"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ce168b644684f45a9ee56888d3cf495\u0022\u003EThursday, 22 February 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef7c7b2185f0454db5005a712297b48f\u0022\u003EThursday, 22 February 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022304fee7733fa44f186eccfb7efdbdfac\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0f1bbe8e620452bbaad6bb10677b5bf\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u2014Interjections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00223c35eef654444b128e778f84d7731b72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c35eef654444b128e778f84d7731b72\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was asked yesterday to rule on the permissibility of interjections during personal explanations. That point does not appear to have arisen before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EAs I pointed out when the point of order was raised, members do not have a right to interject at any time. Standing Order 132 allows a member to be interrupted in only two circumstances: by a point of order, or by a matter of privilege relating to the conduct of strangers who are present. Of course, the longstanding convention has been that reasonable interjections are permitted. That is acknowledged in Speaker\u2019s ruling 57/2, given in 1932, where it is said that with the \u201Ctacit consent\u201D of the House, members may interrupt other members to ask \u201Creasonable questions\u201D. That latter reference gives the clue to what interjections are supposed to be about: they are contributions to the debate that is under way, by way of contradiction, elucidation, or endorsement of what the member who is speaking has just said. Interjections, provided that they are reasonable, are thus clearly appropriate in a debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EBut when members are making statements, it has been recognised that interjections are not appropriate\u2014see, for example, Speakers\u2019 ruling 123/2 relating to interjections while the Prime Minister is delivering the Prime Minister\u2019s statement. A personal explanation is a form of statement. Indeed, Standing Order 350 specifically states that a personal explanation may not be debated. In these circumstances, I consider that it is out of order for there to be interjections while a member is making a personal explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223361c25203654fa5b88fb7a2761fae71\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec1cec51031f40c0b7f79df9b53941a9\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022da1c75a66a0a47a5ac3519fe3707fab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da1c75a66a0a47a5ac3519fe3707fab5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House priority will be given to the remaining stages of the Judicial Retirement Age Bill, the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2), and the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Bill. The first readings of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill and the Statutes Amendment Bill will be held on Thursday. The Committee stage of the Appropriation (2005/06 Financial Review) Bill, which is a 4-hour debate, will be held on Wednesday afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae670f953cf9409d8a897d9e45a8c0c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae670f953cf9409d8a897d9e45a8c0c9\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Leader of the House for that indication of next week\u2019s programme. But I note that the Order Paper at the moment is extremely thin, and that most of the bills on it are very non-controversial\u2014bills on which the Government will find it relatively easy to have a majority. I wonder whether the Leader of the House might indicate, under these new circumstances where the Government is able to hold office but not particularly to govern, whether we can expect a revision to the year\u2019s sitting programme in order that the Government will not be embarrassed by its very light work programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f88d7acb75c8483dadf8fbf965b2e7fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f88d7acb75c8483dadf8fbf965b2e7fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I note that in the last 6 months the minimum majority on a third reading was eight, that the Government\u2019s majority on confidence and supply is secure, and that the Government is, therefore, extremely capable of governing. I look forward to continued rational treatment of the House\u2019s programme for the remainder of the year, and I can promise the member that there will certainly be some exciting measures that will no doubt work the National Party up into a frenzy of temporary anger, before it later supports them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bdd34e1772184b08b3cb943b453fe794\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d16f688531e94cf0a07be38f77223fac\u0022\u003ESupplementary Questions\u2014Allocation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002253f4f7ae8ab14ab198688f0f8fe86131\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253f4f7ae8ab14ab198688f0f8fe86131\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I raise this matter now because it relates to question time specifically, and I point to Standing Order 378 in doing so. We were notified yesterday that due to the decision by Taito Phillip Field to become an Independent member, there would be some reallocation of supplementary questions. Over the last short while it has become somewhat of a formula to decide who gets supplementary questions, how many, and why that is the case. It would appear that the Labour Party, having lost a member, in fact drops one supplementary question, but the National Party is required to drop two supplementary questions. That seems to be fundamentally unfair. [Interruption] Labour Ministers will, of course, laugh, because that means there will be 60 fewer occasions during a parliamentary year when they will have to avoid answering questions, which they are all now so adept at doing. My request, Madam Speaker, is that you have a look at this matter, recognise the authority you have under Standing Order 378, and give consideration to allowing the National Party to retain the number of supplementary questions we were allocated prior to the decision by the Labour Party to send Mr Field down the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff2ac3cea6964f808b8e4ed88ff56562\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff2ac3cea6964f808b8e4ed88ff56562\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member, and he does raise a point that I know will be of interest to other members. In anticipation I do have a ruling to clarify matters for the benefit of members. If there is any further debate, I suggest that people look at the ruling and perhaps raise it at the Business Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EFollowing the Business Committee\u2019s confirmation of a revised roster for the allocation of questions for oral answer, I have reconsidered the allocation of supplementary questions. Supplementary questions are, of course, allowed at the Speaker\u2019s discretion. However, over recent times Speakers have given an indication of the way that they may allocate supplementary questions. A revised allocation has been sent to all party whips and comes into force today. The Speaker\u2019s indicative allocation of supplementary questions is based on the same system of proportionality that is used for the allocation of primary questions for oral answer. The allocations to parties are calculated as a proportion of the total number of members\u2014121\u2014excluding the 28 members of the executive. Each week 189 supplementary questions may be allowed; that is 63 each question time. Each party has been allocated its proportion of the 189 supplementary questions, and those have been allocated across the three question times. The new allocation takes into account a member becoming an Independent member and the resignation of the Hon Jim Sutton, who was not replaced as a Minister, thus reducing the numbers in the executive by one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe impact on the Labour Party\u2019s proportion of the reduction in the number of members of the executive on the one hand, and of a member becoming an Independent on the other hand, in effect cancel each other out. As a result all parties\u2019 allocations are reduced relatively. The Labour Party is entitled to 20 percent of the supplementary questions and loses one question; the National Party is entitled to 50 percent of the supplementary questions and loses two questions. The changes in the proportions for the smaller parties are so small that they have no material impact on their allocations. The Independent member is entitled to two supplementary questions each week. Previously there were 190 supplementary questions each week. Now, to ensure strict proportionality, there will be 189. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI must also say that when I went back and reconsidered this matter, I found we had not taken into account the fact that the Hon Jim Sutton had resigned from the executive, so in effect the National Opposition has had one question more than it was entitled to, and the Labour Party one less. [Interruption] I apologise to members for that, and as the changes take place we will make the proportions change at that time. But that is why, as Gerry Brownlee has raised quite properly, the revised allocation may seem a little incongruous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb89b37bec92408ab6326d941abde348\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb89b37bec92408ab6326d941abde348\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. By the interesting logic you put in front of us, can we assume that if the Labour Party were to further decimate its extraordinarily large executive, it might in fact not have to answer very many questions in the House, at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cdb305d933d43cc9e2fcbed6cc9b191\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, the Speaker does not work on hypotheticals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00227adb33004c184864963cd90be438322e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227adb33004c184864963cd90be438322e\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This is a separate point of order that arises out of the last one. It may be useful, in the context of determining the allocation, for you to offer a rationale to the House for the exclusion of members of the executive from the calculation, given that members of the executive frequently ask supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e82949c7d8504bebbde62c66c34dc2a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e82949c7d8504bebbde62c66c34dc2a7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E That was a conscious decision of the Standing Orders Committee at the time. Indeed, I think I was the person who initially suggested that, on the grounds that essentially, of course, it is members of the executive who answer questions within the House. That does not prevent, within the Labour Party, members of the executive asking supplementary questions, but it seemed to be fair and appropriate that the allocation of questions should be based on non-executive membership. In the National Party, of course, that means there is a very powerful incentive to remain in Opposition, because in that way those members get more questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225d5e1dfb0cc14ec89b03fde5b4cd23d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d5e1dfb0cc14ec89b03fde5b4cd23d1\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I think that Mr Dunne raises an interesting point, but we cannot support him because, clearly, the only way that members of this Government communicate with one another is through the question and answer process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e8a78e560ef40a6ad7b3067f3a442c5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising the issue, and I say the member\u2019s contribution is a matter for the Business Committee. It is a matter that some people have queried from time to time. The explanation from the Leader of the House was accepted at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6a104595b22415f92b85ab6d93499d7\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ddb1f73fee34e4aa8cc124f9332d0e1\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7b1ab5d949347aba657ce55cc4f231b\u0022\u003ECarbon Neutrality\u2014Government Agencies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd7c9af320ec46068a1d16bb3fc08aff\u0022\u003E1. Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: How do the estimates tabled in the House by the Minister of Finance on Tuesday, showing carbon footprints of the first six Government agencies to go carbon neutral, compare to the projected deficit New Zealand faces during the first commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol and the carbon emissions from current deforestation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d75f3eb138664b4889e75a96687694c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d75f3eb138664b4889e75a96687694c2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E The estimated cost for carbon neutrality in the first six Government departments to be committed to carbon neutrality is $5 million. Of course the emission reduction and offsets in these Government departments show that carbon neutrality is an achievable goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad830e95a64b47bab4c1cd2fb8654ffd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason the Minister did not give a straight answer to my original question the fact that official figures show that the six carbon-neutral public services would save just 13,000 tonnes, whereas New Zealand faces a 40 million tonne carbon deficit under the Kyoto Protocol, and we are losing 8 million tonnes a year in deforestation\u2014that is, the numbers are so embarrassing they make the Government\u2019s climate change policies a joke?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022944d793eeeb2414d92c78f3444fff8e4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The proposals to advance towards carbon neutrality in the public sector are, of course, unrelated to rates of deforestation. I have no doubt that the Government\u2019s preferred policy option in respect of controlling deforestation\u2014through a deforestation \u201Ccap and trade\u201D scheme\u2014would be effective to limit and reduce deforestation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1882bbe307045e0bb3db3ccdae241ab\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Do forest owners have a property right to carbon credits for carbon stored by previously planted trees, as asserted in deforestation proposals put forward by a Mr Matthew Hooton\u2014whom I think was extensively mentioned in The Hollow Men\u2014on behalf of lobbyist Roger Dickie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bce0110305bd4ed6b973a250bb1cf0a8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Plainly, no. There is no property right for carbon credits, just as emitters have no property liability for their existing carbon emissions. If foresters had a property right, then farmers and other New Zealanders would already have a property liability for their car emissions or their cows. Plainly, they do not. This is actually one thing that Labour and National agree on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c42ef0f876c4a5dbca64597d91a982d\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that industry and society would be thrown into chaos if the Government were to take an extreme view on the time frame for achieving carbon-neutral targets, such as Nick Smith seems to be proposing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea9b31e222f54208b273a09bb155b150\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I agree that to charge towards carbon neutrality in a short number of years would be an unattainable goal except\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0b7e1e69034a52ba2c072d86139376\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the Prime Minister!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022010dfae57a47432e9690b4fa0bf4a333\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Prime Minister agrees with that and has never said anything different. The ambition of carbon neutrality is a realistic goal as shown by what can be achieved in these first six Government departments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d75bfcbce554c30a0bd85032eab89d1\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How does the carbon saving from these six departments, which the Minister has just stated to be $5 million in 2012, compare in 2012 terms with the expected savings that would have occurred with the price on carbon if the Government\u2019s carbon charge\u2014decided in 2002\u2014had not been abandoned in December 2005?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256db64e66c3b4067a4ad813afb162faf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: But a fraction of those savings, which from memory were calculated to total 41 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent. That is just from memory and it is a while since I looked at those figures. The member could correct me if I am wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e42ef7c9034a4323ad387842913004ad\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does it not illustrate that the Prime Minister\u2019s opening statement to Parliament on sustainability was a load of hog, when she proudly boasts of a new policy of making Treasury carbon neutral, when figures show it will make a difference of 2 tonnes per day, but when she makes no mention of deforestation that is causing carbon loss of 22,000 tonnes per day; and, given these figures, does he not accept that halting the massive deforestation going on in New Zealand right now should be the No. 1 climate change priority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022539675ded015449a80b4fbf36f7cb639\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have long been clear that halting growing rates of deforestation is very important in terms of climate change policy. The \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system that the Government has proposed is one of the options, and indeed some of the other options would also achieve that outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224245310046234e7b939222dc0b943f2f\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister perceived any inconsistency between claims now being made that the Government is doing too little about climate change and the assertion that climate change is a \u201Ccomplete and utter hoax\u201D; a statement made by John Key in this House just 18 months ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6477a836b964dd880af0f8e782ba656\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Thankfully Phil Goff is not responsible for the statements of National\u2019s leader, John Key. Furthermore, the quote is completely incorrect and wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f28ac52e074e2e90e2ffbe78866653\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister would address the first part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022229e2767c93a42c1b4df1db1cfd969c0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, and I recall contrasting statements by other members in this House, including Mr Key who did, in fact, say to this House that he was personally unconvinced and thought the whole thing was a hoax. He subsequently went on to say that he believed in climate change. It is, of course, permissible for him to change his mind, but he went on to say he believed in climate change and always had. One of those two statements has to be incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229fe8598976e4fc58f4e77e0044442ea\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can he assure the House that having expensive Treasury bureaucrats running around ensuring they are carbon neutral is the best contribution they can make to climate change policy when their carbon footprint is so minuscule; would not their time be better spent on implementing a credible policy like National\u2019s tradable emissions permit system that will actually address the major emissions that are causing New Zealand\u2019s climate change issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220edbd7d3851d430ebfc3bc765ae0ab2a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first point to be made there is that a number of steps\u2014a large number of steps\u2014need to be taken to advance towards carbon neutrality. Making light of the steps that are starting to be taken in the Government sector is, with respect to the member, heading in the wrong direction. The Government\u2019s leadership in this area, in terms of our own purchasing patterns, has the ability to influence more than just the emissions in the Government sector but lead to more sustainable practices across the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229858bbe8a8b4488ab886341755881b56\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Will our carbon-neutral Prime Minister be opening the new E3P generator in the Waikato this month, given that today she has found time to open the new Awapuni generator in Palmerston North, noting that the E3P generator is 385 times bigger, that the emissions savings in a year from the environmentally friendly Awapuni generator will be gobbled up in a single day of E3P\u2019s operation, and that the Government is the funder and guarantor of E3P, whereas Awapuni is being financed by the Austrian Government and the Palmerston North City Council, or is the Prime Minister so possessed by her spin machine\u2019s cover-up of the Government\u2019s appalling record on climate change that she will go wherever a photo opportunity will give her the excuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b47234a3c3e4106a44156ce99fe83ee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, E3P is likely to back off Huntly and reduce and lower emissions. In respect of the Awapuni project, of course that project was caused by Government climate change policy and probably would not have happened without it. The generator was brought into being because of the Government\u2019s project to reduce emissions and its allocating carbon credits to that environmentally friendly power project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e4009f6e28407d9a996f1c98776724\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that his Government\u2019s policy proposals regarding forestry are causing a huge increase in deforestation, and that at Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry public meetings in Gisborne, Hamilton, Nelson, and, yesterday, Hawke\u2019s Bay, his forestry policies were overwhelmingly rejected; and why does he not abandon the stupid policies now so that there might be some trees standing when National becomes the Government next year? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f56fc4fcda44919a1301b49bce091e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is true that Roger Dickie and other people assert that deforestation is caused by our unwillingness to devolve carbon credits to other forests planted prior to 1990. It is hard to see the linkage; I cannot see the linkage. It is notable that both major parties in this Parliament, including Nick Smith\u2019s own, do not favour the devolution of carbon credits to previously planted forestries. They reject the property rights - based argument. There is no theft of carbon credits, and if carbon credits were property rights for existing forests, then already others would have liabilities for their emissions in agriculture and transport\u2014and, plainly, they do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc73d25a67d64a8487a79095e2080afb\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Given the challenge to the accuracy of my quoting of John Key, I seek the leave of the House to table a quote from Hansard dated 10 May 2005, where John Key states: \u201CThis is a complete and utter hoax, if I may say so.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282cdc50e246445fba9f1256108db9dc7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afdc4ff2217e48aca35a42c1bbbd0032\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document that is an extract from National\u2019s 2005 climate change policy and states that National would use New Zealand\u2019s forest credits to offset emissions in the first commitment period\u2014in other words, it would not devolve them to foresters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227de2e1e3ee9243529caf5be543cd5d94\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Given the excitement that Phil Goff showed, he asserted that John Key said that climate change was a hoax. He did not. If Mr Goff were to table the previous sentence, he would see that the reference was in respect of Kyoto. I seek leave to table the full Hansard and not just the sentence that suits the misleading Mr Goff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212010de1be0544f0855f8d6f4be0467f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the point of order. I ask members though, when they make points of order, not to make speeches and to actually stick to the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d15aa935e584feaae904b902129cd14\u0022\u003EKiwiSaver Scheme\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227004b95a67ff42c6b6e611d0811f474b\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he received on support for KiwiSaver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82cf9b4b57747ae93cdba60ba23b69a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82cf9b4b57747ae93cdba60ba23b69a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Apart from the enthusiastic support of the member, I have received reports of support from a range of sectors, including from AXA, whose retirement survey found that 59 percent of New Zealanders who know about KiwiSaver believe that it will lead to an increase in their retirement savings. I have also seen reports from the country\u2019s largest union, the New Zealand Amalgamated Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union, saying that it is prepared to include employer contributions to KiwiSaver as part of, rather than in addition to, its wage claims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225531a79a0f3e466bad9548f2fc9e4812\u0022\u003EShane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What alternative approaches has he seen to encourage savings in New Zealand? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae1d987e4cd46468ba34fd647fd6756\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As we have just been listening to one hand clapping\u2014I have seen a very wide range, from compulsion to extraordinary claims from the likes of the Business Roundtable that we do not have a savings problem, at all. The one silent voice is that of the National Party, which opposes KiwiSaver, but has absolutely no alternative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022690ccad97551473e92538b547b8f1683\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen recent media reports suggesting that KiwiSaver could be extended to all current employees; if so, has the Government given any thought to that suggestion and to the timing and practicalities involved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b249845b2c4e989b891849ee5ae9c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: KiwiSaver will, of course, be available to all employees; the question is whether they will be compelled to join. It is worth remembering that in Australia compulsion was introduced by way of an employer levy of 9 percent of wages in an era of high inflation and as part of a centralised wage bargain - imposed wage tax and superannuation trade-off. Such a trade-off could not be achieved in New Zealand under conditions of relatively low inflation and decentralised wage bargaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225336b03e68a64b378cd66c35062df2b5\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister for his response, but the reports I was referring to actually suggested simply automatic enrolment, not compulsion, with the same right to opt out as will be given to all people starting a job for the first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e24a98b0e8c64ae1b8e086e473651476\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285fbe0a2f5a7410b9d402f66348f7f00\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I will just say that I have not seen that report; if what the member means is a report that we immediately enrol everybody as an opt-out, I think that the administration would be something we could not possibly gear up for by 1 July, given the number of people involved. The advantage of phasing it in the way that we have is that anybody can opt in, but all new employees are automatically enrolled\u2014that is, some 700,000 people a year who are new employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a61d8d3ffc3d45eda1fe4dacb51141aa\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Value for Money\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ad3be2ffeba4a5cb1eaec9c8bc80021\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he believe he is getting value for money in health; if so, where?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9701261e41240599dc581d35ba1193c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9701261e41240599dc581d35ba1193c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E We are getting better value for money, but further improvement is always sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65181564e0942b1a4295c16017bc09b\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen reports that a Te K\u016Biti primary health organisation practice is offering a cash bounty for people to enrol in the primary health organisation\u2014inducements of $20 cash per person or $50 cash per family, and a prize draw of Warehouse vouchers\u2014and is he satisfied that offering cash for clients is an ethical way of accessing public health subsidies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f86d8c6d07b4d7d8619158d6faf14c5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: My answer may be a little longer, if I may, Madam Speaker. The member will be aware that this health clinic has had longstanding financial and managerial problems; that it is under new management; and that, with the Waikato District Health Board, a marketing plan is in place to increase enrolments. The marketing plan involves many things\u2014newsletters, public activities, open days, media publicity, and on it goes. Clearly, the health clinic went a step too far with its cash prizes. The district health board has already told it so\u2014along with the Waikato primary health organisation, I would expect\u2014and it will not do it again. There are two reasons to increase enrolments. The first is the viability of the health clinic. The second is as important. This part of the King Country has about 3,000 people who are not enrolled with anyone. That is out of a population of only 19,000. That is a very high proportion, and lots of people are intent on fixing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022528d5b0385d945e89bec6cbe0f5f3db6\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221499c87f1b649d5902efdb621463a20\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ef81c53396e4024ad4fb22452cc05cc\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou te Whare. Does the Minister believe he is getting value for money when it is alleged that patients normally required to stay overnight following surgery at Wanganui Hospital are discharged to motels, where family or health service providers are expected to care for them and return them to the hospital in the morning for post-operative examinations; and how safe is that practice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022999a8a5ccd664af88c5b34583f642584\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what the value for money of it is, nor am I sure of the safety of it, but I would be very happy to have the member raise the issue with me privately if she wishes. I am going to Wanganui in the next few weeks, I think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228584b14d06ae4655b4537e9783687cff\u0022\u003EAnn Hartley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister know how this health clinic raised the prize money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9990fb3075441c7bea6d92dc2099377\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes I do. The prize money was raised at the local pig hunt where volunteers ran a canteen and sold raffles. Last night Mr Ryall rushed on to national television to breathlessly advise that the taxpayer would be upset. The taxpayer did not pay. Yet again he makes it up. Yet again he is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228359d35133fa4e9c82b80b21758f8bed\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that a significant amount of the increased health sector spending has gone towards paying nurses adequately in order to retain their skills here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c607ea83d5d417ebb0fca1dd6d179a9\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes I can, and as a result recruitment and retention of nurses in the New Zealand health sector has improved significantly. I am very proud of the pay increase to the New Zealand nurses who work for district health boards, and I thank them for their ongoing efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdc2b21e6e2415fbb7fb0349c7c351c\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How is it that the Government\u2019s policy rules allow primary health organisations or their practices to offer patients a cash bounty that gives the primary health organisation hundreds of dollars in taxpayers\u2019 money for every person it has paid $20 or $50 to, which another primary health organisation has labelled discount marketing of health care? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022442d05d624484060a108a62fa18c451e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: This is a fast-moving portfolio. The member is not aware, apparently, that a stopper was put on that, weeks ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229391e43faa124fa282d30dde71c05a50\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298658d3affd445a9904f81c61368ad3d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Let me tell the member something else. Yesterday I had the opportunity or the pleasure of spending part of the day in my own electorate of Dunedin. There I found the Otago University health centre offering an iPod for registration. I doubt that the member would consider that unethical, and I wonder whether I might say carefully whether that is because it involves a very different demographic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c49198c4c247ed838626978dcef2b6\u0022\u003EAnn Hartley\u003C/span\u003E: What value are New Zealanders getting from additional primary-care funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c01c128aef44f6eb090cf7bb8188fc6\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: For mainstream New Zealanders\u2014all of us\u2014we are getting value for money from our primary health care strategy now. By and large what has happened is that a young family\u2019s annual cost of going to a general practitioner has fallen from about $750 per year on average to about $200. An older couple who, on average, used to pay about $780 year, now pay about $340 a year\u2014something to be proud of, I would say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cb814395ccb4a1da99ac3414b920cbc\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why, as this case demonstrates, does not he, as Minister, apply proper systems to the administration of this funding in the first place instead of spending days with his mop and bucket tidying up yet another mess he has created in the public health system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e4d0218ca8b4c8e8cd31141f5f83996\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member continues to feign outrage. He should reflect on the fact that 94 percent of the enrolees in this practice are M\u0101ori, Pacific Island, and/or lowest deprivation profile. Some politicians use the word \u201Cunderclass\u201D to describe such a population and rush towards them with muesli bars. I would say that the member cannot have it both ways. Either his party has discovered what it calls an underclass and wants to brand itself as caring, or his party is prepared to take a swipe at those who are committed to the delivery of better health services to the so-called underclass whenever the opportunity arises. He cannot have it both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f881250555674339a2181f9594c8ffb4\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Minister saying it is OK for a M\u0101ori primary health organisation to offer these sorts of inducements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201b79ea3dd841fbbf0eeac9630ecfd9\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member did not listen to my answer to his first supplementary question. It is not OK. It has been stopped. It ain\u2019t gonna happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225de20b1302564c7c9674097eb4b03d82\u0022\u003ECluster Bombs\u2014Lebanon\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad604f2c7414c2d9d4b92d84639c860\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Labour\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Disarmament and Arms Control: What actions have been taken by the Government to respond to the loss of lives and livelihood caused by the use of cluster munitions in Lebanon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00224e8b5ceafcaf400d9f413ba0b85a1459\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e8b5ceafcaf400d9f413ba0b85a1459\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister for Disarmament and Arms Control):\u003C/span\u003E Today New Zealand will be co-chairing a conference in Norway, which we hope will build momentum towards the international adoption of a legally binding instrument to constrain the use of cluster munitions. New Zealand is playing a leading role at that conference, which will have 45 countries and seven international agencies attending. I was also privileged a fortnight ago to farewell a New Zealand Defence Force contingent that is now working in the Lebanon to locate, map, and destroy cluster munitions and unexploded ordinance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022294ea8daea8643b89351bd1b1eb530ea\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this conference being held outside of the formal UN process, and what does it hope to achieve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bccc2448310b4d9aaa5772131bb33be0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The formal United Nations review conference on conventional weapons last year regrettably failed to agree on a mandate to launch negotiations to restrict cluster munitions use. That was, in our view, an unacceptable outcome. We have therefore embarked on the alternative route of mobilising support to limit the use of cluster munitions. We hope this conference will provide a roadmap towards strengthening the current international humanitarian law to restrict the use and design of those munitions, and, in fact, New Zealand itself is considering holding a further conference after this one to ensure that that momentum keeps on towards that goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4dbdb605c6640b094c3b83e9ebb1ee7\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: What level of contribution is New Zealand making on the ground in Lebanon to deal with cluster munitions, which harm so many hundreds of thousands of young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022564ab12900794ee2a98cde0aa9fb901a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Regrettably, it is young people who are disproportionately the victims of the cluster munitions, which number something like 1.4 million on the ground in south Lebanon. As part of our contribution towards that, we are sending two 10-person explosive ordinance teams that will be based at Tyre in southern Lebanon. They will be working with the United Nations mine coordination centre. The first team is now deployed. It is working in the area where there is the greatest concentration of those munitions. It consists of five people from the Navy and five surveyors from the Army, who will locate and destroy cluster munitions and help people get their lives back together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c20046fb3954452ebf4f6367dfbbf86b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is as concerned about this issue as he should be, has he had any discussions with the Minister responsible for the New Zealand Superannuation Fund to ensure that the New Zealand Superannuation Fund does not invest in companies, or is not an investor in a company, that makes the very cluster bombs he is so outraged about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022391c9022aca64914973ed7e97b66b444\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I have indeed had discussions with the Minister. As the member may well be aware, the Guardians of the New Zealand Superannuation have now divested from, I think, four companies that were manufacturing landmines, and one that was dealing in whale meat. As the member also knows, that board, quite properly, operates at arm\u2019s length from political control\u2014and the member voted for the clause in the bill that required that. The guardians have become members of the United Nations Global Compact, which sets out the requirements for proper investment and proper activity for a good corporate citizen. It is also a founding member of the United Nations Principles for Responsible Investment. It is now looking at areas beyond the international requirements, such as nuclear weapons, to look at whether it is appropriate that New Zealand has any investment in firms dealing with those areas. There will also be a member\u2019s bill before the House. I look forward to seeing how the member votes on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227336af0e5dd049af88e365ac52bed82a\u0022\u003ETaito Phillip Field\u2014Immigration, Associate Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223507afd395444e64a641434bcbae37bd\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: When Taito Phillip Field met with the Associate Minister, Damien O\u2019Connor, on 17 May 2005, to discuss the immigration case of Sunan Siriwan, was the Associate Minister\u2019s private secretary present at that meeting when the Siriwan case was discussed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3883e76aa4e43fdbd80cf847c16d0ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3883e76aa4e43fdbd80cf847c16d0ab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E That has long been a matter of the public record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9570b2b2f654030a6b9829846c140a8\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Ministers are supposed to give an answer\u2014if it can be given\u2014to enhance the public interest, in such cases. For him to simply say it is a matter of public record then sit down is unacceptable. Surely, he could give a simple \u201CYes\u201D or \u201CNo\u201D, or has this whole case become so messy that the Government just does not know how to answer any question about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261eb675c36c541ba961585857397dee9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think the member is right; the Minister could have been more helpful in his reply, though he did address the question. So I would ask the Minister to expand on his reply, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2717246258543afaf3c437c7bf5187b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to the member\u2019s question is set out in the Ingram inquiry report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350bfb4f6b254aa884540d4cf5bef86e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Taito Phillip Field the following day, 18 May 2005, having written to the then Associate Minister Damien O\u2019Connor: \u201CAs a result of my representations on behalf of Mr Siriwan, you have decided\u201D\u2014I repeat \u201Cdecided\u201D\u2014\u201Cthat you would consider favourably a two year work permit to allow him to re-enter New Zealand from Apia, Samoa\u201D, and \u201CYou further decided that a Special Direction will\u201D\u2014I repeat \u201Cwill\u201D\u2014\u201Cbe granted to cancel the 5 year penalty for his spouse\u201D, did the Associate Minister\u2019s private secretary see that letter; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f3437dbde843c589670854978499cc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Although I am not responsible for the internal workings of the offices of former Ministers, including the office of that former Associate Minister, I am advised that the department did not accept Taito Phillip Field\u2019s letter\u2019s version of what happened at that meeting. Quite correctly, the department awaited formal notification from the Associate Minister of the later decision that he subsequently made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022992da630ca634b3e84975fb1f0ea7376\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Were such decisions to \u201Cconsider favourably a two year work permit to allow [Mr Siriwan] to re-renter New Zealand from Apia, Samoa\u201D and to make a special direction \u201Cto cancel the 5 year penalty for his spouse\u201D made at the meeting on 17 May 2005 between Taito Phillip Field, the then Associate Minister Damien O\u2019Connor, and the Associate Minister\u2019s private secretary, Ms Nicola Scotland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289552d10fc41457088122e9fb4842b1e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Although the Ingram inquiry report appears to confirm that the case was discussed, the decision was not made by the then Associate Minister until some weeks later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9e9e685d8a94fd88f671f3158f4a260\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that when Mrs Field presented Taito Phillip Field\u2019s letter detailing the Minister\u2019s alleged decisions to the Apia branch of the New Zealand Immigration Service, the branch manager in Apia faxed the group manager of service international in Wellington the same day asking \u201Cwhether our [Associate] Minister was aware of the information we have received \u2026 regarding these Thai nationals when he apparently made these decisions following discussions with Hon Taito Philip Field.