"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1ab415afc1a461eace1724f3895de3f\u0022\u003EThursday, 22 March 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b5f0295ac584b96bce0e034bff4ffe2\u0022\u003EThursday, 22 March 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b07093cb09fb4c61a1c56f5d37724201\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002280537448c8264165ba3180c88bdb26b4\u0022\u003EPakistan\u2014National Assembly and Senate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00229491faf26a294e2986fe9cbfc87ef646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229491faf26a294e2986fe9cbfc87ef646\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing members that the parliamentary delegation from the National Assembly and Senate of Pakistan, led by Mr Hamid Nasir Chattha, is present in the gallery. I am sure that members would like to welcome the delegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022acfb2518da9544649e8ca86f6861f473\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba797ce4896f48d189f96553a8a28e78\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00227be57d01b3aa4a4796aca2155b61ce16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227be57d01b3aa4a4796aca2155b61ce16\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House priority will be given to the remaining stages of the Criminal Procedure Bill, the Justices of the Peace Amendment Bill, and the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill, and to the first reading of the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill. Wednesday, of course, is a members\u2019 day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221bb7bb0b4b7c4989be269e3b6f7d32c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bb7bb0b4b7c4989be269e3b6f7d32c3\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I have two questions to ask the Leader of the House today. The first relates to some potential business of the House. A report released at 1.20 today suggested that the Government is about to introduce electoral reform legislation to the House. Firstly, I ask Dr Cullen what the time line is for that and whether he intends to discuss that bill with all other parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe second matter deals with what appears to be a growing amount of speculation around Parliament that the Government will afford urgency next week to Sue Bradford\u2019s section 59 repeal bill. I suppose that the natural conclusion to draw is that it would be very tidy for the Government to introduce an electoral reform bill and the section 59 bill under one urgency motion in order, perhaps, to take away some of the bad headlines it could expect from the latter bill. So can the Leader of the House simply tell us whether there is an electoral reform bill due any time, will there be consultation with all other parties, and does the Government intend to take urgency to pass the bill known as Sue Bradford\u2019s anti-smacking bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00222e9eb23e766a4e5d93f5d7d9f76e6176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e9eb23e766a4e5d93f5d7d9f76e6176\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E It would not be possible at the moment for Ms Bradford\u2019s bill and the Government bill to be dealt with simultaneously, as one is a member\u2019s bill coming up on a members\u2019 day and the other will be a Government bill coming up on a Government day. So that would be one rather large difficulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESecondly, of course it is the House that affords urgency, not the Government. I would, of course, welcome support for any urgency in such matters. Thirdly, obviously the National Party will be involved in discussion of any electoral reform bill that may be prepared, because, of course\u2014that is called Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00227627becc26ff45d78d334a8820843755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227627becc26ff45d78d334a8820843755\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Could the Leader of the House expand, for the enlightenment of parties down this end of the House, on whether those issues he was discussing with the National Party about an electoral reform bill will include legislation to prevent the sorts of things we have read about in the book The Hollow Men from ever being allowed to recur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022704de4e8dfd44c13a890e41c848b2b12\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022becb1ec9fed84de189eb4b8ce1e7adc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022becb1ec9fed84de189eb4b8ce1e7adc5\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Leader of the House for his indications. In accepting that I am somewhat of a primitive in these matters compared with him, I wonder whether I might put the question to him in a different way: does the Government intend to move a motion in order that Sue Bradford\u2019s bill might pass under urgency next week? Further, does he intend to consult with other political parties, particularly the National Party, prior to introducing an electoral reform bill, also due imminently?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4546ebf43a34222be1b3a9508a48d8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4546ebf43a34222be1b3a9508a48d8a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E On the latter matter, the Government\u2019s practice is to consult with parties sufficiently to ensure that it has a majority before introducing a bill. It prefers to have the votes to pass the first reading before it actually introduces a bill. Of course, the National Party will have full input on any matters that might trammel its capacity to repeat its performance as outlined in The Hollow Men, at the subsequent stages of that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOn the second matter, again, the Government would not move urgency on any matter unless it had the assurance it had a majority to support that motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022538a1eab4cb64a35b88716c3838bd768\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022538a1eab4cb64a35b88716c3838bd768\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Is Dr Cullen in a position to say whether, if he does seek urgency on any matter, he will go through official channels and party leadership, or will he just approach individual MPs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002210c4c3dab101403a8d0ae9094a698ee9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210c4c3dab101403a8d0ae9094a698ee9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E We adopt a variety of processes. This particular bill, of course, is a conscience matter for those caucuses not operating a party vote. That complicates procedural matters in this respect. But I would certainly be consulting with either the leader of New Zealand First or the acting leader, depending on when Mr Peters is available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00224ca8da4884d841789549afac5914af4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ca8da4884d841789549afac5914af4f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E I ask the Leader of the House to clarify whether, in fact, it would be possible to do what Mr Brownlee has very kindly suggested, if we got to legislation after 10 p.m. on a particular day. I think there might have been a suggestion from the Leader of the House that it was not possible, but I have looked into it and I think it is a very good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fff815baa0d04482b9feddb46480a566\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fff815baa0d04482b9feddb46480a566\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E That would certainly not be the Government\u2019s intention. If an electoral reform bill is introduced, it will proceed through the normal channels\u2014that is, it will be introduced and lie upon the Table for at least 3 sitting days before it is afforded a first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8c7b1527461452a9b221b0fa101fa0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8c7b1527461452a9b221b0fa101fa0a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure that many Labour members\u2014probably 17\u2014are surprised to learn that the repeal of section 59 of the Crimes Act is a conscience issue. But that is neither here nor there. The real point is whether we are now to assume that the Labour Government sees electoral reform in this country\u2014and therefore the legislation that will follow from electoral reform\u2014as just another suit in the hands it plays in order to stay in Government by appeasing its supporting parties. That would be utterly appalling. Such legislation should be considered by all parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228763bca3e8674c7a867caf5c44f03aa2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the member is now verging into the realms of matters for debate. I was not sure whether there was an issue there, but maybe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002253a246d889de4b02b52a14ce0451b307\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253a246d889de4b02b52a14ce0451b307\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to speak to the point of order, Madam Speaker. Within my memory, National, in its past as a National Government, has, over the heads of a Labour Opposition, passed electoral legislation that disfranchised large numbers of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be560a8714e543f78652dbea4197d416\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022312921294cab4e08a861d3acb1527661\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e2abf6adbba43339d3303049807800a\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Customary Rights\u2014Water\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022011cd127a020495d931c40e2babea24c\u0022\u003E1. TE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: He aha ng\u0101 kupu tohutohu kua whiwhi e ia mai i ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B M\u0101ori whiriwhiri kaupapa me Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, e p\u0101 ana ki te mana tuku iho o te M\u0101ori m\u014D te wai?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[What advice has he received from M\u0101ori reference groups and Te Puni K\u014Dkiri regarding M\u0101ori customary rights to water?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022d996d15d4dc141f2b7a555b9c16fb6de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d996d15d4dc141f2b7a555b9c16fb6de\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Associate Minister for the Environment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for the Environment: M\u014D te Minita o te Taiao, k\u0101re an\u014D i whiwhi i ng\u0101 whakaaro a Te Puni K\u014Dkiri m\u014D t\u0113nei kaupapa. M\u0113n\u0101 ka whakaarohia taua mema ki ng\u0101 mahi a t\u0113tehi komiti M\u0101ori n\u0101 te hiahia o ng\u0101 kaiwhakahaere \u0101-iwi i whakat\u016B kia whakam\u0101rama i ng\u0101 mahi a te Sustainable Water Programme of Action. Kua whiwhi \u014D r\u0101tou whakaaro i t\u0113tehi hui i te 31 o H\u0101nuere. Kei ng\u0101 Minita i n\u0101ianei, m\u0101 r\u0101tou hei whakaarohia e ng\u0101 whakautu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe Minister for the Environment has not yet received specific advice from Te Puni K\u014Dkiri officials on this matter. The member will be referring, perhaps, to proposals by a M\u0101ori technical advisory group set up by iwi to facilitate engagement with M\u0101ori under the Sustainable Water Programme of Action. These proposals were passed to officials at a meeting of chief executives on 31 January earlier this year. They have been passed on to Ministers, who will be considering them in due course, at which time a Government response will be provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf916cebeef848c6bfb93df3c8fdbe98\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Madam Speaker. If the Sustainable Water Programme of Action is about sustainability only, why is the Government promoting it with the slogan: \u201CFour million careful owners\u201D, thereby misinforming the public that water is owned by the Crown on their behalf, when the very clear advice from the M\u0101ori reference groups and Te Puni K\u014Dkiri is that M\u0101ori customary rights to water still exist or are, at the very least, contestable in court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022195a08b332764415a1513d0426f99c66\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has been very clear on its position and approach to water\u2014that is, that water is a public resource. A lot of views are currently being considered. The best way for that to be done, proactively, is through the Sustainable Water Programme of Action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d59b6cab867d480788ac767c4c3bcc93\u0022\u003ECharles Chauvel\u003C/span\u003E: What discussions with M\u0101ori have taken place on the Sustainable Water Programme of Action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022384dd88fe1a04e93b54a96b277c6c89d\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to the latest proposals, I can advise that extensive consultation has already taken place with M\u0101ori. Key issues raised by M\u0101ori include the need to act to improve poor water quality, and the need for more robust environment bottom-lines in water allocation processes, more public awareness of the importance of freshwater resources, better incorporation and understanding of M\u0101ori knowledge in management processes, better capacity for M\u0101ori and local government to work together on decision making for water resources, and no privatisation of water resources. Those issues are currently being raised by M\u0101ori and are being considered by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218c4d4cf7aee4811adbe604ce8212f51\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. What is the Minister\u2019s response to the statement that the deliberate Government campaign to blur the issue of water ownership is to create the illusion of Crown ownership of water for the public good so that the Government can be free to sell off water rights to overseas conglomerates as it is doing with chunks of foreshore and seabed, prime coastal properties, and farmland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022869c7c59a99e4d1bac85d09a4f909980\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I can state categorically that the Government\u2019s position is that water is a public resource that the Government and local authorities will continue to manage on behalf of all New Zealanders. Importantly, water is precious to us all and I can advise the member that this Government has no intention of privatising water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f142d93b58c4c1799747ee6bffa001b\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government is so committed to the concept of water being a public resource managed by the Crown on behalf of everyone, what then is the point of an extensive consultation to get advice from M\u0101ori about what it might mean for them, both under their Treaty obligations and under tikanga, and is it simply that these apparently extensive consultations are a sham, when in fact at the end of the day all of that advice will be disregarded by the Government as it makes its decisions based on its already committed view that water is a public resource and is not in the hands of M\u0101ori at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c1b9ee536e40fc9205f045a2e7db9c\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: That is certainly not the starting position of the Government. It is acknowledged that water is a public resource that is precious to us all, and because it is precious to us all we have to find ways to reconcile how that resource can be utilised for the benefit of everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293012bd2111149afbc66f5cf65611978\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that Wakatu and Ng\u0101ti R\u0101rua - \u0100tiawa Iwi Trust had jointly applied for rights to take water from the Motueka Plains aquifer, and does he support claims made by Wakatu chief executive Keith Palmer that landowners should have the first right to the precious resource of Motueka groundwater; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022512cb0239451409ea6639f2a6d9928aa\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the Minister is considering the views of Wakatu at this moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6b6f7fc65144ca7956689120f562298\u0022\u003ELaboratory Services, Auckland\u2014Conflict of Interest\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273d99ec210924174b581fa228bd71e92\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: When did he first become aware that there may be conflict of interest concerns over the greater Auckland district health boards\u2019 consideration of changes to community laboratory services, and what action did he take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002228dda7bce2f549b89b4bb2751207db99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228dda7bce2f549b89b4bb2751207db99\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of State Services)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223363038c26264c19b9a101bb1df9d310\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e3323488d4434a98692225c48ecf1c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I have at least pleased Dr Smith today! The Minister of Health became aware that there might be a conflict of interest in terms of the Auckland laboratory tender on 16 July 2006, when Dr Paul Hutchison asked him a parliamentary question. He was advised by the ministry, which had spoken directly to the Auckland District Health Board, that Dr Tony Bierre, an Auckland District Health Board member, was a shareholder in Labtests Auckland. He was also advised that Dr Bierre had stood down from all board business 6 months prior to the issuing of the community laboratory request for proposal. The Minister provided that advice to Dr Paul Hutchison. However, Justice Asher\u2019s judgment states that Dr Bierre actually stood down on 21 December 2005, some 18 days before the issuing of the request for proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac031a0dda214c17956cc60a01a70023\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What other action has the Minister taken to satisfy himself as to the handling of the conflict of interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314f9b3bf65044dabb16a8d38bd3a5bb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister relied on the information that was provided at the time by the Ministry of Health. He believed in good faith that the information provided was the correct information. What the Minister could not bargain on was that Dr Tony Bierre was prepared to mislead not only the chair and deputy chair of the district health board but all members of the district health board, in terms of his actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022260d26cbdf374cd792bd2ff30753caec\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by the statement in his letter to me, dated 19 July 2006, regarding the tendering of laboratory services: \u201CThose processes need to be transparent and open.\u201D; if so, why did he steadfastly refuse to do his job and take proper oversight of the tendering process in Auckland, a process that he knew on 16 July\u20143 days earlier than that letter\u2014was an inside job riddled with conflict of interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e43d4e507144451289156c8a15896f91\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Of course the Minister believes there ought to be transparency in tenders. That is what is expected, but it is just not possible for the Minister of Health to oversee 16,500 contracts or tenders. No Minister of Health whom I am aware of has taken personal responsibility for tenders and contracts. Those Ministers did not do so under a National Government and they have not under a Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dcc81d3ada7451cbf82319fbd40a243\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister now regret defending to the hilt last year the new provider, in light of the huge public disquiet at the time about both Dr Bierre\u2019s conflict of interest and his proposed slashing of Auckland lab testing services, such as when the Minister told Parliament in October last year that the new provider was \u201Cbuilding a high-quality laboratory service for Aucklanders\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241b308ae30834abd8a126a4bcaf3e895\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister regrets that the appropriate processes that he believed ought to be followed were shown by the judgment not to have been followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022522f6d835e9a456b89ea693824b1f714\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What assurance or advice on the conflict did the Minister seek from each of the three district health board chairs in Auckland, Mr Brown, Kay McKelvie, and Pat Snedden?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a6bcc62e1f449a8065912fab5b80b1\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister received information via the Ministry of Health, which contacted the Auckland District Health Board to ask about the allegations made in the question by Dr Hutchison. The Minister was then assured that the conflict of interest had been dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ccf287762884a83b7c04384ad4044c8\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that a conflict of interest was evident when the chairman of the Auckland District Health Board made very disparaging remarks towards the staff of Diagnostic Medlab; if he does accept that, then why does he not take a leaf out of Dr Cullen\u2019s book and advise the chairman that ethics won, he lost, so he should eat that, and that Wayne Brown should be the recipient of his own advice and go and drive a taxi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226413a754f9ca4680ad567f83bb255389\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is being a little harsh, in terms of decision making. There are more people than Wayne Brown on the district health board. Responsibility rests with the board for the decisions it has made\u2014that is, not with just one member but with the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276c9f3926e884ed4ab348486384559a5\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Further to my previous supplementary question, is that all the Minister did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a86f15b55eab425fa2601ae497adc81c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Until the Minister was made aware of the conflict in the High Court judgment that came out, he believed he had received the appropriate information from the Ministry of Health. However, if he had received the copy of Dr Hutchison\u2019s letter that was provided to Mr Brown, he may well have been a little confused. I happen to have the letter that Dr Hutchison wrote to Mr Brown. It states: \u201CI enclose a copy of the letter from Dr Tony Bierre, a pathologist for whom I personally have great respect. Dr Bierre is well respected nationally. Clearly, he has a conflict of interest in being a member of the Auckland District Health Board. Nevertheless, I would be grateful if you would look at this letter carefully, as I believe having choice is very important. The service is to be tendered on an open-book basis. Thank you for your consideration of this application.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2ae43546d34bbcbf2062623aeb96ef\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying to this House that conflicts of interest were raised not only in a written question on 16 July but also in a question in the House later in July, that there have been numerous newspaper reports of concerns about a conflict of interest in this case, that the Minister has received a large amount of correspondence on this issue, and that all he did to satisfy himself was to ask his ministry officials to make a phone call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283403962b7c74d4a99192c7f69b329a4\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, there was not a question in this Parliament on 16 July. On 16 July a written question was received from Dr Hutchison. A reply was received and given to him on 20 July, and the Ministry of Health provided that information from the district health board. It was a year after Dr Hutchison wrote the letter that he actually asked the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f20b1d865944d3394a276859b0617b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister telling the House that Dr Paul Hutchison knew of a conflict of interest, yet, despite that, instead of recommending to the board that it did not accept any approach from Dr Bierre, passed that approach on and supported the good character of Dr Bierre?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022997e3b8648ba48d79053fb92ab7589d6\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly can confirm that. In his comments, Dr Hutchison has made it clear he is the good guy in this because he said that clearly there was a conflict of interest. However, he did go on to say: \u201CI would be grateful if you would look at this letter\u201D\u2014Dr Bierre\u2019s letter\u2014\u201Ccarefully, as I believe having choice is very important. The service is to be tendered on an open-book basis.\u201D Now Dr Hutchison was, in fact, writing in support of the letter that was attached to his letter, which I also happen to have, and I am prepared to table both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a54e49d2df346a2b98bfa951cf642e2\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: So now that the High Court has turned over a half-billion-dollar contract and has found that her hand-picked district health board chairman disobeyed every common principle of handling a conflict of interest, is the fact that 1.25 million people have no certainty of lab contracts all Dr Paul Hutchison\u2019s fault?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f745276d5e774b5bb136bae4d42ccd34\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously it is not all Dr Paul Hutchison\u2019s fault. In fact, Dr Paul Hutchison is a very honourable member, and he would have written that letter in good faith for his very good friend Dr Tony Bierre. The point I am raising is that there is more to this than has been put out by the National Party, which is prepared to play politics with pathology services in order to make a few political points. For example, in National\u2019s singling out of Wayne Brown and Ross Keenan, members would think those two men have never received appointments from a National Government. In fact both of them were appointed by National, when it was in office, to high positions. That included Ross Keenan, who was made a director of Counties-Manukau Health in October 1999. He was good enough to be appointed by a National Government, but suddenly those two men have become Labour Party lackeys. How did that happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc71f4b48e4430fb00e2fe82ce4ffd7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Having read the judgment of the High Court, does the Minister think that Mr Brown, Kay McKelvie, and Pat Snedden should have signed the Labtests Auckland contract, knowing that Dr Bierre was actively involved in the formation and development of so much of this process, and in light of the High Court saying that that contract should never have been signed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203482802f2104c08ad0a078ebcd536b7\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister stands by the judgment made by the judge and released earlier this week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227317714a2505426a9c018642e838c854\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: If, in future, members of Parliament are aware of this sort of conflict, would the Minister of Health prefer that the matter be brought to his attention rather than be covered up? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022798c8004332147009049bae8dce55c9e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Contributions across the floor are getting out of hand again, and we cannot hear what is being said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e09a9c36d1ca4e839825acd8768bd761\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister would prefer that to happen. However, it took Dr Hutchison a year from when he wrote the letter to Mr Brown\u2014which I will table in a moment\u2014to raise a question. I also have to ask what knowledge Dr Jackie Blue had, because she was also a board member, elected on the same ticket as Dr Bierre, and Dr Bierre has said he was a close friend of Dr Jackie Blue. I would be interested to know what knowledge she had and what she passed on to the National Party, in terms of knowing about that conflict of interest, when she became a member of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9cc9d2e81f743bab24bc5895b4c8f47\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What action does the Minister think Wayne Brown should have taken upon receipt of Dr Hutchison\u2019s letter, and does she agree with the High Court that Wayne Brown did not take the appropriate action and should never have allowed Bierre to make a bid in this area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b9a18f322440d3a697ba61adf14a2b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister believes that Mr Brown, at the time, took the right action. He, in fact, wrote a letter on 8 July to Dr Tony Bierre, in which he stated: \u201CI must record my disappointment\u201D\u2014and this is in the judgment\u2014\u201Cthat this letter is the first time I was aware that your company was involved in negotiations with ADHB. I am advised that you should now be excluded from considerations on lab testing and the current regional process. I draw your attention to the obligations under the Crown Entities Act. Both Acts\u2014the Public Health and Disability Act and the Crown Entities Act\u2014set out very clearly the handling of conflicts of interest.\u201D Mr Brown wrote that letter to Tony Bierre, who then said he was mothballing any laboratory project he had. He did not do so, and continued to mislead Mr Brown. I do not understand why the attack from the National Opposition is against Mr Brown and National is very carefully shielding Dr Tony Bierre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a42b7e83ba8d40bd818b0fcdbab54a53\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why, after the tender process had been approved, Wayne Brown said that Diagnostic Medlab staff \u201Ccan either work for the new company \u2026 or drive a taxi.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed3a7547d8574745bfc95ce8d7460062\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot explain the words of any person. That would have to be explained by the person himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b85eeabc7ca4a20b9fd4b7807b31349\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the High Court judgment in this case, which states: \u201CIf Mr Brown had checked he would have found that Bierre had not abandoned his attempts\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022666a6f641cbf4c06a7cb08f16fb74014\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289a558f953bd473f94025816a0f6dd39\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table Dr Paul Hutchison\u2019s full letter to Mr Wayne Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fa11450a203450fab8ccb0324f46659\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the letter that Dr Tony Bierre sent to Dr Paul Hutchison seeking his support, and a letter that was forwarded on by Dr Hutchison to Mr Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215fee4726d70421d982b64671df00e70\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table Mr Brown\u2019s letter to Dr Tony Bierre, where he sets out that he was very disappointed to find out, for the first time, that Dr Bierre\u2019s company was involved in negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d8973bfcfbf47d7ada64c2f4660e39a\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a letter from the Hon Pete Hodgson, Minister of Health, to myself, dated 19 July 2006, in which he said it was important that laboratory tendering processes were transparent and open\u2014that was 3 days after he knew there was a blatant conflict of interest in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225900c5dc6d774a3da5e856d4818c37bc\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a New Zealand Herald report that quotes Wayne Brown as saying: \u201CThey can either work for the new company \u2026 or drive a taxi.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ea0863943c483096feb1c73ecba8c2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d96b836a68143e5b4ae9ad28752da62\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the ruling from Justice Raynor Asher, in which he points out that the letter I sent to Wayne Brown was both clear and careful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a89667381aad420dbc78d203a9542175\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. I am really tired of members intervening on points of order, as I cannot hear above the normal chatter in the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022420ada51872b480ea00a1e3f82e57a48\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Youth\u2014Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c973165c7ba4d7194ed6fdab431cdc6\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Youth Affairs: He aha ng\u0101 ripoata kua whiwhi e ia m\u014D ng\u0101 whakatutukinga mahi e p\u0101 ana ki te hunga rangatahi M\u0101ori e whai mahi ana?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E[What reports has she received on the performance of M\u0101ori youth in employment?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022264fb7be21e94318b12940a4e0836fb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022264fb7be21e94318b12940a4e0836fb3\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Kua kite au i t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 ripoata e k\u012B ana e kaha e ng\u0101 rangatahi kia whai mahi. He mea tino pai rawa atu t\u0113r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[I have seen one of the reports stating that M\u0101ori youth in employment is strong. That is really wonderful.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI have been advised that the household labour force survey shows that the number of M\u0101ori youth aged between 15 and 19 years in employment increased between 1999 and 2006 by 25 percent. This is a greater increase than the overall change in this age group. Also, these statistics show that the rate of unemployed M\u0101ori youth aged between 15 and 19 years decreased by nearly 20 percent over the same period. This shows a strong commitment by this Government to getting young M\u0101ori people into work, further education, training, or employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a30b48e5a6424235b89d7cf013e3b9d1\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen on progress to reduce the number of M\u0101ori young people receiving the unemployment benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8b661f916904c9cbbda15d22c8efe67\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike this Government, the previous Government did not seem to care about young people. In 1999, when Labour came into Government, the number of M\u0101ori aged between 18 and 19 years who were on the unemployment benefit stood at nearly 6,000, and now there are only 875 M\u0101ori aged between 18 and 19 years on the unemployment benefit. There is a good story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2682e1c123404d85602463a955d573\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member has a relatively strong voice and she is talking quite loudly, but I am having trouble hearing those figures. Can she be asked to repeat them, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f702161d26354c1eb75f0079ed06a293\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I was having trouble at the end, too. The point is that if members make throwaway comments about others that have no relevance to the question, then they can expect to get a response in this House. I ask all members to stick in future to asking and answering them without superfluous comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf44c067ddf14a0491f4a1f0b618d744\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is making a difference in ensuring that young M\u0101ori are actively engaged. In fact, the employment statistics show that when Labour came into office in 1999 the number of unemployed young M\u0101ori aged between 18 and 19 stood at 6,000, and now it is 875. That is a good story that shows that more young M\u0101ori are in work, and more young M\u0101ori are being encouraged to stay in education, or get further training, and get a job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002250a804a026734bc5871dff3dc577cad3\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards, Auckland\u2014Deputy Chairman\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257f9472265d24cae893458c4871701e9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Why was Mr Ross Keenan appointed deputy chairman of the three Auckland district health boards, and does he have confidence in him in those three roles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022f088bd0497f14fcfa388dc7c999ea549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f088bd0497f14fcfa388dc7c999ea549\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of State Services)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: Mr Ross Keenan was appointed by the previous Minister of Health because of his considerable experience in, and knowledge of, the Auckland health sector, including his being a member of what was Counties-Manukau Health from 1999, and also being the chair of the Counties Manukau District Health Board until 2004. He was appointed to carry out the very important task of pulling the three boards together to work collaboratively for the good of the Auckland region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022954c13db2e9b4ce383f6cf10f66c9e1c\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister refused to answer the question about whether she has confidence in Mr Ross Keenan, and I wonder whether she would like to complete her answer, with your indulgence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221968fc45ae2b4a949745995bbfb6f8b4\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: In fact the member asked two questions, and I have the right to answer one. But I am happy to say, on behalf of the Minister of Health, that he has confidence in the role of deputy chair of those three district health boards that Mr Keenan has carried out from 2004. In fact, the National Party urged that there be closer cooperation between the boards, and one of the reasons the previous Minister looked very carefully at having one experienced person in that role across the Auckland region was to help bring those boards together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd882d6b5db47ae986535ebc217edc7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have confidence in Mr Ross Keenan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa5da77c440b457b926388cf21a96e29\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I have confidence in the work that Mr Ross Keenan has done as deputy chair. If the member is asking whether I have confidence in Mr Ross Keenan in relation to the contract that has been overturned, then the answer is the same one I gave yesterday. I believe I will have confidence in the board when I see the services that are provided on 1 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc197a870da2454b8ed36825bfec5526\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Did Mr Keenan make any inquiries as to Dr Bierre\u2019s conflicts of interest when Mr McKernan raised the matter with him in June 2005, or was Mr Keenan too eager to have Dr Bierre involved, as the judgment says, because Mr Keenan thought Dr Bierre\u2019s presence as a board member would support a management view of dealing more aggressively with Diagnostic Medlab?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c851f90c384f4f7287dc1061bdce10b8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am unable to answer that question directly. I believe that the report indicates that Mr Keenan was aware of the conflict of interest, which was raised in around June, but he too believed that that conflict of interest had been handled. He obviously, like Dr Hutchison, had a lot of faith in Dr Bierre, his reputation, and his ability to serve as a board member. He too was, no doubt, influenced by the international and national reputation of Mr Bierre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffbec3e6e37348a2b82b4616aaa951c7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister have expected his appointee, Mr Keenan, to express to board members his concern that Dr Bierre was involved in the Labtests Auckland bid, in light of Mr Keenan\u2019s ongoing correspondence and detailed discussions with Dr Bierre during the formative stages of the laboratory services contracting in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c756fac87e4ba1bebca841e362de4b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There is no doubt that Dr Bierre managed to hoodwink not only Mr Brown and the rest of the board members but also the deputy chair of the three district health boards, because in July 2005 Dr Bierre said he had mothballed any proposals he had. He was taken to be a man of honour and integrity, and as such his word was taken that he had mothballed such proposals. I believe that the chair and the deputy chair had the right to believe that a man\u2019s word was his bond. In this case, it was not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba135ae626c541248abfeb47cd830fda\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any advice on what action his predecessor, Annette King, took to prevent a situation where poor performance by her appointees has resulted in an unprecedented court judgment setting aside a contract worth half a billion dollars, and highlighting the mismanagement performance of her appointees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecbf10c0b6f84edb9728a6c537f43a3a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is interesting that the inappropriate behaviour in this case was not from an appointee of the previous or the current Minister of Health, but from a member of a district health board who was elected on a Citizens and Ratepayers ticket\u2014which is the National Party, as everybody knows. I am amazed that Tony Ryall would be pointing the finger at a member who was elected from his own party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206ef070118e849528bdf4f0312559eef\u0022\u003ESexual Violence\u2014Government Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a50ddec596f34550af927d7df1f4c5b3\u0022\u003ESUE MORONEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Women\u0027s Affairs: What is the Government doing to address sexual violence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4ea125c4c0d4b1094a2178e39df9d8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4ea125c4c0d4b1094a2178e39df9d8f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Women\u0027s Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This week the Government agreed to establish a ministerial group to address the issue of sexual violence. This group will be supported by an expert task force, comprising senior Government officials, non-governmental organisations, and the judiciary. The terms of reference for this group will include providing advice to the Government on how to reduce the incidence and impact of sexual violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2567d3e-a09c-47b4-bd50-2f5bb4049762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221978938e19d740d2bbd0b88b28f1f195\u0022\u003ESue Moroney\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any responses to the announcement; if so, what do they say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022074b3a77beca4648ae1d51ace24071eb\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen reports in which groups who work with the victims of sexual violence say they are pleased that the Government is setting up the task force to deal with this issue, and a number of them will be joining this weekend\u2019s hui on sexual violence organised between the interagency Sexual Violence Project Team and the non-governmental organisation National Network Ending Sexual Violence Together. Progress will be made this weekend on a range of issues, including looking at the provision of services to victims, prevention initiatives and programmes to reduce offending, criminal justice system responses to sexual offending, and how victims are supported through the criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b343be0d96543df853ab67fceb94ca9\u0022\u003ELaboratory Services, Auckland\u2014Consultation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284557e6bb80f475d934f088243cc0da2\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has he seen the finding of Justice Asher that the Auckland regional district health boards had a duty to provide \u201Can informative and explicit outline\u201D of proposed changes to diagnostic laboratory services in the region as a basis for consultation with affected parties, and what explanation has he been given for their failure to do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00229a75f781114144a48b21d33c84a27afd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a75f781114144a48b21d33c84a27afd\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of State Services) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Health: Yes, I have seen paragraph 289 of Justice Asher\u2019s judgment, in which he concluded that the district health boards are not able to present self-imposed time problems as an excuse for a compromise consultation process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd268b3902e42b6a7543c606c234ba3\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Minister become aware that behind the district health boards\u2019 public assertion that they could make $15 million in cost savings was a plan to, in fact, cut services\u2014for example, the plan to change the turn-round time for results of routine lab tests from 12 hours to 48 hours; and does he approve of the board\u2019s contracting for changes of that sort without telling the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220438285739004102b8c17fe7ca597984\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is important that district health boards, or any Government agency, undertake consultation in the manner that has been established. It goes right back to the loss of Air New Zealand v Wellington International Airport, which set out how consultation ought to be undertaken. Those principles are established in the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Act 2000 and the Crown Entities Act 2004, and it is the Minister\u2019s expectation that consultation will be carried out in the manner that has been established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d6e7e1ccf3544218ef313aaa5ccd542\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Minister become aware that part of the $15 million in alleged savings under the lab test proposal involved a plan to shift 50 percent of tests to general practitioners and primary health organisations without compensation\u2014a plan the primary health organisations were unaware of\u2014and does he approve of boards embracing changes of that sort without telling either the public or the affected professionals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022169ff09452f0449186e9c587cd0f538b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear from the judgment that the board had an obligation to ensure that it consulted properly. However, in terms of the member raising issues around cost cutting, and so on, it certainly has been one of the issues in terms of the price of services, to the extent that his colleague Dr Hutchison said on Morning Report that having two contracts would actually keep the price down. So price obviously is an issue for members of this House and taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022370e344c6bdc467b878bde033a1b9c59\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: How could directors appointed by the Minister have decided to change the turn-round times for results for a routine lab test from 12 hours to 48 hours, and tell one of the bidders for a half-billion-dollar contract so that he could pitch his tender accordingly but not tell the other bidder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224708159cbc1f492fbc58f2a95914e953\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not able to explain\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2cfb040fbf4ef0a8ac9b08272e55a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e8232e659764352ac2a50937bf0dede\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what a silly man! He sits right opposite me and we have this constantly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c43829058c5d4c85a91bec50f2c9a936\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please be seated. We will now hear the questions and the answers in silence. This chipping backwards and forwards across the Chamber means that the rest of us cannot hear. Would the Minister please address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f41409e9d39444a1b6bb53b1d7271462\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. While you were on your feet giving that ruling, Nick Smith interjected again. I would just ask how we can be expected to obey your rulings when he will not even listen to them in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223305f9db520f4d1c87c2f80be32eb046\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the questions and answers on this question are not heard in silence, members will be leaving the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a941000f2d384181a4fb985394b1ff01\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: To continue\u2014I said no, I was not able to answer the question the member has raised, at this point. But I am sure the Minister of Health would be happy to answer it next week, the week after, or whenever the member puts it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b112e1ab7440708aaa65d568a5c64e\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that just as the High Court has found that the district health boards had an obligation to be honest and factual in telling the public about plans relating to their laboratory services, the Minister too had an obligation to ensure that the public was treated honestly in those matters; and can the Minister explain how the Minister, having had that information, failed to share it with affected members of the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d03d2a2b83e045ce8e820cf6aa18b1c1\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of any Minister of Health who may have information regarding a contract\u2014whether it is a contract to build a hospital or a contract to provide services\u2014who would go out and disclose information when it was not the Minister\u2019s right to do so. The contracting of services is not done by the Minister of Health, and I cannot think of any occasion when that member was a Minister of any sort where he went out and disclosed a contract that rightly belonged to an agency that should be disclosing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d07f833386a24b219ed027fd35fde661\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have confidence that the same Government appointees who have presided over this massive conflict of interest will suddenly be able to fix this mess and deliver a functioning laboratory service for 1.5 million Aucklanders by 1 July?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227f9e1a054784b629d3057388411bd18\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I will be looking at what the three boards come up with and my confidence in those three boards will hinge on the ability to provide a reliable service by 1 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e45320ef5674d8ea2108b8a097da934\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with his appointee Wayne Brown when he stated in the Dominion Post today: \u201CI\u2019ve done nothing wrong. \u2026 I\u2019ve had the most exceptionally successful career \u2026 I\u2019m certainly the most experienced in the country.\u201D; and was that the level of assurance that the Minister accepted to satisfy himself that the conflict of interest was being dealt with appropriately by the district health board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc08b2abf4b40218e9f8d0ac2169b3b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is quite obvious from the judgment that that is not what Mr Brown accepted. He accepted the word of an elected member of a district health board, Dr Tony Bierre, who\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf8c4428691f4fb8906e4cd7e9e06cf5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I said that this question and answer was to be heard in silence. All those members who were shouting out and making comment, please rise and leave the Chamber. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ERon Mark withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9905cb7306149fdb268ebc03160e898\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have asked members on all sides of the Chamber to identify themselves. Members have. I have to take their word for it, otherwise I will be identifying them next time. Now can we please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e19fb41378f94d29aa0538faf0dd72fc\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I have answered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8ea535cfad647f1b6d125048bd45ab6\u0022\u003EDaylight Saving\u2014Government Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf12f491ac844dea42ec6362daa6b67\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does the Prime Minister\u2019s statement that she supported extending daylight saving at the end of the summer represent Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b74b5c7e4ff54c28ba326d8f12c28363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b74b5c7e4ff54c28ba326d8f12c28363\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Not yet, but in my experience a statement of prime ministerial preference is often a good indicator of likely policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288728406323f40b58b01f611216dd1f5\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What assurance can the Prime Minister give that when the Government returns from overseas, the 42,000 people who have signed this petition will have their wish for extended daylight summer hours honoured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225347e12a89b24a9594c378da77591bd0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that the Prime Minister returns on Sunday afternoon. I do not expect the process of Government policy development or consultation to be complete within that space of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234e209602d6347ad92aa122f5db92061\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister working towards having New Zealanders enjoy longer daylight saving in the coming summer; if so, notwithstanding the fact that she is overseas at the moment, when can a decision be expected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb1fdbbf5bf94e26a31542e5b1613573\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, there is a process to be gone through, in terms of both internal consultations and external consultations. There are a range of issues to be considered, but I would certainly hope that any decision could be made in time for the coming summer season. The main barrier, I understand, is the Deputy Prime Minister, who is concerned about the impact of darkness at 6.30 in the morning in late March on his going out on the golf course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b6476d73a7c45b2811bc93eed06b963\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister assure the House that the engine room of our economy\u2014namely, the primary production sector\u2014will be properly consulted before any extension to daylight saving is considered by the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149de3e143a746789cf2ad6bc51bfe2d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed. I think it is fair to say that this time round, compared with some previous rounds, the farming sector\u2014including the dairy sector, which is probably the sector most affected\u2014has shown much less concern than has been the case in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7c876dd212d4bd0b410f07c33a4f4a9\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Qualification Format\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c45adf249e84784a8b489f52cd8e5a3\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Why is he \u201Cleaning towards\u201D listing \u201CNot Achieved\u201D on National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) students\u2019 qualifications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022426babc0bf774baeaaf0dc88fc47e900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022426babc0bf774baeaaf0dc88fc47e900\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Education: Yesterday the Minister reported that 168 recommendations from the 2005 reviews of NCEA had already been addressed, though he is still considering further changes to the design. One of these is reporting the standards that students have attempted and failed to achieve. The Minister is expecting a report on possible changes, including in respect of this issue, this weekend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6d424d38db9471ca385ce788dcbd784\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Minister have his road to Damascus experience that led him to lean towards reporting \u201CNot Achieved\u201D on a Record of Learning, because in September 2006 he dismissed the idea, saying: \u201CThere\u2019s no place on such a list for the things that people have not yet attained, or perhaps not even attempted.