"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6a9e333ca8443e4a7617d2408f633a8\u0022\u003EWednesday, 20 June 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ccd08facbc14659a9eccc7a560b7cc2\u0022\u003EWednesday, 20 June 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c439450dcf443639c1d4d6b6fa16270\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228056b3d095c74809abd80ead3e1d564a\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002295acbcba783847569f8980b88e0be519\u0022\u003EOffice of Treaty Settlements\u2014Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua ki \u014Cr\u0101kei Process\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e46cb7b57b94305ab297ff82dd26f2b\u0022\u003E1. Dr PITA SHARPLES (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: He aha t\u014Dna whakautu ki te reta a Tiati Carrie Wainwright i k\u012B r\u0101 \u201Cko te mutunga mai o te h\u0113, ng\u0101 mahi kua kitea e te Taraipiunara\u201D, ar\u0101, \u201Ci te \u0101hua o ng\u0101 whakariterite i waenganui i te Tari Whakatau Take e p\u0101 ana ki te Tiriti o Waitangi me Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua ki \u014Cr\u0101kei, \u0101, ko te mutunga e h\u0113 k\u0113 atu ana, ng\u0101 mahi me ng\u0101 kaupapa here a te Karauna m\u014D te h\u0101tepe me te putanga?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[How does he respond to the letter he received from Judge Carrie Wainwright, that in the process followed by the Office of Treaty Settlements with Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua ki \u014Cr\u0101kei, a process \u201Cmore flawed than any the Tribunal has inquired into\u201D, that \u201Cthe Crown\u2019s policy and practice has been unfair, both as to process and outcome\u201D?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc17468b034e44d6adf80a9daf36179f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc17468b034e44d6adf80a9daf36179f\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs): \u003C/span\u003EKei te \u0101ta whakaaro m\u0101tou ng\u0101 Minita i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 tuhinga i roto i t\u0113nei ripoata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[The statements recorded in this report are being considered by myself and fellow Ministers.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u00A0\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b20d5e35604bfe8d93af9742e78a20\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100 ki te Minita, he aha kei a ia hei whakatika i t\u0113r\u0101 kua kitea e te taraipiunara, ar\u0101, \u201CKo ng\u0101 tikanga hei whakatau tono kei te whakawehe, kei te tino t\u016Bkino i a ng\u0101i M\u0101ori. He tino h\u0113 t\u0113nei mahi t\u016Bkino whanaungatanga, t\u016Bkino taura tangata, ka p\u0101 h\u014Dhonu ki te whatumanawa o Te Ao M\u0101ori.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[What remedies are in place to respond to the finding from the tribunal that \u201CThe process for settling now being followed is creating division within M\u0101ori society that is very damaging to relationships and connections, and affects the very core of M\u0101oridom.\u201D?] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222daf9ae01b434c8b84e1e56bf2a05a39\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: E m\u014Dhio ake an\u014D t\u0101tou mai r\u0101 an\u014D te \u0101hua o te wehewehe p\u0113nei t\u014Dnu. E tautokotia ake an\u014D ng\u0101 nawe e k\u014Drero ake an\u014D te t\u0101kuta nei. Engari, k\u0101re e tika e waiho ake an\u014D ki a r\u0101tou o r\u0101waho te whakatika a t\u0113nei t\u0101ke. Engari kei te whai kaha ake an\u014D te Minita M\u0101ori me t\u0113nei k\u0101wanatanga ki te whakatikatika ng\u0101 take e k\u014Drerotia ake an\u014D e te t\u0101kuta nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[We are well aware that divisions such as this one are longstanding. The concerns raised by the member are endorsed. However, it is not appropriate for those from outside to seek a remedy for this matter. But I, as Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, and this Government, are working very hard to rectify the concerns raised by the member.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022954a36c1ad004f30969faf788b057248\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Government achieved in Treaty settlements since 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f2c16f2a8054c248bcb209e923e11a1\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Mai i te tau 1999 m\u0101tou i whakatau \u0113nei take tekau; Te Uri o Hau, Ng\u0101ti Ruanui, Ng\u0101ti Tama, Ng\u0101 Rauru K\u012Btahi, Ng\u0101ti Awa, T\u016Bwharetoa ki Kawerau, Ng\u0101ti Mutunga, Te R\u014Droa, Te Arawa Kaihaut\u016B, Te Arawa, Ng\u0101 Roto o Te Arawa. K\u0101ore ake noa r\u0101tou e m\u014Dhio ake noa n\u014D te reka o te reo M\u0101ori , \u0101, porohewa i reira. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[Madam Speaker, since 1999 this Government has resolved the following claims: Te Uri o Hau, Ng\u0101ti Ruanui, Ng\u0101ti Tama, Ng\u0101 Rauru K\u012Btahi, Ng\u0101ti Awa, T\u016Bwharetoa ki Kawerau, Ng\u0101ti Mutunga, Te R\u014Droa, Te Arawa Kaihaut\u016B, Te Arawa, and Ng\u0101 Roto o Te Arawa. They have not experienced the sweetness of the M\u0101ori language, even to the stage of losing their hair.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a129926beae4c3d872ae78e6f9318aa\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Is not the Government\u2019s go-slow approach to Treaty settlements exposed by the fact that of the 19 settlements reached to date, 10 were started and completed by National in the 1990s, a further eight were started by National, and the Labour Government has taken just one claim from initial negotiation through to final settlement in 7\u00BD years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2720522197b49c89fff97528e96a27a\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: That point is well taken, but it is very, very interesting. It is very interesting because this Government has been about expediency and trying to ensure that we can define what finality is, not rabbiting on and hoping these settlements take another 20 years. What a load of rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261053ea17dd94a79a3c63a0c70f14d11\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports, particularly those related to the last questioner\u2019s claims that National effected all those settlements with the M\u0101ori people, and can he explain how he reconciles that claim with the billboard campaign mounted by Don Brash and his colleagues over there at the last election\u2014it is called hypocrisy of the highest sort?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022736ece6b9da143fd96c2be4c2c9a102d\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: As always, those people we care about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c81293d181024189b706b0ae195005b5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5abf31693a34245ad197b0b6e818dd5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I think I can anticipate that this is not within the ministerial responsibility\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200d0f8ae77cc4cfd99b2b602ee99f505\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229616e604878b44029f309572e04715f9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not your point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235fa90b6051c47c39abaf6db9bec3838\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It is about the hypocrisy statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba20996045a64e589c36bdacb814bb44\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member mind recasting his question without making such comments, while also making sure that the question is, in fact, within the Minister\u2019s ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227789cce0bfee48a3a03839fba5e2aab6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports, particularly relating to the last questioner and the substance of his question, which, in effect, claimed all sorts of settlements by the National Party with the M\u0101ori people; do those reports reconcile with the \u201CKiwi not iwi\u201D campaign and all the other billboards that were up at the last election, and is there a word for that that starts with the letter \u201Ch\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4dc6d1f2e04779a8c0616812e6f499\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That last comment was inappropriate, but would the Minister please respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022066d8da9971442408696f380428187e6\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I definitely agree with the points that the member has just made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237f9aeb41ad4c15ab4d9a050f9e22c2\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Who will be held accountable and what will happen to those responsible for the officials\u2019 process failure to interact with cross-claimants as they promised; failure to provide accurate information about their status in the negotiations; failure to involve cross-claimants in the deliberations of officials; failure to respond to cross-claimants unless they had persistent lawyers; and, finally, for the provision of misleading information to the Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua o \u014Cr\u0101kei tribunal hearing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c802386be5024f38b93e3b7b08dd84c3\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I have no responsibility for the Office of Treaty Settlements, but certainly my colleague Minister Burton and I have been discussing those issues, and that supportive role will continue from the M\u0101ori ministry. I certainly have an interest in the cost of all of these settlements and how it keeps the great legal fraternity going in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265a4eb806da2459aa26ed6d6cc9853e1\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe Madam Speaker. Ki te Minita, he aha t\u014Dna whakautu ki t\u0101 te Taraipiunara p\u0101nui i t\u0113r\u0101 Mane, ar\u0101, i kite nei r\u0101tou i \u0113tahi \u201Ctino ngoikoretanga i te \u0101hua o ng\u0101 uiuinga i waenganui i a r\u0101tou me \u0113r\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B o Te Arawa k\u0101ore i te whakatau tono\u201D, \u0101, i te mutunga ake i \u201C\u0101wangawanga te Taraipiunara ka waimeha ng\u0101 tikanga a Te Arawa, \u0101 ng\u0101 r\u0101 kei mua i te aroaro?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[What response does the Minister have to the finding released on Monday that the Waitangi Tribunal found \u201Cserious flaws in the way the Crown consulted with non-settling Te Arawa groups\u201D, concluding that the tribunal was left \u201Cfearing for the customary future of the Te Arawa waka\u201D?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e020eb23c44f64b36317b8ea647e6a\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te k\u014Drero tahi ake an\u014D a Te Arawa, kei a r\u0101tou t\u0113r\u0101. E m\u014Dhio ake an\u014D te tangata e p\u0101tai ake an\u014D i t\u0113r\u0101 p\u0101tai, i reira k\u0113 r\u0101tou i te r\u0101 i tuhia w\u0113tahi o Te Arawa, e kore e tuhia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f7c83c75a68446b8d28ac07f09b524d\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. T\u0113na koe, Madam Speaker. Kia huri ki te reo tuarua nei. The point of order is in respect of the question, which was about his response as opposed to what Te Arawa did or did not believe. I ask the Minister to reconsider his response. The question was about his response, not that of Te Arawa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae4278ee61134028a17af8280c6a7fc3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we will have the interpretation, then we will make a judgment on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E[Te Arawa are indeed talking amongst themselves. They are dealing with that. The member who asked that question is fully aware that they were indeed there on the day; some of Te Arawa signed and some did not.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac1544766ce74b77834799aa7e638cbb\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that answer did address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ca068e82c84b1cb41a51b63259e20b\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Does the Minister consider that the recent reports from the Waitangi Tribunal on the Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua ki \u014Cr\u0101kei claim and that of Te Arawa will impact on the timeliness of these and other settlements; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c54f471748e43c1bace52ee8b73bed3\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: It may do so, but certainly it is interesting that these two reports are the two that never went through the tribunal process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d728f3aa4cf4c7da2becca1172bd174\u0022\u003EDr Pita Sharples\u003C/span\u003E: Ki te whakaae koe ki t\u0101 te Taraipiunara i k\u012B, ko t\u0101 te Karauna he tuku whakaatu ki te katoa o ng\u0101 patapatai, \u0101, m\u0113n\u0101 kei te whakaae, he aha ai i taka roa, k\u0101re hoki i wawe te tuku k\u014Drero, \u0101, kaititiro i te w\u0101 o ng\u0101 tono i T\u0101maki-makau-rau, \u0101, he aha hoki ng\u0101 mahi i mahia e Te Puni K\u014Dkiri i t\u0113nei w\u0101 i runga i t\u014Dna mana whakahaere m\u014D te \u0101huatanga whakatutuki whanaungatanga i waenganui i te Karauna r\u0101ua ko te M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219767ece-60f1-4014-9855-74afaa34e699\u0022\u003E[Does the Minister agree with the tribunal that it is the Crown\u2019s job to provide evidence on all issues in the inquiry; if so, why was the documentary evidence in the T\u0101maki-makau-rau settlement provided late, reluctantly, and piecemeal, and what part did Te Puni K\u014Dkiri play in this role, given its responsibilities in the output class Crown-M\u0101ori relationships?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fecb4eb4d144d149309895861c1ffdc\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te whai kaha ake noa te Tari o Te Puni K\u014Dkiri i te tautokotia ake noa ng\u0101 take nei mai r\u0101 an\u014D n\u0101 te mea, e puta ake noa taku k\u014Drero ki te Kaiwhakahaere a Leith Comer, hei whakatere tae i te t\u016B ake noa ng\u0101 kanohi e mau m\u014Dhio, e mau matatau ki ng\u0101 take katoa i roto i a t\u0101tou o te iwi M\u0101ori. Kei te mahi awhi ake noa a Te Puni K\u014Dkiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[The Ministry of M\u0101ori Development has been working vigorously for a long time in supporting these matters. I have been in consultation with Leith Comer, the chief executive, seeking to hasten the process of bringing aboard staff who are experts in all matters pertaining to our M\u0101ori people. Te Puni K\u014Dkiri will continue to play a supportive role.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c313d3d58b044949f8da721ed5c3ee2\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Free Hours, Surcharges\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022408d8d87a5db4f3ab0d51e48e3523bdf\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that \u201C20 hours free means the regulated standard is free\u201D; if so, how many early childhood education services will be able to offer \u201C20 hours free\u201D without also charging parents extra top-up fees, donations, or surcharges?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00223b00cf6027e94203ac84839ad15327b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b00cf6027e94203ac84839ad15327b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. All who sign up will have agreed to provide the regulated standard for free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9c46ff0c70b4d6c915b5f5625502f02\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: When the Government announced the policy of 20 free hours for early childhood education during the 2005 election campaign, was it always the intention of the Government to actually continue to charge New Zealanders for receiving a service that it was trying to tell them on one brief would be free?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223261fd9ea3aa4333924832b485762fa3\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No. This was a full cost model with the rate responsibly set after a survey of all costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c101cd591fe4b4dbd251b971d9beaee\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received any advice in respect of claims made in the House yesterday that the Ministry of Education had approved information about the policy that was sent out in a private sector newsletter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1c8a11ef914f798d3d8957f1da920a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The advice I have is that Paula Bennett\u2019s claims were false. That seems typical of the National Party\u2019s campaign of denigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249d556bcd317427599bd621377595e22\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: When the New Zealand public start to consider the definition of the word \u201Cfree\u201D, does the Prime Minister think they will use their standard definition, something for nothing, or does she think they will use her definition, something they still have to pay for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c4b6582fb4043ae88e3f9907eb61f5f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What the public will be relieved to know is that the rate was responsibly set after a survey, rather than our deciding like a money trader just to write out a blank cheque.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228ff42bc55ff460aacd5fdc5ee3dce2f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think the Prime Minister should publicly indicate that Labour\u2019s poll ratings are going down. It is not a very good sign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b05f6a4a1948a493d46620d6ac9ce9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If there are any more peripheral comments, we will hear these questions in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c1c9499c81b4833bd58e96fe26ffe53\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Under the Prime Minister\u2019s policy, how should centres actually deal with parents who cannot, will not, or do not pay the optional fee over and above her regulated standard fee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1846a3794e947f18fffb3b62df65498\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There is no obligation to pay an optional fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f4bab0a591d4234bf02118acbb18641\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister not realise that many centres simply cannot afford to offer a service of 20 hours free without charging a top-up, and that without that top-up, many New Zealand children will receive a service that is completely substandard to the one they receive today, which is why so many centres are not opting in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6db74c14bae48c7b5934509b7a8af93\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I said yesterday, the member is going to be very disappointed that his campaign to try to stop centres signing up has been such a spectacular failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f2e11c5b6c14936a944bf0caee6d308\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that the people who are very disappointed are the New Zealanders who believed her when they thought they were getting 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education, only to find out, when we are not in an election year, that they actually have to pay for it\u2014or are they getting used to broken promises under Labour, in the same way that the Minister of Finance in the 2005 Budget told them they were to receive a tax cut, only to now know they are not to receive a tax cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226888be37e21e42bc884396edd236040b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The only people who will be very disappointed are people like the Leader of the Opposition and Sue Thorne, who have campaigned to try to stop people from taking up this very good policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb57dc25c5a140b4bc79f8917b57d08f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by her statement made in the House yesterday: \u201CKidicorp has been a very good supporter of this policy.\u201D, and does that mean we can take it that she endorses Kidicorp\u2019s sensible argument that \u201C20 hours free is nothing but a subsidy that cannot be made to work unless parents pay the top-up fees.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228abd5168bf634a4697d76a7185e86154\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that it is full costs for the regulated standard. This is a great policy, which I confidently predict the National Party will adopt\u2014if not by lunchtime, then probably by the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002291f16cb019e7444799ed92a18b39c5f4\u0022\u003EFinancial Products, Providers and Intermediaries, Review\u2014Objectives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707ee5a71ae6457ea574370900bc9f88\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce: What were the principal objectives of the review of financial products, providers, and intermediaries, and how have those objectives been achieved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd68806f97ca4e4c9881796871d55298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd68806f97ca4e4c9881796871d55298\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E The principal objectives of the review were to give investors confidence, to improve consumer protection, and to ensure that New Zealand meets its international obligations. These have been addressed, with the announcement that all financial service providers will be registered, subjected to a range of background checks, and required to belong to an approved consumer dispute resolution scheme. Non-bank deposit takers will come under the prudential supervision of the Reserve Bank, and, as part of that, will be required to have credit ratings, enabling investors to know the risk they are taking with their hard-earned money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa0fcd554d24e308c5aa0603b484352\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: What was the process for conducting these reviews, and what has been the response to the announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f7b6023a8c946bcb32fdd8d908a00a2\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The reviews involved input from a task force and from several expert groups that were involved in developing the discussion documents that were put out for public submissions last year. It is therefore not surprising that the response from the financial sector has been incredibly positive, with financial service providers welcoming the greater professionalism that will result from the new framework. As one finance company chief executive officer said in describing credit ratings as a good move: \u201CBy having ratings it creates that platform whereby the investor can actually compare one opportunity with another.\u201D I think this has been a very good result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb26931e59c74792a409f6f3e3e6a697\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can she advise real estate agents and bank tellers whether information they provide to people who wish to invest, such as \u201CThe term deposit rate for today is 8.5 percent.\u201D, will see them categorised as financial advisers under this new regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c2e328588824daabfee398f0bf4daa3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I have not heard a real estate agent offer that advice before, but I can tell the member that the detail that he has asked for is in the public arena, in the form of all the questions and answers that we provided his office with yesterday. Real estate agents will be covered as financial advisers if they are providing advice on investment property. If they are providing advice on investment property, they will be caught by the new regime. Bank tellers will not be caught by the new regime, because they are not giving financial advice when they are simply providing information that is available at the bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e9b7ffc18248d18eeb7d583185b558\u0022\u003EMaryan Street\u003C/span\u003E: Will fringe moneylenders, also known as loan sharks, be included in the publicly available register; if so, what sort of people will not be operating such businesses in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa7338852ed429796d7d6d453cb4c85\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they will. Those with dishonesty or fraud convictions within the last 5 years, money-launderers, undischarged bankrupts, and those subject to a confiscation or forfeiture order under the Proceeds of Crimes Act will not be able to operate as moneylenders in the future. In addition, these loan sharks will have to belong to an approved dispute resolution scheme, which means they will have to be more careful about compliance with the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act, which we suspect is not always the case at the moment. This regime represents a substantial strengthening of the existing law, and I am sure the Minister of Consumer Affairs will be watching the implementation very closely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f764fd0f9b874c58899101023d6aa8e6\u0022\u003EHouse Prices and Rents\u2014Ring-fencing of Investment Losses\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f0e0948dcae45018f80dca2cc2363ac\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What effect would ring-fencing any losses from investment in housing have on house prices and rents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cebfdba00ec543c99914ef7aee647d3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cebfdba00ec543c99914ef7aee647d3e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Given the effective tax advantage on investment in housing it should cool the housing market, particularly over the longer term, The impact on rents is less certain, particularly as it may become easier for those renting to purchase their own homes. Generally speaking, one would expect a convergence between house prices and rentals, over time, as a return on investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215332e1a292e4d02b7120f2ca00526d7\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm, then, that the effect of ring-fencing losses would initially be to force rents up and to force everyone\u2019s house value down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223978af666db44b1d8b256ba3d32b9480\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: A change of this sort takes some time to occur. For example, when ring-fencing was removed in 1991, we did not move immediately to a position where rental losses outweighed rental income. That did not occur until about 1996.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf391deec8c4dc29e927cac39dd8b0f\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise the House whether the Government is taking any steps to support people who might want to save for their own homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224183dea722ce46f5ae61a67514a341da\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Those who join the KiwiSaver scheme, which comes into effect on 1 July, and save 4 percent of their income for 3 years will have access to a first-home deposit subsidy of $1,000 per year of membership, up to a maximum of $5,000 for 5 years for each member, subject to certain eligibility criteria\u2014so, potentially, $10,000 for a couple. The Minister of Housing is currently developing a shared equity scheme, and this will be considered as part of Budget 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022867f5850f11a453580e711df9be0d8b5\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister share the views of the Governor of the Reserve Bank and New Zealand First that rampant immigration has had a major impact on house prices and rents, and will he be seeking to limit immigration numbers to help ensure that Kiwis can still afford to own their own houses in their own country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237cee5917b374308a1477372a0829a11\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think it is fair to describe Dr Bollard\u2019s view as being that \u201Crampant\u201D immigration has had an impact on inflation. He pointed out that, obviously, an increase in population, whether by immigration or by other means, has an impact upon the housing market. Equally, of course, immigration has served to provide additional labour into a tight labour market, which otherwise might have seen high rates of increase in the cost of labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673257c1cbe14b09b60aeef76bb303d7\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister open to alternatives to the ring-fencing of tax losses, for evaluation against the criterion of increasing housing affordability and as a supplementary monetary policy instrument, whether arising from Finance and Expenditure Committee inquiries or from elsewhere, including those alternatives that other parties in the House may care to offer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205a7d4d4bc5f4fedad5f1ebcf6d88168\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am always open to alternatives and discussion. If the member is capable of bringing another 48 votes with him on this matter, I will be extraordinarily grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f786960e59434f84ceb61062e83ea0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, the Hon Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229de667690434b288938e68fd3bba9fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I was on my feet asking for a question, and you gave the question to somebody who was sitting in his seat. That is not the way it is done, Madam Speaker. I was on my feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263ebd157ade24c0991606a405656ebc4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, I am on my feet now, Mr Peters. I determine who gets the call. New Zealand First had had a call. There is a convention that the call goes on rotation. When I do not do that, that member, I am afraid, also criticises the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022740df7809ecd43a380697b7143c1a524\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Would you please explain to me which Standing Order, Speaker\u2019s ruling, or convention requires you to seek someone who is not on his or feet and give that person the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286d8fe662b0746ba93a49e99d2d4b098\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I say that the member raises a point that is useful in a wider context, because a habit has developed in the House\u2014I think partly because of the rotation of supplementary questions\u2014whereby a lot of members do not now actually rise and call before receiving the call. I think that often the Speaker sees that, for example, it is time for a Green call, and if a Green person is rising to his or her feet, the assumption is that he or she is doing so to ask a question. I think it would be helpful if we reverted to the more traditional practice where people have to rise in their seats and call. It is quite correct that Mr English did not call at that point, and began to sit down again when Mr Peters sought the call at that point. Madam Speaker, it is worth bringing to the attention of the House that it is helpful from your perspective if people do actually stand and call when they are seeking to ask a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f297e175064aee8fd234379817c8f2\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that. In the past I had noticed that Mr Peters had risen then actually sat again. I will consider the issue, and I will come back tomorrow with a considered ruling on it. In the past, if parties did not get the call in the rotation when they were expecting it, then matters were raised\u2014as the member has done himself. That is fair enough. I think we do need some clarity on this. I also am aware\u2014and I want to put this as sensitively as I can\u2014that some people take some time to rise to their feet. I am trying to be sensitive to that, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ad99b8855ef4cefbad4e313cdf9d6d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is saying that the job market was filled by high immigration numbers, then what evidence does he have that is different from the briefing of the Department of Labour post election 2002, which said that up to that point fewer than one out of two immigrants had been placed in the economy; what has changed in the last 4 years to make that false?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbfbc402135f43ce9eb2c10b7d74583b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: What has changed in part is the significant change in the criteria for immigration, to place far greater emphasis upon the general skills category. Of course, if a person is immigrating with a family, then not all of that family will be entering the job market, necessarily\u2014particularly if there are children. But the reality is that if the member cares to look at the data over a significant number of years, he will see that the balance of immigration has moved very significantly in the direction of an emphasis upon the skills element.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f6ade5a9c64bac9a43eabdbf85a93c\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister believe will be the effect on homeowners with large mortgages when their 2-year interest rate goes from 7\u00BD percent to 9\u00BC percent, as will occur for thousands of them in the next 6 months; and why is he not satisfied with that impact on their pockets and their house values, without his adding another measure, which may have the effect of pushing their house values down even further than high interest rates will?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce3642390dd4e6cbc06eed553710efa\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: One of the reasons for considering measures around this is, in fact, to aid monetary policy, so that interest rates do not need to be raised as much. This member has been calling for higher increases in interest rates by the Governor of the Reserve Bank, as a means of throttling off demand. It is a bit rich now for him to turn round and bemoan the consequences. In the immortal words of Tom Paine, he \u201Cpities the plumage, but forgets the dying bird\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6a057b269d44eb4bdf7adf31dd59f93\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Where has the Minister been for the last 6 years, when house prices have been rising continuously; if he thought that this measure was effective at all, why did he not bring it in 5 years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b25d52a46104d369c879d7a6cff1a69\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member bounces around from opposing such a measure to suggesting that it already should have been done. Once he settles at some particular place, I will know how to explain to his leader, John Key, why and where he differs from him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae0db3fee03e439999e9adcc414463a7\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have the support of the Prime Minister for his campaign to push down house values, in the light of her comments on Monday explicitly ruling out a capital gains tax; and does her failure to rule out ring-fencing losses mean that it is now Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022991f3d19f08c46babcd512029455f3a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No such proposal has been taken to Cabinet, therefore by definition it is not Government policy. One of the problems with a capital gains tax\u2014apart from the fact that if it were done, it should apply to all asset classes\u2014is that countries overseas that have capital gains taxes have significant inflation in house prices on occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf0c6c89ffc425cba79953cca2eeaf5\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: In reference to overseas data, has the Minister seen the data in the Reserve Bank submission that shows there is absolutely no correlation between the tax treatment of housing and the rise in house prices\u2014in other words, it does not seem to matter what tax treatment different countries have; their house prices have risen to roughly the same extent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218ffc82935a43fbb6a6c57b133bd16f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If the Reserve Bank is saying that, I am stunned. In fact, the variability in house price increases in the last 10 years, even in developed countries, has been extremely large. Some countries, such as Japan, have seen a fall in house prices over that period of time. Some countries, such as Ireland, have seen very much higher increases than those in New Zealand over that period of time. What is significant in New Zealand is that before ring-fencing was removed in 1991, net rental income was more than 80 percent of gross rental income, in total, whereas, on average, over the last 7 or 8 years net rental income has been less than 10 percent of total rental income. That points to very heavy gearing of purchasing property for rental purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ac1343b226b4ea2952ccf31aa948eb0\u0022\u003EClimate Change\u2014International Negotiations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b72e79eebd474b759077be9e83dc7a5f\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: What recent reports, if any, has he received on New Zealand\u2019s role in international negotiations for much-needed agreement on climate change post-2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00228645350964fa444380122ab93613b9ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228645350964fa444380122ab93613b9ba\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand has been taking a leading role in climate change negotiations in Sweden. We were asked to lead discussions on the critically important topic of emissions pricing to speed up the use of low-emissions technology to help the world beat global warming. This was indeed a high honour, with the other two lead speakers being China and the European Union, and it recognised the Labour-led Government\u2019s leadership in this important area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c002e00f5e93454a9a7f335ac1b9a820\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have any early indications of who might sign up to a post-2012 agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225507031a3c034adaa6c088c03881d8d7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: One hundred and seventy-five countries ratified Kyoto. Only three backed out of their earlier agreement: Australia, the United States, and Kazakhstan. Of course, we know what side the National Party is on. Australia and the United States have recently modified their positions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4dfbe4f26ad40e7a8341891a4fa7fe1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Borat!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a287a759021b492cb490f892845baa98\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right; we can only assume that perhaps Dr Smith takes his instructions from Kazakhstan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bcb347d42784a7ca4f26189bc237c68\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How will the record of his Government since 1999\u2014which is that greenhouse gas emissions have increased by 10 million tonnes per year, an increase double the rate of what occurred during the 1990s, and one of the fastest growth rates in the developed world\u2014how will this awful record\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df58872e5e2941afbd83bf5221826524\u0022\u003ERt Hon Helen Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Carbon neutrality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd609f75556342e9ba105e8b0bd62e52\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the Prime Minister that it is her awful record. It does not look much like carbon neutrality to me. How will an increase of 10 million tonnes a year, which is the fastest growth rate in the developed world, help our credibility in trying to get the rest of the world to constrain its emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffee59fd59f84404bfe199f928e59feb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am quite happy to contrast the record of this Government with the National Party\u2019s position, and I really do not expect much better from the National Party. I have a quote here from Dr Smith, which I think illuminates his attitude to this issue, in which he boasts about being \u201Cat the coalface\u201D of environmental policy. I suspect he got that from Borat, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7a74e0572744d469af24f6a649290a3\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s comments about Australia, is he aware that Australia has reduced its emissions over recent years, yet has not signed up for Kyoto, whilst, with us, it is exactly the reverse; is he aware also that Australia has recently released a detailed report on how it will effect a \u201Ccap and trade\u201D system by the year 2012; and does he believe that this is such a serious global issue that it would be well worth our while getting involved with Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f824ce30605b440f95530a0b1f85ac0d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Australia has not reduced its emissions. Australia had the softest proposed Kyoto target of any target country in the world, which was 108 percent of emissions, an 8 percent increase in emissions over the 1990 base level\u2014and it is not yet clear whether it will make even that 8 percent increase. It may go even higher. In respect of its proposals to develop an emissions trading scheme, I would have thought that people would be somewhat suspicious of an emissions trading scheme that is projected to be 5 years out from one of the three countries in the world that said they would not commit to their agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211df8a765ad0475bb6fff54f3661d663\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with India\u2019s former environment secretary, Pradipto Ghosh, that it is \u201Cnow up to the world to decide how big the \u2018carbon pie\u2019 should be at a certain point in the future\u2014say, 2050\u2014and then agree that by that date all nations should have an equal entitlement relative to their size of population.\u201D; if he does not agree with that approach, what alternative criteria does he support for allocating emissions globally after 2012?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a86a90701cd42d599a3ad0e93351cbc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear that developed countries will have to reduce their emissions in gross terms towards the much lower levels of emissions that are coming from developing countries. But it is also true that convergence alone will not cure the problem, because if there were to be convergence at realistic levels, that would see the growth in emissions in developing countries causing global warming to reach levels that, really, no one wants to get to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table a report in the Marlborough Express, in which Dr Smith said he wanted to consult on National\u2019s environmental policy at the coalface.