"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a98e1a560114188bdafe033f28c238f\u0022\u003EThursday, 28 June 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1b45312606540e8bd660e4e8df9c4c7\u0022\u003EThursday, 28 June 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9b622976ce142ac9a87992258f0eb7f\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a52422e8b2da41f3a47cce79fa9cca60\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002294e32b8e29cb42298941153be59339e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294e32b8e29cb42298941153be59339e7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week the House goes into a 2-week adjournment. When the House resumes on Tuesday, 17 July priority will be given to the Committee stage of the Appropriation (2007/08 Estimates) Bill, which is an 8-hour debate, and the remaining stages of the Criminal Justice Reform Bill, the Te Roroa Claims Settlement Bill, the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services (Remedies) Amendment Bill, and the Mental Health Commission Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225dc84cd2d0e0418f9479ca29748d4f12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dc84cd2d0e0418f9479ca29748d4f12\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Leader of the House for giving us an indication of the next sitting\u2019s business. I wonder whether he might give us a comment about the likelihood of the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill passing during this term of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00220455daa8e41c42668202d54cda33e877\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220455daa8e41c42668202d54cda33e877\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I think we can say that is still being market tested at the present time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d904b07e17446f7bc3a5a64edb84a61\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251aa151936c544a8a95bd14a710c872d\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af358bd117114b3886149c5088f390df\u0022\u003EBail\u2014Electronic Monitoring\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022719d301e6d53480c9ad44fc45a5fb8b5\u0022\u003E1. SIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he stand by a Ministry of Justice document from October 2005, which states that targeting electronic bail towards those defendants who would otherwise be remanded in custody \u201Cconflicts with the fact that such defendants are more likely to have characteristics or criminal histories that would make them unsuitable for release on bail with electronic monitoring.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00229e9bc1934c5042479f3e0c6cd8848783\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e9bc1934c5042479f3e0c6cd8848783\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I stand by the advice that was tendered to Ministers in 2005: \u201CSome defendants who would otherwise be remanded in custody could be released on bail with electronic monitoring.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5be4edcba8544129d431cc27e2fdc96\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that the same document states that electronic bail was established \u201Cwith the primary aim of reducing inmate numbers\u201D, and is saving 46 prison beds really worth the risk to the public when violent offenders make up the largest group of those on electronic bail, including those accused of aggravated robbery, grievous assault, rape; and that a staggering 87 percent on electronic bail have already been convicted for offending whilst previously on bail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af3d04a95b2a451a8e6237681606d9c0\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, because I told him in writing in January, the document he is referring to was not one I was even aware of the existence of. It was not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209836a9b27e94883a89e17b748d958c0\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s your department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb646ddd948b4945ae14affa12245ebb\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The paper was an internal document, never released to Ministers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b69fe4b6d2b4fb29f7ec07ecf5838f6\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Aw!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d407980ea6f4413bb762c3df9798aec\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014under the Official Information Act. It is a draft document, internal to the ministry. What I am telling the member is that the advice the Ministers received when raising questions about this, is as per the answer I gave the member in the principal answer. I can say to the member that of the 274 who have applied, and the 126 the court has heard, only three have been charged with any new offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022099d90fb68f34ddea09cf2c691337f0d\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why should the public have any confidence in the Minister\u2019s policy of letting violent offenders out on electronic bail just to save a few prison beds, when police have opposed their bail in 85 percent of cases, including a member of the JDK gang, who had previously offended while on bail, is currently on the run, and is someone police have warned on national television is \u201Cextremely dangerous\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b29c192688964173a14ef8b716ef2d52\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member indicates in his question, he quite correctly understands that the operational responsibility for electronic bail resides with the police. But I can say to the member that in terms of the actual advice Ministers received from the ministry, the ministry also emphasised that the reasons to progress to electronic bail were that it had positive implications around improving rehabilitation options and enhancing public safety by enabling stricter supervision for offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5dc4248ea84f9aaebd4a300cdcad6f\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The primary reason was prison beds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a695594d2058472d9090b89e9f22cfde\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is misleading people who are listening, because, of course, some of those who are getting electronic bail provision previously would have had non-electronic bail provision. In this case it enhances the security of those getting the sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795d777906a34c09932641b656efc102\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the advice of an official who was asked to estimate the number of offenders remanded in custody who might be eligible for electronic bail, and replied by email: \u201CBasically it seems very few remands are made without good reason. Sometimes police will apply for remand under one charge while they look for evidence under another charge, so the remand can also be something of a risk-mitigation tool with known serious reoffenders.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218c7d3832d5947f9a306061d3b6c7336\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As the nature of the member\u2019s question indicates, there are a series of issues. The first is to provide a tool, the second is for the police to determine their recommendation, and, thirdly, of course\u2014and most important\u2014is for the court to decide what provision it makes use of on its judgment of all the facts at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb7177e2499448e8483445072e60179\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What is the public to do when, first, it has a National Government that introduces home detention, containing back-end home detention, and that allows violent offenders placed on home detention to offend again; and, second, it sees a Labour-led Government allowing violent offenders\u2014who have previously offended whilst on bail\u2014to be given electronic bail, from where they offend again, other than to vote for a sensibly led Government, that being a New Zealand First - led Government, which will not accept the sorts of airhead recommendations that both he and National give?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221fb1d27d6f74235ac5486517e6b6385\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member is aware, the House is considering at this time a range of sentencing options to enhance the choices for judges to use. But I can say to the member that contrary to the implication of the latter part of his question, of those who have currently been involved in an electronic bail sentence only three have been charged and, in fact, only one convicted, of a new offence. The member\u2019s question was legitimate in terms of whether we are evaluating the work that is being done. That is perhaps most important, and I can tell him that, yes, we are. There is an evaluation. An independent contractor has been engaged by police to provide that data. There will be a report to Ministers in November, and we will have a substantive evaluation of what has actually happened, whether this is working, and whether it requires any change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225469c140bd1e41fc991deb750da55fca\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that when his predecessor the Hon Phil Goff was asked to come up with ways of reducing the prison population, he told Cabinet in March 2005: \u201CI do not propose that electronic monitoring as a condition of bail be reconsidered at this time.\u201D, yet that same month he was rolled by Cabinet into doing more work on it; and is that because the Government was more concerned about prison numbers than it was about the type of offender who is currently on electronically monitored bail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256849e6e94f749fb81dd49aa7f3a15d8\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that in December 2005, when I was the Minister, the advice provided to Cabinet was as per the answers to the questions I gave to the member earlier. I can say to the member that that advice was tendered as part of a suite of advice dealing with a range of options that gives the Government and, ultimately, the courts better sentencing options to achieve both community safety and the best results in terms of the criminal justice system. That is the point of the exercise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3353517557f48f6ad4b7e1bcef1fdac\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received any reports from the Minister of Police about whether the police actually support electronic bail, when they not only have to assess the eligibility of remandees for electronic bail but also have to monitor them while they are on electronic bail, despite the fact that they almost always oppose electronic bail in the first instance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c858aa0c9c994de1a10c81169d8edd2b\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not received any reports from the Minister of Police stating that the police oppose their involvement in the electronic bail process. But as I indicated to the member, the police have conducted, and are conducting, an evaluation. They have independent research being done. That will provide a basis of reporting to joint Ministers later in the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221acd626c8a95446d82913a6b07f92f25\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Is this scheme about keeping prison numbers down or about protecting the public from people who have previously, or who have allegedly, had violent criminal charges laid against them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65e9a477d40416db5d0de6b37c416bc\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: If the member means by \u201Cthis scheme\u201D electronic bail, then it is but one of a number of ingredients in a range of sentencing options provided to the courts through legislation that is going through this House in order to achieve the most effective use of the criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242671d6e3b904d049f3e1a6d6a05a7c4\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Can he now then give this House an absolute assurance that his Government will be issuing instructions that no offender who has had a previous history of offending whilst on bail will now be eligible for electronic bail, end of story; can he give the House that assurance right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a5075888f82430d907a759d3eced26b\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can give the member an assurance that the Government has made it very clear that the use of this sentence needs to be applied alongside a first principle of public and community safety. In the end, it is up to the judges, in possession of all the facts at the time, to make a choice as to the appropriate use of sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233ddfd597ee642829ec2a092821fc508\u0022\u003EKiwiSaver\u2014Business Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f63e7664d34929987838f944295024\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received on business support for KiwiSaver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00224244aca463db4d78823502e9c3fd2a90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224244aca463db4d78823502e9c3fd2a90\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen reports from companies as diverse as Air New Zealand, Gallagher Animal Management Systems, and the New Zealand Exchange saying that they will adopt KiwiSaver because they want to do the best for their staff and for New Zealand. Indeed, this morning I visited Pacific Steel, where the management facilitated a visit, and which is putting in 2 percent straight away from 1 July. I have also seen reports showing that record numbers of people are visiting the website and calling the 0800 KiwiSaver line. I am glad to see so much interest in the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3e434a26aff4fbe881a811098e76b26\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on attempts to discourage businesses from supporting KiwiSaver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1df77583b294900ac5a7714c680f1e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a taxpayer-funded letter to businesses that is clearly designed to discourage them from supporting KiwiSaver. But it seems that in addressing this letter of Mr Key to Child, Youth and Family, and Environment and Conservation Organisations of New Zealand, Mr Key cannot tell the difference between businesses and Government agencies. We know that the National Party favours privatisation, but this seems to be going a little bit too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c93f46be94b54e68af5b0df67c2118db\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Has the Minister seen the cumulative increase in the value of the Australian sharemarket, which corresponds with Australia\u2019s stock of superannuation funds over the years; and can he confirm that one of the advantages of having a large pool of savings in New Zealand would be the availability of onshore capital to allow Kiwi businesses to invest with New Zealand money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022887efb8e93944512990cb0381944f900\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed. That explains why I have had a lot of approaches from individual business people over the last few weeks who are very strongly supportive of the KiwiSaver scheme. The National Party, in failing to sign up to support for the enhanced KiwiSaver scheme, is simply out of step with where the major portion of New Zealand business is at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ab7d87d6c3b4414acfedcd23731489a\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any other reports on support for KiwiSaver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5efb98a5778496d90cda51818b59ce0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. In Mr Key\u2019s letter, supposedly to business, he claims that National supported KiwiSaver in its pre-Budget form. This is somewhat surprising, given that National is the only party in Parliament to vote against the third reading of the KiwiSaver Bill. I also note that the letter claims that after taking into account the benefits of the company tax rate, companies could be worse off in the first year of the scheme, and there is a 1 percent employer contribution, despite the $20 a week tax credit. That does not add up. The employer contribution is fully paid on the first $104,000 of employee income in the first year, which is 2\u2153 times the full-time average wage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbe6f99edde54d1d9c548d7e4cc386d5\u0022\u003EState Houses\u2014Subletting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f4e92a40df4e76a4375e12dfccb97b\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: On what date was the investigation into the October 2005 to March 2006 subletting of a M\u0101ngere State house completed, and on what date was the file of Case No.320060053, detailing this investigation, sent to the Crown solicitor for consideration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243f59aac17c04aca815ff099061952bf\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the Minister\u2019s answer will be a little longer than normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00224a1fa2e70bf141b7b265942f208ca654\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a1fa2e70bf141b7b265942f208ca654\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, when this issue was raised in the House, I had not been given full information by Housing New Zealand on the details of the case raised by the member. I now have made extensive inquiries into this case and I have uncovered additional information that the member and this House are not aware of. That information does raise serious questions about the speed with which Housing New Zealand is dealing with serious tenant breaches of honesty. The information is as follows. An allegation about the tenant was received by the corporation on 24 February 2006. Relevant material was assembled and the case was allocated to an investigator on 13 May 2006. When the investigation was completed on 31 August 2006 the results of the investigation were considered, as is usual, by the next scheduled meeting of the investigation committee in October 2006. Subsequent to that meeting, it has taken until earlier this month to establish the $32,650 debt now owed by the tenant. Late yesterday the file was sent to Housing New Zealand\u2019s legal team to prepare for forwarding to the Crown solicitor. Yesterday in the House, going on the information I had available at that time, I advised that the case had been referred to the Crown solicitor. This was not accurate. The case was referred only this morning\u2014far too late, and a lesson has been learnt. I accept that Housing New Zealand has taken far too long to investigate this case and a number of other cases sitting in its investigations unit. I am determined that the situation will be rectified. I do want to stress to this House that the vast bulk of Housing New Zealand tenants are decent people, and that the actions of a few dishonest tenants should not reflect on everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976010ca9ad6474aa06d0b25d34bd5b9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That was an extremely long answer. Although you did indicate that the Minister had asked for your indulgence in that regard, it was much longer than many of the other long answers you have allowed previously. What is worse is that it was in the nature of a ministerial statement. I think the House should be very, very careful about Ministers getting themselves into trouble one day, by misleading the House, then commandeering question time the next day to try to get themselves out of it, without the sort of scrutiny that the House might reasonably apply in that circumstance. I accordingly seek leave for there to be a ministerial statement debate forthwith on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15bb69da942485d90e6532656a30d89\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f89190984adc4d7eb4a55f673fc7587e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Do you have a view on whether the Minister should have taken leave at the first opportunity to correct the mistake that he must have known late yesterday he had made in the House during question time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e68d9253bef4f46b0704c542078fdf3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister did give a very full explanation. Certainly, the explanation, I think, did contain two issues. One was an explanation of what happened, and one certainly did refer to the fact that the information given yesterday was not correct, and the explanation for that was given. In future I\u2014[Interruption] Would the member just wait, please? If members wait until the end, not only when the Speaker is on her feet but also when people are asking questions and giving answers, then that would be a courtesy and would also inform the House better. I think that in this instance those two mixed explanations were given, but I would say that in future Ministers in this position should, in fact, make a ministerial statement if they had given information to the House that was not correct. That would have been the correct way to do it. [Interruption] Oh, I am so pleased that the member agrees! So could we please not have comments on whether the Speaker gets it right or wrong; I rule. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc6dced82456470282ee87a6eae4722b\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister please explain to the House how he can give such a detailed explanation of Housing New Zealand\u2019s failings in giving him the correct information yesterday, when the only information I and the media had yesterday came from the response to an Official Information Act request given to me by him, with his cover letter and his signature\u2014or did he not read the information that I read?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022344b83dc9b8d4e3c91c4891b34224033\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, the member alleges that I sent him a letter. Actually, I sent it to the National research unit, not to him. It was in the form of a large Official Information Act answer, which was put out some time ago. Ministers sign out information requests all of the time. I am glad that the member\u2019s research unit got on to it. We made a mistake, we are on to it, and we are fixing it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226064274b216b45c7b4360d336acce648\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: What steps has the Minister taken to rectify this situation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a07d3e884ba4af48e6e86da5f12c1bf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Today I have written to the chair of Housing New Zealand, requesting that the board review the corporation\u2019s investigation process, with a due date for report back to me of 27 July. It is vital that New Zealanders can have confidence in Housing New Zealand, which performs a vital social service in housing 67,000 families. I am determined that all of our good work is not undermined by the sluggish investigations of a very, very few people who seek to deceive and defraud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276780c707c2e467b983f794f14ef5607\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Now that the subletting rort investigation has been done, what investigations have been made into allegations by a neighbour, in March last year, that the tenant told her that he \u201Cknew someone in Housing\u201D, and that was how he got the place, given that that constitutes a claim of corruption in Housing New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224394d09811eb4201a62923d2b9345e5e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am as confident as I can be at this stage that Housing New Zealand did not know that the applicant was making a false declaration about his assets. As far as the matter is concerned of alleged insider-trading at Housing New Zealand, I can say that that matter has been looked into, and as yet no evidence has been found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdcf42466fd94762a8450b5c19be8030\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister claim that that allegation regarding insider help from Housing New Zealand has been looked into, when that investigation has not been documented or even mentioned in the 8-page report that contains notes from all interviews?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb7b5a82e01641aa9c93b4e3e6a8d152\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the House that the question I was asked yesterday concerned what confidence I had in Housing New Zealand. I had no evidence or information about this particular case. When I got back to my office, I ordered an immediate investigation. Included in the material that has come over to me today is information that is not in the Official Information Act request but which pertains to this case. That is the information I have given in my answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7ae7b41f5d24d72926aab283ab57e27\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister please supply the report on the allegations of corruption either to me, this House, or the media, since he is putting his hand on his heart and saying there were at least some interviews and some investigation into the allegations of corruption?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223169ba9020ba479db76564a6f503ef6e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: When this case has been fully investigated\u2014and I remind the House it has been referred on to the Crown prosecutor for prosecution\u2014I will reveal that information. But while a case is ongoing, where prosecution is going to take place, I am not prepared to discuss details of the case in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022061975c6d6e04c9aa7ed9d064d41d781\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his comments on Radio New Zealand this morning that \u201CI am confident the allegations of corruption have been dealt with.\u201D, that \u201CWe have a comment from a neighbour which has been checked out.\u201D, and \u201CWe\u2019re on to it.\u201D, when there is no mention at all in the papers that I received under the Official Information Act request that an inquiry into corruption has occurred at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022825e82cbf9f74470900418375340905a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The member was obviously not listening to my previous answer. When I got back from the House yesterday I asked for information on a case that I had no knowledge about before I came to this House at question time yesterday. I asked Housing New Zealand to give me a report on the case. Of course, included in that report is an extensive dossier about the investigations that have taken place. The question here is not has the corporation investigated it, but why it has taken so long to get to court. That is an issue\u2014I concede it is an issue\u2014we are on to it, and we are going to fix it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6c5eb2a9d048ab81686158e7c452b5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Yesterday in his answers to Mr Heatley\u2019s questions the Minister stated that Mr Heatley had got it wrong. Do you think it would be appropriate in the circumstances for him to withdraw and apologise for that remark?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e41727eb9d9745a4bb7618f905f77df7\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the time for that has probably passed, and the Minister has given a full explanation for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228738ddc457d54b02add299d2ad306eb4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Madam Speaker, I am utterly prepared to say that I am glad the member has raised this case. I am glad his research unit plucked it out of the material, because it has given me an issue I have to deal with, which is the time it takes Housing New Zealand to deal with serious allegations and get them to court. So, yes, I thank the member for bringing it up in the House. It will hopefully have a good outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022618df88f7c6a4dafb71793ad1d86ac57\u0022\u003EEnvironment\u2014Monitoring\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f64f060f7ba448eaacf004c74b1216e\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Independent)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Is he satisfied with his ministry\u2019s monitoring of Crown agencies and departments in relation to the protection of New Zealand\u2019s clean, green environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb998d165f14415ab3946d3581e6b665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb998d165f14415ab3946d3581e6b665\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Associate Minister for the Environment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for the Environment: Yes. The Government is committed to enhancing, promoting, and protecting our clean, green image, and on behalf of the Minister I can express confidence in the Ministry for the Environment and its monitoring process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ebe1284b6b342629e3a110d3b8e7c1a\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that it is a legal requirement that signs must be erected at every point of entry where 1080 poison pellets are dropped, warning campers and hunters to take their own water into the forest with them as a precaution against drinking from streams contaminated by 1080 poison pellets, but that the Department of Conservation habitually drops 1080 poison from the air without erecting such signs, in breach of the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227575bd77a41f4110a8cdcf7f42523192\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I recognise that that is a concern. However, that question is best asked of the Minister of Conservation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205b13918ae20422cbd93886f203e1d1f\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the Environmental Risk Management Authority has so far indicated that it does not intend to test watercress for 1080 poison residue, in spite of the fact that the documentary A Shadow of Doubt, which is to be screened on M\u0101ori Television on 14 July, suggests a possible link between those residues and negative health outcomes amongst M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e262eea9f549198e759c09f2a881ca\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: That matter is currently being considered by the Environmental Risk Management Authority. At the moment the process used to consider the reassessment of 1080 poison includes 150 written submissions, 200 oral submissions in seven places, and 10 days of public hearings. As that matter is currently being considered, I am unable to comment on the content of those considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b7c5b5465654db9a63430fca9d17671\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister intend to insist that in carrying out its reassessment of 1080 poison, the Environmental Risk Management Authority will ensure that full independent peer review studies are done to look into the effect of sub-lethal doses of 1080 on all living creatures in the environment, as outlined in the New Zealand Herald article yesterday that stated: \u201Cmost native species are completed unstudied. \u2026 considerable evidence shows there are chronic and sublethal effects to vertebrate endocrine and reproductive systems, possibly including those of humans.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5b52062b6e459d8a39594903191ad6\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Although I continue to acknowledge the concerns raised with regard to 1080 poison, the process undertaken by the Environmental Risk Management Authority is an independent one, and once that report is presented to the Minister those matters will be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a0d38e6a644cb0964ab88a969a5d48\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table three documents. The first is the labelling on 1080 poison containers, which states: \u201CDanger, deadly poison\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8def4d190d1414285df5c2c2702253f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cfd440ed33d4037a05578dcf5398500\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: The second is a photograph of a sign erected by the Greater Wellington Regional Council, advising trampers to take their own personal water into the bush and not to take water from bush streams for consumption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8778991f4ad441da91f34a000b3572a\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that sign. Is there any objection? There is objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d993d995670347f1b19d85d37ec4d29f\u0022\u003EHon George Hawkins\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I did say that I objected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202eb32ea1cc14453a9c7fa30c4bc490e\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; there is objection. Would members, for once, raise their voices if they do object. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268f7c79fc04847b59446b110851ceb41\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: The third document is a copy of yesterday\u2019s New Zealand Herald article entitled: \u201CPoison facts belie the claims\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022048e2c5a58694edfa4d09c62df9c31f4\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d07c7faa5be4ec08dfb704832308f77\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Free Hours Participation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa329168b3bc4586b0947775cc0b15d5\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by his statement that \u201C86,000 children will definitely get 20 free hours under Labour\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00227b74769614ef4a138ed1edda2695f070\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b74769614ef4a138ed1edda2695f070\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I will announce the initial take-up of 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education for 3 to 4-year-olds on Monday, as has always been planned. I expect that over the next year the numbers benefiting will climb as more and more centres sign up because New Zealand families recognise that this policy is an excellent one, as does the member\u2019s leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022785cc862393a499780fcb4bbda50a873\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: How far short of his 20 free hours target will he be on Monday, and can we assume that the numbers of 3 and 4-year-olds are nowhere near the 86,000 to 92,000 to whom his Government promised 20 free hours, because if the numbers were remotely near those targets, he is just the sort of Minister who would be trumpeting that success from the rooftops right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278548ed15d974bd0ad3e4bee1acc6413\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It is worth drawing the member\u2019s attention to the fact that she has asked these questions for a number of months and has been given the same answer for a number of months. That answer is that we are optimistic about the number of centres that will come in on 1 July, we are optimistic about the number of young people who will be in, and that from 1 July, which is the beginning of this policy, the numbers will climb steadily over the following year. That is what we have said, that is what we expect, that is what we have said for months, that is what we are still saying, and that is what will happen on Monday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c63ad68c2498402f931957828c7ff254\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What is the benefit to early childhood education centres of the Labour-led Government\u2019s policy of 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220de7738a97a482b874412a5366fa6ab\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In the past, centres have had to rely on parents for fees, donations, and fund-raising. This policy will give them security and certainty of funding. On Monday centres offering 20 hours\u2019 per week free education will receive an advance payment covering the next 4 months, and the sum will be around $105,000 for an average centre. By contrast, National offers complete uncertainty. Paula Bennett told Radio New Zealand that National would not offer the policy. Katherine Rich is quoted in the Christchurch Press today as saying that National never said it would scrap it, and has not decided what to do. It looks to me like a case of aspirational John Key versus bean counter Bill English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f5ede92aec4c1e93872f41eab8c605\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister agree that if the objective of the free early childhood education policy is to increase early childhood education participation rates, the $109 million would have been better targeted to children 2 years old and under, rather than to 3 and 4-year-olds, whose participation rates are already much greater than 90 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2cf1ed24eb94e2194ba1d79db235dc4\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is indicating where policies like this might go over the years. We have to start somewhere; 3 to 4-year-olds, who are moving towards the age of starting school, seem the best place to start with this policy. But I think the member is raising the fact that probably, as time goes by, people will be looking for the expansion of the policy to different age groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb089b82e9144e92b7e283d9e513e4e6\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: When the first payment for 20 free hours is due to be direct-credited into accounts on Monday, why does he keep up the pretence that he has no idea how many centres have opted in, or how many kids are actually going to receive 20 free hours; does he seriously think this House believes that the Ministry of Education can undertake such a complicated financial transaction without having any idea of the numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246e2fb3a6944485bbaa69033969f525c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I have never kept up such a pretence. The fact of life is that I have been saying to the member for some time that she should just relax. The ministry has done a great job of administering this policy. The sector has responded very well to it. We have always planned\u2014for Mr Nick Smith, who will not stop yelling\u2014that the announcement will be on Monday. That is what we have always planned, and that is what we will do, so I ask the member just to relax and to get the news when it is due.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e692dfd41b24c6195f58513d5bdc215\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Does he understand that when he said that 86,000 New Zealand kids would get 20 free hours come 1 July, most parents thought that their kids would actually receive it. And what is with this inane coo cooing that the Opposition should relax; who the hell does he think he is\u2014Frankie Goes to Hollywood?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e73d18f89f904d6e8c5be5d8441cf7a5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The stress is starting to show\u2014that is all I can say. At no time have I said there would be 86,000 kids involved on 1 July. When that figure was put into the public arena, that was the number of 3 to 4-year-olds enrolled in early childhood centres. That is why that figure was used at that time. I say to the member that I have said a number of times over many months that when the policy rolls out we will give the updated figures, and I think that is a reasonable thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ea708acc1140f4af4dcac052535778\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: When will he just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d440d980bb6466dad79edc72218ca1d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I really like Frankie Goes to Hollywood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479fc07c6d1e44488c1377a276035327\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: He likes Frankie Goes to Hollywood? When will he just relax, focus on his own policy, and admit that come Monday nowhere near the 92,000 children whom he told New Zealand parents back in 2005 would get 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education will get it, and that his policy of 20 hours free is just a fraud?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e483578bbf74c9ab1d9e28d0c1b69de\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think I could be more relaxed if I tried. What I have always said on the way through this policy is that on 1 July it will start, and there will be a good muster of centres and of children. We are optimistic about that. Then the number will steadily climb. I would say that I think the number will be a little lower than it might have been, because the campaign to confuse people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214800f1a94fd41229403ba8e3178e665\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. My apologies to the Minister. It is simply that I am finding it extremely difficult to follow a word that the Minister is saying, because of the level of noise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c018d2e38474dc98b92c8f08f19a420\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the member. I do not want to rule that we should have the answer in silence; that seems to be too much of a provocation. But would members please just keep the level down. Would the Minister please respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aebe481884964513abc5c482f70d2aea\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In summary, I have established who is relaxed and who is not, and I was moving on to say that we have always made it very clear that 1 July was a start date, that there would be a good, optimistic number of centres and children in the policy, and that it will climb steadily from there. I did note that I think the campaign against this policy has meant that on 1 July some parents will not be getting their $60, $70, or $80 back from the policy, because of the campaign against it. No doubt, once they see it rolling out, they will roll into the policy, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4a8e4e74352428c82f320948d710e98\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: When he said yesterday that kindergartens have never been free, because they have always asked for donations and optional charges, was he finally acknowledging that his 20 hours free policy is not free, because centres can ask for donations and optional charges?