\u201D, and is it correct that the group manager of service international phoned the then Associate Minister\u2019s office the same day to warn him, and spoke to the Associate Minister\u2019s private secretary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f1f4abf7b9f438e92d399467be52d18\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: No and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db940d472c24ff5b616196cb1967cec\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I would hate to see the Minister risk misleading the House. I would invite him to reconsider his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e58a34fc9676472d84c120e2cdd2b6a7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. The Minister has given his answer; he will take responsibility for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b92fcbf5d5b4569b9e956eb2a440a69\u0022\u003ETaito Phillip Field\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. With due respect, I take exception to the slight on my integrity implied by that member\u2019s questions\u2014as he has done for the past 17 months. I make reference to Standing Order 116 and the Speakers\u2019 rulings on pages 38 and 39. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221be2ac2b9d5453ab54a58b4f71479ad\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order, unless, in fact, the member is seeking leave to make a personal explanation. Is the member seeking leave to make a personal explanation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022605a259d67f8459fb8bb4c2d6f006766\u0022\u003ETaito Phillip Field\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I take exception that in the past 17 months that member has continually made allegations about me in this House in question time. I want to make it clear to him that, in fact, a lot of the allegations he has made in this House are quite untrue and have reflected badly on my integrity. If that member has any scrap of evidence to back up the allegations he has been making for that lengthy period of time, I invite him to come out of his closet and make those allegations outside this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2cf9c14e514f8f97d7bd1af47ed707\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider it plausible that the then Associate Minister\u2019s private secretary\u2014who was aware that 2 months earlier the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor had declined visas for both Sunan Siriwan and his partner, Ms Phanngarm; who was present at the crucial meeting on 17 May; and who knew that Taito Phillip Field had misrepresented the outcome of that meeting in his letter of 18 May\u2014would ignore a logged phone call from the head of service international, only a few days later, telling her of Mr Field\u2019s conflict of interest over the same Sunan Siriwan in Samoa, and not say anything to her Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7e203556c9b4b708bc506e7ed88a897\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: That has, for a long time, been recorded as the conclusion of the Ingram inquiry. Crucial to that judgment is the fact that\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. One presumes from the fact that the member opposite has asked some 400 questions on this matter that he would still like to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ede82577bf5d42d88804c97e65db91fd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister continue, please. [Interruption] The Minister has a point. Let the Minister address the question, so that we all can hear it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f302c6b515ae4d41899d501952281164\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I was going on to say that I imagine that among factors that Dr Ingram QC would have taken into account are the facts that the meeting with Taito Phillip Field in question happened on 17 May, and that the first alleged passage of specific information about Sunan Siriwan to the private secretary did not occur until some 3 weeks later, on 9 June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230928feb119d4acfbb79908c7aade00d\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Free Hours Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d287c26738145b5b3e2b43f2df865ae\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by his statement that \u201C86,000 children will definitely get 20 free hours under Labour\u201D; if so, in what time frame will this be achieved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00226d9839ea560846a3be2f0a729013c813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d9839ea560846a3be2f0a729013c813\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Labour)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Education: Yes. Based on current enrolments of 3 and 4-year-olds in teacher-led early childhood centres, Labour\u2019s policy of 20 free hours will definitely be available for up to 92,000 children\u2014more than 86,000\u2014from 1 July. Further, the Minister stands by his statement made prior to the last election that 86,000 children will be worse off under National\u2019s plan to axe the 20 hours\u2019 free policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab699b8826ec4c04aa6735ed5908786b\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister understand why parents are confused about how many kids will actually receive 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education, when he told them, pre-election, that 92,000 children would \u201Cdefinitely get 20 hours under Labour\u201D, then said \u201Cup to 92,000 will get 20 free hours\u201D, and only yesterday said \u201Cpotentially 92,000 children will get 20 free hours\u201D; which is it, because there is a world of difference in those statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e2d0b989994e4ea4af749dfe5e20d6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can understand anyone\u2019s confusion, if he or she listened to that member. There is no confusion in knowing that every single child would be worse off under a National-led Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f4cc8b8c224f078337d5355e190de9\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister sometimes think, as he works his way through the complexities of the 20 hours\u2019 free education policy\u2014particularly with regard to the for-profit sector\u2014that he cannot help but conclude he was thrown a huge hospital pass by his predecessor, Trevor Mallard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022148b0a447d004634bbd5ebc18a719dcb\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, because any opportunity to improve access to early childhood education, which is what our Government is committed to, is worthwhile for the engagement with that part of the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fccc912e42b24d0c97206b0231767822\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any information about how many 3 and 4-year-olds would receive 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education under a National Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b002e19deb124d83abfc3b7ccfccb0c2\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. The answer is, not one single child. The National Party\u2019s policy, as set out clearly on its website, is to scrap 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226247a3b6f1804b45954702cafe5d3cad\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I want to point out that the Minister had no ministerial responsibility in the context of the question asked, but I realise that to do so would be a waste of time. The reality is that one cannot scrap a policy that cannot be implemented. There is nothing for National to scrap, because Labour is not doing anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290bfb2fe86884ae1a386ad1466329427\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister answer the question that every parent wants to know the answer to, which is whether it will be that 92,000 children will \u201Cdefinitely get 20 hours under Labour\u201D, that \u201Cup to 92,000 will get 20 free hours\u201D, or, as the Minister said yesterday, \u201Cpotentially 92,000 children will get 20 free hours\u201D\u2014which is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a610576160343ab825671fdfe1149a7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, \u201Cup to\u201D and \u201Cpotentially\u201D mean exactly the same thing. I clarify for the member, who seems to be the only confused person in the country, that Labour\u2019s 20 hours\u2019 free policy will be available to 3 and 4-year-olds in all teacher-led early childhood education centres from 1 July this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286619f4f7c4545d79a439c2b8b340d4f\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: When some centres are planning to charge top-up donations, which will basically be compulsory fees if parents want their kids to be in that centre, how can 20 hours\u2019 free education be free if they are not free, or is that just loony Labour Government logic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec61caa3ce684fb4b67b3c4d02a734cb\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: This has been explained to the member previously, but I will try to do so once more because she clearly remains confused. The key rule is that parents cannot be charged for 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education. That is the key part of the meaning of \u201Cfree\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf70888f63d34c2dafd6379b5a93c5c5\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to centres that need to insist on a voluntary parental payment just to cover costs, and are very concerned that these payments do not provide enough security of income to run a centre?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1165086d5294e5581a46ddd50a8082a\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would say to those centres that they would be very, very unlikely to get any increased funding from a National Government, as would parents, who would not gain one scrap, because not one single child would have any free early childhood education under that member\u2019s policy. The subsidy will cover all operating costs, including teachers\u2019 salaries, administrations costs, professional services, utilities, capital and property costs such as rent or mortgage, and the repayment and replacement of assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4b17b83d1b445868ae343cfc77030d5\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Minister admit to parents that 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education was simply a slogan, and that parents will need to top up this subsidy with a so-called voluntary payment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228039b33385944ce281d522b770f5ffb3\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all, because it is just not true\u2014wrong again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022925785ca73894dd2bbdaa91afff55f43\u0022\u003EAlgerian Refugee\u2014Security Risk Certificate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c3ed1d140443599768d7e9612a7b8a\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: To what extent, if any, did the police threat assessment of Ahmed Zaoui, an assessment criticised as \u201Cnot well considered nor well constructed\u201D in a 9 January 2007 report by Judge Ian Borrin of the Police Complaints Authority, contribute to the Minister\u2019s decision to rely on a security risk certificate applying to Algerian refugee Ahmed Zaoui?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022a70f131747fb44f7908e0c76d80082bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a70f131747fb44f7908e0c76d80082bc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I was, of course, not privy to the briefing to the former Minister of Immigration by the Director of Security before the Minister\u2019s decision to rely upon the security risk certificate. However, I am advised that the police play no role in the statutory briefing process. In accordance with section 114E(3) of the Immigration Act 1987, the contents of that briefing must remain confidential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c8bd3d5349d472ea241ee6f4d51cd9c\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Was it because the Minister in some way relied on the flawed police threat assessment against Mr Zaoui, which falsely claimed that he was a senior member of the terrorist GIA group, that the Minister\u2019s department actually supported Mr Zaoui spending 10 months in solitary confinement in P\u0101remoremo prison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022728abc4828c7440d8a67abc9c8108a3f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: My first answer applies equally to the second question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c12a26dd2d0c49669f1af3d4cc6effd9\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: In what way would the presence in New Zealand of Leila Zaoui and her four children prejudice the current review of the security risk certificate, and why is the Minister so heartless in not allowing the family to be reunited, at least while the very long-drawn-out review of Mr Zaoui\u2019s status is completed and the Minister makes a decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce8133cf9ba4494b1788742af9b25fc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It is important that because there is a chance that the substantive decision in respect of Mr Zaoui will later come to my desk, I do not now pre-empt the substance of that decision. Therefore, I must live with the possibility of the perception of heartlessness in order to ensure that that decision is not prejudiced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6b60fbb3fd43c3a3b7922c07bbe0c1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would members please lower the level of chatter. It is very difficult to hear members sometimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224713d875347c482fa20ab8c0e37c7b94\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question specifically asked in what way the presence of Leila Zaoui and her children would prejudice the Minister\u2019s decision. He did not answer how it would prejudice the decision he talked about when giving his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022080d4e08fc664de4b73f919fd6f10e57\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister did, in the context, address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3de11eb019f481cbd4d1eb832518356\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm that when a security risk certificate is issued against a suspected terrorist, he has no choice but to rely on that advice, and that he has no influence over Ahmed Zaoui\u2019s fate until the decision regarding the security risk certificate is reached by the SIS\u2014unlike Mr Zaoui, who does have a choice: he can seek assistance with documentation, get on a plane, and go tomorrow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc22d185d164996aee30f56563a8813\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I would not characterise the obligations on this Minister in the way that the member has just done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b459c5df7ef41a2a18a67f33caf07a4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That is a most unsatisfactory answer. I asked the Minister a specific question about the procedure and the limitations controlling the procedure. I think the Minister should give this House an answer. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1607e28f9be44bb8cf8ef2ebf96ba0d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot hear what members are saying. Would the Minister please expand on his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a45b3010be34725b200266c7a832ebc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: To be more direct, the member was wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de9d87364404326ab1cadb49f4c76b0\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: How much incompetence and bungling from various State agencies, particularly the police and the SIS, will it take in this long-drawn-out affair of 4 years, going on 5 years, before the Minister lifts the security risk certificate against Mr Zaoui; has the Minister given any consideration to the fact that the inspector-general\u2019s term expires in June\u2014that is, before the hearing is even due to begin\u2014and has he any contingency planning about what to do in that circumstance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c414da4749a148f49d575210c622dbf5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Although I have no ministerial responsibility for the term of the inspector-general, I have stated publicly, previously, that I share the concern of many New Zealanders that this process should be expedited as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647373c9775345af94345c3a066813f8\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the Police Complaints Authority report dated 9 January 2007, which is very critical of the police\u2019s role\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c1fed1874846a4be19957b2429a282\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table an Amnesty International statement of 24 April 2006 explaining the secret detention and torture that goes on in Algeria today, which makes it impossible for Mr Zaoui to return there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022154181f7f1f14591b08937ec9ec1ba6b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243620f4a3161465da8464f5ba83e6435\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. We seek to be more specific about these things. Mr Locke has just asked whether he can table a document outlining secret torture. Well, if it is such a secret, how come he has a document on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227564b28db5264369a1de0a32545a5799\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that is not a point of order; however, it has provoked another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dd50d8050ba46dbab3f8f381c044aca\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The document here, which I think Mr Brownlee could read as it is easily available, talks about detainees in secret detention and about being tortured\u2014secret detention and torture, I tell Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225781a8cf7a1d4952aeb934b8990da1e9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can we now move on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244569aae23654eed84351ec15afd3d83\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I tried to table that document because there was a reference made by a member to Mr Zaoui being able to go home. I now seek leave to table, from the New Zealand Herald of 9 February, a statement where Mr Zaoui hotly disputes Mr Peter Brown\u2019s assertion, and says that he has no passport to enable him to return home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2dc80f04254d6db5b5d5fa8ff5cb0b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4b15917d1e5490ebec36d6727ba0f42\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation\u2014Covered Publicity Campaign\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da05cc27f704b2d85e5b14ba9268e0a\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: How much does the Covered publicity campaign currently being run by the Accident Compensation Corporation cost and is she supportive of its message?