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e61ffdbe962e48afb820f7174eb02020\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the Government\u2019s actual record, which has seen a 10 million - tonne increase\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ea08ce62ee046b2a31d71b198112090\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b67f07e390f34a528365a52eeab6cde1\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the quote from the Indian former environment secretary, which makes clear he was talking about the size of the pie\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022122e00e2708b4ae292f39543ff16bf18\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Free Hours, Surcharges\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf900489e3b4b368958e8b622a46571\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What advice has his ministry given early childhood centres regarding the setting of optional charges, and what are the appropriate steps for a centre to take in the event that parents refuse to pay any optional charges under the Government\u2019s 20 free hours policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002297d83afcff004a69a5bc9dfdb7460e50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297d83afcff004a69a5bc9dfdb7460e50\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The advice is the same as mine. The Government is funding 20 hours of quality early childhood education. Any additional charges are optional, and parents have a choice as to whether or not to agree to pay them. That is why, as I think Paula Bennett quite rightly says, parents will be clearly better off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022190a6ffbb4484574b5e94b2fcbce067c\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: What is a centre that takes up his 20 free hours policy to do if it is faced with a parent who refuses to pay optional charges, which many centres will be relying on, not to pay for luxuries but for day-to-day costs like books, teachers\u2019 salaries, and electricity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022206b9e13913c4e36a21fa070c426e9c7\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As the rules are set out, a centre cannot refuse to enrol a child on the grounds that the child\u2019s parents have not agreed to pay an optional charge. The second part of the question by the member of course is really fictitious. What we are talking about here is a fully funded model, based upon a survey of the entire sector. As the member learnt at the select committee today, there has been a 56 percent response to that survey, which is twice the size of the sample that the reviewers said was needed to get an accurate idea of costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223597d5a559f84de58e6751f68d839300\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have any specific reports of how families will benefit from the Government\u2019s 20 free hours policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fa0198edfcc4ee48b6d1e0e162197f6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Our understanding is that the costs to families of early childhood education will go down, that access will go up, and that centres themselves will find that they will get more stable and more predictable funding. It is therefore a pity that the National Party campaign of misinformation has perhaps meant that some centres will not enrol just now. They will wait to see how it goes. That means that mums and dads and their kids will miss out on 1 July, but I am sure they will come in at a suitable time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236bfd051ed5745ddac1595d7f2529f55\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Regarding the families that will benefit, can he confirm that after 1 July some Kiwi parents who are not near a centre offering 20 free hours could miss out, while a non-resident, non-citizen, long-term holidaymaker or overstayer who is living beside the right centre could get 20 hours free?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbcc2a3a1dbe4fbb98b85e129e96de42\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked this question in the select committee today. The information given to her was that 0.25 percent of enrolments in early childhood education centres currently fit that description. Our opinion is that that is a reasonable place for a young child to be. It is better for them to be there than to be nowhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea941270ca7414d99d0dbf33c28a144\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister think that some Kiwi parents will feel\u2014those parents who will miss out on 20 free hours because they do not have access to it in their local community\u2014when they hear that some parents who are not residents, who are not citizens, and who may be here for a long-term holiday or overstaying for some other reason could get 20 hours free, when they cannot get it in their local community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ece78452ec846a6a1b515bac8f66b33\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think when they know it is 0.25 percent of enrolments, they will think that the member\u2019s question is pathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d3aa19dd614c78987c9188506e1a4e\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: When some centres that may offer 20 free hours will potentially have extremely long waiting lists, why will he not specify in his new policy of 20 free hours that priority must be given to New Zealand residents, New Zealand citizens, and Kiwi mums and dads, and not to people who may be here for an extended holiday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276083617cb004a69ab7bf10e1dc05d18\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, public services are for Kiwis first, but we are talking about 0.25 percent of enrolments. The member herself, when asked today at the select committee what her policy would be, said, as usual, that she did not have a policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e00d9918a54e48bbb4181b3c08fa2c\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister give us his definition of \u201Cfree\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226609ca3e30464801969e0db68275fedd\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the early childhood policy that we are talking about, we are funding 20 hours of quality education for 3 and 4-year-olds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6dc1aa3adc2455db15afcd01947e246\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister continually uses school donations as a comparable example, is it not true that if a parent does not pay a school donation there are no consequences, except maybe that the child does not go to the school ball, whereas not paying a donation to an early childhood education centre under the 20 hours free policy could mean that a teacher loses his or her job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c1731ccb8642da863c96704424d775\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The example that the member is using comes from the head of the New Zealand Educational Institute, who has praised the 20 hours policy, saying it is the best thing for families and is a huge step forward for education. I am very glad that the member is referring to Irene Cooper, because she is a huge supporter of this policy. I say to the member opposite that we are funding 20 hours of early childhood education to the quality level, and if there are any additional services, then those are optional charges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba249512bd3a41138238ed87d972a720\u0022\u003EPrimary Health Organisations\u2014M\u0101ori Enrolments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b5dc73f6c84c6ca6d2b5b5df33c19c\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Has he received any recent reports on the number of M\u0101ori enrolled in primary health organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd473194113e4c1991f20a141266f697\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd473194113e4c1991f20a141266f697\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that as at April 2007 the number of M\u0101ori enrolled was 523,673, and from July they will benefit even more from this Government\u2019s commitment to make doctors\u2019 visits and prescriptions more affordable. Our investment in primary health care has reduced doctors\u2019 fees by around $27.50 and has lowered standard prescription charges from $15 to $3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223902609f29aa4fe1b5e46eb3a3b7f73a\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received any regional reports of the impact of those investments in primary health care reductions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234443bd47d8b40c8a7084890062818f4\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: I receive reports on a regular basis through the Ministry of Health. I will give some examples of the work that is being done out in the regions that complement the Government\u2019s policies on primary health and the primary health sector. For example, the Te Pou Ora o Te Piringatahi, Northland primary health organisations\u2019 mental health initiative, was basically designed to improve the identification, treatment, and support of people with mental health and addiction issues in the primary-care setting, also to provide better follow-up and coordination for people with mental health and addiction issues in Northland, and, lastly, to promote better understanding and prevention of mental health and addiction issues in that area. I also receive other reports on a regular basis\u2014for example, from Ng\u0101ti Porou Hauora and the University of Otago on their Ng\u0101ti and Healthy programme, which is run through the Tair\u0101whiti District Health Board. To cut a long story short, Ng\u0101ti Porou Hauora was the supreme award winner in the 2006 Wh\u0101nau Ora awards. I have many other examples here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e22bd88efd548379b208787eafa625c\u0022\u003EUnemployment\u2014Household Labour Force Survey\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221605253da17940149caca50c251a5ae1\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does he agree with the statements of his predecessor, the Hon Steve Maharey, that the household labour force survey is \u201Cthe only credible and consistent measure of unemployment\u201D, the \u201Cbest way of measuring New Zealand\u2019s performance internationally\u201D, and \u201Cthe only accepted measure of unemployment\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd8ce54e29e84af5bb55a3135bcc3f2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd8ce54e29e84af5bb55a3135bcc3f2a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I am somewhat surprised that the member has nothing better to do than to trawl through Steve Maharey\u2019s press releases from 7 years ago, good reading though they are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290053fd807084edcb3d1ecb028194335\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. The Minister knows that such comments prefacing an answer to a question are bound to create disorder. So I would ask Ministers to refrain from doing so and to please just address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f81115c2f950429ea023e8dcb60c1911\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: For the member\u2019s information and for the information of the House, I point out that the household labour force survey is New Zealand\u2019s only official measure of the unemployment rate. Let me remind the House of the unemployment rate that the Labour-led Government inherited when coming into office shortly before Mr Maharey made those statements. In 1999 the unemployment rate was 6.8 percent; it is now 3.8 percent. In 1999 the youth unemployment rate was 16.7 percent; it is now 14.1 percent. In 1999 the unemployment rate for M\u0101ori was 16.6 percent; it is now 7.9 percent. In 1999 the unemployment rate of Pacific peoples was 13.6 percent; it is now 6.5 percent. I think members would agree that this is rather a credible and consistent improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebde95b91f454904a6aba478afd2d829\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: If the household labour force survey is the official register of unemployment, was the reason the Minister said in the House last week that the survey had shortcomings because the data confirms that unemployment amongst 15 to 19-year-olds has actually increased by 16 percent from 24,000 in March last year to 27,800 in March this year, according to the most recent household labour force survey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226afbdf66f581450aa890dad395983d81\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: It is important that the member does not confuse the unemployment benefit figures and the household labour force survey. The household labour force survey, I note for members\u2019 information, includes all people who are seeking 1 hour or more employment per week, including full-time students and retired people. Many people, of course, such as full-time students or those receiving New Zealand superannuation, are quite reasonably not entitled to any unemployment support. The numbers can therefore be, and are in fact, quite different, especially for youth, because the household labour force survey unemployment figure will include, for example, any school or tertiary student seeking part-time work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152b342d107047f0b78d477f9701a734\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister remind the House how many young people were on an unemployment benefit in 1999 compared with now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecfb4501607f4db785552f390dd9d96c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I can report that in December 1999 there were 17,514 18 and 19-year-olds receiving an unemployment benefit. In March of this year there were 1,566 young people receiving such a benefit. I can now report that in the most recent figures at the end of May, that number was only 1,227. That is a massive 93 percent reduction in unemployed 18 and 19-year-olds since this Government took office. That success is equally mirrored with impressive results for M\u0101ori and Pacific young people. The number of 18 and 19-year-old M\u0101ori unemployed at the end of May was 477, which is a 92 percent reduction since National was in office. Pacific unemployment numbers for the same period are now 125. That is a 91 percent reduction since National was in office, and let me stress that that number of 1,227, only 407 have been receiving an unemployment benefit for more than 13 weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0f200586334720ae965a012692005b\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Minister confirm that New Zealand still has a major problem with teenage unemployment, that 15 to 19-year-olds have been shunted off the unemployment benefit to other benefits or to dubious employment schemes, and that the 2002 goal of getting all 15 to 19-year-olds into employment, education, or industry training has been abandoned by the 27,800 people who are now unemployed teenagers\u2014which that Minister will not admit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcdab5578c3d41e4b5a5f23aee17d60e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I think that most New Zealanders would welcome the very strong Government focus, which is on reducing benefit dependency, and, in particular, on ensuring that young people who are at risk of under-employment, unemployment, or long-term unemployment, or who have low skills, are appropriately supported. The success of those initiatives is only too well demonstrated with the dramatic fall in benefit numbers that I have detailed several times in the last few days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b56dda226474a409c45dbd944451470\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister use household labour force data sometimes\u2014when it suits his version\u2014as he did on 10 May this year, but when it comes to using it as a measure of teenage unemployment he discounts it and insists on using the same Work and Income figures, which he has quoted today, that Steve Maharey said were no more than an administrative tool?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f5c6a651454b6c9a98e1ae48611664\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I talk about the household labour force survey when I am talking about the household labour force survey. When I talk about unemployment benefit numbers I refer to unemployment benefit numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b48eed60af749b4992a678e0e30c0a2\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister choose to use figures that his predecessor, Steve Maharey, called just \u201Can administrative tool\u201D when Mr Maharey has also stated that using Work and Income figures rather than the household labour force data was \u201Cto play fast and loose with unemployment statistics\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e58fdd2bac6842649acd72168fc114d7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I use the household labour force survey because it enables us to track participation rates, and employment and unemployment rates, and to compare them with the OECD statistics, which are measured in a similar fashion. The household labour force survey conforms with the standard International Labour Organization guidelines for comparability. It helps us recognise our successes in international terms. The household labour force survey has enabled us to see, for example, that we have the fifth-lowest unemployment rate among the 27 OECD countries with comparable data\u2014that shows a pretty considerable improvement. In December 1999 we were 14th; now we are fifth out of 27 OECD countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293491c33f68547c19cae5e08e922cbb6\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why 3 years after his predecessor announced a $56.9 million package in Budget 2004 to provide all 15 to 19-year-olds with a \u201Ckick-start to their working lives\u201D the number of unemployed 15 to 19-year-olds has actually increased by 16 percent according to the official register of the household labour force survey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4be2447da1549069a104d4d25c184e7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: I have already explained to that member that the household labour force survey includes all people who may be looking for 1 hour\u2019s work or more and includes students. It is a good example of why it is often more important to look at the actual unemployment figures. I think the best answer for the member\u2019s question is if I read the trending\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da99109f2f004dca854b989b71679393\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is becoming very difficult to hear the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a6e8dfa34543e787315c403c119452\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: The best answer I can provide for the member is to read the trending in one cohort. I will choose 18 and 19-year-old unemployment numbers from 1998 to the present day. In 1998 there were 14,000 receiving that support; in 1999 there were 17,000; in 2000 there were 13,500; in 2001 there were 11,000; in 2002, 10,000; in 2003, 9,163; in 2004, 5,991; in 2005, 4,271; in 2006, 3,262; and the last figure, in 2007\u2014and remember that the starting point, the highest point, was 17,500\u2014in May was 1,227.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bae49ecfaffc4447907b42fa50630d39\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table \u201CPlaying fast and loose with unemployment stats won\u2019t wash\u201D by Steve Maharey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3b354499e6743ae9f5a6bcad3be687e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae2ccd50cbdd44899b38f1caa768ded4\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article \u201C \u2018Honest\u2019 job figures sought\u201D, from the Dominion Post in October 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022183183\u0022\u003E: \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7de4f5b64e048419caae4499c7b9563\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKERMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289461245b5bc4e4fbe5395336bcbd461\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table \u201CBudget 2004: $57 million boost for young people\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022183183\u0022\u003E: \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5e770b4c7e4e96b1bd50499f510be4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKERMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e4c1a92984848a9a7fa366866970996\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the household labour force survey\u2014the latest one out this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022183183\u0022\u003E: \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281195da49c68441cb3dd351c55562413\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKERMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022731b2b9e118c405eb5965f817adbf929\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article \u201CMayors give up target date to end teen joblessness\u201D of 23 April 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022183183\u0022\u003E: \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a445027cd614b22b40b54a6988c82e4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKERMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feca6212b06648d6a925e6bd7c0e8e04\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article \u201CComplacency kills students\u2019 dreams\u201D of 11 May 2007 in the New Zealand Herald.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022183183\u0022\u003E: \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ecbcbe92b13413dbdcff3b6053191e5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKERMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f3d31b1534c4603b96d4eca75ac89bd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister, 19 June\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e5b39be52f4a819a8e8d0275ee9f73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e5b39be52f4a819a8e8d0275ee9f73\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to table the Hansard from the British Parliament giving the complete quote by Mr Rooney that was used selectively yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8f7d3496e47418493851c26b10b3d36\u0022\u003ESchools, Primary\u2014Half-days Open for Instruction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283284262acf04ce38ba369c882d79398\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: For how many half-days will primary schools be required to be open for instruction in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb3d07f1fd9e496c979a5cb444346ad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb3d07f1fd9e496c979a5cb444346ad5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The length of the school year varies in order to accommodate requests from teachers and parents for a 7 February start to ensure that at least some of the summer holidays occur in summer, and to prevent the nuisance of the stop-start beginning of the year brought about by the Waitangi Day public holiday. The actual half-days that primary schools are required to be open for instruction are: in 2007, 386; in 2008, 384; in 2009, 386; and in 2010, 388.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca6c84a59adb4dea9f8f9676a42fb901\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm that the requirement set in the Education Act, notwithstanding his discretion, and also set out in the 2006 and 2007 Budgets, is in fact 394 half-days, and why has he used his discretion in this particular way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261aedeffc3aa4d07920c66e9d2850ebd\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, both Labour and National Governments over the last little while have used that discretion, because the original figure was 398. Of course, it was dropped down 4 days by the National Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764ae2773ced4de59ed0abd0ca386e12\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: It was 400.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6f8005f1f1944ba9f395e8ceb158c74\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It was 400 earlier still\u2014that is right. It has been changed by National and by Labour. But in my own case, as I said before, we have had quite a significant number of requests from teachers and parents about the fact that schoolrooms were hot, and that there was a disturbed start to the beginning of the year, which meant there was that stop-start effect. But, wait, there is more: the member might like to know that I have also responded to requests from schools that, in some cases, have said they would rather start before 7 February. I have allowed them to have that flexibility, as well. As long as they provide students with the required number of half-days, they can do that; they can start before Waitangi Day if they want to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db1c5a5cbdfc474bb8460c8d49ea66c7\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: How does pupil-teacher contact time in New Zealand compare with that in other countries in the OECD?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b4950a6a914852ad86431c557a0eb6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand ranks second-highest, coming after only the USA in the OECD table of pupil-teacher contact time, and it remains the second-highest under the term dates set for 2008 through to 2010. In addition to those favourable statistics on pupil-teacher contact hours, of course, we want to point to the fact that quality is also important, and I point out that, on international measures of quality, we do pretty well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237ebfb1a58f5486e93cfa4a09a32b9fa\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister had drawn to his attention the large body of research that demonstrates that time spent in engaged academic learning significantly impacts on learning outcomes; if he has, how will reducing engaged academic learning time improve learning outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264b238c4fb4043ddb7261f09560bbc16\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am familiar with that research, but I remind the member of two things. First, as reinforced in a quotation from Irene Cooper from the New Zealand Educational Institute, it is the quality of what happens that matters. And I take him back to the fact that if he is concerned, he knows that we are sitting at No. 2 in the OECD in terms of the amount of pupil-teacher contact time. I hardly think we have fallen down the ranks in comparison with other countries, in terms of contact time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2bc5278a804e45b8a27c00fc79d04a\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister heard the complaints from teachers and teacher associations that there is currently not enough time to teach the curriculum; if he has, why has he not only reduced the time available for curriculum delivery but also introduced an additional curriculum component into year 7 and 8 programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e0725118d84c918e7abd88615fea12\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have heard the complaint from teachers about the enormous number of things that people want to have go on in school. The curriculum development at the moment has highlighted that, with everybody asking for the curriculum to carry one or other interesting idea. I just say to the member, though, that those very same people, who come from all of the associations to do with education and with parents, were consulted about the changes in the length of the school year, and agreed to them because they saw them as a good, quality measure. However, I would say that if we could clone the member and have him in every class, I am sure students would turn up voluntarily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225bfe5efb8bff4143bb66b5d2551c6432\u0022\u003EShared Equity Scheme\u2014Nationwide Roll-out\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220171319dffef48aeb79ed74624e8d8e2\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: When does he anticipate the nationwide roll-out of the shared equity scheme, which is to be preceded by a \u201Ctargeted pilot\u201D to be \u201Cconsidered for next year\u2019s budget\u201D, and how many New Zealanders does he expect will eventually be able to take advantage of the national scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00229056d260234a463f9785d962839fc1d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229056d260234a463f9785d962839fc1d0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I would expect that the roll-out of a shared equity scheme might occur when we have completed the targeted pilot scheme, assured ourselves of the effectiveness of the scheme, and resolved any issues identified in the pilot scheme. I cannot be more specific about the timing of any roll-out at this stage because we are still in the design phase of the pilot scheme; nor can I provide figures of how many people might be able to participate in a roll-out scheme, because those are details that have not yet been decided, and, again, will be influenced by the pilot scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215b9554b8a74aa0be0017629af761b2\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he still at the design stage of a shared equity scheme this year, then, perhaps, a pilot scheme next year, when answers to parliamentary questions say that the Government has been looking at such schemes since 2004, and the then Minister of Housing said that Labour was likely to introduce a scheme in the 2005 Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233723820770b457c9ec8f13aaef6fa56\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Shared equity is a new model of homeownership for New Zealand. It is not full ownership; it is partial ownership, and that carries a host of new legal and technical implications. We need to test demand for this model of homeownership, and we also need to take care to introduce it in a way that does not create market distortions that defeat the purpose of the scheme. That takes time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db67cc29d7e14b4495fe9c5f3e8d1c4e\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister advise what other homeownership initiatives the Government has already introduced apart from the shared equity scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b58c7758c4e94d8d9ae60994ff8ed60b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour-led Government has introduced the Welcome Home Loan scheme, which underwrites families on the margin of traditional bank criteria and helps them to get a home. About 2,600 households have used the scheme so far. We have also introduced the KiwiSaver scheme, which offers some first-time buyers assistance with a deposit, and provides a pathway to saving more quickly a much larger deposit on a home. We have also introduced a $2.5 million homeownership education programme, which has been rolled out across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a786123895a450495e177269312ff4e\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he still designing the scheme, when Helen Clark said the Government will \u201Cintroduce an equity scheme in 2006\u201D and \u201CThe Government had flagged the scheme as an election promise\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2f4ce049a914d1b89cbfa85e393dde1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: He should know!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224224081f07194967b174748968396003\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: If you want to debate something, Winston, we will talk about scampi deals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022740a0165897942df97cec57d8ed096a6\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please start his question again. We will hear it in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022909c825c-6cf3-49bd-9c74-6df837480631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206dcde77e0494c8f8174cccc76bda5ce\u0022\u003EBob Clarkson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he still designing the scheme, when Helen Clark said the Government will \u201Cintroduce an equity scheme in 2006\u201D and \u201CThe Government had flagged the scheme as an election promise and was committed to delivering it.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a675318325a44202898b05edb27dd02b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister and other Ministers in the Government have signalled that we will be having a shared equity pilot scheme, for the reasons that I outlined in an earlier answer. This is a complex process, this is a new product, and I can ensure the member that the pilot scheme will be offered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce03588c9624f45b802ee34bf763885\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister telling us that he announced the scheme in 2004, again in 2005, again in 2006, and again this year, without doing any design work at all, and without seeing whether there was any need for it or public desire for it; if so, why has he announced a shared equity scheme every year for the last 4 years, without doing the design work for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeef5540423240f2bee472df725d07ef\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What I can tell the House is that the Government is committed to firm actions to try to create housing affordability and provide access to homeownership. I have outlined a number of schemes that are already in place, and have signalled that the shared equity pilot scheme will happen next year. What is interesting is that I looked at the National Party\u2019s website before question time today, and found no reference to housing, at all. Does that mean that party does not have any housing policy at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3c6e4b5838043ca84a82f88f98716fe\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister doing to address housing affordability, if it is not encouraging district councils to release more land for subdivision, if it is not fixing the Resource Management Act 1991, and there is no sign of his flagship nationwide shared equity scheme anywhere on the horizon for the next 2 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022997c376dd9c448cc9be16c322a58a897\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have already outlined a basket of initiatives that the Government has taken. I remind the member who has just asked me the question that there is no reference to housing, at all, on the National Party\u2019s website. When is that party going to offer us any solutions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f086cc5cbae94a7cbfcd4e80cc084faf\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister had discussions with the Minster of Finance on the introduction of a policy to ring-fence tax losses on rental housing; if not, why not, given that he is the Minister of Housing and is looking at housing and affordability; if so, what is his opinion on ring-fencing tax losses on rental housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cc8dc52a2214d6e877a05a5ce208fe4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Like all members of this Government, I am in constant dialogue with the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8109f8b23443e989afe28085a503ee\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the answer to written question No. 10742, which states the Government has been working on this matter since 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37299bcf53f4ad78054c0edba2a4788\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ee53195d68f41e08bc7911817ecfa6a\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article \u201CHelp for home-buyers likely\u201D, from the Press of 3 March 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267f204560a334eef96bad12317b9d746\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222a2822f297446a8910e9b84bf171227\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the press release headed \u201CMore help for first-home buyers\u201D, dated 22 August 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2831daba5804f4aa88ec1d298089ea3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a316f03c584b0eb1af6d024ac7dbd0\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table Labour\u2019s election policy \u201COur Own Equity Share Scheme\u201D, from 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baaf37122067461085ad11ee4d14ddb1\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article headed \u201CFirst-timers to get cheap homes\u201D, from the Sunday Star-Times of July 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d21195d6ee57431b911f07084893ccc3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299d478d3232343ac822123b8344be112\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article headed \u201CShared equity schemes among options to lift home ownership\u201D, from a New Zealand Herald of August 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c3079cfa65b45c3a0ca932cc2266aa9\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228489836b1b8444ecb5d03a8c1ddf32a8\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article headed \u201CHousing Boom: Shared equity on Gov\u2019s housing agenda\u201D, from an Independent of January 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221108f4d942f848d58eb45de4346304a5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec7a0bf78864ead98b28b63cbbc15af\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the article \u201CCarter urges NZ banks to consider shared equity schemes\u201D, dated March 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2041547c6c64496b8bbfed29b017d94\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022520dbd89548f44e7bd509ac1b8ade10a\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Lastly, I seek leave to table Labour\u2019s Budget announcement that there will be a pilot shared equity scheme some time at the end of next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223742c9527f954a5fa98f005bbf4549d5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ab4e177b63742dd8995b2961db1a6d3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the official National Party website, which contains no reference to housing initiatives, or any housing policy at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a3c7012822490f8a73274f0e604fda\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My point of order is a request for you to consider what this House has just experienced, which, in my view, was a gross waste of Parliament\u2019s time. For someone to get up and read out his recent reading bibliography is not an acceptable practice in Parliament. If we all did that, there would be a hopeless lack of work being done in this Parliament. That is surely a procedure that that member and his party, in particular, should reflect on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eaa7a1ba1fd4683891a578f496e94ec\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. The member will be interested to know, as may other members, that this matter is being actively considered by the Standing Orders Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224779ede441e743d5a779ae3b8f5cf2a5\u0022\u003EGambling\u2014Inquiry into Relationship with Loan Sharks\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec48c1da7a54370b6c769b4c7d3cf5b\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Will he call for a full public inquiry into the relationship between loan sharks and gambling in New Zealand; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002274b4fddddf7e473583cfda93075aaf24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274b4fddddf7e473583cfda93075aaf24\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Although I have no responsibility for the treatment of loan sharks, and the sometimes questionable behaviour they exhibit, I am concerned with ensuring that gambling operators follow the rules. For example, allegations have been made that loan sharks were preying on gamblers at the Christchurch Casino. I assure the House that the moment officials of the Department of Internal Affairs became aware of those allegations, an investigation was initiated. When the investigation is complete, I expect the Department of Internal Affairs to take the appropriate action, and my own response to that will be informed by the result of the inquiry, and not before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221385b7e2f151405fae020b8603e5ebf9\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister think that that will be enough, when loan sharking inside casinos is endemic around the country, not just in Christchurch; when dealers are themselves actually introducing gamblers to loan sharks; and when young women, unable to pay their loans, are working off their debts in brothels owned by loan sharks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d146c867855d4cad8375845f2813cf6e\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I read with interest the press release put out just hours ago by that member, which makes those allegations. I invite the member to forward those allegations to me, either anonymised or otherwise, and I will have my department and officials investigate them thoroughly. If there is substance to them, action will be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d46e19224a594a58897d513e413d8c31\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister investigate reports that Department of Internal Affairs inspectors are being given free lunches at the Christchurch Casino, and does he think that that may impact on their ability to fully and fairly investigate activities there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe4efb14ba3e49e99a27c0e66644b3ca\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that those allegations have been made, and I intend to make no comment until an investigation is complete. To do so would prejudice it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022565decdeebce4e75842e1defb390e885\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister think that an investigation solely by the Department of Internal Affairs will be sufficient, when the department appears to be so unaware of what is really going on in casinos across the country and when there is an urgent need for affected parties to be able to give full and frank evidence under conditions of anonymity, given the threats of violence and kidnapping that underpin aspects of this loan-sharking industry inside casinos?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e23f87fa2544e8e8de867e31443db87\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Department of Internal Affairs has monitors that examine every aspect on the floor of a casino. They check all the money that goes in and out of a casino, and have very, very thorough checks. I am confident the department has a good idea of what is going on. As to the member\u2019s allegations, I make my offer again that I would appreciate it if she would forward those allegations to me, anonymised so people are not identified, or she can direct the people to me, and I will arrange an appropriate investigation. This is the first time the matter has been brought to my attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8fde553ad1b49949a9496f9e3a112ab\u0022\u003EPharmac\u2014Replacement of Ritalin SR with Rubifen SR\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229998e672afaf49bf9ef69c0838e9d74a\u0022\u003EDr JONATHAN COLEMAN (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Why has Pharmac replaced Ritalin SR with Rubifen SR as the subsidised medication for the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00221329b9cb6fa74abcbcb197f97938aab9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221329b9cb6fa74abcbcb197f97938aab9\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Pharmac did so because it can save $1 million per annum, for the same drug, and use the money elsewhere to buy other drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022194b70f05330432a940958fb89249aa4\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of reports that children whose medication has been changed from Ritalin to Rubifen have displayed a marked deterioration in behaviour, which in some cases has resulted in children having to be removed from school; if so, what action will be taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd949abd6e654f65bac39083c357c94f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware. The reactions to this drug, or to any other drugs, are collected always by the centre for adverse reactions monitoring, which is based in Dunedin. It advises that of the more than 6,000 children currently on this drug, fewer than 20 have reported any effects. Of those 20, there is no pattern to the effects, and the centre for adverse reactions monitoring therefore, at this point, has no advice to offer Pharmac. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f00623967314597820c2c73cae51760\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister acknowledge that this is a problem for families like the Celliers family of North Shore, whose little 8-year-old\u2019s behaviour deteriorated so badly when he was changed from Ritalin to Rubifen that he had to be removed from school and was unable to go back until his parents started paying for the Ritalin themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc795ddec6294341875f0476fba842a4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I do not myself name individual New Zealanders who have issues, but I am aware of the case. I just say to the member that this is the same drug. It has the same active ingredient, and when we look at the bioavailability graphs, which by the way have been sent out to every prescriber, we see the graphs are super-imposable. That does not mean there is not some idiosyncratic response from some young children, from time to time. My understanding is that this family has reapplied for an \u201Cexceptional circumstance\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb5731b7276b4fe5b68f3128bfced733\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister see there is a fundamental disconnect between Vote Education and Vote Health when a little 8-year-old has to be taken out of school like that, with all the disruption and cost that that entails; and what would the Minister say in the case of children who are removed from school, who need Ritalin in order to go back, but whose parents cannot afford up to $145 per month to pay for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022683510d71e1a49738b13887447a76758\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is a doctor and he has not heard me! So let me say this again. We are dealing with exactly the same active ingredient, and when we look at the pharmacokinetics we find exactly the same bioavailability. In other words, the drug levels are the same. Therefore the drugs are the same. What happens is that the coating of the drug may have caused some effect in some child. This is happening to a very modest degree. It would happen if the change in drug had occurred the other way. What is most likely, so advises one paediatrician, is that there is a reaction between the little boy\u2019s long-term Ritalin and his short-term Ritalin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245391adb4df249e0a10b29ca43764065\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Is there an interesting disconnect between people arguing for improvement of productivity in the health care system and always opposing any kind of cost reductions that occur within it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1559a6635e241adae1b380284649383\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes a good point. This drug had $1 million shaved off the cost, by virtue of a tendering process. The tendering process is an effort to get competition into the drug industry. It is an effort to get value for money in the health system. Since 1998, tendering has saved $300 million. The Government does not lack ambition when it comes to getting value for health in the health system. What is more, we monitor all drug reactions to ensure that if there are any responses, there is no pattern to them. If there is a pattern to a response, then there is reconsideration\u2014on the spot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc07d2edf9c24bd2be10e57785d27052\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1d923445a0f410a950e97a728502a6d\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00224c3c8d31dc7d4ff18b7deabc4aac2466\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c3c8d31dc7d4ff18b7deabc4aac2466\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. To my right is the given leader of the National Party, Mr Key, who wants a loose fiscal policy. To my left is the other leader of the National Party, Mr English, who wants a tight fiscal policy. The leader to my right wants large tax cuts now; the other leader, to my left, wants small tax cuts later. The leader on the right wants to ditch part of the Working for Families package now, to fund those tax cuts. The other leader, to my left, wants to keep the Working for Families package. The leader on the right, the given leader of the National Party, wants to review monetary policy. The other leader, the co-leader of the National Party, the person to my left, Mr English, does not want to review monetary policy. The person on my right, Mr Key, the given leader of the National Party, is in favour of the Reserve Bank intervening in respect of exchange rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220098b1be434e44ef938cea2b55669ae3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but would members leaving the Chamber please do so quietly. Show some courtesy to the member trying to address it. Courtesy is contagious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205858b74cd154dd4b4fc50402a527c49\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: But the leader on my left does not think the Reserve Bank should have done anything like that at all. The leader on the right\u2014the fellow who says he is the real leader of the National Party, Mr Key\u2014does want taxpayer investment in broadband. The leader on the left says he does not want taxpayer investment in broadband. The leader on the right, Mr Key, the given leader of the National Party, does support 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education, and the leader on the left, the other leader of the National Party, does not want 20 hours\u2019 free education. Finally, the leader on the right, Mr Key, does want to tighten asset testing for rest homes, and the leader on the left, the numbers man, does not want to touch the asset-testing regime at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EWe have the aspirational leader and we have the numbers leader. We have the hollow man and we have the angry man. We have \u201CMr Hollow\u201D and \u201CMr Angry\u201D\u2014aspiration and numbers. That is what we have, and the divide continues to grow as they try to keep up appearances that there is no divide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EWhile all that is going on amongst two members of the National Party, from Sunday week this Government completes the roll-out of the Primary Health Care Strategy low fees programme. This is a remarkable package. This is a package that could have occurred only under a Labour Government. It could not have occurred had Annette King not started it. It could not have occurred had Helen Clark not been chair of Cabinet. It could not have occurred if the Minister of Finance had not been Dr Cullen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EOn 1 July, Sunday week, 4 million New Zealanders will find that they have access to cheap doctors\u2019 fees and, what is more, that their prescription fees fall from $15 to $3 in most cases. In most cases doctors\u2019 fees will come down by about 25 bucks, and in most cases prescriptions will come down by about 12 bucks per script. That is the difference between Labour and National. National went into the last election saying it would not do any of that. National went into the last election saying it would double the fees. National went into the last election saying it would put the prescription fees up again. That is National\u2019s policy: to reverse the single most important change in the New Zealand health system in recent times, which is cheaper access to primary health care, to general practitioner services, to practice nurses, and to all of the other people who work in the primary health care sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThe reason that matters is that better health is the result. This is not just a subsidy. This is a policy change designed to ensure New Zealanders can get access to primary health care earlier and can go to a doctor more often, should they choose. For someone who needs to go to a doctor often\u2014a person aged 65 or over, for example\u2014the savings in that household will be significant: maybe from about $800 per annum on average, down to about $350. It will depend on the superannuation couple. Generally speaking, the aim is to ensure that better primary health care is delivered to New Zealanders in a timely and affordable way. Why does that matter? Because it means that there are fewer hospitalisations or that hospitalisation is delayed. It means that the severity of conditions is reduced. It means that management of chronic disease can occur in a more reliable way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003EThis is a significant policy change in our health system. It is one that has been put in place by a Labour Government over a 7-year period, and it is one that National\u2014should it ever be elected to the Treasury benches\u2014is on the record as saying it will reverse. Of course, Mr Key and Mr English may have different views on that, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002236abbacb657b4f8889f3614d290419b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236abbacb657b4f8889f3614d290419b8\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party has been alarmed this week to hear new information about the prevalence of loan sharking inside New Zealand\u2019s casinos. The Christchurch Press on the weekend did a sterling job with its revelations of the resignation of several senior staff, of loan sharking in the casino\u2019s VIP lounge, and of allegations of irregularities in prize draws and discrepancies over gaming returns. The Press alleged that loan sharks based at the casino were charging interest rates of 6 percent a week, and that there were connections with loan sharks in Macau and with the ownership of local brothels. That was bad enough, but since then we have learnt that loan sharking is endemic in casinos around the country, and even in some class 4 venues\u2014that is, pokie parlours\u2014as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFor example, there are believed to be around 10 loan shark groups working at Skycity Casino in Auckland, both on the ground floor and in the VIP lounges. It has been reported to me that the minimum loan in the VIP area is $10,000 and that some gamblers are actually introduced to the loan shark by casino dealers. The loan shark has then visited the gambler\u2019s home to ensure that he or she has a family that can be threatened. Any default on the loan or any late payment can lead to the person, or his or her family members, becoming seriously intimidated or actually hurt. Loan sharks also target Asian students on the ground floor of the Auckland casino, where the minimum loan is $1,000 to $3,000. When some of those gamblers get into trouble with their loans, they risk being recruited as agents for the loan sharks, thereby perpetuating the cycle. It is reported that the dealers in the casinos sometimes refer gamblers to the loan sharks for help to get the money to keep them going. I have also heard that women who get badly into debt have sometimes been forced to work in massage parlours owned by loan sharks or by their associates in order to work off the debt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has serious doubts about whether the Government is taking the nature and extent of this problem seriously enough. The responsible Minister, the Hon Rick Barker, has promised that his department will investigate accounts of loan sharking at the Christchurch Casino, as recently revealed in the Press. However, that is simply not enough. In relation to the pokie venues, in February of this year the Department of Internal Affairs gaming investigations unit was criticised by the Auditor-General for doing too few audits of non-casino gaming operators. In relation to the casinos it has also been reported, again by the Press, that according to someone with many years of experience in the casino business, all the departmental inspectors do is to \u201Ccome in, eat our food (the inspectors eat for free in the casino staff canteen), read our newspaper, and then go home not having done very much\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E What is really needed is not another Department of Internal Affairs investigation but a full public inquiry, where the victims of the loan sharks and the staff and management in the casinos will have the ability to speak out freely, without fearing retribution from either the loan sharks or their employers, as the case may be. The Green Party remains concerned that perhaps the Government does not realise the nature of what it is dealing with here. The reality is that the profitability of casinos and pokie parlours comes in large part from desperate people who will do almost anything to get more cash in order to keep on gambling. All over the world gambling outlets\u2014legal and illegal\u2014are vulnerable to exploitation by criminals. Just because we are an isolated nation in the South Pacific, that does not make us any different from the rest of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Government must take action now to investigate fully what is happening with regard to loan sharking and associated criminal activity in casinos and class 4 venues. This inquiry should cover the whole gambling sector and the whole country, not just part of it\u2014and not just the Christchurch Casino. Evidence should be invited from all affected parties, and people should be able to speak in confidence and in anonymity, for obvious reasons. The Government should commit to taking all necessary actions following such an investigation, to make sure that abuses are brought to an end and that casino and pokie operators are conscientious and careful in adhering to the Gambling Act and associated regulations. Dr Cullen told this House a few weeks ago that the Government has about $115 million invested in Sky City. Pending the withdrawal of the Government from investments of such a dubious nature, the least that he and his colleagues could do is to ensure that the company and other gambling operators here foster a gambling environment that is as scrupulous as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b77f655da5574edaa5603892d118051f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b77f655da5574edaa5603892d118051f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am one of those old-fashioned politicians who believe that there should be an election to change the Government. But the more I watch Labour, the more I believe that its members have gone into Opposition already. They have gone into Opposition already, because the answer to every question about Government policy is that there is something wrong with National\u2019s policy. Dr Cullen is conducting his whole approach to economic management as if John Key and I are running the Government and he is there to try to catch us out. Well, that is what it shows. I thought Labour members were getting ready for retirement, but they have retired in their hearts and minds already. Now the principal activity of Ministers is looking at the National website to see what our policy is, so they can criticise it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI am also old-fashioned enough to believe that when Ministers say they will do something, the public have every right to expect that that is what they will do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276acd1fa8a004d06a39e5b0c48b91fb0\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The member is old-fashioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc8203b4c274047ad734b3c3f1442a6\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: I have found out that I am very old-fashioned, and I have been going around telling audiences that we have found some Government programmes that consist only of a launch. There is nothing else; there is only a launch. I found out today that there is one\u2014shared equity\u2014that consists only of four launches, and it is still not happening. The pilot is being designed, and the programme may start at the end of next year. Yet that programme was one of the centrepieces of a speech Helen Clark gave one year about the ownership society. The homeownership pilot that has not happened yet, after four launches, was the centrepiece of her ownership society. What we see day after day here is the fundamental dishonesty and hyperreality of this Government\u2014a housing pilot programme that was launched four times but still has not happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe single core benefit is apparently now in phase two. Phase one started in 1989\u2014that is when it started\u2014so phase one is 18 years long, and the benefit\u2019s introduction still has not happened. Even after having 10 years to think about it while in Opposition, and 8 years in Government, Mr David Benson-Pope, who turned a bright future into a black hole, gets up and says that it is going to happen. Well, the news for David Benson-Pope is that not even his colleagues believe him. Worse than that, they are embarrassed by his restatement of an obvious stupidity. It has failed; it will not happen; and he should stop pretending it will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EAnd the same thing applies to the tertiary education reforms. At the select committee this morning, I asked Dr Cullen a simple question. There have been 8 years of tertiary reform, which has cost $400 million to think about, so has it started yet? No! It has not started. It will start on 1 January, when the person who was putting it all together will be hopping on a plane and going back to England. The chairman of the commission that is implementing it is to retire, and Dr Cullen, as the Minister, will be leaving soon after. Tertiary reform has taken $400 million to think about, and 8 years, but nothing has happened\u2014nothing has happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EBut that is completely normal for a Government that says: \u201CFree is what you pay for\u201D. Now the \u201Cregulated standard\u201D is the new term, and what is free is the regulated standard. So the regulated standard cheeseburger is the bread\u2014it is the bun. The regulated standard is the bun, and that is free. If people want optional extras like cheese, want the bun to be warmed up, or want to have it in a box, then they are really unusual, because that is optional. People do not have to have cheese, let us remember. When we say that people have to pay for the cheese and the box, it is only because they have agreed to pay for them. If they had not agreed, they would have been given the bun with nothing in it. And the Government is going to launch that stupidity on our families! If they agree to pay for food for their children at their early childcare centres, then they will get it. If they agree to pay for food for their children who are aged 3, then they will get it. If parents do not agree to pay, their children will not get any lunch. Which parent will disagree with paying? You see, the free 20 hours policy is totally manipulative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u002231e797eaad4745759e9d49e44eea36f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231e797eaad4745759e9d49e44eea36f9\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E That was the co-leader of the National Party talking about old-fashioned values. At the end of the day it is interesting, when he talks about homeownership, to think about who sold State houses in this country. Who did it\u2014under whose steerage was it? It was under his. Who got rid of income-related rents? Who got rid of them? Bill English got rid of them\u2014\u201CW\u012Bremu P\u0101keh\u0101\u201D got rid of them. He talked about tertiary education. He was the member who was pushing make-believe diplomas and tohu. That is what he did, and he put a whole lot of people asunder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day it is fascinating to watch the two co-leaders, in the sense of the \u201Ctight and loose\u201D paradigm. At the end of the day finance is fundamental, but the member for Rangitikei would not understand. If his party talks about tax cuts at the top end, all that does is help that party\u2019s rich mates. I am fascinated that there is not a murmur. Winston was right\u2014not a murmur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cc35df42b98467690b162f8ea105076\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will use the member\u2019s full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227676bf979f6643e8a48e82a891a3dcf8\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston Peters was right. He was right in respect of the wine-box inquiry and those two people who are paying back $20 million. You know, I want to say to members of the press that if those people had been M\u0101ori, the press would have splashed the story continuously for 10 weeks. But because it is the mates of the rich, the press will not say anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI find this tussle between the two co-leaders fascinating in respect of the tax paradigm. One says that we have to tighten it. He parrots and mirrors what the great Minister of Finance, Michael Cullen, says, and he tries to copy it. That is what he tries to do. He tries to stay tight, because he knows that Michael Cullen will be remembered in this country as one of the finest and wisest financiers, even above the Rt Hon Winston Peters. The policy of Labour has been quite simple: it is fundamental that the equity and the profit-taking in this country are shared with all peoples. The economy even tells us that. But the boys at the top end would deliver tax cuts, which their friends would get. There is some simple logic in this: the money has to be taken from somewhere. So the health area, the education area, and the housing area will suffer dramatically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI wonder who works National\u2019s figures out. I was asked a question the other day by Georgina te Heuheu. She asked what I had to say about the percentage increase in M\u0101ori unemployment figures. I think the co-leaders have been advising her on how to count and add up fiscal policy. I tell her that when Labour came into Government the general unemployment rate was 121,967. Of that figure, M\u0101ori numbered 24,640, which is about 25 percent. So she had those figures wrong. She said that the figure was 30 percent when we came into Government and that it has now climbed up to 31 percent. I say to Georgina te Heuheu that the M\u0101ori unemployment rate is a lot smaller, at 8,238.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, Fonterra is really happy with this Government. It knows that M\u0101ori are big single shareholders, and they are profiting well. All the dairy farmers are getting paid out. Farming is in a strong position, and on 1 July parental leave, which I know Katherine Rich is very, very supportive of, will increase. It will go alongside the great early childcare policy that this Government has brought in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe question to ask, through the terrain of nonsense, is what National\u2019s policy is. What is it? Where is National\u2019s policy? It is nowhere. National is flip-flopping around; it really is. National voted against parental leave. That is disgraceful. People in this party and the Labour-led Government are keen on ensuring that mums and kids get a fair crack at being in a better position. At the end of the day, we have done that. So I find it fascinating that National has been tight, then loose, then maxing out on looking after the people in the upper echelon. We have increased the minimum wage seven times. National, in its time in Government, did not even increase it over a dollar. So here we have these people, who are like Tarzan swinging through the trees, talking a whole lot of rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3e301f0d9be46e6a457ae0ced59709a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3e301f0d9be46e6a457ae0ced59709a\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I just love listening to that member. No other member in the House has added more to parliamentary discussion than Parekura Horomia\u2014to the terrain of nonsense, to the matrix of dysfunction. I am hesitant to ask what \u201Ctight, loose\u201D and \u201Cmaxing out\u201D means, but I am sure the member will have an explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EBill English was right. The Government side of the House has given up, because that speech was already in the past tense. That eulogy, delivered by Parekura Horomia, discussing Michael Cullen\u2019s legacy and what he will be remembered for, is just another example of how that Government is already thinking about itself in the past tense. It is already packing its bags and imagining what it will be like in Opposition. It was the same in the select committee today. Steve Maharey thought he was in the Opposition. He started asking National members questions and was disturbed when we refused to answer him. We reminded him that his role as the Minister was to give us on that committee answers to our questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe 20 free hours policy is an example of how to spend $178 million and please nobody. I repeat: it is an example of how to spend $178 million and please nobody. Even those who are opting into the scheme are doing so reluctantly and pointing out all the problems with that policy. One of the things the Minister has refused to tell us, even though this policy is going live in only 7 working days, is how many centres have opted in. He likes to pretend that he does not know. Well, we know that those forms are sitting over in the Ministry of Education in a bit of a pile, and all the Minister has to do is have some officials count them and personally tell him how many centres are opting in and how many are not opting in. The Minister cannot tell us how many centres are opting in. He cannot tell us how many of the up to 92,000 children will actually get this service after 1 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EBut what he has confirmed to us today is that although some Kiwi parents will be angry to find out that the scheme is not being offered in their local communities, some non-residents, non-citizens, and, in some cases, long-term holidaymakers and overstayers here in New Zealand will be eligible, potentially, to get 20 free hours\u2019 early childhood education for their children. That will be salt to the wounds of parents who find they cannot get access to the scheme for their kids because they live in the wrong place\u2014a place that has no centre offering the service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne of the things the Minister fudges, of course, is this whole issue of optional charges. He pretends that some families will have a say in what the optional charge will be, and that it will be for luxuries. Actually, it will not. I have not spoken to one centre yet that is not looking at levying some kind of surcharge for a luxury. They are doing it to cover day-to-day costs, such as books\u2014like the centre that is considering putting in place a $100-a-week fee for access to reading materials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269fa3bb637d94752a5601966401e7fa0\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve always had to pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c963b24e4c7426b8ac2698ebc0e901d\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Jill Pettis might have come to Parliament to say to parents that she wants them to pay for books in early childhood education centres because they are a luxury, but over on this side of the House we believe that those kids should have access to books, and that that should be part of a quality service. And what does a \u201Cquality surcharge\u201D mean? What does a \u201C$7-a-day charge for musical appreciation\u201D mean? Does it mean that someone\u2019s child will not get access to the musical instruments, or will the classical music just be turned off when that child goes near the stereo? It is just not going to work. Centres are saying they will have to cut their costs and their quality. In some cases they have asked staff to take a pay cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8f7cf6d6824828a58bf4f7738ce310\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225998b495be94f53b841dcff3ad982d4\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: There she is over there\u2014a so-called representative of the workers of New Zealand. As a result of her Government\u2019s policy, some early childcare workers are being asked to take a pay cut. Well, that is nice, is it not? It is representative of her party at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EBack in the 2005 election campaign, members opposite promised that all 3 and 4-year-old children would get 20 free hours\u2019 early childhood education. It was a lie. I do not know anybody who would think one had to make a payment for something that was free. Those members may have a definition of free being that a payment is made. Under this Government, \u201Cfree\u201D means paying a fee. That is why those members are so dark about it. On this side of the House we know that Labour is deeply disturbed. Some Labour members are saying that this policy is a dog\u2019s breakfast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad686f30dea14a3eb977597dc0e1b233\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, I remind members that under Speakers\u2019 ruling 57/3 interjections are out of order unless they are rare and reasonable. If someone wants to make a speech, then they can take a call and do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022415febc0393f4618a7e638debfae5405\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022415febc0393f4618a7e638debfae5405\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E This is a hallmark month for Labour. It is a month in which we are going out with policy, not spin, and it is policy that we developed well before we were elected into Government in 1999. We have centrepiece policies, not just spin over substance. Our policies are good for New Zealanders, especially families, from the cradle to the grave. Everybody in New Zealand is a winner with Labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI want to talk quickly about the primary health organisation roll-out. This completes policy undertaken in 2001, with 25 to 44-year-olds now paying low-cost fees when visiting doctors. That is the end of the cake. The scheme now extends right across the age spectrum in New Zealand, and I say \u201Cwell done\u201D to Pete Hodgson for finishing this work. It has taken $2.2 billion to make this happen. National members support raising fees for doctors\u2019 visits in this age group. They said so in the last election campaign. They will do it again, and we will be out there reminding New Zealanders to be very afraid of their hollow promises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI am just getting started. In my electorate of Rotorua, we have covered the entire district with low-cost access to doctors. It is wonderful policy, not spin. Everybody can get to the doctor for half of what it cost in 1999. In 1999 it cost $50 to visit the doctor; now, in Rotorua, visits to the doctor cost $22. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EKiwiSaver begins on 1 July. People will get a $1,000 kickstart when they open an account. What a wonderful thing for New Zealand families. Young people in Ponsonby Road were asked after the Budget announcement whether they would join. \u201CI\u2019ll join up,\u201D\u2014they said\u2014\u201CI\u2019d rather start a savings scheme now than have a tax cut.\u201D That attitude is spreading like wild fire throughout New Zealand. Security in their old age and getting a savings mentality is what KiwiSaver will help people to get on 1 July. That is good for New Zealand families. It builds resilience for their children and opportunities for a secure future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E KiwiSaver adds to the superannuation scheme. It is designed as a top-up. National has already dropped hints about scrapping universal superannuation. The old-age pensioners and Grey Power remember when National cut the superannuation rates. National should come clean. If National ever gets the reins of power, people should be very afraid of what it would do to senior citizens in this country\u2014lest we forget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s policies are from cradle to the grave. From 1 July paid parental leave is rolling out even further. We have over 90 percent buy-in in this country now, and from 1 July parents are going to get an increase, from $372 per week to $391 per week. Is that not fantastic? The Opposition, and the women members in the Opposition, voted against paid parental leave. Women in New Zealand will never forget that. We women members of this Labour Government will make sure that every women\u2019s group we meet in the country will be told about the Opposition\u2019s hard-hearted approach to paid parental leave. What is wrong with parents being paid to be at home with their children until they are able to enter the workforce again if they choose to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003ENow let us go to the next aspect of cradle to the grave, which is early childhood education. The comment from the Leader of the Opposition today, that it is \u201Csomething for nothing\u201D, is simply outrageous. We are laying the best possible foundation for our young children for access to quality learning experiences, with 20 hours\u2019 free education. Paula Bennett is simply wrong on this one, and she knows it. We will make sure New Zealanders know it. This is exactly the strategy that the Opposition undertook with the primary health organisations\u2019 roll-out and low cost doctors\u2019 fees. Opposition members went around every general practitioner\u2019s surgery to say: \u201CDon\u2019t join the PHO. Stay out of it.\u201D It is the same strategy that they used then. Hello, when 30 percent of general practitioner practices in New Zealand joined the primary health organisations, the whole country tumbled and the Opposition hated it. Well, we are hearing the same rhetoric now about 20 free hours\u2019 childcare. Those centres that have joined up\u2014and good on them\u2014have done their sums; they are joining up. Once we hit the 30 percent threshold, all the centres will be in there. Who is going to benefit from this? It is going to be our children, and our children\u2019s future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc4d0d913e51423d865317f2491094c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc4d0d913e51423d865317f2491094c4\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand in this debate to deal with some of the facts, and to put them on the record when it comes to certainty of income for those centres that are opting in to the 20 free hours policy. Today I asked a question about school donations and how, if someone does not pay his or her school donation, it does not mean much and it does not have many consequences. However, if someone does not pay his or her donation to an early childhood centre, it is very clear that there is a good chance that a teacher may lose his or her job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003ELet us clarify that a little more, because I am quite happy to back this up. If, as the Prime Minister states and as the Minister states, they are funding for the minimum standard legal requirements, and we have a centre that, say, receives funding for eight teachers but has decided to have an extra teacher, it will be going above the minimum. The centre says: \u201CWe are going to ask for an optional charge or a donation from our parents to pay for that ninth teacher.\u201D If parents do not pay the charge, that teacher cannot be paid. It is as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThis Labour Government needs to front up and be honest with parents, and it certainly needs to be honest with centres. It should front up and let centres know that under the 20 free hours policy they will not have a certainty of income. Certainty of income is what they are asking for. They know how much it costs to run their businesses, and they cannot get compulsory top-ups to run their businesses on a week-by-week basis. They are relying on a donation, they are relying on an optional subsidy, and that will not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EParents want the subsidy. We make no bones about that. Who would not want a bit of extra money each week in their own pocket that they are not having to pay for childcare or childhood education? It does not take rocket science to know that. Members can ask a question in the House to try to make me look a little silly, by saying that parents want their childcare subsidised. That is not rocket science. However, it is not 20 hours free, and that is what the Labour Government promised New Zealand parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThis Labour Government clearly promised parents 20 hours free, and they will not be getting 20 hours free. Parents are now asking: \u201CWhat price will I have to pay for 20 hours free?\u201D. Parents are saying: \u201CWhat price do I have to pay for 20 hours free? Is the cost going to be the quality of the education that my children get? Is the cost of this going to be that my centre ends up having to close down?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EUK centres have recently been closing. New childcare legislation was introduced in the UK in April 2006, and we have just had a report from a UK centre that said: \u201CUnderfunding, the ban on top-up fees, and masses of regulation, prompted me to make the decision to close.\u201D It is happening in the UK. This Government needs to take a lesson from it and not see our sector going in the same direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EParents are saying: \u201CWell, if I pay my optional extra or a donation am I going to be subsidising another parent next to me, who does not pay?\u201D. The payment is not compulsory. How fair is it that some parents will pay the optional extra or a donation, but others will not? Why should those parents subsidise each other? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EThis Labour Government promised parents 20 hours free for all 3 and 4-year-olds, and it is not delivering it. That is a travesty, and it will come back to bite the Government. Parents are asking: \u201CAt what cost will I have to pay for 20 hours free? Will that cost be that I pay more for my under-threes? Will that cost mean that other parents perhaps who have under-3-year-olds are going to pay more for their 2-year-olds, so that I can get 20 hours subsidised from this Government?\u201D. That ain\u2019t going to be a cost that they will be prepared to bear for long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003EWill there be a place for part-time education and care as centres move away from sessional care and into full-time care because that is the only way they can make this subsidy work? This Labour Government professes to care about those people who are disadvantaged and those people who are underclassed. This policy does not work for those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00221bfecdf0349b4e9a9e1a163387d9c282\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bfecdf0349b4e9a9e1a163387d9c282\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E One of the roles that United Future, as a modern centre party, seeks to perform is to hold the major parties in this Parliament to account. One of the other roles we seek to perform also is to ensure that when policy solutions to major issues are proposed, they are not in the nature of a knee-jerk or instant reaction. When we look at the current debate around housing affordability in New Zealand, we see many of those knee-jerk elements to policy being applied and offered as panaceas for the crisis that we face, particularly in terms of young people having access to their first home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIn this regard I refer particularly to the comments made last week by the Governor of the Reserve Bank in his submission to the Commerce Committee\u2019s inquiry into housing, advocating the introduction of a capital gains tax. That is something we totally oppose. Capital gains taxes are unfair, they are largely unworkable, they are distortionary, and they will not achieve the objectives that the governor might seek for them in respect of the housing market in New Zealand. Other measures that have been floated over the last few months come into the same category. Members will recall the mortgage surcharge proposal that was floated a few months ago. Equally, I have to say that I am far from convinced about the merits of ring-fencing tax losses on properties, for the same reasons that the distortion they create is far greater than the mischief they resolve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhat lies at the heart of all these issues is that the short-term \u201Clet\u2019s have a simple solution\u201D approach outweighs the need to get to the bottom of the fundamental issue. In this instance I think that the big issue we are grappling with and need to confront is the way in which monetary policy is operated at the present time. We have a situation of an overvalued dollar because of high domestic interest rates, which are being imposed by the governor because he wants to curb domestic economic growth. All that does is simply to fuel more foreign investment, more growth, and higher interest rates. The difficulty is that the mechanism that we have adopted for the last 22 years, since the dollar was floated and since the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act was introduced in the late 1980s, is a reliance on the interest rate mechanism as the way to control inflation. There are other steps available to the governor. I believe that what the current debate ought to be focusing on is the adequacy of existing mechanisms and whether other steps can be employed to equal effect. I refer to the ratios of cash that the banks have to hold back as an example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe danger we face at this stage is that if we do not have that wider debate, we put in place a series of short-term measures that will ultimately prove to be ineffective and that will only ensure that at some point in the future we will have to unwind them and start all over again. I see the inquiry that the Finance and Expenditure Committee has decided to undertake into the operation of monetary policy as being a critical exercise here. It is very important that that committee is able to have a full and proper discussion of the issues, and is able to make some considered recommendations to the Parliament about the way forward. That debate is not being helped by some of the situations we are seeing at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI respect the autonomy of the Governor of the Reserve Bank; I respect his right to express his views. But the difficulty I have with the way in which the debate is being conducted is that, essentially, it is being sensationalised, and individual aspects of a package are being presented as total answers to a particular problem. That will not work. United Future will ensure to the best extent we are able that when we are looking at all of these issues, the totality of the issue is under consideration, not simply some of the symptoms around the edges. I know that my colleague the Minister of Finance and members from the other side of the House have been involved in discussion, and I think that process should be allowed to continue and to mature. But I do not want to see it hijacked by some of these short-term, external interventions\u2014these knee-jerk reactions\u2014that are being proposed, which simply ensure that nothing of substance will eventuate. So as we grapple with the problems of an overheated housing market, and an exchange rate that simply seems to show no signs of wanting to lie down and take a bit of a rest for a while, we need to take a more comprehensive approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf8c0a0d77d344fd855b59fa080dad78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf8c0a0d77d344fd855b59fa080dad78\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E 1 July will be a very significant date for the people of New Zealand. It will be a very significant date for this Government as we deliver on promises that we have made and policies that we have developed over time, and 1 July will go down as a red-letter day for many, many New Zealanders who will, for the first time, be able to take up a number of opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EIn the short time I have I want to highlight a couple of those. I will deal first with our health policy and the primary health organisations. First of all, the cost to families of visits to the doctor will be cut in half. From 1 July all New Zealanders will be able to access affordable doctors\u2019 visits and prescription drugs. This is a historic achievement that only a Labour-led Government could deliver. We have invested $2.2 billion to make primary health care affordable for all families. This investment has reduced doctors\u2019 fees by around $25 and has lowered standard prescription charges from $15 to $3. Three million New Zealanders are already benefiting from lower fees, and they will be joined by people in the 25 to 44-year age group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003ENearly 4 million New Zealanders are now enrolled in primary health organisations. I do not want to shy away from the figures because they are significant, and I want to return to them at the end of my 5-minute call. Since last October primary health organisation practices that have agreed to maintain very low fees received additional funding. From 1 July this year that top-up will increase from 15 percent to 17.5 percent. This very low-cost access initiative currently involves 23 percent of primary health organisation practices and it benefits over 900,000 people. That is a lot of people, and many of those have high needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EFrom 1 July a major milestone will be reached when the final stage of our $2.2 billion funding roll-out will take effect and apply to 25 to 44-year-olds. Standard consultation fees charged by very low-cost access practices will remain very low, at $15.50 for adults\u2014that is, 18 years and over\u2014and $10.50 for children aged 6 to 17 years. Fees will remain zero for children under the age of 6. Further funding announcements in primary health care can be anticipated later in this calendar year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWe have listened to more volume than content from the National Party contributions to this general debate this afternoon. It is legitimate for us, as a Government, to ask where those members\u2019 alternative policies are, because all we get is a ringing silence every time we ask. What are the Opposition\u2019s priorities in the health sector? Currently, as I understand it, National members are going around the country, trying to pick up some ideas so that they can develop a health policy and policies in other areas, because they have none of their own. Basically, they weigh positions of interest groups for vote weight and, if they think something weighs in well, then they will probably adopt it. Never mind if it is not the right thing, the fair thing, the compassionate thing, or the durable thing to do, they will just weigh the votes and then write it into their policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EWill National members raise the cost of going to the doctor? Will that be one of their promises? Will they raise the cost of prescription drugs? Will that be one of their promises? In early childhood education, which is another policy area entirely and has been the subject of debate in the last few minutes, will they take away 20 free hours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022b403090244ea4ce7aeeff9a5727f2fa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b403090244ea4ce7aeeff9a5727f2fa9\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E 18 June will go down as a \u201Cblue-letter day\u201D from the point of view of National, and for all those people who will gain enormously from skills and trades being reintroduced into our curriculum. Only a National Government will be able to achieve this, because effectively we have witnessed over the last 8 years successive Labour Ministers of Education presiding over this portfolio, standing by, watching, and wringing their hands as the technology curriculum has descended into an abyss of confusion and theory. It has become the subject where one can actually draw a scone but can never get to bake it, and is described as being able to write how to make a cart but never being able to build it. The rhetoric of this Government around its educational aims, its glib answers, is overwhelming, and it gives me pleasure to inform the Government that New Zealanders are no longer prepared to swallow that level of rubbish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt amazes me how a Government can deny New Zealanders and rob them of confidence and self-belief. We do not have to look too far afield to see just what a positive Government can achieve in Australia, for instance. Yet on this side of the Tasman we can see clearly that this Government prides itself on denying people their self-reliance and self-belief. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EOn that basis I wish to congratulate the leader of the National Party, John Key, on the form and measure in which he articulated the comments about introducing trades back into schools. It is very pertinent because we have seen such an abysmal performance from this Government. What did John Key, the leader of the National Party, say? He said: \u201CIt\u2019s time to put hands-on, trades and industry training back into the heart of our [education] system. The National Part has a vision of doing this and of achieving this.\u201D Let us contrast this sort of thing with the shameful legacy of Labour. Each week, 30,000 youth are absent from schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa7e1423cfa04c7aaa0b5d2802e7b224\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a00b41940d57445cb6818076f27429f9\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: There are 30,000 children not attending schools. It is very interesting when we ask questions of the Minister as to the Government\u2019s solutions for that. Those members say: \u201CWe\u2019re implementing a range of policies.\u201D It is a bit like saying the cheque is in the mail. When we look at the granting of exemptions from school before the official leaving-age, we see there were 4,000 last year. One in five children is not achieving level 1 of the National Certificate in Educational Achievement (NCEA). But probably the most disappointing performance from Labour, and horrifying fact for all New Zealanders, is that 53 percent of M\u0101ori boys do not achieve level 1 in NCEA. So Labour\u2019s legacy around education is quite shameful. It has forgotten about an enormous part of New Zealand\u2019s young. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWhat was John Key\u2019s message about this urgently needed change? It was this: \u201CWe need to do a better job of exposing students early on to some of the hands-on industries that might fire up their appetite for education.\u201D I can assure members that the message going around and the message given to us at meetings with various educational experts, is that teachers are crying out for methods to engage children. I would just like to make the point that we should not think that because somebody is interested in Macbeth, he or she will not be equally stimulated by trades and hands-on skills at school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003ESo what will National do? National will make it clear that schools must provide students with opportunities to learn practical, hands-on skills. It is as simple as that. After all this blather around the edges\u2014social conversations and so on\u2014what have we got? We have a disaster. Principals at these secondary schools are telling us to get the feel of the size of the resulting crisis. These are some of the ways they describe the shortage of technology teachers: \u201Ca nightmare\u201D, \u201Ca major problem\u201D, \u201Calmost impossible\u201D, \u201Ca significant problem that will get worse not better\u201D, \u201Cdire\u201D and \u201Cthe death knell for the technology learning area\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00226d9f5ec4eeaa46389883db66a904f954\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d9f5ec4eeaa46389883db66a904f954\u0022\u003ESHANE JONES (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Assistant Speaker. It is a pleasure to rise and take a short call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EYesterday my colleague Lianne Dalziel spoke at length about the development, promotion, and introduction of a new framework that will give people greater confidence when they pursue the KiwiSaver opportunity that their resources, funds, and savings will not be raided or vandalised. I stand with a great deal of pride after yesterday\u2019s speech, and following Winston Peters and my senior colleague Lianne Dalziel, in sending a message to New Zealanders that, yes, we have a new savings scheme. That savings scheme will be bound by a robust set of frameworks, an enhanced set of rules and laws to deal with the security laws, so that people will not have to live through the heartache, shame, and embarrassment of the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EYesterday Mr Bill English had an opportunity to stand, attack, and criticise the criminal wrongdoing associated with Michael Fay and David Richwhite, and his silence was thunderous. The burden of his shame was palpable given the very subdued speech he made. We should never forget that during that period\u2014shameful in our recent history\u2014when corporate larceny was at large, members of the National Party had an opportunity to correct matters. They chose not to do so. So I give Lianne Dalziel full marks for bringing forward this bill, which will be referred to our select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EYesterday Mr Winston Peters was reliving a bit of history. He reminded members of the House\u2014us younger members\u2014and members of the public, about the ravaging damage that was visited upon honest families, shareholders, ordinary toiling Kiwis, as a consequence of the rorts that were allowed to prevail in the 1990s. He reminded us that we must never ever allow individuals such as Fay, Richwhite, and their ilk to believe that they are either more elite or, because of their wealth, in a higher class or entitled to dip into the public purse to enrich themselves. I give full marks to Mr Peters for having also given some momentum to these new rules and laws that are soon to materialise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhen I think of Mr Fay I am reminded of the meaning of the word \u201Cfey\u201D. \u201CFey\u201D means someone who has an interest in the supernatural or someone who is fated to die, is doomed. The people who were doomed were the honest New Zealanders whose shareholdings and minority interests were rorted and thrown on to the scrap heap of impoverishment as a consequence of what happened to our rail industry. We must never forget that, or that members of the National Party\u2014who had an opportunity to challenge and correct that\u2014were absolutely silent. The deputy leader yesterday stood like a broken, subdued figure and struck a pathetic stance. Boy, I hope New Zealanders never ever forget that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere is another interesting thing about Mr Richwhite. And I must say I have never had so many emails and calls. Of course, one steps with trepidation outside this House to speak in quite the candid manner I have enjoyed the opportunity to do here. Someone who can write out a cheque for $600 million and still have $50 million in the bank is someone to be regarded with a fair degree of caution. But where I come from in Tai Tokerau there are two things at a place called Ng\u0101wh\u0101. One is the thermal pool\u2014and in that thermal pool, apparently, is a taniwha\u2014and the other is a jail. There is an empty jail cell, and on top of that jail cell is a sign that says \u201CRich white\u201D because that jail is full of our people\u2014young M\u0101ori males. Whatever their wrongdoing may be, the costs that they represent in terms of their wrongdoing pale into insignificance in relation to what Fay and Richwhite did to the reputation of our nation, to the confidence of families and ordinary, honest Kiwis in the capital markets and in the savings industry. Thank goodness we will have a set of laws and a set of frameworks that give people the confidence to move away from our fascination with housing and put their resources into KiwiSaver, which will be a Kiwi saver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ded2921e53549559433fcb5fc22d25b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ded2921e53549559433fcb5fc22d25b\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is an honour to follow my colleague Shane Jones from the far north, who spent most of his speech attacking the deputy leader of the National Party for not putting up what he would describe as a strong defence of National\u2019s policies in the 1990s. I would remind the member that while he was in the United States studying at university in the 1980s, we had a Labour Government in this country, and that Government described the main industry in the area that the member comes from as a sunset industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWe know when a Government is in its dying hours. We know because the only thing its members can do is to get up and attack a Government that was in power 9 years ago. They cannot promote any of their own policies. They are absolutely bereft of new ideas. Their programme is completed, and they have run out of new ideas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhen we look across at that tired Government, what do we see? We look across at the Hon Parekura Horomia and we know that consciousness is that annoying time between naps. That is what we see. When we look at the Hon Steve Maharey we know, as the Hon Steve Maharey says: \u201CI have a degree in liberal arts, and of course I know that manual labour is the Mexican Prime Minister. Of course I know that.\u201D Then we look and we see the Hon Dr Michael Cullen staring back at the Opposition, and we know that the Hon Dr Michael Cullen said in his maiden speech: \u201CI ripped the farmers off then, and I will get stuck into them again over the next few years.\u201D And over the next few years, he most certainly did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhen we look at forestry, our third largest export industry in this country, what do we see as a legacy of this Government, particularly for the area of the previous speaker? What do we see? We see, for the first time in 50 years, deforestation. What do we see in the area of Minister Burton from Taupo, an area that is very, very dependent on the forestry industry? We see deforestation, for the first time in 50 years. What do we see? What do the figures tell us? In 1999, 68,000 new hectares of trees were planted. In 2006, the figure was minus 15,000 hectares; 15,000 more hectares were felled in 2006 than were planted. That is deforestation and it is an absolutely atrocious track record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWho is the Minister of Forestry? The Minister is the Hon Jim Anderton. He is a sunset industry Minister, that is for sure, or is he just a sunset Minister in a tired Government? Poor old Jim Anderton does not know whether to throw his hat off or to just move away and retire. The Hon Jim Anderton is clearly one of those sunset Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI would ask this Government to look at what it is doing to some of our major export earners, such as the forest industry. It should look at what Labour did to those industries in the 1980s and learn from its mistakes. It should not rake up something that it thinks might be harmful to the National Party. The Government should tell us what it will do about its abysmal track record in the time it has been in office. It should tell us what it will do towards introducing something like personal freedom\u2014one of the cornerstones of the National Party. This Government should tell us what it will do to give all people a fair go, because what we have seen so far is the major economic drivers of this country on their back legs, going nowhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EUnder this Government we have seen things that one cannot do. One of things people learn in this place when they come here is not only what one stands for but also what one stands against. We have seen from Labour Governments time and time again that they are consummate Opposition politicians. They are in Opposition even when they are in Cabinet. Their tools are petrol and matches, whereas National Party members generally come from a background where they have been builders, where they make things happen, and where they show people how to better their lives and to go forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhat we see now, in the last 6 months of this dying Government, is an Opposition in the making. Labour members are honing their Opposition skills. They know what they stand against; they are good at what they stand against. They have always been good at what they stand against. But if we ask them what they stand for, we will get a desert, because there is nothing. They know that they stand against, for example, therapeutic medicines. They will not have them; they are going to regulate them out of business. They are absolutely opposed to complementary medicine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b99039abf1f493da0a7a018445f7a3d\u0022\u003ESocial Security Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022572d2d1575a04cccbebad8406408a95c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000353\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 15 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223663713d983d46f7a9f999419a5538b1\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221dd78725d212461e8f1f57144ef34420\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eeb48d11b2454a53b04a7c5c1dc25c02\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eadc08e7dfb24221bf4ead5c2dc611be\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ce78e200ce0468fbb8e558653d85530\u0022\u003ESchedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002274660a5121c04c04b156763a6586cb4f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dce5b4e40e804562befae085b8370674\u0022\u003ESchedule 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a3c9d96c0ab74a45977c8deb52780989\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That schedule 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227799fe2da4c349d0b68ac0651c98b5e0\u0022\u003ESchedule 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3965b294d4b4c999dc44311fc5fbf4b\u0022\u003EClauses 1, 2, and 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7e7a25c22e14f06b3c1a5cb980fc7d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7e7a25c22e14f06b3c1a5cb980fc7d4\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E The Social Security Amendment Bill we are debating today, and that we have been debating for the last few weeks, is a bill that could possibly be more properly called the \u201CSingle Core Benefit (Phase One) Bill\u201D. I say that, because this is a bill that brings in an amendment that the single core benefit was supposed to bring about\u2014effectively, a work requirement for some people, whether they were sick or simply under-employed, whether or not they wished to work, and whether or not they could work. Given that this Labour Government has been talking in various stages since 1989 about the single core benefit, I think that we could just hold off putting this bill through and instead wait for phase two, which we have been promised since 1989.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EA huge amount of money has been spent on resourcing and doing the policy work behind this bill. A huge amount of work has been put together. In fact, it is so huge that the current Minister and the previous Minister have been incapable of listing the number of reports on the single core benefit or its progress because, apparently, to do so would require a great deal of manual collation. Apparently it would require so much manual collation that those reports cannot be counted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe support some parts of this bill. We support the idea that those who can work should work, if they are to be recipients of benefits under the social welfare system. However, we do think that some things could change. We are a little bit worried that some people who are genuinely incapable of working, and who are genuinely unable to participate in the workforce, will feel they need to try to work even if they simply cannot. That is something that people have certainly spoken to us about at the Social Services Committee. We have received submissions from various groups, including IHC New Zealand, that felt that if people did not work, then under this bill, if it goes through, they would be noted as simply not contributing. People can contribute to the community in lots of ways; paid work is certainly one of them and raising children well is certainly another. In fact, in my opinion the most important contribution people can make to the community is to raise their children well. But they can also contribute by helping out others, by helping those who are less well-off, and by working with children in a voluntary way. All of those things are commendable activities that can be supported as contributing to the greater community and the greater good. We think the concept of \u201Cwork first\u201D is good, but we also think it needs to be looked at from the point of view of what people can actually do. We do not want this to be a country where those who simply cannot work in the paid workforce feel they are not valued, and feel they are not able to contribute in some other way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe are also very concerned to see that the \u201Cactivity in the community\u201D programme, which we think could have been developed properly but which has not been, under this Government\u2014it has in fact been ignored and under-resourced\u2014will not be taken seriously under this bill, and we think that that is a real shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe would like to see phase two put in, though, so that we can see this bill in its entirety. Phase two, which is what we now call the single core benefit, is about amalgamating seven main working-age benefits into one and calling it a single core benefit with multiple add-ons. How will that work with this bill? We think it is somewhat premature to have one without the other. Given that we have been waiting since 1989 for the single core benefit, and that this Government has been in power for almost 8 years, one would think that we could have had some idea about when the single core benefit will happen. Instead, we hear constantly from the Minister that apparently Cabinet will look at it either later this year or next year. It is always in election year that something is going to be looked at. Just like the housing policy and everything else, it is always going to be announced, going to be launched, and going to be the newest thing. Particularly when Mr Steve Maharey is in the ministerial role, it is going to be the most fantastic and outlandishly exciting scheme that has ever been seen. But what happens? As soon as the election is over Labour members forget all about it and say they are going to look at another phase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo we will now have this new part of our vocabulary in Parliament\u2014phase two. Phase two means the bit of the bill, the bit of the policy, that is promised but that, frankly, cannot be done because, first, the Government does not have the votes to do it. We know that there is no appetite in this Parliament anywhere, except on the front-bench of the Labour Party, to amalgamate seven main working-age benefits into one benefit and call it a single core benefit. We know that nobody in the Greens wants that. We certainly know that the National Party does not want that. We know that the M\u0101ori Party does not want that. We know that actually nobody wants it, except the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022 data-id=\u00222f03162c204e44158c57c31c2743a310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f03162c204e44158c57c31c2743a310\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to speak on the title and commencement of the Social Security Amendment Bill, following my colleague Judith Collins\u2019 excellent discussion of the never-ending planning and discussion phase of the single core benefit. Perhaps we should have called this bill something like the \u201CSocial Security (Pre - Single Core Benefit) Amendment Bill\u201D, or the \u201CSocial Security (Phase One and a Half) Amendment Bill\u201D because we have had phase one and we are looking forward to phase two. We are not quite sure where it is at. We seem to be dealing with amendments to the social security legislation in a piecemeal fashion, prolonged by this Labour Government\u2019s interminable fiddling with the unemployment benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EWe are told that this bill will focus on changes for youth, and that the goal is to have all 15 to 19-year-olds either in employment, in training, or in an educational institution of some sort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223598b9e5492441f8951c6a3604faaa7a\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: In prison!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb301d1f1de4fdba6f0cedb13e1f49c\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Hopefully, not in prison. Yet we find that according to the household labour force survey 27,000 youth are unemployed. So they are not in employment, they are not in any form of sensible training, and they are not in an educational institution. That number has grown under this Government by just about 10,000. We have to ask this Minister, the Hon David Benson-Pope, what this bill will do to get those 27,000 youth into either employment, training, or education. I have looked through the bill and listened to the debate in the House, and I really cannot see anything stunning that will move those figures in the opposite direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EWe are told that this bill focuses on providing the right services and support for people to enable them, where appropriate, to find, or move towards finding, employment. I ask the Minister what that actually means. I know there are sanctions in this bill for those for whom work is made available but who do not turn up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that I recently got some figures from a kiwifruit pack-house in my electorate that had provided people on the unemployment benefit with work. The employer tells me that the work provided would be for approximately 9 months of the year. I would have thought that was pretty good. There are plenty of career opportunities in the kiwifruit industry. Good training is provided, and there are footsteps through to some excellent prospects of full-time work. This pack-house provided me with some statistics that it had kept on the workers that WINZ had provided it with. Twenty-one names were provided and there was an 18-week course of employment, which began with 2 weeks\u2019 training. Let me say that by the end of those 18 weeks, out of those 21 people, in the last week one worked 11\u00BD hours, two worked 8\u00BD hours, and the rest were no-shows. When one looks through the 18 weeks, one sees that the no-shows grow, and grow, until, as I say, by the end 18 out of 21 people are not bothering to turn up for work. After all the training that had been put into them, after the company had provided vehicles to go round and pick people up from their homes\u2014the drivers knocked on people\u2019s doors, waking them up sometimes\u2014many of them said the work was too hard and they could not be bothered. In many cases they were just not prepared to take part in any work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003EThe question I have for the Minister in the chair is what sanctions will be placed on those people through this bill. I rather suspect, having read through the bill, having listened to the expert advice from the officials, and having listened to some of the submissions that were made, that the sanctions are very sparsely applied. Certainly, none of those people were sanctioned by WINZ, despite very good evidence that they had not bothered to turn up. Two of them had not bothered to turn up from day one. Four of them did not bother to turn up from week two, and the numbers just grew. I would really like the Minister to tell us just what in this bill will address the issue of people who are offered good jobs with good training, good career prospects, and the possibility of working for 9 months of the year in a good industry, but just do not bother to turn up for work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022624a2cf89ed44fc88b497bbda1bb8507\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022624a2cf89ed44fc88b497bbda1bb8507\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to respond immediately to the previous speaker. I would be very surprised if those people were not sanctioned. How that member would ever know what action Work and Income\u2014by the way, it is Work and Income; there is no such thing as that other acronym she was using, and there has not been for some years\u2014has taken is beyond me. But I can assure her that if she were to give me the details of the employer and the names of those concerned, I would check that that was the case, because there is no need to introduce sanctions in this bill around work testing. That exists right now, and that does not change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does do, though, is to mandate the success that is already happening out there in our communities. It is the sort of success that has led to the extraordinary numbers that I have canvassed for the House previously, such as the stunning reduction we have seen in unemployment benefits received in this country since National left the Treasury benches. Just to remind those people who did not hear the figures on unemployment at question time, I say that in 1999 the number of unemployed in this country was 161,000 and a bit. As of May this year, that number is just over 24,000. That is an extraordinary change. The most pleasing change, of course, as part of that\u2014as members of the House know\u2014is the huge reduction in youth unemployment, from 17,500 in 1999 when the National Party was last in Government to around 1,200 now receiving benefits. It is always good to have the opportunity to compliment the professionalism and work of our front-line people in Work and Income\u2014that is Work and Income, not \u201CWINZ\u201D, I say to Mrs Tolley\u2014and I do that again. If we couple that success with the policy initiatives of this Government, such as Working for Families, we do get a very powerful force for good in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI want to quickly share with the Committee two of those success stories. Both of these young people are happy for me to use their names, but I will stay with using only their Christian names. Brodie, from Gore, is 19, and he began to receive a sickness benefit in January 2007. Brodie was keen to find employment, and he worked closely with his case manager to determine his skills and his appropriate job opportunities. The case manager liaised with a local ground-spraying business and secured an interview for Brodie. Work was begun with that firm at the end of March, and Brodie is still successfully employed there. Brodie finds the job very rewarding and the new opportunities available are welcomed. He no longer receives benefit support, which he had been receiving previously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThen there is Natelle, from Whakat\u0101ne. Natelle is a sole parent; she has a child. She had been receiving the domestic purposes benefit for 14 months. After her case manager explained the benefits of Working for Families to her, Natelle was quite motivated to find employment. With the assistance of her case manager, she did that. She found a part-time position working 20 hours a week at a childcare centre, and was able to cancel her benefit in March 2007. With Natelle\u2019s part-time wage and Working for Families assistance, she now earns $117.52 more a week than she did when she was receiving the domestic purposes benefit. She is, understandably, pretty pleased to be working and enjoying the financial benefits that Working for Families, coupled with Working New Zealand\u2014the new employment initiatives of Work and Income\u2014are providing for her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThat is what this legislation is about. I have said that this legislation mandates what is already happening out there. Since 1 April this year the Working New Zealand regime\u2014the new service approach\u2014has been the way that people operate in all Work and Income front-line offices. People who come through the door, whether they are new and in need assistance, or whether they are on a regular rotational check from their case managers, are receiving a level of support that was previously available only to people in receipt of the unemployment benefit. It is a simple equation, actually, because one can understand how busy Work and Income staff were when they had to cope with 161,000 people who were looking for jobs that were not there under the political regime of our predecessors. Now, that human capacity, and the skills that have been further enhanced, of Work and Income staff are available to all beneficiaries, irrespective of the class of support they are receiving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThat is a very powerful shift. It is a shift that is showing incredible results. It is a shift that is about supporting people, not punishing them, and that support works for the good of the people in this country. I know most New Zealanders would welcome a continuation of the sort of success that we have already demonstrated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022 data-id=\u00223784c0d7de304c638c02cf2ec6edcf1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223784c0d7de304c638c02cf2ec6edcf1e\u0022\u003EKATRINA SHANKS (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the Committee stage of the Social Security Amendment Bill. This bill amends the original Social Security Act 1964, which was the principal Act. In fact, the 1964 Act consolidated and amended the Social Security Act of 1938 and its amendments. In essence, the title \u201CSocial Security\u201D has been consistently applied from 1938 until today, in 2007. However, we must consider whether the title is as relevant now as it was then, in 1938. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EIn short, the 1938 Act provided for the payment of superannuation benefits, and other benefits designed to safeguard the people of New Zealand from disabilities arising from age, sickness, widowhood, orphanhood, unemployment, and some other things. It goes on to say that it will provide a system whereby medical and hospital treatment will be made available to persons requiring such treatment, and provide such other benefits as may be necessary to maintain and promote the health and general welfare of the community. Thus the 1938 Act was considered \u201Csocial security\u201D. Let me fast track to 2007. The general policy statement in the explanatory note states: \u201CIt puts into effect the Working New Zealand: Work-Focused Support package of proposals to reform the social support system.\u201D So we have now changed from \u201Csocial security\u201D to \u201Csocial support\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThe objectives of the new bill are to \u201Cincrease opportunities for people to participate in the labour market, where work is an appropriate outcome; and [to] continue to provide social and financial support for people with temporary or long-term barriers to work.\u201D The fact is that there is significant change between the Act of 1938 and the bill of 2007, and their relevance to where we are today in our society. The original Act that provided social security was directed to those people of New Zealand who were disabled due to age, sickness, widowhood, or orphanhood. But now we use words such as \u201Cincreased opportunities to enter the labour market where work is an appropriate outcome\u201D. Somewhere along the way we have lost the focus of what social security is about. Social security is now about the acceptance of those who choose a lifestyle of not entering the workforce, in some instances. Has our society moved so far from that objective, in this bill, that it has to be to begin the movement towards a work-focused system for some people, who we know can go back to work but choose not to? I believe we have moved away from providing a safety net for those in need through sickness, age, and circumstances beyond their control. We should be questioning how an intergenerational choice not to work has become so acceptable to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EI reviewed the assistance provided by our social security system, and there are 45 grants, allowances, and benefits available. In many cases, a person can apply for at least half a dozen of these allowances. Let me give an example. A person who has a family may be eligible for: childcare subsidy, out-of-school care and recreation subsidy, family assistance, recoverable assistance payment, child disability allowance, advance payment of benefit, home help, temporary additional support, care supplement, and the special-needs grant. That is a total of 10 grants, benefits, or allowances for which the family may be eligible. This bill is right in saying the objective has moved to social support. This bill takes away a person\u2019s independence of the State and the ability to stand on his or her own two feet. The legislation no longer provides an invaluable safety net but introduces a level of interference in people\u2019s lives. Instead of just getting on and living, they have to justify to a Government agency what they are doing, how they are doing it, and how often they are doing it. They are losing choices in their lives. They are justifying, to strangers, what they are doing in their homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThis legislation has moved significantly since 1938, from social security to social support. Our expectations for people\u2019s contributions to our society have been watered down. The State now plays a major role in many people\u2019s lives. Independence and the desire to help themselves have been slowly eroded. With this erosion comes a state of dependence: a lowering of expectations and the standard of living, and, eventually a lack of self-esteem and confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003EThis bill legislates for things that most New Zealanders presumed Work and Income already did\u2014that is, helping New Zealanders into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f08bf78a4b2b41f99335543ecc845d62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f08bf78a4b2b41f99335543ecc845d62\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The title of this bill reflects once again the morass that is the Social Security Act 1964, as amended once again. Various parts of this Act have been amended literally dozens of times since 1994\u201454 times at my last count, which may well be an underestimate. It is way past time that this antique mosaic of fragmented law change was thrown out and a new Social Security Act written. Rather than amending it piece by piece, we should be starting again with a comprehensive law based on principles of simplicity, equity, and sufficiency. All the brave talk of the universal core benefit starting in 2000 led some of us to believe that we might conceivably see such a new, streamlined Social Security bill by 2007 or 2008, but it is manifestly not to be, and random amendments like the one we have before us today continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI feel that this particular rendition deserves its own unique title, not the ubiquitous Social Security Amendment Bill, which has, as usual, been applied. Given the new direction in which the Government is now sending the welfare system, perhaps this little number could be more rightfully called the \u201CWork First, Welfare Last Bill\u201D. After all, this is the overarching tenor of the changes contained in the purposes and principles provisions. As I have pointed out in earlier debates on this bill, although there are good features to this legislation and I do not want to disrespect them\u2014for example, the reduction in the length of the stand-down period, and some beneficial changes to the domestic purposes benefit\u2014there is an underpinning problem with the new interpretation of welfare provided in clause 23. As Louise Humpage and Susan St John said in an article in the New Zealand Herald last week, this bill \u201Cwipes away any notion that our social security system is about ensuring everyone can participate as citizens.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EGetting as many beneficiaries as possible into the paid workforce as quickly as possible now appears to be the primary purpose of the welfare system, which is a long way from the original 1938 Act and from the recommendations of the two royal commissions on social security in 1972 and 1988. This new direction for welfare means that people with long-term and major injuries, illnesses, and disabilities will be subject to the same planning for employment requirements as are sole parents, as will their spouses or partners, even when they are in a primary-carer role. The problem with this is not that these people now have access to employment services\u2014I think that is great and I welcome this change in approach by the department\u2014but that the overall sense is that the only kind of work that is valued by this society is paid work, not, for example, the work of caring for children, if the person is the primary carer of those children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EEven worse, should a more conservative Government come to power, this bill, ironically promoted by a Labour-led Government, will make it very easy for a Government to introduce and implement things like forced work for the dole, not only for unemployed people but also for those on the domestic purposes benefit, invalids benefit, and sickness and emergency benefits. If that is not a policy of the National Party, I would really welcome clarification from National members, at any time, as to what their welfare policy is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWork first and welfare as a last resort is where this bill takes our social security system, which is why a title along those lines would be more appropriate. The Green Party will continue to oppose this bill, not because we do not support some of its more beneficial changes but because its overarching purpose is to take our welfare system in a direction over time that is likely to become more and more harmful to those most affected, especially if, and when, we again enter a major recession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204faf07454f84f1b8bf042a95f268c90\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000390\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 114 in the name of the Hon David Benson-Pope to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002226c88c058cbc4e3c888a55cefbecdbfe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022779ce4c4072548a8a56a3812926f2654\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002222d783bc0b05451cb0f34fd0ed8481fe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 58\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000391\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cdfa7ff111d4095968835351516e1d6\u0022\u003EState-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022189d54b8a2f348089e547995ff6f18f2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000394\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 24 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ec01a41069b4f3b80d13c10a5f8b2c7\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1141a15d3a444848242c6f022437259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1141a15d3a444848242c6f022437259\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I am keen to get some answers in relation to some questions that I raised in the first reading of the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill. You see, there are a number of things I do not understand, and there are things that I need to get my head around in terms of some quite significant issues that concern not only the meat industry but the way in which we conduct an assurance programme, because that is what these two companies, AgriQuality and Asure, are responsible for. There is also an issue in respect of contract work with the Animal Health Board, and my colleague the Hon David Carter has tabled a Supplementary Order Paper on that, which I am sure we will be talking to later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIn the first reading of this particular bill I asked the Minister to outline why these two companies needed to be merged, and why we were debating this legislation. National intends to oppose the legislation unless good reasons are given as to why this is the best way forward. I say to the Minister Trevor Mallard that the two elements that we need to have identified\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d83833223e454ca18042107c3fe25366\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The member intends to oppose it anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228220ffebe72b46b3a6f3756389b12f7d\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister should just listen to the question. He needs to explain why this is happening, then assure us that a merger is the best way of resolving that problem. Those are the first two points that we would like some answers on. Let us be quite clear that New Zealand is totally reliant on a robust system that gives assurance that we comply with the Codex Alimentarius code of practice, and that the products that we export are safe, wholesome, and, as I say, meet all of the requirements of Codex Alimentarius. I do not think there is any doubt in regard to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that we need to be assured that removing competition will improve the service or bring about some cost savings. I say to the Minister that this is where I am totally confused, because if I read the explanatory note of the bill as it was introduced, I see that at the end of the second paragraph it states: \u201CThe Government wishes to prevent this competition from occurring as it considers that it would result in a net cost to the Crown as the owner of both AgriQuality and Asure.