"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ccc6c9e8bd94e51be3d5a9016d238ec\u0022\u003ETuesday, 3 April 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b982a205b114fdd96c747692504e5ab\u0022\u003ETuesday, 3 April 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002206335b525e6f4f0ca2bd9dd91746c41e\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d1bcc32ec4d434080422aa4f6bdcb30\u0022\u003ECo-operative Republic of Guyana\u2014Minister of Amerindian Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u002266b250e294df4db0bc3ca30fd2363f07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266b250e294df4db0bc3ca30fd2363f07\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing members that the Hon Mrs Carolyn Rodrigues-Birkett, Minister of Amerindian Affairs of the National Assembly of the Co-operative Republic of Guyana, is present in the gallery. I am sure that members would wish that she be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0c7bbb8f7f945bba052f141c87eb545\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bba7ecfb21294732b13fa5e9b425f3e4\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0b9a6af4fda4d81b885f0fcef76e53f\u0022\u003EHealth, Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022933eb41fdd384ee2b007e151d82bc33e\u0022\u003E1. JOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Health; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00229f524996deba4e0f8e27196535d5bfc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f524996deba4e0f8e27196535d5bfc8\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240c76970ea4e46b890b05f5eb1af41c5\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the Minister of Health exercised the appropriate level of oversight when the Auckland district health boards negotiated the contract for pathology services with Labtests Auckland; if so, does she therefore think that sole responsibility for any alleged wrongdoing could rest only with those who, in fact, signed the contract, in particular Wayne Brown and Ross Keenan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ec25bd7fec4ae2b658d7e786807a97\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac4124d150c4e1d8bc7fda2acbb1aec\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agreed with the Minister of Health that the appropriate time for the Government to determine accountability of this mess was after the interim contract was signed with Diagnostic Medlab last week, in which case will she today express confidence or otherwise in Wayne Brown and Ross Keenan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e6d5eadedcd4b55bcf89afef9421d1d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, because \u201Cafter\u201D has a while to run.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073eb5df71d34ccb88879a30fc4d7217\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she still have confidence in a Minister of Health who did not act against Government-appointed officials who signed a contract with someone who was\u2014to use her words\u2014\u201Cduplicitous\u201D and had \u201Ca blatant conflict of interest\u201D, but now wants to act against the same officials or the same individuals before the Crown can even determine whether an appeal will be lodged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287461d1ad794436c906b704b086d40eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Because the extent of that Tory friend\u2019s duplicity has only become visible with the court judgment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae5823b46904490ad8d6e060bca7626\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Has it not dawned on the Prime Minister that by delaying any statement of confidence in the Auckland district health boards until after the appeal process has played out, she is practically inviting those directors to lodge an appeal in order to save their jobs for at least a year, if not more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b09648296594fa9a42166e8e3f377e9\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, nor do I intend to cut across appeal rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1bf55baf984435ae627a772d963bf4\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Has she, as Prime Minister, or has her Minister of Health, sought or received legal advice on sacking the directors of the Auckland district health boards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8991fb66c1d4eb1befe78d1bf617028\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That is premature. Obviously, the Government proceeds carefully. There is an appeal period yet to expire. What is being explored is the full range of options; and the full range, of course, goes from expressing confidence, to people going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fcbb7c8ee2647988d4f16c510870837\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: If the conflict of interest that Dr Bierre had was \u201Cblatantly obvious\u201D, as she said last week, why does she need to wait any longer before she expresses confidence or otherwise in those who signed the flawed contract with Dr Bierre?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d592a11c214f28b634d4d8851c43b3\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I would have thought it was blatantly obvious, which is why I am rather well disposed towards the court judgment, but I am aware there is an appeal period yet to expire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c601333dd89e49179fc6c5960c537e52\u0022\u003EMinimum Wage\u2014Recent Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b124f455bd094b5996de89109fc9a588\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What changes were made to the minimum wage last Sunday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00229e25dfd521134f50bddf65414edabfbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e25dfd521134f50bddf65414edabfbe\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased that last Sunday the adult minimum wage had its biggest increase since 1999, from $10.25 to $11.25 an hour. The youth rate increased from $8.20 to $9 an hour. This change effectively gives 109,100 workers a pay rise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a930a7b3dbc4802a49bd17a08ab92db\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen any reports on changes to the minimum wage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b1e98ee43d49568ea6b3b8d15829ff\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. I have seen a report that notes that the Labour-led Government has raised the minimum wage each and every year it has been in office, from $7 an hour in 1999 to $11.25 this year\u2014a total rise of $4.25 an hour, or 61 percent. This result stands in stark contrast to the last National Government, which over 9 years raised the minimum wage by less than $1 an hour, or 14 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220f117a7d9b24a969dc75893f25300a5\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister able to assure the House that by this time next year the minimum wage will have increased a further 35c, which is a mere 3.1 percent, to make $12 per hour as stipulated in the confidence and supply agreement with New Zealand First; if not, will she tell the House how the minimum wage will reach $12 per hour before the end of 2008?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e229ad34a624868931f9792579354fc\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: If the minimum wage was to rise by only 35c an hour, that would be in breach of the accord we have with both New Zealand First and the Green Party. We are aiming to increase the adult minimum wage by 75c an hour next year, which will take it to $12 an hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2959108db4d4949afdce9a6610972bb\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen any other reports on other changes to the minimum wage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022349f8eb0587a4df19da60c037f5f3411\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. I am pleased to say that I have seen supportive statements from different sectors, including health care providers, the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, New Zealand First, the Greens, and the Progressive party. However, I seem to be missing one\u2014from a so-called supporter of raising the minimum wage, who again confirms the surveyed opinion of a growing number of New Zealanders that he is simply more style than substance. That person is John Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226047725352814c2a88441b977acae2f0\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Standards and Achievement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a95c20a382a48bfbc94cea6e42254b0\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CIn the school sector, our main focus will continue to be on standards and achievement, especially in literacy and numeracy.\u201D; if so, what are those standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef2039bb0a143f8acf8fa9fa0b42bfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef2039bb0a143f8acf8fa9fa0b42bfd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; and the standards reached in our schools are very high, with the achievement level of New Zealand students overall ranked sixth in the OECD, and the top 40 percent said to rate as the best in the OECD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c5b5d60f6e4b409fb2433916f35a9f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: How many New Zealand children left primary school last year without reaching the standard expected of them in reading, writing, and maths?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c433572136324509911c404eb5ff2029\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike the member, the Government does not support age-related national standards, testing, and league tables. We do not impose centrally minimum standards. We know that the National Party thinks National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) sometimes runs the risk of ticking the box; now it wants to do this for 6-year-olds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e58c84e20244ee7a79f67b125f5805a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen reports of how the New Zealand education system compares with systems with national standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b182254e82f4290b086e2008967d95f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have indeed seen a report from the New Zealand Principals Federation, which states that our education system is the envy of countries that have standardised testing. I would further say that in the very week when 1,400 principals have come from around the world because they admire our education system, the Leader of the Opposition has bagged it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba56e5fcfc334d989cbc345d77ecfc9c\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: What proportion of primary schools does the Prime Minister believe send out reports that read like real estate ads, and does she believe that anyone who suggests that that is the practice of most schools is blatantly insulting the professionalism of our primary education service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5709649fce7418a9cbe3a9787a4515c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Such a person not only would be insulting the professionalism of our teachers, which I have great respect for, but also would be totally out of touch with what happens in our State schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cd1c494ec9548af8692121150922e53\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that a policy to test kids more but then failed to provide any additional funding for support staff or more programmes would serve only to stigmatise young students, without offering them any support they may need to do better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a396610db68848db9aefa196da77f336\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, and such a policy would be a very empty policy. I would add to \u201Cempty\u201D the description \u201Cconfusing\u201D, after what the Leader of the Opposition offered yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976980fe3df64816b789dc5cfef06af9\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that testing primary-aged children against standards should, and does, take place regularly, but that its primary purpose is as a diagnostic tool for teachers and parents, and that, as such, this information must be readily available for parents at all times?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022646f1f5719e941468f0309e3bd1dc016\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I absolutely agree with the assertion in the member\u2019s question, and say that information is available to our parents\u2014as it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228575ff22fc69463d9a668bb5f0f758f1\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. Is the Prime Minister aware of the Ministry of Education report, Achievement at Maori Immersion and Bilingual Schools, which shows that year 11 candidates at bilingual schools did very well in meeting the literacy and numeracy requirements of NCEA level 1, and were more likely to meet these requirements than both M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori in English medium schools; and how will she use that information to support M\u0101ori immersion programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a59517f3283240f1818d32657ee777e5\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am broadly aware of those results and of the fact that our bilingual schools are doing particularly well for our students, and I think that it does show what investment in te reo can do to help raise achievement overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a3c6d8ce128434884a1691c5de3546c\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason that the Prime Minister would not answer my earlier supplementary question\u2014which asked how many children were leaving primary school without reaching the expected standard in literacy of reading, writing, or maths\u2014that the Government has not actually set a standard, and therefore the Government has absolutely no clue how many children fail to meet the standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adaaa2af45a346f4b2ed591572ee2801\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That approach was abolished in the 1930s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233128de0d75f4e348e76535e878d902f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As my colleague the previous Minister of Education said, that approach was abolished in the 1930s. We do not have centrally imposed minimum standards that result in a \u201Ctick the box\u201D approach to education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faf075f56acc450f83bdb5a32c5867d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the purpose of testing tools, such as asTTle and Supplementary Test of Achievement in Reading, is diagnostic to enable teachers to recognise where remedial work is required, and the kind of national testing in standards advocated by the Leader of the Opposition stigmatises children early in their school career, leading to later failure rather than success?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294437a5725f8464aa7d1c44203f2cfcd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely agree with that. The Leader of the Opposition\u2019s approach reminds me very much of the failed Eleven plus approach that used to prevail in the United Kingdom and saw so many children condemned to failure from an early age.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3211c6df25e42699a11b3d44d09bbda\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister come with me to Glen Taylor School, a decile 1 school in Glen Innes, and observe the work of the principal, Lyn Avery, who has used exactly the formula I outlined yesterday\u2014a school that has received outstanding Education Review Office reports since she took over but that, for the previous 12 years, received Education Review Office reports that were very poor indeed; and will she explain to Lyn Avery that what she is doing is wrong and she would rather they go back to the failed policies of the past?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260bf0e41dbf44763b230b7c61f3f5ce5\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That school is one of hundreds and hundreds of good State schools, about which the member knows little, that apply those assessment tools to develop children\u2019s learning. The member really is very out of touch with what happens in our State schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4634b9dc604b3c945c3cb7c16be8b9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I could not hear that answer, at all. The level of barracking is now rising again. I am sure members at the back of the Chamber could not hear the answer, either. I ask all members to keep the noise down or we will be having questions and answers in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd6caf1bf94c433db48377219a84240f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister receiving reports suggesting why it is sensible to introduce standards-based assessment in primary school when people are in the early stages of education and reject it in their late stages of secondary school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267953f24ddac43ae97c44c0d9cae11b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am indeed struck by the irony that the National Party preaches one thing for primary school students and another for secondary school students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc54425447be4397bde4a5e20ef1fe00\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister explain to the country and to the parents of New Zealand what is wrong with determining a minimum standard about whether their child can read, write, and do maths, what is wrong with using one of the well and truly approved tests such as asTTle, Supplementary Test of Achievement in Reading, or progressive achievement test, what is wrong with using the diagnostic information that comes from those tests to improve teaching standards and to improve the outcome of those schools, and, finally, what is wrong with giving that information to parents in New Zealand about what their child is doing\u2014because if the Prime Minister thinks that is wrong, then she is the one that is out of touch, not the National Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221121b409f8cb46faa4190784c9a8b359\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, some of my answers have really stung the member today because he is out of touch with what happens in our State schools. I am advised that our Education Review Office finds that something like 90 percent of our schools are good or very good at informing parents on how our children are doing, and we are working on the others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c539d0fd6158464885527aa8dd669f6a\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Education Review Office stated last week that one in two schools are not effectively reporting to parents about their children\u2019s education, and has it now dawned on the Prime Minister that the one of us who is out of touch is not me, but her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022777589f7fb9d4b97b57429e372e398b9\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Of course the member has just managed to utterly misrepresent what the Education Review Office report stated. What actually happened is that in the past assessment used to be put on the shelf and not looked at again; now it is supposed to be used to inform a teacher as he or she prepares the learning programme. About half our schools are making progress on that; the other half could do better\u2014and we are working on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd333835133743a2a4e4f7f53cce6eb5\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the Education Review Office report shows that 90 percent of primary schools\u2014the schools the Leader of the Opposition is attacking\u2014are said to provide feedback that is very good, or good, to all parents, and that only 4 percent of primary schools were identified as not doing this; and would the Prime Minister say that this is an inopportune time for the Leader of the Opposition to attack these schools as 1,400 principals from around the world are gathered in Auckland because the system is so good and they have come to look at it, while he is bagging it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d5d2ea571b24dc09bd10a0f99406926\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is exactly right. Firstly, 90 percent of our schools are said to be good or very good at informing parents about how their children are doing. Secondly, 1,400 principals have come from around the world because they admire the New Zealand school system. Thirdly, the member just does not get direct feedback from our State school system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbbebd8278014f209c78d1c1bcba294b\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Government\u2019s own agency, the Education Review Office, says that one in five children is not succeeding at school and that schools are, in fact, doing a bad job of identifying those students who are struggling; and, if the Prime Minister cares about all of the children in New Zealand, she will focus not just on those who absolutely do achieve well at school but will take some time to work out why 150,000 children are now failing to reach even minimum standards in literacy and numeracy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ee51294b5d046e0b6349a47eca9aaaa\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The member should be well aware that across the population there is a range of levels of ability and that there are, conventionally, thought to be something like one in five children who may have difficulty even fitting into the discipline structure of a school, which makes it hard to learn. Our Government is absolutely committed to raising standards for those children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb7a9633687e437c96a016c8cf395e6a\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that at the international conference in Auckland, where 1,400 principals from around the world are joining principals in this country, the emeritus professor at Warwick University, Sir Ken Robinson, told the conference that in most education systems there is confusion between standardising education and raising education standards, and that he described standardising tests as the \u201Cenemy of achievement\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c2fc055c2a465db1077ae445316f6e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have indeed had that statement referred to me, and I believe it would be consistent with a wide body of professional opinion about testing. I am further aware that the chief executive of the exams watchdog in the United Kingdom, the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority, has come out and suggested that in that country the tests for 11-year-olds should be scrapped. At the very time these issues are being reconsidered in the United Kingdom, the National Party wants age-related national standards, testing, and league tables. Unless ACT has spoken up, I am not aware of any political party in this Parliament that would support it, because it is so old-fashioned and wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b18aca65a694a509f159ac0ea6533fb\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You regularly appeal to the House to come to order to give questioners a fair go, and all the rest of it. Although none of that is, strictly speaking, written in the Standing Orders, there is a convention that the House would, obviously, follow that. Question time is for the Opposition to question the executive. I suggest to you that there is also a strong convention that the executive does not question itself during question time. Yet today we have had no less than four Ministers ask a total of six supplementary questions of the Prime Minister. We have even seen the absurdity of the Minister of Education asking the Prime Minister questions about his own portfolio. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9d58963e08d4ccfac7443ec2921d39f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do members want to stay in the Chamber? Points of order are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6fcacf2e0c042038fccfc02a4f67bf7\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Parliament is supposed to be a place where information is made available to people\u2014at least, question time is\u2014by virtue of Opposition questions. I know you will say that there is no strict restriction on members of the executive asking each other questions, or perhaps taking the opportunity of having the time to talk to one another, but I think it would be fair to say that that is not how question time runs. It may help with the general order of the House if members of the Labour Government recognised that and started having their conversations in the lobbies or in their own offices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022954aacaade1b46c984e8a998a065cf5d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I notice that the member referred to \u201Cno less than four Ministers\u201D. Of course, in the light of the previous range of questions, it should have been \u201Cno fewer than four Ministers\u201D, so the member failed that standards-based achievement. But apart from that, there is no such convention in this House. Ministers have raised supplementary questions on many occasions over many, many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1100fb683684952b8ae23b5bac7142e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members. As the member who raised the original point of order noted, I have ruled on this before. There is nothing to prevent Ministers from asking supplementary questions. There is, however\u2014and I think we are fast getting to it\u2014not only a convention but also a Standing Order stating that members are entitled to be heard in the House. So if we have a continuation of what we have had so far, then we will be having question time in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291870925265f4a90ac8831bc0a36e91b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It was very clear from the beginning what the tenor and purpose of the last point of order was. In short, it had no merit, whatsoever. So, Madam Speaker, my inquiry is to ask why you heard the member out when the point of order was nonsense. I do not believe that you would have heard out another member from this end of the House, had he or she sought to raise such a spurious point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b92b08c0c84f1cb77408834b7e8bf6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I do hear lots of spurious points of order. Perhaps at times I should cut them short, but I find it quicker sometimes to hear them than to not hear them. Could we please now proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e99a550d982c4e0595f3e541440555d6\u0022\u003EReal Estate Industry\u2014Reform Proposals\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f926fe916c804972bb5185d63fc11f52\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Justice: What response has he received to proposals to reform the real estate industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bb6eee5dcb4d0fa119968a966745c1\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that this is a slightly longer answer than normal, but not too long, I hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u002223f2ed89f7db4cf0989be2716ab81ae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223f2ed89f7db4cf0989be2716ab81ae7\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The response has been overwhelmingly positive. Deb Leask, whose agents attempted to lowball her property sale by around $120,000, states she is \u201Cabsolutely very impressed\u201D with the proposals, and that the \u201Coverhaul will ensure that consumers are protected from real estate agents who could take advantage of them\u201D. John Ottaway, who, with his partner, Caitlin, was ripped off to the tune of $35,000, stated: \u201CThe overhaul was the best thing that could happen.\u201D, and: \u201CWhat\u2019s taken place with us is rank. It stinks of the old boys\u2019 network and them looking after their own.\u201D John Haycock, who was ripped off to the tune of $20,000, stated: \u201CI want to see a complete restructure. I think its essential that they have an independent body to handle complaints. Under the present system everything is slanted in the real estate agent\u2019s favour.\u201D Finally, Chris Taylor of the real estate agent company The Joneses commended the proposal, stating: \u201CTinkering with the current legislation, as the Real Estate Institute had suggested, was never going to solve the fundamental problems arising from real estate agents regulating themselves.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b22faff3639449efa213a547a10e4c0c\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: What measures are proposed to reform the real estate industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b22584330c24b5e971d6e3fa8234224\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: There will be a complete overhaul of the Real Estate Agents Act 1976 in order to deliver accountability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224492b2b4aa4b4fc992bc9945ebb2991a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: When?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab5a97b9b5d452ebe0fd20dfbb34b00\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014hold on, I say to those members; help is on the way\u2014transparency, and openness within the sector, and an independent and open complaints and disciplinary system. The freedom to self-regulate that is granted by current legislation is now perceived as industry protectionism rather than consumer protection. The overhaul will deal with licensing, training, complaints, discipline, and regulation of real estate activity, including whether compulsory membership of the real estate agents institute is appropriate, whether all facets of licensing should be independent of the industry, and whether the industry itself should fund the reforms, rather than the taxpayer. To answer the members\u2019 question, a paper setting out the detailed proposal for reform will be released in May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d493378b56444ef18dbeb686de724c1c\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards, Auckland\u2014Confidence in Chairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022835cad8a85684b1e8622f7c94bdb6b95\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he have confidence in the chairs of the Auckland district health boards, Wayne Brown, Pat Snedden, and Kay McKelvie; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022d45d5c9421b445a6887700d7333ccc1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d45d5c9421b445a6887700d7333ccc1f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E All chairs and board members retain their full roles and responsibilities right now. The bright line of confidence or no confidence is of limited value at present, for two reasons. One is that the judgment may be appealed; another is that there is legal debate as to whether the judgment is new law. That said, the judgment of serious procedural error has been made, and that is, therefore, the current position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211cfca0dd586407ca9418f929aba1c7a\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s position now on when he will deliver accountability in the Auckland lab testing fiasco: his original view, when he promised that it would happen once the interim contract was signed, the Prime Minister\u2019s view that it would occur after the appeal period, or his view expressed this morning, when he said he may have announcements later this week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277c8feb8cef4f91be17c33dbcb7c98a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will probably have announcements later today, actually. In respect of the interim contract, I simply said that my confidence hinged on the district health boards\u2019 ability to get that done in a timely way\u2014and they did so. I thank all of those who were involved in that negotiation. The interim agreement saves 10 million valuable health dollars over 18 months, without any reduction in quality or service. Those savings are sufficient to produce about 50 additional cataract operations for Aucklanders every week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab11fad3add549dc8b0c6860cf529de3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister realise that an appeal may take years to be heard, and why is he denying accountability by colluding with the Prime Minister to put political mateship before the public interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284b612038e0a435fb0ee71e8eeb6d5c5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: One presumes that the political mateship the member refers to is the political mateship that apparently exists between this Government and Wayne Brown or this Government and Ross Keenan. The first Government to appoint Wayne Brown or Ross Keenan to the health system was not this Government but the previous National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022349f380691064e0ab9798d9efa8f74af\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What correspondence did the Minister receive, in the months following the awarding of the Auckland laboratory contract, concerning Dr Bierre\u2019s conflicts, and what action did he take in response to that correspondence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd56198f8af240aabec900f98dbf78d3\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I received, from memory, a question from Dr Paul Hutchison in July of 2006 that first raised the issue of a conflict of interest, and I went immediately to the Auckland District Health Board for its view of that. Its view was\u2014and, until the court case judgment came out, it remained\u2014that the conflict of interest had been properly dealt with. On top of that, of course, I received a large amount of correspondence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022388e9d62244b4c9b83b1beedf8f7a6d9\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: What inquiries did the Minister make as a result of receiving that large amount of correspondence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314f55798dc84f42a2a0e1a5d3a3ce6d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: All correspondence was responded to. The assurance that the Auckland district health boards gave me, through the Ministry of Health, regarding the conflict of interest was an assurance that stood right through the process\u2014and, in fact, right through until the Tuesday before last. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b98a25a2a1e4958a2bda3dc2c3d63d8\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Was the only time that the Minister sought information on Dr Bierre\u2019s conflict of interest when he was replying to a written question in July 2006; if not, on which other occasions did he seek assurances or ask questions about the allegations around Dr Bierre\u2019s behaviour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227888d859533e4971b08bb7374bea08b7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I maintained a close watch on that laboratory contract, as did a number of people, including the Health Committee, which had the Auckland district health boards in front of it. I do not recall any questions about a conflict of interest from the member of the select committee who is asking these questions. However\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222348456f4d84d3a8a66c1cfd872cacc\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s because it was sub judice. What an idiot!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a35981c5754300bf3f9a9d6827fa70\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I see. So somehow\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1054a129fc140a884d02dd4c91235e0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is attempting to answer the question despite constant interruptions, and being called an idiot is likely to cause disorder. Would the Minister please continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3683f68e1fb45a1b746ba199fba5c2a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member seems to specialise in politics\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b59794019ca247699da32027540b4bca\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let us just get on with it, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022901cfa74322642c59159c625c7868754\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that are destructive and vindictive. I prefer a style that respects natural justice, that responds to facts as they continue to unfold, and that does not respond to the hysteria of others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5db70e85acc4fe7944a3ea5e01c77d5\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: So from the upshot of questions in the House today, is the Minister admitting that the only time he ever sought information, asked questions, or tried to satisfy himself around the number of allegations surrounding Dr Bierre\u2019s behaviour, in terms of this contract, was when he referred a written question once to his ministry\u2014and that he never again sought to ask further questions or satisfy himself in respect of those allegations; if that is the case, how does he deserve to have a ministerial warrant when he did not even seek basic information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8460b06ba7c4f45961dac90ed71d8c2\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I sought advice around the issue of laboratory testing in Auckland for over a year on a consistent basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c11dcd1c9974c92b8a9033f5472eb9e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Did you ask anyone about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f7ff445480644d29ec07601b3ccb2a7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E:. I asked the Ministry of Health about various aspects of the tender. I asked the Auckland District Health Board, when I met its members the month before last, about various aspects of the tender\u2014and on it went. There was a lot of information to be received, and there was a lot of concern, including concerns raised by the Health Committee, which that member was on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046b3ddd837f42a0a536acc21c3ede15\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of Mr Ryall\u2019s attack on Wayne Brown, I seek leave to table the list of appointments of Wayne Brown made by the previous National Government, of which Mr Ryall was a member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4b8298fff884dc0a232de266f6d32ca\u0022\u003EPharmac\u2014Herceptin, International Clinical Trial\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3cc4451972b45daa799374c93a29c1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement that the Pharmac board signed off on the decision to commit $3.2 million to the international clinical trial that is planned on Herceptin on 31 January 2007; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00229fe6232ca0d347c7aaabcb4d9b20db88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fe6232ca0d347c7aaabcb4d9b20db88\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I can say to the member that yes, I do, because it is true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022495c69e2cbaf46d3ba1935f7241c8097\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If that is true, why then is Pharmac on record, on 7 March 2007, as saying that this money did not have Pharmac board approval; and why is Pharmac proposing to fund 9-week trials of Herceptin and Docetaxel, which is on the Pharmaceutical Schedule for New Zealand women with early-stage breast cancer, from June 2007, when the Ministry of Health\u2019s Medsafe will approve such a treatment only if it is to be used for at least 12 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291076d9f7b254f37805481ca921fa7a8\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to the first question is that the meeting of 7 March was between the chief executive of Pharmac and someone from the Breast Cancer Advocacy Coalition\u2014I think that is its name\u2014and the chief executive of Pharmac made a mistake. He then realised later that he had made a mistake, and on 19 March he phoned the spokesperson to correct the error. That is the case, and the phone message is documented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222348976225204a3f8aacdce55d90e1a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I was trying to clear up the first issue, but the real issue in that second question concerns why Pharmac is proposing to fund 9-week trials of Herceptin and Docetaxel, which is on the Pharmaceutical Schedule for New Zealand women with early-stage breast cancer, from June 2007, when the Ministry of Health\u2019s Medsafe will approve such a treatment only if it is to be used for at least 12 months. I want an answer to that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ca39f31a71748c8998578b9fd351ca6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not a point of order; it was in the form of a question. Is the member\u2019s point of order that the Minister did not address the question? Well, it seemed to me that he did actually address that question, but the Minister may wish to address the supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b01c2e742faa43659f374bce171ee71d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The process is still continuing. The district health boards are in a consultation phase to see whether they will proceed with 9-week treatments from 1 July. If they do, that may be in the form of a trial, or it may not. If it is to be in the form of a trial, it will be compared, one assumes, against 12-month treatments. The reason for that trial, if it is to proceed, is simply that although the 9-week research is significant\u2014that is to say, the non-return rate of breast cancer is statistically significant\u2014the trial is somewhat underpowered because the numbers were low. It was considered legitimate and reasonable for taxpayers\u2019 money to take part in a larger trial to ensure that 9-weeks\u2019 treatment is as significant as early indications would suggest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290184109392d4541b063cebadfb9b25e\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: How was it that the chief executive of Pharmac made such a serious error when he clearly stated, on 7 March to a breast cancer group, that it was a \u201Cmanagement and not a board decision\u201D\u2014a decision, which can only be described as radical, by Pharmac to fund, with $3.2 million of taxpayers\u2019 money, an offshore Finnish trial in which no New Zealand women may ever participate\u2014and why is it that this research was not flagged in its statement of intent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273a1cdb931e043e28dbd8bdede31e724\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know how many of these questions, Madam Speaker, you would like me to answer, but just going with the statement of intent, I say that it refers to Pharmac\u2019s statute. The statute of Pharmac expressly allows for research. How is it that this gentleman made what is called a serious mistake? I am not sure, but a few days later he found it out and corrected it. Is the research radical? Well, no, not if it is allowed for in statute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f99bcf9e-1ad4-4ed4-9a97-1cccb5b1e11a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258a3c18ad9f4458394c42ae3ea179ef4\u0022\u003EDr Jackie Blue\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it\u2019s radical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022615b6d6b154f4f5982d1bb7bca250994\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think it is radical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022188711dedb104522a89a6e0f101145d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When did Pharmac conduct such a trial; and on what basis is Pharmac doing its pricing calculation, when in respect of Roche and Herceptin, and sanofi-aventis and Docetaxel, Pharmac has not even negotiated a price on these two drugs; in short, on what basis is he constructing his costings, and why is the New Zealand taxpayer funding an international multicentre trial?