Zealand First supports the concept of flexible working hours. When one compares this country with places like the UK, we see that to a large degree we already have them. When I was an employer some years ago, I offered very flexible working hours to many of my staff, and for many more comprehensive reasons than this bill provides for. Indeed, it was made known to us on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee that the Employment Relations Act has actually strengthened the ability to request flexible working hours more than perhaps was the case when the Employment Contracts Act was in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Hon Mark Gosche made some very, very good points, but I have to say I think he was a little bit harsh on the submitter from the hospitality industry. It just goes to show how one side can misunderstand the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245bacd2c54474a6d8a36b5d06a5b0af1\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: I understood exactly what he was talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225441dc24bdce4092aaf9f3186f64cff3\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I took it from his submission that he was saying that effectively the industry has got to cater for its staff and has got to consider a request for flexible working hours, otherwise they will walk down the street and get the hours they want in the next caf\u00E9. But those members did not see that. It is like seeing one\u2019s beer glass as half empty or half full, and I have to say that I think Bruce Robertson made that point pretty clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d8649243da4f12b043a392d8806078\u0022\u003EHon Jim Sutton\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member answer a question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd87416a2c74f4a8753567ffd48db48\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I will answer any question, but the member should put it at question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac220f85eb345ee8a10df4f2b809a67\u0022\u003EHon Jim Sutton\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member impose flexible hours on his employees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c738f6cb9414e70a147ab59808d6f0b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what the member means. When I was manager of the Bay of Plenty Stevedoring Co. Ltd, I listened to my employees\u2019 concerns and gave them as much flexibility as I possibly could. In fact, I am 20 years ahead of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have to take my colleague Dr Mapp to task, because in the last 2 minutes of his speech, which seemed like an eternity, he spoke of a them-and-us culture. I say to Dr Mapp that when we compare this country with the UK and Australia, we can see that we have never had a them-and-us culture. There has always been dialogue. I have dealt with the toughest unions\u2014the unions for seafarers and stevedores\u2014on a day-to-day basis, and more than anybody else here. Nobody should try to tell me that they are a bunch of wimps, because I can tell people that they are not. I have to say to members that, in comparison with the UK, there is a huge amount of dialogue here, although the UK might well have improved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI say to Sue Kedgley that there used to be a saying in the UK: \u201CGet a bar of Lifebuoy.\u201D That might be news to the House. It was a polite way of saying that someone had BO. I am not about to tell Sue Kedgley that she has BO\u2014she has not\u2014but most certainly she has got this bill wrong, and the polite assertions being made here will not give her that impression, at all. First of all\u2014and she corrected it, and I take my hat off to her for correcting it\u2014clause 3(1) stated: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to grant qualifying employees the right to change their working hours \u2026\u201D. She changed that by stating that it means to make a request to change their working hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EShe made reference to similar legislation in the UK. The explanatory note of the bill states: \u201CThe bill sets out the reasons which would justify rejecting a request\u2014including the burden of additional costs to the business and the inability to organise work within available staffing.\u201D There is no reference at all in this bill to giving an employer the right to reject a request on the basis of cost. That provision is in the UK bill, as is another one providing that an employer can reject a request on the basis of the effect it will have on the company\u2019s clients. Clearly, those provisions were taken out by the Greens before they put up this bill for a first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI say that it is a little bit naughty to then stand in the House, both in the first reading debate and just now, and say that this bill is based on the UK legislation. It is based on the UK legislation, but some very, very significant clauses have been taken out. New Zealand First has a large concern that this bill applies only to people who have responsibility for young children up to the age of 5, or for disabled children up to the age of 18. It ignores people who take on responsibility for elderly parents or other family members, and caregivers at large. That is not good enough. In this modern society, those people play a very prominent part. I heard the member say that she will include them now, but I would have much preferred this bill to be more comprehensive when it first came to this House. As I recall, New Zealand First voted against it then for the very same reasons I am outlining now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe welcome the year for education. The Hon Mark Gosche said that it was a question of regulate or educate. We believe he hit the nail on the head. We welcome the year, or thereabouts, to educate the public. We were told by Business New Zealand and other employers that they fully support a regime\u2014for want of a better word\u2014of educating employers, but we are not prepared to treat employers like fools. We believe that New Zealand employers for the most part know what they are doing, know what they can afford, know what they want to achieve, and have the talents to run successful businesses. So if they say they cannot live with flexible working hours, New Zealand First is prepared to listen to them, and to listen to them seriously. We need successful employers in this country, and we should be promoting and encouraging them. That does not mean we remove our sympathy towards people who want to have flexible working hours. We want that, but we will not impose these sorts of conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EMark Gosche illustrated quite a few of the situations we heard about at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, where employees outlined difficulties, and, I think, all of us on the select committee had sympathy for the plight of those people. But we also heard from employers who said it is very impractical, very difficult, or very costly simply to implement flexible working hours across the board. I think those employers should be listened to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will support legislation that is fair to both employees and employers. But I have to say as strongly as possible that we will not support legislation that looks only at the needs of caregivers of children. We want legislation that bases flexible working hours around all caregivers, including people who look after the elderly. We have an ageing population in this country\u2014500,000 of them right now\u2014and in not too many years\u2019 time we will have a good deal more. Indeed, I might be one of them in a few years\u2019 time. I want to give people who look after the elderly a fair go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EAs Wayne Mapp illustrated, under similar legislation in the UK a person can come along and receive flexible working hours, but those in the queue behind that person may receive nothing or very little. We think that situation is not flexible enough, so when the new draft of this bill comes back to the House, it must embrace all these concerns. It is a serious issue, and I do not want to move away from recognising that fact. If we are to bring in legislation like this, we have to get it right. We have to consider everybody and anybody who could be affected by it, from employers, to caregivers of children, through to caregivers of elderly folk. We need to be fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI believe that an honest attempt will be made by employers to try to sell this to other employers in a fair way, and I wish them well. The feedback I am receiving from employers and employer groups is that they have taken on board the fact that Parliament is looking at this legislation, they want to encourage its development, and they are prepared to play a positive role in educating their folk. But I want to make it clear that the employer must always have the right to reject a request for flexible working hours where there are genuine reasons to reject it. He or she runs the business and is captain of the ship, and New Zealand First is not encouraging mutinies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00224a9cb27754794eb8b0e0ddb2ed26991c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a9cb27754794eb8b0e0ddb2ed26991c\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E The M\u0101ori Party is pleased to support Sue Kedgley\u2019s bill, because it is a genuine attempt to help people to balance their work and family life\u2014although if I were to go across the road to my marae back home and ask my aunties how they were handling their work-life balance, they would probably slap my ears and tell me to stay out of their business and get back on the taumata. Work-life balance is not something that people in my neck of the woods have even heard about yet, although they certainly understand the need to work when there is work to be done and to stop to smell the daisies when the work has all been done. Yet trying to juggle the pace of life that is becoming more and more frenetic in today\u2019s evermore complex world requires us all to consider that balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori are used to doing things like holding down a job while at the same time helping at the marae, running kids to sports and w\u0101nanga, organising gear for the school kapahaka, running the batons up, looking after the mokopuna, fund-raising for school trips, paying the bills, cooking for nephews and nieces who drop by every day, and keeping the home safe, and they still have time to worry about how their kids are doing and about where they are, who they are hanging with, what they are getting up to, and how come they are too tired to do any work around the house but they always have time to loaf around town doing nothing at all. It is those kids we are thinking about in supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI think of the way kids text one another instead of talking\u2014even when they are in the same room. In my day it was kanohi ki te kanohi, or face to face, and that is how we got on with one another. In today\u2019s world it is k\u014Dnui ki te k\u014Dnui, or thumb to thumb. It is a whole different way of relating to people, and it is hard for parents to understand, because we are so locked up in our world of work, work, work. We just do not have the time to see what the kids are doing. I can see how this bill will benefit working parents and their wh\u0101nau, as well as their workplaces. In giving employees with young children the right to ask for flexible working hours, and requiring employers to take these requests seriously, this bill is what we like to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EYesterday I challenged this Parliament to hear the May Day signals and recognise, protect, and preserve parents\u2019 rights against the onslaught of society\u2019s drive to force mothers and fathers into the workforce. I made that challenge because I think this nation has had enough of the mean-spirited attacks on parents and their responsibilities, including the marginalisation and exclusion of beneficiary parents from the Working for Families package and the bizarre shut-down of one of this country\u2019s most cherished parent support services, PlunketLine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI just note for Dr Mapp, in case he has forgotten, that the reason why unions are not so strong is not that workers do not feel the need for them any more; it is that National passed legislation that smashed them. To Labour\u2019s everlasting shame, it did nothing to return that power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI made my challenge yesterday because I think of the need for us to move forward, and I have to say I am greatly saddened, in reflecting on the Working for Families package, to note that Labour\u2019s M\u0101ori MPs not only sat by but actually voted for that legislation, which denies vital support to more than 100,000 M\u0101ori children. Thankfully, the Greens have heard that call, and I am happy to note that within 24 days of my May Day alert we have a bill before the House that supports parents in the workforce and challenges the culture that discriminates against employees with families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI also take note of the report of the special rapporteur on the situation of human rights and fundamental freedoms of indigenous peoples, which recommends that \u201CSocial delivery services \u2026 should continue to be specifically targeted and tailored to the needs of Maori, requiring more targeted research, evaluation and statistical data bases.\u201D The rapporteur\u2019s comments are important, because we need to have the proper data to hand if we are to clearly identify the needs of the sector of society that is most affected by trends in employment and unemployment\u2014M\u0101ori. We need to develop proper education programmes to ensure workers are best able to take advantage of flexible working hours. The situation of M\u0101ori workers is important. Because many M\u0101ori in the workforce are employed in vulnerable, last-hired first-fired jobs, their right to request flexible working hours is very likely to go untested, for fear of losing their jobs. Having the proper information to hand, then, is very important, but this could become a problem given that this Government has decided to shelve the gathering of M\u0101ori data. Again, this is a matter of huge concern for M\u0101ori, and one about which Labour\u2019s M\u0101ori MPs have been strangely silent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party is mindful of the greater wh\u0101nau obligations of M\u0101ori employees. The fact that M\u0101ori are more likely to undertake voluntary work is an ever-growing reality of the increasing number of solo parent employees. The tension from balancing paid work with family responsibilities is a huge issue for everyone in Aotearoa, and at a time when pressures are increasing on wh\u0101nau, a little flexibility has to be a great idea. As a parent and a grandfather who has raised his mokopuna for the last 11 years, I see heaps of benefits for flexibility in the workforce. As an employer, I have always operated on the basis that my staff members\u2019 personal time is as valuable to me as their work time, and that if I can help to enhance their personal situation, the benefits will be felt in the workplace as well. My stories are anecdotal, of course, but the official research confirms that view. If we give families a break, everybody wins. There will be lower absentee rates, better morale, less staff turnover and recruitment costs, and, of course, that all translates into greater workplace productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFor all the technological advances of the last half-century, we do not, for some strange reason, seem to be working any less. In fact, the opposite seems to be the case\u2014we are overworking. Overwork threatens our health. It leads to fatigue, and accidents and injuries, and it forces us to eat fast food and have frantic relationships. It means less time for each other, for our kids, for our wh\u0101nau, and even for our elders. Overwork also reduces employment. Fewer people working longer hours reduces the number of workers needed, and it adds stress and burn-out to those who are working. With higher unemployment, employers feel comfortable about pushing back working conditions, and pushing down wages. So we are finding that the low paid are on a frenetic Ferris wheel\u2014needing to work longer and longer hours just to earn enough to get by. Higher-paid people often feel trapped into working more hours than they want to, in order to keep pace with their own station in life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party congratulates the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions on speaking out against this spiralling pattern of stress and burn-out, and on its campaign for work-life balance called Get a Life! Its national secretary, Carol Beaumont, recently said: \u201CThe Government must make sure that laws which set out the minimum code for workers\u2019 pay and conditions take into account the need for balance between work and life.\u201D A few years ago a poll conducted by the Center for a New American Dream showed that 60 percent of Americans felt too much pressure to work, and more than 80 percent wished they had more family time. More recently, Time magazine featured a New Jersey initiative called Ready, Set, Relax!, which was described by one local businessman as a citywide sanity check\u2014to slow down and to persuade frazzled families to put down some speed bumps in their fast-paced lives. So this bill is consistent with positive working trends from all around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIn the same way that a Government has the authority to ensure proper working conditions, it also has the authority to empower workers to negotiate flexible working hours. Another intriguing question, of course, is how we would spend that time and energy if we had those hours. We might cancel something hectic in our calendar\u2014maybe even change our children\u2019s schedule, as well, to spend a bit of quality time with them. We might take the wh\u0101nau out to lunch, switch off the TV, talk to one another, go and watch the kids play sport, or just go to the beach and enjoy the sun. It is all a question of how we choose to balance out our lives. This bill is a moment in time to say: \u201CStop, get a life, get ready to relax, take a nationwide sanity check, take back your time, and reclaim your life.\u201D This is a good bill, and on behalf of all wh\u0101nau in Aotearoa, M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, we stand to support it wholeheartedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb889db7fe47433b9e0a31ff5e6ae2d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb889db7fe47433b9e0a31ff5e6ae2d5\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E Let me say from the outset that I fully support flexible working hours\u2014where possible. I did not have the privilege of hearing the submissions and the discussion at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. I wish I had done so, so that today I would, from memory, be able to discuss some of what was heard there. But I have taken the time to read the opinions of a number of people, and the reports back. I commend the fact that we will have a year to look into whether this legislation will achieve what Green Party member Ms Kedgley intends it to achieve, but I have grave misgivings for what it might mean for New Zealand businesses, and for what it is saying about New Zealand families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EAs I often like to do, I will start by looking at the history of this legislation. The Green Party member Ms Kedgley promotes the UK view that legislation is the way to achieve this flexibility and work-life balance. Members should make no mistake: this bill is largely about women, for it is women who will often want that flexibility to attend to their family duties. Women have come a very long way over the years in showing their value in the workplace, and in being valued in the workplace. They are valued for their skills, and their employers know it. Employers would be the first to say that they do not want their valuable employees to move on because they cannot find some form of balance in how they utilise their hours. In the last 4 years there has been an increase of more than 16 percent in women\u2019s participation in the workplace. That suggests to me\u2014and I think it may do to others\u2014that that might have happened because the contemporary workplace is a good place to be and because it has attracted women back into it, which may well be because they have been able to achieve flexibility. I do not pretend that that will always be the case for everyone, but I am suggesting, from what I have read and heard, that it is the case in many, many situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe philosophy behind this bill is admirable. But, equally, there are significant potential fish-hooks aplenty. Family-friendly policies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b01a31bceb3c4bacb778bebe4d8c4393\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why National will vote against it when it comes back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222646796f0f624786b89f2fb5c1e5072e\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: I hear on the other side of the House that National will vote against the bill, but I want to say that we are looking very positively towards the year of gathering information. We will not make our decisions today about how we will be voting in a year\u2019s time; the member suggests, unkindly, that we will. We are, however, supporting this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784cf1fc0b774c81b587447498299f6b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member bet me $10? I\u2019ll bet you $5!