"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222209c5b2deed495b947029fecbb72981\u0022\u003EThursday, 15 March 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022491615b067f6444e9de0112b284108f6\u0022\u003EThursday, 15 March 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e6fad206dec4389bf18a5369c83232e\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6ee609be3fb4bf0b6aeda2ca5ae35cd\u0022\u003EMongolia\u2014Chairman of the State Great Hural\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00229b90a8ccff624f518e81e591d83ecde4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b90a8ccff624f518e81e591d83ecde4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing members that Mr Nyamdorj Tsend, the Chairman of the State Great Hural, Mongolia, accompanied by the Deputy Speaker, is within the precincts of the Chamber. I am sure members would wish that he be welcomed and accorded a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EMr Nyamdorj Tsend, accompanied by the Hon Clem Simich, entered the Chamber and took a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0da355985d14064a3fd1eeb6a1b76ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0da355985d14064a3fd1eeb6a1b76ca\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure members would also wish to welcome the members of the Chairman\u2019s delegation who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7a87ba7773a4cadbdf7edc73f0f2a7c\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e7d9dfad715425db634288d19707eaf\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4bb815ec7274655bfbc825e54cd13c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4bb815ec7274655bfbc825e54cd13c4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House, priority will be given to the first readings of the Aviation Security Legislation Bill and the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill, and the remaining stages of the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill, the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2), the Criminal Procedure Bill, and the Justices of the Peace Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e15fc89af89c495686cb6a29bc517a58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e15fc89af89c495686cb6a29bc517a58\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Leader of the House for that indication of what work the House might busy itself with in the next short while. But noting that the Order Paper continues to be very, very thin and to have not a lot that is controversial, therefore indicating that a Government is actually governing, I wonder whether he might therefore accede to my request last week to indicate when the many members on our side of the House who have waited for so many years now, will be able to offer their contributions on the Conservation (Protection of Trout as a Non-commercial Species) Amendment Bill. Some of them have speeches in their drawer that go back 10 years. They will need some time to update those speeches to bring them into the modern age. Can we expect that this bill will see the light of day in the next couple of weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002284196c83b4d748ee9a4ecef5f77a909d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284196c83b4d748ee9a4ecef5f77a909d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I am confident that members opposite can keep those drawers at exactly the same desks for the next 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc3e0ff8033b4d18ba5f45cf5555c09a\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e07a5fa675045d9b959f38da73a49bb\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00221c19523446024a95b3c3f8082b20ac25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c19523446024a95b3c3f8082b20ac25\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the sitting hours of the House on Thursday, 5 April, to be from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. This is to ensure that all members are able to return home on the Thursday before Easter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265f9e7c86f384e62a84305172bff57ae\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c990cf57dc74c7aa0fb9f8ce50f34ff\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b8c0b8059a4408aa89590d0cf53176f\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2132dec5eab49ce98018f22b5e7e070\u0022\u003ECorrections, Minister\u2014Murder Victim\u2019s Family\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5265eea9b2b40f68afe07f6f6fdf480\u0022\u003E1. Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Did he apologise for the actions or failings of his Department of Corrections when he met privately with the family of murder victim Karl Kuchenbecker; if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022a904e700402f4e9890ab24dfa40be1e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a904e700402f4e9890ab24dfa40be1e1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E As I have already stated publicly, I have expressed my regrets to the Kuchenbecker family. However, as I realise this meeting pre-dated the report\u2019s release, I have now initiated contact with the family and extended an invitation to meet them at any time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f287273dbd74610ab38e74ed7b3e682\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain, then, why the Prime Minister told this House yesterday that the Minister and local member of Parliament had met with the family and said that they were very sorry for what had happened, when today we hear from Paul Kuchenbecker that he did not take what was said in the meeting with two Government Ministers as being an apology for the death of his son?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3f02743528349efbf376ffce9fe46c4\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: In checking with the transcript today, I see Paul Kuchenbecker stated: \u201CI took on board this as a personal apology from himself.\u201D I offered that apology in a personal setting, and I stand by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f1d02a64e3448a28f1186342810fbaa\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister has acknowledged that mistakes were made, could he please advise what steps he is taking to improve the system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b0718360fbc49cf9dbc8d808438dd0d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As I have already said, probation officers have been issued with new instructions so that, firstly, parolees will have to report more frequently, secondly, probation officers will take quicker action following breaches, and, thirdly, the Department of Corrections will provide better information to the Parole Board before parole is granted. Also, the Government has legislation before the House that will include options for the police to have greater powers to recall parolees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022884702880ac742eba6e8bb7871ef841d\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that both he and the Prime Minister yesterday thought that they would get away with a low-key, private meeting before the Department of Corrections\u2019 failings were evident to the public, and that the only reason that he has organised\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022626769ab51434d45931e3e012eefabb8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members should allow the member to complete his question. Could the member please start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7a6ed31ac674a9ba95d8fe29aedba83\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I will start again. Can the Minister confirm that he and the Prime Minister yesterday thought that they would get away with a low-key, private visit and apology before the failings of the Department of Corrections and the Ministry of Justice were known, and that the only reason he has organised another meeting is that\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Justice, who was involved in this horrendous mess, is sitting there, consistently abusing me through the process of my asking the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225938b352dac41c5ae546d95adac6268\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but I did not hear that as abuse. I heard comment, as is not unusual when members ask questions. The member could be clearly heard when asking his question, so I would ask him to continue, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d186e361d6994d5d85ff0bc99b665a8a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb37cb8e43464612934979efd450026c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a2aa50da9e48d485cb1b00a39fdf7a\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that he and the Prime Minister yesterday believed that they would get away with a low-key, private apology before the failings of the Department of Corrections were publicly known, that the only reason he has organised another meeting with the Kuchenbecker family is that Mr Kuchenbecker went to the media to say that he was not happy with the apology he received at the private meeting, and that if Mr Kuchenbecker had not gone public, nothing would have happened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fcfd88bc8bf46a683469c0927e803c1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister was not aware until yesterday that I had offered a personal apology. I had never been asked whether I had apologised to the family, and I was not prepared to politicise the family\u2019s personal grief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d8fdbff3f140668ba097e266a8ccdd\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of a case where a dangerous inmate was released on parole, against the advice of the police and without even notifying the police or, in fact, the victims of that dangerous offender, and, when the Minister was asked to explain that, not only did he fail to apologise but also he said that he would not even comment because he was on holiday\u2014and that Minister was a former Minister of Corrections, Nick Smith, in 1998?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce7026cbcae441ea2a2daa539e023d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true; you\u2019re making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e90ea86d50b40ee8459ac11e8e84571\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware of that situation, and of many other situations where mistakes occurred through the 1990s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a45d83d17ba047898f03d58959739060\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: I have been accused of making an untrue statement. I therefore seek leave to table the media statement from the Sunday Star-Times of 4 January 1998, which points out that when Nick Smith was asked to talk about the case, he said that he would not do so because he was on holiday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022841b3e4b62514aae945eff7d85cbcedd\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d6aff1a9e524af8932e044741c5e878\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Now he\u2019s just on medication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f507a9c3cfb4101800b4bc943cebe14\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That member will leave the Chamber if he intervenes again. [Interruption] I always give a warning; members have had it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ea366839ab4f789a21c6e8c231840b\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why would the Kuchenbecker family accept any further apology from the Government as genuine, when the Minister has said Mr Burton\u2019s parole was \u201Cwell managed\u201D, when Barry Matthews of the Department of Corrections has said there is no blood on his hands, and when the Prime Minister has said it is fine overall but there are just one or two little things to fix; why would the family think the Minister was at all sincere, given that the Government has denied all responsibility for this death?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242564cd14cfb429e94cb92f0ac43d91f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am prepared to meet with Mr Kuchenbecker in good faith. I am not prepared to judge what he may or may not think. However, as I have said several times before regarding the situation\u2014and I will say this again now\u2014I do not consider the way the department managed Mr Burton to be good enough. Mistakes were made and must be rectified. That is why I and Barry Matthews have moved swiftly to tighten up the way probation is managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022478aabf619a742dfa90163d661feb705\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that tragedies like the deaths of Mr Kuchenbecker and Liam Ashley, and the other deaths either in custody or as a result of the Department of Corrections\u2019 decisions, will continue to be regular occurrences until we have in this country a genuine, independent prison inspectorate with the ability and function to proactively investigate the policies and practices of the Department of Corrections and make binding recommendations to the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293795123fef34ebf8ea884266cc10f55\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We have to work to make sure these are not regular occurrences. I acknowledge that the Ombudsman is doing a large amount of work in the area of corrections\u2014investigating on his own motion in a number of areas, such as transportation. He has previously looked into the area of prison management. We take on board all of his recommendations and will continue to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ecf7aa682374a278b43e37a29a9b041\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister make a formal public apology for the many failings of his department, as documented in his own department\u2019s report, in terms of actions that culminated in the murder of Karl Kuchenbecker; yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220196391b9cec4fb3ac7ebcb551560d03\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I will meet with Mr Kuchenbecker and his wife. I will not tell that member what I might be prepared to say to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1eeab9e208c45919bb7b5c536ff68f4\u0022\u003EBenefits\u2014Transition to Work\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a4c64d1fd9b444e8cd7e9b2bf0b06cc\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports, if any, has he received on the Government\u2019s further progress at supporting New Zealanders into work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6cd5054f9414abcbdd58b99e43a70ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6cd5054f9414abcbdd58b99e43a70ea\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I can advise the House that this Government continues to have great success in supporting New Zealanders into work. As members will be aware, unemployment benefit numbers have fallen from 161,000 under National to just under 40,000 last year. I advise the House today that with further job-search support services provided through Work and Income, unemployment benefit numbers have fallen even further\u2014reducing by 5,000 in the last month alone. The number of people on the unemployment benefit has now been further reduced to 32,000, which is the lowest level since 1982.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022596a84b669854da2a969e645a96d2dd5\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: How are total benefit numbers tracking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022951ce940f5f748699bdc21b3452b80be\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: In the last year the number of working-age benefit recipients has fallen from 293,000 to 269,000. That is a fall in 1 year of 24,000. That equates to 66 people a day, every day, who are no longer reliant on a benefit. In the last month alone, all benefit categories saw a reduction. Sickness and invalids benefit numbers fell by 40, domestic purposes benefit numbers fell by 850, and unemployment benefit numbers fell by 5,200.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a27e1276a0a41f98fd36064a592e8b8\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou i te Whare. Is the Minister aware of the comments of one of his predecessors, the Hon Rick Barker, who said, in December 2003: \u201COf the 8,055 M\u0101ori unemployed for more than 6 months who achieved stable employment outcomes in the year ending June 2003, 3,556 had re-enrolled by November 2003.\u201D, and does he agree that nearly 50 percent of the unemployed going back on the dole within 6 months confirms the widely held view that this Government\u2019s grand plans to get M\u0101ori into work have been an abject and miserable disaster; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c99c8009bd447f1a297d686e859761c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I am certainly aware of the excellent efforts of my predecessor in part of this portfolio\u2014and I compliment him on his timely arrival in the House. I say to that member that he seems to have missed one important fact, which is that M\u0101ori unemployment reduced by 70 percent from January 1999 to January this year\u2014from 15,174 people to just 4,525.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7eae806f34d45918e3d8d67c4f45bb6\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister planning to bring in thousands of unskilled foreign seasonal workers to pick fruit, when thousands of able-bodied working-age people are sitting on the unemployment benefit in Hawke\u2019s Bay and the Bay of Plenty right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022871b44f7c104496e89ccbbc847b6b7b5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the member is only too aware of the fact that New Zealanders, especially the unemployed, have first call on those jobs. I will read to her the words of Peter Silcock from Horticulture New Zealand in a press release dated 7 March: \u201CThe industry and government have been working together on ensuring enough seasonal labour is available, in Hawke\u2019s Bay and around the country, for a number of years. The industry is very pleased with the effort government has made to help industry meet its expanding labour needs.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022752dfcb7d40243789a427ab40f149cd1\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to the reports the Minister has already told us about, what other reports has he seen concerning benefit numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c808149eb66e42ebae8a4566fea67de7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have recently seen an extraordinary report that inflates the number of people on a benefit by 10 percent by sourcing the statement from old 2005 data; that pretends there has been no change to the number of long-term unemployed, when, in fact, that number has reduced from 70,000 under a National Government to 13,000 today, which is an 80 percent reduction; and that claims that New Zealand unemployment and incapacity benefits are tracking in the same way as those of Australia and the UK, when, in fact, New Zealand numbers are reducing at least four times as quickly as those of those jurisdictions. Those comments were made by John Key on the Agenda programme on Saturday, and show his now characteristic disregard for the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261dd07fd30194cb88f40040979da2432\u0022\u003EHone Harawira\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou i te Whare. I thank the Minister for his positive remarks about M\u0101ori unemployment. Does the Minister agree that unemployment rates for M\u0101ori still being three times higher than those for non-M\u0101ori highlights a massive and ongoing failure in the Government\u2019s ability to support M\u0101ori into work; and is the Government willing to admit its mistake in shutting down the closing the gaps policy, just as the Ministry of Education admitted yesterday that it had made a mistake in removing the Treaty from the curriculum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225be99988ef184e08bd9938f69a8095f7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: No and no. What it shows is the good sense of the high priority this Government has given in the past, and continues to give, to unemployment issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918cf063a3324d2897356b1eb682680d\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbc0334c5df144b981acd49df11d1f4b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When a member of the Opposition was asking a question, he sought silence. When a member on the other side of the House is asking a question, that member should not be shouted down. So would the Minister please ask his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d66599b09aa44e508692c86a89e90103\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that M\u0101ori are going into work five to six times more quickly than any other race in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1183c14382848ab99b312d4fecddce0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that success. Of course, when one starts from a higher percentage of unemployment, even greater success takes a long time to benchmark out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a3324d6e1284833b49e3f08124309af\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a report headed \u201CFruit left to rot as growers face major pickers shortage\u201D; it is in relation to the Hawke\u2019s Bay and fruit pickers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022871b24fea19f48219c79be699743a5fb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb9458b35e340f5a5b0dd4579182f9b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a release dated 7 March this year from Horticulture New Zealand in relation to Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2019s seasonal labour needs that says exactly the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f535a1c464cc481fba559e6213b77894\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002236e4f06589224a2eb8271d04273815d1\u0022\u003ECorrections, Department\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f2433235db44b3a05d455333d08b11\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he have confidence in his department; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd7daed2e9664bca8c9ec1b021dc6f1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd7daed2e9664bca8c9ec1b021dc6f1d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, but there is always room for improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af018874ff6e44c9832a7187c20a3c75\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How can there be any credibility to his claim that corruption amongst prison guards is not a widespread problem when, in addition to the current investigations at Rimutaka Prison and Christchurch Prison, four guards assisted convicted rapist Trevor Robinson to have a conjugal visit with his girlfriend while on a hospital visit; or is it now acceptable for guards to provide this service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f029f4a99c1c422abcd5685c7bce273a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I take these allegations extremely seriously. Four Department of Corrections officers have been placed on leave and are likely to be suspended today. The prisoner had to be taken to hospital for medical reasons, and the officers were given a very clear set of instructions on how the prisoner was to be supervised, including how to manage visits. It appears these instructions were not followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0114c454f24402e925be778cf2eaed4\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have greater trust and confidence in his department today because prison escapes have fallen by 78 percent in the last 10 years, and because he does not need to make the excuse that his National predecessor did in 1999 that people were in prison simply on trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceb7647898f444f1813904e1003c6ae2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that escape rates have dropped by 78 percent since 1998, and that I have far more confidence in the Department of Corrections. However, there is always room for improvement, and we will continue to make changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d36c4e9fc2a04539b13424b40382edaa\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House which party was in Government when the Department of Corrections was split from the Department of Justice, and which party privatised by contract the movement of prisoners in New Zealand; and has he received any reports from that party as to the monumental mistakes they themselves have made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa743ada32364c4d9126acfc077e5056\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that in 1997 the National Government split the Department of Corrections away from the Department of Justice in an attempt to continue the privatisation of every Government department\u2014in the same way they privatised the railways, attempted to privatise housing, and anything else they could lay their hands on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f83e0feedbc04f0d8e43710771471759\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that prison staff assisted convicted rapist Peter McNamara to father a child by smuggling out his semen from jail; and does he stand by the comments from his own managers, who simply shrugged it off and said that it was not illegal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249d6910678fe45b5a7ace146db12d322\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept those comments that it was not illegal. However, the doctor implicated in the case has actually denied participating in any such procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e58ba03b0747a4aea3279017e97f26\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that a transparent process is important when dealing with corruption, and does he now agree with New Zealand First that the only way to deal effectively with corruption in his department is to ensure that officers found to be corrupt not only lose their jobs but are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and, if found guilty, sentenced, even if that means going to jail, where they can occupy the same cells they have been supervising for the last few years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222571d0aa34c94a7eb405450ec88df3a6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I treat any claims or accusations of corruption with the most serious of efforts. That member has assisted and brought information to me. We have passed that on, and we will work with the police to identify, catch, and prosecute anyone in the corrections system who may in any way be conducting inappropriate or illegal behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226952233e8c8743faad50828cb4b879ea\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement: \u201CI think the deprivation of liberty means precisely that\u201D; if so, how can the public believe that he or his Government is really in touch with what is going on in our prisons, when prisoners get access to R18 movies, KFC, P, PlayStation games, and LCD TVs, and when they can even get guards to help them with conjugal visits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264b08fd6dd66446ebae93eb92a24262f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We take very seriously all areas of responsibility within corrections, and we will continue to make changes to improve the system to provide a higher level of security and better outcomes from corrections than ever occurred under the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd57af4f896b433eb5d7d27fde0762c0\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Have improvements been made to security in prisons, such as in the prison in Simon Power\u2019s electorate, Manawat\u016B Prison, from the days under a National Government, in 1997, when the Evening Standard reported that a typical week would see 20 to 30 nocturnal visitors making deliveries to inmates, usually by striding over a farm fence and walking up to the cell block windows?