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00227cceaa9ad920430b86afc34d471f2ff2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cceaa9ad920430b86afc34d471f2ff2\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E The Covered campaign, designed to inform New Zealanders of their entitlements under the accident compensation scheme, will cost $5.1 million over 4 years. The cost of this campaign represents 0.0012 percent of the $1.9 billion that the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) spends assisting injured people per year. Broken down further, it represents a cost of 7.75c per person per year. The cost of the campaign will be met out of ACC\u2019s current communications budget, and, yes, I am very supportive of the message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224aedc3ada8948b7b8ad24d2db2be9e2\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Does that mean the Minister agrees with this statement on the ACC website for the Covered campaign: \u201CNew Zealand is the only country where everyone is protected with this kind of injury cover\u2014even if it was something you did that caused the injury.\u201D; if so, is that why she has not ruled out compensation for the previously convicted killer Graeme Burton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec07aa6953f42478c1e6e1ffd10ce6c\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes and no. Yes, I support the message, because it is factually correct. It is important that all people know that even if it is their own fault that they are injured, they are entitled to receive accident compensation cover. I do not support, despite that statement, cover for people who have committed crimes such as that indicated by the member. In fact, that was indicated in comments made at the time of the Graeme Burton murder, by the chief operating officer, Gerard McGreevy. I will quote from them, to perfectly clarify the matter for the member, who clearly did not read them: \u201CWhile someone is imprisoned, they are not entitled to any form of compensation from ACC, apart from treatment for their injury. Any periodic ACC payments cease for the period of imprisonment, and there is no eligibility for back payment.\u201D I am sure that clarifies the issue for the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c62b0cf669434f2d830c53bb48fa00e5\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Why is ACC running the Covered campaign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f71af97f1e314ef58d49279025a1c8f0\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The reason ACC is running the Covered campaign is that research has shown that many people, particularly M\u0101ori, Pacific, and Asian people, do not have any understanding at all of the accident compensation scheme. As a publicly funded organisation, ACC has a duty to inform all New Zealanders of their entitlements. Unlike the National Party, which has been deceptive towards the public about its privatisation plans, as demonstrated at the last election when details of its accident compensation policy were \u201Cdeliberately kept out\u201D, our Government is proud of our world-class scheme, and wants the public to be knowledgable about it and enjoy their full entitlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53b3606db9a4759ac3a3ce303692418\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Does that mean the Minister agrees with the ACC spokesman that while Graeme Burton is in prison he will not be entitled to compensation, but afterwards he will be able to file for compensation; if that is the case, how does she think the family of the late Mr Karl Kuchenbecker, who was gunned down by Graeme Burton while he was on parole, will feel, when she will not rule out compensation, full stop?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022004dc36ee5564386a5ad55bf566de844\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I explained to the member in answer to a previous supplementary question, there is no eligibility for back payment. When Graeme Burton is released, he is entitled to apply for lump-sum compensation, and ACC rather than the Minister\u2014as the member would find out, if she would care to read the legislation for which she now has responsibility as Opposition spokesperson\u2014must then apply to the District Court. I will read the particular reference: \u201Cfor a declaration that such a payment would be repugnant to justice, and therefore should not be made.\u201D ACC has previously exercised its\u2014not the Minister\u2019s\u2014statutory power in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf746e07c1d459d80de3f516c96133f\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister assure the family of the innocent victims of the saga of the parole fiasco that ACC will apply to the court to make sure, or the Minister will do something to make sure, that compensation categorically will not happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225420d07f5a7d4e80a96aa7ce904f6b2e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Tempting though it may be on many occasions, I will not rise to the temptation of instructing the District Court on its response to any application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276826701c3a24c65893ca2fa4eb4beca\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: How does ACC justify the cost-effectiveness of this $5 million Covered campaign, when it has rejected on the grounds of cost-effectiveness its own pilot study that shows that increasing the subsidy for a family doctor visit by $10 would increase by 3 percent the number of people in the target group who visit those doctors; how can the corporation justify, and how does the Minister support, the cost-effectiveness of this $5 million programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022387f5989ff6547e4b65e0c9dd85af7ed\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is confusing two very different incentives for ensuring that people have access to treatment and to cover. In addition to a comprehensive research programme aimed at finding out exactly what New Zealanders did know, 5,000 people\u2014predominantly, M\u0101ori, Pacific, and Asian people\u2014took part in face-to-face interviews. During those, people said they did not know they were entitled to accident compensation cover. Having education about the right to apply is quite different from having entitlement to go to the doctor. I have to add that it is a bit rich for that member to be promoting a higher level of subsidy for doctors, when through her party\u2019s entire 9 years of Government the only alteration it made to doctors\u2019 subsidies was in 1992, when they were cut by 15 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad07823892fd4346aa821fd63510632e\u0022\u003EWellington City Council\u2014Social Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217f655061d8d4eaba6e526bfd6fdf513\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What assistance is the Government providing to Wellington City Council to upgrade its social housing stock?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022121f889bfbca4e7aa41da36a52987b64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022121f889bfbca4e7aa41da36a52987b64\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Today, with the Mayor of Wellington, Kerry Prendergast, and my colleagues Annette King, Mahara Okeroa, Marian Hobbs, and Charles Chauvel, I announced a $220 million partnership with Wellington City Council to substantially upgrade its 2,354 social housing units. In return, the council has agreed to stay in social housing for 30 years, to reinvest rental income back into the maintenance of its homes, and to improve tenancy management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204cbba2f5d404fc990a5f0ec15249257\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: What outcomes is the Government expecting from this investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c82b01480a4949dfb89b426945e4adaf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Wellington City Council is the second-largest landlord in the region, housing approximately 4,000 elderly, low-income, or disadvantaged tenants\u2014more than 11 percent of all rental housing in this city. Ensuring the supply of affordable, quality housing is a priority issue the Government is progressing through its \u201Cfamilies\u2014young and old\u201D theme. This contrasts sharply with the \u201Chollow men\u201D opposite who started selling State houses again\u2014a policy Mr Key is so embarrassed about he runs for cover every time it comes up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8f9036baf1841569cddf811eea283b4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would members please keep the noise down. It is impossible for members to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b411451e593b4b459953ac36df5dd49b\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why have State and council housing waiting lists mushroomed year on year across the country since 2001, even though more houses have been provided; is it because Kiwis are poorer, there is a growing underclass in New Zealand, and fewer people can afford their own home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd8c820f643f48468ebe359d6962b7c7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would members on the Government benches please keep their interventions down, otherwise people will be leaving the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297e7b9707ec5428d8fe5a6157a8d8ddc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There are two simple and logical explanations. Firstly, people can now afford State house rents because they pay income-related rents. Previously under the National Government they paid market rents. Secondly, and just as important, National sold off 13,000 houses\u2014not to tenants mostly, but to speculators. If we still had those 13,000 houses, we would not have a waiting list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022204bb6ebbd034744a65a98aaff15ee41\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Does the support given by Government to the Wellington City Council allow for that council to implement a rent-to-buy scheme of its housing stock; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f9dacddf652437882e74b1fcef04438\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Housing remains a need in all parts of New Zealand. This Government is committed to keeping social housing as part of that opportunity to provide affordable housing for people who still need to rent houses. Wellington City Council is following the same programme, and I applaud it for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea59ab1c1f5746528d3ca2d62612cd71\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government given assistance to any other councils around New Zealand to upgrade, improve, or build new social housing stock?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208f5d9397b2e474280ac9599d7076a3a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In 2003 the Government established the Housing Innovation Fund to support social housing projects through partnerships with local authorities and not-for-profit organisations. As of 31 January 2007 loans and grants worth more than $38 million had been made, with a further $14.5 million expected for this year. A very good example of that is the $5.2 million loaned to the Horowhenua District Council, championed by that member, that enabled the council to build 40 new pensioner flats and modernise 70 existing units in Levin, Shannon, and Foxton. I seek leave to table a document taken from The Hollow Men that states National would renew its 1990s programme of selling State houses to provide homeownership, by the former leader Mr Brash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229783e3d8422e4fbb8127a44445372e6f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b429975f58c4034be7b528792211a22\u0022\u003ETreaty of Waitangi Settlements\u2014Prime Minister\u0027s Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0e4e4500f64efe9f838d51f90081e8\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: Does he agree with the Prime Minister when she said in her prime ministerial statement of 13 February 2007 that: \u201CThe historical Treaty settlement process has considerable momentum.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022f57d84d0634e4a56919617ed8c83a678\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f57d84d0634e4a56919617ed8c83a678\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because the Prime Minister is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c97845a02d0448aa012e70eadf9ff16\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: How can the process have momentum when the Government, at a time when it expects a huge increase in Treaty claims, has reduced inflation-adjusted funding to the Office of Treaty Settlements by almost half a million dollars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdd701544aa416bbd1ad2f22b0ea1dd\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The fact is that over the last four Budgets the Office of Treaty Settlements has been able to facilitate claims in greater numbers through the installation of a claims development team, a new negotiations team that was established in 2003, and a policy, strategy, and legal team that was established in 2004. New initiative funding of $5.174 million was in last year\u2019s Budget to further enhance its capability. The Office of Treaty Settlements has more negotiators than it had. I suggest to the member that the maths is self-evident. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204b9d0341e83428884f3233e71ac13c0\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: I will treat that as an address to the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022600fd27fcf054feeb2cc070f8d614dca\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was an address to the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d1804b02fd941e8a55aeaa057227fa7\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: That is why I did not raise a point of order. How can the process have momentum when over the 7 years the Government has been in office, inflation-adjusted funding for the Waitangi Tribunal has increased by just $305,000\u2014or by an average of just over $43,000 a year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221835baab76374364b7e7789bea9ef4c4\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest that if the member wants to put down a question to the Minister responsible for the Waitangi Tribunal, he should do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244215daa434a446885a829bb999a5681\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that there is momentum in the Treaty settlement process when both Treaty partners trust one another and have a positive attitude towards settling grievances; and by reference to Hauraki iwi, will not the sale of Landcorp\u2019s Whenuakite Station at Whitianga cause serious insult to Hauraki iwi and indeed slow the momentum of the settlement process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c854a181e26a4e03a2733455a49eac74\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest that the record of negotiations in the last 2 years\u2014three deeds of mandate have been recognised, two terms of negotiations have been signed, two agreements in principle have been signed, two deeds of settlement have been initialled, two deeds of settlement have been signed, two settlement bills have been introduced, and two settlement bills have been passed\u2014suggests that there is indeed a momentum. As to the specific case of Hauraki, which is not yet in negotiation, the time and place for the Crown and mandated negotiators to discuss that matter is in face-to-face negotiation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba2e99514964e1b860d66227bd8c977\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, kia ora t\u0101tou. In order that the considerable momentum of the historical Treaty settlement process can be maintained, could the Minister indicate what the appropriate circumstances might be that would enable Landcorp properties to be used as redress for Ng\u0101ti Kahu lands in the north and Ng\u0101ti Hei lands in Hauraki that were stolen by the Crown; and, similarly, for the Raurimu and Taurewa blocks in the National Park area, which are at present being considered by the Waitangi Tribunal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e495337ac234a04b43c10bf912755a6\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Although I am not prepared to enter into discussion about specific negotiations\u2014because the time and place for that is between mandated negotiators and Crown negotiators\u2014the general principle would be that it is when no suitable holdings exist in order to make suitable redress offers to claimant groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a2f83ac6c3b45f3a818a6c7cfb8ec8e\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that there could be considerable momentum and goodwill created in Hauraki if Whenuakite Station were to be held by the Crown or a holding entity in order to preserve the status quo pending negotiation of the total Hauraki settlement, and will the Minister consider this option?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dbc984a96864faea81fc88db3994556\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not clear whether the member is asking that question as an MP, or as a barrister on behalf of a claimant, as he has in the past, but I suggest to the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc287be223c4918981ca676affdcd17\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. That was clearly a breach of the Standing Orders. The Minister should be pulled into line. That implied that the member asking the question was somehow under the influence or direction of persons outside of this House, and, as you well know, that is quite inappropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022addccb6115094321897d2db6d0e6c87a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: If that was the impression gained, I do apologise. That certainly was not my intent. I was simply drawing attention to the fact that I am aware of the member\u2019s considerable career in representing various claimant groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9195914bb8d40e689f0944af7330a9d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As long as there was no such implication. Would the Minister please just address the substance of the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8a50f9943594a5c92301c2ffdcd2c72\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The critical thing is that the time and place to engage in a negotiation is when it is between mandated negotiators from that area and Crown negotiators. I have met recently with representatives of the area, and when there is an opportunity for us to engage with mandated negotiators, we will happily do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f175a0bc19f6412888bd2182985c625d\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Madam Speaker, kia ora t\u0101tou te Whare. What is the basis for this Labour Government now saying that the Crown\u2019s policy is that Landcorp properties are generally not available for use in settlements, given that Landcorp properties were generally available\u2014in fact, were specifically and deliberately available\u2014for use in settlements during the reign of the National Government and given that there have been no publicly notifiable changes to the relevant legislation or regulation since that time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad45acee73b04517b8bb78a2a6f6cf22\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Essentially, as I indicated in answers yesterday, in particular, and to some extent today, when there are, as a first preference, other easily available properties for redress, the first option is to use those. It is not ruled out, as I know that the member understands, that under other circumstances, such as when the tribunal orders it, those properties may well come into play under resumption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6acc67b250f4c8c95ed1c3004ed72c7\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the truth of the matter that there has only ever been momentum in the Treaty settlement process when National has been in office, as evidenced by the ongoing decline in funding for the Office of Treaty Settlements by this Government, and the incompetent manner in which the Minister is dealing with Hauraki iwi over Whenuakite Station?