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221008a2c0319146349b025acaade19cba\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not a betting woman. So the philosophy, as I have said, is admirable. Family-friendly policies sound great, and having work-life balance sounds great, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EBut New Zealand businesses\u2014and 95 percent of them are small businesses\u2014are not the proverbial Father Christmas. They have to make their businesses pay; they have an investment to protect. I bring to members\u2019 attention here today a number of implications of this bill for businesses. It is said that the bill will possibly create difficult hurdles for business, to the point where it might be unfair or impossible for some businesses to implement the legislation. In a comment in the Independent, Marlborough Chamber of Commerce Chief Executive Officer, Tim Leslie, said that flexibility should not be a right but that it should be part of a negotiation of employee conditions. I agree wholeheartedly. Mr Phil O\u2019Reilly from Business New Zealand says he has yet to see proof of the problem Ms Kedgley is trying to fix and, if it does exist, he says education is the better route. Of course, in the House this afternoon we have already heard support for education as an option for improving the number of workplaces that offer flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe bill is being deferred, and for good reason. It is so that officials can collect and collate reliable information on New Zealand workplace practices, for it seems clear that the select committee heard that many are offering that flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EMr O\u2019Reilly also pointed out that maybe this family-friendly bill will exclude some who have family responsibilities towards elderly parents or sick spouses, and today Ms Kedgley has acknowledged that and said she would like to see the bill extended. But I worry that that might be the thin end of the wedge and that we will find, as in the paid parental leave legislation, that once everyone is included it will not represent what we had hoped. Everyone will have so much flexibility that we will put businesses out of business. I ask where the responsibility that New Zealanders have to look after family starts and ends. This Government, and clearly the Green Party too, would have us believe that it is the responsibility of businesses to put at risk their profitability, in order to assist employees to meet their responsibilities to family members. As a parent, I took on employment that meant I was able to meet my obligations as a parent, and I know I was lucky in that respect. But my various employers assisted by varying my hours where possible, because they were good employers\u2014and possibly because they also wanted to keep me on. They did not need legislation to enforce their provision of flexible working hours where their circumstances of running the business allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EOther examples in my electorate of Aoraki abound. It is largely a rural service area of the country, and I have been approached by businesses that are concerned by this bill because they have some women\u2014a small number only\u2014who work in those businesses. They have offered those women what flexibility they can, but the reality is that the businesses operate between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. and the women in the businesses, should they ask for more flexibility, would certainly not to be able to answer customers\u2019 calls after 5 o\u2019clock at night, because those calls just do not occur\u2014they do not happen after 5 o\u2019clock at night. So employers will have to turn those requests down. Interesting reasons abound for the requests for flexibility, such as employees having too little time to spend with their families. Does that mean, perhaps, that after parents have had a busy day at home with their families and their children, businesses should crank up and operate at night to suit the needs of those parents? Perhaps I take that to the extreme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe benefits to business of flexible working hours have been said to be a drop in staff turnover, retention of skills, a decrease in absenteeism, and an increase in job satisfaction. That is absolutely true; those are all benefits of flexible working hours. Those same benefits also have the potential to be monetary benefits for businesses, because they mean businesses keep their staff. So why would businesses not be flexible without having legislation to require that? Businesses are wary of further legislation and compliance costs, which is not surprising, because even just lately amendments to a number of Acts have increased business compliance costs: the Health and Safety in Employment Act, the Holidays Act, and the Employment Relations Act. Businesses are wary; they are very wary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI found it interesting to read some of the opinions of Nikki Dines of Simpson Grierson\u2019s employment law group, because she gave some insights into the potential for problems. While the rationale for the bill may be commendable\u2014and I have already mentioned that\u2014there are some serious issues with it both from a legal and economic perspective. The employer can refuse the application only if it cannot reasonably be accommodated on one or more of the following grounds: inability to reorganise work amongst existing staff, inability to recruit additional staff, detrimental impact on quality, detrimental impact on performance, insufficiency of work during the periods the employee proposes to work, and planned structural changes. But it does not matter if there is a burden of additional costs on employers or any detrimental effect on their ability to meet customer demand. Where an employer fails to give proper consideration to flexible working requests, the employee may be awarded compensation, and we are told there is no cap on the level of compensation. That really is a potential worry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThis bill looks to increase compliance costs for employers significantly. It seems to be yet another proposal that could lead to uncertainty and increase costs for employers. But let me remind members again that I am in favour of flexible working hours for employees. I can tell members that that happens without legislation requiring it\u2014but let us see. I ask members to wait for another year and see exactly what is collected and collated, for we will not decide today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI have another example of a workplace, in which a colleague of mine tells me there is grave concern. It is a legal practice with 15 employees, eight of whom, by having young children, would qualify for the flexibility provisions. This legislation is a concern to them. I say in conclusion that I am hopeful we will actually get some sense out of this issue next year, and we will know how to vote then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u00223673984ce38844ed87461dcd1d40f686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223673984ce38844ed87461dcd1d40f686\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on the consideration of the report on the Employment Relations (Flexible Working Hours) Amendment Bill. Like others, I want to thank Sue Kedgley for bringing the bill to Parliament and to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. It was indeed a committee where we had interesting and healthy debate on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis bill was supported in principle by many organisations and many submissioners, including family-friendly employers, union organisations, women\u2019s organisations, professional women\u2019s organisations, and others who are increasingly concerned about how we balance our work and family responsibilities. Balancing work and home life is a growing concern for both employers and workers. Improving that balance can help with employee recruitment and retention\u2014as others have said\u2014it can match people, who would not otherwise work, with particular jobs, and it benefits families and communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe have to face the fact that the world has changed. The simple facts are that there are now more women, more dual-income families, and more sole parents in the workforce, and that is amplifying the potential for conflict between work and family life. In addition, New Zealand has an ageing population so more of the workforce is likely to be involved in caring for elderly parents and wh\u0101nau. Jobs have changed significantly over the past couple of decades. We have moved from a predominance of work in primary industries, to increased numbers of jobs in retail, hospitality, information technology, and finance. Over this period, there has been a growth in non-standard employment such as self-employment, contracting-out, and temporary and casual work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe pattern of working hours has also changed. The trend has been away from the standard full-time working week of 40 hours a week, 8 hours a day between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m., towards either underemployment\u2014that is, where workers cannot get enough hours to make a living in one job so they work two or three jobs\u2014or overwork, where workers are working more than 50 hours a week. Skill shortages exist in some sectors, and there is difficulty, as we know, in retaining skilled workers in many industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0c746e957f45e68ee62133eab854b7\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: There is plenty of evidence that balancing work and family responsibilities is one of the significant pressures that New Zealand families are facing. In the report, Thirty Families \u2013 Work Hours by the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, for example, work hours were a significant problem for workers, their families, and their communities. For many, the hours they were working were simply too long, and expectations had increased that additional hours would be contributed to the employer, without overtime pay. A significant issue for those working long hours was control over their hours. Many felt they had no say and just had to put up with it, regardless of their family circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWe heard two views in the submissions. One was from some employers and employers\u2019 organisations who felt they were being as flexible as possible, and some said that indeed providing any flexibility in terms of the proposed bill would be a significant impost on their business. The other view expressed was the real frustration workers are having in progressing the issue of balancing work and family responsibilities in their workplace. Although some employers have moved with the times, others deny that any move towards flexible working hours is necessary\u2014or if they do agree, they do not want to have it legislated for. I do want to acknowledge here the many employers who have genuinely attempted to recognise that their employees are more than machines, that they come to work as whole people with families and communities behind them, and that they are not there just as robots to deliver for the business, but more often than not are working to make life better for their families and communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI have been a judge for the Equal Employment Opportunities Trust, which has been mentioned in this House in this debate, and its work and life awards for employers who have made innovative progress in their businesses towards implementing work-life balance policies. There are many good examples of that, but I noted during my time as a judge a distinct lack of entries from organisations that employ low-paid workers, manufacturing workers, workers doing shift work in the hospitality and care-giving industries, and, of course, those at the bottom of the heap\u2014for example, cleaners. It became clear to me that organisations that compete for highly skilled staff, such as law firms and universities, could see the benefits of developing family-friendly policies. But often the cleaners, the kitchen workers, and the clerical workers who work in those same firms were excluded from those family-friendly policies. They applied only to those whose skills were in demand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EMany of the employers who submitted to us claimed to have flexible workplaces because they employ part-time and casual workers. I think they are a bit confused about what flexibility means, because they are talking about flexibility for the employer but the employees have no say over that flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d100edfb469549768d69cb054f8a1130\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Most of the people who work part-time want to be part-time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227064e52d799c47c48e6ee2b69899e846\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is simply not true. Participating in the select committee debate was an interesting experience, because Labour does support improving the work-life balance of workers in this country. But the question we grappled with was not whether employers were doing that anyway, as some submitters claimed, because that is not true. There is plenty of evidence that the number of employers who have actually implemented provisions like the ones proposed in the bill is not great. So the question we grappled with in the select committee was whether the legislation proposed could be practically implemented in its current form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThere are many issues to be considered in legislation like this. These include whether workers would have the right to revert to their original hours once their need for flexible hours was considered, and that is a considerable concern for many workers because flexible hours can be used as an opportunity to reduce hours, leaving them without any security in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThere was also the need to renegotiate the many collective agreements where unions have specifically sought to regulate hours to prevent casualisation, and Air New Zealand gave us the example of its 50 collective agreements that would require renegotiation with the unions involved. Many collective agreements have specific full-time hours spelt out, and unions have fought hard to hold on to those provisions against the increasing tide of part-time and casual work. We have already talked in this House about the exclusion of some groups, such as those that have the care and responsibility of older wh\u0101nau. There was a very good submission from one group on the growing problems of an ageing population and the impact on work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThere was the difficulty of making this bill work in practice so that all workers could be treated fairly and it would not operate on a \u201Cfirst in, first served\u201D basis. Consideration needs to be given to this because the workplaces that I am very familiar with jealously guard their rights to fairness in shift and hours allocation. Why is that? Because they are always competing for decent work, for full-time hours, and for a job that will feed their families. I also have an ongoing concern about the highly casualised industries. Their struggle is not for flexible hours but for secure hours and decent work. I know that was not within the ambit of this bill, but without significant protections it would be difficult to see how these workers could benefit, and indeed flexible hours tend to be something to be avoided for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThe select committee did indeed stimulate a healthy and insightful debate, but there is more work to be done, and we welcome that. We want to be sure we can successfully implement the type of flexible work that the bill\u2019s author envisages. Again, I want to thank Sue Kedgley for bringing the bill forward, and I look forward to considering this matter again within the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022efa834d9cb7b4eb19b398d7b9d430072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efa834d9cb7b4eb19b398d7b9d430072\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is very proud that our colleague Sue Kedgley\u2019s bill has been treated so seriously by this House and by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and that further research will be done to make sure that the outcome of the bill is the best possible. I have been listening tonight to the National Party arguments from Wayne Mapp and Jo Goodhew, and they are not very convincing at all; in fact, they are a bit contradictory. They say that things are wonderful in the workplace, that everyone dialogues nicely, that employers dialogue with workers, and that everything is sorted out informally and people do not need anything else. But even if that were the case, why should those members be so frightened of a bill like this, which prescribes procedures? If their view is correct\u2014that the procedures are unnecessary and everything is wonderful\u2014they should not be threatened by the fallback to procedures that this bill provides in case things do not go well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe all know that the whole raft of workplace law we have built up over the years, by both National-led Governments and Labour-led Governments, is for situations in the workplace where everything is not going well and where employers are not acting in the best interests of their workers. As Darien Fenton has pointed out, it depends a bit on the demand for one\u2019s skills. If a person is a cleaner and there seem to be other people around who could take on that person\u2019s job if that person does not do exactly what he or she is told, then the negotiation, the dialogue, does not seem to go on quite as well as it would if that person is well-skilled, those skills are in high demand, and the employer does not want to lose that person. There might then be a bit of flexibility as to one\u2019s work hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESo I think this bill is very important, and will be so for lower-paid workers and less-skilled workers. It will be even more important if we have higher unemployment. We have been quite lucky over the last year or two to have low unemployment, but if we get higher unemployment, then fewer employers, naturally, will be interested in having proper dialogue and flexibility in the workforce. But, actually, as has been pointed out by my colleague and others, it is more efficient for employers to have happy workers. If there is a flexible workforce arrangement, there is less absenteeism, which means that if workers have some important household duties or something to do that concerns their kids, they do not have to throw a sickie all of a sudden and put the employer out. It is all much more planned, and there are structures in place\u2014replacement structures, etc.