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e04c196cdcfa49db95b341ef1fa820bb\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As a measure of the illegal activity taking place in prisons, a random drug test is usually fairly accurate. When the National Government was in power, random drug tests identified over 30 percent of people using drugs in prison. That level is now down to 13 percent\u2014a huge improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e119c5c8c20425dba46fdc2fcc858c8\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can he tell the House today exactly how many inquiries into corruption are going on in his department, given that he initially told Radio New Zealand National that he did not know, then he said there were three investigations, only to have his staff call Radio New Zealand National to say that, actually, there were only two investigations\u2014how many investigations are there today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0697b2b3db047c2ad8ed14bccfc12bf\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot provide the exact number, but any allegations of corruption will be given the highest level of priority and investigated thoroughly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a538d5581389486498b15f9b3d991e81\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister explain conflicting comments from his department regarding recidivist sex offender John Clarke, who is described by the Parole Board in its decision to release him as not presenting \u201Can undue risk to the safety of the community\u201D, despite being described by the Department of Corrections as having a \u201Chigh risk of reoffending\u201D; and why is the Parole Board not being made to take heed of the advice of the department\u2014or is that just another gap that this House needs to legislate to fill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d3a70451ec4fa69dd29ae824450406\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As has been publicly announced on a number of occasions, we are looking to make law changes to ensure that the Parole Board is in receipt of all relevant information to assist it to make the right decisions. In this case I believe that the Department of Corrections analysis was indeed accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c2e4d4f333476c96987a724f345dfd\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister\u2019s confidence in his department diminished at all by the review of the Parole Board, when it states that the Burton case \u201Craises a question as to whether the Board\u2019s expectations were reasonably capable of being resourced by those responsible for supervision.\u201D; and, given the longstanding concerns around monitoring and enforcement of parole conditions, what is the Minister doing to ensure that parole conditions mean more than a hill of beans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44a9b56403b43bb8cb2e1938b6ce28a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We have recently issued clear instructions that any possible breaches of parole will be dealt with by immediate action and contact with that parolee within 24 hours, and that the reporting times for people on life parole or the offender warning system will be weekly until all the terms and conditions of their parole have been met. It is always a challenging area for those probation officers; we will continue to support them to ensure they do the best job possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d54e6cb1abd841c3bcf84d9e1f9ed2f6\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister seriously telling this House that he has no idea how many investigations there are into corruption in New Zealand\u2019s prison system; indeed, if he is not telling the House that, will he please tell the House how many investigations are currently going on into corruption in New Zealand prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ddcc852fd754099b64dcd4284fb877d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of investigations at Christchurch Prison and at Rimutaka Prison. But I would expect that any claims, or any suspicion, would be dealt with immediately, initially by the prison managers, and that is why I am not in the position to identify the exact number at this moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284a275b453e749dea195905a9e5c4f2e\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen evidence and reports stating that Lesley Martin was denied parole by the Parole Board because of her failure to give an unqualified acceptance of the impropriety of her offending, and reports that the Parole Board failed to parole Peter Ellis because he refused to accept the guilt of his crime, and can he compare those decisions to the Parole Board\u2019s decision to give back-end home detention to John Thomas Clarke, despite the fact that in the Parole Board\u2019s own decision it notes that he denied his offending\u2014does that not concern the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218efb0cc820c44a8b3c4f6474b3050f2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It is not in my role to comment on the decisions by the Parole Board. It is my responsibility to ensure that the corrections system is in a position to provide all the relevant information to the Parole Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EQuestion interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe5cdac51d5b4d86a9f80fddbbf2958d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u2014Personal Explanation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba55e31fe0734fbd8bfaf7c3505f12e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba55e31fe0734fbd8bfaf7c3505f12e9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a personal explanation under Standing Order 350 in respect of the claims made by Mr Phil Goff about my time as Minister of Corrections and the paroling of Mr Neil Swain. On 2 January 1998 I was approached as Minister of Corrections by the Sunday Star-Times to make comment in respect of the paroling of Neil Swain, and I declined to comment, saying I was on holiday. I note that at the time none of his parole conditions were breached, no offence was committed by Mr Swain. I also note that the police superintendent said that he had no concerns about the paroling. I suggest that for Mr Goff to make the analogy with Mr Burton, when he in fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a67803fca1148e79aff1d5d5ff7fcff\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that in a personal explanation he confines it to matters about the member himself. That is why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5cce2e29c8542179912f30462272cc8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: And I have made plain to the House the circumstances are totally different to those affecting Mr Burton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00227bc7d587fdc546cf8deb2a0ce3db95f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bc7d587fdc546cf8deb2a0ce3db95f0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. This is an occasion in which a member offers a sort of personal explanation and has gone well beyond the matter of personal explanation. The matter of personal explanation concerns whether he actually said that. He said he did; that was actually sufficient. Then he went on to matters that are not relevant to him personally, in terms of his honour. I have to say that I will now be talking with Mr Brownlee, as leader of the House for National, about this issue of granting leave for personal explanations that are not personal explanations. It is a privilege in this House, and one that needs to be guarded carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbce8252109d4931a00962538a11045a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbce8252109d4931a00962538a11045a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I will certainly look forward to those discussions. I just ask you also, Madam Speaker, to consider the environment we are currently in. This is question time, a time when the Opposition and other members of Parliament are supposed to hold the executive of Government to account. We are only three questions into today\u2019s 12 questions and we have already had six supplementary questions asked of the executive by the executive. I wonder whether that is a reasonable sort of thing. I know that people like Mr Goff, who has asked four of those six questions, are probably rehearsing for Opposition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201dd4deb35d34e5a84ae38d87edfb4ea\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point order, Mr Brownlee. Please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022148905a934b24888890cac02ccd77a2d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918682156c754eaeb99ad1a68d6671df\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That comment is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270948821e31e4db588f3ee599f0e6f5c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It is. Well, that comment was certainly a gratuitous comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7813d4720d441aa7b59331d00c915a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b0e0f8ba598499c961655f0fd3dac37\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I want to apologise to Mr Goff for suggesting that he has ambition to be in Opposition. The point is that question time should be a time for members of Parliament and that the privilege of being in the executive is that generally one will be in the loop about what is going on. That may be an exception for some members of the executive, but in general, it is an environment for parliamentarians to find out what the executive is up to, and what it is doing about issues of the day. I wonder whether you might look through Speakers\u2019 Rulings and other such and consider whether you need to make a ruling about the appropriateness of the growing use of question time by members of the executive to get themselves out of trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00227613e3a010704a3db88de044410f77cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227613e3a010704a3db88de044410f77cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings on this are very clear that any member may put a question to a Minister or, indeed, a member in charge of a matter of parliamentary business. Furthermore, Madam Speaker, if you were to rule that questions should be asked only where a member does not know the answer to the question already, very few questions in this House would be asked, because the whole point usually is to elicit an answer; and then to proceed on from there\u2014to engage in, essentially, political matters. Strangely enough, this is a political body and question time is part of a political process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022b716ff2ac46842b8991633c523353277\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b716ff2ac46842b8991633c523353277\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members. On the first point, members must confine themselves to matters that are personal to the member who seeks leave. Failure to do so, of course, as has already been indicated, will, in fact, prejudice leave being given to others. So I ask all members in the House to note that the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings are very clear on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EOn the different point, there is, of course, no rule in the Standing Orders against Ministers being able to ask questions. I would note also that to some extent the point of holding the executive to account is taken to note in the number of supplementary questions that are accorded to members of the Opposition as opposed to the number accorded to the Government\u2014a matter I have explained at some length previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ed2b64ad8fb4f81a510634747ed13c2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000115\u0022\u003EQuestion resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d04c2e795dd46668d660f0025ad2113\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister\u2014[Interruption] I will continue when they have settled down over there; I know that being in Opposition is boring. Is the Minister aware of figures released by the then Minister of Corrections, Dr Nick Smith, that 42 percent of all samples taken from inmates in a new anti-drug regime showed that those inmates were, in fact, drug positive, and can he assure this House that the situation in prisons has improved markedly since the failed regime in prisons of Dr Smith and the National Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E: I can confirm that random drug testing now has identified a figure of 13 percent\u2014not 42 percent as occurred under the National Government. I consider that progress.\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299dc89d192a14bccb946bf3b331d6482\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b7e88992044436096d34c4c59353ff4\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the Parole Board\u2019s decision to grant recidivist sex offender John Clarke back-end home detention, which states that he will not present an undue risk to the safety of the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1f62b387f0946b0b4cc01008382874d\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a report where the Department of Corrections is reported to have stated that recidivist sex offender John Clarke has a high risk of reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a00a7ba942846edac389fbc32fb0376\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Minister, 14 March\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a241d8ebe3d84619b0edff60d0348e24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a241d8ebe3d84619b0edff60d0348e24\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday in the House, the Minister of Health disputed that cancer patients in Auckland were waiting 14 to 16 weeks for their radiation treatment. He claimed it was 8 to 10 weeks. I seek leave to table a letter dated Tuesday to an Auckland woman Susan with a medical consultant Dr Benjamin advising, that she must wait 14 to 16 weeks for her radiation treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002286b36142ad444b98be32880fb7181b9d\u0022\u003EAuckland Issues, Minister\u2014Vibrancy of City\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbba345ad82546fd874627ce052385c8\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues: Does she support a vibrant Auckland City; if so, what has she done to achieve this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022058e2ddcd0ea495d93eb3de448949f2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022058e2ddcd0ea495d93eb3de448949f2c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues: Mention the word vibrant and I rise to the challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d34e625177144c0a8292b69574b7d6e9\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. There are a number of Auckland members in Cabinet who are available to answer this question. Would it not be appropriate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f030a9c5016f415b860c36e0cc32ea0e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has been here long enough to know that the Government determines who addresses a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226443a25ae06a4372a70dc7926dd1eb41\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues, I say that, yes, she continues to work with Auckland leaders, and, indeed, leaders working with Auckland, to ensure that Auckland succeeds as a vibrant and sustainable world-class city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075b93b8a5764536b845c325c2a1209b\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s work with the leaders of Auckland, does she believe that the Auckland City Council\u2019s plan to ban billboards from the central business district encourages Auckland to be a vibrant city; if so, what is her advice to those who have invested in central Auckland buildings on the basis of existing-use rights for billboard sites, and who will have those rights\u2014and perhaps millions of dollars of value\u2014wiped out overnight by the Auckland City Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262aa8df38f9c476b8602acb437092265\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister provides support for Auckland. She does not run a running commentary on every issue that arises in Auckland, which is a matter for the local authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247cf257b8cfb459791c2949a744fc9dc\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: I ask a supplementary question to, apparently, the real Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236df46ae675547138c92900e78950239\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member just ask the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223372cfcec8574d559bec9bfa04199d02\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Leader of the House advise whether the Minister who holds the title of Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues is right now using her immense influence as Minister to ensure that there will in fact be legislation some time this year on regional governance for Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022598494faa8004502935089d26c9667cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of whether, at this particular moment, the Minister is doing that, but I can assure the member that the Minister is taking a close interest and was present at the Auckland Mayoral Forum last Friday, where these matters were discussed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a85eef725e48ed83f4cf2a7fee8225\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that there is overcrowding on Auckland passenger trains, that orders for new trains need to be put in urgently, and that it would be a waste of money if the trains were diesel rather than electric because there is not yet an agreement on electrification; and when will there be an announcement on a timetable for electrification and on appropriate funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed1f761ea78044b4964e94710e7ce5e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If I could explain, trains consist of locomotives and carriages; one can run more passengers in more carriages with the same locomotive. Secondly, it is possible for more trains to not necessarily be electric. Even if a decision was taken right now, at 17 minutes to 3, it would be some years before the Auckland rail line was electrified. It is not just a matter of putting wires over the top. There is a lot more to electrification than that. There would probably still be some requirement for replacement locomotives before electrics could be run. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022220f56c31fe44706a898f7f311dea709\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s judicious use of her powers of commentary, is she concerned that the actions of the Auckland City Council to ban businesses from advertising in the central business district will overturn property rights and cost the local economy hundreds of jobs and millions of dollars; and is she satisfied that the \u201Cvibrancy\u201D of Auckland City will be enhanced so greatly\u2014by exposing the buildings behind the billboards\u2014as to justify such a cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222e005e6f7c9450ea640d6d0c4191b47\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: What I am sure the Minister is aware of is that later this year the electors of Auckland will be able to cast their own judgment on these matters, which is a proper part of a democratic process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e519256faa794773a8340634be9ed05e\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that what the Auckland Regional Transport Authority needs is a timetable established for electrification so that the authority can make advance orders and that otherwise it will have to make advance orders for diesel locomotives, whereas if a timetable for electrification were announced now, the authority could advance-order electric locomotives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f94f50bd8c2a4bfba08700854dbe73eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member heard what I said previously, given the pressure on rail transport it is perfectly possible that there will need to be diesel locomotives, even if a decision were taken now. I might note that if full ordinary Resource Management Act processes are used, and a decision was announced at this time to electrify, it would probably be something like 6 years before electrification was complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b41558aa6aa84fda8db76401996698e3\u0022\u003EParole Board\u2014Application of Parole Act 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c851d7757a2493db5bba377306e7f8f\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is he satisfied that section 28(2) of the Parole Act 2002, which states that the Parole Board may parole an offender \u201Conly if it is satisfied on reasonable grounds that the offender \u2026 will not pose an undue risk to the safety of the community\u201D, has been consistently applied by the board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9f030f42d30496dad57dd5475607f5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9f030f42d30496dad57dd5475607f5b\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I agree that the member\u2019s selective quote is among the provisions of section 28(2) of the Parole Act. I can tell the member that in the Criminal Justice Reform Bill, which is in my name and currently referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee, the Government is moving to further strengthen the community safety provisions of that Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba679130aecb485e8d7795b67e2c787d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How could the release of a prisoner who had 91 convictions for burglary and violence, had at that stage committed one murder, had escaped from prison, had committed 15 violent acts inside prison, had already been declined parole three times, and had six psychological reports describing his risk of reoffending as \u201Chigh to very high\u201D suggesting he was a nutter who should not be released, as was the case with Graeme Burton, be consistent with the Minister\u2019s Parole Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abf22350e7b24ce3a91267b2b78b06d9\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is referring to cases and problems that have been widely canvassed. The important point is that this Government has taken, and is continuing to take, decisive action. I refer to the Criminal Justice Reform Bill, which is before the House. The Government is making further moves now to ensure that parole is a privilege, not a right. It will ensure the Parole Board can deal with all information, and will receive all information in making its decision, and it will strengthen generally the board\u2019s ability to hear and see all the information that it should when making its deliberations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022befe44fcc6814c8699487d79dbdad7b5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does he find it disturbing that the Parole Board now admits that it needs training to interpret the psychological reports of prisoners; and what is so hard to understand about an offender who had 91 convictions for burglary or violence, had at that stage committed one murder, had escaped from prison, had committed 15 violent acts inside prison, at that point had already been declined parole three times, and had six psychological reports describing him as a nutter who should not be released; and just how much training will the board need to understand that people like Graeme Burton, with records like that, should not be released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe57a70b732f4b81be4e27878e277e23\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: What I do find encouraging is that the Government is moving to take all the necessary action to ensure that the information and resources are available for the Parole Board to make fully informed decisions. Frankly, I invite that member to advise the House whether his party would simply continue to criticise, without ever coming up with a single solution. If that member is so concerned, he has the opportunity to support the legislation that is currently before the select committee. Finally, if the Parole Board seeks to further its capability, I would have thought the member would applaud that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229960db7ea6774c17ab23552db7e15b91\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that nothing in the Parole Act guarantees that an offender will be paroled, and that Graeme Burton, who had 91 convictions for violence and burglary, had one murder conviction at that stage, had committed 15 violent incidents inside, had failed, at that point, three attempts at parole, and at that point also had five psychological reports saying he was dangerous, was promised, on 20 March 2006 by the Parole Board, that he would be released subject to a psychological report\u2014that despite its clarity the board says now it could not read, and simply went ahead and honoured the promise to Graeme Burton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298134511be21408ea4d33e674f4ec6af\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: In addressing the matter for which I have responsibility I absolutely can confirm that there is no right to parole. What is more, this Government is moving to further clarify to remove anyone\u2019s possible doubt that parole in this country, at law, is a matter of privilege, not a matter of right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc515844e62444199a8dbfcb3640af39\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Parole Board\u2019s view that it would be wrong to take allegations of Burton\u2019s offending in prison into account when assessing risk, be consistent with ensuring public safety, when any reasonable person would have thought that if a prisoner is violent in prison he or she is likely to be violent outside of prison; or is it the case that the Department of Corrections is in such a hopeless mess that it simply wanted to get him out of prison because it could not handle him in prison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c635477b5d4533b572e1acb68dee98\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that this Government is moving to further ensure that the Parole Board will be possessed of all relevant information when it is making its deliberations. It then makes, as an independent statutory body, its deliberations. We will ensure that the Parole Board is possessed of all relevant information, whatever the level of evidential quality, and that it then makes the judgment as to the relative merits of the information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041d283573ee40fcb1263162a0f3115f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What makes him so confident that changes in the law will make the people on the Parole Board any more competent in the exercise of their duties, when it is clear they did not have to promise release to Graeme Burton, they did not take account of his violence inside the prison when they should have, and they completely ignored the record of 91 convictions for burglary and violence, his 15 violent acts inside prison, the murder he had previously been convicted of, and six psychological reports that stated: \u201CDo not let this man out. He is a nutter. He will reoffend.