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223212a4563049446c8e7ebeb186a8069c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: For the member\u2019s information, I was quoting the Waikato Kindergarten Association, which was pointing out that there always have been donations, there has always been a fee, and there always has been the fund-raising process that goes around it. The big benefit for kindergartens is that they now get a guaranteed sum of money; the average centre will get $105,000 on 1 July\u2014advanced funding for 4 months. That is stability and that is certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ce8a0a54a5d41cda73a1e266f758f37\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister continue to argue that 20 hours will be free, when most people will end up paying for their free hours through optional charges, and when he himself said yesterday that kindergartens had never been free, because people paid donations and optional charges; and does he finally understand that when one is paying for something, it is not free?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ab1b9285be84d84a7e06a359e5af263\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can only repeat, because the member seems to have missed it, that the quote yesterday was from the Waikato Kindergarten Association, which was pointing out the history of kindergarten funding. I thank the member for giving me the opportunity to repeat that the 20 hours free policy applies to the regulated level of 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education. This is a hugely popular policy, it is hugely popular around the country, and it is one that I know that the National Policy is looking forward to flip-flopping on and supporting as soon as it can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c275f583e4f3480aa937e93a34b5be61\u0022\u003EHuman Rights Commission\u2014Definition of \u201CInstitutional Racism\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f955a91f8aef4fb7b12b4acb4df43a0e\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Has he received a definition of \u201Cinstitutional racism\u201D from the Human Rights Commission following the complaint from Ng\u0101ti Uenuke-k\u014Dpako regarding a decision of the Rotorua District Council; if so, what was that definition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00225b4ff1ed2bd449d2a8e38f9b53599361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b4ff1ed2bd449d2a8e38f9b53599361\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a435b763cd614d32a6e7a6e965e42e87\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister agree with the 1986 Labour Government policy document P\u016Bao-te-ata-t\u016B - Daybreak, which stated that the most insidious and destructive form of racism was institutional racism; if so, what evidence can he see of changes having been made to Government institutions to remove that blight from our society?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249580050524d4e1f9572e54190633d89\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I have not read the document recently, but, generally, yes, I agree that institutional racism is an insidious form of racism. Huge changes have been made in the intervening period since that document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204acaae39dc2410dbb17dc08f073ca6f\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware\u2014obviously not\u2014that P\u016Bao-te-ata-t\u016B - Daybreak describes the differences between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori across a range of indicators, such as life expectancy and prison admissions, as being a picture of \u201Ccrisis proportions\u201D, and what response does he have to the fact that 20 years on the picture remains either unchanged or more dire?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c77c3ad4b894489b9158b9852d8508c4\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: There are many social indicators, and first among them, perhaps\u2014and certainly the one that drove me to stand for election to this House\u2014was the blight of unemployment on many families. I can say to the member that that negative statistic has been radically driven down. Is there room for even further improvement? Yes, and this Government is committed to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c3f7178cec4e84b359102d1d7f4032\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that Ng\u0101ti Uenuke-k\u014Dpako is considering a request for a cultural audit of the Rotorua District Council in order to address institutional racism, and would he consider the Human Rights Commission to be an appropriate entity to undertake this audit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b181ef59852427fa71dd29d1e7ebfa1\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I was not aware of that, and in answer to the second part, I say that it is entirely for the Human Rights Commission to consider any such approach made to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fce4399f39645cfbd369ec65adde522\u0022\u003EDistrict Health Boards\u2014Junior Doctor Vacancies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d969ac0f457e4035842b3c1ed770f0e4\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has he received any reports about a data request being distributed to district health boards seeking confirmation of the number of junior doctor positions for a recruitment programme in the United Kingdom; if so, what was the estimated demand for junior doctor positions indicated by the 14 district health boards who responded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022d98c6572409e4f96a009a43bf51a1ad4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d98c6572409e4f96a009a43bf51a1ad4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have. The approximate vacancy rate for junior doctors in New Zealand is about 5 percent. Most of those vacancies are filled on a day-to-day basis by locums. Given that there are about 2,800 junior doctor positions in New Zealand, 5 percent represents about 150 positions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227041b0913feb48cbba16dc662ef8fda4\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen this second leaked document from District Health Boards New Zealand, which makes it clear that recruitment will be sought in Britain for over 250,000 vacancies; and if there is no staffing crisis amongst junior doctors, why are district health board representatives going urgently to London to recruit these additional staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022776ae37af02f4237a27d332be1acf33a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think even the member exceeded himself when he said that district health boards were going to the United Kingdom to try to find 250,000 doctors. He might have meant 250.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fa8d12a5c294e58bf28436c203a6f39\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: He said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0880b8fc5554b61aab68e75fa11100c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Well, if he meant 250, what he has done is add in the registrars as well, and the vacancy rate for registrars is less than 5 percent. Mr Ryall can try to beat up a storm as hard as he can, but he should get his figures right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a23f768bf84994aef6f66b6083dd34\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a quote from the leaked document today: \u201CIn brief, there is an estimated demand to fill a total of 238 junior doctor positions.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d535e751fd014cedb220f64b0cd286e8\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c45684c6-7137-45b3-b30c-46206236e88b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cddb384dfe444259410c473a2e7d67c\u0022\u003ELesley Soper\u003C/span\u003E: Does New Zealand have a 5 percent vacancy rate in junior doctor positions because there is a reduction in junior doctors available to work, or because the health system is growing and creating new junior doctor positions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294c50087a6f841599bc8c80a00cace82\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is a pretty good question, and the answer is the latter. It is because our health system is growing. We have employed 1,400 more doctors since the change of Government and we want to employ about 140 more residential doctors\u2014about 140 more. In the short term, those vacancies of 140 will be filled by new graduates when they come out in November or December, and there are about 285 of those each year; by junior doctors recruited from Britain, and the district health board representatives are leaving for Britain on Monday; or by junior doctors who are working in New Zealand at the moment but are currently choosing to work as locums because they get better pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b69c56499a214d658056de68b9359c11\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government so willing to throw money at recruiting temporary staff from overseas, while at the same time it is refusing to take any initiative to retain our own people in permanent district health board employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e3c623f1764013b0cbb70813a6874e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is probably worthwhile pointing out that today\u2014the day when the member decides to try to beat up a crisis\u2014is the day that the junior medical industrial relations talks begin. Let us make sure that industrial relations discussions are not a very common feature of this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c59430f77a24f1ab10599baa7c7a279\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the quality of health care in public hospitals has improved during his reign; if so, does he also believe that patients are better off when they are treated by half a dozen different doctors during a 3-day stay in hospital, which is the reality for many of our sick, elderly patients; and is he so spaced out and out of touch that he does not understand that registrars are actually junior doctors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdcddcfa30e9481facfff950d602daaf\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I understand what a junior doctor is, but I also understand we do not need 250,000 of them. As to the number of doctors who are seen by a patient, I think that the member is assuming that a locum is a short-term position only. He should take a look at the facts. Locums often operate in a hospital, on their shift work, for a long period of time. There is actually a market for locums, and the market for locums is a little expensive for district health boards, which is one of the reasons why they are going to Britain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022996d732c28354b698ad17c8e115eed5c\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Is the real problem that the Government has increased health spending by a whopping $4.5 billion a year, with the only tangible result being that there are now more health bureaucrats than there are hospital beds, and is the Minister not embarrassed that this proliferation of pen-pushers has been at the expense of junior doctors and others at the coalface actually treating patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e21e34467374ccea7045ed6077427b5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have a trick question for the member. Does the member think that the number of managers in our health system is 8 percent, 6 percent, or 4 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221458f9542a5f43e98ad434509ab041ea\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is impossible to hear anything. Would the Minister please address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f66c2f2a718411d8b8022d4d5f5d1a1\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The question was about bureaucrats, and I am asking whether the number of managers is 8, 6 or 4 percent. The answer is 3 percent. Three percent of our district health board staff are managers; 97 percent of our district health board staff are not managers. The member trots out the fact that there are too many bureaucrats around\u20143 percent ain\u2019t bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603ae58e-47c4-46f9-bfc8-8355a48988ad\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201034627998b4099bd89f7eb47893ce9\u0022\u003EDr Jonathan Coleman\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with me that it is not acceptable for spending on hospital locums to double in 6 years to over $100 million, and does not this reliance on temporary staff show that working in a district health board is not an attractive career option because for every new doctor employed, district health boards employ another bureaucrat to keep an eye on that doctor? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eae344a01004ea4afc676c796a13fff\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do think the number of medical locums in New Zealand is too high. I agree with the member, and I look forward to the situation arising where we have sufficient junior docs to be able to reduce, at least somewhat, the locum market. As to the allegation that for every doctor we employ we employ a bureaucrat, I am not sure what bureaucrat the member refers to. It might be the bureaucrat who answers the phone, it might be the bureaucrat who arranges for the pay, it might be the bureaucrat who decides how the out-patient clinics will be put together, or it might be the bureaucrat who keeps the medical records safe. Which of those bureaucrats would he not have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d933872ca6644c7901888379975312e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister has finally admitted that the number of locums working in our hospitals is a concern to the Government, does the Minister agree with me that the skills and expertise of some locums can be variable, the locums are not subject to ongoing performance review or training, and their working hours are not monitored; and surely this must have an impact on the quality and continuity of care that particularly our older patients are experiencing in New Zealand\u2019s public hospitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc3b4d8600b04834906eada45f80fbe7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Far from finally admitting that locum\u2014[Interruption] The member may not know everything that I think or say. The member is not actually omnipresent. The member did not hear me talk at a workforce conference, just this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f0fbe31819c46978ad305ad7cf23170\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. The member has invited, through his question, an answer from the Minister. Would he please allow the Minister to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267c4359a105041e3a659004b58a7de62\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. There is nothing new for me in saying the locum market is growing too quickly. It has been growing for some years. It is an important part of the health system, because it allows for flexibility. But my view is that it is getting a little large. As to the quality of locums, I think the member needs to be quite careful. If the member is going to assert that locum doctors are of poorer quality or subjected to less auditing, he needs to come up with the evidence, because the Medical Council would be unlikely to agree with him, and the doctors with whom they work would be unlikely to agree with him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a164ce909354d51bd53eb47f42f936f\u0022\u003EFingerprinting\u2014Mobile Scanners\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de007ddaec1a422aa7d6cb63e803fa3f\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does she endorse the police proposal to use mobile fingerprint scanners on New Zealanders who have not been arrested or charged with any offence; if so, what steps will she be taking to introduce it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00223a31b110e7494a35ae83f5c8100f0d79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a31b110e7494a35ae83f5c8100f0d79\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Police: I can advise that the possibility that police might use mobile technology to verify identity arises from the discussion document Policing Directions in New Zealand for the 21st Century, which is the next step as part of a full review of the Police Act 1958. This discussion document is currently being consulted on with all political parties, and the public throughout New Zealand. The discussion document is not Government policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf54ac4711f4618a578b0cf6e4ece99\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister did not answer my question as to whether the Government actually endorses it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ae5912d84243989993eb76f73b68e3\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister did address that question through that answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0a7c6ea9d4740dd816bbe347c554f58\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister not accept that it is quite different and much more Orwellian to use these scanners on thousands of innocent New Zealanders who are not charged with any crime or have not been arrested, and how can the Minister sidestep the issue in that way, by saying that it is essentially up to the police to determine what happens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673f44b9d9ae4cee9d5f41960f532e50\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think I said anything that the member has just raised. I pointed out that there is a review going on, a discussion document called Policing Directions in New Zealand for the 21st Century. There are a range of ideas in there, and none of them constitutes Government policy at this stage. Because we are going through a process of discussion, does not mean that the police are now going to go off and do anything that is in the document. This is a discussion that the member will be involved in and the whole House can be involved in, because political parties have been sent the document. It is a well-overdue discussion about the Police Act, which was passed in 1958. I would basically refute all the points made there. The document is there and I invite the member to get stuck into it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a00015f831e641a0939ebc4468b417e1\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: What work has been done regarding an ethical framework for Government confiscation of biometrical information; and if no advice has been sought and quantified, will the Government continue to progress the means of taking biometric information from New Zealanders without ethical guidelines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237487a10cdca4c829869331311b23338\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that this discussion document will provide a very good opportunity for having a look at those kinds of frameworks going forward. One of the points I want to make here on behalf of this document is that there will be a large number of changes over the next little while in technologies and in challenging issues like the ethical framework for taking samples from people. This is the chance to discuss that. This is the chance to see whether we can put in place a framework that will deal with those complex issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1ed856a42e34ccd8c0522717b853677\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister not think it is going just too far, even to be considering having the police being able to fingerprint members of the public at will, and having commuting members of the public stripped naked by airport scanners, especially when this Parliament does not want MPs sitting here in a suit having their picture taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a03c8899344844a8d8a54a376069fa\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I imagine there are a lot of MPs in this Chamber who would fear the technology the member has just outlined being used at airports, but I do want to put on record that there is no such plan to make use of technologies like that as people go through airports. I also say that there are, as I mentioned before, opportunities for a large number of new technologies to be used in a variety of ways in years ahead, and this is a chance to discuss them. No one is saying anything will be used. Nothing is set in stone. The police are not doing anything. They are simply offering an opportunity to talk about these kinds of issues and revue an Act that was put in place in 1958, long before, for example, things like mobile phones were even thought of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e64290c1f94fe6a6687cb970bca216\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister say that the police are just offering an opportunity for debate or discussion, when it is clear that they are going all out to introduce these mobile scanners, which will violate the rights of thousands of innocent New Zealanders\u2014surely it is our right in a democratic society not to have our bodily integrity violated without due cause; and why should the Government just stand aside while the police fast track us to a surveillance State?