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc4a4b51f1b74211b4aee58babc6c8d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that externally assessed standards already carry a \u201CNot Achieved\u201D on students\u2019 results notices. The information now is that that should be extended to internal assessment. What has emerged in the interim is a concern that if there is not a clear listing of \u201CNot Achieved\u201D then employers in particular, and others, do not have any idea about what standards people actually are not capable of achieving, as opposed to those that they have sat and achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022362c840f907f4d4f8ddcb6e67608c0ad\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that a school that offers the full range of NCEA subjects but also allows selected students to sit up to two Cambridge International Examinations papers at year 11, or one paper at year 12, is demonstrating a rejection of the NCEA system, as suggested by a recent New Zealand Herald article?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206afd8ebe3cf42519bbf0d91f9f13eac\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, clearly that is not necessarily a rejection at all of NCEA but merely an acknowledgment that there are other purposes for which one might want to sit a limited range of the Cambridge International Examinations. It is worth reminding ourselves that the name is somewhat misleading. This has nothing to do with the old entrance examinations for Cambridge University. The sort of elitism that is now being applied to this qualification is completely misplaced in terms of its standards and content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b0b2d234174406903f131c541c36b0\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: How credible was he when last September he said that failure had no place in the reporting of standards-based assessment or on the Record of Learning, yet last night he said he was leaning towards deciding to put such failure on a student\u2019s Record of Learning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f23efe6f5a884652b991e3e494bbe1bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, one of the elements of standards-based achievement is that sometimes one can resit and achieve the standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022decd3a77c4b34228b26cde2d7237e040\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the decision to include unit standards in NCEA credits, which was not in accordance with the original proposals, has enhanced the credibility of NCEA assessments in the eyes of the public, who are, after all, the ultimate users of NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f069c67cad747fe955486e138b30728\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I am particularly aware of the contribution that member has made to a discussion on the development of the whole NCEA system, which was, of course, begun\u2014let us recognise\u2014under the previous National Government, and most of the changes introduced were, in fact, in response to concerns about a dumbing down of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ecb2a1d518444ae98c319c6e327124c\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: What has made the Minister change his mind on the fundamental issue of reporting failure, because it looks like he has crumbled in the face of political pressure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cdf16c351754f3d82af857c83af610c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, students\u2019 results notices already carry a \u201CNot Achieved\u201D for an externally assessed standard. The question is whether it goes on the Record of Learning, as the member rightly implies. I think what has happened is it is very clear that there is a degree of public concern if the \u201CNot Achieved\u201D element is able to be entered on the Record of Learning. Therefore, the acceptability of the system, which is a very good system and much better than the Cambridge International Examinations system for New Zealand purposes, needs to be looked at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f09623d331c4932a187ab2722137646\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is panicking and ringing up schools to ask what it will take to stop further defections; if not, why are not his officials keeping him informed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ea2cd771984e5483c9d61554730b18\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot confirm that. Perhaps the member should note the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is not responsible for the design features of NCEA; it is a Ministry of Education responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d321a0467f450b9cc04ed38d57e5f8\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: How credible is it to talk about increasing the reporting of failure, when the Minister\u2019s officials hand out information to principals asking the question whether they are avoiding predictable failure where possible, which is code for avoiding kids sitting external exams?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dac5022ab8245f6814cbab20b0e5dc2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022260713bdcf534013886779cb49b2f69f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846dd8860826430085dbbbe9732f4827\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is rather akin to suggesting there is not much point in Dr Smith sitting an examination on literacy, because he is doomed to fail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237ffab8d322940bea003bc5807b6d7f8\u0022\u003EAnnual Leave\u20141 April 2007 Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc31fe9263a04802b4185360cbdfa0a9\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What changes are being made to annual leave on 1 April this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5bfbe615da64b87af8c88bdbcda1332\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5bfbe615da64b87af8c88bdbcda1332\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased that as of 1 April New Zealand workers will be entitled to a minimum of 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave. This extra break will give New Zealanders more time to spend with their families and friends, and to enjoy a well deserved rest. I am advised that 820,000 workers will benefit from this Government policy\u2014a policy that I note the National Party opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f28a5a59481445f4bb0e675267791de6\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any other proposed changes to New Zealanders\u2019 annual leave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262825ea7871742c6a9c7fd558b7fedf4\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, actually, I have. I have seen a report that states: \u201CHe\u2019\u2019\u2014referring to the Hon Dr Michael Cullen\u2014\u201Cshould be reeling in talks of union-friendly changes to the Employment Relations Act and dumping the looming election bribe of an extra week\u2019s paid holiday.\u201D That statement was from John Key in 2004. But he now says that he will let workers keep their extra week of holiday. With yet another flip-flop from the current leader of the National Party, it is hard to imagine how anyone could trust him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022516700fbc6604541a2b419ff6604c9ff\u0022\u003ECorrections, Department\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022586f7fb0602c4f2692ae7901a03881c1\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he have confidence in his department; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00225f1e9f3e98a7446284272bd66676dea1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f1e9f3e98a7446284272bd66676dea1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, but there is always room for improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225284cc6b0eee4cd2841dc7b069ee5700\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister continue to stand by his claim that corruption amongst prison staff is not widespread and is not rife, when Barry Matthews said yesterday: \u201CWe\u2019ve got a big problem \u2026 at Rimutaka, but we\u2019ve got some indications we could have it wider than Rimutaka,\u201D, when he has asked managers to do some \u201Csniffing around\u201D, and when he cannot \u201Cgive any absolute guarantees that everywhere else is hunky dory,\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225a9c23a98744ed6849af955e582decd\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Any accusations of corruption are a big problem, and we treat them very seriously. We have an investigation under way at Rimutaka Prison. We have stood down some prison officers. We will continue to take such action wherever we have indications of such inappropriate behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279a7c6650088461eb593b4222a734549\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s answer to the principal question and in the light of recent events, can the Minister advise the House whether the degree of improvement that is required is more than, less than, or about the same as, when he first answered this question some weeks ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022099fb786f1854b85a09d76aa381cbe64\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I think more improvement is always better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f934fd5bb18649c99ccc028134cd1c82\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister\u2019s chief executive, Barry Matthews, reject claims that his department is a shambles when Mr Matthews admitted to the media yesterday that there have been instances where the first a probation officer knew that a prisoner was being released into the officer\u2019s area was when the prisoner turned up at the officer\u2019s door and said: \u201CHi, I\u2019ve just been released from prison.\u201D; and what other word would the Minister use to describe a department that relies on the goodwill of prisoners for it to do its job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e0167992c704d218e52e1319fef6a22\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The chief executive has advised me that no one on parole was in this position. He is aware of one situation, more than 2 years ago, when one low-risk offender, released on conditions, was not met by a parole officer. Since then, we have tightened up considerably, including having better liaison between the probation service and the prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204fe35d831744c39aba0b70b75db2db6\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: What are the Minister and his department doing to investigate claims of corruption in New Zealand prisons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2882a031de40a594db7bfdd42e71db\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We move immediately on any such claims. We have appointed a head office internal investigation team to chase down any allegations of suspected corrupt activities. We have eight new corrections intelligence-gathering units as part of a new crime prevention information capability. The Government is looking at possible amendments to legislation to strengthen the hand of the Department of Corrections in dealing with contraband. This may include greater penalties. We cannot afford to have our hard-working and dedicated staff tainted by the actions of a few.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5dc4bd74bb5465a8e96aed6528cf73c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why did Barry Matthews deceive his staff when he emailed them in May last year, stating that the review of head office was \u201Cnot about cutting costs or reducing staff numbers\u201D, in spite of an internal memo earlier that month stating that one of the aims was to outline where staff numbers could be reduced, and when he confirmed yesterday, through a press release, that some staff will lose their jobs\u2014and will he be first on the block?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989f8b9e2a414fc79b59162889d7b212\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Barry Matthews does not deceive staff. The review of head office is to better align the responsibilities between all the different areas of the Department of Corrections to ensure that there are no gaps and that we minimise any opportunity for mistakes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221510989a3244a30b432e2c7aba18c44\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that this is the third time in less than 2 months that he and Barry Matthews have disagreed publicly, with disagreements including a public disagreement over whether there should be an investigation into corruption by guards at Rotorua District Court and another about whether the Burton fiasco required changes to the Parole Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d3a118905a435e9e0756fb1654f0f6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Although Barry Matthews and I might disagree on occasions, we are both very clear on the responsibilities we have in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d088aff788da408bb4b2db49bd3c3464\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his statement to the House last week that consultation with Barry Matthews and his department regarding the Prime Minister\u2019s changes to parole were \u201Ctaking place at this moment\u201D, after Mr Matthews had previously stated he was not aware of any changes to the Parole Act; if so, why was the department that manages parolees and the services of the Parole Board consulted so late in the piece, if it were not for the fact that the Prime Minister has given up on the department and this Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266613a0162ac43ebb7725644ad3e7ad1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Decisions around parole are not the sole responsibility of the Department of Corrections. Those decisions have to be made following consultation. It is the department\u2019s responsibility to carry out changes if and when they occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f98e7932222a40fb8bd92c8b2082f94d\u0022\u003EWellington Inner-city Bypass\u2014Time Savings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244f460250087469f800beb87afe20c69\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Is she confident that Transit New Zealand\u2019s projected 7 to 9-minute peak-hour time savings will be delivered to motorists when the Wellington inner-city bypass opens this weekend; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022d30f55afa1964731953adc81c8121fb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d30f55afa1964731953adc81c8121fb8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Transit New Zealand has advised me that while the second phase of the inner-city bypass will be open this Sunday, there is ancillary work to be done to complete the project and ensure delivery of its full benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022047485df1a3e4c4ca935cb730ac2c7ab\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that Transit used wildly inflated estimates of 7 to 9 minutes at peak time, including in sworn testimony to the Environment Court, to beef up the cost-benefit ratios and justify building the bypass, but now that it is built, it is frantically backtracking and refusing to say whether there will be any time savings at all; and will she therefore agree to an independent post-construction audit as to whether the projected time savings promised by Transit have materialised; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229898ff74d0d84634889fa7a8c13539ab\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot confirm any of the things the member has said, and I have no evidence that it has backtracked from anything. The point I have just made is that Transit has said that on Sunday when it is opened there will still be ancillary services to be completed. The member may be interested in some of those services. For example, the provision of dedicated pedestrian and cyclist facilities is something the Greens wanted included in the bypass. Also, dedicated bus routes are part of the bypass. All of those innovations are there to help the flow of traffic. They will not be completed until May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f719fa024787474a8cfb1b0b62802eac\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the evidence that the Minister did not seem to think she had, where a Transit expert in traffic analysis said to the Environment Court that a journey across the city would save at least 6 minutes and up to 15 minutes in the busiest time, and from the former of Minister of Transport Pete Hodgson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4ce557c35784f39a11204a3746d95af\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. In my answer I was not talking about what was in the application. The member made accusations about what Transit had said subsequent to that. I said that, no, I could not confirm the accusations the member was making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a661654da64573b571cf2355e184b4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order; it is a clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed046ecdc1054a73ae737943f9f8db23\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a statement by the Transit project engineer for the bypass, in which she says: \u201CI\u2019m not going to say it will save x number of seconds or hours, but it will make driving in New Zealand more efficient.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c85124473f4466c8dea201afcc534d4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da9e4273847d4ba4b77fc00e0a21ebd1\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: What recent decisions taken by the Government\u2019s Land Transport funding agency benefit Wellington commuter rail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022258707d8e6ea4be188e2c61022e4437a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Land Transport New Zealand has approved funding for a considerable rail network in Wellington, including 58 replacement electric multiple units. It made that decision in December, and a further decision was made in February for another 12 units. There has been a lot of investment into the Wellington region in terms of building up passenger transport. This Government can be proud of the fact that there has been a 750 percent increase in funding into public transport since Labour became the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f883b02e6549fdbc1aaade8000d902\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister have even a shred of confidence left in Transit when her own advisory group said that additional costs for the project it evaluated were not fully justified, that information provided does not demonstrate a robust process of evaluation for the additional expenditure that Transit was spending, that decision making in relation to scope and project definition had not always had the robust scrutiny that one might have expected, that value for money was not even identified as a key objective in any of the Ministry of Transport\u2019s statements of intent, and\u2014my personal favourite\u2014that the change in project evaluation criteria away from using a benefit-cost ratio means that Transit New Zealand now has less incentive to contain project costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226b935ccfbb74088814eed0c8eb5f93a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: That was the view of the ministerial advisory group set up by the Ministry of Transport. It is one view. I think there are other members\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e0a544662fc4c8c8af0b89810c323e9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. When the member asked his question it was heard in silence. He is now interrupting constantly, so we cannot hear the answer. Would he please just enable the Minister to address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a13e9467ab4af9bde796a9acfe0af6\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The ministerial advisory group set up by the Ministry of Transport has provided one view. There are some very good points made in it. As the member is aware, I have established a review of the Ministry of Transport, Transit, and Land Transport New Zealand. I think it is appropriate to look at the next steps, because the Government is keen on getting value for money, and the taxpayers are keen on value for money. It would be unfair to say that Transit has not, in general, done a good job\u2014particularly in meeting the needs of local communities. Some of those local communities, including members of this House, have had some responsibility in terms of projects and how they have turned out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac08cb91946c41b3b0e91f62822e0203\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister of Transport tell the House what she will be doing on the Kapiti Coast on Saturday in order to assist with peak-hour time savings for the region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234543a4009c64a3ba76e81f77885b702\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, I acknowledge the efforts of the member for Otaki and my colleague Winne Laban in their advocacy for the opening we will have on Saturday, which is Mackays Crossing. It will make traffic move more smoothly up the Kapiti Coast and it is welcomed by many people who live in that area. I also note, however, that there are members in the Opposition who criticised the project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab7132c9ae54227b5af04f6d750f02d\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the chair of the Wellington Regional Council transport committee, Terry McDavitt, that the bypass is causing, and will continue to cause, traffic chaos on Te Aro flat and that there is no way of fixing this, because of inherent problems in the design of the bypass; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ec3102ab354bae9a34d304fbecadfb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot agree with those comments, and I will not be prepared to agree with them until I see the problems he has identified at this stage\u2014when part of the project is open\u2014continuing into the fully operational project. Then there would be an issue to be raised. But it is not fully operational and will not be fully operational until May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e307db0ca3914d02b2e5afb5d25965c1\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table something from the Transit New Zealand website that states: \u201CPeople travelling across the city will save 7 to 9 minutes during the busiest peak hours\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7e08d655e5746f08c6c69155ff1d5ac\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022981ae94632334e509335dd17404c87ad\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document in which Terry McDavitt warns that the snarl-ups and problems on the route will not be able to be solved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5af075a70bb4f3eaf7a8c9eec64f89a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022440ddae6742e493ba60f6e70de03f64b\u0022\u003EHousing New Zealand Corporation\u2014Subletting of State Houses\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ab045aabf0a4e479c8a955fc2be42bf\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Does he stand by the statement made on his behalf yesterday that \u201Cthe subletting of State houses is not tolerated \u2026 Where there are allegations of it they are investigated and appropriate action is taken.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5ee2e13b8f8412cbf314a48f222cf62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5ee2e13b8f8412cbf314a48f222cf62\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294d30a6bf8c445d2b8c37f24af3d7d13\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister stand by that statement, when the Housing New Zealand Corporation told the Social Services Committee that 42 cases of alleged subletting were reported to it in the first part of this financial year but only 25 cases were investigated; why were only 50 percent of the cases investigated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4285de4aabe4adaade9d8ee45edb60e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, that has to be put into context. The Housing New Zealand Corporation participates in 66,000 tenancies. The number that the member has referred to is, in proportion to the total, very tiny. None of the 48 cases he has just referred to are the same, and they cannot be compared with each other. Some of them are cases where tenants have moved out, others are cases where tenants have gone into prison, and there are some other circumstances. It is not as simple as subletting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac0040d35f354efaa75ec7472b773af5\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What process does the corporation follow when it receives allegations of subletting? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c8608f9331949db8330f4fe1eedf4bd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Cases where Housing New Zealand Corporation staff have a reasonable suspicion that subletting may be occurring are referred to the corporation\u2019s investigation team for a formal investigation to establish the facts. Between 1 July 2005 and 28 February 2007, nationally there were only 23 cases in which, as a result of a formal investigation process, the corporation concluded that subletting had occurred. I remind the House again that we have 66,000 tenancies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022249366dd3a754b9abedbbe2343109754\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Further to the statement made on the Minister\u2019s behalf yesterday that the Housing New Zealand Corporation allocation policy \u201Cshould look after the needs of New Zealanders first,\u201D why is the principle of looking after New Zealanders first nowhere to be found in the Housing New Zealand Corporation principles pertaining to the allocation of housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245fe729ae8c64c50b344989b05c8f8e0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the member to expand a little bit more on his question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6b1d9ae1ac84d3fa44ba4664d176ec0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member like to do that, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4f5e3b331a24b9b82668d7f22f083c2\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday my original question alluded to the fact that New Zealand First was not quite sure whether tenants of the Housing New Zealand Corporation were likely to be New Zealanders or non - New Zealanders; the question was whether, in fact, New Zealanders were given special preference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea7ace52425947d2ade030172a255764\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No tenant of the Housing New Zealand Corporation can be a non - New Zealander. A tenant can be either a resident of New Zealand or a citizen. Our refugee intake each year is put into Housing New Zealand Corporation houses, but, of course, those people get a residence stamp when they come to this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224325017d71c24449887252142b6aa23d\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question today was if that is the case, why is reference to New Zealanders being housed first not included in the list of principles articulated by the ministry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6322622d21431d9a4c6bedacb841a8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely implicit, because a person has to be a resident or a citizen of New Zealand to get a Housing New Zealand Corporation house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b8f1ed23b9e40eda26fd9a6ec28fbbd\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister have the confidence to say that subletting rorts are extremely rare, when Housing New Zealand Corporation staff are not picking up such scams during routine inspections, and are investigating only half of those that are dobbed in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301568028be44398bc8ac3431f22a077\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member can come up with any cases that we have not picked up, I would be very grateful for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1a51898e76f483e8a745ddfa723586c\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give us the details\u2014as he is keen to break his own privacy rules on the scam involving subletting for 4 years\u2014of the South Auckland tenant who rented out a State house for 2 years and the Hutt Valley tenant who rented one out for 15 months, both of whom were eventually evicted? How much money did they make, and what other details are there around them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc0718df703b4c9497207fa4b009102d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted to hear the member acknowledge that the Housing New Zealand Corporation has removed the tenancies of the particular individuals he has just mentioned. Should he care to put a written question down to me, I am sure that question can be answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224796b25b44f446ffae596e39104bc54e\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister regret last year describing the pursuit of subletting scamsters as a wild-goose chase and a waste of his staff\u2019s time, in light of revelations that, by the Housing New Zealand Corporation\u2019s own admission, dozens of State houses are being illegally sublet for cash for months and years at a time; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d1412270d64c9eb35303b643c80119\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The member seems to have a very strange view of quantities. I remind the House again that between 1 July 2005 and 28 February 2007 only 23 cases, out of 66,000 tenancies, resulted in tenants losing their tenancies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205d0ff8b90c14e3386bc19363b247bb2\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Who is telling the truth: the Housing New Zealand Corporation, which told the Social Services Committee that it has investigated only half the scams dobbed into the corporation; or the Minister, who says that it investigates all the scams dobbed into it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b7e0ef3cd044203888b5458b4ad77d2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the House again that this member has a record of distorting the words of officials. Again, subletting has to be seen in context: some tenants just leave, others go to jail, and some die. We do not pursue in the courts people who have died.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f768f9d954094b5da8abedb777801ae3\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table Social Services Committee documents wherein the Housing New Zealand Corporation states it has investigated only 25 of the 42 cases of alleged subletting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253d0f1596ebe49e7a76813504dcc4bf9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240cee6a9fe50425683b2bfe21999b02e\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the Housing New Zealand Corporation principles pertaining to the allocation of housing wherein there is no reference to looking after New Zealanders first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b308564f34bd4c09b42a7a8dfafca5a1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002256714f0963f0437f8049d281543d7947\u0022\u003EStudent Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220df16733c1324d888eb41ecf1ef42548\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0a4077f984149a3ac3dd0e7fdd3a77e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0a4077f984149a3ac3dd0e7fdd3a77e\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. The purpose of this bill is to remove the barriers to borrowers who are overseas returning to New Zealand, and to ensure that all borrowers receive their correct entitlements under the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ETo ensure greater compliance amongst borrowers who are overseas, the bill introduces targeted measures to make it easier for this group to pay their student loans. In so doing, the bill will help to remove a potential disincentive to skilled New Zealanders returning home. For this group the main changes include the introduction of a repayment holiday of 3 years for borrowers going overseas. This measure acknowledges the reality that it is not always easy for people to repay their loans while they are having their OE. For borrowers who are overseas and not taking a repayment holiday, the bill introduces progressive repayment obligations based on the size of their loan balances. Interest-free loans for people studying overseas will be extended to undergraduates studying full-time at bachelor degree level. This will apply only to an existing loan they had before leaving New Zealand, and it does not mean that people will be able to take out a loan for study that is undertaken overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E The amnesty on penalties declared last year for non-resident borrowers who are in arrears with their payments will be extended by 1 year, to 31 March 2008. The purpose of that is to allow borrowers who are identified in the proposed data-matching between the Inland Revenue Department and the New Zealand Customs Service to come within the amnesty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe second group of changes contained in the bill apply to all borrowers, whether in New Zealand or overseas. The purpose of these changes is to update the legislation so that it is consistent with the intent of the interest-free student loan provisions, which came into effect from April last year. Data matching between the Inland Revenue Department and the New Zealand Customs Service will be introduced, thus making it easier for the department to identify who is overseas, and to ensure that only those entitled to interest-free loans actually receive them. The late payment penalty will reduce from 2 percent a month to 1.5 percent a month. The hardship provisions in the Student Loan Scheme Act are being amended to give the Inland Revenue Department greater flexibility in administering them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFor overseas borrowers to qualify for an interest-free loan on the basis that they are working overseas as volunteers, or for token payment as the employee of a charitable organisation, this bill provides that the borrowers must establish that the organisation applies its funds to one or more specified charitable purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFinally, to protect the integrity of the tax system an administrative amendment to the Tax Administration Act is being made to ensure that care and management provisions apply to the Student Loan Scheme Act in relation to interest, as well as to repayment obligations. As a package, these changes will make it easier for borrowers to comply with their loan obligations and for the Inland Revenue Department to administer the student loan scheme fairly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn bringing this bill to the House for its third reading, I acknowledge those who have contributed to its successful passage thus far. They include the policy officials and the drafters, who have worked on the detail of the legislation; the members of the public and the tertiary education organisations that made submissions on the proposed legislation; and, finally, the Education and Science Committee for its consideration of the bill and for the recommendations it has made for improvement of the finer points of detail. I now have great pleasure in commending the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2) to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022c58895e1936745cb953cc5a2dc41718a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c58895e1936745cb953cc5a2dc41718a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2). National is supporting the bill because we feel it is very important to help student loan borrowers living overseas to return to New Zealand, wherever possible. But this is a very complex bill, and that point was outlined by the Law Society in its submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Labour Government made the bill even more complex when it brought in its $1.5 billion-a-year interest-free student loan scheme. That gave students a clear incentive not to let the Inland Revenue Department know when they were out of the country. This is the sort of thing that Dr Cullen and Labour just did not think about when they brought in that legislation\u2014or maybe they did think about it but just did not care. In fact, one would suggest that Dr Cullen and the Labour Government would have been prepared to sell their souls to win the last election. Certainly, they were prepared to show extraordinary largesse with New Zealand taxpayers\u2019 money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely correct that the Education and Science Committee worked very well on this bill\u2014although I was not there for very much of it\u2014and I certainly heard about the excellent chairmanship of Brian Donnelly. The bill was unusual in that it was the first-ever Inland Revenue Department bill to be brought before that select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is important to reiterate some of the aims of this bill, fairly carefully. The first is to introduce an affordable repayment regime for overseas-based borrowers. The emphasis should be on an affordable repayment regime, because we certainly have heard about some students who have mounted up huge debts, and some of those students have slipped off overseas and had a wonderful old time. I look at the tan on Moana Mackey, and wonder whether that is the residue of her trips to Colorado, and other places like that, and whether she is still paying off her loan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d5350b2247461cb2a222447c6e723c\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: She always looks as good as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2268d67923347688cd14648b8865d41\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: She does, indeed. One must try to make sure that there is a sense of reality about the affordability of this scheme, and that, again, is one of the reasons why National is supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe second aim of the bill is to give overseas borrowers who have not been meeting their repayment obligations the chance of a fresh start by extending the current amnesty to 31 March 2008. It is very important, once again, to stress the basic philosophy that the people of New Zealand are our most valuable resource, and we do want to do everything possible to encourage our brightest and best to return here to work in New Zealand, to live in New Zealand, and to increase the productivity of this country\u2014which is so sadly lacking under this Labour Government. It will take bright, well-trained, educated, young New Zealanders coming back with a huge amount of enthusiasm and energy to overcome the decreases in productivity caused by this Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe often hear stories from parents that all of their children have left New Zealand. I was talking to one of my constituents just last weekend. Four of that person\u2019s children are now living in Western Australia, and that person is pretty sad about this. I think we all realise what a wonderful country this is, and what wonderful opportunities we have, yet we have seen this huge exodus over the last 6 to 7 years, to the extent that 10 times more New Zealand graduates live overseas than do Australian graduates. That has to be an indictment on the basic policy settings of this Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other issue about the aims of this bill is that although the new repayment rules have been designed to cover the situation of the majority of borrowers\u2014those who return to New Zealand after a short OE\u2014they do mean there will be lengthy repayment periods for some long-term absentees. We are told that the Inland Revenue Department will continue to recommend to borrowers that they make voluntary payments so that they save themselves interest and retire their debt earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is very important that the students who take out these loans understand the conditions of the loan and the consequences of it. The Inland Revenue Department stated that it will look at ways to make it easier for borrowers to make repayments from overseas, such as by establishing bank accounts in foreign countries and by offering different repayment choices, such as a table mortgage type of arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe department went on to state that many repayment options are not possible due to the department\u2019s current information technology system constraints. It was quite a revelation when one of the department\u2019s commentators pointed out that the information technology system that that department uses is the one it had in 1992. That system is starting to reel and croak under the tremendous pressure it is getting from the various machinations of the Labour Government, the latest ones being the KiwiSaver scheme, the international tax regulations that it has just whipped in\u2014much to the fury of many New Zealanders who are serious investors\u2014and, of course, the Working for Families package. One does indeed wonder whether the department is saying that its information technology systems are constrained. Surely, it should be thinking about that, and surely the Labour Government, after 7 years, should be thinking about something as fundamental as the department\u2019s information technology systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is important to point out that everyone agrees that data matching is reasonable. Even the Law Society said that, in its view, data matching was quite appropriate, that civil liberties issues were not encroached on because of it, and that it was purely a way to recognise the fact that something like 40,000 New Zealanders who had taken up loans were overseas and the department was not aware of them. It was pointed out that a sample data match with the Customs Service suggested that, once this scheme was going, nearly 90 percent of student loan borrowers crossing the border would be identified. Well, 10 percent will still get away with it. That is a substantial number. Ten percent of 40,000 is about 4,000 a year. That leads one to worry as to how well the Labour Government organises such very important departments as the Inland Revenue Department. The department itself is breaking into a cold sweat over the constraints of its information technology machines, and here it is admitting that it will not be able to track down at all something like 4,000 students a year, even after this bill is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is important to reiterate what the student loans scheme itself has done. In essence, it has ensured that the number of people accessing tertiary education in New Zealand has pretty well doubled, if not come close to trebled, over the last 15 years. That has made a very significant contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI thought it was interesting yesterday when Brian Donnelly said he was a little concerned that some of those 40,000 students might have just forgotten, as they slipped across the border, that they had obligations to the Inland Revenue Department. As I pointed out, technically that is known as denial. It is clear-cut denial. It is very important that students realise that there are reciprocal responsibilities associated with the great privilege it is to embark on tertiary education. National supports this bill, but is concerned about the complexities of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u00222f552730dd7644c682c84633b258a11f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f552730dd7644c682c84633b258a11f\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to stand up and support the third reading of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2) that is before us today. I thank the Minister of Revenue, the Hon Peter Dunne, who brought this bill to the House; the Education and Science Committee, of which I am a member, which worked on this bill; its chairperson, the Hon Brian Donnelly; and also, of course, the officials who helped us with the questions raised by submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn terms of student loan bills, I think this bill is relatively straightforward. As we can see, there seems to be quite wide consensus in the House that it is a good step forward. In particular, I support the amnesty period being extended. I personally know a lot of people for whom it took a while to find out about the amnesty, to hear about it. Often, disseminating that information to people who are living overseas, even through their family members, can take some time. It is a good idea to extend the amnesty so that those who are overseas and who have not been making the payments they are legally required to make can come back to the Inland Revenue Department in New Zealand, put those arrangements in place, and not suffer huge penalties because of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe certainly know that when people go overseas and start to accrue a large number of penalties, that becomes a very good reason for making the decision not to come back to New Zealand. They have to pay off not only their student loans but the interest on those loans, plus large amounts in penalties. This step will make a big difference to what I believe we all want to achieve in this House\u2014that is, to assist graduates, for whom the taxpayers of New Zealand have paid a large amount of money to educate, to come back to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EAs we go through this debate, it is important for members in this House not to get too caught up in the fact that people will leave New Zealand from time to time to work overseas. We actually want that. We want people to be able to go overseas and get a broad range of experience. In some areas, such as medicine and scientific research, it is incredibly useful for New Zealand scientists, New Zealand doctors and nurses\u2014in fact, any health professionals\u2014to go overseas and learn from what is being done in other countries and then bring that knowledge back to New Zealand. We are well aware that other countries use New Zealand in that regard, as well. Of course, the Education and Science Committee also has the privilege of looking at many of the scientific organisations in New Zealand, and we certainly find that our Crown research institutes are held in very high regard internationally. Many of them get a large, continual flow of overseas scientists coming in to study all the great things we are doing in New Zealand, particularly in terms of nuclear and geological sciences, and agricultural sciences. So I think it is very easy to get caught up with the fact that people leave; what we need to be concerned with in this House is how we can make it as easy as possible for those graduates, in whom we have put an awful lot of investment, to come back to New Zealand and to use their knowledge for the benefit of the New Zealand economy and all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI am also incredibly supportive of making it easier for students overseas to repay their loans, because when students are paying off loans in New Zealand, payment is based on the students\u2019 incomes\u2014it is a percentage of their incomes. Well, that can be quite difficult to manage when they are overseas, making sporadic payments, and trying to work out how much they have to repay according to the interest and the exchange rate. It might take a bit longer if they are trying to send cheques home. Something might happen and the exchange rate might change, and we can see how some people might just simply think that they will take the risk of not repaying the money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI take on board the point that Dr Paul Hutchison made. People might know that they have to make these repayments, but I certainly do not think that they necessarily know the process, the consequences, or the level of penalties if they do not make them. That is not necessarily the information they are given when they head overseas. So moving to a system where a student\u2019s repayment for a year is based on the size of the student\u2019s loan is, I think, very sensible. One of my friends who has a student loan, and who lives in the UK, came back for a wedding recently. She said that this system would make it a lot easier for her to plan the repayment of her loan. She has already taken advantage of the amnesty. She said that now she can see a clear path to returning to New Zealand\u2014which I think is really the purpose of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EA number of other changes have been made in this bill. The data matching between the Inland Revenue Department and the Customs Service, I think, is very sensible. The committee had some concerns about what that data could be used for, and about making sure that once student loans had been paid off those details were no longer used. We were certainly satisfied in that respect\u2014that all use of that data was going to be appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhenever student loan legislation comes into the House I always find the attitude towards students very, very interesting. There tends to be a kind of attitude that students and young people in general cannot be trusted, and if they are given anything, well, they are just going to rort it. Certainly, that was the attitude we experienced towards Labour\u2019s policy of interest-free student loans, which is a policy that many of us in the Labour Party, particularly those of us who came through the youth section, had been lobbying for, for a very, very long time. Having a large number of people in the Labour Party, and in the Labour Party caucus, who have had student loans, we knew that it was the interest on those loans that made repayment most difficult. There were a whole lot of other issues, as well, around student support and student loans in general, but, really, the one factor that made it difficult was the interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EFor those of us who were charged interest while we were studying, it certainly was difficult. We really were not in a position to go out and work\u2014not without compromising the quality of the study we were paying for. We then came out of university with a much bigger loan than we went in with and, of course, the interest was compounding daily. Then if we went into a job\u2014as I did as a laboratory technician, which does not pay an awful lot of money\u2014often the interest was higher than our 10 percent repayments were. So to be repaying our loans, but to be consistently seeing them get bigger and bigger, was very disheartening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat we want is for these loans to be paid back. We want to make sure that the loans are not a reason that people use for staying overseas, once they have gone on their OEs or overseas for work. At the end of the day, any policy that provides an incentive for young people to pay their loans back is going to be good, not only for young people and for their families but for all taxpayers. As I have said before, student loans have had an enormous impact on some of the things that we take for granted in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EIn terms of superannuation, we may see a generation of young people who have come out of university with large student loans and who have put off buying a house\u2014and of course the increase in value of the housing market has not made that any easier. If these people get to retirement and do not own freehold homes, then it will be very, very difficult for them to survive on the level of superannuation provided. That is something that will be an issue for Governments in the future if it is not addressed now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EI am very pleased that this Labour-led Government has taken the initiative to address the student loan issue. Obviously, it was a very large policy promise of the Labour-led Government during the last election campaign. I have no doubt that it made a huge difference, and I am very proud of it. It is a policy that I have been advocating for a very long time and, of course, as with all our election promises, it is a policy that has been delivered to the students and to the families of New Zealand. It is another promise kept. In that regard I am sure that many, many people out there in New Zealand are extraordinarily grateful for Labour\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EOther comments have been made about some of the reasons why people go overseas and stay there. Of course, wage differentials between countries do make a big difference. But they make a big difference because people often go overseas when they want to pay off their student loans\u2014they want to get rid of them. They are more likely to think: \u201CIf I go and work in the UK, or if I go and work in Australia, where I could potentially get paid more for doing the same job, that will allow me to pay off my student loan.