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a0e24b0c2a413bab4ef0f28e099c04\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst I have considerable regard for my predecessor the Hon Doug Graham\u2014[Interruption] one of my predecessors; of course the other, I would not want to draw into the debate\u2014and the work he did in this very difficult portfolio, I have to say that the member is wrong. It seems the member does understand the cost of some things but the value of little. I repeat to the member that I cannot enter into a negotiation until there is a mandated negotiator to negotiate with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a279cab672e04c88a170fdd2655ebcd3\u0022\u003EZimbabwe Residence Policy\u2014HIV/AIDS Waiver\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea809cddccb4e2ca967a58aa40f4243\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: How many Zimbabweans, as of 21 February 2007, have applied for residency under the Special Zimbabwe Residence Policy following the HIV/AIDS waiver announced on 30 August 2006, and how many of the remaining 800 who were eligible under the policy as at 30 August 2006 have yet to apply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002263a29cfef2e84a119609535223d69139\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263a29cfef2e84a119609535223d69139\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the original estimate of 800 has been subsequently refined to 460. Of those, as at the first week of February 2007\u2014the most recent point for which data is available\u2014approximately 134 eligible persons had yet to apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f866a82298714c37befab766368f3800\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain the discrepancy between his answer to a written question, which stated that 85 of the 800 eligible Zimbabweans had applied as of 13 February 2007, and his media statement, made on 15 February 2007, which stated that only 130 of the 800 had yet to apply\u2014because now, by downsizing the number, he has added to the confusion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e9093ff4494d45a5e3f7f31461c6f8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I will be happy to check the exact basis of the two figures that the member quoted earlier. But I think the member\u2014and all members of the House\u2014would agree with me that it is indeed a good thing for New Zealand that the number outstanding is reduced, and that officers of the Department of Labour are checking on an individual basis with the 134 people who have yet to apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a47f936fb574ebcb7f0817c423169ea\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister give the House an assurance that he will seek the removal of all Zimbabweans who do not conform and apply for residency before 28 February?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281d5d3b529f94ae38861472dcf13b02e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s policy on this matter is clear: that any member of the community who fails to apply by the deadline date can have no guarantee of residence, as those who applied before that date do under the policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e9dd13bd318432b8fb19e8f669f4839\u0022\u003EAgent Orange\u2014Memorandum of Understanding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dbad10849504e229c3b117f5c4ca098\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs: What progress has been made in implementing the Memorandum of Understanding signed between the Government and the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services Association and the Ex-Vietnam Services Association and announced on 7 December 2006?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022444aae5cc9d949dd8dc3494bf4442810\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022444aae5cc9d949dd8dc3494bf4442810\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Veterans\u2019 Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E A joint implementation group has been established to ensure the effective implementation of the memorandum of understanding. The group is comprised of membership from the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services Association, the Ex-Vietnam Services Association, and key Government agencies. Work is already under way to deliver on this Government\u2019s commitment to the provisions of the memorandum of understanding. This is the first time in 30 years that any New Zealand Government has acknowledged the concerns of Viet Nam veterans and their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f2e4d9a6ec4701a386ad3ccaffdf1d\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister received that no money will be available until the next financial year to pay those Viet Nam veterans suffering from a prescribed condition the promised ex gratia payment of $40,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac250179f6cb4d60ada84adde1c0dada\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received no such reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f7801fb60d44389ab49fdd18c69129f\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House what initiatives, if any, are currently being worked on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022731a44c6509949228039373ec87c3df8\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In late 2006 both the Prime Minister and I announced at the Royal New Zealand Returned and Services Association\u2019s annual conference that work would begin on rewriting the War Pensions Act\u2014an Act that has not been touched since 1954, and which is based on the archaic legislation of 1915. We will be working closely with all interested veterans\u2019 organisations to ensure that the final results improve the delivery of services to veterans and their families. As well as this, I have initiated a review of Veterans Affairs New Zealand alongside the working party review to ensure that Veterans Affairs New Zealand is set up to be able to deliver its services as effectively as possible in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225150e2cdc6054bd1b0c8d4a0d94eb393\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept as reliable the estimate made by Viet Nam veteran Vic Johnson that a further 20 Viet Nam veterans will die before the implementation of understanding; if he does not, why does he not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ba4916e9fbd4f5e8b4ee3ac3bdf7887\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not familiar with the calculation of Mr Johnson and I do not know what basis he has made the calculation on. I can say to the member that if a person was currently in receipt of a war disablement pension for one of the prescribed conditions and was suddenly deceased, then I would expect the payout to be made very quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234d12fcfe8bf496a8ca85391e4e35697\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister able to confirm that his own handling of this issue has been cited as a cause for complaint by the director of Veterans Affairs, and can he confirm to the House that the director has lodged a substantial personal grievance claim against the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e0c8802dcd42a4b30da81df97345b4\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm neither of those allegations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4fbbbf1b374404198c64c389454393d\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Can we take it from the Minister\u2019s statement that no personal grievance claim has been lodged by the director of Veterans Affairs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022547aa2392d8141eaa09034d5b2c5c2bf\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat for the member, for the sake of clarity\u2014belt and braces\u2014I have no knowledge of the matter that the member has spoken about, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eaed41ef4b17460d824aed83af813d1a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227faa57e13f4f42b8a9a2310fd98c4dab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227faa57e13f4f42b8a9a2310fd98c4dab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a report explaining how the Hon Dr Nick Smith got it wrong in question No. 1 today. It shows that the Prime Minister opened a recycling centre at Awapuni, not a power station, as it was described by the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00225956eb407102427a90b358b810b29300\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225956eb407102427a90b358b810b29300\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table the New Zealand Press Association report on the station that was opened and reports it as a power station, turning methane into power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739346665f8c436992043359f7ac2eb1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022833faa61a91347cb9dc1e0f62d54e9d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022833faa61a91347cb9dc1e0f62d54e9d8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a photograph of me opening that Awapuni power plant on 15 September last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279b0872cff184e58a6f2c501d3aa91e7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022600c2e434d2f43d2a71f6dab21cd5f82\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022258d7290b7a84431bd87bb417fb2a7db\u0022\u003ETaito Phillip Field\u2014Reference to Family\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u002208e16b1d474846ab90b9631bd7969cb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208e16b1d474846ab90b9631bd7969cb1\u0022\u003ETAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Independent\u2014Mangere):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. With due respect, I noted that Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith made reference to my wife, not only today but on many other occasions. I want to point out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3296ee130624b99aa114b71b3ff9d0c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order, I am sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294134e893fe94722aaa27b587fcc17c6\u0022\u003ETAITO PHILLIP FIELD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I thought there was a convention that states that reference to members\u2019 spouses and families should not be raised on the floor of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dccb1563a914e32a854c465db97c9ea\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that if members want to raise such matters they must do it at the time the matter is first raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002292d8a59233274b3e9a636898ddf5a989\u0022\u003EInjury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022359bddbfd1a64cb48bb7b408a185a812\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000255\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 20 February.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3ec7e6a558944808b6d651a26e6b38d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3ec7e6a558944808b6d651a26e6b38d\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Just to recap on National\u2019s opposition to the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill, the key point is that by merging the employers\u2019 account and the self-employed work account the Government is defying the basic insurance principle of matching premiums or levies with risk. What will happen with the merger of the employers\u2019 account, which is associated with lower accident rates and lower claims, with the self-employed work account, which is associated with higher accident rates and, of course, higher claims, is that the employers\u2019 account will then be subsidising the self-employed work account. In fact, the self-employed have twice the rate of entitlement claims as employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis bill means that the concept of experience-rating will be completely ignored, and those with higher injury rates who take greater risks will pay the same premiums as those with lower injury rates who are risk-averse. I think it is just a matter of common sense that that is an unjust situation. In fact, this will be an actuarial nightmare that goes against all the established principles of premiums being determined by risk. The upshot of this arrangement is that it will establish a perverse incentive. It will not be worthwhile investing in safety for one\u2019s business or one\u2019s workers because it will not be reflected in the accident compensation premium. This bill effectively rewards those individuals who take high risks and incur a higher rate of accidents, because they will be cross-subsidised by the employers\u2019 account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s argument that the self-employed tend to cluster in high-risk jobs just shows how out of touch it is with the realities of work and business today. A huge proportion of New Zealand workers are now in the service industry, working behind desks, working in jobs such as information technology, and working as consultants. The Government cannot carp on about economic transformation and then pretend that the New Zealand workforce is now made up of chainsaw wielding, self-employed people. The reality is that most of the self-employed in this country work in relatively safe environments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis bill will be yet another nail in the coffin of this Government\u2019s relationship with New Zealand business. It is a significant mark of bad faith that after employers have paid into this account over many years, on the understanding that it would be fully funded, the surplus that has built up will now be used to subsidise the self-employed. If the Government really did care about business, and if it were really serious about encouraging people to provide employment, it would pay that surplus back to the employers. With this bill, there really is not going to be a heck of a lot of incentive to stay in this country and continue to run a business. It is just one more nail in the coffin of New Zealand business. But one also has to ask: why is this merger of the accounts being rushed through with such indecent haste, and why is the levy consultation period for 2007-08 being bypassed? It is the mark of the arrogance of this Government that it has cynically weighed up the situation. It has decided that there will not be enough electoral damage for it to justify adhering to the normal consultation process. After forcing through the election spending validation legislation last year the Government has grown blas\u00E9 about the need to follow the established rules and precedents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis bill will also undermine what has been to date an efficient and successful part of the accident compensation workplace injury industry\u2014the Accredited Employers Programme. The bill will make this account very unattractive. Employers will, therefore, opt out of this scheme, which will add yet more cost to the new merged account and add even greater liabilities to the residual account. Perhaps this is what Minister Dyson wants\u2014to undermine a successful private sector venture so that it fails, which she can then try to blame on the private sector itself instead of taking responsibility as a Government Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EOne has to ask: why, exactly, after 7 long years in Government, is Labour so eager to rush this legislation through in the space of just a few short months without giving the New Zealand public the right to be heard on the matter? Is not the unpalatable answer that this legislation is all about preparing the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) for life under a National Government and setting up an environment whereby it will be a lot more difficult for private insurers to enter the market in 2008 and make it work? Is it not all about the Government positioning accident compensation for the potential competitive environment, once the electorate has finally rejected this tired, deceitful Government, rather than helping employers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EHow exactly will this be achieved? Basically ACC will move as many claims as possible to the residual account, which the corporation can control now and into the future because it does not believe it will ever be put up for competition. It is going to reduce the number of claims under the employers\u2019 account management framework, thereby taking claims away from the management of employers who are presently within the ACC partnership programme. Finally, it will reduce the rating structure by a number of means: moving claims to the residual account; discounting the rate now, and then progressively increasing it over the following years; and removing the rate stability levy. The corporation will be transferring the liability to the residual account, but not the collective premium. All this will result in fewer claims and a lower rate in the employers\u2019 account, and therefore a reduced premium pool. The upshot of it all is that it will be a lot more difficult for private insurers to enter the new market and to make it work\u2014and that is the Government\u2019s aim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EObviously, the issues around this bill show a very clear and distinct philosophical difference between the Government and centre-right parties. Our policy is centred on early rehabilitation, incentives, and a system that provides a choice of insurer. Our current monopolistic system is perfect for this Government, which runs screaming at any mention of choice and competition in accident compensation. However, such a system does not benefit New Zealanders; it benefits only the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s changes to accident compensation in 1999\u2014although in effect for only 9 months, before the change of Government\u2014saw a decrease in the number of injuries, as well as a decrease in the levies that employers, the self-employed, and others paid. Interestingly, since Labour took office accident compensation claims have risen each year. This is despite its claims that a monopoly system is so great, so fair, and so efficient. Severe and moderate injuries have also risen, despite the Government continually pouring money into accident prevention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EI will finish by restating that what needs to happen for the workplace injury accident compensation industry to become efficient, fair, and successful is an opening up of accident compensation to competition. Competition will provide incentives for workplace safety, it will provide greater efficiency in the industry, and it will provide fairness for both the self-employed and the non - self-employed. A choice in accident compensation delivers better results for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003EThis bill is not about fairness, and it is not about choice. It is not about open consultation, and it is certainly not about the best interests of workers and business in New Zealand. It is about a Government that is so bogged down in ideology that it is now incapable of doing the right thing by working people. For a Labour Government, that is very sad indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002233a39fc594b649608d943df6c302b733\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c04634248144efe9f7ae7084bb2e034\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd29a34a0c2c453583b4773c7049df03\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00223d1f7e6634674c589a62ff98080da119\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d1f7e6634674c589a62ff98080da119\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the House is in agreement, I ask Mr Barnett to assume the Chair. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e49722ec898142d8a6644dffb5397ce8\u0022\u003EJudicial Retirement Age Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0a122f2fb404795b7b2af7905f66fb0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca174b30b67d433082818b8a54e38126\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002203ccff6eee71400382bb34801bde874a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203ccff6eee71400382bb34801bde874a\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Congratulations, Mr Chairman, on your promotion. I think it befits you very well. I am just sorry that the Minister in the chair, Rick Barker, had to turn up, because Winnie Laban was far more attractive and far more pleasant. But there we go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI will briefly address Part 1\u2014and I place emphasis on the adverb \u201Cbriefly\u201D, because Part 1 simply deals with the machinery aspects of the bill. We do not yet know when the Act will come into force, but the purpose clause succinctly states exactly what this bill is all about. As I said in my speech the other night, in 1980 the retiring age for judges was reduced from 72 to 68. That reduction in the retirement age was consequent upon the Beattie commission on the courts, which reported in 1979. As I observed in my speech, there was no discussion of the rationale for reducing the age. That is why I think that the other night all speakers, from both sides of the House, tried to explain the rationale for at least increasing it. The bill brings the age of retirement for High Court judges and the other judges mentioned into line with other jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPerhaps I should observe that every judge of the High Court, Court of Appeal, and Supreme Court is sworn in as a High Court judge, even though certain of them\u2014nine in the Court of Appeal, and five in the Supreme Court\u2014sit as appellate court judges. So when we see the term \u201Cjudges\u201D in relation to High Court judges, we know that it also includes Court of Appeal judges and Supreme Court judges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI think that other speakers apart from myself also mentioned the fact that in many states of the United States the retirement age is around 70. In the United Kingdom, Australia, and Canada the retirement age is about 70. Some jurisdictions have no retirement age. Indeed, that issue was touched on by my friend Dr Worth in his speech when he sought to explain the rationale for why there is a retirement age. If there is no retirement age, there is the risk that judges can stay on for far too long and can, in fact, become an impediment to justice. I can think of a number of foreign judges who come into that category. They simply sat on the United States Supreme Court or the English Court of Appeal for too long. I recall very clearly the case of Lord Denning, a former Master of the Rolls. He was an outstanding judge\u2014probably one of the greatest judges in Anglo - New Zealand - Australian history\u2014but he left his high office in a very tragic way. He had stayed on too long and made some silly remark about a jury, which hastened his pretty well immediate retirement. I think that when he retired he was about 88. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo there are very good reasons for having a retirement age, but there are extremely good reasons for the age of retirement to be increased from 68 to 70 years. This reflects increasing longevity on the part of all of us and the fact that judging is an art that requires much reflection. It is a job that is naturally suited to people in their 60s and into their early 70s\u2014I say into their early 70s because, on occasion, judges will be asked to come back as temporary judges. In the case of judges of the Supreme Court, after their retirement they can come back and sit until the age of 75. From time to time in the High Court there are judges who come back and sit after their retirement in order to assist with workloads and so on. That principle applies not only to judges of the superior courts and the appellate court but also to associate judges of the High Court and, quite sensibly, to coroners and community magistrates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs I said a few days ago, National supports this legislation. It is a sensible provision that we are dealing with here. I do not think I need to detain the Committee any longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00227c8e60b3318e4c18ba3f0ee1e75c9f0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c8e60b3318e4c18ba3f0ee1e75c9f0d\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E As the previous speaker, Chris Finlayson, said, this important legislation\u2014the Judicial Retirement Age Bill, which National supports\u2014raises the statutory retirement age for all judges, associate judges of the High Court, coroners, and community magistrates in New Zealand, from the age of 68 to the more magic age of 70.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBut it is not in this part of the debate that I want to focus on clause 3\u2014that all-important purpose clause. Instead, I want to take a moment to deal with the commencement provision, which is contained in clause 2. It is simply stated: \u201CThis Act comes into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal Assent.\u201D As those who follow the parliamentary process know only too well, a bill must set out precisely when it is proposed to come into force. This rule reflects the legal rule that an Act comes into force on the date stated or provided for in the Act. That rule is contained in the Interpretation Act 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn principle, the commencement provision should fix a precise date, but the commencement of legislation can be deferred for it to be brought into force by Order in Council, where there are considered to be good reasons for doing so. In this case, of course, the Act will come into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent. But if that were not so, in the circumstances that I have spoken about that relate to Acts coming into force by Order in Council, the reasons for deferring the commencement of the legislation to an unspecified date are set out in the bill\u2019s explanatory note. As the Regulations Review Committee commented in an earlier Parliament, any use of the power to defer the commencement of a bill\u2019s provision, other than for reasons given in the explanatory note, is very likely to attract criticism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI note that until 1999 the commencement of a bill was invariably dealt with in the first clause, along with the title. But that is not so in the case of this bill. Here we find the title in clause 1, and the commencement date in clause 2, which reflects the requirement that the commencement provision must now be in a distinct clause devoted solely to that matter. I see that the Minister in charge of the bill, Rick Barker, is watching me in a rapt way and doubtless learning much that he has never known of before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo that is the second clause of the bill. That clause forms, along with the title clause, a bill\u2019s preliminary clause, which precedes the first distinct part of the bill\u2014if the bill is drafted in parts. There may, of course, be different provisions in the bill that come into force at different times. As the Minister will know, this must be indicated in the commencement clause, with cross-references to those other clauses where the precise commencement details are set out. I need to refer in that regard only to Standing Order 257(2). That said, I think National is pleased that in this particular case the Act comes into force on the nominated date in clause 2. Certainly, we do not have any misgivings about that planned course of action. So I commend those who, with care, have drafted clause 2 in the neat and precise way they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022c226b2fa887d46948307de304347a88e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c226b2fa887d46948307de304347a88e\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to take a call on Part 1 of the Judicial Retirement Age Bill. My colleagues have already commented that only two clauses are provided in Part 1: one is the commencement clause and the other is the purpose clause. Just to reiterate the purpose, I say that the bill is a fairly straightforward bill to increase the statutory retiring age of judges, associate judges of the High Court, coroners, and community magistrates, from 68 years of age to 70 years of age. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI would like to mention in this part of the call perhaps not what Part 1 provides for, but what it does not provide for\u2014that is, justices of the peace. There is no mention in the Judicial Retirement Age Bill of the Justices of the Peace Act. There is absolute silence as to that Act, and there is no mention of the retirement age of justices of the peace. Justices of the Peace are appointed as justices. They hold judicial office and, at the moment, the retirement age for JPs is 72 years of age. So that situation is incongruous with the proposed retirement age of 70 years in the Judicial Retirement Age Bill. We are aware, of course, that the Justices of the Peace Amendment Bill is currently before a select committee. I just remind the Committee that we need to ensure that the retirement age of JPs is consistent with the proposed retirement age of 70 years in the Judicial Retirement Age Bill. If we do not, we could have the incongruous situation of one class of judicial officer having a completely different compulsory retirement age from another class. JPs would retire at 72 and judges would retire at 70.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EPerhaps in this vein I will refer to the comments of my colleague Dr Worth in relation to the commencement date of this bill. It may be conceivable that the commencement date of this Act could occur prior to any amendment to the Justices of the Peace Act. So there may be an interval of time\u2014assuming that the justices of the peace legislation will make those age limits consistent\u2014when we have inconsistencies and differences in retirement age. It seems that it is certainly preferable to have the retirement age of both justices of the peace and judges\u2014indeed, of judicial officers\u2014consistent and at 70 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIn earlier speeches I referred to the arbitrary nature of age\u2014whether it was the arbitrary nature of a young age-limit, as in the age-limits for holding a firearm or purchasing a beer, or whether it was the age-limit at the other end of the scale, that of a compulsory age-limit. It is quite interesting to look at the age of our current judges, and if we look at the ones aged between 65 and 68, we see that 11 of them are currently sitting in New Zealand. Nine of them are District Court judges and two are High Court judges. To extend that retirement age would certainly help to retain that intellectual capital. In my speech on the second reading, I think I said that 68 years did not appear to be a particularly old age\u2014neither does 70, for that matter\u2014but the nearer one approaches that age, the younger the age seems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI would like to take a call on Part 2 later on. National supports the bill. It is straightforward and merely increases the retirement age of judges and other justices to 70 years of age, which is consistent with many other jurisdictions such as those of the United Kingdom, Australia, and Ireland. It is an arbitrary age-limit. It is not an indication of a judge\u2019s competence, or otherwise. It is merely a mandatory retirement age. It is important to have a mandatory retirement age for judicial officers for the security of tenure and also, as has previously been mentioned by the Minister, for judicial independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002279c96599067b48eea81e6ea29f48dc8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279c96599067b48eea81e6ea29f48dc8e\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I feel compelled to take the opportunity to speak on this Judicial Retirement Age Bill. As previous speakers have said, the National Party is supporting the bill. We are supporting it for a number of very good legal reasons and for reasons that are important to this Parliament and the country. But one of the things that is most important for this country, which we need to recognise today in the House, is that we need to keep institutional knowledge in areas such as the judiciary or within any other capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOne of the sad things that has happened too often in this country is that people have been retired early and we have lost a whole lot of experience. The judiciary is no different from any other group in that regard. Those people are well skilled, they are well versed, and they have huge knowledge, but then often as they are reaching the stage when they can make a very good contribution to our society\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf3cc4a0f6fe43358d09730594e1093f\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Like MPs!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233d7d69b010d47e7a12521b98dc096ab\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I will come to that in a minute\u2014we suddenly say to them that it is time they sat down and retired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI am pleased to say that the National Party values institutional knowledge. We respect it and we expect it of our members\u2014although the same could not be said to apply to the Labour Party. It does not develop institutional knowledge. In fact, one of the things Helen Clark has said is that she is expecting early retirement. I think she is now looking to have people come into Parliament at the Young Labour stage and retire before they get out of Young Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2cd268900e54493a5ce3c98a136b7d7\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Like Darren Hughes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281cb6e45c68e4dba99c7c6271c88fa10\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Darren is a classic example. It is important that we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe55c765457494db1b1e2f04271d3ba\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Like Brian Neeson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac883d4cb5c4a1cafa6bf2aeaa3e936\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There is another example of a guy who made a great contribution, and who stood aside for somebody who is now leading the National Party. We are pleased because that man will be the next Prime Minister. What is wrong with that? That is making way for people, and it is a good decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EToday this bill is a very good decision. The institution of our judiciary is important. It is important that we retain the experience and the knowledge that these people have. I am pleased to make a contribution to support the bill, and to pay my respects to the judiciary and to the many people who serve our country in that capacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 87 in the name of the Hon Rick Barker to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b561af310fd4c8180ae0db4cd690e33\u0022\u003EPart 2  Retirement age increased\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00226171ecd8cdc840e6a72f47737b2a1d62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226171ecd8cdc840e6a72f47737b2a1d62\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I have just a couple of points to make about Part 2. The first is to address a question that the Law Society raised in a letter it sent to the Justice and Electoral Committee. The letter said there was quite a good argument for the retirement age to go back to 72\u2014indeed, some people would say it should go up to 75. That is, perhaps, a question for the future, but in the meantime I think that the move to 70 is about right, and for the reasons I have already said\u2014it is basically in line with what happens in other jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAdmittedly, however, many fine people have retired from our bench, then gone on to serve in other courts for quite a number of years. I refer, for example, to the former President of the Court of Appeal, Sir Robin Cooke, as he then was. He retired as President of the Court of Appeal in 1996 and, uniquely for a New Zealander, he was appointed to the House of Lords, where he sat dealing with English appeals. He also sat on the Privy Council dealing with New Zealand appeals. He did that for another 5 or 6 years. So he continued to make a huge contribution there. He also continued to sit, even after he retired from the House of Lords, on the Court of Appeal of Samoa and a number of the other courts around the Pacific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EA more recent example is that of Sir Kenneth Keith, who, having served with distinction on the Court of Appeal and on the new Supreme Court, retired from the Supreme Court last year after his appointment as a judge of the International Court of Justice. He retired from the Supreme Court at the age of 68, and he will be able to sit on the International Court of Justice until the age of 78. The points made by the Law Society are not without merit, and I think the question will be revisited sometime in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI have only one question of the Minister, which may entice him to get to his feet, and that concerns Subpart 5, which deals with amendments to the Coroners Act 1988. I am not quite sure\u2014and I would be grateful if the Minister could elucidate\u2014why exactly it is necessary to refer to the 1988 legislation when, of course, Subpart 6 refers to the Coroners Act 2006. As the Minister well knows, that legislation went through this House last year. If my memory serves me correctly, the Government has already appointed a new chief coroner, who is a former District Court judge from Christchurch, and is in the process of appointing the 14 or 15 coroners who will serve full-time, as is anticipated by the new regime. So perhaps the Minister could tell me why it is necessary to amend legislation that I know has not been repealed. I know there are some transitional provisions, but it would seem to be a bit of a waste of time, because the new regime will be in place very soon indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe final point I make, and it is in the nature of a suggestion to the Minister for Courts, is that when one looks at the various legislation we are amending, like the District Courts Act 1947 and the Judicature Act 1908, one can see that those Acts are long overdue for comprehensive reform. I suggest to the Government that there would be much to commend it if we had a comprehensive Courts Act. For example, when one reads through the Judicature Act 1908, one sees that in the space of 99 years it has been amended on a huge number of occasions, and at least half of the sections that were originally in that Act have been repealed. When one looks at the various court statutes in this way, one sees that a very strong case can be made for a consolidated Courts Act. I suggest to the Minister that 2008, the 100th anniversary of the passage of the Judicature Act 1908, would be a very good time to do that. It should not be too much work; it would be a question of consolidating the various statutes. [Interruption] It is a complicated matter, but I believe that the Minister should take it on board, because it would be a very good piece of work, and I could assure him that the Justice and Electoral Committee, with its usual sedulous approach to the dispatch of business, would deal with it very carefully. But I would be very interested to know why we are amending legislation that is very soon to be totally repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002252eb6b250ccf40559434673786227279\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252eb6b250ccf40559434673786227279\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I will reply just briefly. The reason we are amending the legislation is that the Coroners Act 1988 expires on 30 June 2007, and this legislation could well come into force before that legislation expires. It will be replaced by the Coroners Act 2006, which will come into effect on 1 July. It is necessary to mention both pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00221bad0a9d90a8452a807e4ca8f6f17f02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bad0a9d90a8452a807e4ca8f6f17f02\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the speedy passage of the Judicial Retirement Age Bill. I would like to add to the comments made by the previous speaker, Chris Finlayson, by saying that in looking at the division of this bill into parts, there certainly is a case for the District Courts Act and the Judicature Act to be brought into closer alignment. It would be a very fitting end, I believe, to the career of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rick Barker, if he were to commence upon such a task as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is not a lot of substance in Part 2. The only point of substance is to increase the retirement age of judges in the way that is being described. But I would also like to pick up on a comment made earlier that it is appropriate to reflect on the contribution that the judges, at all levels of the system, make to the legal system. It is a man-made system; it suffers, of course, from imperfections. But one of its great strengths is the calibre and the intellectual capability of the judges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is often said that being a judge is a difficult task\u2014not so difficult, perhaps, in terms of its intellectual dimension but in terms of the daily grind. The Minister will be very much aware of pressures emanating from the Auckland High Court district in connection with massive delays in the criminal jurisdiction, which have been substantially brought about by the refusal of the Government to transfer a substantial body of work to the lower court. I am speaking about the delays in bringing drug dealers to trial in respect of methamphetamine activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThis is an issue that has been raised with the Minister in the chair on a number of occasions. It is very much a hot issue amongst the judges in Auckland, and it has a significant consequence, in the context of this Judicial Retirement Age Bill. The delays are of such a magnitude that there may be some cases that will see judicial lives flourish until the end of the extended term of 70 years of age without a number of these cases being resolved. I commend the Minister that he look at that particular issue without further delay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the course of the debate on this bill I have made three essential points. Those three points have been these. First, there is a clear case for extension of the retirement age. That could be done in a number of ways. It could be done by fixing an age, or it could be done by creating a term of years for judges to serve. In the particular instance here the Government has followed a traditional path in extending the retirement age to 70. It could have been 72. As I commented earlier, we have made provision in our Supreme Court for acting judges to serve up to the age of 75. So there is no necessary magic in what the age might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second point, which I think is worth noting, is that judges are being given tenure akin to the tenure that is given to people like professors at universities. Associated with that there must always be the question that arises when a judge starts to flag, when perhaps his or her faculties begin to fail. In 2004 Parliament passed legislation that I think is particularly relevant and significant in that regard, and that was the Judicial Conduct Commissioner and Judicial Conduct Panel Act 2004. It was the case that a judge could behave in an errant fashion for many years and not be held accountable. It was seen as a hugely Draconian step for a judge to be removed for misconduct. In the history of New Zealand we came close to doing that only once, and it concerned the conduct of Mr Justice Edwards in about 1920. But now we have in place this legislation that deals with judicial conduct and sets up a Judicial Conduct Commissioner and Judicial Conduct Panel Act. So those who are aggrieved, who appear as litigants in the courts or as accused persons, have a mechanism, working parallel with this legislation\u2014the Judicial Retirement Age Bill\u2014to make complaints through the system if that is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe third and final thing I would like to say is that I have expressed concern in the past that this legislation may be a pathway that excites some judges to look again at the prospect of being part-time judges. I hope that the Minister and the Attorney-General will set their hearts firmly against that course, because judging is a full-time occupation. It is not to be carried out in association with other trades and hobbies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022b80c021406d34cfd9b160ef4d06a7d48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b80c021406d34cfd9b160ef4d06a7d48\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E In taking a call on Part 2, which has been more than adequately described by my colleagues, I point out that it increases the retirement age of the various District Court judges, Employment Court judges, High Court judges, Supreme Court judges, M\u0101ori Land Court judges, and coroners. The explanatory note is pretty helpful in explaining the rationale and the positive benefits of increasing the age of retirement of judges from 68 to 70. I shall quote from it for the record, because I think it is important: \u201CThe current retirement age of 68 years causes a loss of valuable knowledge and experience to the judiciary. The current age also presents a barrier to attracting senior practitioners or lawyers who have distinguished themselves in other fields \u2026 to judicial office. Experienced practitioners and academics can bring significant depth to the bench. \u2026 Raising the judicial retirement age will enable the retention of our most experienced and capable Judges and encourage recruitment of senior practitioners.