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224913afbc17b24680a99ec45ea42e3162\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can simply say that I understand the issue the member is raising. Of course we want to be cautious about these kinds of new technologies. But this is a discussion document that offers an opportunity to talk about a wide range of issues that may or may not be part of the scene in the future. This is an opportunity to discuss it. The police are not fast tracking anything, to my understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c3802cb45f43659207c41e97980ab7\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Government stand aside from such a critical debate, where its police force is arguing strongly for a course of bringing in these Orwellian devices for fingerprinting, and also talking about bringing in iris scanners, when we see that these have been brought in in overseas jurisdictions that the Government has been following\u2014in fact, just this week the United States is bringing in 10-finger fingerprinting devices for New Zealanders passing through American airports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b6927ee9b44f9aa937893555215d57\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can only reiterate that there is nothing here other than a discussion, at the present time. But I stress that this is the 21st century. This Act was passed in the middle of the last century. It is time to have a discussion about things like new technologies. In some cases getting identities worked out may mean a person does not get arrested and does not have to go to the police station, because his or her identity has been established. This is a chance to have a discussion. This is an opportunity for the member to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229441d1ebf1b349b3aa7761a009974279\u0022\u003EForeign Nationals\u2014False Documentation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231c96f1c88f5442b878a7e420bcbe7d5\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: How many foreign nationals have entered New Zealand with falsified or fraudulent travel documents since 1 July 2003?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9bc3d03c8904fda800acc532b384e56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9bc3d03c8904fda800acc532b384e56\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E As I said yesterday, many fewer than under the previous National administration, which took 7 years to appoint just one fraud investigation officer, or to make any substantive amount of money available for border-related inquiries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6f3b9809a6140e1b1d26901bc854bdd\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How effective are the systems that, he told Parliament yesterday, his Government has established since 2003, if he cannot even tell this House how many identity fraud cases have been detected entering New Zealand since 2003; how effective are the systems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224034b38732e84ac1b692043c63c22ead\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: As I told the House yesterday, this Government has created a fraud detection unit in the Department of Labour, which now has 18 staff. We have essentially established the central verification unit and the immigration profiling group. We have substantially increased border funding by $136 million since 2001. We set up the Advance Passenger Processing system in 2003. We set up the CRisM risk management and identity system last year, and the regional movement alert system in 2006, and we have a substantial Immigration Change Programme under way. Compare that with the previous Government\u2019s effort!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46e24eb6704486485ce89eac1424300\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How effective are any of those measures, which he claims his Government has done, if he cannot tell this Parliament how many of the 596 immigration identity fraud cases identified by the Auditor-General involved people who are currently in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f399de085324c3e84c23eab1ee7f19b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: There are several reasons why I decline to give a number to the member. They are as follows. Firstly, identity fraud includes a complex set of subcategories, and it would be a mistake to compare apples and oranges. Secondly, of those cases of alleged identity fraud, a number, no doubt, in fact have not committed fraud. Thirdly, I am not prepared to disclose information that might affect ongoing investigations or apprehensions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1ad3e705a849b08a2cc26766ef6065\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that New Zealand\u2019s international reputation depends on the Immigration Service having robust systems for the detection of immigration identity fraud, and that serious lapses by his department, as highlighted in the report, have put our reputation at serious risk; does he accept that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d09699a987f4375b61d1793bd32af3f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I fully accept and support the proposition that of course our immigration system is important to both our border security and our international reputation. As I have said from the moment the report was launched, I support the report. It contains many valuable suggestions about ways in which we can further improve our system. We are implementing all of them and we will make that progress public. The contrast here is with the previous National Government, which did essentially nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2e985d4de15416fa14046a6af3de0da\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Precisely when was the Minister first advised that the Immigration Service was falling behind in its investigations of suspected immigration identity fraud cases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e64d991c439c4bb3b6372400afc306df\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: That would depend on what one meant by \u201Cfalling behind\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225322551331ec449e8562063fa8d327b8\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting those answers, will the Minister assure the House that processes will be put in place to ensure that those who should have been deported, and are currently sitting in our prisons because they will not sign the appropriate forms, will in fact be deported in relatively short order; can he give the House that assurance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2020928ebd34729a1a095994e6389cf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I gave the House an assurance yesterday that I have instructed the chief executive of the department to implement all 15 of the recommendations of that report. I have noted that three of them, to my estimation, include Budget commitments, which will be matters for consideration by Cabinet in due course. The cases that the member specifically raises, which are of people detained in prison for refusing to sign travel documents, are, I would estimate, unlikely to be related to cases of identity fraud, and more likely to be failed refugee claimants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c77b34f45a2483ea8f88504e72db433\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Auditor-General correct that almost 6 years after 9/11 the Immigration Service has no specific plan in place to detect identity fraud, little or no specific staff training in the area, no evaluations of effectiveness in preventing identity fraud, substandard tracking systems, and a large backlog of cases that the Auditor-General calls a \u201Csignificant risk\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022204950a689d84e6dbeebe77e4846023a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Right at the start of the Auditor-General\u2019s report, he makes two important points. Firstly, the department does have a set of processes and systems in place, for which he suggests some improvements. Secondly, right at the start, he indicates an awareness of the Immigration Change Programme, which already is, and has been for some time, working to address exactly those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022832a944c8dd44fbc9112494251ae17b2\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement made to the House yesterday: \u201Cin the last year the department has conducted 55 prosecutions.\u201D; if so, how does he reconcile his statement with figures supplied by his own department that show that just 47 identity fraud - related cases were prosecuted over not just the last year but the last 4 years combined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bff726b510d431db9d7d8911c0123c8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The member should be careful not to confuse apples with another fruit that is the colour of his tie. The number I gave yesterday of 55 cases was for the period from July 2005 to June 2006, and related to all types of immigration fraud prosecutions. The number given by Mary Anne Thompson to the Christchurch Press of 47 cases since 1 July 2003 related to only immigration identity fraud cases, which is a subset of the former.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002208c62addb6704c5d853737902e3617c0\u0022\u003ERenewable Energy\u2014Developments and Deployment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef15aa81cdce45bfb06797b2212f7bf6\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: What reports, if any, has he received on developments in the deployment of renewable energy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222156351f90ed4b7c90b534cc54acda99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222156351f90ed4b7c90b534cc54acda99\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Lines company Vector has commenced trialling a new wind turbine suitable for home and small-business use. Micro wind generation does have the potential to both improve our energy security and reduce our greenhouse gas emissions, and it also helps interested consumers to reduce their power bills through the use of a free energy source\u2014wind\u2014in a similar way to which reductions are achieved through solar hot water systems. I congratulate Vector on taking this initiative to test the viability of small-scale wind power, with a view to bringing it into mainstream use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223732f2a6b93142b68ba7b0ca57b15d10\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House of other recent examples of significant renewable energy development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfcea7bd820b4ebaaed806800e95a961\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Scion and AgResearch have recently announced a joint venture with a US-based firm to develop transport fuels, based on the conversion of cellulose to ethanol, from forestry and agricultural products. The second similar venture in the biofuels area is LanzaTech, where a leading US investor, Vinod Khosla, is investing $3.5 million in LanzaTech to establish a pilot plant to produce ethanol from carbon monoxide gas. To paraphrase the self-appointed spokesperson for Labour\u2019s biofuels policy, Nicky Wagner, this is another significant step towards carbon neutrality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229262bb8bb0484d18af9976496288f9b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why should anybody believe this Government\u2019s commitment to renewable energy, when the proportion of renewable power has dropped in every year Labour has been in Government, to the lowest level ever in New Zealand history; when his Government has built a huge new oil and gas-fired power station; and when the proportion of electricity produced from coal has trebled in just 7 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb56b271668b448fbf9b24f31fa7e5f1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Should we not have built E3P when we did, the country about now would be facing the risk of blackouts. That seems a pretty good reason to have built it, to me. In respect of greenhouse gas emissions from thermal generation this year compared with last year, assuming that lake levels, or inflows into hydro lakes, stay as they are at the moment, it is likely that thermal electricity emissions will be lower this year than they were last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf1ba2e058747849786e9c1e8476e78\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the Marlborough District Council\u2019s decision to grant consent to the Wairoa River hydro scheme, provided that natural river flows are maintained and there is minimal effect on river ecology and the survival of key endangered birds; and will he undertake that the Crown will not oppose stringent environmental conditions on that project, even if it means that there may be some lowering of the electricity output of the power station?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224478b700ec89487aa22718710a89de7f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen brief reports of the decision. I have not read the decision as yet. If the member\u2019s point is that we need to take care to have appropriate environmental constraints around renewable developments, as with other developments, then I agree. I, for one, support the principles of the Resource Management Act, and do not call for it to be \u201Cgutted\u201D, to quote one National Party member. I think that the help that councils and the Environment Court give to get the balance right between development and environmental protection has worked in New Zealand in the last decade, as evidenced by the fact that new versions of, for example, Project Aqua and the previous Dobson dam are coming forward that would be viable but with a lower environmental impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225dea60ba36e44bcebac0285bba2d102f\u0022\u003EChild, Youth and Family\u2014Caregivers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c15bc1567e4d839164d73821d0634c\u0022\u003EANNE TOLLEY (National\u2014East Coast)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF): Does she stand by her statement in the House on 8 May 2007 that \u201CI have confidence in Child, Youth and Family\u2019s approval process and selection procedure for the caregivers of young people who are in the youth justice system,\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00228e951b3074da4493af00a433e34242e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e951b3074da4493af00a433e34242e7\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I also have confidence in the procedure for caregivers and other support workers for young people who are not in the youth justice system. That includes the young man incorrectly described by both the Dominion Post and Anne Tolley as being under 24-hour-a-day, 7-day-a-week supervision ordered by the court. Those allegations, which are liable to cause distress in the community, are untrue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228947e133d3274fdc90be06cdd492e67d\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: How is it possible that yet another teenage sexual predator on 24-hour-a-day supervision from Child, Youth and Family is escaping from his minders and playing with neighbourhood children, and the authorities say they are powerless to control him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f61eef52fa9142c2ae8d9780d17a5383\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: For the record and for that member\u2019s benefit, although the information may have been more useful to her prior to her putting out her incorrect press statement, I say he is not in the youth justice system, he is not in the adult justice system, he is not in the custody of Child, Youth and Family, he has no court-imposed supervision order or any other supervision order, he is not required to be under supervision by anyone, and there are no conditions imposed by anyone, a court or otherwise, on any of his movements. Therefore, by definition, he cannot escape or get out. He is not required to be under supervision. He is not required to live anywhere. He is a free person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba74eba86ace4da1820d391a3968eb7b\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm the reports received by my office and communicated to Child, Youth and Family and to the Minister that a Child, Youth and Family worker introduced this teenage sex offender to other local children in the department\u2019s care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff07aa2f9df4dcf960600498d1d48de\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is not the allegation that the member made to me. I just repeat that this man is not under any supervision. He is completely free, as every member in this House is, and he is entitled to meet anyone he likes. There is no supervision requirement at all on this man\u2014not a single requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bad869239474c9c91523b62a5bddc45\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister stand in this House day after day, wringing her hands and saying that this sort of thing is unacceptable; and how many failures of the Child, Youth and Family system and cases of young offenders being out on the loose will it take before the Minister will admit there is a systemic failure in youth justice at Child, Youth and Family?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2a78c135a343f287309fe2deede3f8\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to make two points in response to the member\u2019s question. The first is that people in the youth justice system are generally not those who have recently graduated as dux from their local secondary school. They are not generally young people who come from a strong, supportive, functional family. They are, more often than not, young people who have lived in violent, abusive, dysfunctional families for their entire lives, which contributes to the likelihood of their being in the youth justice system, and they are, frankly, not easy to contain. In my view, on the occasions that they are at large, we should look at two things. First of all, was the supervision correct? If it was not, then I say to this House that that is unacceptable. Second, where it was correct, then I think that the caregivers should be supported. The member mentioned I had said that things were unacceptable. What I find unacceptable and morally reprehensible is that member misleading the public by saying incorrect things that are likely to cause distress to, and a vigilante response from, people in the Porirua community. That is unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d00655a8ef44345811191bfe5625136\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Minister publicly release the Child, Youth and Family report into the Wairaka Kokiri Trust, which lost one of its young offenders and did not report him missing for 3 months, in 2005, as she said she would in this House on Tuesday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f960e285dfe4fcab307ecbc3c5b110e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: When I get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255c70528296f4527a54fec69cc87206d\u0022\u003EOral Health\u2014Children and Adolescents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eb7c473534c41ed884ff4e9778988f6\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has he received any reports of recent developments in child and adolescent oral health services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002256efc81c3c2c419f89844e087b415efd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256efc81c3c2c419f89844e087b415efd\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I have received many, many reports. Child and adolescent oral health services are gearing up. They have already been reconfigured and upgraded in Southland, and district health boards in other areas have finalised, or are finalising, their business cases, with some district health boards\u2014for example, Canterbury District Health Board\u2014making their business cases public. Hawke\u2019s Bay District Health Board has done the same, only on Monday this week. Various central investment decisions are likely to be made for new facilities, including mobile services, soon. There is more action in child and adolescent oral health now than there has been in this country in many decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246a50e4b49c84b708f17a5597d2fccb7\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: Why is all this activity and investment needed; and does it mean that we are responding to a known need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b17017fd937d43db94acd13855ffd15f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is