\u201D So simply to say that people do not consider that a student loan is a major issue when people go overseas is slightly disingenuous. If one questions why any young person is going off on his or her OE to a country that has higher wages, I bet that if that person has a student loan the first answer to the question will be to pay off his or her student loan. Of course, when people get there and have differing demands on their money, and when it might be a bit difficult to make the arrangements to pay the loan back, things change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EBut this bill will make that a lot easier. This bill provides a particular amount for people to pay back. It makes the system of paying the loan back easier. The amnesty means that those who go overseas and who already have a number of penalties can now wipe the slate clean with the Inland Revenue Department and start to make arrangements to pay those back. There is also an incentive for letting the department know when a student is going, so that he or she can get the 3-year repayment holiday. Again, I need to reiterate to those people who said that the 3-year repayment holiday should also be given to students in New Zealand, and that it was unfairly advantaging those who left, that the interest that accrues on those loans whilst people are overseas is still in place for overseas students, whilst students who remain in New Zealand or return to New Zealand benefit from Labour\u2019s policy of interest-free student loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E In conclusion, I commend this bill to the House. I am very pleased to see it going through today and to know that we have been able to get it through in a timely fashion so that it can come into force from 1 April 2007. This is an important bill, as are all student loan amendment bills. I look forward to more of them in the future, to make it even easier for those graduates who have student loans to repay them faster, so that the loans are not so much of an onus on students\u2019 lives and on the decisions they make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022 data-id=\u002239dc588e3d194bcd83157e0b8e78e975\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239dc588e3d194bcd83157e0b8e78e975\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY (National\u2014Tamaki):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party is supporting the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2), because we desperately need to send the message that we want our best and our brightest back in New Zealand. However, that does not mean that we have not, and will not, continue to debate this bill vigorously. Let us be very, very clear about what we are dealing with here. This was not\u2014is not\u2014carefully thought out, logically worked through, planned policy. It was policy made on the run, announced 8 or 10 days before an election for the sole purpose of gaining an advantage in what was a very tight, closely fought race. Let us never ever forget that. The people of New Zealand have not had the opportunity to sit back and reflect in order to determine whether this is really what they wanted to do, and the House, in passing this legislation, needs to be respectful of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EDuring the debate we had quite an interesting little exchange about the nature of parliamentary representation and the role of taxation. I want to come back to that for a moment, because I used the example\u2014and it is important that this House is respectful of the people I am about to talk about\u2014of a group of mums and dads whom I met in the Glen Innes part of my electorate the other day who wanted to talk to me about their circumstances. All of them have children in schools. All the mums and dads between them were doing three or four jobs\u2014often meaning they did not spend enough time with their children\u2014just to make ends meet. It is the taxation of those sorts of people, as well as other New Zealanders, that is going to pay for what some call an election bribe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EAt the moment, when one talks to these people and looks into their eyes\u2014and I will come to tax cuts in a moment, Mr Assistant Speaker\u2014one sees tears; soon we will see anger. It is important that when this House legislates to spend taxpayers\u2019 money it respects the taxpayers who are putting up that money. Many of the children in those families will not have the opportunity to benefit from this legislation. They will not miss that opportunity because they are unintelligent, for these children are intelligent, nor because of the fact that their parents live in State homes\u2014although they do live in State homes. Neither will they miss this opportunity because their parents are victims of a low-wage, high taxation economy. They are missing this opportunity\u2014and this is what their parents have difficulty understanding\u2014because too many of them are trapped in schools in which they are not learning. Too often the children in schools that have the protection of teacher unions will not reach a level of achievement that will enable them even to think about university. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EBefore anybody mocks and laughs at what I have just said, I will give a practical example of what I am dealing with at the moment. In 2005, 76 percent of year 11 M\u0101ori students at a secondary school in my electorate of Tamaki failed to achieve level 1 National Certificate of Educational Achievement. Most of the parents of those young men and women pay taxes. It is those children\u2019s misfortune to be in a school where the academic performance is well below what it is reasonable to expect. Those youngsters do not have the opportunity to aspire to a university education. So when this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e89d042acce6493d915c82f922207d6b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225998b1367e54fa59de9b04b67f23030\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I know what the member is going to say. I was about to bring the member to order. He has to address the bill. He cannot go too wide of it. I ask the member to desist and to come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d37a7cd47aa4376993a22e301aec17b\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker. I bow to the superior wisdom of the junior Government whip.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d685c4d1534c548da8abf1df441ef7\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Get used to it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215615e164eca442b959b390a0be30b53\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CGet used to it!\u201D, he says. I say, in coming back to the bill, that we are spending taxpayers\u2019 money. It is very important that those young men and women who will benefit from, for example, the 3-year holiday are duly respectful of the taxpayer, and the money that will contribute to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThis bill comes out of the principal Act, the Student Loan Scheme Act of 1992. In the debate when we canvassed the evolution of the student loan scheme, and that sort of thing, it was necessary to deliver a bit of a history lesson to members on the other side, just to point out to them that the student loan scheme was born in a time of major economic crisis for New Zealand\u2014a crisis that resulted from the behaviour of the 1987-90 Cabinet. We should never ever lose sight of that. When listening to young members in this House talk about how people like themselves will benefit from this legislation\u2014and they will\u2014let us not lose sight of the fact that we are spending taxpayers\u2019 money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EI issue a challenge. When I spoke in the second reading debate, the speaker for the Greens got up and responded to my speech with haughty indignance. I invite the Green Party to take a call and tell this House that when I talk about respect for taxpayers I am not wrong\u2014that I am not wrong about the young New Zealanders who will not have the opportunity to benefit from getting a tertiary education, travelling overseas, and taking a 3-year holiday on their loan. Yet their parents are contributing to make this bill policy. I invite that party to take a call and tell this House and the people of New Zealand that I am wrong. In fact, I issue a wider invitation to any apologists for the present Government, whatever party they may come from, to get on their feet in this House and tell members I am wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThe passage of this bill will ease the administration of the student loan scheme, and that is good; it is most unusual that things coming from a Labour Government are made easier. It was very, very complex legislation for the Education and Science Committee to deal with. The committee was very, very well led by Mr Donnelly, who was ably assisted by officials from the Inland Revenue Department, and I would like to believe that members on this side of the House actually played a significant, if largely unacknowledged, role in helping to unravel what we all know is a little bit of a mess, and at least made it tidy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EThis bill sends a very clear message to graduates with loans. We want them back in New Zealand. We need them back in New Zealand. We understand that they want to travel. We actually want them to travel. We encourage them to broaden their experience, but we also want the young graduates with loans to understand that they have a responsibility: if you borrow the money, then you pay it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe7f562b772249818017ead4a661b5b6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is referring to the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf3d160d9434245b2193f306678ae4b\u0022\u003EALLAN PEACHEY\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Assistant Speaker; it is my inexperience, as you will understand. It is important that borrowers understand that there is an obligation and an expectation on the part of their fellow New Zealanders that they pay the money back. That is why the select committee has agreed to include in the bill the ability for the Inland Revenue Department to match information with the Customs Service so that a better, clearer, and fairer record can be kept. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003EBut, in conclusion, let this House be very, very clear about what it is doing today. It is legislating to fulfil a bribe given by a Government to buy a closely fought election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5b251464a264ba48b90dbb11148d1fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5b251464a264ba48b90dbb11148d1fb\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In rising to speak to the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2), I just want to reflect upon a couple of the comments made by previous speakers. The first is a comment that was made by Dr Paul Hutchison in response to some comments that I had made in the Committee stage and, in fact, in the second reading stage. I had made the statement that many of our students went off overseas unaware of their obligations to the Inland Revenue Department to pay back part of their student loans. Dr Paul Hutchison suggested that it was not so much ignorance as, in fact, selective denial, which I guess goes to show that Dr Paul Hutchison and the National Opposition has somewhat of a less generous view of young New Zealanders than I do and than New Zealand First does. I believe that many of our young people who are getting themselves into the situation that this bill is aimed at go overseas not fully cognisant of their obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI refer to Mr Peachey\u2019s comments about the fact that the young people do have an obligation to pay back those loans, and with regard to those people who try to get around that obligation I think of them as being nothing less than thieves. They have taken money from the taxpayers of New Zealand to get themselves an education, and if they deliberately flout their obligations, they are no better than people who are just stealing from the taxpayers of New Zealand. Mr Peachey made, I thought, a quite heartfelt picture of the scenario of low-income workers in multiple jobs, and it is absolutely true that their taxes are helping to pay for the education of these young people and that their taxes are supporting the interest-free system that is in place for students. However, the question the member did not answer was how much those families would have in their pockets per week with the tax cuts that National was offering at the last election. I suggest that it would be zilch. Therefore, I believe he was going along a very unseemly track in suggesting that those people would have gained enormously out of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe details of this particular legislation have been traversed quite a number of times, both at the second reading and last evening through the Committee stage. They have been articulated by the Hon Peter Dunne, who put this legislation together. It is probably a waste of the House\u2019s time to go through and detail all the bits and pieces. So I think we need to look at the purpose of the legislation\u2014what this legislation is trying to do, and whether it will achieve it. I say, once again, that New Zealand First has long believed in a policy that the best immigrant is a New Zealander returning home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EOpposition members have gone on and on about the this legislation being only about the interest-free loans; in fact, this is not about interest-free loans at all. This legislation comes from circumstances that would still be in place even if there were no interest-free loans. I will just refer to one or two of the things that Mr Peachey talked about. He talked about a history lesson. The loan scheme was put in place in 1992, but back in 1996, when New Zealand First came into coalition with National and I became Associate Minister of Education with Wyatt Creech, there were some real problems with the exercise of the student loan scheme. One of the problems was, of course, that 16 and 17-year-olds could go off and do courses at polytech. They could then take out a $10,000 lump sum and take off to England. Their parents\u2014and no one else, in fact\u2014could not prevent them from doing it, and because of the contracts legislation they had no obligation to pay those loans back. It was something that New Zealand First and National worked on at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EOne of the silliest things of the lot that was occurring at that time, which we had to try to apply a fix to, was this sort of situation. Someone might write to the Inland Revenue Department and ask how much he or she owed. The Inland Revenue Department would write back and say that $1,052.36 was owed. So the person gets the letter in the mail, writes up a cheque, and sends it off to the department. Well, it takes 5 days to get there. Within 1 month that person gets a reply from the Inland Revenue Department that says that he or she owes 53c on the loan. That was the interest that had accrued in the interim period from the time the person had written to the department, it had written back, and the person had sent the cheque. That was how silly the system was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ETherefore, progressively, administrations have picked up and fixed up bits and pieces of the legislation. The difficulties that people who go off overseas are facing, particularly in terms of the penalties, occur whether or not there is an interest-free loan situation. The interest-free loan policy has exacerbated the situation, and it has done so in this particular way. It applies only to people who are in New Zealand or who are offshore doing charitable work. It applies only to those people. Many people have gone off overseas believing that they are carrying interest-free loans. It does not apply to them; those people go off overseas and there is an obligation under the current law for them to continue to make repayments. If they do not make those repayments, then their penalties accrue. So after 3 years when they decide to come back to New Zealand and start paying off their student loan, the student loan will have grown massively, and people look at that as being a huge disincentive for them to come back. As I say, the situation is not created directly by the interest-free loan policy, but the interest-free loan policy has exacerbated it. So any suggestion that there is a direct flow-on is not correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EHowever, the objective of this legislation is to encourage and provide incentives, and to remove disincentives, for our people who go off overseas to come back to New Zealand and to engage constructively in New Zealand society and in the New Zealand economy, enriched by their experiences overseas. So that is what the 3-year holiday is about. People need to understand that that is all it is: a 3-year repayment holiday. They go off overseas, but they still have to pay the interest that is accruing, which will be building up on their loan. So when they look at their loan sheet at the end of 3 years, it will be bigger than when they left. However, no penalties will be accruing to them during that time. After 3 years they will have to start making continuous repayments back to the Inland Revenue Department; otherwise, penalties will come. We think 3 years is a very sensible amount of time. It is about the time that somebody can go across and have that overseas experience, and possibly do some postgraduate studies, but then return. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI just want mention that in the last 10 months I have had the good fortune of having my first two grandchildren born to me. One is very fair, even though she is a registered member of Ng\u0101i Tahu, and the other one happens to be Niuean - Cook Island - Samoan, who has a skin colouration that is very similar to that of Nanaia Mahuta. I refer to them as ebony and ivory. They are just gorgeous. I consider myself so lucky to have these two grandchildren living in Auckland, and to be able to regularly see them and see them growing up. I feel so sorry for those people whose kids and grandkids are growing up across the other side of the world. From that particular point of view, I have to say that there is some really good fortune in the objectives of this particular legislation, and New Zealand First, of course, is very supportive of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EMention has been made of the Education and Science Committee and the work it did. I have to acknowledge the work of Opposition members on that committee, as well as Government members. It was really the select committee process rather than the select committee itself that led to some of those constructive changes\u2014and, we believe, positive changes\u2014to the legislation. That demonstrates how important select committee work is. That is where we get participatory democracy actually taking place within our Parliament. The rest of our Parliament is, really, representative democracy, but at the select committee, and through the select committee process, we can refine our legislation, and listen to the people and hear what they are saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EOnce again, I take the opportunity to congratulate the Hon Peter Dunne, because I believe he has produced very good legislation. I congratulate the Inland Revenue Department officials. They were really, really good to work with. I have mentioned the situation where they went back to a group of presenters who had got it wrong, and they went out of their way to make sure that they understood the bill completely. That was going beyond the call of duty, but it was representative of the way they approached the whole legislation. From this, I hope\u2014and I believe, and New Zealand First believes\u2014that the objectives will be met and there will be more incentives for our young people to return back home and participate constructively in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7616cc6c2304e49a89129f72c04e90e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7616cc6c2304e49a89129f72c04e90e\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa i te Whare. First of all, I would like to say I am quite amazed at how the public talk has changed. A few years ago, when people were jumping up and down about how all our kids were disappearing overseas, people first of all tried to make out that that was not happening and that it was not the reality. Then, as the statistics started coming out, the brutal reality kicked in that, yep, our kids were doing a runner. Now, all of a sudden, the Government is talking as if it recognised that our kids needed to get away for a few years, and that it will try to encourage them to come back home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ELet us not con ourselves here, folks\u2014our kids are running away overseas because they have had a gutsful of being driven into the ground by this massive student debt. They get out of college, and in their first adult years they are trying to get a degree so they can do something with it, but we are making them build up a debt as big as a house mortgage. They are getting on the plane and running away; they are not playing society\u2019s game about going overseas to get a bit of this and a little bit of that, then coming back and bringing back all this worldly experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo we should stop conning ourselves. Our kids are doing a runner on the massive student debt that has been imposed upon them by this Government and by the previous Government. We should at least be honest with ourselves about what is going on around here. We should stop conning ourselves and stop lying to our kids. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EJust about a year ago, Professor Rodolpho Stavenhagen was here, and he presented his report on human rights and indigenous issues in Aotearoa to the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations. Paragraph 62 of that report pretty much sums up the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2) from the M\u0101ori Party perspective: \u201CThe Maori Students in Tertiary Education of Aotearoa complained to the Special Rapporteur that a limitation to their progress to higher programmes in tertiary education is the high burden of student debt and decreasing public funding to support Maori students.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThat is what the United Nations was told, and that is what the world now knows about the situation facing M\u0101ori students. Mind you, that is what M\u0101ori have known ever since this crippling student loan facility was first created\u2014student debt will overburden those who already carry the burden of high expectation from their wh\u0101nau, limit their future options, and lead to years of continued debt repayment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen I spoke during the second reading of this bill, I mentioned comments I had received from an old P\u0101keh\u0101 guy. This is a lovely statement. He asked: \u201CIf education is the transfer of knowledge from one generation to the next, then who are we to charge our children for something that we\u201D\u2014those of us in this House, anyway\u2014\u201Cgot for free?\u201D. When I went to varsity it cost $120. I did not get anything, but that was all it cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EThis bill aims to amend the student loan scheme in order to encourage students with loans to come home. But the $9 billion\u2014and ever rising\u2014student debt will not change a heck of a lot, when many of our students will not come back, because they are now getting way more than they could ever get here. When students commit to improving their knowledge, and the Government commits to supporting their endeavours, everybody benefits. But when our students\u2019 commitment is matched by a Government driving them into debt, we should not be surprised when we lose them. The way to get our kids to come home is to slash the debt. We would then maximise our return from the productivity of those who would come back tomorrow in a flash if the Government had the courage to slash the debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori, of course, are finally figuring higher in student debt because of their higher participation over the last few years in tertiary study. M\u0101ori are finally beginning to turn back decades of educational disconnection. I believe the recent increase in M\u0101ori tertiary study is very much the result of w\u0101nanga enrolments, and I take this opportunity to record the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s heartfelt thanks to the w\u0101nanga pioneers: people like emeritus Professor Whatarangi Winiata, Dr Rongo W\u0113tere, and Professor Hirini Moku Mead, and to those who have taken on the mantle on their behalf. Yesterday\u2019s statistics are a clear reminder of the very, very impressive results that the three w\u0101nanga, in particular, have achieved in improving M\u0101ori tertiary qualifications, noting a massive jump of 10,000 M\u0101ori who have achieved bachelor degrees or higher over the past 5 years. That is not to undermine the excellent work our whanaunga are doing in universities, polytechnics, colleges of education, and other tertiary institutions, as well, but it is more of a recognition of the genuine relevance of w\u0101nanga to M\u0101ori learning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo M\u0101ori are there in bigger numbers than ever before, but I ask whether it will make a difference. Will there be jobs for our kids when they graduate, or will their first choice still be Auckland International Airport? Ministry of Education data tells us that for M\u0101ori, their getting a degree does not actually lead to them getting a job, but it does lead to a big student debt. That brings us back to the whole matter of the debts that M\u0101ori accrue under the student loan scheme\u2014currently $1.5 billion and climbing\u2014which the Government dismisses as just a consequence of higher participation by M\u0101ori in tertiary education. But its implications for the financial well-being and future prosperity of those M\u0101ori students and their wh\u0101nau simply cannot be ignored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen high schools fail M\u0101ori\u2014and 50 percent of M\u0101ori go into tertiary study with no formal school qualifications\u2014it is not hard to see why so few choose tertiary study as an option. And when they do choose tertiary study, before they can enrol in it they get into debt right away in just getting the high school equivalent qualifications that their high schools failed them at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWhen M\u0101ori do not like to apply for student loans because they are worried about debt levels, it is not hard to see why M\u0101ori struggle to get through tertiary study. When M\u0101ori do get loans and end up with bigger debts than non-M\u0101ori, it is not hard to see why getting into debt is such a big issue for them. When the average Kiwi earns $24,500, but M\u0101ori get only $21,000, it is not hard to see why the debt repayment issue is such a big deal for them, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo when all those factors combine, it is not hard to see why it takes M\u0101ori a whole lot longer than non-M\u0101ori to repay their student debt. When that is the experience on which they base their future, then the cost of an airfare to Aussie becomes a positive choice for far too many of our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EFinally, although we will support this bill to try to get our kids to come back home, I have to speak against the snooping culture that has surfaced in this bill, too. This bill introduces data matching between the Inland Revenue Department and the Customs Service to determine which repayment rules the students leaving the country will be subject to. But it also leaves out there the distinct possibility that that information might be put to a whole lot of other less positive uses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EI will leave it there, but I wanted to raise the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s concern about the Government\u2019s continued invasive use of computer-generated data in order to keep tabs on our own citizens. Using information to develop our strengths as a nation is good, but using it to snoop on our kids who are trying to get ahead in life is, quite simply, unacceptable. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e75953364dc045c39194a5d8917b7eac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e75953364dc045c39194a5d8917b7eac\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in the third reading of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2), and note that most of it comes into effect on 1 April 2008. I thank the previous speakers for their support for this bill, and I thank members for the unanimous support for this bill throughout the Parliament. I feel somewhat concerned about some of the content of the speech of Mr Allan Peachey. I think perhaps he feels somewhat frustrated and maybe wants to get his previous job back, because he tended to speak more about schools and his previous job than he did about this bill, which is about the student loan scheme. I suspect Mr Peachey is not the only person in the National Party who feels frustrated at the moment. He talked about taxes and about schools, but not about the tertiary student loan scheme. This bill is about a 3-year repayment holiday for students who go overseas, and it is about non-penalty clauses; it is not about relief from interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI notice that the previous speaker, Hone Harawira, also talked about people running away overseas, yet the commentary on the bill talks about the tradition of young New Zealanders going overseas once they have finished their tertiary education. It used to be called OE. People would say: \u201CHave you done your OE yet?