\u201D; and why are those people still sitting on the Parole Board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265baf1e48c2e439aa26defcae2119383\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear that the member paid no attention to the various responsibilities that resulted from the changes his party made in Government as to the lines of responsibility for appointments to the Parole Board and so on. That said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022334348c531ab47f4b4a5d1be0c2fc789\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Pass the buck!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b9eea4475848d49dab6cfa844cb37a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is a bit rich from a member who was part of the Government that made the provision. But I can tell that member that this Government is moving to ensure that all the information, all the resources, and all the statutory provisions will be in place to arm the Parole Board with all the tools it needs to do the job. I invite that member to indicate to the House that his party will give support to ensure those measures can be passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa0d154d24fe4b0f8426e02387dc5794\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u20142006 Examination Results\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226590b09a05bd404588eedc188d49fb3f\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What reports has he received on the results of the 2006 NCEA examinations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4598cc63bbc4cc88e256d25e438ed54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4598cc63bbc4cc88e256d25e438ed54\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The New Zealand Qualifications Authority has released the 2006 National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA)# national statistics, which demonstrate that student achievement has continued to improve. The results show that more students are getting NCEA qualifications at all levels, and that proportionally more students in 2006 passed the NCEA levels 1 to 3 than in previous years, continuing the trend of the past 4 years. Achievement of the literacy requirements for NCEA level 1 in year 11 went up to 75 percent, and numeracy achievement rose 6 percentage points to 82 percent. I would like to say, therefore, that I congratulate all the students and teachers in schools who have managed to carry on lifting that performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdfc171897a14fa3be4bd095bff1f5c6\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Can he tell this House what those results tell us about how the NCEA system is working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2bed67020d4268a4821fc404acbbb7\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: These latest statistics highlight the success of the NCEA system. As Dr John Langley has stated: \u201Cwe are being more accurate with what we measure and how we do it.\u201D He said that in today\u2019s newspaper. The NCEA provides students with an opportunity to perform to their potential. That means that the brightest can stretch themselves, and the others can achieve their potential across a much wider range of subjects and create a record of learning that they can use for future learning or for an employer. Therefore, it is a mystery as to why the National Party would want to continue to attack the system and threaten to replace it with a return to the old pass/fail way of doing things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a59d2ef75e46ea99e287f1a2e4eb8c\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned about the gap between male and female achievement that the latest results show; if he is concerned about that, can he advise the House when the initiatives to address achievement gaps that he referred to in a written answer to my colleague Judy Turner last July will start to produce a more even balance between male and female achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fdad75e9e7b43c68c651cfb1e6bb594\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, of course I am concerned about the performance of boys against girls. I still have a reference group working on this particular area, but it has identified at this time that the major cause seems to be the drop-off in reading, particularly as boys move into adolescence. Given that we are now enjoying increasing success in the reading programmes that we have in place in schools, I would hope that those successes will start to feed through into NCEA results from now on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229eb15ec0d0c349b4872bceb28c16b589\u0022\u003EParole\u2014Corrections Department Investigation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4e0cb20e4d6472db8eae5fb6255db29\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Why did his department\u2019s investigation into its handling of Graeme Burton\u2019s parole include the term of reference to \u201CNote any areas in which particularly good practice has been demonstrated\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffb7940c9e914ec7a9f269926b116577\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffb7940c9e914ec7a9f269926b116577\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E It was essential that this investigation look at all aspects of the management of Graeme Burton\u2019s parole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a7c1accfcb54173abc29aa02522971d\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How can he state that the department\u2019s inquiry into its handling of Graeme Burton\u2019s parole is \u201Ctechnically and legally correct in [its] conclusions\u201D when it has glossed over the fact that under the zero tolerance guidelines the department should have recalled Burton immediately rather than a week later, and the fact that it neglected to conduct a scheduled home visit when Burton had already gone; or does the direction to look for \u201Cparticularly good practice\u201D simply confirm that the report was a whitewash from the outset?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e841f1cfa34925a802a1828e80ffc7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said several times and will say again, I do not consider the way that the department managed Mr Burton to be good enough. Zero tolerance requires that immediate action be taken. It was taken. The action, in fact, was proved not to be sufficient. That is the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022604675f620194bc39e0dcef9e508a0f8\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the internal report into Burton\u2019s parole also gloss over the fact that probation service managers checked Burton\u2019s computer file, which contained all of his numerous failures to comply with his conditions, only twice in the 6 months that he was on parole, when the zero tolerance guidelines state that that should have occurred every week for the first 3 months, then every fortnight\u2014or is this just another attempt to cover up a horrendous set of circumstances that his department presided over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290d461532291439285dbcf4436c6ba3f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I have acknowledged, and the report identifies, where mistakes have been made and where practices could be improved. Instructions have been issued to ensure that service managers oversee probation officers on a regular basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9c995a3d184228becb032fc9c4b328\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister explain the difference between Barry Matthews\u2019 assessment that Burton\u2019s parole was well managed, based on the internal report, and the Minister\u2019s statements and those of the Prime Minister this week that it could have been managed better; and how can he claim to have confidence in the Department of Corrections\u2019 report, when the Prime Minister went so far as to seek independent advice from the Law Commission to challenge the findings of his own department?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006ab3d191a2431aa556330f327901f3\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Barry Matthews is a good chief executive officer. He is not perfect. I do not agree with his description of Graeme Burton\u2019s parole management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226fd30e70850479b89594060ac78e61c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall the words of the Acting Minister of Corrections, the Hon Margaret Wilson, in 2003 when she publicly acknowledged and deeply regretted that there had been a number of mistakes in the way that mass murderer William Duane Bell\u2019s parole had been managed, including the fact that, as with Burton, his probation officer had gone on leave and home checks had not been completed; in light of the standard set by the Hon Margaret Wilson, will the Minister take the opportunity right now to make a public apology in the House this afternoon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209169ea50fd1449eaca79bad86ebed68\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot remember the particular words said by the Acting Minister at the time, but I understand the situation. We will move to ensure that when probation officers go on holiday there is adequate cover, and that the service managers oversee the proper transfer of responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c17797be17946caa5a18a1f1a8af5d3\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Department of Corrections Chief Executive, Barry Matthews, claim after the Prime Minister\u2019s statement to the House that opened this year\u2019s sitting that he was not aware of any changes to the Parole Act, and why was his department, which has to administer the probation service, not consulted; has the situation simply got to the point where the entire department\u2014even in terms of seeking the department\u2019s advice on issues like changes to parole\u2014no longer has the confidence of the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c66b0b31f13415f8ea78d8115acb612\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The process of consultation with Mr Matthews and the department is taking place at this moment, to ensure that changes to parole will in fact improve the situation and provide better security for the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cc84cb4c24d4d3280869be2be15e0fb\u0022\u003EDisability Strategy\u2014Achievements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee1d672d2994c2b877a3dc7a7aa9f04\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Disability Issues: What has the Government\u2019s New Zealand Disability Strategy achieved since its release 6 years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2c54180918b4432bf0562d2989d0c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2c54180918b4432bf0562d2989d0c8d\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E As the House will well know, the list is long. But today I am very pleased to announce that my colleague Steve Maharey and I have launched the New Zealand Sign Language curriculum for New Zealand schools. Introducing sign language into the school curriculum to support its being made an official language is another world first for New Zealand, and one we should all be very proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ecc048b872b4dc5b8d608ea894c528f\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister therefore tell the House what she expects the sign language curriculum to achieve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022952584c1c32149189840a2c7191e57e7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The curriculum is another huge step forward in the recognition of sign language as an official language of our country, and will contribute to this Government\u2019s effort towards a more inclusive society. The curriculum will promote sign language as a choice alongside other languages offered in schools, while creating greater access to sign language for both deaf and hearing students, as well as increasing the pool of learners and users of this unique language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d671a7097d6846b9b018ba29c0dfb668\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Minister used such blatant bullying tactics on the disability sector to get her way, to the extent that the chief executive officer of IHC New Zealand said it had become too politically correct in some areas and that the $140 million comes with a cost and, as a result, 2,000 disabled people lost their choice of job as IHC New Zealand closed all the sheltered workshops?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223631773efe54bac89745437c42b7bc9\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I remain very proud of my advocacy on behalf of disabled people in New Zealand. Nobody has been denied anything other than improved opportunities in vocational services under our Government\u2019s leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bffb43c1b3c4cff993cf8f126d15d8f\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two documents. The first is a letter from Ralph Jones, Chief Executive Officer of IHC New Zealand. He writes: \u201CYes, the IHC has become too politically correct in some areas.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223327952bd4c0406ab2904a324024e308\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a4a0e24a6d4acd81f5ce630b6074e3\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: The second is from an article in the New Zealand Herald, dated 10 February, which states: \u201CToday 2000 disabled people, most of them from IHC \u2026 have lost their jobs.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dcb2748e9a64610b77c0945cfcd4bd3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d4d6b76b1644c8cb50b1cb9026c899b\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Free Hours, Number of Recipients\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226000d10f7b4e4584b5c5a3d0d7ab92d0\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: How many 3 and 4-year-olds will receive 20 free hours of early childhood education on 1 July 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2ca96cb8ba747b69663a6418f1e7487\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2ca96cb8ba747b69663a6418f1e7487\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E As has been explained to the member on more occasions than I care to count, based on current enrolments, up to 92,000 3 and 4-year-olds will be eligible to receive 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education in teacher-led centres from 1 July this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240bcb1d41e964f8b8154433b5ba8ec90\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be making any amendments to the rules for 20 free hours before 1 July 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1cb759c5b24132bb77abe554d917b3\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6fd244c42944dacbc75e7118aff2ab5\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his statement in February, after hearing concerns from the early childhood sector, that he will \u201Camend some rules to make it work\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ede2c71c8448d3b2e47510820ba122\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In meeting with the sector at that time\u2014all 12 parts of the sector\u2014I made it clear to the people involved that the Ministry of Education would do what it is currently doing. It is travelling the country and talking face to face with providers, because it may become clear during that process that the way we interpret the rules in different parts of the sector may have to be clarified. At the time, I used the example of home-based education services, which of course differ greatly from institutionally based services. The need may be to clarify the rules in relation to the different parts of the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022851be3815e84490ead286728a1161f82\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has the Minister seen on alternatives to the very popular policy of 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ff81a6765f1491a9013c70881bbcbd5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen many reports. The first one said that the 20-hour entitlement would be welcomed by families. The second said that the scheme should be scrapped. The third said that the scheme should be replaced by a tax deduction system, where parents save up their receipts and take them to the Inland Revenue Department at the end of the year and get repaid for the year just passed. The next report advocated spending over $1 billion to extend the scheme to every early childhood education centre in the country. In a further statement, objection was raised to any funding at all being spent on informing parents about the policy. All of those statements came from different spokespeople within the National Party who seem not to know about this policy, at all. But I will bet a large amount of money that by the next election, they will agree with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226139f4193bb541f48568787bce903936\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Which is correct\u2014the sector needs to know\u2014is it the Prime Minister\u2019 statement on Tuesday in this House that \u201Cchanges are not likely\u201D; the Minister\u2019s statement in February, which was very clear that he would \u201Camend some rules\u201D; or his wishy-washy statement today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f7d9a967184cb6a3ce399247cc2641\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f6e2452be142f6859b0083c08fdc30\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That question was heard in near silence, so courtesy will be shown in order that the reply can be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261b6a6d2cf1742a4bf1ab54983565683\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It was a multi-choice question, but I will add a fourth option, which is actually what was said. We met with all parts of the early childhood sector. During that discussion, I made it very clear that during the time those groups would spend talking with the Ministry of Education prior to the roll-out of this scheme, we would make sure that all of the rules applied in a way that was fair to each of the 12 sectors of the early childhood sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b71b7cc85040ee9c92736d10b6030d\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the written statement of his colleague Shane Jones that attention around 20 hours\u2019 free education is \u201Cbeing driven by a minority of commercial providers more concerned with profits than educating our younger generations\u201D, and how does that statement reconcile with the Auckland Kindergarten Association, which declared just last week that it would not be opting in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e3626000fb4418b44757bbc907c42e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the last comment by Ms Bennett, who always misrepresents the sector, I say that the Auckland Kindergarten Association said it was still considering the policy\u2014whereas, for example, the Waikato Kindergarten Association has already announced that it is opting in, saying that it is a wonderful initiative by the Government. I say to the member that Mr Shane Jones says a lot of very sensible things. There is a debate going on about this policy, as anybody would expect at the present time\u2014all big policies have debates. As I mentioned to the House yesterday, over 90 percent of the people who go to the discussions with the Ministry of Education are leaving those discussions saying they understand the policy and know how to apply it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca9edf02e5f744c9a5acad1df5af6d68\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with Shane Jones that the sector has too long been treated as something that anyone can do; if so, what about the 94 non-teacher-led services north of Auckland that will not get access to this Government\u2019s hoax of 20 free hours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221686a3d433ac4029aa5f73498c34d457\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It is always good to get policy from the National Party. Ms Bennett has again promised to extend this policy to all early childhood centres, for $1 billion\u2014that from a tax-cutting party! National cannot spend more and cut taxes at the same time, and that is why Mrs Bennett will be remaining on the Opposition benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af93fd9a77a647f0b0f18f9bc7d38e95\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: It is not Mrs Bennett; it is Miss Bennett. I seek leave to table a document from the Sunday Star-Times that very clearly states that the Minister of Education, Steve Maharey, has conceded that he will amend some rules in order to make the policy work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204246e3639b244ce94191e0578b2faa9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f561c860c346eea0d252c1a7327448\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the document concerning Shane Jones, who states very clearly that early childhood education has been driven by a minority of commercial providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4e4556b15fb4bbaa830ba204b746f3b\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f55f1eabf35940259a14c15427d7ec60\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the list of those providers that are north of Auckland and will not have access to this hoax of a scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211a777593d3646e7b78807e334ebabf9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022409daca5899a45adbd1acefe165e1787\u0022\u003EQuestion Time\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002266b6957ba83945efa5b877d99936ab9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266b6957ba83945efa5b877d99936ab9f\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I notice that the Government benches are looking particularly empty at this point in time, and I ask you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022fae61e2b93f54af18a686580a2d39598\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fae61e2b93f54af18a686580a2d39598\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. To comment on that is not appropriate. It will create disorder if we raise issues about who is in the House and who is not. There is a longstanding convention that that is not done. [Interruption] There we go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d51c6ae251504794beb9a18048491f0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d51c6ae251504794beb9a18048491f0f\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Could we be assured that the Government is abiding by Standing Order 156, which requires that leave can be granted for only 25 percent of a caucus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022569490f1adf74596be332cd2ae0d73f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022569490f1adf74596be332cd2ae0d73f5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a party vote issue. I suggest the member read the Standing Orders clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002253ec2febcca14292a0e9ed3e4fdc0fcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253ec2febcca14292a0e9ed3e4fdc0fcd\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You will recall that a few weeks ago there was quite an extensive discussion in this House about how the House could verify whether Taito Phillip Field\u2019s proxy vote was being exercised in line with his intentions. What came out of that discussion was that it is quite difficult for the rest of Parliament to ascertain whether the voting rules are being kept. In this case, throughout question time 19 Labour members have been absent. The House generally accepts that, because we are familiar with the traditional practice of parliamentarians that if they are in the building they are present at question time, and if they are not present at question time it is highly likely they are out of the building. We have drawn the reasonable assumption that, for voting purposes, Labour has 19 members away when it should have only 12 members away. I think it is fair for parliamentarians to infer from what is the normal behaviour whether Labour is complying with the Standing Order. Madam Speaker, we would appreciate your assistance on what assurance we can have that, given that 19 Labour members are absent from question time, Labour is complying with the Standing Order that limits it to 12 absences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f45faa06fa1d4b358de51cb4e6149c3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f45faa06fa1d4b358de51cb4e6149c3b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Of course, the point you made in your previous ruling, Madam Speaker, was that the 25 percent issue applies when a vote is taken, not at any other time in the House. Secondly, I note that 14 members of the National Party are away at this precise moment. National is entitled to only 12 proxies. [Interruption] I invite the member to count her membership around the House; she is missing 14 at the present time. Thirdly, this matter has been dealt with in many previous rulings. It is for the whips to deal with the issue of the absence of members and proxies. If members wish to get into that area, then we will start raising questions about where Mr Key is and where other members of the National Party are. Mr Key has asked only about seven questions in the House since he became the Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00223fb0c176d2da42f0bf9ae7b21e55d960\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fb0c176d2da42f0bf9ae7b21e55d960\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, as the Hon Bill English has asked you to reflect upon the situation that he has quite clearly outlined, could you, for the benefit of the rest of us at this end of the House\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227baf30fdfc264abab3ac0a8f1e4b9d8f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Who intervened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad7efe365ee47a68d948024827c5571\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It was the first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a920efaceca43a2bb28c18192c8ae68\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I believe in fairies! This is a serious point, and I think all members should be here to hear it, so I ask members to please restrain themselves. It is an important matter. It is a fundamental matter to trust relationships in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c789b794754c67b9df59d96655fa4e\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, could you please advise the House as to what the situation currently is with Mr Brian Connell. Mr Connell is a member of this House. Mr Connell has been expelled from the National Party caucus. Mr Connell\u2019s vote is still being cast\u2014or is it not? Under what authority and what jurisdiction is that vote being cast? What proof and evidence does the House have to see that Mr Connell actually is\u2014or is not\u2014a member of Parliament, or a member of the National caucus, and is being accorded the due rights and privileges given to him, his having been elected as the member of Parliament for Rakaia? We from this end of the House would hate to see Mr English advocate one position against one party whilst he displays a completely contrary view within his own team, of which he is the deputy leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u002283e5b2aee30e43c894b2749fd28b1335\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283e5b2aee30e43c894b2749fd28b1335\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am perfectly happy to reassure the House that the National Party is complying with Standing Order 156, and that I hold the proxies. We have less than one-quarter of our members absent from the precincts