\u201D I think that intellectual capital\u2014that experience\u2014has already been well mentioned by my colleague Mr Carter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EDr Worth mentioned briefly that there is a concern and an issue at the moment in relation to the delay in court hearings. It is hoped that this legislation might go some way to perhaps making those court delays a little less. Some of the figures\u2014and, yes, I will be selective about the figures to illustrate the point\u2014certainly paint a somewhat horrific picture. I appreciate that not all the delays are due to the lack of availability of a judge, but it is certainly hoped that if we increase the ages of judges, more may be available and the waiting times might be reduced. It is well known that justice delayed is certainly justice denied. As lawmakers it is important for us to legislate law that provides, as far as possible, that our citizens have adequate, speedy, efficient access to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThere is a case in the District Court in Auckland that has been waiting 1,179 days for a hearing date. That is unacceptable. As I said, it is not necessarily because of the unavailability of judges\u2014it might be for a lot of reasons\u2014but waiting 1,179 days for any case to come to a hearing is not an acceptable state of affairs. I will give two other indications. There is a case in the Christchurch District Court that has been waiting for a jury trial hearing for 742 days. Another case, in the Manukau District Court, has been waiting for 705 days. I think that in anyone\u2019s language, 2 years to obtain a hearing date for a District Court trial is not speedy, efficient access to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E In relation even to civil cases there are also delays in many of the courts. For example, in the Auckland High Court the median waiting time for a High Court civil case to be heard is 264 days. That is nearly a year, and a lot can happen in that year. Whilst people are waiting for their legal problems to be resolved, they are caused a lot of uncertainty, angst, and worry. To have to wait 264 days for a civil High Court hearing in the Auckland High Court is certainly a worry, and not good enough. By comparison, in the capital the median waiting time for a High Court civil hearing is 231 days, which is slightly better than in Auckland but certainly nothing to write home about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe can compare District Court jury waiting times\u2014and, again, it is important that criminal matters are dealt with as soon as possible. There are people like the accused, defendants who have been accused of a crime, who are pleading their innocence and wanting the matter resolved as quickly as possible. I will just mention some of the waiting times for District Court jury trials, and I will mention only those that have run over 300 days. That is the median waiting time, but of course 300 days is nearly 1 year. The Auckland District Court has a median waiting time for District Court trials of 321 days, whereas in the Blenheim District Court\u2014the worst in the country\u2014it is actually 372 days. I will mention one other figure, which is the High Court jury waiting time. In Napier, for example, the median waiting time is 346 days. Again, that is approximately 1 year and far too long for anybody to have access to justice, or for the system to be called access to justice\u2014efficient and speedy access to justice. We certainly hope that by increasing the retirement age of judges to 70 there may be more intellectual capital available, and we may be able to utilise the skill and experience of our judicial bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f61dd64126bd420ead64087d24d277fd\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000323\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the District Courts Amendment Bill (No 3), the Employment Relations Amendment Bill (No 2), the Judicature Amendment Bill (No 2), Te Ture Whenua Maori Amendment Bill (No 2) / M\u0101ori Land Amendment Bill (No 2), the Coroners Act 1988 Amendment Bill, and the Coroners Act 2006 Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 88.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000324\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000325\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b000a43887f422ea5cf01aa070f8ec3\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1ff17848f8a44c781fc362ac66c066e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022f16708e00d82464a901e3cf358c8d131\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f16708e00d82464a901e3cf358c8d131\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. The purpose of this bill is to strengthen New Zealand\u2019s border security measures and to provide for more effective and integrated border management, in recognition of the fact that New Zealand\u2019s trade and travel landscape is continuing to change, and that we must move to keep pace with that. Increasing threats to our communities through terrorism, international organised crime, drugs, identity fraud, and other issues mean that we need strong, effective legislation to integrate our border management in order to deal with these risks at the front line. This bill helps us to achieve that. This important legislation is also carefully drafted in order to recognise both the Government\u2019s and the community\u2019s interest in effective border management, and the rights of people to travel and conduct legitimate trade across our border.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EA key principle of the bill is to reinforce the Government\u2019s commitment to protecting our communities and our country from threats, such as drugs and transnational crime. The Customs Service is the first point of contact at the border for people, goods, and craft, so the service needs to have the clear legislative ability to refer people and goods that are of interest to other agencies such as the police and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. Other key principles are to address current limitations and border powers, to provide more effective integration and stronger links between agencies working at the border, and to ensure that people or goods that pose a threat do not slip through the gaps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThis bill also consolidates border security - related amendments made in 2004 to the 1996 Customs and Excise Act through the Border Security Bill, which was designed to counter continuing and increasing border-related threats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the work of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and the committee clerks and officials, in their consideration of the bill, and thank them for their efforts to get this bill back to the House. It should be noted that the committee has unanimously agreed to a series of amendments to the bill. They include two substantive changes relating to clauses 8 and 9A, plus a handful of minor amendments. The widespread support of select committee members is a positive recognition of the service conducted by the New Zealand Customs Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn relation to the changes to clause 8, it is recommended that an amendment be made so that once the Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade has made a determination that goods are kept\u2014all goods\u2014notice of that determination should be given to relevant parties in writing. Corresponding changes are also recommended to the current section 285 of the Customs and Excise Act, to set out the rules as to when a notice is deemed to have been received. In this regard the select committee also recommends an amendment to clause 19 to insert new section 209(4A), which provides a defence if the exporter can prove that through no fault of his or her own, the notice was not received. These amendments were proposed by the New Zealand Law Society and reflect its submission that the exporter should have notice of the ban before an offence is considered to have been committed. The determination is still the legally active mechanism to ban the export of the goods, but the offence provision is contingent on notification, not on the determination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn relation to changes to clause 9A, the select committee recommended that section 79 of the Act be amended to change the date of inflation indexation for alcohol to 1 July in any year, and for tobacco to 1 January in any year. The current date for the indexation of inflation on alcohol is 1 June, and the date for the indexation of inflation on tobacco is 1 December. This presents issues for both sectors. Firstly, the fact that the Alcohol Advisory Council will increase its levy annually on 1 July means that alcohol retailers must make two adjustments in consecutive months. The proposed amendments will mean that the two adjustments will occur on the same date and that will certainly lead to an administrative improvement for the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe second reason supporting the change is that because of time constraints, officials have to seek a waiver of the 28-day rule, which is the required public notice period for any adjustments to be made. These changes will enable officials to meet the 28-day rule, while also reducing compliance costs for alcohol retailers by avoiding duplication of process and enabling better forward planning by the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe select committee also unanimously recommended some minor drafting improvements to clauses 4, 6, and 19 of the bill. The change to clause 4 corrects a drafting error made in 2002 relating to the definition of New Zealand\u2019s nautical mile limit. The change to clause 6 involves relocating a subclause of the bill relating to the definition of electronic communication devices, to provide consistency with other provisions. The change to clause 19 results from recommended changes to clause 8, in that it provides for a penalty to be imposed on exporters if they fail to notify the Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade that goods are, or may be, catch-all goods. The Government supports these amendments and thanks the select committee for its efforts in bringing these matters back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EA large number of individuals, agencies, and Government departments have been consulted during the development of this bill. I acknowledge all of those who have made submissions and provided their input. I thank them for their contributions. I also note that the bill complies with the rights and freedoms contained in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 and the Human Rights Act 1993, as well as with relevant international standards and obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2) is important legislation that supports a whole-of-Government approach to better enable border management, and it should proceed. The bill affirms this Government\u2019s commitment to a vibrant economy, to strong and safe communities, and to the protection of our national identity and way of life. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00227c0a9665f2084b599c4bc52d214f9be7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c0a9665f2084b599c4bc52d214f9be7\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very good call from Nanaia Mahuta. I rise on behalf of the National Party in support of the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2). Can I say at the outset that a bill like this makes the role of an Opposition spokesman quite difficult, in the sense that we are supporting it and of course the Opposition\u2019s role is to oppose, expose, and then propose. The Queen\u2019s honourable Opposition will endeavour to do that in the course of this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe legislation was referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on 1 August last year. It was a very good select committee, with very good National members on it: my good friend Tim Groser sitting next to me, Dr Wayne Mapp, John Hayes, and, of course, the Hon Murray McCully. So I know the work of that select committee would have been robust\u2014I can say that with a high degree of certainty. Can I say also that this is good legislation because it harmonises and modernises customs control at our borders with that of our international friends and neighbours around the world. It brings it into line with issues exposed after the 9/11 terrorism attack and the growing problem of terrorism around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is very hard to read through a bill like this and find the wrongdoings, as it were, of a socialist Government. I thank the officials for their obvious guidance and the work they did in helping the Minister to prepare her speech so that we had an accurate ministerial statement, and in helping the select committee with their advice. But there are some socialist misdoings in it\u2014let me tell members\u2014and I have to expose them. First of all, the poor old hard-working railway worker who is living in Taumarunui, the seat of the Minister of Justice\u2014the old engine driver who has retired there and is trying to enjoy in his twilight years a quiet durry on the side, while sitting in front of the old railway station\u2014is to have his taxes increased incrementally on that durry every June, I understand, without any reference back to Parliament. They will be consumer price indexed\u2014up they will go, and never mind whether there is justification. It will be the same if he decides to go down to the RSA for a wee dram. The taxes will automatically rise on that at a set time every year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI agree with the fact that the Government has harmonised them; there was an issue about that, which needed to be addressed, in that the excise tax went up at a different time from the consumer price index in terms of inflation. So that is sensible. I understand that that is probably due to some of the good work of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and I congratulate it on that. But the question still remains of why a Government with a $12 billion surplus\u2014or some such figure\u2014needs to have another crack at that poor old former railway engine driver who is living in Taumarunui, by banging another automatic tax increase on to him for his wee dram down at the RSA and for his little smoke while he sits on his seat in front of the railway station. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is typical of socialist Governments that they always attack those who support them. What this Government does not and cannot understand is that if we look at the voting records from polling booths in Taumarunui, which used to be in the Taranaki - King Country electorate, we see that over the years those voters overwhelmingly have voted Labour. Let us remember that this seat is described as a true-blue, hard-core National seat, but if we look at the voting records from Taumarunui polling booths we will find that overwhelmingly the voters have voted Labour. There have been only two exceptions\u2014when the town was in the Taranaki - King Country electorate, and yours truly was the local member. On those occasions voters voted for the other side; they voted for the member for Taranaki - King Country, in three booths out of five. I welcome the fact that the poor folk of Taumarunui were inflicted with Mr Mark Burton, the Minister of Justice, as their member, because here he is sticking it to them again with more taxes that are totally unnecessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EOn a more serious note, the fact that the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill does harmonise with the international community, as I said, is a good thing. But here is the other issue\u2014members should listen up. This is the proposed part. Here is the other area where socialist Governments always fail and always miss opportunities when they are given to them. Here was a golden opportunity to increase the synergy between the Customs Service and those doing border control biosecurity, Biosecurity New Zealand. Here was a massive opportunity, which is obvious to anyone who has looked at the issue, for an increase in cross-pollination and cooperation between those two organisations that work at our border. It would give a whole of border protection, if you like. Here was an opportunity, and the socialists overlooked it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe Government has been offered opportunities on many occasions, I have been informed, to import sophisticated X-ray machinery that would not only detect the increasing amount of drugs that are flowing across our borders\u2014and overwhelming that is the case; I have press releases as recent as today that would back that up, and the technology exists\u2014but also help to detect biosecurity incursions, of which we have had 229 in the last 5 years. Overwhelmingly, that could have happened. But what does this Government do? It says: \u201CNo, no, we don\u2019t want to look at that. Those are two separate Government departments and they have to stay separate.\u201D There are people involved in those departments who obviously support this Government. Government Ministers and their officials have not taken this opportunity to realise that synergy, and that is a tragedy, because there was a huge opportunity there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I say to the officials that they should look at this legislation next time it comes up for amendment\u2014which it will, because the 1996 Act has already been amended, and this is another amending bill, so I imagine that it is fast-moving legislation, as it were, because of technology. Next time the officials have an opportunity to look at this legislation\u2014it certainly will not be under this Government; it will be under a National Government\u2014they should look very closely at, in particular, some of the sophisticated American equipment that has been designed post-9/11 to detect biosecurity and customs risk items, and bring the two together at our borders. We have here a lost opportunity. Section 175C, \u201CSeizure and detention of goods suspected to be certain risk goods or evidence of commission of certain offences\u201D, substituted by clause 15, is where that provision could have been inserted. I notice that there is a reference to risks with biosecurity goods. The Government has gone part-way; it could have gone a lot further. The question is why it did not take that opportunity. It is the failing of every socialist Government around the world, and we have no exception here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I say in closing that, overwhelmingly, the National Party supports the direction this bill takes. Overwhelmingly, we congratulate those on the select committee on bringing back the bill in a form we can support through the House. The officials have done a very good job. Why does the Government have to, whenever it can, bang in an extra tax even when it is not needed? Why does it not always maximise the opportunities presented to it when it has the chance to do so? That is the problem with socialist Governments. That is the reason why this Government has expired. That is the reason why there will be a change of Government at the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u00224b976c66df944fcf98d96ca103684e6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b976c66df944fcf98d96ca103684e6b\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is sad that the previous speaker, Shane Ardern, was not on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, because he has some misunderstandings about the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2). But I thank him for his support for the bill, and I thank the Opposition members of the committee, who played a very good part in progressing it. I point out to Shane Ardern that there is no new tax\u2014what was changed was the date around a tax. I point that out as a matter of clarification. It would help if the member opposite had read a little more carefully and engaged his eyes before he spoke about something that was not in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI thank in general those who are involved in the New Zealand Customs Service. I thank the Minister of Customs, Nanaia Mahuta, and the chief executive officer and staff of the Customs Service for the tremendous work they have been doing, apart from this bill, in apprehending all sorts of irregularities in relation to customs. We have seen some tremendous work around drugs and around people trying to get illegal material into this country\u2014everything from false exam qualifications to drugs and to weapons. Recently, we heard that stamps are coming into New Zealand. So I thank the Customs Service for the tremendous work it does\u2014it often goes unnoticed and unheralded. The Minister, who is a very good Minister, understands that she has a very good ministry working for her. As the member has pointed out, this bill is not about party politics; this is about \u201CNew Zealand Ltd\u201D, and this is about keeping our borders secure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI will read the introduction to our select committee report to remind people what the bill is about: \u201CThe purpose of the bill is to strengthen New Zealand\u2019s border security by clarifying Customs\u2019 border management role and improving the Customs Service\u2019s ability to work cooperatively with other agencies at the border.