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fa577f7f1eb444488c95d9f7c5ec2e9\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: We are participating, prospectively, in a trial; it is not yet clear to me whether it will go ahead. If it is to go ahead, it will have to be international to get the numbers. There are not enough people with that form of breast cancer in New Zealand for a trial to be carried out. As to the issue of costing, I say that it is fairly straightforward that if there is 9 weeks\u2019 treatment versus 52, the cost will be about 20 percent of the original cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba4c0f0f18c244039b2eefd97e84d0f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I want to table the list of 22 countries\u2014First World countries\u2014that have Herceptin available on the basis of 12 months\u2019 treatment, not some mythical 9-week treatment dreamt up by Pharmac.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228062ce67fca348ca94d33b06ef7e5d41\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Free Hours, Providers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef188be348d84d168db2cc5831a95da5\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Is he concerned by the Early Childhood Council\u2019s latest survey, which shows that only 23.9 percent of its centres will offer the policy of 20 free hours; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0be835e09c64c3cbb06817b6081c50b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0be835e09c64c3cbb06817b6081c50b\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E This survey, which represents the views of 300 providers out of a potential 2,600, told us that 23.9 percent of centres have decided to come to the scheme, as we speak today; that 46 percent are making up their mind; and the others feel that they will not. I spoke at the early childhood conference this weekend and talked to a wide range of providers, all of whom are very enthusiastic about the policy. So I remain optimistic that on 1 July we will have a very good muster. Of course, I remind the member that centres cannot actually enrol for the programme until May. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c229bac627684450bc532ccd4d100f0f\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister deliver access for all 3 and 4-year-old children to his 20 free hours policy when only 12 percent of Auckland centres and only 19 percent of Christchurch centres say they are going to opt in\u2014just 3 months before the whole policy goes live? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f94ea8025a441ec93ae01f4fac3dfb6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, I remain optimistic. But I do think one of the problems we have is that, I understand, the National Party is going to meetings at the moment saying it will run its own monitoring of the scheme in the future, and if it decides that centres do not comply with the rules the way National interprets them, it will sue. That might actually scare a few people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244522825b65c4cb9943b8f7514983883\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Does he regret his very first promise to New Zealand parents that 92,000 children will definitely get 20 hours free\u2014when, based on a minority of centres that say they are going to opt in, he has not got a hope in hell of delivering that level of access to those children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ee0d8a34714220a41d5ef2fd706544\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It is colourful language, but, as this member always misquotes everybody, I have to go back and say we have repeatedly said that up to 92,000 3 to 4-year-olds will be eligible for this policy. I have said to the member, I do not know how many times, it is a voluntary policy. People come into the policy if they want to, but up to 92,000 young people will be eligible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531b50d77c2e4d92a02ccc3d85667b9e\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister not admit that centres will continue to reject his 20 free hours policy unless he allows them to charge fees to cover the full cost of providing a basic but quality service of early childhood education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e2948e2dd9a46c288a98a2b2eedcc5e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Because that is wrong. Why does the member not admit that National would scrap the policy\u2014and let National be honest with people when its members are travelling round the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f640c3853224ebe8478620f16153283\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: If the funding for 20 free hours does not cover basic costs, how does the Minister suggest a centre make up the shortfall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3686d4ca892436ca1c020cdc287d36f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I will explain to the member for the 600th time that this cost was figured out by talking with centres right across the country. We have now got what we believe is the average cost of the regulated level of quality early childhood education. That is what we are paying for. If a centre decides that it wants to provide more than that, then it simply talks to the parents and says: \u201CYou may be pocketing $80 for the regulated level of early childhood education. We would like to provide you with more teachers. Would you like us to do that, and a charge can be established?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f992e5f7430e4a7a9716f8d7d362b98d\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: If by the very definition of average there is 50 percent under and 50 percent over, how can a centre pay the mortgage and teachers\u2019 salaries on optional charges and donations that might not get paid, when the centres clearly need certainty of income?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022730f49bc797642ac95049088ad94ddfd\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As has been explained numerous times, many centres charge for more teachers, hot lunches, and travels around the community, which means they have set fees considerably higher than the average across the country or the regulated level of early childhood education. If they wish to continue that, then it is fine. What they will do is talk to the parents and establish an optional charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c8a3c73f73f4a3fb2eef02ad3e5ca33\u0022\u003EMethyl Bromide\u2014Proximity to Schools\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022907d2125c9ca4e6b8e20ed8213543987\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Biosecurity: How many of the transitional facilities where methyl bromide fumigation took place last year are within 500 metres of schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u002257933eed5b7b449a9d225537ffcd6083\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257933eed5b7b449a9d225537ffcd6083\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry records the names and locations of transitional and port facilities where methyl bromide has been used in fumigation. In order to identify the proximity to schools of every one of the 6,119 transitional facilities where methyl bromide may have been required to be used in the last year, it would be necessary to physically map each transitional facility and then cross-reference its location to the nearest schools. It would take both considerable effort and cost to query 12 months\u2019 data. I would not expect Biosecurity New Zealand to undertake such an exhaustive and arbitrary task, because the health and safety of fumigation operations are governed by extensive regulations issued by the Environmental Risk Management Authority and enforced by the Occupational Safety and Health Service, and as well come under the Resource Management Act consents process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223db4df77b1264d4c962d6ab61c91c2a8\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that he has no idea how many methyl bromide fumigation facilities are near schools, and can he confirm that there are many methyl bromide fumigation facilities near schools such as Otahuhu School, Otahuhu College, King\u2019s College in Auckland, Kelvin Christian School, and other examples that I will table; and does the Government have concerns that children in those schools may be exposed to harmful concentrations of this highly toxic, odourless gas, especially when, despite all the regulations he referred to, there is no monitoring of methyl bromide concentrations even in residential areas and near schools; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1552ab4cabd467691729c43c72fe72c\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Decisions on permitted or non-permitted activities like methyl bromide use in urban and regional areas are made by the relevant local authority under the Resource Management Act. The Government is currently investigating different ways of monitoring gas discharge and exposure rates over time, and also the idea of using a recovery and destruction method for the gas. A person who intends to carry out fumigation with methyl bromide must notify every person who may be affected by the fumigation of the intention to carry out that fumigation. Those regulations are enforced by the Department of Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fabae91046944c489bb57235ef09f027\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House whether there are any negative side effects to our agricultural exports from not using methyl bromides; if so, what are they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d57a4e97841c491e968e0a57a431b777\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Our sawn timber exports to Australia, which are a significant element of our export wood industry, are required by the Australian authorities to be treated by methyl bromide. If we did not treat them with methyl bromide, we would not be able to export any timber at all. On the import side, of course, if we did not have treatment like methyl bromide for incursions in New Zealand, we would almost certainly have greater incursions of red fire ants, black widow spiders, and Asian tiger mosquitoes\u2014which could be arranged, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282ca733202f6479a8e862be58fd690c1\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that methyl bromide is a highly toxic and odourless gas and that it should not be permitted to be used for fumigation near schools and in residential areas; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4e6c5c1a15f499bbe46f7a64d56bec8\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly it is a toxic gas, both to animal habitats and, of course, to the ecosystem itself\u2014we acknowledge that. But the member has to understand that under the Ozone Layer Protection Act, which controls imports of ozone-depleting substances including methyl bromide, and in line with our commitments under the Montreal Protocol, we can use methyl bromide for quarantine and pre-shipment services. That is a permitted use of methyl bromide that can legitimately occur under that protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab77a1035b94bee85c68aaa44900261\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I have twice asked the Minister whether he believes that methyl bromide fumigation facilities should be permitted to be used near schools. I have asked that very simply. Could the Minister answer that question and not a number of other irrelevant issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c05d6dd9da486fb5e5798c5a4a24fb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, Ministers are not required to answer yes or no or to give the answers expected by members. They must address the question, and I think that question has been addressed at length.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022901c1289a4b739be6f3fd6d61f6be\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Can I take it from the Minister\u2019s answers that this Government is happy to turn a blind eye to the fact that methyl bromide fumigation is taking place near to schools, possibly endangering the health of pupils, and now that the technology to recapture methyl bromide has been proven to be practical and cost effective and is in use in Australia and other countries, why will this Government not require the recapturing of this highly toxic and ozone-depleting gas as a condition of its use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da7e67ec6b743de9ec1b8f809f9181f\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d1d980863ec4c15b1f7cd07ccb3fff2\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a map showing the location of four fumigation sites in close proximity to schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b63496612bf42da845cac9450375d10\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d77a14138074f699b78215d043273e1\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table some documents that show other Governments, such as those in Belgium and Australia, have passed regulations requiring the recapture of methyl bromide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248312a3a635f4f139b1e57319acff28c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002210f5a6025eb6406b9129ccd571322777\u0022\u003ECorrections, Department\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220965044fcaba4dbaba76f519237f7dba\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he have confidence in his department; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf6f1ef1071d401c8280141f22437625\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf6f1ef1071d401c8280141f22437625\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, but there is always room for improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2f8aa3fe972482890af96a395f44d82\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How can he have confidence in his department when someone as senior as the Wellington regional prisons manager, Dave East, who only 2 weeks ago was fronting to the media regarding allegations that four guards had allowed a convicted rapist to have a conjugal visit, has himself now been suspended for allegedly stymying investigations, bullying staff, and giving preferential treatment to his wife and three children as employees of the department?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d3328535dd42e28684719a6489fedd\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of a number of allegations that have been made. There is currently an investigation under way. That person is under investigation not for corruption but for other inappropriate issues and actions around the prison. I am not prepared to prejudge the outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf07e6877f134781929ef1b56ec6e2d0\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does it not, in fact, increase the public\u2019s confidence in the Department of Corrections when in the short space of about 4 weeks, an anti-corruption team having been launched that was given the task of rooting out corruption and finding areas of incompetence, we have seen 11 officers suspended and we now see a manager\u2014showing that no favour is being given to those of senior rank\u2014also suspended and facing charges; does that not give some confidence that the investigations in hand are producing results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022097f69f520104a39a56115bb3533dd2a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It is about time the National Party acknowledged that we will investigate, identify, follow through on, and prosecute anyone who does not abide by the law or protocol within the Department of Corrections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022806462f1efb04281bfa5a2fa8d0eecab\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his statement to the House that claims that corruption at Rimutaka Prison does not go on without the knowledge of management were \u201Cridiculous\u201D, when an ex-employee has described management\u2019s attempts to stifle dissent as \u201Cmafia-like\u201D, when one of those currently under scrutiny by the corruption investigation is a unit manager, and when a current guard says: \u201CIt hasn\u2019t stopped because of this. It\u2019s just gone underground. They haven\u2019t got the really big fish.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfdbcfc1bb774cfc9defd1863a95038e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept that for a moment, but Mr Patten is carrying out an independent investigation at Rimutaka Prison. He will identify any areas of inappropriate or illegal behaviour, and we will follow through and prosecute anyone, be they at senior management level or be they a prison officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022118a55fb736c4c63b9878da0f57ee7a0\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How could a second prisoner, Arthur Taylor, allegedly father a child from inside without help from prison staff, when he was able to pass a container to his wife, or should we not be surprised, as Taylor himself said last year that when he first arrived at Rimutaka Prison he was approached by guards offering their services, saying: \u201CDo you need anything, Arthur?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b7c034345734fa5aa12571ff69406f5\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am not about to give that member a lesson in biology. I would suggest that he take on board the fact that Arthur Taylor is a lying, scheming, violent, manipulative person who has been convicted of many, many crimes, and if that is where that member gets his advice from, I suggest he change his sources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d159b926c34a239f11632d34584ae7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Is he at all concerned\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b30cc84fe5c04d7880a357311311d7c7\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s certainly pretty enterprising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215719d07370d4501b41640b530a7ac0b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Goff might want to hear this. Is he at all concerned that it appears that a high proportion of key staff in the department are in relationships with other staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225295a4c2069840dcadbc07d69bf7c608\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not consider that the few staff in the department who have relationships with other staff is a high proportion. I am aware of the situation, and senior management have been informed. There is not a large number, and wherever it has occurred the issue has been made quite public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251ea0af85c274973bde0b94727fdc40c\u0022\u003EHorowhenua District Council\u2014Rubbish Transfer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022496d54475d1749b6a9e79ff4120afc99\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Will he take any action to ensure consultation with Ng\u0101ti Pareraukawa and the Mua\u016Bpoko Tribal Authority regarding the decision of the Horowhenua District Council to allow the transfer of rubbish from the Kapiti district to the H\u014Dkio Beach landfill, in light of the Crown\u2019s responsibility to maintain and improve opportunities for M\u0101ori to contribute to local government decision-making processes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00226e2ad3bf6d6647adb7d3026e3bcb58a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e2ad3bf6d6647adb7d3026e3bcb58a8\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Under the Local Government Act 2002, decisions relating to a council\u2019s waste management plan are for a council to make within the requirements of that Act. Decisions relating to specific resource consents, such as those at the H\u014Dkio Beach landfill, fall under the Resource Management Act 1991. Accordingly, any questions relating to the council\u2019s decision-making process under that Act are the province of the Minister for the Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2a4576342a416ead456aeeaec0143a\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: What consultation has there been with the Mua\u016Bpoko Tribal Authority about the decision to open up the H\u014Dkio Beach site as a repository for nationwide rubbish\u2014a site that has sacred significance for the people in terms of its close proximity to traditional burial grounds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022115dcb39c80249cd8450dc48629a7184\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated in the opening answer, the decisions, and the executing of those decisions, under the Local Government Act are the province of the local council in question. I am advised that the long-term council community plan for that district provided for out-of-district waste to be dumped at the H\u014Dkio Beach landfill. Of course, that plan was, as is required by law, a matter of consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239565924c8304e4fa64113ec82c02552\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: In light of section 4 of the Local Government Act 2002, which places a very clear requirement on local authorities to consult with mana whenua, what consultation has been undertaken with Ng\u0101ti Pareraukawa, given that the landfill is literally on the backyard of their tribal marae at Ng\u0101tokowaru?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744de789c13e4014848b7c250e4ccec3\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I have answered twice already, this is a decision and responsibility, under the very Act that the member is referring to, of the appropriate territorial local authority. It is, of course, potentially judicially reviewable under that Act, should the conditions for such a review be met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263734721984a43d985e03e7d06103dea\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that building a landfill on a highly porous base such as sand, then relying on a plastic liner to catch all of the leachate, on the assumption that it will never fail, which is what is happening at H\u014Dkio, is a stupid and unnecessary risk that leaves the council exposed to future liability, and directly cuts across the ability of Ng\u0101ti Pareraukawa and the Mua\u016Bpoko Tribal Authority to exercise their kaitiakitanga, or, indeed, of the P\u0101keh\u0101 community to care for their waterways?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210492e4d6a8145f7abe647fdc968f9c8\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I have tried to explain\u2014three times now\u2014this decision is properly made by the territorial local authority, which among its staffing expertise should have drainage and disposal engineering expertise. That is not expertise that I would ever claim to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ccf61925134c0f9441a8d9cad89fa0\u0022\u003ETariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that Ng\u0101ti Pareraukawa, as a party directly affected by this activity, have raised their concerns over subsequent decades about the longstanding pollution caused by the sewage discharge, which has compromised the health of their streams, affected their marine environment, and impacted adversely on the health of their tuna; and what initiatives will he take as a result of this, to ensure that waste disposal policies do not at the same time create environmental hazards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957378c634f94c66b8be3dad2216f872\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I also indicated in the substantive answer, the aspect that the member now strays on to deals more with the resource consent, which is a matter for the Resource Management Act, which is the province of the Minister for the Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224083d3cfb7184a2299f259c18e275162\u0022\u003EFloods\u2014Government Response, Northland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2cb93414db4cc6816fc1ee1f56d070\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Civil Defence: What response, if any, has the Government made to last week\u2019s flood damage in Northland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00226c46ab304e7840aebeb5f0cf01173042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c46ab304e7840aebeb5f0cf01173042\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Civil Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, the three Northland councils did not declare a civil defence emergency, because they had good plans and excellent systems, and they were on top of their job. The local civil defence emergency management staff should feel well satisfied with the management of this event. In such cases it is the Ministry of Civil Defence and Emergency Management that undertakes a monitoring role, and, when asked, it will provide whatever support is necessary to respond. When my colleague Dover Samuels and I surveyed the damage in Northland on Saturday, we advised that the Government would pay in full any council costs associated with the housing and moving of people displaced by the flood. As well as this, the Ministry of Social Development offices were open on Saturday and Sunday, and an 0800 Government helpline number was activated. Further, the Government will assist substantially with any road repairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af446c4bb634655a0628db2a2b0e1fb\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his promise on Radio New Zealand National yesterday that \u201CTransit will pay the full cost of restoring each road in full\u2014no question about that.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289821253b4194ddbb04cf854abade7e3\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not make such a blunt statement. What I did say was that the Government will fund substantially the costs associated with it. In the far north the Government is committed to paying 56 percent of the total cost, and 52 percent for Whangarei. That is over half of the costs. The mayors have already asked me whether we would contribute more than that, and I have said that once the exact costs are known, then they can put their requests to the Government and they will be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d84cea606d7434e87242e68cbf3f33e\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Minister done in his role as Minister of Civil Defence to ensure that people are better prepared to cope with civil defence emergencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace641cf389b46bbb55e224c638cd2c1\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Last year I implemented two public education programmes\u2014one in schools, called What\u2019s the Plan Stan?, and the other was a broader public education programme called Get Ready Get Thru. Initial results show that three-quarters of New Zealanders have done something to better prepare for the event of a disaster. These initial results are heartening, but we have a long way to go. But people are better prepared, and better preparation leads to fewer losses. This directly contradicts Mr Carter\u2019s comments in June last year, when he said that to spend money on a public education programme was \u201Ca farce and a disgrace\u201D. I doubt that the people of Northland would agree with that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b651af54a04057b719b7d938656c12\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his second promise to the people of Northland on Radio New Zealand National yesterday, when he stated: \u201CAnything to do with public safety we will pay for in full.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c650c1e16a8b4767a92b7ce4ba191a98\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do stand by that promise. If any person was required to be evacuated by whatever means and accommodated, the Crown will reimburse in full the costs to that council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc326a4a78342bb90dc1dae2fb45def\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister heard from Minister Jim Anderton since he told Mr Anderton over the weekend that his staff needed to look at the issue of suspensory loans in the Hikurangi area again; if so, what was the reply from Mr Anderton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022668d183b4f37412b973e6d92fbcd8777\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member again misquotes me. I never mentioned suspensory loans. What I did say was that I would take the matter up with the Minister. I have done so, and his staff are investigating the matter further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258981df9080d498eac5bbbf9c461000c\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his fourth and final promise on Radio New Zealand National yesterday that \u201CThe Government will make a substantial contribution to this flood without a question of a doubt.\u201D, and does he absolutely guarantee a refund of \u201Call that the council spent on housing and relocating people temporarily\u201D, on \u201Cpublic safety\u201D, and on repairing all roads, not just Transit roads, in Northland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63169713d884740916e5e07c531bceb\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat my answer further. Where people were dislocated by the floods, and the council incurred costs, then we will pay the full cost of that. There is no question about that. In terms of repairing the roads, I have already said the Government is committed, and in the case of the far north we will pay 56 percent of the cost, and in the case of Whangarei 52 percent of the cost. That is a substantial contribution. The councils have asked whether we would look at further increasing the taxpayer subsidy, and I have said we would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218e98521a784fcab9b13dd8664ac85a\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the transcript of all the promises on Radio New Zealand National yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226adfe35c97d0433792d37a61c896c659\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002230510c81e2bd4815b2c52ebbe41a31b6\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Assessment at Primary Level\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233aa57e857154993a6d0e61488ec097d\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What reports, if any, has he received regarding changes to assessment policies in primary schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00223ed60acabb074351b6fdc11fe885a8f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ed60acabb074351b6fdc11fe885a8f2\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I have seen reports stating that 90 percent of primary schools are making effective use of assessment data in core areas such as English and maths to improve student achievement. Secondly, I have also seen reports stating that New Zealand ranks in the second group of nations in the world in core areas such as reading and maths. Thirdly, I have seen reports from the National Party, which wants to undermine that success by introducing age-related standardised tests for 5-year-olds and league tables. It is no wonder a typical response is that of Judy Hanna, President of the New Zealand Principals Federation, who said: \u201CThis is nothing more than a cynical attack on a world class education system.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f186488c8554a228029d94dad2f8008\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government\u2019s policy on assessment in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235fd1c6f54734d51ac0d1d6e577bf2cb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour-led Government is supporting the development of what is called assessment for learning in New Zealand schools. This is where teachers actively make use of assessment to find out what a student is doing, and then apply that knowledge to improve the student\u2019s performance. We have supported that policy with very substantial investment in teacher professional development and in such world-class assessment tools as asTTle. The approach ensures that teachers, parents, and students understand where students went wrong and how to improve their performance. Our focus is on achieving the full potential of a student rather than on centrally imposed minimum standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddb5b6b7034d46e7855cf1f28ebdab2b\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister been informed of the radio interview with a principal this morning where the interviewee claimed she had, 1 week ago, introduced John Key to the idea of benchmarking as used in her school, and what does he think of educational policy developed on the basis of the last school visited by a party\u2019s leader?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223145ddd921924e4caa6ed4c2ec89c67d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the interview revealed what we all know, which is that the only person who knows anything about education on the National side is Bill English, the co-leader. It tells us a great deal about why John Key has approached these issues from the point of view of such old ideas as those he has proposed. But I tell the member that if Mr Key goes to almost any of the schools in this country, I will be very proud of what they will tell him about how the education system works. Glen Taylor School is an excellent example of such a school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288ff8559d5284bc08df072ac099952a9\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: When John Key has clearly said that National is not introducing standardised testing or league tables and wants a diagnostic assessment of learning in order to inform classroom teaching, does the Minister think that he should be the first one to have his reading ability assessed\u2014because, frankly, he has not read the speech or understood it\u2014and what is he going to do to stop one in five kids from leaving school without being able to read and write?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238ceefc61c544df1bb5ae7df19323ffb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I would just say this to the member. I was at a conference yesterday of 1,600 principals from around the world. Every single one of them thinks John Key wants national standardised testing. The National Party, I am afraid, has a lot of work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d10e778582ec459aa6fa044a885801b5\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a84e5312dfeb487e8b67f619460f2e1f\u0022\u003ECommission of Inquiry into Police Conduct\u2014Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb80a2a948664a5cb35eeec98b65cef6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb80a2a948664a5cb35eeec98b65cef6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received letters from Keith Locke and Ron Mark seeking to debate under Standing Order 380 the release of the commission of inquiry report into police conduct. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility, and I consider that it does justify the immediate attention of the House. I therefore accept the applications. The first application was received from Keith Locke and I therefore call on Mr Locke to move that the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022a592c3f1cb564ba4bf922c8ed9e3a87e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a592c3f1cb564ba4bf922c8ed9e3a87e\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance. The Green Party will be splitting its time. I will speak for the first half and my colleague Sue Kedgley will speak for the second half. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the Greens, I would like to congratulate Dame Margaret Bazley on a thorough report. She has exposed shocking behaviour in the New Zealand Police Force\u2014a pattern of sexual offending against women by so many police officers that we as a Parliament have to take it extremely seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn the complaints of sexual assault that Dame Margaret looked at, 141 were regarded as containing sufficient evidence on which to lay charges or undertake some sort of disciplinary action. She does report significant improvement since the worst days of the 1980s and 1990s, but that may be due, mainly, to changes in society, which has meant that sexual violence against women is much less tolerated and more often reported, and this modern reality is reflected more within the police force. The police still have a huge way to go to reassure us that complaints by women will be properly heard and to make it more acceptable for the police to tell on their mates when they cross the line into unacceptable behaviour or criminality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E At bottom is the ongoing problem of what Dame Margaret Bazley calls \u201Cthe wall of silence\u201D from colleagues when complaints are made. The starting point of the problem, as outlined in this morning\u2019s Press in a quote from Victoria University\u2019s Michael Rowe, is that everywhere in the world police officers have extraordinary loyalty to one another. This loyalty is forged on the dangerous frontline, where officers count on their mates to back them up and there is strong pressure to overlook the misbehaviour of a fellow officer on whom they might be counting to protect them the next day or the next week. That is precisely why police systems for detecting wrongdoing in their ranks have to be much stronger than other Government agencies, not much weaker, which is the picture that we get from Dame Margaret\u2019s report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe police must start right now to create a culture of openness, and, as Margaret Bazley points out, an effective whistleblower mechanism is an essential component of this. I think that the best judge of whether the police are really changing their culture for the better is their demonstrating in their future practice that police whistleblowers will be protected and their careers not stymied. Whistleblowers have to be protected by the police hierarchy and by a much better Police Complaints Authority than we have now\u2014one that is fully independent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe police can no longer be in charge of investigating complaints against themselves. The new Independent Police Complaints Authority, now proposed in a bill before Parliament, is an improvement, but it is not sufficient to deal with the problems we see in this report. It is not sufficient just to increase the number of appointees on the authority from one to three. Any new investigative body has to be given much greater resources, with its own staff sufficient to carry out all of its investigations without relying in any way on police investigators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn fact, the Greens are in favour of a new body that combines the functions of the Police Complaints Authority and a new prison inspectorate, with considerable staffing in the joint agency and a wide range of expertise so that it can be effective and completely independent from either the police or prison management. We use the term \u201Cinspectorate\u201D deliberately, because any new body should not only deal with individual complaints against, for example, the police, but also be able to initiate its own investigations when it sees any signs of systemic problems of the sort Dame Margaret has just investigated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere is still too much of a cover-up culture in the police, as we have seen over the past couple of weeks. Last week the police tried to cover-up their exclusion of a press gallery journalist from a photo opportunity with the Chinese Vice-Premier. The police blamed the journalist, and they may have got away with that cover-up but for the fact that, perhaps unbeknown to them, their actions were being videoed. The previous week an unarmed man in West Auckland was \u201CTasered\u201D while on the ground surrounded by four police officers. This again was action clearly beyond the police mandate in the taser trial, which was that tasers should be used only when there is a threat of injury, which there clearly was not in this case. Again, the police might have got away with their cover-up but for the fact that an onlooker filmed the event on his cellphone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThis police culture of \u201Cback your mates even when they are wrong\u201D lies at the heart of the problem of the sex offending we are dealing with today. All kinds of police knew what was going on in Rotorua at the time and either said nothing or tried to cover it up. Inspector John Dewar, who handled the original complaint of Louise Nicholas in Rotorua, is now belatedly, and after huge publicity, being charged with attempting to obstruct or defeat the course of justice. In the Nicholas case, the Police Complaints Authority relied on the police to do the investigation, which was like putting foxes in charge of the chicken coop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EDame Margaret Bazley has exposed a very rickety and deficient system of dealing with complaints today. She had to put forward very basic organisational changes, like the national commissioner\u2019s office being informed of serious complaints against the police, which has not been the case up until now, and proper information being given to complainants about the progress of their complaints, which also has not been the situation up until now\u2014either within the police or with the Police Complaints Authority. She also exposed a whole lot of other things, like the fact that some people, when they are subject to a serious allegation, simply slide out by resigning from the force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think we have to realise that with the police force we are dealing with a very powerful institution, particularly when it is acting collectively. Complainants can feel very vulnerable, so every opportunity and avenue has to be open for them to complain. At this point I will hand over to my colleague Sue Kedgley, who will explain the Green position further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd5d9620cd0458fb1edca5c4c1926e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd5d9620cd0458fb1edca5c4c1926e4\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is particularly pleased that the Commissioner of Police has, at long last, offered an unequivocal public apology and thereby made an implicit admission of guilt by the police for what this inquiry has uncovered and the harm that has been done to so many New Zealand women over the past few decades, in particular to women who have been abused by police officers, to women whose complaints were not taken seriously by police officers, and to women who were turned away from police stations and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI believe that both the apology by the commissioner and this report are important steps in helping to close this tragic saga, but, as my colleague Keith Locke has said, much more needs to be done. We need processes to reassure New Zealand women that the culture of violence and abuse that flourished in certain parts of the force, and which has been documented in this report, will no longer be tolerated, and that any complaints of sexual abuse made to the police in the future will be treated with the utmost seriousness, with compassion, and with respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E The Minister of Police made a public statement today that the public can have confidence in the calibre of police investigations into allegations of sexual assault made by police officers and that women will feel reassured and safe about reporting sexual violence offences. Sadly, I am afraid that this is not the case. The truth is that most women who have been raped do not take their cases to the police because they believe they will be damaged and re-victimised all over again by the investigation and by the court processes. I believe that this report and the recent court cases, sadly, will have fuelled and reinforced their fears, not assuaged them. Therefore, the confidence of New Zealand women in reporting sexual offences will have to be won over time. This report today is the first step in what will be a long healing process. It will be a long process of turning around the police culture and regaining trust\u2014in particular, the trust of New Zealand women\u2014in the police force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe report has confirmed what so many women have been saying anecdotally over recent years. Much of what women have said has been dismissed, but this report gives proof that there was a culture of scepticism in the police\u2019s dealing with complainants of sexual abuse; that these stereotyped attitudes may have prejudiced the police\u2019s approach to complaints; that there was evidence that police officers turned a blind eye to sexual activity of an inappropriate nature carried out by police officers; and, of course, that there was a wall of silence from police officers in order to protect their colleagues. These are incredibly serious findings that really amount to an admission of a cover-up in certain parts of the police force, which obviously caused huge harm to every single woman whose case was denied or covered up in this way in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI guess that it is particularly concerning, when we look at the release of the report and its findings today, and consider the very long history of this sort of culture in the police force. Eleven years ago, in 1996, a study noted that there was \u201Can organisational culture in the police force that was dominated by male values\u201D. It spoke of sexual harassment, discrimination, \u201Ctolerance of forms of male behaviour that marginalised the contribution of women\u201D, and of degrading pastimes such as night-shift sexist videos. The question we must ask is what has happened as a result of that very revealing report. How much has changed since then, and what has been done to change the male work-culture of the police? These matters are what we need to be reassured about if women are to have their faith, their confidence, and their trust in the police restored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe report also confirms that there was a sexual assault investigation policy, which governed how police should handle sexual assaults and investigations into them. But it also states that as recently as March of 2005, experienced detectives were arriving at the Royal New Zealand Police College for courses and admitting that they did not even know that such a policy existed, let alone what it specified. They said that the lack of implementation of this particular policy was also reflected in the fact that no attempt was made to appoint a national sexual assault coordinator until 2005\u20148 years after the policy\u2019s introduction. Also, the policy was supposed to be mandatory. It stated that it was a mandatory policy, yet the way that it was implemented meant that compliance with it remained an aspirational target. So all of these events of the past suggest that much needs to happen for New Zealand women to be reassured that there has been a profound and real change in the police culture, and for them to feel they can have the confidence and trust in the police that is essential for the police force to be effective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWhat is also of concern is that some of the women who have bared their souls to the commission have said that they feel they have been left hanging, and that they feel they have been hung out to dry by the inquiry. Some of them, I think, were expecting that the process would bring them personal resolution, reconciliation, and closure. They say that they feel they have been treated with an attitude of: \u201C \u2018thank you very much for your story, you are no longer required, goodbye.