"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc9671eabddb4fe088fda54c589e4bea\u0022\u003ETuesday, 12 December 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6d06d9505f84de69efb8e9cb9611add\u0022\u003ETuesday, 12 December 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002206c7d2b213314d3597f7932f75256f58\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221dd82e3687b8407187dd1ee7e873b145\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002291f84cc8ab744b76b607a6e52bbe9963\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Act\u2014Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7aa6c7e012a4d30b7f37aa4655b71d8\u0022\u003E1. DARIEN FENTON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: Has she received any reports relating to proposed changes to the Employment Relations Act 2000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00228d259806c0be421d9077433c633c2ac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d259806c0be421d9077433c633c2ac6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have. I have seen one report that states: \u201CUnder National, expect quite significant changes. There was nothing wrong with the Employment Contracts Act.\u201D Another states: \u201CBroadly speaking we weren\u2019t planning to make major changes \u2026 we haven\u2019t argued \u2026 that we would go all the way back to the Employment Contracts Act, \u2026\u201D. Both of these contradictory statements are from John Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270faf8c475e144d6ae5570c33bc07016\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any other reports on proposals relating to the Employment Relations Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc3bf5d1c734a8887e44a1f820d43d1\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, I have. The first is a report stating: \u201CWe support flexible labour markets because countries with such markets have lower unemployment.\u201D A second report states: \u201CThe Employment Relations Act has been one of the driving forces to New Zealand having low levels of unemployment.\u201D Both statements, again contradictory, were from John Key, and both were made in the same month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224271398627fe407287875e20b439c104\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any other reports relating to proposed changes to the Employment Relations Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397d0e9df42f410dbf0f0015899c9f6f\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report that the Exclusive Brethren sought to change the law in an attempt to bar unions from all their workplaces, regardless of size. They described employment relationships\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6312a92c8c6446bb277951281ede0a3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We are not having a repeat of what we had last Thursday. Members are entitled to be heard. Interjections are not to create disorder in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef2f4fe96e3142a2bf0f1deeb23fce8c\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Exclusive Brethren described the employment relationship as one of master and servant. This unsuccessful attempt was supported by the National Party. A second report shows that National\u2019s new industrial relations spokesperson, Kate Wilkinson, used to work for the Exclusive Brethren as legal counsel in Christchurch. Considering her close associations with the Exclusive Brethren, I wonder what concessions she wants to grant them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6b665f714c1410a81c136c22965e166\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister please repeat the answer. I assume that is what Mr Mark was about to request. The member knows full well that reports are sought and reports are being given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa84cd8cc1444b1aaea9383d1ae31db5\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: A second report shows that National\u2019s new industrial relations spokesperson, Kate Wilkinson, used to work for the Exclusive Brethren as legal counsel in Christchurch. Considering her close associations with the Exclusive Brethren, I wonder what concessions she wants to grant them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f8463ccd9f741189fdc80f8a2de664e\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Why does this Government have such a problem with two consenting adults freely engaging in capitalist acts for their mutual self-benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222074b4d8f9ce48aab7db7486b8ebd246\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: It depends whether there are third parties to the relationship who are not willing and consenting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022389e0daa11a942aeb02b558906ac5a28\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports, or is she otherwise aware, that many employers\u2014particularly small employers\u2014are not even acquainted with section 67 of the Employment Relations Act, which provides for probationary employment; if she is aware of this, will she take cognisance of the representations New Zealand First made to her that there should be an education campaign, particularly for small employers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ac7ff7917c4a0e9d6d0a3548d81765\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware of that fact. It was very obvious during submissions on Wayne Mapp\u2019s bill that was defeated recently by this Parliament. I have taken notice of the representation of that member and agreed to an education campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277bf05118f0b4d0f91dd3c1c171c8eb6\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it this Government\u2019s policy to insert a third party into the employment relationship when many New Zealanders do not want a bar of the unions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56b4ad1a7df4790bab109ebb3f6a6d3\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: We do have voluntary unionism in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229608a6b25bac40458ebdadfbd55b166d\u0022\u003EEnergy Strategy\u2014Carbon Neutrality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658ba555b0714073854be232b430bc1e\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that New Zealand \u201Ccould aim to be carbon neutral\u201D, and does she think the draft New Zealand Energy Strategy will help to achieve this aim?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022349f6c4012754b6095eef5a3ddb59e47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022349f6c4012754b6095eef5a3ddb59e47\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ad166e39006446ca08703871cfaf11f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Energy Strategy that was released yesterday\u2014presumably the document most likely to impact on climate change in New Zealand\u2014mention carbon neutrality only once, and only then in the footnote; and is this the first of many attempts by the Prime Minister to back away from that very unrealistic goal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f56f8375351425a8eebd5210e0eb6da\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously not, but then I have never been a climate change denier, like the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df6f3a94b1f54ded9d575104a5a0dbef\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with Michael Cullen\u2019s statement in the House last week that \u201Ccertainly the Government is committed to achieving carbon neutrality\u201D; if so, can she tell the House in what document, and under what time frame, New Zealanders will be able to see that carbon neutrality is achieved by this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be17b5db380455aa2af0573f3d3d131\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I told the member in the House last week, it is an aspiration\u2014at least we have them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022025d10ddeea94d59882dd052c3bd6045\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Since when has an aspiration become a commitment, outlined by the Deputy Prime Minister in the House last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258d9f95216c24b25b0b40510ec44a602\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the deputy leader quipped, I have the aspirations; he has to fund the commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ef4293d7bec444eacc02965706b0074\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Energy Strategy prevent the building of the three big new fossil-fuelled power stations that are imminent: Contact Energy\u2019s \u014Ct\u0101huhu C, Mighty River Power\u2019s Marsden B coal station, and Genesis Energy\u2019s gas station in Rodney, which, together with the almost built Huntly ep3 Power Station, total a 25 percent increase in current generation\u2014all of it fossil\u2014and if it will not prevent them, will not the huge increase in fossil fuel generation leave no room for new renewables and take us even further from the Prime Minister\u2019s goal of carbon neutrality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa146a375c574feba2716b443dc83b6a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I would not have described any of those three that the member mentioned as imminent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283291c6aa62049a388a0c35f229d0b33\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does it not show that carbon neutrality is just a mirage when the best-case scenario in the Energy Strategy is that by 2030 our carbon dioxide emissions will be back to where they were in 1990, which is net emissions of 26 million tonnes\u2014and that is achieved only after some pretty heroic assumptions; so when is carbon neutrality occurring?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2bb89ee1bf2456c81118dec39416f01\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is very committed to making a difference for climate change, rather than describing it as a hoax as the member did in this House last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224734f20b5e464f2693a7e770059a4fa3\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister noticed that yesterday\u2019s energy statement in response to climate change gave no commitments, no clear signals, no timelines, and just a bunch of statements prefaced by the word \u201Ccould\u201D; or does that explain why under this Government 85 percent of new energy has been generated by coal, and, once again, her record does not stack up to her rhetoric?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f51563fc0e344ee884513c6e03807dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That question simply confirms that the member has not bothered to read the strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f5c414cdb2546de9aa66a7f257f177f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can I confirm for the Prime Minister that I have read the strategy; has she read the conclusion that has three lines and reads like a Confucius poem\u2014and I say to her that if she had not put those three lines in there, the Government would have been forced to write \u201CThis page has been left intentionally blank.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022906ac9dc53ff4500890f27246103bfd6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: All I can say is that the very substantial policy being generated by the Government on climate change issues far outweighs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254b8a113103a4f579af782bb60283cd4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am unable to hear the Prime Minister\u2019s answer. Would you please start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c57d56359376420d8f0aff16ad9e1a46\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The substantial policy proposals being generated by the Government on this issue far outweigh the two pages the National Party has produced after 7 years in Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002289bb4d978bc04d09815808e44c6ad8b1\u0022\u003EAssaults on Police\u2014Stabbing or Cutting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e828ca9db5e04a4c9515df4351a14a1d\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: How many assaults on police where a stabbing or cutting weapon was used have been committed in the years ending July 2005 and July 2006, and between July 2006 and today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022c44cfe6d44ff4c6eb44a56f917229400\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c44cfe6d44ff4c6eb44a56f917229400\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E For the year ending 30 June 2005 there were six recorded assaults on police where a stabbing or cutting weapon was used, there were seven such assaults in 2006, and the figures for the period since 30 June 2006 have not yet been compiled. Police statistics for the calendar year 2006 are due in April 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217e06b3af3324232b27fbb42c8621e11\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In my primary question I asked for the statistics for between July 2006 and today. Those figures, surely, must have been available to the Minister. She has had 4 hours to get that information, and she should have been able to present it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6a19e81c06842eda2cb5fdc949a284e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised by the police that the statistics for that calendar year from July 2006 come out in April 2007. I do not have them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230b95f539d0e419db596fa3af37ea62e\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister have to say to the six officers who were stabbed in the period between June 2004 and July 2005\u2014officers who were told in March in 2004 that stab-resistant body armour was to be introduced within 3 months\u2014and will she inform the House when the police are to finally receive the armour they were promised more than 2 years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce96497b8a3b47028ba426858026ff0e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I would say to those officers that I very much regret that the body armour has not been available for them. There have been problems in getting the stab-proof body armour for them. I can inform the House that the roll-out starts in Counties-Manukau on Monday, in Auckland City on 8 January, and all other districts follow by April 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201694bac5d5743e3bd818fe0e5da9053\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister have to say to the at least nine officers who were stabbed between July 2005 and today\u2014officers who heard the Commissioner of Police promise he would resign if body armour was not introduced during that period\u2014and how can police officers or the public have any confidence in the office of the Commissioner of Police, when no vests or resignations have been forthcoming and front-line police are still waiting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f08b4db5b14f4314b9102e06e9c87286\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I would repeat to those officers the same thing that I said in my original answer. The Commissioner of Police who made that promise and undertaking is no longer the Commissioner of Police. The deputy commissioner, Rob Pope, who is highly respected around New Zealand for his role as a police officer, undertook to have the stab-resistant vests in place as soon as possible; in fact, he flew to London to ensure that the problem they were having with the fabric was resolved. I have now given the member the dates for the roll-out of the vests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2584f87c3eb48ee988d8b7270bf375a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a newspaper report from March 2004, whereby a police headquarters spokeswoman said that police planned to introduce body armour from June 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221091d838778f424a8242eabb57ce209a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a transcript from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, dated June 2005, whereby the police commissioner pledged to resign if stab-resistant body armour was not delivered within 1 year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e3f440d4ee94a598e8d2df5c0448322\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ae4364d6364f4c81c5eeae4eb000c6\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Hansard transcript from September this year, whereby Nick Smith\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235bd03e7537f4e46bac6e7b5aca00216\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I remind members that during points of order there should be no comment. So would you please proceed, Mr Mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca6e7a6f75ed469cad3f0d4e012c044b\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a transcript whereby Nick Smith objected to photos of stabbed officers being tabled as they were \u201Cnot relevant to New Zealand\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156de589d21044fea097eb8ee01e9864\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c20ea987fbc4a8bbaa921b3682f8448\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table section 10 of the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992, which states that an employer must make accessible to employees, and ensure the use of by employees, suitable clothing and equipment to protect themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187c02d4f514428185b5be1de9c2fe32\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab38cb55611c40a291ae51c7671cd988\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table statistics from the United States FBI that show that in that police force, where there are guns and Tasers, the assaults on police using a knife or other cutting instrument are more than double those statistics for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282e3818eb0d0441893c210ec3a56b247\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cb7a3fac300494a93a0c67007ee2453\u0022\u003ECorrections, Minister\u2014Resignation over Death in Custody\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220024bb5920a04913820a585727e5d70a\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Has he tendered his resignation as Minister of Corrections over the death of Liam Ashley in Corrections\u2019 custody; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00226eb0b244d9d74639ae233c648511b9f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eb0b244d9d74639ae233c648511b9f3\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E No; I have a clear responsibility to oversee changes to the corrections system to prevent such a tragedy from occurring ever again in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220334233ec2394441b5ff09a4d439d683\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Who is responsible for Liam Ashley\u2019s death?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4e3d5ade7704627b6dacf720b86da4c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: George Baker committed the murder. The corrections system let Liam and his family down. Mistakes were made. That system has to be changed to ensure that such a terrible tragedy cannot occur again. I am committed to making those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220911320add74e87a6d2eb84e38e163f\u0022\u003EAnn Hartley\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister intend to do to prevent a similar tragedy from occurring?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bbf9635bd5c4baf83ddd8deca8ee557\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Immediately following Liam\u2019s death, I directed the department to ensure that all prisoners under the age of 18 years are kept separate outside of prison in all circumstances. That will continue to stand. I have directed Barry Matthews to urgently draft a plan of action to implement all of the recommendations outlined in the report, in order to prevent such tragedies. There will be further changes as necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276eff4c4d9224a7d8971426012549003\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that no one at all will be held responsible either for systemic slackness in the corrections system\u2014such as the established practice of regularly transporting young people locked in cages with adults, in breach of the law\u2014or for specific errors such as the failure to communicate crucial information regarding risk at hand-over; is he saying that no one will be held responsible for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f05183a81a9649e4b21dcf9450b44ef6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: A number of mistakes were made in this terrible set of circumstances. The system was not robust enough to protect Liam Ashley when those mistakes were made. I take responsibility for making the changes to ensure that that does not occur in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4c5ecda0846441a951ce6fe5e1978fc\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister concede that if just one of at least 10 mistakes committed at an operational level had not occurred, then this tragedy would not have occurred; if he does concede that, why does he not just accept responsibility, do the right thing, and resign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229baad52583a544d79f07aae9aa49a3cf\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: That member identifies 10\u2014possibly more\u2014mistakes made in the system. I have a clear responsibility to ensure that the system is changed to prevent those mistakes being made in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259ccbfd605eb4d3783632ec30fad3a48\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned about the report\u2019s scathing assessment of the performance and procedures of the Auckland Central Remand Prison and, given that the decision to change that prison from a successful, privately run prison to what is apparently now a failure under public ownership was based not on its performance but on blind anti-private ideology by Cabinet with support from the Greens, what responsibility does the Government accept for the prison\u2019s failures in this case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d6d18a269a4ca4ad2c74656059f360\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am very concerned that such mistakes could be made anywhere in the corrections system at any prison. We have a responsibility, and I do as Minister, to ensure that we protect prisoners in the corrections system and that we make the changes necessary to prevent such a tragedy occurring in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263255bb99af64586b196b917082db05c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the comments of Liam Ashley\u2019s mother, Lorraine Ashley, that his department is \u201Cincompetent through and through\u201D, and that heads had to roll because \u201CIt\u2019s like a pyramid. Someone has to be held accountable.\u201D; and how can he, as the apex of that pyramid of incompetence, justify the fact that he will not be seeking any resignations or dismissals\u2014least of all his own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b46bbd6631a4a34b44401f749e7e854\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I have offered the Ashleys my deepest sympathy at this terrible loss. I can understand their frustration, and I too am alarmed at the mistakes made in the corrections system. I have spoken to the chief executive. He has a clear responsibility to carry out actions and changes to make sure this situation will not occur in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf9836206ff4ed48c8b757f529ab60b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that all of the 10 or more mistakes that contributed to Liam Ashley\u2019s death came down to staff and contractors not following procedures; and, in light of the fact that his department had not even bothered to make sure that those procedures reflected changes to the law in 2004 and 2005, how can the public have any confidence that the Minister has enough control over his department to ensure it follows any new rules he decides to impose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc31128cc9944fc4be8c7f82f8c62928\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The overhaul of prison transportation, as I have announced, will start right at the top, at head office, to clarify who has responsibility for laying down policies and reflecting changes in legislation. The overhaul will go all the way through the corrections system to any contractors that may be involved in the transportation of prisoners at any time in the corrections system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a3ef8ba0e3e468a8d59e51a807c2201\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that despite the desire of the Ashley family for heads to roll, no one has resigned or been dismissed from the Department of Corrections; and what does it actually take for someone from his department to get fired?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216dd30fc8e4a4956a5d84225c9cdcde6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the Ashley family wants an assurance\u2014an absolute assurance\u2014that the lessons learnt from this terrible tragedy, the loss of their son, will not be lost, and that we will make the changes to ensure that such a loss does not happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293597cb36d0d4363a05eda617c46921a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports that the tragedy of the Ashley family was enhanced by a political party that set up the system of moving prisoners in that way and that is now disowning all ownership of it\u2014namely, the change in 1988 by the National Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022590db4cea86e46b6b809813173475ae8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: 1988?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eab6d522f7b42d89920cffbc053a94d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, 1998\u2014to privatise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d942038db04655a22928ec213e42d6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand First\u2014Ron Mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4806fb0a27a45fba62fa05290ac7dbb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was not; no, we were not. If the big fellow just keeps quiet, I will tell him the facts. It was National in 1998, all by itself, with Jenny Shipley. It changed the system. So is the Ashley tragedy enhanced by the total disowning of that policy by National?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227571c47863b34e19b40054253442c60d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to make a judgment on whether that was the particular factor. But I can acknowledge that in 1998 the system was changed, to allow Chubb, as a private contractor, to come in and carry out work in the corrections system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a2300626b5b46ff94d0406d2e554f45\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that both he and his chief executive, Barry Matthews, have claimed in the last day that they will not resign, because the mistakes that led to Liam Ashley\u2019s death were systemic; if so, who is responsible for systemic problems when they are big enough to lead to somebody\u2019s death?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022695e304924c64cd4a3f05670f442c06a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Barry Matthews and myself are responsible for ensuring that the corrections system operates properly. We are responsible for making the changes to rectify faults where they are identified\u2014the changes in policy that need to be made to prevent this happening again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cae936ee479545bfaa4b79785bc19c26\u0022\u003EAustralia / New Zealand\u2014One Country Proposal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fbe27b6b2f64fd4829d60eda98be34e\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she agree that Australia and New Zealand should consider becoming one country, as proposed by the Australian House of Representatives Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022858b8b012cbd4f698d3e3a2e50ef6cf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022858b8b012cbd4f698d3e3a2e50ef6cf8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E No; the decision not to join the federation was made in 1901, and I see no reason to revisit it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022953c87c81672406b97e10a16c89db8c6\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: If she does not agree that New Zealand should become the seventh state of Australia, why is her Government introducing legislation today that will transfer control of pharmaceuticals and dietary supplements to an offshore agency that is based in Australia, is set up under Australian law, is dominated by Australian staff, and has an unelected managing director who will have unprecedented powers to make delegated legislation; and how can she claim that this is anything other than giving up our sovereignty to Australia by stealth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd0e4cf68e934b70b1a0a251a04217b4\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There is a very long distance between becoming a state of Australia and having a trans-Tasman agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce2a64df03c4d8898876a72898ffb62\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that once the legislation has been passed, the unelected managing director of the new agency will have the power to make and enforce rules and orders that will have a direct effect in New Zealand, without requiring the approval of this Parliament, and that the only recourse that this Parliament will have against rules and orders set in Canberra will be if a member of the Regulations Review Committee successfully moves a motion to disallow a rule in this House\u2014something that has never happened in this Parliament\u2019s history?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec4fe411a467409b8f8e4b4f9afc5ce7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The member just answered her own question\u2014there is a procedure for this Parliament to disallow such a rule. But I think it is important that she not spread misinformation about the nature of the agency, which is a truly trans-Tasman agency with, as the Minister for Food Safety will point out shortly, head offices in both capitals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223657ddef6e91432a803b2905c14c97cd\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Government\u2019s intention to help protect the health and safety of New Zealanders from, for example, complementary medicines that have harmful ingredients in them; if so, could she give an example of such products?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228ec75dfe04e4ee1bf7d330417f84d04\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of herbs and ingredients of concern that are used in these products. I note, for example, that there have been herbal products spiked with undeclared steroids and others spiked with the active ingredient in Viagra. There is a reason for regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3add1eb9d1a4cbb8ddb9ee7a588a535\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table four documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc640167886541d986046e010b65d54c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just remind members that the seeking of leave is to be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242cc3d74a50c452fa3f6d5c4fe227cfc\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: The first is a human relations policy options document on the agency, which states that of 557 employees it is envisaged that 93 percent of them will be Australian and 7 percent will be from New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b696a11ee024b12983c226f7bfcfd04\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: The second is the unanimous report of the Health Committee into the trans-Taman agreement, in which it points out the power\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd27e2ae5174388acdd4dd0fc59c664\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. [Interruption] The member has to identify the document, not read it out in full. It was identified for members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de1d0a4bc1fd495996906271028896fc\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: The third is the treaty between the Government of Australia and New Zealand for the establishment of the joint agency, in which it points out that the managing director\u2019s powers will be unprecedented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3d6f0ee2762416bac1bad4ec674d3a0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8e1f59007654aa19e8fbfa0f89bba8d\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: My final tabling is a number of documents in which New Zealand First assures New Zealanders it will not support this legislation, and a transcript from Radio New Zealand, in which Winston Peters says that those who believe in natural medicines\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213c07a0409fa4385b1c0d31308d55b0d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261c2bb0e9c7d4c958832915e631f839f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the original legislation, which New Zealand First opposed, and which is light years away from the legislation going before the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230821918f41e487b813db708cf2c4b1d\u0022\u003EEnergy Strategy\u2014Draft Action Plan\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022519fcd795c3247738f4ac8bc7245790a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy: What specific changes, if any, does he expect to see following his release yesterday of a draft New Zealand Energy Strategy outlining a draft action plan across six broad areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002278745f6c5f9842cd87c26006170d8d0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278745f6c5f9842cd87c26006170d8d0c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Energy: I expect renewables and energy efficiency to advance. I expect some non-renewable initiatives to be rethought. I expect also the National Party to tie itself in knots, as it usually does, when Labour leads any debate on a sustainable future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022737d6d3e8f2d4b50b15509ecb31e134f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How does it give any certainty or direction to the energy industry when the best his draft strategy\u2014with its draft action plan\u2014can say is that when it comes to encouraging low emissions, a wide range of policy options are available: we could have an emissions trading regime; we could have a narrow-based carbon tax; we could have a mix of incentives, subsidies, and regulations; and we could have luck; and how is that supposed to be a strategy that guides anyone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022542f378e494e4339a25d7ac777dba112\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The idea of a strategic discussion paper is to put options before the public and invite them to make their response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f2bf24c5654b0bbf1943df3ab88e12\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any reports on the extent to which climate change, which some say is driven substantially by the use of fossil fuels in the energy sector, is accepted as an issue of consequence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217c8697c75464419b26c43983b1f3c20\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen two reports. The first states: \u201CThis is a complete and utter hoax, if I may say so. The impact of the Kyoto Protocol, even if one believes in global warming\u2014and I am somewhat suspicious of it\u2014\u201D. The second states: \u201CI firmly believe in climate change, and I always have.\u201D Both of these statements came from the National Party leader, Mr John Key. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228b0fa935a8c4c129833a696f89666dd\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the Government\u2019s policy; does the Minister stand by his comments made earlier this year on Climate Rescue Radio: \u201CYou ask me by what date New Zealand would be carbon neutral. I think you\u2019ll find that becomes clear over the next 6 months.\u201D; if so, was this draft strategy not an opportune time to enlighten us all, and why does it not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246d34e57d59842adbb6e2d6bfdd16abc\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The idea of the Energy Strategy is to move this country towards a position of carbon neutrality. We have no difficulty in aspiring to a commitment and no difficulty committing to an aspiration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a76c90cd75ad4d6f920fe963e5694fb3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that page 26 of the strategy states: \u201Cusing renewable electricity in place of new fossil-fuel-based generation need not make prices higher, provided economic renewable projects can gain consent and are built.\u201D; and does he see the irony in that statement, given his Government\u2019s track record of failed consents for renewable energy projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d4bb8d91d442389d60e1f74f74dca4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022974be292133a4a28a506fbf66a4733ef\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his press release on the draft Energy Strategy raise the question as to whether carbon neutrality is feasible, then not answer but say that the best we can do is take one of \u201Cseveral pathways available to achieve significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions over the long term,\u201D; and how far out does he think the \u201Clong term\u201D is for carbon neutrality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b7c05c42d834abfa7f041089481c209\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Aspirations are not built in a day, but the member should reflect on the fact that a variety of offset options are available to this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deffdb0b446a47228b051742f07151d3\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept the assertion that is being made by some energy specialists that any penalty tax on thermal generation will result in significant power increases across the board, and, if he does accept that, will he advise what he expects to achieve except placing some people on low fixed incomes in hardship positions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e9207f917b4139888bdb90d6e1bd2a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Earlier today in various media a number of commentators thought that \u201Csignificant\u201D meant a 10 or 20 percent increase in price. The Government\u2019s view is that any increase would be a small fraction of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6169017cbf41b0b72e90135d19faf8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the draft Energy Strategy not just amount to a Christmas wish-list that reads: \u201CDear Santa, it would be nice to have bio-fuels, it would be nice to have electric cars, it would be nice to have wind farms, wave technology, and carbon neutrality rather than the large lump of coal you gave us last year, which we have been busy getting rid of in our numerous coal-fired generation stations.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250dd65eeba704f3592e0926352c03616\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I did say, in answer to the member\u2019s primary question, that I did expect National to tie itself in knots. I had not expected it to take such a short time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e9ef62de554054baaabdc6766b6416\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9426fb850474587b14b5e8af42fd1a1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I must say that the way the question was framed did invite the sort of answer that was given. But I will ask the Minister whether he would like to add a suitable reference to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a437f28b2774623801254b0415eec94\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Why do I not invite the member to repeat the question and then we can all hear it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022882fdfd28e3540a4be01b10423feca3e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Is his Energy Strategy not just a wish-list, when he talks of bio-fuels, electric cars, wind farms, wave technology, and carbon neutrality, when this Government continues to be the biggest burner of coal ever in New Zealand\u2019s history?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f59f05fb491438d94fdf5bea89eb59d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is a vision for the future, and I enjoin the member to become part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba39b6a8269b42a6a633bdae22aea3ac\u0022\u003ETe Arawa\u2014Cultural Redress\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0d4716723694e9092dea106eb0ebabd\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: What is the basis for the Crown being able to confirm that any overlapping claims in relation to any item of cultural redress for Te Arawa have been addressed to its satisfaction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022f15dd98d227046ca97090e967266494f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f15dd98d227046ca97090e967266494f\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I am satisfied that the Crown followed a fair and transparent process in the Te Arawa Lakes and Te Arawa Kaihaut\u016B negotiations, ensuring that it was fully informed of all overlapping interests, and that these interests were taken properly into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223adcd555ffd54815a4d8060a1939ed8d\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that there is an intention to transfer the asset of Ng\u0101ti Whakaue, namely Whakarewarewa thermal valley, Moerangi, and Roto-a-Tamaheke cultural redress sites into the hands of Ng\u0101 Kaihaut\u016B o Te Arawa, when the asset in question is part of the Wai 533 claim\u2014the Ng\u0101ti Whakaue claim to the Waitangi Tribunal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703caaaa6f46430185f70b122abc0595\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that part of the said asset has been transferred to the 24,000 people, or is proposed to be, and that adequate provision has been made to meet any future claims of the other groups that the member referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022483e867a38e44092af04de3669b0e0e4\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What would the Minister consider to be the positive implications of the decisions to resolve a settlement by transferring the land owned by one group, who are not involved in a settlement, into the ownership of another, who are involved in a negotiated settlement with the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c9794d2065b4bc3b5f502c7a9f7b8e4\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept the member\u2019s assertion that that is what is taking place. I would certainly tell the member that I think the positive outcome of this process is that the 24,000 claimants can proceed and get on with the positive development that is their clear aspiration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998be228dbba4e03b50e616a7b028a99\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What possible redress could a collective such as Ng\u0101ti Whakaue have if their resources are commandeered out of their hands, hap\u016B relations are interfered with, and a fresh grievance is caused, all in the name of simply settling a grievance by another group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022653b7f37e77a401f92bd046687b4562c\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said already, I do not accept the member\u2019s assertion, but of course what is open to Ng\u0101ti Whakaue, as to others who have not yet settled, is in due course to properly appoint mandated representatives to negotiate with the Crown. I am confident that that is what will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c27e9b02ea4d4621a874c44433f0def0\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: How can it be that the Minister and his officials failed to address the obvious issue of overlapping claims for cultural redress when negotiating the settlement with Te Arawa, and what does he propose doing about it now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea5da537f768416f90d86711e8356da4\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the member\u2019s assertion is fundamentally incorrect. The Crown did not fail to address overlapping claims. One cannot settle an overlapping claim until the claimant group concerned lodges a claim and has mandated negotiators. What is critically important is that those groups and those hap\u016B and iwi have the capacity to enter, in due course, into negotiations with their own mandated negotiators, and there are assets aplenty to settle such claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022815dfd3e3563443cb67bb66bda470298\u0022\u003EPrimary Health Care Strategy\u2014Goals and Progress\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6991cea05b2461495b395d36f3d9bb3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What are the goals of the Government\u2019s Primary Health Care Strategy, and what mark out of 10 would he give for progress on meeting those goals to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002276db5163cab9497e9bb97ff4b3f5e0c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276db5163cab9497e9bb97ff4b3f5e0c9\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E There are many goals. One of them is to make primary health care more affordable for all New Zealanders, and towards that goal progress is faster than was originally planned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225390268c6a9e40438a5e09e84251cdc3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept the analysis of the New Zealand Primary Health Care Strategy in the latest edition of the British Medical Journal, which says that the Government does not have a clear vision of what it wants for primary care, and that questions abound over whether the reforms have been worthwhile; and how can it be that progress in improving quality is still so hopeless after spending $1.2 billion of taxpayers\u2019 money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a53f660cec4de299070f67c17c8d78\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The recent British Medical Journal article to which the member refers, though published only recently, draws substantially on material that is several years old. For example, just over half of the bibliography material was published in 2001 or earlier. Things have moved since then, and they continue to move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d409a82f678f4d3786b135d21fe408c4\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister share the concern of Auditor-General Kevin Brady and health economist Bronwyn Howell that the limited accountability of public health organisations makes it difficult to assess whether patients are receiving the benefits intended in the Primary Health Care Strategy; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdff23d9d0bd48b28852a042f785ed07\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member may be unaware that pursuant to the roll-out of the second to last phase of the Primary Health Care Strategy on 1 July this year, a number of steps were taken by the Government and agreed contractually to address those concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220479f70a10d14e67b4e2fdfeb7127464\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister received about progress on the Primary Health Care Strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c13f7c6023a409d9de18688b04eadce\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a number of reports that primary health organisations are now moving on from the implementation phase and that real gains are being made. Thanks to the reduction in fees alone, we are now getting reports that those with the highest need for services are going to their doctor, getting treatment, and picking up their prescriptions more reliably. I note again that work to lower the cost of seeing the family doctor is opposed by the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b82cc19e694498190e86881e477486c\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister outline the impact he anticipates of having a robust national medicines strategy on his ministry\u2019s ability to better deliver on the Primary Health Care Strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf41a78a1769400084f9f656c358c63b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It seems to me that about a third of that strategy, released earlier today for discussion, particularly addresses the primary health care aspect of our New Zealand health system. I can see significant changes in the way that we deal with community pharmaceuticals and community pharmacies, and I think that the response from the public over the next few weeks, until 30 March, will be instructive in helping the Government to work out how to better improve medicine management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022521fdd61838046eb8ac9b66fccf8aa14\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister telling the House that a report written in the British Medical Journal published on 9 December, co-written by an adviser to the Government and Treasury, is seriously out of date; and what did he mean when he told Cabinet that progress towards the strategy\u2019s aim of improving coordination between primary care and hospitals is \u201Cstill weak\u201D, despite spending $1.2 billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224865655bf1aa416ba87a6d9a2fa4c36f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The answers to those two questions are \u201CYes\u201D and \u201CPrecisely what I said.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6dffd5357934d52a960f2f080cdc4b0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister\u2014seeing that this is the last question time for 2006\u2014whether, because primary health care quickly shades sometimes into secondary health care problems, Pharmac received advice from its cancer treatments subcommittee that Herceptin should have a low priority for funding; and is there not a conflict of interests here, where the advisers\u2014or adviser\u2014who recommended against the public funding of Herceptin stand to make profits out of making it available privately as private practitioners, and then on top of that the Government charges GST in such circumstances? Is he aware of that; if he is, does he propose to do something about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e92feacddf0d48e09af43e56b8292817\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I need to answer that question from memory, so there is that caveat. From memory, the recommendation of the cancer treatments subcommittee, the original group of people who looked at it, was that it was not a low but a low-medium priority. Secondly, the cancer treatments subcommittee is obliged to look not at cost-effectiveness but at effectiveness only, and the Pharmacology and Therapeutics Advisory Committee, which then looked at cost-effectiveness, made a similar recommendation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226707a95ead24cbc94313b67221dbbec\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in his $1.2 billion funding for the Primary Health Care Strategy he has funded the Care Plus programme, which has an objective of providing care in the community for people with chronic illnesses, like diabetes and heart disease, to keep them out of hospital; and can he explain why an evaluation of this programme shows that being enrolled as Care Plus patients actually increases hospital admissions by 40 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c58e6fb3d0684291b24f9e30839f9750\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member continues to confuse and/or delude himself. The Care Plus programme was originally devised by the sector itself. [Interruption] The member may wish to listen. [Interruption] The member does not wish to listen, so should I give an answer if he does not wish to listen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c75d6afb4834678ba21c2d0568acc78\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please, members. Sandra Goudie has a loud voice. It is creating disorder. The member is on her last warning. Other members in the Chamber wish to hear the Minister\u2019s answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237aea3ac60b3460d853b5515c6aba948\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would say to the member that Care Plus was originally devised by the industry\u2014in other words, by folk from the Independent Practitioners Association Council. It was then instituted, as amended by the Ministry of Health. The uptake amongst primary health organisations exceeds 80 percent. There are, however, problems with it, so the Care Plus programme has been under review. The review is coming forth to the Government presently. Changes will be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec6655b950de4eb49362994d8ffc1a70\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: If the programme is a success, can the Minister explain why a programme that is designed to keep people out of hospital actually increases the likelihood of those people being admitted to hospital, and is that not exactly what the British Medical Journal was reflecting: that this Government has no idea of what it wants to achieve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0adb513aab3498fb0fceb8395d75637\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes it up as he goes along. If I may be blunt, the member needs to decide whether he intends to be command and control and prescriptive, which is what his question implies, or whether he wishes to get rid of the Primary Health Care Strategy in its entirety and double doctors\u2019 fees for New Zealanders, which is what National\u2019s policy currently states.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229193c1c6b77e44b5a09bdfbdda9d7f72\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister explain the disconnection between New Zealand\u2019s apparently improved access to general practitioners and our record of access to elective surgery and hospital care, as reported in the Health Affairs policy journal, where long waiting times are reported\u2014a frightening 85 percent of the time worse than those in Australia, Canada, the US, the Netherlands, Germany, and the UK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd0d1e5a5064cea8249372428332fe1\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: That refers to research that was carried out earlier this year. In September of this year, 8 years after the policy was originally announced by National, most district health boards finally became compliant with the policy of successive Governments, which is to provide service within 26 weeks to folk who are entered into the elective surgical system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e103d3c2b174092849478ec24abf378\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the next extra dollar of health spending should be spent under the Primary Health Care Strategy, where the Government has no idea of what it wants to achieve, or would he prefer to put the money towards reducing cancer waiting times, now that a report out in the last few hours shows that waiting times for radiation therapy at Palmerston North Hospital have now stretched to 18 weeks\u201418 weeks, Minister\u2014four times the recommended safe period for treatment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b6e67bdcce49f0b5a57e6b8e2a63ad\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because this Government did not go to the last election with reckless\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fb65f4979604b7b8fe16e6370c4ff6b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is very hard to hear, with constant interjections. The member has asked his question. Please let us hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225159fe03cd13447a883a59051551604a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because the Labour Party went to the election last year without having reckless tax cuts on its mind, we do not need to concern ourselves with how we spend an extra dollar. We can concern ourselves with how we spend\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271145b77a74c413f90a0bedd3d9b904c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Down at this end of the House we can barely hear any of the answers, because members of one particular party in the back bench are shouting at the top of their voices. I suggest you give them an early Christmas present or an early holiday, and ask them to remove themselves from the House, because, frankly, they have had every possible warning. We are coming now to the last of our questions; they have taken no warnings at all and are carrying on in the same way as before. They have been in Parliament only 5 minutes, so what is special about them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf45f149e664bf19fef2a08abbd8d12\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have sympathy with the member\u2019s point. I hate to say this, but it is the back row. Would you please keep your interventions minimal for the rest of this session. I ask the Minister to repeat his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0d9c94c92774490b53526ec55c00177\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: In brief, this Government does not have reckless tax cuts on its mind, and as a result does not have to worry about how to spend one extra dollar. We have lots of money to put into health, and we are spending it well and wisely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022194b0435fd724007ba662aafdb715468\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a number of documents. The first is the analysis from the latest edition of the British Medical Journal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c526758ea3428cb64622a799f8ddee\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3465ead451e4bc79689a0791da4e801\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Secondly, I seek leave to table the report, which the Minister said was soon to be released, into the review of the implementation of Care Plus that shows that it increases one\u2019s chance of going to hospital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c8dd8fc78374009ab5f60a4e3416348\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b18ac985b2649c187f65a93c5fa0b75\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Thirdly, I seek leave to table a report out this afternoon that shows that waiting times for cancer radiation therapy in Palmerston North are now at 18 weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232467580c0f14361ba8609f0a532cbb7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221520abae388342a0abb689414a55d9f9\u0022\u003EMedicine and Dentistry\u2014Education Standards\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228860e5f95af64516a6f9076e64adbe8d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: What is the Government doing to support excellence in medicine and dentistry education and training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa4f9bd6b3504fcbaf91d9ef7fc60d16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa4f9bd6b3504fcbaf91d9ef7fc60d16\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E I have announced $24.6 million of additional annual funding for undergraduate medicine and dentistry education and training from next year. The increase in funding will support excellence in medicine and dentistry education and training, including the development and expansion of curricula to ensure that they are up to date and world-class.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e774e80599e4e6aab238a3f9dabfc81\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: How will this package assist in addressing the challenges relating to health care provision in rural areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc1620c316254e5785d98ddc5d9fa244\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The package specifically includes support to expand training for future general practitioners in rural areas, which has been identified as needing development. This complements work recently announced by my colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor to increase support for rural midwives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014ca49c39a54335b9646048b30f1c45\u0022\u003EJo Goodhew\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has the Minister made towards funding rural immersion experience for medical students in an attempt to address the general practitioner workforce crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227274eeb378a042fd822fdfc737ce5bd4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated, this very substantial amount of increased funding is related to discussions with both the University of Otago and the University of Auckland around increasing activities in relation to the training of rural general practitioners. The University of Otago, of course, has been leading in that respect for a number of years. We would like to see the University of Auckland come up to at least the same level as the University of Otago in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f18a92182a3a4d35be5c8d09de68c066\u0022\u003EIngram Report\u2014Scope\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6d8eeeb6f0a440aad247fb0ef748bae\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she still maintain that the Ingram report was \u201Cvery comprehensive and thorough\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002203c9e66562ed497c81b1c94e48b79646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203c9e66562ed497c81b1c94e48b79646\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ccd6544dbb349a0a19638e69dd3cafd\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What communication did the Prime Minister have with her then Minister of Immigration, the Hon Paul Swain, when she received the letter from whistleblower Keith Williams dated 3 August 2005 detailing Taito Phillip Field\u2019s deal with failed asylum seeker Sunan Siriwan and stating that if Siriwan \u201Cwent to Samoa for 3 months to tile Mr Field\u2019s house\u201D, he would be given a work permit after 3 months by the New Zealand Immigration Service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad58b0db6154b90b98f17926299f037\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: None. I understand that the letter was received and acknowledged by my office and sent on to the Minister of Immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223177d4af2e5e48b98b1746ac79061cd9\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What discussion, if any, did the Prime Minister have with Ministers Phil Goff and Paul Swain, when the letter written to her by whistleblower Keith Williams dated 3 August 2005 not only detailed the secret agreement between Taito Phillip Field and Sunan Siriwan but also pointed out that both her then Minister of Justice, Phil Goff, and then Minister of Immigration, Paul Swain, had met Siriwan while he was working on the floor at Taito Phillip Field\u2019s house in Samoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f44b76faab4b78acca845b6767e866\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have advised the member that the letter was received in my office, acknowledged there, and sent on to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3d38d8896d541d1a0f5d0453f826c63\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Prime Minister reconcile her statement made to the House on 30 August this year that Dr Ingram did not raise with officials a request to provide legal advice for a key witness with the statement made by the head of her department, Maarten Wevers, to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that not only had Dr Ingram made such an approach to see whether the Crown would pay legal costs for Mr Keith Williams, the original whistleblower on matters covered in the Ingram inquiry, but her department head also knew that Keith Williams would not give evidence without legal support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796be9a3d8134455b5e47414fd5956ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the member is aware, Dr Ingram did not make that request to Maarten Wevers. He sought advice from the Solicitor-General as to whether Mr Williams\u2019 expenses could be covered, and the Solicitor-General advised that that was not normal practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edaf9e877c0e41b19de1dc846d4c1ffe\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister made any attempt to discover why her former Minister of Immigration the Hon Paul Swain made\u2014according to information released under the Official Information Act\u2014absolutely no attempt whatsoever to discuss with his Associate Minister, Damien O\u2019Connor, issues relating to Taito Phillip Field\u2019s involvement with failed asylum seekers, after those issues were raised with the Hon Paul Swain on more than one occasion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba01645c86b94cf09dc48a37e10dd5f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Frankly, I have not. This matter was inquired into thoroughly by Dr Ingram, and he found that the Ministers had acted properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297330533175942cb9a245479b38dfd18\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document, released under the Official Information Act, from the Minister of Immigration that points out that the former Minister of Immigration the Hon Paul Swain made no attempt\u2014or at least there is no record whatsoever of his making any attempt\u2014to communicate to his Associate Minister the issues he knew of surrounding Taito Phillip Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1dfa333bd8a44208e01f241b5728b62\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278c24d858ce34dfcb89a7772a7f30531\u0022\u003ENutrition\u2014Children\u0027s Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f9bca89c14d4f1bb61c168752437aae\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What progress has been made in improving the nutrition of New Zealand children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00226eb52b58ff8c4792adade74ddba45e76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eb52b58ff8c4792adade74ddba45e76\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Further progress was made just yesterday, with the Labour-led Government signing an agreement with Coca-Cola Amatil and Frucor Beverages Ltd to remove all full-sugar fizzy and energy drinks from secondary schools by 2009. This agreement takes 1.1 million litres of full-sugar beverages out of schools over the next 3 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a27ec9b1ee2478085164637388aa76c\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: How does yesterday\u2019s agreement position New Zealand internationally on the issue of nutrition in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f63d2803ded1435f8db38a52c13e7033\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand can once again call itself a world leader in the fight against obesity. Yesterday\u2019s agreement is the first in the world to be negotiated directly between Government and industry leaders. I thank Coca-Cola and Frucor for their leadership, and I hope others in the food industry will be similarly inspired to act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1156bc8821a49da9643e004ffa57763\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a press release by the Obesity Action Coalition expressing its disappointment that the Minister has not followed his colleagues in France and the United Kingdom by removing all fizzy drinks, rather than allowing diet fizzy drinks to remain in vending machines in all schools in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022472e80cf891442ff832ff2f4b20e0544\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b56a4406a54925a603315f3aecfc10\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I also seek leave to table a press release by the Dental Association expressing its disappointment that Diet Coke will allow dental hygiene to be undermined in our schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f83d287d4ad4b8b99e036709942f0f1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002261bbe2e0fec04d378805d98a9dbb249c\u0022\u003EAsia\u2014Trade Opportunities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a348829263d54728a5ad50f2498faf98\u0022\u003EMARK BLUMSKY (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Is he satisfied that by showcasing trade opportunities for New Zealand exporters in Hong Kong, China, and the wider North Asia region, he is on target to meet his objective of increasing exports to the region by $25 million over 3 years, now that 1 year has passed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002206be6e418ab64162896eb450947af16c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206be6e418ab64162896eb450947af16c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. We are on track to achieve the targeted net economic benefit of $25 million to the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5772d5c7d3c4193ac1a261e44f3e61a\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that his Government has the skills to oversee its multimillion-dollar retail investment in Hong Kong, the New Zealand Focus centre, when feedback from many of the suppliers states that sales have been negligible, that inquiries from China have been minimal, and that a significant number of those suppliers have given up and removed their products from the store after only 1 year of operation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022216aed56d036414c80dc330e88630f70\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that a number of firms that have graduated from the organisation now have good channels into China and no longer use it, as a result of the very good start they have had. I also note that this member\u2019s mate missed out on the contract and has been whingeing ever since.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b77641238444be79afb219aee1a5795\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any other export initiatives that might be of benefit to New Zealand exporters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a860178f3ed484a9b4275ef69aa51eb\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am. This Government is investing $33.75 million to increase New Zealand\u2019s export capacity for Export Year 2007, which is something that has been welcomed by everybody but the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b79e80af76c8438fa52211b38648ef93\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Why did New Zealand Trade and Enterprise appoint Extra Rations Ltd to run the Government retail store in Hong Kong, the New Zealand Focus centre, and give it $1.3 million per year, as well as $1.4 million to establish the store, when that organisation was ranked last in New Zealand Trade and Enterprise\u2019s evaluation in the category of retail experience; and has he been satisfied with Extra Ration\u2019s performance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022898d67ac44504db0ae799e8b32dc05c5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have not been satisfied with its performance, but I will point out to the member that it topped its evaluation, which was independent, and it beat his mate\u2019s firm, hands down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad631adb39e45e081e0cf1bff455c04\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when New Zealand Trade and Enterprise drew up the criteria for retail manager for the Government retail store in Hong Kong, as well as including criteria such as long-term strategic vision and management capability, was there not a criterion related to being just too busy, when that was used as the reason that the retail manager of Extra Rations, so loudly lauded by the Minister, has just quit after barely 1 year in the job\u2014being too busy to do the job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022030f49988de5409a85cc3126f7d1e3b1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The thing I know is that that company won an evaluation. It beat the company that that member used to be a director of, and he should stop whingeing about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb79f3b208ec4b0ca8cc1116c08be529\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Government take into account, when it selected the retail product for its retail store in Hong Kong, the market prices for the product it selected when, for example, a whole shelf in the store is dedicated to noodles costing HK$30 a pack, when similar noodles can be bought in neighbouring stores for only HK$5; it is a bit like coals\u2014or should I say noodles\u2014to Newcastle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022850e58843c394f368480a6070d59c008\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Given the changes that have happened opposite, it is very clear that members know nothing about value added.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d59406ec88942729dabe3ca6c08e689\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members will be leaving the Chamber for the rest of the day unless they are quiet. The Minister may have thought he addressed the question, but he was a bit obscure for the rest of us. Would he please answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ebb41ae3e1470f922a45d7f9486aa2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike members opposite, given their recent changes, we recognise added value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b9e9d203c54bcda4d2fa711cbf8625\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The answer you had from the Minister was exactly the same choice of words that you previously ruled did not address the question. It was a very serious question about how marketing noodles in Hong Kong might help New Zealand\u2019s trade interests, and the Minister should have to justify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226cd4b7e9d1743d39f490eeac910a905\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Having had time, I understand now what the Minister was trying to say. He is being subtle; it would be easier if he could be clearer. Would the member please spell it out in words of one syllable for those members in the Chamber who cannot understand the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e813c72a16284d02b382912248bc9fde\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is better for New Zealand to have high-value goods being sold and to have additional profits. That is called value-adding, which is the opposite of what has happened in the National Party, where a useless leader has been traded in for one who is even worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231ebf0120f094fa1acd9993bba9156d4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090e1d97b2c74f85b327f3d7c0ede20b\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Was the new company that is replacing Extra Rations to run the Government retail store in Hong Kong, New Zealand Products Hong Kong Ltd, one of the original three companies shortlisted by New Zealand Trade and Enterprise; if not, having just replaced Extra Rations, why was no contract tendered for that position\u2014the Minister is obviously very unaware of his favourite Extra Rations not being now the operator for this store?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a533c75118146dfa8925ab08a7c1764\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware; I told the member earlier that I was not satisfied with its performance. That was one of the reasons it went.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022349677993ce54ef4a3f191c444a82ba6\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6b1bf3c67b741be8743446362440824\u0022\u003EDraft Energy Strategy\u2014Release\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00229ef8eebfad8748beb36d37eead8e24ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ef8eebfad8748beb36d37eead8e24ca\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Gerry Brownlee seeking to debate under Standing Order 380 the release of the Government\u2019s draft Energy Strategy. The announcement by the Minister of Energy, David Parker, of the draft strategy is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility. However, under Standing Order 380(2)(c), for the Speaker to allow debate the matter must also require the immediate attention of the House. According to Speaker\u2019s ruling 165/4, there must be an element of urgency to warrant the business of the House being set aside. The announcement of the Minister of Energy makes it clear that a series of long-term programmes are being developed. Submissions have been called for on the draft strategy and will close on 31 March 2007. The Minister has indicated that strong input is required to finalise and implement the strategy. The outcome is not yet clear. The matter raised is an important one, and there will undoubtedly be other parliamentary opportunities to discuss the finalised strategy as decisions are taken in 2007. In the circumstances there is no need for an urgent debate on the subject today. The application is accordingly declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f27eeb1c63a4264a4a8e97de9833f5f\u0022\u003EValedictory Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae30e07605aa4e3dbc0d8854a81ce844\u0022\u003EValedictory Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022 data-id=\u002269d48ab3c46c46318729caff6b93e9c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269d48ab3c46c46318729caff6b93e9c3\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Today I come to the end of my parliamentary career just 4\u00BD years after it began. I well remember telling my then press secretary at the Reserve Bank, Paul Jackman, that I was going to resign from the Reserve Bank to seek election in the 2002 election. He told me that he had never envied me my job as Governor of the Reserve Bank, but he envied me the chance of being a member of Parliament. \u201CBeing a member of Parliament\u201D, he said, \u201Cis a very rare privilege, perhaps the highest privilege that your countrymen can confer on you. I envy you.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI agree with him. It has been a great privilege. I admit that initially I found it a bit of a shock. I recall shortly after arriving in this august institution telling my loyal secretary, Anne Small, that I was going off for half an hour to get my hair cut. \u201CHave you got leave from the whips?\u201D, she said. When I was ranked third in the caucus and given responsibility for the finance portfolio, I had this dopey notion that my office would be somewhere close to that of the leader, when it was, of course, miles away in the outer reaches of the National Party empire. It took me a little while to learn how offices were allocated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EBut I have had a fantastic opportunity: an opportunity to meet people all over this remarkable country from all walks of life, from every cultural and religious background; to visit some quite extraordinary companies and organisations doing things about which all New Zealanders should be very proud; to meet with and gain respect for politicians of all parties in this House\u2014people like Peter Dunne, Jim Sutton, Tariana Turia, and Rodney Hide\u2014and although I disagree strongly with many of their policies, I respect the ability of both Helen Clark and Michael Cullen. I will be eternally grateful for the opportunity I have had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI have had a lot of fantastic opportunities during the course of my career to date: the opportunity to work on the problems of economic development with Robert McNamara and Lester Pearson; to contribute to the development of a modern money market in New Zealand in the 1970s; to chair the committee of three that designed our GST, and other committees that helped to make the New Zealand tax system one of the most efficient in the world; the opportunity while at the Reserve Bank to put on our banknotes four remarkable New Zealanders\u2014Ed Hillary, Kate Sheppard, Apirana Ngata, and Lord Rutherford\u2014and the opportunity to reduce inflation from the double digits of the 1980s to less than 3 percent in the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EBut I resigned from the Reserve Bank at the end of April 2002 because I was deeply concerned about where the country was getting to\u2014or perhaps, more accurately\u2014not getting to. Keeping inflation under control was very important, but it was not enough to lift living standards and prevent the exodus of tens of thousands of Kiwis across the Tasman and across the world. Keeping inflation under control was not enough to improve the quality of our school system and prevent a quarter of our children coming out of a decade of schooling barely able to read, write, or do basic arithmetic. Keeping inflation under control was not enough to get hundreds of thousands of people out of the poverty trap that the welfare system had become. Keeping inflation under control was not enough to fix the hospital system and give all New Zealanders access to the kind of health care they need. Keeping inflation under control was not enough to keep New Zealanders safe from those who would prey on them and their property. Keeping inflation under control was not enough to ensure that all New Zealanders, regardless of race, are treated equally under the law. And those are the things that desperately needed to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003ELooking back over the last 4\u00BD years I obviously have some regrets. I never made it to Government. I never changed a single law. I regret that my views on the Treaty of Waitangi were misunderstood by many as an attack on M\u0101ori, instead of a serious attempt to deal with issues that, if not dealt with effectively, can hugely damage the future of both M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders. I regret that my views on the urgent need for reform of the welfare system were misunderstood as an attack on those who depend on that system, instead of a serious attempt to free hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders from the shackles of dependency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI made some mistakes, like sending a letter to the dean of Christchurch Cathedral declining his invitation to speak and making disparaging remarks about Helen Clark\u2019s attitude to religion and the institution of marriage. Although I did not personally write that letter, I did sign it and I take full responsibility for it. Given all the circumstances, that was not one of my most brilliant letters. Or like confusing friend and foe alike by voting for the first reading of the civil union legislation, and against the second reading on the grounds that such a major change in our social institutions should require ratification in a referendum, while making it clear that I would vote for civil unions in such a referendum. Or like remaining silent when the National Party caucus decided, under previous leadership, that had National been in Government, we would have supported Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States in the invasion of Iraq, even though I had serious misgivings about the wisdom of that course of action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EBut I also look back with considerable satisfaction. Democracy works best when the Government is held to account by a strong Opposition. When I arrived in Parliament in July 2002 the National Party caucus was a much diminished and rather demoralised group of 27. Following last year\u2019s election the National Party caucus was a greatly invigorated team of 48 enormously talented and highly motivated people with a huge diversity of backgrounds. New people, like Chris Finlayson, Tim Groser, Nathan Guy, Jonathan Coleman, Jo Goodhew, Kate Wilkinson, and Jackie Blue, the gene pool from which John Key will be able to choose a Cabinet is as good as that enjoyed by any Opposition party in many a year. Of course, last year\u2019s National Party vote, the best in any election since 1990, was the work of many of my colleagues and of the party organisation. It was certainly not solely my effort, but I believe I can share the credit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI also take satisfaction that I have made some contribution to the public debate about the economy. There is now a widespread recognition that we continue to fall behind Australia\u2014not rapidly, but relentlessly\u2014and that 7 years after Helen Clark talked about raising New Zealand back into the top half of the OECD within a decade, we have not moved up one rung on that ladder. There is even widespread acceptance that reducing the tax burden on hard-working New Zealanders needs to be one part of a package of measures to fix this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI take some satisfaction that I was able to advance the discussion on relations between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori in New Zealand, and I managed to convert the town of \u014Crewa from a place to a date. So people no longer talk about north of \u014Crewa or south of \u014Crewa, but about pre-\u014Crewa and post-\u014Crewa. Almost everybody now pays at least lip-service to the principle that there should be one law for all New Zealanders, and that the Treaty of Waitangi established the basis for a single sovereign State, providing everybody with the same rights and privileges\u2014not some kind of dual sovereignty. Almost everybody now accepts that having the resolution of Treaty settlements drag on and on, decade after decade, is seriously damaging to race relations in New Zealand, and encourages M\u0101ori New Zealanders to believe\u2014against all the evidence\u2014that their economic well-being depends on the size of a compensation cheque. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EMost people now accept that there is no longer any justification for separate, racially based electoral rolls, with the discussion focused on when, rather than whether, those separate rolls should be abolished. And most people recognise that affirmative action of the kind that sees some New Zealanders getting access to university courses with lower grades than those required of other New Zealanders is demeaning and patronising, and engenders anger and ill will on the part of those not so preferred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EWhen I was approached to stand in the 2002 election, one of the people I talked to was David Caygill. He encouraged me to stand. He warned me that National was likely to lose the 2002 election, but he said that even in Opposition I might have some influence on the national discussion, on the national debate. And so it has proved to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI even take some satisfaction on issues where I demonstrably failed. Shortly after entering politics my son Alan persuaded me to read Lynley Hood\u2019s book, A City Possessed, that tells the story of the conviction of Peter Ellis in the early 1990s. I found it profoundly disturbing. Of course, I do not know whether Peter Ellis is guilty, but Lynley Hood\u2019s book raises very serious questions about the conviction. I take satisfaction that Katherine Rich and I were able to mount a substantial petition calling on the Government to set up a commission of inquiry into the matter, and to have it signed by 2 former prime ministers, 11 law professors, 11 Queen\u2019s Counsel, and a great many prominent New Zealanders\u2014including members from most of the parties in this House. We failed to get an inquiry established; Peter Ellis remains convicted. But, hopefully, there is at least some additional awareness of the dangers of convicting on the basis on which Peter Ellis was convicted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI want to thank all of those who have helped me over the last 4\u00BD years: my parliamentary colleagues, and especially my deputy, Gerry Brownlee, my parliamentary adviser, Murray McCully, and all of those who supported me through thick and thin; my secretary, Anne Small; those in the National leader\u2019s office, especially Richard Long and Wayne Eagleson, my chiefs of staff before and after the election; my special assistant in the 2 years prior to the election, Bryan Sinclair; senior press secretaries Jason Ede and Kevin Taylor; those who helped with parliamentary questions, Phil De Joux and Sarah Boyle; and those who helped to deal with mountains of letters\u2014and, yes, some emails\u2014especially Janie Young. My thanks go to all those other staff who have helped me: security guards, messengers, telephonists, librarians, VIP drivers, Bellamy\u2019s staff, and many more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003ELet me acknowledge here the tremendous support I received from the National Party\u2019s board, especially president Judy Kirk and general managers Steven Joyce and Greg Sheehan. I thank John Ansell for his award-winning billboard and TV advertising campaign. My thanks go to all the many thousands of National Party volunteers all over the country, who collect subs, run raffles, distribute pamphlets, put up billboards, and contribute to the policy development process. I am not sure whether I want to thank members of the press gallery\u2014sometimes I think I do, and at other times I am not so sure. But I certainly respect most members of the gallery, and I have developed a lasting friendship with several. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003ESpecial thanks must go to my wife, Je Lan, to my family\u2014my children, and my sister\u2014and to my close friends. Only the families of those who have been in the heat of the political battle know just how much pain and how much stress families suffer as a result of the careers we in this House freely choose. Without their unstinting support through some pretty difficult times, I would not have survived\u2014I say thank you to you all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E With just 4 million people, New Zealand is not a large country, but it is a great country. It is a country of incredible natural beauty, a country where it no longer feels awkward to sing the national anthem in two languages, a country where the son of a radical Presbyterian minister and a milliner can grow up to be the leader of the National Party, a country where I can watch my 13-year-old Eurasian son playing happily with a dozen of his friends and count amongst them two Chinese, one Korean, one Sri Lankan, one Eurasian, six P\u0101keh\u0101, and the grandson of a M\u0101ori activist\u2014all of them New Zealanders. It is a country that has produced people who have succeeded on the world stage, such as Ed Hillary, Peter Blake, Katherine Mansfield, Ernest Rutherford, Kiri Te Kanawa, and Peter Jackson. It is a country where we do not need to bribe public officials to get a fair hearing. It is a country where we absolutely take it for granted that an election will be held roughly every 3 years and that a Government will be elected without bloodshed and with the army safely in its barracks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EAs Chris Trotter remarked after a pleasant dinner while observing the Whangapar\u0101oa Peninsula a few years back: \u201CNew Zealand is an unqualified success. We are free, we are at peace, and we are rich in all the things that matter.\u201D All that is true. But it is also true that this great country is at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EAt a time when a trained mind has never been more important for earning a decent income than it is today, more than 40 percent of adult New Zealanders are unable to read and write well enough to perform adequately in a modern economy, with more illiterate people coming out of our schools every year. At a time when Government spending on health care has never been higher\u2014either in dollars or as a share of the national cake\u2014we have hospitals up and down the land asking those with serious heart conditions to wait, and wait. At a time when successive Governments have made a serious attempt to right the wrongs of the past, we have a minority of M\u0101ori New Zealanders determined to assert a view of the Treaty utterly at variance with the needs of a modern democratic society where every person is equal under the law, with nobody more equal than anybody else. At a time of near record export prices, we are still spending more overseas than we are earning overseas, thereby adding $40 million every day to our already huge external debt. At a time of almost unprecedented buoyancy in the domestic economy, we have some 300,000 adults of working age\u2014to say nothing of their tens of thousands of children\u2014living on a benefit and on incomes well below those in Australia in almost every walk of life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EIf, as seems entirely possible, we lose an increasing proportion of our most able to the bright lights of Sydney, London, and New York, there must be a serious danger that the pleasant society that Chris Trotter rightly praised will gradually unwind\u2014with a whimper rather than a bang, but unwind nevertheless. I want something much better: a society where every child is loved, where every child has a good education, where every person is free to pursue his or her dreams\u2014provided they do not cause nightmares for others or expect other people to fund their dreams\u2014where the State protects the natural environment and provides security for all, and where all can live at peace, irrespective of race or religious belief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI do not mean to imply that the dangers we now face are solely the responsibility of the present Government. The dangers have been growing for some years. But I am absolutely satisfied that the track we are presently on will not deal with those dangers. We need to re-establish the principle of personal responsibility, reaffirm the importance of family and community, and turn our back on the politics of envy\u2014where the party that wins is the one that can take $25,000 off a hard-working Kiwi and spread it around to win the maximum number of votes among those who are not so hard-working. I am optimistic about New Zealand and about New Zealanders. I have no doubt that when the issues are clearly explained, they will support the policies needed to ensure that New Zealand once again becomes a place to which Kiwis want to return. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003ELet me end by wishing my successor, John Key, and his team every success in promoting those policies that will be of lasting benefit to all New Zealanders. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf487cd452834965b1b6bc6c43ded4df\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2005/06 Financial Review) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb9999a419244696926bbbe91ff07330\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00226f4be235bf744c0dbe4979115925c207\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f4be235bf744c0dbe4979115925c207\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2005/06 Financial Review) Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5c81d63f0af4769bd03e2b261f11a83\u0022\u003ETherapeutic Products and Medicines Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d2341dec4e642d8a6f180a5ffb392fa\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022a59dc321378240768461a37406a8e4e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a59dc321378240768461a37406a8e4e2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister for Food Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Government Administration Committee, that the committee report finally to the House on or before 30 April 2007, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 192 and 195(1)(b) and (c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe bill is an omnibus bill. Parts 1 to 5 establish a new joint trans-Tasman regulatory scheme for the regulation of therapeutic products. Parts 6 and 7 repeal the Medicines Act 1981 and regulations made under that Act and replace them with updated legislation for controls on medicines, such as the scheduling of medicines, licensing of pharmacies, and prescribing rights, that apply after medicines have been approved for the market and are in the domestic supply and distribution chain. My colleague the Hon Pete Hodgson will speak to the new domestic medicine provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIn moving the first reading I would like to focus on the key aspects of the proposed joint regulatory scheme. This is, clearly, very detailed legislation, but underpinning it are some very simple, very clear, and very significant principles. These principles include the protection of public safety; the creation of a world-class organisation of international standing, effectiveness, and credibility; and the protection of New Zealand sovereignty and norms of parliamentary accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI refer now to the agreement and joint scheme. On 10 December 2003 New Zealand and Australia signed an agreement committing the two countries to establishing a joint agency for the regulation of therapeutic products. This signing stemmed from work that began in the 1990s under the National Government. The primary objective in concluding the agreement was to safeguard public health and safety by establishing a world-class agency to regulate therapeutic products. The agreement also aims to reduce barriers to trans-Tasman trade and to enhance Australia\u2019s and New Zealand\u2019s profile and influence internationally. The bill I am bringing to the House today gives effect to that agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EEarly next year the Australian Government will release an exposure draft of its own implementing legislation. The preparation of the Australian bill has been undertaken in conjunction with the development of this New Zealand bill, with the intention that both bills should ultimately be passed by the respective Parliaments at much the same time. This gives me an opportunity to acknowledge the commitment and assistance I have received from the Australian Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health and Ageing, the Hon Chris Pyne, in this key initiative for both countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis is not the first time this House has considered the agreement and the scheme it anticipates. There have been two Health Committee reports that have discussed the agreement, an initial inquiry in late 2003, and a subsequent examination of the agreement following its referral to the Health Committee by the chairperson of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. The Health Committee recommended that the proposed therapeutic products bill cover a number of matters, and I am pleased to record that the bill addresses the matters raised by the committee, particularly in respect of governance and accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe joint regulatory scheme will cover the regulation of the manufacture, supply, import, export, and promotion of therapeutic products; the setting of standards in relation to the quality, safety, and efficacy or performance of therapeutic products; post-market monitoring of therapeutic products; and enforcement of the joint scheme\u2019s requirements. Responsibility for regulating aspects of the therapeutic products covered by the joint scheme will be transferred from Medsafe to a new agency, the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Authority. A two-member ministerial council will be established, comprising the New Zealand Minister of Health and the Australian Federal Minister of Health, and it will be charged with the overall accountability of the performance of the authority. Each Minister will be accountable to his or her own Parliament, just as the Minister would be if the body were a domestic body. Reporting to the council will be a five-member board appointed by the council and accountable to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIn terms of international and trans-Tasman significance, in a broader context the establishment of the joint regulatory scheme and agency is a flagship in our relationship with Australia and the development of a single economic market. The new scheme will be a significant enhancement of closer economic relations with Australia and of trans-Tasman regulatory cooperation, consistent with the CER Agreement of 1983 and the Trans-Tasman Mutual Recognition Arrangement agreed in 1996. The Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Authority will be the first example of a true trans-Tasman authority. Contrary to what I believe is deliberate misinformation peddled by Green MP Sue Kedgley on Radio New Zealand today, the new authority will not be an offshore entity based in Australia; the new authority will be an agency based both in New Zealand and in Australia, with head offices in Wellington and Canberra. The new authority will replace Medsafe in New Zealand and the Therapeutic Goods Administration in Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe establishment of the authority will see New Zealand\u2019s profile amongst the international therapeutic community increase. This will facilitate the export of therapeutic products beyond Australia. It will offer more to other key regulators in terms of information sharing and will act as a potential partner in mutual recognition agreements with other key regulators, such as those in the US, Canada, and Europe. Greater regional and global influence over the development of international regulatory standards and harmonisation initiatives will also be provided. The new authority will regulate therapeutic products consistent with international best practice, which includes risk-based regulation of medical devices and complementary medicines. The joint approach aims to enable the two countries to combine their resources to ensure that the health and safety objectives are met while minimising cost to businesses and the Government. The joint scheme will also enable information sharing and an enhanced ability to retain and develop specialist technical expertise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIn the negotiations on the detail of this scheme, and in the drafting of this bill, issues have obviously arisen that have required Australia and New Zealand to reach agreed positions that acknowledge and protect the interests of both countries. One example of the success of this has been in arriving at a governance and accountability model for the authority that successfully accommodates the core requirements of both the New Zealand Crown Entities Act and the Australian equivalent, the Commonwealth Authorities and Companies Act 1997. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EAnother central issue for both countries has been to recognise and preserve the sovereignty of each country. In establishing the new authority, neither country wanted to repeat models that have been used in the past but found to be unsatisfactory in respect of sovereignty. This model is a clear and deliberate departure from the model of Food Standards Australia New Zealand, whereby New Zealand has a voice equal to the individual Australian states\u2014that is, one voice in 10. This was a scheme put in place under a National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDrafting the therapeutic products provisions of this bill has required ongoing detailed negotiation with Australia. Key to this was the recognition that it is fundamental that both countries\u2019 bills be drafted in such a way as to ensure, as near as possible, identical outcomes in a seamless scheme. The bill has been designed to accommodate, as far as possible, the two country\u2019s criminal justice systems and bodies of law, but, where necessary, New Zealand has taken a differential drafting approach. The bill accommodates some differences in the domestic settings of Australia and New Zealand in areas such as disallowance, judicial review, and merit reviews. However, there are new features, including tiered offences, and so on. The bill introduces a tool kit of lower-key options that provide an opportunity to avoid being taken to court\u2014such things as, for example, enforceable undertakings and non-compliance notices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThere is too much detail in respect of complementary medicines to be able to cover today, but I do want to touch specifically on the place of complementary medicines in the scheme. There has been a lot of uninformed and, in some cases, deliberately misleading rhetoric about the place of complementary medicines and medical devices in the scheme. With this bill now entering Parliament, I look forward to seeing that debate move to the constructive environment of the select committee and this Chamber. The regulation of medical devices and complementary medicines in New Zealand is minimal. The lack of pre-market regulatory control on medical devices or adequate control, both pre-market and post-market, on complementary medicines has been a significant gap in the New Zealand regulatory framework. Internationally, we are well out of step in both these areas. I recognise that complementary medicines are a popular choice for many consumers and are often perceived to be a safe and natural alternative to conventional medicines, but they are not risk-free. It is important that consumers are protected from complementary medicines that are not safe and are able to make an informed choice about the type of medicine they wish to use. The scheme will enhance public confidence by subjecting medical devices and complementary medicines to a regulatory scheme that provides assurance about safety and quality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe main risks with the use of complementary medicines are well documented in literature. These can include harmful ingredients, adulterated products, poor quality control during manufacture, interactions with other medicines\u2014for example, interactions between St John\u2019s wort and several prescription medicines\u2014and inadequate information to guide safe use. The joint scheme, for the first time in New Zealand, introduces risk-based regulation of complementary medicines as a subset of therapeutic products, using an approach that will enable product sponsors to gain market authorisation by self-certification against the scheme\u2019s requirements. This will enable minimum regulatory requirements to be applied to low-risk products such as complementary medicines and more stringent requirements to be applied to high-risk products such as new prescription medicines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis bill does not include rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori. There is no regulation on products prepared in a traditional way for a patient, such as r\u0101kau rongo\u0101. Commercialisation of rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori products for mass-market supply, however, would be regulated by the authority, for obvious safety reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. There is much in it. It now goes to a select committee. Can I just conclude with one remark: contrary to the remarks made by Sue Kedgley today, the managing director does not have the power to make rules. That is one more piece of misinformation that has been peddled on this bill over many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220b52eec93bd24dc99acac6b3d5704ee5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b52eec93bd24dc99acac6b3d5704ee5\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party opposes this legislation. This regime will be costly, restrictive, and is unnecessary. We are not prepared to jeopardise the viability of hundreds of small businesses, nor the choices of thousands of consumers by supporting this legislation. This legislation is a move that will cost industry and cost consumers. The Australian health products industry is one of the most highly regulated in the world, and applying its rules here will serve only to increase the cost of products, reduce consumer choice, and hurt many businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThere should be regulation of natural health products but not this bureaucratic nightmare. This is a costly regime. We know it is costly, because the only way the Government has been able to garner parliamentary support for this bill is to offer a 50 percent subsidy on those costs. If this were a low-cost regime providing the most efficient form of regulation in New Zealand, then why is the Government being forced to offer a subsidy in order to get the parliamentary votes from New Zealand First and United Future to get this legislation through?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bbf07d34dbd43c7bcda77431f96d776\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a 50 percent subsidy on animal products, which your Government passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022719e0ee1c9fc49a8ac75c06537d5ae25\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Annette King might pipe up there, but the fact is the only way this Government has been able to garner support is because of its appalling performance in offering this subsidy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EBut I will tell members the most appalling performance here, and that is the performance of Annette King as the negotiating Minister. I tell the Government that there is no point in harmonising with Australia if it is to the cost and detriment of New Zealand. Annette King has destroyed the opportunity to have a cross-party approach to the regulation of medical devices, pharmaceuticals, and natural health products in this country. She completely ignored and denied the recommendations that repeated Health Committee inquiries and reviews have made. She did not consult with any other party in this House. She has treated this bill as if it were a health bill that she could push through just on the sheer weight of her huff and bluff and numbers in the House. The fact is she did not have the support. She had the opportunity to work with other parties in this House to get a regime that would be low cost and would do the job for New Zealand, but what did this arrogant Minister do? She ignored it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis is how bad it is. In trying to justify her consultation, and in trying to justify the fact that she consulted with other parties, do members know what Annette King claimed? She said that giving a set of overheads to Richard Worth and another member of our caucus was consultation. She said she consulted with National because she gave two members of our caucus some overheads. That is what she said is consultation. The fact is, Annette King has destroyed the opportunity for a cross-party approach to develop rules and regulations that would be good for New Zealand. I cannot believe that the Prime Minister allows Annette King to negotiate such a deal that will be costly, restrictive, and unnecessary for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe want to have closer working relationships with Australia, but we are not going to do it at the cost of New Zealand business and New Zealand consumers. That should have been the bottom line. That is what we told Annette King, and that is why she will not get any support for this bill from National. She missed the opportunity to work with other parties to get a cross-party approach that would reduce costs, reduce restrictions, and provide benefits to New Zealand. There is no point in harmonising if it costs New Zealand. That is why there will be no support from National for this trans-Tasman therapeutic bill. We are opposing this bill because it is bad for New Zealand. It is selling out the interests of thousands of small consumers in New Zealand. It is selling out the interests of hundreds of businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI tell the Minister that pharmaceutical companies and natural health products companies all around New Zealand are contacting parliamentary parties to say \u201CWe oppose this legislation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224336f0ab332c4f5caa4582bdb7ef8c45\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: The member is silly. What a retrograde step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b390549a3dd54f1bbc4a928194902102\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Thousands of New Zealanders are coming forward. I tell Mrs Chadwick, the next mayoral candidate for Rotorua, what is silly. What is silly is that Labour has a Minister who had the opportunity to bring together a sensible option for the New Zealand Parliament of low cost, low restriction, and focus on the necessary. Through her arrogant disregard and her poor negotiating skills we have a plan being put to the country that will not provide what the Government says it will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee416715d99c4c8d9eced46969931969\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1fccd0c89b54535bc52cdcad86aef8b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is not. It will be costly and restrictive, and it is completely unnecessary as it is proposed. It will jeopardise many hundreds of small businesses, and it will restrict the choices of thousands of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI have to tell the Prime Minister that it is a very dangerous thing to put Annette King in charge of this bill\u2014a very dangerous thing. Annette King has not performed at all well in bringing a deal that Parliament can support. She has bought off United Future and bought off New Zealand First with this 50 percent subsidy. Do members know that people are now starting to say that the ministry is beginning to be uncertain about what this 50 percent subsidy counts for. I bet members that United Future and New Zealand First members do not know that. There is now significant debate about what the 50 percent subsidy will actually cover. We have to remember that this is the party about which John Tamihere said it can change a word here and change a word there to change the entire intent of what is being proposed. I tell New Zealand First and United Future members to be wary of anything that Annette King is telling them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis Government is missing an important opportunity to provide a regime in New Zealand that is low cost, effective, and designed to fix identifiable problems. Where is the Government on that? It is nowhere. Where is the Government on addressing the concerns stated repeatedly by the Health Committee about compliance costs? Where is the Government on addressing the concerns repeatedly stated by the Health Committee about the process and recognition of costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289fd6f2744f54434b73fdb82229fba75\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef4e8d94738a43eda739a0eddecc200d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am saying that to the Government. Name one part where it fixes the concerns; name one part of the concerns that it has fixed when it comes to this regime. We think that the Government should take on board the repeated criticism by the Health Committee and deal with compliance costs and the issues that have been raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis bill comes to this House on the back of a sordid little deal with two little parties whereby a Government that says this is a low-cost regime is being forced to subsidise it by 50 percent in order to try to garner parliamentary support. That is not a low-cost regime. It will interfere with the choices of thousands of New Zealanders. This is a Government that believes that the best way that consumers can care for themselves and take responsibility for their care is to delegate all that authority and control to the Government. That is what Government members think. They think that the best way New Zealanders can take responsibility for themselves is to delegate control and authority to the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe want a health system that encourages New Zealanders to take responsibility for their health and to exercise control over their decisions about any supplements they want to take. We do not want the Government stepping in, over-regulating, and taking control of those decisions that thousands of New Zealanders exercise every day. Every day New Zealanders are taking supplements. Every day they are trying to protect and improve their health. The National Party says that New Zealanders do not need to have prices go up, and they do not need to have unnecessary and restrictive regulation on those choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe want New Zealanders to know that the regime is low cost, not restrictive, and that their choices will be protected. But this legislation does the complete opposite. That is why, as I know the Australians will know, this Opposition has repeatedly opposed this legislation and will continue to do so. The Government has missed the opportunity to negotiate a deal that New Zealanders could be proud of because, frankly, Annette King would not listen, would not talk to anyone, and would not consult. She was captured by a few bureaucrats and that is why we have a piece of legislation that New Zealanders know is not in the interests of this country. This bill is a sell-out, and it will cost New Zealand business and consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002280284a8615b445e9820d7f203675bb5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280284a8615b445e9820d7f203675bb5b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E That was a bad call by the National Party. With the Closer Economic Relations now over 20 years old, and with the building blocks of a single economic market between Australia and New Zealand being put in place one by one, I regret that a major political party in this Parliament would turn its back on this opportunity to further cement the relationship between our two countries, despite the National leader meeting with the Prime Minister of Australia just last week. It was a bad call. It was short-term politics. It was strategically hollow. It was sad, it was shameful, and it is straightforwardly wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThen, because of the proclivities of National\u2019s health spokesperson, Tony Ryall dropped to personality politics for most of the speech. It was not about the future of our health system, not about the future of our medicines regime, not about the future of the Australia - New Zealand relationship. It was personality politics only. He misrepresented, he misquoted, he was misconstruing, he was mischief. That is all. There was no policy, just short-term political mischief. He knows it was a junk speech. It was a bad call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the work of my colleague the Hon Annette King, Minister of State Services, on this Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill, and thank her for her tireless efforts on progressing the proposed joint scheme with Australia and for her efforts to involve all political parties in this House\u2014with greater success in some areas than in others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI will focus my comments on Parts 6 and 7 of the bill, which are the parts that relate to New Zealand only. I will also comment on direct-to-consumer advertising of prescription medicines. The bill updates the offence provisions in this country to ensure that they are consistent with the proposed enforcement regime for the joint scheme. Parts 6 and 7 contain similar search and seizure provisions as do those in Parts 1 to 5. The bill retains the ability for officers, under the Medicines Act, and for the police to obtain a search warrant in respect of offending against the Medicines Act, whether or not the specific offence features a term of imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EA new continuum of penalties is introduced to reflect the seriousness of each specific offence and to make penalties comparable with other modern legislation in this country. Penalties range between a fine of $5,000 for an individual, up to a fine of $250,000 for a body corporate, and 12 months\u2019 imprisonment for serious offending. The bill includes two new offences, one to prohibit the prescribing of prescription medicines by individuals who are not prescribers, and another for persons who do not dispose of medicines in the manner prescribed in regulations made under the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe bill confirms the Government\u2019s policy on pharmacy ownership. It incorporates recent reforms to the licensing regime for pharmacies, made to the Medicines Act in September 2004, in conjunction with the passage of the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act 2003. The bill requires operators of community and hospital pharmacies to be licensed by the Director-General of Health. Ownership of pharmacies is restricted to pharmacists, who must hold at least a 51 percent share of a pharmacy. Companies may also operate a pharmacy, as long as a pharmacist or pharmacists own 51 percent or more of the company\u2019s share capital. Neither a pharmacist nor a company may hold a majority interest in more than five pharmacies. Pharmacies legally carrying on business when the bill comes into force will be deemed to have a licence to operate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EIt is proposed that xenotransplantation be covered by the joint scheme, but until new controls are in place to govern the safety of the practice, regulation needs to be covered by the Medicines Act. The provisions will expire on 31 December 2008, allowing sufficient time for the new controls to be in place under the proposed joint scheme. The bill does, however, provide for this date to be extended by Order in Council should the need arise. It is important that there is no gap around this challenging technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe bill continues to allow direct-to-consumer advertising. The Government\u2019s preference was to ban direct-to-consumer advertising. However, it is clear that there is not the necessary support within Parliament for that to happen at this point. Retaining direct-to-consumer advertising means that advertising and promoting prescription medicines direct to consumers will continue to be permitted in New Zealand. The Government is concerned about direct-to-consumer advertising and its effect on the appropriate use of medicines. I am assured that under a proposed Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Authority advertising code, advertisements for medicines will need to meet standards for content, including that consumers be provided with balanced and truthful information. This will ensure that consumers are better informed about the benefits and risks of medicines and therapeutic health treatments, so that they can make better informed choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EFeedback on this proposal will be sought when the draft advertising rule, under the proposed joint regulatory scheme, is consulted on. In March of this year the Ministry of Health consulted on direct-to-consumer advertising. Of a total of 115 submissions received, 69 were concerned about direct-to-consumer advertising. Although direct-to-consumer advertising can provide consumers with more awareness of health conditions and treatments, branded information in advertisements does not provide further benefits to consumers. Direct-to-consumer advertising can result in discussions between general practitioners and their patients becoming focused on one particular choice of treatment, rather than assessing the advantages and disadvantages of all treatment options, including non-prescription treatments and lifestyle changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThese changes to the Medicines Act 1981, along with the provisions in Parts 1 to 5, will ensure effective regulation and enforcement across the joint scheme and domestically. The result will be more modern and seamless legislation for the regulation of therapeutic products, and a still closer relationship between the nations of Australia and New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u002282bbc87379364ba1bdd898d002d525e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282bbc87379364ba1bdd898d002d525e2\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E In the light of what has already been said, I think it is of some importance to work out what the difference of view about this bill is about or is not about. It is not about whether we need appropriate regulatory frameworks in place for pharmaceuticals, for complementary medicines, and for the other products covered by this bill. I would be astonished if there were a single member in this House who would argue that we should have an unregulated market and that we do not need appropriate regulations. It is not about that. This debate is about the level that is appropriate to fix the scale of the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ENor is this debate about closer economic relations, although we have just heard a great deal along that theme from one of the Ministers. It was a National Government that initiated the closer economic relations negotiation in 1979. It was a National Government that oversaw the negotiation right throughout that process, which I spent 7 years of my life on. It was a National Government that put in the 1988 review clause precisely because the Government of the day foresaw the need to continue to allow the closer economic relationship to mature, to keep it up to date, and to respond to the needs of the day. So it is not about who is committed to closer economic relations and who is not. The next National Government will be as committed as any Government has ever been to continuing the tradition of establishing with Australia the right type of policy frameworks to carry our two countries forward in the age of globalisation. That is not what the difference of view is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe difference of view is essentially about the level of regulation required to fix a problem. It is also about how we manage\u2014or in this particular case I would have to say mismanage\u2014an international negotiation and the democratic processes around that negotiation. Let me tell members how we manage a negotiation properly, by referring right back to the founding document for closer economic relations. What happened in that case was the most intimate connections and involvement between a group of Ministers and a group of officials on both sides of the Tasman. We established a joint working party on an inter-agency basis. Hardly a week went by without officials checking not only with their individual vote Ministers but also collectively with what was then the driving political force of the Government of the day\u2014the Cabinet economic committee. This process of interaction between the community, the political leaders chosen through the democratic process, and the officials responsible for the negotiation gave us, under very delicate circumstances, a very workable framework. That is how one manages responsibly an international negotiation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWhat I think we have here is a perfect reflection of a sickness that is not just in the health sector but in the State sector in particular. It reflects a bureaucratic mindset, a sledgehammer to crack the proverbial nut, and it comes from leaving the matter over to officials and expecting that a few reports to the vote Ministers is sufficient to achieve some liaison between the people who are affected by this and the actual end product of this negotiation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E What we know is the following: we have in our health sector officials who are wonderful public servants and who are dedicated to the public interest. We applaud them, we will always need them, and we admire their commitment. But if we step back from that unquestionably fair and true assessment of the state of our health bureaucracy and look at what has happened since the year 2000, in order to understand how it is possible that we could have negotiated this enormous bureaucratic monster, we just have to consider the following facts. First of all, since 2000, although the number of general practitioners per 100,000 New Zealanders has declined from 87 to 73, the number of managers\u2014and I think I am using an exceptionally polite term by using that word\u2014has increased by a fraction under 25 percent. Expenditure on their salaries has increased by 34 percent. Their total salary bill is half a billion dollars. We could build a stadium for that\u2014not necessarily on the waterfront, but possibly somewhere sensible elsewhere in New Zealand. What benefits New Zealand derives from this downgrading of the core services and the upgrading of the bureaucratic element is a very wide subject and beyond the compass of this particular bill, but it is precisely that tendency that has produced the massive document here with us today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EIn case people do not understand exactly the culture that this bill comes from\u2014the \u201Cmanagerialism gone mad\u201D culture\u2014I will quote again, in case people missed it at the time, what the retiring chief executive officer of the Waitemat\u0101 District Health Board said on precisely the cultural problem this bill represents. Dr Crombie stated: \u201CThe amount of compliance of auditing and monitoring is gobsmacking, really. It has become an industry in itself. What we are doing is demonstrating that it should be safe by showing the paperwork\u201D\u2014like this bill\u2014\u201Cwhereas we should be putting more of our energy into changing some of the systems.\u201D It is exactly this mindset that has produced this bill. There are only two possibilities. One possibility is that the Ministers were deeply involved\u2014and this bill does indeed reflect their own personal predilections and approach to policy formulation and negotiation. The other possibility is that it was done with a very light regime over the top of officials, and that this was presented as a fait accompli at the end of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022befebf4ef0ae4f16b47f43fd1f98e3b3\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What a strange speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4ac9e49b2f1468db20c7120377dc568\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: I just heard the point made about Australian officials. I have spent years working with Australian officials and, with the exception of the Australian Treasury and some sections of the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, I can tell members that their mindset and regulatory frameworks are, if anything, more bureaucratic than the typical default option of most New Zealand public sector workers. If people do not believe me, they should get hold of any publication issued by the Australian Productivity Commission and comb through its reports. There they will find abundant evidence of why our negotiators should have gone in on an inter-agency basis with their eyes wide open as to what would happen in this negotiation, and of why Ministers should have been involved intimately and continually throughout the negotiation process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have here a mixture of legislation that unquestionably does some useful things\u2014let us be clear about that. But on the other hand, it contains a whole lot of unnecessary overlay of sectors\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221264de2038f44661b72daafb7a23dd49\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Like what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135803424e12494588c69d46284563cd\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, like the complementary medicines sector, if members really want to know\u2014that is simply not required to fix the problem. Nobody has explained to the New Zealand public precisely what the problem is in the complementary medicines sector that this bill is intended to fix. What is the dimension of the problem that requires a one-size-fits-all, heavy-handed approach to regulation? I personally am not a great user of natural medicines. I am rather more inclined to be a folklore sceptic, I will use the phrase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603608f191f34a419c3d670f4aea53e8\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Like John Key on climate change\u2014don\u2019t worry; you\u2019ll change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dab3f96c33494ebaaa3ee7780b28f0df\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER\u003C/span\u003E: I was deliberately doing that to set the member up. I prefer to rely on the European Enlightenment and the science that it produced. But I do recognise that those are my views. Health is a very, very personal matter. We know that increasing numbers of New Zealanders hold different views from mine, and we know that many of those people will deeply resent the vastly increased costs that this will impose on that particular sector once the subsidy regime has come and gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI was simply astonished, by the way, when I heard the political fix. This is from a Government that wants to talk the talk on all occasions about reducing compliance costs and speeding up regulatory frameworks, but on every occasion when we come down to the wire, we find that Government members cannot walk the walk. When I found out that the fix to get this legislation through the House was a subsidy to offset the cost of implementing the scheme, I simply refused at first to believe it, but this is the approach we are landed with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI would like to see the following: if this bill is indeed enacted into legislation\u2014which remains to be seen\u2014as it passes through Parliament and the select committee process, the National Party will be looking for signs that we can put down as a marker for the future, when we can address all the cost compliance issues that, unfortunately, we are certain this legislation will involve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbd1c22f148b4822ae5e3f8f4f14b5b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbd1c22f148b4822ae5e3f8f4f14b5b5\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill going to a select committee. This bill has had a long and complex history. The idea of a joint agency to regulate pharmaceuticals, medical devices, and complementary medicines has been around for over 6 years. It is not new. During this entire time\u2014and even today\u2014it has been a topic of hot and impassioned debate, but also one where the facts have often been ignored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe must be clear about several critical aspects of this matter. The first is that the pharmaceuticals and medical devices industries are generally supportive of this move, while the complementary medicines industry is totally divided. New Zealand First has been lobbied by both sides, each urging us to support or not support this bill. We have heard from manufacturers of therapeutic goods, consumers, and lobby groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has held several well-publicised concerns about the establishment of a joint regulatory agency with Australia and has worked with the Minister to have these concerns resolved. The very first of our issues was the issue of sovereignty. We were very concerned about this particular issue. We were not content to see New Zealand confined to the status of an Australian state in any regulatory regime. That is the case under Food Standards Australia New Zealand\u2014we have only one voice, whereas we should make up half of the total number of the committee. This issue has now been resolved and, under the proposed regime, New Zealand will have equal status with Australia. A range of checks on the new agency will be held in New Zealand hands, including the ability to have the agency appear before a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThis is where much of the misinformation on this proposed agency kicks in. This is not an Australian takeover; we are assured of that. It is a genuine joint agency, with New Zealanders looking after New Zealand interests and Australians looking after their interests, despite the information that is being heard to the contrary. The most crucial aspect of this shift is that it has fundamentally altered the way that Australia will enter its negotiating position on joint future regulatory regimes\u2014that is, no longer will New Zealand settle for anything less than equal status. We want equal status. This is a significant shift, and it is one that New Zealand First has helped to secure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe other issues relate to the cost of the proposed agency and the impact of this on the local complementary medicines industry. Two background matters have to form part of these considerations. The very first is that the situation of an unregulated complementary goods industry would have ended, one way or another. It would not have continued. If the joint agency did not proceed, then a local regulatory regime was to be implemented. Both would add costs to the industry. Both would see some products removed because they did not meet the regulatory standards. From a health and safety point of view, this is vital. Consumers need to know that what is written on an ingredient label is what is actually contained in the product, and at the level specified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe costs need to be put into perspective. The total cost of the proposed new agency for complementary medicines is around $9 million. A 50 percent subsidy has been offered, which brings the cost to $4.5 million. Given that 60 percent of New Zealanders use these products\u2014we have heard in the House even today that some people do not use them and some people do\u2014this equates to a minimum cost per person per year. A cost of around $2 per person has been estimated, which is an increase, yes, but not the huge increase that some people are making it out to be. This will also be phased in over 5 years; there will be time to adjust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe must also acknowledge that the complementary medicines industry does not appear to be unified, and that the claims and counterclaims of all sides are quite exaggerated. Regulation was going to come anyway, and the new agency provides a high standard of regulation at a lower cost. Some parts of the industry want to join the joint agency, and some want no regulation at all, which is not an option. Those companies that export to Australia and Europe have to meet equivalent standards, and they are generally supportive of the joint agency. For many years the complementary products industry has been caught up in smoke and mirrors and has been fighting shadows associated with this proposed agency. At last, the legislation is on the table so that it can actually be discussed. It needed to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has ensured that those opposed to the regime have a further chance to have their say at the select committee. This bill is not being rushed through under urgency, so submitters have an opportunity to have a say. Ultimately, this is a case of balancing widely different views on the way forward. For New Zealand First, the achievement of a 50 percent subsidy and the protection of New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty tips the scales in favour of supporting this bill going to a select committee so that constructive debate can begin. We look forward to the public and those most affected by this bill having an opportunity to put forward their submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002234f6e6860251464889a4f38724e7cc86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234f6e6860251464889a4f38724e7cc86\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have utmost respect for the last speaker, Barbara Stewart, and I feel very much for her, because she has opposed this legislation for many years and has been rolled by her leader. She has confirmed that the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill was to be debated under urgency and that because of New Zealand First it will now be sent to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022872cdec491ad4506925f16dd9ae407a6\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re hearing things!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b81e054578e94bc38c366a04a3d6e08d\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is what I heard her say, and that is very interesting. The grave concerns that New Zealanders have about this legislation are threefold. New Zealanders understand that, despite all the spin and all the flannel, by passing this legislation we will transfer power over dietary supplements, medicines, and medical devices to this offshore entity that is based under Australian legislation. The entity will have its headquarters in Australia, and it will be staffed by Australians. The Minister for Food Safety, Annette King, is trying to say that this is not true, but I have sat through two hearings on this issue, and we have been told that this will be an offshore entity. That has been confirmed. The bill states that the agreement will be set up under Australian law\u2014it is all there. I have another document that points out that there will be 550 staff, of which 93 percent will be Australians and 7 percent will be New Zealanders. So there is all the spin and all the flannel, but the truth is that if that is what New Zealand First understands by equal status, having an agency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b8d1f4219b437aa3ff635cae8ca601\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: The head office is in New Zealand!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e3c18d22fc424d93deaf5c820cab90\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Sure, there might be a little office set up in Wellington, but the headquarters will be in Canberra. I visited the headquarters; it is a huge, bloated bureaucracy. That is where the headquarters will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBasically, once we hand over the jurisdiction for this agency, it will be beyond the reach of our democracy\u2014much as our food laws are. When I went to introduce legislation that there should be mandatory GE labelling in New Zealand, I was told by the Clerk that our Parliament has no jurisdiction over this because we have handed it over to Food Standards Australia New Zealand. That is exactly what we are doing with this 385-page bill. It states that it will give effect to the agreement. This legislation does not actually set up the agency; that has been set up under the agreement that has been signed between Australia and New Zealand. The treaty has been signed, and that is where the details are all outlined; we are giving effect to the treaty. We in the Health Committee know exactly how the treaty will operate, because we examined and rejected it. We urged the Government not to proceed with the trans-Tasman agency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261a1b6dd457a49c19aff1b38d0ff447b\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: No, we didn\u2019t!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225308a484739e4a7ebe1a660fbba28fbb\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY\u003C/span\u003E: If the member over there can contain herself, I will tell her that we had a select committee inquiry into how to regulate dietary supplements, and everyone agreed that, yes, we need better regulation. I agree wholeheartedly\u2014we need better regulation of dietary supplements. We urged the Government not to go down the road of this trans-Tasman agency, and we were unanimous in that. Of course, the Government signed the treaty 2 days before a unanimous Health Committee report came out urging that it not proceed with the legislation. This is what we said in our report on the treaty: \u201CThe power given to the proposed agency, and in particular its managing director, is unprecedented, both in law-making terms and in terms of powers of monitoring and enforcement.\u201D By the way, most of the details of how this new entity will operate are unknown; they are all in the rules and orders that are being consulted on. Passing this legislation without knowing the details is like signing a contract without having read it first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EBasically, all the powers will reside with the unelected official, the managing director, who will have virtually unlimited powers to make delegated legislation, in the form of orders\u2014yes, orders\u2014and rules. All the way through, the bill refers to orders and rules. These will have direct effect on our Parliament and on New Zealand, but they will not require the approval of Parliament. These rules have sweeping powers. We said in our report that many of the things that are left to the rules will be significant areas of policy-making; these will be delegated away from Parliament. We said that many of the matters that are proposed to be dealt with by rules and orders should be dealt with in primary legislation. Once one of these rules has been passed, the only thing that we, as members of the Regulations Review Committee, will be able to do is move a motion of disallowance in this House. The only problem is that there never has been a motion passed in this House to disallow a rule. So that power is there, but it is a complete, utter nonsense. That is why, if one reads the fine print, one realises that we are transferring powers to this agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis agency will have not just the power to regulate, as the trans-Tasman food authority has, but also powers to police, to search, and of seizure. This is unprecedented. In no other agency in the world does an offshore entity have such powers over an industry in another country\u2014namely New Zealand. The agency will have the powers of search and seizure and the power to police, so that some in the industry here may hear a knock on the door and find that an inspector from this offshore entity has turned up to close down their business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI make it clear that the Green Party wants to see a flourishing natural health industry in New Zealand. We want to see natural health products widely and safely used. If we thought that regulating them through this agency would help to achieve those purposes, we would embrace it. We have scrutinised this legislation. I sat up last night reading this 385-page Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill. We have come to the conclusion that it will impose a pharmaceutical-type model for low-risk dietary supplements. It will result in increasing pharmaceutical control of natural health products. Those products will become more expensive and difficult to access, small New Zealand businesses will go to the wall as a result of the excessive compliance costs of this agency, and there will be reduced consumer choice, as some ingredients will not be available in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI will give the House an example of this. The majority of Chinese herbs are not available in Australia. A Chinese herbalist, for example, has about 282 herbs. If those herbs are not on the approved list\u2014they are not on that list at the moment, and are unlikely to be, because of the extensive bureaucratic procedures and the fact that herbalists are required to produce a Western medicine, pharmaceutical-type analysis for Chinese medicine, which is not based on the Western medical paradigm\u2014they will become illegal if this bill is passed. So we will face the prospect, in about 5 years\u2019 time, of dietary supplements that have been safely used around the world for centuries becoming illegal in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThis is what is causing huge unease. It is the fact that we are transferring power across to this Australian-based offshore entity. Spin it as you like, it is Aussie rules. This is an Australian-dominated agency\u201493 percent of the staff will be Australians. Spin it as you will, New Zealanders know that this is the truth. They know that those health products will become increasingly expensive once the little bribe\u2014yes, the Government has come up with a bribe\u2014of paying some of the costs for 5 years ends. Anyway, that money pays for only a tiny amount of the costs. The products will become more expensive and small businesses will go to the wall. We will basically have a pharmaceutical-type takeover of our natural health products industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe Treaty is not mentioned in this entire bill. What a great way of circumventing the Treaty! If a M\u0101ori practitioner wants to sell some of his or her traditional M\u0101ori products, why should he or she have to seek approval and get a licence from a managing director\u2014an unelected official\u2014based in Australia? It is absolutely outrageous. The Minister has confirmed that if a M\u0101ori practitioner wants to sell a product\u2014a M\u0101ori traditional product\u2014he or she will have to get approval from this offshore entity. That is absolutely scandalous, and it breaches the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u00228b92dd07a42348e7a796131412901749\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b92dd07a42348e7a796131412901749\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Yesterday the Crown commenced its presentation of evidence on the Wai 262 flora and fauna case to the Waitangi Tribunal. That is the inquiry concerning the indigenous flora and fauna and cultural intellectual property right claim lodged by Ng\u0101ti Kur\u012B, Ng\u0101ti Wai, Te Rarawa, Ng\u0101ti Porou, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, and Ng\u0101ti K\u014Data. Over the next fortnight, all ears will be on that hearing as the Crown responds to the claim by presenting evidence on the environment, conservation lands, intellectual property laws, health, contemporary policy, and legislation. Yet, here we are, just over the road and at the same time, debating the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill in which there are issues central to that very claim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has been well aware that M\u0101ori have been so concerned about the proposed agency for therapeutic products and medicines that they called for an urgent application to the Waitangi Tribunal specifically around the consultation process. Concerns were expressed that the claimant groups were not consulted during the 3-year development period for this bill. Instead, they had to call an urgent meeting with the Waitangi Tribunal in order to get their comments on the record. On 3 October this year the tribunal confirmed that the interest claimed by M\u0101ori under the Treaty of Waitangi was legitimate and well within the guarantee of tino rangatiratanga represented in article 2 of the Treaty. It is profoundly disappointing, again, that this Government has been found seriously lacking in its capacity to truly, deeply, and fully engage in the process of consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ESo the M\u0101ori Party comes to this bill with some mixed feelings. On the one hand we want to give credit where credit is due and acknowledge the impressive approach taken by the Minister, Annette King, and her officials throughout the long gestation period of this bill. Although it is not usual, perhaps, to name officials, I want to commend Selwyn K\u0101tene, of Ng\u0101ti Toa and Ng\u0101ti Tama, for his excellent advice. The Minister has engaged with M\u0101ori Party members over the last year, providing us with copies of the draft rules, listening to our views, and providing us with comprehensive briefings. Indeed it has, without exception, been the type of process that we would like to engage in with every bill\u2014being able to be fully informed about the detail long before it is on the Order Paper. We have greatly appreciated those efforts that were made. Indeed, I reiterate the comments made earlier by the Minister of Health, Pete Hodgson, in commending the Minister for Food Safety for her tireless commitment towards progressing this policy. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Annette. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThat level of involvement, however, has been eclipsed by the intensity of concerns expressed by tangata whenua about the probability of an Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Authority. As recently as yesterday over 30 rongo\u0101 practitioners affiliated to Ng\u0101 Ringa Whakahaere o te Iwi M\u0101ori travelled from all over Aotearoa to share their concerns from our matua t\u016Bpuna about those taonga. Their concerns\u2014concerns we have frequently expressed to the Minister\u2014are that the specific rights that flow from article 2 demanded that there needed to be dialogue and agreement between the Treaty partners. In its findings the tribunal concluded that the Crown\u2019s efforts so far to establish dialogue were disappointing. Indeed, it described them as creating the conclusion that \u201Cthe consultation process is little more than procedural damage control\u201D; rather than the oft-quoted principles established in law for the dialogue to be genuine, open-minded, and aimed with a solution in sight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E This House needs to start talking seriously about the nature of consultation. Consultation is not about rubber-stamping at the end when all the decisions have been enforced. To be real about consultation, tangata whenua must have access to all relevant documentation. There must be a willingness to meet face to face and to know that their views are respected. Indeed, as I have heard it said by another political party, there is nothing to fear from tangata whenua, and maybe that is a message the Government may be prepared to accept. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI sat with the rongo\u0101 practitioners yesterday, and I can say that their concerns are clear. They are concerned that the Therapeutic Products Authority will be above te Tiriti o Waitangi, that it will set down its own guidelines, that it will be above New Zealand parliamentary authority, and that it will not recognise indigenous interests. They fear it will cut at the very heart of sovereignty. They are concerned that rangatiratanga will be further compromised by decision making moving offshore. They are angry that there has been no consultation with hap\u016B and iwi M\u0101ori, and that, consequently, there are no mechanisms in this bill to protect the appropriation of M\u0101ori and indigenous knowledge. Their concern is that there are no Treaty of Waitangi provisions included within the agreement, and that the regulation of rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori, their taonga tuku iho, will be made by a non-M\u0101ori body. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ETangata whenua have spoken passionately about the threat that the bill poses in undermining the claim of kaitiakitanga made by wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi claimants. I have been very clear with them, as the Minister has been clear with me, that non-commercialised rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori will be exempt from the proposed scheme. In saying that, I am firmly of the view that all medicines and rongo\u0101, whether commercially prepared or not, should be deemed to be safe. Accountability and health protection should be our paramount concern, and we must never compromise on public health. However, I cannot hide the truth that there are a number of crucial qualifiers around this exemption that create uncertainty. The tribunal noted that the current exemption of rongo\u0101 under the Medicines Act could not be guaranteed to continue. It described the exemption as ad hoc and certainly not discharging the Crown\u2019s Treaty obligations to rongo\u0101 producers and practitioners. The draft medicine rules do not guarantee such exclusions to a satisfactory level, and for this reason the M\u0101ori Party wanted complementary medicines, including herbal medicines and other nutritional supplements, traditional medicines such as rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori and traditional Chinese medicines, homeopathic medicines, and aromatherapy oils removed from the Trans-Tasman therapeutic goods authority. We wrote to the Minister recommending this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe nub of the issue for the M\u0101ori Party is the question of whether we can have faith in the Government, let alone the Australian Government, to adequately protect rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori, when those same Governments have not been able to support the rights of indigenous people at an international level. The Crown has advised that M\u0101ori will be able to have input into the regulations that will determine the actual operation of the relationship. But the issue is really around trust. Can we be sure that the New Zealand Government will have the authority to continue to enforce the exemption on non-commercialised rongo\u0101 and to uphold this in the future? This Government\u2019s own M\u0101ori health strategy, He Korowai Oranga, explicitly acknowledges rongo\u0101\u2014herbal remedies\u2014as being a valued component of M\u0101ori traditional healing. It is therefore disappointing that the policy intention has not yet benefited from the resource to enact the commitment into real, tangible strategies to support their developments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI was interested in the comments of the New Zealand Health Trust, which saw the Government being determined to ram the legislation through. We are concerned about the establishment of a regulatory entity to manage the development of medicinal and intellectual property rights for rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori. Rongo\u0101 is the manifestation of our tikanga and our kaupapa. It has been handed down by our tupuna. It has mana and tapu, and that is why it demands respect. A trans-Tasman body would have limited capacity to appreciate what is meant by mana and tapu; that is not a judgment but merely a fact. Rongo\u0101 is a total way of life, upholding tikanga M\u0101ori to achieve holistic health. It is a healthy mind, a healthy body, and a healthy spirit, and it springs from an absolute belief in total well-being. The preservation and protection of rongo\u0101 and traditional medicines is of such critical importance to M\u0101ori that we cannot take the risk of supporting a bill when some fundamental questions are still uppermost in our people\u2019s minds. It is that uncertainty that has led us to oppose the bill. T\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00220cc138cc100b4fcbb203a255669e7737\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cc138cc100b4fcbb203a255669e7737\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak to the first reading of the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill. I have to say that this was the very first issue, on arriving in Parliament in 2002, that hit our desks. All the letters and emails\u2014and I mean all of them\u2014were from consumers of complementary products. In fact, we were so thoroughly lobbied by complementary medicine consumers that it took me some weeks to discover that the proposal actually included pharmaceuticals and medical devices, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI am a regular user of complementary products, so I was shocked at the thought that the items I use to maintain my own personal health and well-being could be ripped off the shelves or out-priced from the budget of average New Zealanders. That complementary products could be bought out by pharmaceutical companies and then shut down was the message of fear that I was fed for weeks and weeks. I was told that New Zealand would sign away all say on these matters, and our very existence as a nation was under threat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESo United Future then supported the inquiry called by National\u2019s Dr Lynda Scott to see whether a joint regulator was the best option. We supported the findings of the select committee that New Zealand should self-regulate. However, current opponents fail to remember that the recommendation from the select committee was predicated on Australia\u2019s willingness to mutually recognise our regulator, so that industry stakeholders would not have the expense of doubly registering products and ingredients. Well, Australia will not mutually recognise. Why not? It is because, as it pointed out to our officials, it cannot recognise a regulator that does not exist and does not have a robust history that it can put its trust in. Because we cannot get mutual recognition in a deal with Australia, the recommendation from the select committee is idealistic and unachievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EHowever, United Future was keen to stay informed in two directions; firstly, that we monitor the ongoing negotiations between the Government and Australia, and I thank the Hon Annette King for allowing me to have observer status at her ministerial advisory committee meetings, even though during that process I never gave her any reassurance of any future support. I would also like to thank, as the M\u0101ori Party has, Selwyn K\u0101tene for his work and advice during this time. I also mention at this time, as someone who observed many of those meetings, that those representing the complementary medicine sector regularly\u2014certainly at every meeting I attended\u2014advocated very strongly on behalf of small industry players within the New Zealand context. The second area we sought to stay informed on was the ongoing opinions of those within the complementary sector who were intensely suspicious and resistant to the proposal, unlike those from the pharmaceutical and medical device sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUntil recently our position was that we would support only legislation that did not include the complementary medicine sector and in no way did away with direct-to-consumer advertising. What has changed our minds is that we have now been victims of a barrage of mixed messages from the complementary industry. It is now clear that a large sector of that industry wants this to proceed, as it is now largely satisfied with what the deal is as it now stands, not as was originally proposed. So United Future is committed to supporting the first reading, because we see this as being the only way that the divided camp of the complementary health products industry can use the select committee process to sort out what it wants. We will then revisit our position after we have heard from submitters, officials, and the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI say to the consumer lobbyists, however, that I am singularly unimpressed with the current bully-boy tactics and threats, and that they do their argument only harm as they present themselves as fringe extremists, not rational contributors. One aspect of the debate on which there has been general agreement from all sides of the argument is that those therapeutic goods currently unregulated in New Zealand should be regulated. Let us remember that it is both medical devices and complementary medicines that are currently unaccountably unregulated within New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ETo move from an unregulated to a regulated environment is a very scary thing for the people involved, because it will require extra costs, and those will be passed on to consumers. So the question remains as to how we can appropriately regulate substances, commensurate with the risks they pose, in a way that is both affordable and that protects consumer access. My growing concern\u2014and something that I am keen to have answered by the select committee process\u2014is that there are some who appear to be taking a very blinkered approach to a New Zealand-only regulator. Also, that those in the industry accept that New Zealand manufacturers will have to pay two sets of compliance costs if they want to export their products. Guess who will be picking up the tab on that? It will be the consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnlike some of the information that is circulating at present, I am heartened by the fact that, as this proposal has proceeded, and we have now four offices established and recommended. One office will regulate prescription medicines, a second will regulate over-the-counter medicines, a third will regulate medical devices, and a fourth office will regulate complementary health products. Each will have its own regulatory model based on the risks that those products pose. This is not about imposing a pharmaceutical overkill model on to herbs, as is currently being touted around the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future is very keen to make sure that what we decide is based on facts not on emotional rhetoric. I mentioned this to someone who rang me yesterday. We started out with a very calm and logical discussion and I was very interested in what he had to share. But at one point he then deteriorated into what I call holocaust language which, quite frankly, I found emotive and unacceptable. We moved right away from the facts of the issue and into emotionalism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI do not want to see complementary medicines taken off the shelves of this country or see people lose access to the fine products that they now enjoy and use. I am one of those consumers and self-interest alone determines that I want to see New Zealand get this right. United Future is very happy to support the first reading of this bill so that the debate can be had and the facts can be brought to light.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022077c31791c1b4561a73684d8a1a94895\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022077c31791c1b4561a73684d8a1a94895\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to talk on the first reading of the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill. This bill has a very long history, as has already been pointed out in this House. Like the member who has just taken her seat, Judy Turner, it was the first issue that arose on our agenda as members of the Health Committee when I came to Parliament in 2002. The history should, perhaps, be remembered in the course of the debate, because it has been very contentious and there has been huge public interest on both sides of the debate. I, like everybody else who has spoken, have received all the emails. I received one this afternoon, which I thought summed up beautifully the issue involved, from my perspective and from that of those sitting on this side of the House. It stated: \u201CThe proposed Australia - New Zealand Therapeutic Goods Act will stifle innovation of natural or complementary products and medicines in New Zealand, simultaneously taxing the resources, time, and finances of small businesses.\u201D That, to my mind, sums up the intent of what we must remember is validating legislation to a treaty that was signed on 10 December 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EHowever, the history goes back even further than that. The issue that I talked about that I was first involved with when I came to Parliament in July 2002 was an inquiry into the proposed therapeutic goods joint agency. The select committee undertook a very rigorous process during that inquiry. We called for submissions, and there were a large number of interested parties. Everybody was given a very full and thorough hearing\u2014I think there would be little disagreement by those who were on the select committee at the time about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWe were, however, hindered in our inquiry by Annette King, the Minister who was in charge of the issue at that stage. When she moved from the health portfolio to become Minister for Food Safety she kept this issue as an area of interest for herself and showed what could be described only as disdain and contempt for those who did not think the same way as she did about it. The select committee inquiry was pre-empted in releasing its findings, which was scheduled to happen on 12 December 2003, by the then Minister of Health, Annette King, jointly signing an agreement with the Australian Minister of Health on 10 December 2003, which was, as she knew, 2 days before our inquiry was about to be reported on. She pre-empted the impending outcomes and suggestions that we had put forward as a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThere was a great deal of grumpiness in the select committee about that by all the Opposition members at the time, including members of two parties, United Future and New Zealand First, which are now supporting this validating legislation. We held what was widely agreed to be an unprecedented press conference. Members from all sides of the House\u2014apart from those in the Labour Government\u2014came forward and were united in their contempt. I might add that those Labour members were left to hold the fort on their own in the select committee and they were grumpy about that. It is a great shame that members of those two parties who were so vocal in their opposition to this agency have now changed their minds, but that has happened for a variety of reasons and I will come to them, too. Needless to say, the ACT party remains steadfast in its opposition to this validating legislation for the treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EFurther down the track, the treaty came to our select committee. Again it was heard in full. A large number of people wanted to submit and many of the same issues were discussed, for very good reason. Again, the recommendations made by the select committee were largely ignored by this Government and have been overridden. So those of us on the select committee who opposed these issues feel that we wasted a good deal of time and effort, and I think those in the industry would agree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis is a huge piece of legislation, with 380-something pages. It is no longer just about the pharmaceuticals, the dietary supplements, the complementary therapies, and the medical devices. It is, in fact, about a wide range of topics. We have finally reached the point where, after 3 years of trying, the Government has managed to introduce this legislation, which was supposed to come before the House 6 months after the treaty was signed. Three years down the track there has been a great deal of wheeling and dealing to get to this point where the bill can be introduced into the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIt includes all sorts of things that, in the initial stages, were never intended, such as direct-to-consumer advertising. I have to say I support absolutely the direct-to-consumer advertising recommendations in this bill, but I cannot support the bill overall. Xenotransplantation, pharmacy ownership, and designated prescribers\u2014amongst other things\u2014are now all rolled holus-bolus into this legislation which, essentially, was supposed to be about regulation for the safety of New Zealanders when it comes to complementary therapies. We have all sorts of things rolled into one here so that, in the final instance, this bill can be introduced into this House and pushed through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EMany comments have been made in this House today and I would like to recognise some of those. Tim Groser spoke on behalf of the National Party, Sue Kedgley spoke on behalf of the Greens, and Tariana Turia spoke on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party, and I agree with all of the points they raised. As I have said, it is unfortunate that two of the parties who opposed the legislation until a very short while ago have changed their minds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI come to a few of the points that have been raised. ACT is absolutely in favour of closer economic relations. I agree with the comments made by the National Party member Tim Groser, who said that this is not a debate about closer economic relations, as was put forward by the Minister of Health. It is absolutely not. It is about pushing forward regulation\u2014heavy-handed bureaucratic regulation\u2014on the New Zealand industry. There will be many Kiwis, both consumers and producers of therapies, who will be severely disadvantaged by this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThose supporting the bill present it as a fait accompli. They say it is going to be wonderful, there will be offices everywhere, and Australians will recognise what we New Zealanders want. Well, let us just see what happens when the legislation gets there, because I am afraid I do not share their faith in the outcome of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EPerhaps the biggest thing I am absolutely opposed to in this legislation, on behalf of the ACT party, is the suggestion of a subsidy to offset the cost of regulation. We are supposed to raise our hands and shout \u201CHallelujah!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ec21bbb0f648e3ae7ebefd1b0ea7a6\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: A bribe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022970be99cfe0a43d8a3457c5e07339fdb\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely a bribe. Let me say that we in New Zealand were world leaders in getting rid of subsidies. New Zealand has been there. We have done that. We rejected the concept, and the world, in part, followed us in getting rid of subsidies. But here we are today, at the very end of this parliamentary session this year, saying that subsidies are a wonderful thing; let us have them back again. Well, that is a retrograde step for New Zealand\u2014a step we should not be even contemplating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand First member stated that she wants equal status for New Zealand and Australia. I have already touched on this point; I share very little faith with her that equality will be reached. I think that we will see heavy, burdensome bureaucratic regulation imposed on an industry that is quite prepared to look at other solutions without having that cumbersome approach put in place. The industry, for all of the 3 years that we are talking about and that we have debated this issue, has always shown an absolute willingness to cooperate with what it sees as reasonable regulation. It is in favour of self-regulation, which many other professional bodies have, and it wants to see regulation to protect its products from those put forward in a shonky way\u2014those that are unsafe to consumers. It, too, because it has pride in its products and believes in them, wants to ensure the safety of the New Zealand consumer. Instead of having the opportunity to have this discussion, to talk about professional self-regulation, and to talk about other forms of regulation that could have happened without the involvement of this heavy-handed bureaucratic joint Tasman agency, the industry has been denied the opportunity to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Food Safety, Annette King, also said in her initial speech that she wants to see this bill go to the constructive environment of a select committee. Well, if only she meant that, I would feel a little assurance. However, I talked before of her disdain for the select committee process, which we have already seen twice before. Firstly, there was the inquiry into the complementary therapies. There was a very constructive environment in that select committee, but the Minister completely ignored the findings from that inquiry. Again, she treated the select committee with a great deal of contempt in relation to the signing of the treaty, but she also showed contempt when we went through the thorough process of examining that treaty in detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand opposes, vigorously, this bill at its first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aeae1104d7bc440a950face5875062b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aeae1104d7bc440a950face5875062b0\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E Today I will be covering two issues of interest relating to the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill. I chaired the Health Committee that conducted the initial inquiry and reported back in 2003, and the subsequent examination of the agreement between Australia and New Zealand. In that capacity I will be speaking to two issues of concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI mention first, that the Green Party referred in the House today to a unanimous Health Committee report, but failed to mention the rider to the committee\u2019s position\u2014that it did not become a party to an agreement between Australia and New Zealand for the establishment of a scheme unless the committee\u2019s subsequent recommendations were met in any implementing legislation. I have heard about the disrespect for the Health Committee\u2019s recommendations by the Minister, and I refute that absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe put forward 13 recommendations when we reviewed the treaty; 12 of those recommendations are in this report. I think that that is absolute acknowledgment that where the committee saw we could get better things through the agreement, our recommendations have all been implemented in this bill today. That is not showing disregard for the efficacy of a select committee. Amongst those recommendations were issues we were concerned about\u2014of rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori protection, and of governance and accountability. I understand that only one recommendation\u2014that is, a partial disallowance of rules in each country\u2014is not included in the bill. That is the only recommendation not implemented in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI want to go quickly to the issue of rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori, because my colleague Annette King mentioned it earlier. This authority, I must stress, is a new authority. The Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Authority is not the old Trans-Tasman therapeutic goods agency. Effectively, rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori will be treated in this bill by the new authority in the same way as it is now under the Medicines Act of 1981. In respect of the arguments I heard from the Hon Tariana Turia, I say that I do not think we want to confuse whatever findings will come up from the Waitangi claims; I think that they need to be considered at a later date and not get confused in the machinations of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EProducts used in the practice of rongo\u0101 are currently exempt from the requirements of the Medicines Act, and I think that is really important. They are not given under prescription, they are not restricted, and they are not pharmacy-only prescribed now, so this same arrangement will remain in this same way under the scheme. We will not bother to define rongo\u0101 in this scheme, because its products are exempt. So the products used in the practice of rongo\u0101 will not be regulated, nor will the relationship between a rongo\u0101 practitioner and a patient. Likewise, where rongo\u0101 practitioners prepare r\u0101kau rongo\u0101, they will be exempt from manufacturing licence requirements. I hope that as the select committee goes through this bill, those issues will be covered, and covered also by those who submit on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Authority will bring significant benefits to manufacturers, opening up the Australian market for exports without the added regularity costs involved in the selling of products in Australia. Mutual recognition agreements between the authority and other national regulators will be likely to increase export opportunities further. So I just wanted to cover off what I had heard about rongo\u0101 in the House, and members\u2019 concerns with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe next issue I want to cover quickly is that of accountability, which is a crucial aspect in ensuring good governance and the legitimacy of public power. I have heard members across the House show concerns about that. A strong accountability regime ensures Parliament and the public that public resources are being used efficiently and effectively. The simple truth of this new arrangement, and the new authority, is that New Zealand could never have afforded to go it alone in order to continue to meet the needs of regulating this industry. During the select committee deliberation, as others have said, no one argued with the need for regulation. It would have been far too expensive for New Zealand and Medsafe alone to advance regulation of these products. We did not have that capacity, alone, in New Zealand, so the joint agency offers that shared expertise and capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI will quickly cover off the accountabilities of the new agency. It has to provide an annual report and a statement of intent. It will be a Crown entity like any other Crown entity, and its reports will be tabled in Parliament in New Zealand. Its representatives will appear before select committees for financial reviews and inquiries, like any other Crown entity. It will be subject to scrutiny of its regulatory decisions by the courts through a merits review process and judicial review, and it will be subject to other legislative requirements that stand in both countries. That includes the Official Information Act, the Australian Freedom of Information Act, the Privacy Act, and the Ombudsmen Act in both countries, and scrutiny by both Auditor-Generals. I find that to be very strong and robust accountability. The agency will be a Crown entity and subject to rules and orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EWe have heard ridiculous assertions about the powers of the managing director, but the accountability arrangements of that position have been set to ensure that the managing director is equally accountable to both the Australian and the New Zealand Ministers of Health, which will happen through the joint ministerial council. The executive is not able unilaterally to alter the arrangements, and we will cover that off in the scrutiny of the select committee process. There will be a complaints system, and there will be a review tribunal. So I feel that the spurious concerns that have been tabled in the House about accountability are simply not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI would like to say a lot more, but in conclusion I just say that the Health Committee did agree that a risk-based regulation of medical devices and complementary medicines was needed to ensure public safety, efficacy of therapeutic products and their claims, and a new regulation model commensurate with risks. The model is not the Therapeutic Goods Administration or Food Standards Australia New Zealand; the model will protect sovereignty through its governance mechanisms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThis bill is about CER. The assertion from the member of the Opposition that this has nothing to do with CER is ridiculous. He is clearly flying in the face of the Australian Prime Minister, who supports this regulatory agency. I remind members that the beginning of this proposal was in National Party policy in 1999\u2014and we have to sit here and hear a hysterical refusal to accept that the 3 years of work since we put the inquiry on the table shows we have developed a new authority altogether, with very strong governance and accountability mechanisms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022 data-id=\u002202021dd36cd240d09da03cea0c718430\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202021dd36cd240d09da03cea0c718430\u0022\u003EDr JACKIE BLUE (National):\u003C/span\u003E This could have been a proud day for the New Zealand Government, but it is not. The Government has wasted a golden opportunity. The Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill, which introduces legislation to establish the Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Authority, could have been a first, with true multiparty support, cooperation, collaboration, and agreement. But that has not happened, and Annette King, the Minister in charge of this bill, is to blame for that. Her dismissiveness and lack of consultation has shown no bounds. She has refused to consult the National Party every step of the way. The Hon Tony Ryall informed us today that Annette King considered that handing over some overheads to two National MPs was consultation. What a joke! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EI have been a member of the Health Committee over the last year, and on numerous occasions we have invited Annette King to personally address us on this bill. She refused to do so on each and every occasion. Not once did she appear before the Health Committee. I have been so concerned about her indifference to this bill that in a parliamentary question I asked her whether she had been requested by the Health Committee to personally brief the committee on progress regarding the issues surrounding the proposed Australia New Zealand Therapeutic Products Authority, and, if she had, how many times she had been invited for a briefing. I asked whether she had briefed the committee, and, if she had not, whether she planned to do so. I also asked her why she would not want to brief the Health Committee. Three weeks later I received a nonsense reply, which was that it had not been possible to obtain the information required to enable her to address that question by the due date. What a joke! The answer was really simple: she had never been to the committee and had no intention of addressing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe response from Annette King goes to prove that this Minister has not taken seriously the concerns of Parliament\u2019s own Health Committee, of thousands of New Zealanders, and of the hundreds of fledgling natural health-care businesses. The Minister has ratified the treaty without the mandate of this Parliament and against its wishes. This bill, which had its origins under the last National Government, was a good idea. But, sadly, there has been a lack of consultation, and the Government, like most things it gets hold of, has made a complete hash of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EOur National Party is most concerned about the inclusion of natural health-care products. We consider that the Australian natural products industry is one of the most highly regulated of those industries in the world. Forcing its rules on New Zealand businesses will serve only to increase the cost of products, reduce consumer choice, and hurt many businesses. National believes that natural health products should be regulated, but that this legislation is not the answer. The Government has been attempting to introduce this legislation for years, but until recently it has not been successful. It did not have the political clout or numbers to do so, but it is clear that it has now done a deal with New Zealand First. The thousands of New Zealanders who will have choice taken away, and the hundreds of businesses that will be affected by compliance costs and bureaucracy, can thank Winston Peters for the fact that they will have to keep on fighting against this restrictive legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIt did not have to be like this. Only 6 weeks ago, on radio, Winston Peters reaffirmed his party\u2019s opposition to the bill, and if he had kept his word this bill would not be being debated today. In the lunch break today there was a rally against this legislation. It was a very sad sight to see Winston Peters defending his betrayal of New Zealanders to the crowd. They could see through him by a million miles. He did not convince anybody; he was booed and jeered. The fact is that the Labour Government had to offer a bribe to New Zealand First. It had to offer a 50 percent subsidy on complementary medicines in order to get the parliamentary numbers for this bill, which goes to prove that this regime was far too expensive to begin with. The 50 percent subsidy is for only 5 years, and then what will happen? Let us make no mistake that businesses will face escalating compliance costs after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EThe Minister has gone against the recommendations of Parliament\u2019s Health Committee. In December 2003 the Health Committee recommended that the Government strengthen domestic regulation as the most appropriate method of governing complementary health-care products in New Zealand, and that it pursue a mutual recognition regulatory option rather than a joint agency with Australia. Yes, 3 years ago the Health Committee recommended that a local solution should be sought for complementary health-care products. That is what the industry wanted. Four years ago the New Zealand health industry presented Medsafe with a low-cost, economically viable, full-recovery regulatory system that was acceptable to the entire industry. Sadly, that was not accepted, and the only aspect of mutual recognition in the whole of this bill is the one that the National Party insisted on\u2014that is, for medical devices. A number of medical device companies in New Zealand export internationally, and, as a result, they already have to adhere strictly to rigorous international licensing regimes. It is absolutely appropriate that those internationally respected licensing bodies are recognised by the proposed trans-Tasman agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003EIn 2004 the Health Committee again reported on the treaty. The National Party provided a minority report, stating: \u201CWe consider that the Government should not have gone ahead and signed the treaty when the main finding of the Health Committee inquiry into complementary healthcare products was that a proposal to regulate complementary healthcare products jointly with Australia \u2018should not proceed\u2019.\u201D We have not changed our position; we have stayed steadfast in keeping the same position. New Zealand First also wrote a minority report, stating it had three concerns. The first concern was one of sovereignty. The second was that complementary medicines should be treated separately. The third concern was about how the proposal would impact on small businesses. What a complete U-turn there has been by New Zealand First! The complementary medicine sector had every right to feel sold out and betrayed by this Government and New Zealand First. This regime will be costly, restrictive, and unnecessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003ENational is not prepared to jeopardise the viability of hundreds of small businesses or the choices of thousands of consumers. Annette King\u2019s handling of this issue has destroyed any chance of cross-party support. There has been no consultation with other parties in the developmental stage, and she signed the treaty against the wishes of other parties. Her handling of this issue has jeopardised a significant improvement in trans-Tasman governance. National is opposing this bill in principle. Annette King has negotiated a bad deal for New Zealand. We believe that for complementary medicine there should be a low-cost local solution. National believes that New Zealand should harmonise with Australia only when it is in New Zealand\u2019s best interests to do so. This Government is selling out small businesses in New Zealand and taking away choice from thousands of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f82aa1dae9cf4d8dae71846932f91079\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f82aa1dae9cf4d8dae71846932f91079\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW (National\u2014Aoraki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise also to oppose the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill, along with my National Party colleagues and others on this side of the House. My opposition to this bill will focus on the barriers to health-care options that this bill brings to Parliament and the people of New Zealand\u2014those of cost and choice. The bill will impose significant costs on small and not-so-small businesses within the framework of therapeutic products. New Zealand has a 95 percent reliance on small to medium enterprises or businesses to keep the economy of this country chugging along. It is an unwise Government that does not take notice of how important those small businesses are to New Zealand. Those same businesses have been hammered repeatedly by compliance cost burdens in the last 7 years. It is no wonder the small businesses that will be affected by this bill are crying foul. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EBefore the supporters of the bill can claim otherwise, I want to assure the House that I am not supporting the sale of unsafe products to members of the public, but, as is so often the case, this Government charges on, blindly ignoring the risk of unintended consequences, and without due care to prevent this legislation from bringing some businesses to their knees. This bill should be called the \u201CTherapeutic Products (Anti-small-business) Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThis bill will create a barrier to health-care options by reducing choice. Choice reduction will follow the inability of small niche products to survive the processes and costs associated with this bill. National\u2019s opposition to this regime is because of its costly and restrictive nature. National is not prepared to jeopardise the viability of hundreds of small businesses, nor the choice of thousands of consumers\u2014in fact, over a million consumers. Small-business owners in my electorate have pleaded with me to oppose this bill. They know that their viability is at risk, and, just as important, is their concern for their clients. I have had lists of people who rely on being able to access a product that works for them. I have been offered those lists but I have taken the word of the business people who have talked to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EIt is time perhaps to ponder, for a moment or two, on Annette King\u2019s performance on this issue. She truly has destroyed the opportunity for a cross-party approach to solving this issue for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f7b8257b2a4fa6bb55a3c10ba3947c\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: There was no consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaba39322b7e469ba9bcfdb660b7c398\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: We had Labour-style consultation. We could have ironed out some of the fatal flaws in this legislation but Labour did not take up that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa4001421c141c6bde57f10b887c578\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: No consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271777e7ea237417a9df59e1164da73ae\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c373227ee3914b2c85052a5037035879\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Let me tell members more of the history. The Health Committee made repeated attempts to garner more information about this bill, but those attempts failed. Speaking as a member of the select committee, I tell Mr Hughes that that is the truth. Such was the lack of consultation by the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9aaf125de3f4525b9b6e29795172c65\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Did you ask a question like Jackie Blue did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2b691b046742a2a981a0db6f8317ec\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: Jackie Blue has told this House that she asked the question and got a nonsense answer. What more could we expect! Annette King signed the treaty, against the wishes of other parties. This bill is Annette King\u2019s pride and joy. This is something for which Annette King has authorised the spending of millions of dollars over the past few years, and she really does not want to see it fail. So she had to call in some very big favours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220025f809c8444e5d8572ea5ee6b23dc5\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022471f85ee43c44d1c82d2418664b9a8c1\u0022\u003EJO GOODHEW\u003C/span\u003E: From the minor parties, New Zealand First and United Future, I suspect that that is not proper consultation, but arm-up-the-back style consultation. Annette King\u2019s handling of this bill has been more about her philosophy of getting it through and less about meeting the needs of New Zealanders. Had the Government listened to New Zealanders, it would not have ignored the interests of small business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EBut I must applaud the Government for having listened to New Zealanders in keeping the direct-to consumer advertising in the bill. But it is not enough. This anti-business Labour Government and chums\u2014United Future and New Zealand First\u2014have ignored the powerhouse of New Zealand, those small businesses, They ignored the guidance of the Health Committee, not once but twice. The committee twice advised against going ahead with this joint-agency concept. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe timing of the introduction of this bill has been described as sneaky, and done under the cover of the silly season. That is a pretty fair description, because it has come at this end of the year, but Annette King\u2019s tactics will not stop National members taking every call available to us to protest about this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI have already said that the New Zealand Health Trust has the numbers. It has quantified the impact of this bill and has talked about the over 1 million consumers who will be affected by lessened choice and increased costs. My colleague Tim Groser has rightly spoken about CER, and we want to refute the suggestions that our stance is anti-Australian. Of course, it is not. Tim Groser is eminently qualified to understand the intricacies of what this means for New Zealand. He correctly described the Australian Government\u2019s approach as a bureaucratic mindset and a sledgehammer approach. He also correctly alluded to the changes in our health services, which make complementary health-care options, therapeutics, the choice of thousands of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003ENational feels very strongly that New Zealand must not subsume its own identity by handing over control to an agency that is, of course\u2014the size will determine\u2014dominated by Australia. New Zealand should harmonise with Australia, only when it is in our best interests. We do not want to sell the family silver. We do not want to be subsumed by Australia, but rather work with Australia for the benefit of New Zealanders, rather than to sell them out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue reminded us that mutual recognition was the recommendation made in 1993 by the Health Committee. That recommendation has been ignored, in favour of this bill. We were reminded of the minority report that came out of that Health Committee, and I speak of the New Zealand First minority report, which has been consigned to the dustbin. I do commend Barbara Stewart from New Zealand First for how well she dances on the head of a pin! After not supporting the bill in the select committee, poor Barbara Stewart has had to accede to her colleagues\u2019 wishes and do a flip-flop, a U-turn. How painful that must have been. It is not enough that the New Zealand First member was rolled by her colleagues; she has also to live with the fact that her leader, Winston Peters, trumpeted on radio that his party had stopped this bill in its tracks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EThe \u201CPrince of Spin\u201D attributes of Winston Peters have resulted in an aggressive about-turn. We know the spin the New Zealand First leader has put on this. He says that it is someone else\u2019s mistake, not his. Oh, no, not his! But then, an aggressive response to describe a flip-flop or U-turn on Mr Peters\u2019 part is not necessarily surprising. How uncomfortable he must feel to have portrayed himself as the saviour of the users of complementary medicines, and now to have to show that he was leading them astray! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EAs a former nurse, I am certainly not advocating, or supporting, that the risks that currently exist\u2014however small\u2014for the users of therapeutic products and medicines, be ignored. I make the plea that we be given something that keeps the costs down and does not kill the businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI see this bill as a real risk to our health system. Many New Zealanders will end up at their general practitioners, as some of the alternative therapies that work for them disappear from the market. This prospect is frightening many people, and they have come to see me in my electorate office. Many of them are elderly people, who rely on, and trust, these products to give them symptomatic relief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002260200136-9d63-4a82-b4f5-c00411adb1fd\u0022\u003EI also commend Tariana Turia, who has exposed the lack of consultation that has been inherent in the long preparation of the bill. As a new member, I have been interested in how many emails I have received strongly opposing the bill. So I join with my National Party colleagues in strongly opposing this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022356fef4eca7d4c47ba118f189a921fcd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00227549e6ad7c2b461e9af9a11929a22e95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227549e6ad7c2b461e9af9a11929a22e95\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill be considered by the Government Administration Committee, that the committee finally report back the bill to the House on or before 30 April 2007, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 192 and 195(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220959286728aa46bd998b6a0172a516dc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002278dc93e67a2a416e876a5acbb9e1d53e\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fcd1441c0354e0e8b840799e3f7389f\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002212a4a86715c548af9377209fef50a0b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212a4a86715c548af9377209fef50a0b5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the passing through their remaining stages of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, the Telecommunications Amendment Bill, the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill, and any bills into which those bills may be divided; the third readings of the Epidemic Preparedness Bill, the Health Amendment Bill, the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), the Parole Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill (No 2), the Social Security Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill (No 2); the interrupted debate on the first reading of the Copyright (New Technologies and Performers\u2019 Rights) Amendment Bill; the first readings of the Social Security Amendment Bill and the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill; and Government Notice of Motion No. 4. This motion is moved so that the Government\u2019s legislative programme can be completed before the House rises for the summer adjournment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d6907d7b7314242bed02e38477bb5d1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 59\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdbc233290fe430fa3d6b693714e34a3\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022863c1e82eea142da8651f864c93d1f1d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc06777a827641d899dcf51f7d5fc24c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc06777a827641d899dcf51f7d5fc24c\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill be now read a second time. The main feature of this bill is a comprehensive reform of the taxation of income from share investments, whether those investments are made through intermediaries such as managed funds or made directly by individuals. It is a long overdue reform that will put the tax treatment of different types of share investment on a similar footing. That means not only greater fairness for investors but also reducing the distortions in investment decisions so that tax is not the deciding factor in people\u2019s decisions about how to save or invest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt is generally acknowledged that our tax rules on share investment operate very unevenly and create a number of biases. They overtax lower-income people who invest through managed funds, they favour direct investment over investment through intermediaries, and they favour investment in some countries over investment in others. To remedy this longstanding problem the bill introduces a whole new set of tax rules for managed funds, now to be known as portfolio investment entities, and another for offshore portfolio investment in shares. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe first set of new rules puts investment through managed funds on a similar tax footing to that of direct investment in New Zealand and Australian companies. It is particularly important to get the tax treatment of managed funds right because they are the first investment choice for many ordinary investors, whose numbers will increase from July next year when KiwiSaver begins. The proposed portfolio investment entity rules achieve parity of tax treatment of managed funds in two ways: one, by not taxing them on their Australasian share gains, and, two, by taxing income earned at investors\u2019 personal tax rates if lower than 33 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee reports that the main concerns expressed in submissions on the proposed portfolio investment entity rules were that they were too prescriptive, particularly as regards the criteria for eligibility, and too complex. Taking into account those concerns, the committee has recommended several changes to the draft legislation. They include streamlining the eligibility criteria and allowing portfolio investment entities greater flexibility in the way they operate. The committee has also recommended deferring the application date of the new rules to 1 October 2007 to align it with the date that KiwiSaver providers start to receive contributions. That will give funds more time to prepare for what will be a major changeover for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EComprehensive changes to the tax rules on offshore share portfolios are the second limb of the reform of the taxation of income from share investments. This is the area that has overshadowed all else in the bill, and the area that has elicited the greatest number of submissions. The main problem of the current offshore tax rules is that they provide incentives for New Zealanders to invest directly in companies resident in eight \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries, all of which are considered to have tax systems similar to New Zealand\u2019s. The \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries are Australia, Canada, Germany, Japan, Norway, Spain, the United States, and the United Kingdom. The tax problem arises because, under our tax law, income from share investments is generally taxable only on dividends, and companies in \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries do not generally pay high dividends. Therefore, investment in them attracts little or no New Zealand tax. Meanwhile New Zealand investors in companies resident in other countries\u2014for example, Singapore and India, to name two growing investment destinations\u2014have a much higher tax burden. They must pay tax in New Zealand on 100 percent of the increase in the value of their shares each year. That is a major inconsistency in our tax law, and it creates a disincentive to investing in many of the world\u2019s most dynamic economies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe fundamental principle of the reform proposed in this bill is that New Zealanders should pay tax on their investment income regardless of where it is earned. Geography should not come into it. As introduced, the bill proposed removing the \u201Cgrey list\u201D distinction and taxing up to 5 percent of the value of offshore share investments each year. Gains in excess of the 5 percent cap were to be carried forward to be taxed in later years, with losses being deductible in a similar way. The many submissions on this part of the reform were critical of that proposed method, which was seen as too complex and as taxing unrealised capital gains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn response to those concerns as well as to suggestions in a number of submissions that a deemed rate of return method would be preferable, the Minister of Finance and I suggested to the committee that it consider replacing the original proposal with a fair dividend rate method\u2014a form of deemed rate of return. That method would tax investors on 5 percent of the opening market value of shares held at the start of a year. However, individuals investing directly and through family trusts would be able to pay tax on their actual returns if they were lower than 5 percent, with no tax payable when returns were negative. That would deal with the concerns of some people that their offshore investments would be taxed, even if they made a loss in a particular year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe saw the fair-dividend rate as a sensible replacement, both on grounds of simplicity and of fairness, because it would tax something close to a reasonable dividend yield rather than target capital gains. In a second round of consultation, the committee found general agreement that the fair-dividend method was preferable to that originally proposed. Nevertheless, many of those who were consulted preferred a lower fixed rate of between 3 and 4 percent, on the grounds that it was more representative of average offshore dividend yields. The counter argument was that a 5 percent dividend rate would be more suitable because it would approximate the dividend yield of Australasian equities. One should remember here that many other countries have tax rules that discourage dividend payments, which creates many of the inconsistencies that have made this reform necessary in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EHaving listened to all sides in what was an extraordinarily technical debate, the committee has recommended adoption of the 5 percent fair-dividend rate method. Consistent with the idea put forward by Ministers, it would not tax individuals in family trusts in years when they made a loss. Under this approach, managed funds will pay tax on a flat 5 percent of the value of offshore investments, even in years when the return is less. Although some may argue that this creates a disadvantage for managed funds relative to direct investors, the reality is more complex. Under the new rules, managed funds have a number of tax advantages that direct investors do not enjoy, including a tax rate that is capped at 33 percent and Australasian capital gains exemption. It is also very important to remember the major tax disadvantages that the managed funds currently face. At the moment they pay tax on virtually all their capital gains from onshore and offshore shares, and they face a flat 33 percent tax rate, even though many of their investors are on a tax rate of 19.5 percent. These reforms sweep away virtually all those disadvantages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe significant net improvement in the tax position of the New Zealand managed funds sector, under the reforms, is supported by recent analysis by the savings industry. That analysis shows that under a fair-dividend rate method most investors in New Zealand managed funds will enjoy a reduction in the tax they pay on their offshore investments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think the committee has done a magnificent job of forging a consensus where there was none midway through the process. Whether the fixed rate is 5 percent or 3.5 percent is actually almost a detail. The important thing is that the committee has come up with a big picture solution that most can accept. That is a considerable achievement, and I congratulate the committee members on that. The committee has also recommended a number of changes to other matters in the bill, which I fully support but which I do not have the time to go into in detail here. Those are set out in far more detail in the committee\u2019s report, which members will be familiar with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn addition, a Supplementary Order Paper that I released today extends the tax exemption from employer contributions to KiwiSaver to other registered superannuation schemes. This is a further measure to help New Zealanders save for their future. The exemption will apply to schemes and sections within schemes where the benefits paid depend on contributions made and on their returns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI conclude by thanking the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its hard work on this very complex bill, and I commend its report and the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002271818a572dc04a018a355f4f5950f072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271818a572dc04a018a355f4f5950f072\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E This is very important tax legislation. It has the potential to impact severely on investment in this country. The Finance and Expenditure Committee was told, for example, that this legislation has the potential to divert even more investment into residential property in New Zealand\u2014an area where New Zealand does not need more investment. So it is very important legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EQuite contrary to what the Minister of Revenue has just said, the process the Government has gone through, I would argue, is not how we develop sound legislation, at all. One respected submitter to the select committee said that this was legislation through media statement. I want people listening to this debate to know that most people who are interested in taxation matters in New Zealand have had no opportunity to make submissions on this legislation that we are debating tonight. Sure, they had the chance to make submissions on the legislation the Government introduced, but that is totally different from what we are debating tonight. The Government introduced legislation that would shrink the number of \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries and introduce and impose a capital gains tax on 85 percent of the gain on foreign portfolio investments. When I say portfolio investments I mean where New Zealanders have investments and shares offshore and the ownership of the company is less than 10 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe legislation as introduced is what the public and those interested in taxation matters were able to make submissions on. Tonight we are debating something totally different. Tonight we are debating this 5 percent fair dividend tax that the Government has now come up with, halfway through the process. What makes this a bad process is that most of the 2,226 submitters on the original legislation\u2014and, of course, 99 percent of them were against it\u2014never had a chance to make submissions on the subject of our debate tonight. About 12 of those 2,226 submitters on the original legislation were invited by the select committee to make submissions on this totally changed legislation. That is just unfair to the so many other people who made submissions on the new capital gains tax that the Government proposed to introduce. It is so unfair to them that they never had the opportunity at all to make submissions on this 5 percent fair dividend rate tax. Those who did make submissions pointed out that there is nothing fair about this 5 percent fair dividend rate, and there is nothing about just taxing dividends in this 5 percent fair dividend rate. When we look at the international weighted dividend yield, a 5 percent rate clearly taxes capital gains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis Labour - United Future - New Zealand First Government has to decide what it intends to do with this taxation of portfolio investments offshore. Does it intend to tax capital gains, or not? This legislation that we are debating tonight does still tax capital gains. I will get into that detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat makes it even worse is that today a Supplementary Order Paper was introduced. The Minister did not even refer to it in his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad50ead874fa4d6f86e4018dcec3e7ef\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a02d689b70245c88fe9cec1ce0a3079\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise if he did. Today a Supplementary Order Paper has been introduced that makes yet another last-minute change. This is the second time we have seen that. With the KiwiSaver legislation the Government made a last-minute change that no one in the public had the chance to make a submission on, and, again, no one in the public has a chance to make a submission on this very significant last-minute change to this legislation\u2014a change that will extend the exemption from specified superannuation contribution withholding tax from employer contributions to superannuation schemes other than KiwiSaver schemes. Although I accept that that move is something National would support, it is still a matter of principle in New Zealand that the public should have the chance to make submissions on legislation to ensure that the quality of the legislation produced is acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to look at some of the detail of the measures in this bill to impose this 5 percent fair dividend rate. The select committee\u2019s commentary on the bill sets out the Government\u2019s objective. It states: \u201CThe objective of these changes was to tax portfolio investments in offshore companies more consistently, regardless of whether the investment was made through a managed fund, or made directly, and regardless of where the investment was located.\u201D This legislation we are debating does not achieve that objective, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E Managed funds and individuals\u2019 portfolio investments in companies overseas are treated totally differently. For example, if we invest through a managed fund, we are taxed on a 5 percent return, regardless. If we invest as individuals in portfolio investments offshore, we will be taxed on the actual return from those investments in any one year on up to a 5 percent maximum return. It is totally different treatment. If the objective was to make managed funds and individuals\u2019 taxation the same when investing offshore, then it would have been quite simple to change that and to make the two policies consistent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe provisions to enable individuals to be taxed at a return below that 5 percent flat rate for managed funds are complex. I will mention this exchange, although it is probably a bit unfair to one of our advisers. At the select committee we asked a very senior adviser who knows this legislation inside out whether he would bother to have his portfolio investments offshore taxed at an actual return rate. This very experienced adviser indicated to the select committee that he probably would not. He indicated that the provisions are so complex that it would not be worth the candle to do it, and that he would probably just pay the tax on the 5 percent flat return. When a senior adviser who knows the legislation inside out suggests that it is too complex to bother trying to get the benefit of being taxed on less than that 5 percent return, we clearly have very, very complex legislation and, I suggest, totally unsatisfactory legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAnother big difference is a $50,000 de minimis for individual investors. In other words, individual investors have a $50,000 zone of investment offshore on which they are not taxed. If they invest through a fund, they do not have that. Funds will be consistently taxed, therefore, more than the investments of private individuals. That $50,000 de minimis means there will be no tax to pay on a $50,000 investment. If $50,001 is invested, the full tax rate is paid on the lot. The effective marginal tax rate on those extra few dollars above $50,000 is thousands of percent. The result is that wives, children, and pets will all be listed as having shares offshore, because no one in his right mind would pay those kinds of marginal tax rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe select committee was advised that managed funds in New Zealand will migrate to Australia because, with the complexity of these rules, it just will not be worth being involved in New Zealand. If we invest in private companies offshore, then either those will have to be revalued every year or we will have to pay tax on an assumed 5 percent gain. We were told at the select committee that this legislation will make it hard to recruit highly skilled people internationally. It was pointed out to us that if the value of the New Zealand dollar drops, people will be taxed just if the currency shifts. If people get a New Zealand return, then they can be taxed just on a New Zealand dollar shift. The New Zealand dollar value of offshore investments may go up if the New Zealand dollar drops, and people would be taxed just on that currency shift. If the value of people\u2019s investments drop this year, they will not be taxed. If next year the value returns to the same level it started at last year, then people will be taxed on that gain, yet their net position will be unchanged. They will be no better off, but they will be taxed on that gain just by the value returning to where it started. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut the most serious thing, as so many experienced funds managers pointed out to the select committee, is that this legislation will distort investment. It will provide a serious disincentive to invest offshore in a diversified portfolio. This legislation will provide an even greater incentive for New Zealanders to bring back their money from overseas and invest in residential property here in New Zealand. People get the capital gains free and the returns are far better, so why would they not? This is bad legislation because of all those complexities and distortions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00226f7e563f20ab4f10b24b43f3f27ea1a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f7e563f20ab4f10b24b43f3f27ea1a9\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, and we do so because it is a genuine attempt to make investment fairer across the board. Members will know that we have not had complete agreement in our caucus. I think members can take from that that we in New Zealand First have had a very, very robust debate on this issue, have not come to our conclusions lightly, and have not given the bill just a once-over-lightly. We have gone into it in depth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt has always been iniquitous that what I like to call managed funds in New Zealand have been taxed at a rate of 33 percent, whereas other investments have been taxed at the taxation level of the investor. Under this bill there will be a flow-through effect for those people who are on a lower tax rate and who invest largely in managed funds because they either do not have the expertise to invest for themselves or do not want to be bothered with it. I have said in earlier speeches that when the current leader of the National Party, John Key, was on our Finance and Expenditure Committee, he seemed to come from the angle\u2014and I do not blame him for it, because this is his area of expertise\u2014that every person who invests is an expert, every person who invests comes from a background of expertise, but that is way beyond the actual case in New Zealand. This bill, for the first time, makes an attempt to look after the mum and dad investors. We have to do that, because there is a flow-through effect for KiwiSaver. The bill recognises, even then, that there are some small differences, and, at the end of the day, we have had to accept a few compromises in this bill, which we knew we would have to do\u2014that was always recognised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is pretty rich for Dr Lockwood Smith\u2014who has been a valuable member of the select committee, I might say\u2014to say that there was an unprecedented number of submitters on the original bill, and that not much diligence was shown in producing the modified bill as set out by the Minister of Revenue at the beginning of this debate. I would suggest most strongly that that is the proper response of a proper, democratic select committee. If there is a whole bunch of submitters\u2014and on this bill there were close to 3,000\u2014and there is significant opposition to a bill, surely the right thing to do is to change that bill, and to change it substantially in line with what the submitters require. That is exactly and precisely what has been done in this case, yet Dr Lockwood Smith criticises that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe know that National members are not absolutely staunch in their criticism of this bill, because they too recognise that, although it is in some ways a compromise, it is a huge step forward. We know that, because those members have said that if they were to come to power some years hence, they would not change it, they would not kick this bill out, and that is politics-speak for saying that they actually agree with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ERather than criticise the select committee and the Government for changing the bill, I applaud the select committee, of which I am a proud member. I applaud the chairman of that select committee, the officials, and the Minister for listening to submitters. It would be a very barren Parliament, I suggest, that did not listen to close to 3,000 people on an issue such as this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESomething that I, certainly, can take away from the select committee process is an insight into the issues that surround financial investment. I was impressed by the level of investment that people in this country make, and the level of care and foresight that they put into looking after themselves in their old age, looking after their families, and, in fact, looking after their grandchildren, by way of investment. It was quite touching, actually, to see people come to talk to the select committee not only on their own behalf\u2014although most did that, I must say\u2014but also on behalf of others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022098d57e6d838422389801b7a8143db51\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: In the 4 minutes and 30 seconds I have remaining I would like to speak about the fair dividend rate, which is something the select committee settled on to take care of the conundrum of taxing equally everybody in the investment market. Dr Lockwood Smith has criticised the fair dividend rate of 5 percent, saying that it is not fair and is too high. I point out to him that in actual fact the deemed dividend rate, which he and his party would have supported\u2014and I know this because of conversations in the select committee\u2014would have worked out at about 3.4 percent in normal circumstances. I am sure the Minister will nod at me if I am correct. So the fair dividend rate of 5 percent is not too far away from the 3 percent deemed dividend rate that National would favour. But the fair dividend rate does not tax an investor in the year of a loss, whereas the National Party\u2019s proposed 3 percent deemed dividend rate would tax the investment even in years of a loss. Dr Lockwood Smith fails to mention that National would support a regime that taxed people when they made a loss. We in New Zealand First\u2014dare I say it, we on this side of the House\u2014would never agree to such a situation, because tax not only has to be fair but also has to be seen to be fair, for people to participate in a voluntary tax regime that we run in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EJust before I run out of time, I want to endorse, this time, a statement made by Dr Lockwood Smith, but I want to endorse it from a different perspective. We believe that most people, instead of going through all of the calculations required to pay this tax on their investment, will just forget about doing that. They will not bother with accountants, they will not bother mucking around, and they will not worry about the infinite detail; they will simply pay the 5 percent on a regular basis at the beginning of each year. What does that tell us, and why do I mention it? If people really thought this fair dividend rate, at 5 percent, was unfair\u2014as they are proposing tongue-in-cheek\u2014they would not do such a thing. They would hire accountants, and go to the end of the earth to do whatever calculations it took to avoid paying that amount. But they see it as fair, and I suggest\u2014and it is certainly the view of the Government members on the select committee and those of us who support the Government\u2014that by and large it will be paid straight up by most people. They will pay the 5 percent rather than muck around working out the calculations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is true to say that most submitters would have favoured no change at all. Most people who presented to the select committee were direct investors who get tax rates that are not available to what I call the ordinary Kiwi. That is what this bill sets out to redress, and it is no wonder, in that case, that most people who submitted were opposed to the bill. Given that, and given that the select committee made the changes that most people would have wished us to make, it is fair to say that New Zealand First members are pretty confident in supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00228680d49cd51e4be89e45286aaa629cd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228680d49cd51e4be89e45286aaa629cd0\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I think the previous speaker, Doug Woolerton, just showed how bereft the Government\u2019s general approach to tax policy is becoming when he set forth, for the benefit of the House, the rather radical idea that this legislation is good because it is too complicated for people to get fair taxation, so they will go for the simple version, which means they will pay more than they should. Well, that is a bad principle of tax policy. It should be the case that any taxpayer is able to understand their liability\u2014that being a fairly calculated liability. Instead, New Zealand First have decided\u2014maybe it was intentional\u2014to make the alternative so complicated that all direct investors will end up paying the higher rate when they could have got a lower one. This is actually a bad principle, and it raises the issue of just what tax principles the Government now adheres to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe know this is a difficult area. I can recall giving speeches on tax measures related to exactly this problem almost 10 years ago\u20141986, or 1987, I think; maybe it was 1998\u2014when the whole thing fell over, partly because of the complexity that is now built into this law. In that case, the member Doug Woolerton may be interested to know, it was his party that pulled the plug, for exactly the reason that he said that he supports this bill. Last time it pulled the plug because it was too complicated for an individual taxpayer to be taxed at the right rate. Today he said that he supports the legislation because it is too complicated for an individual taxpayer to be taxed at the right rate. Well, I guess that is just politics and the passage of time. So I acknowledge that this is a difficult area, and National does to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EActually, a significant number of taxpayers will be better off. The Government has given up what looks like about $150 million of revenue by taxing people in the managed funds at the right rate\u2014that being their own rate\u2014and it will stop taxing capital gains. Those are good things. But the Government\u2019s tax principles are getting harder and harder to divine. Certainly, this process has been a mess, just like the KiwiSaver process was. The only saving grace is that this result is better than what would have happened if Government members had not changed their minds, and completely bypassed the generic tax policy process to get a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EJust when I thought maybe it was worth the effort, today the Government announced a major change directly relevant to this regime, saying it will extend exemption from the specified superannuation contributions withholding tax to superannuation funds that meet the criteria. The generic tax policy process stood the test of time, and it is a real pity the Government has abandoned it\u2014a real shame\u2014because in the long run it will undermine the confidence of tax practitioners and taxpayers in the policy-making process. It might suit the Government in the short term\u2014and we are seeing this fading Government take more and more short-term measures\u2014but in the long term it will lead to greater complexity, less compliance, and less certainty about our tax system. Any Government needs consistent reminding by taxpayers about the impact of tax measures on them, and those taxpayers need real and active opportunities to help shape the policy, because that is what buys them into it. I would like to hear from the Government tonight as to whether it intends all its tax measures to now bypass the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe are seeing an accumulation of multiplying complexity in our tax system. From the day the Government decided to put the top tax rate up to 39c, we have seen a whole industry redevelop\u2014one that I thought we had got rid of. It used to be the bad old days when people spent as much time working out their tax liability as they did creating wealth. Well, particularly when it comes to anything to do with international taxes, and anything to do with savings and superannuation, people are now back into that business. There is more and more complexity for no obvious or well-specified benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI cannot help thinking Dr Cullen has fallen into the trap of his own cleverness. He has now moved away from the basic, sound tax principles of broad bases, low rates, and no holes. He has now decided that he is the tax magician. He is sitting there in his office, pulling a credit here, an exemption there, a deduction there, a concession over there\u2014and New Zealanders are the rats in the laboratory, who are all meant to follow around according to the particular incentives and signals that Dr Cullen is trying to send. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe abandonment of the generic tax policy process is a symptom of the fact that the Government is losing its rationale for how it is operating the tax system. It has become totally focused on ad hoc decisions driven by political forces, and on trying to square up revenue, when it knows it could actually afford to give it away. So that is the problem with the Government\u2019s principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ETo return to the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill itself, is it not fascinating to see how our perception of different policy measures can change. When the McLeod Tax Review first came up with the idea of taxing deemed returns, it was regarded\u2014by probably most people\u2014as quite radical. It is quite a logical idea, but at the time that report came out, back in 2001, there was really no political interest in it. Yet, here we are where the same kind of measure\u2014not exactly the same, but similar\u2014has turned out to be the one way of rescuing one of the long-running tax problems that the Government has had to deal with. I give the Finance and Expenditure Committee some credit for coming up with a better solution, because if they had not, this, of course, would have been a disaster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt is also clear from the select committee process that the Government vastly underestimated how many Kiwis were behaving in a rational way and directly investing savings overseas. I do not think the Government actually believed anyone was doing it; or it believed that if they did it then they were rich fat cats and deserved to get slugged. But, of course, the select committee was overwhelmed with several thousand submissions. Is it not ironic that Dr Cullen lectured us endlessly about not investing in housing and about the need to diversify and to get into financial investments, but remained completely unaware of the fact that thousands of Kiwis were already doing it? That is a serious question. How did the Government ever conceive that its original measures would be acceptable? It could only be because Government members were either ignorant or stupid: ignorant in that they did not know the scale of direct investment by New Zealanders, or stupid in that they knew and thought people were going to wear the original proposals\u2014and, of course, those people did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI am particularly concerned about the Supplementary Order Paper that the Government has put down that extends the exemption to employers\u2019 superannuation schemes. Dr Cullen is now put in a position where he looks like he never thought of it. He came up with this measure, did not think about the implications of it, then, at the last minute, realised that he was going to skew investment patterns if he did not have the same exemptions for employers\u2019 superannuation schemes as he had for KiwiSaver. Now, is that not sloppy policy? One would have thought that in any regime in which the Government was looking at changing the regime on taxes on savings, the connections from one bit to another would have been thoroughly examined and understood, and built into the original proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESome of this legislation does represent progress. But I would have to say that the environment in which it has been pushed forward gives me real concern\u2014both because the Government has abandoned good principles of tax policy, and also because it is clear from its very significant last-minute manoeuvre to extend the exemption to employers\u2019 superannuation schemes that it had not thought through the policy. It just had not thought about the connections, which are pretty obvious. There is a whole Inland Revenue Department full of officials over there, and Treasury, and, apparently, the smartest Minister of Finance the world has ever seen, yet they had never thought of it until yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022321b3cdf3383464fa459aaf3b20513da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022321b3cdf3383464fa459aaf3b20513da\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E There are certain principles that a good tax system ought to try to observe. They would include having a broad-based system with a wide range of tax sources so that none of them needed to be taxed at too high a rate. They would include having a system that was fair in two senses: first, that people in the same situation were treated the same and, second, that people were taxed according to ability to pay. A good tax system should be easy for the taxpayer to understand and comply with, and it should be easy for the Government to administer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe present tax system does not meet those tests, and neither does the tax system set out by the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. The bill does address some anomalies, but in doing so it creates others. Overall, it replaces a dog\u2019s breakfast with a different kind of dog\u2019s breakfast. The Greens would like to vote for the annual rates and for the pass-through rules for managed funds, which we strongly support. But we would like to vote against the overseas investment rules, which are, overall, no more fair or simple than the present system. We will therefore abstain at this reading and at the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe current system of tax has some major faults. We currently tax all those activities we want most to encourage: work and enterprise. We currently leave untaxed those activities we most wish to discourage: waste, pollution, use of scarce resources, and speculation. However, this bill does not address those issues at all\u2014they are not on the Government\u2019s radar, despite our efforts. So I will turn to those matters that are addressed by the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe current situation does not treat taxpayers who are in like situations in a like manner, so the system already breaches that principle. Overseas investors are treated differently depending on whether they are in countries on the \u201Cgrey list\u201D or in some other overseas country. Investors on a low tax rate pay more if they invest in managed funds than if they invest directly. Investors who are on a 39c tax rate pay less tax if they invest through a managed fund than if they invest directly. Investment in property is treated quite differently from investments in the sharemarket, and, I believe, strongly biases investment towards property, which has a lot of other side effects. Some investments pay no tax at all because they pay no dividend and all of the gains are paid out as capital gains, which are untaxed. So looking at that particular dog\u2019s breakfast, we can see that the bill solves a few of those problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe look-through rule for the portfolio investment entities is a very good move, and we support it, but if people\u2019s tax rate is 19c in the dollar, then that is all they should be paying, regardless of whether they invest directly or through a managed fund. However, the bill does not address the fact that people on a 39c tax rate are still advantaged if they invest through a managed fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe bill tries to deal with those UK entities that pay no or little dividend and that provide all the benefit through a capital gain, but it does not deal with them very well. In the process of trying to solve those problems, the bill creates more anomalies. As the bill was introduced, it removed capital gains tax on New Zealand and Australian investments and put it on investments in countries on the \u201Cgrey list\u201D\u2014those eight countries that have previously been exempt. That created far more howls of protest and outrage than the revenue effect actually justified. The bill provided an exemption, after negotiation, for one company that had particularly skilled lobbyists. It also provided exemptions for people with investments of less than $50,000\u2014but many KiwiSavers will find that as their savings accumulate they will shoot through that ceiling of $50,000 and become liable for tax on those investments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThere were a huge number of submissions. The Finance and Expenditure Committee sat for weeks and weeks to hear them, and they were very similar. As a result of those submissions we suddenly got a Supplementary Order Paper. After all those weeks of getting our heads around the incredible complications of the capital gains tax regime, we then found overnight that the capital gains tax regime had gone\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9c43e6a9d924a01b5e90c46aa5283b8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Sort of gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206b181bf48ae4b0eb3fedec178042e39\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: Sort of gone. We still have an exemption for one company, which still has its very skilled lobbyists, and we still have the exemption for investments up to $50,000. The system still treats Australia and New Zealand differently from the rest of the world, and one of the anomalies we have now is that that creates real boundary problems. What is a New Zealand company or an Australian company? Can it be defined? Submitters suggested to us that it would be very difficult to determine whether a company was a New Zealand company or Australian\u2014what about its parentage, its subsidiaries, and so on? The system still treats investment in property and investment in shares on quite a different basis. So the bill has made a good attempt to address some anomalies, but it has created others in the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAfter hearing submitter after submitter say that the bill was unfair because it did not treat like investors in the same way, that it was hugely complex and people would need an accountant and a tax lawyer to comply with it, that taxpayers would find it hard to follow, and that finance companies and managed funds would find it hard to comply with, I eventually started asking questions of those submitters. I asked quite a number of questions. I asked whether it would be fairer and simpler if instead of all this dog\u2019s breakfast we had a straightforward capital gains tax on all income from capital gains across the board, with no exemptions. All the submitters to whom I put that question said that that would undoubtedly be simpler but that politicians would never go there. I wrote down the answer that John Shewan gave me. He said we would not be sitting here today if we had a comprehensive capital gains tax across all types of investment. So I am disappointed that the Government has chosen, yet again, not to look at that possibility. It would not be very hard to sell it to the public if it was made clear that additional tax would not be taken and that a broad-based capital gains tax would enable tax rates of other sorts to be lowered, particularly income tax rates. The Greens\u2019 preference would be to use the tax to provide a tax-free band at the bottom of the income tax scale, which would mean every taxpayer got the same rebate. However, the Government has not gone there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe absence of a capital gains tax is distortionary in other ways. It certainly is a big contributor to the overheated property market and to inflation, and that has been identified by the Governor of the Reserve Bank. The absence of a capital gains tax makes things very difficult because it distorts investment behaviour into property. People\u2019s second homes and investment properties push prices up. Young families cannot get housing and cannot get their own homes. It would be entirely possible to exempt the primary family home for every family from capital gains tax but to charge it on all other kinds of property investments. That would stabilise property prices, stabilise the housing market, enable young families to get into housing, help with the inflation rate, and help with New Zealanders\u2019 level of indebtedness, whereby they are borrowing against these ridiculously inflated house prices in the assumption that prices will go on rising, whereas we know that a day will come when they will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b81da689208a458ca56577571bd9effa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b81da689208a458ca56577571bd9effa\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou. Firstly, I acknowledge the efforts of my committee members on this marathon task of dealing with the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. However, I must say that when we prepared to break into a subcommittee and hear from the four winds what the various submitters had to say, no one was more vocal than John Key about insisting that we spend the time and give concentration and effort to the people from Auckland, particularly the submitters, because they are high-quality, very influential, and likely to offer very coherent views that might influence the Government\u2019s policy. It came as a great disappointment, but not as a surprise, to Doug Woolerton and others that the very person who never showed up to any of the hearings was John Key. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI give full marks to the deputy chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014my fellow Northlander\u2014who, when we became bored of talking about tax, compared notes about bulls. Before I talk about anyone else in the committee, I pay a vote of thanks to Robin Oliver and his team. We were served up an array of problems, and the committee went through a series of permutations, but I must say to Mr Oliver and his team that they attended to our every need, answered all of the questions, and followed us from Auckland, Wellington, and down to Christchurch. So I pay a vote of thanks to them. Irrespective of who the Minister might be, or, perish the thought, who the party might be, we are well served by Robin Oliver and his team. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet us move to the lame, very vacuous assertions that have been made by Mr English and others that we abandoned process. Let us get a few facts on the table. Fact number one is that no one less than Sir Roger Douglas recently commented to me, when I saw him at a social occasion, that this problem has bedevilled many Governments. It caused him some consternation and it defeated Ruth Richardson. Indeed, we have employed and seen a host of experts come through the process and offer us their views, such as my good friend Rob McLeod and Mr Stobo, and it fell to this committee to craft a suitable and reasonable solution to a longstanding problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn crafting this solution, I remind everyone that there have been about eight policy documents over the last year, or slightly longer, so anyone who is suggesting to the public\u2014who, no doubt, are riveted, listening to these speeches at the end of the year\u2014that due process was destroyed is not dealing with the facts. At the end of our process we provided an opportunity for nigh on 15 to 20 of New Zealand\u2019s experts to give us their view about the fair dividend rate model. Of course, there are a host of other aspects to this bill, but the fair dividend rate model worked most people into a lather, and it was all based on misinformation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI cannot say with any authority that that misinformation was fed by the Opposition, but there was gross misinformation that was no doubt aided by the accountants whose capacity to add value is inversely related to the costs they charge. However, absolute opportunity was created for the experts throughout the commercial community. Prior to that, we heard from all members of the submitter community who wanted an opportunity to put forward their submissions or to speak to their submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt became apparent to the long-serving, highly productive, and industrious committee members, aided by Mr Woolerton and our friends from the minority parties, that this bill, in the context of MMP politics, aided with great advice from the officials, could be improved upon. That is the essence of parliamentary democracy. One is served up legislation on a select committee, and nothing is incapable of being improved upon. We heard from the submitters that the model we dubbed the 85 percent model was certainly capable of being enhanced. We had the opportunity to hear from Mr John Shewan from PricewaterhouseCoopers. He promoted the model of a deemed rate. Initially, that model gained some favour. However, he himself lost his enthusiasm to advocate for it, presumably because some of his own clients did not like the idea\u2014they wanted to pay zero tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EFrom out of the atmosphere that comprises parliamentary democracy we received a letter from the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Revenue, who invited us to study the fair dividend rate model. This particular part of the bill generated most of the submissions, and we concentrated on it\u2014some might say disproportionately, but we gave it a suitable amount of effort and time\u2014and we have delivered what, I think, is a reasonable compromise at this point in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere have been earlier references to the importance of simplicity. The 5 percent model for the funds industry is a paragon of simplicity. To take into consideration the anxieties of the direct investors, we have maintained the de minimis. We have also given them the opportunity to pay on that which they actually earn. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThroughout the entire process, Mr Woolerton, myself, and\u2014indeed\u2014Mr Copeland, asked individual submitters what they were actually earning when they put their dough into international equities, and why were they content to continue leaving their investments marooned at a 1.5 percent to 2 percent return. Of course, we never got a satisfactory answer. In many cases we were led to believe that the full return on that investment was actually wrapped up in a capital receipt, rammed back home to escape the tax net. How, if we let that happen, are we going to meet the cost of hospitals, roads, and a whole variety of other public-good investments? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere has been some loose and very ill-informed language about this being a capital gains tax. Nothing\u2014nothing\u2014in this legislation suggests to me that it is a capital gains tax. It is a tax on the dividend and on that portion of the dividend that sits in the growing equity, and it takes an approximation of what a reasonable person is going to earn. Who on earth is putting millions of dollars overseas for anything less than 5 percent? As no one less august than Winston Peters has said, people may as well leave their money in the Kiwibank. Those are words that obviously reflect many years of wisdom as a long-term parliamentarian. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHowever, I would like to say, in wrapping up, that the select committee worked together well. We had our differences, and part of the bill is supported, and part is not supported, by our friends from National. But we were there as legislators and agreed to park the adversarialism in the House and endeavour to do the best that we could with the hordes of submitters writing to us and wanting to speak to us. In levels of interest\u2014some I hope as a parliamentarian never to see again\u2014Bruce Sheppard looms very large on that list. No doubt, in what passes for my career, we will see a lot more of him. But we have a great deal of support out there amongst the professional advisers and the investment industry, especially those coming from the funds industry, because they have certainty, they have simplicity, and I think, in time, they will come to love what they have been served up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u002207278a7dcf8c44eb89761bd983a13f3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207278a7dcf8c44eb89761bd983a13f3c\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Amidst all of the fanfare that came with the 2006 census figures last week, there were a couple of facts that are relevant to the debate today. Fact No. 1 is that for M\u0101ori aged 15 years and over, the median income is $20,900. For all New Zealanders the median income is $24,400. That is a tangible difference between M\u0101ori and everyone else of $3,500. Fact No. 2 is that 10.2 percent of M\u0101ori have an annual income of more than $50,000 compared with 18 percent of all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESome members may be familiar with a gentleman by the name of Henry Ward Beecher, a Presbyterian minister who, like his sister Harriet, advocated for the abolition of slavery and for the right to social justice. One of his sayings was: \u201CIn this world it is not what we take up, but what we give up, that makes us rich.\u201D Looking at the situation described in those census statistics, and being mindful of the ever-increasing gaps between rich and poor in this land, the M\u0101ori Party comes to the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill wondering what this Government will give up in order to make all New Zealanders rich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party taxation policy is driven by two key forces: manaakitanga and rangatiratanga. The application of manaakitanga would be evident in acknowledging the mana of others as having importance that is equal to or greater than one\u2019s own, through the expression of aroha, hospitality, generosity and mutual respect. In practising rangatiratanga, there is an emphasis on following through on commitments made, and integrity and honesty are demonstrated. So it is that manaakitanga and rangatiratanga lead us to address the 1.9 million taxpayers in this nation who are on an income of less than $25,000. Those people are paying a massive $3.5 billion in tax while at the same time the Government accumulates surpluses that, in the last financial year, have totalled an amount of $11 billion. So we look to those people in any initiative that is seemingly designed to enhance the economic position of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe central feature of this bill is meant to be a reform of the taxation of income from share investments\u2014New Zealand - based managed funds or direct investment\u2014with the clear purpose of removing inconsistencies. The M\u0101ori Party is certainly supportive of any initiative that can act in a way to enhance fairness and consistency in savings policies. We know that the current taxation rules on share investment have needed an overhaul for quite some time. The treatment of individuals and companies has been, at best, uneven. Direct investment by individuals appears to have been favoured over investment through managed funds. Some investors are overtaxed. So this bill was intended to place the taxation treatment of different types of share investment on an equal footing. The bill is branded as introducing greater fairness into the rules and reducing the distortions that are evident in current taxation policy. Well, that is all well and good. But does it do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn order to understand the reform, we need to take the widest possible view. To look at only part of the picture will inevitably short-change those New Zealanders who are looking for greater fairness in the way their investment income is taxed. Despite the stated purpose of reducing the taxation distortions on investments, the bill introduces an ad hoc capital gains tax regime rather than one that has consistency. The bill also attempts harmonisation between Australia and Aotearoa, allowing equity between investors operating in both countries. In effect, that means New Zealanders can invest in Australia instead of New Zealand without a taxation penalty. We need to ask what benefit it will be to the nation if people invest elsewhere. The bill suggests that from next year, people who invest in New Zealand - based managed funds will see greater fairness in the way their investment income is taxed. The new rules will remove several taxation disadvantages for people who invest through managed funds, many of whom are described as ordinary, middle-income savers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EInto that mix, let us throw the humble New Zealand pie. We are not talking about the mince and cheese variety. The pie introduced in this bill is a portfolio investment entity, which comprises any savings vehicle that elects to go into the regime. The bill removes the current major taxation disadvantages from New Zealand managed funds: the full tax on capital gains and overtaxation of low-rate investors. By treating those funds in a similar way to direct investment by individuals, the disadvantages are removed. Investors in actively managed funds who invest offshore would be significantly better off under the fair dividend rate than under the current rules. Alongside that, the Finance and Expenditure Committee reported that investors in actively managed funds who invest offshore would be significantly better off under the fair dividend rate that it has recommended than under the current tax rules. We note, too, that for individual investors and family trusts, if the return on investment is less than 5 percent of the opening market value, individual investors and family trusts will not be taxed at the fair dividend rate\u20145 percent\u2014but at a lower rate, or they will pay no tax. So we are in the same situation, again, of some people paying tax and others not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned about the tax increase on superannuation contributions that faces lower-income earners, who are being made to offset the risk of \u201Csalary sacrifice\u201D by higher-income earners. It is those people who form the \u201Cnot\u201D category that we speak of today. Although we support the removal of the different taxation rates from those who invest directly and those who invest through managed funds, our primary concern is about those New Zealanders who struggle to put kai on their tables, let alone to contribute to a savings culture. Every dollar of a poor person is taxed, including the dollars of those persons on benefits. However, this bill determines that those on high incomes have the means to benefit from asset value increases, which are non-taxable. We have to ask whether that is fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOur other key concern around the whole concept of a savings culture is associated with our concerns around the concept of the genuine progress index. That is the argument that says we need to broaden the tax base, so that taxation is also used as a valid means of demonstrating the real costs of pollution and environmental damage. In the context of the capital gains tax, for example, we know that investors are receiving taxation concessions even though it is not known whether any actual income is being made. If income were calculated on the full cost basis, the actual capital gain might be negative, but investors have no idea of how much depletion of, or damage to, the environment is occurring. There is a good chance that capital gains are overstated, and a good possibility that there is no capital gain. Thus, although a company may be able to claim a positive and growing wealth, it is a false claim, a false measure of wealth, because it has failed to take account of all the costs involved. The notion of gain and wealth masks potential, because that is not really accounted for. The market response to that argument is that the market knows, and that it takes all of that into account. The genuine reply to that is to ask how the market knows, because it is not being measured. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, it is appropriate to refer to the recent study, released last week, by the World Institute for Development Economics Research. The Helsinki-based institute has estimated that the richest 2 percent of adults own more than half of global wealth, while the bottom half of the population own a mere 1 percent. If 2 percent of adults have more than half of the world\u2019s wealth, including property and financial assets, in their hands, I ask whether that is fair. Is it just that in Aotearoa the proportion of all children who are in severe or significant hardship has increased from 18 percent to 26 percent since 2000? Is it socially desirable that the people who suffer the greatest poverty in New Zealand are our children, with 38 percent of them in the hardship categories? I remind the House of the statement I made earlier: in this world it is not what we take up, but what we give up, that makes us rich. What are we prepared to give up in order to enhance wealth creation for all citizens of Aotearoa? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI advise the Minister that the M\u0101ori Party is a little ambivalent with regard to this bill. Our concerns regarding poverty and the big picture lead us to vote against it at this point in time, but we are prepared to consider other views further on. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002294ca71c0ebe845c49f7eed0027511bb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294ca71c0ebe845c49f7eed0027511bb8\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E In my maiden speech to Parliament on 29 August 2002, I stated that one of my goals in coming into Parliament was to overhaul a discriminatory tax system that skews New Zealand investment in the direction of housing while starving business of much-needed capital growth. That was something identified for us by Sir Ivor Richardson, one of New Zealand\u2019s tax experts, in the 1988 Royal Commission on Social Policy. The United States, for example, has 34 percent of total household assets in housing, and 66 percent in other investment assets such as stocks and bonds. New Zealand is diametrically the opposite, with 61 percent in housing and just 39 percent in growth-orientated assets. So immediately I came into Parliament, I began working on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EPrior to coming into Parliament, it was obvious to me that saving through interest-yielding bonds, stocks, and shares, etc., through superannuation funds and other managed funds were greatly disadvantaged in New Zealand when compared with the alternative of investing in the rental housing market. I was well aware of those realities, because during the 1980s when hundreds of New Zealand corporates were busy winding up their staff superannuation schemes, I was busy setting one up for the Catholic Archdiocese of Wellington. I well remember the disappointment of staff members over the next few years that the returns achieved through the fund, which was managed by a large financial service organisation, were below their expectations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EDisadvantage, of course, is a relative thing, but I am here referring to the high degree of overtaxation on investment through superannuation and other portfolio investment funds, when compared with the alternative of investment in the residential rental housing market. I will briefly outline the three major disadvantages, because when this taxation bill becomes law this week, they will all have been overcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe first was in relation to the taxation rate on employers\u2019 contributions on behalf of their staff superannuation funds. Those contributions, when I came into Parliament, were taxed at a flat rate of 33c in the dollar, which of course greatly disadvantaged the many staff saving through those funds, whose marginal tax rate was just 19.5 percent. Still, to this day, 75 percent of all New Zealand taxpayers pay tax at 19.5 percent or less. However, the top tax rates on such contributions had remained capped at 33c. Early on in the last Parliament I took that point up with Dr Michael Cullen, and the tax on such contributions was adjusted to the marginal tax rate of the saver, in the 2003 Budget. The first disadvantage had been removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe second problem was that savers\u2019 earnings in portfolio investment funds were also taxed at a flat rate of 33c in the dollar. Others have mentioned that Roger Douglas grappled with that problem. Various Ministers of Finance during the 1990s grappled with that problem, but when I came into Parliament such funds were still taxed at a flat rate of 33c in the dollar. That, of course, also greatly disadvantages the vast majority of New Zealanders, who have a marginal tax rate of 19.5 percent. On this issue, early in 2003 I worked very constructively with both Dr Michael Cullen and Vance Arkinstall of the Investment Savings and Insurance Association. We looked at how we could practically ensure that those savers were taxed at their correct marginal tax rate\u2014again, leaving in place the 33c cap. The issue is fairly technical, and previous attempts to resolve it during the 1980s and the 1990s had not managed to crack this difficult nut. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnited Future, therefore, advanced the matter with the Government in its Budget bids for both 2004 and 2005, and I am therefore truly delighted that the problem is resolved through the portfolio investment entity and see-through provisions contained in this bill. Henceforth, savers will be taxed at their correct marginal rates. Disadvantage No. 2 has been successfully overcome after a span of 20 or so years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EDisadvantage No. 3 was the fact that investors, through superannuation funds and other portfolio investment funds, were subject to capital gains tax on share investments. That reality is completely skewed, and was the principal tax distortion I mentioned in my maiden speech. It has now, for some two decades, been tilting New Zealand investment away from company equities and towards residential rental properties. We like to think that New Zealand does not have a capital gains tax, but that has not\u2014at least, for the last two decades\u2014been true of share investments through managed funds. We have had a capital gains tax on such investments for that period of time. Craig Stobo was one of those who, early on after my coming to Parliament, was a passionate advocate of seeing that distortion removed. I strongly picked up on the theme and, again, it was included in United Future\u2019s Budget bid for both 2004 and 2005. That anomaly is also removed in this tax bill, so problem No. 3 is resolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe net result of those three disadvantages being overcome is that for the first time in a couple of decades we can now say that we will have something of a level playing field between investment in stocks and shares on the one hand, and investment in the residential rental housing market on the other. This is a great step forward for New Zealand and for New Zealand savers. In addition, this bill pretty much irons out any differences between individual investors\u2014that is, people who invest their own funds using their own skill and expertise\u2014and the much larger number of New Zealanders who save through portfolio investment entities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThese measures, combined with the KiwiSaver initiative, which will kick in from 1 July 2007, should see New Zealand at long last begin to build a far more balanced savings portfolio. That, in turn, will give new momentum and strength to both the New Zealand economy and to the financial security of New Zealanders and their families. It will give financial security to people in their retirement years and to families during a person\u2019s working life as he or she prepares for retirement, as these two things come together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ETherefore, the second reading of this bill tonight is actually a moment to savour. It successfully, and at last, delivers on what various Governments of all shades\u2014starting with Labour in the 1980s, moving on to National in the 1990s, and reverting back to Labour again in 1999\u2014have failed to solve. At long last we have some real solutions to take New Zealand forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to talk a little bit about residential housing investment and emphasise that a lot of myths have circulated in New Zealand over, probably, the last 20 years in relation to this issue. I am talking here about books that have been written encouraging Kiwis to dump their funds into residential housing investment, some of which perpetuate myths about the tax system that are factually incorrect. For example, there is a myth abroad that there is no capital gains tax on investment in residential housing. Well, that is not true. It is true that when people invest in that area they can deduct the interest on the money they borrow for the house, then deduct depreciation on it and, therefore, gain a timing tax advantage as compared with some other forms of investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHowever, I emphasise that in recent times action by the Inland Revenue Department, with strong support from United Future and from Dr Alan Bollard of the Reserve Bank, has ensured that gains made through capital growth, and assessment of depreciation recovered when a house is sold, are taxed when a rental property is sold in circumstances where the owner, in the first instance, purchased the property with the intent of resale in mind. That has actually been the law of New Zealand for many, many years. Some of the myths that have been perpetrated in that regard have been singularly unhelpful in terms of the design of New Zealand\u2019s overall macro savings situation. Undoubtedly, the great driver of the great majority of rental property owners is that they do buy those houses with the intent of reselling them at an appropriate time and making what they think will be a tax-free capital gain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to encourage the Inland Revenue Department to remain vigilant in ensuring that the law is upheld in that way. Over the last 3 years the department has assessed literally millions of dollars extra in tax by looking into those arrangements in a little more depth. It is very, very important that it keeps that up so New Zealand can at last approach the situation I would like to see\u2014that is, about 50 percent of assets are in housing and 50 percent are in other forms of investment shares, bonds, commercial property, and fixed interest investments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00227c2a64b9ae6c4204aa30190a60e771a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c2a64b9ae6c4204aa30190a60e771a0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E First, let me acknowledge Mr Robin Oliver from the Inland Revenue Department. I do not think anyone in the civil service has a tougher job than the man whose responsibility it is to keep his head right across our tax system and to keep up with those who would try to manoeuvre their way through the loopholes that inevitably exist. Mr Oliver and his team do an extraordinary job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI think too that we politicians should recognise the point that we are not experts, obviously, in the technical detail of tax policy and legislation or its impact, and that the expectation of us in the process is really to set the broad principles and the philosophy within which Mr Oliver and his team can work. I feel that that is where we have been letting the tax system down. As I look back over the past few years at the changes that have been made, I feel that, in the main, they have been of a retrograde nature. Our tax system has become more complicated and has moved away from good principles of taxation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI have to say that I always enjoy listening to Mr Copeland\u2019s contributions, because he is a politician who does understand the tax system. Although I was unable to make a full contribution to the Finance and Expenditure Committee this time around, I can tell that Mr Shane Jones has grown in the role of handling legislation such as this and the changes it makes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut let me cover some of the principles. The first one\u2014and we heard this from Jeanette Fitzsimons\u2014is that the tax be broad-based. By that we mean it should cover the entire range of what it is we are taxing, because to the extent that it does not we create an automatic loophole, and to the extent that we have a loophole we create a distortion. It will also mean we have a higher tax rate to raise the same amount of revenue we would otherwise have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBroadly, we have in New Zealand two tax systems. One is a tax on consumption that is called the goods and services tax, which, in a sense, is a good tax\u2014if there is such a thing\u2014because it does not double tax investments. It taxes only consumption. On top of that we have an additional tax system that is a tax on income, which automatically is a double tax on investment, because when we earn a dollar we get taxed, then we get taxed again if we invest it. That is why tax economists favour a consumption tax over an income tax. Then we have a variety of sin taxes for people who smoke, gamble, drink, and do other things that we deem society not to want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db23830278949b8b419f2b383bde526\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Back the horses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e91a8afcc8a24ca79ab9a0469a3aad97\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: And back the horses. So we like the tax system to be broad-based. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe also\u2014and Jeanette Fitzsimons made this point\u2014like the system to be fair. There is always a debate about what is fair. One person\u2019s fairness is another person\u2019s injustice. When I think about fairness, I think that each person in the same circumstance should be taxed the same, obviously, and that those who earn more should pay more tax. I think that is not a bad principle. But I do not think it is fair that as one earns more money one goes into a higher and higher tax bracket. I do not see why a person who earns twice as much as his or her neighbour should pay four or five times the amount of tax. It seems to me that if we are to be fair, a person who earns twice as much should pay twice as much tax. Of course, if we are to do that then we are striving towards a flat tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI listened carefully to Mr Flavell, who said he was concerned about income distribution. That is true, but I make two points. The first is that it may well be that some percentage of the world, of a country, or of Auckland owns a large percentage of the wealth or receives a large amount of income. But how is that achieved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc4e3f0b2bab4e5cb6660f5dfe9d3524\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Hard work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a1c9433fa03483c8890692afe9a34b9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe, but it is not something that just fell out of the sky, necessarily. When we are thinking about redistributing wealth, we should understand that it is not smart to do it through the tax system, actually. Tax is a very, very blunt instrument with which to distribute wealth. Why? The reason is that when we tax hard the people who are on a high income or who have a lot wealth, then those people tend\u2014and I will not use a profanity\u2014to leave the country, or they tend not to invest here. Therefore, the economy is flatter than it would otherwise be. So it is not smart to be taxing people hard; it is actually better to have a tax system that raises the money needed, then provide for those we want to help with direct payments rather than by trying to corkscrew the tax system. By the way, if we try to corkscrew the system, we will not actually get very far, because people do not like being punished through the tax system. When Britain had a tax rate of 98c in the dollar, no rich person paid it. That was the reality. Actually, the income gaps in the UK widened with high taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo I make the point that although we have a concern about helping those on a low income, giving that help through the tax system is not the smartest way. Really, if we want to be fair, we want one tax rate so that people who earn twice as much as other people pay twice as much tax. By the way, GST is a flat tax. It is a flat tax on consumption. If we spend twice as much as other people, we pay twice as much GST. That, again, seems to me to be fair. If we have a flat tax for GST, why not have a flat tax for income? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe also want a system that is easy for the Inland Revenue Department to administer. I say to Mr Copeland that that is what I am worried about. Imagine having a tax system that relates to the \u201Cintent\u201D of a taxpayer. That is actually pretty tough, and I think we are giving a big job to Inland Revenue Department officials and to the courts, because people who truly want to rip off the system will know how to get around the intent clause\u2014by being very careful about it. How can it be that a person\u2019s tax is determined by what he or she intended at the time, and how on earth is an official to know, when looking at a tax return, what the intent of the taxpayer was when he or she made a purchase? People can make up a great cock-and-bull story about why they bought a house and are now selling it, and why they have done it 10 times over a year. At some point one has to accept the story; at some point one does not. It actually becomes an arbitrary system whereby Inland Revenue Department officials and the courts judge what is in a taxpayer\u2019s mind at the time. I do not believe that it is necessarily a good system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBy the way, we also want a tax system that is easy to comply with\u2014but the system has become a whole lot harder. Why? Because we have tried to hit the rich by putting the tax rate up to 39c. We have tried to screw the playing field around to encourage this and discourage that. The tax system has become so much harder in the last few years. If the Government wanted to make it easy, it would make it flat. That would make it easy and fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe also want a tax system to be efficient. By that I mean that the Government has a target of how much money it needs. In the case of the Labour Government, I think its target is way too high, given the surplus. When a Government is designing a tax system, it should be doing it so that it raises the amount of money with the least cost possible. The real costs are not in filling out the paper, in having an Inland Revenue Department to run, and in the court system; those are actually a small part of it. The big cost is the impact on the economy, on jobs, on investment, and on trade. That is the cost of tax. We want a system that raises the targeted amount of revenue for the least cost. As politicians we do not think about that enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI again ask Mr Flavell to think about this. If we have a costly tax system\u2014a system that is making it hard to invest in New Zealand, is discouraging investment, or is discouraging business\u2014then, over time, we will have an economy that is smaller than we otherwise would have. What gives us a costly tax system is, for example, our trying to register our wealth through it. If we try to do that trick, we are not helping the poor, at all. What we are doing is making the whole country poor. That is why I say that the efficiency of the tax system is a key point. We want a low, flat tax rate and a strong economy. To get that, the Government should set the tax rate for the amount of money it wants. It can set it at 10c, 20c, 40c, or 50c. It will have an efficient system for the amount of money it wants to raise, therefore it will have more money, and therefore it will be able to help more poor people and have more Government-run hospitals. If that is what it wants, it can do it. As politicians we have to ask ourselves about the principles and efficiency of the tax system. In terms of the technical side of things, I suggest that in Mr Oliver we are in good capable hands. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5a0c99fc5254c34b776f38033c35343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5a0c99fc5254c34b776f38033c35343\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, like Mr Hide, I would also like to thank Robin Oliver for his great contribution and advice over the years. My past career has not much run into his, although I have talked to him from time to time. But I have certainly been aware of his considerable influence and of the respect in which his advice is held in a number of important quarters in this country. I am not sure that I want to follow Mr Hide in congratulating Mr Jones on his chairmanship of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. That is not because I have any particular reason to doubt the judgment; I attended my first meeting of his committee only 2 working days ago. It is just that Mr Jones may have a significant role to play in the Labour Party\u2019s political future, and whether receiving high praise from the leader of the ACT party is of great benefit to him is something on which I would pass no particular judgment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI have been watching the political progress of this bill with a mixture of bemusement, amusement, and sometimes, I would have to say, amazement. The first question was\u2014and I am really addressing here the question of the differing treatment of overseas investment income\u2014whether there was a problem. Oh, yes, we have known for a long time there were a number of problems\u2014a number of distortions. But the first-order question that would arise, because it really is an implied quantitative question, is about the extent of the problem and whether the problem was of such a dimension that attempting to fix it would not raise larger costs than those resulting from the problem in the first place. The second order, in any logical sequence of thought, would have been to ask about the optimal ways through to address that problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe deluge of submitters against the bill has really meant that this bill\u2014a bill of extraordinary complexity\u2014has undergone the equivalent of genetic modification: political manipulation. It reminds one very much of that clich\u00E9d joke about the camel having been composed or designed by a committee. In some parts, the bill looks as though it bears only a casual resemblance to its original life form, its original structure, and its original ideas. It has been pushed and pulled to assuage this or that submitter, this or that party in support of the bill, this or that opinion, and this or that new fact that emerged in the process of examining the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThat reminds me of something that is often said about ideas that run into trouble. They are said to go through five stages. The first stage is the first-mover stage. Somebody in Mr Cullen\u2019s office\u2014maybe Dr Cullen himself; I do not know whether it was him or an adviser in his private office\u2014or someone from Treasury or the Inland Revenue Department would have drawn attention to this distortion and made the argument that something needed to be done about this problem. Stage two is, of course, growing interest in the proposal. Stage three is that the proposal is the new consensus; everyone around Dr Cullen\u2019s office agrees that now is the time to move to reduce or remove the distortion. Everyone is on board. Technicians, perhaps in the Inland Revenue Department, who are aware of the vast technical complexity actually involved in implementing such a policy recommendation are very wise to stay quiet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI think we are now at stage four of the idea, with one further stage to come. Stage four is the stage when an idea goes a little sour. Growing doubts appear about the wisdom of having embarked on the course of action in the first place. So now that the submitters have come in, we see water is pouring into the ship, and instructions have gone out to put out the political lifeboats and get ready to jettison some of the ballast that is not required. We have the extraordinary vision of Sir Ron Brierley, who has now, through the political process that I am describing, gone beyond the status of being a living legend amongst New Zealand investors to become, effectively, at least for some years to come, a de facto head of State in terms of taxation treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe have not quite got to stage five. Stage five is, of course, the stage where the pernicious unintended effects of legislation like this come fully home to roost. Those who were not involved are rewarded, and those who were involved and were responsible for the idea are punished. Well, fortunately, we have a thing called the democratic process, and the people responsible for that are the New Zealand electorate. I took particular note of the point that Bill English made earlier in this discussion about the Government almost certainly being unaware of the huge numbers of New Zealanders\u2014not just a few rich folk out there\u2014who are affected by this bill, and I am sure Mr English was absolutely right. The Government had quite a shock when it found out the dimension of the problem that it had raised by stirring the swamp up on this particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe bigger picture here, frankly, is the need for serious tax reform rather than fiddling with something that could well have been left alone. We now see that we are in a position in this country where we have the fatal combination of bracket creep, in terms of taxation jargon, and unadjusted taxation rates. This bill, of course, does not want to go anywhere near that issue. We understand that, because we know there is a subsequent stage to come in the process of so-called taxation reform. It will come sometime before the next election, when an adjustment to the brackets is made in order to take account of the fact that in the last 6 years there has been a 50 percent growth in the number of taxpayers who fall into the $38,000 to $60,000 a year income bracket, where they move, because of the discontinuity in the tax break, from paying 19.5 percent of their income to paying 33 percent. So the argument will be made later on, the adjustment will be made, and then the New Zealand public, in a rather larger political debate than even this debate, will have to make up its mind as to whether, in the course of a 3-term Government, that amounts to a credible and continuing commitment to taxation reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe second bigger picture here is the need to do something about this country\u2019s savings position. Like others, I am sure, in this House, I am aware of quite a complicated debate in economic circles\u2014well, at some levels people say there is not necessarily a problem, and others define it in terms of the way that one measures savings flows. That often comes down to a question about whether a dollar invested in housing equity is equal to a dollar invested in a Government surplus is equal to a dollar invested in managed funds, and about the complicated economic effects that arise from those different forms of savings. Although I accept that there are differences of view amongst commentators on that, I do not think there is any serious question that a couple of things in that overall picture are of great importance to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EFirst of all, if we look at the narrower definition of savings in financial assets, we see we do not look very flash. As time goes by, particularly in comparison with Australia, the situation looks increasingly less attractive from our point of view. That is factor No. 1. Factor No. 2, which I do not think there is a great deal of disagreement on, is the dismal picture on investment flows, which are\u2014at the present moment, with our current account deficit being around 9.7 percent of GDP\u2014the second-highest in the developed world, behind Iceland\u2019s. That is a very serious problem for this country. Part of the problem, of course, is the huge imbalance in investment income. That is not an argument to put controls on inward investment. No, no, we should be very thankful that foreigners are prepared to fund a high level of consumption with their own savings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EBut, of course, there is a problem here. In 2005 some $13 billion went out of the country in terms of investment outflows. That represents a return from investment in New Zealand assets. So it is a matter of some importance that we actually implement policy structures that are designed to encourage an outward flow of investment from New Zealand taxpayers, which will actually start to ensure that we have some reverse flows, to balance off that rather dismal picture overall. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EDoes this bill address that issue? Does it provide the greater certainty required for New Zealanders to invest increasingly more of their assets in overseas investments? I think not; I think decidedly not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022938edf30a9224134b161efe343e26d7f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022caf18bb836b04a099a4c45cb9206dbd0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c44d65bafb14c8eab203fe32c9b1901\u0022\u003EPart 1  Annual rates of income tax for 2006-07 tax year\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022302e4a25ddf8445da6e115eaae810540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022302e4a25ddf8445da6e115eaae810540\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of this Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill has actually been largely ignored because of the very controversial issues contained in Part 2, in particular. But Part 1 is a very important part of this bill because it confirms the current income tax rates for the 2006-07 year. There are a number of questions that, I think, should be rightly posed about this to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, because when the current tax rates\u2014including the 39 percent tax rate\u2014were introduced by this Labour Government back in 2002, I clearly remember Dr Cullen speaking in this Parliament and telling New Zealanders that this higher tax rate of 39c in the dollar would be imposed on only 5 percent of New Zealand income earners. It would be only the highest income earners who would be paying this high tax rate. So the question I now have for the Minister in the chair is what percentage of New Zealand income earners, when we confirm these same tax rates\u2014including the 39 percent tax rate above $60,000 income\u2014will be paying that 39 percent marginal tax rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think it is a relevant issue. Dr Cullen promised that only 5 percent of New Zealanders would pay this rate. It is relevant to the Minister in the chair because we all know he is of the view, and has pushed the policy quite strongly, that the tax thresholds should be indexed. Now I have two questions on that matter to the Minister. The first question is when will the tax thresholds be indexed. The second question, in relation to that, is at what point they will be indexed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me explain what I mean. Will they be indexed at a point where only 5 percent of New Zealand income earners pay that top tax rate? In other words, will the threshold be raised until only 5 percent of New Zealand income earners pay the top rate as Dr Cullen promised, or will they be indexed at the status quo where\u2014what is the figure\u201410 percent or 15 percent of New Zealand income earners now pay that top tax rate? So I think there are two issues there that I would be particularly interested in. The first issue is what is the percentage of New Zealand income earners paying that top tax rate. The second issue is when indexation will start and what proportion of New Zealand income earners will lock into that top tax rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere is no question that by confirming these tax rates this Parliament is locking in a very high level of revenue collection\u2014a very high level. Revenue collection by this Labour Government has gone up since it came into office in 1999, I think, something like 60-odd percent\u2014a massive increase in tax collection by this Labour Government. Clearly this Labour Government is currently carrying very large fiscal surpluses. So I think the Minister in the chair should tell us exactly when the indexation of the thresholds will start, and whether it will lock in the status quo where a very much higher number of New Zealanders will be paying that top tax rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E I think New Zealanders deserve to know whether this Government will seriously address the possibility of a reduction in personal income tax rates for New Zealanders. We are becoming a very highly taxed country. The proportion of our GDP being taken as tax is climbing now. It has declined for many years, and it is now climbing again. We all know that that is a negative for our economy. For the percentage of our GDP taken in tax to be climbing again is a negative for economic growth. Given the overall tax policy he is pursuing as Minister of Revenue, I would like to hear as well from the Minister what the prospects are not only for indexing thresholds but of us seeing these actual tax rates that Part 1 confirms are the current arrangements\u201415 percent up to $9,500, 21 percent up to $38,000, 33 percent from $38,000 to $60,000, and 39 percent from $60,000 and above\u2014being reduced. These are very specific questions to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b04d873cee6481a8f9c64497406462c\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue): \u003C/span\u003ELet me respond to the points the member has raised. The first point he asked was what is the percentage of taxpayers now in the 39 percent bracket, bearing in mind the claim in 2000 that only 5 percent of taxpayers would be affected. If he cares to look at Treasury\u2019s estimates that were produced at the time of this year\u2019s Budget, he will see that that figure has now risen to 12 percent. He will note also from the comments made to my right that that has to be taken into account alongside income growth in the period since the year 2000. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe second question that the member raised\u2014and by way of interjection now he makes a reference to bracket creep\u2014was to ask when indexation might occur. Let me say this in response to him. The Budget last year made provision for the start of an indexation programme along the lines that my own party had advocated for. The agreement that we have between the two parties at this stage relates to a business tax review. That work is ongoing and will be completed in time for decisions next year. We have indicated that the consequence of any shift in corporate tax rates or corporate tax arrangements will have implications for the personal tax system, and they will be considered at that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo in response to his question, I would expect decisions on all of these matters to be made in the first half of next year\u2014announcements around the time of next year\u2019s Budget\u2014and legislation to be in the House shortly thereafter to give effect to changes, in time for 1 April 2008. All of that information has been available since the business tax review document was released in July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3867ea23249466a8f8cc657e5781b3c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221de7196595a14ce492e2c7d65e26cf5f\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Income Tax Act 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a811cca68b4d4baf950ccbedda93f529\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney): \u003C/span\u003EPart 2 is obviously the really significant, major part of this bill. I would like to take two or three calls on it at various stages this evening, because I would like to deal with two or three issues. Let me first, though, just revert back to an earlier comment. Do I see Mr Shane Jones anywhere in the Chamber? He talked a moment ago about how sensible this bill and the new regime in Part 2 on taxing foreign portfolio investments are. I want to contrast that with what Mr Jones said publicly, when he thought his comments would not be recorded, in Napier only 2 or 3 weeks ago. That was after the Finance and Expenditure Committee had done most of its work on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat did Shane Jones, the Labour chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, have to say about this taxation regime? He said: \u201CWhy bother investing in shares when you know you\u2019re going to get taxed potentially on gains\u201D\u2014so there was Shane Jones acknowledging there would be a tax on capital gains\u2014\u201Cyou\u2019ve not even received, now called the fair dividend rate \u2026\u201D. So he acknowledged the fair dividend rate would be a tax on capital gains that someone had not even received. He went on to say: \u201C\u2026 when you have all the incentives possible to go out and buy another house as a rental?\u201D. That is what Shane Jones, the Labour chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, really thought about this legislation, when he thought that his audience would not report back to this Parliament what he had said. I think it is very informative that the chair of the select committee actually said that kind of thing in a public gathering in Napier, and did not expect it to get back to this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe first issue that I want to focus on in Part 2 is the establishment of the portfolio investment entities. In principle, we have no problem with that proposal. We support the concept of establishing for managed funds the principle that they should not be taxed on their capital gains here in New Zealand, on investments in New Zealand. I think it was Gordon Copeland who emphasised that point; having their taxation arrangements the same as those on individuals\u2019 investments in New Zealand makes perfectly fine sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut the issue becomes more complex when we introduce the look-through procedures, as Part 2 does, to try to tax individuals\u2019 investments in managed funds at their personal marginal rate. What makes it more complex is that the returns to investors are not being taxed in the investors\u2019 hands at their marginal rate. That would be a much more simple process. The problem for Labour members was that if they approached it in that simple way, that would affect the Government\u2019s family tax credit arrangements, particularly its big icon policy of Working for Families. Obviously, if it were to be done in that sensible way\u2014the investment return is received in the hands of the investor, to be taxed at his or her marginal rate\u2014of course it could make a significant difference to the amount of income that a family received through Working for Families. So what the Government decided it had to do, and what this Part 2 does, is to force the new portfolio investment entity established in Part 2 to calculate the tax and pay it on behalf of the individual investor, so that it does not count against the individual investor\u2019s entitlements to family tax credits and Working for Families tax credits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut that introduces massive complexities. I want the Minister in the chair, Peter Dunne, to answer quite an important question on this. The select committee heard from a group of very significant researchers at Auckland University. I thought Michael Littlewood and Susan St John made an important submission to the select committee on this issue. They made the point that it is simple to say we should tax the returns at an individual\u2019s own rate in a managed fund investment, but giving effect to that is anything other than simple. They say that if we take a modern superannuation scheme with an investment choice\u2014one where investors have some choice\u2014in order for a big scheme with 100,000 members to become portfolio investment entity - compliant, it would involve up to 15 billion extra data points. I will repeat that figure. The evidence to the select committee was that for a major fund to become portfolio investment entity - compliant, calculating out the tax on the basis of an individual investor\u2019s individual tax rate would involve up to 15 billion extra data points of information that would have to be kept by that superannuation scheme. That is a massive increase in extra data handling by a managed fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat was not put to us by some person off on a wild daydream; the people who made that submission to the select committee were Michael Littlewood and Susan St John, who are two very respected researchers in this area. They put it to the committee that this measure would impose a huge compliance cost, and that many employer superannuation schemes simply would not be able to become portfolio investment entity - compliant because they would not be able to pass on those costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMaybe the Government today, with its latest Supplementary Order Paper enabling superannuation schemes to be exempt from specified superannuation contribution withholding tax without becoming portfolio investment entity - compliant, will solve this compliance problem for many superannuation schemes. Maybe that last-minute move could help with this issue. But I would like the Minister in the chair, Peter Dunne, to respond to the very serious submission made by those researchers. I ask whether the Government has looked seriously at the issue of the massive increase in the number of data points of information required by a significantly sized superannuation scheme in order to become portfolio investment entity - compliant. Where that fund is an employer superannuation scheme, obviously it cannot pass on those costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo I think that there are significant issues around the design of this proposal to tax individuals\u2019 investment in managed funds at their own marginal tax rates. It is complex, because the returns from the investment are not being taxed in the individuals\u2019 hands; the tax is being calculated by the fund\u2014by the portfolio investment entity\u2014which adds significant complexity. For example, given that the portfolio investment entity pays the tax on behalf of the investor, what happens when the investor pulls out? There are a number of overs and unders here. If the investor pulls out of the portfolio investment entity, presumably that entity has to pay the tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI would appreciate the Minister in the chair telling members how often the portfolio investment entity recalculates investor ownership of investment in the fund, to make sure that the averaging throughout the year delivers an average tax rate, because we must not forget that the tax rate that the portfolio investment entity pays is the average of the individual tax rates of all the investors in that fund. In order to get that exactly right, the portfolio investment entity would have to attribute income on a daily basis. Does the Government intend that portfolio investment entities should attribute income on a daily basis, a quarterly basis, or a 6-monthly basis? I think that the Minister should explain that to the Committee, because I am sure that many members would not have much of a grip on that issue. It does affect the fairness of the tax rate paid because, depending on the balance of investors on a daily basis in a particular portfolio investment entity fund, it influences the average tax rate owed on the income received by the fund on any given day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo I really would appreciate the Minister responding to a number of significant issues in relation to the establishment of portfolio investment entities. Later on I will come to a number of other issues relating to the investment of income in offshore portfolio investments. However, with regard to the portfolio investment entity issue, we support the concept of taxing people\u2019s investments in managed funds at their own marginal rate. But because the Government does not want to affect their Working for Families income, it means that portfolio investment entities have to do all the tax calculations and pay the tax on behalf of investors, and that causes huge complexity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI would appreciate it if the Minister could respond to those specific concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00220f999d55b2da4bc3ad4de279c7db898a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f999d55b2da4bc3ad4de279c7db898a\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a call on the 5 percent fair dividend rate, which is contained in Part 2 of this bill. I think I have earned the right to speak on this, because I listened to many, many hours\u2019 worth of submissions on the fair dividend rate, and I must say that some of them were a mixture of ignorance, wisdom, and everything in between. I think that it is very important to at last put a few facts on the table with regard to the process that has led to the 5 percent rate and, if you like, its \u201Cembeddedness\u201D into the reality of what it means to invest in the stock exchange. When we buy shares in a company, we become a part-proprietor of that company. We may be only one-millionth proprietor, because there might be almost a million other shareholders, but we, nevertheless, are proprietors of that company. After that company has earned an income and has paid its due tax on that income\u2014in whatever jurisdiction in whatever country in the world it belongs to\u2014the after-tax income belongs to the shareholders of that company. Therefore, as investors, we have a share of that income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWhat this bill attempts to do is to say that the Government will tax us a fair amount and a fair rate, based on the fact that we have just gained an income. After all, this is an income tax bill. The evidence placed before the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which is very well known, was that over time if we invest on the international stock exchange around the world\u2014and we could look at various periods, but if we take the period from about the 1980s through to today, which is about 26 years\u2014on average, the income yield, or the return yield, to an investor is 9 percent. This bill says that the Government will tax investors on 5 percent out of that 9 percent. Why not the whole 9 percent? The reason is that some part of that 9 percent, in addition to the income that investors receive from the company, is the market\u2019s evaluation of the future income stream of the company, which we call capital gains. It is an estimate of what the ongoing earnings might be, capitalised today. The whole theoretical basis underlying that is called the internal rate of return, or the net present value, of future income streams, which comes into today\u2019s valuation on the stock exchange of those particular shares. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThis bill does not, in any shape or form, tax genuine capital gains from the stock exchange. It is a tax on, if you like, a fair dividend yield\u2014and I will put this fairly and squarely on the record: if a company earns an income after tax, regardless of whether it distributes that income by way of dividends or retains it, the investors, as shareholders, have still gained an income from that company. That is the essential point of the fair dividend rate method. We are saying that if people are shareholders, they have earned some income and, because we have an income tax system on every other form of income in New Zealand\u2014whether the income is gained here or from overseas\u2014those people need to pay their fair whack of tax on that income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI have mentioned that the average return is 9 percent and that we are taxing at a rate of 5 percent. Is there anything magic about that? The answer is no, but the rate is about right. It is as right as any other rate that anybody who came before the select committee could otherwise argue for. Some people who came before the select committee\u2014many people, actually\u2014said that investors should pay tax only on the actual dividend they receive. That is pure nonsense, and anybody who has ever had any dealings at all or who has ever invested in the stock exchange knows that that is nonsense. I, for one, was very disappointed to sit there and hear members of my own profession come along and make that ridiculous argument. As I said before, it does not matter whether one receives a dividend; one receives an income. And if a shareholder does not receive an income, everybody knows that the value of that person\u2019s shares on the stock exchange goes up. Immediately, when a company declares its profit, the value normally goes up. It comes down, of course, if the company declares a loss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d46249e2a564449a6fdcb27b616c9af\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a capital gain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b97e81cc31184ba8a69b069c39e4efea\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a capital gains tax; that is a share of income earned. I have just explained the difference between the two things. I will take another call if the member does not understand the difference, and I will explain it again. One gains a share of an income when one buys a share in a company. One becomes a proprietor of that company. We are attempting to put an income tax on a fair share of that income. I would say that the 5 percent is actually rather conservative when we take that reality into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u002289254746b16143359efcadfd12050952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289254746b16143359efcadfd12050952\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a brief call on Part 2. I will focus on a couple of aspects of interest to us in the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EFirst of all, the key point, I think, is the one made by my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith. The changes to portfolio investment entity compliance are something that, in principle, we welcome, but Dr Smith has asked a number of, admittedly, highly technical questions that are extremely important in terms of whether we can realise, through the policy implementation, the reasons for our moving in this direction in the first place. We look forward to the Minister of Revenue responding to Dr Smith\u2019s invitation for him to take the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe key point from our perspective is that these positive changes to portfolio investment entities could have been introduced with the Government staying away from the whole issue of the \u201Cgrey list\u201D. The Government lurched away from its initial proposal, a crude but unrealised capital gains tax, as submitters poured into the Finance and Expenditure Committee with their problems with this issue. Thank goodness the Government moved away from its initial proposal\u2014we should be thankful for small mercies\u2014but although the fix of the fair dividend rate that we have before us is certainly superior to the original proposal, we can see all manner of unintended consequences that will have to be addressed in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWe know what some of these consequences will be, as the submitters have already drawn attention to some of the major policy issues that we will have to confront as this bill is implemented. There are issues to do with the huge portions of our workforce that are employed by multinationals, and the fact they are locked into employee stock ownership options, often for a number of years. These employees will not be in a position, unless they want to leave the company, to get out of the company and pay the tax bill. This is one of many problems that submitters have identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThen there is the question about currency shift. This is, at one level, just a question of equity, but, at another level, there will be some long-term effects from the way that the Government has approached this. If we are taxed on foreign investment earned, obviously, by definition, we need to convert our earnings into New Zealand dollars to arrive at the assessable income required. This will involve an exchange rate, and if the currency has fallen, the assessable income will rise. Is that fair? And what are the economic implications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThis raises\u2014in my mind, at least\u2014some quite interesting questions about how we actually address tax policies and residency policies in the era of globalisation. This is something that we have had to look at in almost all aspects of policy making, whether we are talking about trade or employment, because we are operating in this country, for all intents and purposes, with global competition for skilled and semi-skilled labour. It is also necessary to look at the implications of this in terms of the legislation before the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo many of our policy models, including tax models, are based on the dominant model. That model is that, let us say, Mr John Smith and Ms Mary Smith live their lives in New Zealand, earn their incomes in New Zealand, travel to Fiji for their holidays\u2014when it is not having a coup\u2014and are New Zealanders in every sense. That is still by far the dominant policy model to which our policy structures have to accommodate. But it is being eaten away at the edges by a number of other issues that people have to have uppermost in their minds if New Zealand is going to survive and really place itself well in the forefront of small, developed countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ELet me convert the John Smith analogy to Mr and Mrs Chen Wang. I am sure that the Minister, being an aficionado of Taiwan, knows that that is a common family name in Taiwan. Or I could use a Korean example, Dr Che, who is living amongst the, I think, 30,000 Korean families that we talked to the Korean President about on Sunday during Mr Key\u2019s courtesy call on him. How would those people sitting in Auckland react? Perhaps a large number of them still have very substantial assets deriving from their opportunities in Pusan or Seoul. Those assets will be converted into New Zealand dollar terms when the currency falls. Do members think that when the implications of this come home to roost, those people will lift their glasses of soju and thank the Labour-led Government? I doubt it very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9a306766121478ebcbec439ac29f5b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9a306766121478ebcbec439ac29f5b3\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E If anybody except the dedicated financial investor is still listening, I will be surprised, but if they are, I suggest to them that they are now understanding the complexity of the issues that this bill addresses, and they are starting to see the issues that we had to deal with and the sorts of things that happen in the investment world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EFollowing on from Mr Copeland, I think that if people in other countries, for whatever reason, will pay out dividends, incorporate that into capital, and pay out on what they call the capital account, then it is totally acceptable for us to work towards some sort of regime that will, in part, capture a fair amount of that. That is what is called the fair dividend rate, that is what is encompassed in Part 2, and that is what we are doing. All over the world there are different tax regimes. People talk about our wonderful neighbour Australia, which taxes the heck out of people who invest in overseas countries\u2014to a far, far greater degree than we do here in New Zealand\u2014yet I hear it lauded as a wonderful bastion of free enterprise, go-go business, and all of the rest of it. It is absolutely acceptable that something like this is done, because of the situation this bill faces as far as the investment areas are concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ETo have a fair dividend rate of 5 percent is absolutely fair. All of these things are a compromise, and I think it is as good as we will get into the foreseeable future. Likewise, with the portfolio investment entities, it is no secret that some of us would have liked to have seen some newer, more innovative players come into the market in this area. I know that the Minister Peter Dunne\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper is trying to address some of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EBut it is no surprise, because of the things that Dr Lockwood Smith has mentioned, that those who have become default providers in the first instance in this area are, in the main, some of New Zealand\u2019s biggest investment companies. They are the ones with the computer horsepower, and all of the sorts of things that enable them to look after the individual mum and dad investors who\u2014what shall I say without being mean to them\u2014do not have the expertise to look after their own taxation, or the time, I might add, to go through all of the calculations that that entails. The portfolio investment entity will do it for them. It is right that that happens. There is no hidden agenda here. Most New Zealanders will be thankful that those companies actually have the computer horsepower, and those sorts of things, to do all of these calculations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EPeople are talking about the hidden misdeeds of this Government, and saying that it is heading in directions that may be secretive, and that it has other agendas. The Government is simply understanding and accepting that people who invest through a managed fund will not, by and large, run off to the accountant to do all of these things themselves. These people are not, with due respect, sophisticated investors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EPart 2 takes care of a lot of these things. I think the fair dividend rate is the proper way to go. Although it is a compromise, it is something that will do the job admirably. In respect of the portfolio investment entities, although we would like to have seen some more innovative companies involved, it is no surprise that they have ended up being the bigger companies in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00229ada0b1c6b334727aea4f06b397ed873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ada0b1c6b334727aea4f06b397ed873\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Having raised a few issues, just a moment ago, over the establishment of the portfolio investment entities, I will now raise some issues around the shrinking of the \u201Cgrey list\u201D and the establishment of the 5 percent fair-dividend rate. I cannot help but note that Gordon Copeland from United Future, in speaking a moment ago, said it is foolish to argue that this 5 percent fair-dividend rate new tax is in any way a tax on capital gains. Of course the Ministers, in writing to the Finance and Expenditure Committee when the Government did the big U-turn on the original 85 percent capital gains tax, said to the select committee that this fair-dividend rate was a method \u201Cwhich would also not target capital gains, but rather something approximating a reasonable dividend yield.\u201D The Ministers even said they did not want it to be a capital gains tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI put this example to Gordon Copeland. One has $100,000 in a portfolio investment offshore\u2014less than 10 percent shareholding in any company. If in New Zealand one has a zero dividend payout for the year, and, let us say, the investments are mainly in America, the UK, Canada, or whatever\u2014they have to be in \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries\u2014and the exchange rate between New Zealand and those countries was to decline by 10 percent, then those investments in New Zealand dollar terms have gone up for the year. One has had no income from them, yet, under this 5 percent fair-dividend new taxation that the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill would bring in, one would be taxed on those\u2014even though one has had no income. All that has happened is that the capital value in New Zealand dollars of those investments has gone up, because the New Zealand currency has declined against those foreign currencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo the capital value of that investment in New Zealand dollar terms has gone up. One has had no dividend, and the value of one\u2019s investments in the currencies of investment has not gone up. But the New Zealand dollar value has gone up. That can be nothing other than an apparent capital gains tax, because in New Zealand dollars one has had an apparent increase in the New Zealand dollar value of the capital of one\u2019s investment, and one is going to be taxed on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI say to Gordon Copeland that this tax does tax capital gains. I would appreciate hearing the Minister\u2019s comment on that\u2014whether the Government has really thought through that issue and it is happy that New Zealanders will face taxation when the currency goes down. When the currency goes up, of course, they are not necessarily in a better position, because, although they may not owe tax, or may owe less tax when the currency goes up, they do not recover the tax they have paid when the currency goes down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAlso, I point out to Gordon Copeland, the weighted international average dividend yield at the moment is 2.2 percent\u2014the committee heard that repeatedly from experienced international fund managers. Those fund managers said the weighted average dividend yield internationally is currently 2.2 percent. That means if one is assuming a 5 percent return for managed funds here in New Zealand, one is taxing way beyond the dividend yield. I do not care what fancy way Mr Copeland wants to define \u201Cincome\u201D. Income is only what one receives. Income is always defined by what one receives. That is why we refer to things as capital gains; they are gains because they are not income. They are only income when the capital is realised. If one is in a trading position, then one is taxed on that realised capital here in New Zealand\u2014as Mr Copeland pointed out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI come back to the point that with this 5 percent fair-dividend rate\u2014which is supposedly fair, and which National is seriously opposed to\u2014because of a number of these issues, such as currency shifts, one faces a tax bill. If one\u2019s investment goes down in value this year, returns to the same value next year, and no dividend is paid, then one is taxed on the return to the same value as one started at. I would appreciate the Minister telling me whether I am wrong there, but I believe I am right. Over a 2-year period, if the value of one\u2019s investment offshore goes down this year one is not taxed\u2014I accept that. But if it returns to the start value next year, one is, in terms of wealth, no better off, because one is only back to where one started, yet one faces a tax bill and has had no income. The investor is only back to what the investment was valued at last year\u2014and Mr Copeland is saying that that is income. He is saying that this new tax is taxing only income. I put it to you, Mr Chairman, that it is not credible to make that argument. I would appreciate the Minister\u2019s comment on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo National is very opposed to this new 5 percent fair-dividend rate tax. It is a new tax that does have an element of capital gains in it, and it is unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022df0c9bd95eb847cfa2ca7adf55fb6310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df0c9bd95eb847cfa2ca7adf55fb6310\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I will not get an opportunity to speak on the third reading of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, so I will take another brief call to reinforce that the Minister the Hon Peter Dunne has actually got it right when the Government has chosen to tax income on international share investments at a rate of 5 percent. Just following on from the remarks I made earlier, let us take a real-life illustration of the principle at work here. It is well known that for many, many years Microsoft paid no dividends\u2014no dividends whatever. It would be patently absurd to argue, however, that the shareholders in Microsoft were not getting an income, because each and every year Microsoft declared massive earnings after tax. The whole reason that its price zoomed up many, many percentages every year on the stock exchange was the income the company was producing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAnd that illustrates the point. Where one has zero dividend in spite of the fact that one has a huge income, then quite obviously the amount of dividend distributed has actually no meaning whatever, in terms of what is the right amount of income to tax. That is why the average dividend yield internationally is 2.2 percent. Some companies do not actually pay dividends. Unilever in Britain is another example of a company that does not pay dividends. The tax systems there do not encourage companies to pay dividends, so they simply capitalise that income and move on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe other point Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith raised was in relation to foreign exchange movements. Well, that is a different transaction. A profit on a foreign exchange movement is also a profit and is taxable in New Zealand dollar terms. If one has a loss on foreign exchange because of that, then obviously that loss also offsets one\u2019s tax here in New Zealand, because, simply speaking, one pays tax in New Zealand on New Zealand dollars. But there are two elements happening. One is the income one gets from the company, which will be taxed at 5 percent. The other thing is the loss or gain one makes on the currency movements that have occurred between New Zealand and whatever country one has invested in during that period of time. They are two quite separate things, and we should not confuse them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00220f43da62eb33401784b079b04a3bf046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f43da62eb33401784b079b04a3bf046\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I thank firstly my colleague Gordon Copeland, and, also, Doug Woolerton, for their comments on Part 2 and the contributions they have made. I also say to Dr Smith that I am going to attempt to respond to a number of the points he raised. I go back to the first point he raised concerning the portfolio investment entity rules as they affect superannuation funds. He will be aware that the Finance and Expenditure Committee has made a number of changes in that area. For example, there is now a simplified method of allocation available for entities such as superannuation funds to allow them the benefits of being a portfolio investment entity with few compliance costs. That method will require the fund to continue to pay provisional tax. The fund will be required to calculate the portfolio investment entity tax accurately on behalf of its members at the end of each year, rather than on a quarterly basis, and would make an annual investor interest adjustment within 3 months of the end of the tax year in order to ensure that 19.5 percent taxpayers receive an additional entitlement to reflect their lower tax rate. The fund will also be liable for the tax on the share of the current year\u2019s income that is paid out to investors that exit the fund during the year. The select committee has recommended some other changes as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E I should just say to Dr Smith that the complexity issue has been substantially modified, and the proposals that the bill now contains are largely supported by the industry as being a vast improvement on what was in the bill in the first instance. The claim that was made based on the St John and Littlewood evidence has been substantially addressed in the amendments recommended by the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI turn to the question that Mr Groser raised regarding share ownership schemes, which has been acknowledged as a problem. Again, the Finance and Expenditure Committee has made some amendments that seek to address that issue; for instance, no tax will now be payable for the period when an employee is unable to sell out of the ownership scheme. So some improvements have been made there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI will talk on a point that both Dr Smith and Mr Groser also made about unrealised gains, currency shifts, and all of the impacts that they might have on the value of an individual investment. The key point to make here is what the key difference is between the respective arguments in this whole bill. The bill says that the fair dividend rate is deemed to be 5 percent or the actual value of the dividend paid in years where a profit accrues\u2014in other words, where a gain takes place. Where a loss occurs, no tax is payable. The position taken by the National Party has been a 3 percent flat rate, payable in years when there is a gain but also payable in years when there is a loss. So the difference is essentially between 5 percent, which will actually average out at around 3.4 percent over a period of time, versus a situation that says it is 3 percent regardless of whether the value of one\u2019s investment has increased or decreased. That is the essential difference between the two broad positions on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe members say it is complicated. Frankly, I think there is an issue of fairness here. Taxpayers will feel that it is reasonable to pay a tax in years when they have something positive to show for it. They will resent the idea of being taxed in years when there is a loss, and that is the nature of the debate that has taken place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe one other issue is the debate that has been ongoing about whether this is a capital gains tax. The whole notion of the changes that the Minister of Finance and I recommended to the select committee was around dividend yield, and to get away from the notion that was implied in the original proposal\u2014the 5 percent of the 85 percent, and all of that\u2014of that being a capital gains tax. We wanted to make it absolutely clear that that was not our intention; we were seeking to get a reasonable tax payable on an investment. That is why we called it as such\u2014the notion of a fair dividend rate became available. I note that again the difference between the parties is not great: a deemed rate of return on the one hand versus a fair dividend rate on the other, 3 percent flat on the one hand versus 5 percent\u2014or zero in loss years\u2014on the other. It is a very small point of difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EHaving heard a lot of the arguments\u2014and I am sure the member will appreciate my saying this\u2014having received several thousand letters and countless delegations, and having talked to lots of meetings up and down the country, we believe that the mechanisms contained in this part of the bill are a step forward. These things will always be difficult to some degree or other, but we sought to try to address the major issues, and come up with a regime that is fair and equitable and that recognises a couple of key points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe member touched earlier on the question of the \u201Cgrey list\u201D. I thought I referred in my second reading speech to one of the anomalies, which is that the emerging economies of Singapore, China, and India are not on the \u201Cgrey list\u201D, so we immediately have a disadvantage for investment that goes into those economies as opposed to those on the \u201Cgrey list\u201D. We have been trying to create a regime where it is attractive for New Zealanders to invest offshore. We recognise that most people invest through their own efforts, and most of that investment goes into Australasia. Around 70 percent of investment from New Zealand goes into Australasia, around 15 percent into the \u201Cgrey list\u201D, and around 15 percent into non - \u201Cgrey list\u201D countries. Part of the emphasis on Australasia was simply a recognition of what is the status quo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe have attempted, therefore, with the remaining 30 percent, to draw rules that are clear and unambiguous and that are essentially fair and do not discourage people. That is the real point in essence here, but I come back to the point that I began on. The essential difference between the two sides in this arguments is 5 percent for the funds and a floating rate, if you like, for individual investment, versus a flat 3 percent, win or lose. I think it is a very small point of difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cd0a0ba06dbf428b8851f9d3900f838e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287995b79a64b4440b52ac4f42639a670\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Tax Administration Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c5f4115c2124e059197aad98804f6a9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d6b5af5abe4409db5cfdab4aa8b661c\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to other Acts and regulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000612\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000613\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000614\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ff85afd81774177a9c8f6193af9c5d7\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b9b42bd96a02446bb2a66c3ddf0aee0c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4d1393442cf441fa4dc2910ecad68d6\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022392995622f244122b350814858da4f27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000617\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b46a3bbf9ed0433cbe24cb1d8b707308\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002277aeabe142984aabba584b1fc7ee23da\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000618\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Taxation (Savings Investment and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, and the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2006-07) Bill pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 85.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000619\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000620\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fc14dedec994d2d8210d735845d1fca\u0022\u003ETaxation (Savings Investment and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fc14dedec994d2d8210d735845d1fca\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2006-07) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220dcda141e73942d991d4d61564d09d25\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3895e5ad8504eb2a7a8e0143994134f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3895e5ad8504eb2a7a8e0143994134f\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Savings Investment and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2006-07) Bill be now read a third time. I begin by acknowledging the contribution made by the members who took part in the Committee stage debate, and also that made by the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, who have worked so hard on this legislation over the last few months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI also join with other members who during the earlier debates expressed their congratulations to, and admiration for the work of, Robin Oliver and the team at the policy advice division of the Inland Revenue Department. This year has been one of the busiest years on record in terms of tax policy, and I know better than most the stresses and strains that Robin and his team have been put under. I simply want to put on record this evening my appreciation for the admirable work they have done, and I am sure that most members of the House would join me in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThese bills complete a long process of reform that had its genesis way back in the 1980s. Reference was made earlier to Sir Roger Douglas attempting in the 1980s to do what these bills do, and being unable to complete the exercise. The National Government in the 1990s attempted something similar\u2014and I seem to recall being Minister of Revenue at that stage, as well\u2014but was unable to complete the exercise. Finally tonight we complete the exercise of getting a fairer and more comprehensive regime for the taxation of both managed funds and offshore investments by individuals. This debate has been a long and arduous one at times. The proposals we originally released caused a great deal of controversy and a huge number of submissions. The select committee managed to work its way through them and it accepted some proposed amendments, and I think a pretty good regime is about to be put in place this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on a couple of points made at earlier stages of the debate that I did not have a chance to respond to. Reference was made earlier on to the Government\u2019s commitment to the generic tax policy process, and I want to reassure the House that the generic tax policy process remains one of the jewels in our policy formation crown. This Government and this Minister have absolutely no intention of tampering with that. In fact, it is worth noting that across a range of tax policy issues\u2014and we have not finished yet; we have more to come tomorrow\u2014around eight discussion papers, as part of that process, have been released on various topics this year alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt is also worth noting that the Taxation (Savings Investment and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which gives effect to the offshore investment regime, had its genesis in some work done by Mr Craig Stobo a couple of years ago. A discussion paper was issued in 2005, and it attracted, from memory, around 800 submissions. Dr Cullen and I released proposals for change earlier this year. They then became the original bill, which attracted several thousand submissions. We have now modified those proposals, with the help of the select committee, the select committee has gone through a further round of consultation, and the legislation now stands on the verge of being passed into law this evening. So I say that the process of consultation has been honoured absolutely. There has been more discussion on this measure than on any other measure that I can recall in the last 20 years in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EEssentially, at the end of it, the differences between the parties come down to some relatively minor points. The position that the bill advances is that we will have a fair dividend regime, under which managed funds will be taxed at 5 percent, and, for individual offshore investors, the tax will be 5 percent of the opening value, unless they can demonstrate that their actual rate of return has been less than that. The position advanced by the Opposition\u2014by National in its minority report and during the debate this evening\u2014was that the 5 percent rate was too high. It wanted a flat rate of 3 percent\u2014for, I think, the funds, but certainly for individuals. But the difference is that whereas under the proposals in the bill no tax is payable in years that individuals incur losses, under the proposal advanced by the Opposition they would pay the flat 3 percent rate regardless of whether they had losses or gains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E So I say that if, at the end of this process, we have a difference of that minimal nature, what we also have is broad acceptance around the House that it is correct that the concept of a fair dividend yield be the basis on which we tax these investments, that the process we have gone through to arrive at that has produced a law that in the circumstances is sufficiently robust to stand the test of time, and that we have completed an exercise that successive Governments over the last 20-odd years have embarked upon but failed to complete over. I think that, all round, in the circumstances that is a pretty satisfactory outcome, and I simply congratulate all of those who have been involved\u2014be they submitters, technical advisers, members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, officials, or members of the House who have taken an interest\u2014and have had a hand in bringing the legislation to this point this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6267a6df8ff416196fe871d56d22321\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6267a6df8ff416196fe871d56d22321\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Revenue for his response to the questions I posed during the Committee on this legislation. I appreciated that. But what he has just put to Parliament now I do not accept, and neither does National. He has just put to Parliament that there is not a lot of difference between these positions\u2014that the 5 percent fair dividend rate is more fair because people will not pay tax in a year they do not make a 5 percent return. That is not what the officials told us. The officials told the Finance and Expenditure Committee that this legislation is so complex that people will pay the 5 percent because the cost of working out a lower possible rate for so many people is just too great. That is what officials told us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf members look at the National Party\u2019s minority view in the commentary on the legislation, they will see that it is not National saying that it supports a lower rate. We point out in our minority report that most submitters argued that a lower deemed rate of return would be a more appropriate policy, because it would remove any element of capital gains tax. So it is not National saying that; it is what most submitters put to us. I want to make that very clear to the Minister. Submission after submission to the select committee argued against the 5 percent fair dividend rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI focus on this, because it is the most controversial part of this legislation. The shrinking of the \u201Cgrey list\u201D and the Government proposing, initially, to impose a capital gains tax on 85 percent of gains, then doing a U-turn and proposing this 5 percent fair dividend rate, has been the most controversial part of this legislation. The people making the submissions\u2014people like John Shewan\u2014did not say that a 5 percent fair dividend rate was the best way to go, at all. People like John Shewan argued for a flat lower deemed rate on everything, because then one could make funds and individuals the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOne of the goals the Government set out to achieve with this legislation was to treat managed funds and individuals\u2019 portfolio investments offshore the same. And we accept the Minister\u2019s explanation of the benefits that he gave during the Committee. We accept the logic of getting the \u201CBRICK\u201D countries\u2014Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Korea\u2014into a more sensible tax regime. But to have gone for this complicated 5 percent fair dividend rate makes no sense. I can tell the Minister that his colleagues on the select committee were at times tearing at their hair, asking why on earth we were going through this. I have already read to Parliament what Shane Jones really believes, when he said at a meeting in Napier: \u201CWhy bother investing in shares when you know you\u2019re going to get taxed, potentially on gains you\u2019ve not even received\u201D\u2014now called the fair dividend rate\u2014\u201Cwhen you have all the tax incentives possible to go out and buy another house as a rental.\u201D That is what the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Shane Jones, is saying about the Government\u2019s own legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI say to Peter Dunne the Minister of Revenue that I do not accept the argument he put forward just now. I believe, having listened to the submissions carefully at the select committee\u2014and the select committee did put a lot of work into this, questioning the officials closely at the select committee\u2014that this is a revenue issue. Many of the Labour members could see the benefit of going for the Shewan model of a lower flat deemed rate where it was simple across the board\u2014treat funds and individuals the same, no de minimis, no exemptions, just a flat low rate. Everyone could see the benefits of that. But the officials explained to us that it would give away more revenue\u2014and we all know that Dr Michael Cullen, the Treasurer, is allergic to giving away revenue. We all know that, and sadly we end up with this complex 5 percent fair dividend rate that no one likes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI will acknowledge that people do say that it is not as bad as the complicated 85 percent capital gains proposal that Labour initially put up. It is not as bad as that; but it is still not good tax law. Most people will find it so complex they will not comply with it, and that means those taxpayers of goodwill, the honest taxpayers, will simply pay a 5 percent flat tax rate. As one of the senior officials\u2014I will not say which one\u2014said to us, he would probably simply pay the 5 percent flat tax rate to avoid the costs of having to calculate what the actual rate of return on his portfolio was, because it is complicated. Taxpayers would have to get a lot of information to calculate the actual rate of return on their investments offshore. So many taxpayers will pay the 5 percent rate as if it were a flat rate, and others will simply ignore the tax law and not comply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is unfortunate, because the Government had the opportunity to get bipartisan agreement on a lower, simpler flat deemed rate that treated funds and individuals exactly the same, with no exemptions\u2014a very simple system that everyone could have complied with. No one would have objected to it. I point out to the Minister of Revenue the example of Telecom shareholders this year. They will pay tax on their dividends, even though if they were investing in one of these offshore countries, they would not, because the capital value of their Telecom shares has come down so much. Even though they get a dividend return, their total value will have gone down. So under this tax proposal they would not pay a tax. But in New Zealand everyone accepts that we pay tax on our income. So if we get a dividend stream, we pay tax on it. That is why more people would have accepted the fairness of a low deemed rate based, essentially, on the weighted average international dividend yield. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI put to the House the fact that the reason we do not have it is that Dr Michael Cullen would not allow it. That is why Labour is proposing this legislation, because it brings in this complex, unworkable tax that is unfair, when in fact we had the opportunity to bring in a sensible tax that reformed the taxation of offshore portfolio investment sensibly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ECan I also add my thanks to the work of the officials. I have worked with Robin Oliver for many years, as a Minister in the previous Government as well as in recent years as Opposition spokesperson on revenue. I just marvel at the workload that guy and his team can carry. I feel sorry for them that they have to come up with legislative proposals to match this Labour Government\u2019s dopey tax proposals, but they do it very well, given the foolish tax constraints that this Labour Government imposes on them. Sadly, the officials have done good work but I think this is Mickey Mouse legislation, because of the constraints that Dr Michael Cullen imposed on them. We could have had the kind of legislation that John Shewan was arguing should have been adopted. It would have been accepted far more widely across the investment industry. It would have got rid of so many of the differences between the taxation of funds and individuals. It would have been so much simpler and so much better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is sad that we have not got that, and National therefore opposes the bill. I do not often agree with Jeanette Fitzsimons. She called the bill a dog\u2019s breakfast; it is. This is one of the few times I have ever agreed with the co-leader of the Green Party. But that is why National is opposing this legislation, because it is not good legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228f9d4eee16ec48e49571064e9fcb487c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Savings Investment and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and the Taxation (Annual Rates of Income Tax 2006-07) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; M\u0101ori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000641\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m.(Wednesday)\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2006121290f0b16a3a4a40e7854431f405f8b1ed000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bce92784c78f4f649dc85c32c6d90147\u0022\u003ETuesday, 12 December 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205f2345f356247c187f79cef9e36cd2f\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 13 December 2006)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adf09fa075824eca8ff5899177a0ad2e\u0022\u003ETelecommunications Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022568459c94d6a46ecb2a42c5523b0e870\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3e4bcbd20eb4766b9fa079ce62fc8f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3e4bcbd20eb4766b9fa079ce62fc8f1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Communications):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Telecommunications Amendment Bill be now read a second time. In speaking to the second reading of this bill let me first thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which has worked hard to report this bill back to the House within a timely fashion while ensuring that full consideration was given to the public submissions received. The committee also gave careful consideration to structural and operational separation issues as requested, and this matter has been dealt with in this bill. May I acknowledge, perhaps unusually but with genuine appreciation, the constructive roles of all parties, including the National Opposition, in considering this bill. In my view the select committee benefited not only from able chairing and good inter-party dialogue, but also from the presence around the committee table of not one but two former Ministers of Communication, the Hon Paul Swain and the Hon Maurice Williamson, who had, no doubt, heard it all before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill marks a new era in telecommunications in New Zealand. History is being made today. What some people said could not be done is being done. What some people said would not work is being given the opportunity to work, and the signs are already strongly indicating that it will work well. This is a landmark bill because we are equipping New Zealand for a new age\u2014a digital age; an age where the smart use of technology will determine our continued prosperity as a country and make economic transformation a reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EWe are making this history today with a clear, firm mandate from the people of New Zealand, and I hope from this Parliament. The measures in this bill are a critical part of the Government\u2019s economic transformation programme signalled principally in the telecommunications stocktake announced in May 2006, but also incorporating the outcome of the earlier 2004-05 implementation review of the Telecommunications Act. It is widely agreed that advanced broadband services are key to economic growth and the development of a knowledge-based economy. The Government understands that competitive telecommunications markets are essential to achieving the innovative knowledge-based economy of which we are capable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to promote incentives for investment in new infrastructure for both new and existing players. It is also designed to achieve a cultural change in the telecommunications industry. I note that the telecommunications industry has already responded to the reforms in this bill and is working collectively towards a new digital future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ELet me take a moment to recap why we are taking these measures today. The telecommunications stocktake revealed that New Zealand is in the bottom third of OECD countries across a range of telecommunication services, pricing, and broadband take-up indicators. Specifically our connection speed offerings were, on the average, still too slow. Our standard upload speed has been too slow for many users and has inhibited some important applications in the development of advanced services. We are still one of the few countries where restrictive data caps have been the norm. OECD rankings on average per person investment in telecommunications infrastructure placed us 22nd out of 30 nations. Similarly, the OECD\u2019s mid-2005 rankings for the level of broadband uptake also placed us 22nd out of 30. Quite frankly those figures were unacceptable. It is just not a sustainable situation for a small, smart country to be in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFurther analysis showed that the status quo was inadequate to boost our broadband performance. It was clear that regulation was needed to deliver the competitive telecommunications markets for New Zealand, needed to achieve economic transformation. This bill will provide for stronger competition both on the copper wire network, or local loop, and in complementary technology such as wireless, mobile, and satellite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Telecommunications Act 2001 to ensure the effective regulation of the telecommunications sector. This is necessary to ensure the Government\u2019s objectives in telecommunications are met for the long-term benefit of New Zealanders. It implements the findings of two separate, but related, review processes\u2014the telecommunications implementation review and the recent telecommunications stocktake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E The bill itself focuses on four elements: extending the range of bottleneck services subject to regulation; enhancing regulatory processes; empowering the commissioner to monitor industry developments and ensure regulatory compliance; and separation measures to promote further competition, non-discrimination in wholesale markets, and service equivalents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EFirstly, I turn to extending the range of bottleneck services subject to regulation. Regulated services are the heart of the regulatory regime. This bill brings New Zealand into line with international best practice by unbundling the local loop, removing restrictions on the existing unbundled bitstream service, and clarifying that wholesale bitstream can be purchased without having also to purchase a phone service\u2014the so-called naked DSL. I am pleased to say that submissions to the Finance and Expenditure Committee on these matters were broadly supportive of these provisions. The select committee has made a number of amendments that usefully clarify the detail of these regulated services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn relation to enhancing regulatory processes, it is important to ensure that the Telecommunications Commissioner can effectively implement the regulation of these services. The bill introduces new regulatory processes and enhances existing processes to ensure that service providers can get effective and timely access to regulated services. In particular, the bill empowers the commissioner to set standard access terms and conditions for all access seekers at once, rather than on an individual basis as previously required. It enables access seekers to obtain access to regulated services, notwithstanding existing commercial agreements for the supply of regulated service. It provides for a quality of access by preventing prejudicial treatment by an access provider towards access seekers who seek regulated terms for services. The Finance and Expenditure Committee received a number of submissions on these matters and made some useful minor amendments that have been made to ensure the regulatory processes in the bill are fair, robust, and effective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn relation to empowering the commissioner, the bill introduces a number of key changes to empower the commissioner to monitor and enforce compliance of regulatory obligations. The select committee received submissions on these provisions and made some amendments to ensure that an appropriate balance is struck between the fairness and effectiveness of the enforcement regime. The bill includes an information disclosure regime that empowers the commissioner to require access providers to prepare and publicly disclose relevant information about regulated services. It requires the commissioner to monitor the development and performance of telecommunications markets and strengthens and standardises the enforcement regime to ensure compliance with the regulatory obligations under the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn relation to separation measures, the Telecommunications Amendment Bill introduces an accounting separation regime that will increase the transparency of Telecom New Zealand\u2019s business operations. At my request the Finance and Expenditure Committee also received and considered public submissions on other separation measures, such as structural and operational separation. The majority of submissions were generally supportive of a robust, three-way operational separation of Telecom to promote competition and equivalence of access to key wholesale services, particularly if this could be achieved with the cooperation of Telecom. It is pleasing that the committee has comprehensively addressed these submissions by amending the bill to provide a process for the Minister of Communications to settle an operational separation with Telecom, following public consultation. The committee has also included firm and appropriate powers to enable the Minister and the Commerce Commission to ensure that a robust, three-way operational separation will be achieved, so that others are treated the same, or in an equivalent way, as Telecom\u2019s own subsidiary in dealing with bottleneck and other wholesale services. The Government welcomes and supports the changes introduced by the Finance and Expenditure Committee and thanks the committee for its diligence and care in dealing with this important matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn addition to the core changes I have outlined, the bill addresses a number of implementation issues that have been identified through past experiences with the processes of the Act, but owing to time constraints I will not go through all of those this morning. In conclusion, the Telecommunications Amendment Bill is landmark legislation that will help New Zealand to realise its digital future. It will facilitate New Zealand\u2019s transformation to a dynamic, knowledge-based economy and society, underpinned by values of fairness, opportunity, and security. The bill will promote competition, innovation, and investment in the telecommunications sector, which has been identified quite rightly as a key enabler of New Zealand\u2019s economic transformation. The reforms in the Telecommunications Amendment Bill will speed the realisation of those goals, and more. The truly exciting aspect of the bill is the innovation and ingenuity that its presence is already releasing across the telecommunications sector and the broader high-tech community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMay I take this opportunity to thank all members of the select committee who worked on the bill. I thank the chairman for his good work, and thank a very hard-working team of officials and office staff who have really worked very hard to get this legislation through, ahead of schedule. I commend this important landmark bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00220af720b717454323bfcf7af59a067c71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220af720b717454323bfcf7af59a067c71\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will be voting for the Telecommunications Amendment Bill. I must say that working on the Finance and Expenditure Committee on this legislation has been an interesting exercise, because the bill that Parliament now debates is very different from the bill that the Government first introduced into Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis issue is controversial. Really, the whole argument around whether the local loop should be unbundled, as it is colloquially referred to, has been in front of Governments going back at least a decade or more. Members may recollect that a lot of controversy surrounded the introduction of this bill, when what the Government proposed to do in order to unbundle the local loop was leaked. Within days of that leak a couple of billion dollars was wiped off the share price of Telecom New Zealand, so the Government\u2019s handling of this matter has not been perhaps the most clever that it could have been. Certainly, ordinary New Zealanders lost an awful lot of their personal asset\u2014their personal wealth, if you like\u2014through the way the Government handled this matter, with almost $2 billion, I think, being wiped off the share value of Telecom New Zealand. I must say that I have no shares in Telecom New Zealand, so that did not affect me personally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe fundamental issue around the unbundling of the local loop or, in other words, giving competitors access to the copper wire that links most New Zealanders to their nearest exchange, has been controversial for many years. The evidence around the value of unbundling, or giving competitors access to that copper wire, is mixed. The select committee heard a fascinating submission from one of New Zealand\u2019s foremost academics in the area of competition law, who went through most of the evidence from around the world where the local loop had been unbundled and talked about the impact on the uptake of broadband and on access to modern communications technology. I will never forget one of the key issues that came out of that academic presentation to the select committee, and it came from more than one person. The bit that sticks in my mind is not so much the detail of whether the evidence clearly showed that local loop unbundling has worked in this country or that country and has not worked in others, but the bit that showed that the greatest advances happen when we have competition between communication platforms, rather than competition within a platform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI say that because I want the Minister to reflect on that point, and I want the Government to keep in its mind that this legislation leads mainly to intra-platform competition. The local loop is one platform compared with, say, wireless technology. So when we talk about the copper wire in the local loop it is a platform, as distinct from wireless technology, which is another platform. One of the arguments in the past has been that by not unbundling the local loop, we would build stronger competition between platforms\u2014between, say, wireless technology and copper wire\u2014and, therefore, we would advance access to communications technology most effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EHaving said that, the Government has made the decision to unbundle the local loop, and I hope that a lot of research will be done by our academic institutions on how that affects the advance of communications technology in New Zealand. The interesting issue as we look ahead will be the extent to which it brings focus on to intra-platform competition or, in other words, competition using the technology of the old copper wire, which most telephones and most computers are linked up to, compared with advancing the competition between wireless technology and the old technology of copper wire. The answer to that is unknown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI stress that National supports this legislation. But we acknowledge, in doing so, that it is unknown what effect this legislation will have on those two hugely important factors in advancing competition in communications technology: whether it will give too much emphasis to competition within a platform\u2014in other words, competition on the old copper wire\u2014compared with competition between platforms. There are, of course, all sorts of issues around the property rights that Telecom had taken off it, but I think those arguments have been and gone, and we have to look to the future. That is why we are prepared to support the Government on these moves. But in acknowledging that, as we look ahead we must make sure that that issue is thoroughly researched in order to ensure competition is most effectively advanced by this legislation, and, therefore, the access of New Zealanders to the very best communications technology is advanced most effectively by it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing about the process of this legislation was that the Government made the decision to unbundle the local loop and, in the bill that it introduced, to try to bring more transparency to Telecom\u2019s operations by requiring an accounting separation, so that people could see quite clearly that competitors were being given appropriate access to the local loop. As it transpires, the select committee has gone much further than that. The legislation that this Parliament now debates is far further down the track of transparency than the original version of the bill envisaged. Beyond having just an accounting separation, this legislation now gives effect to an operational separation of Telecom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIn supporting this legislation, I want to make it clear that National was happy to support the operational separation of Telecom, but that National members drew a line in the sand and said we would not support the structural separation, or the break-up, of Telecom. We insisted that the Government remove that sword from over the head of Telecom, because while the threat of structural separation remains in the picture Telecom\u2019s value is severely compromised. I want to make sure that the Government members of this Parliament realise that this bill provides for operational separation, not structural separation. The Government must not threaten Telecom with structural separation unless it wants to deprive hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders of the value they own in Telecom. If we threaten Telecom with structural separation, we will strip value out of Telecom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to make sure that Government members who have not been involved in considering this legislation are aware of the seriousness of that issue. National drew an absolute line in the sand there. We will support operational separation, but we will not support structural separation. We want members of this House to be fully aware of the potential damage to New Zealand\u2019s biggest company, to our major telecommunications company, if the threat of structural separation is not taken right off the agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me make it very clear what is meant by operational separation. The select committee has proposed that Telecom should operate in three sections: one being access to its network services, the second being the operation of its essentially wholesale services, and the third being its other services, which include largely retail services. How we were to give effect to that then became a critically important issue Were we to try to write into legislation the detail of the operational separation? I argued strongly at the select committee, based on my 9 years\u2019 experience as a Minister, about the way that it should be implemented\u2014about the preparation of the operational separation plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere was some debate at the select committee about whether the Minister\u2014in other words, the Government\u2014or Telecom should write the separation plan. I argued very strongly, personally, that Telecom should draft the separation plan, because only Telecom knows the detail of how it can be given effect. But the legislation makes sure the Minister has ultimate control over it. The Minister has the ultimate power to make sure the draft plan is written, and the Minister can give directions as to what should go into the draft plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EPersonally I consider section 69AAD, \u201CMain requirements for separation plan\u201D, and section 69AAH, \u201CPreparation of draft separation plan\u201D, in clause 32, to be quite well drafted. I take some credit for arguing strongly as to the balance between Telecom and the Minister in relation to those provisions. I think the balance in the bill is good. Given that the decision has been made to progress operational separation, I think the way the legislation is drafted makes sense. It has the right balance between the requirements on Telecom and the ability of the Minister to have ultimate control over the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis is major legislation. National happily supports it, but we want to make sure that members of the House are aware there are unknown issues as we look ahead. We must monitor the competitive situation, to make sure that the interests of all New Zealanders are advanced as far as possible by this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00220f35d0efacbd4c4db05e3d382e4b511e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f35d0efacbd4c4db05e3d382e4b511e\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, m\u014Drena, Madam Assistant Speaker. I rise to support much of what Dr Smith has said. However, in my case there will be great content and great brevity, unlike in his delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI must say that the Finance and Expenditure Committee formed a collaborative spirit on this bill and we operated between two poles. The first pole was how does a group of legislators effect better competition outcomes and provide a statutory basis for improved competition whilst at the same time not compromising a pro-investment framework. When we were given the bill, it followed a long list of events of a particular important nature in relation to the calendar of this House. It followed on from the Prime Minister identifying that telecommunications reform would comprise an important part of the work programme. So it is with particular pleasure that I stand as the chair of our committee, having seen the Prime Minister deliver in her speech early in 2006 that the outstanding problem of competition in telecommunications would not sit hovering without being given the overdue attention of the State, and now we stand here passing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe officials were of great assistance to our committee. On our committee we are basically generalists. We have had three hefty statutes to shepherd forward and eventually take root in the legislative landscape. The first was the KiwiSaver Bill, the second was the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill that we put to bed last night, and the third was the Telecommunications Amendment Bill. When I say that we are generalists, there is a strong understanding of the importance of getting the balance right between the regulatory stick and ensuring that investors and the business community can go about their activities of pursuing profit, because through profit lies rewards for those people who are prepared to invest in enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EYes, Dr Smith is right to highlight the fact that the value of Telecom shares took a wee bit of a dip earlier in the year, but it is unfair to label as the culprit for that dip the policy that was leaked, but that was shepherded and brought forward by my colleague Mr Cunliffe. Telecom itself had made a host of investments, not all of which yielded profit. I have no doubt in my mind that the impatience in the market as to how well it was doing was also behind the drop in the value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut once the bill found its way to our committee, we provided ample opportunity for submitters\u2014a number of whom proved to be very raucous\u2014to come before the committee. We even went beyond the call of duty and enabled an academic to present and run the risk of putting us to sleep at about 9.30 at night. This late hour is reflective of the industriousness of this committee. She rates a mention, although much of the content of her work did not find a great deal of favour with members of our committee, maybe because Bryce Wilkinson, that great friend of the market and opponent of anything to do with regulation, was her mentor. However, her work is referred to in the committee\u2019s report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Internet service providers, who are going to really struggle despite the existence of this improved competition framework, had an opportunity to be heard. The incumbent had a second opportunity through being given a private hearing. The committee members took a little stick for that, but we felt that, given the huge amount of commercial worth tied up in the Telecom company, the Telecom people deserved an opportunity to speak candidly with committee members, and vice versa. Obviously, the other players, including TelstraClear, all had an opportunity, and they were challenged by Mr Williamson, who asked them whether they were acting and talking in a manner consistent with their parent company over in Australia. Indeed, Telecom was asked a similar question as to why it was saying one thing in Aotearoa and another in Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo, in all, it proved to be a successful select committee process. I give full credit to the assistance we received from the officials, who, from time to time, have to work with the very creative and, dare I say, haphazard process when politicians are let loose on new policy in a select committee. But it all came to pass. It is a reasonable compromise. We are confident that competition will flow, and investment has not been thwarted. We look forward to lots of the promises that were given to the select committee being fulfilled. We hope we will see an improvement in competition, investment, and infrastructure. I say to all my fellow committee members that we worked well and we have come up with a reasonable compromise. Have a merry Christmas. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfe788560f0247a6bb261556ed013090\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfe788560f0247a6bb261556ed013090\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First, likewise, supports the Telecommunications Amendment Bill. I am pleased to say that we have total agreement in the House, I think. I thank the chairman of the Commerce Committee, the officials who guided us through a very, very technical process, and, indeed, the Minister David Cunliffe, who, as the previous two speakers have said, allowed us to roam more widely than perhaps was the initial intent, and the result is all the better for that. I also mention, right up front, the new chairman of Telecom, Mr Wayne Boyd, who grasped, rather more quickly than others in his organisation might have, that this was a serious matter, that Telecom needed to engage in a very serious manner, and that it is not purely commercial\u2014there is a huge political component in Telecom, given the fact that it alone has access to virtually every house in New Zealand. We as a Government, and as a Parliament, are demanding that it share that access with others, for the benefit of competition\u2014not to share it for free. Telecom, in our view, now has a chance to make a significant business out of the wholesale department\u2014if we can call it that, in simplistic terms\u2014in charging others to access its lines and its technology in order to provide further services and speedier services to homes and businesses throughout New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E I just make a brief note here that we started with the task of unbundling the local loop, and spoke about it rarely thereafter. We spoke about a whole lot of other things, but, in fact, that was the object of the exercise, and that is what has been achieved at the end of the day. I agree with Dr Lockwood Smith, and the chairman, Shane Jones, that it is a price-sensitive business. It is a sensitive business with regard to the price that is charged for people to enter the loop, and it is a sensitive business not only for the current investors but also for the future investors in Telecom. So it was important that all of the legislation pictured in the future be brought forward and put into this bill, so that once and for all Telecom could have surety, those people whom we want to invest in Telecom would know what they were dealing with, we could have investment at a reasonable rate, Telecom would not have to put a margin on for unnecessary risk, and all those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee also had to deal with the environment, and it had two former Ministers involved in that process, which was quite fortunate. One former Minister came from a National administration and one came from a Labour administration. It is good that we had those Ministers there, because they both felt, in their previous lifetimes as telecommunication Ministers, that they had been hard done by, by Telecom; in other words, Telecom had taken the legislation and proceeded to go around it, over it, under it, and in every other direction, and had not lived up to what the Ministers thought were its responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EAgain, I praise the present Minister by pointing out that it was his intent to ensure, without going too far, that that would not happen again, and right through the select committee process there was that understanding. That is where the present chairman of Telecom understood that in order to atone, if you like\u2014and that is not quite the word\u2014for sins of the past, he had to push his company and his employees rather further than they might have gone on their own. I am sure he did that in consultation with the Minister, I know there was consultation with the chairman, and that is as it should be. We have a better bill because of all that discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EAs the chairman said, there was some heartache, or grief, or aggravation around the fact that we had the chairman on his own in a so-called private session, but I think it was that sort of approach to the process that produced some understanding, and it was after that meeting that we were able to proceed\u2014quite quickly, in actual fact\u2014to a resolution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe Minister and Telecom are required to work out all sorts of undertakings together so that the legislation will be completed today. But, in fact, this is just the start of a process that will now not necessarily go behind closed doors but will go from this Parliament to the Minister\u2019s office, to Telecom, to the public, and to users of these systems. I say that because when a matter goes off our table, it is sometimes convenient for us to forget about it, but the Minister and his team will really now just start to engage seriously with Telecom. It is through those undertakings and that process that we will have fair competition in this market, and we will have the sorts of things that the Minister and the Government envisage for this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe are a smart country. We need to do things in a smarter way than other people, but we cannot do that if we do not have the smartest technology to work with and, indeed, the ability to communicate with our clients overseas when we come to sell things to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo I look forward to those discussions happening within Telecom itself; it is Telecom\u2019s responsibility to come up with the proposals in the first instance, and it is for the Minister to discuss that and to sign those proposals off. That is as it should be, and I am sure we will have something that will work very, very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EAll through the process we were also aware of a share price and share value, and I am pleased to say that at the end of this process, when the report was put out to the public, the share price of Telecom actually went up and has gone up further since then. I know that the senior management team in Telecom has as one of its aims and objectives the regaining of the lost share value that came about because of fears of what the Government may do to this company. In actual fact, those fears have not been realised. The competition that is required by this bill will be fair competition. It will enable Telecom\u2014in our view\u2014to build a wholesale business that it hitherto has not had. I think that share price and that value will be recouped in the fullness of time. We look forward to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00225cfc9a7a7e5c4e378892b692611b896c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cfc9a7a7e5c4e378892b692611b896c\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Sometimes I feel like I have been bashing my head against a jagged rock. It is not just me; so have all of the greenies, environmentalists, \u201Cnatural capitalists\u201D, ecologists, hippies, climatologists\u2014everyone who has been warning that we are living beyond our ecological means. We have been called weirdos, freaks, and Luddites\u2014and that is just by the members in this Chamber! We have been objects of derision and loathing for saying the things that today are almost self-evident, for saying the things that leaders\u2014political leaders of all shades\u2014are now clambering over each other to claim. Today it is easy to talk about climate change, ecological degradation, the need to protect the environment and biodiversity, and the need to safeguard environmental services; the challenge today is what we are going to do about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EA good example is air travel. Carbon dioxide emissions from air travel are responsible for 3.4 percent of New Zealand\u2019s emissions, and are growing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314c181b7a1940a2bd1254a3017237b5\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Doug, your speech must have been so great he didn\u2019t know what you were talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4825e8f40a84678b3538af011a19765\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to wait and to be patient. Roughly speaking, a kilometre of domestic air travel releases 180 grams of carbon dioxide. So a return trip from Invercargill to Auckland emits half a tonne of carbon dioxide. If we are to start to deal with making New Zealand a carbon neutral country, we have to look at how we can change our behaviour with regard to that kind of thing. That means, of course, doing things like scheduling multiple events on one trip, to reduce the need to get on a plane. But also it requires that we maximise the use of communication technologies such as audio conferencing and videoconferencing. One of the things that the Telecommunications Amendment Bill is about is making that kind of technology more accessible to more people more consistently. It is about allowing New Zealanders to take full advantage of those technologies as they develop, so that New Zealand can remain economically competitive, while ensuring that we are able to protect our environmental sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe reason why the Green Party supports this bill\u2014and has supported it from its introduction\u2014is that for us it is all about safeguarding environmental sustainability. It is about future-proofing the New Zealand economy in order that we can survive and thrive as a nation in the new environmental realities of the world that we live in. In my first reading speech I said that if we are to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and make things like telecommuting an actual reality in the day-to-day lives of ordinary New Zealanders, then unlocking the potential of broadband in our telecommunications infrastructure is exactly what we need to do. That is precisely why the Greens see this legislation as vital. As I said, it is about future-proofing the New Zealand economy and making it more resilient in the face of such threats as climate change and peak oil.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E If we are to do that, a careful balance must be struck between ensuring that the legislation leaves in place conditions that support continued investment in a rapidly changing technological environment, and at the same time promoting fair competition and affordable access to genuine high-speed broadband. The previous environment simply did not strike that balance. But, of course, we have to be very careful that any interventions we make do not cause unintended consequences. The bill as introduced was a very good start but left some matters unresolved. I think the Finance and Expenditure Committee did a very good job in grappling with those issues and coming up with key recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E As a result of that work, important players in the sector have warmly welcomed the amended bill. The Internet Society of New Zealand has congratulated the Finance and Expenditure Committee on its report back, and particularly on its recommendation of operational separation of Telecom\u2019s network under an independent oversight group. The Executive Director, Keith Davidson, says that having the network separated out from the wholesale and retail arms is absolutely necessary. The network, he says, is the enduring bottleneck, and it needs to be separated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe committee gave a lot of thought to how best to do that. It was interesting to hear Lockwood Smith tell us all how National had put the hard word on the Government to make sure that structural separation did not take place. It was very interesting to hear him say that, and I think we need to put the record straight. Actually, the whole committee was interested in producing the best outcomes. The whole committee looked at these matters with an open mind and heard the evidence. For National to say that somehow its members were the bulwark for Telecom is simply incorrect. In fact, if I might say so, if it had been left to National, we might not have the separation we are now looking at. Its members appeared much more willing to accept Telecom\u2019s strange second proposal, with its complexity and its inability to achieve the outcomes that we all agreed we were looking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe bill did not originally require either structural separation or operational separation, actually. It called for an accounting separation. Although the committee was careful to avoid conducting a direct negotiation with Telecom about the exact form that that operational separation might take, we did outline some of the parameters of it and the process for making a relatively speedy decision. One thing is clear: the need to get the job done so that everyone can get on with it in the new regulatory environment. The parameters that we looked at and recommended include a fixed network access services business unit, one or more business units that must provide a wholesale function for all relevant services, and one or more other business units\u2014and we are talking about the retail side there. The select committee recommended that Telecom must operate these business units at arm\u2019s length from its other business units, and must ensure transparency and equivalence in relation to the supply by Telecom of relevant services. The select committee also recommended the insertion of section 69AAE, in clause 32, which defines the term \u201Cequivalence\u201D as being \u201Cequivalence of supply of wholesale telecommunications services and access to Telecom\u2019s network so that third party access seekers are treated in the same or an equivalent way to Telecom\u2019s own business operations, including in relation to pricing, procedures, operational support, supply of information, and other relevant matters.\u201D, in relation to its supply of certain telecommunications services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe did not entirely answer the question of whether we are looking at equivalence of inputs or equivalence of outputs, especially in relation to legacy products. The Internet Service Providers Association of New Zealand President, David Diprose, has said that it \u201Cis understandable that Telecom would desire Equivalence of Outputs for its so-called legacy products rather than Equivalents of Inputs. However, Equivalence of Outputs doesn\u2019t give the necessary results and can be gamed to Telecom\u2019s advantage. Equivalence of Inputs, treating all wholesale customers the same as its own ISP, is a key practical requirement to provide competition in the market and to achieve the resultant benefits from end-users.\u201D The Greens encourage the Minister of Communications to require equivalence of inputs, and to further ensure that he listens very carefully to the results of consultation with stakeholders during the negotiations over the details of how that operational separation will work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI would like to end by making a point that relates to my opening remark that sometimes the Greens feel that we have been bashing our heads against a jagged rock for years. The Green MP Sue Kedgley moved amendments during the progress of the previous Telecommunications Amendment Bill to introduce local loop unbundling. At the time, that did not have the support of the House. But, as with issues of climate change, it has taken a few years for the rest of the House to catch up, and even, in this case\u2014if not in the case of climate change\u2014to go further than the position the Green Party originally put. I think this report is an excellent piece of work from a select committee working on a cross-party basis, and I thoroughly commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022517426ae431e45839c4eb3d76ad430f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022517426ae431e45839c4eb3d76ad430f8\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena, Madam Assistant Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. I think it is acknowledged that communications technology changes faster than I have been known to run, which might be a bit of a surprise to some. Just over a decade ago the concept of a teleconference, for example, was so remarkable that new regulations had to be introduced to accommodate the advances of the telecommunication industry. I was looking up the Maori Incorporations Constitution Regulations of 1994 the other day, as one does, and I was struck by the change to the 1969 regulations\u2014clause 126, to be precise\u2014which permits a teleconference of committees of management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885b51c114ba4354bf87e98467e050a6\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I remember it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a0a20cadc31435ea5f50236ce3ffab9\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL\u003C/span\u003E: I will give the member a little bit more information. The regulation describes \u201Cteleconference\u201D as \u201CThe contemporaneous linking together by telephone or other means of instantaneous audio (or audio and visual) communication\u201D of a quorum of the committee. I am sure people remember that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EToday we are also debating new regulatory provisions and, indeed, enhancements to the regulatory process. The bill aims to address issues to achieve the efficient and effective regulation of the telecommunications sector. But there are some key differences in time between 2006 and 1994\u2014and, indeed, 1969\u2014that this bill represents. As I said at the start, we are now immersed in a rapidly evolving telecommunications market. Competition introduces new tensions to the industry so that providers are vying to present the best cost options for fixed line telephone services, for broadband, for mobile, and for call network. We are watching a dynamic market develop that has the potential to provide increased capacity to areas through installing high-capacity transmission systems, through the laying of fibre-optic cable\u2014and that is all great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhatever package is being put forward, the improvements to major fixed and mobile investment projects, the capacity of wireless broadband coverage, and the growth of wireless technologies have to be good for New Zealand, even if most seem to be just worried about losing their mobiles. Increasingly, there are more and more New Zealanders who need to benefit from the technology. The census results last week reported that 74.2 percent of households in New Zealand have access to cellphones, and for young New Zealanders the percentage is even higher, with more than 85 percent stuck to their cellphones. We are really pleased that this bill builds on this emerging momentum and sends a very strong policy signal to the two megaplayers, Telecom and Vodafone, that they will be subject to a greater degree of Government regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn this regard there has been failure by successive Governments to step up to the mark. A mass of light-handed regulation has resulted in some fairly dramatic problems\u2014problems that are evident in results such as the fact that we boast the highest mobile rates in the OECD. Well, boast is hardly the word I would use when I am presented with my daughter\u2019s mobile accounts, demonstrating young people\u2019s prolific and accomplished use of mobile technology. Still, we are moving on, and moving on is something that this bill enables New Zealanders to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe amendments in this bill seek both to improve the performance of the telecommunications market and to deliver long-term benefits to the end users. It also helps to promote competition. As part of this focus on transparency and access for competitors, and in addition to the accounting separation regime proposed in the original bill, I see that the Finance and Expenditure Committee recommended the introduction of an operational separation regime for Telecom to promote both competition and efficiency. The M\u0101ori Party is happy to support this change and the other amendments put forward by the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing, however, that the necessary amendments to allow M\u0101ori interests to enter the mobile market were not included in this report. The critical issue for tangata whenua interests is around M\u0101ori spectrum interests. As I see it, the regulatory focus dominating the bill is on fixed line rather than mobile. As I understand it, fixed-line communication costs in Aotearoa, including ADSL Broadband, are much higher than in most other OECD countries, and it is artificially kept that way. We know that where there is competition for fixed line-costs, customers will achieve lower prices by at least $10 per month, and we support that. But the costs for mobile for both new industry players and customers alike are also kept artificially high, resulting in the highest rates in the OECD, as I commented earlier. I note that a number of the submissions to the Finance and Expenditure Committee pointed out that mobile is not a separate issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut the key issue for M\u0101ori is that M\u0101ori spectrum interests\u2014Hautaki Trust, Econet\u2014are in mobile. Until the mobile issue is sorted, M\u0101ori are unable to access the telecommunications industry, and, consequently, unable to access the $3 billion mobile market. The focus on mobile is no random decision. M\u0101ori consumers are jumping right over a generation of technology; leapfrogging, if one likes, the copper wire network, and going straight to the less capital-intensive wireless technology, including mobile phones. Anyone who hangs around with our rangatahi will know that most young M\u0101ori are relying on mobile phones\u2014mostly prepay\u2014for their communication needs. That is the way of the future. Young people jump from provider to provider, depending on which one has the best offer this month; and that is how it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIndeed, an example in the health sector demonstrates the impact of mobile technology not just as a means of communication but as a site for a new public health initiative. A study reported in the June 2005 New Zealand Medical Journal concluded that a mobile phone - based smoking cessation programme was extremely successful in recruiting young M\u0101ori. The programme used regular personalised text messages to provide smoking-cessation advice, support, and distraction, both in English and in M\u0101ori, and sourced in M\u0101ori tradition; and, importantly, text messaging was free for 1 month. The messages were brief and bold, and to the point, flashing concepts such as change, courage, challenge, action, goal, strength\u2014from one phone to another. I am told it was a very successful idea, and the high M\u0101ori participation in the trial demonstrates how accessible, and acceptable, it is to our young. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EToday and every day over a million text messages are sent in New Zealand. The M\u0101ori Party cannot therefore let the opportunity provided by this bill pass without noting the importance of addressing the mobile market concerns, and in doing so remind the House that such action will allow M\u0101ori interest to enter the market. The bill does not deal with the fundamental obstacle whereby M\u0101ori still have to buy their way into the telecommunications industry instead of being there as of right, as the Waitangi Tribunal recommended. The tribunal\u2019s report on the radio spectrum found that M\u0101ori do have an interest in the management rights to go with the radio spectrum, and that the two partners to the Treaty should have discussions about them. Yet, characteristically, the Crown simply proceeded with legislation to give 100 percent control over these management rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe are again in the situation of making the best of a bad deal for M\u0101ori. One recommendation that has been put forward to allow M\u0101ori to enter the mobile market, has been to create the category of specified services from the Telecommunications Act and move the services listed into the designated services category. Specified services are services where the Telecommunications Commissioner can regulate everything except price. Designated services are services where the Telecommunications Commissioner can regulate everything, including price. As we noted in the first reading of the bill, regulation of everything except price is not regulation at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s digital future relies on cost-effective, efficient, and competitive telecommunications infrastructure. The M\u0101ori Party will support any initiative to ensure that the New Zealand consumer is being delivered a world-class telecommunications service at the lowest cost and highest quality that a truly competitive market could bring. The telecommunications sector has always been one that directly affects the consumer, yet it is frequently perceived by most people as big companies profiteering at the hands of the small consumer. Our support for this bill is therefore based on our motivation of championing consumers by indicating a willingness to regulate companies if charges continue to increase unfairly or competition is hampered. We are, however, committed to ensuring that the impact of mobile technology, and the way in which it is revolutionised by business and social interactions, must be investigated if we are truly to achieve progress. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022497faa444f0c4fbc8defc9ac028089aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022497faa444f0c4fbc8defc9ac028089aa\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E The explosion of the Internet and the resulting global connectedness that that has brought to the human race is surely one of the great marvels of our age. I for one, as a technophobe from way back, find quite amazing the extent to which we can now, from any given spot on this planet with access to a computer or mobile phone, communicate over vast distances in the blink of an eye. That global interconnectedness is therefore a present reality for New Zealand, not only for its citizens in terms of the way they communicate with one another\u2014family and friends\u2014but also, of course, from the footprint, as it were, of New Zealand exporting industries and other companies to the rest of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EOur geographical isolation gives New Zealand a comparative competitive disadvantage in relation to the rest of the planet. We are, within the OECD, officially the nation that on average is the greatest geographical distance from its major markets. Those realities simply mean that when it comes to telecommunications we have to be not at the tail but actually at the head of telecommunication development. We have to be smart, we have to be clever, and we have to be on the pace if we are to stay in touch and develop our society going forward. That is essentially what this Telecommunications Amendment Bill is about. It seeks to ensure that through better competition, better combined technology, better investment, and smarter writing of programs etc., we have competitive telecommunication services at a price that represents world-best standard. As I say, I entirely agree with the Government\u2019s aspirations that we need to be up there in the top half of the OECD when it comes to broadband uptake and other parts of the telecommunication network. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would like to touch on a few things that have not been covered by other speakers during this second reading. Firstly, I agree with others that the select committee process has been a very, very good process. The Finance and Expenditure Committee picked up very quickly, and I well remember the submission from InternetNZ, what we call the three-box model of operational separation\u2014separation between the equal access network function with an independent oversight group, and the separation of Telecom\u2019s wholesale and retail divisions. New Zealand\u2019s largest single company will now be divided operationally into those three separate sections to enhance competition by basically ensuring that any perceptions of a natural monopoly in terms of the local loop etc. disappear, and we bring free and open competitive Internet markets to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want also to say that I very much enjoyed the submissions to the select committee by the Telecommunications Users Association of New Zealand; it also brought to our attention some very valid points. In the process, Telecom was also, I think, very good. As others have mentioned, during the select committee process we shifted ground enormously from mere accounting separation in the bill as introduced to now a complete operational separation into those three divisions. With a lot more work to come in terms of the implementation of that through binding undertakings, a draft separation plan, and a final separation plan, I am sure that will keep the Minister and the officials who expertly guided our committee very, very busy in the weeks and months to come. It is vitally important work, and I wish the Minister and the officials all the very best in taking this through to completion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want also to convey personally the House\u2019s thanks to the sometimes unsung people in this process, and I refer to the Parliamentary Counsel Office and the drafting that was necessary for this bill. We put the drafters under enormous pressure\u2014not only time pressure but pressure in terms of the complexity of what we wanted to see in the bill. Believe you me, that is not a straightforward process. I remember that at our first meeting with Telecom, its representatives brought along a diagram and circulated it to each member of the committee. I would defy any person who does not have an advanced postgraduate degree in telecommunications to ever begin to explain even one little section of that diagram to a technophobe such as myself. It just demonstrates, I suppose, the sheer complexity of what we are talking about\u2014the number of permutations and other variations that are possible in this whole area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ETo be able to sort all that through within the very, very tight time frame that we were given, along with the long hours that the committee put in\u2014including, as others have said\u2014evening sessions, I think was a great tribute to the select committee process of the New Zealand Parliament. I think this is a demonstration of how important the select committee process is to our democracy. It is not common in other jurisdictions for a bill like this to go through such a process. What has emerged at the other end is, I think we would all agree, a vast improvement on what entered the process after the first reading of the bill. As I have said, however, this represents just the beginning of a process that will go on in the weeks and months ahead as those vital undertakings are worked through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to take a moment to talk a little bit about Telecom and its importance to the New Zealand economy. As is well known, the circumstances surrounding the announcement of the Government\u2019s decision to unbundle the local loop were very, very unfortunate. There was a scandalous leak of that announcement to Telecom before its formal announcement, which was originally planned, I believe, for the Budget. As a result, about $2 billion was removed from Telecom\u2019s value at the stock exchange. I think that was going to happen anyway, but it was indeed an unfortunate beginning to the whole matter. But I wish Telecom all the very best for the future. It is important to New Zealand that Telecom remains a strong company. I believe that the bill as presented back to Parliament will allow Telecom to remain profitable and successful going forward. It is not the intention of the bill to bring that to an end. It is very, very important that Telecom does, because the fact is that the copper wire system we have, which Telecom owns in this country, is unique and will probably remain unique for all time to come. It is the only copper wire system we have that goes into our rural areas, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would like to mention, particularly, Internet services into rural areas. They need to be lifted, and lifted significantly, if we are to maintain the major part of our exporting base, which is still the primary sector, in good shape going forward. I believe that Telecom\u2014and probably Telecom alone in the short term, at least\u2014is the only company that will be able to ensure that that continues. I know that in Australia there has been real concern that Telstra over there has not kept pace with the needs of the rural areas, so I want to put in a plug for that to continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want also to mention, very briefly, property rights\u2014an issue that was brought up by a number of submitters. They brought it to me personally because, as is known, I have a bill before Parliament to introduce property rights into the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Can I just say that at no stage was that subject ever brought to the committee by Telecom itself or by the Telecom board. If there was to be an issue about property rights, then I would expect it would be taken up at that level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would like to mention also the point mentioned by Te Ururoa Flavell in relation to mobile phone services. It is true that Econet came and made very, very strong submissions to the committee, and it would be fair to say, went on at some length about the fact that Vodafone owned the spectrum and Econet cannot get access to it. I subsequently took the trouble to find out what the situation was and I was told that Vodafone is prepared to sell spectrum to Econet, or other companies, at any time for exactly the same price Vodafone paid originally, and has made this clear to Econet on several occasions. It seems to me that that is a very, very fair offer. I invite the M\u0101ori Party to look at that very carefully and simply ask why companies do not actually buy some spectrum from Vodafone and get into certain areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would have to say, though, that I went to a presentation just last week and of course they are now talking about digital radio, digital wireless\u2014this is the new thing that is coming along\u2014and when that happens we will find a whole range of new spectrum opens up, anyway. I think this is a temporary hitch. But I say to Econet, and to others that are involved in advancing M\u0101ori interests in this area, to get out there and give it a go, and to not sit back with their hands tied, expecting some sort of handout, because we expect them to exercise the same commercial entrepreneurship as everyone else\u2014something that, indeed, M\u0101ori are very good at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESo with those few remarks I want to again thank the officials for their service to the committee. I think we have made a very, very good start. It is not the end of the journey, but it is an important step towards that goal of cheap and competitive telecommunications services for New Zealand\u2014for its families, and for its businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002266e1011ebad648a7814da4447dcb3eb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266e1011ebad648a7814da4447dcb3eb1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I fear that the ACT party is rising here in the spirit of Christmas and is going to strike something of a bum note. I hear the National Party, United Future, the M\u0101ori Party, the Greens, Labour, and New Zealand First all happily agreeing to this bill, yet here we are, a party of just two MPs, and we are opposed totally to it. I hope that in the time I have available I can persuade others to join with me in voting against this bill to defeat it. I consider it to be a terrible mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI always remember when I was studying competition policy and economics at Montana State University, under Professor Ron Johnson, and having explained to me what \u201Cblackboard economics\u201D was. It is the idea that we can always pull out a blackboard and come up with an ideal answer to any real world situation that is so much better. We can prove to our own satisfaction, for example, that if we had just one manufacturer of cars in the world, and it made no changes, did not compete with anyone, and just brought out a new car as technology advanced every 5 years, we would gain huge economies of scale, because we would have one company producing the cars for all the world. The manufacturer would not have to compete or spend any money on advertising, and it would not have to be constantly updating new models and trying to sell them to us, because every 5 years it would just bring out a new sedan, a new station wagon, and a new four-wheel drive. In fact, we can prove to ourselves that if that manufacturer did that, it could produce a car for just $3,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240700a7a90384846b20cdaca50a0b6f4\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Like a Lada.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200cf969617f1402783bf59ceb813a46b\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014which would be a tremendous achievement; it just requires the Government to regulate and control the economy. Of course, we know that when that happens\u2014and I heard Dr Lockwood Smith call it out\u2014we actually get a Trabant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo that is what happens when we go from the blackboard to the real world, and this is what so deeply troubles me about this legislation. I have heard MPs saying that telecommunications is a fast-moving industry and that it is so complex that they could not understand the wiring diagram, etc. Then they sat around in a committee and decided to order the largest publicly listed company in New Zealand to split operationally, as though MPs know best how to run that business. I have heard MPs here today saying that this will be good for Telecom because it will be able to compete in the wholesale market and it will be a good deal for the company. I am afraid that I do not share that optimism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe ACT party opposes this bill for the same reason we opposed the Foreshore and Seabed Bill. When members look at legislation like this, they should always remind themselves of the principles behind it. I have to say that ACT\u2019s opposition to the Foreshore and Seabed Bill was deeply unpopular with its supporters. I am sure that I am out of step with the vast majority of New Zealanders on this Telecommunications Amendment Bill, because everyone wants to sock it to Telecom. We heard from Mr Flavell that his daughter\u2019s phone bill was so high that we should sock it to Telecom. He said that Telecom New Zealand\u2019s prices are high compared with phone charges in other OECD countries, so we should sock it to Telecom. But members should understand that this House is doing exactly the same thing with this legislation that it did with the Foreshore and Seabed Bill\u2014we are pinching people\u2019s rights. We are opposing the legal process, and that has to be wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI would beg Mr Flavell not to go down the route that he was advocating in respect of Econet, because the idea there is that Vodafone has a monopoly in the mobile network, and Econet should be able to piggyback on the back of that. Well, I say \u201CNo\u201D to that for the same reason that I opposed the Foreshore and Seabed Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI heard Dr Lockwood Smith say that the Government did not handle it very well, because there was a leak. The Government could not stop someone from leaking information on that policy, because it was breaking all the rules\u2014one man leaked it. Actually, it was not the leak that wiped $2 billion off the value of Telecom shares; there had been lots of leaks and they had not affected Telecom. What wiped $2 billion from the value of Telecom shares was the policy. All that happened was that the leak announced the policy ahead of the Budget, and the loss of that share value definitely would have happened, anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI always enjoy listening to Mr Gordon Copeland, because he always makes a good contribution and he stands up for property rights. He said that United Future is not standing up for property rights in this case, because the Telecom board never raised the matter. But submitter after submitter raised the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMembers should understand what this bill does. There is no doubt in anyone\u2019s mind about the legal position of Telecom and its shareholders. They own the local loop. They own that copper wire. They bought it and paid for it, so it is legally theirs. What this legislation does is to take it from them and say that anyone can use it as long as they pay what Parliament or the Minister declares to be a fair price. That is like Parliament opening up Helen Clark\u2019s front porch and saying that anyone can use it whenever they want, as long as they pay their two bob. That would be wrong; that would be overturning property rights. It is the same principle with Telecom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIf we truly believe that there are such benefits to opening up the copper network, we should do so in a manner that is principled, and that would be to buy it back on behalf of the taxpayers of New Zealand or to pay full compensation. Are we seeing that happening? No. It is a straight case of \u201Ctake it\u201D, with no compensation. Why? The reason is that this House does not believe that the benefits are there, and therefore it is not prepared to compensate the shareholders for their loss. This legislation robs the shareholders of Telecom of their investment. That includes little old ladies\u2019 pension schemes. That is what this Parliament has done. It is doing it here today. We heard Mr Flavell saying that M\u0101ori are leapfrogging over the copper wire to the mobile network. Absolutely, they are! That just proves how competitive the industry is, and the future will be wireless and mobile, which also shows how competitive the industry is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhen Richard Prebble was the Postmaster-General or whatever we had in those days, which was not so long ago, he received a memo from the New Zealand Post Office. Do people remember the New Zealand Post Office? This would have been in the 1980s. The memo was advice to the Minister, and it stated: \u201CWe do not see much future for the fax machine in New Zealand, because we are perfectly served in this country by telegrams.\u201D The New Zealand Post Office recommended against the introduction of fax machines into New Zealand. Can people imagine that happening now? That happened just a little over 20 years ago. That is how far this industry has moved since then, and it has done that not because of what the Government has done but because people have invested in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is put a dampener on that investment, because people invest in New Zealand now somewhat at their peril. I am not crying doom and gloom over this, but I am saying that it does become a factor when people are investing in this small, island nation at the bottom of the Pacific. People could put in billions of dollars to build up a Vodafone mobile network, and Mr Flavell could get the numbers, pinch it from those investors\u2014like we are doing today\u2014and open it up to his mates. That is the danger of this. That is what has happened here. The investment into New Zealand will be somewhat diminished. How does that help competition? It does not. The way to help competition is simple: lower the regulatory burden on business; do not put it up; respect people\u2019s property rights and the fruits of their labour; and have a low flat tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI am proud to be in the ACT party voting against this bill. I am shocked that my colleagues and friends in National are supporting it. They are making a terrible mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022048fe944ca98445a9de663441bb7ae17\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227eba0e1f49b7419dbdc241390cd2a3fe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Telecommunications Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224412247663a54e7e9c6b487b9a5b9c22\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d408b46871e1482f81626e0909c3b07c\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1b2ec862655408cb19e9eb85f92c5ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1b2ec862655408cb19e9eb85f92c5ea\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I do not intend to take up too much of the Committee\u2019s time on this. There is a matter, though, that I put in front of the Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe. I was reminded of it by Gordon Copeland\u2019s contribution during the second reading, which touched a cord with me as a rural resident. The matter relates to rural telecommunications users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAt the Finance and Expenditure Committee it became a bit of a joke that on my computer at home I have access to the Internet at a speed of 23 kilobytes per second on a typical day. This is so slow that I cannot read PDF files, as I am not home long enough on weekends to download the Adobe Reader\u2014it would take more than all weekend to download it, and I do not want to leave the computer running when I am not there. So I am acutely aware of the problem for rural New Zealanders. In the select committee we were told by Telecom that if this is not handled very carefully, investment in access to the Internet and telecommunications for rural New Zealanders will actually be delayed, as the focus will go into areas of higher population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EA submission that a lot of the select committee members were fascinated by was the one made to us by the Institution of Professional Engineers. What the members of the institution said to us was very significant. They said that unbundling the local loop on its own will not achieve significant improvement of access to high-speed telecommunications. The issue is the physical length of the local loop. It has been discovered recently in most OECD countries around the world that the length of that copper loop is hugely important, and that one cannot deliver really high-speed Internet access over distances beyond 1,800 to 1,900 metres\u2014that is, 1.8 to 1.9 kilometres. If one wants to deliver, say, 5 megabytes per second\u2014remember I talked about 23 kilobytes; five megabytes is many, many times faster than that\u2014and one wants to get up to 90 percent of one\u2019s customers with that kind of access, a copper wire needs to be of no more than 800 metres. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister what the typical length of the local loop of copper wire is here in New Zealand. We were told by the Institution of Professional Engineers that to get that kind of average length for the local loop, one would need an investment of something like $1.5 billion. If one were to try to deliver it with mobile, one would need vast numbers of cell sites. If we want this kind of high-speed access, the length of that local loop is crucially important. For rural New Zealanders it is hugely important. From memory I am about 10 kilometres from my local exchange. So, far from having 800 metres of copper wire, I have 10 kilometres of it. Technologically, the ability of this reform to deliver any improvement in access for me is very limited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo those are my specific questions to the Minister the Hon David Cunliffe during this Committee stage. What is the typical length of the local loop here in New Zealand? How concerned is the Government about the advice from the Institution of Professional Engineers that local loop unbundling, technologically, cannot deliver the kinds of speeds the Government is looking for? The length of the local loop\u2014of the copper wire\u2014is hugely important. I am interested to know what the Government proposes to do about that. Will it just be ignored? Is there a plan to somehow ensure there is this kind of investment in local loop technology? Quite clearly, with the reform that this bill will bring into being, Telecom will not voluntarily make that investment; Telecom will be investing in areas of high population. What will happen to rural New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00221504ac3f280b42deb76853ebf8c6e218\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221504ac3f280b42deb76853ebf8c6e218\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is most fortunate that Dr Lockwood Smith has talked about those technological points and has gone through that detail. I want to talk about similar sorts of things, but in more general terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIn speaking on Part 1, I want to say that this bill allows for competitors to come in and pay a price to access homes and businesses. My concern\u2014and I know it is a concern of Lockwood Smith, Gordon Copeland, and others on the committee\u2014is that they do not do an excessive amount of cherry-picking. I know that Mr Hide believes in a completely unfettered market, but sometimes the market will deliver huge benefits to one portion of the population but virtually nothing to others. I think it is a concern for all of us that we do not have a situation whereby competitors coming into the market just cherry-pick and provide services in the big cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt would do the cause of competitors more good if they could show Telecom, the Government, and consumers that their intentions are honourable, and that they intend, having set up businesses in city areas with larger populations, at least to attempt to go out and provide some sort of competition in locations further afield\u2014and to our farmers, who we know produce most of our exports. I make that point because too often we look at a big company and say: \u201CHey, here is a company that is not performing as we think it should. What can we do about that? We can provide competition because it has not performed as we think it should since its sale as a Government enterprise.\u201D Then we blame it for not doing all of those things. But if we are going to provide that competition\u2014and Mr Hide says that we should\u2014it is then up to that competition to show good endeavours and to seek to do something about our rural environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESometimes the distance is not that far. The Hon Dr Lockwood Smith has talked about 10 kilometres down the road. I know approximately where he lives, but some of the farming areas we are talking about are more intensely settled. For example, I come from the Waikato and I believe that if competitors started in an area such as that they could get a reasonable return and provide a service. If competitors cherry-pick and just go after the good dollars in the cities, they will do their case some harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b0a096aef74b529db4d37df1200218\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Put up an amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158d8aba402545d189670acc66c5cf5f\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not going to put up an amendment. I do not believe it is an area that should be regulated, but I am saying that if those people want to show good endeavours and have the goodwill of customers, they will not do such a thing. I will leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbdd17a1e2eb4832ac12de29af58a05a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbdd17a1e2eb4832ac12de29af58a05a\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chairperson. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. I will take just a short call to give a brief explanation in respect of some recommendations that the M\u0101ori Party has made and put on the Table. I appreciate the discussion with the Minister the Hon David Cunliffe in respect of looking forward, and hopefully we will pick this up in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe amendments we propose are for a very special, simple purpose. They allow for specified services to be reclassified as designated services. I pointed out in the speech I gave not long ago that designated services are services where the Telecommunications Commissioner can regulate everything, including price. However, specified services are services where the Telecommunications Commissioner can regulate everything except the price. We say that the regulation of everything except price is not actually regulation at all. We make a recommendation to extend the ability to regulate on price and to include not just fixed lines but also mobile services, particularly roaming and relocation, in order to open up that particular door. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFor M\u0101ori to be able to enter the mobile market these changes are necessary. I simply ask the Committee to give these recommendations consideration as we go through this process. They are spread throughout Parts 1 and 2. Obviously, one piggybacks on to the other, but that is the general gist in respect of our recommendations. Depending on how things go, we would be prepared to pick up these recommendations and enter into discussions with the Minister in the future about this. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022b526b4bdb0204fa99e61872bdf28a75c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b526b4bdb0204fa99e61872bdf28a75c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Communications):\u003C/span\u003E Like other members, I do not intend to take much of the House\u2019s time here, but I note Mr Flavell\u2019s submission that he wishes to see the immediate designation of mobile co-location and roaming. These two services are currently specified under the legislation, which means that they are under regulatory scrutiny, but under which no price is set in regulation. The Government could not support amendments to the bill on that matter at this time. There is a very good reason for that. The reason is that the Commerce Commission currently has those two services under review and out for public submissions in a schedule 3 process under the Act. It is due to report on that next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt may well be that there is an element of truth behind what Mr Flavell is saying, but that is a matter for the due public process to ascertain. It would be to undermine the role of the commissioner, I think, for this House to legislate over the top of that process. M\u0101ori Party members know that my door is open if they wish to make submissions on that matter. Indeed, they could also make submissions to the commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E7A\tNew Part 2 heading substituted\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\tThe heading to Part 2 is repealed, and the following heading is substituted: Part 2  Designated Services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to Part 1 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E9A\tNew Subpart 2 heading substituted\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\tThe heading to Subpart 2 is repealed, and the following heading is substituted: Subpart 2  Determinations for Designated Access Services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to Part 1 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E9B\tApplication\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESubsection (1) of section 20 is repealed, and the following subsection is substituted:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E(1)\tAn access seeker or an access provider of a designated access service may apply to the Commission for a determination of all or some of the terms on which the service must be supplied during the period of time specified in the application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002279c0e79cd895461eb4f9bed8809d4ad0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279c0e79cd895461eb4f9bed8809d4ad0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The remaining amendments to Part 1 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell are out of order, for they are inconsistent with the previous decisions of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Cunliffe to clause 55 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (ce) of section 157(1) after the words \u201Cprocedures or\u201D, the word \u201Cminimum\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022810ba740c9f847408523a7f08b9cca4c\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments and transitional provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c63b759e75f64062b1d2bf6ff8a600a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c63b759e75f64062b1d2bf6ff8a600a2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We have some amendments to Part 2 in the name of the honourable member Te Ururoa Flavell, and I have to advise the Committee that they too are out of order because they are inconsistent with the previous decisions of the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Cunliffe to clause 64 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201Caccordingly to meet\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Caccording to their\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002280b6d68ee53b47b59f0bbfd06efaf5b1\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002263b933d9f20d46ba904ab6bb025b925d\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002271fcce2b74ac4c2c9ed4a02e17c287b4\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002221e3d68cbe334d909546ff89388f2dc0\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022071160fb7dfa4cbb86e9a8624150ecdf\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000148\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000149\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon David Cunliffe to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000150\u0022\u003Eto omit subclause (2), and substitute the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000151\u0022\u003E(2)\tThe rest of this Act comes into force on 22 December 2006.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000152\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000153\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000154\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000155\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000156\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ba0d3baaf8c4874bdc80b6c07b37ab6\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00229ac2b559baa9403aa32d3a02c5ea1f9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ac2b559baa9403aa32d3a02c5ea1f9a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Communications):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Telecommunications Amendment Bill be now read a third time. Today is a landmark day for telecommunications in New Zealand. It is a day on which we see the most significant change in the legislative and regulatory framework since Telecom New Zealand was privatised nearly two decades ago. As such, it is appropriate at the third reading of the bill that we reflect on where telecommunications policy has come from, what role this bill plays, and where it is heading henceforth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis bill is a central part of the Government\u2019s package of measures to assist the New Zealand telecommunications sector to catch up with leading OECD countries, and to keep up once it is there. Combined with the Government\u2019s broader information and communications technology and economic transformation programmes, this bill will promote and enhance competition in telecommunications markets for the long-term benefit of New Zealanders. It will facilitate innovation and investment in telecommunications infrastructure and services, and it will contribute to New Zealand\u2019s transformation to a dynamic, knowledge-based economy and society, underpinned by fairness, opportunity, and security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIt will also pick up the theme introduced by the Green Party, of course. Advanced telecommunications will make a contribution to environmental sustainability, as well, by creating new opportunities to telework and teleconference, and reduce the burden of travel on our environment. So it is all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EInformation and communications technologies are recognised internationally as fundamental enablers of economic, social, cultural, and sustainable development. If New Zealand is to succeed on the world stage, we simply cannot afford to fall behind in adopting advanced information and communications technology. New Zealanders are hungry for the advances and benefits that information and communications technologies can bring and, as a country, we have shown on many occasions our capacity to adopt, adapt, and benefit from technological innovation. The Government recognises the importance to New Zealanders of information and communications technology. New Zealanders have made very, very clear in many opinion polls their support for the reforms being carried through the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s policy framework was laid out in the Digital Strategy released in April 2005. The Digital Strategy emphasised the importance of progressing in parallel the three key enablers of information and communications technology\u2014connection, confidence, and content. Eighteen months on we can see that that strategy has been a success. Broadband Challenge, the Community Partnership Fund, and a range of other initiatives have been launched under the strategy, but today we tackle those key connection issues that, if not resolved, become the bottleneck on the achievement of the broader strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo it was that in November 2005 I launched the stocktake review of telecommunications, which reported on 3 May to the public. It is probably appropriate at this point to note that in the second reading debate a point was made by a member that the release of that review was under less than desirable circumstances. I agree with that point. Nobody was more shocked or annoyed than I was that a messenger in another department would see fit to breach his employment obligations and transmit a Cabinet paper to a member of the market. That having happened, the Government\u2019s obligations were extremely clear. Upon receiving legal advice we knew we had to make the same information available to the whole market\u2014which we did\u2014after the New Zealand market was closed. That was, as has been proven, the appropriate step to take. As other members have said, any reactions in the market place would have been for a wide range of reasons, including the consideration of previous investments by the incumbent and factors such as the economic rents embedded in the market up to that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe public and the sector, on the basis of submissions, have very broadly supported the telecommunications stocktake, the main findings of which were as follows. Historically, New Zealand was, and has been up until now, in the bottom third of OECD countries across a range of telecommunications services and pricing, and about 3 years behind the pack. A factor in our poor broadband performance was the lack of effective competition, and we needed to fix that if we were to get the broadband we needed at prices the public could afford, to facilitate consumers\u2019 demands and our economic growth. I note that Doug Woolerton, in his second reading speech, noted the need to set right what had been wrong in the past, including issues of unfair competition in the sector, and that has been recognised by a range of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Green Party contributed to the debate by pointing out that here was one of those excellent opportunities to do good for the environment, good for our people, and good for the economy, all at the same time. We appreciate that party\u2019s support, and we appreciate the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s support for this bill. That party knows that the bill is good for its people and for other New Zealanders. Its members raised some important issues about mobile, and a process is already under way to address those issues. I think we need to respect the proper institutions that are conducting that process, but my door is open to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EBoth New Zealand First and United Future raised the issue of the important balance that is required between sustaining investment in this sector and creating fair competition for high-speed broadband. This bill is extremely carefully crafted in that regard. It follows the OECD and European Union mainstream approach, called the ladder of investment, that gives a reasonable discount for the entry-level services around the unbundled bitstream through something called retail minus pricing. The bill, going beyond that to local loop unbundling, then gives much deeper discounts through cost-plus or total service long run incremental cost lyric pricing, which means there is a strong incentive for entrants to really enter the market, put in some of their own gear, and invest in their own networks, thereby building stronger and stronger competition as their customer bases get a foothold. That is what has worked internationally, and that is what will work in New Zealand. The early evidence since 3 May is that there have been an increased number of investment inquiries in the sector, increased coverage of new players and new technology in the media, and very strong support for the direction the Government has shown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn the second reading debate the ACT party, the only lonely party to oppose this bill, raised the old saw of property rights. I think this is an opportunity to debunk that approach, once and for all. I commend the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which considered that issue. All parties considered the issue very carefully and in some detail, but ACT said at the end of a long passage in the committee report that it disagreed. Why was that? Well, firstly, I think the ACT party has been a bit disingenuous in saying that this is about old ladies\u2019 pension plans. The fact is that there is a very broad shareholding for the incumbent\u2014but that is not the issue, as most of it resides overseas. The key issue is that regulatory risk is built into the share price of any incumbent telecommunications company anywhere in the world. A telecommunications company has to manage that regulatory risk by not playing too hard in the market to the exclusion of others. That is what Mr Woolerton was referring to when he talked about this bill marking a point of atonement for the past and creating a fair pathway to the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESecondly, shareholdings change hands many times. The shareholding of that company has changed hands many times since it was privatised, and as those transactions occur the risks need to be assessed by willing buyers and willing sellers\u2014and they have been. Clearly, at the time of privatisation the Government\u2019s right to regulate the sector was underlined, and that has not changed. So we have discussed, and I think dealt with, those issues. We have dealt with investment issues going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ESo what happens now? When this bill is implemented, the next stage, as set out in the report from the select committee, will be a process of negotiating undertakings, where Telecom, in consultation with officials, will draft undertakings that will be worked through with the Government, through the Minister. We will end up with an enforceable, binding, robust, three-way operational separation that will require non-discrimination in wholesale markets and fair access to bottleneck and wholesale services. It will also underpin the other pro-competitive disciplines in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThis has been a long and eventful road. The day is a very important day for New Zealand. It is not just about local loop unbundling and it is not just about any separation issues; these are elements of a thoroughgoing raft of reforms that are part of a broader, coherent digital strategy that will bring the benefits of information and communications technologies to all New Zealanders, at the prices New Zealanders can afford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn closing, I pick up on one important set of issues that remains to be further progressed, and that is of importance to many parties here. It concerns rural telecommunications services. This is not the end of the road for the rural sector; it is the starting point for a new wave of analysis and investment in rural services. We have a rural strategy under way now, we are reviewing the telecommunications services obligations, and this Government pledges to ensure that rural New Zealanders will also benefit from the reforms going forward. I commend the Telecommunications Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022b20678e6324940af8f34a2f2757eb822\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b20678e6324940af8f34a2f2757eb822\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E This Telecommunications Amendment Bill that we will pass today is very important legislation. Therefore, we need to be very mindful about its full ramifications and honest about what we hope it will achieve and what it may not achieve. National supports the legislation, despite the fact that the evidence is not all one way on it, because we too hope it will achieve significant benefit for many New Zealanders in improving their access to telecommunications technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut we should acknowledge that the evidence is not all unequivocal. One of New Zealand\u2019s foremost academics working in this area gave a very extensive submission to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. That academic, Bronwyn Howell, from Victoria University, is unquestionably New Zealand\u2019s leading academic in this area. Some people may disagree with her views, but she is certainly one of the leading academics in this area. She made a couple of points to the select committee that I want to make sure are on the record in the House. She pointed out to us that our performance in the past has not been abysmal. She said that evidence showed that New Zealand was in a leadership position in the OECD in terms of Internet uptake and usage over the years from 1996 to 2006. She said that far from New Zealand being the dunce in the class, it was actually leading the OECD in Internet uptake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EShe also pointed out that at a recent conference in Europe where the issues of local loop unbundling were being looked at, most papers showed that local loop unbundling had caused some quite perverse outcomes and results, and often chilling effects on infrastructure investment. She said that European Union data was showing that there was very little impact of unbundling on broadband uptake. I do not think we should necessarily be too troubled by that, but we should note it, because we should not expect this legislation to produce unrealistic outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe very last thing that the Minister himself addressed in his contribution to this third reading debate was the position of this kind of infrastructure on rural New Zealand. I was sad that he did not respond to my question during the Committee stage, because the Institution of Professional Engineers raised this issue with the select committee. I think it would be fair to say that all members of the select committee were quite impressed by the submission of that organisation. Let me make it very clear\u2014members of the organisation supported this legislation. It is not that they were not supporting it, but they made very clear to the select committee that we have to be honest about what it will achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThey pointed out\u2014as I mentioned during the Committee stage\u2014that, in fact, there is a limit to what copper wire can deliver in terms of high-speed Internet access or high-speed broadband access. They pointed out that the maximum distance\u2014technologically\u2014from an exchange where high-speed access can be delivered is 1.8 to 1.9 kilometres. I asked the Minister what the typical local loop length is in New Zealand. Sadly the Minister did not respond to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Institution of Professional Engineers also pointed out to us that if we want really high-speed, such as 5 megabits per second, we needed a copper wire length of no more than 800 metres\u2014that is, under a kilometre. I pointed out that at home I am a good 10 kilometres from my local exchange\u2014and most of rural New Zealand would be that far from their local exchange. I am not that far from local townships; I am not in the backblocks of beyond. I have a State highway going past my front gate. I am only 150 kilometres from the biggest city in New Zealand\u2014Auckland. So there are very serious issues about rural infrastructure, because one of the major parts of our economy\u2014the primary sector of our economy\u2014is increasingly dependent on telecommunications. This is a serious issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhen Telecom representatives were in front of the select committee and were asked about what this would do to the balance of Telecom\u2019s investment, they were pretty honest about it. They said it would see the company probably focusing more investment in the more high dense population areas. This is what my colleague from New Zealand First Doug Woolerton, who was on the select committee, expressed as a concern of his during the Committee stage. He hoped we would not see the major investors like Telecom cherry-picking\u2014to use Mr Woolerton\u2019s term. There is nothing in this legislation to prevent that. In fact, Telecom was sufficiently upfront and honest with the select committee to acknowledge that, probably, there will be a bit of a shift in balance of investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is why I am deeply troubled by the position that rural New Zealand remains in following the passage of this legislation, because we know that the length of copper wire servicing much of rural New Zealand will technologically not deliver high-speed access. Although I am encouraged that the Minister referred to that in the final moments of his third reading address just now, I think the Government needs to make sure the impacts of this legislation are carefully monitored. Although I know that some members disagreed with the evidence of Bronwyn Howell, I think it would be foolish to ignore totally what she said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf members took nothing else from the extensive evidence she put in front of the committee, it would be that there is a need to monitor outcomes because any regulatory legislation like this can produce unexpected outcomes. We know from experience in Europe that some of the outcomes there where local loop unbundling has been put in place have been unexpected and not all as desirable in those countries as those who had been advancing the legislation had hoped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI make it clear that National supports the legislation. We hope\u2014and we expect\u2014that the outcomes from this legislation will be positive for much of New Zealand. But we also have to be honest about what is driving 5-megabit access to the Internet. Much of it is not data handling, much of it is actually entertainment. Much of it is actually the desire to be able to access video on Internet and that is what requires that kind of broadband access.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da2ff740460048fabc6ce3d64672bf7c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Porn! That\u2019s what the farmers want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55197f03d1d481188f9650f68eeeb91\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I hear my colleague Rodney Hide calling out there and we know that one of the countries in the world with the highest broadband uptake per head of population\u2014one that stands out\u2014is South Korea, and we all know what has tended to drive that uptake in South Korea. It is certainly not business; it tends to be entertainment of a particular kind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022573a261803b14349b3c85a44adddf2e0\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What is the member talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022165e616d3e084d0b854fcf107b7ebe96\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Darren\u2019s too young!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221bebd0939594f49b0d24037ce64036d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Rodney Hide says Darren Hughes from Labour is too young to know what is driving some of this Internet access demand. I do not want to waste my time on that kind of debate. All I want to say is that National supports this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe believe that one of the very important requirements that National wanted is in the bill. It has gone into new section 69AAC\u2014in the interpretation of what operational separation means. It was National members of the select committee who got in paragraph (b) that states operational separation \u201Cdoes not include a requirement that any business unit must be operated by different owners:\u201D That removed that sword of Damocles, if you like, from over the head of Telecom\u2014that this legislation is not a forerunner to full structural separation. We must respect the fact that much of the serious kind of investment that we need in telecommunications infrastructure in New Zealand will come from Telecom\u2014our biggest telecommunications company\u2014and it will not be able to deliver that for us if that threat lies over its head. I am pleased that that bottom line was put in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think the balance of legislation is sensible, but National remains troubled about the position rural telecommunications infrastructure remains in, because all the indications tend to be that this legislation will result in greater focus in the higher populated areas, not our rural areas that are so important to our economy. I hope the Government takes on board the need to monitor the outcomes of this legislation. National will be voting for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d309bb5bc63d44ff98c2cd98c80c0390\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d309bb5bc63d44ff98c2cd98c80c0390\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will be supporting the Telecommunications Amendment Bill and enthusiastically so. But I think it is important to point out the failures that have led to the need for this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cfacbc03bc54152a6145cc07bfd77a6\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Show some enthusiasm, Doug.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270545f25cca8458ead6be6bbbabe934c\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: I reassure Rodney Hide that I am highly excited at this point. This is about as excited as I get. So, leading up to Christmas, members had better take a good look because it will have to last a couple of months. If I get any more excited than this, I will not be responsible for the consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EHowever, in speaking to this bill, I say that this legislation is necessary because of a failure, and that is sad. New Zealand First has said on many, many occasions, and made issue of the fact, that we should not be selling our major infrastructure in New Zealand\u2014and we have sold it. In this bill, yet again, we are having to address an issue where the market has not delivered what it should have. To me, that is sad. I think it is unfortunate that Telecom has not reacted to its customers in a proper manner. It has not kept up with technology, it has not delivered what its customers were expecting, it has not delivered what the Government of this country was expecting, and this legislation has become necessary because of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIn fact, when it was first announced that the Government was to become involved in this issue, a man called Rod Deane, who was the chairman of Telecom at the time, announced that he would resign forthwith because he would not have anybody messing around with his company. Oh dear! I am so sad and sorry about that because that man, more than any other, is responsible for this legislation. He focused on one thing and one thing only\u2014that is, a return to his shareholders and, dare I say it, to himself. This company is not known for low salaries. This company is not known for diligence as far as the customer is concerned. I hope, and I believe, that with a new chairman at the top of this company, we will have a company that is responsive to the market, to what we in New Zealand expect out of a telecommunications company, and to best world practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day there are no surprises in what has been done to Telecom. I suspect\u2014and the sharemarket shows that this is true\u2014that, in fact, the market was expecting far more to be done to Telecom than has been done, because the market has gone up since these changes have been announced. These changes were based broadly on the British Telecom model. They were based broadly on changes that had happened in England. The Minister and his team have brought them to the House and put them before us for consideration, so we have not been dealing with an unknown quantity here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe previous operators of Telecom could have put these changes in place in their own time frame and at their own speed, and they could have had them up and running today. In fact, one of the requests from Telecom to us was that we did not insist on expecting too much of what it calls its legacy platform, or legacy services, because the company will have to renew just about all of its technology throughout the country to deliver on the issues required by this legislation. If the previous chairman had been insistent on a free-market model that was actually delivering to the public, that renewal would have been done progressively out of profits and retained earnings as the years went by. So I say that this company previously has not been run as it should have been\u2014never mind the customers; it has not been run in a responsible manner in order to take care of reinvestment in the sort of technology this legislation requires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWithout question, Telecom should be New Zealand\u2019s leading technology company. It is the wish of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and I know that it is the wish of the officials and the Minister, that it will be so. But, sadly, it has taken this Parliament to drag this company, yelling and screaming, into the 21st century, and that is sad. It was not until we had a closed-door session with the chairman of the company\u2014to whom I give credit; I have named him several times now and I do so again\u2014and said that he had better engage in this process or otherwise the Government would do it for him. And we had a resolution very quickly after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI commend the chairman for that, because he saw what his predecessor and the executives of that company had not seen previously\u2014that the Government had the resolve to make changes because it would not put up with a second-rate telecommunications industry in New Zealand. As has been mentioned by other speakers, with our isolation from markets and our absolute need to communicate with them on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis, telecommunications are essential. We have to be not just as good as the rest of the world but above and beyond the standard of the rest of the world. This company should be\u2014and I hope will be\u2014a company with best world practice; a model of excellence. As I believe in a collaborative spirit, that is the hope I personally have, and that is the hope the select committee has. I know the Minister has that view, and this was the mood in which this legislation was debated in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI must say that in view of what the public has seen in the newspapers in regard to this Parliament and some contentious issues that have flowed from it, I wish that the public could have seen the collaborative efforts that went on in the select committee over this legislation\u2014and I know that the same is true for other select committees. It has been a collaborative issue, from the people in the select committee right through to the Minister and officials, and it has been a lesson indeed. I think the outcome will be excellent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0c66b6f188943a39ebbdbb00640c0ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0c66b6f188943a39ebbdbb00640c0ce\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak just briefly to say how delighted the Green Party is at the passage of this Telecommunications Amendment Bill, because I have not been working on it in the Finance and Expenditure Committee. But our only regret is that it has taken us so long to get to this point. I cannot resist mentioning that when we were considering the original telecommunications legislation, which established the Telecommunications Commissioner\u2014I think in about 2002\u2014the Green Party campaigned and, indeed, introduced amendments to this House to unbundle the local loop, but we had absolutely no support from any other party in this House. So it is great to see that now everybody else has caught up with the Greens, and that everyone\u2014[Interruption]\u2014except for Rodney Hide and the ACT party\u2014is now supporting what we were advocating and campaigning for, years and years ago. It just shows that once again the Greens are at the forefront, and that we come up with ideas that at the time are dismissed as being radical but a few years later are accepted as being absolute necessity and common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe pointed out then that New Zealand along with, I think, Mexico were about the only two countries in the OECD that had not unbundled the local loop. We pointed out that telecommunications are so utterly vital. They are the new highway in the 21st century; I think they are what railways were to the 20th century. But, particularly for New Zealand, with this technology we can transcend our geographical isolation, and so forth. We need to be right at the forefront, at the leading edge, of this technology, and it is incredible that we have allowed a telecommunications monopoly\u2014namely, Telecom\u2014to hold us back for so long. Telecommunications are a key strategic asset in New Zealand that is so vital for our economy, so why did we sit around and allow Telecom, which inherited a monopoly in telecommunications, to exploit that monopoly, to hold back other businesses, to hold back on innovation, and to do everything in its power over many years to retain that monopoly? Instead, as the previous speaker said, the company could have been at the forefront, and it could have embraced change and innovation so that it did not get us to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe Greens really want to give our support to this bill, and also underline the fact that telecommunications are vital in terms of their delivery of environmental benefits. If we finally do start telecommuting on a larger scale, we will not need to build new motorways. Telecommunications have huge benefits in terms of the environmental perspective, as well as in terms of enabling New Zealand to be competitive in the international world. At long last Parliament has caught up with what the Greens have been campaigning for, for about 6 years. We are absolutely delighted to support this bill, and our only regret is that it has taken us so long to get to this point. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcb73b21823d45f89ce4e3bf7fd304e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcb73b21823d45f89ce4e3bf7fd304e4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I do not want to rehash what we covered earlier, but I have to say that one of the things that must concern us as a Parliament is that we know that one regulation invariably means more regulations. I heard Dr Lockwood Smith say that this bill has removed the sword of Damocles from hanging over Telecom, when in fact after listening to that member and to Mr Doug Woolerton, and after watching the Minister assent to their comments, I believe that the sword has been put there again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhy do I say that? I say that because the first concern raised by Mr Doug Woolerton was about cherry-picking. This is the idea\u2014Heaven forbid\u2014that companies and investors would put their money where they could get a return! Is that not what we expect companies to do? Is that not how we expect them to manage their resources? No, that now becomes, in the language of this Parliament, cherry-picking! Mr Woolerton wants to say that companies should invest their money where the costs are so high that they cannot get a return. Because he lives, like Dr Lockwood Smith, in a beautiful part of New Zealand down 10 kilometres of copper wire, he says everyone else should have to pay for him to have the access that people can get in downtown Auckland. Mr Woolerton says that Telecom should carry that cost, so should the users and shareholders, or otherwise it is cherry-picking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E I was stunned to hear Dr Lockwood Smith of the National Party concur with that\u2014that somehow this Parliament is going to force people to put their investments in that other place. I watched the Minister nod when Dr Lockwood Smith said National would be monitoring the outcomes of this legislation, and I asked myself what we will do if the outcome is not what we expect it to be\u2014which will surely be the case. What will we do if the outcome is less than we expect? It will surely be that. And what will we as a Parliament do if Dr Lockwood Smith cannot download where he lives, on his beautiful farm, at 5 megabytes a second for his entertainment needs? What will we do then? Well, I suspect that in a couple of years\u2019 time we will be back here beating up Telecom again for not doing what Parliament expects it to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI say to members in this House that we are making a terrible mistake when we try to regulate for outcomes, when we split up a company, and when we pinch its property rights, because that is what unbundling is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI have a lot of respect for Mr Doug Woolerton. I know he has spent a lot of time milking cows and contributing to this country, and I know how excited he was when speaking to this bill. I have never seen him as animated as he was then. In fact, I wanted to give him some pills to calm him down, because I thought that in his advanced years as a member of New Zealand First he might not be able to access a senior card to the full extent of his entitlement. Mr Woolerton was excited beyond all belief and then went on to make some extraordinary statements. I think, in his excitement, he became carried away with his rhetoric. He suggested that somehow Telecom had not invested enough, that somehow it had not done enough in the way of technical advance, and that somehow it was not running its business right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI do not know the basis on which Mr Woolerton made those claims. It must be on the basis of his great achievements while working in the telecommunications industry and at the top level of business and merchant banking in New Zealand, which we are yet to hear about. But does Mr Woolerton seriously think that if we had left the New Zealand Post Office to run our telecommunications as a monopoly\u2014and Doug Woolerton would have opposed the sale and deregulation of it\u2014we would have Internet use in New Zealand? It would have banned it! The New Zealand Post Office did not want to have fax machines, because of what they would do to telegrams. I say to Mr Woolerton that the benefits he enjoys today are the result of efficient business, of investment, of deregulation, and of\u2014[Interruption] Whose money did Vodafone use to put in its network? I ask him where that came from. It is not as though the New Zealand Post Office would ever have built a mobile phone network for us to use. My goodness! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo I say to this House that we should oppose this bill. It is a pinching of property rights. It is this Parliament trying to run business. It will be counterproductive for investment in New Zealand and for telecommunications. I am proud to be in the ACT party, and, as I look around the House, I invite others to join with us and vote for property rights, for private contracts, and for free enterprise. I advise them not to join the National Party and vote for communism, which is what is happening here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022dac9b54c2efe43349e2dc0ca118ae00e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dac9b54c2efe43349e2dc0ca118ae00e\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very short call as chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee and after having been humoured at the end of the year by Mr Hide, who, I must say, although we have not seen a great deal of him, every time he does turn up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271da6ec2112741f391d989ebb27bf2ca\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot refer to the absence of another member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5d30e0be3d844d0bbf01188ef58d5d1\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw that remark. Mr Hide\u2019s presence in our committee has been felt as we studied the media to see where he has actually been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn terms of the bill, there is one thing that was not said and that I need to put on the record, and it is about two former Ministers, Mr Swain and Mr Williamson. Whether Mr Williamson went through some sort of biblical conversion experience, I do not know, but he proved to be potentially the strongest advocate for moving towards a better balance between investment and competition, and obviously, for Mr Swain, was a tower of strength in developing this bill. Whatever misgivings he felt about earlier episodes in his career, they were expunged with the passage of this bill. So both of them ought to enjoy a passing mention so that their names and their deeds are etched into the parliamentary record. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e200016e00c49fea40e7699ba462721\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Telecommunications Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022842779a8f89f4db2a0f04db9372c7738\u0022\u003EWeathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2d424c45ada4288a0c7649c70bd2527\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00226b454573a3c548ba97cf74a262244f61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b454573a3c548ba97cf74a262244f61\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill be now read a second time. Firstly, I thank the Social Services Committee, especially its chair, my colleague Georgina Beyer, for the thorough work that she and the committee have undertaken in respect of this bill and for enabling the bill to be reported back to the House before Christmas. I also thank the submitters for their valuable input and feedback on the bill. I take this opportunity to remind the House briefly of how this bill came about and of what it contains, and to summarise the select committee\u2019s recommended amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe bill improves the effectiveness and efficiency of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service through reform. It is essential to the Government\u2019s commitment to provide a speedier, low-cost alternative to the court system for resolving leaky building claims. The Weathertight Homes Resolution Service was set up in 2002 as a call to arms by the Government to deal with a major problem in our communities. This problem was not caused by any one factor; rather, it was a systemic problem caused by a large number of factors but primarily, and in large part historically, by the deregulation of the 1990s, which let the cowboys into the system and allowed them to run amuck within the building industry. In August 2005 a major review of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service was undertaken, which found the service wanting in several areas and the process being unnecessarily drawn out by lawyers and other experts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe bill will help the owners of leaky homes to settle their disputes faster, hold those responsible\u2014that is, the liable parties\u2014to account, and get compensation from those liable parties to fix leaky homes faster. It will also enhance consumer protection for homebuyers. In developing these changes, we consulted widely with organisations, including the Leaky Homes Action Group and the Consumers Institute of New Zealand, as well as building industry organisations and local government. Their collective input, I have to say, was invaluable in developing the policy that underpins this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs I have said, the bill aims to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of each stage within the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service\u2019s process. The reforms include allowing claimants to claim for potential as well as actual damage, more comprehensive assessment reports that can become expert evidence, thereby cutting down legal costs substantially for claimants, and faster resolution of disputes through the introduction of compulsory pre-hearing conferencing for standard claims before claims move to time-limited mediation, plus the fast-tracking of low-value claims. The bill sets the objectives for a less adversarial, more investigative, and swifter adjudication process. The bill introduces new offence provisions, with fines attached to behaviours such as failure to comply with an adjudicator\u2019s order or summons. That will help adjudicators to get on with the job. The bill also seeks to make the adjudication function independent of the Department of Building and Housing. The Ministry of Justice will be responsible for establishing and administering the new Weathertight Homes Tribunal. These measures will enhance consumer and respondent confidence in the adjudication service, improve acceptance of the authority of the adjudicators, and provide more institutional support for the adjudicators themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe bill removes the obstacles encountered by bodies corporate that wish to bring claims for multi-unit apartment complexes, by setting voting thresholds that are not unanimous, so that the so-called hold-out situations are less likely to occur. That is especially important given that around 70 percent of claimants with the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service are unit title apartment owners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis legislation was introduced to Parliament on 23 August this year and received its first reading on 31 August. The House set a shortened report-back date for the select committee. The committee has met that deadline, and I am grateful for that. I thank members for their effort. The goal of having this bill passed before the end of the year and the reforms in place by April next year was ambitious, but with the support of the committee and this House today, I believe we will get there. Submissions made on the bill represented individuals, consumer groups, insurers, the industry, and organisations that represented many individuals. All of the submitters who asked to be heard by the committee were heard, and there was general support for the majority of changes the bill proposes. There was unanimous support from the select committee for the bill as a whole. However, I will come to some points later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EOne change made by the committee was to extend the land information memorandum\u2014or \u201CLIM\u201D\u2014notifications to existing claims. The committee sought to extend consumer protection by including existing claims\u2014not just those claims made after 1 April 2007, as was originally proposed\u2014on the land information memorandum reports. The committee also agreed that the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service will send a notice when a claim is brought, instead of after it has been decided it is eligible. That is the best way to ensure people do not withdraw from the claim process and onsell their property, without disclosure, to unsuspecting buyers. The bill reflects and enhances current practice by territorial authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EOther changes include a provision that where a claim is determined to be ineligible under one provision, claimants can withdraw and bring back the claim under the correct provision, provided it is submitted within 1 year. That will help claimants who are close to the 10-year limit for filing claims with the resolution service. Other changes include enabling the Chief Executive of the Department of Building and Housing to access information about mediation settlements for research and evaluation purposes; appointing a registrar for the new Weathertight Homes Tribunal; allowing settlements made by the resolution service to be enforced in the District Court; appointing additional adjudicators to complete any claims remaining under the previous system; and amending the commencement date to 1 May 2007, or earlier, by Order in Council. I have to say that is a backstop provision. The Government intends to meet its commitment to claimants that the enhancements to the resolution service will be implemented by 1 April 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESome additional issues, which were not part of the bill, came up during the select committee consideration and were considered carefully. The committee decided unanimously that the 10-year limitation period, which applies right across the building sector, will remain in place. It decided, by majority, that legal costs should not be able to be claimed under the resolution service dispute resolution process. The committee took on board the comments made by submitters that it should make the bill more accessible in terms of using plain English and grouping related provisions together. To that end, the committee therefore decided that a new bill was needed, incorporating the amendment bill into an integrated new bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Government agrees with all the recommendations of the select committee. The Government is also putting forward Supplementary Order Paper 83, which deals with technical amendments to the new bill to improve its readability, correct minor errors, and ensure provisions are consistent across the various types of claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ETo conclude, the bill as reported back proposes, in my view, a large number of positive changes. Not only will the legislation improve the speed and efficiency with which weathertight homes claims can be dealt with, it will also reduce evidential and legal costs for claimants and respondents, reduce bureaucracy, and be fairer for both claimants and respondents. I again thank the select committee and my colleague Georgina Beyer, the chair of the committee, for the cooperation they showed to ensure the bill met the report-back deadline. With the indulgence of the House we can have it passed today, and thus enacted before Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfa58638013c411e82a3a314ba288209\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfa58638013c411e82a3a314ba288209\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This bill does contain some small and useful improvements in the process for settling leaky home claims, but if members believe that this is the solution to this billion dollar - plus problem, they are kidding themselves. I want to recite for this House the appalling record of the Government in dealing with this problem, which is so adversely affecting the life and the biggest investment of thousands and thousands of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet us first front up on the issue of just how much the Social Services Committee has changed the bill. Whereas the Minister introduced a bill of 42 clauses, the select committee is proposing, as stated in the commentary on the bill, that it would be better to omit clauses 3 to 39. In fact, the only clause proposed by the Minister to have survived select committee scrutiny is the title clause. That is failure by anybody\u2019s standards, but I am not surprised. If we recite back to the end of 2002, this Government, in a knee-jerk reaction, rushed through legislation passing the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Act. That legislation never went to a select committee. It was before the House for only 2 weeks, and here we are again, 4 years later, under urgency in Parliament, ramming through legislation to fix this problem. I say to the Minister, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove: \u201CYou have learnt nothing.\u201D We know that the first Act was a failure; his bill as much as admits that. So why would he, a second time round, under urgency, attempt to try to come up with another solution and rush it through? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet us just look at the record of the Government\u2019s Weathertight Homes Resolution Service. To date, in the last 4 years, there have been 3,800 claims. Since Clayton Cosgrove has been the Minister, 184 claims have been settled and there have been 437 new claims. I tell the Minister he is going backwards. Over twice as many new claims have been lodged since he has been the Minister, compared with the claims that have been settled. But the real scandal is this: the average settlement has been just $68,000 for the homeowner to try to fix the leaky home. For each of those settlements the Government has spent $96,000 on bureaucracy, on reports, and on the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service. I say to members of this House that it would have been better to send a straight cheque of $96,000 for each of the claimants than it would be to fund the bureaucracy and the failure of this particular agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we have this ridiculous game of \u201Cpass the hot potato\u201D, within the Government. We have had seven Ministers in 7 years in respect of this problem of leaky homes. We had Mark Burton. He passed the problem to George Hawkins. George Hawkins passed the problem to Lianne Dalziel. Lianne Dalziel passed the problem to Margaret Wilson. Margaret Wilson passed the problem to John Tamihere. John Tamihere passed the problem to Chris Carter. And Chris Carter has now passed the problem to Clayton Cosgrove. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E Can anybody in the Government, and particularly the Prime Minister who is responsible for allocating portfolios, tell me how it helps any of these desperate homeowners to have this problem passed from Minister to Minister? But the Government has not stopped even there. The problem has passed not only from Minister to Minister but from department to department. The problem started off as being the responsibility of the Department of Internal Affairs. Then the Government decided that, no, it should not be there, that this problem should be with the Department of Building and Housing. Now the Minister is telling us that the Government is going to pass it on to the Ministry of Justice. Well, I have to tell the Minister that homeowners have had a gutsful of this problem being passed from one to another without solutions, and doing so again will not make any material difference. Then we have, not surprisingly given Clayton\u2019s previous job as a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8205264fc4443a18422cedf07a93c0b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member must use the Minister\u2019s full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a8a71182bec4134901ca622b6a012a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014given Clayton Cosgrove\u2019s previous job as a spin doctor, the new answer that we are not going to call it a Weathertight Homes Resolution Service any more; it will be the Weathertight Homes Tribunal. Well now, that will solve the problem, will it not? Let us change the name. I tell the Minister that this is an organisation that has been in place for only 4 years, and all he is doing is changing the name, changing the Minister, changing the department, and not providing real solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI will quote for the House from Local Government New Zealand, because in its submission it really does sum up the failure of this bill: \u201Cthe Bill focuses on process and does not address the legal issues at the end of the claims process around getting the homes repaired. We strongly recommend that consideration be given to the most efficient use of the government\u2019s investment in weathertightness issues to achieve the objective of actually getting the leaky homes fixed. We do not believe that the current proposals effectively achieve this fundamental objective.\u201D Here we have New Zealand\u2019s 85 local authorities saying that this bill fails because it will not get the homes fixed, and in that respect they are absolutely right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet us just highlight the latest figures from the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service. I remind the House that this is an agency that this Parliament and taxpayers have provided $17 million a year for. The question I ask is whether we have got $17 million worth of value. The figures have been released. Does the Minister know how many cases have been settled in the last month? We know that there are over 3,000. In the last month nine answers have been provided. If one works out the $17 million a year, that is about $1.5 million a month. So for $1.5 million the Minister has settled nine claims in the last month. That is over $150,000 per case. It is even worse than the record of his predecessor, Chris Carter, when it was costing $100,000 to settle each claim. That is the extent of the failure we have with this bill and with the service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAll the submissions to the Social Services Committee, whether from the Leaky Homes Action Group, Local Government New Zealand, the Registered Master Builders Federation of New Zealand, or the Certified Builders Association\u2014I could go on and on\u2014asked the Government about providing a mechanism that will get the houses fixed, and we have had no answers from the Minister. National, for instance, is sympathetic to the leaky-home owners who actually think that legal costs should be able to be reasonably claimed. I have heard of cases that have been adjudicated with 18 lawyers in the room, representing the developer, representing the builder, representing the architect, representing all the building professionals, representing the insurance companies, and representing Local Government New Zealand. Government members expect, with 18 lawyers in the adjudication hearing, the homeowners to be able to win the argument all by themselves. Well, they are in fairyland. They are on the wrong planet. They are not on the side of those Kiwi-battler New Zealanders who have these leaky homes and need genuine help to get fair and just solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI challenge any member of the Government to explain to this House how any average homeowner is meant to get justice out of a process when lined up against 18 lawyers who are well funded by local government and huge insurance companies. It is simply unrealistic and is not the way forward. We also think there is a real argument to be had around limitation. The reality is that a home is built for 50 years, and to limit the time when the claims can be made is not going to see a fair solution to this. This bill is an indictment on the Government\u2019s resolution service set up in the 2002 Act. It contains a few useful provisions. It is not an answer and, sadly, I can tell the Minister that the House will be debating further changes within a year or two because this bill does not provide the mechanism to fix the homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u0022128d5782c47347f193f9f741b1f06163\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022128d5782c47347f193f9f741b1f06163\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is a privilege to rise at the second reading of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill. As chair of the Social Services Committee, may I acknowledge the general cooperation from all of the committee, frankly, to process this bill speedily. I particularly thank the officials from the Ministry of Justice, the Department of Building and Housing, and the Parliamentary Counsel Office for the intense amount of work they had to do in a relatively short time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EThe committee received the bill on 31 August and the closing date for submissions was 6 October. We received and considered 27 submissions from interested groups and individuals, and we heard 23 of those submissions. There was great sympathy as we heard the submissions, particularly those from people who were direct victims of the leaky home problem. The committee was very resolute in its decision to process this bill as quickly and expediently as possible but not by doing a once-over lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EIt was also an advantage to have on the committee a member, in the form of Paula Bennett, who had actual experience of the leaky home problem. To Ms Bennett\u2019s credit she declared that possible conflict of interest, but it turned out to be helpful to have someone who had that experience, and she brought to bear that particular perspective without it prejudicing in any particular way the committee\u2019s decision. So that was helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EThe member who has just resumed his seat waxed lyrical\u2014it was a typical filibuster speech from Nick Smith\u2014and highlighted all the problems and issues the Opposition wished to debate, but he gave not one idea as a solution. Perhaps we may be enlightened further on. The basis of what has happened occurred over the 1990s, in particular, and up to recent times. This Government has indeed progressed the issue, no matter what feelings of derision the Opposition may have about slowness. The Opposition may say it is not enough\u2014it is never enough\u2014but it is more than we had before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EOne of the important aspects decided by the committee was simply that the bill would supersede the principal Act. The bill as it has been returned to the House will now become the primary Act, as opposed to an amendment to the primary Act. That is quite major, and a lot of work had be done by various officials and the Parliamentary Counsel Office, in particular, to get that rewrite\u2014for want of a better term\u2014completed so that we could process the bill as quickly as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EThe committee gave an undertaking to submitters, particularly in the final hearing but generally to all, that we would report this bill back by 4 December. Indeed, we happened to report it back a week earlier than that. That, I hope, highlights the commitment the committee had to seeing it happen. All that is left now is to hope that the bill will proceed expeditiously through its Committee stage and third reading, and be completed by the end of today\u2019s session. With that, I thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdbd3c3d7a1f4ac1a84fe832c18c7b35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdbd3c3d7a1f4ac1a84fe832c18c7b35\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party continues to support the passage of this Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill as it progresses through its final stages in the House today. Although submitters to the Social Services Committee were, on the whole, quite critical of the inadequacies of this and previous relevant legislation, at the same time there was an overwhelming indication that it is better that the Government do anything it can to improve, streamline, and speed up dispute resolution processes on this issue, rather than just leave things as they are. Some of the submissions were quite harrowing, coming from people who had lost everything or almost everything through ending up stuck with an expensive home that had lost almost all of its value, and without recourse to anything like the amount of compensation\u2014if any at all\u2014necessary to fix their problems. I think every member of the select committee, no matter what political party he or she came from, felt tremendous sympathy for such people, of whom of course those speaking to us represented just a tiny fraction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOver and over I thought back to what it was like in Auckland in the 1990s, and reflected on those massive developments that we saw going up all around us at the time. I will never profess to being an expert on building materials or construction issues, but even so I remember how at the time I was totally suspicious about the nature of so much of what was being built. So many of those new housing developments looked inadequate and shonky, and ill-suited to the wet reality of Auckland\u2019s weather. They were real disasters waiting to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe heard a lot about culpability and blame during the select committee process, and I certainly do not think it can be sheeted home in any one place. Overall it seems, in retrospect, that a big part of this sector in the 1990s was blighted by a blindness to the reality of what construction types and materials work in our climate, and by a drive to profit at any cost in the excitement of a newly deregulated market place. In 2002 the Hunn report named this as a major systemic breakdown across the whole building industry. After hearing the submissions on this bill and the desperation of so many homeowners and local authorities caught out by what has happened, I can only agree. Instead of using the tremendous growth in building developments in the 1990s as an opportunity to learn and put into practice sustainable building techniques for the future, the opposite happened, with results that affected and desperate homeowners are still having to live with today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWithin this context the bill before the House this morning is welcome, with its focus on improving the system for resolving leaky building claims submitted to the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service. The Green Party supports the substance of what is being achieved here, including the goals of reducing the time it takes for claims to be resolved, thereby cutting the costs for homeowners in taking claims; encouraging the resolution of disputes through early negotiation between parties as much as possible\u2014especially for lower value claims\u2014and removing some existing barriers to the registration of claims and resolution of disputes by owners of units within multi-unit apartment complexes. We believe that it is critical that the existing resolution service processes are improved, so that in the end people\u2019s homes can be repaired more quickly and the associated trauma brought to an end with as much speed and as much support for the homeowners as is practicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI know that this bill is not perfect, but I think it is incumbent upon the Government to do what it can. A huge range of complex issues were brought out by this bill, and the select committee process was notable for me in being the first time I had seen the situation arise where an amendment to a principal bill was so complex and confused that in the end counsel had to redraft and amalgamate the whole bill into a new Act. On top of that, a number of amendments were made during the select committee process in response to submitters and to the committee\u2019s consideration of the bill, and even further amendments have since been put up by the Minister for Building and Construction, to be dealt with by way of a Supplementary Order Paper today. Some of these changes, which we support, include the extension of land information memorandum notifications to existing active claims already in the system, a requirement for claimants who bring a new claim under different eligibility criteria to do so within 1 year, which provides certainty as well as allowing claimants to extend the period within which they can bring a case, and the provision of clarifying clauses and a useful diagram in schedule 2 to help make the process clearer for all concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhen I originally spoke on this bill I was, like many submitters, concerned about the 10-year limitation period, which means that any leaky building claim must be brought within 10 years of the home being built or altered. However, after learning more about this issue during the select committee process, I have come to understand and accept that for the most part there are good reasons for this limitation, including the fact that it is very hard to determine liability after 10 years, that it is difficult, if not impossible, to collect adequate evidence after such a long time, and that it is a provision that already applies to other claims in respect of building work. On top of that, we were told that research and the Hunn report itself show that if there is a problem with a home, it should be showing signs of it well within the 10-year time frame, and that it is actually better for all concerned if people make their claims as soon as the problem appears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAnother big issue for claimants, for which I have a lot of sympathy, is legal costs. It has been, and continues to be, almost unreasonably expensive for people, even comparatively well-off people, to take claims when legal counsel are involved and are up against lawyers representing every other party. My hope is that the simplification and speeding up of processes implemented by this bill will help to reduce those costs markedly, if not altogether\u2014the latter particularly in respect of lower value claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOne suggestion from submitters in which I was particularly interested was the concept of setting up a special court for building issues, as exists in the UK. I could see a lot of merit in this suggestion, not only for dealing with the ongoing leaky homes crisis but for acting in future as a specialist building disputes service within the court system overall. Although the select committee did not see fit, or feel able, to support that proposal at this juncture and decided to leave the service as a weathertight homes - specific disputes tribunal, I am keen to learn more about this concept of a building court and to work with parliamentary colleagues and people involved in this sector towards a possibility of implementing such a court in future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, like the committee chair, Georgina Beyer, I thank all those who have worked on this complex bill, including my fellow select committee members, and particularly the officials, who put in an enormous amount of work under considerable pressure of time. Above all, I would also like to thank the submitters from all backgrounds who took the time to put together often very useful and detailed input to this legislation, and to express on behalf of the Green Party my sincere hope that the passing of this bill will lead to the achievement of its goals as soon as possible, for the sake of everyone concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00221eacafafc09c4552b87cca680bbf645b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eacafafc09c4552b87cca680bbf645b\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. Kia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa. A couple of years ago a Labour Minister Dover Samuels spoke out about the lack of progress in addressing housing in Northland, Eastern Bay of Plenty, and on the East Coast. I absolutely agree with that member. His comments came following the tragic blaze at Herekino, which claimed the lives of three children. The comments sat in the context of local general practitioners telling of cases where infections such as meningococcal disease were being spread because of sub-standard housing. This was a time when people were living with no flushing toilets, no bathrooms, and no septic tanks. In some homes, toilet waste was being poured straight into the ground, inviting hepatitis A. His comments were based on Labour\u2019s promise to fix 2,500 houses, but over a year later, work had started on only about 250. This was, and still remains today, the situation for too many M\u0101ori families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI know how real these issues are throughout my electorate of Waiariki. Indeed, just last month I visited R\u016B\u0101toki. I visited houses in poor condition, reflecting low-quality workmanship. Many of them were rotten and leaking. When one house was removed last month it was evident that raw sewage remained. The houses are in a state of disrepair. They have been described as polyurethane Weet-Bix. These are not isolated cases. I am also aware that the community of Waitahanui in Taup\u014D, located in papak\u0101inga housing, has suffered much the same plight as the result of housing being planted on swampland, and the impacts of the low water-table. I know of one family forced to live in their sitting room, due to the mould and the damp in the other rooms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhat does this have to do with the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service? Everything, and nothing. The Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill has everything to do with addressing the leaky buildings crisis. It has everything to do with considering the wider scope of claims for weathertight deficiencies\u2014deficiencies that cause real damage, but as yet there have not been leaks. Sadly, it has nothing to do with the deficiencies and damage that are still very much a part of the lot of those involved in the M\u0101ori housing story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E For evidence of that, one need only turn to a report released in August of this year from Charles Waldegrave, Peter King, Tangihaere Walker, and Eljon Fitzgerald. This was a joint collaboration between the Family Centre and Massey University. The report, M\u0101ori Housing Experiences: Emerging Trends and Issues, outlines in some 218 pages the following conclusions: \u201CHomeownership rates for M\u0101ori are lower than for the general population and have been falling since the 1950s \u2026 Overcrowding, substandard housing causing health risks and inadequate heating have been identified as issues in need of attention for M\u0101ori. Economic conditions and family structure have affected the ability of households to afford adequate accommodation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI come to this bill aware of Standing Order 107 and the need for all debate to be relevant to the question before the House, and I ask this House how any member could possibly ignore the realities of lower-grade housing for M\u0101ori when we are considering a raft of proposals to enhance the assessment and resolution of leaky building claims for other New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ELet me be quite clear: the M\u0101ori Party supports absolutely the objectives of this bill to ensure that departments responsible for administering the legislation will be helpful to claimants. We believe that the public service is honour-bound to provide a service to the public that is efficient, respectful, and responsive. We welcome the specificity of providing guidance and assistance to claimants to help them to understand their assessment reports and to be aware of the advantages of early negotiation, and to make the process faster and less costly. Surely, these are the hallmarks of a transparent and accountable public service\u2014that every effort is made to improve processes and to enhance case management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe are also pleased that the bill actually tries to do something about the recommendations from the 2002 Hunn report and the 2003 Government Administration Committee inquiry. The Hunn report identified the factors that contributed to leaky buildings, and issued 25 recommendations to address the systemic failures within the building industry. The Government Administration Committee inquiry resulted in some 63 recommendations, notably the significance of the development of consumer protection measures. So all up, 88 recommendations later, we have a substantial body of evidence about the need for speedy, flexible, and cost-effective procedures for the assessment and resolution of claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWho could possibly argue with initiatives that try to improve protection for customers, such as is envisaged by placing notices of Weathertight Homes Resolution Service claims on land information memorandum reports, or the fact that the service will provide free assessments to determine the extent of water damage to affected homes, and will provide access to mediation and adjudication services to help resolve disputes? Certainly not the M\u0101ori Party, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe support the establishment of a new Weathertight Homes Tribunal to provide strengthened adjudication services for consumers, and we support the intention for the model of dispute resolution to be based on a more investigative approach. We believe that the proposals seem comprehensive and will do much to clean up the deregulation of the building industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut I return to the concerns raised by Mr Samuels\u2014the report I outlined earlier. To put the call\u2014when will one standard of law also apply in the case of M\u0101ori housing? The study of housing experiences I referred to earlier builds on four crucial elements: literature review; analysis of census data; analysis of data from the Te Hoe Nuku Roa, a longitudinal study of M\u0101ori households; and qualitative field study. The qualitative sample included six regions, involving 70 people and eight focus groups. It was a very strong source of support to provide a basis on which to develop housing options for M\u0101ori from now on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe question we would ask is how this Government can justify spending $76 million on the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service since 2002, yet turn a blind eye to the fact that New Zealanders are squatting in shacks and caravans, that families are squeezed into pensioner flats, and that there are over 2,250 run-down homes on the sub-standard list. The M\u0101ori Party housing policy makes an explicit commitment to ensuring that M\u0101ori housing experiences and realities are adequately researched and addressed. The study I have referred to in the House makes a significant contribution, we think, towards this goal. We believe that we must engage and encourage M\u0101ori participation in order to produce enduring housing solutions. We support the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill, but we also place on record the urgent and ongoing need to make sure that the issues associated with M\u0101ori housing are given the due and serious consideration that they deserve. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00226057b1e03a8c46358cff5adaad3f270a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226057b1e03a8c46358cff5adaad3f270a\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to stand and speak on this Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill. I am the person whom the chairperson of the Social Services Committee was talking about earlier who actually has a leaky home. I start by acknowledging that and by saying that we have chosen not to use the service because the building is a multi-unit. We are taking the matter to the High Court, because we felt that the service was not capable of addressing our needs, and we certainly still feel that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EUnlike the Minister, I would like to do more than just pay lip-service to the submitters and the thousands of people out there who came to us with personal stories and who stop us in the street to talk about the effect this issue has had on their lives. They are truly the blameless victims. In many cases they have invested everything they had to try to have a home that they could live in and pay their mortgages on. They went forth in all good conscience to do the right Kiwi thing, and now find themselves in financial ruin and absolute emotional distress. They deserve to be acknowledged, and acknowledged properly by this House\u2014not by the tinkering that is currently being done with this bill. This bill does not work for anyone, and we have heard that time and time again. It does not work for the councils and ratepayers, it does not work for the builders, it does not work for those who sell building products and who have got it wrong there, and it most certainly does not work for those homeowners who find themselves in this predicament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELike my colleague Dr Nick Smith, I was appalled when I looked up the numbers yesterday and found that, to date, only 7.6 percent of claims have been resolved. I stand here and, as politicians, I feel that the few changes that are being made are being done just so that Government members can stand up and say that they are actually doing something. In particular, the Minister can now walk around and say that the Government has tried to fix the issue by trying to speed up the process and trying to make it more efficient. The words that kept springing to mind when I was listening to Sue Bradford give her speech were \u201CI hope\u201D, and I also heard from the M\u0101ori Party \u201CWe hope\u201D. We hope that this bill does something for the homeowners, but we do not have faith that this measure is what is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EIt is the sort of thing we have just so that a politician like the Minister can sit there and feel better. People may have seen him on the telly a little while ago, where he squirmed when he was faced with those personal stories of financial ruin and when he was faced with the emotional stress. Now what he has done is to put forward a bill that tinkers around the edges of the problem. It does a little, but it does not do what is needed to be done, which is a lot. This is an \u201CAvoid Bill\u201D; it avoids the realities of what is really happening to New Zealanders, it avoids the total reform that is needed, and it avoids the fact that this legislation is merely tinkering around the edges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226921ae2e6f584a63b0f45fd4c0e693f5\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us what you\u2019d do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f90ce6a8ecb647ea9cef4cb8d1cccef6\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We will support it, because we will not play with homeowners. We will not play the political buying, going to and fro. We will find those who are caught in this web by doing the politics within it, so we will support the Government\u2019s amendments, because\u2014like other parties in this House\u2014we hope. We hope that this bill might do something for those homeowners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELet us deal with some of the facts. The bill wants to encourage parties into mediation. Let us get real! Who would go alone against myriad lawyers and experts? I asked the Minister whether he thought for one moment that councils would not bring along all their lawyers and experts to fight cases\u2014and, in many respects, the councils would be doing their ratepayers a disservice if they did not front up with all those experts and lawyers. And now the Government is asking those homeowners to front up to them alone. The victim does not have the buying power to provide for a balanced adversarial hearing or mediation, and is, more often than not, bullied into accepting a lower than reasonable settlement just to come to a conclusion. The Minister is expecting those people to front up on their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWhat about legal costs? What about the Government fronting up and helping these people so that they can help themselves? How about fronting up with legal costs for those homeowners who need it? I tell the Minister that the action group advises people not to go mediation and not to take their case, because they will not be able to front up on their own and in many cases cannot afford the lawyers to see it through. At this stage we have huge concerns about the adjudicators. Only two of the adjudicators have building backgrounds\u2014all the others have only legal backgrounds. Only two have the knowledge of the industry that is required to make these decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is why so many claims are not being pursued. Why are they not being followed through? It is a serious question. Have these claims miraculously been resolved? Have these buildings been fixed? Is that why these claims are going away? Or is it because these victims have no one to claim from? Is it because some of those dodgy builders that the Minister speaks of have closed their businesses, done a runner, and left the victim with a leaky, dangerous home and no one to be accountable for it? The Minister is nodding\u2014he agrees that is the case in many instances. I ask the Minister what he will do about it. What will he do about standing up for these homeowners who need something? The answer is quite simple, is it not? The answer is nothing. The Minister will avoid the real issues facing these homeowners, and do a bit of tinkering around the edges on a bill that he hopes will work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EI feel for the builders and tradespeople who want to be accountable and who want to front up and fix these problems, who were, perhaps, sold products\u2014like timber, cladding, and all that sort of stuff\u2014that were faulty. I feel for those builders who want to do something. We have to be concerned for the councils, who are often left dishing out thousands and thousands of ratepayers\u2019 dollars because they are the only ones standing. What will the Minister do to fix the real issues? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe Greens asked us to please look at a building court. How about we look at a building court? How about we look at addressing the real issues? How about a building court where we do not look at these issues as if they were in the future, where we do not talk about the issues all around the edges, and where we face up to the realities of the billions of dollars needed to fix these homes? The homes, clearly, are not being fixed. The Minister should ask himself the question of who will do the remedial work. Which builders will want to front up and be the ones fixing others\u2019 work that has gone wrong, and then have the checks and balances come in after that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EOf the changes to the bill, let us talk about the land information memorandum notifications to start with. Notifications in respect of claims must be placed on the land information memorandum for the particular property. We had expressed concerns about this issue. We felt that for the owner who is coming in, and for the buyer who wants to purchase a building, there needs to be some form of recognition that there has been a claim against the home. We also had a lot of questions about the limitation period on claims. I personally heard the submissions of people who had very real concerns about that 10-year limitation and whether it would go through. Upon advice from the advisers, who did an outstanding job in getting this through in the time they needed to, it was a number of other concerns\u2014as has already been addressed by my colleague in the Green Party who sat with us on the Social Services Committee\u2014that there was too much, and that we could not go outside that limitation period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ENext I come to the multi-unit claims. This is an interesting issue, in which we have more of the same concerns. The Government would like it that 80 percent of people in a multi-unit\u2014if that is what the body corporate says\u2014have to agree on something before they can take it to the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service. One has to ask how these claimants can get to a place where there is agreement. In my case, for example, there are 87 of us who own apartments within an area. How are 80 percent, even, of 87 of us going to agree on what the costs are? We do not all have the same concerns\u2014not all of the apartments are leaking in the same way, in the same place, or in the same areas\u2014and yet we are expected to agree, and then take our case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELet us imagine if we did take our case to the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service\u2014which, as I say, we will not. How will this legislation tie up a service that is not meeting the needs of leaky-home owners now, when we see only 7.6 percent of claims being resolved? Now we are throwing in multi-units and the substantial\u2014huge\u2014needs that they will bring before the service. We have huge concerns about the realities of much of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe Minister has stood before us and presented this bill. We hope that the new system is faster, we hope that it is speedier, and we hope that it actually lives up to some of the expectations of some of these homeowners. But it will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee36ad855cde4f4e9829f3e0684c407f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee36ad855cde4f4e9829f3e0684c407f\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. On behalf of New Zealand First I say that we will certainly support this bill, notwithstanding some of the comments that have been made by people who sound as though they are actually opposing the bill, and yet whose friends\u2014and even the member Paula Bennett herself\u2014will certainly become beneficiaries under this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThere are a number of reasons why we support this bill. Firstly, we heard from a previous speaker that there were 3,800 claims, and that 134 have been settled, but that another 437 new claims have been made. I suggest to this House that it is important to have appropriate legislation that will address that particular issue. We in New Zealand First believe that this legislation will do that. Secondly, this legislation is not about providing obstacles to homeowners but rather about drilling to those who are responsible for this issue. That may include builders, developers, and even architects. Thirdly, this bill is not about poor workmanship but, more essentially, about addressing the use of poor material. We need to make sure that similar material is not used in future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI also make the point that this bill is not about race, as some earlier comments in this House might have suggested. In fact, if M\u0101ori are affected by the leaky homes syndrome, then they have equal access to P\u0101keh\u0101 to what this legislation will provide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAlthough New Zealand First was not represented on the Social Services Committee, we want to acknowledge the fine work the committee has done. It saw that the original bill needed a replacement, as its report back has recommended. Clauses 3 to 39 will be replaced by new clauses to include all the elements of the bill and everything that is in the principal Act. New Zealand First, as I said, did not have a member on the select committee, but after having read its report we feel confident in supporting the passage of the bill though this House. We are confident that this bill fulfils its aims, which are to improve the experiences of those unfortunate enough to own a leaky home and who are seeking redress and resolution through the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service. The system now allows for a smoother and more transparent system than that previously in operation. I think that the comments made by a previous speaker certainly validate what I have said about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe bill addresses a number of issues and I want to comment on one or two of them, particularly in terms of the land information memorandum notifications. The Chief Executive of the Department of Housing and Building and the tribunal will be required to advise territorial authorities of all leaky home claims. It is important that any purchaser of such a home is made aware of this particular issue regarding the land information memorandum notification. Failure to do that will certainly do an injustice to people who are contemplating the purchase of such homes. Of course, there will be no delayed notifications and the information must be placed on the property\u2019s land information memorandum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWe heard comment in relation to multi-unit claims. While I can sympathise with some of the comments made about the difficulty of getting a minimum of 80 percent approval of a particular issue, I say that what the bill has put in place is much better than what was previously there. The important thing is to ensure transparency, accessibility, speed, and simplicity for those who need to use this service, remembering at all times that those people are victims of a system in which this fiasco was allowed to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EComment was made about whether it should be the tribunal system or the court system that is used, and about the fact that some homeowners may not be able to afford legal representation. At the end of the day it is the choice of the individual homeowner to decide whether he or she wants to take a claim to the tribunal or to the High Court. I suggest that those who take it to the High Court will certainly have legal representation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThere are many lessons to be learnt from the leaky homes saga, not the least of which is that we should remember, when deregulating and privatising, that the regulations were put there for a purpose. It was never in anybody\u2019s interest, save for the sharks in the industry, to relax the regulations in relation to the building and construction industry. I trust that this sorry episode in our history is now put to rest permanently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe commencement dates, as outlined in the bill, are certainly relevant in terms of the comments that have been made in the report. It is important that the effects of this legislation are put into action immediately. I think the suggested start date for the tribunal is 1 May 2007. Although we would have liked the date to be much earlier than that, the actual process of getting legislation into the system will require that sort of time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI also noticed, with regard to the building tribunal, some submitters suggested we should adopt the approach currently being used in Britain. This bill is intended to establish a specialist tribunal that will develop expertise in leaky building cases, so that it can provide relatively timely and low-cost resolution of such disputes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9fd595217bc49bbb6df7d2f721c7825\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: They haven\u2019t got the expertise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060209be27aa46f18f803245e1918d49\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: It will have. I am sure that as an affected homeowner, the member would claim to have some expertise on the problem. We are seeking expertise on how to solve the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAs to the 10-year limitation period for submitting claims, I say we have to draw the line at some time. I am not sure whether the 10-year period is the appropriate one, but we have to set a time frame or otherwise it may be like Waitangi Tribunal claims. So we have to put in a time frame to be consistent with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First members have one or two issues we would like to raise during the Committee stage, but suffice it to say that we will support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00224a29b90bff4c49279dd87009802db9b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a29b90bff4c49279dd87009802db9b9\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak on the second reading of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Amendment Bill. It is a necessary amendment bill. In fact, it is more than an amendment; it is a replacement for the original Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future supports the bill but, like others in this House, we agree that it is not a cure-all for the matters related to leaky homes. We support the inclusion of relevant information on the LIM report as a positive step, although I looked back over the notes I took during the submissions and saw an interesting suggestion made that the information should go on the certificate of title, based on the fact that very few people actually get a LIM report. There are some ongoing challenges for those with multi-unit dwellings, and this amendment recognises some of those difficulties and makes a start towards dealing with those concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ELike others, I want to thank the select committee; it was an enjoyable working process. I would like to thank the submitters, and the officials who gave us advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EHowever, the lesson does not go away with the passing of this amendment. The ongoing issues regarding housing design, building methods, and building materials remain. I still remember driving around a new housing division looking at new designs. I have a husband who is a very practical handyman, and he was not as impressed with the new designs as I was. He had some real reservations about what might happen. It sounds as if a lot of people had those kinds of reservations, and we are now bearing the consequences of some very poor thinking in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand, homeownership has always been a bit of an excuse for low levels of saving towards retirement, and that is why the leaky homes problem has been such a crisis for those people affected. I agree with Paula Bennett that it is important during this second reading not to trivialise the suffering of people with leaky homes. Their homes represent their hard work and their future security, and for those people that has been crumbling before their eyes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe need to deal with future potential damage came up during this amendment bill. Of course, these issues have to be balanced against the normal deterioration of natural products, like timber, in the life of a home. Forecasting is difficult, but establishing damage is absolutely pivotal to the process, and this bill seeks to better facilitate that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOne of the other issues that comes up in regard to that\u2014and certainly several submitters mentioned this\u2014is the need for better education for New Zealand homeowners about the maintenance of their property. Homes do not last forever but they certainly last a lot better with a regular coat of paint, if that is the material the homeowner has chosen to use, and with some basic practical maintenance being done to them. I think there is very little education, and people often expect much greater longevity from a home than it is capable of delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe issue of making sure homes are properly fixed after the settlement is one that still concerns United Future members. We think that some ongoing work on this matter should be encouraged. Certainly, the Wellington City Council, and a number of the other city councils that made submissions, had ongoing concerns about the fact that their housing stock in their towns, particularly those that had claims made against them, in some cases remained unfixed even after settlement. I think the slowness of the process up to date has contributed to that. It has meant that when people have received some compensation, much of it has had to go towards other bills sustained during the process, like legal costs, and therefore homes have remained either partially or completely unfixed. There is possibly a need to look at the joint fund currently used by local government instead of individual insurance policies being used. There is concern about the fact that that fund is fast running out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAt a later date we also need to reflect on some of the submissions from builders. They said they would like some additional clarity as to when an individual builder can be held to be negligent, as there is still a lack of clarity around that. They also asked that builders be included earlier in the claims process than they currently are. Sometimes they do not even know that a claim has been taken out against a building they were responsible for building. They believe that if they were included they could, firstly, with their knowledge of the building, throw some light on the damage occurring. They also said that if they were included at an earlier date, many of them would want to jump in and get the problem fixed before it progressed, and before there was further deterioration to the building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI think that a number of matters that came up at the Social Services Committee warrant some further consideration. However, that being said, I believe that this is a move forward in the right direction. It is not a big enough move, but we will support it because of the good it will bring to the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EName changed to Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002217aed0d0de914404baf336ab4e059a2e\u0022\u003EWeathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002215b24deaf1a44351be93c13b511aed08\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2cb225a8938486ebbc0d7a598890621\u0022\u003EPart 1  Weathertight homes resolution services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002295f44b5b138842fe94ecb87467e3dfd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295f44b5b138842fe94ecb87467e3dfd5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I have a very, very simple question for the Minister Clayton Cosgrove in respect of the Committee stage of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill. On the bill\u2019s introduction he said that the objective was to speed up the resolution claim process. We know that after the last 4 years it has been a disaster and a flop. We know that of the 4,000 claims that have been made, fewer than 600 have been settled, and that it is costing, on average, $100,000 per settlement and the actual amount that the homeowner is receiving is less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe test I want to give to the mantle of the Minister is how much difference will this bill make. We know that last year 180 claims were settled and we know that another 500 claims were lodged. So it is going backwards. My simple question to the Minister is how many claims does he think\u2014with this bill passed this year\u2014we will settle next year? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241f010403a34409084df8ba871fa8253\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: Can he tell us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e49d05118ff49669c5d4d03366ed875\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Could any member of the Government tell us? They say this bill will enable homeowners to get justice, and to get justice more quickly. We believed them in 2002, and we have found that it was a fraud and the bill has been a failure. So I ask the Minister in the chair, Clayton Cosgrove, given that he settled only 180 claims last year, how many he will settle with this new legislation next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ff3e092-9caa-44d9-9171-5c8fca280d96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260793b1793cf4df4963672eb4352fad9\u0022\u003EMark Blumsky\u003C/span\u003E: More or less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e830b48dee41a9b255cb4ae9fbb396\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Can he give an estimate? A target? We know that 3,000 claims are outstanding. Can the Minister give me any estimate? The silence is deafening. Every member of the Government has his or her head down. Why is that? Maybe Marian Hobbs will answer. I ask her how many settlements she thinks we might get next year. How many of these homeowners might get some justice next year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb55cf2fb3cd4e7588bb0ee7f2887df2\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: I am reading about verbal violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed7c1976b454dc8a812192399166476\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member considers it is a joke. It is a very serious question. The Government presents a bill to the House, slams that bill through under urgency, and says that it will address the problem of leaky homes. It is a simple question. How many claims will the Government resolve next year? We know that claims are flowing in at a rate of about 400 or 500 per year. I say to the Minister, at the very least, that if he is to get on top of the problem we suggest that he settle as many claims as are newly lodged\u2014or will 2007 be the same as 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, and 2002, in that we are going backwards, and more claims are being lodged than are being resolved? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that by his not answering that question he is effectively saying to those leaky-home owners that this is just another spin job, another fraud, and another delay tactic in trying to avoid, duck, and halt those New Zealanders being able to get justice. I simply say to the Minister that if he is not prepared to test the mantle by actually giving a target to the new tribunal as to what it is to achieve, he is failing. The Government can change Ministers\u2014he is the seventh Minister to have the responsibility in this Government\u2014change departments, and change names, but leaky-home owners need solutions, and the Minister needs to set a target. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to hear from the Minister about this. He is proposing to shift responsibility over to the Minister of Justice. Does that mean Minister Clayton Cosgrove will still be responsible for it? That is a fair question. After May, when the responsibility for the tribunal will transfer over, will Clayton Cosgrove\u2014the Minister who has told the House that this bill is the solution\u2014be responsible, or will we have just another chapter of \u201Cpass the hot potato\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240626af0c2264a6a92019063c0c2d4fd\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: They could get another Minister; that would be No. 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a70c0c2082144b0d86b54a73ea4f4b66\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: We could get Minister No. 8. I ask the Minister, when the transfer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3a791c35bb4119a7d2021a3b26649a\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Almost as many deputy leaders as the National Party has had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208984ea563324797833c2cb828bfdd6d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I know that member is going to have only 2 more years in the House before Nathan Guy takes him out. Can the member answer for me whether this bill will result in a new Minister being responsible for resolving this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9e9663a3a0d4412892a5dd6945317e7\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got very good Ministers here. We can pick any one to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dac3e17c8904ec193308aecae5dd565\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There we are. We are none the wiser. On the two key issues of how many resolutions we are going to get with this bill and which Minister will be responsible, the Government is absolutely silent. The National Party simply says that leaky-home owners deserve better than this. This Government is continuing to fail them. This is a fraud of a Christmas present for those leaky-home owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u00227cc8bb61db9544d9a7723b7ff722a6da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cc8bb61db9544d9a7723b7ff722a6da\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E I would like the Minister for Building and Construction, Clayton Cosgrove, to take a call. It is a very important question that National is putting forward. How many claims does the Minister think will be settled once the changes proposed in the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill have gone through and are implemented next year? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EAs we say, the current legislation has not been working. That has been evident just in the numbers, if we look at those. As we have previously stated, only 7.6 percent of claims have been settled. Even if those claims that have been withdrawn are added, the percentage is only 20 percent. So National members would be interested to hear the Minister say how these changes will increase the number of settlements, and, more important, how those homes will be fixed. It is one thing to be making more settlements and, hopefully, making those settlements speedier, but how is the Government going to follow through and ensure those leaky homes are fixed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022547c93309c814f2d9c6fca9e666cb1fc\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: They use the money from the settlement to employ someone to build the house. They use the money. It is simple economics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1144704fa34bdb851fae9b3022d631\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government going to guarantee that? How is it going to guarantee that that money is\u2014and it is not, at times\u2014actually used for fixing the homes? I know that the Minister is hoping the land information memorandum notification will fix some of that, but National members have huge concerns as to what it will actually do. One of the things that we tried to get through the Social Services Committee was the requirement to have a trail of evidence going through the land information memorandum report, so that if it had to be notified, there would be a trail of evidence that repairs had then been made. Some of that real dilemma is created by retrospectively forcing the disclosure of claims on to land information memorandum reports. What does that mean for those many homeowners who have made claims on the basis that claims would not be disclosed? Has consideration of that been taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like the Minister to take a call on\u2014and it is quite a serious question\u2014is what happens if one has had a private assessor\u2019s report done, finds that there is a leak, but decides to sell and not take a claim to the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service. There is nothing in the bill that requires an owner to declare the water entry or the damage in that case. The bill states that that must happen only if a claim has been taken. So where is the protection\u2014if that is what it is really about\u2014for the homebuyer, if the seller has not taken a claim? I would be interested in hearing from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Clayton Cosgrove, who is furiously taking notes\u2014I presume on what we are saying\u2014so that he can address that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThere are so many issues that go on. The simple case is that everyone here is saying that the bill does not go far enough. The Minister himself addressed that at times, saying that it will, hopefully, make the process a bit speedier, but acknowledging that it will not fix the problem. Perhaps the Minister would like to take a call and give people a bit of a heads-up on the changes he plans to make\u2014if, of course, he is still in the job, because we are up to Minister No. 7 looking after leaky homes in just 4 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce4204025e584dada5328739430db139\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Eh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c5df4d2a83b43189ac59ad7ffb1e133\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are up to Minister No. 7 in just 4 years. He could let us know what changes he may perhaps be thinking of making next year, if he is still in that role\u2014if we are not up to Minister No. 8\u2014to address those very serious issues. Perhaps the Minister could stand up and be counted, and make a real difference for those homeowners. Perhaps he could show them that he actually gives a damn by doing something worthwhile. Perhaps he could put a fund together and make it substantial so that people can see some difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EPerhaps he could offer an interest-free loan to give those people money so that they can fix the problem. Half the problem, when they go to mediation, is that they do not know how much it will cost to repair the building and do everything; they do not know that until the building starts to be pulled down. They go to mediation saying \u201CWe think it\u2019s going to cost X amount of dollars.\u201D, and they may settle and get X amount of dollars, but when the repairs are done they find the price is double that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E They again lose out. They are losing out in not getting legal costs, they are losing out in not knowing how much the repairs will cost, they are losing out because the banks are not lending them money to get the repairs done before they go to mediation, and they are losing out because their homes lose value by the day. They are left holding something that is unfixable, and they have a Government that is not taking the matter as seriously as it needs to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EPerhaps the Minister will take a call about looking at having a building court with real expertise, so that people have one place they can go to get the answers and get their cases heard in a truly efficient manner. Perhaps the Minister can tell those homeowners how he thinks this bill will help to solve their problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002238c871b9ac724f7cae075433b2ab11cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238c871b9ac724f7cae075433b2ab11cd\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a brief call and, firstly, draw members\u2019 attention to Supplementary Order Paper 83. The primary legislation we are debating today contained, as I said in my previous address, some minor drafting errors that the Supplementary Order Paper seeks to correct. Those minor errors arose in respect of the drafting, and it is important to ensure that the recommendations of the Social Services Committee are integrated, through the amendment bill, into the new Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper contains two parts. The first part relates to Part 1. It sets out amendments required to correct drafting errors and make other drafting improvements; makes an overview of procedural provisions in clause 7 more accurate; makes clearer the definitions, criteria, and provisions on representatives relating to claims in respect of multi-unit complexes; requires statutory declarations for claims under clause 20; ensures that clause 60 treats existing agreements and contracts in the same way as they are treated in the former Act; and removes remaining references to forms prescribed under the bill. None of those changes represent changes in policy from the amendment bill as introduced and considered by the committee. When we come to debate Part 2 I will outline the issues that relate to the Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will touch briefly on a couple of points. It is interesting that members of the Opposition raised\u2014colourfully\u2014all the problems and historical issues. I am the first to say that there were, of course, problems and historical issues. Dr Nick Smith himself always neglects to point out one of those issues, and that was the abolition of trade training, which happened in his time in Government when National abolished the Apprenticeship Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThere was a question in respect of ministerial responsibility. The Ministry of Justice will be responsible for the tribunal function only; the rest of the service remains the responsibility of the Minister for Building and Construction, which is me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn respect of United Future\u2019s point about the land information memorandums, the member raised the issue about perhaps placing the information on the certificate of title. The certificate of title is about the property itself rather than the building. When a notice is put on the land information memorandum, that is reported and that is the definitive document. We as a department will also be providing a heap of consumer information to folks who are looking to purchase properties. We found that many people\u2014probably most of the members in this Chamber\u2014would check the land information memorandum or instruct their lawyers to do so when they went to purchase a property, but the evidence is that many New Zealanders, under pressure to buy and secure a property, in some cases do not actually instruct their lawyers correctly and do not look at documents in respect of the land information memorandum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd24298398f34b718dcf5f76cb4adbc8\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How many are going to be settled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225707052df7854c8580f34429ca0a1f57\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a very interesting point as to how many will be settled. It depends on a number of things. We have a natural justice issue, and it is that under the present law, and once this legislation is enacted, claimants will have the choice as to whether they proceed under their current scheme of arrangement\u2014if they are in the system under the current law\u2014or whether they jump the fence, adjust their claim, and move forward under the new scheme of arrangement. That is up to the claimants; it is not for members to pontificate as to what the claimants\u2019 legal rights and responsibilities are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI also make this point. I note from all the Opposition\u2019s pontificating, including that of Dr Smith and Paula Bennett, that they are taking free kicks, then accusing the Government of being cynical because we propose a bill to fix the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bcce67f41c3451e98d513e51fc7e04f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll fail. You failed once and you\u2019re failing again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c0319dbaa04d13bd1190c488e8377f\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to that member and to members of the Opposition that throughout the course of the issue I have not politicised it. When I met with John Gray, an eminent New Zealander who will go down in history as a person who does not take a dollar for his services and represents thousands of people who are in strife, I made a commitment to him and others that I would not politicise this issue. Yet here we have a stark difference. The Government has a large bill on the table. There are our policies, there are our solutions, and there are our proposals. Unlike Dr Smith, none of us can see into the never-never land. For every speech that Opposition members stood up today to make\u2014Dr Smith, Ms Bennett, and others in the Opposition\u2014not one solution did they put forward. They threw mud at us, they talked about setting up a fund, but they did not say the fund was their policy. They talked about interest-free loans. Of course, my colleague Chris Carter is putting together now a loans scheme at market rates. It is another solution that we are proposing, and it will be announced prior to the implementation of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo there was a lot of mud thrown, a lot of invective, a lot of venality, a lot of mean-spiritedness, and a lot of hot air\u2014cynical hot air\u2014as those people got up, but there was not one policy. If they were genuine about helping those in crisis, they would get up and say: \u201CWe may disagree with parts of this bill, but here are the solutions we think you should implement to make it better.\u201D Not one solution was offered; it was just the usual National Party hot air. As the members of the Leaky Homes Action Group listen here today, they will judge the debate for what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI am reminded of the words of John Gray in an interview on 9 May 2006\u2014the day I announced the proposals, I think. The reporter said: \u201CSome say Nick Smith\u2019s leaked lifeline is pure politicking.\u201D The reporter was referring to Dr Smith trying to ramp it up and make political capital out of the announcement, instead of actually being critical of it, as he is entitled to be, and providing analysis. Here is what John Gray said: \u201CYes, it\u2019s a shame that he\u2019s\u201D\u2014that is, Dr Nick Smith\u2014\u201Cchosen to politicise the whole process, because the review outcomes are very positive for leaky-home owners, and we are looking forward to the Minister making the announcement in due course.\u201D I gave a commitment to Mr Gray that I would try to help, and I intend to do that, and this Government has done it and will do it in respect of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBut it stands as a stark contrast when we as a Government propose a bill, and propose our policies and ideas, and what do we get from the hollowed-out members on the other side of the Chamber? Zip\u2014apart from a hyperactive member who stands up, waves around bits of paper, turns red in the face as the antennae and hair stand on the top of his head, and gets worked up. Where was his solution, where was his policy, and why did he kill off trade training, which has a direct correlation to this issue, because if one deregulates an industry and provides no minimum standards, and one is not prepared to train professionals to do the job, then that is a recipe for the disaster that a large number of New Zealanders are now feeling impacted upon them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThose are our solutions. I stand by them, and I believe they will assist those people who need help the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 83 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cec3fab52d448188149baf54d501ebf\u0022\u003EPart 2  Repeal, consequential amendments, and transitional provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000352\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 83 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000353\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000354\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8864aafb9054914be2a5b3649ecd1bc\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228a4fe31ceb5480eb9e65e41fa27a72c\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000357\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 83 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000358\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000359\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a0652cec23b445aa8921b4ce4abca60\u0022\u003ESchedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000361\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 83 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to Schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000362\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000363\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002223c7056f4ffb4625bb031bf05884d8ac\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b87c01e617f4a7b803e5ac30ac03d29\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000366\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000367\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002245ae730ee9674bc1a6eed582b377cd80\u0022\u003EWeathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d17b49fbd13449d2afad63ca06dc3b9d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002207f1714e7e4141b7b177d8781dfdad11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f1714e7e4141b7b177d8781dfdad11\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill be now read a third time. Firstly\u2014despite some of the rhetoric\u2014I thank the House for expediting this bill. I know that those people listening who are affected by this issue will be grateful for that, even though the content of some of the debate may have been less than it should have been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI thank the Social Services Committee, chaired by my colleague Georgina Beyer. I will now do something that is rare in this House, which is to thank all members on that committee, from both the Opposition and the Government. Although we may disagree on the path forward, hopefully we do agree on the objective being attained, and I thank that committee again for its cooperation in expediting this bill back into the House. The bill as reported back from the select committee contains a number of amendments, which we have debated in the last hour or so, dealing with the operation, or efficiency and effectiveness, of the bill. The committee was under pressure and it had a shortened time frame, and, in order to get this legislation implemented by the stated time of 1 April, it did a phenomenal job of getting it back here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI also thank the interest groups\u2014the individuals and organisations\u2014who made submissions on the bill. I am aware, despite the hot air of some, of the plight and heartbreak this issue causes and its impact on people\u2019s lives. I visited many of these people. When I visited them, I shut up and I listened to them, rather than pontificate to them. During the review of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service we listened to organisations and individuals, like Mr Gray and the many thousands of clients whom he represents, who are ordinary people. We listened to what they believed the solutions should be and, of course, we listened to our officials\u2014and I thank my department and the committee officials. We listened to them all and I believe we have come up with a bill that will work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EA house is probably the biggest asset that most New Zealanders will ever have in their lives, and maybe the car is the second biggest. When people have the Kiwi dream of building their dream home or of having it built for them and are then confronted by shonky workmanship, shonky design, and\u2014in some cases, but not in all\u2014councils that have abrogated their responsibility in respect of inspection, and when there is a systemic failure caused historically by having very few minimum standards and having a lack of proper trade training\u2014which this Government has now remedied through putting 9,000 people into trade training, going up to 14,000 next year\u2014what does that all boil down to for the average Kiwi? It boils down to a tragedy. I acknowledge the guts of those Kiwis who have waited for a solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs I have said, the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service originally was set up as a call to arms. Yes, there was a bit of a rush about it, but it was done with a good motive to try to find solutions to fix these folks\u2019 tragedies. When one does that I acknowledge that some things are missed. I acknowledge also that the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service, as it sits today, has not worked as it should have. That is why we have taken this opportunity in the House to remedy, I believe, this problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThis bill is central to the Government\u2019s commitment to actively help resolve the problems of leaky-home owners. In the Committee stage, one member asked how will we do that. Well, it is quite simple. If we can get claimants into the system, have the claims heard, find the liable parties, attach liability to the person who did not do the professional job\u2014because, of course, the taxpayer did not build the house or hire the shonky professional\u2014and get compensation for the homeowner, then, I would say to Ms Bennett, that it is quite a simple thing to get those homes fixed. If people are provided with the money, then they can get in a professional, and we are licensing people to ensure that we do have building professionals. We can sort the wheat from the chaff, the cowboys from the professionals, in the trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b8a9d4316e4d169d25e42af7c570ad\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Deal with the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b09e8c766ee45b68be13f7b8a144189\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: If people get their compensation faster, then they will hire somebody to fix the problem. I would have thought that was self-evident; for that member, obviously it is not. The primary objective is to get the cowboys out of the system. That is why we are licensing building professionals, which is an add-on around this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think that, collectively, these measures will assist people. I believe these measures will get more claims through the system faster, they will drill into those liable parties, and they will get compensation for people so that they can have their homes fixed up and can get on with their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eca285b8c364949844debd9c448cefa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How many? How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022672d407d341f43889ee4906698ab3dc2\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: But I do note again, just for the record\u2014despite the twittering from the \u201Cgrey warbler\u201D across the way there\u2014that it is not a solution proposed by an Opposition, and it is the role of an Opposition to be critical of the Government. I would have hoped that members opposite might have provided a solution, or their view on what they would do, but, sadly, that has been lacking in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn May this year I announced these enhancements. After a major review during which we listened to stakeholders, we have now kept our promise of passing these measures before the end of the year. Although we have in the legislation a \u201Cgo date\u201D, if you will, of 1 May next year, the stated objective of the Government\u2014which I believe we will meet\u2014is to have this system implemented and up and running by 1 April. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI thank the Consumers Institute and David Russell. I thank John Gray and his troops. I thank those in the building industry: the master builders; Pieter Burghout and company, the certified guys; and the local government representatives who collectively have all given their views. Yes, we have disagreed on some issues; I accept that. I accept in respect of Mr Gray that we disagree on the 10-year limit. He has a different view on legal costs; I accept that. But I believe\u2014and I acknowledge and respect him for his views\u2014that, collectively, this bill will tackle the problems identified. This bill will assist those that it needs to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI challenge those who may throw mud at this legislation to get behind the proposal. We all have constituents. Probably every electorate in this country has constituents who have been impacted by shonky design, by shonky building, or by some cowboy dealing to them\u2014not just with leaky buildings, I might add, but shonky building right across the board. I lay out a challenge to members of the House, as a collective of 120-plus members, to put politics aside for once and support this proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252ab9eb5e9bb46998805201e8dcc404f\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: We voted for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e59f4f93723427b8be1e3e4a792b199\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Ms Bennett voted for the bill and opposed it at the same time, which is a very interesting position and one that people will judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI challenge every MP in this House to get behind this proposal, and to go out and encourage their constituents to rock up to this new resolution service, so that we can assist them. We know there are 15,000 people out there. We also know that there are possibly a number of people out there who have not engaged with the service or a court because\u2014as members on both sides have said\u2014they do not have faith in the current resolution service and they do not have the money to go to court. I encourage members to go out into their communities, say that assistance is available, and ask people to give it a go, because I believe it will work. The challenge, of course, will be whether certain individuals can put their political protestations aside and represent their constituents in an appropriate way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E I thank the department and the officials, who have put a hell of a lot of time into this legislation. The Department of Building and Housing is criticised occasionally, as all bureaucratic entities are, and the boot goes in. But the team that has been working on this for many, many months has some of the most passionate individuals that I have seen, and they are passionate because they actually want to help people. Staff in my office have taken phone calls from people, and one of the department\u2019s officials said to me that occasionally people can be heard bursting into tears on the phone because this tragedy has impacted on their lives so much. I thank those officials, because they have put heart and soul into this legislation. They believe in it and they believe that it can work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI say to those in the communities affected that I believe that this is a sound policy, built around not just what the Government thinks, what I as a politician think, or even what the bureaucrats think, but by working with stakeholders in the community like Mr Gray and his group, and by listening to what they say, what their needs are, and what they would like\u2014what they believe the solution should be. After all, they are the ones standing in the houses or, in many cases, the ones living with their kids in the houses. I believe that we have listened. We have disagreed occasionally, but we have listened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EOverwhelmingly, I believe, we have put in place legislation that at its very base will assist those people and that will, over time, get them out of the situation they are in. I thank members on both sides of the House for their support of this bill, besides the disagreements, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022655d7166be5b4eb3a57ba519d077f8b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022655d7166be5b4eb3a57ba519d077f8b9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E National will support the third reading of this Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill, but without the sort of rhetoric that came from the Minister that somehow this will be a solution. Yes, the legislation will provide some small improvements, but in no way is it a solution for the 15,000 leaky-home owners out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Minister Clayton Cosgrove said that National in the Committee stage had thrown mud and been personally derisive. Let us get the record straight\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022110315989db84596898b1f54c80f9ac0\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: I said you proposed no solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225faad20e39d6427c94f595fea9f12765\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me deal with each of those. We have cited the statistics of his Government\u2019s record. We make no apologies for doing that. When the original Weathertight Homes Resolution Service was set up, the Government said that the problem would be resolved within 2 years. Four years later only 7 percent of claims have been resolved, and we would be derelict in our duties as an Opposition if we did not challenge the Government on that record. I have not referred to the Minister by any sort of derisive term, yet he has called me a grey warbler and made all sorts of other comments. It is typical of Clayton Cosgrove that when he cannot answer the questions he gets personal and he gets nasty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI have a very simple question I put to the Minister in the Committee stage, and I will put it to him again. In the last year there have been 500 new claims and fewer than 200 settled. If that is the solution, will he tell me how many claims will be resolved in the year 2007? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221342013c781d411b9a91c34f08720ec8\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Simple question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249fc84cab427472db167ae2553ca088f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fair question. Will he even assure the House that next year there will be more resolutions than new claims? The silence is deafening, because the Government knows that this is a con. You see, this bill changes the department that is responsible for the job. It changes the name of the service. We are now to have not a seventh Minister but an eighth responsible Minister in the term of this Government. I ask the Government how keeping on changing the Minister provides any solution for the leaky-home owner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to point out the appalling legislative process that has been around in dealing with this matter\u2014that is, the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Act of 2002. It came into the House on 1 November, and became law on 26 November. It was a failure, and even the Minister has accepted that today. Yet today we are being asked to pass 10 pages of law that has never been to a select committee, and that was only tabled in the House today. The Government has learnt absolutely nothing in terms of resolving this issue. A bill was introduced and sent to a select committee, but only two of its clauses have survived\u2014the title clause and the commencement clause\u201436 of the 39 clauses have been changed, I tell the Minister. If he had done such a thorough and excellent job, what sort of process is that? The process of dealing with this issue by legislation has been appalling. It failed once; it will fail again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAnd here is the chronic contradiction for the Minister. He said to the House that he wants the builders, the architects, and the developers to participate constructively in the mediation and settlement process, so that we can fix the houses. He says that the Building Industry Authority and the Government failed in the 1990s, but will the Government now participate in mediation? Will the Government be part of the adjudication process for finding a solution for homeowners? Not on your life! In fact, the Government has spent $6 million of taxpayers\u2019 money on lawyers, going all the way to the Court of Appeal, to eliminate any liability. So this Government is again saying: \u201CDo not do what we do; do what we say. That is, if there is any liability for us, we will fight every step of the way through the courts. We will spare not a dollar in finding the best Queen\u2019s Counsel in the land to avoid the taxpayer having to spend a single penny on fixing one of these houses. But if anybody else is involved, then they should somehow participate.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational says that that is wrong. We say that there are four parts to the solution. Firstly, lawyers are a part of, and required in, the process, and their fees should be able to be claimed. The Government says no. Secondly, National says that we should spend the money on fixing houses and not on the process. Thirdly, National says that in finding a solution, we should be able to deal with all the problems with homes and not just with the issues of leaky houses. Finally, we say that we want the focus to be on getting results, and the fact that this bill will not work is reinforced by the fact that no one in the Government will give any commitment as to the number of claims that will be resolved in future. Sadly, leaky-home owners will have to wait for a change of Government before this problem is fixed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dee87b51a49f441caf294f95b13a83b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dee87b51a49f441caf294f95b13a83b4\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am somewhat saddened by the pessimistic remarks that have been made. Although I can understand that from a political point of view those comments may seem justified by those who make them, I think we need to look at this whole bill in a more positive light. I know that my colleague from Te Tai Tokerau the Hon Dover Samuels often talks about Santa Claus at this time of year. I suggest that for a number of leaky-home owners this legislation will almost be like something they would receive under the Christmas tree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis bill goes towards bringing some resolution to what has been a harrowing experience for the owners of homes affected by the problems of leaky home syndrome. It is a result of the fact that the existing legislation has not been effective enough\u2014hence, this bill. I say that if something is wrong, then we should fix it. To the credit of this Government, it realised that the original legislation was not effective in the way we would have liked it to be, so we have this bill. I want to recognise the select committee for having the courage to recommend to this House that the principal Act be amended in the way that this bill has been presented to the House. The select committee has clearly put a lot of effort into bringing this bill back, and again I acknowledge the intestinal fortitude of the members of that committee in bringing it back in this form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EWhatever we may say, and whatever criticisms we may have, about this whole sorry saga, it is important, and it is incumbent on this House, that we provide an effective resolution of the leaky homes problem. On behalf of New Zealand First, I say I believe that this bill will actually do that. Notwithstanding some criticisms of the bill, we still believe that it is in the best interests of those who own such homes. It is also in the best interests of the territorial authorities that we have a coordinated approach to resolving the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eede9bf4bfec46008787f46290a035cd\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: I will not speak for the full 7 minutes still left allotted to me. Suffice it to say that I just reiterate New Zealand First\u2019s support for a really important bill that will go a long way towards providing closure for those whose homes are affected by this sorry saga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00224a76b6f3b21f4ce7927e000560ecac50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a76b6f3b21f4ce7927e000560ecac50\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future in support of the third reading of the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Bill. As we round off this debate on this important legislation, I think it is important to remind ourselves exactly why this amending legislation came before the House in the first place and what exactly we are trying to address. The first thing is that currently, prior to the passage of this legislation today, it was taking a very, very long time for claimants to resolve their issues. The process had become extremely adversarial. Claimants were under-resourced compared with the respondent territorial authorities and often felt very much on the back foot. The process was costly, with the costs of the process often being higher than the claim itself. A very good example was Wellington City Council, which reported that it had spent $70,000 in court defending itself over a $4,000 claim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe other problem was that the claims were only for actual and visible damage at the time. There was no provision within the Act to anticipate the ongoing consequences of a leaky home. Lastly, we needed this legislation because there were some huge barriers for people who were in apartment dwellings, in terms of processing their claims. So this bill provides for those people\u2019s class action for multi-unit complexes. It widens the scope so that potential damage\u2014that is, damage that has not yet occurred but is likely to occur\u2014can be covered. It improves assistance for claimants. It also sets up a new process for people who have a low-cost claim, so that it is not too expensive for them. There are new statutory time frames, including a date by which all settlements must be sorted out. A new tribunal is established. The thing that United Future is very pleased about is the better opportunity for prospective homeowners to receive information about the weathertightness history of the house they are about to buy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ESo as we end this matter, we have to ask ourselves whether this is the end of it. Others in the House today have said they hope it is; I have to say that I suspect it is not. Although many of the ongoing issues that United Future would like to see addressed may fall directly under this legislation, we would like to see the Government move to provide better education for homeowners around home maintenance. I think we need clearer boundaries around areas of responsibility for all those who feature in the housing industry, from local councils, real estate agents, builders, plumbers, and other housing-related trades, architects, inspectors and assessors, legislators, and those who set standards and codes. Although we welcome the chance for claims to be settled in a timely way, we do caution the House to remain watchful to make sure we do not end up with an unacceptable forced settlement process that would further victimise homeowners of leaky homes. We are happy to support this third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221542a554daf44e099e196c168db4bfab\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022514a05e734b84810a5d54ec7b1df1e55\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00221c07373a32fc4ee2886a18f203f7156d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c07373a32fc4ee2886a18f203f7156d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Epidemic Preparedness Bill, the Health Amendment Bill, the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), the Parole Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill (No 2), the Social Security Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill (No 2), be now read a third time. I want to make my comments briefly. It may be that there will be relatively few speakers in the third reading debate on these bills, but this concludes a process that has been a cross-party process\u2014one that I think has shown that when there is a threat to this nation the parties of this House can act together, and can act together sensibly, to good effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EI therefore want to thank again the chair of the Government Administration Committee and its members, who deliberated on the legislation. Also, I thank again the Law Commission, and especially Sir Geoffrey Palmer. As well, I would like to thank those who made their submissions on this legislation, members of Parliament across all parties, and, indeed, officials, the Clerk\u2019s Office, and all those who have worked on what has been difficult but necessary and important legislation\u2014legislation that now finds itself divided into many bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aea6fd08ac1b44d3ad7d8b2e64e1bacc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aea6fd08ac1b44d3ad7d8b2e64e1bacc\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Health, Pete Hodgson, for his comments. This was difficult legislation for any select committee to have to deal with. The process was one of those rare occasions where Parliament worked in a totally multi-partisan way. There were no politics. It was difficult to find the politics in this legislation. I also thank the other members of the Government Administration Committee, who spent numerous hours going through what at times were tedious recommendations and suchlike from various organisations. I thank the staff of the committee, the Clerk\u2019s Office, and all those involved. Certainly, I thank the officials from the Minister\u2019s office, who were very articulate in the way they presented the issues to us, but were equally good at listening to the concerns of the committee, then going away and coming back with alternative recommendations. I know that at times the parliamentary staff found the job quite difficult, particularly parliamentary counsel, and I thank them for their efforts. Sir Geoffrey Palmer and the Law Commission spent time going through some of the anxiety the committee had around the executive power we were giving to whoever is in Government in relation to this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe legislation is potential law that we hope will never be needed, but if we look at history, I think it is easy to conclude that at some stage in the future it will be. In 1918 New Zealand had an epidemic the likes of which would trigger this legislation. Again, in the 1950s, a similar event occurred, although it is not as well-known as the 1918 flu epidemic, and there have been numerous other examples around the world. We all know the concerns worldwide about avian bird flu, which as yet has not gone from one species to another species. According to scientists it is only a matter of time before it does. So something was necessary, and it is only prudent to plan for such an event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe select committee spent some time on what is now clause 5 of the Epidemic Preparedness Bill, which empowers the Prime Minister. In fact, a lot of debate took place around what should be done in respect of how to trigger a pandemic notice and have it gazetted, and who should make that decision. In the finish, the committee came down on the side of the Prime Minister being the principal person who would make that decision, having first been advised in writing by the Director-General of Health, and having the support of the Minister of Health. The committee, to try to bring balance to that executive power, then looked at how the House could be involved not only in ratifying any decisions post the event but in planning for such an event. It came out with the final recommendation that the House should be notified as soon as possible and practical after such a gazetted notice of a pandemic, and where practical and possible the House should be recalled\u2014not necessarily in Wellington, if that was deemed to be unhealthy or unwise. The Governor-General currently has the power to decide where Parliament sits, so the committee decided that that was a reasonable balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E During the discussions the other issue that arose was that of what would happen if there was such an event after Parliament had been prorogued, and therefore we were in between Parliaments so to speak\u2014either during an election campaign cycle, which may not be able to take place as the result of the pandemic, or after an election, when the result was known but the new Parliament could not meet due to the pandemic. It was decided that further work needed to be done. I was heartened by the Minister\u2019s comments in the first reading debate that the ministry was going to look at a way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe committee also asked whether there were any Standing Orders that would need to be amended, and we were informed that there were. In fact, the Regulations Review Committee spent some time looking at that. We have been informed that that will take place at the earliest opportunity. The committee was reasonably comfortable that we had arrived at a place where we had struck a good balance between the amount of executive power that would be necessary for the Government to manage a pandemic of some sort that had the potential to disable large parts of New Zealand, to cause the deaths of thousands of people, and to disrupt the economy and general business, and the checks and balances on that executive power, which are needed anywhere, through a parliamentary process. I think we have the legislation about right. We will never know, until it is tested. I hope it is not in my parliamentary time. I hope it never happens, but, I guess, that is wishful thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ECertainly, when the legislation is tested, the media will take an interest in it. There has been a deafening silence from those who would normally have a view on this kind of thing. Throughout this process there has been overwhelming media publicity of the work the select committee has done! I am not sure how the members of the committee can cope with the publicity we have had! However, I am sure the media would be immediately interested in who was on the committee and what had been decided, in the event that a pandemic did take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThis legislation is one of those rare occasions when Parliament has worked together. The public often screams\u2014after watching 30-second sound bites of the most dramatic bits of what happens in here\u2014about the childish and nonsensical way that this place operates. Now we have an occasion where Parliament has worked together, and I guarantee that there will be columns written in all the major papers, that the legislation will have at least 15 minutes of television time, and that the media will pay attention to it like nothing else!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWith those few words, it is my pleasure to support this legislation. I hope the legislation is able to achieve the goal that is set out for it to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7fbf12855234a8d91a07acc7313dc3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7fbf12855234a8d91a07acc7313dc3f\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the third readings. I sat on the Government Administration Committee for the purposes of this legislation, even though the Greens are not normally represented on that committee. The reason I sat in was our concern that the powers being granted to the executive branch were, perhaps, excessive in the situation. As the legislation proceeded through the select committee, it was very good to see the way in which the input of so many people was considered\u2014input from the select committee people themselves, from Shane Ardern, who chaired the committee quite well, from Ministry of Justice and Ministry of Health people, from human rights people, and, of course, from Sir Geoffrey Palmer, who has been mentioned, from the Law Commission. All their input was considered, and the views of the officials evolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThis legislation changed in the select committee stage probably more than any other legislation I have ever seen in Parliament. That happened through a consensus process that ended up with a unanimous vote, and it is a tribute to the workings of Parliament. What was done was that all the controls in terms of advance regulations were brought in\u2014a stepped-in process of the controls in the legislation as the threat of a pandemic increases, and the stepping out from those controls as it recedes. A whole lot of things were built into that process, including, as Shane Ardern just mentioned, the parliamentary supervision process, the calling together of Parliament, making sure members of Parliament have the right to challenge any regulations\u2014those that were not arranged in advance through the regulatory process prescribed but brought in at the time of the pandemic and that were to go through a proper regulations review system. At the outset it may have been thought that because a pandemic hits so fast, so dramatically, a lot of those things might have to go by the board a bit. But I think we worked it out, after due consideration, that we can have a process. Of course, the process is difficult when a pandemic is operating, but it can work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other thing that Geoffrey Palmer brought to our attention, which really struck me, was how in some ways we are ahead of many other countries in world in how we have dealt with this threat, because a lot of other countries deal with such emergencies under generic legislation. Geoffrey Palmer, from the Law Commission, mentioned in his paper the United Kingdom\u2019s Civil Contingencies Act 2004. He mentioned the positive side of that Act in terms of Parliament being called together to look at regulations made under that Act. But the other side of that legislation, which is not quite so positive compared with what we will have, is that it covers so many different types of emergencies\u2014threats to human welfare, which can be in the areas of health, transport, communications, energy, water, and food; threats to the environment; and threats such as terrorism\u2014all bundled up in one Act, and we can see there the potential for the executive to exert power across a number of fronts relatively unrestrained. So I think our legislation is much superior to the approach taken by some other jurisdictions, and we can be proud of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to say, from a Green perspective, is that although we think such legislation is very necessary and that it is important for the executive branch and Parliament to have the powers worked out collectively to loosen certain laws because of people being unable to get around to fulfil certain legally prescribed functions during a pandemic\u2014although that can operate at the national level\u2014the real success of what we do as a country will depend on how well we work together at the community level. I think that is relevant to what Shane Ardern said earlier when he talked about publicity and the population\u2019s knowledge both about what the Government might be doing and about pandemics as a whole. The community has to be a bit engaged with that prior to the pandemic breaking out, because with such a threat there will be a bit of panic if people think that coming into contact with an infected person might put their lives and the lives of their families in danger. There will be the stress of families divided\u2014families who may have some members overseas who are not able to return\u2014and all the anguish that that breeds. So calm people, like teachers, who are used to dealing with large numbers of kids, and doctors and nurses, who deal with large numbers of people in the community, will have to be geared in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe will have to work as a community to reduce the cross-infection that might take place, but, on the other hand, keep the society going. Keeping the medical system going as much as possible, keeping our families together, working out ways of people getting goods, shopping, without too much cross-infection occurring, etc., will be a challenge. I think we as MPs have a role to play in linking what we might be doing at the national level, and what the Government and Parliament might be doing at the national level, with what is being done at the local level, which is where the dangers of a pandemic are being confronted. The Greens are supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00220d5481c2ed6a40debd12f3e9502c37a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d5481c2ed6a40debd12f3e9502c37a5\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. Some debates in this House are concerned with nothing less than life and death decisions. The series of seven bills under final consideration here, which impact on the preparedness of the nation to face the onslaught of an epidemic, is exactly that. The M\u0101ori Party recognises the heavy responsibility this Parliament brings to bear, when we take into account the inevitable and disproportionate impact of an epidemic on M\u0101ori. The association with M\u0101ori of \u201Cepidemic\u201D is one that is far too frequently made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EA month ago, Professor Martin Silink, head of the Brussels-based International Diabetes Foundation, told an international conference that the diabetes epidemic could wipe out M\u0101ori and Polynesian Islanders by the end of the century. And there is the meningococcal disease, which has been categorised as an epidemic since 1991, with demonstrably more adverse impacts on M\u0101ori and Pacific populations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EDr Lis Ellison-Loschmann, who has been following the work of the M\u0101ori Asthma Review, has described asthma mortality rates for M\u0101ori as reaching epidemic rates in the 1970s and 1980s. Dr Neil Pearce has also described the major medical controversy around the asthma drug fenoterol, which some 15 years ago caused an epidemic of asthma deaths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe significant and growing ethnic and socio-economic inequalities in lung cancer mortality in New Zealand, and the relatively high lung cancer incidence and mortality, particularly among M\u0101ori, mean that lung cancer has been reported in the New Zealand Medical Journal as an epidemic. The Workshop on Obesity, Food and Policy: New solutions?, held at the University of Auckland on 16 November, talked about an obesity epidemic. Associate Professor Wayne Cutfield, reporting on the situation in Auckland, has revealed an escalating epidemic of childhood obesity, wherein an estimated half of Pacific Island and a quarter of M\u0101ori children are overweight. There is also the concept of epidemic used in connection with cannabis and methamphetamine. So, in short, M\u0101ori seem to attract epidemics, if we are to believe all this information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThese are not just recent occurrences. I refer to a statement from our first New Zealand - trained M\u0101ori medical doctor, Te Rangi H\u012Broa\u2014Sir Peter Buck. He said: \u201CVarious epidemics were introduced by civilisation and have remained with us ever since \u2026 measles, typhoid, scarlet fever, whooping cough and almost everything, except plague and sleeping sickness, have taken their toll on M\u0101ori.\u201D So, indeed, almost everything has taken its toll on M\u0101ori. In the initial years following colonisation, the M\u0101ori population suffered a period of almost unbroken decline from 1858 to 1896, with the susceptibility of M\u0101ori to epidemics and other diseases introduced by the settlers being described as a major factor. But if there was one epidemic to outdo all others, it was the influenza epidemic of 1918 in which at least 2,160 M\u0101ori lost their lives. So our history provides us with visible and violent proof of the high likelihood of M\u0101ori experiencing significant mortality and morbidity in future epidemics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAlongside our history\u2014alongside the epidemiology of disease\u2014there is also the policy incentive provided in He Korowai Oranga, which demands that specific provision must be made to protect and enhance the well-being of M\u0101ori and to ensure that M\u0101ori health disparities are reduced. Achievement will require a total commitment from Government, a commitment to the elimination of institutional racism across the board\u2014in incomes, housing, employment, and justice, as well as in health. It will require an about-turn on the denial of rights for tangata whenua, for how can a person be whole and healthy when that person is assumed to have only subhuman rights? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EDr Lorna Dyall, senior lecturer in M\u0101ori health at the University of Auckland\u2019s faculty of medical and health sciences, has suggested four integrated pathways of work to run alongside each other in the case of an impending epidemic: the need to rebuild and strengthen wh\u0101nau; the need to involve M\u0101ori at all levels of decision making; the need to ensure that M\u0101ori can access and receive effective health services; and the need to ensure that a whole-of-Government approach is taken towards addressing M\u0101ori health matters. It is said that vision without action is a daydream, and action without vision is a nightmare. The M\u0101ori Party has a vision in which M\u0101ori interests are able to be placed at the very centre, with our well-being protected and enhanced so that our future and survival are assured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe action that these seven bills could drive is the bringing on board of appropriate M\u0101ori leadership, the use of M\u0101ori infrastructures and networks, and the ability of health workers to engage with iwi and M\u0101ori communities in helping to fight the excessively high rate of mortality that all predictions expect to occur in the likelihood of an epidemic. We want action in which our wh\u0101nau are actively prepared and ready to support and care for tamariki and pakeke in the event of an outbreak of an epidemic. Should avian influenza or, indeed, any infectious disease prove itself to be capable of becoming an epidemic, our communities need to be on high alert about how to preserve our most precious resource\u2014\u201CHe tangata, he tangata, he tangata\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe particular anxiety expressed by many tangata whenua about this legislation has been around looking at the concept of how best to minimise face-to-face contact. Questions have arisen specifically around our tangihanga, and whether the epidemic risks will entail mass burials to occur, therefore disrupting long-held expectations about the traditions associated with paying our respects to the deceased and their wh\u0101nau. In this regard we welcome the recommendation from the Government Administration Committee that an epidemic notice will be issued only for outbreaks of quarantinable, rather than infectious, diseases per se. The notice should be the sole preserve of highly infectious diseases capable of becoming a pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe have considered the viability of using marae for quarantine centres. The changes to the Health Act increase the powers of medical officers of health to detain people for medical surveillance for a period of up to 28 days. We note also that the police will be able to use force to detain people suspected of suffering from bird flu. We would suggest that rather than using the enforced authority represented by either the medical officer of health or the police, it would be preferable, in the interests of safeguarding public confidence and accountability, for encouragement to be given to utilising venues that are already familiar to the people, such as marae. We would also suggest that MPs take on board the need to inform their constituencies of what can be done to be \u201Cepidemically prepared\u201D. Accessible and widespread information will be critical to effective preparedness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn closing, I tell members that the 2006 census results were released last week, which showed that New Zealand\u2019s M\u0101ori population has experienced a growth exceeding 7.4 percent since 2001 to reach a grand total of 565,329. A century ago, in 1905, the M\u0101ori population hit an all-time low of 45,000 and was at risk of extinction. Not only did tangata whenua survive but we have sustained a substantial and vibrant level of population increase since then. We celebrate that growth and we look forward to it continuing. Our future as a nation depends on our young population, our M\u0101ori population, being able to thrive on many counts. We want to see our population contributing to the M\u0101ori economy of the future. We want to know our taonga will be protected for future generations. And we want to be content in the knowledge that our very survival is not at threat. Voting in support of the seven bills debated today, bills that were previously grouped together as the Law Reform (Epidemic Preparedness) Bill, is one more step along the way towards achieving that. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022912991130a56416da404b57a814a6032\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022912991130a56416da404b57a814a6032\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I rise to support this legislation and the subsequent amendments to the various Acts that it effects. This has been very important legislation for New Zealand\u2014an important planning step in the event of any pandemic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe are all very aware that a flu epidemic of the magnitude of the Spanish flu that occurred after the outbreak of World War I would be disastrous for New Zealand and, in fact, for the whole world. I was reading an article recently where it was estimated that a severe bird flu pandemic among humans could cost the global economy up to $2 trillion, according to Jim Adams, who is the World Bank vice-president for east Asia and the Pacific, and head of the avian flu task force. He said that represented more than 3 percent of the global economy\u2019s gross national product. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIf we use the same base percentage figure for New Zealand, then we realise legislation and prompt action on the part of the Government are absolutely essential. We need to have a timely response in order to attempt to minimise the crisis that we will find ourselves in, and of course to ensure that after the epidemic wanes, normal life is resumed as soon as possible. As a country we have no option but to be prepared. Other countries have legislation in place; so must we. The reality is that all countries will be dealing with the crisis that they have, and their efforts will be concerned solely with their individual situations and not ours here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EMany Acts are affected by these bills. However, if we are logical about this, we realise it means that this type of crisis does indicate that widespread efforts will need to be made across many fronts for some time. A pandemic threat such as bird flu or any derivative of it is far too important an issue for petty party politics to come into play. This is legislation that must be supported by every party in this House, and I can see the National member nodding in agreement from the back seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EPreparations such as those outlined in this legislation are absolutely essential, and New Zealand First supports this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u002264b6ce79d18e406597e916038798e096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264b6ce79d18e406597e916038798e096\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to take a call on the third readings of this legislation. The Epidemic Preparedness Bill contained legislation that we hope never has to be enacted. The provisions are triggered by an announcement by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Health, in collaboration with the Director-General of Health, that we are threatened by a pandemic. Pandemics are rare. We have about two or three every century. They can strike at any time. They are highly contagious and have a high fatality rate; there is no human resistance. The number of lives taken by the Spanish flu of 1918 is unclear but it was anywhere between 50 million to 100 million worldwide. Over 8,000 people died in New Zealand, 25 percent of the entire population of Western Samoa died, and 20 percent of French Polynesia died. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe strength of what has legislatively been put forward in this legislation is that health officials and officials in other Government departments are required to act predictively and make, in advance, as many of the regulations as they reasonably can. All regulations will be reviewed after the crisis. Most other jurisdictions have similar legislation, but New Zealand is perhaps a forerunner in designing regulations specifically geared to the conditions that prevail during a pandemic. A pandemic is different from other crises\u2014for instance, a natural disaster where people pull together to support each other. The nature of a pandemic is such that we would most likely be actively discouraging social contact, because that would add to the existing risks associated with a pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOngoing work is required at community level. For example, most supermarkets stock only enough food to cover themselves for 2 to 3 days. Public education about civil defence - type emergencies remains current, and ignorance on this matter is unhelpful. Although overreacting is also unhelpful, so is under-reacting. This discussion now needs to move beyond Government departments and towards neighbourhoods and homes. As others have mentioned, this is not a matter to be treated as a political football. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI thank the select committee for the tone, and working environment, that it created, and also for welcoming me, as a non-voting member, on to the committee for the duration of consideration of this legislation. United Future is happy to support the combined third readings of the seven bills resulting from the original legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022401c735244d14618ac482d3642da8890\u0022\u003ECopyright (New Technologies and Performers\u0027 Rights) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220385573313c9498dbd2e7e1508d95d3d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000449\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 7 December.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcac83d8777b4aaba2c2b89a1325fffd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcac83d8777b4aaba2c2b89a1325fffd\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Associate Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I will take up where I left off last Thursday on this bill that amends the Copyright Act 1994. I was coming to the matter of technological protection measures that offer a means to combat the ease of unauthorised reproduction and distribution of digital technology. There are, however, concerns about digital lock-up. Copyright owners may use technical locks, not only to stop their copyright material from being copied, but also to stop it from being accessed, and can therefore potentially prevent copyright users from making legitimate uses of the material, for example under the fair dealing provisions of the Act. Currently, the Act allows copyright owners to take action against people who supply or manufacture devices, means, or information specifically designed to circumvent measures that prevent copyright material from being copied and are intended to be used to make infringing copies. The bill extends this right by allowing copyright owners to take action where circumvention could enable infringement of all exclusive rights, not just copying. For example, the copyright owner will be able to take action in regard to devices where circumvention would enable infringement of his or her communication right. The act of circumventing the technological protection measure is not in itself prohibited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe offence provision introduced in the bill for the commercial dealing in circumvention devices, means, and information is intended as an additional deterrent to such activity. New provisions are also introduced to enable the actual exercise of permitted acts where technological protection measures have been applied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces protections for copyright management information that identify content protected by copyright in the terms and conditions of use. Criminal penalties are also introduced for large-scale dealing in copyright material where the dealer knows that electronic rights management information has been removed or altered. The permitted acts or exceptions to the exclusive rights of copyright owners contained in the Act provide an important balance between protection of copyright, and access for users. The bill clarifies and amends the exceptions to copyright owners\u2019 exclusive rights, particularly in relation to fair dealing, library archival and educational use, and time shifting. It also introduces new exceptions for format shifting of sound recordings for private and domestic use, and for decompilation and error correction of software. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EFormat shifting is a term used to describe the practice of copying the sound recording from one format to another, for example from a CD to a portable MP3 player. Today the popularity of MP3 players, iPods, and other portable digital music players means that people want to transfer music, which they have legitimately bought, on to these devices to take advantage of the new technology or to enjoy music in different places. Yet, despite the fact that this activity is common practice, it is an infringement under the Copyright Act\u2014a fact that most music lovers do not know. This makes otherwise law-abiding New Zealanders into unintentional lawbreakers. The bill amends this situation to reflect both fairness and reality. The exception does not legitimise clearly damaging behaviour like copying CDs for friends or selling them, or authorising online file sharing of music. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe Copyright Act also provides a range of rights to performers, enabling them to exercise control over the recording of their performances and the distribution of those recordings. This practice of making illegal copies, known as bootlegging, can have a major impact on the ability of performers to obtain a fair return for their efforts. In keeping with the changes to the main copyright provisions in the Act, the bill will update the technology-specific language currently used and will introduce a communication right for performers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003ECopyright legislation is a key aspect of New Zealand\u2019s intellectual property rights framework. Copyright continues to be relevant in the digital age, and is an important tool for digital content delivery and use, commercially and non-commercially. This bill promotes a modern legal framework that guides the protection and use of copyright materials. The bill will provide more clarity and transparency for how the Copyright Act applies in the digital environment. In particular it will enhance the certainty about how exceptions in the Act apply to digital works and will allow users of copyright material, for example libraries and educational institutions, to make use of digital technology with confidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E The bill will increase incentives for investment in creative industries, information and communication technology development, and new business models for the delivery of copyright works. Increased certainty will further be created by New Zealand\u2019s law being more in line with that of our major trading partners. Increased certainty is also encouraging the continued supply of copyright works and means of distribution, such as by Internet service providers, within New Zealand and from overseas, setting the conditions to encourage continued access to information and the innovations necessary for cumulative innovation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EI have indicated that at the appropriate time I will move that this bill be referred to the Commerce Committee for consideration, and I thank all of the officials who have been involved in the detailed negotiations that have resulted in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00222b0f57c454894954b6df61d48ab14e9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b0f57c454894954b6df61d48ab14e9a\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E National will support the first reading of the Copyright (New Technologies and Performers\u2019 Rights) Amendment Bill so that it can be considered carefully by the Commerce Committee. The first copyright Act was the Statute of Anne passed in 1709. It was enacted to protect authors who found that printers and booksellers were printing, reprinting, and publishing their books without their consent. Since that statute the Westminster Parliament has adapted the copyright system to cope with the technological advances of each age, and New Zealand\u2019s copyright law has always been closely linked to the UK legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn the 20th century this Parliament has made a number of changes to copyright legislation in order to provide protection for radio broadcasts, films, and television broadcasts. About 20 years ago the law of copyright in England was reviewed. The 1709 legislation was described as a modest Queen Anne house, to which there have since been added Georgian, Victorian, Edwardian, and finally Elizabethan editions, each adding embellishments in the style of the times. This bill, which seeks to amend the Copyright Act 1994, could be said to be a late Elizabethan embellishment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOne feature of this bill is that, on occasion, the equivalent English provisions are departed from in favour of provisions from Australian or United States copyright legislation. I think the select committee will need to examine those clauses whereby there is a departure from the English provisions to make sure that they are appropriate and that the legislation remains intellectually coherent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe Copyright Act 1994 requires a comprehensive review; we only have to look at the huge issues facing the law of copyright. For example, will protection and encryption technologies beat the hackers and the copiers? Will copyright enforceability weaken over the next few years? Effective copyright enforcement depends on a delicate balance of technologies, as protection abilities must outpace copying abilities. This balance is unlikely to continue during periods of rapid technological change such as we are now experiencing, notwithstanding the provisions of this bill. Indeed, there are some who believe that the enforcement balance is turning against copyright. These questions show why a comprehensive review is required and why there needs to be a fresh discussion about the appropriate balance between the interests of creators and the public. I am disappointed that the Minister has failed to institute a comprehensive review of our copyright law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThere is another reason why this kind of law reform is required. Amendments of this kind\u2014piecemeal amendment\u2014can damage the fabric of legislation. Rather than tinkering with legislation, on occasion it is preferable to have a comprehensive review, to go back to first principles, and to make changes in a principled manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EBefore making some comments on the detail of the bill, I will make a general comment about what I consider to be the key issue not addressed by this legislation: consideration of the other side of the copyright equation, namely, dealing with use that does not infringe the owners\u2019 legitimate rights. For example, there seems to have been no consideration of the recent proposals made by the US Library of Congress in relation to orphaned works. Various reports of the ministry have rejected a wider, fair-use protection, and that has left New Zealand copyright legislation with a mishmash of specific exceptions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI first address key terms in copyright, which are a very important issue in this bill. Many of the basic concepts in the Copyright Act 1994 remain relevant. However, two terms are changed by this bill. References to broadcasts and cable programmes are to be deleted and replaced by a new concept entitled \u201Ccommunication work\u201D. The new term is defined by an amendment to section 2 of the Copyright Act, inserted by clause 3(2), and it \u201C\u2026 includes a broadcast or cable programme\u201D. So the bill strips the Act of all references to broadcast and cable programmes and instead substitutes the term \u201Ccommunication work\u201D. I hope the Commerce Committee analyses that definition carefully to ensure that it adequately covers all new forms of technology. I agree that the current definition of cable programme is inadequate, but it may be wise for the select committee to consider retaining some notion of broadcasting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 44, which inserts section 81A, is a very important clause and needs some work, in my view. The first issue is whether what is proposed is the right policy response to the issue of making music available for portable devices. It could be argued that the market can provide the answer. What is proposed will permit home recording for private and domestic use, but the select committee may want to give some further thought to this issue. In addition, the section inserted by clause 44 has a sunset provision and will expire 2 years after the date on which it comes into force unless renewed by the Governor-General by Order in Council. The select committee may wish to consider whether that sunset provision is necessary or desirable. I have my doubts. It does not make sense that my right to download music to my iPod should automatically lapse. How will it be enforced? I think this provision needs a great deal of work done on it, and I understand that, as currently drafted, it satisfies neither side of the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI also have some concerns about clause 49, which repeals section 88 of the Copyright Act. The select committee will also need to take a good look at this clause. There is an argument that section 88 could be extended to permit satellite retransmission of free-to-air broadcasts and not just cable retransmissions. Enabling simulcast of free-to-air channels by digital satellite broadcasters will enable consumers in some parts of New Zealand to receive a much higher quality picture and, in some cases, channels that they are currently not able to receive. My understanding is that the equivalent provision in Australia has been extended to include satellite retransmissions. The explanatory note states that section 88 is \u201C\u2026 no longer suitable to achieve the original policy objectives of encouraging competition and improving quality of television reception.