\u201D I point out to Mr Ardern the last part of that sentence, which relates to working with other agencies at the border. \u201CThe bill amends the Customs and Excise Act 1996 \u2026 to ensure that individuals and items arriving or departing New Zealand are unable to slip through border processes without proper scrutiny. A particular area we examined in our consideration of the bill was that of controls over prohibited exports on the New Zealand Strategic Goods List.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThe Minister has pointed out the changes to clause 8 that the committee recommended. The changes, as has been pointed out, are largely technical, and I thank the Law Society for its recommendations. The amendments are designed to make the bill more workable and the law more enforceable. There are amendments around dates relating to inconsistencies with other legislation, and those amendments will ensure that the law is able to be enforced. One of the interesting things was the definition of \u201CNew Zealand\u201D\u2014as has been pointed out by the Minister\u2014and the definition of nautical miles and how the Customs Service can enforce the patrol of New Zealand borders. So there was some discussion about definitions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAs has also been mentioned, we checked the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act as there were some issues about detaining. The members of the committee were asking whether, in some cases, the Customs Service had asked for sufficient time for its officials to respond to someone who had been detained, and they asked whether the officials were able to detain that person long enough to travel to the place where the person was detained. Officials assured us that the amount of time provided for in the bill was sufficient, and I think that the committee was quite vigilant in looking through those particular areas. Generally, the committee was in agreement, and I thank the members of the committee for their cooperation on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThe bill is not about socialism and it is not about party politics; it is about our country and it is about New Zealand\u2014and I think that Mr Ardern very well knows that. Once again, I thank all the committee members, the staff who assisted us, and those who made submissions. We look forward to the further progress of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022 data-id=\u002256d68e350f974e0d8b6e09d1d4619bca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256d68e350f974e0d8b6e09d1d4619bca\u0022\u003ETIM GROSER (National):\u003C/span\u003E As members already know, National supports the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2), which basically does two or three different things. One is highly technical and, I suppose, not very large in the scheme of things, but the other is quite fundamental. When I was having lunch with somebody today and he asked me what I was doing in the House, I said that I was to speak on the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2), and he asked what on earth I would talk about in that context. I said that I would talk about two of the biggest issues facing this country: global terrorism and the issue of weapons of mass destruction, because those issues are actually the bigger purpose of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EOn the technical issue of the adjustment, I feel even more passionately than Mr Ardern does about the retired railway worker in Taumarunui having his non-inflationary dram. But having participated in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, let me assure Mr Ardern that if we are to make an inflation adjustment, that is an issue for retailers. It is a compliance cost issue, and I think that the committee members have worked quite productively to find a fair and reasonable way of doing the adjustment in a way that minimises the compliance cost for the retailer. I would wish only that the Labour Government would show the same degree of common sense when it comes to rather more important compliance issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EBefore getting on to the bigger purpose of this bill, I will just say in public what I have said privately many times\u2014that is, a huge thankyou to the women and the men who work in, and over the years have worked for, our Customs Service. I have had a lot to do with them professionally, usually on the policy side of the interface with trade issues. I have found officials\u2019 advice on deeply technical administrative issues, such as rules of origin and customs classification issues, hugely helpful, and just vital to a \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D approach on that. I acknowledge the sterling work, in my opinion, that those people do across a broad set of issues and not just at the border, or at the coalface, as it were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EWhen we consider what this bill tries to do, which is to give customs officials the tools to do that job properly at the coalface, we have to reflect on the fact that they have quite a difficult job. They measure their success largely by how little we hear of them. Sometimes people notice things only in their absence, and it is the number of things that go wrong at the border that brings the Customs Service\u2019s work to people\u2019s attention. It is a difficult environment to work in, what with the number of narcotic drugs that escape the officials\u2019 best efforts. So I think that it is very important for the legislator to give those people the tools that they need. By and large, I think that this bill does that. The one area that National is concerned about in terms of border management issues is, of course, biosecurity, where we do not think that the Government has given the officials the tools to do a job of absolutely crucial significance. But at least this bill, in dealing with other areas of border security enforcement, moves absolutely in the right direction. I want to commend the Customs Service for its work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EThe issue of terrorism is right at the top of the Customs Service\u2019s responsibilities\u2014and it is an awesome responsibility\u2014which it discharges on our behalf and on behalf of every New Zealander. We have learnt, with the spread of global terrorism, that a group of deeply dangerous people who rail against globalisation because they have a warped vision\u2014we are more familiar with that vision from other contexts, too\u2014of trying to return us to some myth of a golden past actually utilise the tools of globalisation in an extremely efficient way. It is a rich and troubling contradiction. We are involved in the struggle against the global menace of terrorism, which knows no frontiers. Personally, I prefer to use the words \u201Cstruggle against terrorism\u201D; I do not like the term \u201Cwar\u201D, partly because I think that it misses the central point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EI would put the central point as being this. Terrorism has been committed by every major religion that I can think of. We have had Sikh terrorists; I could give examples of them off the top of my head. We have had Hindu terrorists. We have had Jewish terrorists. And, of course, we have had many forms of different Christian terrorists, including some in recent times. I do not think that any of the people who belong to those major religions would want their entire religion to be categorised by the deranged behaviour of fanatics who, as they maim, torture, kill, and destroy, consider that they are doing so in the name of their interpretation of their belief system. I say that because I think, with respect to the modern problem of terrorism, it is a statement of fact that it is overwhelmingly an Islamic terrorist problem. It is committed by a certain warped version of a tiny proportion of some 2 billion Muslims around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ENow, when terrorism is practised against, as it sometime is, societies such as ours predominantly\u2014not solely but predominantly Western societies\u2014I defend our right to respond with lethal force. This bill, in part, is about giving the State\u2014a small State, but we are in control of events here\u2014the power to respond with lethal force and with the full coercive powers of the State, and I think that is appropriate. But I have always held the view that finally, although we have to do what we have to do in order to try to minimise the threat of Islamic terrorism, fundamentally the only long-term solution will come from Muslims and predominantly Muslim countries themselves. I do think that people need to reflect carefully on that reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003EHaving lived in a Muslim country for a number of years I have talked about this issue with probably hundreds, I would think, of Muslims. All the people I have talked to\u2014and this would be the experience, I am sure, of anyone else who has lived in a Muslim country\u2014 realise, of course, that the ultimate threat is directed against them. They hate those people and they are deeply frightened, as any rational person should be, by where the next bomb is going to go off in Jakarta. They are deeply frightened by that prospect, of course. But they are Muslims, and when people insult anyone\u2019s core set of beliefs and values, which is what the debate in Western countries on terrorism sometimes veers into, that person naturally has difficulty in cooperating with them. That is just human nature. So I think we have to understand, basically, that we are going to depend finally, more than anything else, on predominantly Muslim people themselves, and their Governments and security forces, to get on top of the problem. Although I, like many other people, have become enormously frustrated at the indecisiveness of the Indonesian authorities\u2014they are not the only people involved, of course\u2014in their approaches to dealing with terrorism on occasions, I think we have to recognise that we are in a joint struggle with them against a common foe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f670c71-9be5-4a7e-a197-0590da759280\u0022\u003ESo this bill is partly about the interdiction of terrorism. It is also partly about the interdiction of prohibited exports that could be used for weapons of mass destruction. It does not take a great deal of imagination to see that finally, in some ghastly sense, those two issues could be linked. I think we have a very flexible system in place that gives the Government better tools to deal with those issues. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1e5fe9f1df74c5d8af8d5b8f92ef1ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1e5fe9f1df74c5d8af8d5b8f92ef1ec\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Deputy Speaker, kia ora t\u0101tou te Whare. I will start by referring to the report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on this bill, and in particular to the bit where it recommends that the word \u201Creasonable\u201D be inserted before the words \u201Ccause to suspect.\u201D \u201CReasonable\u201D is a word I have come across a lot in my many court cases over the years\u2014reasonable use of force, reasonable expectation, what a reasonable person would do, reasonable grounds to believe; the list goes on and on. So I have had a decent look at the word \u201Creasonable\u201D over the years. I was keen to see how the word was used in terms of border security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI note also that the bill gets right into defining what a \u201Cdangerous item\u201D is, such as ammunition, a firearm, an offensive weapon, an explosive device, and an injurious substance or device. The last item also adds the phrase, \u201Cof any kind whatsoever\u201D. That includes, of course, cigarettes and tobacco, and a whole host of other things not listed in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI note that when it comes to defining something as subjective as the word \u201Creasonable\u201D, the gates are equally wide open. Indeed, on at least 16 different occasions, the test of reasonableness is proposed as the basis of judgment in this bill\u2014such as: reasonable force may be used to detain someone, officers may seize anything they have reasonable cause to suspect may be evidence, or officers may detain a person if they have reasonable grounds to believe that the person poses a threat. Given that the bill does not define \u201Creasonable\u201D, I looked up the word and found a whole host of different definitions. I am hugely concerned that if the purpose of this bill is to provide more effective border management, then the definitions and instructions need to be clear and definite, and not left to the interpretation of individual staff and different agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen this bill came before the House last year, I spoke about how M\u0101ori understood the issue of managing our borders to preserve and protect our world, and about the notion of kaitiakitanga\u2014the preservation of our natural environment. I said it was our responsibility, as M\u0101ori and as a nation, to maintain a clean, safe, and healthy environment for ourselves and for future generations by promoting the protection, restoration, and enhancement of mauri within our natural world. So I cannot stress enough the importance of protecting our lands and our people from infectious diseases and biological or chemical threats. But that question of interpretation still remains. Who defines what is dangerous? Who determines what search criteria should be? What constitutes suspicious grounds? Those decisions can be very subjective, very prejudiced, and often racist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI would like the House to consider the role that racism plays in how we deal with immigrants. I will mention four New Zealand citizens who have complained of racial discrimination by Auckland airport customs staff. The first, African-born New Zealand citizen Boubacar Coulibaly, treasurer of the African Community of Auckland Region, has been questioned and searched three times by customs staff, despite having no criminal history. The second, Auckland area manager for Housing New Zealand, Margritt de Man, who has dark skin despite her European origins, has also been questioned four times and has had her luggage searched, despite having had no goods to declare. Jamaican-born Auckland lawyer Colin Henry complained to the Race Relations Office that he was deeply offended by being singled out for attention, while a crowd of mainly European passengers went past unquestioned. When he expressed his annoyance a police officer threatened to arrest him. Finally, to add insult to injury, South African - born former New Zealand Race Relations Conciliator, Gregory Fortuin, has himself been detained by customs officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAuckland airport customs staff confirm that ethnicity is a basis for profiling. Ethnic profiling, if it is not managed effectively and intelligently, is a major concern, because it becomes the basis of stereotyping and racial discrimination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ELast month in the UK a Home Office report exploring the decision making of immigration officers confirmed what most darkies have long known to be true\u2014that the practice of profiling on the basis of race, ethnicity, and religion is a fact. According to the report, British immigration officers say they base decisions on \u201Cintuition\u201D about people who \u201Clook the part\u201D. But who looks the part and who does not, as a result of society\u2019s prejudices? So it comes as no surprise whatsoever that way more blacks and Asians get stopped for questioning than white folks. Coloured South Africans get stopped 10 times more often than their white counterparts. Coloured Canadians get stopped nine times more often than their white countrymen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe report\u2019s authors say that this has nothing to do with racism, though. They say that their decisions are based on socio-economic factors. Excuse me for sounding flippant, but yeah, right! Where have we heard that one before? That is the line this Government used for cancelling the closing the gaps policy. It is the line the Yanks used for overzealous policing of black districts, and\u2014to no one\u2019s surprise\u2014the New Zealand Government also used that line in justifying using Tasers in Polynesian communities here. Socio-economic factors be damned; it is out and out bloody racism. We need to see it and condemn it for what it is, whether it is in London, New York, Paris, or Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIn his article in the Guardian in January 2007, entitled \u201CThe west persists in using race to decide who can cross its borders\u201D, Gary Younge wrote: \u201CSo long as there are nation states there will be borders and immigration laws to regulate them. The least we can do is drop the pretence that these laws are fair. They are not designed to discriminate between people, but against them.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party supports this bill at its second reading, because we support the need for tightening security and protecting our environment. But we take issue with assumptions of what qualifies as \u201Creasonable\u201D\u2014the adoption of racial profiling and border management practices here in Aotearoa; the behind-closed-doors decision-making processes regarding the bringing in of genetically modified organisms; the demand that we accept World Trade Organization decisions, even when they work against our best interests; and free-trade agreements made without proper reference to M\u0101ori Treaty interests. We too want to keep Aotearoa free from threats, but we also want a proper say in exactly what constitutes a threat. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u002207823fed1ec54b20b502d173bdc08ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207823fed1ec54b20b502d173bdc08ebb\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have been asked to take just a very short call on the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill (No 2). We do not have a member on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee; however, our caucus has looked very carefully at the provisions of the bill and the report by the select committee back to the House. I can say we are very happy with the bill as reported back and we will be supporting it through this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d4ffd31eab39492eb513bb08df5870e0\u0022\u003EUnsolicited Electronic Messages Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002279d19cd60e1140b7a651f79b9c1229dd\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259d1dc72a29d435695c256a50f524d85\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8dc71a7d6d64cebb4c5aea5fadb0efc\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259b92b0f24a14f7dae5929a0ef8cf8f8\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002277911d1b2f6949a5a5fef38f08041020\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022381f1793240641ca831f755d983ca1d8\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b28e2187a09c4466854092076555e07f\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002297ecb7eb48e447a9a175c3a28645b147\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000383\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000384\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229527299c834e4086a23032f0fe80e871\u0022\u003EDisabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ae39649b68b4b2c9a7a75d333b66d3c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8ce2a830be044afb2d40793da7a1da7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8ce2a830be044afb2d40793da7a1da7\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister for Building and Construction)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Disability Issues: I move, That the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200702222f1f353cfd37474385abf40703d32702000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.02 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"