\u2019 \u201D I think that this is a real concern. No doubt, those women will be pleased with the unequivocal and generic apology made by the commissioner, and they will be pleased by this report. But I think that more needs to be done so that the women who have bared their souls feel that they are able to have personal closure of their own agony over secrets that many of them have nurtured for many decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI am astonished that there was no code of conduct for police officers. It is hard to believe. We are delighted that, finally, there will be a code of conduct for police officers. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00227f64745c872f4b75be1880a8d4f38b13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f64745c872f4b75be1880a8d4f38b13\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E The Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct was established in February 2004 to carry out a full, independent investigation into the way in which the New Zealand Police had dealt with allegations of sexual assault made against members of the police and associates of the police. This followed the publication of allegations made independently by two women, Ms Louise Nicholas and Ms Judith Garrett, suggesting that police officers might have deliberately undermined or mishandled investigations into complaints of sexual assault that had been made against other officers. A set of terms of reference was established for the inquiry, and those terms of reference were subsequently altered somewhat in May 2005 as a result of the commission\u2019s concern that police inquiries currently before the courts could be jeopardised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E The commission of inquiry report is a very important document, and I thank those members who have spoken on it so far. I thank Dame Margaret Bazley for her comprehensive report. I am impressed with the scope, depth, and thoroughness of the investigation, and with the common sense she has taken in her recommendations. I also acknowledge the Prime Minister\u2019s role in setting up the inquiry to ensure that allegations made over a period of years were examined and brought out into the open. It is clear that this inquiry has acted as a catalyst for change in the New Zealand Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EFurther, I acknowledge the courage and persistence of the women who brought forward the complaints that resulted in this inquiry. I also express in this House my disgust at the actions of individual police officers who indulged in disgraceful conduct at any time during the 25-year period covered by the inquiry. They let down their colleagues, the women of New Zealand, and New Zealanders in general. I sincerely regret what has happened to individuals, and I feel confident that Ministers who have held this portfolio previously would feel the same as I do today. I am pleased to see that the Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad, has, in a statement, unreservedly and unequivocally apologised to the victims of the actions of a few officers who have let down the police and let down the public. As the member Sue Kedgley said, that is a very important part of the healing process in going forward from here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EAs Minister of Police, I will do all I can to try to make sure that this sort of unacceptable behaviour does not happen again, but I acknowledge that in any profession there will always be individuals who transgress. The important consideration is to minimise the risk of such individuals emerging within the New Zealand Police and to identify and remove such individuals from the service as expeditiously as possible. They were not wanted then, and they are not wanted now\u2014if any of them remain. I know that that is exactly how the Commissioner of Police feels, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ETurning to the report, I can do no better than to quote the words of Dame Margaret. She said that the report has presented \u201Ca series of \u2018snapshots\u2019 of police standards and practices over a 25 year period. Much of the Commission\u2019s focus was necessarily on historical matters.\u201D The snapshots, especially those from the earlier years, are sometimes ugly. Her report also notes, however, that there have been \u201Csignificant improvements in standards and practices over that period.\u201D She also points out: \u201CNew Zealand is fortunate to have a police force in which this kind of misconduct is a relatively rare occurrence. However, the risk that misconduct, particularly sexual misconduct, poses to public confidence in the police is a significant one.\u201D That is why this report is being taken so seriously by this Government and by members in the House, who, I know, will participate in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDame Margaret has said many things in her report, but I want to respond to Sue Kedgley\u2019s comments in relation to two of those things. Sue Kedgley quoted me as saying that the public should have confidence in the calibre of the police. In fact, I was quoting the words of Dame Margaret Bazley in her report. In her report, that is exactly what she says. She said: \u201Cit is my view that, at the present time, the public can have confidence in the calibre of police investigations into allegations of sexual assault by police officers and police associates. Although the evidence the Commission has seen highlights some failings in the past, the policies and procedures surrounding how such allegations are investigated have improved markedly over the past 25 years. Nevertheless, further improvements are needed, in particular to address the proliferation of policies and procedures \u2026\u201D. She makes the point that although there has been improvement and women can have confidence in the calibre of those investigations, there is still further improvement to be made. She also said\u2014and I think it is important to answer Sue Kedgley on this\u2014that \u201Cthere was no evidence of any concerted attempt across the organisation as a whole to cover up unacceptable behaviour.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ESo what I believe we have here are individual police officers who have indulged in disgusting behaviour and who have attempted to keep that behaviour from fellow officers. But it is important to point out that Dame Margaret does not believe that there was a culture of cover-up within the New Zealand Police then, or that there is now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIt is important to look at the recommendations of the report itself. The report, as members know, makes 60 recommendations. Forty-eight of them apply to the New Zealand Police; 12 of them apply to the Police Complaints Authority. I am really encouraged that the police have already begun acting across a range of these complex issues. I made the point that I believe that the commission of inquiry itself has been a catalyst; but that would be to say that nothing happened from the 1980s right through to the time of the inquiry. In fact, many, many things have happened. We could look back at the reporting of sexual harassment, for example. The report points out that a lot of work was done in the early to mid-1990s to develop policy around sexual harassment. That developed over time and is just one example of things that have changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI agree with the member Sue Kedgley that society has also changed over those 25 years. Attitudes that were held by New Zealanders 25 years ago would not be acceptable to many people in our society today. Margaret Bazley points out in the report that if we take an issue like the use of alcohol within the police, when there was a culture of heavy drinking and there were police bars, we see that, over time, that culture has changed. Today we do not build bars in police stations. And let us look at society as a whole. Attitudes towards alcohol have changed. I came into this House in 1984 when there were many, many bars in Parliament. In 1984 the drinking culture in this place was different. Today Parliament has one bar, which is shared by all, including members, the media, and staff. So there has been a change in culture, and I welcome that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EOf the 48 recommendations that Dame Margaret Bazley has made, four have been completed. I have for members, if they have not already received it, a list, put out by the New Zealand Police, of all the recommendations, showing what action has been taken, what action will be taken, and a date of completion for those recommendations. I know that my colleague Tariana Turia will recognise that format; it is the same one we used after the inquiry into the under-reporting of cervical smear abnormalities in Gisborne. The document sets out the recommendations and gives the public some clear indication as to what action will be taken and when. Four of the recommendations have already been completed, two are partially completed, 31 are under way, eight are yet to be done, and three will be ongoing matters. Some of these recommendations must always be ongoing matters, such as looking at the health of an organisation and at its practices. One has constantly to be looking at that. One cannot say: \u201CThat is finished; we will never look at it again.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI will outline in my comments today what I think are five or six really important recommendations that require urgent attention. The first one relates to the code of conduct. It is true that the New Zealand Police has never had a code of conduct. It is not part of the New Zealand Police. Obviously, officers swear an oath, but they do not have a code of conduct. A code of conduct has been drawn up. It was agreed with the Police Association during its industrial relations negotiations last year. That code of conduct will be put in place this year, 2007, and today the Commissioner of Police released the draft for everybody to see. It has gone out for consultation and it is available for members to see. I believe that it is a very important step forward, because the code deals with many of the issues that came up in this report. I think it has to be the basis of the industrial relations strategy, going forward, for the New Zealand Police. I also believe that the drawing up of new police regulations, which revoke the disciplinary tribunal system and implement the best-practice State sector disciplinary system\u2014based on a code of conduct, and in keeping with the principles of fairness and natural justice as part of employment relationships\u2014must be implemented as soon as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI believe that we can implement those regulations this year. There needs to be the implementation of an early warning system to identify officers at risk of inappropriate behaviour. Although there is a regional ability to alert commanding officers of inappropriate behaviour, what is being sought is to bring that information into a central database. I see that very much\u2014and I am sure that my colleague Georgina te Heuheu will relate to this\u2014as being like the Medical Council of New Zealand, in that when there are complaints against a professional, those complaints are reported in and come up as a red flag against the actions of that officer. So the reports are taken into a central database, all the data is collected, and a warning is given as to whether there is a persistent problem. Of course there will be officers who have complaints against them; that is the nature of policing, as we know. But when we can identify that an officer is displaying inappropriate behaviour, we will get the red light\u2014the alert\u2014early. I have also already asked the State Services Commissioner to carry out an annual health audit of the organisation, of police culture, and that will be asked for by the Commissioner of Police. Actually, he intends to ask for it. I checked with the State Services Commissioner as to whether he can do that, and the commissioner believes he can. I think that that is a very important recommendation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI have one other matter, because I know I am running out of time. I think it is important that the recommendations in this report are not just implemented but also audited, to see whether they are implemented over the period of time. It is recommended in the report that there be a 10-year audit by the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General in order to make sure that every one of the recommendations is implemented. I hope it will be done in less than 10 years, but the commission of inquiry suggests a time of 10 years for that audit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EOne other step has been decided on by the New Zealand Police\u2014and Tariana Turia will recognise this, as well. It is that the police intend, on a quarterly basis, to update a public website of those recommendations, stating what has been implemented and what progress has been made. That is exactly what we did with the commission of inquiry into the under-reporting of cervical screening abnormalities in Gisborne. That means that the public can, at any time, access that website and, on a quarterly basis, know what progress has been made towards the implementation of those recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E I believe that the public of New Zealand and the New Zealand Police will welcome this report today, because it has been a long time in coming. There is no doubt that the police in New Zealand have felt the weight of these inquiries and court cases. I believe that the police in New Zealand want to move from this position to a position that is positive, and to show their faces to the people of New Zealand. There can be no tolerance for the sorts of examples identified by Dame Margaret. It was disgraceful conduct by police officers and associates over a period of 25 years, involving exploitation of vulnerable people, particularly women. It cannot be acceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe have to move forward from here, and I welcome the positive nature in which this report has been received. This is a serious debate; it is not one that puts glory on anybody in this House or outside it, in terms of the actions of a number of individuals. We have to resolve this issue, move on, and ensure that the confidence the public has in the New Zealand Police continues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebea55ae067847e5b22e9098934da5fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebea55ae067847e5b22e9098934da5fb\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party in this snap debate. Let us not underestimate how much of a thunderbolt this particular report is. It has ultimately resulted in the police being put on notice for a period of 10 years by the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General. It has resulted in the police now being subject to annual reports from the State Services Commission investigating the culture of policing in New Zealand. This is a significant and far-reaching report. Thank goodness for public servants like Dame Margaret Bazley and Kevin Brady, who are prepared in the name of the public good to make the tough calls, and to state without fear or favour the facts as they actually exist. One would hope that those types of approaches could be taken to other departments and ministries over the course of the next wee while. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAs the Minister has said, this report is extremely important, particularly for the women of New Zealand, and particularly for those women who originally made complaints about police conduct in the 1980s. But the women of New Zealand must have no fear, at any time or at any place in New Zealand, when they approach the New Zealand Police over an issue that has concerned them. The Police is an institution\u2014unlike, frankly, some other Government departments or ministries\u2014that the public must have 100 percent confidence in, at all times. This report is a blow, frankly, for the Police, and I will talk about that in some detail shortly. But it is now up to this Government, and to subsequent Governments, to make sure that that confidence in the police is restored, and that the public are able to trust that when they make a complaint, it is dealt with in a professional way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EDame Margaret did find evidence of disgraceful conduct, and she found that 141 of those complaints contained enough evidence for criminal or disciplinary charges. Dame Margaret also said that there were incidents of officers attempting to protect alleged perpetrators\u2014which is unforgivable. As the Minister said, Dame Margaret has made 60 recommendations, and although I acknowledge that the Commissioner of Police today has unreservedly and unequivocally apologised to victims for the actions of those officers who let the police and the public down\u2014which should be acknowledged, and he should be congratulated on that\u2014he went on in his statement to make the most curious remark: \u201C \u2018However, following close and thorough scrutiny of the way we go about our business, the report does not point to systemic failings with Police policy, procedure, standards, training or behaviour.\u2019 \u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI am afraid that Dame Margaret Bazley found the opposite, when she stated: \u201CIn my view police management lacks the policies, procedures, and practices necessary for effectively dealing with such misconduct, and for removing the officers concerned.\u201D She went on in her report to make this statement: \u201CThe good work done by many investigating officers, particularly in the past 15 years, has been placed in jeopardy by systemic flaws that need attention from both police management and Government legislators.\u201D Yet the commissioner undid what I am sure was a genuine apology to the New Zealand public by stating further down in his press release that the report did not point to systemic failings with police policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWell, I tell the commissioner that it did. The report did point to systemic failures, particularly relating to matters surrounding policy, procedures, and standards. In fact, Dame Margaret is particularly concerned about this issue, because she went on to say, tellingly, in her statement this morning\u2014something the Minister did not mention when she related the fact that the Government will now put in place a 10-yearly audit of the Police, plus an annual culture check by the State Services Commission\u2014\u201C\u2026 I am concerned that the police impetus for change may not be sustained once the commission is discharged.\u201D In other words, it was not the Government\u2019s idea to put in place the State Services Commission\u2019s annual culture review, or the Audit Office\u2019s 10-year watchdog role. Dame Margaret says in her comments that she is \u201Cconcerned that the police impetus for change may not be sustained once the commission is discharged.\u201D We need to take this matter seriously, because Dame Margaret is a fearless public servant, and in this House we do her no good unless we honestly repeat her statements as they are written down. The report makes it clear that there are long-term concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe are looking forward to hearing from the Minister of Justice on the Police Complaints Authority matter, because Justice Lowell Goddard, who is, in National\u2019s view, a fine appointment to the job of Police Complaints Authority\u2014in fact, she is the Authority\u2014has started the process of strengthening the independence of that office. National waits with interest to see how that will be reinforced by the Government. She is, in our view, doing a good job on that front. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis report states that the culture that existed in the Police was unacceptable to the public and those who wish to make complaints to the police from time to time, but it goes on to state, in Dame Margaret\u2019s straightforward way, that she does not trust these matters to be implemented without continuing audit and review processes. That should concern those members of the police who believed a substantial document that sets out all the positive things the commentary said about the New Zealand Police, which was released this morning. That was very quickly put up on the Police website today. It is titled \u201CPositive commentary about NZ Police and the Commission of Inquiry report\u201D, and lists various quotes that say positive things about the police\u2014which is to be encouraged. But it would have been nice if Dame Margaret had been able to say that, upon the findings of her inquiry, she had an absolute gut feeling and total confidence that no further audit or follow-up would be needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784c441fb15c4eeb81404d476e029d87\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: She didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274c8c6481ebf4ab7a2cd7dae1dca97db\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: She did not say that. It was odd and concerning to National that the Commissioner of Police, after his apology\u2014which was well intentioned and well meant, I am sure\u2014actually said that Dame Margaret did not find systemic failure, whereas Dame Margaret herself makes it absolutely crystal clear, on at least two occasions in her commentary and media release, that she did find systemic failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ENow begins the job of rebuilding\u2014not only for this Government, but, no doubt, for the next Government as well. We welcome that opportunity to restore the public\u2019s confidence in the police to the level that it should be\u2014100 percent. But this thunderbolt from Dame Margaret today will make all of us realise this is a big job. This is a huge job. Let us not underestimate it and think that one snap debate today is the end of the matter politically, because it is not. The audit function and review will continue and will be monitored by National, both in Opposition and in Government, because the people, and, in particular, the women of New Zealand deserve better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1b27c66161b46d68e8f58b2be81007a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1b27c66161b46d68e8f58b2be81007a\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to contribute to this debate on behalf of New Zealand First, and I want to start by reading these words to the House:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u201CThe New Zealand public have a \u2018holier than thou\u2019 attitude to Australia when it comes to policing, and while there may have been some justification for this in the past, it is certainly not the case now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAt least the Australians have ordered commissions to look into their various police services. Some of them can now move on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has steadfastly refused to do so, apart from the Compton inquiry earlier this century when a Police Commissioner was using police constables to work for him personally. Instead, they have just talked about it: \u2018Isn\u2019t it awful, isn\u2019t that dreadful, isn\u2019t this wicked \u2026\u2019 That seems to be the way of New Zealanders and their media. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDoes the whole common structure need to be reviewed? Many experts would say at least one tier of that structure should be removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EPolice I have spoken to believe that a massive restructuring of the New Zealand Police Service is long overdue, with the main reform aim being to have less police bureaucracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand, senior police officers are not used to public scrutiny and, in fact, resent it. To be fair to them, however, neither are politicians, the judiciary, the legal profession or public servants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAs the New Zealand police have made an \u2018art form\u2019 out of writing off complaints over the years the Police Complaints Authority is a toothless tiger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is hoped this book will cause the public to think more about the corruption and coverups in our society and then, hopefully, do something about it when they encounter it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESurely, it\u2019s time for some professionalism at the top? Not just in the police, but across the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhile this book is often critical, it does offer some solutions based on twenty years\u2019 experience in the police and a further twelve years studying the Australasian legal system and police departments around the world.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThis was written by Tom Lewis in January 1998 in the introduction to his book Coverups \u0026amp; Copouts, which I hold in my hand. It is interesting that as far back as 1998 some long-serving police officers were expressing their concern about practices in the police force and some deficiencies within the public service\u2014deficiencies that were not giving the public the confidence they needed that all was well within our police force. Tom goes on to talk about other Government departments as well, but we are talking specifically about the police force, as did the bulk of his book. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First thinks that warts and all, as bad as it is, and as horrible as the reading in this report will be for most New Zealanders, this is a very good day. It is a good day for democracy, a good day for the public service, and a good day for the police force, because we have to hand the long-awaited Report of the Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct produced for us by Dame Margaret Bazley. I also take the opportunity to say that it is a good thing that Margaret Bazley is a Dame, because, on the basis of this report New Zealand First says she certainly deserves such a title. Unfortunately, in the future, public servants who serve us as well as she has will not have the privilege of being accorded that title, because the Government has removed such systems of recognition from the statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe report is not good reading for New Zealanders and is not good reading for the police force. It is encouraging that Dame Margaret Bazley points out that the number of incidents of police misconduct over the years\u2014although, as Mr Power pointed out, she found 313 complaints of sexual assault against 222 officers, and 141 of those she said contained sufficient evidence for which criminal charges could have been laid\u2014was \u201Crelatively rare across the force\u201D. She goes on to say that the public could have confidence in the calibre of police investigations into allegations of sexual assault by police officers \u201Cin more recent times\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is no secret, and it is widely accepted and known, that certain sectors in the communities\u2019 minority groups in this country have for years expressed concern about how they have been treated by the police. It is regrettable, sad, and a blight on our history\u2014on our record\u2014that one of those groups should be New Zealand women and that they should have been treated so badly by a few officers in the police force, and also that senior officers who were in a position to have done something in those times, did not. Had they simply done one thing\u2014that is, their duty, which is something they took an oath on and swore to uphold\u2014then we would not be reading the sordid tales we are reading in this report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E New Zealand First takes some pride in the fact that it has played a major role in increasing the size of New Zealand\u2019s police force and thereby its diversity, which is encouraging. We are also encouraged by the increasing number of women who are joining the force. From that will come\u2014it has already come\u2014a change in the culture, a change in the attitudes, and a change in the way the police operate today and, more important, will operate in the future. I am reminded of the words of a proverb that has often been said in the past: \u201CAll it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.\u201D Sadly, this report tells us that for a very long time good people who could have done something did nothing. That is in the past, and we should not just consign it to history and just say: \u201CWell, we\u2019ve dealt with it. Let\u2019s move on.\u201D; it is useful henceforth for us to remind ourselves about our history and our past so that we may do better and serve the citizens of this nation better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has long championed for this country a stronger police force, tougher laws for transgressors, and victims\u2019 rights and we have championed an increase in the budget for the New Zealand Police. We have championed an increase in the numbers of police officers on the beat. But we also stand by the view that we want, and demand, an increase in the quality and standards demonstrated by our policemen and policewomen who actually do their duty for us on the streets. This will come only with the code of conduct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe announcement that the code of conduct is to be part of the review is welcomed, but let us not underestimate the difficulty of that. Here are a couple of points to ponder. New Zealand has changed, as the Minister said. We would have thought it unacceptable that a police officer could take up after-hours work as a prostitute and that that police officer be allowed to continue in the job. There will be challenges now, because prostitution is a legitimate form of employment in this country. That is something this Parliament has done. The challenges now for the police as to what the code of conduct will look like should not be underestimated. We have introduced a range of standards that other New Zealanders will challenge to this very day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI also put on record here today that the Police Complaints Authority now needs to be absolutely, 100 percent independent. New Zealand First asks now that the Minister change the legislation he has drafted to make the Police Complaints Authority an Office of Parliament, to make the commissioner for the Police Complaints Authority a commissioner\u2019s appointment, and to put that office under the New Zealand Parliament and under the Officers of Parliament Committee, which is chaired by the Speaker, has all parties represented on it, receives totally independent funding, is not in any way subordinate to the Ministry of Justice or the police, and is seen to be totally and absolutely independent of those bodies. This report now makes it absolutely imperative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe have a good person in Justice Goddard. We have faith and confidence that she can do the work that has to be done. But New Zealand First is now saying that we should go one step further. Let us give the Police Complaints Authority absolute and total autonomy to investigate without fear or favour any allegations of this type that are ever brought before it again, and let us make sure that it is resourced so that it can conduct those investigations from a first principles starting point. No more should it be seen to be party, or subordinate, to the police or the Ministry of Justice in any way, shape, or form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u002236efb6b4577446c0a49a71e7df0cf69e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236efb6b4577446c0a49a71e7df0cf69e\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou te Whare. The UMR Research report released last month described a common goal for police to be ethical, professional, well respected, and effective. Yet, 3 hours ago, a report was released that upheld against police 141 complaints of sexual assault between 1979 and 2005 that demonstrated sufficient evidence for criminal charges or disciplinary action. It is a report that barely skims the surface of the traumatic impact and devastation that sexual violence leaves in its wake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThis nation has been battered by the storms of violence for far too long. Sexual violence costs the economy approximately $1.2 billion per year. But its cost in leaving women and families annihilated by the fear, the memories, and the pain of assault cannot be quantified. Today we must as politicians restore faith in the police so that our women can be reassured and have faith that justice will be done. This report sends that message. We know that sexual violence is significantly under-reported in New Zealand. Now we have it in black and white\u2014the proof of police officers turning a blind eye to inappropriate sexual behaviour. The report describes incident upon incident of disgraceful conduct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EFirst and foremost, as a nation we must be bold enough to face the epidemic of sexual violence we are seeing evidence of in the policing sector that also manifests itself across other areas of our community. We absolutely must front up and dispel any illusion that violence of any kind is normal and acceptable. Our first responsibility is to provide leadership in our own wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi to take responsibility to live without violence. Today the opportunity is provided by the very public, high-profile review of the police, to send a message that we are a nation that refuses to shirk away from the disgraceful conduct and the terror of sexual assault that some members of our police force have inflicted upon others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party commends the work of Dame Margaret Bazley and the commitment of the commission in reviewing all relevant investigation files on complaints of alleged sexual assault by police or police associates since January 1979. This report today is just another link in a chain of dysfunction and disarray that has been associated with the New Zealand Police. We have had a crisis with 111 calls, with too many emergency calls unanswered and New Zealanders being left in the lurch. We have heard former Police Commissioner Rob Robinson detail the filth that was clogging up the capacity of the police computers\u2014emails, images, and movie clips of a pornographic nature. There have been other crises of confidence with the police system, as we witnessed in the report of M\u0101ori perceptions of police, which stated that simply being M\u0101ori was a sufficient cause for suspicion by the police. The studies revealed that M\u0101ori respondents believed that police viewed M\u0101ori essentially as criminal. I repeat that simply being M\u0101ori was a sufficient cause for suspicion. It is not a new story. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI looked today at another report about the police, The M\u0101ori and the Criminal Justice System: a new perspective\u2014he whaipainga hou. In that report Moana Jackson describes a level of disillusionment that has grave portents for M\u0101ori and police relations. He drew on analysis from the Waitangi Tribunal, which stated: \u201CWhen one significant section of the community burns with a sense of injustice, the rest of the community cannot safely pretend that there is no reason for their discontent. That is a recipe for social unrest \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe challenge before this House today is what we do with the burning sense of injustice that New Zealand citizens are experiencing today, as they have over the last few months and, indeed, decades. We do not want a police system whereby M\u0101ori believe they will be ignored or unfairly targeted for apprehension, arrest, and prosecution. We want to see cultural competence included in police employment contracts. It was former Police Commissioner Peter Doone who argued in the year 2000 that we must look for a fundamentally different approach required to break the cycle in which many police and M\u0101ori hold negative perceptions of each other. I think of our young women who have been sexually abused and have ended up in institutions in this country, full of anger and outrage at what has happened to them and not able to trust the police or the State systems to provide them with protection. They are women who are criminalised by their anger and outrage, and by the trauma of sexual abuse that has never been addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E Where have we got to when those whom we turn to for help are, instead, condoning or turning a blind eye to sexual activity of an inappropriate nature? Where have we got to if the evidence of assault is greeted with a wall of silence from colleagues protecting those officers complained about? What sort of police system has emerged for complainants to become the subject of negative stereotypes and to be treated with what the report describes as a culture of scepticism? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party was pleased to see the unreserved apology from Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad\u2014his genuine remorse that families and friends have suffered from such hurt and harm. We appreciated the statement from the Police Association that it supported the need for a code of conduct for the police. We are even more pleased to learn of the Prime Minister\u2019s immediate response that the Government is promising to implement all of the 60 recommendations made by the commission of inquiry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThe recommendations are extremely full and comprehensive, detailing examples of training and discipline reaction and recommending a code of conduct for police. The report gives us a new start, an opportunity to strip away the sapwood and start again. The first recommendation says it all. It is what one would have thought to be a standard\u2014indeed, an essential policy\u2014for any business to operate by. It is: \u201CNew Zealand Police should develop standards, policies, and guidelines on inappropriate sexual conduct towards, and the forming of sexual relationships with, members of the public. These should be incorporated into all codes of conduct and relevant policy \u2026\u201D. But how much hope can we expect from a response from police made shortly after the report was released, which states: \u201CThe report does not point to systemic failings with police policy, procedures, standards, training, or behaviour.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThis report is totally about systemic failures of policy, procedures, standards, training, and behaviour. How much more must the public of New Zealand be exposed to before failings are recognised and something done? Then again, I was absolutely appalled that the President of the Police Association, Greg O\u2019Connor, on today of all days, could come out with a statement that says he hopes police can get on with the job now and move on from \u201Cthe distractions which have occurred over the last few years\u201D. Sexual assault is not a distraction. One hundred and forty-one upheld complaints are not a distraction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe welcome the call from the report for a culture to be created where people are willing to stand up and challenge unethical or criminal behaviour. As the report states: \u201CCases where misconduct went unchallenged for months or years undoubtedly had a dampening effect on the morale of female and male officers.\u201D We must do better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003ERecommendation 57 suggests that police districts should establish groups of community representatives who meet regularly to provide comment and feedback on police service delivery and policing issues throughout the district. Perhaps this is where our greatest hope can lie\u2014hope that our communities are heard, that longstanding concerns are registered and addressed, and that failings are identified and successes are shared. We must today make a mark in the sand so that never again will we see such deplorable actions and disgraceful behaviour carried out by the police of this land\u2014as we see in this report. And in this respect the M\u0101ori Party welcomes this report\u2014we also know that we are lucky that we have a Minister of Police who will make sure that all of those recommendations in the report will be carried out. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022d14cdfab8772404791e6cfea04df4097\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d14cdfab8772404791e6cfea04df4097\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Today is the culmination of what has been a very grim sense of foreboding for a long time, as we have witnessed the trials, the aftermath of those trials, and the speculation about the way that evidence was presented to the juries of those trials, over the conduct of certain police officers and a prevailing culture within the organisation at that time. Although, like many New Zealanders, I welcome the report as being a chance to put all those issues out in the open where they belong and as providing a chance for us to move forward now and resolve them, I am not entirely confident that will prove to be the case. I say that for these reasons. I support the recommendations that have been outlined in the report, and I am pleased that the Government is going to implement them. But, from a cursory reading of them, I am not satisfied that they go far enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe fundamental issue here concerns a deeply ingrained culture within that organisation, premised around loyalty to colleagues\u2014and that is a great thing to have. But it is a culture blemished and blinded by that loyalty having become so overriding that wrongdoing cannot be seen as not being part of it. Without addressing the way that appointments at senior middle-management level and above are made and introducing more transparency into that process\u2014notwithstanding the fact that there will be a code of conduct, and notwithstanding the commitments that have been given\u2014I am not entirely convinced that the fundamental problem will be addressed. If members cast their minds back to the recent trials, they will remember that it became clear there was a profound, deeply interwoven culture of everyone looking out for everyone else, and of making sure either that they all had the same story to tell or that the processes by which the various complaints were investigated were coordinated in order to make sure that only in the most extreme instances did things ever progress. That is the root of the problem that has given rise to the crisis of confidence in the police that this report seeks to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn fact, to put the situation into some sense of perspective, this report is the worst moment for the New Zealand Police since a previous commissioner, Mr Compton, was dismissed for corruption in the late 1950s. This is a half-century crisis of confidence in the New Zealand Police. The solution has to be bold in order to replace the sense of suspicion, intimidation, and scepticism that there will be, in many sectors of the public, as a result of these events. As I say, I laud the inquiry; I think it is a positive step forward. Dame Margaret Bazley is a superb person, and her judgment is acute and needs to be respected. But the inquiry has to be followed up with action as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to make two further points in the time available to me. There is one group of people who deserve our absolute admiration at the moment. They are the women who came forward with their complaints and who continue to come forward today in very difficult, stressful, and often hostile situations. Without them, we would not be having this discussion today. We owe it to them to act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThere is one final group that we also need to remember today. As we speak in this House, policemen and women are out on the beat\u2014good, decent policewomen and men. We should respect them and the job they have to do. They are the ones today who will bear the brunt of the criticism that arises from this report, because they are there. They are innocent parties in the main, but we owe it to them to put things right too, because their careers, their future, and our nation\u2019s community security are at stake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis is a very positive report. I am not entirely convinced, though, that it goes far enough. The onus now rests on the Government and on this House to make sure that the messages the report contains regarding what is unacceptable behaviour are translated into new procedures and new practices that endeavour, as best we can, to ensure there is no repetition of such behaviour in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022105b7299d3b64576ae167691895199d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022105b7299d3b64576ae167691895199d4\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Dame Margaret Bazley has been a fine servant of this country\u2014a public servant\u2014and, I think, never more than in the quality, depth, and thoroughness of the report she has given to us today, with all of the challenges that it represents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI echo the comment of Mr Dunne, who has just resumed his seat. First and foremost we should acknowledge the courage of the women who made this report\u2014and, therefore, the recommendations arising from it\u2014possible. I refer to the 60 recommendations we have been addressing in the course of this debate this afternoon. I will be addressing, in particular, the balance of the report\u2019s recommendations\u2014the 12 or so dealing with the Police Complaints Authority. The others have been quite well canvassed by previous speakers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E As Minister of Justice I have responsibility for policy, and for securing and managing funding for the Police Complaints Authority, and, of course, I am involved in the appointment of its members. The Police Complaints Authority is a critical part of the architecture of providing not only a police service but also the access to a proper complaints process, should it be required, that is the right of the public of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct relating to the authority fall broadly into two areas: recommendations relating to the handling of complaints by the authority, and those that require legislative change. Briefly, 10 of the 12 recommendations deal with improving the authority\u2019s accessibility to people who may wish to make a complaint; developing a communications strategy to increase awareness of the authority; enabling complainants to make submissions and statements orally to the authority; ensuring that the authority has more regular communication with complainants, once complaints have been lodged; looking at ways of effecting regular feedback from a sample of complainants, partly by way of quality control of the work that is being undertaken; dealing with the backlog of complaints; ensuring that the authority exercises its discretion in favour of accepting historical sexual assault complaints; putting a very tight time limit on taking action in terms of communicating with complainants; removing the discretion in terms of the authority communicating with the Attorney-General and the Minister of Police over any matter where the authority does not believe the police have taken necessary and timely action when recommended to do so; and, finally, looking at the availability and freedom of information concerning the detail around complaints, and that, in part, requires looking at some of the provisions around privacy of information dealing with individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThose are a wide range of recommendations and I want to say, without ambiguity, that all of the recommendations will be actioned. All of the recommendations in the inquiry report dealing with the Police Complaints Authority will be implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EWith regard to the recommendations requiring legislative change, they will be actioned through amendments to the Independent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill, which, as members know, was put on hold specifically so that any outcome from this inquiry requiring legislative change could be actioned as quickly as possible. Keeping this new legislation effectively ready in the wings has meant that we can now move quickly on the recommendations. The bill provides an appropriate vehicle for implementing these changes; indeed, I have already instructed Ministry of Justice officials to develop the appropriate amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI have discussed with the Police Complaints Authority, Justice Goddard, those recommendations that are of a more operational nature and focus, and I thank Simon Power for his strong endorsement of Justice Goddard and the work she is already doing as the new Police Complaints Authority. I absolutely agree. She has indicated her strong commitment to action these recommendations, and work is already under way on a number of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis report provides a clear set of recommendations to strengthen the effectiveness of the authority. Although work has been undertaken to date, the Government certainly does intend to make any other changes required to address the issues that the report raises. Similar to the situation with the Commissioner of Police, media statements have been made available on a table, and members certainly can avail themselves of them. They give more detail of the recommendations concerning the authority and the action that either is being taken or is being proposed to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI also want to touch briefly on additional action that has already been taken that is relevant to some of the issues raised in this report. A team of four investigating officers was established to enable the authority to investigate major matters independently. I think that was an important step, and further work needs to be done to advance it. As part of last year\u2019s Budget, the authority received additional funding to help address the backlog issue that is identified in this report. Again, that work is well under way. That was over half a million dollars of additional funding specifically to target the backlog.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EWe also already have mechanisms in place to address some of the quite specific issues raised in the inquiry report. The commission recommends changes to the way that sexual assault complaints are investigated, and, in addition, the resourcing of support groups involved in assessing and supporting complainants. The recently established sexual violence ministerial group and the Task Force for Action on Sexual Violence will take a leading role in recommendations in this area. Again, that ministerial group and task force are already established. There has been significant consultation with key sector groups to ensure that the terms of reference of the task force are appropriate and supported by the wider field, both governmental and non-governmental. The task force supports the work of the sexual violence ministerial group, which I chair as Minister of Justice, and also comprises the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs, the Minister for ACC, and the Minister of Police. The aim of that task force is to achieve better coordination of responses to sexual violence\u2014a key area of concern addressed in this report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EFinally, later today I will be asking Parliament to support a recommendation to the Governor-General to appoint Acting District Court Judge Michael Lance QC as Deputy Police Complaints Authority, which will further enhance the authority\u2019s work and effectiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI conclude by simply noting that, as I said at the start, Dame Margaret Bazley has done this country and this Parliament a fine service with the quality, depth, and thoroughness of this report. She has clearly articulated the issues and, yes, the failings that need to be addressed. She has made recommendations\u201460 of them\u2014each of which requires action, and it is our job to take that action. This Government will act on all 60 of those recommendations. The police are committed to implementing the change that is required. The Police Complaints Authority is absolutely committed to implementing the recommendations that relate to it. I believe that this report does indeed represent both a dark day but also the beginning of the significant transformation and change that are required. I am confident that the steps are now being put in place to ensure that the recommendations are genuinely implemented, and that the oversight of that process will ensure that it is a long-term and sustainable process of change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9c96d0f33b2423cb41d0fbbe6bbb926\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9c96d0f33b2423cb41d0fbbe6bbb926\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E If there is one organisation in this country that we need to have implicit faith in, it is the New Zealand Police, because that organisation carries the can for a lot of other organisations and agencies. When they are unavailable, it is the police that people think of to call on when they are at their most vulnerable. I find today to be a particularly difficult day, and as the Minister of Justice has said earlier, it is a particularly black day for the New Zealand Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI am wary of some comments made that suggest the New Zealand Police needs in some way to put this issue behind it and move on. I believe that that is the last thing it needs to do. I believe that the New Zealand Police needs to be able to carry in the back of its mind today the lessons it can learn from this report, and the lessons it has taken on board over the last few embarrassing years, as various incidents have come to light. I feel sorry for the vast number of police officers; I think about half of them have been in the police for only 10 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EBut I believe that the underlying theme at the bottom of this report is one of satisfaction on the part of the public with the work of the police. It is not up to the police or to the rest of us to decide whether people can have confidence in the police. In the end, it is those people\u2014the most vulnerable in our community\u2014who will decide whether they have the confidence in that organisation that is needed in order to be able to bare their souls, in some respects, and to make complaints of a most personal nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E The initial complaints that led to this report are welded into the minds of police officers and former police officers like myself. In thinking back on the culture that existed at that time, I say, thankfully, that there have been a large number of changes. I can say that I, like many others, am very proud of the service I had with the New Zealand Police\u2014in my case, between 1975 and 1999. But I feel tainted by these complaints, particularly as a member of the Criminal Investigation Bureau (CIB) through the 1980s and 1990s, and I feel tainted by the tenor of this report, although I believe that every one of its recommendations is completely justified. I agree with the Government, which has said it will implement every one of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe fact is that although individual officers have been the subject of complaints, individual officers have the ability to change the culture of the groups in which they operate. Although the commissioner has made the point, as he sees it and as he has viewed it, that there is no suggestion within the report of systemic failure, I agree with others who have spoken and said that, in fact, Dame Margaret Bazley has found exactly that to have occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI think back to the early 1980s and to training within the CIB. For instance, the detective manual that existed at that time called upon detectives to be very wary of complainants in sexual abuse matters, and reminded detectives that those complaints were easy to make and hard to defend. In actual fact, of course, such complaints are incredibly hard to make. Thankfully, in the mid-1980s there were law changes in respect of sex crimes within the Crimes Act that protected victims and encouraged them to be able to give good evidence that could lead to a conviction. The fact is too that at that time the police implemented a number of sexual abuse and child abuse teams, which led each of us to a new understanding of the psychology of sexual victims and sexual offenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EWhat I find most despicable about the complaints, of which a lot has been made in the media\u2014and so it should have been\u2014is that each of the three offenders whose names we heard mentioned time and time again had been members of the CIB. Each of them would have been fully aware of the nature of the psychology of sex victims. Each of them would have known that the behaviour exhibited by 18-year-old and 16-year-old girls, and by those who had been the subject of abuse, showed a consent that was not soberly given in full awareness of the facts as to what they were consenting to at the time. I do not believe, personally, that the police officers had any right to rely on any consent they had been given. Even today\u201420 years down the track\u2014to try to argue that it was all a matter of consent is something I find absolutely abhorrent. The public demand higher standards of the police than of those in other professions, and that has been underlined time and time again when dealing with members of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI notice that recommendation R18 seeks consistency and transparency in the complaints process, so that there is a consistent level of service across the country. I think that particular recommendation goes to the heart of what I was speaking about just a couple of minutes ago: the ability of an individual or a couple of individuals to dictate the culture within the group. No one would look back on the history of the Rotorua CIB squad and see that there was anything less than a disgusting level of public service in relation to sexual crimes. It is important that members of the public who wish to make a complaint are able to go into any police station around the country and to receive the same high level of service that they would receive anywhere else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI also note the recommendations that there is to be an annual \u201Chealth of the organisation\u201D audit by the State Services Commission and, under recommendation R60, annual auditing for 10 years by the Auditor-General in relation to the implementation of new measures. I see those audits as being entirely necessary, because no matter what changes may have been made in recent times or will be made in the next couple of weeks in respect of this organisation, we have to know\u2014and to have confidence\u2014that the changes will be implemented not only this year but next year, the year after that, and the decade after that. The fact that Dame Margaret Bazley saw fit to put into writing her concern that the organisation may move on too quickly from this inquiry\u2014and believe, once it is over, that the boxes have been ticked\u2014and the fact that she has seen fit to put in not one but two audit measures that will operate over at least the next decade is hugely embarrassing for members of the New Zealand Police. And that is embarrassing to myself, as someone who was associated with that organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI do not wish to continue speaking much longer, other than to say that the complainants in all matters who are making complaints against the police take their complaints seriously. It is incredibly important\u2014in fact, it is fundamental\u2014to life within a civilisation that the members of the public can have full confidence in their State\u2019s agent. I am very happy with the recommendations in respect of the Police Complaints Authority. I know that the authority will do all it can to give substance and confidence to its work in respect of the New Zealand Police. Although this is a black day, I look forward to a day sometime down the track when every one of our country\u2019s citizens can have a full level of confidence in our police service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d32b02134bbe4f3195e0706c7f0a6cf1\u0022\u003EState-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limitedand Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ebc90544a454180a7b8750321203aa8\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00227267dcd9181d4ea5ab46bfc878cdd444\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227267dcd9181d4ea5ab46bfc878cdd444\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by the Commerce Committee, and that the committee report finally to the House on or before 30 April 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is twofold. Firstly, it permits a merger of AgriQuality and Asure to occur, provided that shareholding Ministers are satisfied that a merger is viable. Secondly, the bill allows shareholding Ministers to direct the board of AgriQuality not to provide certain services under the Animal Products Act 1999. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ETo understand why a merger of the two companies is being contemplated, it is necessary to briefly review their history. AgriQuality and Asure were established as State-owned enterprises on 1 November 1998 from the former MAF Quality Management. The reason for establishing these companies as State-owned enterprises was to improve the efficiency of the services provided by both organisations and to separate the service delivery function from the policy and regulatory advice provided by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. They were created as separate State-owned enterprises because they had distinct product offerings, and the operations of the new entities faced distinctly different challenges at that time. They were also structured in a way to ensure that there was minimal market overlap, as competition between the two was not envisaged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMuch has happened in the 9 years since AgriQuality and Asure were established. Consumers have become much more demanding about food safety and traceability, thus placing greater pressure on companies like AgriQuality to provide comprehensive end-to-end food safety solutions. The New Zealand economy has also become more vulnerable to biosecurity threats as the international community has become more interconnected\u2014and probably we have become aware of some of the threats we were not aware of previously, as well. This has placed greater value on the provision of an integrated and comprehensive biosecurity response capability. AgriQuality and Asure currently compete to provide these services. Better New Zealand - wide outcomes could result from a more collaborative approach, particularly in the provision of a highly skilled and coordinated standing army, should a major biosecurity threat such as foot-and-mouth or a similar disease strike. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EIn respect of the key provisions of the bill, it is right to consider the merger of the companies for the reasons I have already mentioned, should the business case currently being developed make financial and strategic sense from the perspective of the shareholders and the Ministers, but on behalf of the taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E To enable a possible future merger, legislation is required to remove one company, or both, from schedules 1 and 2 of the State-Owned Enterprises Act 1986, and to consequently amend a number of other enactments. The bill enables this to occur. The bill also provides that certain matters are not affected simply by reason of the merger of the two companies. For example, a merger cannot be used by a third party to claim that there has been a breach of contract, and an employee cannot claim that there has been a technical redundancy effectively through the merger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EPart 2 enables that a merger of the two companies is time limited. It expires 2 years after the date on which the bill receives the Royal assent. The bill enables shareholding Ministers to direct AgriQuality\u2019s board of directors not to provide export red meat inspection services under the Animal Products Act 1999 without specific authorising legislation preventing AgriQuality from providing export red meat services, which could breach Part 2 of the Commerce Act 1986. The bill also specifies how the direction must be given to the board of directors and how direction must be notified. Furthermore, it provides that the board of directors of AgriQuality must comply with that direction. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2653b60f28247b0b6e19ae8639a242a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2653b60f28247b0b6e19ae8639a242a\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party in opposition to the proposals laid out in the bill by the Minister, for a number of reasons. The first, and most important, is that the reason the two companies were set up in the first place was to provide a source of competition within the two structures, one doing meat inspection and other doing food safety\u2014completely different roles. It is interesting to hear the opposition from the two Ministers. Let me read what the Hon Paul Swain, one of their former ministerial colleagues, said at the time: \u201CIt is the second time that member has criticised the Opposition for doing its job. The point of the legislation going to the committee\u201D\u2014then presumably further on\u2014\u201Cis so that the Opposition can ask the hard questions.\u201D Well, here the Opposition is doing its job, and the Ministers\u2019 colleague who criticised the Opposition last time for doing exactly what I am doing, is over there chirping back; so nothing changes, just the people on either side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe reason why National is opposed to this bill is that we are seeing another intervening socialist ministerial directive telling these guys how they should do their job. At the end of the day, there is no evidence to say that the competition that has been provided by having the two separate entities has any less merit now than it had then. As the Minister leaves the Chamber I just want to point out to him that the Animal Health Board chairman and chief executive have raised very serious concerns about the proposal, because they have some major doubt as to whether the tuberculosis and possum eradication process can continue under the proposed merger in the way the Minister is proposing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI wonder whether the Minister has had a submission from this organisation; if not, I suggest that it gets its submission in quickly to the Commerce Committee, because I understand that that is the committee hearing submissions on this bill. The Chief Executive of the Animal Health Board, Mr William McCook, told farmers that TB levy payers had enjoyed real benefits from competition between TB testing contractors. I know, as a farmer, that that is correct. I know, prior to the set-up of the two entities, we used to be dictated to as to who would come to the farm, when they would come to the farm, and what they would do when they were on the farm, and it was just tough if we did not like that. If we could not comply with that, then we were penalised. Since there has been competition in regard to that, we have had a far more conciliatory and far more organised approach to that, with a much more cost-effective provision of service. So I tell the Minister that he needs to listen carefully to the Animal Health Board and its members, because they have done a fine job in getting TB in this country under control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EFurther, I understand that one of the concerns the Minister has is the issue of meat inspection. I invite members to go back to have a look prior to the division of AgriQuality and Asure from the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry structure they came out of, and what used to happen in our meatworks in regard to meat inspection. A cartel held farmers and the meatworks to ransom. It used to demand exorbitant fees to provide that service. Its service was often found to be wanting. As an effect of that we had the highest killing charges in our meatworks of any of the OECD countries. Here we are, a competing nation, exporting our products to the world, and what we have is a Government structure piling thousands of dollars of costs into that structure for no net gain to anybody\u2014not in terms of quality, not in terms of what the meat inspectors are there for in the first place, and not in terms of market access. There is no gain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I invite members to go back and look at that and ask the question whether having the ability of another suitable organisation that would be recognised internationally, and having the ability of that organisation to say \u201CI will\u201D or \u201Cwe might\u201D compete in this area, has brought huge benefits. I have no understanding of what it is that has brought the Minister to his conclusion that these two organisations should be merged and then come under the jurisdiction of the Minister himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe two State-owned enterprises were created, as the Minister said, in November 1998 out of the corporatisation of the MAF Quality Management business units. AgriQuality\u2019s core business is the provision of food safety and biosecurity services. I agree with the Minister that we need to do whatever it takes to ensure that we have solid biosecurity structures in place; on that I have no disagreement with the Minister. But what I do disagree with the Minister over is that merging, and thereby reducing the number of organisations that can have input or provide technical advice, or respond in the case of a biosecurity incursion, is not the way to make sure we achieve that outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI remind the Minister of what happened on Waiheke Island at the time of the foot-and-mouth hoax. We had the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry scurrying around trying to round up enough people to get out there and find out whether this was a real foot-and-mouth incursion, or a hoax. Media people were travelling to farms, and travelling back and furnishing their reports in Auckland and other such places before the ministry could get there. That says a lot about the resourcing, but how will merging these two organisations together, thereby presumably reducing the amount of expertise that exists, help in that matter? For the life of me, I have not heard anybody submit to me that this would somehow or other have assisted on that particular occasion. The Minister has a lot more questions to answer than he has given answers to, and I am sure we might hear some of those answers during the course of this debate, but I doubt whether they will come from that Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESo I suggest that the Government makes sure that all the relevant bodies are able to submit to the select committee and that it does stand back and not just take advice from those within various departments that have vested interests. It should stand back and listen to the stakeholders themselves\u2014the farmers, the meat companies, the biosecurity agencies, and all those who feed into the various aspects of this bill\u2014to justify where the improved efficiency the Minister speaks of can come from, when one turns what is now a competitive environment into a monopoly service provider, and justify also to the select committee how it is that it will increase the resourcing into certain areas such as biosecurity, when one actually reduces the efficiency of the service provided. I would like answers to those questions, and I am sure they may be forthcoming in that select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe aim of the bill, as the Minister put it, is to merge AgriQuality and Asure New Zealand, and to give the Minister himself powers to direct those agencies where and when they should or should not poke their beaks, as it were. It defies logic how Ministers of the Crown will ever be in a position to have that kind of micromanagement, advice, or expertise to ensure we get the right outcome. I just say to the Minister that wherever this has happened before, the outcome the Minister was seeking has always been the opposite of that set out by those groups who have advised the Minister on it. I suggest that the Minister should also take a look at some of the articles being written by some within the agricultural sector who are overwhelmingly opposed to what is being proposed. He should take the time to go through the detail of some of their argument so that he can have a clearer view of what he is trying to achieve and whether this will achieve it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI think that this is a backwards step. I think it is a mistake. I hope that during the select committee process the Government will come to realise that and drop the idea altogether, although its track record suggests that that would be unlikely. If the Government does go ahead with this, I can see further amendments, not too far down the track, to what is being proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u002274cc24e5969644bfb28f16d263723c1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274cc24e5969644bfb28f16d263723c1f\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill 2007. I thank the member opposite, Shane Ardern, for his comments, and I look forward to the National Party\u2019s constructive contribution at the Commerce Committee when it is considering this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe two entities,AgriQuality and Asure New Zealand, were, as has been traversed already, established in November 1998, but I think it is important to remember what the functions of the two organisations were in order to work out the sense of now contemplating a merger. The AgriQuality core business was the provision of food safety and biosecurity services\u2014that is, its business was to inspect live meat, as it were\u2014whereas Asure New Zealand inspected dead meat, or processed meat. Those two functions were important and, perhaps in their day, justified establishing separate organisations\u2014although personally I would query that, as well; I am not sure whether it was altogether sensible to separate out those two functions. It was as though in 1998 the corporatisation model was being extrapolated out to another level again, beyond that to which it was originally intended to apply. It is one thing to create a State-owned enterprise for the purpose of establishing greater efficiencies in delivering public services, but then to split those out into two different organisations with different functions was a kind of atomisation of the process that really did not stack up, or has not stacked up in recent times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI want to traverse a little of that history. The corporatisation move was established under the fourth Labour Government in the 1980s, and it resulted in a lot of improved efficiencies in businesses that were core business of the State. Certainly, when the key export earner of the economy is agriculture, it is right and proper that the State has a direct and hands-on function in the administration and quality supervision of that part of the economy. But to separate out the functions into two different organisations\u2014and for my own understanding more than for anything else, I refer to them as live meat and dead meat; people will understand what I mean by that: the meat inspectors, and the inspection of processed meat\u2014was to carry corporatisation to an extreme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIt becomes important to say that a number of things have changed in the intervening years. There are two things that make the consideration of a merger, and therefore this bill that is in front of Parliament, a sensible suggestion and a sensible proposition from the Government. First of all, consumers now require higher and more transparent standards of quality than they used to. Although that is no reflection on the standards that were met in the past, it does mean that if two State entities were to compete with each other\u2014which is the proposition that gave rise to this bill\u2014then the interests of consumers are not likely to be observed or met in that instance. The second thing that has become important in the course of the intervening years has been the need to track meat\u2014the need to track live and processed meat in order to be able to determine, in the event of a biosecurity risk, the precise herd from which a piece of processed meat has come, and, therefore, to go back to that particular farmer and that particular herd and contain any identified risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe images that will come into the minds of the public in the consideration of this bill will be those ghastly images from the late 1990s of the burning of herds in the United Kingdom, which showed the need to track back exactly where the biosecurity risks came from. My colleague on the other side of the House referred also to the recent putative outbreak of foot-and-mouth on Waiheke Island. That is a very good contemporary example. Although, of course, it came to nothing, it was an essential test. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIt is the view of the Government that creating the possibility for these two Crown entities to merge will, in fact, provide a greater efficiency, in that if there ever were a need to separate out the two functions, the time has long since passed for that to be the most effective way to administer the quality standards we need, not only to assure consumers here and abroad but also to maintain the integrity of our biosecurity protections in New Zealand. Those twin challenges have emerged over the last few years\u2014the higher expectations of consumers, and the need to identify, contain, and sheet back to its origins any biosecurity risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill is to put into legislation a way of preventing these two bodies from competing with each other in the provision of export red meat inspection services, and to allow for the merging of the two organisations at some point. It is interesting and pertinent to note that the Public Service Association (PSA)# welcomes the announcement of this legislation. The PSA national secretary, Richard Wagstaff, has stated: \u201CThe benefits to PSA members at these enterprises and the New Zealand taxpayer will be significant. It\u2019s a common-sense solution to issues that hamper efficiency and effectiveness.\u201D He went on to state that the two enterprises must provide an integrated service in order to protect New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity interests, that that is almost impossible to achieve if the two organisations are running against each other head-to-head in competition, so a merger will promote a more strategic and responsive capacity to address biosecurity threats. I welcome those comments, because the PSA represents almost totally the workers who work in both organisations, and they have been the ones who have experienced some career instability and uncertainty, which has affected recruitment and retention. Certainly, their endorsement of the potential merger of the two organisations is significant, in that it comes from those who are the experts within the two organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I think it will become obvious what the benefits of the potential merger are. I look forward to debating this matter when it comes before the Commerce Committee. Thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f71e5e7d874cf0815e379b4018e52b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f71e5e7d874cf0815e379b4018e52b\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill. This bill is all about the merger of two State-owned enterprises that are in direct competition with each other. We in the National Party think that competition is quite a good thing. These two State-owned enterprises compete for a variety of services. They compete for TB testing. Asure has about 40 percent of that market share; AgriQuality has most of the remainder. They compete for biosecurity work, they compete for livestock inspections, and now AgriQuality wants to move into red meat inspection. Of course, the Labour Government and the Minister for State Owned Enterprises say no. They say that this is terrible because they say we cannot have State-owned enterprises competing. So the Minister says no to competition, yet there is a whole list of State-owned enterprises already competing against one another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWe have had AgriQuality and Asure in front of the Primary Production Committee since I have been in Parliament in the last 18 months. We went down and visited Asure in Belfast on the outskirts of Christchurch. It is doing a fantastic job, and it is a very, very good operation. We have had AgriQuality out on our farm doing our TB testing, and doing a very, very good job. It has a very professional approach and it gives great service. So when I look back through the collection of financial reviews in 2004 and 2005, one really strikes a chord. I quote from the comment made by the select committee on the merger in the bill that is in front of us now: \u201CThis merger will reduce competition in the provision of the quality assurance services, significantly disadvantaging the New Zealand primary sector.\u201D So up will go the meat inspection charges, up will go TB testing, up will go the price that people pay at the supermarket counter, and so it will flow on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThen I looked through the Bills Digest, particularly with regard to this bill. I will quote from it: \u201CThe Government would prefer to see SOEs collaborate and coordinate their activities rather than compete against each other at a cost to the Crown and taxpayers.\u201D Well, what about this? We have Meridian Energy, we have TrustPower, we have Genesis Energy\u2014the list goes on and on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9ab2ae6085c46cc90222fbfa196b658\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a bit ho-hum sometimes, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb3a8af7e414d839d8601e379b8dd09\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly right. But they are all competing to try to bring the cost down, not to remove competition so that the cost will go up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt is interesting when I followed on from looking at the Bills Digest to find that the business case for this merger still has not even been established. So we do not know what will happen in the business case. We do not know the economic benefits of this merger. We have not seen those. We did not hear about them when Mr Mallard stood up and spoke in front of us today. He did not talk about that. He was silent on any economic benefits he believes it may have. So I think we have some serious flaws in this whole merger of these two State-owned enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIt is ironic that Minister Mallard wrote in June 2006, within the last year, to all the chairs of State-owned enterprises, suggesting that they should go ahead and invest in areas outside but related to their core business. In other words, he said: \u201CHere is the chequebook. Get out there and diversify.\u201D When I put on my rural hat and think about it, I would ask whether farmers would want public sector entities such as Landcorp diversifying into milk production. Would farmers want Landcorp setting up a milk plant in competition with Fonterra? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EHere we have a Minister saying we do not want competition and we do not believe that it is very good with regard to AgriQuality and Asure, but on the other hand we actually want to see all State-owned enterprises diversifying. Mr Mallard believes that this role will bring about economic transformation. Well, is that not a buzzword? It is very like the buzzwords about carbon neutrality that we hear\u2014it is more hollow words, more bumper stickers, from this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EYet Treasury has concerns with this move. The Ministry of Economic Development has concerns with Mr Mallard\u2019s approach and it states that State-owned enterprises should be able to diversify. So we in the National Party have real concerns about this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EWhen I did a little bit of research on what the Labour Government thinks about these State-owned enterprises, I came up with this comment from Graeme Hunt: \u201CIn former times the Labour Government acquired business influence by nationalisation or licensing. Now the Government extends its reach into the private sector by regulation and through the power of State-owned enterprises.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ELabour was founded about 90 years ago on a wild socialism sort of agenda. It is immensely distrustful of business, but it is willing to let it prosper in a State-owned enterprise straitjacket of regulation and high taxes. When I looked at this matter, I also noticed that Dr Richard Norman, a senior lecturer in human resource management and industrial relations at Victoria University, did a study in August last year\u2014just in 2006\u2014and it was not one where he was going to damn the public sector. What he did was to go out and survey all those directors to see what they thought of the State-owned enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EHe did a survey of 62 directors who are currently on the boards of State-owned enterprises. He found that two-thirds of those who responded\u201428 directors\u2014had serious questions about the process of selecting directors. There were rumblings about directors being chosen to satisfy the political correctness of the Labour Government and not for their skills and experience. Here we have the Minister Trevor Mallard wanting State-owned enterprises to diversify, yet he goes around and handpicks his Labour lackeys to put on these State-owned enterprise boards. Mr Norman found that the competence of these boards is left floundering. It is a long, and sometimes unprofessional and embarrassing, appointment process\u2014that is what Mr Norman found when he looked at State-owned enterprise boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228217a3cdfc0491c81fd46147b1b48af\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Like Jim Bolger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afba96b728b44e4cac6ddbbfdfba0b7c\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: Some of them are very good, but some of them are actually left floundering. That is what his study confirmed when he researched and got 28 replies from those directors on State-owned enterprise boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ERight now, a big part of this bill is that the national biosecurity response capability will somehow improve under the merger of these two entities. It needs to, because Biosecurity New Zealand is an embarrassment\u2014it is an embarrassment to the landowners of New Zealand. Recently we had a GE corn outbreak that got into this country, somehow, because of human error. The Ogden report found that there were big problems with the computer system at Biosecurity New Zealand and with the human resource capability of its staff. As a result, 18 farms in New Zealand planted 260 hectares of corn contaminated with GE. So there are big concerns about Biosecurity New Zealand\u2019s response\u2014and I cannot see how merging these two State-owned enterprises will improve that. Didymo has broken out right throughout the rivers of the South Island. We have real concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ELet me tell members what I think is really important when we look at this whole State-owned enterprise debate. Recently, 400 millimetres of rain fell in Northland. I, as a farmer who was flooded in the Manawat\u016B floods of 2004, am very sympathetic towards those people, and I hope they are bearing up OK. But when we look at the Meteorological Service, which is a State-owned enterprise, and the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, which is a Crown research institute, we see that those two organisations need to work closer together. The institute has a multimillion-dollar Cray supercomputer that can forecast weather bombs and flood events 12 to 36 hours ahead of the Meteorological Service, yet the service has the contract for weather forecasting in New Zealand. If ever there was a case for a State-owned enterprise and a Crown research institute to get together and work more collaboratively, then there it is. There is the evidence. If the institute can get that information to the Meteorological Service and stop Mr Maharey and Mr Mallard from fighting, then that will deliver a better response to rural New Zealand landowners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIn looking forward, National has some real concerns about this bill, and we will have to iron those out in the Commerce Committee. What I have identified today is that the Minister for State Owned Enterprises has double standards. He does not want competition. He is willing to open up the cheque book and say that State-owned enterprises should diversify. At the end of the day, the public do not trust Mr Mallard, because he has closed so many schools and has made a complete shambles of the Rugby World Cup stadium in Auckland. Right now, he wants to see less competition, which will drive up the costs for rural New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad3df54563224b87b8231f6e58d72f2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad3df54563224b87b8231f6e58d72f2e\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E When I was on the Primary Production Committee, which is the select committee that these two organisations used to\u2014and presumably still do\u2014report to, I remember one thing that stood out above all others. These two organisations went at it in the courts. They sued each other. I listened carefully to the words of Shane Ardern\u2014a man I admire and whom I think I would like to call a friend\u2014and some of them did not ring true. They were not the words of the Shane Ardern I know. I know what Mr Ardern thinks, and he does not like waste. He does like competition, that is true, but he does not like waste. This State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill will eliminate waste, because in this situation the so-called competition is actually illusory. There is very little competition, in real terms, between these two companies. There is fighting, there are court cases, and there are takeover bids\u2014there are all of those things\u2014but I am not too sure that there is true competition in the way there should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI liked the words of Maryan Street, who said that this is State-owned enterprise privatisation to an extent that is ridiculous. I think she used the word \u201Catomised\u201D; I would just about go to the word \u201Cvaporised\u201D as far as these two organisations are concerned. That is quite true. I think it is eminently sensible that some cooperation and collaboration be brought into it\u2014in other words, that common sense begins to prevail again. It is a matter of ideology. I can understand the ideology of both the Labour and National sides when it comes to services\u2014because that is what we are talking about here, at the end of the day\u2014and how they are delivered through Government agencies, which I think it would be fair to say is Labour\u2019s preferred model; or trading enterprises, which is the National Party\u2019s preference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIf these two companies were to be merged and, for some reason or another, voters had a hiccup and put National into Government, I would be very, very surprised if National split asunder these two organisations. I think that would be most unlikely. So I think the competition we are seeing now is illusory and that efficiencies can be made. New Zealand First supports this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt saddens me that too often when we have a debate like this we forget what it is all about. This bill is about ensuring that the food products that leave our shore, the products that set the standard of living for almost all New Zealanders, are paramount. It must be, and it is essential, that these companies that oversee our product quality are absolutely beyond any shadow of doubt when it comes to their efficiency and diligence. Companies overseas, and other countries, will use anything they can\u2014any little slip-up\u2014to bar our products from their shores. Mr Guy knows that, Mr Ardern knows that, and Eric Roy, who I see is getting ready for a major speech, knows that, because I have heard them talking in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI think that to regard these operations as services is right and proper, and it is right that the Government exercises some control over them. Certainly, I think it fits the New Zealand First model, because we are interested in one thing: that the products leave our shores in the highest possible bracket as far as finance and quality go, so that we can return the goods to this country. I do not think it is excessive to say that when companies are fighting each other, are in takeover mode, and are in the business of going to the lawyers rather than getting on with their job, that must indeed result in them taking their eyes off the prize. It must be a situation that is not conducive to good business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI think that New Zealand First will support this bill right through. I will be interested, like Mr Ardern and the other speakers, to see what comes out of the Commerce Committee. I hope the wise heads on that committee do not overlook the service aspect of this bill, and I hope they do not get bogged down in ideology. I know that Mr Guy, Mr Ardern, and Mr Roy will not do that, and I ask them to restrain some of their colleagues who have a bent for that sort of thing. So New Zealand First supports this bill. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022b756d41b13bd41a6a204f650e86e090e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b756d41b13bd41a6a204f650e86e090e\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party supports the essence of this State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill, which merges the two organisations and creates a non-competitive model for such things as our meat inspection services. But we do have some concerns about the bill, which is why we will be abstaining. We think there is a problem with the merger in that the system may become too bureaucratic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe would prefer that the merged entity was not a State-owned enterprise, which is not really a very transparent model and not terribly accountable. It could be a bit too bureaucratic and repeat some of the problems that have accompanied Asure New Zealand over the years. Asure New Zealand was in a terrible mess, particularly in terms of relations with its staff. It laid people off and there was all kinds of skulduggery a few years ago. Apparently, that has been largely sorted out now, but if this bill creates just one organisation using an State-owned enterprise model without more transparency, we could find that the organisation is not efficient and that there are other problems associated with that model. So we would favour some more transparent form of Crown entity rather than a State-owned enterprise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI see two problems in using a competitive model in this area. I have some experience in this area. I was at one point in my career a meat grader at the Gear meatworks. I worked closely with the meat inspectors, who at that time worked under the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. So I am pretty aware of what they do, at least in terms of operations on the mutton chain and beef chains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI can see two problems with the competitive model. The first is that if firms are competing for a contract and want to get their costs down, the easiest way to do that is to employ less qualified staff\u2014they do not have to be paid as much\u2014and to push the meat through a bit quicker, which is quite easy to do. Of course, mistakes follow, and the product can create problems for New Zealand when it is exported and the mistakes are discovered overseas. We are talking here, to a large extent, about an export industry. I know, from the way things work, that if firms are put into that competitive model to get costs down, what suffers is quality, and that is something we want to protect at all costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMy friend Shane Ardern has talked about the fact that on the farm different inspectors come in to check for TB. Even there the competitive model may have some problems. But I think that with TB, either it is there or it is not, and with a bit of quality testing it can be worked out whether each contractor is performing its duties. But with the sorts of things that meat inspectors do on the chain in a meatworks, there is a fine line, often, between what is acceptable as a disease and what is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EFor example, pleurisy is one of the common diseases that comes down the chain, and whether the animal is deemed to have pleurisy depends on the amount of pleurisy. There is a shifting dividing line; it is not an exact science. A lot of meat inspection and meat grading is not an exact science. I can imagine that under a competitive model, to try to please the farmers or the meatworks, the inspector might put that line of where pleurisy exists more in the direction of the meatworks and the farmer\u2014at the cost of our overseas markets. That could easily be done if we got too much into this competitive model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMy experience with the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries model in the past was that meat inspectors did not have any pressure on them to push the line in the wrong direction, or to push the meat through too fast. They were just doing their job to the best ability they had. So the Green Party certainly thinks that a non-competitive model is best, but we just do not want it to be too much of a bureaucratic model or an inefficient model. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022775e3ce1f9284542a69318b4fab9b105\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022775e3ce1f9284542a69318b4fab9b105\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. I am pleased to have a chance to speak about the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill. I do not know a great deal about it, but I have listened carefully to what people have said in the House today. I guess we have an interest in the way in which this nation assesses the quality of animal products and materials, and in particular the way in which it invests in the export red meat market, given the number of M\u0101ori people who are involved in farming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThis bill is about services, and we do support it at this first reading. The M\u0101ori Party has taken an interest in the way in which quality outcomes and services can be achieved through two key State enterprises established to do so\u2014AgriQuality Ltd and Asure New Zealand Ltd. Part of our interest concerns how a merger can be planned between two very similar enterprises, and it would appear that the process is thoroughly agreeable to all parties, despite all the flexing of muscles between these agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe have on one hand Asure New Zealand, bound by its mission: \u201CWh\u0101ia ko taik\u0101k\u0101, Building Consumer Confidence\u201D. Its stated mission is to provide \u201Csimple and efficient solutions to complex food safety issues\u201D, with key values such as objectivity, know-how, and integrity. It is already well on the way towards creating a trusted partnership. Importantly, it has already established relationships with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, based on the State-owned enterprise model. On the other hand we have AgriQuality Ltd, an entity that last week issued a release saying that it was committed to creating value for its ultimate stakeholders, the New Zealand public. It then went on to further suggest that in the past 7 years we have witnessed immense changes across the international global supply-chain and regulatory environment, and that there is now a strong case to be considered for merging the two companies. Both companies are firmly focused on creating value, which will benefit the agricultural and food industries in New Zealand, with a particular focus on enhancing their reputations for the good of the New Zealand public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThere has been a bit of an X factor as far as the M\u0101ori Party is concerned. I want to draw to the attention of this House the fact that one of these entities, AgriQuality Ltd, is chaired by a Ng\u0101i Tahu person, H\u0113nare R\u0101kihia Tau, and that a Ng\u0101ti Porou and Ng\u0101ti  Kahungunu person, Tom Mulligan, is a director of Asure New Zealand Ltd. Too often in this House we hear about issues of disparities and problems that the Government has identified in another sector that seem to be disproportionately falling upon M\u0101ori, yet every day throughout this land M\u0101ori directors, managers, leaders, and entrepreneurs are helping to shape the society that we are a part of. I am thinking of some of New Zealand\u2019s finest leaders and movers and shakers who are on boards\u2014people like June McCabe, a director of Television New Zealand Ltd and New Zealand Venture Investment Fund Ltd; Taari Nicholas, a director of Transmission Holdings Ltd; Mavis Mullins, a director of Landcorp Farming Ltd; Sir Paul Reeves, a director of Mighty River Power Ltd; Dr Mere Roberts, a director of the Institute of Environmental Science and Research Ltd; Tem Hall, deputy chair of the New Zealand Forest Research Institute Ltd; Professor Ng\u0101tata Love, a director of New Zealand Post Ltd, and Witi Ihimaera-Smiler, a director of Learning Media Ltd\u2014and that is to name but a few. The great thing is that this is a sample of much, much more to come. We have a wealth of talent out there in governance and in leadership, which this bill demonstrates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EWe believe that the bill reflects the desire for cooperation, in that it will prevent AgriQuality Ltd from providing export red meat inspection services. It would appear to be good business sense for the business case of AgriQuality Ltd not to be in competition with Asure New Zealand Ltd. At the end of the day, the M\u0101ori Party would prefer to see State-owned enterprises collaborate and coordinate their activities rather than compete against each other, with a cost to the Crown and, more important, to taxpayers. It would appear really good business sense to maximise the commercial and non-commercial ownership benefits of both entities. If they were private enterprises, then I would probably agree with Shane Ardern in regard to competition, but they are not. So merging AgriQuality and Asure must mean that there will be more efficiencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIn its most recently completed financial year, AgriQuality Ltd had a total operating revenue of $79 million, had total assets of $54.6 million, and had 750 fulltime-equivalent staff. The needs of stakeholders in the dairy, meat, horticulture, and food industries are central to the New Zealand brand. The proposal to merge AgriQuality and Asure will now mean a far more effective surveillance and monitoring of food, from the paddock right through to the shop shelf. In the interests of safe and wholesome food, for opportunities for our future export markets, and for the sense of confidence we have in M\u0101ori as successful managers, governors, and directors, we are happy to support this bill at its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022427441bf842847688f7ff5ce89d70bfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022427441bf842847688f7ff5ce89d70bfe\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future will be supporting the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill, at least for the first reading and referral to the Commerce Committee, on which I serve as deputy chair. The whole question of assurance, particularly with regard to New Zealand\u2019s meat export products, probably takes on an added significance today compared with the recent past. The development of new technology is one of the reasons for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI remember when the House was debating very vigorously the microchipping of dogs about a year ago. At that time, I attended a meeting in Hamilton where vets were saying to farmers that it was necessary for New Zealand to microchip cattle and other animals that produce red meat, because our international markets demand the ability to trace a particular cut of meat from the plate of the consumer, whether in France, Britain, or elsewhere, right back to the exact animal it came from. That has happened because of the way in which mad cow disease and other transmitted diseases have been highlighted, and the consciousness of consumers today who want to be assured that the products they consume are safe to eat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe spotlight is also on the question of carbon miles, I think it is, which is the amount of carbon used to send meat from New Zealand, for example, to export markets in Europe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022863b15689a794641afa1291b552ad549\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CFood miles\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be8b8a1b7791474aaaebdc7609eab464\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member very much; I knew I had the term slightly wrong. I think that is a smokescreen. New Zealand will successfully defend itself, I have no doubt, because we will be able to demonstrate exactly the amount of carbon used in producing meat in New Zealand versus the amount used by our major competitors overseas. In that regard, we have the very temperate New Zealand climate on our side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI say, though, that this bill highlights some problems for United Future in respect of the present arrangements for State-owned enterprises. Let us not forget that the shareholders of these two State-owned enterprises are the people of New Zealand, and under a normal corporate model the shareholders of a company are its proprietors. So the reality for both AgriQuality Ltd and Asure New Zealand Ltd is that the people of New Zealand should be exercising proprietorship for these two organisations, and they do that through their shareholding Minister\u2014in this case, the Hon Trevor Mallard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EBut when we come to the State-owned enterprise model we find, as Keith Locke of the Green Party has pointed out, that in some ways these organisations are neither fish nor fowl. They are somewhere in between a truly corporate model and a Crown entity. That is highlighted by this bill, because we find that the proprietor of the company\u2014the shareholding Minister on behalf of the people of New Zealand\u2014is not able to give a directive to AgriQuality Ltd that it should not enter into competitive arrangements and into the patch that is presently occupied by Asure New Zealand Ltd. That is why the Minister has to come to Parliament to get our permission to give a directive to AgriQuality Ltd that it is not to compete with Asure New Zealand Ltd when it comes to red meat inspection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThat says to us that we have something a little bit wrong with this whole State-owned enterprise model. If these were publicly listed companies, a majority of the shareholders could exercise their proprietary rights and give a directive to the board of a company that it is not to engage in certain activities and it is to engage in others. But this is not able to be done under the present State-owned enterprise model. That is why United Future believes that the model itself needs to be changed in the interests of better outcomes for the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnited Future is proposing a suggestion that is different from any other party\u2019s suggestion, to my knowledge. We think it is time to sell down a 40 percent interest in State-owned enterprises to mum and dad investors but to have the Crown retain the other 60 percent, and thereby always ensure that the Crown will be in control of State-owned enterprises. I add that in respect of the 40 percent interest sold down to mum and dad investors, and, for example, the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, those shareholders would have the ability to onsell to non-resident shareholders only up to a maximum of 20 percent of the total shares in a State-owned enterprise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn other words, the model we propose has the safeguard that 80 percent of the ownership of State-owned enterprises would continue not only to be controlled from New Zealand but also to be owned by New Zealanders. I should add that in the case of Television New Zealand we would raise that to 90 percent. But that would actually change the face of the whole State-owned enterprise model quite dramatically. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe could adopt a genuine, if you like, public company model, where directors would be elected by all the shareholders of the company, and would not be appointed by the Minister and the Government of the day. Indeed, the Crown would have a 60 percent say, but potentially a 40 percent interest would be the view of other shareholders who are independent of the Crown. I know for a fact that State-owned enterprises would welcome that change, because the confidential survey undertaken by Victoria University about 18 months ago indicated that even the directors of State-owned enterprises themselves say that a major problem they see with the model is political interference. Ministers cannot direct State-owned enterprises what to do, but, of course, they can change the composition of the board, which I guess is another way of sanctioning various activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe believe that this change would give a far better outcome, not only for these two State-owned enterprises but also for others. We would then see boards comprised of people who were elected at an annual general meeting and it would be more representative. It would depoliticise the appointment process to some extent, and we think that is all very positive for State-owned enterprises, not to mention the fact that they would also start to answer to the financial disciplines that would accompany the listing of those 40 percent shareholdings on the New Zealand Exchange. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAlso, of course, I cannot overemphasise the importance that we attach to building a genuine ownership model in New Zealand. In this economy an unusually large share of all commercial activity is Crown-owned. The debate that has gone on for years between the two major parties about 100 percent Crown ownership versus 100 percent privatisation has, I think, become counter-productive, and we need to look for a new and different way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EHaving said that, the other provisions of the legislation seem to be quite sound\u2014that we should look to the possibility of merging these two State-owned enterprises into one single seamless organisation. That makes sense to us. I liken it a little bit to the Customs Service. I do agree wholeheartedly, in normal circumstances, with the idea of competition to get costs down, but we do not have a competitive arrangement for customs because it is an official function. On the other side of the ledger, when we are giving assurance to our export markets and overseas consumers, competition does not make a lot of sense there either, because those involved are carrying out something that is official in nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI think Keith Locke made the point correctly that we need to put quality assurance at the top of the list in this area, otherwise our getting this wrong has the potential to jeopardise our entire meat exports. That, of course, is something that none of us can take a risk with. So with those remarks, I again signal United Future\u2019s support for the bill\u2019s referral to the select committee and for the compressed time frame in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u002287a90f3b211e46719b143e98508e34de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287a90f3b211e46719b143e98508e34de\u0022\u003EHon LUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, talofa lava, and warm Pacific greetings. It is my pleasure, indeed, to stand and speak in support of the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill. This bill makes for good common sense and is very well supported by the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EI wish to make a couple of points about it. The bill provides for a possible merger between the two State-owned enterprises\u2014AgriQuality and Asure New Zealand. The bill does not force a merger or require a merger; it simply enables a merger between the two State-owned enterprises to take place. It is good to see that both AgriQuality and Asure New Zealand have both agreed to work together to explore the possibility of a merger. R\u0101kihia Tau, Chair of AgriQuality, has expressed his company\u2019s strong support for this initiative, and Asure New Zealand has also agreed to cooperate. In a recent media statement, the Chair of the board confirmed Asure\u2019s willingness to cooperate fully in the preparation of a business case to assess the economic viability of the merger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EUnions also support the bill, and, as my colleague Maryan Street said, the Public Service Association, which represents meat inspectors employed at Asure and staff at AgriQuality, says that the benefits of a possible merger to union members and the taxpayer are significant. It is really heartening to see the two State-owned enterprises and the union in agreement at such an early stage, as this Labour-led Government prefers to see State-owned enterprises collaborating and cooperating together where they can, instead of competing with each other and spending taxpayers\u2019 money to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThe bill will also prevent direct competition between the two State-owned enterprises and companies in delivering export red meat inspection services. Our Labour-led Government is committed to value for money and value for people, and to competing in the global market to maximise gains for New Zealand quality product, quality service, and quality business. That is the Kiwi way. That also feeds nicely into an important provision of this bill. It authorises shareholding Ministers to issue a direction to AgriQuality to prevent it from providing export red meat inspection services. It is very important that the interests of the wider public and the sector are represented, and this bill allows shareholding Ministers to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EIf in the future it is seen as viable, and AgriQuality and Asure merge, there will be many benefits for taxpayers and the sector. As outlined earlier by our Minister for State Owned Enterprises, Trevor Mallard, there will be cost efficiencies from having a single national provider. There will be improved integration of national biosecurity capability, which is a point not to be missed, I might add, given the increased vulnerability of New Zealand and other nations to breaches in biosecurity in today\u2019s interdependent, interconnected, and global world. There would also be the ability to provide better information for consumers about where their food comes from, and additional revenue opportunities from offering quality assurance services to the wider food industry. A single integrated service provider would be better placed against international competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EAgain, R\u0101kihia Tau, Chair of AgriQuality, sums this up better than I can in his recent media statement when he said: \u201CThe possible merger of AgriQuality and Asure would have the added advantage of allowing effective traceability of food from the paddock right through to the supermarket shelf, strengthening access to international markets across the breadth of the supply chain. Any move in this direction will see our reputation for producing safe and wholesome food products enhanced with the potential to benefit the wider agricultural and food industries in New Zealand.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EA previous speaker, Nathan Guy, made many assumptions about this bill\u2014for example, that there would be increased costs with this process, and that competition is good. We are not disputing that. It is also important to have the pragmatic business savvy to collaboratively work out the best bang for our buck for business consumers, taxpayers, and the State. Each has a role to play in order to keep the checks and balances of our respective responsibilities to ensure we get a win-win for New Zealand. It is also important that we support AgriQuality Ltd and Asure New Zealand Ltd\u2019s decision to work together to explore the possibility of a merger and to not make assumptions and pre-empt the process at this stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003EThis is a common-sense bill. It is also an example of a proactive Government working on behalf of all New Zealanders to ensure that where opportunities that benefit the taxpayer and industry exist they are acted on, properly explored, and, if viable, fully implemented. I congratulate my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard for his leadership in introducing this bill, and I look forward to discussing it further at our Commerce Committee. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9d9cf84e381474a93df8cdb027da579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9d9cf84e381474a93df8cdb027da579\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I was sitting up in my office and I heard this bill being debated, and I felt I should come and make a contribution. I do so for several reasons. I am a little confused as to why we are having this State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill. The bill sets out a provision for a merger or a takeover, although that is not actually defined. But before I get on to that I will talk about some important principles that this House needs to engage in before it goes any further with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThere are perhaps two key elements to our prosperity as an exporting nation of primary produce. One is that we can assure the consumer\u2014the purchaser\u2014of the quality of that produce. Ninety-odd percent of our primary produce, particularly in the meat area, is exported. We need to have an unequivocal, unchallenged assurance that the product is safe and wholesome. After that comes a whole range of things about the processing being done in a sustainable way and the upholding of animal welfare issues. All of that stuff helps, but right at the top is assurance. We have had two State-owned enterprises providing that assurance\u2014AgriQuality Ltd and Asure Ltd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIs there an issue that the model we have now has not been confirming, assuring, and asserting the absolute quality and safety of our products? No speaker has stood up and said that is the case. We would hold that AgriQuality and Asure have done it well because they are mandated to do so and because they abide by the Codex Alimentarius laws, which are the meat hygiene phytosanitary requirements that must be met before that assurance can be given. Both companies have done that, so there is not an issue in that regard. The second thing is the supply to the market, which requires farmers to produce lambs at such a rate that it becomes a viable land use option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThat is where I have some difficulty. As I go round New Zealand and talk to provincial New Zealanders and farmers, I hear several cries. But one cry that I hear everywhere I go\u2014and Government members will have heard it\u2014is: \u201CThe cost of compliance is killing us. Everything we do is going up a little bit more every year.\u201D I will give one very good example of that. The Holidays Act came into force on 1 April. The meat companies tell us that it will cost them $1 a lamb. OK, it is a fine principle. We have actually redefined the cake and the workers are getting a bit of a bigger slice, but someone else is getting less. The cost of compliance\u2014that is where it fits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022148949f55f8446bfaa52349286f3220b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: National voted for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255221170a03c4a758a4b4130193c3e97\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is OK; we did\u2014and we are not going to change it. I would just say to Darren Hughes that we cannot keep on doing it. We cannot keep on changing the wedge shapes of the pie; we actually have to grow the cake. We have to do that. I am not arguing, but I am just giving that as an example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EHere we will do something else. We will merge two companies that provide a valuable service into one. I respect what Keith Locke said about the old Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries model. He said that was a good idea but that he did not want it to get too bureaucratic. How do we stop that? We stop it by using a competitive model, surely. Is there another way that stops too many people sitting in offices, fiddling with computers, not being productive, and having high overheads? How can we get the focus on that? It is the competitive model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAs my good friend Nathan Guy pointed out, there are many examples where we have State-owned enterprises competing. We have just had Quotable Value New Zealand before our select committee, and it is now competing in Australia. There is no reason why either Asure or AgriQuality could not go and compete somewhere overseas with their expertise, which is world-renowned. But we are actually putting a fence around them and saying that they have to get into one kind of unit in order to deliver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe principle we need to remember before we go any further is that there needs to be assurance\u2014no question about it\u2014and there needs to be competitiveness to ensure that. The second principle is that there has to be some viability in the producer. Otherwise there is no point in having Asure or AgriQuality in New Zealand, because there will be a diminishing amount of product that will need to be assured. There is a huge question about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI have read the explanatory note. It states: \u201CThe Government wishes to prevent this competition from occurring\u201D\u2014that is, between the two entities\u2014\u201Cas it considers that it would result in a net cost to the Crown as the owner of both AgriQuality and Asure.\u201D No speaker has told us how that happens. No one has come along and said what the reason will be for the cost to the Crown or what that cost will be. Members actually do not know what the reason for this bill is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThen, goodness me, my cousin Luamanuvao Winnie Laban made a speech and said that the merger may not happen. So why on earth are we doing this if it may not actually happen? Yes, it may not happen\u2014I am going to talk about the process in a minute\u2014but I saw when I read the bill that there is a sunset clause in clause 11. This legislation will die in 2 years. I am reasonably astute about these matters, and I think the Government has a plan to make this merger happen within 2 years. I think we can assume that it is the Government\u2019s plan to actually make it happen. I say to Winnie Laban that she may be my cousin, but I think she is misleading members a bit. This legislation will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThere are some other issues about this merger that quite intrigue me. The next point is the methodology by which this will happen. Winnie Laban could be right, because the explanatory note states: \u201CThe Government is also considering the possibility of merging \u2026\u201D. So why are we doing this if the Government is only considering the possibility? These words are just trying to soften the blow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ELet us talk about the methodology. If we go to Part 2 of the legislation, to clauses 5 and 6, we see that under the State-Owned Enterprises Act 1986, as amended in 1988, it is the responsibility of the Minister to issue an authority for either of these two companies to go and do an Asure or AgriQuality kind of assessment, which is the stuff they are required to do under Codex Alimentarius. This bill allows, under the State-Owned Enterprise Act, for that warrant not to be given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESo we now have a very messy style of approach to this, because the Government is to pick a winner. It will say that it will go with Asure or with AgriQuality New Zealand. We do not know which one it is. The bill has a provision for the Government to pick a winner without telling us which one it will go with. National members would say: \u201CHang on a minute. If there is to be a merger, we need a little more detail about how that is to happen.