of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022334e4480143242e682f7d2aec3b374a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022334e4480143242e682f7d2aec3b374a5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, I will rule on it. That is not the question. The question is that Standing Order 156 can arise only when a party vote is held. There is no party vote being held at this moment, to my knowledge. Also, there is no rule as to general attendance in this House, so it is not relevant at this time as to how many are here or not here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EOn the point that Ron Mark raised, I have not been notified of Mr Connell\u2019s change of membership, and therefore he is still a member of the National Party as far as I am concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cb12e188156496dbe03859735f35444\u0022\u003EModern Apprenticeships Scheme\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022639a6f02e2554170966c5d082b5b23f6\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education: What reports has he received on the success of the Modern Apprenticeships scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002297c21369cf824cd18e42eef22ce731f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297c21369cf824cd18e42eef22ce731f5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education):\u003C/span\u003E Last week I had the pleasure of personally congratulating Mr Phillip Newport, the 3,000th Modern Apprentice to complete training under this scheme. The 3,000 Modern Apprentices who have now completed their training prove that the Labour-led Government\u2019s revitalisation of trades training is continuing to bear fruit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224103f21c9f484032b15b70cd573034a6\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House how many Modern Apprentices are currently in training and contributing to the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba0e015a1634a0d8726d72450c41279\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The latest statistics show that at 31 December 2006 there were 9,466 Modern Apprentices in training\u2014up 13 percent from December 2005. Total industry training numbers increased 5 percent over the same period to just under 124,000. This is in marked contrast to the destruction of apprenticeship in the 1990s, which was particularly marked by the repeal of the Apprenticeship Act by the Rt Hon Bill Birch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cbaafbe64754f2ab331851a09509dce\u0022\u003EDisabled Persons Employment Promotion Act 1960\u2014Repeal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa96a9c913e049a8bf1277b87aec196d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Disability Issues: Is she prepared to extend the transition period for the repeal of the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act 1960, given that New Zealand\u2019s largest sheltered workshop says her proposed replacement contains \u201Cserious flaws\u201D; if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002238aaa02fa25144b295e59c35beb00e25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238aaa02fa25144b295e59c35beb00e25\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E If the member had had the opportunity to read my Supplementary Order Paper to the bill, which has been tabled and circulated to all members of the House, he would realise that, in fact, I am proposing that the bill\u2019s commencement date be amended from 30 June 2007 to 30 November 2007. This suggestion was made by Peter Brown, who has actually made a constructive contribution towards this legislation\u2014unlike the member asking the question, who, as usual, has not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220845d15bab1f4a1fa0749aa0e37764a3\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister cutting the incomes of New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a33ef52c7d5477d84d03bf6d43d533e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As has been explained carefully to the member on a number of occasions, I am not. I am happy to\u2014again\u2014table the figures showing that the proposal he consistently makes is factually inaccurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e80da6624b447beafdbcb0a0f17e02e\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister repeat her answer, because I am not sure the member over there, Paul Hutchison, really got it; can she confirm that it was New Zealand First that pressed for the extension of the transition period from 30 June to 30 November as a means of addressing the concerns the member has raised; and will she also confirm that this is yet another example of the success of a party that does, as opposed to one that merely says?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214f9728801f04c1d81bcc4b6b5d09a05\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment of the commencement date to 30 November 2007 was not made after one brief discussion with the member who asked that supplementary question, Peter Brown, but after a long series of very detailed information points, on which I was able to confidently assure the member of a smooth transition period between now and that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eca78f476d1d4e11997fe717751bea4b\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has the Minister received on the repeal of the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c83b865cd860442b85f575101e89e74c\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Aside from the very selectively quoted press statement mentioned in the primary question, I have received the same report from that workshop, which goes on to say that it actually supported the repeal, but wanted more time\u2014exactly what we are giving. I have also received a report from the Disabled Persons Assembly, which states: \u201CNational spokesman on disability issues, Dr Paul Hutchison, appears to be out of touch in his support of this continued injustice.\u201D After receiving Paul Hutchison\u2019s question today, I have to admit I am wholeheartedly in agreement with the Disabled Persons Assembly; that member is certainly out of touch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225489ea848bc14248bde32268042ebad4\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Does she not understand that she is cutting the incomes of vulnerable workers, given the description of her flawed tax benefit arrangements by a leading sheltered workshop chief executive officer, who says: \u201CIt is morally unacceptable for a Government to siphon these funds out of the disability sector.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf622e2a32c43549846ae327a4e76c5\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f61eb7374a41d79c29aa130f13ea6b\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Given her partial backdown, why does she not for once be sensible and accept the excellent practical amendment proposed by Dr Paul Hutchison, which allows the bill to be enacted as soon as the serious flaws are removed, given that the sector does not trust her to meet her extended deadline because of her\u2014to quote\u2014\u201Cdismal record over the last 3 years\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe61561c611747d2bcf4725ab78de8b9\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Should the extraordinarily modest member ever make a sensible suggestion, I guarantee I will give it adequate consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6b78f4cb9e9481dbc83557f01ce3a5f\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she tell the Weekend Herald: \u201CIf I wanted the sheltered workshops closed I would\u2019ve closed them. But I don\u2019t.\u201D, when she told a meeting of the Disabled Persons Assembly that she wanted all sheltered workshops closed, and the sooner the better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ceea1579a9847c58b7ef2e4a68294e7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is not true, and the member knows it. I have never said that, and if I had wanted them closed, that would have been the proposal I would have put to Cabinet, and it would have been the proposal in the legislation before the House. The member should withdraw that, because it is a lie about me and a slur on my integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc6641d65b24ed683e5152ebda71c79\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister asking for a withdrawal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e9a1205be34d7abeeab1437a0e1867\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am asking for a withdrawal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a90d4dad2c5444078c6c2e1d87f90869\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is very hard to see how the Minister can be taking an offence from a stated comment made by Dr Hutchison. There is nothing offensive in it. If there is a mistake in it, then I think that should be corrected by the Minister. I do not think she can get out of it just by saying someone is lying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4442f4ee2ea4299901ef5f6a1ca6ce0\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise for calling the member a liar. The statement is incorrect, and I take offence at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227294fb71a0b4f8aba905eca6586d34a\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Can she guarantee that no disabled employees or sheltered workshops will be worse off after 30 November as a result of her bill; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241d34c9d287f46ba90b8846b60666704\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, because I do not administer every single sheltered workshop, and there may be instances of incompetence or fraud under which circumstances\u2014or a range of others\u2014a sheltered workshop may close. Therefore, disabled people may be worse off. But the member knows that despite no additional funding throughout the entire 9 years of his party\u2019s Government and an additional $44 million from our Government over 5 years, the sector has been considerably strengthened. He knows that to be the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c37d5bac2284c81b63557369f9597b4\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: What will she do about the major practical flaws in her legislation, given that one highly respected sheltered workshop chief executive said that as a result of her bill, paper shuffling will quadruple and disabled workers will be little better off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ae05d79696d4030997996e22ccb170b\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The aim of the repeal of the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill is to ensure that individuals who are employed in sheltered workshops are assessed for their entitlement to the minimum wage on the basis of their capacity to do the job they are employed to do, rather than on where they are employed to do that job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table again, for the member\u2019s benefit, a graph showing the increase in total income for people receiving an invalids benefit, and a range of wage payments that shows they actually increase their income rather than decrease it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680cd62c6d734c848faf0365b37be7db\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two reports. The first is a release from Auckland Workforce Industries, which states: \u201CWe cannot be confident that the flaws in the Minister\u2019s bill, given the dismal lack of progress in the last 3 years\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d5651bc5266434095ef6164f4add623\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e13d24556d640488f7b3548302a8203\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: The second report is from the ability group to a member of one of the Minister\u2019s coalition partners, which states that it is morally unacceptable for a Government to siphon these funds out of the disability sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222875647badd2405f806f4e61092605e4\u0022\u003EZimbabwe Residence Policy\u2014Eligible Non-applicants\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022907a2d6544724a4b936aaff9869e39c3\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Is the Immigration Service taking any action to find the 98 eligible Zimbabwean nationals at large who did not apply under the Special Residence for Zimbabweans Policy before 28 February 2007; if so, how many have they found to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7a5ab0570e747c5a525fa9ab0be12fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7a5ab0570e747c5a525fa9ab0be12fa\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Acting Minister of Immigration)\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the department has made a considerable effort to contact people to encourage them to apply under the special policy for residence. I have been advised that the number of eligible applicants who have not applied has now been reduced to 70 from the 98 the member was aware of. The Government\u2019s policy on this matter is clear: anyone who fails to apply by the deadline does not have a guarantee of residence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0490388d3d48b898960328b6f578bc\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Associate Minister of Immigration aware of the Minister\u2019s statement: \u201CAny Zimbabwean national illegally in New Zealand would be subject to removal processes.\u201D; if so, why is the Immigration Service not vigorously searching out these people with a view to their leaving this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b58a9f027724fd684f7b8df50bf862f\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: The department always actively seeks to locate persons unlawfully in New Zealand. Such persons have their cases dealt with on a case by case basis, taking into account their personal situation. The member should note that I have been advised that not all of the 70 individuals are in New Zealand unlawfully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223385be795d4f40479b6640b66ca790c0\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the last point the Minister made, what does he have to say to the hundreds of people waiting for residency with no guarantees of success, after having applied legally, who see a group of people who have been rejected for guaranteed entry yet are still able to apply through other channels\u2014does he think that is fair, and is it a reflection of Labour\u2019s attitude to immigration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e630061f1f49999c4bebb66d7713e3\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I can say to that member\u2014and I am sure he is aware of it\u2014that all cases in respect of individual applications are dealt with on their merits and fairly on a case by case basis, and that is as it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfdb0f8c8e0940efb68745cb82a696d5\u0022\u003EFisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269f94c47df39413dbcc2e75aba5ce6f4\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000270\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 13 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00223e25dd96bbf14341ac0c00c0dd5fb6b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e25dd96bbf14341ac0c00c0dd5fb6b0\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party welcomes this Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill. This amendment is intended to put sustainability at the forefront of fisheries legislation. Ever since the introduction of meaningful regulation of fishing in the 1980s, the fishing industry has been characterised by extreme litigiousness at every turn, with fishers seeking to increase catches without adequate regard for the long-term sustainability of the resource. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt is well known that over the years there has been considerable under-reporting of catches, trucking\u2014which is the reporting of catch as having been taken from one area when it has actually been taken from another, such as has happened with hoki\u2014and other deviations from the law. That is not surprising when only a portion of the total fishing fleet typically has scientific observers on board to bear witness to what fishers are doing. This is not to say that are all fishers are crooked; it is just that there are some bad apples, if you like, in the bunch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThere are examples\u2014in fact, many examples\u2014of fishers leading the way in trying to lessen the adverse effects of their activities on non-target species, such as Dave Kellian\u2019s invention of an underwater bait-setting device. In some cases, such as those cited in Southern Seabird Solutions, there are collective efforts to clean up the industry and its impact on the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIn some specific fisheries, fishers have taken quite a strong stand on managing the fishery to ensure that it is sustainable, but often that has not occurred until well after the fishery has already been overfished. In fact, it turns out that fisheries are most profitable when they are fished to only 75 percent of the level of biomass that will support the maximum sustainable yield, which is under the levels that fish stocks need to maintain themselves as sustainable. That is the highest level of profitability, so it is not good for fisheries as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ETime and time again we have seen fishers defeat the Ministry of Fisheries in court, when the ministry has attempted to uphold sustainability measures. Similarly, Ministers of Fisheries have repeatedly retracted their decisions that promote sustainability in favour of economics, and at times Ministers have bent to sheer economic opportunism, irrespective of the environmental impact. One example, of course, is the setting of a much higher catch limit on squid in the last fishing season, despite that resulting in an increased numbers of deaths of endangered New Zealand sea lions in the SQU6T quota area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis bill should help to address those problems. For the first time it will put environmental sustainability ahead of economics in the Fisheries Act 1996, and this is long overdue. There can be no economic sustainability without environmental sustainability. Environmental sustainability is a precondition to a secure economic future for our country. It is not the other way around, as many of those who have been responsible for trashing the planet in various ways, whether through overfishing or soil degradation, would have us believe. This bill takes the position that if the information about a fish stock or about the effect of exploiting it on other species\u2014such as with the sea lion issue I raised earlier\u2014or on the marine ecosystem is uncertain, inadequate, or unreliable, then decisions can be made to ensure sustainability. I would have thought that that was an absolute no-brainer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIf one takes a look at stock assessments over recent years, remembering that the state of the stock is just one aspect of marine sustainability, one sees numerous cases where information is clearly inadequate, uncertain, or unreliable. For example, there are estimates of p\u0101ua biomass in only half of the areas where stocks exist, so how can sensible limits be placed on catch in the areas where there are no estimates of that biomass? That can be done only by erring on the side of caution and by putting sustainability ahead of economics. For spiny dogfish there is so little information available that even the maximum constant yield cannot be estimated. Even for those fisheries where there is much more known, such as the tarakihi fishery, the data on which the maximum constant yield is based is, in some cases, over 20 years old. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe lack of information about fish stocks and their environments is all the more significant in current times. It is still unknown just how climate change will affect the marine environments. Will the increasing sea temperatures affect larval survival? Will inshore spawning beds be destroyed by the constant and increased sediment deposition that comes as a result of increased storm intensity over land, which increases soil erosion? Will currents and nutrient movement be affected by climate change? Will stocks and associated species be more susceptible to disease as a result of changes in temperature and other climate change impacts? How will the acidification of the oceans impact on the carbon shell - dependent species at the bottom of the food chain, and how will that, therefore, affect the fish stocks that rely on those small creatures as their source of food? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EHow will any of the changes that result from climate change affect the overall sustainability of marine ecosystems and fishing activity? We simply cannot afford to ignore these concerns. With climate change and the continued incessant overfishing in domestic and territorial waters, it is a fact that the state of the marine ecosystem is increasingly uncertain. The Green Party believes that the provisions of this bill are a small step, but a crucial one, to making sure that those potential effects are properly considered for the benefit of the sustainability of our marine environment for the future. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00221364f1151aca4a93bf0ad6d875340efb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221364f1151aca4a93bf0ad6d875340efb\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Government for allowing me this slot, because people will recognise that when this legislation was being debated on Tuesday night the New Zealand First speaker was Pita Paraone. The debate would have wound up, because there was only 1 minute to go, but he took that slot. Unfortunately he is on leave\u2014within the 25 percent, I might add. So the Government has given us this spot, because we believe that the Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill is very, very much in line with what New Zealand First is all about. It is certainly in line with our policy on where we believe our nation should be going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI have to admit to the House that I would describe myself as a very enthusiastic recreational fisherman, but I would not necessarily describe myself as a particularly successful one. I will give members one story. I fish out of Doubtless Bay up in the far north, and down in Ngunguru, out of Whangarei, and next to T\u016Bt\u016Bk\u0101k\u0101, but not all the way out to the Poor Knights Islands because that area is a reserve. One day along a beach up in the far north, my mate and I were collecting mussels off a mussel rock there and several groups of people further up the beach were collecting tuatuas. A four-wheel drive stopped and the driver was looking and looking. I have to say that for a moment when we came out of the sea we thought that maybe he was a fisheries officer, but we were well within our limit so we did not have anything to worry about. He was, in fact, an American, and he asked us what we were doing. We said we were getting the mussels off the rocks to eat. He asked if anybody was allowed to do that and we said, yes, that was available to all New Zealanders as long as they stayed within their limits. He asked what all the other people were doing along the beach. We said they were picking up tuatuas. He just could not get over the fact that New Zealanders were able to go out on to their coastline and collect a feed for themselves and their families with no interruptions, and that this was part of the New Zealand lifestyle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThat is what this bill is very, very much about. If I think in terms of Doubtless Bay\u2014and I go back to the 1970s there\u2014and look now at my successes in January, for example, at trying to get snapper, it would appear to me that the fish stock has dwindled. It may well be that the phenomenon we find up there is that for the couple of weeks after New Year the fishing is not particularly good, and then it gets good in the second half of the month. I remember that back in the 70s we were fishing in the latter part of January. In the bay at Ngunguru people have been saying that kahawai stocks are dwindling. Well, at times we look out from our window and see schools and boil-ups of kahawai that go halfway across the bay, so we really have to ask ourselves whether our stocks are dwindling\u2014are they the same or are they getting fewer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThat is what this bill is all about. New Zealand First believes that it is the birthright of all New Zealanders to be able to throw out a line and catch themselves a fish, to have access to kai moana, and to have that right for themselves and for their families. It is not the right to be able to rape and pillage, but to be able to catch fresh fish and enjoy them around the barbecue, out in the backyard, or wherever it might be, over certain periods of time. Members must admit that there is nothing better than a fresh snapper, for example, or a feed of fresh k\u016Btai. Therefore we, as a nation, have a responsibility to ensure that both our freshwater and our sea stocks of fish and other kai moana are maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe have put in place a strong system. Although I say it is a strong system, I tell members it is not a totally foolproof system. One of the problems with the Fisheries Act 1996 as it currently stands is that when the various sustainability measures are being decided upon, such as the total allowable catches and fishing method restrictions, the Act does not allow for a precautionary approach to be fully taken. So where there is an absence of information\u2014and let us face it: there is a lot of absence of information around our ecosystems\u2014rather than requiring the decision makers to take the fully precautionary approach so that they minimise risks, the Act actually does the other thing. In fact, it tells them to take risks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe problem with that is that in the absence, dearth, or weakness of information available, the wrong decision can be made. For example, when there was not full access to information about orange roughy, inadequate decisions were made about total allowable catches, and that was to the detriment of the fish stock. This bill changes the law so that if the full information is not available, then the decision makers will be able to act in a fully precautionary manner. New Zealand First believes that this is the way it should have been from 1996, and we are 100 percent behind this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe are not necessarily behind the shared fisheries proposals, and we are asking some questions about the problem there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d27c331447c473fa3885026cbb6d392\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to members that it is a longstanding convention that members should not conduct conversations in the House unless it is necessary to do so, and then so as not to disturb proceedings because it is distracting for the member who is trying to address the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f46fa64c0344aafade0a1a4720225f2\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: As I say, we in New Zealand First will defend to the end the right of recreational fishers to be able to have sustainable stocks, and to be able readily to obtain fish\u2014not necessarily in the manner in which it used to be done but certainly in an easy fashion. However, we are not absolutely convinced about the shared fisheries proposals, and we ask what the problem is. We fish in the snapper 1 area, and that has the smallest restrictions upon recreational fishers. I tell members here and now that I have not heard even one of the people who live up in Doubtless Bay complain that the restrictions are too great. The number of fish that is allowable\u2014nine snapper per fisher, for example\u2014is certainly adequate for the people who fish recreationally to be able to feed themselves and their families. So we ask what the problem is that the legislation may be trying to fix.