\u201D, but no reasons are given. Why is New Zealand adopting a different approach? What does the change in policy mean for those parts of New Zealand where there is no established cable network? I hope the select committee will look at those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EClause 53 introduces a number of sections that address the issue of the liability of Internet service providers for the infringement of copyright. Three circumstances are specified, and I will not address them now, but I know that the select committee will want to look carefully at those provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFor the purposes of this speech I do not have any substantive comments to make on those clauses that amend Part 4, \u201CMoral Rights\u201D, of the Copyright Act. The amending clauses delete references to broadcasts or cable programmes and substitute the term \u201Ccommunication works\u201D. For the purposes of this first reading speech I do not have anything much to say about Parts 6 and 9, which likewise ratify the terminology changes I have referred to earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe final clause I will refer to is clause 89, which introduces sections after section 225 of the Act. A subpart entitled \u201CTechnological protection measures\u201D is introduced. In simple terms, one can explain all this by saying that there have been some major technological changes since 1994 and that these have given rise to new forms of digital communications and ways of protecting this new technology. These measures receive protection under the bill\u2014for example, it becomes a criminal offence to provide or manufacture goods or services that act as a technology protection measure spoiler. It also becomes a criminal offence to alter or destroy any copyright management information attached to copyright material and to sell any material that has its copyright management information destroyed. I understand that these provisions are modelled on the American Digital Millennium Copyright Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Committee will want to consider the appropriateness of applying criminal penalties to actions that have not been considered to be the true business of the Copyright Act. The provisions expand the scope of copyright law and may not, in fact, be in the public interest. A better approach may be to allow bodies to grant exceptions that are justified in the public interest. I refer to the Library of Congress in the United States, which can issue regulations permitting certain breaches. I understand that the library has recently allowed an education exception to allow the encryption mechanism to be broken on DVDs so that professors can show a particular scene from a film, for example, to their students for educational purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, therefore, National supports the first reading. There are a number of important issues that the select committee will need to consider. As I have said, I think this type of law reform, in such an important area, is second rate. If the Government thinks that intellectual property laws are so important, it should institute regular and comprehensive reviews. This bill does not deal with many other major contemporary issues in the law of copyright, and it should. With those comments, I look forward to being part of the Commerce Committee, which will debate such issues as do appear in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00228ecf611ae9bb4c7b9f33994d6bd034ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ecf611ae9bb4c7b9f33994d6bd034ea\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I first became aware of some of the difficulties created by the new technologies with regard to copyright rules during hearings by the Education and Science Committee way back in 2002 into the National Library legislation. The representatives of news agencies expressed concerns about the required legal deposit of all published material with the National Library. The problem arose from the reality that many news agencies contracted with international news agencies such as Reuters. This created the conundrum that if there was a legal requirement for such material to be deposited, rivals could piggyback off the agency that made the initial deposit. Moreover, the material was being updated on a regular basis. At that time, I can well remember, it was pointed out that policy work was already under way on copyright legislation to accommodate the new technology. So the Copyright (New Technologies and Performers\u2019 Rights) Amendment Bill here today has had a long genesis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EComputers were supposed to make our lives easier. Yeah, right! But they are a reality, and that reality demands some additions to existing copyright rules. For a knowledge economy to flourish, there must be robust protections for intellectual property and for other people\u2019s creations. As pointed out in the opening anecdote, new technologies have created new challenges in establishing legal protections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe approach that has been taken in this bill is to reflect the basic principles of hard copy copyright\u2014in other words, existing copyright rules and principles\u2014and to apply those principles to the issues facing the new technologies. In other words, the bill has tried to apply practical, pragmatic, common-sense solutions to the challenges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EUnder the present law it is almost certainly illegal to copy music on to an iPod or an MP3 player, yet hundreds of thousands of New Zealand citizens do it, completely unaware that they are probably breaking the law. This new legislation will allow someone who has legally purchased a CD to transfer that music to an iPod or an MP3 player for personal use. For example, the car that I normally drive has a CD player. But I also own a little Toyota Town Ace, which is like a motorised trailer. I use it to go into town to get supplies of builders\u2019 mix, metal, and things like that. The Town Ace has only tape facilities. Under the present law, I cannot tape a CD and play the tape in my Town Ace; this new bill would allow me to do that. What I will not be able to do is to make a copy of the CD and give it away to somebody else. Certainly, the bill confirms the illegality of the sale of such copies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThere is some resistance from the music industry to this format shifting, because it encourages copying. However, if my Town Ace had a CD player, I could play the CD on it. I have purchased the CD legally, and therefore it seems sensible that I should be able to put it into a different format for my own personal use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deca635294d047cd8a87792b956357d2\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Change your car!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf0bcccaa13a416a98778f2d610fc0aa\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Barker that I cannot afford to change my car; I am not on a Minister\u2019s salary. To us in New Zealand First this legislation seems to be a very common-sense, practical resolution of the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe bill changes the definition of \u201Ccopying\u201D in the Act, to accommodate the nature of digital works. It also provides an exception to the reproduction right, for transient copying through automatic processes of communication networks. When we think about it, the absence of such a provision could potentially bring Internet networks to a halt. The bill specifically prohibits the manufacture or supply of devices that could be used to breach this copyright\u2014namely, devices designed to circumvent technological protection measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI am pleased that the bill lays out what is acceptable for libraries and education institutions. Development of photocopiers in the 1970s and 1980s led to widespread breaches of copyright. In fact, schools were not even aware that they were in breach of copyright on many occasions. Admittedly, in the 1990s that situation was tightened up, but the new technologies, as I said, have created new challenges for schools. The anecdote from Chris Finlayson, about the Library of Congress allowing certain sections of CDs or DVDs to be used for educational purposes, shows the way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI well remember Mark Peck saying with regard to the GE moratorium legislation: \u201CThe commercial sector isn\u2019t very happy, and the Greens aren\u2019t very happy, so we\u2019ve probably got it just about right.\u201D With this legislation, neither the creators of the materials\u2014musicians, etc.\u2014nor consumers will be entirely happy, which means it is probably just about right. New Zealand First will be supporting this bill, as it seems to be a common-sense response to the special challenges that the new technologies bring with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfa0397b56fc45b7a821c3bbe4800e55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfa0397b56fc45b7a821c3bbe4800e55\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E The people of Te \u0100ti Haunui-a-P\u0101p\u0101rangi were left with the words of their tupuna Tinirau: \u201CToi te kupu, toi te mana, toi te whenua\u201D. The proverb stresses that these three taonga\u2014language, prestige, and land\u2014are the main means of preserving M\u0101oritanga. Without the M\u0101ori language, without prestige or mana, and without land, M\u0101ori culture would be a thing of the past. In much the same way, the comprehensive protection of m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u2014M\u0101ori knowledge\u2014is intimately linked to the notion of copyright. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe, the M\u0101ori Party, welcome the opportunity for copyright reform to ensure that the critical issues associated with M\u0101ori traditional knowledge and intellectual property rights are debated. Thirteen years ago M\u0101taatua iwi and the National M\u0101ori Congress organised an international hui from which emerged the M\u0101taatua Declaration on Cultural and Intellectual Property Rights of Indigenous Peoples. The resultant declaration was tabled at the 1993 session of the United Nations Working Group on Indigenous Populations, and has since been acknowledged in a key number of international documents produced by Unesco, the Convention on Biological Diversity, and the World Intellectual Property Organization. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThere are three key ideas included in the M\u0101taatua declaration. Firstly, indigenous cultural heritage is site and community specific. Secondly, the first and primary beneficiaries of indigenous cultural heritage are the direct descendants of that heritage. Thirdly, indigenous peoples are willing to share with humanity their traditional knowledge, provided ethical processes such as free and prior informed consent are protected, alongside their fundamental rights to define and control this knowledge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101taatua declaration also calls on States to develop, in full cooperation with the indigenous peoples, a sui generis system to protect cultural and intellectual property. The concept of sui generis systems is a key principle for which we will be looking keenly to expert advisers\u2014the people in the know\u2014to bring their learning to bear at the select committee. The concept of sui generis is to describe new ways of doing things. Aotearoa has already introduced a sui generis measure in its Trade Marks Act 2002. In addition to the standard components of trademark law, there is a provision that enables the Commissioner of Trade Marks to refuse to register a trademark if it is considered to be offensive to M\u0101ori. This is considered to be a sui generis measure, a new and unique addition to the existing framework. So it can be done. Would it not be a great thing if, during the process of this bill, we were able to follow this lead and ensure that a new way of doing something could be followed up? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Copyright Act 1994 to account for the opportunities and risks that digital technology presents for creators, owners, and users of copyright materials. These new techniques can be both a blessing and a burden. The burden, of course, accompanies the risks associated with commercial dealing of material that acts against owners\u2019 rights. At its very essence, copyright is about creators being recognised for their efforts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI come to this bill from a basis of over 30 years in composing and orchestrating choreography for Te Roopu Manutaki M\u0101ori culture group. My passionate belief has always been that I want to share our works of art to ensure that our taonga tuku iho continue to thrive and revitalise our culture. But I am constantly reminded, particularly in the context of Te Matatini, our national M\u0101ori kapahaka competitions, of the significance of providing for intellectual and cultural property rights to ensure that the long-term development of M\u0101ori performance arts is protected. So I think about the world of kapahaka\u2014festivals, events, exhibitions, w\u0101nanga, workshops, master classes, M\u0101ori performance arts in schools, the Pacific Arts Festival, and international festivals and events\u2014and about how indigenous knowledge is protected across all those arenas. There is an ongoing debate about who owns the copyrights in all those areas. Is it Te Matatini or is it the artist? I know myself that it has sometimes taken all of our efforts to get our compositions out of the archives. After all, who are we? Only the authors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThat brings me to another point, which I hope will be taken up at the select committee. We seriously need to know the views of those at the coalface\u2014or, more appropriately, at the easel or the floorboards\u2014about the context of copyright in relation to new technologies and performers\u2019 rights. The issue of performers\u2019 rights gives us every reason to urge that tangata whenua be specifically invited to make their presence felt in this new legislation. Some in this House will recall that in 2003 Toi M\u0101ori Aotearoa, at an annual hui for M\u0101ori performers, raised issues about the performers\u2019 rights review before Cabinet. M\u0101ori performers described their concerns about collective ownership of performances, and protection for the underlying cultural heritage that provides source material for a variety of performances. This is particularly so in relation to respecting the cultural integrity of works once they enter the public domain. So we can do no better than turn to M\u0101ori performers to assist the Parliament in clarifying the application of existing rights and exceptions for tangata whenua in the digital environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EFinally, I recall the k\u014Drero that came out of the National Digital Forum of November 2004 at Te Papa Tongarewa. Dr Paul Reynolds raised the concept of a creative commons: a communal creative webspace in which the protection of intellectual property maintains the copyright holder\u2019s ability to grant certain rights to the public while reserving others. I quite like this idea, and I would be interested in seeing how it applied to our digital future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThere was also specific reference to the exhibition Ka Moe Ka Puta, which showcased Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu photographic archives. Unlike the temporary inhabitation of a physical space, an online exhibition has the advantage of creating an archive for the future. But there are also problems associated with this type of exhibition being made available online that relate to intellectual property protections, in particular. Suggestions were made that a type of subscription or password entry, perhaps by whakapapa, could be included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EOther issues raised included the probability of precluding human interpretation in the decontextualised atmosphere. In effect, what that means is that it prevents my kuia and kaum\u0101tua from walking alongside of me, describing the wealth of whakapapa connections that link to an image. These are all issues that we hope might be brought to the table when the bill comes to the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party will support this bill, and we look forward to a fertile discussion in which we are all better informed about the means of protecting and preserving the mana and integrity of our language, our words, our world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EI finish with a final inspiration from the oriori of T\u016Bteremoana, which reminds us of the importance of protecting M\u0101ori knowledge: kotahi tonu te hiringa i kake ai a T\u0101ne ki Tikitikiorangi. Ko te hiringa i te mahara. There was but one great power that enabled T\u0101ne to reach Tikitiki o Rangi. It was the power of the mind. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002230ee1af80def409f9d7887955d8ab4d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230ee1af80def409f9d7887955d8ab4d2\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak on the first reading of the Copyright (New Technologies and Performers\u2019 Rights) Bill. When Chris Finlayson spoke recently of the Statute of Anne of 1709\u2014I assume, by the way, that that is Queen Anne of the chocolates fame, because I know my wife Anne was not around in 1709, and, I doubt very much whether Madam Assistant Speaker was around in 1709, either\u2014I was reminded recently that this bill was introduced to the House by the Hon Judith Tizard, and that she was also involved with the Charities Bill a couple of years ago, which was a continuation of the Statute of Elizabeth of 1601. So, for whatever reason, it seems that the Minister Judith Tizard seems to pick up on Acts that were started by English female monarchs. Perhaps, in due season, this bill will be known as the Copyright (New Technologies and Performers\u2019 Rights) Act of Judith 2006, and historians will puzzle over why it had its first reading on 12 December when, in fact, the calendar shows that it is 13 December outside this Chamber. Anyway, I am sure those historians will be able to explain that little mystery to future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThis bill essentially updates New Zealand copyright law. Indeed, as Chris Finlayson has pointed out, there is a long tradition of law concerning copyright; it goes way, way back in time. This is necessary because we are now in the electronic and digital age. I could not help but think, when I was listening to Dr Pita Sharples\u2019 speech, which referred to T\u0101ne and other such things, that probably no one anticipated in those times that we would have an electronic and a digital age, and that the indigenous people of New Zealand, the tangata whenua, would be there alongside people from other parts of the world to put in place legislation to take us forward into that digital age. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI am a member of the Commerce Committee, and I note that the bill will be referred to that committee, so I look forward to getting down to the nitty-gritty of the bill in the select committee. At this stage I simply signal that United Future will support the bill, which I think is both timely and necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1f3345b217545008b0cae31942cf143\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1f3345b217545008b0cae31942cf143\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Copyright (New Technologies and Performers\u2019 Rights) Amendment Bill has been so long in the drafting that some of the more telling criticisms of it can be found in the ministry\u2019s own early documents. The ministry\u2019s 2002 position paper, for example, states it is the ministry\u2019s view that it is not the role of the Act to protect access-control technology, which is used in some cases to price discriminate and control the geographical distribution of works, to the detriment of users. I absolutely agree with that. Our copyright law should not be used to help firms to price discriminate and to control where and how works that have been legally purchased can be used. That would be to the general detriment of users, and it would stifle innovation and research. Yet that is precisely what the current bill would do. It would turn this Parliament into a tool of corporate control, by mimicking some of the least desirable features of prior American legislation on this topic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ETo be fair, there are some good points. The bill tries to distinguish between the personal use and commercial use of digital material, but with mixed results. It protects Internet service providers from being in breach of the Copyright Act as they conduct transient copying during the process of delivering web material, and it has also tried to come up with a workable notion of \u201Cfair dealing\u201D in copyright material. It tries to exempt sound recordings that have been ripped to an iPod or for playing in the family car. It also seeks to create another exemption intended to legalise the use of multi-zone DVD players. Those are welcome advances\u2014or they would be, if they were unambiguous. I acknowledge the comments of Chris Finlayson in his call for a comprehensive approach to the whole issue of what constitutes \u201Cfair use\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIf we take the issue of format shifting as an example, currently under the Copyright Act it is illegal to rip a CD that one has legally purchased on to one\u2019s iPod, or to make a copy to play in the car. Under this bill it would be legal to take a CD that one has bought and make one copy for each of the replay devices that one owns. Yet, incredibly, that provision has been given a sunset clause. The exemption that allows a person to format-shift the sound recordings that he or she has bought will expire 2 years after the legislation has been passed, unless it is explicitly renewed by Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIt seems to me to be a basic principle that once we have bought a CD, we should be allowed to decide how we use it in our own homes. How will this exemption work at all if a record company attaches non-copying technology to its CDs? Under this bill it would appear to be illegal to try to circumvent that technology and to try to enforce one\u2019s legal rights in New Zealand. One of the concerns raised by the Privacy Commissioner around this very point was that such proposals may force New Zealanders to accept intrusions on their rights that may not be consistent with New Zealand law but that it would be illegal to circumvent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIn addition, why has the exception for copying purchased sound recordings for personal use not been extended to audiovisual works, as well\u2014that is to say, to DVDs as well as CDs? People do format-shift both CDs and DVDs, and they will increasingly do so\u2014it is just a simple fact of the world we live in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe line between personal use and commercial use also gets very blurry, very quickly. If personal use can be argued to have commercial implications\u2014if one merely communicates information about the structure of encryption codes to others, who then use that for commercial or criminal purposes\u2014the chain of liability seems very unclear. Presumably, one cannot be held criminally liable for the end uses of digital information by others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIt is also unclear to me how, under this bill as it is drafted, one could carry out open-source research, which can be said to be for personal use but can have commercial applications too. The entire open-source movement, whose overwhelming strength and contribution to the entire evolution of the World Wide Web and the Internet has been based on its readiness to share how codes and formats work, could all be torpedoed by this legislation. We would be legislating against the new breed of web innovators. Where, for instance, will interoperable competitive products fall on the spectrum, as the bill attempts to strike a balance between copyright and personal use? In one sense it is clearly of personal advantage to be able to develop one\u2019s own product, but will that not entail cracking and disseminating the codes and formats of the units one wishes to interoperate with? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EBut, as I have previously indicated, my most fundamental problem is with regard to the degree of protection that the bill offers to technical protection mechanisms. Those anti-circumvention measures primarily put Parliament into the service of corporate profit-making. They give no discernible defences at all, that I can see, against malware or encrypted surveillance measures that corporates may well incorporate into digital works that they distribute. Collectively, these measures will\u2014and currently already do\u2014work to stifle innovation and research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELet me be clear at this point that the bill, despite its name, is not actually about protecting the copyright of artists. Their right to a decent income from what they have created is not the driving motive of this bill. Nor will this bill stop piracy or counterfeiting. The US legislation that the bill mirrors has been invoked not against pirates but against consumers, scientists, and legitimate competitors. This bill seeks to enshrine the rights of corporations over cultural and scientific property. Artists, with very few exceptions, will continue to receive a pittance for the fruits of their labours. After all, the bill is about the right of corporations to exploit consumers at every point in the delivery of digital material, and it seeks to make a criminal out of every citizen who tries to resist those corporations\u2019 power to do so. For example, corporations in the United States have already sued nearly 2,000 individuals who have engaged in the file sharing of music. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EJust today we have been debating legislation to end Telecom New Zealand\u2019s monopoly of access to the local loop. Why on earth would we want to create a new realm of legislation that enshrines monopoly access in the digital domain? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe international verdict on this legislation is already in. Cory Doctorow of Boing Boing, the world\u2019s most widely read blog, has this to say: \u201CNew Zealand MP Judith Tizard has sponsored an amendment to New Zealand\u2019s Copyright Act. The new copyright proposal mirrors the USDMCA \u2026 . This has been an unmitigated disaster in the US: not only has it totally failed to keep copyrighted works from being copied without permission \u2026 [but] it has also created an anticompetitive marketplace where companies can sue their competitors for making compatible products.\u201D\u2014for making compatible products! Cory Doctorow goes on to state: \u201CNot to mention the devastating effects on user rights, and the chilling effect on legitimate security research. The US had an excuse:\u201D, Doctorow concludes, \u201Cwhen it passed the DMCA in 1998: nobody had tried this and seen how bad it was \u2026 . But here we are, 8 years into the DCMA trainwreck\u2014what possible excuse can New Zealand have for adopting this failed US policy initiative? Why would you want to import another country\u2019s disaster?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThis Parliament has to ask itself that question. In fact, as someone has already said about this bill, people can poison a river and get a slap on the wrist\u2014or maybe get a consent, as happened in Pareora just today, I think\u2014but if they try to tamper with a multinational\u2019s international property rights, then the book really gets thrown at them, to the tune of fines of up to $150,000 or 3 years in jail in the case of this legislation. Why on earth do we want to introduce that kind of legislation here? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI will make one final comment around the exemptions for educational purposes. The point was made, in an email that came to me only today from Steven Marshall, that the Copyright Licensing Ltd v University of Auckland decision has made it abundantly clear that exceptions in relation to educational purposes must be interpreted as narrowly as possible. In practical terms it is very hard to stay within the limitations of the Act. New Zealand institutions have discovered that to their cost. In effect, every institution must use licences in order to manage the risk. The bill\u2019s regulatory impact statement acknowledges that obliquely, by saying that maybe some libraries and educational establishments will be prevented from making particular use of copyright material without a licence from the copyright owner, but that it is OK because it may already be copied under their licensing agreements. This rosy view of the world of licensing ignores the experience of Australia, which is often an accurate predictor of what will occur in New Zealand in this area. We have to remember that licensing for the digital provision of materials is substantially more expensive than for paper-based materials\u2014up to 10 times the fees for the same content if it is in a digital format. Institutions are having to invest heavily in onerous tracking and notice provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c59b062d19be4e808824f5ab395141ed\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Copyright (New Technologies and Performers\u2019 Rights) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 113\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000510\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Commerce Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002287f6675dc64945649ced65777bf4f834\u0022\u003ESocial Security Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab546c89644f40e6b8336dcfed3d8efe\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebb4e2de890943ea8fee2d1ce5175f23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebb4e2de890943ea8fee2d1ce5175f23\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF))\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment: I move, That the Social Security Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I will move that the bill be referred to the Social Services Committee, and that the committee report back to the House finally on or before 30 April 2007. This bill amends the Social Security Act 1964, an Act whose genesis is in the historic legislation of 1938 that was passed by the first Labour Government. It represents another step in our Government\u2019s active approach to social support and highlights the importance of work in people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EOur Government recognises that work is the cornerstone of people\u2019s independence and social and economic well-being. Over the coming months the services offered by Work and Income will be further enhanced so that intensive work-focused support will be provided to every person who is receiving a benefit and able to work. This reform is about providing services on the basis of need, not benefit category. It takes us a significant way forward in our programme to fully align the benefit system around work-focused services for everyone who is able to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIn the last 7 years our Government has reduced unemployment benefit numbers from around 160,000 to under 40,000. We have made excellent progress in providing stronger support for people who face particular barriers to work. The current high labour force participation rate of nearly 68.5 percent, and the low unemployment rate of 3.8 percent, are clear indicators of our success. We now have the resources to work intensively with people who are able to work, have told us they want to work, and need the right support to move into work. Alongside this activity we will continue to support people who are not able to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ESignificant changes to service delivery are already under way. These changes are aimed at providing work-focused services and support for people, right from the start. Enhancements are being made to employment and training assistance to improve flexibility and responsiveness, so that assistance better meets individual needs. This will see real benefits for all people of working age who are seeking to work. In particular, increased support for people receiving the sickness benefit or invalids benefit will help to ensure that those who are able to work receive the right support. The emphasis of the current initiatives is on getting the right services and support in place for people, but legislative change is necessary to support those changes and simplify the system. This bill introduces those changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe changes have a significant focus on youth. The shared Government and Mayors Task Force for Jobs goal is to have all 15-year-olds to 19-year-olds engaged in appropriate employment, training, or education activities. Enhancement through this legislation will contribute to this goal. From September next year a number of new requirements will be placed on people who are receiving financial support from the Government. Those applying for the unemployment benefit will be required to undertake a specific work or training-related activity or activities in the period between their first contact with Work and Income for assistance and their benefit commencing. They will be required to look for and accept any offer of suitable work during that time. This will mean that Work and Income will be able to direct a person to a work-related activity immediately, and not have to wait until after the benefit has commenced. Additional activity requirements for people who are receiving the unemployment benefit will also be introduced. They may be asked to plan or undertake a specific activity that will improve their prospects for employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe changes are designed to provide Work and Income with the flexibility to tailor the job search service to best meet the needs of the individual\u2014in the current environment many jobs are no longer based on a Monday to Friday working week\u2014to reflect the changes in workforce participation. The work test may, where a person\u2019s circumstances make it possible and appropriate, be applied over 7 days. Many people on the sickness benefit or invalids benefit say they want to work or to develop skills that will help them to get work in the future. More actively working with these people and providing them with the right services and support to participate in the labour market will have long-term benefits for everyone. From September next year people receiving the sickness benefit or invalids benefit who may be able to work at some future point will be asked to plan for that eventual return, and to undertake activities to help them develop the skills to do so. There is no intention to force people into work when they are clearly unable to work at all. Our Government recognises, as it always has, that work is not appropriate or possible for everyone, and, where that is the case, we will continue to provide financial support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI mentioned earlier the specific focus on young people, especially those 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds who no longer have the support of their parents. It is infinitely preferable for young people to be engaged in education or training than it is for them to be doing nothing. Missing out on those activities, and the opportunities they offer, can have a profoundly negative effect on a young person\u2019s future circumstances, including his or her ability to get a job. We know that young people who are inactive for long periods of time have a much greater risk of poor outcomes. Keeping young people actively engaged in training and education will motivate them to set and achieve positive goals. It will help towards addressing isolation and disconnection from society, which can lead to negative outcomes, and it can also lead to success in employment, the pathway from poverty and into economic independence. Our aim is to work actively with young people who need our support, and to encourage them to return to or continue with their education. From September next year 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds receiving an independent youth benefit will be required to actively seek work or participate in training or education activities for 30 to 40 hours a week. This will be a first and important step towards improving their current and future opportunities to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ETwo other changes impact on young people. From May next year we are extending the access young people have to the independent youth benefit by making it available to those released from the custody of Child, Youth and Family. This is a positive move. It means that young people who have been in a stable foster home may, if they wish, stay in their home and be in a position to contribute to household expenses. It recognises the need of the young person and the valuable support provided by foster parents. Changing the access that 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds will have to the domestic purposes benefit for the care of the sick and infirm, from May next year, is also included in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EOne of the Government\u2019s objectives is to enable greater choices for parents and caregivers around work and parenting. From September next year spouses or partners of beneficiaries with a dependent child under 6 will have the same planning and activity requirements as a sole parent. The part-time work-test requirement will be extended until the youngest child is 18 years old. At present the full-time work test is applied when the youngest child turns 14. The change will allow parents a further 4 years before the full-time work test requirements are applied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EA number of people care for someone who needs full-time care. The people who do this are sacrificing the opportunity that paid work offers in order to provide a valuable service. Access to the domestic purposes benefit for the care of the sick and infirm has long been linked to the fact that the person being cared for would otherwise need hospital care. That is an outdated consideration. From May next year the full-time requirement is being widened to include community residential services, rest homes, and equivalent levels of care in the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIf a person does not apply for a benefit because of an error on the part of the department, it is important that this can be rectified as quickly as possible. From July of next year the situation will change. The bill provides for the responsible Minister to consent to the payment of benefits starting earlier than the date of application, where a person did not apply for a benefit because of an error on the part of the ministry. This is a significant improvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill will insert purpose and principle provisions into the Social Security Act. Some parts of the Act have a purpose statement, but the Act has never had overarching purpose or principle provisions. A number of judgments from the Social Security Appeal Authority, the High Court, and the Court of Appeal have contained statements in relation to the purpose of the Act. Those have been taken into consideration in developing the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIn closing, I pay a tribute to the dedication and the professionalism of the staff and team led by Sue Mackwell in the Ministry of Social Development in bringing this large piece of work to such a constructive conclusion. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1edc3c866ef46b6a1897d84cbd0d8db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1edc3c866ef46b6a1897d84cbd0d8db\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment Ruth Dyson for her very full explanation of what the Social Security Amendment Bill is intended to do. Having sat through and listened to all that, and having read through the bill this afternoon, I have to say that it is legislating for Work and Income to do what most New Zealanders already thought that it did\u2014that is, to help people into work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister for Social Development and Employment first talked about this bill and went through all the rah, rah of a big announcement, he claimed that this was the greatest reform of the welfare system in 50 years. Of course, that is ridiculous. When members read through the bill, they will see that that statement is typical of the spin from that Minister, and that it has little basis in reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EIt is typical of the Minister, and it is an indictment on this tired, old Government, that it has taken 7 long years before we see any attempt to provide incentives and assistance in getting sickness and invalids beneficiaries, particularly, back into work. The number of beneficiaries has been rising; in fact it has risen by 50 percent under Labour. There are now 125,000 people receiving sickness benefits and invalids benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EEvery time we have questioned the Minister about this matter, he has quoted overseas countries with the same problem\u2014never saying, of course, that those countries have rising unemployment figures as well, which is not what we have seen in New Zealand. Whenever we have questioned the Minister about the fact that many people have gone from the unemployment benefit on to a sickness benefit or an invalids benefit, he has denied the facts. He has denied them, despite the fact that the numbers of invalids and sickness beneficiaries have continued to rise inexorably. He has sat on his hands, watched those figures rise and those people moulder on a benefit, and he has done nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EIn fact, the Minister has admitted that he knows that one in five potential sickness or invalids beneficiaries who are signed up by a doctor are actually fit for work. He has admitted that, yet even the great reform bill that has been tabled in the House today does nothing to tighten the assessment criteria for those potential beneficiaries. Twenty percent of them are getting a benefit almost fraudulently. The Minister knows it and the ministry knows it, yet nothing is being done in this legislation or by this Government to get those people back into work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EIn the spin around this bill, the Minister tried to conceal the fact that sickness and invalids beneficiaries would have their benefits cut if they did not meet the proposed activity requirements. He said that meeting the requirements would be entirely voluntary. Fortunately, a closer reading of the bill shows this not to be true. It is just another example of this Government saying one thing to people and then going out and doing another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003ENational is supporting this bill going to the Social Services Committee. Why on earth would we not? We have been arguing for this for 7 years. Labour members should be ashamed that after 7 years they have to introduce legislation to do what they have talked about doing for so long. We want to see this bill in the select committee. We want to tighten up the provisions in this bill. This is basically just a wet dishrag of a bill, designed to make the Government look as if it is doing something, but it is not actually doing very much at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EWe do not want to be tough and mean to people who are down on their luck. The reason that we want to make some tightening-up changes in this bill is not because we want to be tough on those people who are down on their luck or who are suffering long-term illnesses, but because welfare dependency is like a cancer that eats away at people\u2019s self-esteem, their mana, and their ability to look after themselves and their families. Only work\u2014even part-time work\u2014can lift their spirits, lift their aspirations, and, ultimately, lift their standard of living. The Government has a responsibility to support people into work and to assist them to take their lives back into their own hands, rather than allowing them to languish on a benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EFinally, I have to say to the Minister that we have talked for almost 20 years about a single core benefit. Is this bill as close as we are going to get to it? Where is it? Why does the Government not just come clean and say that it is too hard, that it cannot do it, and that this bill is about as close as we are going to get. We need aspirational change to free people from the welfare trap. This bill just does not cut it, but we will make it right in the select committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002226dc5540225c404f817aeac4d00fc5b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226dc5540225c404f817aeac4d00fc5b5\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I rise to support the Social Security Amendment Bill. For many years in this House we have heard about the need to refocus the whole social security system on work and employment. This legislation is an excellent opportunity to do exactly that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First believes that social welfare must never become a trap for recipients that keeps recipients dependent on the State. The welfare state is a safety net, a helping hand when it is most needed, and not a lifestyle choice\u2014and everyone in this House would agree. All of the research shows that families most thrive when adults are actively employed in the workforce. I think back to the numerous speeches that I heard from Dr Muriel Newman on this very issue when she was in the last Parliament. New Zealand First is very aware that the numbers of people on the unemployment benefit have steadily dropped, and we must acknowledge the efforts of the Government in this particular area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThere has been an increase of people on the invalids benefit and the sickness benefit; the numbers there have increased. Although we know that we have an ageing population, one must wonder whether this increase is, in part, a result of decreased personal expectations, the actual stress from not being employed, and the lack of social interactions that results from unemployment. As has always been the case, people with a terminal illness and people with a very severe disability or ill health on the invalids benefit are exempt from the planning or the activity requirements that are outlined in this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe emphasis in this bill is about getting the right services and the right support in place so that people\u2019s opportunities for work are increased. We must applaud that direction. This is what is needed. People who are able to work, should work. If they need additional support for a period of time, it is far less expensive to provide that support than it is to provide the unemployment benefit for them. It means, too, that solo parents caring for their children can plan ahead for employment in the future. The longer one is out of work, the harder it is to secure work. People should be assisted to ensure that they can develop work skills and be supported towards finding and holding down a job. Working adults are the basis of every society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EI was interested to read the \u201Csanctions\u201D part of the bill. It is very clear that when people fail to meet requirements without good reason, a sanction will be imposed. I believe that some training in this area may be necessary\u2014even for some of those people employed by Work and Income. Last week I was approached by a young man who had gone into his local Work and Income office, accompanied by his father, to sign up for an unemployment benefit. He was just in ordinary working clothes and was, he believed, untidy. For the first time ever that he had gone into the office, he was told that he had a job interview in the neighbouring city in 1 hour\u2019s time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe young person believed that he was inappropriately dressed for the interview and he wanted to go home to change into more suitable clothes and to gather his thoughts. He thought that if he did that, he would have a far better chance of making a good impression at the interview and getting the job\u2014because he wanted a job. The young man\u2019s request was considered basically to be a refusal to attend an interview. He was told he would have to stand down and was going to have a sanction applied against him. He was quite shattered, and that was not quite the treatment that either he or his father believed was reasonable. It was the first time that he had ever applied for a benefit. However, he went out and eventually found a job for himself, so that he was not dependent on a benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIn this bill there appear to be some changes to the services offered to 16 and 17-year-olds on the independent youth benefit. We must acknowledge that young people today face a far more complex and challenging social environment than past generations have faced. It is far more preferable for young people to be engaged in education and training, so that they can obtain and hold sustainable employment, rather than receiving a benefit at this point in their young lives. Any initiatives\u2014all initiatives, we should say\u2014to ensure that these young people can be engaged in activities that will further their opportunities to hold down jobs are welcomed. Young people cannot be inactive for long periods of time, and we are all very aware of the negative outcomes that eventuate from inactivity\u2014mental ill health, substance abuse, criminal activity, etc. Those are not things that we want to condone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ESuccess in employment, education, and training is the most important way out of poverty for young people. This is a very important bill and it has some far-reaching changes. New Zealand First looks forward to hearing further discussion at the select committee. We support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82906c112fe46adb649582166d6d9ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82906c112fe46adb649582166d6d9ee\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be voting against the Social Security Amendment Bill being read a first time. That is not to say there is nothing commendable about the bill. For example, the Green Party supports the reduction of the maximum income-related stand-down period from 10 weeks to 2 weeks\u2014something I, along with others, have campaigned on for many years. Pre-benefit stand-down is one of the primary causes of hardship amongst beneficiaries, and it is ridiculous that people are forced into total poverty and debt because of the 10-week rule. Although we would have preferred to see the bill abolish the stand-down period completely, we commend the Government for at least having the courage to go as far as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party also supports the aligning of the ending of benefits for sole parents who cease caring for dependent children, and the development of consistent residential qualifications across the benefit system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, other aspects of the bill do not demonstrate the same commitment to fairness, justice, consistency, and flexibility. For example, clause 23, which inserts \u201CPurpose\u201D and \u201CPrinciples\u201D sections into the Social Security Act, is nothing short of being parsimonious and miserable in its approach. It is those purpose and principles sections that will influence the interpretation of legislation by Ministry of Social Development staff and by the judiciary, in terms of the Act in its entirety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn clause 23 we see the framework for a regulated, inflexible, and mean-spirited social security system that is designed not to help to eliminate poverty\u2014which is what the Green Party believes should be the objective of the income support system in this country\u2014but to alleviate hardship, and then only to the extent provided for by the Act. This approach removes the system\u2019s ability to respond to individual circumstances, as exemplified by this Government\u2019s earlier abolition of the discretionary special benefit and implementation of the regulated temporary additional support regime. Today that is carried forth by clause 23 into the interpretation of the entire Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the New Zealand social security system, as embodied in the original 1938 Act and restated in 1972 by the Royal Commission on Social Security in New Zealand, has been to provide an income that allows beneficiaries to have a standard of living that enables them to participate in, and feel part of, their local communities. That principle was undermined by the very ungenerous approach to welfare of National-led Governments in the 1990s. These new purpose and principles sections are geared to finishing that unfinished business of Jenny Shipley. Even her modest safety net is left torn and tattered, and it will be the most vulnerable members of our society who fall through the holes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI now turn to other parts of the bill with which we have major problems. The Green Party opposes the \u201Cwork first\u201D dictum set out in clause 16\u2014that work in paid employment offers the best opportunity for people to achieve social and economic well-being, and that the priority for people of working age should be to find and retain work. Those principles have no regard at all for the valuable contribution to our society that is made by people who do voluntary work in their communities, or for people for whom caring for children, the sick, the elderly, or people with major impairments is actually their priority at that particular time in their lives. This bill establishes one standard for the wealthy, who have a choice about whether their children are cared for by an at-home parent, and a different standard for those who are ill or disabled, or who do not have a partner on a high income. The latter are expected to be working in paid employment, regardless of what they consider is best for their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EClause 4 provides that the definition of income for the purposes of the Act may, for people in self-employment, be subject to rules made by Order in Council. That is bad law. Any future Minister will be able to change what is called income and what is not, without reference to Parliament. Income is a concept that is fundamental to social security. As such, its definition should be set out clearly in the legislation, rather than be subject to the whim of the Minister. New section 132H, under which such rules will be made, permits rules that determine how a person\u2019s income is to be determined, where he or she has used assets of a business or trade for no consideration or for inadequate consideration. That will have the effect of introducing a de facto asset test for main benefits, which is a new and dangerous precedent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EClause 9 amends section 74 of the Act, relating to deprivation of income or property. This provision currently operates on a discretionary basis, and provides that where there has been a deprivation, the Ministry of Social Development may decline to pay, or may reduce the rate of, a benefit. Clause 9 makes that discretion subject to rules made by Order in Council. It is not possible to regulate for the whole range of human experience, and people will inevitably end up in hardship because of the operation of strict rules-based criteria. That is particularly pernicious in the context of deprivation of income or property, where people can be affected by what they did years before they ever think or imagine they might be applying for a benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EClauses 12 and 24 are also of major concern to the Green Party. They will require all benefit applications to be put in writing and on the form provided by the ministry, and to be for a specific benefit. There will be no provision for backdating entitlements except with the specific approval of the Minister, and then only in circumstances where the ministry has acted in error. That issue of backdating an entitlement has been addressed by the High Court, and, in my view, addressed very sensibly, in the judgment Scoble v Chief Executive of the Department of Work and Income. These clauses will restrict the application of the Scoble judgment in a manner that puts the onus on benefit applicants to apply for the correct benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe benefit system is exceedingly complex, as I am sure members will understand, and no beneficiary should be expected to understand it fully\u2014I doubt that most members in this House can. These clauses will have a harmful effect on some benefit applicants who do not understand the application system or the rules well, and they may prevent them from gaining adequate benefit or redress. I am also concerned at the use of legislation to overturn the intent of court decisions, as this bill seems to be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EClauses 28 to 32 amend the \u201Cpersonal development and employment plan\u201D provisions of the Act to include sickness and invalids beneficiaries in the requirement to develop such plans. There is nothing wrong with that in itself; if sickness and invalids beneficiaries are medically capable of doing some work and want to work, they should be given every possible help and encouragement by the department. However, the amendments introduce an element of coercion into the content of personal development and employment plans. When those plans were first introduced, I worked closely with the Minister and the Government to ensure there was genuine negotiation in the plan development process, and that the content of the plans was agreed between the ministry and each beneficiary. That concept now appears to have been abandoned in favour of coercion. There is a real danger that zealous case managers, following the new \u201Cwork first\u201D principles in the Act, will force beneficiaries into totally inappropriate activities. The similarly coercive approach taken in clauses 38 and 39 to unemployed beneficiaries\u2019 job seeker agreements is also opposed by the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EClause 36 provides that unemployed beneficiaries may be required to undertake \u201Cpre-benefit activities\u201D\u2014for example, looking for work or attending job search seminars\u2014before they become entitled to the benefit. Again, the Green Party sees nothing wrong with that in itself. However, the bill provides that the Ministry of Social Development does not have to process the benefit application until the activity has been completed, and that the requirement to undertake a pre-benefit activity can be oral or written. These provisions have the potential to cause significant delays in the processing of benefit applications, and consequent hardship for applicants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAlthough this bill has some provisions that the Green Party supports, the overall thrust is one of inflexibility, insufficiency, and coercion. We will be seeking to move amendments at all possible stages of the parliamentary process, in an attempt to improve what is at the moment a bill that, overall, further undermines the ability of our welfare system to reduce poverty. It is a real pity that this Government appears, at a number of levels, to continue to see itself as being in a bidding war with National to see who can blame and harass beneficiaries the most, rather than being a party that stands up for fundamental principles of dignity, sufficiency, and equity, in its administration of the country\u2019s social security system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022b871c6ac984c4a8ea2555b0a6aaa12f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b871c6ac984c4a8ea2555b0a6aaa12f4\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. The Social Security Amendment Bill has at its core a move by the Government to focus on beneficiaries by claiming the value\u2014the absolute necessity\u2014of people participating in the labour market and engaging in work as an appropriate outcome. At the same time, the bill states that the Government will continue to provide social and financial support for people with temporary or long-term barriers to work. It also appears to have as a consequential outcome a greater involvement by the State in the lives of vulnerable people. It does this under the guise of creating a more efficient support system to enable them to receive that to which they are entitled. We are very concerned about the increased surveillance of particular groups by the State in the face of increased freedom for others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe bill contains a second clever move by the Government. In focusing on encouraging people to think of work\u2014something the M\u0101ori Party would support\u2014a critical question is not asked: what sort of work are we talking about? Is it the sort of work where people have to aspire to succeed in a low-wage economy, where people shift their sights from the peaks of the beneficiary mountain to the peaks of the mountains of the working poor? This is the working poor that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs frequently refers to as a positive outcome\u2014the part-time, the seasonal, the low-paid workers, and the poor work conditions. \u201CGet a job.\u201D replaces \u201CHave a life.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWhat this bill, and many others introduced by the Government, fails to acknowledge is that every aspect of the economy is interrelated. On the one hand we sit by in this House today and watch $95.7 million being spent on reforming the social support system to supposedly create a work-focused system, and on the other hand we close our eyes to the fact that not one cent will go towards the creation of jobs that people want to get out of bed for\u2014not one cent to enable the establishment of meaningful, adequately paid, secure employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThis House must be alert to the fact that changes made in one area inevitably impact on others. The social security system is linked to the wage rates, is linked to tax exemptions, is linked to capital gains, and is linked to foreign exchange earnings. Not only do we have this Social Security Amendment Bill but yesterday we also had the first reading of the Appropriation (2005/06 Financial Review) Bill, and last evening the Taxation (Annual Rates, Savings Investment, and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill was sped through under urgency. All these bills are related. They are all part of the whakapapa\u2014the genealogy\u2014of economics. Our question asks whose whakapapa it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EMembers should not get me wrong: we believe in the necessity of the safety net of the social security system, with its honourable intentions. We believe that it is right and proper that the State supports our most vulnerable citizens, to ensure that all New Zealanders have the right to enjoy quality of life. But, unfortunately, for too many of us it has had negative consequences, in that people have become entangled in that safety net. For some families that entanglement is now seen to be normal\u2014indeed, almost a right. We in the M\u0101ori Party say that nobody has the right to be entangled in the welfare net of dependency or to see the entanglement as a right. And no society or Government has the right to promote such a view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe need to have a very good look at what we are doing here. What has happened here in Aotearoa to our people, who are the constituents, is no different from what has happened to other indigenous people where the safety net has become a welfare trap. As a result, people have become alienated from contributing positively to their own economic health, wealth, and development. The values of the \u201CI\u201D and the \u201Cme\u201D society have corrupted our traditional obligations to share resources and care. Is it the case in some families that our traditional values of sharing and caring become interpreted as \u201Cbuying the booze for our teenagers\u201D, \u201Csharing the joint\u201D, or \u201Cpartying with the cuzzies\u201D while the little ones are left to fend for themselves? This is an absolute corruption of what we for so long have considered to be our taonga tuku iho\u2014those treasures handed down. This bill does nothing to address that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe in the M\u0101ori Party have an acute interest in, and a commitment to, having our people actively involved in the real economy and being positive contributors to it, rather than being passive recipients and beneficiaries of the welfare State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill going to the Social Services Committee, but we say to the House that the debate on this bill is just as much about economic philosophy and direction as it is about social development and direction. The simple fact of the matter is that every economic relationship is also a social relationship, and we cannot continue to have the silo mentality of divorcing one from the other. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022d81019590bb044eca231d0fdd3e05369\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d81019590bb044eca231d0fdd3e05369\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future for the first reading of the Social Security Amendment Bill. We are certainly prepared to support what appears to be a substantial amendment to the Society Security Act. The bill also appears to contain some very interesting new provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future would like to signal some issues of concern, and we look forward to hearing from submitters on them. Firstly, we will be interested to hear what people think about the new clarification and definition of what constitutes full-time employment. Secondly, we will be interested to hear from people regarding the decision to no longer allow people on the unemployment benefit to use community activities as employment interventions. I understand from briefing papers that there is evidence suggesting that such activities have demonstrated negative employment outcomes. If that is true, then so be it. But when people have been out of work for a considerable period of time, it is often very difficult for them to demonstrate a work ethic to prospective employers. I have personally seen folk who can turn up every morning as a volunteer to a community project finally get work due to a reference from project leaders who clarify their keenness to work and their reliability, even when they are not being paid. So I look forward to hearing evidence and being convinced that this is the right move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI am interested to hear about how this amendment bill will work for self-employed people who struggle to take an income off a new and struggling business. I understand there are some provisions around that. I also note that there are provisions to better support those caring for other people\u2019s children\u2014and members will know that United Future has been the proverbial dripping tap in the Minister\u2019s ear in advocating for kinship caregivers, particularly grandparents raising grandchildren. We are yet to have clarified by the ministry whether the provisions I just mentioned apply to this type of caregiver. We certainly hope that they do and that there is some improvement for people who take on those responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe other area of interest for us relates to changes to the independent youth benefit. United Future has always been concerned about the early encouragement for young people to become beneficiaries. If a minor needs to be cared for outside of the home, then payment should be made to the carer, not to the young person. However, we accept the concerns that this amendment bill is trying to address regarding young people who are discharged from the care of Child, Youth and Family, often before they finish high school, and young people who at the age of 16 or 17 would like to stay with their caregivers, who would be keen to keep them but want some support to help them do that. That is a really important issue that needs further discussion, and I will be interested to hear submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EReducing the stand-down provisions raises some questions about the practical realities of temporary assistance, as currently experienced by Work and Income staff, measured against concerns about encouraging people to recklessly move out of work, without serious consequence. Again, we look forward to hearing discussion on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe are pleased to see new provisions to backdate benefits where recipients have been given erroneous advice by the department. I personally have come across a number of people who were given the wrong advice, and there were some weeks when they would have been entitled to a benefit that they did not receive. So considering the bills and debts they often accrue during that time, it is very fair that there is some retrospective payment to cover those errors made by the department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI look forward to hearing from officials about why parents who lose custody of a dependent child will still receive another 8 weeks of benefit. There may be some good reasons for that, but they are not clear to me yet. I am sure we will get explanations around that. United Future believes that the benefit system should be work-focused where that is appropriate, so we are very happy to support the first reading of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002212039b7cfd13409db354f3997ec8728a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Social Security Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 115\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00227170fc8f46134533ab8b718431d061ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227170fc8f46134533ab8b718431d061ad\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment: I move, That the Social Security Amendment Bill be referred to the Social Services Committee, and that the committee finally report back the bill to the House on or before 30 April 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224feebabd78ed4919b62cefc1f0ad0650\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 115\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a6c434d54bd403f8774418bb738dba2\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc9138131ae44310b773e777eb4d94d5\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b738bde7029f4de1b221d2f8964109a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b738bde7029f4de1b221d2f8964109a4\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E The urgency motion on the floor of the House is rapidly running out. We have one more bill to deal with, then we go into the adjournment debate. I seek leave of the House, during the adjournment debate, to extend the debate until its completion, even if we get to the tea break. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213b5209867164dd889f1bff261069e15\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken by the House? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221605f9f0438f44e0ab8cb85c63893a2e\u0022\u003EMental Health Commission Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022158132dbc49d4f5987cfd55a4afd56f2\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00223c1f4ea0baf74174b42e961a5d19a3aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c1f4ea0baf74174b42e961a5d19a3aa\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: I move, That the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time it is the Government\u2019s intention that the bill be considered by the Health Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis bill extends the term of the Mental Health Commission until 2015. It revises the functions of the commission and brings the commission\u2019s terms in office into line with the Crown Entities Act 2004. Once enacted, the bill will repeal and replace certain sections of the Mental Health Commission Act 1998. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe commission was originally established in response to the recommendations of the 1996 Mason report, the culmination of an inquiry under section 47 of the Health and Disability Services Act 1993 in respect of certain mental health services. It began work in September 1996 and was established as a Crown entity, with a term of 5 years under the 1998 Act. The commission was established to ensure implementation of the national mental health strategy by monitoring and reporting on the performance of the sector. It was also tasked with reporting to reduce discrimination and stigma and promoting workforce training and development. The term of the commission has been extended twice\u2014once in 2000 and again in 2003. The commission is currently due to expire, in legislation, on 31 August 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis bill repeals section 10 of the principal Act and substitutes a new section 10. It amends section 13 of the principal Act. Part 2 details the transitional provisions in relation to the commission. Considering the support expressed by stakeholders in this sector for the retention of the commission and the important role that the commission has played in supporting development of the mental health sector, this bill is important legislation that will allow the commission to continue to serve the mental health sector well into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThis bill, which proposes the retention of the commission until 2015 and revises its functions to support the future direction of the sector, is a good indication of this Government\u2019s wish to promote and protect the health and well-being of New Zealanders, in another positive step forward in the ongoing maintenance of an efficient, innovative, and exciting mental health sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u00224c411eeb7e894f95b4dc076e3497cde4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c411eeb7e894f95b4dc076e3497cde4\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to rise to speak in support of the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill. National sees a role for the Mental Health Commission in monitoring and improving the New Zealand mental health system, and, as such, we wish to see the bill proceed to its first reading. The Mental Health Commission has done much over the past few years to destigmatise mental illness and raise public awareness. It performs some very good work, and, as a result, the general public now has a greater appreciation of just how common the symptoms of mental illness can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe National Party believes that there is indeed some real work to be done in mental health. The fact is that mental illness has a significant impact on the lives of New Zealanders, and that burden is growing, not decreasing. According to the New Zealand mental health survey released in September, nearly half of all New Zealanders will meet the criteria for having a mental illness at some time during their lives. One in five New Zealanders experienced a mental illness in the previous year, and that does not take into account the 0.3 percent of the population who suffer from mental illnesses with psychotic features. The survey also found that 16 percent of New Zealanders had thought seriously about suicide. About 5 percent had made a suicide plan, and 4 percent had attempted suicide. These are serious statistics indeed and are worthy of some consideration by members opposite rather than continued ad hominem attacks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe reality is that under this shameful Labour Government, spending on mental health has increased by 75 percent since 1999 to nearly $1 billion per annum, yet there is no measurable improvement in the mental health of the nation. In fact, mental health statistics seem to be deteriorating. It is important to keep the focus on spending\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022932aa450531c4f0fb2c0edbdde6c7c26\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc85205ad8d14bd8b32b68216d63aa14\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: The member may laugh during this, but this is a very serious matter for many New Zealanders. Mr Mallard can smile and laugh, but this is something that the House should be considering. Members opposite might want to listen to some of this; it does not reflect well on their failure to actually take this seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EBut I digress. It is important to keep the focus on the spending of taxpayer money in the mental health sector in the most effective manner possible. There has been a lot of money spent by this Government on strategic plans, studies, and bureaucracy, but the reality is that the money is not being targeted effectively. The Minister of Health needs to concede that the management of mental health services and the targeting of funds in this sector are not delivering the results New Zealanders deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe recent Commonwealth Fund report into primary care in seven OECD nations surveyed the views of primary-care doctors. When it came to ability to care for patients with mental health problems, less than half the New Zealand practices surveyed felt that they were well prepared. The National Party believes that we need to be looking to primary care\u2014[Interruption] Mr Assistant Speaker, if these members want to continue their conversation would they like to do it outside, because this is a serious matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d25d15a050149cb9db39cd4b71b7311\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say to the members on my right that I would like them to look at Speaker\u2019s ruling 57/3(1) by Speaker Statham. Interjections are to be rare and reasonable, and, as a former colleague used to say, witty. There are too many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec52221c87f44bf2ad115f001880eece\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think, given the member\u2019s recent history, it is a bit on the nose for him to invite members on this side to step outside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263671e4b2e9e49e49ef20a9292541a00\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member did such a thing, then he should withdraw and apologise, but if he did not, I will take the member\u2019s word. He is an honourable member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d47aecf33aeb4f0490395c4d7b6ac572\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I have nothing to withdraw and apologise for, but I make the point that with Mr Mallard\u2019s history he might want to listen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d18716066ca24cb9b08c2098f2dd99fc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Just get on with the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabdc95793324b9d91d51a9d9e4b7161\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: OK. [Interruption] Mr Assistant Speaker, do you think I should request to be heard in silence? This is a serious matter. There are people out there who want to listen to this speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022322da263ea8e4562bd5192eb0b94a101\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can seek leave for that. He is perfectly entitled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c57589194bc847789d7ad4ccd164dbd0\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for this speech to be heard in silence. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a91d1d392fc4ec4b4336f119490e690\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can require it if he wants to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b39e7c15f6fb4e5dacb8c18d2cdbefce\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I require it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddc3f12640bc421c8b57e53d5606537f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has asked for silence, and I ask other members to oblige.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cbd907df8f54156a6d6060add8202a7\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. The recent Commonwealth Fund report into primary care in seven OECD nations surveyed the views of primary-care doctors. When it came to the ability to care for patients with mental health problems, less than half the New Zealand practices surveyed felt that they were well prepared. The National Party believes that we need to be looking to primary care to take on more of the workload in mental health, but to do so, general practices need the resources and training to operate effectively. We would like to see the Mental Health Commission pushing the Government on this, playing a major role in monitoring the subsequent outputs, and providing an objective assessment of the success of such projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EHospitalisations for attempted suicides are a good indicator of the mental health of a nation, and the reality is that they have gone up by almost 20 percent since Labour came into power. If one looks at the hospitalisation rate for suicide attempts made by young women since 1999, one sees that they have risen by 45 percent. Suicide attempt statistics represent measurable outcomes in mental health, and by those criteria this Government is failing the public in the management of the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis Government could be doing much more to target the needs of those affected by mental illness. The Government has talked up its 10-year action plan for mental health, Te K\u014Dkiri, and put an emphasis on prevention, but it is all spin and waffle. The specifically listed action for promotion and prevention in the Government\u2019s new 10-year mental health plan is to spend 3 years reviewing the strategic framework, to develop a new framework to develop a plan to set out a strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EWorkforce development is a major issue in mental health. Earlier this year the Otago District Health Board had to pay out $60,000 to two experienced enrolled nurses in order to remove them from their jobs, following a Ministry of Health reminder that enrolled nurses cannot work in acute care. Mental health nursing is an area where experience is what really counts. All this meant was that the Otago District Health Board ended up two nurses short in acute mental health, and it cost the board $60,000 to arrive at that lamentable situation. A major problem in this sector is that the level of qualification for staff is being raised, thereby excluding many experienced mental health workers. Not only are the staff not available but even if they were, many mental health providers could not afford to employ them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThen there is the disgraceful mess over the Lake Alice Hospital compensation payout. Michael Cullen has admitted that Cabinet decided to withhold some of the compensation awarded to claimants as a result of the inquiry into Lake Alice Hospital. Continued delays in paying out compensation to Paul Zentveld, a claimant in the case, are completely unsatisfactory. After experiencing outrageous treatment at Lake Alice Hospital, the claimants agreed to settle with the Ministry of Health in two separate compensation rounds. Mr Zentveld had $35,000 secretly lopped off his compensation payment by the Ministry of Health and found out about it quite by chance. He took the ministry to court and he won. Rather than paying up with good grace, this Government is appealing against the decision in the High Court. This is obviously because the Minister knows that the implication of this decision is that up to $3 million will need to be paid to the other second-round claimants who had part of their compensation secretly withheld. This Government keeps droning on about social justice, but when it gets the chance to actually apply some, it ducks for cover. Minister Hodgson needs to stop dodging the issue, write the cheque to Mr Zentveld, and pay back any money that his ministry rightfully owes the 87 other second-round claimants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EFurthermore, there are issues around the mental health blueprint and the funding being applied by various district health boards in fulfilling the blueprint. It is clear that adult and forensic services are being funded to the levels the blueprint dictates, but other areas such as child and adolescent services are falling woefully behind. Yet, at the same time, district health boards are underspending their ring-fenced mental health money to the tune of $18 million a year, much of it in Auckland. Something is grossly wrong here. Mismanagement in the mental health sector is rife. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ESo all is not as well as it might be in the mental health sector. There is much work for the Mental Health Commission to do, because this Government is spending more and more on mental health but the results are not getting any better. We think the Mental Health Commission has a real future. There are some people of real ability and knowledge at the commission who have extensive knowledge of the mental health system. We think the commission could have a wider role to play, however. We would like to see the commission doing more to hold this Government to account, by speaking out on its performance in mental health. The commission needs to be more demanding of this Government in terms of mental health outcomes. National would want to see the commission monitoring district health board spending in the mental health arena, measuring outputs objectively, and ensuring that the public money spent in mental health really is making a difference to the health of all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EWe feel, however, that an extension of the life of the commission to 2015 is excessive. Public spending should produce results, and we would support the extension of the life of the commission until the end of 2009, at which time its output should once again be reviewed. The commission should in no way feel threatened by this, because National supports the work that it does. However, what gets measured gets done, and we feel that a further review of the work of the commission in 3 years\u2019 time is entirely reasonable. The National Party looks forward to working with the commissioners while in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6f5ba5b97ca4c299e3e281b9ee32041\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6f5ba5b97ca4c299e3e281b9ee32041\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that New Zealand First supports the first reading of the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill. It is a very short bill, and we will be taking only a very short call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThis bill is needed to amend the Mental Health Commission Act, so that the term of the Mental Health Commission can be extended to 2015, and so that there can be extensions to the functions of the Mental Health Commission. The current Mental Health Commission should end its term in August 2007; we do not want this to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThe Mental Health Commission is a very important body. It provides many important functions to very many people right throughout New Zealand. We understand that there has been extensive consultation with the mental health sector and mental health consumers. They want the Mental Health Commission retained, and they approve of the changes to its functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand needs and wants the development of an integrated, effective, and efficient system of care for mental health. We need to protect the well-being of New Zealand. New Zealand First believes that the Mental Health Commission has a very real future, and we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u00229db47619a838417289351a24cb4c63cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229db47619a838417289351a24cb4c63cc\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is, like everyone else in this House, delighted to support the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill. We think that the Mental Health Commission has been a real success story. It has been a really independent, respected, and credible voice, and we strongly support its continuance. The Health Committee has had some dealings with the Mental Health Commission over the last 6 years. We have been impressed by the calibre of its submissions and its advice. I think it is a good model to have an independent voice in an area like this. I might say that there was another public health commission, which, regrettably, was disbanded some years ago. I think that is unfortunate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAs previous speakers have said, it is extraordinary that mental illness is so prevalent in New Zealand, and continuing to rise. It calls into question much about our society that we have such a very high rate of mental illness. But, also, there still is a huge stigma and lack of understanding around mental illness. The Mental Health Commission has done some excellent work in some recent campaigns in this area, which I think is contributing a significant amount to reducing the stigma, but there is a major amount of work to be done still. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt is true that we hear terrible stories about what is happening to some people who are suffering from mental illness in our communities, and also about the crisis among mental health workers. There is a huge amount to be done in this sector, and for that reason we are absolutely delighted to support the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill and to extend the functions and life of the commission. As I say, I think it has earned the support of all members of this House, and indeed of New Zealanders. It has been a genuinely independent, respected, and credible voice in this area. It has earned its keep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4c85c5b03554dc88bcb7065f5ec773e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4c85c5b03554dc88bcb7065f5ec773e\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tau katoa, meri Kirihimete ki a t\u0101tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn looking for a k\u014Drero on which to start a discussion on this bill I came across these words: t\u0113nei te k\u0101kano ka ruia nei, morimoritia kia pu\u0101wai ai hei maunga ringa m\u0101 ng\u0101 whakatipuranga. This is the seed that was sown, then nurtured to blossom forth, to be held as a prized possession for the generations to follow. I think the general gist of this k\u014Drero is that we must always consider the next generation. The flourishing of our mental health and well-being, the growth of our spiritual foundation, our wairua, the strength of the metaphysical, the hinengaro, the blooming of the ng\u0101kau, our emotional strength, is essential to the prosperity of the people. Our future generations will be better if their mental health is in good shape. We really need to consolidate and give shape to families who value mental health and who see that as a part of their pathway forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is because of these beliefs that the M\u0101ori Party is delighted to support the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill, to extend the term of the commission until 2015. On 8 October this year, before the ink was dry on the media release, my humble colleague Tariana Turia was quick to commend the health Minister Pete Hodgson for announcing this legislation to extend the term of the commission. We have valued the work of the Mental Health Commission, which has done much good work on the implementation of Te T\u0101huhu, the mental health strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party wants to put on record our appreciation and recognition of kaum\u0101tua Denis Simpson and the commissioners Ruth Harrison, Mary O\u2019Hagan, and Ray Watson of Ng\u0101i Tahu and Te \u0100tiawa. I want to mihi to the excellent quality of these people. I know of the work of Ray Watson through his previous role as chief executive of Lakeland Health in Rotorua and Taup\u014D. Denis Simpson of Ng\u0101ti Awa has an impressive reputation as chairman of Te Kaunihera Kaum\u0101tua Taurahera Council, the Wellington Council of Elders; Ruth Harrison has considerable experience across the disabilities sector; and of course Mary O\u2019Hagan is extremely well known in the mental health field, having initiated the mental health service user movement in New Zealand in the late 1980s and having been the first president of the World Federation of Psychiatric Users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EI have taken time to touch on the credibility of these members and the expertise they bring to their work, the extensive clinical, professional, and managerial experience they demonstrate in the mental health sector, and the unique set of skills they bring to this role, because it reflects on the strength of this commission. This is a commission that is truly independent, a commission that is not afraid to call it as it sees it, but does what is required, giving free and frank advice to the Minister. I must say that the question of independence is always an area of concern for the M\u0101ori Party with these sorts of bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOne of the most crucial functions of the commission is the monitoring role. This bill places too many constraints on this role of the commission. We believe that amendments need to be made to the bill to strengthen the monitoring role, and to make it more in line with the current Act, including monitoring the performance of the key agencies, including district health boards and the Ministry of Health. We are particularly concerned about the two qualifiers included in this bill that act to constrain monitoring to only when the Ministry of Health agrees to it. From our point of view, this is a Clayton\u2019s style of monitoring. We have seen this before, across Government. If we cast our memories back to the distant days when closing the gaps was a priority, the House will recall the raft of reports and projects called for, under the heading that never even made the light of day. Te Puni K\u014Dkiri was caught in the crossfire in the advice that it was obliged to give, in the name of free, frank, and fearless advice. But the constraints became apparent when the Ministers or the ministries that were subject to its monitoring felt that the criticism was too harsh, too critical, or too bad. So somewhere in the bowels of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri there is a whole series of closing the gaps reports that are going nowhere fast. I reckon that this would be quite a good item for a select committee inquiry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut I come back to the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill. The qualifiers in this bill need to be taken out. The commission must maintain its independent oversight and monitoring watchdog role. It will not be able to do this under the provisions of the bill\u2014to be independent of Government agencies\u2014if its very work programme is constrained by the approval of the Ministry of Health. Indeed, we believe that it would be very useful to explore the notion that the commission should have a statutory role under the Mental Health Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere are three purposes for this: firstly, to maintain people\u2019s rights; secondly, to maintain services delivered; and, thirdly, to report back. There would be a need for a consequential amendment to the Mental Health Act, but it is certainly an idea that we would like to see given further life during the progress of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThere is no denial that the sector greatly values the independence, the autonomy, and the fresh perspective brought to the mental health field through the work of the Mental Health Commission, in particular the development of its blueprint for mental health services\u2014a plan that sets targets for resourcing and services for mental health consumers. This has been invaluable and well received by consumers and providers alike. They have played a significant role in tackling stigmatisation and expanding services for people with mental health issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn mid-year we brought to the House the study published in The Lancet, which reported a significant level of self-reported experiences of racial discrimination by M\u0101ori, of M\u0101ori, Pacific, and Asian New Zealanders, including verbal and physical abuse and unfair treatment in health care, work, and housing. The study showed that M\u0101ori were almost 10 times more likely to experience discrimination in three or more settings than their non-M\u0101ori counterparts, and that further, they were more likely than Europeans to report low mental health. In this context the courage that the Mental Health Commission has shown in speaking up for the rights of the vulnerable is admired. We all have a part to play in addressing this. We, the M\u0101ori Party, are stepping up to the mark, and next year we will be putting forward a bill to address institutional racism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, while I am not a sailing man, I came across a k\u014Drero recently that I think is very thought-provoking. I believe that it was a Te Arawa person who said it. This is what he said: \u201CThe pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist expects it to change, the leader adjusts the sails.\u201D It was a Te Arawa person who said that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe believe that the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill helps to address the fundamental issues associated with the treatment and response to mental health in Aotearoa. It is not perfect by any means, and we look forward to the select committee process to ensure that the necessary changes are made. If they are not, then the M\u0101ori Party will be back to this Chamber with Supplementary Order Papers in the Committee stage, to ensure that the bill can truly support the very important work of the Mental Health Commission. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5ccfc12691a4f6f8b92fdfe94a47ab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5ccfc12691a4f6f8b92fdfe94a47ab2\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of United Future to speak in support of the first reading of the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill. As the M\u0101ori Party member was keen to mention some of the fine staff who work for the commission, I would also like to state that United Future is thrilled that Selwyn K\u0101tene is now the general manager of the Mental Health Commission. We believe he will be a great contributor to the work of the commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThis bill is pretty straightforward, in that it restates the functions of the commission and adds some new functions to the list regarding the mandate under which it serves. First of all, there are some general understandings about the commission needing to be independent. It is a client-focused honest broker that wants to make sure the interests of mental health patients are constantly advocated for and listened to. It is a place where people who have experienced mental health services, and would like to suggest ways in which those services can be better delivered, can contribute and send their ideas to someone who will listen seriously and take their advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EObviously, one of the key roles of the commission is advocacy. It also works as a facilitator, helping organisations to collaborate their efforts more cohesively, and communicating on that matter. Also, one of the most important roles I have seen the commission working in is the area of communicating within the community and breaking down the areas of stigmatisation that people suffering from mental health problems often incur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOne of the things we need to understand when considering the relevance of the commission is how essential its work is. I have read statistics that show that at any given time, about 3 percent of our population is in need of mental health services. When we do the maths around what we currently deliver in mental health services, we find only half that number are accessing help. That means there is a lot more work to be done. Certainly, the last thing we need to have is a downgrading of a commission that was set up to make sure that the Government is constantly held to account by the people who most need that help and support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThere are also some interesting ideas around stimulating innovation amongst policy makers, and also around the ability to undertake research where that is considered helpful. I agree with the National Party about the fact that we want to see a real movement in mental health services towards better services in the primary health care area. I remember that when the Hon Annette King was Minister of Health, she indicated that there was some funding in the pipeline for primary mental health care. It was on her \u201Cto do\u201D list, and high up on that list, as part of the funding to primary health organisations. I am keen to hear the new Minister reiterate that commitment, because I think it is an area that we currently do not do well in. Certainly, primary health care in regard to this matter is really the fence at the top of the cliff, but we need to see better service provision put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EI do not think I will take any more of the House\u2019s time on this matter, other than to say we are very supportive of this first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022da42cd82471f47d3a206a7aece765399\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da42cd82471f47d3a206a7aece765399\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the first reading of the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill on behalf of ACT New Zealand. ACT will be opposing this bill, but not for reasons that might immediately be apparent. There are two main reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EBut firstly I would like to address the barrage that Dr Coleman had to contend with when he was trying to discuss some very important issues relating to mental illness. I think that Labour members have shown that they have very little understanding of mental health issues in this debate. Mr Mallard, who has never shown any interest in mental health issues before, stood up and spoke on behalf of his party. He did not even manage to fill his 10-minute slot in speaking about what good work the Mental Health Commission might or might not have done, but instead took the opportunity, when he sat down, to then lead a barrage from his Labour colleagues about Dr Coleman. Luckily, I was sitting very close to Dr Coleman and could hear what he was saying; he had some very valid points to make. The Labour members that participated in that very shameful behaviour should apologise to those people in New Zealand who suffer from the very serious consequences of mental illness. If those members had something to say to Dr Coleman, then they should not have said it when the proceedings of this bill were taking place. [Interruption] I am ashamed to be part of a House that thinks that that sort of behaviour\u2014the sort of behaviour that we are hearing right now\u2014is participated in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234673aac993d436c81e48dfa4a061498\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would ask the member to address the bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c5159ee396c40a8993b940f0a9387a6\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will. I am coming back to the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill, which is a very important bill, I have to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand opposes this bill, firstly, because a mental health commission should not be necessary if the mental health division of the Ministry of Health were doing its job properly. I see in the explanatory note of this bill that the Mental Health Commission\u2019s role is being expanded, and our opposition to this bill is no reflection at all on the very good work, particularly in the area of research, that the Mental Health Commission does. But this bill is not necessary because that work should be being done by the mental health division of the Ministry of Health. The commission\u2019s role is being expanded so that it will now advise and report to the Minister on the implementation of the national mental health strategy\u2014something that those working in the mental health division of the Ministry of Health should already be doing\u2014and, secondly, it will now promote and facilitate collaboration and dialogue about mental health issues. Again, that is a role specifically for the Ministry of Health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe second reason that ACT New Zealand is opposing this bill concerns a matter that M\u0101ori Party members have raised, and I support them wholeheartedly in that matter. They worry, very clearly, about the independence of the Mental Health Commission. The commission consists of three commissioners and 16 core staff, and seven members on the advisory committee, as well\u2014and they are appointed by the Ministry of Health. The commission\u2019s independence, then, is very much in doubt. If we are to have a Mental Health Commission\u2014and it is clear that this bill will go to a select committee, because ACT is the only party opposing it\u2014then these things need to be taken into consideration. I would urge the Health Committee, when it considers this bill, to consider very carefully the issue of the independence of this commission, and to write those relevant clauses into this legislation specifically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThere is a great deal of difficulty with the area of mental health in this country. Three percent of the population at any one time requires treatment for a mental illness. That is quite a high proportion, but it is consistent with that in other populations around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe main problem in the area of mental health is that of workforce shortages. Doctors and nurses are being recruited constantly, particularly in the area of mental health\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and it is a pity that, again, Labour members cannot see fit to listen carefully to this debate, when we have people in this country suffering badly from mental illness. Locums are the norm in many psychiatric departments in the hospitals around this country\u2014not locums who come and spend any length of time in New Zealand but, frequently, locums from America and the United Kingdom. They are well-trained locums, but they come, usually, for a period of only 3 to 6 months. If any area requires continuity of care, it is the area of mental health, and having continuity of care is one of the big problems in relation to the workforce shortages experienced in the psychiatric area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAs one other speaker also alluded to\u2014I think it was Dr Coleman\u2014I, too, lament the inability of well-experienced, enrolled nurses to work in this sector any longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc15a276e20432e864b34ee1cc31aa2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, but would members please keep their private conversations at a level that enables the member to be heard. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b10f90e64844880bc9d34219cbef2ba\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Enrolled nurses have been completely sidelined so that they are now able to work only either under the supervision of registered nurses in general practice\u2014which precludes many of them, because some practices do not employ registered nurses\u2014or in the area of aged care. The mental health sector was propped up very well and very ably by experienced enrolled nurses. Those nurses had a lot of skill and many, many years\u2014in some cases, up to 20 years\u2014of experience in the area of mental health. Sadly, that is a great loss to the mental health sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EBlueprint issues and district health board underspending are also of great concern. Those should not be issues that have to be looked at and commented on solely by a mental health commission. Again, they are areas that should be looked at by the mental health division of the Ministry of Health, and it seems that this is not the case. One billion dollars, nearly 10 percent of the health budget, is now spent on psychiatric care\u2014the care of the mentally ill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe Mental Health Commission is due to expire on 31 August 2007. It should not be necessary to extend that term because, in the first instance, the commission was put in as a short-term measure. The role that it has played should have been picked up and run with by the Ministry of Health. Unfortunately that has not been the case, so we will have, effectively, a doubling up of people, a doubling up of numbers, and a doubling up of roles, because the Ministry of Health is failing in its mission to provide adequate care for those with mental illnesses in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand opposes this bill for the two reasons I have pointed out: firstly, the lack of independence of the commission and, secondly, the fact that the commission should not be necessary if the Ministry of Health were ably carrying out its role in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226522b8204ebe4c8f89019a5f70bbca31\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 119\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 50; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000648\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Health Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aadee861527741d6832d795d6037fbc1\u0022\u003EAdjournment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002235bc3c4ec50b4a88ab50c9dff34c55c3\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022763114f0dea2418e9aa3c6ca96539f59\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1706d8f601145da8d7701718eb9a904\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1706d8f601145da8d7701718eb9a904\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House do now adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 February 2007, and that the sitting days in 2007 be as follows:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EFebruary 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 27, and 28;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMarch 1, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 27, 28, and 29;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EApril 3, 4, and 5;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMay 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 10, 15, 16, 17, 22, 23, and 24;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EJune 12, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, 26, 27, and 28;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EJuly 17, 18, 19, 24, 25, and 26;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAugust 7, 8, 9, 14, 15, 16, 21, 22, and 23;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESeptember 4, 5, 6, 11, 12, 13, 18, 19, and 20;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOctober 9, 10, 11, 16, 17, 18, 23, 24, and 25;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ENovember 6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, and 22;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EDecember 4, 5, and 6;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003Eand that the House do, at its rising on Thursday, 6 December 2007, adjourn until Tuesday, 11 December 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ECould I begin, Madam Speaker, by congratulating you on your year. Your cool\u2014at times, icy\u2014wit is starting, I think, to exert some control, even over those who are not used to having women in control of them. I also congratulate Mr Deputy Speaker on his always courteous manner within the House, the Assistant Speakers\u2014and particularly I call upon the honourable Ross Robertson in that respect\u2014the Clerk\u2019s Office, the Hansard staff, the messengers, the security staff, our secretaries, ministerial staff, research units, media staff, and anybody who I have missed out in that long list, because I am sure there is somebody who does not come within those particular categories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis year, 2006, has been a fascinating year. We can look at the achievements made in just the last 2 or 3 days. The Government has put out an energy strategy. The Government has passed a tax bill, which Bill English admitted yesterday that National tried to do but could not get it through Parliament\u2014could not even get it through its own Government. We put through a major rewriting of the telecommunications legislation. We got a tax discussion document out today on the international tax regime, to fix up the mess that the National Government put in place in 1991. Tomorrow we release a new tertiary education strategy. And that is just from Monday to Thursday. In the meantime, all that National has done is to try to comb its hair in the mirror. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAt the start of the year we had a Government with a secure majority, and two major parties: one centre-left, and one trying to be centre-right but actually veering off to the far right. Now we have a Government with a secure majority and\u2014if we are to believe National\u2014there are two major centre-left parties in Parliament. The centre-right party appears to have disappeared within the last couple of weeks. It is not just a new face; it is a whole new book that we are supposed to believe. Apparently, it is now a Coke versus Pepsi battle, going down to 2008. The trouble is that we are the real thing; they are Pepsi. That is the problem those members will have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe can look at National\u2019s amazing flip-flops. It has been sort of Opposition by press statement and speech. Race \u014Crewa has gone. Nuclear issues are fixed. National is saying: \u201CDo not worry, US, we will not change the policy.\u201D, and on industrial relations, it is saying: \u201CWe are going to keep the current industrial relations Act.\u201D On Iraq National is saying: \u201CWe should never have been there.\u201D, on the Exclusive Brethren it is asking: \u201CWho are they?\u201D, and on tax it is saying: \u201CWe are back with Mr English, too. We will have small incremental changes as we can afford them, and we are fiscally responsible.\u201D Well, I thought that was what I had being saying for the last couple of years. That is Mr English\u2019s bold new policy. He went on Morning Report especially to tell the nation that it was the National Party\u2019s policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOn the issue of climate change, of course, National members are now true believers. But the problem is that that is not what Mr Key has been saying before on climate change. He now says that he firmly believes in climate change and always has, yet he used to say it was all a hoax. It was all a hoax, but now he firmly believes in it. This is a man who firmly believes in a hoax. It is not surprising. He is the only man I know of who can remember not opening one email 18 months or so ago. He must receive very few emails if he can remember that the one he did not open came from the Exclusive Brethren. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOf course, Mr Key has done other flip-flops. He was asked: \u201CDo you think New Zealand should have taken part in the invasion of Iraq?\u201D\u2014to which the appropriate reply is that the Iraqis probably would not have noticed had we done so\u2014but he answered: \u201CNo, I do not. The position from the National Party caucus at the time was that they did not think New Zealand should send combat troops to Iraq. Ah, what we thought was, and what I felt was, that America and the coalition of the willing had the right to take action in Iraq, because at that time the world believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.\u201D In other words, he believed America was right, but he believed that he should not have backed America. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThat is not what Mr English said at the time, because\u2014as Dr Brash now tells us\u2014he sat there silently saying that we should not go, Bill says: \u201CWe would have gone if we had been the Government.\u201D, and John now says: \u201CWe would not have gone.\u201D Well, I do not know whether people can follow all that, but I am completely lost through it all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMr Key is a man who is now, what, 48 or 49. At the time of the Springbok tour he was about 23. That is the kind of age when events impress themselves on us. He has said that he cannot remember the Springbok tour. Why? Because to remember it is to remember that he held a position on the Springbok tour. There was not a single New Zealander who did not have a position on the Springbok tour. Dr Brash was opposed\u2014I can remember that quite well. Mr Key cannot remember. Why? Because it is politically inconvenient for him to remember what he was doing on that particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOn industrial relations, Mr Key said 2 years ago that there was nothing wrong with the Employment Contracts Act. Then he said a couple of days ago that National was not planning to make any major changes to the Employment Relations Act. Well, which is it? Does he back the Employment Contracts Act or does he back the Employment Relations Act? The reason he cannot choose between them is that he does not know what the differences are. He has not thought about it. When someone gets up in the morning and asks himself: \u201CWhat has happened to my Merrill Lynch shares overnight?\u201D, he is greatly disinterested in what happens in employment relations policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that John Key is the man who went to Britain to be told what to do. He came back, and he is David Cameron without the substance\u2014David Cameron without the bicycle and with only the VIP car. That is what he is at the present time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EJohn Key is the man who now makes National\u2019s policy on the hoof. Can people imagine a Labour Party where the leader of the party gets up and, in three speeches, overturns every policy on which the party ran at the last election\u2014just like that! Every statement that Mr Key makes is utterly vague and utterly meaningless. He is a walking billboard, saying no more than three words of any significance, and when he does utter them, they are utterly confused. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhen Mr Key was asked his views on civil unions, he said that he thought the Civil Union Bill was a gay marriage bill. Then, when he was talking to gay people on www.gaynz.com, he said that marriage was not being asked for in the civil union bill. When he was asked how he voted, he had to admit he had voted against it. Did he vote against it because it was a matter of principle? No, he said\u2014look at that! He waves his biro and says \u201CNo\u201D\u2014he voted against it because he thought that was the way to vote to please his electorate. There is a man of conscience! We have a conscience vote and he says: \u201COh look, my conscience is that way. I am this way, but my conscience is that way.\u201D At least Dr Brash pretended he had changed his mind honestly on the process; Mr Key never had a mind on the issue, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhat we had with Don Brash was a lemon curd pretending to be a pavlova. That was Dr Brash as the National Party leader. What we have with John Key is a blancmange pretending to be a fruit salad. That is what we are going to face between now and the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMr Key\u2019s deputy is Bill English, a man who nurtures more grievances than anybody I have ever met in my life. He is a man who will back John Key to the hilt\u2014and if he ever gets the chance, right in it will go, and he will try again to be the leader. He is now saying about John Key exactly what he said about Jenny Shipley. \u201CI will back her all the way through to the next election,\u201D he said about Jenny Shipley, and: \u201CI will back him all the way through to the next election,\u201D he says about John Key\u2014and we already know that it is not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThen there are the all the new disenchanted. Poor Lockwood Smith! He asks one question every day. It is the same question, but it does not matter. Look where he is! He bought a new pair of speedos and he still did not get on to the National Party front bench. He saw Maurice Williamson promoted on the grounds of Maurice\u2019s outstanding performance in the House. Maurice has not asked a single question all year, as far as I can remember, and has given no more than two speeches. Poor old Lockwood Smith has been overtaken by him in the race back to the front bench for all the retreads in the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EHelen Clark and I are now facing our fifth National leader and our seventh National deputy leader. Only a brave person would lay any money on those numbers staying the same between now and the next general election. Roll on No. 6, roll on No. 8, roll on No. 7, and roll on No. 9. Merry Christmas!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00221f77c90c05084bdfbcdf0c1c792a20a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f77c90c05084bdfbcdf0c1c792a20a7\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E That was Michael Cullen\u2019s \u201CI\u2019m 10 percent behind in the polls\u201D speech. Frankly, all it proved is that Michael Cullen needs a holiday, and in 18 months he will get a permanent one. Do not worry about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c757b89728d4186960526633d0372b4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Give us a new one, John!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255402684e43540ea92de48708f931dd3\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Trevor should go back to his stadium. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, I begin by wishing you a very merry Christmas. I also express my gratitude to those who keep Parliament running: you, Madam Speaker; the Deputy Speaker, Clem Simich; the Assistant Speakers, Ann Hartley and Ross Robertson; the Clerk of the House, David McGee; his staff; the select committee personnel; our friends at Bellamy\u2019s; the Hansard writers; the security and parliamentary travel staff; of course, the VIP drivers, who may well save me buying a third Navman in 6 weeks; my colleagues and our long-suffering families; and, of course, the messengers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI say to the messengers that they have served me well in the last 12 months, but I have one message that I will deliver myself. I will not be asking you to deliver it, Madam Speaker. It is to the Government, and the message is a pretty simple one: \u201CEnjoy it, fellas, because you are on borrowed time.\u201D That is for sure. As we saw from Michael Cullen\u2019s speech, their days are numbered. They are a Walkman Government in an iPod world. They are dinosaurs, that is what they are. They are gone. That member does not know what an iPod is, that is the problem. He should plug it into his ears; it would be better than listening to Helen Clark, trust me. This was a Government of leak and spin, smoke and mirrors, and truths and half-truths. The standards were so low the only instruction from the Prime Minister to her MPs was \u201CDon\u2019t get arrested.\u201D, and Taito Phillip Field could not even stick to that one! That was the situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIn 2006 we saw something we had not seen for a long time\u2014Labour\u2019s calculating, self-serving acts were even worse than the harshest critics ever thought possible. Labour members got caught red-handed with their hands in the till for $800,000, and they have spent the entire year refusing to pay the money back. That is what they did. They spent $800,000, and they are refusing to pay it back. The Government came up with a whole lot of excuses. The first of them, from the Prime Minister, was that they had done it twice before, so why could they not have another go! That was a good one. The second one was that it was not electioneering, which, for the record, is defined as soliciting a vote. Now, if giving out a pledge card and saying to people \u201CFollow these policies and vote for me\u201D is not soliciting a vote, I do not know what is. But the best of the excuses came when Helen Clark told the country that the referee had changed the rules after the game had finished. I hate to tell her, but the referee in this case was none other than the co - New Zealander of the year, Auditor-General Kevin Brady, who wrote to her months before the game even started and tried to come and see her to explain the rules exactly. But she was too busy parading overseas in \u201CUN Idol\u201D. That is what she was doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo the Labour Government did what a Labour Government always does. Out came the personal attacks. No one was safe, not even APN, the owners of the New Zealand Herald. They were not safe. Dr Cullen was dispatched to tell the New Zealand Herald in no uncertain terms that if it did not stop writing the truth about that rort, it would have a tax liability bigger than his surplus. Oh, Dr Cullen does not like it. He should not worry. We can give it on this side of the House as well as take it, I tell him. Anyway, it is not surprising. What we found out in October is that Mike Williams went to the Labour Party conference and said that Labour was bankrupt. The next week Helen Clark came out and said that she had discovered a new-found interest in State-funded elections. There is a convenient thing. Well, we have a little tip for the Prime Minister. When she comes back to the House next year and tells us about the merits of State-funded elections, she should spare us the spin on this side of the House, because taxpayers are sick of paying for things that Labour Governments waste their money on, and they sure as hell do not want to pay money to bail out a Labour Government that is bankrupt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhat else happened in 2006? It will be remembered for one thing: the case of Taito Phillip Field. On this side of the House, we have \u201CBob the Builder\u201D. On Labour\u2019s side of the House there is \u201CTaito the Tiler\u201D. The only difference is that on this side of the House we pay market rates for what we get done. So what did Helen Clark do? It was pretty normal, right? She called an inquiry, spent half a million bucks, parked him on the back bench, and told Labour he would be brought back\u2014she has done it dozens of times before. He knew the track. The only problem was that the Ingram report was so bad and left so many unanswered questions that she could never bring him back, so the police were called in. It was all very interesting. We had months of negative headlines, so what happened? The Prime Minister said that they had better find a diversion, so she wandered down to the seventh floor, got her trusty colleague Trevor Mallard, and told him to give Auckland 2 weeks to decide whether it wanted a billion-dollar waterfront stadium. But poor old Trevor could not even manage to get through week one before we had his style of Heineken diplomacy, when he told Aucklanders they were visionless, and by week two it was gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EAnyway, it was not all that bad, because it proved one thing\u2014that Trevor\u2019s career path has now been successfully marked out. He will never be Minister of Finance. We know that one. Mind you, he did not have quite as bad a year as Steve Maharey, who got sacked as the tertiary education Minister and is now the only living New Zealander who believes that when one\u2019s portfolio gets given to Dr Cullen, it is because it is running so well. Michael should not worry; it is a compliment. I say to him that we see the best in everyone, son, so do not worry about that. He might as well enjoy the next few months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt was a kind of interesting year, was it not? Hospital waiting lists were wazoo. Another Budget\u2014Michael Cullen\u2019s night\u2014was sunk by a lack of tax cuts. The Prime Minister went green but forgot to mention that we have emission targets rising faster than Kyoto no-shows Australia and the US. She forgot to tell the country that 85 percent of her new electricity generation is from burning coal and gas and that we are chopping down trees faster than we are planting them. Then she went off to the Labour Party conference and said that the country was going carbon neutral! Her only minor problem was that she forgot to tell David Parker before he did his press conference on Monday. That was a minor issue. Anyway, do not worry, we treat that statement with the same contempt as we do her ambition to get us in the top half of the OECD. Neither of those will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EAnyway, enough of the tired old Labour members; they are yesterday\u2019s news, so to speak. The future does not lie with them; the future lies with the National Party. If I do say so myself, with my leadership and that of my deputy, Bill English, and my incredibly talented team, that is where the future lies. The best years of our country and of our party are in front of us, not behind us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d5d2cbb0184c8ea5e2a17883b99a6f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s another David Cameron line!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ffb7b2a8b340a88a47a41805b8714f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Darren should not worry, he will grow up one day and be a big boy; it is all right. He will get out of nappies\u2014it eventually happens to most of us. Let us take a moment to celebrate some fine New Zealanders who did some wonderful things. We like to look at the best side of things in life. We want to celebrate the entrepreneurs, the creative New Zealanders: Sam Morgan; the fine men and women of 42 Below, who made something work on the world stage and did fantastically well; our sportsmen and sportswomen; and the All Blacks, who had a great year as they defended the Tri-Nations and the Bledisloe Cup, won everything in Europe, and are on their way to winning the Rugby World Cup in 2007. Let us not forget the Black Ferns, who had a great year and won their third successive Women\u2019s Rugby World Cup; the stories of heroism, like that of Hayden Roulston, the cyclist who was diagnosed with a potentially life-threatening, career-ending condition but battled his way back; triumphs over adversity, like that of Jamie Philip and Robert Atua-Toki, who were on a benefit, decided that they did not want any more handouts from Labour, and set up a great business of mobile pizza-making; and everyday New Zealanders like Louis Salt, who has been driving so long for the Cancer Society of New Zealand. There are so many more I could name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI end by saying that the National Party is in cracking shape. National members are ready, willing, and able to serve the country. We have no doubt that we have the team, we have the policies, and we have the commitment. If I do say so myself, it is all going so well that it is almost a shame to take a holiday. Merry Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0b4a3ec2ddc4512a8eb44dd4ad20e47\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022059d343fec3d4d3a94cb0de0a1521e33\u0022\u003ELeaks of emails\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227621e9f50ede4cab8580fabc96f242bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227621e9f50ede4cab8580fabc96f242bf\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a document that was the subject of some misinformation in the House last week, mainly by speakers on behalf of the Government. Their allegation was that Dr Brash had blamed National Party members for certain leaks of emails to Nicky Hager. I want to table a disclaimer to that claim, which was published by the Sunday News last week. For the sake of Hansard, it is only fair that it sits on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002229af3f554c0741649baa28a90fd277f1\u0022\u003EAdjournment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb00f15e225f43a4a201a074bc3f203d\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed23b42e9fed43af877b619cc870d773\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000702\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d41b6336d57f4f7d8bf2009c57865531\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d41b6336d57f4f7d8bf2009c57865531\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the new leader of the National Party has just made the same mistake as his predecessor, Don Brash, and as Dr Cullen has just made. He forgot to acknowledge that National will need a centre party if it wants to move from that side of the Chamber to the Government side. I have to say that I was, frankly, disappointed that Dr Cullen did not recognise or offer some thanks to his confidence and supply partners. We were not even amongst the people given thanks. [Interruption] Oh, it is all right now; I am offended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBut we would like to thank the Labour Party. We needed it in order to get another 1,000 police officers in 2008. We needed it in order to get more support staff. We needed it in order to increase the superannuation return. We needed it in order to support us in the introduction of a golden age card. We needed it in order to achieve some significant increases in funding for ElderCare. We needed the Labour Party in order to get a review of immigration law in this country. We needed it to support us in order to get the minimum wage raised to $12 per hour, by the end of the term. We needed the Labour Party in order to implement some sound New Zealand First policies. We are grateful that it saw the light of day and supported us\u2014even to the degree of getting a review of the Accident Compensation Corporation funding of physiotherapists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe are going home\u2014hopefully safely\u2014for Christmas, as we do every year, and on behalf of New Zealand First, I would like to thank all the support people who assist us in Parliament. I thank you, Madam Speaker, your Deputy Speaker, and your two Assistant Speakers, basically for your fairness and your tolerance\u2014and sometimes, I know, it must strain your tolerance keeping control of this place. We would like to thank the Parliamentary Service staff, the staff of the Clerk of the House, and all the Hansard people, who do such a great job. We also extend our thanks to the messengers, the security staff, and, indeed, Bellamy\u2019s catering staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe also thank our support base, who from time to time are quite critical of New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b34c5dc32914463a0aeec9f9f550ee0\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226120a71c9c7f4427afa52357bab8c0a0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There are so many, Mr Carter, that we would fill the largest stadium in this country if we got them all together at one go. We would particularly like to thank the people who have rung in and emailed us today for taking a positive stance on the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill. There are people who have changed their minds and said that it is right that it should go to select committee. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1acaaaf80d4b4c9bd69d458eaec2ff\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are levels of intervention that are acceptable, and some that are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f190ea0102c342baa27fe7d5dcc6df2d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party members are filled with Christmas cheer, so let them go a little bit. I say to those honourable members over there that they will get their opportunity to pull this bill apart\u2014or put it together\u2014at select committee. But there are members of the public who now recognise that the right thing to do is to send it to select committee so that they can have their say. They might disagree with it, but they will have their say. All day today we have been getting emails and telephone calls from people who share that view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ae996b786b405bab965e75026c398c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022437690d37bdf4f8bb7f2afabd4068b6a\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right. I hope when we depart from this House we will have an enjoyable time. I know that I and my colleagues in New Zealand First intend to. From my point of view, I intend to become somewhat of a couch potato if my wife allows me. [Interruption] I will be playing my fair share of beach cricket and beach volleyball, do not worry about that. I will be back here slim and ready to go next year. But I hope I can sit down and watch some sport on television, particularly British soccer. I hope I can see a match as stimulating as when Arsenal thumped the hell out of Spurs the other night, three nil. I look forward intently to the matches over Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOn a final, serious note, I think we should spare a thought for the fact that some people will get involved in unsafe action, particularly on our roads, at this time. Undoubtedly some young people, in particular, will do something rather foolish on our roads. I urge them, if anybody is listening and concerned, to take it easy. Christmas is a festive season, and life is much more important than driving some car in reckless fashion. I hope\u2014[Interruption] The member over there might think it is quite a frivolous matter. I get quite saddened, as perhaps he can tell, when I think that somebody who is alive right now will be killed on the roads between now and New Year\u2019s Eve, or maybe shortly afterwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt is a sad aspect of Christmas, and we have to spare a thought for those people and the families that are involved with them, and, equally so, for the emergency services\u2014the police and fire brigade, in particular\u2014who will go out while we are enjoying ourselves somewhere in this country and pick up off our roads the pieces and the mess of somebody who has been quite reckless. I ask Parliament to take note that that will unfortunately occur, and it is worth reminding people that there is a sad side to this season. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI hope we all have an enjoyable break, I hope we all come back refreshed, and I hope we all come back prepared to do our very best for this great little country and its people. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u00228046cf30884d478195837f4667ad77b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228046cf30884d478195837f4667ad77b1\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Is it not extraordinary what Christmas can achieve in the House? I have a serious proposal to make, and that is that next year we have Christmas every second week, which will mean that the House will accomplish in 2 days what would normally take 4 or 5! Then we can finish the business of the House in 3 months and all go home for the rest of the year. I have certainly never seen legislation move as fast as it has in the last 2 days. I do not know whether it is because of the media\u2019s Christmas party tonight\u2014I notice they are all off preparing for it\u2014or the attraction of the beach, but it has certainly changed things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe year 2006 was when the New Zealand public, and even, to a small extent, the New Zealand Parliament, caught up with the rest of the world in respect of climate change. It was the year in which the March conference at Victoria University changed hearts and minds. We had international scientists here speaking, we had Al Gore\u2019s movie, and we had Al Gore visiting. All of a sudden the National Party decided that maybe climate change mattered after all and changed its position. I congratulate National on that. There is nothing wrong with changing one\u2019s position and finding that something matters after all. What matters now is what the policy will be, and we will watch for that with great interest. It was also the year in which Labour, having cancelled all its climate change policy last December, started again to write a new one. We are still waiting to see what that will be, though a few inklings have come out in the last week. At the moment both major parties in the House are without a policy on climate change, but we hope that 2007 will take us a lot further in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe year 2006 was when the price of petrol rose to $1.78 a litre, then dropped to $1.40. This is temporary\u2014it will go up again and be over $2 a litre. It was the year when New Zealanders in record numbers left their cars at home and caught public transport, to the point that public transport could not cope; when the trains and buses in Auckland and Wellington were full at rush hour; and when the Government put another $1.5 billion into roads, on top of the ever-increasing road budget that we have anyway. New Zealanders have voted with their bums. They want better public transport, and next year is the year to have it. This was also the year in which greenhouse gases continued to rise inexorably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThis was also the year in which the depths of undemocratic political influence were exposed, not by Nicky Hager but by the email words of Dr Brash and his advisers. The same emails exposed the huge sums from the parliamentary leaders\u2019 budget that the National Party spent on its election campaign in ways that were not audited by the Auditor-General. In 2007 we will have to deal with the question of campaign finance reform and proper election funding if we are to restore a democratic process whereby elections cannot be bought by either side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe year 2006 was when the death of the M\u0101ori Queen united a nation of M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 in recognition of the dignity and aroha of M\u0101oritanga that make us different from every other nation. I have to contrast the effect on the national psyche of the tangi of Dame Te Ata with the effect on the national psyche of the \u014Crewa speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe year 2006 was when the Government moved to break up Telecom\u2019s monopoly over broadband and local lines. The Greens really welcome the fact that that will free up the communication system, which can do a great deal to take us past the age of cheap oil. It was also the year when 10,000 albatrosses and petrels were killed in the New Zealand longline fishery, when 115 Hooker\u2019s sea lions were killed in the fishery, and when bottom trawling continued unabated, with 90 percent of the fishing fleet that destroys thousand-year-old corals in the South Pacific oceans being licensed in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThis was the year that our overseas development assistance rose almost insignificantly to 0.27 percent of gross national income\u2014far short of the OECD average of 0.42 percent and even further away from the official UN target of 0.7 percent. No one line item in the Budget affects the livelihoods and well-being of so many people. The consequences of our lack of generosity are highlighted by the instability that is now being experienced in some parts of the Pacific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt was also the year in which it was reported that the number of overweight people in the world has overtaken the number of malnourished, for the first time. A billion people are considered to be heavier than is healthy for them. While almost one in six of the estimated world population of 6\u00BD billion is now overweight or obese, about 800 million people do not have enough to eat. That is a big challenge for 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt was a good year for the Greens. We have been polling third all year, without exception. We are the only third party that has polled over 5 percent all year without exception, and on the rolling poll we have consistently been a couple of points above our election night numbers. It was the first year that the Greens had the opportunity to run Government programmes\u2014programmes that deliver towards the issues of climate change and healthy homes, that support local manufacturing, and that reduce the balance of payments deficit. Sue Bradford stood up for principle and established clearly that Buy Kiwi Made means \u201CBuy products made in New Zealand.\u201D, and that principle has been established. The solar water heating programme was launched, and by February we will see more solar water heaters going on to Kiwis\u2019 roofs and reductions in electricity use, greenhouse emissions, and the cost of hot water. Tomorrow we are launching the National Energy Efficiency and Conservation Strategy for discussion, which takes another step on issues of climate change and energy. Our budget bids were successful, with significant funding for environmental education in schools and for an organic advisory service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe six of us have eight bills before Parliament at the moment\u2014that is more than one each. Those bills hold out the promise for more flexible working hours to help families; for the protection of our kids from violence by taking away the defence in the Crimes Act for beating children; for a revolution in the way we think about waste; for people with certain medical conditions who cannot be helped by other pharmaceuticals to have the benefits of medicinal cannabis to help them; for mothers in prison to soon be given the chance to bond with their babies; and for young people in the workforce to soon be earning equal pay with adults for equal work. There are many challenges to meet next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI wish all members a very restful break and a happy Christmas. I hope they come back with renewed energy. I thank all the colleagues I have worked with\u2014my Green colleagues and those in other parties. I thank all the parliamentary staff, the messengers, the security people, the library staff, the Bellamy\u2019s staff, the select committee staff, the Clerk\u2019s Office, and\u2014as Michael Cullen said so aptly\u2014all those I have forgotten. Happy Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdba518546a54b23a1396cf4d4f77d49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdba518546a54b23a1396cf4d4f77d49\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E As the newest cab on the rank, when members of the M\u0101ori Party looked on the Order Paper at this motion, we did wonder what we would talk about on the topic of the 2007 sitting programme. What fascinating account from our tribal histories could we share with the House? Was there an appropriate whakatau\u0101ki for today\u2014what was the proverb for the occasion? Our ever helpful whip, Te Ururoa Flavell, came up with: \u201CJanuary, you start the year off fine. February \u2026\u201D\u2014members can fill in the rest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn all seriousness, it is my utmost privilege to speak today of the year that has been and the year that is to come. We have come to this forty-eighth Parliament to be the independent M\u0101ori voice in Parliament that our people were calling for. We believe we have done our best to maintain our traditions, to speak to the issues and policies\u2014not the personalities\u2014and to promote the message that every issue is a M\u0101ori issue. We have been pleased and proud to develop relationships with each and every political party in this Parliament. We have come to every bill charged with our hope to reinvigorate a sense of optimism for a better and more just future. We have raised issues that we know others would rather sweep under the mat. We have respected the advice of the United Nations special rapporteur and taken the time to ensure that this Parliament gives due consideration to the report that criticises the nature and extent of the way in which the Government has responded to indigenous human rights issues\u2014a way that has greatly saddened us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe have also sought to challenge the basis of some initiatives that were deemed untouchable, such as the vexed issues around Treaty settlements. We have taken out the microscope, looked for things M\u0101ori in the Budget, and found them missing. We have searched for the Treaty of Waitangi in the school curriculum\u2014and searched in vain. We have risen in the House to pronounce our profound disappointment at legislation that has worked against the interests of M\u0101ori. But, against all odds, we could not, in our wildest dreams, have known that we would be celebrating 10 years of political leadership from Tariana Turia by the Foreshore and Seabed Act (Repeal) Bill being drawn from the ballot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt has been a wonderful year. In every area we have asked how we can defend M\u0101ori rights and advance M\u0101ori interests for the benefit of the nation. Through it all we have been so very proud to recognise, by continually bringing them to the forefront, the unique contributions that M\u0101ori have made\u2014and continue to make\u2014to the nation. We have celebrated the entrepreneurship and the vision of tangata whenua. The regular visits we have made through our three nationwide tours this year and our ongoing constituency programme have sustained our momentum to ensure that people\u2019s voices are heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003ESpeaking of momentum, I turn to the greatest secret of Parliament: the vehicle for transformation that is represented in this very complex. I am talking about the incredible contribution made by members of staff right throughout Parliament. It is these staff who have helped us\u2014the new cab\u2014enormously and who have also taught us the rules. For example, there was the day when we overlooked the sacred timing\u2014that half-hour period when questions are accepted. That was the day the House had 11 questions, for, grovel as we did, no leniency was allowed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt seems there are some moments in the House when no mercy is shown. This extends to our wonderful press gallery. For example, when we, the M\u0101ori Party, had actively contributed to and voted right throughout the whole 12 hours and 49 minutes of the debate on the Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill, all that was reported was the fact that at the final vote we were physically unable to be in the House. [Interruption] Who is that? I thought I heard a voice over there. Is that voice still in the House? Whom we have dinner with seems to have more fascination than our valiant efforts to pursue simultaneous translation or confront institutional racism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWhen I was walking to our office this morning I was passed by Clarrie Goodhue and, not much later, Raymond Young as they sped along the corridors of power, humming in their work and always willing to help and support the parliamentarians in their role. Their constant enthusiasm, professional service, and unstinting work ethic are replicated so many times by so many levels of staff who come to work at the Beehive every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party members thank, with all our hearts, the incredible efforts of our library staff, who have been so helpful in the face of numerous requests and absurd deadlines; the members\u2019 service and human resources staff, who have kept us informed about what we can and cannot do; the Bills Office staff, who are always on hand to give out copies of all the bills and reports and keep us up with the play; the Table Office staff, who have been a godsend in helping us to have all the paperwork in order for tabling; the legal staff, who have guided us in the shaping of our members\u2019 bills, our Supplementary Order Papers, and amendments; the messengers, who link us all to the outside world; the security staff, who walk our staff to their cars when they work late and open doors when we come running in at the crack of dawn; the telephonists; the travel office staff; the staff at Bellamy\u2019s and Copperfields; the Hansard recorders; the interpreters; the building staff; the cleaners; and we are sure there are many more staff who keep the cogs of this democracy turning over\u2014the silent worker bees in the hive. Each party, no matter how big or small, carries a similar parliamentary workload, placing considerable strains on the limited resources of the smaller parties. It is a workload that would be impossible to do if not for the staff of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EFinally, I come to the members of this Chamber. Madam Speaker, I thank you, the Deputy Speaker, and the Assistant Speakers, who have demonstrated enduring patience in helping us to learn the ropes so quickly. The Speakers have responded to the call of \u201Cplease\u201D from Mr Harawira, his hand raised as he attempts to eke out another minute from the clock to enable him to finish what he has so assiduously prepared. The Speaker smiled benevolently as Mr Flavell rose to his debate in full flight, delivering a well-crafted speech about a bill that was not on the Order Paper. He put his mistake down to the gift of matakite\u2014a vision of knowing what was to come. What this House does not know is that the same member came into this House with two left shoes\u2014not just once, but twice. Such is the over-brimming enthusiasm of our MPs to come down to Wellington that sometimes luggage is a mere triviality. The Speaker allowed me to slide into my seat, even if it was the wrong one, and still rise to speak, in full knowledge that the vote was just a breath away from being taken\u2014for which I got fined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe are also eternally appreciative of the masterly expertise of the Clerk and the Deputy Clerk of this House, who have been a vital resource in bringing us up to speed with the rigours of Parliament. To all the other members of this House\u2014good people all\u2014we thank them for the opportunity for our party, the mighty M\u0101ori Party, to share our ideas and aspirations for a vision of Aotearoa, a nation we are all here to serve. We have enjoyed the relationships that we continue to develop with individuals here\u2014members and, in some cases, party leadership\u2014so that we can work together in the best interests of this nation. We have thoroughly enjoyed our year, and with the benefit of, we hope, some rest over the summer, we know we will be back for more. We look forward to returning invigorated, energised, extremely well read, of course, in the Standing Orders, Hansard, and Speakers\u2019 Rulings, and, as an added bonus, even more tanned, having spent our time with wh\u0101nau on the foreshore and seabed. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022965cfc3ed13b400d9dbece4fb0856ee4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022965cfc3ed13b400d9dbece4fb0856ee4\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future for this adjournment debate, and reflect on what has been a most interesting year. At one very important level it has been a good year for United Future. It is great to be in a party that gets to contribute and to advance its policies, issue by issue. As we finish this year we can cite the fact that a number of key discussion papers have now been tabled. One discussion paper reflects the largest review of business tax that this country has known for 20 years. A paper is now being circulated that invites charities to look at a new tax rebate regime that has been developed for charities, and we are seeking their input on that. Even this week a discussion paper has been tabled that is reflective of our supply and confidence agreement with the Labour-led Government, and that introduces some thinking around the development of a national medicines strategy. We in United Future do not see ourselves as supporting a Labour-led Government; rather, we see Labour as supporting United Future policies into existence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EOn another level, it has been a bad year, and I would like to encourage members of this House over the summer adjournment to reflect on the conduct of this House. I suggest that there have been times this year when we would have been well served by having an age restriction on entry to the public gallery. I admit now to being asked by a school principal whether it would be suitable to bring his class to watch question time. Because of the behaviour at the time I said \u201CNo\u201D, and he chose not to bring his class. One good thing, though, that has come out of that experience is that dialogue between the minor parties has opened up in a new way, and I think there is more to be discovered about how we, together, can influence outcomes in this House. I look forward to ongoing discussions in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003ELike other parties, I would like to thank those who help this Parliament to tick over. I would like to start with our own staff, who are a remarkable group of researchers, executive secretaries, and advisers. I thank our board and our party volunteers. I also thank the Parliamentary Service for the many ways in which it supports our efforts, and, in particular, I thank the Speaker\u2019s office. On behalf of the Hon Peter Dunne I thank his ministerial advisory staff from the Inland Revenue Department and the Ministry of Health, and, of course, I thank our electorate agents who work for us out in the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EAs we part company for the year it is time to reflect on the fact that we look toward Christmas as a family-focused season. It occurred to me as we were gathering for this debate that even though it is the second Christmas since Rod Donald\u2019s death, his family yet again bears his memory. We would like to pass on through the Green Party our ongoing memories of him, and say that we wish them well at this season, which will be tinged with sadness for them. We encourage everybody to have a restful and safe Christmas, and we look forward to the beginning of the new year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00224a1f809c11d0432fab1681d6a6b82734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a1f809c11d0432fab1681d6a6b82734\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E May I, Madam Speaker, give my best wishes to you. I must admit that we got off to a rocky start, you and I, when you called the Serjeant-at-Arms to remove me. I understand that that had never been done in the history of the New Zealand Parliament; I am sure that I deserved it. I discovered later that if the Serjeant-at-Arms had touched me, I would have been out of Parliament until the next election. So it was a near-run thing. I should apologise to the Serjeant-at-Arms in the spirit of Christmas, because I actually turned to him and said: \u201CDon\u2019t touch me, or you will regret it.\u201D I did not say that loudly enough for the Speaker to hear\u2014thank goodness. But we did get off to a rocky start, Madam Speaker, and I hope that I have worked to repair that relationship with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIn my time in Parliament I have never seen a Speaker more tested by the poor behaviour of the Labour and National Parties\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and you can see, Madam Speaker, what I mean. I make the point\u2014and National and Labour MPs should reflect on it over the Christmas break\u2014that this is a sacred place, that it is an important place for our democracy and for our country, and that it does deserve some respect. So, too, do those members who are on their feet; so, too, does the Speaker. There is a limit to how much a Speaker can require discipline of members and of political parties. If political parties are not prepared to show the discipline required to have a serious debate, then it is not possible for a Speaker to ensure that. So I hope that both the Labour and National Parties will go away and have a break, reflect on the year, and reflect on how they want to approach Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI thank the ACT caucus. We could not have had a more united and determined caucus if we had tried\u2014100 percent supportive and hard-working, and nary a cross word or division in it. I also thank the ACT staff, who have helped us enormously, and in particular my secretary, Sandy Grove, who is a true trouper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI thank the good people of Epsom. They put their faith and trust in me and tried something different. I have worked hard to be the best member of Parliament the people of Epsom have ever had. I believe that that is the case, and it is being recognised now in that electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI thank all our supporters and members of the ACT party, who have stayed with us through what was a tough time. We now continue on our way, and to grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt has been a big year for the ACT party. We started off with just two MPs. I remember friendly colleagues of ours in the National Party saying that we were finished, because we would not be able to get anywhere with just two MPs. Well, Heather Roy and I have done our best to raise issues around New Zealand\u2014not always through Parliament. I commend Heather, an MP and a mother of five, for taking up the challenge and joining our armed services, making a contribution to New Zealand\u2019s defence, and understanding her portfolios from the sharp end\u2014behind some very large guns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt is also the case that the ACT party has brought some very serious bills to this House\u2014the No. 1 bill being that to cap increases in local Government rates, and another bill still to be heard, to deal with the unnecessary red tape that confronts New Zealand and wastes our resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHeather Roy and I also travelled to Europe, and particularly to Dublin and Berlin, to see other proportional systems, and particularly MMP, in action, and to find out how smaller parties campaign and operate in Parliaments. It was of great benefit to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI should pay special thanks to Judith Collins\u2014I am sorry; I know she is in Samoa this week\u2014because I wandered into the House one question time and she came up to me and said: \u201CMr Hide, the purpose is to get on TV for sure, but to get on TV by what you are saying, not by what you are showing.\u201D I looked a bit nonplussed, and she said: \u201CYour fly is down.\u201D I had walked into the House with my fly down, and had quickly to adjust it. The only question I had for Judith Collins was how come she was the only one who noticed. I have not got a satisfactory answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EAfter 10 years of MMP, I think that this year has been when it has started to work for us. First of all, we have worked with our colleagues in the M\u0101ori Party, with whom we agree on much and disagree on some. Our relationship, from which the ACT Party has learnt a great deal, has been fantastic, and I hope we have not been too much of a drag on the M\u0101ori Party. Also, I have enjoyed working with United Future and, indeed, with the New Zealand First MPs. The pleasure for me this year has been to work with Keith Locke and the Green Party on stopping what was going to be an absolute monstrosity on Auckland\u2019s waterfront. I enjoyed that most of all this year, and I thank Keith for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt has been a year in which the Government, in its third term in office, has tried to come up with a big idea but has failed miserably. First, we had the stadium. That was going to be the big idea, and we saw what happened to that. Second, we have climate change and carbon neutrality, and we are seeing what is happening to that. So next year we will see a Government that is floundering around for a big idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe saw Helen Clark\u2014for the first time, really\u2014lose touch with New Zealanders when she said that the pledge card was an issue that did not extend past the beltway, when what we had was a political party upset and, according to the Auditor-General, the misspending of taxpayer funds. However, I do not believe that the National Party covered itself in glory on the pledge card issue by essentially accusing Labour and all other political parties of being corrupt. I believe that that was a very, very dark approach to politics here in New Zealand. We actually know what corruption is, and I can tell the House that we do not have it in New Zealand. I do not see how the National Party can have to pay back $10,000 and not be a little bit corrupt by its own statements. Indeed, my experience in Parliament is that when people get up on their high horse they quickly become undone, and we learnt from The Hollow Men that the National Party was indeed breaking the rules\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220feee80b7bd54e6f8203842d7184bca9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fbe452e45ac4b68a00c4674f123af8b\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they say \u201CNo!\u201D\u2014and paying a parliamentary staff member who was actively engaged in fund-raising. That is dead against the rules, and I do not see how one can be on one\u2019s high horse and actually have taxpayer-paid staff going around fund-raising for one\u2019s election campaign. I suggest that we have an interest in us all\u2014in all political parties\u2014working together to sort out the rules of taxpayer funding, and not having one party try to make hay at the expense of all the rest by pretending that somehow it is whiter than white.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOne fascinating thing that has happened in recent weeks is that Michael Cullen has got his mojo back. For 2 years Michael Cullen has just been going through the motions. He is a man who is an extraordinary parliamentarian but he was looking like he had lost interest in politics. I have to say that this last week he is back! I can see what has happened. First, Trevor Mallard has gone from the picture after the stadium issue, and, secondly, I know that Michael Cullen was very upset when the media reported that John Key had bested him over the Budget and in the election campaign, and that it was Labour Party strategy to target Don Brash and to leave John Key alone. One could see Michael Cullen coiled up like a spring, wanting to unleash the whole time. He is so pleased, I can tell, that he now has Mr Key there, and I think that next year will be fascinating as we have this contest between them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe ACT party will have a big year next year with our bill. I should say this: I have had a meeting with John Key, and I believe that John Key is a modern politician in New Zealand who actually understands\u2014[Interruption] Well, we have Phil Heatley, who never ever gets to speak on anything decent in the House, and, like a lot of people in the National Party, would prefer not to even sit in his seat but instead yell right across the House, in the adjournment debate, when someone is actually trying to say some nice things about his leader\u2014and that is precisely the trouble that we have in this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00221b88db644139487cb57bc9bc2bbfd8ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b88db644139487cb57bc9bc2bbfd8ee\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Labour\u2014Rimutaka):\u003C/span\u003E This has been a great year for the Government\u2014a great year for the Government! Strong leadership, strong team, strong policies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212ca36e2edbd4444bc9cddb878b758f8\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a document entitled: Members Asked to Withdraw from the Chamber, which states that Rodney has been asked to withdraw from the Chamber four times\u2014the second-highest number of times in Parliament this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d564b44483b4efbac8e69cebfd2583d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just remind the member that normally the seeking of leave to table documents is taken at the end of speeches so as not to interrupt members. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection. Would the member please start his speech again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632430a711b646cda18b7bcffb85ded7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: This has been a great year for the Labour-led Government with its strong leadership, strong team, and strong policies. We talk about policies. That is the difference between us and that lot over there. They never talk about policy. We talk about policies. Here are just a few: interest-free student loans, public health organisation roll-out, KiwiSaver, expanded paid parental leave, and rates rebates. Just recently we have seen the draft Energy Strategy and the cheaper, faster broadband policy. This is the Labour-led Government and its policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EAs opposed to that, the National Opposition has had a shocking and terrible year. The recent book described National members as \u201Chollow men\u201D. I thought that description was flattering; it should have been \u201Cinvisible men\u201D as far as this year is concerned. The year started out with Don Brash and ended with John Key. We ended up with the back end of the donkey at the end of 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EDear old Don Brash, he stuttered and stammered his way through the year. Do members remember that he could not quite work out how GST worked? Funny that, because he was one of the architects! Well, here is a handy little hint: exclusive GST means GST not included. A little memory hint is exclusive GST, Exclusive Brethren. It is very, very simple when one actually thinks about it and gets the hang of it. So finally Don Brash called it a day and we got John Key as National\u2019s leader. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EOne can always recognise John Key around town now. He has the L-plate on the LTD. He is the learner leader who uses trainer wheels as he goes out for a bike ride. The fact is he will have an L-plate on the LTD for quite a while, judging by the last few weeks. I have just one thing to say to Mr Key: imitation is the greatest form of flattery. What has he announced in the last 3 weeks or so? He has announced and talked about such things as the inclusive society. Well, I wonder who started that little policy. Oh, of course, it was Labour. Then we had the sudden change in heart on climate change. He said that he has always believed in it. That is not what he said a year or so ago. He now says he will not change the Employment Relations Act. He now does not think that America should have gone into Iraq. He does not believe in the previous National Government\u2019s nuclear policy. He supports civil unions and now thinks that tax should be introduced gradually. I say to the National Party that it should stop pinching Labour\u2019s policies. It is just not right. Why would people have \u201CLabour-lite\u201D when they can have the real thing? That will be the point we make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIt is a funny thing also that John Key sounds like David Cameron from the British Conservative Party. Funny that! Why does he sound like David Cameron? Because it is David Cameron speaking! John Key is using the same lines as those used by David Cameron. Next year he will stand by his laptop waiting for emails from David Cameron to get him through the next week. He should think of some lines himself and stick to those. It works a lot better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EAnd what about the team lined up behind him? Bill English is doing the old \u201CI am supporting the leader to the hilt.\u201D line\u2014yes, absolutely! An old law in politics is to never have a deputy leader who wants to be the leader. Bill English, of course, has not shown loyalty before\u2014not to Jenny Shipley\u2014and he will not show it again. What about Gerry Brownlee? He has slipped from No. 2 to No. 3, which is the political equivalent of being kicked down the stairs, actually. He can see himself being kicked all the way down and finally out into the lobby. What about Simon Power\u2014power of the nuclear kind? He was Uncle Sam\u2019s friend. Suddenly the leader says: \u201CNo, we do not believe in that any more.\u201D So where is he going to end up? Tony Ryall, of course, is right behind the leader. He is always right behind the leader. He has been bitter since 1999 when the public kicked him out, and he is still not over it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E What about Nick Smith? How long was he deputy leader? I cannot remember. Was it 2 or 3 days?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228570ff384c4d45e3b117e29d37d1753f\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: 3 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b89d9154485f4daf885b1762987ba7ce\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: So he was deputy leader of the National Party for 3 days. Maurice Williamson\u2014do members remember him? Do they remember that he was going to flog off the roads, sell them to the highest bidder? That was a very, very popular policy! We are looking forward to seeing that policy resurrected as we go into the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThen, of course, there is Judith Collins. What did Bill English say about Judith Collins? In a nutshell he thinks she is hopeless. Well, Bill English has got that right. She is hopeless. What did he say about Katherine Rich? He said she has been promoted too fast. He thought John Carter\u2014and I felt he was a bit unfair about my old friend\u2014had been promoted beyond his competence. Bill English said that people in the caucus would never work with Murray McCully in Cabinet. That is absolutely true, because we know about old Muzza. The last word of all should go to Jonathan Coleman. Just when one thought it was safe to smoke cigars again, this happens! What they did to Bill Clinton\u2019s career they will also do to Jonathan Coleman\u2019s\u2014concussion and a bloody nose, all for the sake of a bit of cigar smoke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe Labour-led Government is going into the break feeling very, very good and very positive. We have done some policies. We have got New Zealand moving. We are doing the things that New Zealanders want the Government to do: showing leadership, showing strength of policy, and moving forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ENational members will go into Christmas hoping that Santa will bring them a principle, or a philosophy, or even a little policy. But we know they will not get one from Santa, because they have been bad, bad boys. They have been hollow boys. They have been hollow, bad boys. They are not going to get one single thing from Santa, and all we say is that after Christmas we will not mind sharing our policies, just as long as they ask nicely first. That is all we want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ETo all the people who work in the parliamentary precinct, to everybody here, merry Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7a084d537fa49229347298e82940215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7a084d537fa49229347298e82940215\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Paul Swain is becoming the Larry Sutherland of the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243959366a6ca497196a210652011bbf6\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad4e1a2b2eef4a9b9beafd534d23a52f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me be more precise\u2014Larry without the charisma. That is not a surprise, given that Rodney Hide sounds more and more like Peter Dunne every time he gets up to speak. I might say to the leader of the ACT party: \u201CThrow away the self-improvement books, put the dancing shoes back in the cupboard, and return ACT to what this country needs it to be\u2014a firebrand liberal party that keeps us honest, tells us where we should be going, and keeps getting 2 percent in the polls.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIf anything sums up the Labour Party in its current state it is the way it has handled the Liam Ashley affair. This House will remember a New Zealander called Kit Richards, a civil servant who wrote an email the Prime Minister did not like. And he lost his job. He lost his career and was unable ever again to get a job in the civil service. A couple of months ago Liam Ashley was strangled in the back of a prison van that was under the supervision of the police and the Department of Corrections. I might say that if Liam Ashley had been a 35-year-old middle-class mother of three, Damien O\u2019Connor would be a former Minister. The Labour Party has cynically decided that no heads will roll and no responsibility will be taken by any individual person, but a young teenager lies buried 6 feet deep in a cemetery, when his parents and every New Zealander would have assumed he was in safe hands. That is the deep cynicism of the Labour Party. Someone who says something the Prime Minister does not like can never get a job again in the pay of the State; someone who allowed a young teenager in the care of the State to be strangled does not have to be accountable, does not have to be responsible, does not have to tell the public why it happened or how; and gets to keep his job, when Liam Ashley lost his life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EDamien O\u2019Connor, a man of whom this Parliament thought better, has decided to do what Heather Simpson has told him to do\u2014that is, to hold the line because Labour cannot afford to go into Christmas losing a scalp. What a disgrace! The public would have stood and respected that Government if it had shown that it still had the capacity to understand that when someone dies brutally while he is in the care of the State, the State takes responsibility. What if that were my teenage boy getting a sharp lesson with a night in the cell, which is what Liam Ashley\u2019s parents thought was happening? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a6d928eb7ff49f2915ebfdaedcad04a\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Would you send him to prison for the lesson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221be945181db64adcba3fcbb6caa424e7\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, would you say that again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f257898029428ea47a5a7d260d6309\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Would you send him to prison for the lesson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b72ebad0820047179d805815e13be019\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so it is his fault? Now it is his fault. I thought that is what she said. Let that be in the newspaper tomorrow\u2014that Liam Ashley died because of his parents, because they made the ridiculous mistake of assuming that if he was in prison, someone would care for his life. How ridiculous! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a17ce576130a4ad5bf3455167b198018\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: She blames the family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed04df7f3f8415c8edc23f5dbb51777\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Labour blames the family!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI thought the pledge card was a deeply cynical exercise. I thought Labour\u2019s breach of the electoral spending cap by half a million dollars was a deeply cynical exercise. I thought that Helen Clark\u2019s willingness to say to her caucus: \u201CDo what you like but don\u2019t get arrested and you can stay on the parliamentary payroll.\u201D, was a cynical exercise. I thought Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s refusal to accept responsibility, or make sure that someone did, was a cynical exercise. But even I never thought that Labour would believe that it is Liam Ashley\u2019s fault that he is dead. What a disgrace! Nothing better symbolises the end of this dreadful year for that party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EOur leader said it was a Walkman Government in an iPod world. Well, it is not. It is a hand-cranked phonograph in an iPod world. You see, this is a Government that has done what it came to do. The job is done. All the signs of decline are there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857aa006e54a46c5babe866c5e2a4535\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Decay, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249689bb3664f447c9f3f66285bb9951d\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Decay! Government members bullied the media. They told APN it would lose its tax arrangements if it kept writing the wrong stories. The Government now believes that process matters more than results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe saw that with Labour\u2019s response to climate change\u2014the issue of our time. Labour now thinks that compiling a list of things to do is doing them. It is done. Labour has done energy. I know what Labour members did. They rang up Government departments and asked for a list of all the things that departments were doing. They put them in a strategy and launched it, and now it is done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022996c138dd41543ebb9ba875223c1797c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We know that\u2019s the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d942e5b965844b4c8cdef40425066fbd\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: We know that is the case; we know that is how they do it. But they need to know this: all those sector groups that have been bullied, manipulated, and bribed are now knocking on the Opposition\u2019s door. Our diaries are filling up with meetings with people, some of whom did not even know where the Opposition offices were but who have now worked out they had better find out. And they all tell the same story: \u201CWe are sick of it.\u201D\u2014even the civil service. The civil service wants the opportunity to serve the public, not the Labour Party. We will give them that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe other sign of a Government nearing the end of its life is that the consequences of its choices are coming home to roost. No one is more affected by that than the cornered dog of Dr Cullen. Dr Cullen is now in the position where Peter Dunne and Helen Clark are saying to him: \u201CYou must cut personal taxes.\u201D, and Dr Bollard is saying to him: \u201CYou must not.\u201D The reason is that Dr Bollard now has an inflation problem. One of the main drivers of that inflation problem is his runaway spending under Dr Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI want to thank some people. I want to thank Don Brash for his long, admirable, and irreplaceable record of public life, and I want to thank him for turning this party into a Government. I want to thank John Key. Political leadership is a big ask for anyone, and I am so pleased that a man so capable has stepped up to become the leader of the National Party, and the next Prime Minister. I want to tell Paul Swain that if this is John Key with his L-plates on, wait till he gets his full licence. I tell members that he is driving the National Party and we are all on the bus, and it will roll right over this bunch who are lying in the middle of the road doing their best already to play dead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI want to thank the National Party caucus. I have been brought up on the National Party, on the great figures of the past, because my parents knew them all and talked about them. This will be the best National Cabinet in 50 years. I have absolutely no doubt about it. We have the talent, we have the commitment, and we passed the test a couple of weeks ago by showing that our desire to change this country overrode all those other forces that are so difficult to manage in an Opposition. So we are ready with a leader who is ready\u2014and a Government that is dead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223a418837c1f34232b254193f76d94867\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a418837c1f34232b254193f76d94867\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E It is an indication of the state of this ageing and dying Labour Government that it can put up only two speakers today. One is the cornered dog, Dr Michael Cullen, a man who has missed many opportunities in his life and has failed in his ultimate goal to lead the Labour Party. Then we heard from Mr Paul Swain, who is leaving this Parliament in fewer than 2 years. They are the only Labour members we have heard from. I say this to Dr Cullen: if the Labour Party had obeyed the law of this country, he would be the Deputy Prime Minister in this adjournment debate today. If the police had enforced the law, those people would not be sitting there today. If this Labour Party had taken the warnings of the Chief Electoral Officer and obeyed the law, it would not be the Government of New Zealand today, and New Zealand would have a much better Government that provides the leadership that the country needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis has been an awful year for the Labour Party in office. Let us remember the pledge card scandal. Do members recall how it started?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bfa5b74-8933-458a-99d4-bbd75d9898d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c872266a0048da922491f2aa88793c\u0022\u003EChris Auchinvole\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022716730ac4c5a4a18a6a547338420fbb7\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister said the pledge card was not an issue, and that because Labour had been issuing it for two elections previously, it was not a problem. Then the argument was that everybody else was doing things like that, and then that Labour had not known it was an election expense. The fact of the matter is that David Henry deserves to be one of the New Zealanders of the year, because the Chief Electoral Officer wrote to that dishonest Labour Party, saying that its pledge card was election spending and had to be declared. What did the Labour Party do? It wrote back to him and said yes, it would be declared. That is what the Government said before the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWithin days of the election\u2014a knife-edge election\u2014the Labour Party then wrote to David Henry and said it had changed its mind, and the spending on the pledge card was not going to be declared at all. That is dishonest, and as has been said by others, it is darn right corrupt. It is darn right corrupt to say one thing to the Chief Electoral Officer before the election and another thing afterwards. Because it was a knife-edge election, every dollar, every doorknock, every pamphlet, and every phone call mattered. Labour stole the election with half a million dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money, and the Labour members have no legitimacy whatsoever to lecture anybody in this House. If they had obeyed the law, they would not be in Government today, and that silly little boy with the red hair would be delivering newspapers in Levin yet again, which is where he should be today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235bd49a4499d487a829c7bef1c5365ab\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: He would get a milk run.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228854238b62f545b183ba46cd720d941b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he would get a milk run. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI think the real measure of Helen Clark is how she has dealt with Taito Phillip Field. I will recite what Lockwood Smith has shown so effectively in this Parliament this year. Taito Phillip Field is a man who sold immigration permits to people for money and work. There is no doubt that Taito Phillip Field said to Sunan Siriwan that if he went and did the tiling, he would get Siriwan into New Zealand. That is what happened. Here is the other rub: who else knew? Phil Goff was at the house where Sunan Siriwan was doing the work! The Minister of Foreign Affairs was at the house where he was doing the work. Has Phil Goff ever said, while sitting in his caravan in Mt Roskill waiting, waiting, waiting, what he said to Sunan Siriwan? No! Who else was there? The retiring Paul Swain was there. He was the Minister of Immigration. He was the guy in whose authority those decisions were being made. He was there at the house in Samoa with Sunan Siriwan. He spoke to him. What did he say? He has never said. Has he ever volunteered to go to the police to say what he said? No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022213967fa49f94090b6b27f3778da4757\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: He wants the grouting done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b9b092c911843658d62d1980e16a188\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague on this side of the House say he wants the grouting to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EBut I think Helen Clark stands indicted for her appalling lack of standards on the performance of Taito Phillip Field. Let us remember what happened to Dover Samuels. Even a mere allegation meant that he was chopped off at the knees within 24 hours by Helen Clark. He was found to be completely beyond reproach, yet he was frozen out of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EBut I think one of the most noticeable and real achievements of this year is that Labour has lost the faith of the public when it comes to managing the health portfolio. New Zealanders now know that Labour cannot be trusted to give them value for money for what they are putting into the health service. We have seen the screaming skull in this House, in question time after question time, completely losing it because he cannot justify the performance of himself or his predecessor, Annette King. So at every question time out comes the screaming skull, trying to deflect attention from the appalling performance of Labour, and denying the fact that 25,000 New Zealanders who needed an operation were culled off hospital waiting lists for no other reason than that they had been waiting for more than 6 months. There was not a thought from Labour for those people. Those 25,000 New Zealanders whom doctors said needed operations were culled from hospital waiting lists for no other reason than that they had been waiting more than 6 months. Those people have been sent back to their doctors, and they have to start life again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe real privilege of being the health spokesperson is that I have met and talked to a lot of the people at the cold edge of Labour\u2019s health policy. I have been talking to people with skin cancer whose specialists have told them that the cancer has to eat more of their faces before they will get an operation, I say to Jill Pettis. I ask that member what she would say to those people. If she blames Liam Ashley\u2019s mother for his death, would she blame a mother for her daughter\u2019s cancer? I have been talking to people whose kids are in desperate need of neurosurgery. I have been talking to a mother whose kid could die at any moment if he cannot get desperately needed neurosurgery. She has been mucked around by the Auckland District Health Board. And what does the Minister of Health do in Parliament? He blames the mother, again. Is that not appalling? I have been talking to the old people who have been suffering because they are in desperate need of a hip replacement, yet Pete Hodgson says that does not matter and they can go off the waiting list because they have been waiting more than 6 months. They are culled from the hospital waiting lists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EAnd what about the biggest lie of all? The biggest lie of all is that we are doing more surgery in New Zealand than we were 6 years ago. That is the test of this Government. An extra $4 billion has been put into elective surgery, and fewer people are receiving elective surgery than previously. Even fewer people will get elective surgery this year. We have seen an unprecedented level of industrial action in our country\u2019s hospitals. Today I can tell the House that there are people in the MidCentral District Health Board\u2019s area who have been told that they will wait 19 weeks in order to get radiotherapy to deal with their cancer. Let us imagine someone being told today that he or she will not start his or her treatment to cure cancer until the end of April. Someone has cancer, but that person will not be treated until the end of April. A member\u2019s constituent could be told today that he or she will not get cancer treatment until this time in April. That is appalling. That is what this Government\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI will give members the best policy for fixing the health system in this country, and it is a change of Government. National will give New Zealand the leadership that will assure people they will get value for every dollar. We will not waste all the money on endless bureaucracy. Members should mark this down: since the Labour Party came to office in the year 2000 there are now over 2,000 more managers and administrators in the health system. For every two nurses who have been employed in the health system, Labour has employed a new hospital manager. Our entire health system is being bogged down in bureaucracy and decline. We even revealed in Parliament in the last week that the Minister of Health knows that his role is being wasted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022b904f796fefa4276963790720cb380b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b904f796fefa4276963790720cb380b9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members of Parliament, as the 2006 parliamentary year comes to a close I wish to pay tribute to all the people who contribute to the efficient functioning of the House. First, I must acknowledge the support of my colleague and Deputy Speaker, Clem Simich, and Assistant Speakers Ann Hartley and Ross Robertson, who have been great to work with this year and have never failed to perform when asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI extend my thanks to the Clerk of the House, David McGee. In my time as Speaker, I have come to value his sound advice and support, as well as his role in the efficient conduct of the House. As most members are aware, David has been overseas on a well-earned sabbatical for the last few months. It is with great admiration that I pay tribute to the Deputy Clerk of the House, Mary Harris. It is never easy stepping into the position of someone with David\u2019s reputation, but Mary has embraced the role of Acting Clerk with confidence, professionalism, and a quiet determination. I have been exceedingly grateful for her wise counsel and sound advice over recent months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI would also like to thank the staff of the Clerk\u2019s Office for their professional and administrative skills in servicing the Table of the House, compiling Hansard records, processing legislation, questions, petitions, and serving select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E Thanks also must go to George Tanner, Chief Parliamentary Counsel, and his staff; the general manager of the Parliamentary Service, Joel George, and his senior managers; members\u2019 support staff, including executive assistants; support staff of the various parliamentary parties; the staff of the Parliamentary Library; research units; the Chamber and gallery officers; security staff; building services staff; the telephonists; travel office staff; and reception and visitor services staff\u2014my special thanks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EMy thanks also goes to the Serjeant-at-Arms, Brent Smith, and to all those who work with him to uphold the traditions and propriety of the Chamber and to welcome visitors to the parliamentary galleries. They are an essential part of the running of the Parliament and of events such as the highly successful open day at Parliament in October. Others who work hard to ensure that guests and visitors to the parliamentary complex have an enjoyable experience include Beverley Cathcart and Michelle Janse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThank you to all those who have worked to support the committees that I chair: the Business Committee, the Parliamentary Service Commission, the Standing Orders Committee, and the Officers of Parliament Committee. I would also like to thank the Chief Ombudsman, John Belgrave, and his fellow ombudsmen, Beverley Wakem and Mel Smith, and their staff; the Controller and Auditor-General, Kevin Brady, and his staff; the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Dr Morgan Williams, who, after 10 years\u2019 service, leaves his post early next year. Welcome to Dr Jan Wright, who takes over in March. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThanks also to the Leader of the House, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, whose knowledge of the Standing Orders, impressive debating skills, and sense of humour have saved the House from sinking below the radar on several occasions\u2014so to you, I thank you, Michael. The leaders of all the parties in this House, their deputies, and the party whips and their deputies all deserve a special commendation. Only those intimately involved appreciate the degree of skill, charm, and authority necessary to ensure the smooth running of this House. We are all well served by those who hold these often thankless offices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge and thank the members of the press gallery and those journalists who take the time to learn about Parliament and its procedures, and are therefore better qualified to report and comment on what happens here than some of their other colleagues are. I acknowledge too the efforts of all members of Parliament who, despite enormous workloads, continued to serve their electorates and make important contributions to the wide range of select committees that met throughout this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI extend a personal thanks to my own staff, Pam Reader, Roland Todd, and of course the two Roses, with whom you are all familiar. In addition, of course, thanks to our Kaum\u0101tua and his wife Rose\u2014who is the No. 3 Rose\u2014and also to our interpreters, who give sterling service to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI thank all members again for their support and work throughout the year, and for the contribution they make, not just to this House but also to New Zealand and its people. I know that from time to time people may wonder what members actually do in here, so I have been provided with a few statistics that may be of assistance to them during their holiday breaks over their barbecues. We have had 85 sitting days, 87 calendar days\u2014members may wish to explain that to their constituents. We have had sitting hours that total 477 hours and 22 minutes. We have passed 97 bills, and they include four members\u2019 bills. Members have contributed 20,185 written questions and have asked 988 oral questions. There have been 296 select committee meetings, and those select committees have produced 293 reports. I think that is an example of an extraordinarily good workload, for which all members should be congratulated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EAs I draw this session of Parliament to a close, and as members go to join their families and friends for the coming break, I wish them all well until we meet again in February 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53ae43e01234e87a75c04699954a6d8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 February 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200612122082b91efa694d018c73100bd90aa6ab000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6.20 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"