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWhat I also find rather interesting is clause 9, \u201CPart 3 of Commerce Act 1986 does not apply to the merger of AgriQuality and Asure\u201D. Well, does it not apply\u2014or is this clause giving an exclusion for that not to happen? Why should the Commerce Commission not be involved in something that takes competition out of the market when we have a huge cry in the provinces to get the cost of compliance down? I think that the Commerce Act would apply if this clause was not in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESurely, if we are taking away the element of competition in an area where producers are crying out about the costs of compliance and saying that they want competition\u2014and we should remember that there is no issue about the assurance side of it; there is absolutely no issue\u2014then why do we have clause 9, which states that the Commerce Act 1986 does not apply? Quite frankly, there are so many odd things about this bill that I can see why my colleagues have said that National does not want to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EWe have a responsibility to go back to those first two principles that I talked about: that there is assurance\u2014no question\u2014and that there is viability in the industry. This is a very messy bill. We are having this debate on this bill for unspecified reasons. No one in the Government has come out and said that we are being put in a position of allowing winners to be picked. We are excluding the Commerce Commission. There is so much uncertainty on this bill\u2014which has a sunset clause of 2 years\u2014that we certainly do not want to support it. We say that it is a mess and that the Government must do better to protect the producers of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2edc7026bf94590888f3360a2070684\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2edc7026bf94590888f3360a2070684\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call on the first reading of the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill. It has been very interesting to sit through the debate and listen to the contributions that have been made by all the parties. I offer my sympathies to the Hon Luamanuvao Winnie Laban. The member for Invercargill, a National MP, just told the nation that they are cousins. It seemed a very nasty thing to do in the debate. What amazes me about this Parliament is how many people do have cousins on the other side of the House; quite a few have been named. I actually have one but I am just too proud to fess up about which one of them it is. I keep it quiet that our family managed to produce someone who ended up in the New Zealand National Party\u2014my goodness! It is obviously a big country that we have here where members of a family can be on different sides of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe bill is an unusual one because it amends the State-Owned Enterprises Act only to enable something to happen. It is does not actually direct the merger, but, clearly, a lot of work and thought has gone into that in order for it to come to legislation at this time. I am not sure whether we have had a bill similar to this one before. It amends quite an important piece of the reforms from the 1980s and then leaves that provision in the bill in order to bring together these two businesses, if that is what the shareholding Ministers want to see happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EUp until now, of course, AgriQuality\u2019s core business has been the provision of food safety and biosecurity services, and Asure has focused on the provision of export red meat inspection services. They have gone along those separate paths. Then the issue arose last year when AgriQuality signalled it wanted to move into an area where Asure has been working. I guess that is what prompted the shareholding Ministers who own both companies to ask whether it is in the best interests of the taxpayers\u2014the whole country\u2014as the owners to have competition between two things they already own if that competition ends up reducing the worth of both companies. That is what is being looked at here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI do take the point that was made by Mr Roy about the costs; service users of these two agencies do not want to see their costs continuing to go up. I would like to think that maybe there will be some efficiency gains that will flow right through to the people who are having to pay to have these inspection services done. As every speaker has noted, biosecurity is a very important part of our country\u2014making sure our reputation is intact for what is a very heavily dependent agriculture industry\u2014and a sector that, of course, has a world reputation that is the envy of many countries. We have to make sure that that continues to survive in that way. I support the first reading of the bill and its referral to the Commerce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c400b0cd5e24e33b034243377c4c995\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002237d1227a7f1e4e5a89870ec5d07e859b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237d1227a7f1e4e5a89870ec5d07e859b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for State Owned Enterprises: I move, That the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill be considered by the Commerce Committee, and that the committee report finally to the House on or before 30 April 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224ca48f84986741deaf415c392367a05a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000422\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.01 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efc55be3fe224445ab0e3fe16ef1a8b8\u0022\u003EAppointments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c27a0779e98d4b06a6e9fbfa992ffb18\u0022\u003EDeputy Police Complaints Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5c4d14aa0234c4097d51df7b7222363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5c4d14aa0234c4097d51df7b7222363\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That, pursuant to section 8 of the Police Complaints Authority Act 1988, this House recommend His Excellency the Governor-General appoint Judge Michael Henry Walkinton Lance, acting District Court Judge of Wellington, as deputy to the Police Complaints Authority for a term of one year commencing on the date of appointment. The Police Complaints Authority Act 1988 provides for the appointment of a Deputy Police Complaints Authority, who, subject to the control of the authority, has all the powers, duties, and functions of the authority. A Deputy Police Complaints Authority was appointed in June 2005 for a 2-year term, but unfortunately was unable to complete the term, due to ill health. The appointment is in effect, therefore, to fill a vacancy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EAppointment is by the Governor-General, on the recommendation of this House of Representatives. The leaders of all political parties represented in the House have been consulted in writing about the proposed appointment, and I am pleased to advise the House that all have indicated their parties\u2019 support for the nominee. I think, given the announcements earlier today and the pivotal role that the Police Complaints Authority will play in future, the full support of the Parliament is particularly helpful for this important appointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Act requires that the deputy authority is a qualified barrister and solicitor of the High Court, and possesses suitable legal experience for the task. Because of the considerable responsibilities vested in the position and because of the high public profile of the office, the general practice has been to select both the authority and the deputy authority from nominations supplied by the heads of bench. Nominations for this appointment were sought from the Chief District Court Judge. The nominated appointee, Judge Lance, gained a Bachelor of Laws from Victoria University back in 1960, and was admitted to the Bar in 1961. His career from 1961 to 1983 was in private practice in the good town of Wanganui, with Treadwell Gordon and Co., specialising in criminal, civil, domestic, and tribunal work. During that time he was a member of the Wanganui District Law Society and served as a member and chairman of the central districts disciplinary tribunal. From 1983 to 1990 he practised as a barrister sole, specialising in criminal work and, particularly, jury trials. He was appointed a Queen\u2019s Counsel in 1988. He was appointed a District Court judge in 1990, sitting mainly in the criminal jurisdiction and jury trials. He is currently responsible for administering jury trials in the northern region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EBoth Justice Goddard, the Police Complaints Authority, and the Chief Justice attest to Judge Lance\u2019s skills as a jurist and as an administrator, and recommend him as a sound appointment choice. The authority has made excellent progress this year in reducing the number of older complaints on file, and, given, again, the report that we debated in this House a little earlier today, it is particularly pleasing to be able to report on the addressing of those older files and the backlog, because that is indeed one of the recommendations that Dame Margaret Bazley\u2019s report gave to the House. For example, at the end of the last financial year the authority had 219 complaint files that had first been opened in 2003-04. This number has now been reduced to 68. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe previous backlog of complaints had developed as a result of increasing complaint numbers over the years. The authority received additional funding of $550,000 in Budget 2006 to help address this backlog. Some older complaints may remain on file, due to the need for the authority to defer completion until after other proceedings relevant to the complaint have ended. That will always be a challenge in terms of some of the cases before the authority. It would not be appropriate for the authority to pre-empt or prejudice any prosecuting decisions and/or criminal, civil, or disciplinary proceedings that may result from the consideration of the issues by the bodies set up for those purposes\u2014that is, of course, the courts, the coroner, the police, and so on. The authority has opened 943 new complaint files since the start of the current financial year. The total number of complaints on file has reduced from 1,767 at the end of June 2006 to 1,650 currently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe authority is the most independent of all the independent Crown entities. Appointments and removals can be made only on the recommendation of the House, not a Minister. The current Police Complaints Authority, Justice Lowell Goddard, is a High Court judge with a very good reputation within judicial and wider legal circles, and I think that was attested to by members of the House in the earlier debate. The appointment of a Deputy Police Complaints Authority and the proposal in the Independent Police Complaints Amendment Bill to expand the authority will increase the capacity of the authority to deal with complaints and will enhance its independence. The increase in membership will also mean that the authority will be more representative of different parts of the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI should perhaps comment at this point that the duration of this appointment\u20141 year\u2014has been raised with me, and I want to put on record that this simply reflects the uncertainty of what recommendations the House might be asked to consider by the report into police conduct that we have now received. It was deemed appropriate to keep options open, in order to be able to be responsive to that. But, as it is currently positioned, the deputy authority would indeed assume and continue on under the new bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Gallen review recommended that the authority have an investigative capacity of its own, independent of the police, and that was implemented in 2003. The authority now has a team of four investigators, headed by a manager of investigations. None of the investigators are sworn members of the police. The team includes former senior officers from overseas police forces. The team primarily deals with the most serious complaints and incidents, such as where death or serious injury occurs as a result of police actions. The role and processes of the team are continually developing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Government will act on all of the recommendations in the report that was tabled in this House today. I think it is important that we affirm the role of the Police Complaints Authority, and recognise that this proposed appointment will strengthen the capability of the authority in ensuring that, indeed, those recommendations can be quickly and thoroughly acted upon. I have pleasure in recommending this nomination to the House for recommendation to the Governor-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00229bf9276c21954faaa05c92b183491e19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bf9276c21954faaa05c92b183491e19\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will certainly be supporting the Government in the proposed appointment of Judge Michael Lance as the Deputy Police Complaints Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is worth making one or two preliminary points about the suggested appointment. Firstly, can I say formally that the National Party in Opposition is extremely pleased with the appointment of Justice Lowell Goddard. It seems, from her early comments and her two appearances before the Law and Order Committee, that she is someone of some considerable substance and weight who will do an extremely good and fearless job in dealing with matters surrounding the police and any complaints that make it to the Police Complaints Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ECould I also say that we had a wide discussion in caucus today about the appointment of Judge Michael Lance, and the caucus unanimously endorses his appointment to become the deputy authority. National believes that Judge Lance, serving alongside Justice Lowell Goddard, will strengthen an authority that, to be fair, until this point has seemed to be perhaps a little lacking in teeth and a little lacking in the processes to be able to take action in a strong way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe will watch with interest the Government\u2019s proposals surrounding the strengthening of the Police Complaints Authority, both by way of legislation and by way of direction following Dame Margaret Bazley\u2019s report today. That is very important to members on this side of the House, and I acknowledge the Minister Mark Burton for making a statement in a similar vein this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ESo what will Judge Lance bring to the authority? He will bring three qualities that he has shown in various judgments and public utterances over recent years. The first is that he is unafraid, and this is an important quality for someone on the deputy authority to have\u2014that is, for the deputy authority to have; it is difficult to get my head round the fact that the authority is actually a person, and to use that sort of language. In March 2004 it was Judge Lance who presided over the third trial handling the Louise Nicholas rape case, and, of course, it was he who ordered police to pay $20,000 in costs in respect of that case, thus indicating that he is unafraid to pursue justice no matter who appears before him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ESecondly, the judge is concerned that justice be transparent. So he is unafraid, and he is concerned that justice be transparent. It was this judge who in September 2001 said in public court, in the Auckland District Court, that he was putting his criticisms of under-resourced courts on the public record so that people could \u201Cunderstand that it is not me, not the judges, who cause these delays.\u201D We are all aware of the maxim that justice delayed is justice denied. The judge has, in a very forthright manner, voiced his concerns about transparency and justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe third quality that Judge Michael Lance\u2014QC, I should say\u2014brings to the role of deputy authority is that he is practical. The House should be reminded that it was Judge Michael Lance QC who gave Mark Middleton a 9-month suspended sentence for threatening to kill Karla Cardno\u2019s murderer. So he brings those three qualities to the Police Complaints Authority, where he will be under the strong leadership of Justice Lowell Goddard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EHopefully, there will be a speedy resolution of the issue of the legislative framework that the authority is required to work under, as well as of the need for a well-resourced authority. I note the Government\u2019s announcement that the Budget will make provision for some short-term resource in that regard, particularly as Justice Goddard made the point to the Law and Order Committee last week that she sees extra resourcing as being an essential component of the Police Complaints Authority\u2019s ability to do its own investigation into Operation Austin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6b3c714de374ca08740e93bba7c675f\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: That was this year\u2019s appropriation, which I have already approved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233665f87e74845b681b455b5324963e6\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; Justice Goddard made that point clear to the Law and Order Committee last week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is also clear that Justice Goddard is determined that the authority will dispense with what I believe she described as lower-level complaints, and use the teeth of the authority to deal with more substantive and significant issues, thereby, I believe, raising the level of credibility that the authority has in the eyes of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOf course, for some time there has been concern that the authority lacks the real and legislative independence that the public would prefer it to have in order for it to do a completely independent job. The way that the complaints are processed is not always clear to the public, and it is a complicated and lengthy process that ensues. We will wait to see, with some interest, how the legislative proposals of the Government take form. Although the National Party will not commit to supporting those proposals until we have seen them in detail, the Government can be assured that an increased strength and an increased independence of the Police Complaints Authority is very important to the main Opposition party in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is with that in mind that I re-emphasise this party\u2019s acknowledgment of the work Justice Goddard has done already, and also pledge National\u2019s support for the Government\u2019s recommendation to the Governor-General for the appointment of Judge Michael Lance QC as the deputy authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1c538ead106488e970c810796463668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1c538ead106488e970c810796463668\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. There are a couple of reasons why the M\u0101ori Party would support the nomination of Judge Michael Lance. Firstly, I believe that he is married to a woman of Te Arawa descent, and that in itself is a very good recommendation. Secondly, my colleague Tariana Turia says that the judge was born in Wanganui, so she reckons he is pretty good on that account. Neither of those reasons, of course, is enough to endorse his appointment by itself, so it is best that we take a closer look at some of the judgments at key points in time involving the judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe first is the case that was talked about by Simon Power, when in February 2001 Judge Lance presided over the conviction of Mark Middleton. Middleton, as most of us know, faced a jail sentence for threatening to kill Paul Dally, the killer of Middleton\u2019s stepdaughter, Karla Cardno. Rather than imposing a 9-month jail sentence, Judge Michael Lance QC issued a suspended sentence for 2 years, but with harsh warning words to the nation that \u201Cthere is no room whatsoever for vigilante justice and a lynch mob approach is quite unacceptable.\u201D Although the judge recognised the impact of the brutal murder, he called on the court to exercise its residual discretion of mercy. The compassion and humanity shown in that judgment, coupled with a challenge as to the acceptable and appropriate means of being able to address injustice, are qualities that I hope will be transferable to the new role of Deputy Police Complaints Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe second case is one where Judge Lance came to have a public profile when he made history by being the first judge to exercise his legal right to sue the media for unfounded public criticism. Ironically, the comments had been made by Radio Pacific talkback host Mark Bennett, and they related to the same case around Mark Middleton. Bennett described the judge as pigheaded, arrogant, idiotic, overbearing, spitting on justice, and reducing the judicial system to a laughing stock\u2014all because he had jailed Middleton while he was on remand. As I understand it, Judge Lance had had enough of all the attacks and continuing defamation, so he took the radio station to court. In doing so, the judge\u2019s case became precedent setting. It set a benchmark for the quality of reporting that would see abusive tirades result in rebuke. Bennett was instructed to make an on-air retraction and apology for his \u201Cextreme, unnecessary personalised criticism and vitriol\u201D, which was \u201Cover the top\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo here we have in Judge Lance a man who is prepared to exercise compassion while also challenging acceptable boundaries, a man who is prepared to break tradition and take on the media, and a man who, when questioned, still upheld decent moral standards that prevented him from commenting in a like manner to the tirade of abuse he had experienced. Such a man will be greatly welcomed in the role of Deputy Police Complaints Authority. I say also that never has there been a more desperate need for people of integrity and independence, and for influential experts, to be in place in order to improve public confidence in the commission\u2014confidence in the police and in the Police Complaints Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Party has supported both this appointment and that of Justice Lowell Goddard QC as the Police Complaints Authority. We do so, however, only as an interim stopgap measure, as our preference has always been that there be an independent Police Complaints Authority\u2014as mentioned, again, by Simon Power. We have made that call based on the conclusions of the study M\u0101ori Perceptions of the Police, which reported a very strong perception from M\u0101ori that the Police Complaints Authority would be self-protecting and biased in favour of the police, should M\u0101ori bring a complaint against the institution or individuals within it. Even the previous Minister of Justice was aware of the desperate need for independence, in that when he released the review of the Police Complaints Authority, he said at the time: \u201CThere is a strong public view that police investigation of complaints against themselves is neither independent or appropriate\u201D, and as such \u201Cit is critical that there is full public confidence that such investigations are independent.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo I believe that the events of the last few months have engendered little confidence or trust in Nga Pirihimana o Aotearoa nei. The UMR research released last month described the common goals for the police as to be ethical, professional, well respected, and effective. The survey also had as one of its key findings that that was more likely to be achieved if the police were representative of, and sensitive to, New Zealand\u2019s multicultural make-up. Why is that necessary? Well, that same research reported that higher perceptions of levels of victimisation from crime and lower levels of responsiveness from the police were reported by M\u0101ori, Pasifika, youth, new migrants, 18 to 25-year-olds, and those living in Auckland. Well, I think that would take care of about 90 percent of the survey group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhat did the survey conclude that future policing in New Zealand should rely on? Three key points, I think, need to be considered in the likely work programme that will come before the Police Complaints Authority. The three unique aspects of policing in New Zealand identified in the survey were, first, our multicultural makeup as a nation, second, our small size and therefore our close connections, and, third, the fact that police officers do not normally carry guns. New Zealanders like those things about our police, and in the current context where there is so little that the general public do like about the police, one could think this country would be doing everything it could to preserve their reputation. Unfortunately, however, the police had to go ahead and place a lethal weapon in the hands of ordinary cops: the taser gun. And what do tasers do? They encourage a culture of violence in policing\u2014and with every new weapon, the number of violent options available to the police now increases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAs with other comparable data about ethnic targeting, the taser is more likely to disproportionately affect M\u0101ori. In the United States, black Americans are tasered more than twice as much as white people. In Aotearoa the same pattern is apparent with regard to pepper spray\u201455 percent of pepper spray victims in 2005 were M\u0101ori. The M\u0101ori Party has been so concerned about the impact of tasers, and in particular their likely adverse impacts on M\u0101ori, that it has laid a complaint with the Human Rights Commission, and it is currently in progress. Although our case will be heard in mediation, there is one anomaly that I believe is interesting in the light of the Police Complaints Authority. The response to our complaint about the taser gun stated that racial profiling and racially motivated policing cannot be attributed to the police in the New Zealand environment. Yet the national manager for M\u0101ori Pacific ethnic services, Superintendent Wallace Haumaha, has said quite clearly that this country also fits into the pattern of indigenous peoples being overrepresented in the criminal justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAnd so we come back to the one key question that Justice Lowell Goddard and Judge Lance will need to consider with regard to every complaint that comes before them. Why is it that when M\u0101ori are surveyed about their perceptions of the police, when the general public are surveyed about their views of the police, and when the M\u0101ori national manager is asked about his view of M\u0101ori overrepresentation in the system of injustice, their answers are almost identical? There is a perception that acts against the interests of M\u0101ori in any interactions with the police. And conversely, why is it that such strong perceptions about the police are generally denied from within the force itself? We know that police projects involving partnerships with iwi are around, we know that there are almost 50 Pasifika, iwi, and ethnic liaison officers in the police, we know that cultural training is a core part of the recruits\u2019 training course. But as I said at the Police College yesterday in honouring my relation Mita Mohi\u2014who had a new intake of police recruits named after him\u2014in taking up Mita\u2019s name the police must accept some responsibilities. Furthermore, I say iwi agreements like that in Te Aroha amount to nothing if we cannot witness a discernable change in attitude. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo the M\u0101ori Party supports the appointment of Judge Lance to the role of Deputy Police Complaints Authority, and we trust that he and Justice Goddard will make an impressive team. But we cannot, and will not, resile from the course of action that wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B and iwi have long believed in, which is that change will not happen for M\u0101ori in relation to the police until the authority exists as a truly independent body. As long as the complaints process is internal, and as long as the State remains judge and jury of its own action, justice will never be seen to be done. Finally, I end with an acknowledgment of a comment that is frequently used in this House, a comment that takes its source in Lord Hewart from Rex v Sussex Justices in 1924, which says: \u201CIt is not merely of some importance but is of fundamental importance, that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done.\u201D That is what we all hope will be visible with the new Police Complaints Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3d05cb1b27f41ccb0e48247040eeb0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3d05cb1b27f41ccb0e48247040eeb0d\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to, like other members, support the appointment of Judge Lance as Deputy Police Complaints Authority. Members have spoken about the many reasons Judge Lance makes a very good appointee. Unlike some members, such as Mr Borrows, I am not a lawyer and do not hobnob with judges. I do not know them all by first name or know all their histories. So, like some other members, I had to google. What I found on the public record was an impressive account of independent thought and forthrightness, qualities which other members have referred to in relation to Judge Lance. So the Green Party is very happy to endorse this appointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI have to ask, though, what Police Complaints Authority we are appointing him to. Because, as members know, this House has been waiting for some time for the progression of the Independent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill. The Government said it was waiting for Dame Margaret Bazley\u2019s report on police conduct before progressing this bill. Other members and I have had occasion to ask, given that the report has been so delayed, whether it would not have been better to just go ahead and progress the bill, then review it after the report was finished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWell, now the report is finished, and it is a very good and important piece of work, as well. I think it is now time for us to start asking the Government when we are going to see the Independent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill actually progress through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI raise the issue because it is important to reflect on what job Judge Lance is being appointed to, a Police Complaints Authority or an Independent Police Complaints Authority, and whether we are talking about independence in name or in practice. The Minister Mark Burton repeated the assertion that the fact that appointments to the authority are made by the Governor-General on a recommendation of the House of Representatives reflects the constitutional importance of the role and the need to emphasise the independence of the role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EBut, of course, as with so much of the Police Complaints Authority, there is a danger that we swap the appearance of independence for the reality. I think it is worth reflecting on whether it is the appointment process or the capacity to actually do independent investigations that is important. It is pretty clear that the Police Complaints Authority has been severely hampered by the inability to do practically any kind of independent investigation until quite recently. That is why the Green Party has welcomed the Government adding additional resource to the authority to allow some independent investigation to be conducted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIn that context we welcome Judge Lance\u2019s appointment as deputy authority, in the hope that the Police Complaints Authority is able to demonstrate a more genuine independence. As I say, members have already referred to Judge Lance\u2019s history in demonstrating independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EDuring his speech the Minister Mark Burton referred to the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct. I would like to touch on a couple of things in the report that are relevant to this appointment, to the context of this Parliament, and to the wishes of this Parliament. I think I am reflecting the views of other members fairly when I say the desire of this Parliament is to see a Police Complaints Authority that is willing to bare its teeth when necessary when it comes to investigating and holding the police to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EAs a minor example, one of the things that is highlighted in this inquiry report is the statutory requirement for the police to notify the authority of any complaint received from a member of the public as soon as practicable, or, if the complaint is of a serious nature, as soon as possible. The reports states: \u201C\u2026 I would consider that it would be appropriate for the PCA to be notified within one week \u2026\u201D. Over the page\u2014on page 178\u2014we find a list of a whole range of complaints that were notified to the authority well after the fact. The report states: \u201COf particular concern to me was the number of complaints that were notified to the PCA after 30 days. In the worst instance it took the police 518 days to notify the PCA of a complaint,\u201D\u2014when the police have a statutory obligation to notify as soon as practicable\u2014\u201Cand this notification occurred only after the complainant had made a third complaint about the same officer.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIn another instance the Police Complaints Authority was not notified of a complaint until after the police investigation had been completed. The interesting thing is that far from complaining, the counsel for the Police Complaints Authority said: \u201Cnothing turns on the point in this case, because in any event, even if notification had been promptly given \u2026 the PCA \u2026 with its usual and necessary practice would inevitably have deferred any action on the file until the Police investigation \u2026 was complete.\u201D So the counsel said that it did not matter that the authority was not told until after the investigation had been completed, because it would not have made any difference, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThat demonstrates the absolute inadequacy we have had from the Police Complaints Authority. I do not entirely blame the members, because there have been resourcing issues, but some of it does come down to the need to have a Police Complaints Authority that is willing to bare its teeth and hold the police to account. I certainly hope, along with other members, that the new team of Justice Goddard and Judge Lance will demonstrate that willingness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to touch on in regard to this inquiry report are the changes to the Police Complaints Authority proposed by the police. Given that we are looking at an Independent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill\u2014which is stuck somewhere in the depths of the labyrinthine processes of this Parliament\u2014it is interesting that the police themselves proposed to this inquiry that primary responsibility for resolution of serious complaints should shift from the New Zealand Police to the Police Complaints Authority. The police envisage the Police Complaints Authority assuming oversight of the investigation of less serious complaints and conducting many more investigations in its own right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe police have also proposed to remove the secrecy provisions to allow the Police Complaints Authority to take a significantly greater role in the investigation of complaints against members of the police. At the moment investigations by the Police Complaints Authority are hampered by the fact that anything it finds cannot be used in any criminal or disciplinary proceeding. That means that if a serious complaint is made, the Police Complaints Authority backs off until the investigation is completed so that it does not interfere or contaminate the evidence. Although the authority has said that that is OK because the more serious a complaint is the more review and oversight it will give it, the reality is that the more serious a complaint is the less oversight there is, because there is more need for the authority to back away from any involvement in the case. The police themselves are suggesting that those secrecy provisions be done away with, and this is something that the Green Party has raised on numerous occasions, as well. It just seems incredible that there is this secrecy provision, so that either investigations are doubled up\u2014which they are\u2014or the Police Complaints Authority backs away from any oversight of those investigations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EInterestingly, the Police Complaints Authority has opposed those changes\u2014or, at least, it did when this report was being written\u2014as did the New Zealand Police Association. The Police Association said that the Police Complaints Authority \u201Cacts effectively as a \u2018review authority\u2019 or an \u2018appeal authority\u2019 \u201C, and that the suggestion being put forward by the police was being opposed because of \u201Cresourcing and the effective removal of the PCA\u2019s appellate and review functions vis-\u00E0-vis the Police.\u201D Again, I question whether we want another appeal or review process. I think we really want a credible first-complaint investigation. Actually having the first investigation carried out independently and credibly by an independent authority will ensure that investigations are properly done\u2014not having an appeal process and oversight at second or third hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe very last point I would make is in regard to concerns about resourcing. In regard to the issues that would raise, the Green Party has proposed on numerous occasions to join the Police Complaints Authority with an independent prison inspectorate, to allow the development of an investigative capacity across those two bodies, and also to allow the Police Complaints Authority not just to investigate complaints reactively but to proactively identify potential areas of systemic abuse and corruption and investigate them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4cc914b04f442129d581dd1aa070258\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4cc914b04f442129d581dd1aa070258\u0022\u003ECHESTER BORROWS (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to add my voice to endorse Judge Michael Lance as the Deputy Police Complaints Authority. As others have done, I have researched the pedigree, done the google, and made a couple of phone calls, as old investigators tend to do, and I find that Judge Lance was raised in Waverley, later practised law in Wanganui, and was a partner at Treadwell Gordon and Co. As a criminal lawyer working in and around Wanganui and South Taranaki he was somebody who was held in very high regard in respect of his presence in the courtroom and his ability to cut to the chase in respect of criminal trials. He also had a broad experience not only in criminal trials but also in courts martial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ELater on, when he left Treadwell Gordon he became a barrister, then a Queen\u2019s Counsel, and was later appointed as a District Court judge. He was the executive judge, criminal trials. I think it is incredibly important when we are looking at a Deputy Police Complaints Authority that he has a knowledge of the criminal law and brings that expertise with him. For instance, we have had some high-profile Police Complaints Authority investigations in the past. If there were another incident such as that which occurred at Waitara some time ago, or if there were some other police shooting somewhere, Judge Lance would be in a position to jump straight in and fully investigate such an incident, and would be seen to be completely independent in doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EI think that on today of all days, what the public are calling for from the Police Complaints Authority is fierce independence. As I mentioned earlier today, the New Zealand Police is one organisation in which all of New Zealand must have complete faith, so restoring that faith is significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned, Judge Lance sat on the third trial in the Louise Nicholas rape complaint against three police officers and he made some very telling comments in respect of the way in which the police handled initial complaints, principally Detective Inspector John Dewar, and I want to read out one small portion of what he said: \u201C \u2018I am of the view the failure to record and detail these allegations was not only remarkable, it was utterly incredible,\u2019 Judge Lance said in his decision granting costs against the police. \u2018After all, here was an experienced detective inspector investigating allegations of serious sexual offending. During his interview with the complainant, he is told of allegations of potentially serious sexual offending by three other named and current serving police officers. Such disclosures should have triggered alarm bells that would have permanently silenced Big Ben, no matter how vague in terms of time and event.\u2019 \u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f1453f8-c44e-4ce6-b699-64d600322276\u0022\u003ESo the judge has made it quite plain, not only in awarding $20,000 court costs in that instance, but also on a number of other occasions when he granted stays of prosecution because of a lack of police adherence to police policy, that he is prepared to take hard decisions, prepared to carry the flack for those, and will remain fiercely independent as the Deputy Police Complaints Authority. I believe he will add to the mana of the office of the principal Police Complaints Authority, Judge Goddard, and I look forward to the confidence they will be able to give the New Zealand public in their roles with the Police Complaints Authority. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5e7a39d191e4d8e977460a37747ef3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5e7a39d191e4d8e977460a37747ef3d\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call on behalf of New Zealand First to endorse, as all other previous speakers have, the appointment of Judge Michael Henry Walkinton Lance as deputy to the Police Complaints Authority. We note that the appointment is only for a 1-year term. Although explanations have been given for that, our view in New Zealand First of the Police Complaints Authority office is that it is seriously under-resourced, it is seriously under-staffed, and it does not have the investigative capabilities that are required to give confidence to the investigations and the reviews that it conducts. In time\u2014in fact, in a short time\u2014we would see a distinct need to go with and even be bolder than the recommendations of Justice Goddard in the strengthening and boosting of the Police Complaints Authority, and in having the appointment of such people as Judge Michael Lance on a longer-term basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI will just cover a couple of things. The honourable member Nandor Tanczos has espoused the Greens\u2019 position in respect of the Police Complaints Authority quite well\u2014in fact, I heard a good lump of it while I was at my desk. I say that New Zealand First does not just support that view but endorses it, and it would go further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWith the release of the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct today\u2014and I gather that many members of this House will still be wading their way through that document\u2014most of us have read the executive summary and the recommendations, in particular the 12 recommendations that pertain to the Police Complaints Authority, and most of us would endorse those. New Zealand First is of the view that given the seriousness of these allegations, and the serious degradation of police standards during a particular era that will forever be a blot on the history of this nation in terms of law enforcement, there is a need to go further than has been recommended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI can say to the House that in some discussions held already via the select committee process, we have had the opportunity to talk with Justice Goddard and to test the views of members of Parliament as to the possibility of making the office of the Police Complaints Authority into a commission, affording it the status of an Office of Parliament, and making the appointment of Commissioner for the Police Complaints Authority an Officer of Parliament. The reason we have come to this conclusion is that there is nothing more valuable in the maintenance of law and order, and of a civil society, than a completely reliable, corruption-free, law enforcement arm\u2014that is, the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe powers of the police, the judiciary, and Parliament are all separated for very good reasons. That separation of powers gives us the democracy and the freedom that we enjoy as a nation and as citizens of this nation. But, of course, if one of those pillars of our society is undermined in any way, or if the public should lose confidence in one of those pillars, then we run the serious risk of degrading the quality of our democracy and thereby undermining those things that are fundamental to our having a civil society. When we degrade the institutions to that stage, we can hardly be surprised when we find we have anarchy, lawlessness, and vigilantes operating freely on our streets. That is something that no one wants. The guarantee that citizens will not take the law into their own hands and that citizens will trust in the system comes from the confidence that they have in that system and in all the processes and procedures by which they might see citizens prosecuted or their wrongs redressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt seems to us in New Zealand First that we need to give the office of the Police Complaints Authority a higher level of status. We need to give it a higher level of authority. We need to make it absolutely, patently clear that it is an autonomous body, that it stands alone, and that it is answerable to nobody\u2014specifically, not to the Ministry of Justice and, in particular, not to the police. It is most important that justice not only be done but also that it be seen to be done, and the New Zealand nature would require that it is seen to be done fairly and honestly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe hate to say it, but this report, we believe, gives us a new opportunity to review the current systems and structures we have, and to ask ourselves a simple question: is this as good as it could be, or should be? We would ask the House and the parties present here today to consider our suggestion. I most definitely have listened on a number of occasions to the suggestion from Nandor Tanczos and the Green Party about combining the prison inspectorate and the Police Complaints Authority into one body. We would say that the Police Complaints Authority needs to be an Office of Parliament, it needs to be answerable to Parliament only, it needs to be resourced, and it needs to have the investigative capacity to be able to take inquiries or complaints from a first-principles basis\u2014that is, not simply from a basis of reviewing an investigation done by the police into themselves but from a basis of examining the quality of the investigation under review and of determining whether they see the need to go back to first principles and reinvestigate the entire case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI can also say that this is not a request we make purely on the basis of what is contained in this report in respect of the totally unacceptable conduct of certain police officers around this country over the last 20-odd years. Our position also comes about as a result of our concern over the way in which police officers are disciplined. It is interesting to again note the comments and recommendations from Dame Margaret Bazley as to how the disciplinary procedures and methods operating within the police force have become archaic and outdated, and need restructuring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that this is borne out when I look at a couple of cases in particular that I know have been before the Police Complaints Authority. One of those cases, which involves a police officer down in Christchurch, is still before the authority. The police officer in question has been suspended for coming up to 3 years, despite his assertions that he was innocent of the charges brought against him by the police, and despite the fact that he ended up in court, and that Judge Erber threw the case out and then set about lambasting the police investigative procedures. That in itself tells us in New Zealand First that not only should we be holding police accountable for actions or conduct that is clearly wrong, illegal, and inappropriate but also we should be providing a system and mechanism by which officers who are accused have those accusations dealt with swiftly, speedily, and in accordance with what we consider to be acceptable processes of justice. To have a police officer\u2019s family in Kaiapoi hung out to dry for 3 years is totally, absolutely unacceptable. To find that the judge, as a consequence, has thrown the case out is even more unacceptable. It brings into question the police hierarchy in Canterbury itself and its own systems and procedures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI think that the only way we can guarantee a fair go for victims, for those who are alleged to have committed crimes, and for the police themselves is for that responsibility to be vested in the Police Complaints Authority, and for the authority to be given the powers and resources to enable it to investigate thoroughly all allegations brought to it from the basis of first principles. We would again say that we will be having discussions with the Minister about a proposal to have this office be made an Office of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ca03d26073849a4857a362b6d9d8303\u0022\u003EJustices of the Peace Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd3f8021ebb246c98f4c002dcbb9998e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f740d6ff86e24af99bed0b1e9f0cdf1c\u0022\u003EPart 1  Miscellaneous amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a07516bfc7b248dd9126334d99c4ba28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a07516bfc7b248dd9126334d99c4ba28\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this very important legislation, which National has supported right through from the first reading, back on 19 July last year, and the second reading. We are now supporting it in the Committee stage, and will be supporting it at the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EPart 1 refers to the appointment of justices of the peace and their continuing in office. One of the concerns that has surprised me over the years that I have dealt with is self-promotion. People in the community will ring up and say that they are interested in becoming a JP. When one questions them and asks why they want to do that, they say they are retired and have the time to put into it. But when one sits down to see what their motivation really is, one sees that it is not necessarily about serving the community but more about saying that they are a JP and having that honorific behind their name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOn occasions, however, there are shortages of JPs. I mentioned in the second reading someone I know very well who is a JP and who no longer lives in the same rural district. Another person who was a JP in that district had died, and a third person had been a JP for about 5 years and was not prepared to do anything at all. That rural community was not being serviced, and that made it very difficult to have continuity and for that community to access the services that JPs are required to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOne of the aspects of this bill that I fully support is that justices will undertake training before they are actually appointed and gazetted. That will streamline the process considerably. A number of JPs\u2014in fact, the registrar gave me some information about that and it is about 500 or 600\u2014are not members of any justices association in the country. There is no requirement at the present time for them to undertake any training. In Matamata, where I have been the president of the local branch for a number of years, we have undertaken training on a regular basis so that local justices have an opportunity to be up to speed with all the legislation and, more important, the practical aspects of being a ministerial JP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhen 500 to 600 JPs are not members of any justices association, it makes it very difficult to have some continuity and some acceptable standards. It is not an onerous task to become a JP if one meets the requirements and there is a need. If one can ascertain that there is a need in a community for another JP, that is great, but in many cases there is not. I had someone ring today wanting to nominate someone. I said that if that person showed me a need in the community, I would look to support that nomination. Unless that can be done, then I am afraid we are often talking about self-promotion. I see heads nodding on the other side of the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAnother thing that I think is important as a JP is that I always carry the little booklet. It is always in my possession, because in it one can see exactly what the roles are, and one can refer to it and find out what is actually required. If one is going to issue a summons for a defendant or be involved in a search warrant, it explains word by word what to do and how to go about that. So I always carry that in my bag, and on numerous occasions over the years it has been very, very useful to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EOf course, most JPs get involved only in witnessing documents. That role is probably very straightforward. Other duties are to take statutory declarations and oaths of allegiance. Probably not many JPs would issue search warrants, but on occasion that happens. JPs issue summonses and warrants to arrest, and also, sometimes, if the Minister wants someone to, they can be involved in citizenship ceremonies. So, all in all, JPs are a very valuable community asset. They have earned prestige and are well respected in the community and they carry that with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn the area of training, I think this bill goes a long way to making sure that justices are brought up to speed. JPs must do that training before they are gazetted. I will quote from a submission that was made to the Law and Order Committee. I did not sit on the select committee, but I can identify with this case, and I think it is really worth mentioning it here. A 62-year-old woman who presented herself for training did not cope well with the course. She had three private training sessions, a further round of training with another induction group, and completed a CD-ROM training programme. After all this training, some 14 hours, and a lot of one-on-ones, she sat the test, which is standardised throughout New Zealand. At 12 marks out of 50 she failed the test, but she still became a JP. That is the sort of situation this bill will tidy up. We are looking for standards and we are looking for integrity in the process\u2014that is very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe other area this bill deals with is the retired status. The registrar emailed me and said that\u2014these figures are probably out of date now, but I think they highlight a point\u2014there are about 220 JPs born before 1920, with 94 of those aged over 90 years. That is a significant number of people, who at that age probably are not really interested in doing JP duties. Having the retired status and the honorific behind their name will show that they have made a valuable contribution to society, and they will be recognised in that way without having to go through the process of any other training or having to be called on for duties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo with those few words I say that this is important legislation for justices of the peace throughout New Zealand. The Royal Federation of New Zealand Justices\u2019 Associations can be congratulated. This has been in the pipeline for a long time, and I know how impatient JPs have been getting in some cases. This bill is certainly a move in the right direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u00220607b452d02f4217b3d667f40626fc01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220607b452d02f4217b3d667f40626fc01\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E In rising to take a brief call on Part 1 in the Committee stage of this Justices of the Peace Amendment Bill, I reiterate and certainly endorse what my colleague Mr Tisch has just said. In fact, he has taken half of my notes from me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EBy way of background, and just for the record, there are approximately 10,700 JPs in New Zealand, and they undertake a variety of duties. Some duties are more administrative than others, such as witnessing signatures and taking oaths and declarations, and some are more specialised duties, such as issuing search warrants or summons warrants to arrest, etc. I understand that about 400 JPs undertake a judicial role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EJPs have a crucial role in our community. They are, and should be, available for a variety of issues and functions. Mr Tisch has already said that, demographically, most JPs are older. We heard in the Law and Order Committee that 81 percent are aged between 51 and 80\u2014and that is only of those who are members of the Royal Federation of New Zealand Justices\u2019 Associations. Not all JPs are members of that federation\u2014in fact, of the 10,700 JPs, only some 7,500 are members, 35 percent being women and 65 percent being men. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIn relation to Part 1, which we are addressing, we have already heard that it provides mainly for, firstly, training\u2014JPs will have to undertake training before assuming their duties\u2014and, secondly, a retired status, which allows JPs to use the designation \u201CJP (retired)\u201D. In relation to training, currently training has been made available for most JPs, although this has been under a voluntary regime. Under this bill, however, training will now be mandatory for newly appointed JPs, prior to taking their oath of office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt is vitally important that JPs do understand the significance and responsibilities of the role they are about to take on, whether or not they intend to undertake judicial work. It is certainly disturbing to hear from some submitters that some of the nominees\u2014and, indeed, some JPs once appointed\u2014simply cannot read and write English to a satisfactory standard. The standard of English required is quite high, as some of the legalistic vocabulary and concepts are unfamiliar to many lay people. They are bad enough for those for whom English is a first language, let alone for those for whom it is a second language. Mr Tisch has already mentioned the appointee who had three training sessions and, even at the end of those, according to submitters, she was unable to perform any of the functions of a JP except to sign her name. It was quoted: \u201CIt is an indictment on the current system that she was nominated in the first place, and that she progressed through the system.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EIt certainly should be easy to ascertain through scrupulous interviewing whether candidates have the necessary literary levels. This bill also provides for compulsory judicial training, and to have that undertaken before the JP is appointed and sworn in. It is obviously too late if the candidate has already been sworn in and it is found that he or she will never be able to perform his or her duties satisfactorily. I have said that most districts do have a training regime in place, but it is important and comforting to know that that regime is now mandatory. Training is current practice, but now at least it is enshrined in statute and is a statutory requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMany associations already have a policy that JPs must attend a number of refresher courses per year in order to be on the judicial panel. With JPs as judicial officers, consistency of standards is especially vital, and this is emphasised by the requirements of the bill, which enshrines what has become prudent practice. It does recognise the importance of the role of JPs in the court, in the specialist area it is. Although it is not new, at least it is now mandatory. It is aimed at maintaining a degree of national consistency, and now it is supported by legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EMr Tisch has already mentioned that JPs can now have the designation \u201CJP (retired)\u201D. To be a JP is a respected and honourable position, and by allowing the designation \u201CJP (retired)\u201D respect is still shown without the JP having to be active and available for normal JP duties. Needless to say, there is a distinction between a JP resigning and a JP retiring, and the designation reflects that distinction. A \u201CJP (retired)\u201D will no longer be able to exercise any of the duties and functions of the office. On that note, I can say that National supports Part 1 of the Justices of the Peace Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00224e6f0b7070894ce19266834907ccb9c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e6f0b7070894ce19266834907ccb9c3\u0022\u003EHon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a call to reinforce\u2014given the unanimity about this bill\u2014some of the comments that have already been mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI will touch first on Mr Tisch\u2019s point about self-promotion. I think, in essence, that his point is valid, although I have to say that prior to my becoming Minister, probably the vast majority of the JPs I nominated were people I did not know. They were people who had actually come forward as community-minded people. I suspect that Mr Tisch was talking about those who are self-promoters in the worst sense of the word\u2014and he is nodding. But there are community-minded people who come forward and say that they want to contribute; they have heard about this thing called a justice of the peace, and they want to know what it involves and how they can contribute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI\u2014and, I know, most other members of Parliament\u2014have tended to follow the set of rules that fall outside the legislation and are directives from the office of the Minister of Justice. These are guidelines that require, for instance, a person to go and get three references, if you will, or letters of community support. I often say to my nominees that they should go and pull a CV together and get as many letters of community support as they can. I think, in essence, that for us as members of Parliament who are nominating JPs\u2014and I acknowledge that the Royal Federation of New Zealand Justices\u2019 Associations has also raised this issue\u2014that goes some way towards quality control checking of the motivations of those who have put their names forward. I do not have a problem with people who self-nominate\u2014those who come and say they want to have a go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EMembers have made reference to the age of justices of the peace, which is a problem. In one respect it is a great problem to have, because with age, of course, comes experience. We have a large number of mentors and leaders in the justice of the peace community who can provide that leadership and training for younger people as they come on. I know that Gavin Kerr, the immediate past-president of the Royal Federation of New Zealand Justices\u2019 Associations with whom I worked closely this year, Alan Hart, the royal federation registrar, and the incoming president, John Falconer, and I are all agreed that we have to encourage younger people and more diverse people in the community, such as those who can speak foreign languages. It is of little help in some ways if a JP is a member of a community with, say, a large number of Korean members, but the JP cannot speak the lingo. There are some in our communities who may frown upon those people of ethnicity becoming JPs, but I think the vast majority of this Parliament\u2014probably the entire Parliament\u2014would welcome it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESo the royal federation, myself, and others believe that there has to be encouragement of diversity and of younger people coming on. We must foster those senior JPs, and ask them to mentor and lead the younger folks through. I support self-promotion but, as Mr Tisch quite rightly says, self-promotion must be for the best motives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe bill deals with compulsory training. It will be compulsory for new JPs to undergo a training course, whether they are judicial or ministerial. One member has alluded to the fact that there are various customs and practices in different associations, and that one association requires ongoing training for a judicial JP. The issue with that, though, is that there is no legal requirement; it is a sort of custom and practice that has been adopted by one association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs we go through this legislation it is worth noting in the Committee that, running alongside this, the royal federation, myself, and the ministry have developed a stocktake document, which is being released. That document lists all the customs and practices that have been adopted\u2014some very good, some inspired, and some downright awful. It will be taken out and given to members of Parliament, and to JP associations and their members. They will be asked to comment on the recommendations. So as we pass this bill we are also looking for standardisation of best practice. I believe that that stocktake document was alluded to in the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI have to say that neither training of itself nor anything in this bill of itself gives a JP association or the royal federation the power of veto over a candidate. The power to nominate lies with a member of Parliament, and the power to confer that nomination lies with the Minister of Justice. This bill does not delegate power to an association to effectively vet or veto. As one member has alluded to, I believe that the training\u2014and there are some famous or infamous cases\u2014will allow some quality control. JPs and the royal federation have said to me that there was one individual whose literary skills were not known\u2014or the lack of them, sadly\u2014until the individual picked up the warrant card to swear the oath. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThere will be joint, robust interviews between registrars and association members that uncover the motivations and highlight the qualities of nominees. If there are issues, they will be able to be dealt with without, shall we say, the embarrassment as under the present system of having somebody nominated, accepted, and gazetted publicly, and then our finding out there is an issue. The issue may be linguistic or literal, but effectively it creates a huge problem and a huge embarrassment. But I say again that though training is compulsory, it does not confer a power of veto or vetting on the associations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ECan I make just a couple of other points. We have talked about the age of JPs, and I will refer to the late Mick Goldsbro, who had\u2014and my officials may tell me\u201460 or 70 years as a JP. At the time of his death he was, I think, the longest-serving justice of the peace in New Zealand history. We honoured him. He was residing in Hamilton and I, along with Martin Gallagher, the chair of the Law and Order Committee, had the privilege of meeting him. He exhibited all the best that is our JP community. JPs are volunteers. They are people who give of their time\u2014the late Mick Goldsbro gave of his time throughout his life. In this day and age of hustle and bustle where there is no longer the 8-hour day or the 5-day working week, I think it is noteworthy to remember for a moment the justices of the peace who have passed away and also the current crop, who every day save a heck of a lot of taxpayers\u2019 money in doing their job, whether it be on the bench judicially or in their ministerial capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIn respect of training, things have moved on. We now have moved into the new era of the CD-Rom; we have the training manual on CD-Rom. We have a purchase agreement, if you will, for services between the Government and the royal federation. Training is no longer a case of going to the crusty, draughty rugby clubrooms on a Saturday afternoon and doing half a day of training. That does not suit some people\u2019s lives, and sometimes the training product that is given is not appropriate. Now, technology provides for a lot of self-education in one\u2019s own home and at one\u2019s own speed and in one\u2019s time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThere was a call to have compulsory ongoing training. The Government does not support that, because with 10,500-odd JPs, I do not want to spend a bucket load of money on training somebody who is out in a region and may once or twice be asked to give his or her services. I would rather, as many of the associations do, target those, for instance, who are doing technical work like signing search warrants, or whatever, or who are on a preferred list because they are active and actively pursuing regular training. I think that is smarter than simply having a scattergun approach, spending a bucket load of money, and having ongoing training simply for training\u2019s sake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI thank members of the House, and particularly the chair of the Law and Order Committee, Martin Gallagher, who have supported this bill. I also thank members of the Opposition and others. It was a slightly more drawn out process than any of us expected, but I think the product we have on the Table today is a bipartisan bill that has the general support\u2014or total support, I would hope\u2014of all members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe point was made that justices of the peace have waited some time for this, and that is true, but I know they look forward to it with relish. They are embarking on the sort of new world order that further professionalises their profession, and far from downgrading any part of the JP community this bill will actually enhance it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think the clause providing for the use of \u201CJP (retired)\u201D after 10 years is very apt. It allows those JPs who have given their all but would like to retain the honorific to do so. At the end of the day that is the only gift, as it were, that is conferred upon many of our JPs, especially those in the ministerial role. They can withdraw their service and retain the honorific as a symbol of the service they have rendered to our community and to our nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6584509f2b74832a075c70ebad1d5a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6584509f2b74832a075c70ebad1d5a6\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I follow on from the previous speakers, who I think have all given a very excellent summary of some of the issues facing the office of justice of the peace. I just reflect that the office goes back hundreds of years, literally to the Middle Ages\u2014certainly to the ancient realm of England, when it was an ancient realm. Originally, the office of justice of the peace was a very venerable institution\u2014and still is. Over the years it has evolved. Historically, English law spread, as a result of British settlement around the world, and New Zealand, as a former colony, inherited, if you like, this particular office of JP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI think the first JP in New Zealand was appointed in the early 19th century\u2014I am sure that the Associate Minister of Justice, Clayton Cosgrove, will be quick to correct me if I am wrong. Virtually with the arrival of Samuel Marsden we were looking at some form of justice of the peace\u2014certainly prior to the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840. If we look across the Tasman, we see that justices of the peace were obviously established very early on in terms of the initial colonisation by the British of Australia. As we are aware, Australia was a series of colonies before federation. So we are going right back to the 18th century in the case of Australia, and certainly to the very early 19th century in the case of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI know that my good colleague the Hon Dover Samuels is listening very keenly and intently to this debate, and the challenge, as he has mentioned to me on previous occasions, is how we evolve this office to suit the framework of our current society and how we not so much modernise but evolve an office that has a very proud, ancient tradition to suit the needs of society today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting issues that Part 1 raises, and it has been touched on, is the issue of lay involvement, or community participation, in the judiciary, whereby good women and men work and participate in the community and are able to serve in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIt was a great pleasure to serve as the chair of the Law and Order Committee that considered this bill, and on previous occasions I have given great praise to the Minister for his considerable encouragement and understanding of the committee in getting this bill on its way. I have had many very warm, good conversations with the Minister. He would say to come to his office after 10 o\u2019clock at night, and he would ask how the bill was going and say he was really keen to get it through. I thank the Minister for his immense encouragement at all times. I certainly hope that I conveyed that to members of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI have already praised members of the select committee, and I think there are three key people to praise. I want to praise a lot of former presidents of the Royal Federation of New Zealand Justices\u2019 Associations. I certainly want to mention Mary Symmans and Bob Armstrong from the Waikato for their historical influence on this bill. There are other presidents of the federation and executive, and I certainly give them particular praise. I previously mentioned Gavin Kerr, who is the immediate past-president of the federation, and I also mention John Falconer, the current president, and the executive team, including Alan Hart, who have impressed upon us over the last 2 or 3 years in particular the need for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EOther speakers have talked about the issue of training suitable people to take up this office. Notwithstanding this bill, I have noted as a member of Parliament that what Ministers\u2014particularly the excellent Minister the Hon Rick Barker and the excellent Minister the Hon Paul Swain, who had oversight of JPs prior to the current Minister\u2014have increasingly insisted on and focused on when a person has been nominated to become a justice of the peace for New Zealand is the need for CVs, personal references, and community references. Certainly, under those previous two Ministers there was very much a raising of the bar and raising of the standard in the Minister\u2019s office in terms of nominations proceeding. In terms of the current Minister, I have to say that my office has had a phone call on a couple of occasions from the Minister\u2019s office saying that I have not provided an adequate CV or that the Minister is looking for a personal reference or another community reference. I praise the staff in the current Minister\u2019s office, because they are doing the job to make sure that all that information is available to the Minister prior to his or her decision on whether to support the nomination of a particular individual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E Lindsay Tisch and Kate Wilkinson have made very good contributions tonight. They also have talked around the issue of training. Lindsay Tisch talked about the example of a person who found some difficulty in coming up to the plate. Hopefully, the personal references, testimonials, and CVs\u2014which, I have to say, have been requested since before this particular bill was introduced\u2014will act as checks and balances. The point Lindsay Tisch made very clearly is that there will be a final backstop if we get that process wrong. The final backstop is that a justice of the peace will need to pass the appropriate training prior to his or her gazetting and appointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThat also raises a very interesting issue that my good colleague the Hon Paul Swain and I have discussed, along with the current Minister and others, which is to make sure that the training and evaluation are robust. This is not just a situation of the people of the federation making the final decision on whether someone passes a training programme. The decision on whether someone passes a training programme has to stand up to good, objective criteria. The final training session has to be subject to good, objective criteria\u2014and it is\u2014so that the people who are finally sworn in as justices of the peace come up to the plate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe other thing I will take the opportunity to talk about\u2014and the Minister has alluded to this\u2014is the issue of the information CD and the really excellent work that the royal federation has been doing with the Minister\u2019s office and department officials in terms of the training package, the information package, and aids for current justices of the peace, in particular, as well as for new, intended justices. I know that the current Minister has spent a lot of time with his officials with regard to that CD-Rom and information package. I think that is really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIn summary, we have a series of steps that make it more rigorous for a person wanting to be nominated and sworn in as a JP. Individuals who are serving as justices of the peace now have an ongoing, developing and, I think, excellent training package\u2014a refresher course, if you like\u2014that the federation itself provides. They are also aided and assisted by things like the CD-Rom, which in my view is absolutely excellent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI will also talk a little bit about why the select committee has agreed with the federation around the issue of the designation of \u201CJP (retired)\u201D. My good colleague Kate Wilkinson mentioned this before. I will just add to her comments on that; I will not be too much longer. This bill is very, very important, and as chair of the Law and Order Committee I am, naturally, very enthusiastic about it. I want to say a few things about the term \u201CJP (retired)\u201D. I know that this particular item has caused Richard Worth quite a bit of reflection. I acknowledge Richard Worth in the Chamber and the great support he has given to this bill. I respect his very esteemed legal career and know that he is very, very supportive of the role of justices of the peace in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe \u201CJP (retired)\u201D designation does two things. First, it acknowledges absolutely those justices of the peace who have given faithful, meritorious voluntary service over many, many years. Indeed, the designation is a way in which they can hang up their plate, and it is an opportunity for us as a community to acknowledge and honour the work they have done. Second, I think that once this bill comes in, the designation of \u201CJP (retired)\u201D will encourage another group of justices to say that they have done their stint of 20 or 30 years. Clearly, what we are aiming for is to make sure that the justices still out there are active, trained, and able to give excellent service to the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI really do not feel I have had enough time, but I will finish here. Finally, I take the opportunity to acknowledge the role of justices of the peace. This bill is a very, very good step along the way, and I look forward to making further contributions to the debate on the other parts of this bill. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 100 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002292e28b69ce1646529c939142c1758e3b\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to provisions relating to discipline and retirement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0d2f1abf8a0468896b5159765cb97ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0d2f1abf8a0468896b5159765cb97ee\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280faa203be7c4bc2be34a0d1031945c0\u0022\u003EDr Richard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Back again so quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c29245b2690412f9616ec398f6b360c\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is an opportunity for, and the job of, this Parliament to go through bills section by section, as we have done with another bill that was recently in front of this Parliament\u2014in the last day or two. The nature of the role of Parliament is to ensure scrutiny. I know none of us believes in the 7-second - type bill or that bills should go whistling through. It is the role of Parliament to give this bill, and all bills, adequate and excellent scrutiny. I know members opposite will be wanting to take a call; I am sure they will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EWith regard to Part 2, I want to talk about the removal or suspension of justices of the peace from office and about the issue of limited tenure. I refer members to that particular issue. There was considerable discussion about it and I acknowledge the role of the Royal Federation of New Zealand Justices\u2019 Associations in giving us advice. It had a view, and there was a body of opinion within the federation, which I acknowledge, of people wanting us to give very serious thought to the concept of limited tenure\u2014which we did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EAt previous justices of the peace conferences I have listened to the president of JPs from Western Australia, where they have limited tenure. That is a very interesting jurisdiction, because it is such a vast state. Their judicial system, without the role of JPs\u2014particularly voluntary judicial JPs\u2014would literally collapse because of the sheer tyranny of distance. Over in Western Australia, as I understand it\u2014and I do not think it is the only state\u2014there is the situation where a JP is literally appointed for a limited tenure 5-year term, then at the end of that term the justice of the peace has to apply to be reappointed and there is a reappointment process. The simplicity of that in one degree is that if someone is not stepping up to the plate, they are not reappointed. If they disappear into never-never land, they are struck off and not reappointed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThat immediately solves the problem the federation talked about of inactive JPs. The previous speaker talked about it, and certainly the federation has raised the issue. The real concern we have is with having JPs who do not belong even to their local JP branch. I refer to page 3 of the commentary on the bill, which states: \u201CWe considered carefully whether to include in the bill provisions limiting the tenure of JPs\u201D\u2014in our case\u2014\u201Cto a 10-year period, but decided not to recommend this. We explored the issues giving rise to our initial consideration of limited tenure, and concluded that our concerns could be addressed outside of legislation. We were also mindful of the financial implications of establishing and managing a system of limited tenure.