\u2014so that it does not affect the industry so much. The workers are better workers because they are more motivated. They think they are being treated well and there is less turnover in the workforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAs we all know, one of the major costs\u2014and the National Party goes on and on about compliance costs\u2014of any employer is selecting and training new labour. This will be reduced if we have happy workers. They might stay with an employer all their lives, if we treat them well under this bill. Employers would also keep the experience and skills that are so important to an efficient workplace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is important to point out, as other speakers have, that women tend to suffer more if such procedures as are outlined in this bill are not put in place. They have to scurry around, fitting their other household and childcare duties into a very difficult employment situation. The people whom Darien Fenton talked about\u2014the lower-paid workers\u2014often work very long hours, too. The figure quoted by Sue Kedgley was that a fifth of the workforce works 50 or more hours a week. It is very hard to pay proper attention to one\u2019s family in that situation, and even harder if one does not have flexible work relationships. [Interruption] As my colleague Sue Kedgley just commented, MPs sometimes have difficulty in coping with their family responsibilities, and we should be particularly sensitive to others in the workforce who have similar problems. [Interruption] Peter Brown, who has just interjected, mentioned the cost argument\u2014that somehow this legislation does not cover costs. This is very broad-brush legislation. Sure, it could be tightened up and be more prescriptive in the way that Peter Brown has suggested, but we wanted to put the framework in place at this point, and also get the support of the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI thought that by having such moderate legislation, surely the National Party would support it, along with New Zealand First. But even under the general prescriptions here, if a case goes to an employer and then the appeal system is brought into effect, surely the effect of what the employee is demanding of the employer would take into account the importance of that particular worker to the industry, etc. All the particulars will be taken into account as part of this process, which might reflect on the cost structure for the business. I do not think business people need to worry, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EPeter Brown said that the bill should include those who look after elderly parents as well as young children. Sue Kedgley stated at the time that she agrees. That is something we could extend into the bill as it goes along. Much of the discussion so far has been on the bill\u2019s effect on workers\u2014on their being happier and able to carry out their family duties, etc.\u2014but I think we also have to look very closely at the kids. It does not do kids any favours when their parents work 50 or more hours a week and do not have the flexibility to look after their kids properly. A lot of kids become latchkey kids in this situation. It is not good for their development. They often get into trouble or do not do their homework. All kinds of things happen if parents do not have that flexibility. If the mother and the father are stressed, and the kids can see that they are stressed, it carries over to the kids too and inhibits their proper development. I think this bill will help to alleviate those problems, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAlso, speaking as a male Green MP, having flexible work hours helps the balance between men and women who look after children. The hours apply to men and to women. There is an increasing tendency in society, although it has not gone terribly far yet, for house husbands to take over the care of the kids for a few years, and for men to play a greater role in the bringing up of their children. The arrangements in the bill will enable that flexibility to be perfected much more, and will lead to a more balanced development of children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAs I think a previous speaker pointed out, there are a lot of solo parents around now, and if they have jobs they find it particularly difficult to cater for their children and have flexibility too. Often, solo parents are not in full-time employment, or their employment shifts from time to time. They might be in full-time employment for a period and then not be employed full time, and having an arrangement such as under this bill whereby they can pay attention to their kids, even though they are solo parents, is very important. It will help to address the problem of casualisation that Darien Fenton mentioned. One reason why we have such a degree of part-time work\u2014and some of it is legitimate part-time work, but some of it is forced part-time work or casualisation\u2014is that parents do not have a flexible arrangement guaranteed by legislation and they have to go from part-time job to part-time job. This bill will help to address that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIf members have looked at the Green Party logo, they will see that it has the words \u201CQuality of Life\u201D under it. I think this bill will improve the quality of life for everyone\u2014for male parents, for female parents, and for kids. Having a work-life balance is very important for the quality of life of all of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u002224cd19c03ad04ea9b303262cbeba9994\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224cd19c03ad04ea9b303262cbeba9994\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier): \u003C/span\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Ki te Whare e t\u016B nei, ki a Papat\u016B\u0101nuku kei waho, t\u0113n\u0101 k\u014Drua. Ki ng\u0101 rangatira o Aotearoa, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Ki ng\u0101 hoa o te P\u0101remata t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you collectively. To the House standing here and to the Earth Mother outside, greetings to you two. To the chiefs of New Zealand collectively, greetings. To fellow parliamentarians, greetings, greetings, greetings to you and to us all.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI rise to support the recommendation made by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee to set aside the Employment Relations (Flexible Working Hours) Amendment Bill for 1 year. The select committee has recommended to set it aside for 1 year, in order to examine its real advantages and disadvantages, and to do more research. I certainly wish to examine the advantages and disadvantages\u2014particularly the advantages, given my background in business and my having employed many people over many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EBefore I continue, I make the comment that there is something we should ask about every bill that stands before this House at the moment, particularly given this Labour-led Government\u2019s desire for economic transformation. We need to ask ourselves whether this bill will lift economic growth. Will it lift us up the OECD rankings? Will it increase wages for employees? Will it increase flexibility in working hours? Will it generally do that? Or will it reduce the flexibility needed to grow businesses and lift up our ranking in the OECD? Will it further increase Big Brother Government? Will it further increase bureaucracy? Will it further increase red tape? Those are the questions, both for and against the legislation, that we need to examine over the next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EMy personal opinion is that this type of legislation is unnecessary. I will talk members through its advantages and disadvantages. Firstly, let us examine the purpose of this bill. Its purpose is to amend the Employment Relations Act 2000 to provide employees with young, dependent children the statutory right to request part-time and flexible hours and a framework within which employees can negotiate reduced working hours. It has some key criteria that not many other speakers have alluded to tonight, but they are important none the less. I congratulate Sue Kedgley on some of those key criteria, because they will be important to business people if this legislation comes into force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EFirstly, the legislation can apply only if an employee has been with the same employer for 6 months. That is an important thing, because normally when people negotiate their first employment contract they negotiate flexibility in hours right there and then with their employers. It is important that there is some sort of time frame within which someone can go back to an employer and ask for a change in his or her working relationship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ESecondly, the employee has to have children under the age of 5, or children with a disability. Again, that is a key, important point. The request has to be made in writing, set out the work pattern, and explain how it could be made to work. That is a criterion that I am struggling with, because it will involve more discussion. My experience is that when an employee comes to me to ask for flexible hours, we reach that by discussion. Employers know how their businesses run, and they know what other people they need in their businesses to fill holes in employment. They also know the value of their employees concerned. I understand the need for the request for flexibility to be in writing, but I suggest that in good employment practice people will largely work together on the issue of flexible hours\u2014as I believe they do now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThirdly, the employer must consider the application for flexible hours as soon as possible, and refuse it only when it cannot reasonably be accommodated under prescribed set conditions. It is interesting that we talked about some of the conditions that have been raised, which vary from business to business\u2014the type of environment people are in. Some businesses very much depend on a combination of the skill of employees\u2014as in the legal profession\u2014plus the time frames within which they need to get jobs done. It is not easy to replace some employees, particularly when big financial jobs are coming through. If a lawyer has a particular skill in an area and that lawyer is negotiating a contract\u2014and there are deadlines in multimillion-dollar contracts\u2014those sorts of things cannot deal with the inflexibility of some legislation. Negotiation is required between employer and employee. Those things are important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ELastly, employees have a right of appeal; that is another part of the legislation. Those are the criteria that I believe are reasonable, but I now want to examine the arguments both for and against the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EFirstly, I turn to the arguments for the bill, and a number of those arguments have been made tonight. In recent surveys a majority of employees said that they were working longer hours than previously, that they were feeling under constant stress, that their lives were out of balance, and that they were under significant pressure. I say that that is very much the case with many employers in this country, as well. I do not think there is any difference between employees and employers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003ESecondly, some employees who have children simply give up the struggle and drop out of the labour market because they cannot find ways to combine paid work and the demands of looking after young children. Well, that will happen anyway, regardless of flexible hours. Some men and some women simply cannot deal with the stress of working even flexible hours. I think we need to understand that point, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThe third point is that a number of countries, particularly OECD countries like Germany, Italy, Belgium, and the Netherlands, all provide employees with a legal right to request more flexible working arrangements or to reduce their working hours. There are a number of arguments for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EArguments against the bill are that it is simply more bureaucracy, more legislation, and more Big Brother Government prescription\u2014employers are in business, so employees will do this! I think that is where one of the problems lies in this legislation. There is more Government involvement in the lives of New Zealanders and New Zealand businesses. I often hear it said across the floor: \u201COh, why is there all that bureaucracy? Why is there all that red tape?\u201D. Well, this is more bureaucracy in the making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EThere are 322,519 small businesses out there, which employ 100 people or fewer. Those businesses account for nearly 99 percent of the employees in this country. I suggest to members that by far the majority of those small-business owners know the value of the employee-employer relationship. The fact of the matter is that a small business with one or two people cannot grow its business without having a positive relationship with its employees, and without some form of flexible working arrangements in place. I believe that an argument against the bill is that by far the majority of small to medium sized enterprises treat their employees extremely well, and form relationships with those employees from day one. Many employees are part of the business and treat it as their own, as well, which is fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EDespite that, the problem I have is that there has always been the insinuation from the Government, and in fact sometimes from the Greens as well, that employers are bad, that they are evil, and that they do not care for their staff, for the families of their staff, or for the welfare of their staff. I have to say quite simply, having been an employer of many years standing, that that is not true. Numerous small businesses out there lend money to their employees when they get into strife, give employees additional holidays over and above the legislative requirement, give wages in advance, and allow staff leave to attend their kids\u2019 swimming sports and prize-givings and go on their kids\u2019 school camps. Those events are all important parts of employees\u2019 lives, and of employers\u2019 lives too. Flexibility in employment arrangements happens in hundreds of thousands of New Zealand businesses right now. Believe it or not, businesses do provide flexible working hours as we speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EWomen are a key part of this workforce. As my colleague Jo Goodhew said earlier, there has been a 16 percent increase in the number of women in the workforce in the last 4 years. Having employed many, many women in my lifetime, I know they are fantastic employees. They are dedicated and they want to get ahead. Any employer who cannot form a positive relationship with the women in his or her workforce is on a hiding to nothing. Employers have to form positive relationships and provide opportunities to have an ongoing relationship with their staff. To sum up, I say that we support the review of the legislation over the next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022 data-id=\u00228a06b05d0c60410ebba8d95be7e2520b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a06b05d0c60410ebba8d95be7e2520b\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to rise in support of the interim report of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on the Employment Relations (Flexible Working Hours) Amendment Bill. Along with my colleagues I also thank Sue Kedgley for bringing this bill forward for our consideration. It comes in the context that we in this country have some of the longest hours worked in the OECD. Also, for me, it comes in the context of having in my maiden speech labelled work-life balance as one of the things that I had at the forefront of my mind when coming into Parliament. I really do believe that work-life balance is one of the most important things we face in this country. It is something we must make some progress on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt is within that context that I was very pleased to be able to participate in the discussion in our select committee on this bill and to hear from the many submitters who came forward. I thank the submitters, because obviously much thought had gone into the submissions that were received by our select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to see what I perceived as quite a split coming forward from the submissions we received. It was an interesting split because I perceived that it was business versus the rest of the community. That was very much the nature of the submissions received on this bill. The rest of the community were unions, women\u2019s groups, lawyers and their firms, nurses, supermarket workers, and a whole range of other organisations that came forward to say that they really do believe there is a need for regulation in this area, because of their past experiences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt came down to a debate in the select committee about education versus regulation. But I want to stress that it is not quite as simple as that. Of course, if we were engaged in regulation in this area, we would also need a massive education campaign to sit alongside that. I think that is one of the fundamental issues that everyone in the select committee could agree on\u2014that there is a need for education on what the possibilities are, what the opportunities are, and what the benefits are. Also, there is a need for education for working people so that they feel they have the courage and the information to go forward and make a request of their employer for flexible working hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EOne of the most powerful submissions for me personally came from the Federation of Business and Professional Women. That was one of the submissions that, to me, went outside the feeling of business versus the rest of the community that I was getting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e672ca0c1b4b8994af0b68094b2a53\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: You mean hard-line unionists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296bf42147e5943afa3e271d382d0c64c\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: And I mean women\u2019s groups, and lawyers, and nurses, and supermarket workers, and the list goes on. The member knows the list of submitters as well as I do. Business was the only group that had any concerns to raise about this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe Federation of Business and Professional Women submission was extremely interesting to me, from this perspective. It was an extremely powerful submission. The group\u2019s submitter talked in her oral submission about having interviewed a woman just the previous week for a cleaning job. That is what she did outside of her role of representing business and professional women. She was interviewing this woman who was going for a cleaning job, who in fact was a very successful salesperson. She asked this woman why on earth she was applying for the job as she was over-qualified\u2014if there is such a thing\u2014for it. The woman replied that it was because of the hours and the flexibility that they would offer her. She said she could not use her skills as a salesperson and get that flexibility. This happened just the week before the representative came to see our select committee. I thought it was very powerful example of the sort of wastage\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2e6dc28aae6435691ec01c085e8e006\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: You believe that was true?