\u201D. So this is not something that has come about since the establishment of the student loan scheme; it has gone on from before the student loan scheme. It is not new but is a tradition, and for people to want to go overseas and get that experience has very little to do with the student loan scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EThe people who come back with overseas experience contribute greatly to New Zealand. In some cases, they have to go overseas. I think of people like eye surgeons and so on. In order to become registered as an eye surgeon in New Zealand, someone has to have had some experience and qualifications from overseas. For some people it is a requirement of their job. It is not something that is new. What is new and is in this policy is that young people are to be enabled to have that overseas experience without being penalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EMr Peachey talked about an election bribe. I do not think that Mr Peachey understands what policy, is because his party does not have any. I say to him that policy is what one goes to voters with before an election, and it says what one is going to do. It is extremely cynical on the part of someone like Mr Peachey to think of policy as a bribe, but no doubt if he is here in the House for long enough, and if the National Party is creative at some particular stage, it may come up with something called policy, and he may then understand what it is. If he is around long enough, he may understand that policy is important and that if one is going to stand for election, one has to have policy to put before electors. Mr Peachey talked a great deal about tax cuts, but I notice that National\u2019s deputy leader, Bill English, has said that a National Government could not afford tax cuts. So that is another flip-flop by National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about this bill, it is important to note that Mr Peachey said that people would not be going to university. For someone of his age, he needs his memory to be jogged a little. Maybe I am a bit older than he is, but when I was younger\u2014if one can talk about the old days\u2014only 2 percent of people went to university. I remind Mr Peachey that a large number of people now go to university or into tertiary education. In 2005, around 76,000 young people went to universities in New Zealand\u2014that is, New Zealand - born New Zealanders\u2014nearly 50,000 went to polytechs and institutes of tertiary education, 2,000 went into teachers\u2019 colleges, and 6,500 went into w\u0101nanga, without including other forms of tertiary education. That is an amazing improvement, and I am proud to be part of a Labour Government that puts a great deal of emphasis on education and the fact that large numbers of people are now accessing tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EWhat has enabled so many people to access tertiary education is the student loan scheme. Children from working-class families who, many, many years ago, gave away the whole idea of going to university, especially if they lived in country areas, are now able to go to university because of the student loan scheme that we are amending. That is a tremendous improvement. I think the member opposite is so involved with his own little foibles and his own little hobby horse about schools that he may be better employed if he goes back to a school and makes some of the improvements he thinks should be done within his own school, and if he also encourages people to access the scheme that is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAs we have said with regard to this bill, the loan scheme enables people to have a holiday from repayments. It also has some aspects that allow those who hold loans to be exempted while they are studying at an undergraduate level overseas as well as at a graduate level, so that is a change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EAnother point that I think is very, very important has not been mentioned. Some young people do not want to go overseas to take on employment but they want to work for a charity. Many young people do that. They want to work in another country\u2014to volunteer their services through Volunteer Service Abroad or whatever other organisation they choose. There is a clause in the bill that allows young people to have interest-free loans while working overseas for a charitable organisation. The bill puts in the conditions that need to be met by those who do that. I remind people that if they are going overseas and working for a charity as a young person, proof has to be provided that the work done as a volunteer for, or for token payment from, a charitable organisation was for one or more of the following purposes: to relieve poverty, hunger, sickness, or the ravages of war or natural disaster\u2014so that would include people wanting to work in tsunami relief\u2014or to improve the economy or raise the educational standards of a country that is recognised by the United Nations as a developing country. People who wish to do that need to provide the commissioner with the information prescribed in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI think that provision is very, very important. We have talked a lot about young people going overseas to make money, yet we have forgotten that many young people are much more altruistic than we give them credit for. Many of them do want to go overseas while they are young to work for a charitable organisation. That opportunity is a very, very important part of the bill, and I know that many young people will be relieved to be able to take it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI hear a lot of people talk too about young people going overseas and say what a great advantage that is, etc. As we know, most young people go overseas for a period of 3 years. They go for experience, and that is not new. It happened before the student loan scheme was established, and it has happened since then. It is not a new thing. Those people do come back to New Zealand. They want to live here, they want to settle here, they want to have their children here, and they bring back with them valuable information and experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003EI thank the chair of the Education and Science Committee, Brian Donnelly, for his good work in chairing the committee. I thank the submitters, particularly the young students who came to submit. I think it is very important that young people make submissions to select committees, so I thank the student organisations, the teacher organisations, and all those who made submissions. I thank the select committee staff for the good work they did, and I thank my colleagues on the select committee. We all worked together and there was unanimous support for the bill. Some of the people who made submissions made them on a number of things that were not to do with the bill, but they used the opportunity provided by the bill to raise them. Generally, those who made submissions focused on the content of the loan scheme. I think all the submitters were in favour of the bill. The select committee is in favour of the bill, and we look forward to its final reading and adoption into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00222fd95edfecba4cb9ac94998910ea5a56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fd95edfecba4cb9ac94998910ea5a56\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E That was the former member for Hamilton East, Dianne Yates. She made a far greater contribution in the Education and Science Committee than she did in her third reading speech on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI speak from the point of view that National supports this bill in its third reading. The bill\u2019s gestation has been very short. It would be naive of us to ignore the fact that it is absolutely necessary and that the Inland Revenue Department basically had no way of managing a policy that was thought of for the purposes of its vote-catching capacity. In actual fact, when we looked at the details of it in the select committee, we saw in the highlights section of the annual report on the student loan scheme that the number of borrowers living overseas was 27,000. With further research we found that the figure is 40,000\u2013odd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe got down to the task very quickly under the fine and admirable chairmanship of the Hon Brian Donnelly. Dealing with this bill was a very interesting experience. It has given me an insight into the process around select committees, because it is one of the first bills I have worked on that has come right through and that we could wrestle with before it becomes law. On that basis, I acknowledge the appropriateness of the submitters and the fact that we sat during recess one time to make sure it all worked. The way the Inland Revenue Department officials were able to bring clarification to the complex subjects being dealt with was also refreshing. The process was interesting from my point of view because it was not clouded with that warm, fuzzy thinking that comes from the left when the Labour Party is totally bereft of any real, straightforward thinking. From that point of view, it is appropriate that we should bring into line the runaway abuse of a system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EHowever, I am incredibly sympathetic towards the overloaded and overburdened Inland Revenue Department, with the workload it has to carry. We are asking an enormous amount of the department. We might be showing a degree of blind faith to believe that with a couple of amendments here and there under the name of the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2), we will block all the abuse of the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EI go back to what the very valuable member for Tamaki, Allan Peachey, alluded to, which was the 2 million - odd taxpayers in New Zealand who fund the student loan scheme. We do not want to take them for granted; we want to see a lot of responsibility being taken by those people who have taken up student funding and gone on to get tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EA lot of people have paid back their loans. We see in the highlights section of the annual report on the student loan scheme that 665,900 people have taken loans, and 193,393 have paid them back. However, at this point in time\u2014or at the time of the report on the 2006 student loan scheme\u2014470,507 people still had a student loan. Some interesting fiscal figures around the student loan scheme going forward are that by 2015 borrowings will be in the region of $12.7 billion and it will not be until 2034 that repayments exceed borrowings. Over the next 15 years there will be some fiscal implications, and we just have to note those. The total amount of borrowing is forecast to increase by 4.7 percent a year, which is $66 million. On average, the balance will increase by 5 percent. That is the really large figure, because that 5 percent is actually going to be $526 million each year. It is a serious matter we are talking about here. Again, it just emphasises the implications of the $1.5 billion election bribe that was handed out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EFrom the time the interest-free loan scheme was signalled until today, the number of people who have gone overseas and whom the Inland Revenue Department did not know about has cost the taxpayer another $143 million. Again, it just emphasises the huge fiscal implications upon the economy. I want to emphasise that we are not begrudging that; we just want to see an enormous growth in the level of responsibility of those people who have taken other options like going on to tertiary education, learning a trade or skill, or working with an industry training organisation or training provider, where they can earn while they learn and get very, very valuable skills. As previous speakers have said, we have high expectations for our young people. We want them to aim for the stars and to excel. We do expect them to make educational choices around the tertiary scene that will add value and make our economy resilient into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EAnother statement I want to make is that there is a significant level of private benefit around the tertiary education side of things. I do not think we are focusing enough on that. The fundamental thinking around the student loan scheme is that it is for the private good of the individual. The State still pays an enormous amount of the tertiary education bill. There needs to be an incentive around the choices we make so that that value is realised. When we stop to think about it, we realise that with any investment there is a short-term sacrifice and that to get the long-term benefit we have to be able to cope with that short-term sacrifice. To quote what Benjamin Franklin said\u2014and I fully endorse the statement\u2014\u201CIf a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away.\u201D That applies to women as well, I say to Dianne Yates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EAny investment in knowledge always pays the best returns. Certainly, tertiary education is hugely important. The student loan scheme has been the foundation for it, and on that basis I recognise that this bill is the best attempt of a number that will come before us to try to ensure that those people who take on the obligation of a student loan either stay in New Zealand and deliver the value back to the taxpayer that we know they will or, if they go overseas, stick to their repayment obligations. It was interesting to get the figures from the Inland Revenue Department that show that this scheme in itself will actually start to improve the level of payment\u2014$9 million in the first year and something like $24 million in the second year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EJust on a finishing note, I draw everybody\u2019s attention to the noble submission made by intern doctors. It talked about their need to stay in New Zealand for another 3 years. When we look globally at the moment at the issue of getting employment as a doctor, we see that in the UK, for example, the number of doctors is being reduced by some 20,000-odd, and we are very mindful that it looks as though the worm may turn. We will get back a lot of our wonderful people, and that would be absolutely outstanding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt gives me great pleasure to stand here and speak on behalf of the National Party. I am proud of the fact that we have largely tidied up an area that was a shambles after the interest-free student loan policy was brought in. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u0022e819c7704b1b414cbc57b9fd0d7789e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e819c7704b1b414cbc57b9fd0d7789e0\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Alaikum salaam. What brought me to politics was the excesses of the National Party in the 1990s. What hit me was the class system that was brought to New Zealand politics, particularly in the area of education. Some people could afford to go to the universities, but those who could not afford to had to get loans and they had to pay interest on that while they were studying or after their graduation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003ESo I am delighted that Labour has, since 1999, started to reverse some of those policies, particularly in this area of education where we pretty much started a campaign to rectify the excesses that were brought to us in the 1990s. First, of course, we got interest-free loans while students were studying. This is the second stage of that campaign to have interest taken off altogether when students have graduated and while they are working in New Zealand. I am delighted to rise and support this bill, because it is designed to bring a fair and just society, particularly in the area of education, so that our young people can afford to go to universities, polytechnics, and other tertiary education institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EI would like to make some comments on the speech made by my colleague over there, Hone Harawira, about M\u0101ori education and how students of M\u0101ori extraction are having difficulty in studying. Unfortunately I have to say that I think that speech was very cynical. I know the M\u0101ori Party supports this bill, but that speech was very cynical, in a way. I will tell the member why I say that. It is because education is fundamental to human development. Education is what makes us understand what is around us. It makes us understand the nature of things and makes us better at decision making. I will tell members about education and Asian people. Why do so many Asian people come to New Zealand? One of the major attractions is to get their children educated in New Zealand, because we have one of the world\u2019s best education systems here. They come here to get their children educated so that they can do well in life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EI am surprised that the member of the M\u0101ori Party, Hone Harawira, has been very cynical about the loan scheme. Today, of those students graduating from our high schools, 50 percent more Asian students than P\u0101keh\u0101 students obtain university entrance. That is because Asian students and their parents value education. I think the message there is that the parents have to make sure their children go to high school and to universities or other tertiary education. It is important for the State to make sure that these students have the opportunity to go to higher education. It is important that every family has the opportunity to send their sons and daughters to tertiary education. Among the ethnic communities nowadays, we see a whole lot of young people who have more opportunity to go to university now, with this scheme where students can have access to loans and do not have to pay interest. The ethnic community, including the Asian community and particularly the new arrivals, is usually at the bottom of the heap in economic terms. So this scheme allows them to make sure their children go to universities and get higher education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E Now, with the interest-free student loan scheme, we have more students in tertiary education than ever before. That allows for these students not only to study here but also to go overseas. Previously postgraduate students alone were registered, but under this bill undergraduate students are also able to go overseas and enhance their study. I think of some areas in this country like science, technology, and engineering\u2014and sometimes other areas like health, for example, which was highlighted earlier in terms of eye surgeons and other surgeons\u2014where some of our universities do not have all the facilities available. I am delighted that this scheme allows students to go overseas for up to 3 years and enhance their education, particularly in the postgraduate area and in the areas of technology, engineering, and medicine. For example, my own young son is becoming a vascular surgeon and he is planning to go overseas, because some of his education is probably not fully available here. I am sure he will be coming back to help us here in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s policy is to make sure that we have quality and relevance in our education, because previously in the 1990s it was all about \u201Cbums on seats\u201D. Now we are working towards improving our tertiary education so we can have a funding allocation for our institutions that allows better quality and relevance for students in education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EThis bill, I must say, is very important, particularly in relation to the amnesty of 1 year on student loans. This will also allow non-resident borrowers in arrears the chance of a fresh start. That is very important, because some of the students who have gone overseas cannot afford to repay their loans while they are working. As has already been highlighted, some graduates go overseas to do not only postgraduate work but also some kind of community work\u2014for example, in the United Nations\u2014or in similar organisations or non-profit institutions in developing countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EIt is important to realise that this bill allows for data to be matched between the Inland Revenue Department and the Customs Service so they can make sure they have information available about the graduates who go overseas, so that on their return they can be assessed for repaying their loan. It is very important that these steps carry on for our young students, so that we can give opportunity to our future generations to get educated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EI particularly come back to the point I raised earlier in relation to M\u0101ori education. In the Education and Science Committee right now, we are doing an inquiry into making every child successful. I know that the member from the M\u0101ori Party is making a very good contribution in terms of understanding why some children are failing. We all know that at the moment, at the bottom of the heap, a quarter of the students who are failing are more likely to be either M\u0101ori or Pacific Island students, and it is important for the parents to make sure our children are getting education. Schemes like the interest-free student loan scheme are enhancing the opportunities for study. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003EFinally, I say the select committee has done a marvellous job under the chairmanship of Brian Donnelly, who is a very good chairman. The Opposition members in the committee have been working very well and have been contributing hugely. I am delighted that we are working very cooperatively and well. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dca8b111f8de45c4978b8a1a70b8c9c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dca8b111f8de45c4978b8a1a70b8c9c3\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I begin by commending what I thought were some very helpful comments made by my colleague Dr Ashraf Choudhary, who, having worked for some time in the academic sector, certainly knows what he is talking about from the teaching side of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EIn this third reading debate on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2) what I would like to do, as well as initially commending the legislation, is to take a bit of a snapshot of this issue. Firstly, I will go back and speak for a moment from my personal history as the first person in my family to achieve tertiary education\u2014in spite of my heavy Kiwi accent\u2014in the United Kingdom. That takes me back to 1978\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280afa08056c140a6904650ec8f52816e\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Warwickshire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfbc95d749ee4ac69a6b86a7462f3793\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014to the Warwickshire County Council, with a proud local education authority, which, in those wonderful days, paralleled absolutely the tertiary system in New Zealand. The local education authority gave me not only full tuition fees, not only full accommodation costs, not only enough money to feed myself, but also everything else besides. I had to work only in order to earn a bit of pocket money to do those extra things. That was an extraordinary period, when I was absolutely supported to complete my tertiary education from point A to point Z. That was an extraordinary situation to be in, and I know that many people in this House, including, I am sure, a majority of our National Party opponents who oppose this legislation, enjoyed a similar privilege. Those were the golden years in terms of tertiary education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003ESecondly, I would like to flash forward to 1996, when I was elected as an electorate member of Parliament for Christchurch Central, which is an area with a high number of students. What I found in that first flood of casework coming to my office was a story repeated again and again. That was a story of students\u2014and, in some cases, graduates, because by then the real student loan scheme had come in and some people had gone through the scheme\u2014who had generated a very large debt. As a result, they were in a situation whereby they had a massive debt\u2014very often equivalent to the size of a mortgage\u2014hanging around their neck. They were in that desperate state, and, naturally, they came to their local member of Parliament to tell the story. At that sad stage, Labour was in Opposition. We were not in the position to be able to do an awful lot to help their situation. But what we could do was to learn from their stories and develop policy in response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThe harsh edge of that savage loan policy was the debt\u2014which Hone Harawira spoke very powerfully of\u2014which is now at a very high level. Those were the years when that debt started low, at a national level, and started to shoot up and up. It was an utterly unreal situation. I can remember, for example, a medical student who had a $120,000 loan debt. She was a young woman who had developed a number of emotional illnesses while she was studying, so she had a real lack of confidence that she could ever actually practice as a doctor. So she was faced not only with a massive debt, without any scholarships to balance it against, but also the real possibility that she could never do the job that would earn her the real money to pay back that debt. She worked out that she was spending about a quarter of her real income just to service the debt, before actually starting to eat into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThat was in 1996. Now I will flash forward to 1999. I still remember being the first member of Parliament to turn up at the University of Canterbury during the election campaign. Obviously, events in Christchurch often lead the nation. The students at the University of Canterbury occupied the Registry because their anger at the student loan debt was so great. I was the first, lucky member of Parliament, as an Opposition MP, to arrive into that situation and to address the angry crowd. I was then taken into the boardroom, where there was a midnight meeting for the students to try to present to me what the problems were all about. At the heart of the dispute then was the issue of student loans\u2014obviously, other issues were there besides.