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThis issue is a different issue altogether. This issue is something to do with setting the total allowable catch across customary fishers, M\u0101ori fishers, recreational fishers, and commercial fishers\u2014the total whole. We believe that decisions being made around that, if they are got wrong, will negatively affect all sectors\u2014the recreational sector, the commercial sector, the M\u0101ori sector, the customary sector\u2014the whole lot. Therefore, we believe that it makes eminently good sense to have legislation that requires the decision makers, in the absence of the full degree of information about the impact upon ecosystems, fish stocks, and stocks of seafood, to employ the precautionary approach, to its fullest measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThat, we believe, will enable my grandchildren, for example, to come out in the boat with me and have that thrill of catching a fish on a rod and line. They will be able to take the fish back to grandma and say: \u201CLook what I caught, grandma!\u201D. Grandad can fillet it for them and then they can enjoy the eating of it. That is the birthright of every New Zealander\u2014and every new New Zealander. As far as we in New Zealand First are concerned, we will do everything possible to protect that birthright. Therefore, we will support this bill through all its stages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022 data-id=\u00222f68391f65d4469a801a98ec6b6052b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f68391f65d4469a801a98ec6b6052b4\u0022\u003EDr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. In principle, the Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill sounds all very laudable. It is always sensible lawmaking to start off with the intention to clarify the law and to provide clearer direction. The bill is motivated by a concern that the existing wording of the Act fails to make it sufficiently clear that decision makers should not delay or avoid taking measures to ensure sustainability, even when the best information available is incomplete or deficient. The key buzzwords relate, as in the original 1996 Act, to providing for the utilisation of fisheries resources while ensuring sustainability. In focusing on sustainability, emphasis is given towards maintaining the potential of fisheries resources to meet the needs of our future generations, and towards avoiding, remedying, or mitigating any adverse effects of fishing on the aquatic environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn and of itself, making sustainability a priority in the way in which we manage ocean resources is commendable. We endorse the view of Greenpeace that making sustainability the priority and urging precaution as a principle is a move along the right track if we are to prevent the collapse of the ever-declining population of all major commercial fish species. But\u2014and it is a big but\u2014we in the M\u0101ori Party must always be aware of and watch out for fish-hooks and the potential for decay and destruction to occur. So we ask why the Government would need to intervene to assist the process of making fisheries management decisions. Would it have anything to do with the shared fisheries plans, on which, coincidentally, submissions closed the day before this bill had its first reading in the House? Why would a new item appear on the legislative agenda to assist decision makers to take measures even when the best available information is incomplete or otherwise deficient?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe bill provides even more explicit direction that even if information is \u201Cabsent or is uncertain, unreliable or inadequate\u201D, decision makers should not postpone or fail to take measures. I do not know what members think, but it sounds a bit Mickey Mouse to me. When else in this House are we asked to endorse a policy process in which we vote for decisions to be made even when information is absent, uncertain, unreliable, or inadequate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EThe approval for policy gaps and gaffes to be allowed becomes even more suspect when we consider the current context in which the Government is looking to trim back commercial fishing quotas in order to make available more fish for recreational fishers. This proposal has been met with widespread alarm by M\u0101ori fishers. Iwi have identified that the shared fisheries plan will conclude with their losing substantial value from their fishing assets. They are united in believing that the proposals undermine the integrity of the 1992 fisheries settlement. Te \u0100tiawa Trust released a statement on 11 February 2007, which stated: \u201CNot one iwi was in favour of this proposal, with some saying that legal action might be necessary.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIn the heat of such opposition, is it not interesting that new legislation is suddenly introduced, thus clearing the way for decisions to be made? It is not as though the Ministry of Fisheries has a particularly good record in terms of its capacity to relate to and consult with M\u0101ori. We have looked at the transcript of an interview on TV3 with the Minister of Fisheries on 9 February, in which the advice of M\u0101ori is described as \u201Chysterical and ridiculous\u201D. In fact, the Minister went even further, by responding to the comments of the Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee chief executive, Peter Douglas, with the following retort: \u201CGet a life. I mean that\u2019s ridiculous. These are private property rights. \u2026 I hear everyone screaming this at me. Do you think I don\u2019t understand that?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EIt is evident that the Minister and the ministry are under pressure, but does such a crisis situation require such drastic action as is proposed in the current bill? The M\u0101ori Party, like the M\u0101ori caucus of the Labour Party, met with a group of eminent iwi leaders last week, who were fuelled by the concerns they had about the current fishing policy. There were iwi leaders from Ng\u0101puhi, Ng\u0101i Tahu, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, Ng\u0101ti Porou, Tainui, Te Arawa waka, Ng\u0101ti Awa, and many others. Also attending were representatives of other M\u0101ori fishing interests, including Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd and Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee. It is always a privilege to be in the company of such a prestigious group of leaders. These people are our iwi leaders. They spoke to us of their fear that the Government would increase recreational quotas by reducing commercial quotas. So we come to this bill with that advice ringing in our ears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe come also to the Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill recognising the united concerns of those representatives, who dismiss the criticism of M\u0101ori interests as being hysterical and not helpful. A release issued the next day had this to say: \u201CWe\u2019re not being hysterical over this issue, we\u2019re being historical. The Maori fisheries agreement with the Crown settled historical grievances and [yet] the proposals put forward by the Ministry clearly undermine that agreement.\u201D When I raised the matter on Tuesday in the appropriations debate, the Minister of Fisheries was in complete denial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe have to acknowledge the expertise and institutional experience of M\u0101ori fishers and value the advice they have to offer regarding fisheries management decisions. Their cautionary comments alert us to any fish-hooks legislated for by amendments such as those proposed today. They alert us to any changes that serve to threaten or endanger M\u0101ori fishing rights. We note, for instance, that in the new Shared Fisheries document the business and activity of M\u0101ori fishing has seen the interpretation of customary fishing reduced to non-commercial rights, to the exclusion of commercial customary rights. This demonstrates an absolute ignorance of the fact that M\u0101ori, since time immemorial, have been involved in both commercial and non-commercial activities. This new definition of customary fishing is totally in breach of the official deed of settlement to M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003EWe will be opposing this bill on three counts. Firstly, we cannot support the proposal that decisions should be made even though information is absent, uncertain, unreliable, or inadequate. Secondly, according to the M\u0101ori tribal leaders themselves the Ministry of Fisheries has demonstrated its inability to relate to, and have meaningful consultation with, M\u0101ori\u2014despite the Minister\u2019s claims about consultation. On that basis alone, it would be difficult for us to support this bill. Thirdly, the recent activity associated with the shared fisheries proposals has alerted us to the possibility of the fish-hooks that could serve to entrap and ensnare those involved in M\u0101ori fishing rights. It is as a consequence of these issues that we will today register our opposition to the Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u00222f9f1f0e9bba427d889954d151e8d218\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f9f1f0e9bba427d889954d151e8d218\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Aleikum salaam. I rise to take a brief call in support of the Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill. This movement of sustainability, which is the catchcry of the world nowadays, started 20 or 30 years ago. It all started in New Zealand with, if you like, the introduction of the Resource Management Act. The whole idea is to make sure that we manage and utilise the resources that we have inherited from our forefathers, and make sure there is enough left for our children and grandchildren to enjoy. Sustainability is pretty much akin to all the resource management legislation that we have in place. We are now talking about the aspiration to carbon neutrality and making sure that the land, the air, the sea, and the forests\u2014all the resources that we have\u2014are managed and utilised in a way that maintains them for future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003ENormally we have been talking about GDP, which is basically talking about things in dollar terms. We talk about trying to have economic gains from various national resources, and as the world moves towards some kind of genuine progress indicator we have to make sure that environmental and social issues are taken into account as we move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EThis bill about fisheries is in the same vein as the cautionary approach we take to the resources of land and air to protect them. This bill is all about protecting fisheries for the longer-term use by our future generations, and this precautionary approach is to make sure there is enough fish for future generations to enjoy. In the longer term, sustainability and utilisation as I see it, and I have done a lot of research into some of these sustainability issues, are really compatible. On the one hand we say that farmers have to make money to survive, which I totally agree with, but on the other hand we say that long-term sustainability and long-term enjoyment of these natural resources are important and we must look after them. In terms of the fish stock in the sea, we have to make sure that we fish in such a way that enough is left for the long term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EI had the opportunity last week to go on a trip with the seafood industry, and it was fascinating to see some of the aquaculture areas that are being developed up in the Hauraki Gulf. It was nice to see a large area now brought under aquaculture, to grow fish for export purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EI support the bill, which is clearly designed to remove any ambiguity in the current Act and to make sure that future decisions allow for sustainability in the longer term. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022667697bb207248d7820ee2f2283e81d3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 115\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; United Future 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002262b7578ee2eb4f21a1465ca5065b0114\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262b7578ee2eb4f21a1465ca5065b0114\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Fisheries: I move, That the Fisheries Act 1996 Amendment Bill be referred to the Primary Production Committee and that it be an instruction to the committee that the bill be reported to the House by 12 June 2007, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area during a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 192, 194(a), and 195(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec07674f48c840e0930b927331a58331\u0022\u003EArmed Forces Law Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002277794d27ec86444a8f220b036aaf4004\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002256cd437d8eec4c2ba1e861b5841bb844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256cd437d8eec4c2ba1e861b5841bb844\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Armed Forces Law Reform Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. The purpose of this bill is to establish an effective and fair system of military justice. Our current system is governed by the Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971, which came into effect on 1 December 1983. Attitudes and the environment have changed considerably since that time. Community expectations and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 have both highlighted and expanded the rights that need to be observed. As a matter of principle the Government believes that the military justice system today should apply to our armed forces personnel the same rights enjoyed by civilians in the criminal justice system, to the greatest extent possible consistent with the efficient and disciplined operation of the armed forces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EChanges are also required to bring our military justice system into line with the 2001 defence statement entitled A Modern, Sustainable Defence Force Matched to New Zealand\u2019s Needs. This states that a joint approach to structure and operational orientation should be a key component of the Defence Force. Some parts of the military justice system today are not common to all three services. This hinders the proper exercise of joint command and is an unnecessary complication. Acknowledging the need to respond to a changed environment, the Defence Force undertook a review between 2002 and 2006 to assess what reforms needed to be made. This review took into account New Zealand\u2019s international obligations. It also looked at the experience of other States such as Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom, which have gone through a similar process in recent times. The review included substantial consultation within military and legal communities, and this bill is the product of that review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe two principal components of the military justice system are summary discipline and courts martial. Summary discipline deals with more minor charges heard by a commander in a unit. Currently the Armed Forces Discipline Act provides for two systems of summary discipline, one for the Navy, and another for the Army and the Air Force. This is not consistent with the joint orientation that has now been adopted by the Defence Force. This bill provides for a common system of summary discipline for the armed forces that complies with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and combines the best elements of the two current systems. The bill will simplify processes and produce efficiencies consistent with the expeditious administration of summary discipline without compromising fairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAt present the convictions and sentences of courts martial are reviewed by the Board of Review, which has the power to quash convictions and vary sentences. This bill will abolish the Board of Review, replacing it with enhanced rights of appeal to the Courts Martial Appeal Court. The Judge Advocate General\u2019s supervisory role in respect of the military justice system will be preserved by expanding his or her power to refer cases to the Courts Martial Appeal Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EOne of the principles that underpins many of the reforms in this bill is that the processes of the ordinary criminal law should be the benchmark for military law unless there are sound reasons arising from the nature of the armed forces that dictate otherwise. The bill, for example, aligns the grounds for appealing to the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court from a decision of the Courts Martial Appeal Court with those that apply to criminal appeals from the High Court. Another example is the authorisation of an equivalent to the police detention legal assistance scheme for the benefit of service members who are being questioned by the service authorities in connection with a suspected offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn assessing whether the special nature of the armed forces requires a departure from the processes of the ordinary criminal law, the review conducted by the Defence Force focused on what are generally agreed to be the seven vital elements of the military justice system. These are the maintenance of discipline, consistency in all strategic environments, portability, expedition, fairness, efficiency, and simplicity. This bill represents a significant advance for the New Zealand armed forces in respect of those vital elements, as well as improving the compliance with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. I have had the chance, I think, to consult with almost all parties in the House on this legislation. This ought not to be a controversial piece of legislation and I believe that it will attract support from all sides of the House. I certainly commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00225172a972d4fe40a9a80ed271dad2c157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225172a972d4fe40a9a80ed271dad2c157\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E National will be supporting this bill going to a select committee. We do note that the Minister did brief the National Party and other parties in the House. Yes, it is true that our system of military justice does need modernisation, but it is important to highlight a fundamental point. The actual military offences are not being changed by this legislation. What is being changed are the procedures\u2014how those offences are in fact tried. The changes are largely around what we might loosely call the superior jurisdiction\u2014the courts martial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere are some details in that that I want to bring to the House\u2019s attention. As, I am sure, there will be members in this House who perhaps have suffered the impost of summary jurisdiction of their units\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223abe68d58a104739bf407633636246e0\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: And dealt it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff135fbd56d242ec881d5c096b3a92ec\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and dealt it out, so we hear\u2014I shall mention that that part of the procedure will not really be changing, in fact. I do note that there are two colleagues at least in the House who have served in the role of presiding officers in the summary jurisdiction, and I would also have to put on record, I guess\u2014as the member volunteered it by interjection\u2014that Major Ron Mark was also a recipient of that jurisdiction, perhaps as a private soldier. It clearly did not inhibit his rise through the ranks thereafter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThat having been said, I will now move to the issue of courts martial, because this is a significant change. Under the existing system, we essentially have a panel of military officers who try the accused. There is no jury or anything of that nature, and the legally qualified person\u2014frequently not a serving officer\u2014is acting merely in an advisory role. At least, that is the theory. Those members who have seen the film A Few Good Men will note that in other jurisdictions such as the United States it is done quite differently. There it looks more like a civil trial, with a judge sitting in jurisdiction exercising a legal approach to the trial. That is the major change that will be brought about by this legislation, and I think it is a good one. When people are facing the prospect of imprisonment\u2014and there have been many courts martial in New Zealand, including those in recent years, where people have been sentenced to imprisonment\u2014there should be a legal process and all legal niceties should be observed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOne thing I also want to bring to the House\u2019s attention is what I think is quite a significant change. There is now established a Director of Military Prosecutions. This person, who will almost certainly be a serving officer, will be appointed by the Governor-General. Most probably that person will be the director-general of the legal service, currently a brigadier in the New Zealand Army. The interesting point\u2014and we will be exploring this issue in the select committee\u2014is that that person will be under the supervision of the Solicitor-General and will be immune from command of the Chief of Defence Force. Members should note that point. A serving military officer will not be accountable for this particular purpose\u2014that of Director of Military Prosecutions\u2014to the normal chain of command. The responsibility is actually to the Crown Law Office, which is headed by the Solicitor-General\u2014and that person has the power to stay proceedings under military law. So this is quite a substantial change, and that particular person will have substantially more autonomy and independence than any other officer in the New Zealand Defence Force. The Minister just glossed over that and did not make much of it, but I suggest that that is a very significant change. We will be wanting to explore that change in the select committee in order to understand the significance of it. I am told that it is the case in the United Kingdom and in Canada, so I will want to see how it is working out in practice in those jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ENational is supporting the bill, but we should not pretend that these are minor changes. They are substantial changes. By and large, I suggest that they are actually changes for the good. They do modernise our system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI just want to bring the attention of the House to this additional fact. Some years ago\u2014about a decade\u2014there were only about three or four legal officers across the Defence Force. Typically, there was one in each of the services, plus a director. Today there are 28, which is a change in the space of just 10 years, and virtually every deployment overseas includes a legal officer. Is that not an interesting change? No doubt people have it in their minds that that is OK. They guess that when people in the services go out on patrol, they have to go and talk to the legal officer to work out the rules of engagement and so forth, and that if they happen to fire their weapons, they will be interviewed by the legal officer in the field. People might suppose that there will be a report going back to the Director of Military Prosecutions, who is reporting to the Solicitor-General. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe have to ask ourselves whether this helps or hinders the conduct of contemporary operations. By and large, I think that it probably helps, though perhaps not in the way that I have described, because I recognise that contemporary operations and their interaction with humanitarian law, which is a much greater plethora of conventions and custom law, and much greater interaction with civil reconstruction\u2014rebuilding societies\u2014do have a significant legal dimension to them. It is not like military conflicts of the past. So things are done differently, and properly so. These, nevertheless, are very big changes. Four legal officers to 28 in the space of a decade is a change in the culture and in the way the Defence Force now conducts its contemporary operations internationally and, indeed, locally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESo National does support the bill. I personally see it as an overdue modernisation to our military law, but it does raise significant questions, which I trust that the select committee\u2014under the chair of Dianne Yates\u2014will be able to explore properly, because what they really say is that contemporary military operations are different from the military operations of the past that are so well known to many members in this House and to their predecessors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u00229c2dc452818142ddb64571670ba9fed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c2dc452818142ddb64571670ba9fed9\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome the introduction of the Armed Forces Law Reform Bill. As the previous speaker said, we look forward to its coming to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. It is a bill about the modernisation of the law of the armed forces. I must say that a good deal of preparation has gone into this bill. It is one of the best pieces of legislation I have seen. The explanatory note is extremely good. Not only does it talk about the policy statement but also it outlines the public policy objectives, discusses the analysis of the clauses, and outlines the consultation processes. As I have said, this bill is one of the best pieces of legislation I have seen come before this House. It is a doorstopper. It is a really thick bill, and it will take the select committee a good time to work through it. But the bill is excellent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI refer members to the explanatory note. The general policy statement states: \u201CAn effective and fair military justice system is essential to the maintenance of discipline in the Armed Forces in peace and war, whether in New Zealand or overseas.\u201D It does state that there has been no substantial reform of the military justice system since 1983\u2014as both the Minister of Defence and the member opposite have said, and the National Party has agreed. This reform comes about through domestic and international developments in human rights\u2014and the Minister has mentioned those in Australia and Canada\u2014and it comes from a review conducted by the New Zealand Defence Force, which recommended a large number of reforms. Those reforms are reflected in the bill, which will amend\u2014as has been said\u2014the Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971, the Courts Martial Appeals Act 1953, and the Defence Act 1990. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThe general policy statement then talks about the amendments that the bill makes. It states: \u201Cthe Bill will make a number of miscellaneous reforms to military law that will\u2014improve the compliance with commonly understood principles of justice \u2026 close gaps in the application of military law \u2026\u201D\u2014and Dr Mapp has just outlined some of those\u2014\u201C\u2026 and produce a modern military justice system\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI also refer to the part of the explanatory note that talks about the public policy objectives: \u201CThe objectives of this proposal are to reform New Zealand\u2019s military justice system to\u2014improve its consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990; and maintain or improve its delivery of the following vital elements:\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd02138f6bb49088bab08300c669db3\u0022\u003EJohn Hayes\u003C/span\u003E: We can read.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecc821edd2bb409f8562577d01bda239\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES\u003C/span\u003E: I remind Mr Hayes that he has an opportunity for a 10-minute speech when I finish\u2014\u201Cfocus on the maintenance of discipline: consistency in all strategic environments:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note then goes on to say something that I think is really interesting and that has not been mentioned, which is that there will be a small increase in legal aid costs associated with the granting of legal aid to suspects, and that that will be met from within existing baselines. With regard to most bills that come before a select committee, we ask how much the provisions of the legislation will cost\u2014what the extra expense is. In the extensive amount of planning that has gone into this bill, I think a lot of the questions that a select committee might ask have already been answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThere has been consultation with the Chief Justice, the President of the Court of Appeal, the Judge Advocate General, members of the panel of Judge Advocates, members of the panel of courts martial counsel, the New Zealand Law Society and\u2014I am sure Dr Worth will be interested in this\u2014the Armed Forces Law Association of New Zealand. The New Zealand Defence Force intranet site has provided all members of the New Zealand Defence Force with information about the review of the military justice system and the opportunity to comment. We have a list in the explanatory note of the stakeholders and the consultation process that has been gone into. Finally, it talks about the Government departments and agencies that have been consulted: Treasury, the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Justice, the Crown Law Office, and the Parliamentary Counsel Office. There have been a number of meetings between the New Zealand Defence Force and both the Ministry of Justice and the Crown Law Office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAs one of my colleagues has said, many of us have been impressed with the process that has been gone through. I recommend that those who are interested in legislation\u2014and those who are drafting future legislation\u2014take a good look at the explanatory note of this bill and at the actual structure of the bill itself. I am sure the select committee is looking forward to undertaking a closer examination of its content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002295b41c7f874a493592ff3c7fef6d42ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295b41c7f874a493592ff3c7fef6d42ab\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Dr Mapp has explained in an exemplary way the ramifications of this legislation and its impact on the current law. As he has said, National supports this Armed Forces Law Reform Bill for passage. It is a commonplace to say that an effective and fair military justice system is essential to the maintenance of discipline in the armed forces in peace and war, whether in New Zealand or overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThis legislation stands clearly in need of amendment. It is interesting that the legislation being amended\u2014the principal Act\u2014is the Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971. But it took that legislation 12 years to come into force. I am not sure that we would tolerate that in the Parliament of 2007. That was a 12-year gap between the enactment of the legislation and its coming into force. We just do not see those unacceptable time frames. The reason for that, in substantial measure, was that it was necessary for armed forces rules of procedure to be enacted. Prior to the Armed Forces Discipline Act, there was a Navy Act, New Zealand Army Act, and Royal New Zealand Air Force Act. They all had quite different rules, and incidentally they all had quite different traditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the course of my military experience I had the privilege\u2014fortunately not of being a victim of the court martial setting\u2014of taking part in courts martial in a number of roles. In particular, I had a role in navy courts martial\u2014the service I was associated with. Where the court martial involved the trial of an officer, a sword was placed in front of the accused. That sword lay parallel to the place where the accused officer was seated or standing. The court retired to consider its verdict, and when it came back to pronounce its verdict in open court, the accused officer could look to see which way the sword was pointing. If the sword was pointing towards him or her\u2014but it was always him in those days\u2014then he knew that he would be convicted by the particular court. Those were the elements of drama that were injected into the courts martial of those days. It was somewhat akin, as more experienced members of the House may recall, to that television programme called Branded, where the sword of a Confederate Army officer who had crossed the line of military discipline was broken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere were other aspects of courts martial in those days that were also of some interest. One good practice was that when the court retired to consider its verdict and was in a position to deliberate on what the outcome would be, it was always the junior officer in the court of three\u2014or, perhaps, five\u2014officers who was asked to say what he felt and whether he felt the accused was guilty or not guilty. The reason behind that tradition was so that a junior officer would not be affected by the views of his seniors as to what would be the appropriate political response to make in respect of a determination in a criminal setting. It is also right to say that there was a degree of cynicism about those court martial processes in those days\u2014somewhat akin to the Alice in Wonderland statement of sentence first, verdict afterwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe are not seeing in this legislation significant, substantive change, but we are seeing some change, which I believe\u2014echoing Dr Mapp\u2019s comments\u2014to be worthwhile and of merit. There are still significant differences between military justice and the justice meted out in the civilian courts sitting in their criminal jurisdiction. Much higher standards are expected of military personnel than those people outside the military who cross the line and commit criminal offences. Nothing in this legislation will detract from that higher standard required of those who serve this country in a military setting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe comment has been made about the number of lawyers in the military. That is truly a striking change. To some extent I am not supportive of that change, but it is the reality that this Government has significantly moved our focus of military activity not from war fighting but to peacemaking. In that peacemaking context the provision of legal advice becomes quite critical. In a war fighting setting those issues do not bear time for reflection. I commend this legislation to the House. I think it is appropriate that it be enacted without delay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3f9ae4320f44d7cbcc7abc83f90a30d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3f9ae4320f44d7cbcc7abc83f90a30d\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I found it very interesting to listen to Dr Worth, who actually made me reflect somewhat on what I was going to say. I will follow on from the interesting summation he has given, because it really highlights to me what is different about the military, and what is different about ordinary people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESome of Dr Worth\u2019s recounting of the courts martial, and of the procedures that used to exist, reminds me even more broadly of the customs of the service and the expectations placed on military people that stand far and above the expectations placed on ordinary citizens of this nation. These expectations are put upon military people for very good reasons. There is an honour code, and there are expectations such as what one will or will not do. There are consequences from bringing the military into disrepute through conduct to the prejudice of good military order and discipline, and there are ranges of charges that can be brought against someone under that simple charge. In my day those charges came under section 61, and most young men and women who were undergoing recruitment training fell victim to that at some stage for misdemeanours such as dirty boots, twisted boot laces, not shaving, scruffy hair\u2014all of which was considered to be conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ETo those who were subjected to the first few torrid weeks of the military world, it could be quite daunting to find themselves being marched up at 110 paces to the minute, to be stood rigidly to attention in front of the officer in charge of a company with their headdress removed, to have the charges read out, and to be given a few split seconds or minutes to attempt to justify or refute the charges, which might be brought against them as a private by a lance corporal\u2014who himself might look as if he has barely learnt to shave. It could be daunting for a private to be given a punishment and summarily marched straight out of the door, to be put to work to complete one\u2019s sentence\u2014after-hours, generally, in one\u2019s own time. In those times and in those days, there was not so much as a snowball\u2019s chance in hell of redressing what one thought to be a wrong. A few of us, on the odd occasion, took it upon ourselves as junior recruits to challenge the orderly room procedures, and we were astonished to find that our punishments had doubled as a consequence. So one learnt pretty quickly to shut one\u2019s mouth, take one\u2019s punishment, get on with it, and demonstrate that one was a man and would accept the consequences of one\u2019s own transgressions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe customs of the service, which are embodied in military discipline and the processes that underpin the Armed Forces Discipline Act, are important. There have been differences between the army and the navy, for some very good reasons. Some of it is customary. Some of it is outdated now, such as the custom that the navy has of not drawing its sword, of carrying its sword \u201Cat the trail\u201D\u2014that is the correct term. In days gone by under Queen Victoria, I think it was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8ab1fa24ff04709b9aeeded7cb4ffbb\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: King Charles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a066c7bc1d97416f96102d91e6e653fe\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: King Charles. The navy lost the privilege of its officers drawing their swords in the presence of the monarch, because they had mutinied. That was the punishment meted out to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ETraditionally, the artillery had to suffer the similar indignity of seeing the transport corps being accorded the right to wear artillery officers\u2019 uniforms and to carry artillery officers\u2019 swords. Why was that? It was because at a certain battle\u2014I think in the Crimea\u2014a withdrawing transport unit came upon a battery of guns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228cac36dd9f34fa18d3f8c25563b1b0d\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Abandoned, no less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229185fc8f41f84b1fa2bd4ed7e9875b86\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: They were abandoned, as Dr Mapp has just pointed out. They were abandoned, and that is an ultimate sin because the guns are the colours. For one to abandon one\u2019s colours is an ultimate sin, and the punishment that was meted out to the artillery was for them to see one of their privileges and rights accorded to the corps that actually recovered those guns and brought them back in safely so they could be used again. An act of dishonour resulted in an act of honour being attributed to another unit, and that still carries to this very day. Historically, the differences between the army and the navy have been there for some very sound reasons. But society and the military have moved on, and some of the things that were applicable then, in terms of the Armed Forces Discipline Act, are no longer applicable today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDr Worth mentioned the fact that he believes the reason we now have so many lawyers in the military and deployed on operations is because this Government has us involved in only peacekeeping operations, not war. Well, the fact is these days New Zealand rarely deploys purely for the purpose of making war\u2014in fact, we do not. Internationally, most of our friends and allies are involved in peacekeeping and peacemaking operations, and that is a far more complex environment to be working in. The international consequences of a private soldier getting it wrong are considerably greater than they ever were in the First World War, the Crimean War, the Boer War, or the Second World War. These amendments take note and give cognisance to those realities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI will not go back through and reiterate everything that the previous speakers, Dr Mapp, Dr Worth, the Minister Phil Goff, and Dianne Yates have gone through, but there are some things that are worthy of note. It is worthy of noting that the Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971 came into force in 1983. I joined the army in 1971 and was subject to the Armed Forces Discipline Act at that stage. It seems a long time ago that I was standing to attention in front of my company commander being confined to barracks for misdemeanours. Some years later in 1978, as an officer I was instructed, as part of my training, in the running of orderly rooms and the powers that subordinate commanders have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESome time later, I had the opportunity to cross swords with an officer commanding, which resulted in my being fronted up as a junior officer\u2014second in command of a unit\u2014on a charge. It occurred to me then that there was no way in heck I was going to take the punishment of the commanding officer, so I opted for a court martial. I did so because I knew straight away that it was by means of a court martial that one could get a fairer hearing, and that natural justice would be more likely to be played out, and as a result\u2014just for the curiosity of members\u2014they promptly changed their minds and ordered a court of inquiry, which gave me the opportunity to cross-examine my accuser. All charges were dismissed. It did not do the accuser\u2019s career much good beyond that, because he was the one who ended up with a reprimand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat is pleasing about this bill is that the laws of natural justice and the Human Rights Act are written into this with a far higher degree of compliance than has ever been the case before\u2014and section 24 and section 25A reflect that. The \u201CSeven Samurai\u201D\u2014as often referred to by the military legal fraternity\u2014and the focus on the maintenance of discipline are absolutely essential, and they are retained. The consistency in all strategic environments, given the fact that our troops are deployed to places like East Timor, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Iraq, and Bougainville, is absolutely essential. Portability is important, because our troops serve everywhere. Expeditiousness so that justice can be swift is important\u2014and I only wish that was the case with the police force and the way in which it deals with its people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EFairness, efficiency, and simplicity\u2014I could talk about some of the things I observed in the way in which military justice was meted out in my 20 years in the military. Some of it I find still sticks in my throat to this very day. But I know there will be plenty of time for an opportunity to discuss those issues as this bill makes its way through the select committee and it comes back for the second reading. I hope that some of the things I witnessed in my time as a junior officer will never ever be able to be played out again, because this bill will clearly take care of what I consider to be anomalies that are well past their use-by date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022a60875fb1e1d496793446a3faad6acde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a60875fb1e1d496793446a3faad6acde\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting the Armed Forces Law Reform Bill going to the select committee. The bill updates the systems of military justice in what seems to be the correct direction, allowing more due process to apply. It makes sure that courts martial, which the previous speaker, Ron Mark, referred to, are done in the proper manner, with the right to call witnesses, and the right to present one\u2019s defence properly if one is subject to a court martial, paralleling the civilian system of justice as much as possible. Of course, within the military system there are some more summary levels of justice, where the superior officer is the prosecutor, the judge, and the jury, and gives the sentence. But I think our system will now have more protections in it than it had previously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the motivations in updating these procedures is partly to be in line with overseas jurisdictions and partly because of a greater sense of fairness we have in our society now with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act; also, it is about being more aware of the need for due process in all aspects of society. There is also the reality of the Defence Force operating in an environment of relatively low unemployment and finding it quite difficult to get people to join up, and, when they have joined up, to retain them for any length of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the problems, of course, is that it is difficult for people who join the armed forces to have to be away overseas, sometimes for quite a while\u2014for example, on a mission such as in East Timor or on one of the ships for months at a time\u2014because it creates difficulties for family life. So the Defence Force has to have good systems of pay and conditions\u2014and, in this respect, good processes of justice\u2014so that people do not feel they are hard-done-by and leave the armed services for those reasons. The bill reflects a good, modernising pressure from society on the armed forces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe can compare ourselves with overseas forces and learn from them, but we can also learn some negative things from overseas. Historically, great injustices have been perpetrated against our Defence Force people. In the past this House has debated the unjust executions of New Zealand personnel in the First World War, and we have had bills before this Parliament rectifying those injustices. A former member for Invercargill, Mark Peck, put a lot of effort into that area during his time in Parliament. So I think we are recognising here that we need proper systems of discipline that will allow for fairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn those historic World War One trials United Kingdom officers were the ones conducting disciplinary proceedings and getting it wrong, and some of our soldiers were wrongly executed. The United Kingdom system today is not perfect. I refer to another, more recent, case in which the discipline of the United Kingdom armed forces detrimentally affected a New Zealander. That was the case of Malcolm Kendall-Smith, who was a member of the British armed forces. He refused to return to serve in Iraq and was court-martialled on the basis of refusing a lawful order. The trial was not done according to the procedures we would consider just. His main defence was that the US and British occupation of Iraq was illegal in international law\u2014and I think that can be clearly established\u2014but the judge in the trial said that the only thing he was going to take into account was whether Malcolm Kendell-Smith had obeyed a legal order, or what he determined to be the legality of the order. He did not look at the case in terms of the background of the illegality or otherwise of the occupation of Iraq. He refused to consider that as part of the case. That is something we would not want to imitate here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe bill refers briefly to prisoners of war. The legislation this bill is amending states that prisoners of war are subject to the disciplinary proceeding outlined in that legislation. That is something we are very much cognisant of these days, in terms of the situation with Guant\u00E1namo Bay, in particular, with the mistreatment of prisoners of war by the United States and the illegal rendition of prisoners, taken in places like Afghanistan and elsewhere, to third countries where they are tortured. Egypt, Syria, and Jordan are countries to which people have been rendered by the United States and subsequently tortured. Horrific cases came out of that. It is important that we get it right in terms of our treatment of prisoners of war, including the prisoners of war that New Zealand troops capture in Afghanistan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Defence, Phil Goff, admitted recently that the SAS unit in Afghanistan a few years ago did take prisoners of war and pass them over to the US-led forces, and they may well have been rendered to torture in a third country. We still have no guarantee that that did not happen. So the issue is very much alive for us. It is disappointing that the Minister of Defence will not even accept that the people captured in the conflict in Afghanistan have prisoner of war status. If it is not accepted, then it means that those people would not be subject to the procedures of this legislation. We could get into the difficult position potentially of even New Zealand citizens being subject to mistreatment in the way that an Australian citizen, David Hicks, has been mistreated. He has been kept 5 years in horrible conditions and, in effect, been tortured over that time. He is yet to be brought before a justice system\u2014even a military justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe military tribunals set up by the United States have been widely criticised for not allowing a full application of justice. In the case of David Hicks, the charge against him\u2014something to the effect that he supported the enemy or associated with the people on the other side\u2014would not in the Australian or New Zealand jurisdictions be considered a crime; it would be more a question of a prisoner of war status. That is where we have to be very aware of what we do in terms of military law. How we apply international law to military law and connect the two is very important, because we do not want to end up in the situation of the United Kingdom where military justice is not applied in the broader sense; or of the United States, where military tribunals have been subject to wide criticism; or of Australia under John Howard, where he will not even defend the rights of an Australian citizen, David Hicks, to proper treatment. John Howard has been rightly condemned, in Australia from across the board, for not standing up for justice\u2014for not standing up for David Hicks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing that our Prime Minister, when she goes off to America next week, will not be bringing up with George Bush the cases of the rights of people who have been captured or seized by the Americans and mistreated in Guant\u00E1namo Bay, and elsewhere\u2014being rendered to third countries for torture. She effectively said in response to a question of mine yesterday that if she were the British Prime Minister, or the Australian Prime Minister, and if we had our citizens in Guant\u00E1namo Bay, then it would be relevant to take up the issues, but because New Zealand does not have people in that situation we should not bother about it. Yet Guant\u00E1namo Bay is something that has to engage\u2014and does engage\u2014the international community. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and all of those international organisations that have supporters and members in New Zealand have taken up the case of people being mistreated by the American justice system, or \u201Cinjustice system\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe should do likewise, and I do appeal at this late stage to Helen Clark that when she goes to Washington she should please not forget human rights. She talks about human rights in Zimbabwe\u2014rightly\u2014as she did the other day in criticising the latest arrest by the Zimbabwe regime of the leaders of the democracy movement. I ask the Prime Minister not to be inconsistent. If it is OK for New Zealand to advocate and speak out for human rights in Zimbabwe, it is right to speak truth to the superpower and support human rights there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u00224fa6b65e1bde4961a7a6ec564dddde4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fa6b65e1bde4961a7a6ec564dddde4f\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou. At the centre of this bill is the assertion that an effective and a fair military justice service is essential in peace and war. The same associations between hope and despair, discipline and punishment, and justice and violence have been played out, as we know, in Parliament over the last 24 hours. That made me think about how those dichotomies are played out in the system of military law\u2014and the context of human rights, which Mr Locke has just talked about\u2014for those employed in the naval, armed, and air forces. In talking about the armed forces, members need to know that I never heard any of my uncles, my koroua, and my cousins who went to war say they were proud they had killed someone. Rather, they disliked war and its effects, both on those with whom they were in conflict and combat and on the civilian population, including women and children. Those same relations of mine talked about the injustices they saw in the heat of battle. They said, however, that discipline had to be maintained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo I come to this bill thinking about the context of justice, of discipline, and of human rights, and in doing so I understand that the connection between human rights and warfare can be tracked back to our very origins as a country. Six years into the birth of the nation, in 1846, the first armed regular force of the settler Government was raised. Its focus was \u201Cto preserve the peace\u201D. Twenty years later that commitment to peace was tested in Taranaki, and the place of its failure became the scene for prolonged combat and the site for two major wars. There ensued a remarkable history of passive resistance, as we know, at Parihaka on the one side, and the playing out of violence, rape, and retribution on the other side. Land confiscation and peppercorn rentals for M\u0101ori land were the price of so-called civil disobedience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThat history that sets the scene for the operations of the military justice system in Aotearoa. As the Waitangi Tribunal commented in 1996: \u201Cthe initial military action against Maori was an unlawful attack by armed forces of the Government on Maori subjects\u201D. Further, it said: \u201CIf war is the absence of peace, the war has never ended in Taranaki\u201D. Those beginnings of our military justice system influence our discussion today, as we look to create a new and more just military justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHaving lived for many years in Taranaki, and having a wife of Taranaki descent, I am only too familiar with the catastrophic and long-lasting effects of the armed forces\u2019 unlawful attacks on Taranaki M\u0101ori. In the decade of the 1860s there was no such luxury as the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act to build on. In a war waged by the country on its M\u0101ori citizens in the interests of its settler citizens, the question of whether the military system was effective and fair, with regard to the brutalities that occurred, was never raised or addressed. That history on which this nation is based, a history of unlawful and violent attack on M\u0101ori subjects, is a very compelling rationale for why we should support a reform of the military justice system in line with developments in human rights laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut other factors have also convinced us of the significance of this legislation. We know of the strong representation of M\u0101ori in the Army and Navy, but there is an under-representation of M\u0101ori at officer level across the board. In terms of real numbers, that equates to a massive 1,104 M\u0101ori in the Army, just 66 of whom have reached the rank of officer. There are 162 M\u0101ori in the Air Force, 16 of whom are officers. There are 462 M\u0101ori in the Navy, and, again, a mere 17 have officer status. So when one in four in those services are tangata whenua, and when there appears to be a glass ceiling operating, it is only appropriate that the M\u0101ori Party takes up the issue of M\u0101ori representation in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAnother issue that has arisen in our reading of this bill is one that is a prevailing concern for the M\u0101ori Party\u2014that is, due access to justice. In August 1999 the then Chief of General Staff, Maurice Dodson, said he was concerned about slipping standards of behaviour occurring in the armed forces: \u201CRecent events at Linton and in other camps have caused me serious concern about the current standards of discipline. There are disturbing trends emerging \u2026 offences involving dishonesty, morality and those of a sexual nature are becoming more prevalent within the army. These types of offences would not be tolerated.