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5d9c49daf5479ebaa8e7d7692b2758\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do believe it was true, because a submitter told us that. I believe it was true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e2a2d04a1e94c0ba1e8a6df7757334f\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so it must be true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222732a0d095cf4eb987f216a685a19dbd\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY\u003C/span\u003E: I believe the submission made by the Federation of Business and Professional Women\u2014I sincerely do. That was an example of the type of wastage going on in our economy because of not using people\u2019s skills properly when we do not have that flexibility in our workplaces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt is something that is quite personal for me as well, because, as a working woman with young children, I rely, and my family relies, very heavily on flexibility in my husband\u2019s working arrangements for our situation to actually work. So I fully understand what it means for families. In that context I add that this is not just an issue for women\u2014it is an issue for families and for the men in those families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EThe new work-life balance that is being demanded is sought by people. I share the concerns raised by my colleague Mark Gosche earlier. I am concerned at hearing some sort of feigned outcry from the community about 24-hour childcare when that is what our economy requires. It is no big secret; it should not be shock and horror. This is the type of environment in which we all live and thrive, and we need the support services to go with that. As a working mother I reiterate that flexible working hours are a key to our lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EAnother issue that came up in the discussion with the select committee was the idea that somehow the market would just sort this out. I want to talk about that a bit because I think we need to face up to the myth that lies behind it. We went through a very bad experiment in the 1990s when the market was going to fix all sorts of things\u2014but it never did. Apprenticeship schemes, etc., all went by the by. I think we really need to front up to the discussion about whether the market will provide. My colleague Darien Fenton alluded to this and talked about her real-life experience in this area. If one works in an area that is deemed to be low status\u2014and I very carefully say \u201Cdeemed\u201D to be a low-status area rather than \u201Cis\u201D a low-status area\u2014then one\u2019s ability to get one\u2019s employer to agree to flexible working hours is much more limited than it is for someone in a high-status job. That is what we are left with if we leave it up to the market. The market makes a call on low-status and high-status jobs, so we have to face up to that reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EIt was within that context that I was therefore quite surprised to hear that many of the submissions made to the select committee were from women in high-status, high-paid jobs. Women lawyers came along to our select committee and said that they do not have the sort of flexibility in their work that they need to make their working lives and their family lives work for them. Nurses and teachers also came along to the select committee. These are professional women who understand exactly how they could work. They could describe to our select committee exactly how, within their work, which they understood very well, they could work, but they could not get agreement to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EWe have this argument about regulation versus education, and we have 12 months to have a good look at it and see which way it falls. I must note that the bill has stimulated healthy debate at the select committee. However, we do have agreement on some key fundamental points. The need for flexible working hours is agreed. Hallelujah, we have got there! So we agree that it needs to happen, but we need to have more consideration of the mechanism. A fear expressed by many of the submitters who came forward to us was that they would have to do something they could not possibly do, and I think some members opposite are reflecting that. They think that this bill forces employers to do something they cannot possibly do. However, I note that under this bill an employer can turn down an application when it cannot be reasonably accommodated on one or more of the following grounds: \u201C(i) inability to re-organise work among existing staff: (ii) inability to recruit additional staff: (iii) detrimental impact on quality: (iv) detrimental impact on performance: (v) insufficiency of work during the periods the employee proposes to work; and (vi) planned structural changes.\u201D So members opposite would find, if they took the time to read the context of the bill, that the sorts of fears they have raised about it are unfounded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003EI look forward to this bill coming back so that we can have a look at what has happened in the previous 12 months. However, while I am on my feet I will take the opportunity to do a bit of myth-busting. Some members opposite have taken the opportunity to talk about flexible working hours being a business compliance cost. I feel very sad that the idea of flexible working hours is viewed by the Opposition as being a business compliance cost. I also want to bust the myth that somehow New Zealand has a high level of business compliance costs, because that is clearly not true. Why does this country keep topping the reports on ease of business in OECD countries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0558d35098b4fea98f4c68d28e002b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0558d35098b4fea98f4c68d28e002b1\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E One is not surprised that this bill is promoted by the Green Party member. This bill, according to the Green Party member, is about flexible working hours. It is so indicative of the Labour and Green Party members, who have a concept that to cater for flexible working hours we must have an inflexible mechanism to enforce it. They simply cannot equate flexibility with letting individuals work out a solution that is flexible enough for both parties. They have never really learnt to trust employers and employees in the 21st century to work out a mechanism that is flexible for both parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESue Moroney started her speech by saying that as a working mother she understands the need for flexible working hours. My challenge to the Labour member is, No. 1, whether we are looking at extending these flexible working hours to members of Parliament who have dependent or disabled children so that they will come to Parliament to participate in the debating chamber or at select committees only when it is flexible for those members; and, No. 2, will the Labour Government start giving instructions to the Parliamentary Service that cleaners who come in to tidy up the parliamentary complex will be able to come at hours that are flexible\u2014that are convenient to the cleaning contractors? Until the Government and Green Party members are able to practise what they lecture, I once again caution them against putting in a very inflexible framework for, largely, the small businesses of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELabour members ask what the big deal is, as employers can turn down a request from employees for flexible working hours. But that is the point. Small-business proprietors are doing that right now. Of course staff can make requests. When 86 percent of businesses in New Zealand are classified as small businesses, which means they employ only five employees or fewer, no one can tell us that the boss and the employees do not talk to one another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAny successful business proprietors can tell the public that the only way their business can be successful is to have good staff working for them, and to have the staff and the proprietor working as a team. I am talking about busting the myth, perpetually believed by Labour and the Greens, that all employers are there to abuse staff, and not to care about employees\u2019 welfare. I find it very strange when Labour members say that employees go to work because they want to take home money to support their families; those members never mention that employees go to work because they want to be part of a team to grow a successful business. On the other hand, Labour members always declare that the reasons people go into business is not because those people want to take a risk and improve their own economic situation, but that their first objective is to provide employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI can tell members that the motivation for any people to go into business is actually the same as the motivation for workers\u2014to better their individual position. But employers also understand that for business to be successful they must look after their employees. It is only a tiny minority of short-sighted employers who believe they do not have to look after their staff. So why should we support a bill that sends another signal that employers are somehow not to be trusted? We are in the 21st century where people do know their choices and do make them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI would like to take issue with some of the examples that were offered by the previous speaker. My friend was a very successful partner in a medium-sized law practice, and, yes, she decided that the structure of the practice did not really suit her. There was no big hassle, and she started her own legal practice. So individuals in that position, with a skill base, do make choices and know the consequences\u2014the advantages and disadvantages\u2014of being part of a larger entity or of starting their own business. They do not need legislation that requests them to put a formal proposal to their employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ECan members imagine they are corner dairy proprietors, and suddenly one of their part-time staff has come in and put in a formal request to work, maybe on Mondays and Wednesdays. The only means by which they can be turned down is for the proprietor to come back with a business case, with some sort of spreadsheet, and then, after negotiations with other employees, to ask whether a case can be made, formally to turn down the proposal. That is nonsense. Flexibility for one employee may mean imposing inflexibility on another employee. What happens when one of the five employees in an entity wants some sort of flexibility to suit his or her own work and life situation? What does that mean for the other employees in the same entity? I say that in this modern world most people in those situations have come to a realisation that they can help each other out. Six people in an entity can talk to each other, and manage to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe National Party is supporting this interim report, but I personally think we should encourage the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee to take as long as it likes to conduct proper surveys. If this bill does not get reported back to Parliament, I do not think it will be a bad thing. I think a lot of modern enterprises and small-business entrepreneurs of New Zealand would benefit from a Parliament that resists the temptation to impose legislation on them at every possible moment. So I ask the Green member to reflect, and send out some messages to say that she does treat individuals equally and that she does not hold on to the old belief of \u201Cus versus them\u201D. I certainly see in most businesses that proprietors know that having a good team of staff is the ingredient for success in business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002201ab46e2f4c94fef890cb7ffe761a9ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201ab46e2f4c94fef890cb7ffe761a9ee\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Deputy Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c3eef21b80746fa85c018bed511c1ed\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sue Kedgley, is there a matter you wish to raise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f33c9b1b568c4804b178f7b5c9471ad5\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to respond very briefly to some of the comments that have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df97906834747bbb47c2917938d2be0\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e686c22672342f2b64c42c4ded25e43\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I thought it was an unlimited debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e72d22b91544cf1bad52a009b94b05d\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. There is no right of reply as such, but, of course, you may seek leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278fa2c68961840a18b4f20c21c62fe52\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to respond very, very briefly to some of the comments that have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2822a51469640818c84c94597242a8f\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad552d93100a47ef83d9dfcb0db3bc8b\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members for giving me leave to speak very briefly. I know there are some other very important members\u2019 bills that we are keen to debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI want to thank members who have participated in the debate. I particularly thank Chris Tremain, Darien Fenton, Sue Moroney, Mark Gosche, and Hone Harawira for their thoughtful contributions. I believe that in our heart of hearts we all know that the need for flexible working hours is a hugely important issue. In our heart of hearts we know that the \u201Cwork, work, work\u201D culture, with its excessively long working-hours, that we have here in New Zealand\u2014it is well documented\u2014is causing incredible stress and is probably partly responsible for the levels of violence and many other things in our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that the National Party is happy to put more and more people in jail and to build more prisons, but not to do something as simple as support a very modest piece of legislation\u2014one of the least prescriptive pieces of legislation ever to come before this Parliament\u2014to ensure that people with children have a right to request flexible working hours and to reduce the stress in their lives. Hone Harawira spoke eloquently of the \u201Cwork, work, work\u201D stresses and what that is doing to families in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESo I think that in our heart of hearts we know this is a huge social issue. We know we need to do something about it, but what is needed is political will. The problem is that particularly the major political parties in this House hate to do anything to get offside with business, so they are terrified to introduce legislation that some businesses oppose. In fact, the odd thing is that businesses in England, where this legislation has been introduced, have overwhelmingly supported it. It is quite extraordinary that National members keep going on about Big Brother, bureaucracy, dictating legislation, and so on and so forth, as though this is something that has to be imposed on employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI remind members again of some of the surveys that have found overwhelming support by businesses in the United Kingdom for this legislation. In the 2 years the UK has had the legislation it has been found that it has not resulted in increased compliance costs. I have mentioned that. There has been no increase in compliance costs in the United Kingdom. Members can fly off on their next Speaker\u2019s tour and see for themselves, but they will not find that there have been increased compliance costs in the United Kingdom. Nor have people in the UK found any problems with this right. In fact, they found huge benefits for employers. I will give members a couple of points from the surveys: managers of flexible workers rated them as out-performing their traditional full-time colleagues; employers who offer flexibility achieve a rate of more than 90 percent of women returning from maternity leave; 90 percent of employers with flexible working practices think they are cost-effective; 39 percent say that the performance of people with flexible working practices outstrips that of their competitors; there is increased goodwill, increased productivity, lower turnover rates, reductions in staff sickness\u2014shall I go on and on? Where is the problem for business? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe point is that businesses in the United Kingdom went on and on, as have some of the businesses here, saying: \u201COh no, we hate this legislation. It will result in increased compliance costs.\u201D In fact, it has done no such thing. What it has done is increase by 20 percent the uptake in flexible working practices in the United Kingdom. More than a million employees have made the request to work flexibly, and in 90 percent of cases they have been accommodated and it has worked out well. Some Opposition members have gone on and on, asking what would happen with this and what would happen with that. Well, they can turn the request down\u2014it is in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EEmployers have five grounds on which they can turn down a request, and I have already said that I am happy to expand those grounds. I am happy to have another criterion\u2014that of increased compliance costs\u2014for turning down a request. Do members know why I am so happy? Because in the UK there has never been\u2014I think it happened in 1 percent of cases\u2014any grounds for turning a request down. But if members want to put that in the legislation, they can go for it. There is no problem for businesses; it is a win-win. The UK Minister said it has been an outstanding success and it has provided a safety net of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EOne would think that this family-friendly piece of legislation would get cross-party support, in particular from those parties that say they are family-friendly and want to support families. One would have thought that this minimal, tiny, little bit\u2014the right to request flexible working hours if one had children\u2014would be supported especially by members of the National Party, and I think they would if they read the research and realised the overwhelming benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EMy final point is that yes, of course, I agree with New Zealand First and with Mark Gosche that we should extend it to all people who are looking after others\u2014for example, those who have elderly dependants\u2014and ideally we would like to extend it to employees in general. We are very happy to make amendments, as Darien Fenton mentioned, to deal with some of the issues that were raised during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223842a048fc26410291cdb326db2532c7\u0022\u003EResidential Tenancies (Damage Insurance) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b55e2f37ad545708a1ad6b8263d96cd\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000572\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 29 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a6fdc674da48e68ac70e1fffd8fd77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a6fdc674da48e68ac70e1fffd8fd77\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E In the brief 3\u00BD minutes that I have, I would like to finish my speech about the Residential Tenancies (Damage Insurance) Amendment Bill. The aim of the bill is to protect tenants against personal liability for damage caused to a premise when they played no part in causing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EJust quickly before I get into that, I want to look at the current relationship that exists between landlords and tenants under the Residential Tenancies Act. It is a contract at common law. There are a couple of things here that cover both the landlord\u2019s responsibilities and the tenant\u2019s responsibilities. The landlord\u2019s responsibility is, firstly, to provide and maintain the premise in a reasonable condition. Secondly, the landlord is to allow the tenant quiet enjoyment of the premises. Those are a couple of the landlord\u2019s responsibilities. Let us look at some of the tenant\u2019s responsibilities. They are to pay the rent on time, to keep the premises reasonably clean and tidy, and to notify the landlord as soon as any repairs are needed. The most important point here, though, is that one cannot damage or permit damage to be done to the premises, one must inform the landlord of any damage, and, lastly, one must leave the property clean and tidy, and clear of rubbish and possessions, at the end of the tenancy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EIn my opinion the accountability is clear there. If the tenant damages the property, or if the tenant brings friends on to the property who damage the property, the accountability is clear. The law sends the right message. If there is a positive relationship and the tenant damages the property, he or she is responsible for fixing it and putting it right\u2014that person is responsible as the tenant. If we look at what this legislation seeks to do, we see it seeks to protect a tenant against personal liability for major damage, to take away any responsibility from the tenant, and to avoid the tenant coming up with payment for any damage that he or she played no part in causing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI will just give members a quick example of something that happened over the adjournment. I was called to a property in Hastings Street in Napier. The neighbour, in fact, called me to view a tenanted property. We walked up there. There were plates strewn across the road and rubbish all outside the place. The front door had been smashed in. We found out what had happened. The tenant had vacated the property and left two friends in the property with their small child. It was the friends who were responsible for the damage that had taken place in that property. The new law would protect the tenant against personal liability for any major damage that had been caused by his or her friends\u2014a premise that is absolutely crazy. We have a situation where the damage has been caused by the act of the tenant who has brought his or her friends in, and now we are looking to pass legislation that takes any responsibility for that away from the tenant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI personally think that is crazy. The poor landlord is now faced with proving the extent of the damage and the amount of it. The landlord has to prove who is responsible for the damage\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ee37bcf7c1c45b6be1a32c24059854d\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: He is not even there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e0c1e4e6144ac49cebb4d1956b7770\u0022\u003ECHRIS TREMAIN\u003C/span\u003E: He is not even there; it is absolutely crazy. We will now force landlords to take out