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E When we looked at this as a committee we asked why, if someone is not performing adequately, should we wait 10 years for someone\u2019s limited tenure process. We also asked whether that was the best way to spend our money, because obviously a process of limited tenure would have a higher cost. We would rather put that money into ongoing training and ongoing monitoring of the performance of JPs. Certainly, if local branches and other groups really have concerns about the performance of a particular JP, then the thing is to trigger the mechanism by which that JP can be removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI commend to the House the revised disciplinary process. I also want to say that although we gave very serious consideration to the notion of limited tenure, on balance we did not think that that was the way to go. I know, as I said before, that it is common in some states of Australia, particularly Western Australia. I tend to agree with the Minister\u2019s view that we look at the training we are already doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00225e68654476624d3d9e69dc9e88e233d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e68654476624d3d9e69dc9e88e233d9\u0022\u003EDr RICHARD WORTH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I sense from the amused smiles of those members on the Government side of the House that we are currently being subjected to something akin to filibustering. The Justices of the Peace Amendment Bill is legislation that the National Party supports. There is no need for the honourable member to espouse the virtues of this legislation, which are well known to us, are well known to the select committee, and\u2014presumably\u2014are well known to the public and to the members of the federation to which the member has spoken. Might we just get on with these events instead of this protracted process of non-advancement in terms of merit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 100 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to clause 8 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5b7553e628f4a4a83b998bba986bfce\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002238022bb1342941879ea3538a521a6cbb\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022882dfc6600134a5b93e91ad8a271540f\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000556\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a22e7dfbf3e4a859e5d8cb36ee839b7\u0022\u003EImmigration Advisers Licensing Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002282980e936cc0405993bc6b66b6fa58d9\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edb9ace59255474aae9fadce693cfe20\u0022\u003EPart 1  Regulation of immigration advisers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223402f4541fd24715b689c224be82a515\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate includes the schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac03be39d98d4ad88c5da1f0fa04d3bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac03be39d98d4ad88c5da1f0fa04d3bc\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I would like to say that National supported this bill during the first reading and the reporting back. I will share with the public the reason we have supported this bill so far. It is because of headlines like the one in the Christchurch Press in December 2006 that stated: \u201CRecruitment company leaves migrants short of $600,000\u201D. A Christchurch recruitment company owed 229 potential migrants about $600,000 after reneging on the refund policy. At that stage, in the advertisement of the particular company, it described itself as a \u201Cregistered immigration agent\u201D. Mary Anne Thompson, who heads Immigration New Zealand, said that because currently there is no authority that oversees the registration of immigration advisers, agents can describe themselves in the way they like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EHowever, with the enactment of this legislation, there is a channel whereby victims can complain. For example, they can complain about registered immigration advisers\u2019 negligence, incompetence, incapacity, dishonesty, misleading behaviour, or breach of the code of conduct. It is because of this that we have supported the passage of the bill up until now, but we are developing some reservations, particularly on Part 2, which we will explore further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe welcome the Minister of Immigration, David Cunliffe, to the Committee, because I have a problem and I want him to take a few calls and share with us the rationale behind some of the new clauses that have been inserted. During the select committee deliberation a new clause was inserted\u2014one we call a restraint of trade clause\u2014clause 12(2). The Minister apparently believes that anybody who has held any immigration \u201Coffices or employment\u201D would not be allowed to be registered as an immigration adviser at any time within 12 months of leaving the office or employment. That would mean that any \u201Cimmigration officer, visa officer, or refugee status officer\u201D would not be allowed to be registered as an immigration adviser in the 12 months after that person had left immigration employment. I think the Minister needs to take a call to explain to the public why he has no confidence in the current employees of Immigration New Zealand. Let us rehearse this again: the Minister is publicly declaring he has no confidence in the current employees who hold the positions of immigration officer, visa officer, or refugee status official. He has no confidence in them; if they leave their jobs, they are not allowed to register as immigration advisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe reasons given are that they would have an unfair advantage, and they might have a close relationship with people who continue to work in the department. I need the Minister to take a call because these two reasons basically spell out that he has no confidence in either the competence or honesty of current employees of, or employees who have just departed from, Immigration New Zealand. He is saying that any immigration officer, visa officer, or refugee status officer would not be allowed to be registered as an immigration adviser. This is despite the fact that we are told that this registration process will be robust, and that if there are complaints there will be penalties for misbehaviour. But the Minister is saying that he has no confidence in the staff and the people who hold those positions. If they finish with Immigration New Zealand, at least for 12 months he does not want to see them operating as immigration advisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESo what are these people going to do for the 12 months? Are they going on to the unemployment benefit or are they going to be taxi drivers? They are not allowed to use their skills. I think the Minister owes an apology to his own staff as to why he has no confidence in their competence or honesty, and as to why he has no confidence in existing employees, who would not treat differently any staff who have left Immigration New Zealand. If those people become immigration advisers, their applications will be processed just like any other applications, and there will be no favours. The Minister should have confidence in the people who work in Immigration New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E The other group of people whom he believes should not be allowed to register as immigration advisers, includes himself. He says, under clause 12(2)(a), that if any \u201DMinisters of Immigration and Associate Ministers of Immigration in the New Zealand Government\u201D have completed their positions, they would not be allowed to be registered as immigration advisers for at least 12 months. It was very clear when this clause was introduced that one of the many former Ministers of Immigration, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, was obviously targeting the Hon John Delamere. But I want to share with the public that the Hon John Delamere was acquitted in court of 20 charges relating to when he ran his own immigration consultancy firm between 2001 and 2004. I ask the Minister to take note of the dates. John Delamere left Parliament in 1999. This restraint of trade clause will never apply to him, so it seems to me that the currency of former Ministers of Immigration is running for much longer than 12 months. If the Minister is serious in trying to stop the so-called problem, he may have to bar those people for life\u2014including himself. Of course, one questions what will happen to existing politicians in the New Zealand Parliament who may come under suspicion for their dealings with regard to immigration issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to the Minister giving us an explanation as to why he has no confidence in his staff in Immigration New Zealand. He may like to explain why he thinks it is effective to bar former Ministers of Immigration. At least, Mr John Delamere\u2019s case has shown the public that Mr Delamere was out of the job for more than 12 months, and was prosecuted for his activities almost 3 years out, from the time he left Parliament. This clause is totally ineffective, and I think it is a slight on existing Immigration New Zealand employees. If the Minister does not think they are trustworthy, honest, or competent, then they should not be in the service\u2019s employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI have an amendment lying on the Table to delete clause 12(2). I am seeking the assistance of other parties across Parliament to reflect on this clause, and to support my amendment to say that it is not effective and in fact is an insult to the existing staff of Immigration New Zealand. I think having a Minister declare in such a public way that he has no confidence in the honesty and competence of the people of Immigration New Zealand is quite devastating for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAs I say, the National Party has so far supported the bill, and particularly Part 1. I do not have too much of a problem with the other part. Firstly, I would like to say let us not pass a provision that is ineffective. Secondly, I say that in fact it is a real stigma reflecting badly on the existing Immigration New Zealand staff. Either we have confidence in the licensing regime that is put in, or we do not, so I seek the Committee\u2019s support for my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00221ac4d0a4d7594ae0a4b15e4ca2a255d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ac4d0a4d7594ae0a4b15e4ca2a255d7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before the next speaker commences, and so that members can take the opportunity afforded by Standing Order 319(4), I want to mention that the Government has issued a financial veto certificate in relation to Dr Pita Sharples\u2019 amendments to Part 1, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 105. Those amendments relate to the establishment and functions of a M\u0101ori Immigration Education Council. The amendments are therefore out of order and no question will be put on them, but that Standing Order affords members the opportunity to debate both the amendments and the veto certificate. A copy of the certificate is on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022649c4b669a1648b5b4f1dda8deac342d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022649c4b669a1648b5b4f1dda8deac342d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister for Ethnic Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this excellent legislation. I do so in two capacities. Firstly, I do so as an electorate MP. Probably every member of Parliament in this Chamber has experienced constituency cases that have been brought to his or her office by people who have been to an immigration consultant first of all. Those constituents have spent a great deal of money\u2014sometimes many tens of thousands of dollars\u2014and in many cases have received no support whatsoever. Documents have not been lodged, passports have been confiscated, and very large sums of money have been asked for. I have experienced that many times in my electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003ESecondly, I support the bill as Minister for Ethnic Affairs. I spend every weekend engaging with ethnic communities. In fact, I was discussing with the Minister of Immigration the other day the fact that two weekends ago, I went to 10 ethnic events during that weekend. I have the opportunity to meet thousands of people, on a monthly basis, from minority ethnic communities. Many of them have had a lot of bad experiences with immigration advisers who purport to help them, often when they are in desperate circumstances, to get residency in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill itself was first proposed when Lianne Dalziel was Minister of Immigration. It has been a fair time in its planning, but it is very important legislation in providing safety for the community. The bill creates a licensing regime for people who provide immigration advice both in New Zealand and overseas. Any person who provides advice regarding immigration to New Zealand will have to be licensed, unless explicitly exempt from that requirement. Immigration advisers will have to meet competency standards and be deemed fit to practice, and will of course be subject to complaints and disciplinary procedures. That is long overdue. A number of new offences are also set out, including one of providing immigration advice without a licence. A new statutory body, the Immigration Advisers Complaints and Disciplinary Tribunal, will be established to administer the licensing regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI think it is important that we are clear in our heads as to what this bill is trying to do. We have heard a few whinges and moans from Opposition members already. Although I am glad to hear that they are supporting this bill, I am disappointed to hear the degree of whingeing from them. I can even hear some barracking while I am talking now. Actually, this bill is about providing safety and security for people who are often in desperate circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI can remember that about 4 years ago a large delegation of members of the Tuvalu community came to see me in my electorate office in west Auckland. They were very concerned about global warming. They were not climate change deniers\u2014unlike one or two members in this Chamber. They had become alarmed that rising sea levels around the low-lying atolls that make up Tuvalu would impact profoundly on their safety and on their homes. They were, of course, desperate to stay in New Zealand. As a result of the combination of their anxiety about environmental impacts and global warming on Tuvalu and their desperation to remain in New Zealand, those people were extraordinarily vulnerable. They had met some rather unscrupulous individuals on the North Shore in Auckland, who charged them about $10,000 each to issue them with false passports. The individuals concerned called them Aotearoa passports and claimed that they would lodge refugee claims on behalf of the people from Tuvalu, to try to get them refugee status in New Zealand as environmental refugees. Of course that was completely hopeless, and their money was taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003ERefugee claims were, in fact, lodged, and of course when Labour came into Government it issued the transitional policy that allowed people who had been in New Zealand illegally to regularise their status if they had not broken the law, if they were married to a New Zealand citizen or resident, if they had had a child born in New Zealand, if they had not drawn a benefit, and if they had not lodged a refugee claim. That group of Tuvalu residents, all of whom were overstayers, would have qualified completely for the transitional policy, but they achieved a double whammy. Not only had they been ripped off by the unscrupulous individuals from the North Shore but their opportunity to regularise their status in New Zealand was removed because they had, unfortunately, applied for refugee status. Fortunately, through the generosity and wisdom of the then Minister of Immigration\u2014not the present one, who I am sure would have been just the same as the then Minister\u2014many of those people from Tuvalu got special directions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00226f89d05237e24fc09397db0a62cda780\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f89d05237e24fc09397db0a62cda780\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I listened to the Hon Chris Carter speaking just now on the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill. He was talking about \u201Cunscrupulous\u201D immigration consultants. I just remind the Hon Chris Carter that it was him, not an unscrupulous immigration consultant, who twisted his colleague Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s arm into allowing into this country a member of Saddam Hussein\u2019s Republican Guard. Now his colleague the Hon Clayton\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca3a8c60e0b4912ae4a6ede7609f5ae\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b5b11d351d4c568daf1b6e651f14db\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: If the member does not know what I am talking about, I can get the file where the department\u2019s notes show that it responded to representations from Chris Carter in letting this guy into the country\u2014a man who has now caused all sorts of problems. The Hon Clayton Cosgrove now has to deal with this unscrupulous character after Chris Carter convinced Damien O\u2019Connor\u2014it must have been Damien O\u2019Connor; it cannot have been this Minister\u2014to let him into the country. So it is not just immigration consultants\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e2f6c3d04ed41ddbf6b63e7a775d2e5\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8354bc6f4c4ba78273019aac105cb6\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to give private information to the public, but I can grab the file for that member so he can refresh his memory. If he wants to do so, I can easily get the file for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIn speaking to Part 1, I want to cover something that is very unsatisfactory about the bill. National has supported this bill, and we have done so partly because we listened to the submissions to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and those submissions from the immigration industry were positive about this bill. National wants to see a system put in place that works well. Again with this Labour Government we are seeing Supplementary Order Papers brought in after the select committee process that change the nature of the bill and would change totally the nature of support for the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf Supplementary Order Paper 104, which adds bits to clauses 16, 24, and 26(1)\u2014all clauses in Part 1\u2014had been in the bill when it was going through the select committee process, there would be a totally different set of submissions on this bill. This Labour Government does this sort of thing intentionally. We see it done too often now. It brings in bills that receive submissions at the select committee, then, after all those submissions have been considered, it changes the bill totally to something that is very different. Supplementary Order Paper 104, in the Minister\u2019s name, will now introduce a levy and make major changes to this bill. Instead of a simple licensing system, we will see a levy system where a very small number of immigration consultants will have to fund a major bureaucratic set-up that this Government is setting up. Those consultants would never have been positive about that had the bill had that in it from the word go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want the Minister in the chair, the Hon David Cunliffe, to explain to the Committee how something as fundamental as a levy regime, and the amendments he is proposing to clauses 16, 24, 26, etc.\u2014and I will go on to clause 77A when we come to Part 2\u2014could not have been part of the bill as introduced. Why was something as fundamental as a levy regime to fund a disputes process, to go through complaints, and to discipline members of the immigration consultancy industry, not part of the bill as introduced? I believe we deserve an explanation from the Minister as to why something as fundamentally important to this legislation was not part of the bill as introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI am prepared to resume my seat so that the Minister can explain to the Committee why something as fundamental to the bill as that was left out of the bill that went to the select committee, to be introduced now, after the public had its opportunity to make submissions on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00229b32266a52fd44b1b3970309d2ea1d28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b32266a52fd44b1b3970309d2ea1d28\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to speak in the Committee stage on the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill. We have had a very passionate contribution from my friend and colleague the Hon Chris Carter, who has been detailing his hard work in the weekends at his local electorate office. Since I have been in the chair, we have had two contributions from Opposition members. Although I appreciate their strong support for this bill, I must say that I found their contributions somewhat confusing. It may help if I address their contributions in order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EMs Wong argued that the 1-year stand-down did not go far enough. In an act of flagrant disloyalty to her former colleague the Hon Tuariki Delamere, she said it would not have been effective in preventing him from committing corrupt practices, because he left Parliament more than 1 year ago. I thought she was going to propose an amendment to extend the stand-down period, but I understand that she has in fact, in a blinding flash of reverse logic, tabled an amendment to remove the stand-down period of 1 year that is already proposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EOccasionally, as colleagues know, the Opposition suggests that foreign diplomatic posts can become a form of retirement programme for former Ministers and MPs. What is clearly the case with the current Opposition is that the immigration advisory industry is the retirement programme for the National caucus. There is the Hon Aussie Malcolm, who is one of the more respected and longstanding consultants in the industry. There is Tuariki Delamere, who apparently mounted a defence in the Golden Harvest Investment and Trust case along the lines of arguing that yes, the money was moved around, but that he did not think it was illegal at the time, because he had written the legislation. That is kind of interesting, but we respect the judgment of the court. Then there is Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, who is quite concerned about this bill because he has his eyes on retirement at the next election, and he wants to make sure there is a job for him to go to. I suspect that there has been some communication on the National benches between him and Ms Wong, to ensure that he does not have to resort to driving taxis, which seems to be her alternative to becoming an immigration adviser. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe good Dr Smith raised another rather spurious but interesting question in conveying his strong support for the bill, which was the allegation that Supplementary Order Paper 104 in my name was a major change that would somehow bring in a brand-new levy. Well, in fact, I say to Dr Smith that I am advised that the Supplementary Order Paper makes no necessary difference at all to the amount that is being charged to the industry. All that it does\u2014and the member asked the reason for the change\u2014on advice from the legal teams, is to make it clear that it is appropriate to split the amount between fees and levies. The fee is for the actual delivery of the licence; the levy is to fund services received indirectly. That is a technical amendment, based on the appropriate definition of fees and levies. It makes no difference at all to the amount of revenue that may or may not be charged. It cannot be very long ago that Dr Smith was a Minister\u2014maybe it is, but it is not as long as it is going to be\u2014so he may remember the Treasury guidelines for setting fee regulations. One can\u2014in fact, one should\u2014charge cost recovery, but one cannot charge more than cost recovery. Within that framework, it matters not to the amount charged whether it is called a fee or a levy; the same amount would be charged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EIn concluding this brief call, I say that it is important for us to recognise why we are here. We are here because ordinary New Zealanders, ordinary new New Zealanders, and aspiring New Zealanders have suffered and been hurt by a few unscrupulous immigration advisers, who give the industry a bad name. They give the industry a bad name, and they actually hurt their colleagues as well as their clients. Now I know colleagues have a number of cases that they would like to relate. I am not going to name one, but I will say that I was at a function, I think it was with Dr Sharples, at Hoani Waititi Marae. A constituent came up to me, described his immigration case, and asked me what he could do. It was clearly a case for which there was no hope. The gentleman concerned met no criteria for any migration category that I could consider, and that was blindingly obvious at the time. But he had approached an immigration adviser who had said: \u201CGive me $1,500 down now. Come back tomorrow with another $3,000, and I should be able to work on this case. If you come back a week later with another $3,000, I think I can pretty much turn the trick for you.\u201D There was no physical way\u2014no humanly possible way\u2014that any consultant or, indeed, any Minister could have got that man through, because he just did not qualify. But that did not stop that adviser from ripping him off to the tune of some $7,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI will speak later about the proposed amendments from the M\u0101ori Party, but I see that the good Dr Smith is reaching boiling point again, so it is probably a good time for me to resume my seat and allow the Opposition to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u002273a44aa3e69f44299117912bbe657184\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273a44aa3e69f44299117912bbe657184\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou kua hui mai i t\u0113nei p\u014D. Greetings to everyone tonight. I rise to follow on from the co-leader of the M\u0101ori Party Dr Pita Sharples and the Supplementary Order Paper, so I will probably go off at a tangent, away from the discussion that has been happening tonight. That is the first point\u2014just to take over from Pita Sharples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe second point is that, as a new member of Parliament, I was taken a little bit aback by the fact that the Government has exercised its right under Standing Order 319 to place a financial veto on our Supplementary Order Paper, which is really disappointing, because we try to take most of these matters that are put before us fairly seriously. My understanding is that the right to move a financial veto is taken up on rare occasions. The last occasion was in June 2006, and prior to that it was in 2004. So obviously the Government takes this particular issue seriously, as do we. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe fact that our Supplementary Order Paper cannot be voted on is really disappointing. I suppose we are happy that at least it can be debated, but the fact that it cannot be voted on is pretty disappointing, and in that sense we are wondering what the rationale is for moving towards this sort of action. Can the Minister perhaps explain at some point why this course of action has been taken up? The rationale that has been presented in the certification, or whatever the document is, talks about costings, and that our Supplementary Order Paper may well have financial constraints or repercussions, and that seems to be the rationale for the \u201Cno vote\u201D on this particular amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe think that money is obviously an issue, which we would argue, but the Minister might tell us about that. Dr Cullen announced in December 2006 that the improved position meant that the country would have available around $1 billion for extra headroom for the 2008 Budget, on top of the $2 billion allowance that was set aside in 2006. He also said that the 2007 Budget will continue our progress in building a unique national identity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOn Budget day the Government announced another big operating surplus\u2014$8.5 billion in 2005-06, and $5.8 billion in 2006-07\u2014yet we are still unable to support a clause that is all about trying to give support to the Treaty of Waitangi. So we reckon that we might have put the Government in a bit of a corner actually\u2014either support the M\u0101ori Party on one of our initiatives, or run the risk of voting against the Treaty in te reo M\u0101ori. So, unfortunately, from what we see, and the Minister might give us an explanation, this is the \u201Cget out of jail free\u201D card\u2014an attempt to get out of a political corner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe reason we put up this particular Supplementary Order Paper was that we mentioned in a number of speeches that the Treaty of Waitangi is the nation\u2019s founding document\u2014a constitutional blueprint for nation-building through relationships; relationships between tangata whenua, the Crown, and newer immigrant groups. So, given this context, we believe that an awareness of the Treaty of Waitangi and its practical implications for daily life in Aotearoa is highly beneficial to newcomers. We hope that the Minister might respond to the view that we hold as the M\u0101ori Party that any moves to better prepare migrants for life in Aotearoa, by having access to well-equipped immigration advisers, is advantageous to all involved, including the nation at large. We believe that nation-building is an ongoing project, and it requires new initiatives to imbed a sense of national identity and harmony in the face of increasing cultural diversity. So the Treaty of Waitangi and a respect for the indigenous people of Aotearoa is one of those anchors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe submitted the Supplementary Order Paper in the knowledge that tangata whenua often refer to the Treaty of Waitangi as being the first immigration policy document for this nation. We mentioned also that Dr Ranginui Walker has described the preamble of the Treaty as the original charter for immigration, and that it allows immigration to Aotearoa from Europe, Australia, and the United Kingdom, but requires consultation with M\u0101ori as the Treaty partner for any variation. Dr Ranginui Walker also argues that the Government has ignored the notion of partnership, by unilaterally deciding who can enter New Zealand without consultation with M\u0101ori. We say that the Treaty sets the scene by which all subsequent migrants and communities can survive and prosper in Aotearoa. In essence, the Treaty is our first immigration document because it enables all others to come here. With that in mind, our Supplementary Order Paper provides for the establishment of a cultural education programme including the Treaty, and basic tikanga and te reo for immigration advisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E Alongside this, it established the M\u0101ori Immigration Education Council to facilitate and oversee the programme. We thought that was a pretty good idea. The council would be an expert council of up to 10 members, appointed on recommendation by iwi r\u016Bnanga. We thought this was an exciting opportunity to develop a cultural education programme that would be a model for all other nations. It gives tangata whenua a real chance to be involved in immigration matters, and this is a call that for too long has been unanswered. We believe that this sort of idea enabled immigration advisers to become proficient in providing a full service to those wishing to make Aotearoa their home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, the key point in submitting this Supplementary Order Paper is in response to concerns from M\u0101ori that immigration policies have been made at the expense of M\u0101ori, without consultation with M\u0101ori, and of unproven value. If we are committed to restoring any harmonious relationship between Treaty partners, we must honour the importance of creating effective and mutually respectful relationships. If we honour the spirit of the partnership explicit in Te Tiriti o Waitangi surely the Government must give recognition to the need to give effect to M\u0101ori involvement in immigration policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe thought that our Supplementary Order Paper responded to that imperative. We are obviously disappointed that the Government has taken a different tack by moving to have our Supplementary Order Paper ruled out of order. I ask the Minister to at least give us some explanation as to why our Supplementary Order Paper has been blocked at that stage, believing as we do that if the Treaty is at the heart of this whole notion of nation-building, surely the idea of having an immigration council based around education was a common-sense idea that would allow the nation, and indeed those coming here, to have a good baseline knowledge about Aotearoa and our nationhood. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe fact that fiscal constraints have been used as a buffer to take our Supplementary Order Paper off the Table does not seem to match with the fact that the Government, even by its own reports over a period of time, says that the money is there. We also recognise that somebody has done some costings. I am not too sure where those costings have come from, but the costing on the certification says $1.5 million per annum, yet there is plenty of money in the kitty from the sound of it. We ask that for the purposes of nation-building, surely that amount of money\u2014and it is a figure that has been put up without too much research, we think\u2014would be a good investment in the future of the nation. So we leave that for someone to take a call on. Kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002269581385861f4885bec7a75320248382\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269581385861f4885bec7a75320248382\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member who has just resumed his seat, Te Ururoa Flavell, for that intervention and say that the Government is sympathetic to the need for migrants to be informed and advised on Treaty issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe Government has taken the proposed amendments by the M\u0101ori Party very seriously and we have consulted extensively with the kaitiaki of tikanga in the Labour M\u0101ori caucus. Unfortunately we do not have provision in the Budget for the expenditure that the proposed M\u0101ori Immigration Education Council would require. But, more important, the functions for which such a council would be set up have already been provided for in immigration provisions, and I wish to give some examples. The following materials are provided to new migrants when they arrived in New Zealand. Listeners will not be able to see these examples, but colleagues can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003ENew migrants get an extensive pack of reading material that briefs them about the Treaty of Waitangi and its importance to contemporary New Zealand society. They are given a booklet called Te Tiriti o Waitangi: The Treaty of Waitangi and Migrants when they arrive. In the Department of Labour\u2019s Linkz magazine there are often articles expounding the importance of the Treaty to New Zealand culture. In addition, when new migrants arrive they are given this pack of Treaty background booklets in their Getting Started pack: All About the Treaty, The Timeline of the Treaty, The Story of the Treaty Part I, The Story of the Treaty Part II, and The Journey of the Treaty. So I am pretty comfortable that a comprehensive set of information materials is made available to new migrants directly when they arrive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EThe amendments from the M\u0101ori Party propose that the advisers are also well informed of tikanga M\u0101ori. Indeed, the bill already caters for this also. Clauses 32, 33, and 34 set out the functions of the registrar and the authority in setting competency, training, and conduct standards. Clause 32 in particular sets out the responsibilities of the registrar, including: \u201C(c) to develop and maintain competency standards \u2026 (d) to facilitate the education and professional development of immigration advisers:\u201D, and to carry out functions consequential on functions referred to earlier in the clause. I wish to provide some reassurance to the Committee, and in particular to our colleagues in the M\u0101ori Party, that as Minister I expect that the registrar will consult M\u0101ori on developing those standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EClause 34 covers the code of conduct\u2014the ethical standards and behaviours required of advisers. The code of conduct will bind immigration advisers to being informed on Treaty and tikanga issues. Again, I expect the registrar to consult M\u0101ori on developing this code of conduct. As Minister of Immigration I will have the responsibility for signing out the competency standards of the code of conduct and I will be seeking to ensure that Treaty and tikanga matters are explicitly covered in that code. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003EI thank the M\u0101ori Party for bringing this matter to the attention of the Committee because it gives us an opportunity to underline what was the Government\u2019s intention in the first place. I think members can see that, quite honestly, a serious effort is already being made in Treaty education. I agree with the sentiments expressed by our colleagues from across the Chamber, and expressed very strongly by the Labour M\u0101ori caucus, that education about the Treaty is non-negotiable, that it is our founding document, and that in many ways it is the glue that binds together the important first people of this land with all of those who have come after\u2014P\u0101keh\u0101 from Britain and Europe, and our newer settlers from the Pacific and other countries. That is the spirit with which we enter into this legislation. It is the spirit with which we seek to build a great nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002275f9db02c71b4f998c2c659cf6c2f777\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275f9db02c71b4f998c2c659cf6c2f777\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to thank the Hon Mark Gosche for his great work in being our Transport and Industrial Relations Committee chairman during this process. Unfortunately, he did not get the call then, but he has been a very good leader of our select committee and it is a pleasure working with him on that select committee. I also thank the officials who are here today. We went through a few technical issues during the process, and the officials were very helpful. They always researched what we wanted to find out and came back with very good results. So I would give a pat on the back to our officials, who did an excellent job in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EHowever, a major cross has to go against the Government again. Once again, we see a Government that changes its mind at the last minute, and that goes to the public saying one thing and then does another in this Parliament. It is a Government that does not care what New Zealanders think, expect, or want. It is a Government that does what it wants to do under cover of night, at 9.30 o\u2019clock on a Tuesday night. This Government does not look forward and deliver for the people. We have heard that this is a technical amendment\u2014that is what the Government says it is. It says that it is OK to do a technical amendment at the last minute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThen there has been the sort of Treasury-Cabinet cost recovery model, which the Government says is the only one we can go for; but in saying that we can only go for a cost recovery model, the Government is denying what it is actually doing in this legislation by putting this Supplementary Order Paper forward. In the Supplementary Order Paper the Government is adding another layer on top of that cost recovery. It is making a second charge on immigration consultants\u2014a second charge that will put many immigration consultants out of business. A lot of small businesses will go out of business. It is the same as what happened in Australia, and it is what will happen in New Zealand through this clandestine approach taken by the Government to change things on a whim under clouds of darkness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI would also say to the M\u0101ori Party that it is such a shame to see a financial veto used at this time. Those members came in with genuine amendments that they had put forward, and to get at them the Minister of Finance came through with a shadowy, shameful veto of a financial nature at this stage. The Government did that because it has no provision in the Budget. Well, the Government has enough money in that Budget to sink a ship! They will go out there and buy as many votes as they can over the next 2 years, but, no, they will not look after M\u0101oridom\u2014no, they will not do that. They have bigger priorities than that, have they not? That is what this Government is about. It is just about saving its soul; it is not about doing what is right for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill had the ability to set up something great for New Zealand. New Zealand is in a region that is growing at enormous rates. We are probably the slowest-growing of the countries in this region\u2014in fact, we are. If we look at our major trading partners in this region\u2014for instance, Australia, China, and India\u2014they all have much faster growth rates than us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022705e366a625341af80684aa4f4314843\u0022\u003EDarien Fenton\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve got more people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b564a02407a84114a222062f32ab3fb2\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: That is the key thing. New Zealand will have a greater population over time, and our population will come from that region. The longer we deny that fact, the longer we will sit here at low growth rates and the longer we will have the situation where we are out of kilter with our neighbours and with our region. In time we will pay the price for that. We cannot insulate New Zealand and then think that it will change and that our growth at 1 percent or 2 percent will be sufficient. Our neighbours are growing at 8 to 9 percent. They have huge populations. New Zealanders need to be competitive in that model, and under this Government we simply are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill would have given New Zealanders the ability to bring in more people who were specialists, and who really wanted to work hard and to build this country. They will come anyway. We had the chance to choose when they came and how they came, and we have denied ourselves that by putting more and more fees into the system, and by shunting those people who are doing the immigration consulting advice to the bottom of the heap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E We are killing off an industry that had the potential to grow our country, an industry that would have picked the best people from our region at a time when we need to do that. In 10 years\u2019 time it will be too late. The best people in our region will not be coming to this country. They will be going around the world to where they can get the highest incomes. This bill could have given us the chance to go out and target those people now\u2014to actually go out there and make the best for New Zealand. But, no, we have denied ourselves that by putting on another level of fees and really crucifying an industry that had the potential to grow our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebc9fbb488974d3cb42d665beefbc0b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebc9fbb488974d3cb42d665beefbc0b1\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I am not quite sure what to make of that speech. It was from one of the bright young stars of the National Party caucus, who had something to say about dark clouds at \u201C9.30 o\u2019clock\u201D\u2014even though it was quarter to ten at night. Nevertheless, I suppose those members have to learn how to filibuster sometime. One would have thought that National had a research unit that would give those members a few notes about what is in the bill. I will talk about that, because I think this stuff is actually quite important. Some of us do work as MPs when we go home from here on a Thursday evening. We have clinics\u2014some of us have them on Friday, some of us on Saturday, some of us on Monday, and some of us on all of those days\u2014and people come to see us about immigration matters a great deal. I do not know about members on the other side of the Chamber. I do not think that the public see National MPs as being interested in the problems of human beings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003ELet us just talk about what this bill does, because for Labour MPs it is really important to regulate this industry and to give clear notice to people as to who can do that and who cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221022c3d692e44a4e8565ad55b256a0d6\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How are we going to help Sunan Siriwan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229458932d886e4b9ea0121e88555f492d\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: We will come to Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith a little later. He has gone very silent in his questioning on this matter lately. One would have thought that in his call he may have wanted to add some names to the area of prohibition. But did we hear anything about that? Did we hear Dr Lockwood Smith questioning why MPs and their staff should be exempt under this bill? No, we did not hear a thing about that. He asked a question a day for a year and a half, or whatever it was, on immigration matters\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219ad2ca4298b465185d1224cce62e59e\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: And now silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022398170bef60c4a1e873086d562a32550\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: He is completely silent. Why is that? Why has he gone completely silent? Why has he not used the golden opportunity, as any decent Opposition member would, to talk about the exemption for MPs and their staff that is in this part? We have not heard a word from that member over there, yet we had a question today on the matter that lasted a very long time. Why is that? Who are those members over there trying to suck up to? That is what I want to know. Dr Smith is forgetting about that immigration issue just like that, after asking question after question after question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis bill defines what immigration advice is. If we look at clause 7, we see it spelt out in pretty clear and simple English. Clause 7 refers to \u201Cusing, or purporting to use, knowledge of or experience in immigration to advise, direct, assist, or represent \u2026\u201D. That probably comes as news to those members opposite\u2014they only sat on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for months considering this bill! This is the first time they have actually read this bill, and I am just giving them a bit of information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe bill also states who is prohibited from providing immigration advice\u2014it is basically people who are not licensed or are not exempt. I have talked about exempt people, and they include MPs and their staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab3bae393ab4e369f35d25635a8b0d1\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: And lawyers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb19d25180e74d3b91a93e93e4081383\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE\u003C/span\u003E: That member over there, who belongs to the lawyers\u2019 trade union, worked very hard to make sure that lawyers were exempt. Most of us were uncomfortable about it, because we have dealt with crooked lawyers as well as immigration consultants. A lot of lawyers actually asked not to be exempt, because they said they operate purely in the area of immigration and should be treated the same as Australian lawyers. David Bennett fought as hard as he could to make sure that crooked lawyers were exempt. Well, we will look forward to the Law Society doing a good job of making sure that those crooked lawyers are put out of business. If it does not do so, this Parliament will have to deal with this matter again, and this Parliament will have to change the law on exemptions for lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EBut I will talk a little bit more about who is exempt. There has been nothing from the people on the other side about the Citizens Advice Bureaux, which do wonderful work in this area for nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Justices of the Peace Amendment Bill with amendment, progress on the Immigration Advisers Licensing Bill, and no progress on the Human Rights (Women in Armed Forces) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20070403dfed0b7105174b928811a38128971b68000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"