\u201D The opportunity to promote basic human rights, and the entitlement that fairness and justice be extended to the employees of the armed forces as much as to civilians, must be uppermost in the reform of the military justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E But it is not just a matter of being consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and international instruments. The issue is also about the promotion of essential values, such as manaakitanga, and the aspiration to promote a fair and just society, to work for the elimination of poverty and injustice, and to create an environment where collective care and responsibility are important. In terms of indigenous justice, such a kaupapa of collective responsibility is articulated worldwide\u2014for instance, in the United Nations Draft Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. Article 28 of that declaration states: \u201CMilitary activities shall not take place in the lands or territories of indigenous peoples, unless justified by a significant threat to relevant public interest or otherwise freely agreed with or requested by the indigenous peoples concerned. \u2026 States shall undertake effective consultations with the indigenous peoples concerned \u2026 prior to using their lands or territories for military activities.\u201D That is another part of the puzzle in understanding the rationale for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe objective of this bill is to improve the system in order to achieve, amongst other things, consistency, fairness, and simplicity. Was it fair that the Muriwhenua people had their lands appropriated in 1941 for the purposes of building an aerodrome at Kait\u0101ia? The return of that land is still under negotiation in the Waitangi Tribunal. Was it fair that land taken at Raglan for an emergency aerodrome was never returned to its people when it was no longer going to be used as an airfield in 1953? Twenty-five hectares by Raglan harbour were taken by the Crown for defence purposes during the Second World War and later converted into a golf course. It was not until 1978, and subsequent to the arrests of 17 people, that the land was returned, finally, to the people of Tainui \u0100whiro. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to refer to the issue of court martial dismissals, referred to by Mr Mark, that occurred in the armed forces and are referred to in this bill. In 2003-04 the Army made 33 court martial dismissals, the Navy discharged five people, and the Air Force dismissed four. We would be interested in learning the ethnic breakdown of those dismissed, and we hope that information will be available to the select committee. The regulatory impact statement for the bill suggests that approximately 10 courts martial are held per year. In view of that, we look to the Minister to provide a rationale to explain the blip that obviously occurred when 42 court martial dismissals occurred in the 2003-04 year. We know that for those 42 individuals, the convening officer of the court martial system was a member of the executive, was responsible for the prosecution, and indeed, appointed all of the court members. We know also that no appeal system was in place. That was hardly fair. It was not impartial, and it was certainly not independent. At the same time as those courts martial were proceeding, the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act specified that anyone charged with an offence has the right to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial court. Although the provisions of this bill propose to address those anomalies for the future, we would ask that the select committee gives some consideration to compensation mechanisms or redress for those individuals who have suffered the injustice of those inconsistencies subsequent to the introduction of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting this bill with, as always, the challenge that T\u0101mati Kruger made when he reminded us of the importance of the pursuit of justice to attain human rights and to achieve our own self-determination: ka warea te ware, ka area te rangatira; hongi, hongi te whewheia, hongi, hongi te manehurangi; kei a au te rangatiratanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Ignorance is the oppressor, vigilance is the liberator; know the enemy, know the destiny; determine our own destiny.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EKia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022 data-id=\u002299d278a465894b4eb0a8b81834ced6d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299d278a465894b4eb0a8b81834ced6d7\u0022\u003EJOHN HAYES (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I certainly agree that ignorance is the oppressor. I have never heard such an ignorant series of facts as those just touted out on the floor of this Chamber by the previous speaker, who used to teach the children of this country. I am very glad that he is now in this House so we can bring him to heel and tell him the truth. For example, when I think of my contacts with the military, my observation would be that it is colour-blind. People in the military in New Zealand are colour-blind and anybody who thinks that they are not is off the planet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI can recall that back in the late 1960s Major General Brian Poananga was head of the New Zealand military force, and today I think of Lieutenant General Jerry Matep\u0101rae who, equally, has the most senior position in our military. When that member talks about glass ceilings, it just shows that he is speaking from ignorance, and I am delighted that he is no longer putting bad ideas in the heads of our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI will now come back to the Armed Forces Law Reform Bill. Parliament is looking at this bill, and the National Party will be supporting it, because there has been no substantial reform of the military justice system in New Zealand since the Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971. As my colleague Dr Worth pointed out, it took 12 years before that Act came into force, in 1983. We also have to focus on the fact that our domestic and international developments in human rights law\u2014and by that I particularly mean the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990\u2014have necessitated a thorough review of the military justice system in New Zealand. This bill results from the review of the military justice system that was conducted by the New Zealand Defence Force, probably under, I think, Kevin Riordan. It amends the Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971, the Courts Martial Appeals Act 1953, and the Defence Act 1990. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI have sat through a certain amount of drivel coming from a number of earlier speakers here in this House this afternoon. Having been personally involved in peacekeeping operations involving New Zealand Defence Forces in other countries, I can tell members that the sort of reason that we need our lawyers engaged in these processes is to do the exchange of letters with other countries. For example, if New Zealand sends the HMNZS Endeavour across to Bougainville to engage in peacekeeping operations, there are rules of engagement and there are standard agreements between countries. But that is not what we are here to discuss today; we are here to discuss military discipline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EWe need this bill for two reasons. First, we need it because at the moment there is a discrepancy between our three services in the disciplinary procedures that exist. Although the Army and the Air Force are in sync, our Navy is not. Secondly, we have to ensure that our disciplinary procedures, especially courts martial, are comparable with those of like-minded partners like Australia, Canada, and Britain. I think that this is particularly important, given the increased level of deployments that have involved those other countries over the past 10 years. This will mean, I think, an improved court martial procedure, including a new role of presiding judge and more appropriate Court of Appeal procedures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EOne issue that is bothering me, and one that we will be looking at very carefully as the bill is considered in this House, is the fact that the Defence Force\u2019s legal directorate now has 28 officers, compared with four just a few years ago. I keep wondering to myself whether this is part of a Government make-work scheme. It is certainly consistent with the huge growth in bureaucracy that is occurring under the tenure of Helen Clark and the \u201CGreen\u201D Government\u2014reflecting on Keith Locke\u2019s comments, I am not sure whether the Green Party will actually support this bill; time will tell. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EOne aspect of this legislation seems problematical to me, as well. I note that in the comment on consultation in the explanatory note of the bill, the Government departments and agencies that were consulted are listed. As my colleague Dianne Yates read out, these include Treasury, the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Justice, the Crown Law Office, and the Parliamentary Counsel Office. The note also states: \u201CThere have also been a number of meetings between the New Zealand Defence Force and both the Ministry of Justice and the Crown Law Office to settle policy.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EI find it astonishing that there has been no consultation with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, given the strength of its legal division and its engagement, on an international platform, with many other countries. So I will also be looking, as the bill progresses, at why there has been such inadequate consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ae94eea7-ba5f-4303-bf71-49e708bc9888\u0022\u003EThose are the main points that I would like to register here in the House this afternoon. I reiterate National\u2019s support for this bill\u2019s progression through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2b39dc8763949ecb3f7b214a1a263c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2b39dc8763949ecb3f7b214a1a263c5\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Very briefly, I want to place on record that I consider the Armed Forces Law Reform Bill to be an excellent piece of work. It has been 5 years in the making, and, reading through it this afternoon, I can see that it is very carefully structured, in terms of its presentation to members of Parliament, and covers its impact and the consultation undertaken. We as a House should recognise it as a model of its type. The work of the select committee and the Minister, Phil Goff, leading up to this point reflects that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EOn occasion we in this Parliament can agree on matters and work together to best effect. I place on record the contribution made by Commander Chris Griggs, the military justice review project officer, who has been working within the New Zealand Defence Force for a considerable period to produce this work. He is highly professional. This bill was obviously a labour of love as well as a labour of excellence. I trust that over the next few months the select committee will do good work on the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc8d98abf5274514ad4d69f357460bc7\u0022\u003EDisabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002278ea57001ddb4b56b28313f818285a82\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000391\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 February.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e82521567dd4ca69deddc3712444bc8\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002218d8d4cfcb7149409ce120eecedf9c21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218d8d4cfcb7149409ce120eecedf9c21\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to again speak on Part 1 of this Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill. This bill has a very unfortunate history, when one notes that the Labour Government, which is promoting it, has just brought in an amendment that extends the transition period. This goes a little way\u2014but does not go nearly far enough\u2014towards sorting out the numerous flaws in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI have been in close contact with the sheltered workshops, and they are deeply concerned that the transition arrangements that the Labour Government and Minister Dyson said would be sorted out simply have not been sorted out. They will affect adversely New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable workers, and they will affect the sheltered workshops, which go to great extent and great effort to provide choice to disabled workers who might otherwise not have a job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to see that the Minister, in her latest Supplementary Order Paper, dated 13 March, wishes to extend the date in clause 4, from 30 June 2007 to 30 November 2007. Clearly, Minister Dyson is admitting that there were basic flaws in this bill\u2019s transitional arrangements. She should know that, because I have just spoken to people from two of the sheltered workshops who say that the problems they have had with their workers, in terms of both the exemptions and the taxation abatement regimes, have just not been sorted out by this Labour Government and this Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E Two or 3 years ago this Minister grandly said that these things would be sorted out by 30 June, but clearly they have not been. I think what is really important is that a very sensible Supplementary Order Paper was put in by Dr Paul Hutchison as long ago as last November, which meant that the Government would be able to enact this bill from as soon as when it had sorted out the flaws that are within the bill. The real question is whether the Government can sort out the problems by 30 November 2007, and given its track record, I would say no. What does the sector say? The sector says that the Government has simply had a dismal track record over the last 3 years. In fact, one of the sheltered workshops was due to have Department of Labour inspectors in this week to sort out the exemptions, but suddenly, at the last moment, they said they could not turn up and it would be another month or so. Once again, Minister Dyson is great at putting out the ideological legislation that she is so prone to, but she is very bad at sorting out the practicalities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe sheltered workshop told me the labour inspectors had come along for a bit of a chat and had said the exemption rules were going to change, but when asked when they would change, they said they did not know. That is the difficulty that has plagued the people who have been trying to look after disabled workers for the past 3 years. Clearly that difficulty will go on month after month, unless the Minister decides that she actually will get these things in place. Apparently, the inspectors were asked whether more money would be available. There was a reply that there might be, but they did not know when. How can that be, when we read in the foreword to the bill that these transitional requirements would be sorted out, but they failed to be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at some of the things that were claimed. It states there are costs associated with repealing the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act. These fall on Government agencies and providers. Broadly, the direct costs to the Government are from transition and management costs such as the costs of administering minimum wage exemption permits. Well, I have heard from the substantial sheltered workshops that almost every worker requires a minimum wage exemption, and that in doing that, their paper-shuffling will quadruple. This is typical Labour Government bureaucracy at its worst.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0183a340fba4e82ad2b1767522b954a\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, totally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcca503200dd4970a57a87a1fd2f1cfa\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CAbsolutely\u201D, as my colleague Sandra Goudie, the excellent member from the Coromandel\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221368ba6c-25be-40f6-a2a0-8f81e1f78b79\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253896c4717634d2d9aa3b8132ee9f1c5\u0022\u003EChris Tremain\u003C/span\u003E: Very hard-working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227adfeb98cc6a4164b0626431e4dbb2fb\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and a very hard-working member says. She has taken a great interest in the disability sector. These are the practical things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe document further states that the direct costs to providers are because they will have to comply with the Minimum Wage Act 1983 and the Holidays Act 2003. It states that providers will also face some compliance costs. I say we have never really worked out exactly how much those compliance costs are, and when one goes to places like the Abilities Group workshop on the North Shore or Workforce Auckland in M\u0101ngere one is very much impressed by the terrific work done by the managers of those sheltered workshops. They are clearly humming. The workforce love their jobs. In fact, as I was told by Peter Fraher of Abilities Group, under the present system some of the workers are so keen on their jobs that they come early, they stay late, after the holiday period they turn up for work the day before they are due back, because they are so keen to be there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c97813f476a342eab97d0a225fc48838\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t pay them wages!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b9f3119f3d4a5fb7782059ff7715f6\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: We see the Minister across the House chipping in and harping on, yet she is the one who has failed to bring in the practical realities to make these choices work for disabled people. I am glad Minister Dyson has at least postponed the date to 30 November, but I doubt very much whether this will, indeed, allow the workshops, under her regime, to get back to the system they wish to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the other points that is noted by the States Services Commission is that approximately $44 million over 4 years was committed in Budget 2002 to improve the quantity and quality of vocational services. That has obviously been great, but it has not gone towards helping the sheltered workshops who provide this extremely valuable choice for disabled workers today. I note that one of the sheltered workshops pointed out what would happen if, indeed, it paid an average of $2 per hour extra. It found out that a great deal of that money would actually go back to the Government. The workshop said: \u201CIt\u2019s morally unacceptable for a Government to siphon these funds out of the disability sector, which is already significantly underfunded. Government has an obligation to support disadvantaged people and the organisations that employ, care and develop them, not make their lives and enjoyment more uncertain.\u201D This is what they have been living under for the last 3 years. It is unnecessary uncertainty. The Supplementary Order Paper I have put in would at least make it sure for them that the bill would be enacted when the Government has actually ironed out the flaws. The Minister, once again, has given an unrealistic time line and that is particularly regrettable. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa3f693e808049bd8fddfd5c8f8665a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa3f693e808049bd8fddfd5c8f8665a6\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022956418784c5b4adc8e41f80e27c123ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022956418784c5b4adc8e41f80e27c123ff\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora Madam Chair, kia ora t\u0101tou. When this Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill first came before us as a caucus we got the opportunity to get a briefing from Minister Dyson on it. As a result of that briefing I was quite keen on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThen our co-leader Tariana Turia suggested I have a look at a place called the Abilities Group over on the North Shore. So I went across to the group to have a look at the operation and I spent quite a bit of time talking to the management, to some of the staff, to some of the disabled workers, and to some of their wh\u0101nau. I was mightily impressed with what they were doing. In particular, I refer to some of the comments raised by Dr Paul Hutchison in respect of the keenness of a number of those disabled people to want to actually be there, and also to note the comments from a number of the wh\u0101nau, that the Abilities Group did not just provide somewhere positive for their family members to go to during the day, it also provided them, as families, with a break\u2014with an opportunity to get themselves together, get their homes together, and get things organised for later on when their family members came back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EMy concern was that any threat to an organisation like the Abilities Group to continue to provide a place of employment that is very positive\u2014and I am not just talking from a management point of view, but from the workers\u2019 points of view as well as from the families of the workers\u2019 points of view\u2014I think needs to be taken into consideration. If what Dr Hutchison is suggesting gives us the opportunity to give greater consideration to the issues that are raised by positive organisations such as the Abilities Group, then I think we should take up that opportunity, because once it becomes law it then becomes a little bit too late for the poor old disabled person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI know, too\u2014and not just from the Abilities Group but from other areas\u2014of situations where people have been recommended out into the workforce because the nice labour inspector said that person was ready to go out into the workforce. Unfortunately, when that person goes out into the workforce, there is nobody in that normal workplace who has any sense of the needs of the disabled person who has just come through the door. As is the case in many situations like that, they are teased, they get bullied, and very, very quickly they are back into the sheltered workshop from whence they came, except they are often a lot more hurt by the experience of going out there. Although the Labour inspector might say that this person is able to work in a normal mainstream environment, quite simply, the inspector is not there on a day-to-day basis to ensure that those needs are going to be met. Also, it is unrealistic to expect normal workplaces to provide the support systems to ensure that disabled persons\u2019 specific needs are going to be met on a day-to-day basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party will be supporting the legislation because we support any attempt to improve the lot of the disabled. We will also be supporting the Supplementary Order Paper from Dr Hutchison to see whether it is possible to extend the time frame within which the legislation will be put into place so that we can give proper consideration to ways and means of protecting the needs of those providing the service, those requiring the service, those wh\u0101nau who are directly affected by this legislation, as well as the Labour inspectors who, quite frankly, from my understanding, are not really sure how best to deal with this once it hits the streets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u00222397c756acc24ebfa100d1f5ca1d1377\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222397c756acc24ebfa100d1f5ca1d1377\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b7cd1549360f417fb2a0ea193684e44e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000414\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 96 in the name of the Hon Ruth Dyson to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022357af4a38b4046539bb81acf3fc0e479\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e36e14355e14bfa910af1235521a4a9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 71 in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to clause 4(b) is now out of order because it is inconsistent with the previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002275737fbd0b9b4f29aa13a7a8e5532b2f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202f66c84b84a4a76a3388a97d15af32b\u0022\u003EPart 2  Repeal of Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act 1960\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002275ba5ad98dab4f228d9bd51a184f8276\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275ba5ad98dab4f228d9bd51a184f8276\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to be able to speak to this part, because one of the things it covers is exempt organisations. In looking at that, I am reminded of a comment that was made in the Southland Times, a glib explanation from the Minister for Disability Issues, Ruth Dyson, in regard to the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill\u2014by gee, that is a mouthful. The Minister\u2019s explanation implied that assessors will go into sheltered workshops to evaluate the percentage of productivity of each individual, then will inform those individuals whether they qualify to earn a percentage of the minimum wage. Where else in the workforce environment of New Zealand do we see people being assessed on whether they are actually capable of working? Someone will actually be assessing these people individually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIn the first instance, I am concerned to hear that labour inspectors are looking at changing the parameters of that assessment now, before the legislation is even passed. They are saying the assessment parameter will be looked at down the track and there will be some changes made to it; I am concerned about that. Secondly, I think it is a concern anyway that we have labour inspectors going in and making those judgments. They are standing there and talking to someone about his or her level of ability to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EPoor little Sammy is going into the sheltered workshop every day, and he thinks he is really fantastic. He is rocking up, saying \u201CHi, guys.