needed, because the National Government shut down dental therapy training in New Zealand in the 1990s, and it has taken until now to produce enough graduates to staff these new facilities that we are now building. And, yes, there is a known need amongst our children. The National Government\u2019s neglect can be measured by our children\u2019s oral health, which is declining. This is a serious situation, and an absolutely avoidable one; we must respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f536fea7df9c413491476ea298b95ce7\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: What funds, if any, have so far actually been distributed from the $40 million set aside in last year\u2019s Budget for children\u2019s oral health services, given that it is now more than a year since the Budget announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff496a01b8f4400911d14e98f8c2996\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am afraid I do not have the precise figure at my fingertips, but it would be quite a small amount. A number of investment decisions will, however, quite possibly be taken tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2bc0fc86938487da626932f0922a2c7\u0022\u003EEvidence Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c277589345843d28109264b3e99b2e9\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddc79a2209024ee5a087c7613a74ff71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddc79a2209024ee5a087c7613a74ff71\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Evidence Amendment Bill be now read a second time. This bill was introduced on 18 June 2007 and referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee for consideration. That committee reported the bill back to the House on Friday, 22 June 2007. I start by thanking the committee for its work in consideration of the bill within what was an agreed tight time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis bill deals with an amendment to the Evidence Act 2006, which was passed last year but is not yet in force. The Evidence Act retains the common law rule\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1b14f8840664f768a406efadae16726\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member. Would members leaving the Chamber please show some courtesy to the member addressing it. Courtesy is contagious and if we keep within the spirit of the Standing Orders, it will be good for everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dc3975eb37c48daae513c1f15059509\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Evidence Act retains the common law rule that a defendant\u2019s statement is admissible against him or her, but is not admissible against a co-defendant in the proceeding. However, the Act does not include the exceptions to that rule. This bill captures those exceptions, so that they will now be included in the Act. Two of the exceptions are known as the co-conspirators rule, which allows for the statements of a defendant to be admissible against a co-conspirator, or others involved in a joint criminal enterprise, where the statements are made in furtherance of a common design. The prerequisites to this rule applying are that there is independent evidence of both the existence of a conspiracy or a joint criminal enterprise, and the defendant being a member of that conspiracy or enterprise. This rule is preserved in a new section 12A, which provides that nothing in this Act affects the rules of the common law relating to the admissibility of statements of co-conspirators or persons involved in joint criminal enterprises. The select committee made no amendments to the substance of the preservation of this common law rule. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThere is another common law exception to the rule\u2014that is, that the defendant\u2019s statement is admissible against him or her but is not admissible against a co-defendant in the proceeding. That is where the co-accused, by his or her words or conduct, accepts the truth of the statement made by the defendant. The bill as introduced incorporated this common law exception into the Act by way of an amendment to section 27. The committee has amended the bill and moved this amendment to clause 12A with the co-conspirator\u2019s rule. The amendment provides that nothing in the Act affects the common law rules relating to the admissibility of a defendant\u2019s statement against a co-defendant, in circumstances where the defendant\u2019s statement is accepted by that co-defendant. This amendment will ensure that an amendment to section 27 will not have unintended consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThis bill contains important amendments that have serious implications for criminal trials involving multiple accused, and evidence obtained by interception of communications. Those cases generally involve major drug-dealing, organised criminal enterprises, or serious violent offending. These types of multi-defendant trials are costly, lengthy, follow from resource-intensive investigations, and often have a high profile. It is therefore important that the common law is maintained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EIn commending this bill to the House I again thank the Justice and Electoral Committee for its diligent work and the tight time frame inside which it has delivered this bill back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u00229b8d60acd9bb4f4da9348bb689598377\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b8d60acd9bb4f4da9348bb689598377\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Justice for those generous and kind comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe National Party will support the second reading of this bill, because it is necessary to make it clear, beyond any doubt whatsoever, that the common law exceptions that he referred to are retained in the law, following the enactment of the Evidence Act last year. In dealing with this second reading speech I want to go through the legislative history, because there is at least a question that perhaps the legislation is not necessary, and I want to deal with that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe Evidence Bill was introduced, I think, in 2005, and referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee. A specialist subcommittee of the select committee was formed, chaired by Mr Fairbrother, a Labour list MP, and on that specialist subcommittee were Dr Richard Worth and myself from the National Party, and Nandor Tanczos from the Green Party. We were ably assisted by the officials from the Minister\u2019s department and also by Robert Fisher QC, a former judge of the High Court of New Zealand. I also think it is fair to say that a great deal of work was done on the bill, as can be seen from the report of the Justice and Electoral Committee when the bill was referred back to the House. I think it is fair to say that the second reading and Committee stage were dealt with very quickly indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWhen the bill was introduced, and when it went to the select committee, the relevant clause, which is now the subject of consideration in this amendment bill, was clause 23. As originally introduced, this clause provided that evidence offered by the prosecution in a criminal proceeding of a statement made by a defendant is admissible, unless the statement is excluded under certain clauses, which are not relevant for the purposes of consideration this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EDuring the course of the select committee deliberations, concerns were raised about the form of that particular clause as drafted, and that message was picked up in the report back to the House. The committee recommended \u201Cthat clause 23 be amended so that a defendant\u2019s statement would be inadmissible against a co-defendant in joint criminal trials. A statement made by a defendant would be admissible only against that defendant.\u201D But it is very important that I quote the following sentence: \u201CThis would maintain the current law relating to statements by co-defendants.\u201D There is at least a very good argument that that would have picked up the common law. So the clause was amended to reflect that intent, but there was certainly no intention on the part of the subcommittee to alter the existing law and those common law exceptions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIndeed, there is an argument based on sections 10 and 12 of the Evidence Act that if this matter had ever gone to litigation, then the courts would have said that the common law exceptions were still relevant, even if the words were not explicitly referred to in the section. I say that, because section 10, which is a very important section, deals with the interpretation of the Evidence Act, and it provides, among other things, that the Act \u201Cmay be interpreted having regard to the common law, but only to the extent that the common law is consistent with\u2014(i) its provisions; and (ii) the promotion of its purpose and its principles; and (iii) the application of the rule in section 12.\u201D Section 12 deals with evidential matters not provided for, and, again, provides that the common law can be brought in \u201Cto the extent that the common law is consistent with the promotion of that purpose and those principles and is relevant to the decisions to be taken,\u201D. In those circumstances regard can be had to the common law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ESo based on the statement in the report back to this House on the Evidence Bill, and based also on sections 10 and 12 of the Evidence Act, there is a very respectable argument that this legislation that we are dealing with today is not, in fact, necessary. The point is, however, that after the enactment of the Evidence Act 2006 concerns were raised that the common law exceptions had not been captured in the codification. The Minister very fairly outlined the concerns that a large number of hugely expensive, complicated, time-consuming trials could be aborted because someone might run the argument that the common law exceptions had not been captured, and so the law had fundamentally changed. Hence the need for this amendment legislation, and the select committee has dealt with it as quickly as possible in order that it be clear beyond any doubt whatsoever that the common law has been preserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003ENow, then, let us look at the Evidence Amendment Bill as introduced and how it has emerged from the select committee. The Minister quite rightly says some changes have been made by the select committee. It is important, first, to refer to clause 5, which inserts section 12A. As originally introduced, that section baldly stated: \u201CNothing in this Act affects the rules of the common law relating to the admissibility of statements of co-conspirators or persons involved in joint criminal enterprises.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E Clause 6 deals with an amendment to section 27. It originally provided that section 27 was to be amended by adding \u201Cunless by the co-defendant\u2019s words or conduct the co-defendant is taken to have accepted the truth of the statement made by the defendant\u201D. Not only has the select committee amended the new section 12A so that we bring into the body of that section the rules of common law relating to admissibility of statements of co-conspirators or persons involved in joint criminal enterprises, but also we have picked up those concluding words that clause 6 was to add to section 27(1), and made them paragraph (b) of new section 12A. That, of course, refers to \u201Cthe admissibility of a defendant\u2019s statement against a co-defendant in circumstances where the defendant\u2019s statement is accepted by the co-defendant.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThen, through clause 6, we have amended section 27 by adding subsection (4), which states: \u201CTo avoid doubt, this section is subject to section 12A.\u201D Some members may think it is rather odd when dealing with an amendment to section 27 of the Act, which is in Subpart (3)\u2014in Part 2\u2014 which deals with defendants\u2019 statements, to have a new section 12A, which will be in Part 1, dealing with general provisions. But what we wanted to do was make it upfront in the general principles section that the common law exceptions have not gone west, as it were, by a side wind, but they are still very much part of the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EEven if some of us think there was no doubt as to whether the common law was still retained, I agree with the Minister that because this is such an important issue, because of the cost and the complexity of these multi-defendant trials in the circumstances he has described, it is better, beyond doubt, to dot the i\u2019s and cross the t\u2019s and make it quite clear that the common law exceptions are retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EReference to the common law is not the best way of legislating, particularly when there has been such a fundamental root and branch reform of the law, but in the circumstances and in the time available, what we have done by way of amendment to the new section 12A was considered to be the best way of dealing with this. In my third reading speech I will perhaps point out some routes for the future, particularly when it comes to the first 5-yearly review of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u0022038a2257a8844ffb9a41cadb556ee50d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022038a2257a8844ffb9a41cadb556ee50d\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call in the second reading debate of the Evidence Amendment Bill. I do not intend to speak for a long period of time. Much of what ought to be said relating to this technical tidying-up amendment has been said by the two previous speakers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs has been noted, the bill will correct an accidental, arguable omission from the Evidence Bill passed in November last year. Clearly there would potentially have been serious implications for a number of criminal trials involving multiple defendants if tidying-up legislation were not passed by Parliament in a timely fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs has been noted, under the common law and under section 27 of the Evidence Act 2006 a defendant\u2019s statement is admissible against the defendant but not admissible against a co-defendant in the same proceeding. There are three exceptions under the common law to the rule. These clearly ought to have been inserted into the Evidence Bill during the select committee process, but that omission was not picked up. I must say that this is a rare omission on the part of a committee that otherwise works hard and thoroughly and normally addresses matters wholly and thoroughly. Those common law exceptions are where the co-defendant accepts the truth of the statement; things said and done in furtherance of a common design in a case where conspiracy is alleged; and things said and done in furtherance of a common design where the accused are alleged to have engaged in a joint criminal enterprise. The bill, as has been noted, will put these three exceptions into the Evidence Act 2006, putting it beyond doubt that it will reflect the common law. Obviously, there will also need to be an amendment to section 5 of the Evidence Act, to replace the word \u201CAct\u201D with \u201Csection\u201D, to reflect the fact that there is a split commencement date in the principal Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EI conclude by recording my appreciation for the multipartisan way in which this legislative tidying-up measure was able to be progressed and expedited, and I commend the Evidence Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f10a5e69a05a4146b0974ddf6e6b87ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f10a5e69a05a4146b0974ddf6e6b87ba\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Evidence Amendment Bill has the support of the Green Party, notwithstanding the rather unusual procedure of the bill\u2019s passage, in terms of both the speed with which it was introduced to the House and then dealt with by the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2014it was unfortunately hasty\u2014and the procedure today where we will be dealing with all of its remaining stages at this sitting. I have to say that the Green Party is normally very reluctant to support procedures of this kind, because it is very easy for the House to make inadvertent mistakes through the hasty making of legislation. There are important constitutional reasons why we have normal procedures\u2014in particular, to ensure there is adequate opportunity for members of the public, for professionals involved, for other people involved, and for experts to come and make comment on the legislation we are seeking to enact. It is unfortunate that that has not been the situation here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ENevertheless, we have accepted the Government\u2019s argument that there is urgency around this matter\u2014that the amendments made by the select committee to what is now the Evidence Act left some confusion around a matter and left some concerns\u2014and that it needs to be rectified promptly in order that cases currently before the courts are not adversely affected. So the Greens are supporting this unusual procedure and we are supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe first question we had to determine in coming to our position was the question of whether the bill was necessary at all, and I make reference to the comments of Mr Chris Finlayson around this matter. It was something the select committee discussed, and it is an important point because the question was whether the amendments made by the select committee actually did away with the common law or preserved it. That is the concern, and the reason why it is important to pass the legislation is to make absolutely clear that the common law is retained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThere is a reasonable argument to be made that the common law provisions should still remain. As I say, Mr Finlayson has canvassed those arguments, but I think it is worth referring to some of those specifics. Let us take a look at the Evidence Act\u2014and excuse me while I just find my way through this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a1f9b9c56cc4a239dcdaf8d1f629434\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the member got down there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642dc6d42b7640218860963929b4373d\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a laptop. I am sure Mr Power has heard of them; I know some members of this House are unfamiliar with the term. The new Public Access to Legislation website is great stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESection 12 states: \u201CEvidential matters not provided for\u2014If there is no provision in this Act or any other enactment regulating the admission of any particular evidence or the relevant provisions deal with that question only in part, decisions about the admission of that evidence\u2014(a) must be made having regard to the purpose and principles set out in sections 6, 7, and 8; and (b) to the extent that the common law is consistent with the promotion of that purpose and those principles and is relevant to the decisions to be taken, must be made having regard to the common law.\u201D The question then arises whether that provision gives adequate direction to the court to include those common law considerations into the decision about whether the particular evidence will be admitted. Of course, if we look at those purposes\u2014which I will return to\u2014we see that it does not seem that they would be inconsistent with the bill\u2019s purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EBut the question does of course remain with some of the other sections. Section 7 states: \u201CFundamental principle that relevant evidence admissible\u2014(1) All relevant evidence is admissible in a proceeding except evidence that is \u2026 (b) excluded under this Act or any other Act.