\u201D I ask the Minister to explain\u2014and I look forward to his response\u2014because this is where I see the contradiction. The Minister himself has introduced a Supplementary Order Paper, and it is almost as big as the bill itself, which I have some real difficulty with. So it seems to me that the legislation was not thought through before it was presented as a bill\u2014that is the only conclusion I can draw from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note of the bill states that the Crown does not want competition\u2014and I am looking forward to the explanation on that\u2014but the explanatory note at the end of Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the Minister\u2019s name contradicts that position. The explanatory note, which is on page 3, states: \u201CNew subpart 4 provides for the Crown to continue to negotiate with its international trading partners in order to allow animal material and animal products examination services to be provided by agencies other than the Crown.\u201D But the explanatory note of the bill itself says that the Government does not want competition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022529fcd4a04fd42c29dff5d5e55ffe2a9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Are you for or against it, Eric?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3b83366ab55484a9c44b048ab63aede\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I am absolutely, unequivocally for competition as a model that drives both good outcomes and cost compliance, is cheaper, brings about innovation, and reduces significant costs. That is what I am for. I am not for a contradiction that occurs between the bill as tabled, which we debated in the first reading, and the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Minister that I need to know just why on the one hand he is saying that competition will bring costs to the Crown\u2014I want to get my head around that and understand that\u2014and on the other hand, in new Subpart 4, he is contradicting that position. Is this just some kind of tease or enticement for us to accept the bill, an enticement that the Minister will never enact? I ask the Minister to please respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00227341afdfb388404ebab5b4eb67b5c401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227341afdfb388404ebab5b4eb67b5c401\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E The answer to the first question is a relatively simple one. When we have two State-owned enterprises with a large workforce in one and competition from the other, we have in place a very clear redundancy arrangement. If any significant work shifts from one to the other, then tens of millions of dollars in redundancy gets paid. It could well be the case that the same workers end up working for the other company, or inexperienced meat inspectors end up working for the other company, and the Crown or farmers going forward will bear the cost of that. I think that is not a good cost to bear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8acf99a3b694994976e63375211a40e\u0022\u003EEric Roy\u003C/span\u003E: We will take the risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3ee4c390df4b8095fcff9d3f0467ac\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The member says he will take the risk. He might want to take the risk with taxpayers\u2019 money; I do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7b512e8e0d64463b1b0f67da6559f23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7b512e8e0d64463b1b0f67da6559f23\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E This may not be a very long call. I think the Minister in the chair, Trevor Mallard, raises an interesting point. He says that I may well be prepared to take the risk. At the end of the day, the person\u2014the farmer or the supplier\u2014who supplies the product about which this assurance is given does pay the cost. It is a deduction from the product at the end of the day. That is the very point that I wish to represent to the Minister: that in fact it is the farmers, the suppliers of the stock, who pay at the end of the day, and they have a very clear view that they want competition. I tell the Minister that I am not persuaded that this redundancy thing is a huge issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EIn terms of the meat industry assurance issue, these people are sometimes contracted in. They are not all employees of each agency; they operate on fixed contracts. Is that not right? The Minister can respond to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d282680ed11447fa9f1b3942f54286d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No. They are employed by Asure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efda3c0a5ff74cf4af5e8127394f1256\u0022\u003EERIC ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then, on the second point of significance, the animal health work, contracts are let for animal health, I think in the vicinity of about $70 million per year now, and we must get that down to the prescribed level of 0.002 percent, or whatever it is\u2014it is absolutely critical that we do that. This is the second element that I have some significant concerns about: we are reducing away the competitive model of delivering that service, and the people out there are contracted. I ask the member to consider the Hon David Carter\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, which says to separate that bit out. If, in fact, it is an issue that is so significant that it drives the decision-making about the assurance programme under Codex Alimentarius, then separate that argument out and look at it as a separate argument for those agencies that are tendering to do the Animal Health Board work in terms of vector control where there is a TB situation. Can the Minister respond and say whether he is prepared to separate that out, if, in fact, it is an issue on the first point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002254df4c3161ad4bae8381282cda9b9157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254df4c3161ad4bae8381282cda9b9157\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E Going back to the original point, I think the member is making too much of the question of competition in this area now. There is one supplier. It is a State-owned enterprise. In just about every competitor country there is one supplier, and that supplier is a Government department. The reason is that people internationally, generally\u2014not universally, but generally\u2014require meat to be inspected by a responsible Crown agency or a State\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd56ed5b16ae450bacbf28acaef9ec79\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Certified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220457def6b3c342b4b0dc93368d4fb63a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, a certified one. But the requirements from the US and from Europe at the moment\u2014at the moment\u2014are that it be a Crown agency. That does not look likely to change, because people internationally have seen shonky certification\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272bf7a35d03a41e1b97edf163eb37c77\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: Not from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3934618d114c008d0a6cde9c14fc2c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I accept what the member says. That is why when\u2014and I think it is unlikely the member accepts Supplementary Order Paper 120 in my name\u2014and if, there is a shift so that two-thirds of the world accepts private sector certification, we will shift and do it. What we are saying is that we should not hold in place an artificial competition that does not exist, because there is only one supplier at the moment in this particular area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EOn the Animal Health Board question, I tell Mr Roy that every time a contract comes up, it attends. That will continue to be the case. There is no change in that area. There is no change if either Asure New Zealand Ltd or AgriQuality Ltd have a contract at the moment; the new company will do it. When it comes to the end of that contract and it is up for tender, there will be, as there is now, private sector competition with it, and that will continue to be the case. So, frankly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a41cd41d76f74665aa9d23892017263d\u0022\u003ENathan Guy\u003C/span\u003E: So you support this SOP?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd71588762848ff8cf10508e5e8953c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, no; David Carter\u2019s amendment undoes current contracts. His amendment effectively says that Asure has a contract for now, but, because the companies are going to merge, the contract will be taken off it, and I just think that is a nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u00226b705c6cb06041cb8c66535d58f76d1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b705c6cb06041cb8c66535d58f76d1b\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill, I appreciate the Minister\u2019s being so forthright. It is refreshing and quite candid of the Minister to come out and answer those questions. But I would like to say, as we consider Part 1, that I think it would have been a lot better had the bill gone to the Primary Production Committee. I would like the Minister to tell us why it did not go to that committee, because those organisations, those State-owned enterprises, in effect come before the Primary Production Committee, and we as farmers find it quite challenging to be a third party to a lot of the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EReally, when we look at the bill, we look between the lines\u2014to borrow a line from Minister Maharey today\u2014and when we see that the Government wishes to prevent this competition from occurring because it considers it would result in a net cost to the Crown, we look a bit deeper into some of the activities that we know about in relation to AgriQuality Ltd. We want to see why, in fact, the Minister is trying to prevent a State-owned enterprise from going belly up because of the transactions it was involved in, such as Target Pest and things like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EWe do not have a lot of confidence around some of the explanations and trade-offs on redundancies that the Minister speaks about; we look at the side of the debate around meat companies. I pick up some challenges that the Minister, likewise, obviously picks up\u2014for example, that there has to be a measurement of costs going forward, and the Minister talks about the fact that within 3 years there will be a Commerce Commission examination of costs going forward. That can all be forgotten about if the meat companies and the Commerce Commission agree to walk away from it. But I put it to the Minister, as my learned colleague Eric Roy mentioned\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ee569f326543b1906def613d6b76d9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, he\u2019s not learned; he\u2019s not a lawyer. You\u2019re only learned if you\u2019re a lawyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ca3ffbcb8e241ce9c521aa78446f09e\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING\u003C/span\u003E: Farmers are very learned. I want some assurance from the Minister that farmers are involved in that process as well, because at the end of the day they pick up the charges around the costs of inspection, slaughter, and so on and so forth. Where Part 1 talks about animal materials and animal products, it is talking about a very large industry\u2014about a $5 billion or $6 billion industry. It is talking about carcasses being inspected for health reasons so that we give integrity and certainty to the quota markets we have, and about materials, which would possibly be by-products and exports into other countries, that also need certification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EBut I come back to that original point: why did the bill not go to the Primary Production Committee? That committee does the financial reviews for these organisations. It would have dealt with the bill in a way that would have given comfort and certainty to the agricultural sector and to the farming community as a whole. Farmers, whether or not we like to admit it, are the biggest players in this field. On that basis, I would really like the Minister to try to answer a couple of those questions, especially the one about why the bill went to the Commerce Committee and not to the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b57b1cd44134436999f582a46a0c55de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b57b1cd44134436999f582a46a0c55de\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to do that. The bill went to the Commerce Committee because we have a lot of faith in Gerry Brownlee and his ability to chair, and the House made the decision. Members from within parties, of course, could have substituted from one committee to another if they thought they had the expertise to add value, and their whips agreed with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb9494ff61aa4300b41cac615d658f9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb9494ff61aa4300b41cac615d658f9a\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill, because this bill gives the opportunity to merge those two State-owned enterprises. Those State-owned enterprises, I might say\u2014and the Minister can confirm this to us\u2014had a court case between them that lasted for 6 months or a year, or something like that. It was quite outrageous. As the Minister has said, the competition that people talk of here as being something dear and wonderful and not to be lost is illusory. This is a situation of a State-owned enterprise competing with another State-owned enterprise that is contracted to a Government agency, and to some other quangos here, there, and elsewhere. So the competition is illusory, and even the Supplementary Order Papers we see in front of us are couched in terms of providing some competition at some time in the future. In the case of the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, that will be when two-thirds of the industry agrees to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe industries we are talking about are industries that export their product overseas, to countries that do not like the meat they import to be ticked off by a bunch of cowboys down in New Zealand. They want the Government\u2019s stamp. OK, they are happy enough with a State-owned enterprise\u2019s stamp, because they understand that that is a Government stamp. But it is they, not we, who are demanding those things, and I think that it makes a lot of sense to merge the companies, even though this bill does not do that. It gives the opportunity to do that, and I think there are gains to be made here. When there is no real competition, the only other thing to be done is to get the price down, or to get the costs down of the institution that gives the service. That is what I think is in the Minister\u2019s mind here, and we applaud that. Transparency is a great thing. But the smoke and mirrors business of having two State-owned enterprises competing, and then our saying that we have fair competition in the market, is a nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI know that when it comes to the TB testing contract, some crunching was going on, following a court case, and so on and so forth. There was an advantage to farmers. Because one chief executive officer basically wanted to stick it up the other chief executive officer, farmers received a good deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267aa06c0bd5a4d6fb768deece7e23c96\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: See you later\u2014go on, see you later!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226035922c3f76480ca1189f5e7dde8822\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: See you later! But I have to tell everybody, including the Animal Remedies Board, that that was going to be a very temporary thing indeed, and I understand from the Minister\u2019s comments that in any case there will be the ability to contract out those things in the future if\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1291d61e8ea4b5c9c1a809d0eee879e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The world changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8f95d73b07461ba95c225820e0dc9a\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the world changes and there is two-thirds agreement to do so. I do not think that anything is being lost here, and I think that this is a genuine attempt by the Minister and the Government to get the cost of delivering those essential services down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EBefore I sit down, I want to give some praise to the people who carry out those duties and the meat inspections. Mr King, I am sure, and others will join with me in that. Those people are involved in a particularly skilled job, in not the most wonderful of circumstances. They do not have heaters at every workstation, or anything like that. Often they are looking for shadows on a carcass. It is hugely skilled work, and our exports depend on those people as well as on others in the chain. I could not make this little speech without saying how indebted to those people we are. I know they are paid well, but they have the skills and we rely on them for the integrity of our product. The product is not cheap; it is quite an up-market product by the time it gets to its destination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00221f2e89c2b25d4c1aa0fd9e57a778b952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f2e89c2b25d4c1aa0fd9e57a778b952\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki-King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with the last comments made by our colleague from the New Zealand First Party, Doug Woolerton. I often agree with comments he makes, and the last one he made about the important role meat inspectors play and the skill they require is absolutely right. Other than that, I disagree\u2014which is a rare thing\u2014with everything he said in his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI would like to challenge one or two of the proposals put forward by the Minister. One is that because the Crown would be exposed through the redundancy law\u2014or through the potential gaming, I guess one would call it, of the redundancy law\u2014between one Crown entity and another if they were to merge under the Minister\u2019s proposal, we therefore should have a new clause in Supplementary Order Paper 120 that stops that from happening. Yes, I guess that for an Associate Minister of Finance who is protecting the Crown\u2019s asset, that is a responsible position. But the first question that springs to mind is whether a private industry company finding itself in the same circumstance\u2014where a merger is to take place between two entities providing the same service\u2014would get that kind of protection. What we see under Part 1 is one standard for the Government and another standard for all the rest of the workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe second point the Minister made, which is also one that our colleague from New Zealand First made, is that two State-owned enterprises are competing with each other, and therefore this concerns some kind of quango or non-competitive environment. Well, that does not show a failure in the structure; it shows a failure in leadership from the Minister and from the chief executives, who are appointed or employed by the Minister. That is what that shows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHere are the facts. After the reforms of the late 1990s that set up the current structure, meat inspection costs went down. That is what happened; they went down. There is no guarantee now that those same costs will not go back up once the merger puts the entities back together. What assurance can the Minister give us\u2014and I will be pleased to yield to him so he can give us that assurance\u2014that meat inspection costs will not go up substantially under the new proposed structure that is being put forward here today? Those are the reasons why National is opposing this bill here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, that there are some problems in this current State-owned enterprise structure. We accept that; I do not think anybody denies it. Some problems occur when the situation arises of two State-owned enterprises taking each other to court. There is no doubt that that is not a well-organised way to run a business. But what is the root cause of that? Is it the fact that there are two entities, or the fact that there is a total lack of leadership? So I ask the Minister whether meat inspection prices will go back up, or will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022794e6140084d470b997b882b84ca75eb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say that the question was that Part 1 would stand part. It covers the interpretation section and the fact that it is hoped the Act will bind the Crown. I think we are drifting a lot. We could, at the outset, have had one debate for the whole lot, but we did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec06c66565e46d6b54c1ec06c87f317\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I was really responding to the proposal put forward by the Minister. It was clearly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6862b1817ca4af297c24330a4bd5ca8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t want to do it in one debate, so we can then have a broad debate? No? OK, it\u2019s the member\u2019s call. It\u2019s just easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9ca5102d8d4c1aaaec6dd43ec13986\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Part 1 clearly states that it covers the interpretation, and that the Act binds the Crown. In my earlier comments I was talking about the structure, and the fact that the Crown is bound by that structure in its employment obligations. I really am at a bit of a loss to know where I strayed off course, as far as you have suggested I have, Mr Chairman. That having been said, I am happy to come back to the points that are absolutely stated in Part 1 of this State-owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill and talk about the Minster\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper that amends what the bill proposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister why we have a Supplementary Order Paper to debate tonight on this section of the bill that is almost as large as the bill itself. We have to ask whether the bill went to a select committee that had no expertise in this topic. Did the Minister himself have any idea of what the hell was being proposed by his officials? Or did the officials go out and consult the industry after the bill had been drafted, only to be told that if they did what the bill proposed there would be some pretty substantial consequences and that they had better go back to their Minister, quick smart, and get a major change to their proposals? These are all questions the Committee would be interested to know the answers of, in the debate tonight. So far we have not had any answers to those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff54bd017c7641298d3a38f528e54aae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff54bd017c7641298d3a38f528e54aae\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Day after day I come into this Chamber and search for some kind of consistent ideology coming from the Opposition. Finally, today, I found a sliver of ideology, and it is around competition. It is for that reason only, not for any sensible reason, or practical or common-sense reason, that the National Party has chosen to put a minority view in the report of the Commerce Committee and to proceed to oppose this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe common-sense situation that we find ourselves in when looking at these two existing State-owned enterprises has already been explained. If there were to be competition from AgriQuality for the meat inspection services that Asure New Zealand provides, there is likely to be a very substantial contingent liability over redundancies. It would seem to me that if Asure is doing its job adequately\u2014and by all accounts, and especially according to its interim report for the 6 months ended 31 March 2007, it is in fact doing extremely well in its job\u2014then there is no need for additional competition to provide alternative services. There has not been, nor was there represented at the select committee, to my recollection, any submission complaining about current costs and cost structures relating to meat inspection fees and services. There was none, and there is no reason to believe that that should be any different under this legislation. In other words, if members opposite look at Supplementary Order Paper 120, which stands in the name of the Minister, they will see that in fact that issue has been covered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EBut it seems to me, also, that the introduction of competition is wrong on two counts here. First of all, what is the sense of having two State-owned enterprises competing with each other? That is an unnecessary waste. The other reason is that, quite frequently, when competition has been introduced into all sorts of facets of life, corners have been cut in order to provide the lowest cost structure. Corners have been cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E This is one area where, for a whole raft of reasons, corners must never be cut. They must never be cut, in order to preserve New Zealand\u2019s reputation in the export market. They must never be cut, in order to preserve the integrity and the expectations of Treaty partners such as the UK and the United States, with regard to the purchasing of meat products. Further, corners should never be cut in the delivery of inspection services that allow for proper tracing of disease or infection. Such cutting of corners would undercut the integrity of our borders and the protections that are required in order to maintain the quality of our product and the reputation amongst our customers that New Zealand currently enjoys. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EThe whole purpose of this bill is to avoid unnecessary waste in order to make sure that this slim thread of ideology that the National Party clings to, despite all sensible opposition and sensible arguments to the contrary, should not prevail, and does not apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022472f0b1fe1fc4eeb8e4cc0d6fd165a01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022472f0b1fe1fc4eeb8e4cc0d6fd165a01\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E Having heard that thoughtful and intelligent contribution from Maryan Street, I have a question that I would like to ask the Minister. It relates to section 4(1)(a) of the State-Owned Enterprises Act. I think he was the member for Hamilton West when this legislation was passed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a5920c80c264c058f111876f21e3d05\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: A member of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e23e61d3a0d749c3a00c4490b7cfec54\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: He was a member of the select committee. Well, he will certainly be able to understand that the principal objective of a State-owned enterprise is to be a successful business. I quote: \u201C(1) The principal objective of every State enterprise shall be to operate as a successful business and, to this end, to be\u2014(a) as profitable and efficient as comparable businesses that are not owned by the Crown;\u201D. So how is it that when one is talking about competition, which means\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e612a6f0d4845639fba80496355a51d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You are talking about the next part. You are on the wrong part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cbcfdd28d524f99b72c6b8519f11a69\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to talk about the interpretation clauses and, in particular, the board of directors of AgriQuality Ltd, which is a State-owned enterprise. This is the fundamental point. It is supposed to operate as though it were a successful business not owned by the Crown. It is doing exactly that. Competition, in terms of the Commerce Act, is to be workable and effective competition. Where is the problem with State-owned enterprises competing? Mighty River Power, Genesis Power, and Meridian Energy compete. It is a fundamental point that the Minister really has to address. It was always intended that State-owned enterprises would, on occasion, compete. Where is the harm in that? If these two State-owned enterprises begin to compete, where is the mischief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe member who has just resumed her seat said that corners would be cut and there was a risk of negligence. Well, that is easily dealt with. If people do not achieve their statutory or other requirements, they can be sued. But it seems to me to be an odd situation where legislation passed by a predecessor Labour Government to specifically encourage competition between State-owned enterprises is bypassed in favour of this rather odd legislation. It is a simple point. If the Minister could take a call and address it, we could move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287e3b58a58f24275bde18ff7e8921d90\u0022\u003EPart 2  Matters concerning AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e21f598f620f48d8824c1057414676f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e21f598f620f48d8824c1057414676f6\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I wish, if I may, to respond to the comments made initially by Maryan Street, because they do relate to Part 2 and the whole issue about competition and the probable impacts she foresaw of that degrading the service and putting at risk the integrity of the system. There simply is no chance of that happening. As my colleague Chris Finlayson said, there is the obligation to sue. But Codex Alimentarius is itself one of the most robust international agreements that exist. If we looked around the world for treaties and agreements that have the degree of robustness that Codex Alimentarius has, I suggest we would find very few. New Zealand has such a vested interest in assuring its programme that no meat company, nobody who is exporting, and nobody who is producing would countenance the thought of doing anything that would negate, devalue, or put in question the robustness of the assurance that is in there. So I do not see that as being an issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAgain, I would refer members to the point I made in the first instance. When I was talking about Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Minister and about the explanatory note of the bill, I pointed out he had mentioned talking internationally about having agencies other than the Crown involved. I applaud that; I think that is good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EI want to tease out a little more about the competitive model, because under clause 9 of the bill as first drafted, Part 3 of the Commerce Act would not apply to any merger of the two agencies. I thank the Minister for now putting in some triggers so that the Commerce Commission could have a look at that. I am referring, on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in his name, to Subpart 3, clause 12(3)(a), which states: \u201Cthe Minister of Commerce and the Meat Industry Association of New Zealand (Incorporated) agree that an investigation and a report under subsection (1) are not necessary;\u201D. There is a trigger that can allow the Commerce Commission to look at the practice and see whether there is price gouging, overcharging, or anything else that we are concerned about in the competitive model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E But I have to say that the Boston Tea Party story comes to mind when I read that subsection. The very agencies that can trigger an inquiry, by talking to and requiring the Commerce Commission to hold one, do not have representatives of the producers on them. The Minister of Commerce has overall oversight of\u2014fiduciary responsibility, or whatever it is for\u2014the behaviour of State-owned enterprises. The Meat Industry Association represents the industries that do the processing, but there is nobody who represents the producers. At the end of the day, if there is unseemly charging, or if the lack of a competitive model brings up some issues that the Commerce Commission should look at, the producers do not have a trigger that they can press. I have tabled an amendment in my name that says we need to include Meat and Wool New Zealand in that loop. That will complete the three elements that are quite important there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E As I say, the notion we have here brings to mind the Boston Tea Party. If the State and the industry association say they are not happy, then the Commerce Commission can be required to do an examination. But in the event that they are not convinced of the need for an examination and the prices are up, who pays them? That is the end of the line. That comes off the product price received by producers. Anybody who is out there talking to producers finds that is the No. 1 issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003ERight now the sheep industry is not in good shape. The Minister needs to put his hand up and say that he hears the cries of anguish about the meat industry, which is in serious trouble. One of the things that producers continually say is an issue is the cost of compliance and the lack of a competitive model. This Labour Government took the competition out of accident compensation. Hooray! Oh yes, it thinks that we have to have one State-controlled situation to deliver that. I can cite the figures in my own case to demonstrate the cost of that: there has been a 250 percent increase. I have never had an accident compensation claim, and there has been a 250 percent increase. It is right across the board. The Meat Industry Association would say that the cost to producers is 90c a lamb, or some such figure, but has that triggered the Commerce Commission to look at it? No, the industry has just passed the costs on, back to producers, and it comes off the bottom line. So why should we be so encouraged about the provision in clause 12(3)(a) on Supplementary Order Paper 120? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003EAfter our debate at the first reading, yes, the Minister listened. He has done something, but it has not gone far enough, because at the end of the day he who pays the piper needs to call the tune. Be it the Boston Tea Party or the Meat Industry Association, if there is a tax, then there needs to be representation. Any member of this Committee who wants to vote against the amendment I have put forward should stand up and explain why, when we are setting up a monopoly agency, producers should not be included in the loop that can trigger an examination by the Commerce Commission. I look forward to receiving any response, particularly from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, who seems to be otherwise engaged at the moment, on that very point. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022567a3bfbc0194ebf94b164d2d84485d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022567a3bfbc0194ebf94b164d2d84485d9\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Independent):\u003C/span\u003E I may want to take a couple of calls on this State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill, because I want to talk about the chain of events that has led to Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Minister, and also about the amendment that I have put forward in respect of Subparts 3 and 4 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI was on the Commerce Committee that heard the submissions from the Meat Industry Association. Its representatives pointed out that the effect of this bill, which is undeniable, is to create a monopoly in respect of red meat inspection services. The member Maryan Street said that that was the status quo anyway, but she failed to mention that there is a big change here, because although in practice there is a monopoly now, there was also at least the possibility that AgriQuality Ltd would come in to provide red meat inspection services in competition with Asure Ltd. That is the very thing that this bill removes, thus creating an actual monopoly in every sense of the word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EAfter the submissions came in to the select committee I entered into discussions with the Minister Trevor Mallard about the fact that that was an unacceptable result and that it would lead to the possibility of price gouging, etc., in the provision of red meat services because there is now an actual monopoly. As Chris Finlayson has pointed out, that is very much inconsistent with not only the purpose of the State-Owned Enterprises Act but also the purpose of the Commerce Act, which we in Parliament enacted in order to ensure that competition exists and to ensure that where a monopoly exists, it is subject to oversight by the Commerce Commission. This bill pretty much negates all of those safeguards, as it was originally drafted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe Minister, to my pleasure, said that he was open to amending the bill to ensure that at least the potential for competition would be allowed to continue. By the way, he also said that he was happy for the Commerce Commission to review the way in which prices had operated; hence we went away to draft a Supplementary Order Paper. I might add at this stage that he said to me that his view was that two-thirds of the total of New Zealand\u2019s trading partners should agree to accept red meat inspection from non-Crown agencies before the Government would be prepared to trigger competition, but that was just the starting point and matters have moved on significantly from there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI then worked with the Meat Industry Association and we made an important change to the wording, so that instead of the two-thirds idea, we would make specific reference to New Zealand\u2019s trading partner, singular, or trading partners, plural. As I mentioned in my second reading speech, that is because there are three major blocs of trading partners in respect of red meat exports\u2014that is, the European Union, the USA, and China. We drafted some clauses that would say that if any one of those major markets was to agree to that change in red meat inspection services, the New Zealand Government would then allow competition to proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe detail of that wording was communicated by my office to the Minister\u2019s office by way of an email on 1 May, and a reply came back that same day. I will read that reply to the Committee: \u201CTrevor\u201D\u2014meaning the Minister Trevor Mallard\u2014\u201Cagrees to the proposed United Future New Zealand amendments, but would prefer that they are adopted at the Committee of the whole.\u201D That situation was considered subsequently by the Commerce Committee, of which I am the deputy chair, where the Labour members present signalled their support for the amendment that I had brought to the committee. That amendment was contained in the minority report of United Future, and at that stage National also indicated its support for the amendment. So the Government had on all occasions agreed, both in writing to my office and through its members on the Commerce Committee, that it would agree to draft an amendment along those lines, and that was done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EA press release was issued and was widely reported in the media. The Meat Industry Association and the meat growers were delighted. It was also agreed that when the Supplementary Order Paper came back, it would be in my name. However, the Minister returned suddenly from overseas and immediately communicated to me that he would go back on his office\u2019s written agreement to the wording that had been suggested by the Meat Industry Association. In fact, he said that he was going back to where he started, and that two-thirds of the total market would have to agree to the provision of red meat inspection services by non-Crown agencies before the Government would open up to competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThat is why there is now no Supplementary Order Paper in my name. I immediately signalled to the Minister that I was withdrawing my support and that I regarded that process as dishonourable and, indeed, a betrayal of the agreement that he had previously communicated in writing to me. I think that that is bad enough, but much more important is that it is also a betrayal of the thousands of red meat producers in this country. I know that those producers will not forget that the Government, having given its word, subsequently went back on it. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table the written response of the Minister\u2019s office, dated 1 May 2006, whereby he agreed to the amendments I had proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022636cee75208342dcb480f07687fac7f5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be adopted. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022788f8d6643e14b6eb68a5b5002ebdf93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022788f8d6643e14b6eb68a5b5002ebdf93\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is with delight that I rise to speak to Part 2 of the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill. I start by acknowledging the work that Gordon Copeland did with regard to trying to correct this legislation and make it at least partly acceptable to the red meat producers of New Zealand. I would suggest, after listening to Mr Copeland as he recounted the history of his involvement with Mr Trevor Mallard, that Mr Copeland has had lesson 101 in politics. He trusted the Minister, and he has been let down completely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI had the opportunity of sitting on the Commerce Committee when the submitters and the objectors to this legislation were heard. Mr Copeland sat just alongside me at that select committee. I have absolutely no doubt that if Mr Copeland had not accepted the word of Mr Mallard that a reasonable and effective amendment would be allowed in Mr Copeland\u2019s name and would be supported by the Government, then Mr Copeland would not have supported this legislation in the select committee. Now what we have is a Supplementary Order Paper, which has been tabled by the Minister today. I have had a brief opportunity to read Supplementary Order Paper 120 as I rushed in from Wellington Airport, and it is correctly called a sop. It is absolutely meaningless in terms of delivering any opportunity of competition to meat inspection services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ELet me start discussing Part 2 by acknowledging the real reason for this legislation being before the House. It is because of the demand made by the New Zealand Public Service Association Inc. (PSA), a demand by the largest union in New Zealand. It is very interesting that the legislation appeared in the House in the same week that the Labour Party was finally able to raise the money to pay back to the taxpayer $850,000 that it had stolen during the last election campaign. The timing is worth noting. Suddenly the Labour Party, known to be short of funds, comes up with $850,000 in the very week it delivers the legislation that the PSA has been asking for since the original two State-owned enterprises were set up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI listened to a number of contributions on the way in from the airport just now. The first one I would like to comment on is that of New Zealand First member Doug Woolerton. What became clear with Doug Woolerton\u2019s contribution is that he has absolutely no idea of the effect of this legislation. He has been led like a little puppy dog to Winston Peters\u2019 desk, and Winston Peters told him he is supporting the legislation. That is the sum total of the work that Doug Woolerton has put into this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second contribution I heard was from Maryan Street, and that is worth commenting on. What she said, if I recall her comments correctly, is that no one came before the select committee and argued against the exorbitant rates that are now charged for meat services at our meat processing plants throughout New Zealand. That is true. No one came and complained, because despite the fact that only Asure now provides those services, there is the potential for competition. Maryan Street then went on to say that by removing the potential for competition, fees would not increase. That is the sort of argument we would expect from a person who is a born socialist, a person who has never been in business. Members should mark my words: the PSA would not have demanded this legislation, and Labour would not have delivered it, unless the PSA saw an opportunity to march the fees up via unreasonable wage demands. That is what this legislation will deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EGeorge Hawkins laughs about this. I have just been in North Canterbury, amongst rural constituents. They know the effect of this legislation. I guess it will not be a huge issue in George Hawkins\u2019 electorate\u2014if Helen Clark even lets him contest an electorate at the next election\u2014but this will be a big issue amongst rural New Zealanders. Our red meat producers are actually not enjoying the buoyancy they have had in the past 3 years. They are under extreme pressure at the moment, and the last thing they want is another level of cost put on them because the PSA sees an opportunity to deliver a real blow to wage negotiations\u2014a real blow that is then passed on to the industry. That is what this bill is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI congratulate Gordon Copeland on the amendment that I see in his name. It is a step in the right direction. It is about noting what is happening in the international community around the acceptance of non-State entities delivering certification. I want to continue my call because I want to take the opportunity to talk about a Supplementary Order Paper in my name. But with regard to the Gordon Copeland amendment, I will finish by stating that if the Committee saw fit to pass that amendment, it would make a considerable difference to the acceptance of this legislation amongst our red meat producers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI will move on to discuss an amendment I have placed before the Committee. It was put forward quite some time ago, so it had the opportunity of being widely circulated amongst members. The basis of this amendment is to change clause 10, and the reason it is before the Committee today is that at the moment the Animal Health Board effectively delivers TB services to cattle farmers throughout New Zealand. It is doing a very good job. One of the reasons it has been able to do this job and to hold costs for the farmers is that it has been able to competitively price TB testing amongst these two State-owned enterprises. It was aware of the strength of the PSA as it signed contracts, which are running as we speak, to the two organisations providing TB testing services to various parts of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ETherefore, the Animal Health Board specifically said that if this merger took place, it would reserve the right to cancel those contracts and immediately look elsewhere. This is about sanctity of contract. But Mr Mallard, because he saw that this could further lessen competition between these enterprises, has specifically said that any contracts in place, regardless of clauses that are subsequently written in by the Animal Health Board as the purchaser, are null and void, and that under no circumstances can those contracts be cancelled simply because this merger takes place. That is completely unfair to the beef farmers throughout New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBrian Donnelly is surprised to hear of this, but I know that discussion has been occurring between agricultural representatives and Mr Doug Woolerton, and I would have hoped Mr Doug Woolerton had taken the opportunity of informing the New Zealand First caucus so it would at least be aware of the issue. But the puzzled look I am getting from the Hon Brian Donnelly suggests that that is the respect with which this amendment is being treated by the New Zealand First Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESo I certainly hope the amendment gains support here tonight. It is an important amendment. Why should the Animal Health Board not be able to cancel its contracts if this merger takes place? Why should it not be allowed to go out there\u2014in what is a competitive market, with the private vet practices throughout New Zealand\u2014and gather the best, most efficient, and price-effective means of delivering TB testing in this country? I say that Mr Mallard is doing a great disservice to our beef industry by not agreeing to support my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI go back to my first point. The legislation before the House is about a demand from the PSA, the largest union in New Zealand. This legislation will cause a complete rift between the employees involved in meat inspection services at our meat plants throughout New Zealand. It will inevitably lead to a rise in costs, which again will be passed on to the farming community in New Zealand. That is the last thing this industry needs when it is under so much pressure at the moment to maintain profitability against a rampant exchange rate caused by Dr Cullen\u2019s reckless spending of taxpayers\u2019 money, and against sheep meat prices that are under extreme pressure, particularly in our premium markets of the European Union and the United Kingdom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis is an important piece of legislation on which the Government has clearly conned Mr Gordon Copeland completely. The Minister gave his word. We know how much Mr Mallard\u2019s word is worth tonight\u2014he gave his word to Gordon Copeland that he would support a sensible amendment placed before the Committee tonight. But when he finds he can muster the numbers without Mr Gordon Copeland, he will ram this legislation through, insensitive to the damage it will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022267f5482dd8b4705b0cef76537b28ad0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: People connected with an excellent Supplementary Order Paper have been busy over the dinner break. This Supplementary Order Paper, which is about to be moved by my colleague Eric Roy, is to include Meat and Wool New Zealand as part of the consultation process with the Commerce Commission and the Meat Industry Association. The Meat Industry Association would be very comfortable with this, and, in fact, it thinks this would be a worthy addition to the consultation process. Meat and Wool New Zealand also thinks it would like to be involved. So that Supplementary Order Paper will be moved by Eric Roy and will certainly be supported by the Opposition side of the House. We are hoping that Mr Mallard will see fit to instruct his caucus accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022 data-id=\u0022afd203d60ce7424cb7a1908b7dc28da1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afd203d60ce7424cb7a1908b7dc28da1\u0022\u003EMARYAN STREET (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to take a brief call in response to some of the issues raised by David Carter in his speech. In particular I state my very profound objection to the kind of politics that David Carter alluded to. I know farmers are very good at dog whistles, and that member is obviously very good at dog whistle politics. But to suggest\u2014to imply\u2014that there was a connection between the Labour Party repaying some money and the appearance of this bill, in connection with the Public Service Association (PSA), is a despicable suggestion and it is not worthy of that member. If it is worthy of that member, it is not worthy of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227df975cd-93d2-4f55-9bc5-d2790e28e043\u0022\u003EI take absolute exception to what he said on two grounds. Firstly, the PSA has never been an affiliated union of the Labour Party. Secondly, the political neutrality of the public service is also safeguarded and is an important value of the PSA. If the members opposite find that the PSA does not like them, then they have to look at themselves about why that might be the case. To advance their opposition to this bill on those grounds, I find reprehensible. If the member sits there and smirks because he is incapable of understanding the critical nature of the point that he implied, then there is no hope of the Opposition ever understanding the role of the public service and, more than that, the role of unions within the public service. I take extreme exception to what he said and this will not be the end of the matter. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00222426330a912a432ba6a35aa3a79f845c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222426330a912a432ba6a35aa3a79f845c\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thought we were here to discuss competition law, because this is a very interesting bill and I am addressing Part 2. It seems, and I think I am right, this is the only time post-Fonterra that there has been, as it were, a bypass of the Commerce Act, and perhaps the Minister will correct me if I am wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhen briefly dealing with Part 1 earlier this evening, I began by referring to section 4(1) of the State-Owned Enterprises Act, which sets out a fundamental purpose of the State-owned enterprise concept and that is this: \u201CThe principal objective of every State enterprise shall be to operate as a successful business, and to this end,\u201D\u2014and this is the first one\u2014to be \u201C(a) As profitable and efficient as comparable businesses that are not owned by the Crown;\u201D So that is a fundamental principle and it is one that is borne out when one reads, for example, the second reading debate on the State-Owned Enterprises Bill on 11 December 1986. I refer members to Hansard, Volume 476, at page 6117 when the then Minister of Justice said: \u201CThe Bill provides for a clear separation of commercial and non-commercial objectives. The State-owned enterprises will be able to be held accountable for performance and return on taxpayers\u2019 investments against clear commercial objectives.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhat we have in Part 2 of this bill, however, is the removal of competition and the bastardisation or subversion of the State-owned enterprise concept. This really is an extraordinary part. Indeed, I had to read clause 5(1) a couple of times before I actually believed it was there. It was a direction given to the board of a State-owned enterprise that the State-owned enterprise not engage in what, as I have said, is its core business. It must not engage in any activity that amounts to competition in the market place. Having created State-owned enterprises, this Government, the heir to the Lange Government, does not want competition between those State-owned enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs I said, this is a naked bypass of Part 2 of the Commerce Act. It is a step on from the Fonterra exemption in that it precludes competition even if there is no merger, and that is a very important point. It is worth pointing out that ordinary mortals who breach Part 2 of that Act can expect to be very harshly treated indeed, and I refer the Committee to sections 80 to 82A. Even, in certain circumstances, exemplary damages may have to be paid. It really is a most unsatisfactory situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESubpart 3 of the bill is also quite an extraordinary subpart. Although no merger has actually taken place, it is something the Government is considering. Just in case it decides it will merge the two State-owned enterprises, it is taking steps to ensure that Part 3 of the Commerce Act will not apply. Again, compare this situation where the State-owned enterprises are being placed above the law, with the position of mere mortals, and I refer the Committee to sections 83 and 85 of the Commerce Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAs Mr Carter has said on a number of occasions\u2014and it is what inspires his Supplementary Order Paper\u2014clause 10 is a real shocker, particularly subclause (1)(a), because it compels the Animal Health Board to continue its contracts with the State-owned enterprises, notwithstanding what it may have negotiated earlier, on an arm\u2019s length basis. So much for sanctity of contract! The board contracts in good faith and at arm\u2019s length with a State-owned enterprise and then legislation is introduced that, if it comes into effect, will override sanctity of contract. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn my submission, if State-owned enterprises can compete then State-owned enterprises should compete and be subject to the rigours not only of the State-Owned Enterprises Act but also of the Commerce Act. If the Commerce Commission had to consider any authorisation by these two State-owned enterprises under Part 2, then I am sure no clearance would be given because, as is well known, there are two fundamental questions. Has there been a loss of competition? The answer is yes. The next issue is \u201CWhere is the countervailing public benefit?\u201D and there is none. That would be so too with any application under Part 3. These matters should go to the Commerce Commission but what the Minister is saying is that the State-owned enterprises can be above the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI want to conclude by saying something briefly about the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, which again, I think is hopeless. A monopoly is created but it is a regulated monopoly. This is just another name for Labour Party regulation. The Minister has killed off competition, yet has created, by this Supplementary Order Paper, a new layer of bureaucracy. It is notorious that these Part 4 inquiries can be horrendously expensive and lengthy. I wonder whether the costs saved by the Government by this legislation may well be illusory and may be outweighed by the costs that will be incurred by these lengthy Part 4 inquiries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn my submission, from a competition law point of view, ignoring the New Zealand Public Service Association and all the other dramatics that were mentioned just after the dinner adjournment, this is bad legislation. It confuses the concept of what a State-owned enterprise is supposed to be about, it denies to those State-owned enterprises the full rigours of the Commerce Act, and it introduces a new subpart to the Commerce Act that can result only in increased costs and regulation; and that is unsatisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00223eb544eacff145c2b81f05a99fd7278e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eb544eacff145c2b81f05a99fd7278e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to respond to the rather spirited contribution from the Labour member Maryan Street when she objected to my connecting to the New Zealand Public Service Association (PSA) the $850,000 that was paid back from the Labour Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbfaa459d7984e479f332c3f0a2cb442\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: How much was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cec8b199067405a92311d24572b79b0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It was $850,000 that had been stolen from the taxpayer at the last election. Maryan Street objected to my comment that this was connected. I can do no other than refer to a submission from the Meat Industry Association that came before the select committee. The Meat Industry Association said that it was also alarmed at the role of the PSA. The association was never made aware of the Government\u2019s intention to draft this bill to ensure the amalgamation of these two State-owned enterprises. But in July 2006, according to the Meat Industry Association, representatives of the PSA sought a meeting with the Meat Industry Association at which it said that an agreement had been reached between the PSA and the Government regarding meat inspection. I quote: \u201CIt was explained that the PSA had secured an assurance from Government to reinstate meat inspection as a service delivered through a single Government entity (that is, an Asure monopoly).\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Meat Industry Association went on to attach an email that the PSA had sent to its members in June 2006\u2014almost 12 months before the legislation was tabled in this House\u2014stating: \u201CIn recent meetings between the PSA, Government Ministers, the Prime Minister, the Food Safety Authority, the PSA had been informed that the Government will promulgate Government policy stating meat inspection is to be done only by the Government and delivered by one Government agency, Asure.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFor Maryan Street to suggest that I made it up suggests to me that she sat through the select committee process either with her mind made up or else she was completely asleep, because that was the strong representation made by none other than the chair of the Meat Industry Association, Bill Falconer, one of the most respected men in the New Zealand meat industry. Bill Falconer also said in his submission that he had never been treated more shabbily by a Government in all his time in meat industry politics. So for Maryan Street to come here and suggest that I am at fault for even raising the connection between the PSA and this legislation, when that submission came from the Meat Industry Association, shows how closed her mind is to the damage that this legislation will do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI will not take much more time on this call because I am aware that we have a number of other members who want to speak and who will make excellent contributions. But I just repeat that it was the Meat Industry Association that was informed of this legislation, not by the Government but by none other than the PSA almost a year ago to this date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022 data-id=\u0022088763619e06459c9f6d67f6b6c89176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022088763619e06459c9f6d67f6b6c89176\u0022\u003ECOLIN KING (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill refers to State-owned enterprises. I can attest to what my colleague David Carter has said. From my own point of view, the first time I heard about this bill was when the Meat Industry Association came to me with huge concerns about the bill\u2019s intent. When I spoke on Part 1, I asked why the Minister did not direct this bill to where it should have rightfully gone\u2014the Primary Production Committee\u2014and he came back with the glib answer that he had absolute confidence in Gerry Brownlee, and I do, too, but I am now not too sure about Maryan Street when she comes out with comments that clearly indicate that a lot of stuff is happening well and truly above the heads of backbench Labour MPs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EThis bill is of huge concern. When we look at the whole structure, the bill has been to a select committee and come back; we now have the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, which, quite frankly, endeavours to rewrite the whole process. It is a last-minute introduction that does nothing to give confidence to farmers and the wider meat industry that a deal was not done via the Public Service Association (PSA). From the diatribe before us at the moment, it appears that the Government is trying to run a dollar each way. My honourable colleague David Carter alluded to the possible reason for this: to repay the debt that Labour incurred through its overspending by $857,000 at the last election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EQuite honestly, it is very hard to understand, given the logic of what has made New Zealand what it is, why we should be considering this bill. The only sense I see coming out of it all is in some of the amendments being proposed. One amendment that I strongly endorse is Eric Roy\u2019s amendment that as far as having the Commerce Commission and the Meat Industry Association decide whether prices in meat inspections services have gone up, that a third party, Meat and Wool New Zealand, should be included. That would certainly bring in farmer input, because it is meat and wool farmers who pay the levy, be it beef, dairy, lamb, or whatever. There is a principle that guards all levy payers\u2014that is, no tax without representation. I make that point very clearly. I hope that through this whole debacle\u2014it has turned out to be a farce in relation to the amalgamation of Asure and AgriQuality, for whatever reasons; I leave those who are listening to the parliamentary debate to draw their conclusions\u2014we at least factor in the significance and the input of whoever pays the bill, and at the end of the day that is the farmer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt is with a great deal of sadness that I look at Part 2 where it talks about the Government requiring 66.6 percent of the total New Zealand post-mortem red meat exports when it comes to a decision on where to allow competition to occur. When we consider the whole process as it goes through, to see Subpart 4, \u201COngoing negotiations and obligations concerning examination services\u201D, tacked on in a Supplementary Order Paper gives me the impression that this bill treats rather lightly the importance of the integrity that has been built up over 125 years since the first shipment of frozen meat left Port Chalmers. To see it turned into a political football involving the PSA, as it is at the moment, is something that I cannot understand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt is sad that the Minister who is handling this bill is not in the chair, because he was quite forthcoming earlier\u2014before he shot away\u2014in giving answers. I would be very, very interested to know how all this balances out. When we consider that in the last financial review we did of Asure we found that it was carrying the redundancy responsibility on its books, to roll that out as a reason why the Crown wanted to stop that from happening is quite misleading, because the contingency liability sat there all the time and was accrued and rolled over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003EIt gives me a huge amount of concern, having been largely on the outside of this debate from the select committee point of view but having heard this diatribe here tonight, and standing here as a farmer representing my constituents, the farmers of North Canterbury\u2014where my learned colleague David Carter was today at the Tamania bull sale, enjoying the company of the farmers\u2014that we are doing this for reasons that do not represent the best interests of the meat industry going forward. In actual fact, this legislation is a sham.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022 data-id=\u00228600f76121a247bda53e8e037d38297d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228600f76121a247bda53e8e037d38297d\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call on Part 2, which is really the meat of this nonsense bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ffff330f-1757-41d6-9973-25244f0fdada\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022985b917908334476a01f236d552bc042\u0022\u003EColin King\u003C/span\u003E: The meat!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7019ff6c8ce43bc92fbf30e8b78417f\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: It is\u2014it is, I say to Mr King. This is the meat of it. When we cast our minds back just a few months, we see that this bill has been a rush job from the start. It had a very tight time frame when it went to the Commerce Committee. About nine submissions were received, I think, mostly opposing it. When we think back, we realise that only last year the Minister for State Owned Enterprises was writing to all of the State-owned enterprises to suggest that they should diversify\u2014that they should move away from their core business and try to return even more money and get into even more trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ENow we see in front of us in the Committee stage this evening, Mr Mallard, the Minister for State Owned Enterprises, suggesting that competition is a bad thing. We have heard from Maryan Street this evening that competition is all about cutting corners. What an absolutely ridiculous statement! I cannot believe that Maryan Street would even think that competition would mean cutting corners, when the reality is that competition, as we all know, means that the price comes down. That is the thing in a fair market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThere has also been talk about the quality of the product. The quality of our New Zealand red meat product is fantastic. It is fantastic that we have two State-owned enterprises producing a reliable, high-quality red meat product that meets world standards. I have listened tonight to the debate from the other side, and it was really interesting, I thought, that when the Hon David Carter was challenged by Maryan Street about the involvement of the Public Service Association (PSA), Mr Carter was able to produce documents showing that this bill was a fait accompli in July 2006. The deal was done by the biggest union to ensure that this was going to happen. I think that it is terrible\u2014I really do\u2014that the deal was done last year in 2006. The Minister jibed at me tonight, when he was in the chair, and said that if this bill did not go ahead, it would cost farmers $10 million in redundancies. Well, if he had bothered to have a look at the Asure books, he would have seen that the $10 million is sitting there in the contingency fund. It has been collected, and it is sitting in the bank in case this actually happens. So I think that that is actually a whole lot of hogwash from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EDuring the submission process, it was interesting that Bill Falconer\u2014who has been around Government departments for about 47 years; he has been chair of the Meat Industry Association\u2014said that he has never seen a major trade organisation treated so shabbily by a Government in his 40 years of involvement. We saw that the Minister of Agriculture, Jim Anderton, did not even bother to meet the Meat Industry Association. I think, once again, that that is a terrible indictment, from our Minister of Agriculture, on what is a serious issue in rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EI have some real concerns about this bill this evening. There is not even a business case model for the bill and the economic analysis has not been done on it\u2014not at all. I turn to the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 120, and in particular to new clauses 12(1), and 14(1) and 14(2). Clause 14(1) states: \u201Cif there has been a merger of AgriQuality and Asure \u2026 the new company formed as a result of the merger must pay to the Crown the levy prescribed \u2026\u201D. But where will that levy come from? It will come from those people producing the product\u2014that is, the people at the farm gate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EIn front of us this evening we have some very good amendments. We have a very good amendment in the name of the Hon David Carter, and I found out this evening, in talking to the Animal Health Board, that if this amendment goes through\u2014and I challenge the Government to support it\u2014it will reduce costs to farmers by $1 million to $2 million. That is the estimation by the Animal Health Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243fc6bc5fe8e4bf8ad547ef801026486\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Increase! Increase!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222831d48f26cb45659bc3e55d5b674a4f\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4c89c7d27c43a38c090679c51e0e6a\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What is it? Up or down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234d2ba25e8dc487ab45903a70bf09ebb\u0022\u003ENATHAN GUY\u003C/span\u003E: If Labour votes against the amendment, then the cost will go up between $1 million to $2 million. If the member actually got out on some farms and talked to some people in rural communities, he would know that if this bill goes ahead\u2014and no doubt those members on the other side will support it\u2014it will be an indictment on those in the rural industry. I think the important thing to realise is that the Animal Health Board is able to get a competitive price because of the tendering process between these two State-owned enterprises. Fundamentally, tuberculosis needs to be reduced by 2013. That is the Government\u2019s target, and I urge the Government to support the very good amendment by David Carter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003EThe other amendment, which Colin King has talked about, is from Eric Roy and is to do with proposed clause 12(3)(a) in Subpart 3. In essence, it adds \u201CMeat and Wool NZ\u201D, in order to allow farmers to have a greater voice when costs are reviewed. There is also an amendment there that we are supporting from Gordon Copeland, who was offered a deal by the Government, then had the deal withdrawn. So that is interesting in today\u2019s politics, is it not? That amendment will mean there will be a review, within 3 years, of prices charged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002223de6bd3-0482-495d-88f4-7cc3f75d8442\u0022\u003ETo sum up for the Committee, I say that this legislation is a rush job that we believe will add a lot of cost to those at the farm-gate level. It is interesting that Labour did the deal with the PSA, the biggest trade union, right back in July 2006, and that fact has been brought into the House tonight and become apparent. That deal is of huge concern to National, and it is one of the many reasons why we are going to be voting against this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b713d6eabddb43a5b1b98c4c74a88324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b713d6eabddb43a5b1b98c4c74a88324\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E In talking to Part 2 I want to conclude my contribution with one point that has not been raised in the debate that I have heard so far, and that is the very strange way this merger has actually been proposed. This legislation allows the merger to proceed if the Government decides it wants the merger to proceed. At first sight, that seems a very, very strange way of doing things, unless one realises the connection between the Labour Party and the New Zealand Public Service Association (PSA). In the normal course of events most Governments would do a cost-benefit analysis to work out whether there would be any benefit in putting two State-owned enterprises together, and then, if there were, that Government would usher the legislation into the House to enable that to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBut Mr Mallard, who is not known for his economic prowess, has done it a completely different way. He has put the legislation before the House, which he will make sure passes the Committee stage today; then, he says, we will initiate a cost-benefit analysis, and if, by chance, the cost-benefit analysis comes up suggesting that a merger will occur, the Government will take it through the Cabinet process and decide that a merger will take place. Yes, I say to Mr Finlayson, this is exactly what Mr Mallard is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn actual fact, I have heard quite recently that despite Mr Mallard saying, when this legislation was first put before the House, that members should not worry because the Government would do the work and make sure that the cost-benefit analysis stacks up, the decision has already been made. Those members of the two boards who will not be involved have already been told that their jobs have finished. It has been agreed that there will be an interim board involving some members from each of the current boards of Asure New Zealand and AgriQuality. In other words, despite the promise that the Government will look at it fairly in the light of a cost-benefit analysis, Mr Mallard and the Labour Government have already decided that the amalgamation will occur\u2014despite any cost-benefit analysis. I suspect, to be fair to Mr Mallard, some cost-benefit analysis will be trumped up. In fact, I suggest that it will show a saving of around $2.5 million. Even with an industry worth as much as this to New Zealand, the Government, in order to satisfy the demand of the union, is prepared to put this merger through on the trumped-up saving of $2.5 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want also to talk briefly about my amendment to clause 10, which attempts to save $2 million for all the beef farmers of New Zealand. At the moment the Animal Health Board does a very good job, and farmers pay the lion\u2019s share of the costs of operation of the board. Farmers put in $50 million every year for the TB eradication process. This legislation will immediately up that cost by 4 percent next year, but the same testing result will be achieved and for the same sort of coverage around New Zealand. The Animal Health Board has estimated that the cost to New Zealand farmers will be another $2 million, instantly. I support completely Eric Roy\u2019s amendment, which would at least bring Meat and Wool New Zealand into the consultation process. That is a good move, and I certainly hope Mr Mallard will stick to his word, which he gave Eric Roy in the House earlier today, and support the amendment. But, frankly, his ability to stick to his word, as shown in the way he treated Gordon Copeland, gives me absolutely no confidence at all that we will be successful with that amendment; not until it is finally voted on tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to make is that the Supplementary Order Paper put forward by Mr Mallard is a real sop. New subpart 3, in new clause 12, states that the Commerce Commission must, within 3 years, investigate the prices charged for meat inspection services in New Zealand. We might think that sounds all right, but look further through the small print. Who pays for that investigation? Well, knowing the Labour Party we say it would probably be the farmers of New Zealand, and that would be dead right. The cost for this investigation by the Commerce Commission, which is normally funded by the Crown, will be passed on, in this particular case, to the farmers of this country\u2014because Mallard hates New Zealand farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThis legislation is outrageous. It will cost the farming industry dearly. It is all about satisfying the long and lengthy demands of the PSA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6f233eb692d4fc89a1e448069885551\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4112fc5-c53f-4aa9-bf6d-5a05ce6252cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6f233eb692d4fc89a1e448069885551\u0022\u003EERIC ROY (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave, after consultation in the Committee, that the vote on the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, to add new subpart 3 in new clause 12, and the Supplementary Order Paper in my name be taken as separate questions. The Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper is something of an omnibus measure, and there is good reason for us to separate out clause 12, given the way the debate has gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2653b31db142da96a373ff22b6f9c7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is seeking leave for a separate vote on clause 12. Is there any objection? There is not. Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c4e24ad3d5e64b00b3dcdf8609e47080\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000538\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 115 in the name of the Hon David Carter to clause 10 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221d00626bb26144cca64e7f3dde7e5592\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000539\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Eric Roy to the proposed amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to insert new clause 12 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000540\u0022\u003Eto insert in proposed paragraph (a) of subclause (3), after the words \u201CMeat Industry Association of New Zealand\u201D, the words \u201Cand Meat and Wool NZ\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e1aebb67ea514d77bdf007b244fda77f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000541\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to insert new clause 12 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd8839456d5545d8805160c615fc8576\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000542\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to insert new clauses 13, 14, and 15 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229d9b8162e7d74e28864093c2b81329e8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022b361ec3ac3774406b0ceef9990d4c473\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b361ec3ac3774406b0ceef9990d4c473\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendment, a typescript amendment in the name of Gordon Copeland to the new subparts following clause 11, is now out of order as it is inconsistent with the previous decision of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285b30883524543ad842065db1ac697ac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022397dde8f7ebd40a6afbd63fa1cad1df8\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022202a41622fd8415ca29326462d39bdb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022202a41622fd8415ca29326462d39bdb9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E The debate has been well canvassed, so I will not take long, except to say that it is with great sadness that we note the progress of the Supplementary Order Papers. We thought that we had an agreement with the Minister, Trevor Mallard, following Eric Roy\u2019s involvement in suggesting Meat and Wool also be involved in the consultation process. It was certainly our understanding that the Minister has agreed to that, and I think it is a great shame that that has been lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI take the opportunity of repeating what was said earlier in the Committee in the debate on Part 2. This is a bill to satisfy the Public Service Association (PSA). There is absolutely no doubt about that. Bill Falconer, chairman of the Meat Industry Association, said to the select committee that the association was first advised of this legislation in June of 2006, not by the Government but by the PSA, which requested a meeting with the Meat Industry Association. When that meeting was convened it was the PSA that announced to the Meat Industry Association that a deal had been done with Labour caucus members, with Ministers, and with the Prime Minister, and that the Meat Industry Association had better get used to it. The Meat Industry Association then followed with a letter to the Minister of Agriculture, the Hon Jim Anderton, requesting a meeting as soon as possible to discuss this issue. Mr Anderton totally refused to meet with the industry. That is how our Minister of Agriculture treated this issue\u2014he refused to meet the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ENext, the legislation finally came before the House and it was sent to the Commerce Committee, where the Government at that stage thought it had the numbers because Gordon Copeland sat on that committee for United Future. Mr Copeland, to his credit, listened to the submissions. He knew that this was dangerous because of the costs that would then be imposed on the meat industry. He had a deal done with Mr Mallard, again, that a Supplementary Order Paper would be tabled that would lessen some of the damage of the legislation\u2014something that would be done in association with the Meat Industry Association and to its satisfaction. When that Supplementary Order Paper was finally produced by the Minister today, Gordon Copeland was completely let down. He now regrets that he supported it through the select committee, because he knows that this is some of the worst legislation that we have passed on the meat industry since the employment relations legislation and the accident compensation legislation were passed by the Government in its earlier years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESuffice to say, we will watch with interest, as the PSA now has the ability to impose substantially increased charges on our meat producers throughout New Zealand. We will watch that, and we will certainly hope we see a responsible union. But, on past performance in this industry, I do not think that will be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3ebdd0fd0734955a74864b3acb012ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3ebdd0fd0734955a74864b3acb012ed\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E What a sad position the Hon David Carter finds himself in now that he is reduced in Parliament to being the official spokesperson for Gordon Copeland, an Independent member of Parliament. David Carter takes it upon himself to explain Mr Copeland\u2019s position and how he is feeling about the bill in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMy only reason for taking a call is briefly to put on record in Hansard that Mr Carter and consistency were not great friends this evening when he claimed in the Chamber that the Minister, Mr Mallard, had come to an agreement with Mr Roy on his amendment. That is not correct. I suspect that Mr Carter knows that is not correct, and, as he has taken his opportunity in his speech to put that claim on the record, I want to make sure that no one is under any belief that what he said was correct. It is wrong. He should stick to his new role of speaking on behalf of Mr Copeland on these matters. I think he is much better suited to that than to misrepresenting the position of the Hon Trevor Mallard on these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f4225c4364d5423fac958f99df3fcb4e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022246e0415b1a847578fdacffb0aa1a6a1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 4; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independent: Copeland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000551\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment presently.