\u201D, and being looked after by those who run the sheltered workshop. He has friends there and he has work there\u2014or what he calls work. It may not be all that much, but it is a big thing to Sam. Then some people come along, say they do not think he is very capable of doing any work at all, and give Sam an assessment. The assessment says that Sam will be exempt from earning the minimum wage because those people do not think he deserves it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThat is pretty much what will happen as a result of these assessments. Do members think that is fair? How do we convey to an individual that message about his or her ability in a way that person can understand, and not have that person suddenly feel totally valueless as a result? Where is the respect for people who work in sheltered workshops as individuals in the process of this bill? I do not think it is there, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe assessment for exemption totally devalues these people and their capabilities as individuals, and it totally devalues their self-esteem and dignity. Ruth Dyson has not mentioned or acknowledged the most important daily therapeutic needs of people who go to what we call a sheltered workshop\u2014needs of socialising, learning, and sharing. Those individuals go to these environments and they feel valued. They feel they have contacts and friends. They feel they are making a worthwhile contribution, no matter how small that contribution is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe should be talking about how those people feel; we should not be talking about what we think and feel. Why should we, the able-bodied, be dictating to people who do not have the same degree of cognisance, understanding, or ability as ourselves, but, none the less, do have cognisance and ability of their own? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ETo say that these people were consulted is an absolute farce\u2014they were not. These workers\u2014we will call them workers\u2014and their families were not consulted properly. The Government says there was consultation undertaken by People First, but it was peer reviewed and found to be an absolute disgrace. So to even assume that these people have been consulted in any way, shape, or form\u2014certainly, in any meaningful way\u2014is very, very far from the truth. They certainly have not been consulted. These people are being denied the very basic human right to choose\u2014that is, to choose what they will do each and every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThere is the suggestion that repealing the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act will make everybody equal, but that is not right. That will not happen. Repealing the Act will mean that suddenly a group of people in this country will now be assessed and told either that they are capable of earning the minimum wage or that they are not. Those who are going for exemptions because they cannot work all that much will be told they are no good and not up to snuff. How do we tell them that? I ask whether there is any nice way to say that we are giving them an exemption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2a2e0668ff044a488df5e8207f330e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2a2e0668ff044a488df5e8207f330e6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I listened intently to the member who has just resumed her seat. She seemed to be talking about clauses in Part 3. I am under the impression we are debating Part 2 at this moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c26cc76b4fc747b28799bfe8dc000572\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all right; you can think that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259bd6121a8734c349b002b88b66474b0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: She is glad I noticed. At least someone was listening to her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cba641a9745e44bb97e1eb12c8e51f56\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. It certainly looks as if she could have been referring to some of the clauses in Part 3. I just remind members that we are talking on clauses 6 to 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00226d3852be2e824f0495a6937d685efd56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d3852be2e824f0495a6937d685efd56\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take the opportunity to speak on Part 2 of the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill. It is very interesting to see that we are debating something rather noble here, but that is not the major point of concern. Nobody would dispute that enabling everybody to reach their potential is a noble gesture to aspire to, and that is no doubt the core motivation behind this bill. However, I was very disturbed to find, at the report back to Parliament after the hearings of the Social Services Committee, that there were major, and practically unanimous, concerns from the other parties\u2014namely, the National Party, New Zealand First, the ACT party, and United Future\u2014over the actual practicalities and methods that have been designed to implement this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI must say that I am convinced by the arguments of the very good members on this side of the Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e6f3c6bf8514139a4a2a007985fb662\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Name them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce1e31a80f2429391e8a83bdd46c56d\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Paul Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a9f7918a354f199ec58f9bc7aa076c\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: An excellent member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e40849d5ce044e4b04322f298cc11e1\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: He is an excellent member. Sandra Goudie, the member for Coromandel, has wonderful argumentation. I also acknowledge the member of the M\u0101ori Party, Hone Harawira, who said he saw a lot of wisdom in this matter being progressively implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI have huge concerns that when we look at the grand plan around Part 2 we see that it is very complicated. The fact that Minister Dyson has capitulated in the last hour and extended things out to 30 November 2007 is a sign that she was losing her nerve when speaking earlier about the noble expectations of the New Zealand strategy moving forward. We are dealing with some very vulnerable situations here. We are dealing with people who are vulnerable. We learnt about the expectations of those people from Sandra Goudie, the outstanding member for Coromandel. She encapsulated the satisfaction that is achieved by people as they reach their thresholds and are then nurtured through to do greater and better things. That is one of the vulnerable aspects in this whole thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EOne of the other vulnerable aspects I see as I look at Part 2 is the organisational structure and goodwill that is there at present. I see that goodwill going out the window, to some degree, because of the climate we are expecting these organisations to compete in. An enormous amount of community goodwill goes with these organisations. When I was given the responsibility to get to my feet and speak on this bill\u2014I had not been on the select committee\u2014I immediately rang home to Blenheim to check out just how things were going. I was saddened to see that a lot of the people there did not know what was going on, and I was directed over to Nelson. On that basis, I was not able to get too many answers. I had to ring somebody at home to get a bit of an idea\u2014one of those people who come on board and support the community. That person supported those people and was very committed to a number of families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe are talking not only about a fundamental move forward on a noble aspiration of a minimum wage but also about maintaining the infrastructure and value that presently exists inside these organisations. There are a lot of unmeasurables. We do not know the consequences of implementing what could be described as a noble gesture. It involves measurement of the value and worthiness of a person to receive the minimum wage, or a percentage thereof, and of the obligations that that puts on the whole system of things\u2014the smooth running of the operations, and the requirement for calling in extra support when there are difficulties inside these establishments. I am hugely concerned about the exemption of organisations. The system will be wide open to abuse. We have to think carefully about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00221ebb448291f84314aa054a95dcc56c34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ebb448291f84314aa054a95dcc56c34\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E For those who might be listening to this debate, we are debating the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill\u2014and specifically debating Part 2, \u201CRepeal of Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act 1960\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWithout exception, everybody I have spoken to in the industry\u2014that is, administrators and management\u2014has said that the 1960 Act has to go and that it has to go as quickly as possible. My goodness me! Many of them really put the pressure on to say that the sooner we get rid of it and replace it with proper legislation the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supported this bill at its first reading. But after what we were told at the select committee and after we saw what came back from the select committee, we had reservations and decided to oppose the bill. We liked the look of Dr Hutchison\u2019s 2-year transitional period. But it is too long. We have to get rid of the current 1960 Act soon and replace it with a new Act. This bill will do the job. We needed to be convinced that it could come into place on 30 June, and we were not convinced of that. We spoke to the Minister Ruth Dyson, we laid our cards on the table, she gave us a very good hearing, and an alternative date was put up that was not acceptable. Finally, we agreed on a date that is 5 months later\u201430 November\u2014and that is some 8 or 9 months from now. We think this legislation can be put in place by that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere are two remaining issues. The first issue concerns the guidelines. I understand that the department is working on guidelines now. We have asked the Minister to use the influence she has to prevail on the department to get the guidelines completed, albeit in draft form, and out to the sector in rapid order. I am hopeful that the sector will get those guidelines in the not too distant future\u2014as in a few weeks away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe third\u2014and probably the most important\u2014issue is funding. There has to be adequate funding. I am not privy to the Budget, but I have spoken with the Minister on this subject. I believe her when she assures me that there will be funding for this area. So New Zealand First, in discussions with the Government, has achieved three things: the guidelines will come out, the funding will be there, and there will be ample time to address the concerns that have been raised during the select committee process and, indeed, in this Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI repeat that the current legislation has to go. Everybody I have spoken to in the sector in a management or administrative role tells me that. Those people have also told me that some of the statements made by some National members indicate that people will be kicked out of sheltered workshops. Those sorts of statements are alarmist, they are causing concern in the community and in families, and they are doing no good at all for the people who are depending on the workshops. I prevail on National members to keep their comments more credible and more fair. When we last debated this legislation, I heard a National member make really sweeping statements about closing workshops and kicking people out on to the street.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThat is not going to happen. I give members the assurance that the Government, whatever National members think of it, knows far better than to do that. It is not unaware of the problems that this sector is facing, and I know for a fact that it will not let that occur. I have absolute confidence that the Government is well aware of the problems that this sector is facing, and will ensure that people are not kicked out on the street.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EA more pressing problem is whether these workshops will let people come in at the right level of intake. I am hopeful that this bill, if we can get it in place by 30 November\u2014or earlier, if possible\u2014will address those problems and there will be no restrictions placed on those who need to come into these workshops coming in at the right time and at the right level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI do not want to say much more, because New Zealand First has looked into this bill pretty thoroughly. We have had some very positive dialogue with the Minister. The fate of this bill is in the Government\u2019s hands, and we will be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022c63f221d41e94dc78900cd4341f285fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c63f221d41e94dc78900cd4341f285fb\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting to hear Peter Brown from New Zealand First talk about Part 2. He is absolutely correct that nobody is against the basic thrust of ensuring that all disabled people are given every opportunity possible. In the National Party we do support the New Zealand Disability Strategy and we do support Pathways to Inclusion. One of the things that Peter Brown did not understand about the excellent amendment I have suggested is that it would incentivise the Government to iron out the flaws in this bill. Then, as soon as it had done that, the bill could be enacted\u20142 years was the outer limit. The difficulty with what Peter Brown and New Zealand First have negotiated with the Government is that we have a finite date of 30 November, and people just do not trust this Labour Government to have sorted out the practical flaws\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0483792d0634703a03fc31e0c634637\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Pull the other one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce71a7863f934ae48fb29f218c94c81a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: We see the Hon Clayton Cosgrove over there. I ask that member what the chairman of Workforce Auckland says. He says: \u201COur support for Dr Hutchison\u2019s amendment stems from our concern that the system proposed to replace the DPEP Act contains serious flaws.\u201D He goes on to say: \u201CWe cannot be confident that these flaws will be remedied \u2026 given the dismal lack of progress in the nearly 3 years since they were first identified.\u201D That is the record of the Labour Government\u2014a dismal lack of progress. That record goes right back to 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246fc0ab260f642f78449d7a3c7a57563\u0022\u003EHon Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your record? Cutting all the benefits. Cutting all the disability allowances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222156ee32c3c04ca3baaf528dffb99df0\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Here we have Clayton Cosgrove questioning our record. I see in the chair the Minister of Corrections, Damien O\u2019Connor. Has he come here because of the pathetic muck-up he has caused in respect of the Department of Corrections? Will he do the same thing to the disability portfolio? Well, I hope not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe reality of this bill is that it must be taken seriously, and the machinery around the exempting of disabled people is not easy to apply. As has been pointed out by Peter Fraher from Abilities Group, this is a very exacting task. There is difficulty in terms of the assessments. The people who are required to do these assessments appropriately require a lot of time and a lot of skill. In the case of abilities, every single disabled worker will require an exemption. What is extraordinary about the Government\u2019s amendments is that the Government has said that a labour inspector may revoke a permit at any time if the inspector considers it no longer reasonable and appropriate for the permit to remain in force. So here we have the sheltered workshop management carefully going through and assessing, as sensitively and appropriately as it can, every disabled worker. But the Labour Government is saying: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about that. One of our inspectors can come in and revoke the permit on a whim.\u201D That clearly is not practical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think Clayton Cosgrove should be aware of the fact that this is driven, as always, by the trade unions, which just do not like the idea of exemptions. They will do everything possible to make it difficult for the sheltered workshops to be able to plan\u2014and that is very much personified in the extra amendment the Government has put in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut National is concerned about the fact that the Labour Government, given its dismal track record, will not be able to put in this transitional machinery by 30 November. That is why it is so concerning for the people trying to run these workshops, who have said to me that they need as long as it takes before the bill should be enacted. That is why it is such a tragedy that Minister Ruth Dyson has come in and admitted that it cannot be done by 30 June and has given only a finite time. That is the unfortunate part of that understanding of New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u00225b02324d04dc4ad1a6160f161cde0ffd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b02324d04dc4ad1a6160f161cde0ffd\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to this part of the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion (Repeal and Related Matters) Bill, I simply ask the question of what is wrong with people being paid according to the work they do, rather than according to the place at which they work. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with people being paid for the work they do, rather than according to the place at which they work? There is no answer to that from the Opposition. The members of the Opposition do not meet that challenge. In that case, why are they stalling on this bill? This is legislation that is fundamental to human rights in this country. It is fundamental to the way in which we regard our fellow citizens. It is fundamental to lifting the cloak of paternalistic behaviour, which was redolent in the preceding speeches of those from the other side of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EIt is fundamental to every citizen of this county that he or she has the right to be paid according to the work he or she does, rather than according to the place at which he or she works. Dr Paul Hutchison has gone on and on about the disadvantage to the work centres that would be caused by the passing of this bill, yet time and time again in his speeches in this House he refers to just one workshop\u2014he speaks of just one of 47 providers in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c6c05ae7d04c36b08c5b9bece312b2\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: No, two major providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022740d386035fc487ea1a74505f7033574\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: Two? Oh, well, two then. If there are two that indicates the lack of substance to Dr Hutchison\u2019s argument. Forty-five out of 47 cannot be too bad, in terms of those providers who support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003ESo I get back to the basic question we must ask ourselves: how do we regard our fellow citizens in this country? Do we regard them solely as an economic work unit to be exploited by organisations who are receiving better work than that for which they pay? Or do we regard them as equal citizens who should be paid fairly for the work that they do\u2014not assessed on any inherent disability, but judged on the work that they can do and their output, and paid accordingly? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EIt is time we stopped branding fellow New Zealanders. It is time we stopped putting people into little boxes and then shoving them to one side. The time for passing this bill has come, and the time for delay is long past. So that is why clause 8 of the bill, which deals with the exemption for approved organisations, has a time frame that can be quite tight. But one can hardly say that it has not been without notice; this bill has been on the cards since 2001. The pathway strategy has been clearly defined, and consultation has been extensive. At the end of the day, National members can use all the words they like, but they will not answer the challenge as to why someone should not be paid for the work he or she does, rather than for the place at which he or she works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003ESo I am pleased to be part of a Government that is bringing in a repeal of a 47-year-old statute that was passed in the days in which the National Party is still firmly rooted\u2014the days of believing that one can determine people\u2019s worth by the way their employers regard them. That is an elevation of thought\u2014an approach to life that says that those who pay the piper will call the tune. Well, there are some people in this country who need the protection of a Government that understands the different abilities of individuals, and the richness of life and the colour that people of all stripes bring to our society. The day we put to one side the branding iron that brands some people as being inferior and less worthy than others\u2014saying that those who work in such and such a place get branded as inferior\u2014is the day we emerge as a much stronger, more decent, and more humane society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThis is a bill whose time has come. This is a bill where the delaying tactics of Opposition members reflect only on them and no one else. This is a bill that says that all humans in this country, no matter their range of abilities, are entitled to respect, to an opportunity to work, to remuneration, and to the recognition of their ability to organise their own lives\u2014not because of some institutionalised bias and not because of some patronising attitude that two out of 47 employers will find this difficult to apply. I say that those two out of the 47 employers had better take a long, hard look at the operation they run. They should take a long, hard look from the client base up, and say: \u201CWe employ human beings, and we shall regard these human beings as people worthy of an appropriate and decent wage.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe time for delay is long past. The time to pay people of all stripes and abilities is here. This is the opportunity the National Party should be embracing. National members opposite should relieve themselves of some of their inhibitions and guilt and step forward up to the plate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022d70d0468e5a84ffd85fd93b296c0ca5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d70d0468e5a84ffd85fd93b296c0ca5e\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting to read an extract from the New Zealand Herald of 10 February, where Mr Ralph Jones, the Chief Executive Officer of IHC New Zealand obviously believes he is selling his soul on this issue. When he was held to account by a Mrs Armstrong of Nelson, the mother of a disabled person\u2014she was worried about the situation in respect of someone in her family\u2014his response was: \u201CHas the IHC become too PC in some areas? Yes, by being a service provider we have bought into the government expectation, standards and policies. The $140 million\u201D\u2014which is what IHC receives from the Government\u2014\u201Ccomes with a cost.\u201D The cost is obviously too hard to swallow for Mr Jones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe problem we have here is that the Labour Government feels it needs to stick to a philosophy\u2014a philosophy that all people must earn a minimum wage, even at a time when that minimum wage may give them less, or at least nothing more, than what they are getting at the moment. So the disabled people who are working in the workshops in my electorate, and in workshops right around the country, have to be assessed as to how much they are worth in terms of a full unit; that is a pretty degrading way of going about assessing somebody\u2019s work, especially somebody who is unable, probably, in most cases, to make an argument to the contrary or to seek some sort of appeal or review of what that is. So we have a situation where the people who are working with these disabled people, who care for them, and who have become their friends over long periods of time need to make what is quite a cold-hearted sort of assessment of people they care about. That assessment should actually be done by the inspectors; the trouble is that there are not enough inspectors to do the job, but no one seems to care too much about that. We can look at the case of a person who commented recently in the media. He had 86 members to assess, and no help from the department in doing that. He had to sit down and work with them, and they had to have a family member present. Then later the assessment had to be ticked off by an inspector, who would assess the job that that man had done\u2014a job an inspector should have done. That man had spent hours and hours working on those assessments, and he had done only six; he had another 80 to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWhat has become completely apparent too is that for a lot of these workshops the cost of the attendance fee will be a lot more than what they currently pay, but it will give virtually nothing more\u2014if anything\u2014to those who are attending. Minister Dyson\u2019s response to this was that she could see their problem, but she did not think it would continue to be a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070315be4537ad885941d0966222cd1a8d2597000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"