\u201D The concern is that that actually overrides that common law provision. I think it is fair to say that we came to the view that the bill is required, not because we are certain that the amendments did away with the common law but because we are uncertain. It leaves a degree of uncertainty that is important not to leave in place, because of the cases I have previously mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe question then arises\u2014given that the bill is necessary\u2014as to whether this is the best way to solve the problem. Again, Mr Finlayson has referred to these arguments. There is a contradiction in including in an Evidence Act an amendment that is expressly designed for the purposes of clarifying the laws of evidence, collating them in one place, and making them accessible to the general public. Those purposes are countered, then, by having a reference to the common law, a reference that by its nature is unclear. So it is unfortunate that this is the way the bill has had to go, and that is one of the issues that I and other members raised in the first reading. Yet given the requirements of haste that are so important with regard to this bill, the argument was made by advisers that the attempt to make explicit the common law rules was problematic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThis was partly because of the time frame, but partly because there are undecided questions still to be determined in the higher courts around these issues of co-conspiracy. My understanding\u2014and I am not a lawyer and I am not familiar with the cases\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254512e055e8d4a819e15758b43886a84\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: You should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224db523aa31764b828ca408d4032b9f85\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member; that is very kind\u2014well, I think it is very kind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EMy understanding is that the case in particular that was being referred to is around the question of what actually qualifies as a co-conspiracy. Although that is different from the question of what evidence is then allowed, the point about where those rules are going to apply is clearly germane to the whole issue. So in accepting the argument that some undecided issues are still to be resolved, we accept that this is the way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EJust as a point on the side, I was quite interested about why we talk about the statements of co-conspirators or persons involved in joint criminal enterprises, rather than of those alleged to be involved in those things. It seemed to me to be contrary to that basic principle of being innocent until proved guilty. But the point was made that it is put in that way because for these rules of evidence to apply, the co-conspiracy or joint criminal enterprise has to be already proved. So we are not talking about people alleged to have been involved in such enterprises; we are talking about co-conspirators or persons involved in joint criminal activities. It not the best thing that these things remain undefined, because, as I said, one of the main purposes of the bill was to codify and to clarify the legislation, and to make it accessible to the general public. Again, if we go back to section 6 of the Evidence Act, where it talks about the purpose, we see that \u201Cenhancing access to the law of evidence\u201D was one of the quite explicit purposes outlined there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESo it is unfortunate that this has had to be this way. The Justice and Electoral Committee made an amendment in relation to the issue of where a defendant accepts the truth of a statement of a co-defendant. The suggestion, which I think came from Mr Fairbrother, of a way to restate that was a very good one, and it avoided some of the problems that were raised in the first reading. I also note that there is a review process to ensure that these issues can be dealt with again on a later occasion, and so the actual codification, which is what we actually desire, can be done more clearly at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2de02df07b9404589110dc705fbb926\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2de02df07b9404589110dc705fbb926\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Assistant Speaker. Ka nui te mihi ki a t\u0101tou katoa m\u014D t\u0113nei w\u0101. No area is probably under more negative public scrutiny at the current time than the criminal justice system. This in itself is probably a good thing. Too often the system comprising our courts, our jails, and our judiciary is shrouded in mystery. Incarceration and sentencing decisions are vigorously debated around kitchen tables, but they are not, it would seem, open to nationwide discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo it was a matter of some interest when Norm Withers of Christchurch instigated a petition in 1997 after an unwarranted, brutal attack on his 72-year-old mother. This petition eventually led to the 1999 law and order referendum, so it was obvious that there was intense public interest in the laws of criminal justice. This interest in the law is not just about the outcomes of the law in operation; it extends also to the system\u2019s inner workings\u2014the ambiguities, the complexities, and the rules around evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ESo today we come to the Evidence Amendment Bill, which is another example where the law itself is proven to be faulty. In essence, it is about an error made at the select committee that meant the co-conspirators rule was unintentionally deleted. We hear that the three common law exceptions to the rules about ensuring that a defendant\u2019s statement can be heard against a defendant but not a co-defendant in the same proceedings have been missed out of the Evidence Act 2006. The passage of law that this House went through last year in supporting the Evidence Act 2006 was such that we were all, really, partners in crime to the central problem that today\u2019s bill addresses. It is this sort of blind faith that Parliament entered into that I believe is useful to examine a little bit further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe legal system should not be beyond the scrutiny of the law. The fact that the Justice and Electoral Committee intended to maintain the co-conspirators rule but did not do so should be subjected to scrutiny, as well as be addressed as we are doing today. In the interests of a healthy democracy, we must ensure that open access to criticism is a part of the normal way of running business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn the case of this urgent amendment to the Evidence Act 2006, the consequences would have been particularly important in cases where evidence is obtained whereby one defendant makes a statement that under the current law is able to be used against another defendant. My co-leader Dr Sharples talked extensively the other day about the implications of such a ruling in the case of serious drug-dealing trials, which often involve organised criminal groups. He talked about his own experience with the Patua te Ng\u0101ngara, or Beat the Demon, drug education programme, and how the mistake in law, unintentional or not, would have counted heavily in multi-defendant trials such as class A drug trials. So it makes us think that if one error can happen, such as the one we are dealing with today, then what about the other miscarriages of justice that may not as yet have been identified? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt reminds me of the old saying that justice delayed is justice denied. What about those people who may have spent years fighting for damages, and who are struggling with dwindling finances, with the toll of the case weighing heavily on their relationships or on their general state of health? It will be well known in this House that even lawyers have expressed a lack of faith or confidence that justice will be done through the legal system. For a particularly comprehensive understanding of this issue I refer the House to a 1999 publication by the Law Commission entitled Te Tikanga o te Ture: Te M\u0101tauranga o ng\u0101 W\u0101hine M\u0101ori e pa ana ki t\u0113nei. This report on M\u0101ori women\u2019s access to justice\u2014he putanga m\u014D ng\u0101 w\u0101hine ki te tika\u2014sums up the issue of how well our justice system functions: \u201CMaori women identified the dominance of colonial values and lack of Maori personnel in the legal system as the major barriers to justice. Looked at from another angle, the lack of knowledge of Maori values and culture and the lack of Maori personnel heightened their perception of injustice\u201D. So, of course, the notion that there is injustice in the system of justice is not new, but it is always useful to consider when another opportunity presents itself, as it does in this case around abolishing the common law rule relating to co-conspirators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EHow does the law work in practice? How well does the adversarial system serve the cause of justice? How can we ensure that the systems of decency, integrity, honesty, and accountability apply as much to lawyers and judges as they do to expert witnesses or clients? We have been interested, in the context of such questions, to learn about the establishment of a legal issues centre at the University of Otago, which has been set up to provide such a bird\u2019s-eye view. The dean of the University of Otago\u2019s faculty of law, Professor Mark Henaghan, described it as follows: \u201CEverything about the system hinders accessibility. Even the cost of lodging an application stops many people from pursuing a claim, even where the evidence is overwhelmingly in their favour\u201D. So the professor has raised concerns about the monitoring and enforcement of codes of ethics such as those stipulated by the Law Society. He has also raised the concept of alternative models of resolving disputes\u2014an area that the M\u0101ori Party is keenly interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E The pursuit of justice, te wh\u0101inga i te tika, has always been important in the M\u0101ori world view. In M\u0101ori terms, justice recognises that kaupapa and tikanga are the first law of this land. The M\u0101ori Party acknowledges that justice is best achieved not by merely changing the content of existing laws but also by reconsidering\u2014in good faith\u2014the processes through which laws are made and the principles that underpin them. So we believe that if manaakitanga is to be effectively acknowledged, the mana of all peoples might be properly and respectfully acknowledged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIt is essential that the ideal of a fair and just community be established, both in the structural functioning of society and in the operations of the justice system. The M\u0101ori Party is pleased to support the Evidence Amendment Bill, not only in terms of rectifying the initial error but also to remind the House of the importance of ensuring that there are appropriate and responsive social conditions and legal processes to properly acknowledge the fundamental importance of a functioning democracy. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00222e4404adef8b42718e20092d3dcd6ea5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e4404adef8b42718e20092d3dcd6ea5\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I just take this opportunity briefly\u2014and I emphasise the word \u201Cbriefly\u201D\u2014to thank Chris Finlayson for putting in the time and effort on behalf of National during the select committee process for the Evidence Amendment Bill. He was very helpful to us when the Minister of Justice first wrote to National, as a party, on 14 June seeking its cooperation in expediting this legislation through the House, and National members are grateful for the expertise he brings to issues like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI also echo the comments made by the Green member Nandor Tanczos. Historically, National has not been comfortable with legislation moving this speedily through the House. In fact, arrangements as initially suggested were further discussed, to result in the passage of the legislation that we are seeing today. Proper scrutiny of legislation is important to members on this side of the House. Although we can debate at length whether the Evidence Bill, as it first emerged from the select committee, needs the work done that the amendment bill proposes, in terms of whether the common law would cover off the exceptions and the like in respect to admissibility of co-defendants\u2019 evidence, the point has been made by both Charles Chauvel and Chris Finlayson\u2014and Nandor Tanczos, to be fair\u2014that, at the very least, Parliament has an obligation to clarify the law beyond doubt. I do not believe that the issue of whether an initial error was made is of significance at this point, other than to say that we now know that the legislation will contain a degree of certainty that we hope will not see this particular legislation returned to the House for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is the intention of the House to move to the Committee stage shortly and then to the third reading of this bill\u2014all this afternoon. I just remind members that moving legislation through that process in the way that we are doing this afternoon is not at all\u2014except in very exceptional circumstances\u2014a satisfactory way to see legislation moved through Parliament. Certainly, those who have responsibility for areas like justice or those who have shadow Attorney-General roles or the like will agree\u2014as, I am sure, the Minister of Justice himself would\u2014that such processes are not ideal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI believe that in order for this legislation to be as good a law as it possibly can be and to avoid court proceedings discussing whether the common law covers off some of the issues raised by this amendment bill, getting the certainty around this legislation before its implementation is a helpful thing to do. National members will be constructive during the remaining stages of this bill\u2019s passage through both the Committee of the whole House and its third reading. On this occasion I think I can say that the House has decided to put aside traditional matters of partisanship on issues in the justice\u2014including criminal justice\u2014area and will try to see this legislation move as speedily as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed1bf5d43bc8483b9116d604fa7d3358\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed1bf5d43bc8483b9116d604fa7d3358\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I too shall take a very brief call, on behalf of New Zealand First, to indicate that we will support this amendment to the Evidence Act. I make a couple of notes. Firstly, New Zealand First does not have a member on the Justice and Electoral Committee, which considered this bill. We therefore will be holding to the opinions of the members of the committee, and to the research and work done by them. We thank those people for their reports. We get a little bit concerned when legislation is pushed through swiftly\u2014there is an old saying, \u201CLess haste, less waste\u201D\u2014and we have a habit of finding ourselves back in this House redressing legislation where errors have occurred because bills have been moved through hastily. But the select committee members seem happy that they have done the necessary work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI do note that the conclusion of the commentary states: \u201CDespite making these recommendations \u2026 This amendment should not be seen as resiling from the purpose of the Act. Section 202 of the Act sets out a very clear mechanism for mandatory review of this codification. The first review is to commence on 1 December 2011 \u2026\u201D. That is a little confusing, because it then states: \u201Cor at a later date set by the Minister of Justice.\u201D I guess we would like a bit of clarification. Will it be on 1 December 2011 or not? Again, even in passing the bill through this stage, there appears to be a little bit of uncertainty as to whether it will completely do the job, whether it will need to be reviewed again, and whether that review will be done in 2011, as stipulated, or some time thereafter. It does seem to inject a higher degree of uncertainty, again, into what was essentially legislation that many questioned the need for in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E That does leave New Zealand First with the very curious question: \u201CWhat\u2019s it all about, Alfie?\u201D. I guess we will simply trust in the select committee. Our overriding concern is that for people involved in criminal activities\u2014particularly organised crime and high-level crime\u2014the law as it currently stands would not make it possible for co-defendants or co-conspirators to be prosecuted successfully. That, in this day and age, where methamphetamine is reportedly becoming an $800 million industry to the gangs and organised crime, is of grave concern to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to hear some of the concerns about the justice system as a whole in the light of press statements and press releases today by various MPs about organised crime. I again put it on the record that New Zealand First has no truck with organised crime. Legislation that can be put through this House that makes it easier to prosecute, and gives the police the tools they need to put out of business gangs who meddle and peddle in mind-altering drugs that are fed to the children in our communities, will always have New Zealand First\u2019s support. In fact, we look forward to the day when this House supports our anti-gang legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe do not buy into some of the rhetoric we have been reading today. To those who would advocate that \u201CHug a Gang Day\u201D is here, we would simply say: \u201CBeen there, done that, and it didn\u2019t work.\u201D Robbie Muldoon tried it, and a range of other people have tried it. We have talked until we are blue in the face, and the only thing we see is that gangs are bigger and stronger than they have ever been, and that they are attracting young people into their midst in numbers that are of grave concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThis legislation, hopefully, will put a stopgap in the small hole that makes it difficult for the police to prosecute people and successfully gain convictions against conspirators and co-conspirators. That has to be a good thing. We will support the bill through the second reading and through the Committee stage. But we will be listening, I have to say to gentlemen like Chris Finlayson, for further views and analysis, to see whether it indeed is the case that a subsequent review of this second amendment proves that there needs to be a third amendment to a piece of legislation that was widely considered as being not necessary in the first place. We will see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266f650248e584c4a878974ff71814e56\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002205262c708380435486c73e34a9065434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205262c708380435486c73e34a9065434\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Consistent with what I understand was the general discussion at the Business Committee, to facilitate the progress of this bill I seek leave for the Committee stage be taken as a single, wide-ranging debate and for there be one question at its conclusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd6bdad29d11455eada49289894d36a9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b723550c9bc4ecb9edda61118d34bb9\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2b1027729fe4dd48a57b036f2711a96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2b1027729fe4dd48a57b036f2711a96\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to speak to Parts 1 and 2, although it is fair to say that in the second reading I probably have tortured the House sufficiently on how we actually got to where we are in the bill as reported back. But let me make a couple of comments, because to the observer it might seem strange that section 27 of the Evidence Act is amended by inserting new section 12A in quite a different part of the Act. Why we are putting it in the general, or preliminary, provisions is to make it quite clear upfront that in this category of case, nothing will affect the rules of the common law relating to either the admissibility of statements of co-conspirators or persons involved in joint criminal enterprises, or, in that second category, the admissibility of a defendant\u2019s statement against a co-defendant in circumstances where the defendant\u2019s statement is accepted by the co-defendant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI have already explained in the select committee how section 12A, as introduced in clause 5, will differ from the new section 12A as it will be enacted. It was simply that rather than tack a subordinate clause on to the end of the existing section 27(1), which is in the legislation, we have brought it together in one section so that the law is as clear as it can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EMr Tanczos made the extremely good point in the second reading that the law, even as enacted in this form, is not clear beyond all reasonable doubt, or beyond any doubt whatsoever\u2014one can apply one\u2019s own test\u2014because there is a reference to the common law, and the common law by its very nature is always changing and evolving. It could well be that this area of the common law will change again in the near future because, as he said, a couple of cases before the superior courts of this land at the present time touch on these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI will address the points made by Mr Mark in his second reading speech when I deal with those issues in the third reading. It would be good if by the time of any review, the Law Commission and Parliament try to codify what exactly are the principles of the common law that we are dealing with here. As Mr Chauvel said, there are three exceptions at the moment, but it would be good to bring them into the Act because section 6, which is a very important section of the Act, talks about one of the purposes of the legislation being: \u201C(f) enhancing access to the law of evidence.