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000552\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000553\u0022\u003EThe Chairperson reported the Social Security Amendment Bill with amendment and the State-Owned Enterprises (AgriQuality Limited and Asure New Zealand Limited) Bill with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000554\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002266ebe28066d746c685b4333871867489\u0022\u003ETe Roroa Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002271b59cca91f34ddb9c56509888c1b03e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022126b7a72f853455a822815a3cfd68862\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022126b7a72f853455a822815a3cfd68862\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill be now read a second time. This bill is an important milestone for the people of Te R\u014Droa. It addresses the significant and longstanding grievances suffered by them as a result of acts and omissions by the Crown. It will not only enable Te R\u014Droa and the Crown to move forward together in a positive Treaty relationship but also provide the foundation for Te R\u014Droa to build a better future for its people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ETe R\u014Droa have travelled a long and difficult journey to get to this point, and I want to underscore that for members: they have travelled a long and difficult journey to get to this point. I suggest to members\u2014and I will return to this theme\u2014that it is for Te R\u014Droa to have determined that they were ready to reach this point, and it is not for others to derail, or attempt to derail. All Treaty settlement negotiations are complex and take time, but Te R\u014Droa know this better than any other group. Not only have they sought redress since 1861; they have been negotiating their Treaty settlement claim with the Crown since 1992. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ESettling this claim is another important step towards settling all historical Treaty claims. It continues the progress evidenced by other recent milestones, such as the draft agreement in principle for the settlement of Waikato-Tainui\u2019s Waikato River claims, and the signing of terms of negotiation with Turanganui a Kiwa claimants recently in Gisborne. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI encourage every member of this House to read the preamble to the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill with considerable care. It sets out the history of the claim and records how the Crown breached its Treaty obligations in respect of Te R\u014Droa. It tells us why it is so important that this bill is before us today and why it should not be hindered by any in this House in its progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe negotiations for this claim have covered a lot of ground. They have been wide ranging, comprehensive, and certainly challenging. Both parties have demonstrated commitment and, I think, tenacity in achieving a settlement, despite the obstacles along the way. The people of Te R\u014Droa themselves have demonstrated their support for the settlement, with a ratification approval rate of 92 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI want to emphasise again to members of the House that, in considering their position on this bill, they remember that the people who are affected by the bill\u2014the people to whom this settlement belongs\u2014have ratified this settlement with an approval rate of 92 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the efforts of Te R\u014Droa kaum\u0101tua and kuia who are no longer with us, but who years ago sought redress for the Crown\u2019s breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi. Ka huri atu ki ng\u0101 mate o t\u0113n\u0101 iwi, o t\u0113n\u0101 iwi, haere, haere, haere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E[I turn to each of the tribes and acknowledge their deaths. Depart the dead, farewell, depart.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E I also acknowledge the commitment of members of the Te R\u014Droa negotiating team, over the 13 years of negotiations, and the members of the Te R\u014Droa governance entity who have been working hard over the past 12 months in order to see this settlement go through to fruition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Te R\u014Droa settlement includes a wide range of redress, designed to meet the interests of Te R\u014Droa as well as to provide a foundation for their future. This includes financial redress of $9.5 million, which Te R\u014Droa have chosen to receive mostly as property; cultural redress, including an overlay classification over the Waipoua Forest; protocols; statutory acknowledgments and deeds of recognition all designed to facilitate Te R\u014Droa\u2019s role in Crown decision-making and to enhance the Treaty relationship; and the gifting of 24 sites of cultural significance, comprising an area of over 2,000 hectares. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee has considered this bill, and has submitted its commentary to this House. The majority of the committee has recommended that the bill be passed with minor amendments. I thank the committee for its thorough consideration of the bill, and I do believe that that consideration has been thorough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EIn their submission to the committee, the trustees of the Te R\u014Droa governance entity spoke of the pressure of exercising the first stage of the right of deferred selection. The Government was pleased to be able to address these concerns by offering to extend that for a further 6 months after the settlement date. I note that this change does not require an amendment to the claims settlement bill. However, an amendment to the deed of settlement is being made, by agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI am aware that concern is expressed by some that Kaharau and Te Taraire are not included in the land to be transferred to Te R\u014Droa in the settlement. Kaharau is predominantly in private ownership, which is a matter that members need to be clear about. It is predominantly in private ownership. The committee\u2019s report states that some members find this unsatisfactory, and they say that the quantum should be increased to allow Te R\u014Droa to purchase both properties, or to allow for the acquisition of those w\u0101hi tapu already identified within the two blocks. The National Party members say that the settlement is not durable, because these properties are not being returned through the settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis settlement has also been criticised for not addressing issues raised by the Waitangi Tribunal in its reports. I remind members opposite that the Te R\u014Droa report was released\u2014and I remind members opposite of this\u2014in 1992. In the report the tribunal made recommendations that affected private land, including the area of Kaharau. It was the National Government of the day that determined the response to the Te R\u014Droa report. I am sure that many members will remember the division and the dissent, both in the local Dargaville community and, indeed, nationally, when the Crown tried to purchase other private land that the tribunal had recommended be returned to Te R\u014Droa. As a result, the Treaty of Waitangi Act was amended by that Government shortly thereafter to prevent the tribunal from making recommendations in respect of private land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EKaharau is discussed extensively in the Te R\u014Droa negotiations, and, as the people of Te R\u014Droa know, the fact that it is not part of the redress is not about the sufficiency of the quantum. Te R\u014Droa have said that it is inappropriate for them to purchase Kaharau and that they do not want w\u0101hi tapu areas identified publicly. Thus, in negotiations, the parties focused on enabling Te R\u014Droa to secure the return of the maximum amount of land while ensuring they were in the best possible position to obtain Kaharau themselves, should it become available. The Crown is also gifting the one small part of Kaharau that it owns to Te R\u014Droa, as cultural redress through this settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EWe also strengthened other elements of the package in recognition of the fact that Kaharau is not being returned. For example, Te R\u014Droa is being gifted over 2,000 hectares of land as cultural redress. I point out to members that that is the highest figure for land gifted in any settlement since that of Ng\u0101i Tahu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Te R\u014Droa settlement includes a wider range of redress than was recommended in the Te R\u014Droa report. Additional redress includes the quantum, much of the land being gifted as cultural redress, the relationship redress such as the overlay classification of the Waipoua Forest, and protocols issued by a number of Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ETe R\u014Droa do not need others, including politicians, to tell them of the significance of the lands we have discussed. Ultimately, the decision as to whether this settlement is acceptable to Te R\u014Droa should be a decision for the people of Te R\u014Droa. During the ratification process there was a vigorous debate about the merits of accepting this settlement. The overwhelming majority of Te R\u014Droa chose to proceed. As I noted earlier, 92 percent of those who voted, voted to accept this settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EWe all know that settlements cannot and do not fully compensate M\u0101ori for the losses they have suffered, either in economic or in cultural terms. We all know that for every w\u0101hi tapu on Crown land returned to tangata whenua, there are many in private ownership that are not. But compromise on both sides has been a critical ingredient of every Treaty settlement since the 1990s\u2014on both sides, and of every Treaty settlement. Every settlement is about the Crown and M\u0101ori reaching a point where they can agree to shift their focus from the past to the future. So, although Treaty settlements cannot be about full compensation, they should be\u2014and I believe that each has been, since the early 1990s through to this day\u2014an honest attempt to heal the past and provide for the future. The Te R\u014Droa settlement is about Te R\u014Droa making the decision to build, to plan, and to look to the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis settlement enables the people of Te R\u014Droa to look forward with anticipation, and to view the years ahead with optimism and enthusiasm. It provides them with a platform, of their own building, to grow and develop. This settlement establishes relationships to ensure Te R\u014Droa are involved in the decision making that affects them, and it returns land to them from which they have been separated for too long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EPerhaps most important, this bill gives effect to the settlement that Te R\u014Droa have determined to ratify. Their decision should be recognised, their decision should be respected, and their decision should be honoured by this House. The Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill should proceed through this House without delay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2cb5c3229a349e585f3d017ba15bcd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2cb5c3229a349e585f3d017ba15bcd6\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E National opposes the second reading of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill, and, as we said in our minority report, we do so with great regret. On other occasions in my short time in this place I have said that settlement legislation should be a cause of bipartisan celebration, and of course I stand by that. But this bill represents a cause not for celebration but, rather, for regret. I note the Minister Mark Burton\u2019s comments about National and other parties derailing, or trying to derail, the settlement. I tell the Minister that I have read not just the preamble to the legislation but the full Te R\u014Droa report of 1992, known as Wai 38. I know what the issues are in this settlement process, what needs to be addressed, and what has not been addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI also know what the response of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee is when dealing with settlement legislation. As we say in our minority report, it is a very blunt instrument. We can say either yes or no, and on this occasion National says no. The key reason why we cannot support this legislation is that this settlement is not durable. Admittedly, the deferred selection process in the bill as reported back does represent an improvement on the bill as introduced, but it is still not particularly good. Of greater moment is the failure to address key items of cultural redress. How can there be a durable settlement when the issues we have identified in our minority report have not been addressed? I am referring to the return of k\u014Diwi to Te R\u014Droa, and to the Kaharau and Te Taraire sites. National says that this settlement should have substantively addressed issues that were raised by the tribunal in its report, but major issues remain unresolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EA word needs to be said about the course of the select committee hearings. There were a number of submissions, and they fell into three categories. First, there were those from representatives of the iwi. These were heard in Dargaville, and I was touched by the depth of feeling surrounding the settlement. The preponderance of views seemed to be that the settlement was not really a cause for rejoicing. Some people grudgingly said it was the best they could get in the circumstances. Others contended that one cannot have a settlement when key issues remain outstanding. I must say that I had a tremendous sense of sympathy for all submitters on behalf of the iwi. Rather than the settlement process healing division, this negotiation seems to have caused division. Secondly, there were a number of independent submissions, and I was very impressed by the submission made by Brendan Lyne of the firm of Grant Thornton in Auckland. Mr Lyne had given a great deal of assistance to Te R\u014Droa over the years. As I understand it, he also has a property in the area, and his contribution was compelling and thoughtful. Finally, some submissions were disgusting, both in terms of content and language. Some of them had to be returned by the select committee because the language was so inappropriate. Once expurgated they were permitted to be re-filed, and they were carefully considered by the committee. Whatever the depth of feeling about an issue, select committees should not have to receive obscene submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EAt the end of the submission process my colleagues and I became very uneasy about the durability of the settlement, because something seemed to have gone wrong. We also received a briefing on cross-claim issues. I must say I do not like the term \u201Ccross-claim\u201D; I prefer the term \u201Cother tangata whenua claims\u201D. We thought a real issue was involved here, so I was less than impressed to be told shortly before we deliberated that a mediation that had resolved most of the issues had been held in 1997. How can the Office of Treaty Settlements simply come across a mediation agreement at such a late stage? As we say in our minority report, this is unsatisfactory and confirms our belief that the Office of Treaty Settlements lacks ministerial leadership, that it has inadequate institutional memory, and that the whole settlement process has become bureaucratised and process-driven. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI recall that in response to a question from my friend and colleague Mrs te Heuheu an officer of the Office of Treaty Settlements said that there had been five or six negotiating teams during the course of this inquiry. How can one expect the Office of Treaty Settlements to have a proper institutional memory when there is such a regular changing of the guard? How can one expect M\u0101ori to be other than extremely frustrated and disillusioned by a settlement process where the other side\u2019s negotiating team changes as frequently as Italian Prime Ministers? If it were me, I would become extremely annoyed at having to re-educate the new team on what were the principal issues that needed to be addressed or wait until the new team upskilled itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOf course, in recent days the whole process has been called into question with two scathing reports from the tribunal about the Crown\u2019s approach to negotiations. How can there be anything other than a serious problem with the Crown\u2019s approach, when the tribunal has labelled the behaviour of the Office of Treaty Settlements as cavalier, unfair, generally uncooperative, providing of only partial answers to questions, and being less than open in its dealings with the tribunal? What sort of chaos is there when junior staff are making decisions about the relevance of documents and then Crown counsel are criticised by the tribunal, and when employees of Crown Law have to go around to the Office of Treaty Settlements to spend a few days going back through documents to sort out what is relevant? This is simply unacceptable. It can be tolerated no longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhat is Labour\u2019s response to all these concerns? As the Prime Minister\u2019s comments earlier this week would indicate, the emerging theme seems to be that if we do it properly, settlements could well be slowed up and the 2020 deadline will not be able to be achieved. So we have to be negligent and sloppy if we are to keep up with the deadlines. What an unacceptable approach to some of the most important negotiations that could possibly occur in contemporary New Zealand. Taking care to do things properly and eliminating slapdash, clumsy, and hopeless approaches to negotiations will have two benefits. First, New Zealand will see durable settlements, and, secondly, momentum will be gained. As Doug Graham and Jim Bolger showed in the 1990s, the first few settlements take some time, but then momentum is built up and things start to move. Under this hopeless Government the momentum has now been lost, and it will behove a John Key administration to get that momentum back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs a question today about the Government\u2019s botched approach to Treaty settlements and the fact that whereas of the 19 settlements reached to date 10 were started and completed by National in the 1990s and a further eight were started by National, Labour has taken just one claim from initial negotiation to final settlement in 7\u00BD years\u2014just one. As the Minister said in response today, this Government is all about expediency. Exactly! And it is so disappointing when one considers how much good work has been done in the past. So, as I say, it is with such great regret that we have to oppose the second reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u00225e5f7158589f4ec3b8ac085191b14e20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e5f7158589f4ec3b8ac085191b14e20\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take this opportunity for a call in support of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill. To start off with, I thought I would raise a bit of the background to the deed of settlement. Te R\u014Droa has sought redress on a range of issues since 1861. The Waitangi Tribunal heard the claims of Te R\u014Droa from June 1989 to May 1991. The Te R\u014Droa report was published in 1992, and in 1993 Te R\u014Droa and the Crown signed a framework agreement to begin negotiations. In 1996 the Crown formally recognised the mandate of the Te R\u014Droa negotiators and signed comprehensive terms of negotiation, specifying the objectives and general procedure for negotiating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E Negotiations intensified in 2003, with substantial progress being made during 2004. In December 2004 Te R\u014Droa and the Crown signed a non-binding agreement in principle, which recorded that in principle Te R\u014Droa was willing to settle its historical claims on the basis of the Crown\u2019s settlement proposal as set out in the agreement. In June 2005 the Government approved the proposed settlement package for Te R\u014Droa and invited the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations to initial the deed of settlement on behalf of the Crown. A deed of settlement for presentation to the Te R\u014Droa claimant community was confirmed by an exchange of letters of 10 September 2005, and, following ratification by the Te R\u014Droa claimant community, the deed of settlement was signed on 17 December 2005. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EI thought it was important just to place on the record the background to the process that led to the signing of the deed, at which I was present late last year. I recall the discussions held at that signing, and particularly the issues raised by Judge Joe Williams, who spoke of his early involvement in the process, as a young graduate lawyer at the time. He felt he had been shunted into what was then considered to be a controversial grievance settlement process, but it was certainly, according to him, a steep learning curve for a young graduate. More important, he acknowledged a lot of the Te R\u014Droa settlement group, and the kaum\u0101tua and kuia who had spearheaded and platformed the claim some 10 years previously. Having raised that point, he said that because a lot of them had not survived the process, they were unable to witness the final stages of this bill. He spoke emotionally about his association with the claimant group, obviously, having been a young graduate lawyer at the time. He spoke about the trust and the willingness of the group to try to strive towards a settlement, which to it represented a positive change in direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EI do think it is important, when we hear from the Opposition that this settlement is not durable, to place on record that the deed of agreement and indeed the bill now before us are signs of an agreement between Te R\u014Droa and the Crown, and that they have not been influenced by an outside group. If that is the case, then surely we must accept, on the basis of trust and goodwill, that this bill strikes a position of acceptance for us to be able to move on in the passage of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EThe other matter that I want to raise relates to the issues that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee handled. We heard from the Minister about the area of deferred selection. Although committee members raised concern about what the committee could and could not achieve, in this particular case we have managed to have some substantial movement by extending the deferred selection time frame by a further 6 months. Although that does not have an effect on any changes or alterations to this bill, we have learnt from the Minister that there has indeed been some agreement on and acceptance of it from Te R\u014Droa as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EAll in all, having heard a cross-section of concerns from submitters when the committee travelled to Dargaville, at the end of this process and following the report back of the bill to the House, as chair of the committee I want to take this opportunity to extend thanks to committee members for the work they have conducted throughout this process, and also to acknowledge the Office of Treaty Settlements. Mr Finlayson raised the issue of the change in the number of negotiators who have come through that office. I understand he mentioned about five or six teams within that office over that period of time, and given that there had been some changes, he raised that as a question of durability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EI do think, though, it is important to look at the other side, and to acknowledge the claimant group\u2019s team\u2014the Te R\u014Droa negotiating team\u2014and the vast changes that it must have experienced in just trying to keep up with the process. But, again, I want to reiterate that Judge Joe Williams, in his address on the day that the deed of settlement was signed, was very careful to say he wanted to acknowledge all those negotiators from Te R\u014Droa who had not survived the process. It would have indeed been an opportunity for them, had they survived it, to be here to participate in this final stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to say that because Treaty claims settlements are agreements between claimant groups and the Crown, we are keen to know that they have both accepted them. On that basis we know that this settlement will be durable, that it does represent a positive change in direction for this claimant group, and that Te R\u014Droa is getting on with the business. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00227aebacd1aa4c49309e61ee2967d0ca5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aebacd1aa4c49309e61ee2967d0ca5d\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is with mixed emotion that I rise to speak on the second reading of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill. When the bill was introduced to the House in March earlier this year, along with other colleagues of this House I expressed my congratulations on, and support for, the fact that Te R\u014Droa had, after many, many years in negotiations\u2014not to mention the generations over which they had carried this burden\u2014finally secured a settlement. I remain supportive of them for making the decision to settle with the Crown. To make such a decision, after carrying a burden for generations, is a big thing. I think we probably saw that at the first major tribal settlement back in 1995 when Tainui, and Sir Robert M\u0101huta as leader, finally took the step to settle with the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ELike all settlements, of course, M\u0101ori achieve a fraction only of what they claim. We accept that. But it does seem that in this case Te R\u014Droa has had to accept much less, and maybe the size of the tribe highlights this. They seem to have had to accept much less than they deserve. But the mixed emotion that I feel comes from the fact that although I respect entirely the right of Te R\u014Droa, as an exercise of their rangatiratanga, to settle their longstanding grievance with the Crown, National cannot support the legislation, because we believe that this Labour Government has failed utterly to ensure durability for the settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI mentioned that I rise with some mixed emotion. Of course, on the day that we rise to support the introduction of a bill, until we have a chance to scrutinise the legislation and to meet face to face with the claimants and all others who believe they have an interest in the settlement, we are not to know that the settlement might fall short of what Te R\u014Droa are entitled to. That is the value of the select committee process, which enables closer scrutiny of the settlement. But there is the qualification in this case\u2014and this is the downside when we are examining settlement bills\u2014that there is no opportunity to change the bill, because it results from a deed signed by two parties, one of which is outside of this place. So a committee cannot make any change unless the two parties to the deed of settlement, which forms the basis of such legislation, agree to any such change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWe in National are not unaware of these matters. For goodness\u2019 sake! It was our party in Government that introduced, for the first time, proper Treaty settlements\u2014real Treaty settlements. It is our party that will go down in history as being the party in Government for the first time ever to embark on a Treaty settlement process. So we are not unaware of the issues that members on the other side of the House raise. We are intimately acquainted with all of the detail of how these settlements work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EBut, as my colleague Christopher Finlayson has said, we find that we do not support this settlement. We acknowledge that an improvement was made to the deferred selection process as a result of representations to the Minister, but we do not believe that that is enough. As my colleague has already said, and I will repeat it, there remain other issues that have not been resolved. Those relate to the return of k\u014Diwi to Te R\u014Droa, and to the Kaharau and Te Taraire sites. We think that as long as these issues remain unresolved, this settlement runs the risk of not being durable. We hope that it will be, obviously, but we think that those two issues in particular are real flaws in this settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI suppose that when one has the opportunity to sit on the select committee, and when one bears in mind the issues that sit behind this legislation, one is reminded again of the Waitangi Tribunal report published in 1992. Those findings were that the Crown used unfair methods to purchase Te R\u014Droa lands and failed to make proper provision for reserves for Te R\u014Droa; the Crown adopted unprincipled land-purchase methods in acquiring interest in the Waipoua No. 2 block; the Crown, through its land purchases and land administration, destroyed the sense of community of Te R\u014Droa at Waipoua; the Crown, through its land purchases and economic policies, denied Te R\u014Droa the benefits of borrowing for development enjoyed by other New Zealanders at the time of the settlement of this country; the Crown failed to protect Te R\u014Droa w\u0101hi tapu and allowed their taonga to be violated; and the Crown failed to listen to their grievances or act on recommendations for redress. That is what sits behind this settlement. It is a damning indictment on the behaviour of the Crown way back during the time when Te R\u014Droa were dispossessed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ESo when it came to looking at the settlement, the Minister, unlike those of us who were on the committee, did not have to sit there and listen to the submissions from the iwi. They were heartfelt. The pain was still real. They were very mindful of what the tribunal had recommended, and very mindful as well that the settlement falls far short of the recommendations of the tribunal. That is what the Minister does not know, that is what he did not hear, and that is what he does not have to live with now. Regardless of the fact that they have signed this settlement, the feeling was\u2014and we felt strongly about this\u2014that they had no choice. They had no choice; that was what they told us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259445df73da440428633ec63cd83300c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I met with them far more than you did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b990aa6af0384bbb8d6fde9fcf803309\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: That was what they told us at the committee. As I say, the Minister was not there, so he really did not have to face it. He really did not have to face it. It is like when we ask the Office of Treaty Settlements who came up with that quantum, and it says that the claimants accepted it. But can anyone imagine, given the findings of the tribunal, that Te R\u014Droa would go along to the Government and say that they are happy to settle for $9 million? Rubbish! It is absolute rubbish. They would not say that, and you can bet your life that if they have finally settled for this, they have been beaten down and beaten down. They are a small iwi. They are a small iwi, but they are an important iwi. Like all iwi, they are an important iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI have already said that I respect entirely their exercise of their rangatiratanga in signing this deed. I will just make one last comment. Settlements are not the end of the process; they could never be regarded as the end. They are more likely to be regarded as a beginning. I hope that the iwi\u2019s hurt\u2014which was on show, genuinely, to the committee when we travelled to Dargaville to hear their submissions\u2014for what they have been forced to accept will in time subside. I hope that they will see that this settlement can represent a beginning for them, and that they will be able to build on this settlement, as modest as it is, and build a future for those young people who also showed up when we went to hear the iwi submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ESettlements are not the end. They are certainly the end of a phase of grievance and, again, we trust that that feeling of grievance subsides, as well. They are a beginning, and I hope that the Crown uses its best endeavours to make sure that this settlement is implemented in a timely fashion, so that the sense of loss that has been there for so long begins to subside. As I say, we cannot support this settlement. It is a disappointment to me personally that we cannot. I was a member of the tribunal for 10 years in my past career, and I know how important it is that this House be in agreement with these settlements, but this one we cannot be in agreement with. I certainly acknowledge the rangatiratanga of Te R\u014Droa and their right to make a decision to move this to the next phase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022 data-id=\u002240c4a7394ddc40418a65b54b4dc4c083\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c4a7394ddc40418a65b54b4dc4c083\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E Te mea tuatahi m\u0101ku, kei te mihi atu ki ng\u0101 whanaunga o Te R\u014Droa n\u0101 r\u0101tou nei t\u0113nei taumahatanga e Tari, mai r\u0101 an\u014D i te tau 1882.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI am just paying tribute to and acknowledging the people of Te R\u014Droa in terms of this resolution to the injustice that they have been fighting for since 1882. Of course, we acknowledge the negotiations and the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s report in 1992, and a lot of things have happened between those dates. But I say to the House that I am certainly amazed at and very interested in some of the contributions that have been made tonight by members of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and specifically the National members. I remember the negotiations and the discussions that took place in terms of the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement, when Doug Graham said that the integrity of the settlement agreement that has been negotiated by two parties cannot be undermined. I want to repeat that. This was from a member of Parliament whom M\u0101oridom has a lot of respect for\u2014Sir Douglas Graham\u2014and I think that he made this statement before he became the honoured Sir Douglas. He said that it is not the role for this Parliament or any of its members to play political humbug with a settlement that has been made by two parties, and in that case it was between Ng\u0101i Tahu and the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI remember very, very vividly that that message was endorsed by the chairman of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, which I was a member of at that time. That chairperson was none other than the Hon Georgina te Heuheu. So sometimes in the affairs of M\u0101oridom some of the words that we say beforehand come back to haunt us afterwards. There is a reference to that in terms of M\u0101ori whakapapa but, sadly, I am not permitted to utter those types of references in the House this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI was also interested to hear the heart-touching contribution from Chris Finlayson, when he said that he was \u201Ctouched\u201D by the genuine contribution from the submitters who had made submissions to the select committee. I would say to that member that M\u0101oridom deserves to be touched by more than just some sort of throwaway line to say that he, as a member of the select committee, was touched by the integrity and the emotional depth of the submissions made to the select committee. Let me say that if the member was so touched by it, he would change the policy of the National Party when the National Party is committed to demolishing the M\u0101ori voice in this Parliament. How touched can the member be? You see, one is examined and scrutinised by M\u0101oridom in terms of one\u2019s whole attitude and whole approach to the issues that involve M\u0101ori people, not in terms of just one part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E But I want to acknowledge the process, and I want to acknowledge the commitment of Te R\u014Droa, and many of them are whanaunga of myself, Tau Henare, and Shane Jones. For us who live in the realms of Ng\u0101puhi in Tai Tokerau, I want to congratulate them. Kia kaha, kia manawa nui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E[Be strong and stout-hearted.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EIt does not matter where we go in terms of the settlement process with regard to treaty claims; not unlike P\u0101keh\u0101, we will never ever get 100 percent consensus. That is an impossibility. It is a dream and a fantasy. But what we can do is give commitment, and encourage and salute the people who have made a commitment to resolving this ongoing process and this ongoing injustice, when we reflect that it started back in 1882. We come to the issue of w\u0101hi tapu, such as Te Taraire, which are sacred areas for M\u0101oridom and sacred areas for Te R\u014Droa. Kaharau is another area that is very sacred and significant to the people of Te R\u014Droa. Yet they recognise that in fact parts of that land are not owned by the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003ELet me say that when I read the preamble and I read the contribution as to the reasons that members of the National Party are opposing the settlement, they say it is because those pieces of land were not returned to Te R\u014Droa in terms of the settlement. But who proposed the legislation to prohibit private land being part of any Treaty redress? Who did it? It was not this side of the House. I want to remind the honourable Chris Finlayson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ef1e47f9d5c4ce2839a500e025375d9\u0022\u003EHon Tau Henare\u003C/span\u003E: So do you agree with the policy or not? Are you going to change it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212119841821f4797a13bc9834e549f6f\u0022\u003EHon DOVER SAMUELS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and Tau Henare, the captain of the waka jumpers. He has forgotten. [Interruption] Hang on; we are talking about the integrity of the Te R\u014Droa people. If it were permitted in law for the tribunal and for the Crown arbitrarily to take private land, then we would have some very interesting ongoing discussions between that side of the House and this side. We support the view that the taking of private land should not be allowed. But if there is an opportunity for the people of Te R\u014Droa to negotiate a private sale between a willing buyer and a willing vendor, kei te pai. But which party was it that introduced legislation prohibiting the Waitangi Tribunal or the Crown from acquiring compulsorily land to be able to satisfy Treaty claims? It was not this side; it was that side. Unfortunately Chris Finlayson just dropped down in the last shower and he does not know. I thought he would know. He is a man of integrity. I appreciate his thoroughness because like him I have actually read the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EI thank my relation here, Tau, for saying: \u201COld man; well, old man.\u201D I am proud of that, because he acknowledges me as his elder. I have to say that one day he might get there. He may achieve that maturity. I am hopeful for him. In fact, after the contribution I am making tonight I will have a karakia to make sure that one day he will reach the age of 69 and 70. I thank him very much for the compliment, because in our culture when one acknowledges one\u2019s elders, one is in fact acknowledging that there is wisdom in the words of one\u2019s elders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, I expect that every M\u0101ori in this House would support the settlement, and do members know the reason why? Because it is a settlement that has been negotiated between Te R\u014Droa and the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira, kei te mihi wh\u0101nui atu ki a koutou katoa m\u014D t\u0113nei p\u014D hakawhitiwhiti k\u014Drero nei ki a t\u0101tou i roto i t\u0113nei Whare, \u0101, Mr Deputy Speaker, te rangatira, te kaiwhakahaere o te Whare, huri ana, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa. Kia ora, t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E[So I acknowledge you all broadly in this evening\u2019s debate in the House, including you, Mr Deputy Speaker, chief and judge, greetings. To us all throughout the House, greetings, greetings, and greetings again to all of us. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u002262a448fca1c64f42b82e526be11be18e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262a448fca1c64f42b82e526be11be18e\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Given what appears to be a reluctance on the part of some other members to stand and participate in the second reading debate on the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill, I, on behalf of New Zealand First, will take this opportunity to do so. Engari, i mua i te haere tonu o t\u0113nei o \u0101ku k\u014Drero, e tika ana kia mihi atu ki ng\u0101 hunga o Te R\u014Droa e noho tonu ki te w\u0101 k\u0101inga, ki te hakarongo i te \u0101huatanga o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero i puta mai i roto i te Whare nei e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0101 koutou pire. N\u0101 reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E[But before I continue with my address, it is fitting that I acknowledge those ones of Te R\u014Droa who remained at home to listen to how this debate relating to your bill fares. Greetings to you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I just say that I declare a vested interest in this bill, and I do so for the simple reason that by whakapapa I am linked to Te R\u014Droa, although I will not be a beneficiary to this settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EOn behalf of New Zealand First it is my pleasure to take a call in the second reading debate on the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill. The bill has come back from the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, where we heard from submitters, most of whom were linked by whakapapa to Te R\u014Droa. I want to say that some disquiet was expressed by a number, if not all, of the submitters on a number of issues, and all of this was in spite of their being part of the process that gave Te R\u014Droa negotiators a mandate to accept the settlement with the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAlthough some may disagree with what I am about to say, certainly the feeling that some Te R\u014Droa people presently have is that the quantum to settle this claim and all subsequent claims of Tainui and Ng\u0101i Tahu has, in fact, been affected by the terms of those two settlements\u2014that is, Tainui and Ng\u0101i Tahu. This gives rise to the thought of whether settlement quanta may not be as durable as they could be. However, I am mindful that the negotiators have obtained the mandate from their people to accept the quantum in terms of this settlement, and, like the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, I recognise the tino rangatiratanga of Te R\u014Droa to do so. Some members of Te R\u014Droa have mentioned to me on the side that they felt aggrieved that the negotiators had accepted the terms of settlement, and that they had a sense of there being a fait accompli in terms of the offer made to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI remind the House that this claim is the second from the north to actually reach this stage of settlement\u2014the first, of course, being that of Te Uri o Hau. I also want to remind the House that the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s report on this claim was issued back in 1992, which is a reminder as to how long the people of Te R\u014Droa have had to wait. In addition, the 1992 report gave rise to the issue surrounding the \u201Cacquisition\u201D of privately owned land for settlement. Of course, that recommendation led to subsequent legislation ensuring that this did not occur. Notwithstanding that, it ought to be noted that some of the lands that make up this particular settlement were once in private ownership, and the owners of those lands are still feeling aggrieved by that. I ought to say that during the select committee\u2019s hearing of submissions, two submitters, whom my comment applies to, wanted to make submissions, but for various reasons the committee judged not to accept their submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EHowever, this bill is about the claim from Te R\u014Droa, and it gives effect to the deed of settlement agreed to by the Crown and Te R\u014Droa and signed by them on 17 December 2005. This bill legislates for a full and final settlement of all of Te R\u014Droa\u2019s historical claims, and after listening to the tenor of some of the contributions made to the debate so far this evening, I can see quite clearly that there is some doubt as to the durability of those settlements. I have come to realise that unless there is a willingness on the part of the Crown to take heed of whatever might be recommended by the select committee on the issue of quantum, whatever we might think in terms of its fairness, we are somewhat hamstrung. However, I will acknowledge that in this instance some latitude was extended to allow for the extension to the deferred selection provisions that essentially will give Te R\u014Droa up to 6 months after settlement date to purchase those properties included in the agreement at the date of the deed of settlement. If we consider that the time frame is roughly 2 years, we see that the value of those lands would, of course, have increased in that time, so I thank those who are responsible for making that decision in extending that time frame to Te R\u014Droa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI want to comment on what the settlement provides for Te R\u014Droa. In this settlement the quantum is regarded by some as one that places into question the durability of this settlement. In particular, I make reference to the Waipoua commercial forest and the Kaharau block. In regards to the Kaharau block, and the significance to Te R\u014Droa of the w\u0101hi tapu status in which they regard this block, there are some who feel that this settlement does not come anywhere near the heart of the Te R\u014Droa claim. Although the opportunity for Te R\u014Droa to acquire the total block may lie somewhere in the future, the reality is that their financial resources are limited in terms of what cash resources they will have at their disposal following this settlement. I would have thought that a possibility could be for the Crown to take responsibility for the purchase of this block now or sometime in the future, at least when the present landholders were prepared to sell. As the Rev. Daniel Ambler mentioned in his submission, \u201CUntil this is settled, Te R\u014Droa elders will continue to feel enslaved.