tenant insurance. Whom will that be passed on to? Probably to the tenant, resulting in an increase in rent. Lastly, it sends absolutely the wrong message to tenants. It tells them not to worry about the property any more, because if they bring their friends on to the property and the friends damage it, well c\u2019est la vie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003EI am totally against this legislation; so is the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u00226261665da50c42a781e315d740ef1c4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226261665da50c42a781e315d740ef1c4c\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the Green Party I welcome the introduction of this bill to Parliament. We will be voting for it, and I hope sufficient other parties will do likewise so that it can proceed to select committee for deeper consideration. I also congratulate Maryan Street on getting a useful member\u2019s bill like this into the House so early in her parliamentary career. I hope it succeeds, whether as a bill in its own right or as part of the broader revamping of the Residential Tenancies Act, which I hope will happen soon. I just hope that Ms Street\u2019s bill does not share the fate of the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill that deals with boarding houses, which sank into the mire of parliamentary process in the Social Services Committee and has never been seen again since it came out of that committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party supports this bill from a fundamental belief that New Zealanders deserve secure and affordable long-term rental accommodation as a valid housing option, and that both tenants and landlords deserve to be treated fairly by the State and by each other. However, we ought to accept that residential tenants are, on the whole, an economically and socially vulnerable sector. Landlords, with admitted exceptions, and insurance companies tend to have considerably more economic power than tenants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOver the years there have been a number of cases in the tenancy tribunal that have resulted in decisions regarding damage to a landlord\u2019s property that have been blatantly unfair to tenants. For example, one of the earliest was tenancy tribunal decision No. 33/87. In that case, when damage was caused by subtenants the chief tenant was found liable by the tribunal, despite having no responsibility whatsoever for the damage caused. Cases of this nature culminated in a District Court appeal from the tenancy tribunal in September 2002, in which Judge MacAskill in the Dunedin District Court specifically suggested legislative change as a mechanism to address what is an obvious injustice in the law. I commend Maryan Street for taking up Judge MacAskill\u2019s observations about the inadequacy of the law in this area and for taking the opportunity of using the member\u2019s bill process to rectify what is a clear inequity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party believes that the principle behind this bill is totally fair. Insurance cover should be extended to include the interests of tenants, not just those of landlords, and tenants should be covered for all situations except damage that they have intentionally caused themselves. One tenant should not be required to pay compensation for damage caused by another for whom they have no responsibility, as can currently occur. Landlords should be required to insure against damage caused to their property by tenants or their subtenants or visitors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis bill does not impose any additional costs on landlords. As I hope members will realise\u2014and, indeed, I have heard some of the National Party members say this\u2014the costs of insuring against tenant liability for damage can be passed on to the tenant by means of rent. Nothing in this bill will stop that from happening. It will not necessarily be an extra cost for the landlord. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhat this legislation proposes is an exemption from the insurance covering tenant liability when damage has been caused intentionally by a tenant. That is simply reasonable and is consistent with other legislative provisions, such as the recovery of a debt incurred as a result of fraud, which is treated differently in law from the recovery of a normal civil debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EHowever, we do have some reservations in the area of the limitation of this provision to intentional damage. What if, for example, damage has been caused unintentionally but by an unlawful act, such as a tenant operating a P lab that explodes in the property, or through a grossly negligent act such as a drunk tenant smoking in bed and passing out and fire taking hold? Should the landlord\u2019s insurance company bear the brunt of the cost of damage caused by such unlawful or grossly negligent acts? These are matters for the Social Services Committee to consider, but I do note that we have some concerns at this stage about this particular aspect of the bill. However, I am sure they can be sorted out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThere is no question that, overall, the bill is sound in principle. It will work to rectify a longstanding injustice, and the Green Party welcomes its introduction. I look forward to what I hope will be a substantial consideration of it by our select committee shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba5a2d4cce38410eb86a2ec04137ff18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba5a2d4cce38410eb86a2ec04137ff18\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E What is said in the whare, or in this case what is said by members of Parliament, is heard by the t\u0101huhu, who hear everything that has been said, everything that has gone before us, and the words of those who are gathered here today. So housing matters have always been of importance to M\u0101ori, whether as owners, tenants, insurance agents, or inhabitants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe current housing profile for M\u0101ori is, unfortunately, not a very pretty picture. Despite the fact that home ownership is a strong aspiration for M\u0101ori people, such a desire is frequently not translated into reality. We are three times more likely to live in rental accommodation than New Zealand Europeans. Currently, 59.7 percent of M\u0101ori people live in households that pay rent, compared with 21.6 percent of non-M\u0101ori. Factors such as higher levels of unemployment, lower personal incomes, strong urbanisation, and concentration in high-cost housing markets like Auckland have all contributed to the disparities that are evident between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori in the housing market. Other factors, such as institutional racism, may account for differences in housing allocation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIn looking at this bill, we must be guided by the high rental environment that tangata whenua inhabit. The M\u0101ori Party will support this bill going to a select committee in order to enable the large number of M\u0101ori who are renting, boarding, and flatting as tenants to be able to have a say. We seek every opportunity for people to participate and for their voices to be heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe are, however, also mindful of the numbers of M\u0101ori who are involved in the housing sector as landlords, investors, and owners. We are aware of key housing networks such as Te Tai Tonga Housing Forum, led by Rakiihia Tau and Tiopira Hape Rauna, who would have considerable experience to contribute to this debate about the universal goal of achieving quality, affordable housing with safe and secure homes. These people must have a say, as well as the tenants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe understand the purpose of the bill as being to amend the Residential Tenancies Act 1986 in order to protect tenants against personal liability for major damage caused to premises that they play no part in causing. The fundamental question, however, must be why we should automatically assume that landlords should therefore be liable for damage caused to premises that they also have no part in causing. The M\u0101ori Party is keen to encourage further discussion on the concept of collective responsibility and ownership, and by this we mean the capacity to care for one another. Putting it simply, who is more likely to know about the damage caused to premises: the landlord, who may not even live in the same town, or the tenant in the next room? We must restore the sense of responsibility as individuals and collectives\u2014as a wh\u0101nau or a group of tenants in a single property who all sit around the same television at night, who contribute to the same food kitty, and who collectively pay the rent. Why could not these same people also pay to protect themselves? That is the question. Although we appreciate that nothing in the bill will prevent landlords from passing on the cost of additional premiums to tenants as part of the rent, could we not see this as an educational process for tenants, particularly our young people, about the value of insurance and of taking responsibility for one\u2019s property and other people\u2019s property? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe final issue that we seek further ideas on in the select committee is the low insurance coverage for M\u0101ori in the housing sector. If there is any doubt of this, one need only look at the nature of the crisis response required after the freak damage created by the floods, earthquakes, and storms of the last few years, such as, in my electorate, the Rangit\u012Bkei and Manawat\u016B floods, the East Coast floods, and the destruction that ravaged through the Bay of Plenty. Indeed, one report in 2004 stated that an incredible 111 of the 141 homes in Whakat\u0101ne that were deemed uninhabitable did not have contents insurance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThose are but some of the issues that we hope can be raised in the ongoing debate around this bill. The provision of quality, affordable housing, particularly for low-income families, is a significant priority focus for the M\u0101ori Party. If this bill can do anything for these families, particularly the 63,000 M\u0101ori families who have been cut out of the Working for Families package, then we will be eager to hear about it. We will support this bill going to select committee to ensure that M\u0101ori views are able to be heard, and we look forward to that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022573faf37b2834fe98ac4cf0daadf1353\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022573faf37b2834fe98ac4cf0daadf1353\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their prior contributions. I think they have all been valuable. I acknowledge Maryan Street for bringing this bill forward. I also thank a constituent of mine when I was the MP for Otago, Warwick Goldsmith, who is a lawyer in Queenstown and who is the source of this bill originally. He wrote to me as a constituent, and as a lawyer, reporting a commentary on the Harrison v Shields and others and Medical Assurance Society New Zealand Ltd decision, whereby, as a prior speaker mentioned, the judge concluded in his comments that: \u201CThe outcome of this proceeding, though in accordance with the law, is unjust.\u201D I think that is the essence of the issue we are dealing with today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIs it just when there is a joint tenancy between tenants to enforce liability on the part of one of the tenants if the place burns down? The present position is that the landlord can, and generally does, insure the property, but when the property burns down the landlord\u2019s insurerFR can exercise a right of subrogation and stand in the shoes of the insured and do what the landlord could do if the landlord was not insured. So the insurance company can effectively force the landlord\u2014who might not want to do anything against the tenant, and might think it is quite an unjust outcome\u2014to sue the tenant to recover the losses that may not have been caused by that tenant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI think that is unfair, and I contrast the position with a family that occupies their own home. The family might occupy their own home and insure it. Their mother might be living with them and it might be the mother\u2019s negligence in leaving the towel next to the heater that causes the fire, but one does not hear in that situation of the insurer exercising rights of subrogation to sue the mother, or the child, or the wife, or the husband who caused the fire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E The insurance premium, of course, is not much different in either situation, yet in the situation of the non - owner-occupied property, the insurer has the opportunity to have, and does exercise, rights of subrogation that would not occur in an owner-occupied situation. Having said that, I do acknowledge that there is something in some of the statements made by Tariana Turia and by the National Party. They suggest we need to take care that we do not cause unnecessary problems in respect of minor damage to premises where perhaps it is appropriate that all tenants share the obligation to make good damage caused by a co-tenant, because they may be able to influence that damage not happening if they have some level of responsibility. I am not sure where the line should be drawn there, and I think it is something that the select committee should look at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat I am clear on is that it is not right in the case of fire that the major risk being insured against by the landlord does not also cover the interests of the tenant. That could be achieved for so small an extra cost and the full amount of that extra cost could be passed on to the tenant. So I think this is a good bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFinally, I will respond to one thing Sue Bradford said. She gave the example of someone falling asleep in bed while smoking and thus causing a fire. She thought that person should perhaps be made liable, but I do not think that person should be. I think the same situation should apply to that person as a tenant as would apply if that person was an owner-occupier, or the mother or child of the owner-occupier, if they were to do the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI think this is a good bill and that there is a need to look at the issue of minor damage. I suggest that this bill should be limited to matters of damage caused by fire so as to avoid the large risk that could cause, perhaps, a $100,000 liability, but those are matters of detail that the select committee can report to the House. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00221151107526dd4c2eb00b72a563670ae3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221151107526dd4c2eb00b72a563670ae3\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I would like to offer my congratulations to Maryan Street on having had her bill drawn from the ballot. I know from my experience in the last Parliament that it is always good to have one\u2019s bills drawn. I had a couple drawn in the last Parliament, one of which, I might mention, is an important constitutional bill to do with property rights. We are now just a few days away from the anniversary of the first reading of that bill, and submissions have yet to be heard by the select committee, so it could be a very long process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThis bill raises a very interesting issue. I am a landlord and I insure the property that I let for my interest in it, which is the replacement value of the property itself and also the value of those contents inside the property that are my property rather than the tenants\u2019 property. Of course, I expect the tenants to insure their own goods inside the house, be they personal clothing, furniture, or whatever. I do that as a landlord because I want to protect my property in the event of it being accidentally destroyed by fire, earthquake, flood, or whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThis bill raises a new issue in respect of damage done to a property by a person who has only a peripheral, if you like, relationship with another joint tenant and who is not actually involved in any shape or form with the cause of the destruction of the property or its damage. For that reason I think it is good for this bill to go to a select committee, and United Future will be supporting it going to a select committee. Like the Hon David Parker, who has just resumed his seat, we support this bill. By the way, I would like to publicly congratulate David on his reinstatement to his various portfolios, and I wish him well in those endeavours in the future. I have not had a chance to offer my congratulations to him personally because he was talking with the media at the time. I believe that the Hon David Parker has a lot to offer this country and this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnited Future will support this bill going to a select committee, and I hope that it will look carefully at the matters raised in relation to physical damage caused to a property. Under a normal tenant-landlord agreement, that sort of damage should result in the tenant being expelled from the property. It would bring the tenancy itself to an end, in any event, under normal contractual arrangements, and the landlord is free to pursue remedies against the tenant for that damage. This bill is about insurance. I think we need to keep those two things in mind and not mix them up\u2014as I believe a couple of earlier speakers have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWith those few remarks I am happy to signal that United Future will vote to send this bill to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u00223178f8fc6c0445ddbf378051e45fdfc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223178f8fc6c0445ddbf378051e45fdfc8\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In my right of reply I want to raise a couple of points, particularly with regard to some of the speeches and media comments that have been made recently around this bill, which have completely got the wrong end of the stick. I thank the member who has just resumed his seat for drawing attention to one of those confusions that has been presented in the public domain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I say that this bill in no way diminishes the responsibility of tenants that exists anyway under the Residential Tenancies Act. Tenants have responsibilities. Under section 40(2)(a) of that Act, they shall not \u201CIntentionally or carelessly damage, or permit any other person to damage, the premises;\u201D. Further to the point that my colleague the Hon David Parker made a moment ago, I want to describe how personal responsibility as a tenant under the Residential Tenancies Act fits with the intention of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill is really about insurance\u2014as Gordon Copeland has just said\u2014and insurance companies know their business. It goes like this: as homeowners, we might pay insurance to cover damage done to our property. Landlords, as I am advised by representatives of the insurance industry, already pay a loading of some 30 percent on top of what ordinary homeowners, who live in the houses they are insuring, would pay by way of premiums. So landlords already pay a 30 percent loading on top of an ordinary homeowner\u2019s insurance. If I burn down my house, which I own and insure accordingly, the insurance company does not come after me to recover costs. If, however, I am a tenant and I burn down the property I am renting, then the insurance company, through its powers of subrogation, is able to come after me to recover costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThat is the thing that Judge MacAskill stated was patently unfair in the Dunedin case. I cite that case, because it was revisited in a brief item on Television One last night. The mother of the young man interviewed in that programme, who is now overseas, said that he was her son and that she had contacted me when she heard that this bill was in the offing. She said that her son was a second-year university student and he did not have sufficient belongings to have a household contents insurance policy. That situation is typical of many students, and of many people who are low-income earners or beneficiaries and who would have few belongings to insure. For a period of 4 years he was pursued by the insurance company through the District Court and the High Court, and finally he had a debt of $67,000 plus interest to pay to the insurance company. He was absent from the house at the time the damage was caused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThis bill would simply put tenants on the same footing as homeowners. Why should insurance companies get it both ways? They get an additional loading from the landlord on premiums for properties they own and properties they rent out. If insurance companies are then to go after tenants for the recovery of costs, they are getting it both ways. That is not fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E The other point I need to stress is that in my consultation with insurance representatives there has been an assessment to say that were there ever to be any increases to insurance premiums as a result of this bill\u2014and that is by no means an instance of cause and effect\u2014then the increase is likely to be closer to $10 per annum than it is to $100 per annum. So I suggest that if insurance companies seek to increase premiums, they are simply using this bill as an excuse to do so. Insurance companies should operate for tenants in the same way as they operate for other customers of their policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d6c916eb22844cceaf64f33f1e34f52d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Residential Tenancies (Damage Insurance) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000614\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022588f9aac0e6b49a686484ccb1e953b13\u0022\u003EHuman Tissue (Organ Donation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002281957918fb8041cd8ecf9d06e6106bb5\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u00226e9719dcb8614c1b81af68afbc0e0795\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e9719dcb8614c1b81af68afbc0e0795\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Human Tissue (Organ Donation) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. It gives me great pleasure to speak to the first reading of this bill, and at the appropriate time I intend to move that it be considered by the Health Committee. I say to my colleagues that there are many examples of laws passed in the House that improve outdated legislation, make the lives of New Zealanders easier, or make the work of Government more efficient. But bills that can claim to improve the quality of life or save the lives of New Zealanders are few and far between. This bill is one of them. I would like to acknowledge Andy Tookey, who has lobbied for change for over 4 years. This is Andy Tookey\u2019s bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe Human Tissue (Organ Donation) Amendment Bill, when passed into law, will allow for an opt-on, informed consent register where individuals can indicate which organs they wish to donate, and can elect whether the organs are for therapeutic use or for the purposes of medical educational research. There is provision in the bill for those people who wish to register a clear instruction that they do not wish to be an organ donor under any circumstance. The bill also allows for registered donors to change their minds and opt off at any stage. This can be done in writing or orally in the presence of a witness. The bill also, importantly, allows for the wishes of the organ donor to be paramount, and because the informed consent process is rigorous, this means the donor\u2019s wishes are clear, witnessed, and have legal status. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe bill makes provision for both brain-dead and non-beating heart donors, whereby the organs are removed after circulation has ceased. Importantly, provision is also made for public education regarding organ donation. Countries with established organ donor registers that have resulted in an increase in organ donors link their success directly to education and publicity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe call for change has been evident for over 4 years. In 2002 Andy Tookey and 1,169 others presented a petition to Parliament that requested a review of organ donation practices. The Health Committee tabled reports in November 2003 and October 2004 that requested urgent action to improve New Zealand\u2019s organ donor shortage and provided information on how an organ donor register might work. Our donor rates have dropped further since the Health Committee reported back to Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EContributing to the problem is the fact that there are fewer brain-dead patients as a result of medical interventions, and fewer people have suffered brain injuries and brain haemorrhages. There is also a greater demand for organs. The threshold to go on a waiting list has been lowered, and organ transplantation is now an option for more and more illnesses, for which it was not contemplated a decade ago. New Zealand is facing an epidemic in diabetes, with the numbers of people on renal dialysis and those requiring kidney transplants set to increase dramatically. The number of people who need a liver transplant is expected to double over the next decade due to liver disease that will result from the 25,000 people with chronic hepatitis C and the 50,000 people with chronic hepatitis B infections. Since 1998 the New Zealand Liver Transplant Unit waiting times have doubled, and the waiting list mortality rate is now 32 percent. There are fewer transplant operations being done; the 2004 figure of only 105 was the lowest since 1996. Over 350 people are currently on a waiting list for organ donation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EKidney dialysis costs between $22,000 and $45,000 per year per patient. The savings to the health budget from performing kidney transplant operations is considerable. In 2004, 1,770 patients underwent renal dialysis, and 43 percent of those patients were M\u0101ori, Pacific Island, or Asian. M\u0101ori are overrepresented in those statistics, but for cultural reasons they are reluctant to be donors. When it comes to tissue matching ethnicity does matter and in organ transplants M\u0101ori are under-represented. I hope that M\u0101ori, as a result of public education and debate amongst themselves, will consider becoming donors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIt has been estimated that one organ donor can save the lives, or improve the quality of life, of between seven and 10 people. Clearly, even a small increase in organ donation rates would save the country in both human and financial costs. We therefore urgently need to raise the organ donor rate in New Zealand. The number of organ donors in New Zealand\u2014only 40 in 2004\u2014was one of the lowest in the Western World, but last year it dropped to just 29. That equates to around 6.7 donors per million of population. As a comparison, Spain, at the other end of the scale, has 39 donors per million of population, the USA has 22, the UK has 13, and Australia has 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIt has been shown that donor rates can be improved by ensuring that all possible potential donors are identified, that contact is made with the donor\u2019s family in an appropriate way, and through enhanced public education. That has been the experience of South Australia, which has had a voluntary opt-on organ register since 2000. In 2004 its donor rate was 20 per million, which is double that of the Australian-wide donation rate of only 10 per million. Last year, because of medical intervention in brain injury patients, which resulted in fewer brain-dead patients, the rate dropped to 13 per million, but this was still double New Zealand\u2019s rate. South Australia links its success to a team approach of identifying donors, working with families, and having a consent register that gives clarity to the donor\u2019s wishes. The model uses medical donor advisers\u2014intensive care - trained doctors\u2014who work with specially trained organ donor coordinators. Importantly, they work as a team. The success of the South Australian model is such that Western Australia and Queensland are adopting it as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EWith the proposed new Human Tissue (Organ Donation) Amendment Bill, which provides for the opt-on organ donation register and a public education programme, there is a very real expectation and hope that the vast majority of organ donors, because of the process involved when signing up, will inform their family and make their wishes and intentions crystal clear. I believe the organ donor register will help grieving families and the intensive care team by providing clarity in an emotionally charged and fraught situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EBy voting for the bill to go to the select committee, members will be supporting the vast majority of New Zealanders who also want change. There is growing evidence that members of the New Zealand population are not happy about the ability of others to veto their wishes to be donors. In 2004 Colmar Brunton ran a poll asking that very question\u2014whether family members should be able to veto one\u2019s wish to be a donor. A resounding 80 percent said no, they should not. New Zealanders want autonomy over their bodies in death as they have in life. The proposed Organ Donor Register will serve this purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI say to colleagues that I have been heartened by the positive feedback from New Zealanders, and by comments made in newspaper editorials supporting this bill. The \u201Ctick a box\u201D licence is not informed consent and is meaningless. In the face of declining organ donor numbers internationally, there is a steady stream of countries implementing organ registers. In the USA, 43 states have a law stipulating others cannot override donors\u2019 wishes, and so do some 26 European countries. Some countries have presumed consent registers where everyone is presumed to be a donor and must physically opt off if they do not wish to be. I urge all members not to invent the wheel but to let all those countries that do well in organ donation become our model for a better system that would not only respect individuals\u2019 wishes and be kinder to grieving families but would save the lives of those who would die needlessly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI have canvassed the opinions of intensive care doctors and transplant surgeons who have concerns about a donor register. I totally respect the important work they perform in the most difficult of circumstances but I believe this matter should be democratically debated in the Health Committee. I welcome the comments of colleagues in the debate. The Human Tissue (Organ Donation) Amendment Bill has been drafted so that it is a vehicle that can be amended and refined. I urge members to vote for the first reading of this bill so New Zealanders can have that debate and input at the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002260c35da759ac4a4684c45cc95135d257\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260c35da759ac4a4684c45cc95135d257\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Labour will happily support Dr Jackie Blue\u2019s Human Tissue (Organ Donation) Amendment Bill going to a select committee, and I congratulate her and the co-author, Mr Andy Tookey, on the efforts they have made to get us as far as this. We have reservations, and I shall come to them, but before I do so it seems to me appropriate to say that from my knowledge of organ donation\u2014which is modest but increasing\u2014the member who has just resumed her seat has pretty much canvassed the issues. I think she has canvassed them fairly, and I want to acknowledge her contribution and thank her for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI shall certainly not be repeating international comparisons and other matters. Instead of that, it seems to me that my contribution is best limited to mentioning a few things to do with where we are heading as a Government and how the Health Committee may wish to manage the bill when it comes before it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe Government has, of course, its own initiative in respect of a register. It was a pre-election position for us. Indeed, before the last election a policy was developed for that purpose. I came upon the policy not as the Minister of Health but as the Minister of Transport, because there was hope, at some stage, that we would be able to use existing registers to save a little bit of money. It turns out that the savings are not as we had hoped they would be. That was the point at which I came upon the issue and the good and bad aspects of it. Certainly, the Government joins with the member\u2014and I am sure any other member of this House\u2014in saying that anything that can be reasonably done to improve the organ donation rate of this country across a variety of organs, for the reasons that the member has laid out, is to be supported and we certainly support it strongly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EAs to timing, I do not actually know when this human tissues bill, which the Government has in mind to replace the Human Tissue Act 1964, will be introduced into the House, but I do know that it will not be long. I suspect that in about 4 or 5 weeks Cabinet will again look at the next part of the process of getting this bill prepared for introduction, and it is my hope that it will be introduced and, if possible, passed in the 2006 calendar year. We shall see. That therefore influences perhaps\u2014though it is for the select committee to decide\u2014how the committee manages the legislation when it comes before it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThere was a time when I was in Opposition that I was annoyed by the lack of progress on animal welfare legislation. I wrote animal welfare legislation\u2014or, more honestly, had it written for me by the person who had written the Government\u2019s version of the legislation, which the Government had then not proceeded with\u2014and like the member, Dr Jackie Blue, I won a ballot and introduced it. As is the case for the member, the Government then said it had legislation coming along, too. In that particular instance, the Government changed its mind and decided that discretion was the better part of valour. In the end, it was good legislation, and it is on our statute book now. The Government bill of the day took precedence because it was broader and because\u2014frankly\u2014it was a little more modern. It may be\u2014although I do not want in any way to be seen to influence the select committee\u2014that the select committee decides on a similar approach. That is up to it, but in any case my office would happily advise the select committee on the progress of the Government\u2019s bill any time the select committee wishes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI hope a range of opinions will be forthcoming; I actually have no doubt that that will be the case. I am sure the aforementioned Mr Tookey will be interested, and I am sure the other person who was quoted with him in the New Zealand Herald on Monday, the vice-president of the Australia and New Zealand Intensive Care Society, Dr Peter Hicks, along with other intensivists, will be in front of the Health Committee. They will want the committee to take part in a very serious and interesting debate that the member herself has referred to on the issue of the primacy of the individual to have a say over what happens to his or her body after death. It is an issue that is played out in cremation and autopsy, and it is now about to be played out in organ donation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe Government has reservations about that aspect of the member\u2019s bill and wants to put those on the table now. Government members are very happy for the select committee to examine the detail. We are particularly happy for the select committee to look at international evidence. As committee members look at all of the international evidence in Europe, and so on\u2014as the member has already alluded to\u2014I ask them also to please contemplate looking across the Tasman, where, I understand, Australia is now beginning to have experience of this kind of legislation. I ask them to try to divine what it is about a register that makes it work or not work. There is the possibility, as the member suggested in her remarks, that it is the surrounding education that matters. That is to say, I ask members not to go for the thing that is easy to do\u2014to get the register up and say that that is it, and that they have done their bit\u2014but to please work out what it is that makes some countries\u2019 registers more successful than others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003ECertainly, our organ transplant rate is amongst the lowest in the Western World. In many aspects of our health system we are usually in the top half of any group of countries. In this particular measure, we are second to bottom, according to my figures, with Australia coming in last. So we do have an issue, quite apart from the fact that we have the epidemic of kidney and perhaps liver complaints coming on, for the reasons that the member has pointed out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThose are my remarks. We want to support the legislation. I personally offer to the member my acknowledgment of, and congratulations on, her work. It is a really good example of members\u2019 legislation in action. We are delighted. We have serious reservations about aspects of the legislation. The Government has its own legislation coming forward, and it may be that the two bills could or should be merged. I ask the select committee members, when they are deliberating on the bill to please\u2014for my sake, as well as for the sake of the rest of the country\u2014pay close attention to what they think are the key drivers behind organ donation rates in other countries; what cultural or educational programmes, for example, what other influences, exist in those other countries that result in such a great disparity in the organ donation rates, and that have ours running second to bottom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022274ad878297b484092ea14eafb3308ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022274ad878297b484092ea14eafb3308ac\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the intent of this bill and will support its passage to select committee. We must congratulate Dr Blue and Mr Tookey on their efforts to increase the awareness of organ donation, and on their bill that together they have brought to the House. In New Zealand First, we are very aware that those countries that have followed this very same line have found that organ donation rates did not increase significantly. I was interested to read in the New Zealand Herald recently that doctors believed that this bill is unworkable and they intend to oppose it for a whole variety of reasons, which we will, no doubt, find out over the next few weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E However, by voting the bill through to the select committee the public of New Zealand will have the opportunity to comment on the bill and suggest appropriate amendments, which we need them to do. It is a fact that donor rates are declining internationally, and the New Zealand rate of organ donation is no exception to this trend. Fewer organ transplants are being carried out here, for a whole variety of reasons. So it is not only a New Zealand problem; it is an international one. As the Minister has said, all countries are looking at ways to improve the rate of organ donation, and this type of legislation may be one of the ways that helps to raise the profile of organ donation and, perhaps, result in an increase in various organs for donation. We know that the 2004 figure was very low, as it has been in many years, and the Minister has said that our rate is among the lowest in the Western World. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe were pleased in New Zealand First to see that the bill discusses setting up an opt-on register. We believe that most people, when they tick the donor box on the driver-licensing application, believe they will be a donor, but this is actually not the case, unfortunately. There is no link between the land transport and the health databases. So one must wonder why people are asked during the driver-licensing process about becoming a donor, when their decision cannot be enforced. The proposed register in this bill allows people to indicate which organs they wish to donate and whether these donations can be for therapeutic use, or used for medical education or research. We say that people need to be aware of the necessity of communicating their wishes for donation to their families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EI note that a national donor register would make this unnecessary, but it still can come as a shock to a grieving family that their loved family member wishes this course of action to occur. I am very aware, too, that at this point in time family members can and do overrule the dying family member\u2019s wish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EAligned to the rate of organ donation is the need for further education of the public in this area. People do need to know more about organ donation and the uses various organs can be put to. Perhaps this bill may lead to increased donor awareness and give people the right to have their wishes respected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, research from overseas indicates that this type of legislation has not resulted in significant increases in donor rates, but we must acknowledge that some action is better than no action. I am reminded of the saying that failure is not the worst thing in the world, the very worst thing is not to try. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe medical ethics surrounding organ donation will need to be carefully explored during the select committee process. We must be very clear about these, as the grieving family definitely has rights too. Hopefully, the medical profession will be participating in the select committee process to guide our deliberations in this area. New Zealand First acknowledges that this bill is well meaning, and there are issues surrounding organ donation that do need some clarification and public discussion. So we will be most interested to hear the views of the submitters to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022492c9150886745f1aef4b0cdde1449a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022492c9150886745f1aef4b0cdde1449a5\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party would like to congratulate Dr Jackie Blue and Andrew Tookey on bringing this important issue to the House. It is really only those families with family members who require organ donation who know just how important this bill is. I think it must be terrifying to be someone like Andrew Tookey. He has a child who, he knows, will need an organ transplant, and he knows that there were only 29 organ donors last year. He knows too that there are literally hundreds of people waiting\u2014I think about 350 people in New Zealand are waiting for a transplant; they are waiting mainly for kidneys but also for other organs\u2014that some of them are dying because they cannot get an organ, and that their lives would have been saved if one had been available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI think the key issue in this whole debate is the fact that more than 1 million New Zealanders have indicated on their driver\u2019s licence that they are willing to donate one of their organs, yet only 29 people were donors last year. Why is there a discrepancy? What is going on? When more than 1 million New Zealanders say they are willing to donate an organ, why do we have one of the lowest rates of organ donation in the world? Of course, as the Minister has indicated, it is an issue we must address because we will need more and more organs, particularly kidneys, if the epidemics of type 2 diabetes and obesity, etc. continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that Andy Tookey brought this issue to Parliament about 3 years ago, I think. The Health Committee considered it and wrote a report. We had a whole lot of recommendations, and basically the Government turned down most of them. I suspect that, really, this bill is implementing a number of our recommendations\u2014for example, the establishment of a national donor register to replace the current driver\u2019s-licence system. I personally feel frustrated at the length of time this has taken. We discussed this issue, and all members on the Heath Committee agreed that it was urgent and that it was a priority, yet nothing seems to have happened. So I am absolutely delighted that this bill will force the Health Committee to deal with the issue. I hope that we can deal with it as expeditiously as possible, because, frankly, I am frustrated at the seeming lack of action despite the petitions and the recommendations that we have already made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe have to respect cultural values. That must be inherent in the bill. We have to incorporate tikanga M\u0101ori. We have to acknowledge that wh\u0101nau have a very significant role. We have to find a way to accommodate all of that. Yes, concerns have been raised about whether the wishes of the donor should be able to be overturned by the family. We will have to wrestle with those issues, and we will hear submissions on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe other problem is that at the moment it is not clear what a request on a driver\u2019s-licence application form exactly permits. It states: \u201CWould you be willing to donate organs in the event of your death?\u201D. As Barbara Stewart has pointed out, what does this mean\u2014for what purpose? Would it be for a therapeutic purpose? It could be interpreted as giving permission for one\u2019s organs to be used for medical research and education, which some people may not be happy about, at all. So, frankly, the driver\u2019s-licence system, as we all agreed many years ago, does not work, and we need to scrap it. We need to set up an organ donor register, and we need much more publicity. Those are the sorts of things that are proposed in this bill\u2014and were proposed to the Health Committee a number of years ago\u2014and we hope that this time it will result in the select committee, or the Government, coming up with legislation that will address the situation and we will not have 2 or 3 more years of delay. The Green Party is extremely happy to be supporting this member\u2019s bill, and congratulates Jackie Blue and Andy Tookey on their work in bringing it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022225e3465f8d147adae663000644a3f72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022225e3465f8d147adae663000644a3f72\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E It is not unusual for us to receive calls regarding the deaths of family members. Two days ago I got a call that a whanaunga of mine not in her 60s yet, with a history of diabetes, had passed away. Our people are overrepresented in cases of diabetic renal failure, with rates up to 10 times those of non-M\u0101ori. One of the greatest tragedies of our time is that the rate of organ donation to prolong the lives of so many of our whanaunga is low. A statistical analysis by the National Transplant Donor Coordination Office showed that only six M\u0101ori families consented to organ donation between 1988 and 1996, from a total of 290 families. Given the prevalence of kidney disease in our population and potential issues around tissue matching, this low rate of organ donation seriously affects M\u0101ori people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E We are very aware that the current demand for tissue-compatible M\u0101ori organs exceeds current supply. This is a huge issue for our communities, and it is a dialogue that the M\u0101ori Party very much wants to continue amongst our people. We welcome and will seek further opportunity for meaningful debate around how health and other professionals deal with the removal, retention, and return of body parts, and with organ donation. We mihi to Jackie Blue, for her courage, and to that member and to Andy Tookey for their initiative in trying to address the donor shortage problem in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EBut the bill being discussed here today goes far further than many of our people are willing to consider. Many M\u0101ori are very uncomfortable with the concept of organ donation following death\u2014the t\u016Bp\u0101paku is tapu, and to interfere with it in any way is abhorrent to our culture. Human tissue organ donation is a massive issue for us, and it raises huge questions about issues of protection, informed consent, tangata whenua control of information and medical processes, access to information and medical care, and, most of all, cultural respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe issue of the removal of body parts without seeking informed consent has a heavy history for M\u0101ori. Controversy arose in 1991 regarding the removal of organs from M\u0101ori bodies either to determine the cause of death or for research or transplant purposes. Some cases dated back to 1963. In many cases the removals were not necessary to determine the cause of death, as, indeed, I spoke about last night in reference to the Coroners Bill. The practice broke tapu and breached M\u0101ori cultural protocols, and many wh\u0101nau were traumatised, suffering unacceptable delays before the t\u016Bp\u0101paku were returned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI raise another way of looking at this issue. It is one that the M\u0101ori Party has been talking about in our communities, given that people spoke so strongly against the bill when we presented it to them. We raised the issue of live transplants between wh\u0101nau members. That actually seemed to catch on with our people. They were quite accepting of the idea that it is really important that we take responsibility within our wh\u0101nau to ensure the wellness of our wh\u0101nau and that we give life back to our own. Despite the fact we are not voting with Jackie tonight, I thank her, because it is probably not an issue we would have otherwise discussed. I thank her for raising this legislation and, in a way, for creating the opportunity for us to take the issue back to our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EEthnicity is said to be an important aspect in respect of tissue matching, but I tell members of a recent situation when a wh\u0101nau were looking for a live donor amongst themselves. In fact, the only match was the P\u0101keh\u0101 sister-in-law. The transplant took place, but it was not one of the whakapapa family who gave the donation. There are some very important stories for us to learn from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIn taking this issue to the people we learned of the desire of our people to know more about their legal rights and requirements in relation to organ donation and post-mortems. We heard many concerns that our people have about the process, and the aspiration of wider wh\u0101nau members, such as kaum\u0101tua and kuia, to benefit from the information. We as a political party wanted to send this bill to a select committee, but ultimately our commitment to our constituency means everything, and we must be true to them. Over and over again the bill was rejected outright. N\u0101 reira, ka nui te mihi ki a koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022d723b85505164993bf36410e41cd1005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d723b85505164993bf36410e41cd1005\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to say that we will gladly support the first reading of this bill. I congratulate the sponsor, Jackie Blue, and, of course, I congratulate Andy Tookey on the commitment he has shown to this cause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI have to say that I am a little bit disappointed that the M\u0101ori Party has chosen at this stage not to offer support. I think that supporting a first reading gives a great opportunity for ongoing dialogue, not just within this House but outside. I understand the cultural sensitivities around this matter, but I also understand that all cultures are dynamic and responsive to phenomena, and often adjust over time. I believe that this discussion is an important one because of the fact that M\u0101ori are so overrepresented in the group that will often need organ donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThis issue is not unfamiliar to me. I personally have had some ethical dilemmas in my own life regarding certain medical procedures of in vitro fertilisation. I know that the technology has moved on a lot, but years ago, prior to when I was considering having children, I looked very seriously at this issue and wondered what would happen if I discovered I had a fertility problem, because I had some ethical dilemmas around the processes that were available at that time. I decided for myself that if I discovered I was going to have difficulties, I would have to live with those, because I could not ethically condone the practices of in vitro fertilisation of that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI mention that because on this matter all members need to ask themselves, with real honesty and regardless of their concerns, what their opinions would be if they or one of their close family members were put in a situation where an organ donation would save a life. All of us need to think that through very carefully. I realise that it is not just the M\u0101ori community that has some concerns around this. Other communities in New Zealand share some reservations about what we do with body parts. I respect those views, but I also think that this technology provides us with an opportunity to think again and to re-evaluate, together as a community, what this means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThis bill is long overdue. For years we have put up with the silly situation whereby upon going into an Automobile Association office to sign up for a driver\u2019s licence, we suddenly, often unexpectedly, are faced with the chance to tick a box and say whether we are prepared to be a donor. Often we have not given it any thought at all, and we make a snap decision. I know of many people who did not tick the box because they could think of parts of their body that they did not want to donate, and other parts that they would be happy to donate. They did not get that option on the form, and therefore they ticked \u201CNo\u201D. The other aspect is that two very unrelated things\u2014a driver\u2019s licence and an organ donation system\u2014are linked together, and that very matter was one of the things the select committee looked at when Mr Tookey petitioned us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I suggest would be an interesting consideration would be to look at the current blood donor system. People go in to give blood in donation mode. They may be very open at that stage to considering organ donation. When people have decided to be a donor, we must follow up that offer with some really good information and encourage them to spend time talking to their families. Certainly, since Mr Tookey brought his petition I have done just that with my family. We have discussed organ donation thoroughly. I have expressed my desire to be an organ donor. I have checked with my children, who are now adults, about what their desire would be if something befell them. We have talked about it really clearly, and we all now know where we stand on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI also mention in passing that one of my roles in my previous life was as a funeral celebrant. So I am very well acquainted with the trauma and emotional baggage that goes on when people have lost someone very close to them, and I know how difficult it is to make a decision. We agree with surgeons that nobody wants to force a family who are grieving to go ahead with the donation against their will. That is why it is really important to have this discussion. We will support this bill. We think some changes need to be made, but we congratulate the sponsor of the bill, and we congratulate Andy Tookey. It is great that this discussion can now begin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00227926de601dcf441ca04b3228715efaeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227926de601dcf441ca04b3228715efaeb\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It is very encouraging to hear that the Minister is keen for an open and collaborative discussion on how we in New Zealand can increase organ donation. I certainly also hope that during the select committee process the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s views will be well made to and better understood across the various parties in the House. But, firstly, I acknowledge the initiative and work of my colleague Dr Jackie Blue and congratulate her on the way she has taken on the responsibility of this bill. I also acknowledge Andy Tookey, who is sitting in the gallery. He firstly, with dogged determination, brought a petition to Parliament, and then he consistently supported with ardent fervour this organ donation bill coming into Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EDr Blue has clearly outlined that donor shortage is a major problem in New Zealand, and that with an ageing population and an obesity and diabetic epidemic in the country there will be even greater demands for donor organs into the future. Unless new techniques such as may occur from stem cell research become a reality, demand will continue to outstrip supply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the altruism of individuals and families throughout New Zealand who are willing to donate their organs to help others. It is classic Kiwi goodwill that so many are available. The tragedy is that so few come for donation in New Zealand. It is clear that many New Zealanders know little about the complexities and subtleties, legal and technical, associated with organ donation. One thing that I think must never occur is the commercial aspect to donation, apart from compensation for expenses. Coupled with the donor\u2019s generosity, it is fundamental to acknowledge the extremely sensitive, demanding, and challenging work that doctors, nurses, and intensivists\u2014transplant specialists\u2014undertake on a 24-hour basis, 7 days a week, to enable the process of organ donation to proceed effectively when organs are available in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe House should be reminded that the 2004 report of the Health Committee recommended to the Government that it proceed to investigate the option of an indicative register that records organ donation wishes, independent of its review of the regulation of human tissue and tissue-based therapy. Dr Stephen Streat, a specialist intensivist, has taken on the extremely demanding job of clinical leader of Organ Donation New Zealand. There is no doubt that it is hugely important, if we are to achieve a successful organ donor system in New Zealand, that the views of all participants in the process are thoroughly understood and listened to so that it runs smoothly. There needs to be a framework of cooperation, not a framework of conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI understand that in the United Kingdom there has been antagonism between the transplant and the intensive care community. However, in New Zealand under the present regime, indicative as it is, there is a highly collaborative relationship that leads to the smooth running of this very technically complex process. It has been impressed on me that the quality of the processes developed must be extremely high, as any mistakes are liable to be magnified. New Zealand does have a legacy of failures around informed consent, dating from the National Women\u2019s Hospital cervical cancer inquiry, the Gisborne inquiry, the Green Lane Hospital heart library, and the neonatal physiotherapy saga. Therefore, it is vital that the lessons learnt from these extremely damaging episodes of New Zealand history are taken on board when it comes to developing the regulatory framework of a successful donor system, and particularly the parameters around informed consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI end by saying that Dr Jackie Blue\u2019s bill will serve as a very important template to generate informed discussion about organ donation. Hopefully, after going through the select committee process, it will achieve a regulatory framework that successfully serves the organ donation needs of the New Zealand community and will be evidence-based.