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThat occupation of the University of Canterbury really set the tenor for that election, because Max Bradford, who was then the Minister for Tertiary Education for the National Government, had all sorts of extraordinary objects thrown at him as he visited one campus after another. He was chased off campuses. He really had to repeat endlessly the famous action of Lockwood Smith in climbing through, what was it, a storeroom window or a toilet window\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8dd09059a174cbd886bbef0211256aa\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: The Joe Cocker of the National caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4d2685f879a474ba4d93a0be1cf4df1\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014exactly, the Joe Cocker of the National caucus\u2014in order to escape angry students. Max Bradford, in campus after campus, was performing extraordinary escape acts to try to get away from the venom of an extraordinarily angry bunch of New Zealand citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThat was in 1999. By then, Labour had developed the policies to address this area. I see this legislation now as, in a sense, ending that legislative journey. What we did after getting into power in 1999\u2014and, again, after intense debate after getting into power again in 2005\u2014was to look at the situation, see that debt continuing to rise, and, most important of all, see the personal situations of extraordinary suffering that were causing our students not to look forward to the next stage of their lives but to fear what was going to happen. Of course, in 1999 interest was accruing even as they were studying. The first thing we did on getting into power, with a whole lot of other calls on our first Budget, was to freeze the interest on loans while students were studying. After 2005 we froze all interest on loans, so that any repayment was actually repayment off the interest. But there are some exceptions to that situation, and that is really what the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2) is heavily focused on. That is what this third reading debate is all about today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThis bill continues Labour\u2019s effort to make that loan scheme fairer. The particular matter it focuses on is the fact that many graduates, for a whole heap of reasons, want an opportunity to go overseas. As has been mentioned earlier by Colin King, some graduates want the chance to become missionaries or to follow their interest in overseas development work or overseas volunteer work for a while. The last thing they want while being overseas, which would normally mean that interest would continue to be added on to their loan, is to lose out financially through giving of their time freely to the wider world. Instead, we want this legislation to be effective so as to allow those graduates to enjoy their overseas experience, but we also do not want any disincentive for them to come home to use their skills in New Zealand. So, first of all, we need the information. Therefore, this legislation introduces data matching between the Inland Revenue Department and the Customs Service to help ensure that the department knows about those with loans who are heading overseas. That information base was not readily available or accessible before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003ESecondly, the legislation extends the amnesty on student loan penalties by just 1 year. That allows non-resident borrowers who are in arrears the chance of a fresh start. It is absolutely essential that incentives are built into this kind of system. It is all very well to tell graduates who come home to New Zealand after a number of years that they have a $150,000 debt hanging around their neck. That will not be much of an encouragement to come back here, even with the skills they have. So this bill extends the amnesty by 1 year. This enables New Zealand graduates with a debt who are overseas and who are paying a bit off, or maybe not paying enough off, an opportunity to play a bit of catch-up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes the scheme fairer, by introducing a 3-year repayment holiday for those borrowers living overseas. That is fundamental. It recognises that many of those borrowers who go overseas for their OE are not going to a secure, salaried position with a certain income. It means we have recognition now in law that borrowers may not be in a position while on their OE, because they have an uncertain income, to make repayments while travelling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThe last two points I make about this legislation are that it allows the Inland Revenue Department to give interest-free loans to undergraduate students who are studying overseas, and that it also introduces a penalty rate when borrowers fall behind in repayments. It is with great pride in this legislation that I commend its third reading to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee2c5d895a5244d983df9fedecdf595a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee2c5d895a5244d983df9fedecdf595a\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is with real pleasure that I rise to speak to the bill, because the whole student loan scheme is an issue that I feel very passionate about. Like most parents around this House who are roughly my age, we have children who have been students. And we have been students ourselves, so many of us know personally what the former loan scheme used to be like for students in the very early 1990s, before Labour came into Government and was able to institute a much fairer loan policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EI could regale the House with the many, many stories that my children\u2019s friends used to tell me about the impact the former loan scheme, introduced by the former National Government, meant for them personally. One of the huge differences I noticed when Labour came into Government was how the constituency work and the topics, which were some of the major issues that came through our offices, changed. One of the issues that did change dramatically was the amount of work that my office was doing around issues connected with student loans. Once Labour\u2019s policy came into force, the amount of work we were doing on student loan issues dropped away markedly. In fact, I cannot remember the last time I did a case concerning student loans. That is great for students, and it is good for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThis bill, really, is a continuation of Labour\u2019s policies to make the student loan scheme fairer. Basically that is all that the people who came to see me, and my children\u2019s friends who were talking to me, were asking for. They were not asking for a free ride. They knew that tertiary education was expensive, and they were just asking for a fair deal. That is one of the reasons why I have always felt so strongly about our student loan policy, and it could not have come in quickly enough as far as I was concerned, because New Zealanders, and young New Zealanders, were really just asking for a fair go. This further extension covered in the bill\u2014this continuation of making the student loan scheme fairer\u2014is all that people were asking for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EPart of the improvement in tertiary education that I am proud that our Labour Government has been able to deliver is the funding of institutions on the basis of quality and relevance. I well remember, when we were in Opposition, how the old market-driven model that National applied was basically about \u201Cbums on seats\u201D, as we say. Our tertiary education institutions were forced, by the previous National Government\u2019s onerous and draconian tertiary education policy, to concentrate on numbers rather than on quality and relevance. I am delighted that the improvement in our tertiary education policy has enabled tertiary institutions to refocus on quality and relevance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EIt is not easy for those who deliver tertiary education services. We always know that demand exceeds supply. One of the things we can say about education in general in New Zealand is that all of those who are involved in delivering education in New Zealand want to do only their very best. They want to deliver only the best for their students, from early childhood education right through to tertiary education degrees and the doctorate level. If one wants to get rich, one should not work in the education sector. People who work in this sector do so because they are passionate, they are driven, and they are committed. They want to improve New Zealand, and they want to leave this country a better place. The way they are able to do that is by being in front of a lecture theatre or classroom, or leading young people and imparting to and sharing with them the knowledge they have gained over the years, regardless of what stage of the education process those students may be at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EI am grateful for the altruism shown by the people who work in the education sector, because it is a huge commitment; it is not an easy task. I want again, and I have done this many times, to take this opportunity to extend my personal thanks to those who are involved in educating our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cac4281e55f4abb9ed4c7c4c761ec2b\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: You are starting to repeat yourself!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddd09c765eb74c9d83cb4ef236bc995c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: It is worth repeating. It is worth saying thank you to those people who are sharing their knowledge with young New Zealanders. That member, who is generally regarded as being fair, has just had, I am sure, a momentary slip in his normally pretty good attitude. I am happy to say thank you as many times as it is required. One of the things about our culture in New Zealand is that sometimes we are great at criticising, but we are not as flash at saying thank you. They are two very simple words and I am happy to say thank you as many times as possible. So just in case that member missed it, I say thank you to all the people who are sharing their knowledge with young people in New Zealand and improving the lot of our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E It is a pity that member interjected, because I did not intend to dwell on the National Party as there is really not much to say about it. But I accept that one is forced to respond to a careless and out of character interjection. What cannot go without being asked is the question: \u201CWhat\u2019s National\u2019s policy?\u201D. Can those members opposite give us a policy? Do they have a policy? There is silence\u2014not a dicky-bird! The only message I can hear from National on its tertiary education policy is\u2014listen\u2014ratatat-tat! That is Mr Key\u2019s flip-flops. That is Mr Key flip-flopping all over the show on yet another lack of policy, and that is National\u2019s position on tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EMr Key has several views. I ask members to bear with me for just a moment. In one of his statements he said: \u201CLabour\u2019s no-interest loan scheme is rushed and reckless, thrown together in desperation before the election.\u201D Then, ratatat-tat! Further down the track, as he was flip-flopping, Mr Key said\u2014perhaps to a different audience, because I understand that he changes his response, depending on the audience he is standing in front of\u2014\u201CWe\u2019d have a look at it. Let\u2019s just see what conditions they put on it and what impact it has.\u201D Well, I wonder what audience he was standing in front of when he said that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003ELet us see what sort of a direction that is, coming from somebody who thinks he will be a leader of this country. It is kind of like those hats with two peaks we see some people wearing\u2014\u201CTake me to your leader.\u201D\u2014because he\u2019s never quite sure which way he\u2019s going. We are talking about education, which is one of the most important sectors in our society, and today we are talking about tertiary education. Fancy the main Opposition party not having a clear policy on tertiary education! Have members ever heard anything so vacuous? Have they ever heard anything that is so\u2014oh, we are not allowed to say that word? Have they ever heard of such lack of direction about a policy area that is so critically important to New Zealand\u2019s future? The main Opposition Party\u2014well, the party that purports to be the main Opposition party\u2014does not have a clear, unequivocal policy on tertiary education. I tell the National Party that it should get up to speed and get a policy. I ask it to give us a policy\u2014on anything!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2a0aef26e6f464a85758647b88fe350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2a0aef26e6f464a85758647b88fe350\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E What we heard from that member over there Jill Pettis\u2014\u201Crat-tat!\u201D\u2014was the drum roll when Chester Borrows rolled her out of the electorate of Whanganui by a handsome majority. \u201CRat-tat!\u201D was the sound of people in that electorate applauding when Chester Borrows replaced that member. That member over there, the previous member for Whanganui, spent a good portion of her speech saying thank you. Well, that is what the people of the Whanganui electorate said to Chester Borrows when he won that seat so handsomely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI wish to take a call on the Student Loan Scheme Amendment Bill (No 2). The main points I wish to raise are that we have a million people overseas, and some of our youngest and brightest are leaving our shores to work and further their education overseas. That is of real concern to the National Party. A lot of our youngest and brightest\u2014the brain drain\u2014are heading overseas. But National is supporting this bill for the reason that it is pretty much tidy-up legislation. In particular, it will actually allow the New Zealand Customs Service and the Inland Revenue Department to do further data-matching, which I think is very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThis is just a short call from the National Party to say that although we have some concerns, we support this bill because it is really a tidy-up of legislation that has been a little bit messy and not well-thought-through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f9bad28df59432f9502bec41c6fb98f\u0022\u003ECriminal Procedure Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dcd26ef04a174d3ca888e83c21b9a83a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000389\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 21 March.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5a3b5c3329741fabed3b2729f3c2372\u0022\u003EPart 2  Criminal Disclosure (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022042cd58e504d4668854b563f6524665f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022042cd58e504d4668854b563f6524665f\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I continue my call on Part 2 of the Criminal Procedure Bill. I have already outlined the two-page diagram and the four-stage disclosure requirement, which do seem somewhat convoluted and complex. I was halfway through relating the situation of the Institute of Environmental Science and Research, which, in its submission, advised that it provides forensic services and that it has major concerns over the potential implications of the time frames as a result of these disclosure requirements. In fact, it stated in its submission that it was \u201Cbemused by the apparent lack of consultation\u201D with the institute. There are times when the findings of the Institute of Environmental Science and Research are pivotal to the charge and summary of the facts, yet under the regime proposed by this bill the current turn-round times are incompatible with the time frames envisaged. The institute admitted that part of this was due to its capacity actually to do the work, but, more important, it is a matter of the inherent time it takes actually to process certain types of forensic work. If there is not enough time in which to undertake the proper forensic processes and they are going to be affected and jeopardised by this disclosure regime, which is complicated, then I would like the Minister in the chair, Mark Burton, to take a call and explain, firstly, what consultation he had with such forensic experts as the Institute of Environmental and Scientific Research and, secondly, how he thinks the process time frames will be able to meet the convoluted time frames that have been prescribed in Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe commentary on the bill states that the recommended changes to this fourfold disclosure regime aim to \u201Cclarify or augment the obligations on the prosecution, to reflect current practice and reaffirm an accused person\u2019s right to fair process, and to make the legislation more workable.\u201D It specifically states that the objective is to make the legislation more workable, but it cannot be workable if the institute does not have time to process its forensic projects. The legislation cannot be more workable if it so convoluted and complicated that an overview diagram of the disclosure provisions is actually included in the bill. The use of diagrams in legislation is not a common practice, and I would have thought that the drafting of this bill could be simplified so as not to need to describe the provisions by way of a diagram. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI do not believe that this legislation is very conducive to maximising the efficiency of the criminal justice system. I fear that rather than making access to justice quicker and more efficient, it appears to do the exact opposite by complicating the process, especially in relation to these disclosure requirements. If something is not broken, then we should not be attempting to fix it. It has been suggested that the current system works well. The New Zealand Law Society says that it works well, and those within the industry say that it works well. So we have to ask ourselves\u2014and I would like the Minister to answer this one, as well\u2014why we are trying to fix something that works well, with a complicated fourfold disclosure requirement that then needs a diagram to explain what is intended. On that note, I seek the Minister\u2019s response to those queries, and I certainly look forward to hearing from him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1ce5cb5a6864592bf790013a5ec206a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1ce5cb5a6864592bf790013a5ec206a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to begin to engage with the member, Kate Wilkinson, and she raises a number of important points. Firstly, I have heard a number of references to the use of a diagram, as though somehow, by its very existence, it suggests that the Criminal Procedure Bill is too complicated to understand in any other way. In fact, it was provided simply to assist with clarity. I thought it was a useful and practical tool and was the sort of sensible inclusion that I think we should make use of more often. But the fact remains, as the member noted in referring to the commentary, that the bill actually proposes a new, fourfold disclosure regime in order to consolidate what is already a very complex body of common law in legislation. That is the fact of the matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EMembers listening to Kate Wilkinson would be forgiven for thinking that what we were doing was moving from a very simple, straightforward current procedure to a very complex one. In fact, the reverse is true. The situation as it stands is complex. It has evolved over time. This procedure will clearly set out rules in one place rather than in more than one place, and not as the mixture of statute and case law that currently exists. It will mean that all parties can be more aware of what they are entitled to, what their responsibilities are, and what the required procedures and time frames are. I cannot see how moving from the complexity that has evolved over time\u2014which is the case now\u2014to a more systematic, consolidated approach does anything but assist in the execution of the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe member referred to the Institute of Environmental and Scientific Research and to our discussions with it. I can happily inform the member that there have been subsequent discussions with both the institute and the police. Ministry officials have engaged with them. I think it is fair to say that they report that, for the main part, the institute can meet within the time frames provided for in the vast majority of cases, and that in the few cases that it may be unable to meet the requirements, it can get an extension. That is provided for in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ETherefore, I think, in effect, the concerns the member raises have all been responded to. So I am confident that with those responses, the member will now be fully satisfied and will happily embrace Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7e368c5dd44479da358d326532de7eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7e368c5dd44479da358d326532de7eb\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I am not a lawyer. Before Mr Finlayson, in his own inimitable, charitable, and humble way, gets in to have a dig at those members who stand up and who are not lawyers, I will get in first to say that I am not a lawyer. I am sure that he is far more\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fa38744a85c47bb8f3b5728fdfceb55\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve said nothing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9202df5d8fc4f1f8e761c7d93ec0cc4\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I am just getting in first, because Mr Finlayson, who is one of the most charitable and humble members of the House, normally does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs a person who is a layperson and not a lawyer, I say that this Criminal Procedure Bill provides a decent disclosure regime and brings the law into this century. A lot has been made of the fact that preliminary hearings and, if you like, committal hearings will go, and therefore that defendants will be somehow stripped of their rights. It is worth noting that since 1977\u2014so the Law Commission, in its papers, and others, tell us\u2014committal hearings, or decisions on the papers in terms of committal to a trial, have been made in around 47 percent of cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe bill also allows some flexibility, which is something not evident under the present circumstances, in that if a committal is made on the papers by a judge, there is still the ability for counsel to make an application so that a preliminary hearing can come about. But that is a matter for the judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b784eb297d214efab91c7450d305ee05\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This debate is on Part 2, which is specifically about disclosure requirements; it is not about depositions or pre-trial hearings. It is very specifically about disclosure, and I do not believe that the member is talking about disclosure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70b18c9920c45da85c3d094f22da182\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is fair to say that when the Committee is conducting its business, members are generally given a little bit of leeway to explore the issues around the particular focus of the part. That is something that members have commonly done\u2014on both sides of the Chamber. As long as the member moves reasonably quickly to the appropriate part of the bill, that is generally seen as allowing for a certain amount of touching on related issues that members want during these debates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231678833116e4fd6bc20dc19bfb226ec\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Kate Wilkinson for raising the issue. The Minister has proposed a way through it, and I intend to follow that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a575c57896846ccb2cd3adb2e359109\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I bow to your learned judgment, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn essence, when enacted, Part 2 of the Criminal Procedure Bill will become a separate statute, referred to as the Criminal Disclosures Act. In essence, two major reports on reforming criminal disclosure have been written, both of which call for the implementation of a statutory regime for disclosure. These are actually learned reports\u2014the first being, of course, Report on Discovery in Criminal Cases, from the Criminal Law Reform Committee in 1986, and the second being Criminal Procedure: Part One Disclosure and Committal, Report 14 from the Law Commission 1990.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have to say, not being a lawyer but being one who observes legal practice through being a member of Parliament, that when law commissioners, eminent as they are, propose reforms, they should be listened to. There are various views within Law Society branches around the country in respect of this disclosure regime, but I would have thought that when law commissioners suggest changes like this\u2014which do bring a practical effect and a more speedy and efficient court system\u2014those of us who observe the law and are part of the legislative decision-making process should listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe member who took a point of order on me has been very vocal, of course, in trying to manufacture the proposal that we do not have such justice. Her favourite saying, which she quotes from history, is \u201CJustice delayed is justice denied.\u201D Well, this proposal, effectively to codify disclosure regimes, provides a more efficient court system. I would have thought that people would agree with that basic proposition. I see Mr Borrows over there, an ex-policeman who was involved, no doubt, in aiding the Crown in prosecution of many criminal cases. He would agree with the proposition that a more efficient court system provides a greater degree of justice to both defendant and victim. That is what these proposals in Part 2 are all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a66c5ee43164ad3a258976cacf1c316\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. I agree with what it\u2019s about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd195b9601d486b8c24c8fbccfce8c0\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: The member says he agrees with that, but of course his Supplementary Order Paper does not provide the back-up for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022464e3f78ef88469ea2bd933a80484573\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022464e3f78ef88469ea2bd933a80484573\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on Part 2. I agree, funnily enough, with Mr Cosgrove, who talked about the desirability of a more efficient court system, and we will see that as we go on to debate further parts in respect of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EPart 2 codifies a disclosure regime that exists currently, and that is a good thing. So we will be voting for this part. It allows for limited disclosure by accused people, but, in actual fact, it really only underlines two principles of the disclosure regime at the moment. One of those principles is alibi, which is already part of the law, and that accused people must disclose alibis at certain periods. Also, that there is no property in expert witnesses; they are supposed to be independent, and generally are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWhat is excellent is that the provisions of Part 2 allow for judges to set time frames on disclosure. A lot of good judges who allow cases to rattle through the court system, which brings justice to a speedy resolution, lead by example, through force of personality, and that is exactly what they do now. Judges themselves are divided, in respect of a point that Mr Cosgrove raised, on depositions. Those who wish to set those time frames tend to have speedy resolutions and go through the court system. I must say that it is a shame that there is not a clause in here that amends the Evidence Act in relation to requiring the police to speak to material witnesses who are readily available and ascertain evidence from them, because sometimes they choose not to interview the obviously available witness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI also point out to the Minister that the provisions of Part 2 actually achieve what he wants the provisions of Part 5, as they are written now, to achieve, and that is to bring about speedier jury trials. So I look forward to supporting Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022de9da4f71e4e4c93a2983744dfa98c14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de9da4f71e4e4c93a2983744dfa98c14\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise to speak in the Committee stage concerning Part 2. As previous speakers have indicated, this part will create a codification of the existing disclosure regime in criminal cases. It is important, in my view, to undertake this exercise. The current law is loosely based on the regime that came into force with the Official Information Act. That legislation, of course, was never intended by its framers as a full statute relating to disclosure in criminal matters; it is legislation that the judges have had to fashion into that sort of disclosure regime. So rather than relying on legislation that was not really intended for the purpose, and on judge-made law created under the legislation\u2014somewhat imaginatively, it might be said\u2014we have the opportunity to fashion a custom-made disclosure regime in criminal cases. It is appropriate to take that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs the Minister indicated, a fourfold disclosure regime is intended: initial disclosure on the part of the prosecution, followed by full disclosure. It is pleasing to note that the legislation indicates that the continuing disclosure obligation on the part of the Crown and the prosecution in these matters is preserved, and that it persists from the time of the commencement of a criminal proceeding, right through the prosecution of the matter, and through to the exhaustion of any appeals. It is appropriate that the State should bear that burden on a continuing basis, at all times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E The legislation, as has been said, also sets out a regime regulating disclosure by the defence\u2014a novel matter, but a matter that ought to be dealt with by statute\u2014and where, as will be seen, a number of competing interests are balanced. The disclosure regime relating to third parties is very significant, because obviously in criminal matters third parties will often have access to important information that will potentially be of assistance to either the prosecution or the defence. It ought to be the case that the court has an orderly way in which to be able to bring that information before it, following a hearing relating to its relevance and the court\u2019s satisfying itself that the party intended or named in the application actually has possession of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EMention was made of the diagram appearing after clause 18(2). In my view that diagram is a very helpful overview of the regime that applies. It will be of enormous assistance, particularly to lay people trying to understand just how disclosure obligations operate in District Court trials. I think it is perhaps a somewhat novel way to describe and set out obligations in a statute, but I think the Law and Order Committee is to be praised for having set it out in such clear terms. Clearly the diagram does not purport to create the obligations but simply to describe them, and it does so in a helpful way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI point to another couple of provisions in Part 2 that I think are worthy of mention. Clause 25, relating to service of applications for disclosure, clearly contemplates that such applications might be served by electronic means, which is clearly appropriate in the modern era. Facsimile transmission is also mentioned, and it is good to have that recognised explicitly in the statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClause 27 describes in detail the disclosure obligations on the prosecution, which are to operate within 21 days. In my view, clause 27 sets out a very comprehensive and appropriate code for initial disclosure. Clause 28 goes on to then describe the full disclosure obligations. Again, there is a very full and fair description in the code that will apply to prosecution obligations. It is a far more satisfactory state of affairs than exists under the current attempt to fashion a judge-made code largely based on the Official Information Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClause 29 provides for additional disclosure. It indicates that the defendant can, if he or she is dissatisfied with any aspect of the disclosure, request additional disclosure from the prosecution. This clause provides for the additional disclosure that may be requested from the prosecution. Where a request that has been made is declined, the prosecutor must give reasons for declining. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClause 30 makes it clear that there is no requirement to invent or come up with new information simply because of a disclosure request. Clause 31 sets out a very comprehensive code, under which the reasons for withholding information are set out. They are more comprehensive than those set out in the Official Information Act. They are very clear, and that will help parties to criminal litigation understand just why disclosure is declined in any particular case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClauses 32 and 33 go on to provide for further restrictions. Addresses of witnesses and informants can be protected\u2014clearly, that is an appropriate balancing exercise on the part of the House, and Parliament should go that way. Trade secrets are also protected in certain cases, and the committee has clarified the definition there in a helpful way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClause 35 deals with the disclosure obligations upon defendants. Again, a comprehensive code is set out that will make it clear what obligations exist. If alibi defences are to be brought up, then proper notice under clause 37 will need to be given, allowing for preparation in advance of any such defence being advanced. Expert witnesses are subject to a similar notice requirement by clause 38. If expert evidence is to be relied upon, then the prosecution is to have a chance to digest either the brief of evidence in advance or a fair summary of it, so that, again, the interests of justice are preserved and there is not defence by ambush in these cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClause 39, and those clauses that follow in Part 2, deal with disclosure by non-parties. As I said, it is a novel part of the regime. Clearly, there will be situations where information that is vital to either the prosecution or the defence in criminal proceedings exists, and that information is held by third parties. The legislation would set out a clear way for making an application for a party to disclose such material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EClause 40 sets out the tests on which the court must base its decision as to whether to grant a hearing for the disclosure of third-party material. It is a low threshold, and it seems appropriate. The consequences and the procedures by which third-party disclosure should be dealt with are also set out in the relevant clauses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EOne other point I would make is that the legislation sets out a sensible test for admissibility in the event that information exists, it is not disclosed, and it is then sought to be relied upon at the hearing. This is not a rigid test. Clause 47 sets out an interest of justice test, so that the court may determine whether, in all fairness, to admit the evidence, grant an adjournment, or to do anything else that does not prejudice the rights of the parties and the fairness of the procedure. It is unlike the inflexible test that operates, for example, in the US. There is not a \u201Cfruit of the poison tree\u201D test. The court has all the powers it requires in the interests of justice to decide whether to admit the information, to grant an adjournment, or to allow other things to be done in fairness to the parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00222619760951b74f19aacb31956da4e416\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222619760951b74f19aacb31956da4e416\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am not a lawyer, but I am most certainly interested in the fair application of the law, and that is why it was interesting to sit on the Law and Order Committee when this bill was considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThe Criminal Procedure Bill is significant in the fact that it is proposing new criminal disclosure legislation. It will establish a fourfold disclosure regime requiring initial, then full, disclosure. One of the other interesting aspects of this is that the proposed Act consolidates a complex body of common law and legislation that we were advised led to inconsistent disclosure practices. The committee emphasised that disclosure is a continuing obligation on the prosecution under the new Act, applicable both before and during a trial until all appeals are exhausted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EConsistency is a good thing in life and it most certainly is a good thing in the practice of the law. It is also the view that the changes recommended aim primarily to clarify or augment the obligations on the prosecution. Clarity in the application of the law is also critically important. The public perception is that justice needs to be fair and to be seen to be fair to all, because fairness in the application and execution of the law is in everyone\u2019s interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EPart of the aim of Part 2 is to make legislation that is more workable. We are all familiar with comments and representations made to us from the public about their confusion in regard to the application of the law as they come into contact with it, whether they are on the side of the accused or the victim in the whole legal argument. Anything that makes legislation more workable and more easily understood by the general public can be perceived and seen only to be a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EReference was also made to notice and plea in Youth Court proceedings. In New Zealand the Youth Court is a bit more under the spotlight these days. It receives more attention from the public, then, as a consequence, from the media. I am pleased to say that not all the publicity\u2014the public and media comment\u2014about the Youth Court is negative. This bill will certainly work, to some degree, to assist proceedings in the Youth Court. In the case of young persons in Youth Court proceedings, they are not required to plead but disclosure is triggered only when a not guilty plea is entered. Amendments in relation to the Youth Court are intended to accommodate Youth Court proceedings when no plea is entered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EPart 2 is about improving the efficiency of preliminary hearings and adding clarity to part of the court proceedings. I look forward to hearing further debate on this bill as the Committee stage ensues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00228e8a3bd3b6aa47db99113395be0d1118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e8a3bd3b6aa47db99113395be0d1118\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E It appears that members have raised the questions and issues that they wanted to raise. I will just round off this part of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223988ae32fa8f4a01ad278c3620c56e17\u0022\u003EChester Borrows\u003C/span\u003E: We have a great many issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022174efc9e73e24f04b6db73f3c971a4dc\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member should pay attention to his own colleague. I paid careful attention to Kate Wilkinson, who raised a number of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271c2f986f2af4d889fee8cd7842989d1\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282acda26292f4718930a08e9f429869b\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: There she is. She raised a number of sensible and reasonable questions that I think I can provide a reasonable answer to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EIt is worth reminding ourselves that under the current law, prosecution disclosure before trial is a mixture of case law and statutory rules under the Official Information Act 1982 and the Privacy Act 1993. It is a complex mix, and I think this point goes to the matters that Kate Wilkinson raised in her questions. It also explains the purpose of simplifying and putting into one place provision that indeed does assist all those issues around disclosure requirements in a more transparent and straightforward way. The key principle in criminal proceedings is that all of those matters that should be and are required to be disclosed to the defence are disclosed in a good and timely manner. These provisions will assist in that process, and I commend this part of the bill to members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 97 in the name of the Hon Mark Burton to Part 2, and the following amendments in his name to clause 56, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ESubclause (1): to omit \u201C, 2, 4, 5, and 6\u201D and substitute \u201Cand 2\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ESubclause (2): to omit \u201C, 2, 4, 5, and 6 (or\u201D and substitute \u201Cand 2 (as\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226aac51372da44c9cb09b7f1a9196317b\u0022\u003EPart 3  District Courts Act 1947\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b3ff95b632f4eab84dd3ed843ae9324\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 3, clauses 58 to 64, which includes debate on schedule 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u002267447233f5e04db988687b644e297096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267447233f5e04db988687b644e297096\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise to speak in the Committee stage on Part 3 of the Criminal Procedure Bill, which will make amendments to the District Courts Act 1947. The interesting aspect of this part of the bill is that it will deal with the jurisdiction of District Courts over a number of offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EUnder section 28A(1) in clause 60(1) these offences are: \u201C(a) any offence for which the accused elects under section 66 of the Summary Proceedings Act 1957 to be tried by a jury: (b) all indictable offences under any enactment (other than the offences referred to in Parts 1 and 2 of Schedule 1A): (c) the indictable offences referred to in Part 1 of Schedule 1A, in any case where\u2014 (i) the proceedings are transferred to the Court under section 168AA of the Summary Proceedings Act 1957; or (ii) a person pleads guilty under section 153A or section 168 of the Summary Proceedings Act 1957, before he or she is committed for trial or sentence to any such offence: (d) conspiring to commit an indictable offence to which paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) applies\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022279b6edc043c4cda824c3b48db81e598\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: What does that mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff57a8d555ff49f88f9773084e65708b\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure the member will be able to ask the Minister Mark Burton for a full explanation. Clause 60(1) continues: \u201C(e) attempting to commit an indictable offence to which paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) applies, or inciting or counselling or attempting to procure any person to commit any such offence, which is not committed: (f) being an accessory after the fact to any indictable offence to which paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) applies.\u201D The bill also goes on, in clause 61 to deal with maximum sentences, in clause 62 to deal with appeal against sentence, and in clause 62A to deal with regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt is clause 62A that I would like to speak on. Clearly, under the legislation, offences will be able to be added or removed from Parts 1 and 2 of schedule 1A, and transitional arrangements will be able to be made for the trial and sentencing of persons charged with those offences. This will be able to be effected by regulation. So middle banding will be able to be dealt with by way of Order in Council rather than by primary legislation. Although that is, in one way, offensive to the general principle that primary legislation ought to be amended only by further primary legislation, it does seem to be a sensible move. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI note that in the report of the Law and Order Committee the move is one that would be supported by the Chief Justice and would prevent officials from encountering the position they have told the committee\u2014according to its report\u2014they currently encounter, which is that the schedule relating to middle banding and indictable offences rapidly falls into inaccuracy because of the frequency with which it is amended. It is much better to be able to do it by regulation, to have the scrutiny of the Regulations Review Committee and the other safeguards that exist, and to be able to get on with it as the jurisdiction of the District Courts evolves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI note in that regard\u2014with great respect to the District Court bench\u2014it does seem to me to be sensible to be expanding the jurisdiction of that court by reference to the numbers of different types of more serious offence that that the court can hear and try. After all, the ranks of the District Court bench in recent years have been swelled by former Crown counsel, former partners in Crown solicitor firms, and former employees of those firms. They clearly represent a very, very strong level of expertise in criminal matters. It is appropriate to continue to expand the jurisdiction of the court in criminal matters, in light of the expertise that the court has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EWe also know that the High Court prefers that that should be the case\u2014that more criminal matters should be dealt with in the District Courts than in the High Court. It is better to leave the High Court for serious civil matters and appeals on decisions of registrars and what have you, and to have most matters of crime in principle dealt with in the District Courts. That is the direction that this legislation will take, and the schedule will be able to be updated\u2014as I mentioned\u2014by regulation. Thus, middle banded offences can more easily be kept up to date as society determines and as the House decides is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b23198f9c2e449e89e8b8c41f761f9e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b23198f9c2e449e89e8b8c41f761f9e7\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a very brief call on one particular part of the Law and Order Committee report in relation to Part 3 of the Criminal Procedure Bill; that is the item referring to the Regulations Review Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EI am thinking of my experience for 6 years as chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee. That was, thank goodness, prior to Mr Finlayson\u2019s arrival in this Parliament\u2014if he had been here he would have made my life quite unbearable. Anyway, it was a very functional committee, because the National MPs were particularly cooperative. We had occasion to, I guess one could say, clash horns or have debate with the Regulations Review Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EI note that when considering Part 3 of this bill, the Law and Order Committee sought advice from the Regulations Review Committee and received advice that at least one clause\u201462A, which the committee was mindful to introduce into the legislation\u2014\u201Craised a fundamental issue of principle in respect of the delegation of lawmaking powers by Parliament.\u201D I have to say that clause 62A does not seem to be as shocking as that, at least on the face of it. It covers an amendment to section 123(1) of the principal Act, and it adds a couple of paragraphs, (bf) and (bg), amending schedule 1A\u2014adding offences, and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EI guess the issue behind the concern of the Regulations Review Committee is about the flexibility of legislation. The Law and Order Committee had a look at the situation and noted in the commentary that \u201Cthe decision as to where a case is committed for trial will have no bearing on the rights of the person charged or the sentence that may be imposed.\u201D Obviously the committee took outside advice, notably from the Chief Justice, who supported the amendment. Since this legislation is really around making the court system work more effectively, the advice of the Chief Justice is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThe select committee also took account of the fact that any regulations made would have to go back to the Regulations Review Committee. This is really an example of the Regulations Review Committee giving advice that was considered and then rejected on particularly good grounds. The Regulations Review Committee has the power to call in any regulation for scrutiny, and it will continue to try to guard the rights of the citizen that could potentially be under threat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThat is really why the question was raised in the first place. I think it is worthy of note by members that this is quite a good example of the role that the Regulations Review Committee plays in both advising committees and guarding fundamental rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9adeb308e6c4de7ac19ed29bb14c6e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9adeb308e6c4de7ac19ed29bb14c6e1\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I have just a couple of points. Firstly, clause 60 of the bill, importantly, clarifies the extended jurisdiction of the District Court, and that is effectively a tidying-up provision that is quite important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI want to comment briefly on the contributions from Tim Barnett and also from Charles Chauvel. [Interruption] It was an offering of high standard, I have to say. MMP has thrown up some interesting challenges to Governments, but it has also offered up\u2014and here we see a good example of it\u2014some of the benefit that can accrue from the interaction between various parts of this institution. I have to say I was very encouraged by the interaction between the Regulations Review Committee and the Law and Order Committee, and by the manner in which that interchange scrutinised and examined what is an important question of jurisdiction in looking at the regulation-making powers that are contained in clause 62A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EIf we look at the commentary on the bill, we see an exchange and a working through of the issues. I believe that this has, in the end, produced a very strong and conclusive result, and one, as has been mentioned, that also enjoys the support of the Chief Justice. This is a smaller part of the bill, but it reflects some of the benefits that can come from the changes that have happened within this institution, and in terms of the interaction between\u2014in this case\u2014the select committee and the Regulations Review Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u00220bb47ab3c7a3406e928e3493424ed690\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bb47ab3c7a3406e928e3493424ed690\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chairperson. I am concerned about the note about changing unanimous verdicts to majority verdicts. Is that in Part 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287338e54a97d419e8034fc5a7f46c7ad\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s Part 4, Hone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998e25e54a594a3286415bb46d5b5422\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA\u003C/span\u003E: Is that Part 4? I will save it for Part 4. On Part 3, I will just let it slide there, Mr Chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b2ee9d20f04123b89af3d88d71494d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Clayton Cosgrove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022de77df707fb54b3698af002dfa01f880\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de77df707fb54b3698af002dfa01f880\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Forgive me, but in the din my colleague pointed out that Mr Clarkson may have wanted to take the call. I am happy to yield and take the following call. Unlike Mr Finlayson, I am a humble and charitable member, so I am happy to yield to Mr Clarkson if he would like to take a call. I am happy to follow him, because I do not think he has had the opportunity to take a call in this debate; I have, so I am in your hands, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd61750cd334d64a75429b9361d93a1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for your generous thoughts but I made the call, and I called the Hon Clayton Cosgrove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f74b49073bb47f1bab879ed5f9467d1\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I am indebted to you, Mr Chair. Part 3 is an exceptionally small part of the Criminal Procedure Bill. As other of my colleagues have said, essentially the bill widens the jurisdiction of the District Court in criminal matters. There is the interesting term \u201Cmiddle banding\u201D, which I am sure Mr Finlayson, as a learned barrister, could elucidate for me as a non-lawyer. I invite him to take a call. The middle-band offences, as set out in the schedule, can be tried either in the High Court or in the District Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe other aspect to Part 3, of course, is that from now on changes in middle banding will be made by regulation, rather than legislation. What that does is to make a far more efficient process, both in the courts and in this House, because if changes to middle banding have to be made, we do not have to go through the exhaustive procedure of passing legislation. They can be made through regulation, with the safeguard, of course, of the Regulations Review Committee scrutinising those aspects and keeping all parties honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI would again say that this measure modernises our court system. It provides a more efficient regime for our court system, and far more flexibility. Some people on the other side of the House have in earlier calls, I believe, argued against middle banding and expressed concern in respect of it. But changes, as I said, can be made through regulation. What is wrong with that? I would have thought that is far better than going right through a new consultation process with the public, and trotting back to the House with legislation. I would think it is better than going through first, second, and third readings and a select committee process, etc. and then trying to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIf there are good ideas that come from learned judges, the Law Commission, or learned barristers and lawyers across the other side of the Chamber\u2014and I see one has just come in; no, I was looking at the wrong person\u2014those can be assessed in a relatively swift manner. [Interruption] I was looking at Mr Henare and thinking he was a barrister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f67563215b475f8c7fe29614c342ce\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: A bush lawyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b6b9c68cd140e2968ea4858e8a2879\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague says Mr Henare is a bush lawyer. I do not think it is fair to say that Mr Henare is a bush lawyer, at all. He is certainly not a lawyer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc9fb07dc36f46f48c239c803d054f87\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What would you know about the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8294ad0d5ea43e2b80688976d1871e2\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: I probably know as much as Mr Henare, although most people would know a tad more. Regulations can be used in a flexible fashion so that we can make our court system more efficient. [Interruption] Mr Henare seems to be arguing against\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225289217c96a042099c10dad2e834db46\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. A member opposite is heckling while standing in the aisle. I am not sure whether that is allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243f22f4a43c441a3b09da3c8bf2c2d42\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: You are absolutely right, Mr Barnett. Members are not to speak or call out unless they are sitting on their benches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc188b74edd47dead6c16d942c403a9\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. That is all right; I do not mind Mr Henare having a go. It adds to the colour and entertainment in this Chamber. I think Mr Henare is more akin to being a Porirua public bar bouncer. His profession should be as a doorman, or doorkeeper, or whatever one calls it, rather than as a member of this Parliament. I can imagine Mr Henare standing in a public bar and head-butting the punters as they come in. He is more akin to that than to the style and honourable nature of this Parliament. We cannot get the thug out of some people, obviously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI fail to see how the Opposition could argue against provisions that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6c2d8a8852d43a1ab2a8ec649d80e67\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not arguing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227979d3b88f5740c9b35fecce71f253ec\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we have convinced Opposition members, obviously. Obviously, the power of the Minister of Justice\u2019s arguments has convinced the Opposition, because now I am being heckled by members who say that they agree with the bill! So I commend the Minister of Justice for the persuasiveness of his arguments, for the depth of his logic, and for his progressive and innovative ideas, which have obviously swung this debate round. [Interruption] Mr Borrows interjects. I acknowledge his interjection that he agrees with the bill and that he supports the bill. I think Mr Borrows has exhibited\u2014at least with this legislation, but not with some other bills\u2014a degree of progressiveness that, sadly, is lacking in some of his colleagues in the National Party. So I commend Mr Borrows for that. He is obviously a leader, or potential leader, of the National Party, because he has been persuaded by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2007032266ab0b940bdd47bc9570ff31c0b71bae000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"