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAnother submitter commented that enacting the proposed legislation would change the present iwi state of depression and grief, mixed with hope, to a state of a permanent sense of tangi once the Act removed the obligation of the Crown to address this grave injustice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThe other part of the settlement I would like to comment on, which is described in the bill, is that of the commercial forest. The settlement must be reasonably acceptable to Te R\u014Droa, and it must be fair if the Crown\u2019s stance is to hold on to land or profit from its sale, and to continue to use returned Te R\u014Droa land for another generation. I make reference specifically to the Waipoua commercial forest, which will be returned to Te R\u014Droa after the present forest has been felled. I would have thought that there might be an opportunity for the Crown to include those forests when returning it to Te R\u014Droa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EQuite clearly, there is some doubt not only amongst the wider community but certainly within Te R\u014Droa about the durability of this settlement. I take on board exactly what the Minister has said about the right of Te R\u014Droa to make their decisions and for the right of Te R\u014Droa alone to decide whether to accept this settlement. I know for a fact that the leader of the negotiators, Mr Alex Nathan, was not available to provide a submission when the select committee met in Dargaville, for various reasons. I would have liked to hear him make his submission in public in order to gain an idea as to how the negotiators felt when dealing with this settlement and, in particular, how those who represented the Crown felt during the negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EHaving expressed some disquiet about the settlement, I want to place on record that New Zealand First will support this bill, recognising the tino rangatiratanga of Te R\u014Droa in the decision they have made to settle with the Crown. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022f196a675895c4267a9be05e980d0c186\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f196a675895c4267a9be05e980d0c186\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will vote for the second reading of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill, and we will see how the Committee stage goes, but we reserve our position on further stages of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ETe R\u014Droa have sought redress on a wide range of issues since 1861. The Crown has successively failed to appropriately deal with the grievances of Te R\u014Droa, prior to and, I think, including this settlement. This settlement provides some redress to them but it does not provide real justice. Lands stolen are not being returned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EOne of the primary purposes of the 1992 Waitangi Tribunal claim by Te R\u014Droa and the subsequent settlement was to remedy the Crown\u2019s failure to set aside Kaharau, Te Taraire, Manuwh\u0113tai, and Wh\u0101ngaiariki from the lands that were purchased in 1875 and 1876. Protest over Kaharau, Te Taraire, and other, smaller Waimamaku w\u0101hi tapu is as old as 1887. It was 120 years ago when a surveyor began the process of cutting the area up. The iwi were consistent in their understanding that those areas were to be set aside from any sales, but the Crown rejected that and would accept only that \u201Cany old graves on the block a few acres surrounding them could perhaps be reserved under the provisions of The Land Act without causing any inconvenience.\u201D And that title would remain in the hands of the Crown. Indeed, the Kaharau block, with its very long history of dispute, will not be returned to iwi, not even in this settlement 120 years after the first cutting up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI do not accept Minister Burton\u2019s comment made earlier in the process of this legislation: \u201Cthe settlement falls shorts of your desires in relation to Kaharau. It is my hope that you are able to be reunited with Kaharau at some time in the future.\u201D In fact, it is the Minister\u2019s job to reunite Te R\u014Droa with Kaharau and he has failed to do that. I know that the Government argues that Te R\u014Droa could have used the settlement quantum to buy the land, but this disguises the fact that Te R\u014Droa need to acquire a number of other Crown-owned properties to make sure that the settlement is economically viable into the future. Kaharau is an area of about 600 hectares with an approximate rateable value of over $1.5 million. The residue of the quantum that Te R\u014Droa have left, after they purchase the other Crown-owned properties that they have to purchase, is $70,000. They have no hope of getting this land back with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s position on Kaharau and Te Taraire was neither fair nor in good faith. The point of the settlement was the return of those lands. The settlement quantum should have been sufficient to include the purchase of those two key properties, and it was not. The Government simply did not consider that the return of those properties was of sufficient importance to increase the quantum. If it had, it would have made sure that those properties were returned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is one of the key problems with the Office of Treaty Settlements and with the settlement process: claimants and their needs are simply not taken seriously enough by this Government or, I think, previous Governments. I think this is obvious in the recent critiques against the department in the Waitangi Tribunal report on Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua o \u014Cr\u0101kei. The Office of Treaty Settlements was severely criticised for failing to engage with tangata whenua groups, failing to give them accurate information, and failing to communicate with them in any meaningful way. The Office of Treaty Settlements would not assist Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua in dealing with cross-claimants, and left them to manage the problems that the Office of Treaty Settlements had caused by its failure to engage properly in the first place. In effect, the Office of Treaty Settlements has become complacent to a point where it simply ignores what it does not want to engage with or does not need to engage with, and, instead, uses its considerable resources to bulldoze settlements through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI understand that the Government probably thinks that it is meeting the needs of the public by its unseemly haste to conclude settlements regardless of the inherent unfairness of them. I think it has been driven by focus groups and by the resonances of the racism from the last election. But the fact is that the New Zealand public do not all think like Don Brash. So before I conclude my speech tonight I want to read some quite long extracts from a letter from Stephen King, a founding trustee of the Waipoua Forest Trust, which established the Millennium Kauri Forest, and a member of the P\u0101keh\u0101 community who lives within the Te R\u014Droa rohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EHe says this: \u201CTena koutou katoa, as you are aware, our trust and the parent NZ Native Forests Restoration Trust have been working for 22 years working hard to restore the Waipoua Kauri Forest for which Te Roroa are the kaitiaki. We have invested more than $4m in land protection and restoration and for the past 9 years worked in a formal partnership with Te Roroa to restore this national treasure. I have lived at the forest and worked with Te Roroa for more than 13 years. During this time in the community, I have observed the grief of Te Roroa and been to claims hui and to the tangi of numbers of kaumatua and kuia who did not survive the negotiation process. I have shared the pain of two negotiators who suffered heart attacks as a direct result of the crippling and heartless negotiating terms and process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI have seen the sacrifice of 18 years of prime leadership, particularly of Rev. Daniel Ambler and Alex Nathan, whose outstanding abilities would have been better invested in forwarding Te Roroa and our community than being bogged down in unnecessarily protracted negotiations. During 15 years of protracted negotiations the crown has continued to take logs and profit from Te Roroa land, amounting to a sum substantially more than that offered to settle the claim. Now the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill is set to consign another generation of Te Roroa to economic hardship (having to borrow money to purchase back its lands) while the crown continues to profit from another full rotation (27 years) of log extractions. It is impossible\u201D\u2014he says\u2014\u201Cto see how the crown has acted fairly or sincerely in settling this claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u2026 Following parliamentary submissions commencing 1907, the court awarded in their favour in 1932 and then endorsed by Wai 38 in 1992. Signing and enacting a deal won\u2019t erase this issue from the community. Despite signed agreements, I advise the government that this is unresolved and will remain so until a provision is made for crown purchase now or in future, when landholders are ready. One landholder has been awaiting an approach from the crown for the last 10 years. The other major landholder is receptive to future acquisition or acquisition with lifetime use. \u2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EUntil this is settled, Te Roroa elders will continue to feel \u2018enslaved\u2019 \u201D\u2014as my colleague has referred to\u2014\u201C\u2026 because they do not have control of the bones and resting places of their ancestors. Further, their mana will be eroded within Northland for failing to deliver on a core of the claim, something that generations before have fought for and they carry the mantle for. \u2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI implore you to address the situation. Failure to do so will affect not only Te Roroa, but the pakeha community as well, particularly the farmers whose land will always be affected by the knowledge within the community it is stolen land that rightfully belongs to Te R\u014Droa. Te Roroa will always feel they belong to that land. Legislation will not break the link or expectation for resolution.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EHe goes on: \u201C2008 will mark exactly 100 years since a Waipoua Kauri National Park was first promulgated to parliament by govt. ecologist, \u2026 Waipoua was the site of NZ\u2019s first lowland forest conservation battle in the 1940s. For 20 years successive politicians and public have patiently awaited the settlement of Wai 38 to enable the formation of a Kauri National Park. After years of work and careful thought, we have a new style of park which the trust will be putting to government and key leaders for acceptance in 2008. The first priority, however is ensuring that the Wai 38 settlement bill does in fact lay a secure foundation upon which Te Roroa can plan, progress and afford the space to embrace a project which will become an internationally recognised natural wonder. Whatever form the park takes it is imperative that it is founded on a healthy relationship with Te Roroa and a proud recognition of their kaitiakitanga together with the guardianship role of the ordinary kiwi constituency \u2026 This is all part of our heritage and sense of national identity. Being fair to our tangata whenua partners is an essential part of bringing integrity to our proudly espoused kiwi values and moving forward together.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis is the view of the P\u0101keh\u0101 community, which the Government should be listening to. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u002253593e18db1f4c88b079705f9819264a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253593e18db1f4c88b079705f9819264a\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI (Associate Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Otir\u0101, kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 hoki koe kai te Kaihaut\u016B o te Whare, n\u0101u tonu e \u0101rahi nei i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113nei pire, kua takoto kei waenganui i a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei p\u014D. Ki a koutou ng\u0101 mema, ahakoa kei t\u0113hea kokonga o te Whare e noho ana, mai r\u0101 i Te Tai Tokerau, ko koutou ng\u0101 mea i wh\u0101wh\u0101hia ai hoki i ng\u0101 taumahatanga o te Karauna, i ng\u0101 rau tau kua pahemo ake nei. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E[Greetings indeed to us, the House; to you also, Mr Deputy Speaker of the House, as you guide us through our debate tonight on this bill before us. Also to you, the members, regardless of seating, greetings to you, as well. Especially to those of you from the north, touched by the burdens of the past 100 years upon the Crown, greetings. Greetings indeed, to you collectively.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EBefore speaking to this bill I want to acknowledge the contributions of all members, in particular the members from the Tai Tokerau, the Hon Dover Samuels and Pita Paraone, and the contributions soon to come of the Hon Tau Henare and Hone Harawira. It is important to acknowledge them, because they are close to this claimant community, not only are they part of the whakapapa but they are also part of the history that has been spoken about in the House today. It is important to acknowledge that. I also acknowledge your affiliation with that area, Mr Deputy Speaker, and that, too, is quite often understated in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI am impressed by the contributions, but there are some aspects of the speeches this evening that I am not impressed with, at all. Without being too unkind to the previous speaker, I wonder when people like Stephen King are quoted on behalf of the P\u0101keh\u0101 community, why it is that in spite of that man\u2019s acknowledgment of Te R\u014Droa\u2019s history and its association with the Waipoua Forest and the hills, valleys, and coastlines of the north, he has not in the past gone out and advocated for the acknowledgment and return of these lands and assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286d0033cca9748a3a431a8577c02f567\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: He has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223ff6a2ed8134a82b580901aaac46743\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: No, he has not. In fact, he came before the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and in my view he spoke with a lack of sincerity. He also made a very, very unforgivable gesture. He brought in one of the mighty kauri of the north, and when he had finished his speech he chopped it up. He chopped it up as if it were a piece of kindling. Now that is the sincerity of this person, for whom I have absolutely no time, and I have no time for those types of gestures. [Interruption] One would think that Green members would be totally opposed to those sorts of actions, but it seems that they are not. So what is the story? Is it that they are \u201Cgreen\u201D out there, but they are a different colour in here? They should make up their minds where their kaupapa is, otherwise they will get themselves confused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268cf2184f86f47f488e798153f7daa85\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: What about the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa45ccbcaa514f68b117f799c3ef19ea\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking of the bill, I think that a lot of the issues raised by the submitters who appeared before the select committee in Dargaville were quite relevant, but what was lacking were the explanations behind a lot of the decisions made. Although the National Party says that it will not support this bill, and gives us reasons why, I am thinking hard as to whether it has ever supported any settlement legislation in this House in the past 9 years. I cannot think of one example, but maybe someone can. I think that all that National is doing is following its traditional line of opposing everything, whatever it is, that this Government does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cfa06bb13e647a78da30a838206962e\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what happens when you spend so much time on that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022074b0cfecd944f09a8c3c5ef51086548\u0022\u003EHon MITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; after 9 years in isolation one tends to think like an isolated person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI also wonder about the contribution made by Chris Finlayson\u2014and at the select committee he has proven to be quite an intelligent person\u2014and why he would refer at this point in time to the Waitangi Tribunal reports pertaining to Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua and Te Arawa, given that he must know the consequences of those reports on the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlements and other claims settled by National when it was in Government. The member has his fingerprints all over the Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement in his role as legal counsel. He is well aware of the overlapping issues raised by other claimant groups at that time, but he made no mention of those in the House this evening and I wonder whether there was any sincerity in his statements or in his concerns. I doubt it very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThat member also mentioned National\u2019s record for dealing with claims. He said that during the time of the National Government it initiated eight claims\u2014it started them. I am not quite sure what he was saying. Were they starters but not finishers, or were they just weak starters and even weaker finishers? When we picked up those claims, all they had were Wai numbers. There had been no progress on them, whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EIf National members are talking about instruments to progress the settlement of outstanding claims, then they should look right back to 1975 when the first bold moves were made by the then Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, the Hon Mat Rata. I am sure that Hone Harawira will agree with me at this particular point in time\u2014it may be one of the only times\u2014but certainly his kaum\u0101tua Mat Rata played a significant role in ensuring that the right legal instruments were in place so that future Governments could deal with claims in terms of breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi. In 1984 more advances were made. The tribunal was able to hear claims back to 1840. But it seems in recent days in light of the tribunal\u2019s decision in terms of Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua and Te Arawa, the Crown may have to go even further back. I wonder whether there is any common sense in that, because how far back do we go? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EMany of the submitters who came before the select committee in Dargaville had a number of issues that they felt should have received a better hearing. We asked them questions as we normally would have, and at this point I want to acknowledge the commitment of the negotiators, in particular Alex Nathan and David Ambler. David gave us the history of Te Kaharau and Te Taraire, and the significance of these two areas of land to their people. What was difficult to get him to understand was that because of the decisions made by previous Governments, this Government is not in a position to acquire private lands for the purposes of settling grievances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThose blocks are very important to this particular iwi of Te R\u014Droa, but, at the same time, acquiring those properties by statute or by any other means when they are not on the market for sale would essentially be described as raupatu. Regardless of who those owners are, it would still be raupatu. We did not want to venture down that avenue because this is about settling grievances\u2014rectifying to some degree the actions of the Crown\u2014and one cannot do that by perpetuating more grievances, although there are members in this House who say that that is exactly what has been achieved. I do not agree with them at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dover Samuels made comments in relation to the statements by Sir Douglas Graham when he ventured into his policy on Treaty settlements, which were supported by the then chairperson of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, the Hon Georgina Te Heuheu. Those statements set the platform for the settling of claims into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EOn hearing the submissions, I say that it was interesting to note also that although many of the submitters who were there acknowledged that the Te R\u014Droa claim has a very long history\u2014as has been spoken about by a number of members in this House today\u2014they wanted to see an end to this process. They basically wanted to settle their historical claims so that they themselves could get on with building a future for their tamariki and their mokopuna. In their view this was made difficult because of a number of outstanding issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI am confident that some of the issues they raised are issues that they themselves need to settle. The repatriation of k\u014Diwi cannot be the responsibility of anyone else but Te R\u014Droa. This is a very, very sensitive area, and for anyone to suggest that the Crown repatriate those k\u014Diwi is basically a ridiculous suggestion. Only Te R\u014Droa\u2014including the members in this House with affiliations to that area\u2014know of the sensitivities around that type of activity. I recall the Hon Tau Henare, as Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, repatriating taonga belonging to our t\u016Bpuna back to this country for proper burial. He adopted an appropriate process at that stage, and I certainly hope that he will not suggest that a different process be adopted for the repatriation of k\u014Diwi, particularly in relation to Te R\u014Droa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003EI also need to acknowledge the work undertaken by the Office of Treaty Settlements. It has taken quite a bit of punishment in the last few days in the light of the tribunal report. It is also important for this House to acknowledge that officials are instruments of Government. They are there to act on behalf of the Government, and I am not aware of any case at all, during the time we have been in Government, where officials have been the negotiators. In my time as Associate Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations I, myself, and the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, the Hon Mark Burton, have been the front-line negotiators in every case. To suggest that officials have usurped that role is absolutely ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022 data-id=\u002240860bc779e74d6fa00ced2a4ec72942\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240860bc779e74d6fa00ced2a4ec72942\u0022\u003EHONE HARAWIRA (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker; t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. Me mihi ake ki a koutou katoa e \u014Dku whanaunga i t\u016B mai ki te k\u014Drero ki t\u0113nei kaupapa i te p\u014D nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and to all of us in the House. My acknowledgments to those relatives of mine who rose to speak to this matter tonight.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EWe are debating the second reading of the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill. The submission from Te R\u014Droa Mana Whenua Trust and Te R\u014Droa Whatu Ora Trust on the settlement was six pages long, and four of those pages were a list of the names and signatures of those who had died during the prosecution of this claim\u2014a graphic and solemn testimony to the suffering of Te R\u014Droa in its quest for a just settlement. N\u014D reira e Te R\u014Droa, anei t\u014D mokopuna e mihi atu ana, e tangi atu ana ki a r\u0101tou kua ngaro atu ki tua o te \u0101rai, te utu m\u014D ng\u0101 mahi t\u0101hae, mahi m\u014Drikarika a te k\u0101wanatanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003E[So to you, Te R\u014Droa, here am I, your grandchild, acknowledging you and grieving for those who have passed away as a consequence of the thieving and abominable actions of the Government.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAnother submission, from the Reverend Daniel Ambler, described, in some painful eloquence, the grief he felt for the mana of his t\u016Bpuna and at their w\u0101hi tapu being ripped out of their arms by the Crown\u2014a grief, he says, \u201Cwhich has left us feeling so diminished and incomplete.\u201D One can almost touch the sense of defeat and emptiness that runs right through the 25 submissions received by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. The people of Te R\u014Droa\u2014ng\u0101 uri o Ng\u0101ti Kawa, Ng\u0101ti Whiu, and Te Kuihi\u2014did not deserve to be treated in such a callous and an uncaring way. The descendants of Manumanu, of Ng\u0101kuru Pana, of Rangitauwawaro, of Parore Te \u0100wh\u0101, of Hapakuku Moetara, of K\u014Dhuru Te Whata, of Tiopira K\u012Bnaki and Marara M\u0101h\u016Bh\u016B and many, many others are worthy of far more respect than this Government is showing them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ETo Te R\u014Droa, I say this: \u201CI greet you today, and those who stand with you\u2014you whose spiritual and physical home runs from the Kaipara up to the Hokianga; you who have fought to protect those sacred lands and who have guarded and preserved the significance of Waipoua for us all to enjoy; you who stood strong like T\u0101ne M\u0101huta, trying to shield and defend your future descendants from any further grievance and wrongdoing. Your honour is evident in the way you have fought for your mokopunas\u2019 future, in the same way that your fathers and grandfathers fought for the future of the whole of Aotearoa in the First and Second World Wars. What cost does the price of citizenship have? I acknowledge, in particular, those who have fought to protect the sacred sites of Kaharau and Te Taraire, which the Government has refused to return. For what it is worth, Te R\u014Droa, this moment is yours.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBut in acknowledging the significance of Te R\u014Droa\u2019s efforts since claims were first lodged with the tribunal way back in the 1980s, we must also look at the part the Crown has played in reaching the deed of settlement in December 2005. The submissions describe that part in vivid detail. Gary Hooker highlighted the lack of sincerity in the Crown apology, by pointing out the Government\u2019s continuing attempts to sanitise Te R\u014Droa\u2019s history and its own crimes against Te R\u014Droa. Sheena Ross spoke of the unsatisfactory registration and voting procedures, of defects in the proposed cultural redress, and of the pathetically inadequate quantum offered to Te R\u014Droa. The Waipoua Forest Trust said it was critically important that the settlement be finalised so that the present generation could move forward economically, while also restoring the unique character of the landscape, but it concluded rightly that the present deal failed to do that and failed to create a sense of settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EIt seems that those words continue to fall on deaf ears. Indeed, less than a week ago the Waitangi Tribunal itself stated: \u201CThe burden on both M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 of the great wrongs that were done in the past will not be lifted if the process of settling creates new wrongs. We consider that the process for settling now being followed is creating divisions within M\u0101ori society that are very damaging. Damage to whanaungatanga, to te taura tangata is a great wrong: it affects M\u0101ori society at its very core. It also goes to the heart of the Treaty guarantees in article two.\u201D That was said just last Friday. Three days later the tribunal reported again that it was \u201Cleft fearing for the customary future of Te Arawa Waka\u201D, because of the \u201C \u2018serious flaws\u2019 in the way the Crown consulted with \u2018non-settling Te Arawa groups\u2019 \u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EYesterday we were told that the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill would not be coming up today, and then at the last minute, bam, it is back on the Order Paper. It seems as though the Government is determined to rid itself of all three disasters at once, by ramming through another seriously flawed settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EBrendan Lyne, head of the New Zealand corporate finance division for one of the world\u2019s largest accounting firms, Grant Thornton, is P\u0101keh\u0101, and he is hardly the type, one would think, to want to bother himself with the Te R\u014Droa settlement. But even he felt moved to make a submission, noting that like past attempts at settling that were later seen to be unfair, this one too would be unlikely to endure. He described himself as \u201Ca New Zealander who passionately believes that all within this country should be treated fairly and justly\u201D, and his assessment of the Te R\u014Droa settlement was that: \u201CThe failure of the Crown to return Kaharau is an injustice perpetuated on the back of the original injustice. Adding insult to injury the Crown appears to be inviting Te R\u014Droa, through its own resources, to attempt the impossible task of seeking to acquire Kaharau\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EAs well as the grievances created by the exclusion of Kaharau and Te Taraire, the Hokianga wh\u0101nua, hap\u016B, land, and resource claims collective also raised the concern about overlapping claims. Will Ng\u0101kuru described the cost of this process in his submission, when he said: \u201CThe settlement process has divided Te R\u014Droa. \u2026 Trustees need time to communicate with the whanau and involve them in the process. OTS have indicated a July settlement, this would place a large amount of stress on Te R\u014Droa and lead to further division.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EOver and over again, the submissions have spoken of a flawed process, of scepticism about the integrity of the registration and voting procedures, of the anguish experienced over the exclusion of Kaharau and Te Taraire, and of an insultingly low quantum that fails to recognise the seriousness and extent of the Crown\u2019s Treaty breaches against Te R\u014Droa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003ESo the M\u0101ori Party will be splitting our vote on this bill. We will give one of our votes towards respecting the right of Te R\u014Droa to seek justice for its claims, but our other three votes will be abstentions. We will not vote against Te R\u014Droa, for it deserves redress and it deserves an immediate response. But we will not vote for the disgraceful way that the Crown forced Te R\u014Droa to the wall. We will not vote for a process that is driven by the Government\u2019s tight-fisted attitude to Treaty claims, and we will not vote for a process that has led to a serious miscarriage of justice for Te R\u014Droa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227883c85e-a5bb-4a12-9962-80df55af0ecd\u0022\u003EStephen Naera\u2019s submission summed the situation up well when he said: \u201CTake anything out of this Bill that reflects full and final settlement\u2026 Return our taonga and koiwi at crown expense\u2026 Remove reference to the crown acting with honour during this process.\u201D To Te R\u014Droa, I say this: \u201CWe do not believe that this is a full and final settlement. We do not believe that justice has been done, and we do not hesitate to say to you and to your descendants: k\u0101hore an\u014D kia ea t\u014D koutou tono. \u0100 t\u014Dn\u0101 w\u0101 me hoki mai kia oti t\u016Bturu ai. Your request has not been honoured. When you are ready, come back and complete the job.\u201D N\u014D reira e te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, huri rauna, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef54e75dcfc14f289e7b49499610f4dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef54e75dcfc14f289e7b49499610f4dc\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thankfully, there will be a reshuffle on that side of the House. I say that because that Minister, and his predecessor, have not given all their heart and all their will to a job that deserves a hundred percent. I do not believe that if, when one is given a job and when one takes that job, one does not give a hundred and fifty percent of one\u2019s heart and will, then there is no legacy. Quite frankly, that Minister and his predecessor leave no legacy whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EIs the settlement of Te R\u014Droa durable? No, it is not. Is it fair? No, it is not. There are two questions in any settlement. It does not matter where the settlement is\u2014whether it is in Te R\u014Droa, whether it is in Taranaki, or whether it is in Ng\u0101i Tahu. Is it durable and is it fair? Those are the two questions that I ask myself more often than not. And more often than not, the answers to those two questions are \u201CYes\u201D. Yes, it is durable. Yes, it is fair. Unfortunately, this settlement is neither durable nor fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThere has been talk tonight about whether the settlement was signed and agreed upon under a certain amount of duress. After 13 years or so, the settlement was absolutely signed under duress. I do not mean that the Minister or people from the Office of Treaty Settlements sat there with a big hammer and knocked the participants around. But 13 years of a process is enough for anybody to one day say: \u201COK, I agree; let\u2019s get on with it. Hopefully we will get something out of it.\u201D That is what I mean by duress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI turn to the issue of cultural redress, the return of k\u014Diwi. I heard my colleague the Hon Mita Ririnui speaking about that. Yes, I did repatriate some taonga, and I am still as proud as punch for that, even though I think I got a bad rap for it when it happened. But that is water under the bridge. I want to say that it would be very, very easy for any Government\u2014not only Labour but any Government\u2014to get a meeting with the museum and work something out about repatriation. Because that is essentially what happened when I went overseas; I sat down with a couple of museums and talked about repatriation. It is easy when one puts one heart and soul into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EAs my learned colleague Chris Finlayson said, the submissions on this bill were interesting. The ones from Te R\u014Droa were heartfelt, and one could see the pain and the struggle of years gone by. These submissions were not from people who in the last 3 or 4 months had written a submission and produced 25 copies to the select committee. They were from a group of people who had worked tirelessly for more than 13 years. One could see the weathered look of those people who had survived the process of negotiation. Their submissions were ones that I think we will all remember. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThere were the submissions from the independents and, yes, there was the submission by Stephen King\u2014not the author of horror novels, although when he walked into the select committee I thought he was out of a horror movie. I had always heard of this bloke; I had seen him on the TV. I too share the sentiments of the Hon Mita Ririnui that when Stephen King cut the tree, only a baby tree, I felt so sorry for the tree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EThen there were the ugly submissions\u2014the ugly submissioners. In all my time in the House\u2014to some it is not long; to some it may be far too long\u2014I had never ever seen submissions like I saw in the Te R\u014Droa settlement process. These ugly submissions were full of language that even I\u2014from South Auckland, from \u014Ctara\u2014baulked at when I read them. Not a lot worries me; not a lot phases me. Those submissions from Allan Titford and the One New Zealand Foundation did. I am glad to say there was a unanimous decision in the select committee to make sure that we would not hear those submissions because of the language. So I say kia ora to my colleagues on the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EI know that my colleague Chris Finlayson does not like the term \u201Ccross-claims\u201D, but I suppose it is what I have been brought up with. There are issues about cross-claims in this settlement\u2014as there certainly are in Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua and Te Arawa\u2014which tell me that the processes this Government has are not particularly right. If the processes were right, then there would be no problems, things would move smoothly, and we would all be in favour of a durable and fair settlement. Because some things have not been done properly, we say no; we say that we cannot support a settlement where a number of things have not been signed off properly. I respect my colleagues from New Zealand First and Labour for wanting to get this bill through, but I also reserve the right to say that National will not stand by and see people treated in such a manner that they do not get a hell of a lot out of this deal. Nine million dollars\u2014OK, that is a couple of Saturday wins in Lotto. That may be good; that may be bad. But what really riles me is the fact that after all that has been said and done, the cash that Te R\u014Droa gets to purchase other lands\u2014such as, maybe, some of Kaharau, some of Te Taraire\u2014is only $74,000. I think that when we put it in those terms\u2014and this is a settlement to say sorry, to apologise for the past\u2014we see that it does not go anywhere near it. I do not want to be a member of a party that wants to unpick settlements along the way, and we will not. We will not unpick settlements that have been done in good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b79aed89a924050b809a332c528720a\u0022\u003EHon David Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What are you doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c89201d1d1b40d0b9604a468b9916bc\u0022\u003EHon TAU HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: What are we doing? The member asks what we are doing. Well, he does not know\u2014\u201COld Spanky\u201D does not know. He has most probably never even once in his whole career in Parliament sat down with a bunch of M\u0101ori and actually discussed the issue of settlements. Never have I seen that man on the marae talking about settlements\u2014never ever\u2014having his 5c worth, because that is all it is worth, 5c. And they got rid of the 5c coin a long time ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003EBut let me get back to the whole issue. From that side of the House tonight I have heard a speech from a Minister who was as pious as I have ever heard a Minister talking in this House. I have never heard such a condescending and pious speech in all my days. Yes, the quantum is not enough to purchase\u2014[Interruption] Look, I tell that member not to mind about us. National was in power without me for a while, and then it was in power for 3 more years and we did a whole lot. We did a whole lot in terms of Treaty settlements, so that member should not bother going there. Labour will lose in an argument or discussion about what National has done in terms of Treaty settlements. I mentioned before a legacy. Well, the legacy for National, in terms of Treaty settlements, is Sir Douglas Graham. The party he belonged to was National. The party he belongs to is National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003ELastly, I want to say that I am dumbfounded at the ability of a select committee not to be able to make changes in a settlement process, and I think that that is something this House must address in the very near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002251dfea20-2244-4fc7-bd7d-ebf7a98580e1\u0022\u003E It does not say to the Crown that it must do this; all it says is that the select committee proposes, or wishes, the Government to take a course of action. It does not hold a power of veto, and it certainly does not say to the Minister that he must listen to the select committee. So I urge the House shortly to have a discussion and come up with a better way of dealing with Treaty settlements when they appear before a select committee. Kia Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fd19054fb16e4df0af9afbb569ae63e3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 1 (Turia); United Future 2; Progressive 1;.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Party 3 (Flavell, Harawira, Sharples).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000691\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706209a53e3cd10ad49259dab7285f6348d87000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"