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00220c9df5d16a3b4619a4d6022615b54127\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c9df5d16a3b4619a4d6022615b54127\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call tonight and I congratulate Dr Jackie Blue on her initiatives in bringing this bill to the House. However, I have to say that I have great reservations about it, and I am glad to have the opportunity to mention them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI was chair of the Health Committee when we heard Andy Tookey\u2019s petition, and we were all very moved. I am glad he is here tonight to see this bill coming to the House. I think this bill will certainly stimulate and increase discussion about the position of organ donation in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe were very careful. We took Andy\u2019s petition very, very seriously because we are worried about the organ donation rate in this country. We came up with eight recommendations, and not one of those recommendations was a legislative option. I remind all members that after we had heard the petition, not one of our eight recommendations suggested a bill. We were focused on ongoing education campaigns. We were looking at a national public awareness campaign. We knew there needed to be a lot of discussion with M\u0101ori over the issues of lore, not law. We knew that we were a long way away from increasing that level of awareness. We instigated the establishment of Organ Donation New Zealand, and I was really thrilled to see that happen. My colleague Sue Kedgley said that nothing has happened, but Organ Donation New Zealand is now set up. It is now moving to develop policies and protocols to increase awareness of the need for organ donation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI admit to some frustration with the New Zealand driver\u2019s-licence system, and the farce that it is to tick the box to be registered as a donor. I sought approval from Cabinet to draft a member\u2019s bill. Off I went, with a legal drafter, to see the intensivists at Auckland Hospital. I was told very, very clearly that no matter what is on the driver\u2019s licence and on a register, they will never look at that first, because they never want to be put in the position, with end-of-life care, of looking like they are harvesting organs. They want a family to reach its own conclusion in respect of end-of-life care. They do not want it to look like they see the tick on the register then go in to harvest the organs. We have to respect that. They are the intensivists whom we all depend upon when we have a loved one needing end-of-life care. I came out of that meeting with those people who now run Organ Donation New Zealand and decided that I would not draft a bill. That was after doing a lot of research on the international figures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI think this Government has gone about this issue the right way. It is about incremental change. We now have Organ Donation New Zealand. It is progressing. We have also developed a human tissue bill. That has been done. We are waiting for the bill to be introduced, as the Minister Pete Hodgson said. Developing that bill was an incredibly important step, because when we went out on consultation, with a discussion document, we received an enormous response from people around the country. They too did not understand the complexity around organ donation. That bill will address the issues that are in Dr Blue\u2019s bill. I think it will be interesting to see which one comes first and how the Health Committee interfaces the approaches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI do not believe that legislation is the right mechanism at this stage to increase organ availability. I think we need to look at the issue of informed consent when we get our driver\u2019s licence or when we register with a primary health organisation. That is the time to have a discussion with the family doctor about what it means to be a donor, and whether a donor can give some organs and not others. We can then go back and make our families very aware of our wishes. That is indicative consent that the family will give. I do not like the fact that the family has no power of veto. I do not think that will help towards the yield of organs, which we want in order to increase the numbers on the Organ Donor Register. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIt will be interesting to see how the Health Committee looks at the human tissue legislation and at Dr Blue\u2019s bill. I urge the Health Committee to invite those intensivists to participate, and also to look at the very interesting opinion that is held at the moment by the New Zealand Medical Association, which has a contrary view. The committee has the difficult task of putting those views together, and I wish it well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9c9cd850633479f81986dd119b950e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9c9cd850633479f81986dd119b950e9\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to speak today in support of Dr Jackie Blue\u2019s Human Tissue (Organ Donation) Amendment Bill. I also acknowledge Andy Tookey\u2019s presence here. I know he made the trip down here before the adjournment to hear this bill. We did not get through all the business that night, so it is a sign of his dedication that he is back here again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI believe that this bill will go some way to addressing the pressing problem of a shortage of organs for donation in this country. As such, it really does stand to benefit greatly the people of New Zealand. It will represent a significant change to the current system for donor arrangements. The bottom line is that organ donation saves lives. New Zealanders deserve the right to have their wishes respected in death, including the decision to donate an organ. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EMany New Zealand families have been enormously comforted in times of distress by the knowledge that a dearly loved family member has been able to give another human being the chance of life. What is more, the long-term success rates for transplant surgery have increased dramatically over the past few years. Now, 5 years after gaining a new heart, 75 percent of recipients are still alive, and 5 years after receiving a new liver, 90 percent of people are still living. From just one donor, as many as 10 people can directly benefit and drastically improve their quality of life or be given the chance of continued life. Organ donation has positively impacted on the lives of many, many New Zealanders and their families. However, it is my belief that the current Act is not working and that New Zealand really does need to proactively address why our level of organ donation is so low, so that we can find a solution to this problem before more people die while waiting for a donor organ to become available. In 2004 approximately 400 New Zealanders were waiting for a donor organ, and there are 350 at the present time. In 2005, 19 people died while waiting for a donor organ, and with a diabetes epidemic upon us, the demand for donor kidneys will further outstrip the number of organs available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EInterestingly, around 1.1 million New Zealanders have said yes to organ donation on their drivers\u2019 licences. In many cases, though, when someone in this situation becomes eligible to donate his or her organs, family members veto such a request. This is one of the major issues that Jackie Blue\u2019s bill seeks to address. Although only a small number of people who die each year are medically suitable to donate their organs, on average 43 percent of these people are stopped from donating due to the veto of the family. Indeed, it is well known that putting \u201Cdonor\u201D on one\u2019s driver\u2019s licence is not a legally binding way to become an organ donor. This bill would make a person\u2019s stated and documented wish to donate legally binding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EAnother area of contention in the current Act is the lack of a national register for organ donors, as well as there being no choice as to what organs a person can choose to donate. For an organ donation system to work effectively, a national register such as the one Dr Blue proposes is necessary. This is because such a register would include non-drivers, unlike the current system, and would allow people to specify which organs they would and would not like to donate once they are deceased. As well as this, they would be given a choice about what their organs would be used for\u2014for medical research or for donation to a fellow human being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIn 2004 the Health Committee considered the issue of organ donor rates and what could be done about increasing them. Although there have been efforts to act on many of the committee\u2019s recommendations, it is clear that more impetus is required. New Zealanders deserve the chance for this bill to be examined at select committee level. There is a groundswell of public support out there for this issue to be examined. The articles, letters, and editorials in our newspapers are testament to this. We are under no illusion that there will not be difficulties in enacting what this bill proposes, but we would be letting down the people of New Zealand if we filed this one away in the too-hard basket. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EIn summary, the Human Tissue (Organ Donation) Amendment Bill seeks to address the shortcomings of the current system. It is a step in the right direction of addressing a major problem for our nation\u2014our terribly low organ donor rates. Any bill that seriously attempts to do this should be given the chance to be considered in detail by this Parliament. We owe that to the people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c99d75e23a914357a385a76b37207d8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c99d75e23a914357a385a76b37207d8c\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to thank all members for their comments. I am grateful there appears to be support for this bill to go to the Health Committee. I thank the Minister the Hon Pete Hodgson for his input, and I agree that we must get it right. The Health Committee must look overseas to find examples of how the legislation works. I believe the key will be a register that gives clarity, education, and teamwork, and I agree with Steve Chadwick that Organ Donation New Zealand has started that process already. When I met with Steve in the street, I was very impressed and very pleased to learn that that teamwork is happening in the intensive care units around New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI acknowledge Tariana Turia. I respect the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s position, and understand the cultural difficulties it has with donations from deceased donors. I am very pleased that as a result of this bill there has been discussion and debate with Ms Turia\u2019s people, and that M\u0101ori are now talking about live donation. I note in yesterday\u2019s New Zealand Herald that a M\u0101ori health worker, Mr Phil Heremaia, will go on the road in a bid to increase donor rates among M\u0101ori people, and I think that is a very positive step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I thank all members for their comments. The bill will be a challenge, but it is one that the Health Committee must meet, as we must find a way through this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f42555384764169a95a32d4bf483276\u0022\u003EMarine Reserves (Consultation with Stakeholders) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022821014e6a22c4374a3664b12cc9f45cc\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u00222e93354a7bc34a92b15344ac9019f271\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e93354a7bc34a92b15344ac9019f271\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Marine Reserves (Consultation with Stakeholders) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I am very happy to promote this bill to the House. The bill has really come out of seeing a model working, and working in a particular area, with quite startling outcomes. There have been some very, very good results from what has been achieved in the Fiordland area\u2014but I will talk more about that later. I thank spokespeople from the various parties who have shown an interest in this bill, and those who have consulted with me during the process today. I thank them for their interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EInitially, I will say a few things about marine reserves. I do not believe that there should be an arbitrary percentage of the economic zone in a marine reserve. I think that if we are to adopt that, we are admitting failures in a number of areas. In 1996 the Fisheries Act was rewritten to embrace the purposes and principles of sustainability, and that is what underpins the management of the marine areas of New Zealand. Sustainability must come first. Marine reserves are important\u2014they are an important tool\u2014but they fit alongside a number of other mechanisms that are embraced in that legislation: m\u0101taitai reserves, tai-\u0101-pure, fisheries management plans, total allowable catch management of the fishery, and a whole number of mechanisms that are there. Marine reserves are an important part of that. There is a rational argument that we should preserve some parts of our marine environment untouched and unmodified. There is a rational argument that there are fragile areas that need protection\u2014and I am thinking of some of the black and red corals that exist in Fiordland, and of similar examples around New Zealand. These need to be protected, and the marine reserve may well be the best mechanism for doing that. There are places in the marine reserve that are high recruitment areas where fish go to spawn. I can think of a number of areas like that where a marine reserve may well be the appropriate mechanism of protection. There are some iconic locations in our marine environment where placing a marine reserve over those locations increases the prestige and enhances the value of those particular areas. So marine reserves are important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESo the question arises as to why this particular bill is necessary. If we look at our track record of the process of setting up marine reserves and at how many marine reserves have been established, particularly in recent days, we can see that it is, indeed, a very tortuous process. In some instances there were quite lengthy and quite polarised opinions, quite a degree of acrimony and, indeed, some isolation. In fact, in the last 7 years under this Labour Government 13 marine reserves have been established. Now, that may sound\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221f367a37e1c40d08638f92ad7d292b9\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Sixteen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c7d294226e4793a4d3cf5aa4e4aa23\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am corrected. My researcher tells me 13. Well, if it is 16 that is fine. The interesting thing is that eight of these marine reserves were established in Fiordland by the process upon which the Marine Reserves (Consultation with Stakeholders) Amendment Bill is modelled. Simply, this bill requires consultation with all stakeholders. We are saying that every stakeholder is important in the establishment. We have had situations whereby stakeholders have not considered their worth as being equal and in many cases have felt isolated, so they have taken a position of antagonism towards marine reserves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe situation in Fiordland was that all the stakeholders said that it is a precious and unique area and that they needed to do some things to manage it. That was the concept around which they gathered. There were commercial operators who were in tourism and fishing, recreational boaties, fishermen, iwi, and conservationists. A range of people simply got together and set up the Guardians of Fiordland\u2019s Fisheries and Marine Environment. Yes, they got some help from a few people with specialities in the area to guide and lead them, but essentially it was a homespun solution to a very unique and precious part of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EOut of that came the recognition that we need to have protection over some areas, and that the best way to do that is to have marine reserves. In one piece of legislation eight marine reserves were established, simply because consultation was taken seriously and all the parties who had an interest in that particular area were consulted. I think that is an absolutely stunning result. There we have an example whereby half of the marine reserves that have been established in the last 7 years were achieved by the group that had total consultation in the area. So I say that it is absolutely necessary that we consider the importance of individual stakeholders in establishing a marine reserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThis bill requires that consultation. I am aware that there is a Marine Reserves Bill 2002 that is parked in the Local Government and Environment Committee, so at the conclusion of the debate on this particular bill\u2014and I presume that it will be successful\u2014I will move that it go to the Local Government and Environment Committee. It is my expectation that this bill will stimulate some result and that we may see the more complete Marine Reserves Bill come back on to the Table. I notice that the Minister of Conservation is nodding. That will be my second objective in putting in this bill, and I want to see some action on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWhere this bill differs slightly in process to the Marine Reserves Bill is in relation to Part 4 of the Marine Reserves Bill, regarding the consultation and establishment process. I say to members that they might like to consider, in particular, clauses 46 to about 53. The bill that I am promoting ramps up the process of consultation with those stakeholders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI am happy to promote this bill. I believe that it will be a significant step forward. I live between two areas that have totally different approaches. On one side of me is Nugget Point, and the Minister Clayton Cosgrove, I am sure, will recognise the agony that has been gone through around that process. Having met with those people\u2014[Interruption] I know that the member for Waimakariri is indeed interested in this bill. He cannot contain himself; he is so excited to promote it. He may care just to listen and learn from the example. What I am saying is that in Nugget Point there is a totally polarised position whereby the local community is not in favour of it. Some are in favour and some are not, but, essentially, they feel disenfranchised. On the other side, in Fiordland, where there was complete involvement by a whole range of stakeholders, there are now eight marine reserves, just like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EProbably one of the key aspects in including this wider consultation is that if the community is involved, they take ownership of the outcome. In taking ownership of that outcome they actually value that outcome, and that will be one of the key protection items in maintaining compliance with a marine reserve. Many of these marine reserves are in quite isolated areas. One can think of up around the islands to the north of New Zealand, of the subantarctic, and of Fiordland. We do not actually have a lot of fisheries officers there to monitor and ensure the protection of and compliance with what a marine reserve establishes. So if we have a buy-in from the community, they will ensure the compliance with what is necessary to maintain that marine reserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. I thank members who have shown an interest in it. I look forward to seeing it progress through the Local Government and Environment Committee, and also look forward to the Marine Reserves Bill 2002 being reconsidered so that we might have some sensible outcomes with one tool. That is important to the management of our marine environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00222416ec24d063463ea92e8b347a1f567b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222416ec24d063463ea92e8b347a1f567b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E The Government will support the Marine Reserves (Consultation with Stakeholders) Amendment Bill. As the previous speaker, who is sponsoring the bill, Eric Roy, said, New Zealand has a biologically rich and complex marine environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ce3f69e5d843308f4ec6622702be60\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Sometimes members\u2019 interjections are nice and witty. The accusation by \u201CMini Mike Moore\u201D over there that I should be bouncing away in a bar is absolutely horrendous. I ask you, Madam Assistant Speaker, to get him to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d6c66dc7544eddb79aad755227fd9d\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b0b133cc4b64c168a0d27602225aa74\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I realise I have just a couple of minutes to go. In 2 weeks\u2019 time, when the bill comes back, I will be in Kiribati visiting the third-largest marine protected area in the world, which was declared as such a few weeks ago by the Government of that Pacific Island State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMarine protection is something that all countries of the world with a coastline and marine area are absolutely passionate about. New Zealand has the world\u2019s fourth-largest marine zone\u2014a zone that is 15 times larger than our land area\u2014and contained within that unique biological area are some 15,000 species, most of which are endemic to our region. It is absolutely critical that we protect them. Marine reserves provide one tool for doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMr Roy is correct: the Marine Reserves Bill has been sitting with the Local Government and Environment Committee for a long time. I hope his bill, which I support, will stimulate progress on that legislation. There is a real opportunity for the consultative processes that he has incorporated into his bill to be weaved into the Marine Reserves Bill, because the bills contain many similar provisions. Also, of course, the Government has declared its marine protected area strategy, which I launched last year with the Minister of Fisheries. The strategy is all about creating an environment where key stakeholders\u2014recreational fishers, commercial fishers, iwi, local government, and conservationists\u2014work together to create just the sort of outcome that Mr Roy described in respect of Fiordland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20060503a2936277d2b541e2af7c69855b5f9d27000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"