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E As a result of the changes we have made to clause 5 and to the new section 12A, there have to be a couple of minor amendments to clause 6. Rather than have the clause that I have referred to tacked on to the end of section 27, we have put it in the new section 12A, and then linked section 27 to the new section 12A by adding a new subsection (4) to section 27 that makes it clear and avoids doubt that this section, dealing with defendants\u2019 statements offered by the prosecution, is subject to section 12A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EPart 2 deals with consequential amendments. As can be seen from section 27, certain evidence is not admissible if it is excluded under the provisions of sections 28, 29, or 30. As a result of the changes we have made, it follows logically that sections 28, 29, and 30 need minor amendments by inserting, after the words \u201Cthe defendant\u201D, the phrase \u201Cor, if applicable, a co-defendant\u201D. So those consequential amendments are necessary to give some structure to sections 28, 29, and 30 in the light of the amendments made to section 27 and to the new section 12A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EI hope that clarifies the position. The National chief whip is indicating to me that I have been as clear as mud, but there we are. It is a technical matter, but at the end of the day it is an important matter for the reasons the Minister has outlined. That is why having the Committee stage follow on immediately from the second reading is so necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00228bb4d4e0a3654fd5a90a30198856727e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bb4d4e0a3654fd5a90a30198856727e\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Mr Finlayson for that contribution. I think it was helpful for members of the public to hear some of the reasoning that went on behind some of the amendments made by the Justice and Electoral Committee. I would like to expand a little around the new section 12A, in clause 5, because I think people may find it useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EAs has been stated, in the original amendment bill as introduced, clause 6 read that section 27(1)\u2014about rules against the inclusion of the evidence of co-defendants against a defendant\u2014was amended so that that evidence was inadmissible \u201Cunless by the co-defendant\u2019s words or conduct the co-defendant is taken to have accepted the truth of the statement made by the defendant\u201D. In my first reading speech I referred to concerns around that. The issue was illustrated by a hypothetical example that Mr Fairbrother raised in the select committee. In fact, he was the author of the example I mentioned in the first reading, which was a situation where there are two co-defendants, neither of whom is giving evidence. A statement made by defendant A asserts a number of things. That evidence is not admissible against defendant B, and defendant B is not taking the stand. In the course of cross-examining another witness, defendant B\u2019s lawyer makes reference to some of the assertions made by defendant A. For example, defendant A has said: \u201CWe were in a blue car.\u201D, so defendant B\u2019s lawyer asks: \u201CIs it true that there was a blue car?\u201D, and asserts some of the secondary facts contained in that evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe question that Mr Fairbrother had was whether the use of those assertions would imply an acceptance by defendant B of the truth of the statement made by defendant A. I think it was a fair question, because part of the concern was that by clause 6 being framed in the way it was, it was actually unclear what was meant by \u201Cis taken to have accepted the truth of the statement\u201D. Clarifying that was important, as was nevertheless retaining the common law around it. As was stated, there already were quite clear common law rules about where this evidence would be admissible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThat is why the select committee came to this formulation. Mr Fairbrother was instrumental in our achieving it. The advisers and the Parliamentary Counsel Office were also crucial in getting the right phrasing. Now, instead of that rule being in a separate clause, it is included in the new section 12A. Rather than that rule being stated in that way, new section 12A, \u201CRules of common law relating to statements of co-conspirators, persons involved in joint criminal enterprises, and certain co-defendants preserved\u201D, now states: \u201CNothing in this Act affects the rules of the common law relating to\u2014(a) the admissibility of statements of co-conspirators or persons involved in joint criminal enterprises;\u201D\u2014which is the issue I addressed in my second reading speech, but also\u2014\u201Cor (b) the admissibility of a defendant\u2019s statement against a co-defendant in circumstances where the defendant\u2019s statement is accepted by the co-defendant.\u201D The crucial thing is that the common law position that already exists is retained, rather than a new formulation being created that creates uncertainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESo I think that was a helpful thing. It shows that even though we had only 1 day of consideration of this bill\u2014it was a very speedy process\u2014that 1 day was important and significant in our addressing this problem and tidying it up to a degree where that certainty has now been preserved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 9 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229af0e51cd8ed48b2ba0689f4cf2193db\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002260f391a4ad764a91ac50154d3b5f2785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260f391a4ad764a91ac50154d3b5f2785\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Evidence Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill deals with an amendment to the Evidence Act 2006, which, as we have heard rather repeatedly this afternoon as the House has facilitated the progress of this Evidence Amendment Bill, was passed last year but is not yet in force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Evidence Act retains the common law rule that a defendant\u2019s statement is admissible against him or her, but it is not admissible against a co-defendant in that proceeding. However, the Act does not include the exceptions to the rule. This bill, therefore, captures those exceptions so that they are included in the Act. These exceptions, as we have discussed, are included in the new section 12A, which is inserted by clause 5 of the bill. This section provides that nothing in this Act affects certain common law rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe first of these is known as the co-conspirators rule. Section 12A preserves the rules of the common law relating to the admissibility of statements made by co-conspirators or by persons involved in joint criminal enterprises. At common law, if certain prerequisites are met, then the acts or words of a defendant are admissible against co-conspirators or others involved in a joint criminal enterprise, where the acts or words are done in furtherance of a common design. The prerequisites are that there is independent evidence of the existence of a conspiracy or a joint criminal enterprise, and that the defendant\u2019s participation in the conspiracy or joint criminal enterprise is established. The other common law rule section 12A preserves is that relating to the admissibility of a defendant\u2019s statement made against a co-defendant in circumstances where the defendant\u2019s statement is accepted by that co-defendant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThese amendments are required in order to retain the current law once the Evidence Act comes into force; they do not change the current law. Not retaining the current law would have serious implications, as I indicated during the second reading. It would have serious implications for criminal trials that involved multiple accused and evidence obtained particularly by the interception of communications. As I have indicated, and as I think members fully appreciate, these cases generally involve the likes of major drug dealing, organised criminal enterprise, and/or serious violent offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EClearly, these types of trials with multiple defendants are costly, they are lengthy, they follow resource-intensive investigations, and they often have a high community profile. They are not the sorts of cases that any member would want to see put at risk. Therefore, members have generally cooperated to ensure the rapid progress of the legislation through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022579effd73b30473bad389aea237fb8ac\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CGenerally\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9f40856ef304375bf13cb169b9fe3dd\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; members have cooperated completely. The member is absolutely correct. If these amendments are not made, then those people accused of serious crimes could indeed, in a worst-case scenario, be discharged or the charges would have to be dropped. That is not a situation that members would want to see happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI close by acknowledging again the cooperation we have had from members of the House and the diligent work of members of the Justice and Electoral Committee. I thank them for it. It is refreshing and, I have to say, enjoyable to have participated in a cooperative and collaborative process in order to see the House achieve a small but important piece of work that we all agree is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022 data-id=\u002207703fb61a6741cfa07a3191c9d5fac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207703fb61a6741cfa07a3191c9d5fac6\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a somewhat surreal experience to go through a second reading stage, Committee stage, and third reading stage as quickly as we have done this afternoon. There seems to be little point in going back and making reference to my second reading speech when it was given only about an hour ago. So I will not do that, and I will not upset the chief whip by going through yet another turgid analysis of the newsection 12A, to be inserted in the Evidence Act 2006 by clause 5 of the Evidence Amendment Bill, or addressing why we come to have the amendment to section 27 in clause 6 of the bill and the consequential amendments in Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe situation could be summarised in this way. After the new Act came into force there was some doubt about whether, in relation to the circumstances outlined in section 27, the common law had been preserved. As both Mr Tanczos and I explained in our second reading speeches, there is an argument that it has been; however, to put the matter beyond doubt, legislation was considered to be the desirable option. That is why we moved very quickly to have the Evidence Amendment Bill introduced and referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee, and then, this afternoon, we have dealt with its remaining stages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EOne point I want to close on, though, is the conclusion to the report of the Justice and Electoral Committee. The committee emphasised that the Evidence Act should be regarded as a codification of the law of evidence in New Zealand, that the amendment should not be seen as resiling from the purpose of the Act and, moreover, that section 202 of the Act sets out a very clear mechanism for mandatory review. Mr Mark raised a number of very good questions. If I can summarise the honourable member, he said that we have a section that deals with periodic review, and that there are some arguments as to why the legislation should have been introduced in the first place, so he asked whether we would have other amendments. I think that fairly summarises the points he made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIn dealing with the second of those points first\u2014why we have legislation dealing with the law of evidence\u2014I say we had a major exercise throughout 2005 and 2006 because evidence law, as it was, was unsatisfactory. It was contained in legislation like the Evidence Act 1908 and the Evidence Amendment Act (No 2) 1980, which had introduced some major changes, some of which never actually came into force because the Governor-General in Council did not sign the necessary documents. We also had an array of common law, judge-made law, on evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe Law Commission wanted to bring it all together, and that is what has been done through the Evidence Act 2006. That is why Mr Tanczos and I, for example, expressed concerns about references in legislation to the common law bringing back, as I said in the Committee stage, somewhat uncertain references to the law, because the common law is never static but is always developing. But as far as possible, and consistent with the purpose of the legislation, every endeavour was made to bring all relevant rules relating to the law of evidence into one statute. A primary purpose of that was, as set out in section 6(f) of the Act, to enhance access to the law of evidence. The law of evidence is one of those things that affects anyone who is caught up in the civil or criminal justice system. Sometimes people represent themselves\u2014they may not have access to lawyers\u2014so it is to the advantage of everyone that the law of evidence is clear and accessible. I hope that answers the first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe next question relates to periodic review. Section 202, which was inserted by the committee, is a very important section. It is considered, given the importance of thend there will be a period, while the Evidence Act is in its infancy, when there will be a lot of cases on it\u2014that after a certain period there needs to be systematic review of the Act. This is a mechanism that has been inserted to provide for mandatory post-legislative review of the Act. At a particular time, hopefully no later than 1 December 2011, the Minister of Justice will ask the Law Commission to take a fresh look at the Act as it has developed since it came into force, taking into account all relevant cases, and then to decide what changes, if any, need to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EIt is the sincere hope of the select committee and of this Parliament that that mechanism will work so that there can be a principled and systematic review of the law of evidence. I certainly hope that is the case. I know that when the Law Commission was looking at the law of evidence, I was one of those who suggested that rather than our running back to Parliament every time an amendment needed to be made, perhaps the law of evidence could be enacted as a code, and a specialist committee could make changes to it. But, because of the nature of the law of evidence, which deals with major, substantive matters that can affect the liberty of the individual, it was considered that it was a subject that was properly the preserve of Parliament and not of a specialist committee, and that is why it was not enacted as a code. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EThe final point I would make is that I predict this amendment is probably not a one-off experience. Given the huge nature of the exercise of reforming the law of evidence comprehensively for the first time in a century, and given the changes that have been made, it could well be, while the legislation is in its infancy, that some other questions will arise. We may have to deal with other questions, because when we try to reduce everything into a code and express ourselves clearly in Englishsh, covering as many situations as we can, there may well be other circumstances that require clarification. I am afraid that is the name of the game. When I was speaking in the first reading, I said that after the High Court Rules were introduced in 1985, the Rules Committee needed immediately to have a number of meetings to make some urgent changes to them, because certain things had not been looked at. I am afraid that will possibly happen here, simply because of the nature of the exercise that we have undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EWe cannot cover every single contingency, but I think it is fair to say, in answer to Mr Mark\u2019s questions, that we have certainly tried to do so. I hope I do not sound defeatist, but it could well be that there will be a need to legislate in other areas. Given the mechanism for review that we have in section 202 of the Act, where a review is not to take place until 5 years hence, there may be a need for this Parliament to look at other matters. But having said that, I certainly hope that is not the case. We have done our best in the time available to cover the contingencies that the Minister has outlined, so as to prevent either satellite litigation on whether the common law exceptions have been maintained or our running the risk that a court finds they have not been maintained, thereby then imperilling a large number of highly complex and very costly cases. At least this legislation makes it clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the common law exceptions in this particular area have been maintained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003EFor that reason, National supports the third reading of the legislation. As I say, I hope we are not going to deal with other amendment bills in this area of the law. But who knows? We may do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00226a2c6de0699f441792ef3a6b8e5d312d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a2c6de0699f441792ef3a6b8e5d312d\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Allow me to begin with an apology. I doubt that I will be able to give a full 10-minute speech in the third reading debate without repeating myself on issues that have already been canvassed in previous stages of this debate. I know that members would not like to hear repetition, so I will try to confine my remarks to fresh issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI think it is important that we take this debate seriously and do make as constructive a contribution as possible, because it is an important issue. The rules of evidence are enormously significant for the maintenance of justice, of good rules of law, of fair courts and fair process, of the safety of the community, and of the right to a fair trial. These are important issues, particularly because of the nature of this debate and the very constrained nature of the process\u2014the hasty procedure. Although I accept the need for that, we have to accept that this is an unfortunately speedy process. So in that regard I think it is incumbent on members to make as constructive and full a contribution as we are able, and I will do my best to fulfil the expectations of the House\u2014and of you, Mr Assistant Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220251acdd74204c9ba4910ca40f526680\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Our expectations of the member are high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279a785ca57fd4ed297d46c8a3a30f47f\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELet me begin with a comment on a broader principle. As someone who is very interested in the deficiencies of an adversarial court system, and in exploring alternative processes for dealing with legal issues, and particularly in exploring further ideas around the applicability of the inquisitorial system to our own\u2014and acknowledging that elements of the inquisitorial system already apply in some legal processes in this country\u2014I am nevertheless someone who has a high regard for the elegance, if you like, of the common law system. It is unique, I think, to the adversarial system\u2014this idea that there is this judge-made law, with flexibility, that evolves over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe have developed, throughout the common law system, a rich intellectual tradition around questions of law, and I think that is a good thing. Also within New Zealand there is the question of how much uniquely New Zealand common law we have developed. I know that that is a matter that has exercised better minds than my own, and some very interesting contributions to that discussion have been published in recent times. I think it is important that we have a system that allows judges to consider not just statute law but broader principles of law, constitutional considerations, and the development of judicial thinking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI know that this Parliament has debated the question of the relationship between judges and Parliament at times, and different members have different views. I know that Dr Cullen has made particularly strong statements around the sovereignty of Parliament. He has stated his position quite clearly\u2014a position shared by some members of this House and not by others. I have to say that I am someone who tends to see myself on the other side of that debate. The question has been raised, of course, about what the mandate is for judges to make judge-made law. Judges do not have the democratic mandate that members of Parliament enjoy. Nevertheless, I think that judges enjoy a different kind of mandate, which is to do with the rule of law. It is to do with the protection of rights and with broader historical constitutional issues, which can quite easily be neglected in the debates of this Parliament, given that we represent moments of history, moments of the collective political consciousness of our nation at a particular time. So I do not think that that takes away from the important considerations that a broader historical view might give. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI remember well the debates between the Attorney-General and the Chief Justice. Nevertheless, of course, the problem with the common law is that it is relatively inaccessible, particularly to ordinary people. In fact, the very beauty of its fluidity and ability to evolve is one of the things that makes it so difficult for people to penetrate it and to understand its full scope. Although in the select committee and in this House we like to indulge ourselves and loyally debate some of these things, in my case I am able to do that only because of the support of advisers, researchers, and the like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EUnlike other members of this House who are accomplished lawyers in their own right and are well-known and highly regarded in the legal world, many of us here rely entirely on the enormously hard work of various support people in order to do our jobs. Of course, those resources are not available to most people. That is why it is important that we have in the Evidence Act the purpose of trying to make the law as accessible as possible so that ordinary people can understand the laws of evidence, understand that the laws comply with logical rules, and understand how those rules work. Then they can start to understand better how judicial decisions are made, because one of the problems we have in this country is that some people have a low regard for our judiciary. I do not think that that is deserved, by and large, but one of the difficulties is that people do not always understand the lines of reasoning that bring judges to make the decisions they make. So if we can make explicit the laws of evidence, and bring them into one place and make them clear, that is a very useful and important thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe reason those issues are important in terms of this debate we are undergoing right now is that this bill appears to run contrary to that purpose, and this is an issue that has been brought up previously. But I think it is important to stress that it is not the intention of Parliament to create further confusion, or anything like that, but, rather, to show that we are rectifying an important area of confusion in the law. If we have to do that in the context of the time by referring to the common law, then we have to do that, but we do want to see that it is tidied up at a later stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E Mr Finlayson is absolutely right when he says that this is unlikely to be the only time when we have to do this kind of thing. We did undergo a massive exercise with the enactment of the Evidence Act. It is a huge Act, complex and technical, so it is inevitable that in the course of time we will potentially see some oversights, or places where there is a lack of clarity about the intentions of Parliament. Again, as has been said, case law will be developing around the rules as they are set out in that Act. So in that regard it is important that we have a review process incorporated into the Act. As has been said, the first review is to commence on 1 December 2011, or at a later date set by the Minister of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E I think it would be unfortunate if that review was unnecessarily delayed. The Green Party certainly would encourage that review to be timely, because, I think, by 2011 it is very likely that we will have seen a number of the issues that will come from this. They will have come to our attention by that time, and we will need to go through that review process to look at where the case law has got to and to see what amendments or rectifications might need to be made at that time. So of course it is true that this will not be the only time we do this. We need to ensure that we do have this process to follow up and to tidy up the loose strands. That is the important element of that. Nevertheless, I think it is great to see the consensus and cooperation across the House on this important piece of legislation. I commend the Ministers and advisers for their good work, and I commend members for their very constructive contributions to this hasty debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002240db47193dac4f949b7bada10b09f1ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240db47193dac4f949b7bada10b09f1ba\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E First of all I say that as Chris Finlayson indicated, National supports this bill through its third reading. I also have to say that the Green Party having indicated to the House it would not take its full 10 minutes in the third reading debate, that was an impressive effort by Nandor Tanczos to get as close to the 10-minute mark as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI reiterate two important points that have been made during the course of the debate. The first is that National definitely sees this amendment bill as a clarification and as adding some certainty to the way in which this particular rule could be interpreted, whether it be enshrined in statute or with the continuation of a common law position. The important point that has been made is that even if the common law retained the defence, Parliament has an obligation to produce certainty in law, and we certainly would not want to have a situation where this was tested at length in the courts. I thank members who have done the work on this amendment bill, particularly as it was during such a rushed period in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003ESecondly, I want to emphasise that National was happy to play a constructive role in seeing this legislation move through all stages of the House. It is not something that we would ordinarily agree to, particularly because of the nature of the scrutiny that our democracy allows those parties not on the Treasury benches to pore over legislation that is put before the House. I think on the whole that robust process works pretty well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI know that the Attorney-General is anxious for me to conclude my remarks, so I will just say that although the way this bill is passing is extraordinary, with the introduction of the Evidence Act at the start of August it is essential. National supports the third reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a38e639d55a43368a3aaa815444ab9a\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224169a52e16764aa296d24388966fbeab\u0022\u003EDischarge of sessional order\u2014Television coverage of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00228c2dd6091fea46c8b64f3ade05ed4497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c2dd6091fea46c8b64f3ade05ed4497\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sessional order on television coverage of the House be discharged and that it be referred to the Standing Orders Committee for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022987e0b63baac41d6b7080059c1985d54\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u2014Sessional\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a124c2594a284138b97a5ea04c425dd1\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u2014Sessional\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4e482e3a06c43528390b93dea17dc43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4e482e3a06c43528390b93dea17dc43\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(1)\tA provider of television coverage of the House must comply with the following rules:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ETelevision coverage rules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E1.\tThe cameras will cover the member who has been called to speak until the member\u2019s speech is finished or the member\u2019s call is terminated by the Speaker. Coverage will normally be medium range, head and shoulders. The director may choose to vary the camera angle to add interest to the coverage. Switching between such shots should be done at an appropriate point in the speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E2.\tThe default shot will be on the Speaker or presiding officer, including the arrival of the Speaker\u2019s procession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E3.\tThe television director may choose other shots to reflect the business transacted, such as a wide angle shot of the chamber or, during oral questions, a reaction shot of the Minister being asked a question or of a member listening to the reply to a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E4.\tThe television director may use a wide angle shot of the chamber as a continuity shot, for instance, at the end of oral questions or when the House is going into committee. Sound from the Speaker or ambient noise microphones can be added to this shot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E5.\tGenerally, interjections are not covered. But if the member speaking engages with the interjector, the interjector\u2019s reaction can be filmed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E6.\tOfficials (Clerks, interpreters, Serjeant-at-Arms) should be shown when they are participating in the business of the House by making announcements, calling party votes, interpreting speeches, or carrying the mace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E7.\tWhile a personal vote is in progress a graphic to this effect should be shown in place of live coverage. This graphic would be shown from the time the Speaker directs the Ayes to the right, the Noes to the left and appoints the tellers, until the announcement of the result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E8.\tShots unrelated to the proceedings are not permitted, that is, interruptions from the gallery and business occurring outside the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E9.\tIn case of general disorder on the floor of the House, coverage will revert to the Speaker or presiding officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E10.\tDuring an interruption to proceedings such as prolonged disturbance from the gallery, the coverage will be of the Speaker or presiding officer, with sound from only the Speaker\u2019s and ambient noise microphones. Coverage from the chamber should continue, unless the Speaker or presiding officer indicates otherwise, either by suspending or adjourning the House, or specifically directing that coverage should cease. Television coverage recommences when the House resumes or at the direction of the Speaker or presiding officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E11.\tCoverage ceases as soon as the Speaker or presiding officer announces that the House stands adjourned or the Speaker or presiding officer leaves the chair for the suspension of a sitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThese rules apply also to any other filming from the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe Serjeant-at-Arms will intervene if it becomes apparent that cameras are filming matters not within the rules. Broadcasters who offend the rules may have their privilege of filming in the Chamber withdrawn;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(2)\tAny use of the television coverage of the House in any medium, must comply with the following conditions:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EConditions of use of coverage\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ELive coverage of the proceedings of the House of Representatives is made available for television broadcast, webcast, and recording in other mediums to provide greater public access to the legislature. The coverage is made available on the following conditions:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E1.\tAny broadcast or rebroadcast of coverage must comply with the Broadcasting Standards Authority rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E2.\tCoverage of proceedings must not be used in any medium for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u2022\tpolitical advertising or election campaigning (except with the permission of all members shown)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u2022\tsatire, ridicule or denigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u2022\tcommercial sponsorship or commercial advertising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E3.\tReports that use extracts of coverage of proceedings and purport to be summaries must be fair and accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBreach of these conditions may result in a loss of access to coverage, and may be treated as a contempt and proceeded against accordingly; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E(3)\tThe House may treat as a contempt the use of television coverage of the House, in any medium, contrary to paragraph (2) of this order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis motion gives effect to unanimous recommendations of the Standing Orders Committee that flow from the 2003 decision to provide for an in-house facility for televising Parliament. It creates a sessional order, and it is important for Parliament to understand what that means. In other words it sets up a set of rules that will last for the life of this Parliament only. It can be revisited during the life of this Parliament in the light of experience and will need to be re-moved either in this form or in some different form during the subsequent Parliament to cover the rules of televising Parliament. Essentially, as I said, it has been triggered by the fact that we now have a new process of permanent televising of Parliament being brought into place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBefore turning to the substance of the rules, I would like to comment briefly on the process of developing these rules. The Standing Orders Committee is one of the few committees on which all parties are represented, in this case except for the Progressives. Unlike some committees, the Standing Orders Committee always seeks to reach a consensus before making recommendations to the House. I cannot remember a recommendation being carried through simply on the basis of a majority vote in the Standing Orders Committee. That is particularly important because the rules of the House need to have broad agreement from all members represented in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI thank the other members of the committee for the constructive way that we all approached the process of developing what were always going to be, to some extent, controversial rules\u2014more controversial outside this place than inside it, I think it is fair to say. I particularly acknowledge the role of the shadow Leader of the House, Gerry Brownlee, in attempting to reach some enduring rules, because we do not want to make these processes ones of partisan dispute. I should note that in the committee the proceedings that have been proposed here received unanimous support in terms of the recommendations, and all parties were present during the deliberations on this particular matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI turn now to the substance of the proposed rules. It must be acknowledged that these represent a substantial liberalisation of the current rules. The current rules are very restrictive, and do not allow the presentation of anything like a full experience of Parliament for viewers. The proposed rules are significantly liberalised in terms of allowing reaction shots involving questions and objections, and permitting more general background shots so as to illustrate the mood of the House and introduce some greater variety into the coverage of the House. The current rules do not permit reaction shots or coverage of interjectors or, indeed, wide-angle shots of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis liberalisation of the rules around what can be televised, coupled with the provision of a free broadcast-quality live feed of all proceedings of Parliament, will allow the media much greater ability to cover the proceedings of Parliament than at present. It will also ensure that New Zealanders have greater opportunities to observe the performance of their elected representatives in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E The major controversy that has arisen from commentary by the press gallery is in relation to the rules that have been adapted from Australian experiences in relation to satire, ridicule, denigration, and other matters. The point the media has missed in this regard is that the most restrictive of those rules actually is one on members themselves and their political parties, and that is that coverage of proceedings may not be used in any medium for political advertising or election campaigning except with the permission of all members shown. That, of course, is an actual restraint on the ability of Parliament to use what may be misrepresentative pictures to misrepresent the experience of other members in the House. I am reminded of those United States advertising campaigns where a congressman is first of all criticised for not being in his constituency but instead being in Washington, and then is subsequently criticised for being in the constituency instead of being in Washington to vote on various important measures in front of Congress. It is very easy to misrepresent what happens within this Parliament through partial editing or through misrepresentation of those proceedings, and I believe that Parliament does deserve some degree of protection from that behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe matters around satire, ridicule, and denigration I think will need to be watched carefully and interpreted carefully, and not interpreted in a foolish or unnecessarily restrictive fashion. But I think one can sum up the seriousness of much of the objections by what happened on Wednesday morning in the Dominion Post. The media got me up against a wall\u2014not an unusual experience\u2014essentially parading their defence of Western democracy, liberties, the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, the Magna Carta, and goodness knows what else in terms of the need to be able to show satirical representations of Parliament. At a time when journalists from major news organisations are held captive by Palestinian terrorists, and some journalists are losing their lives in the pursuit of the truth and news around the world, I am not convinced that one should take entirely seriously some of these protestations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWhen we saw the evidence that what people really wanted to show was simply pictures of members of Parliament yawning, it seemed to me that we are actually dealing with trivial matters, not serious matters, at all. The fact that members of Parliament occasionally yawn in a House that sits until 10 p.m. at night does not seem to me worthy of a great deal of media coverage, at all. I have heard rumours that even members of the press gallery have been known to yawn in a variety of forms. I think that all that the public will discover from the fact that we yawn is that we are vaguely human, which probably will help us rather than hinder us in terms of their perception of members of this place. I might say that when I first came here loud yawning was one of the more frequent forms of interjection, one that has now fallen into disuse, by and large, thank goodness, within the House. I do not encourage its resumption as a major form of interjection within the House, particularly if it is in order to gather some kind of attention in the next morning\u2019s Dominion Post. If pictures of members yawning is all we are really talking about, then I really think we are talking about matters that are trivial, and that demean not Parliament but the journalists who think such matters are important matters to be covered within Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I do believe that these rules will need to be carefully interpreted and carefully monitored. They introduce a provision where some matters could be considered a contempt. That is to say they may be considered a contempt; they are not of themselves necessarily a contempt. I am quite sure that if charges were ever brought, the Privileges Committee would want to consider such matters very carefully before arriving at the conclusion that a contempt had been committed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBut I think that when we see pictures that, for example, show members reacting to something that in fact was not what they were reacting to\u2014in other words, when editing has occurred\u2014or when members are shown laughing at something they did not laugh about but were laughing at something completely different in the House, when members are captured in what one might call a human moment, which anybody experiences when they are working long hours in a place such as this, then the public gets a false impression of what is happening. That is not a true impression of Parliament; it is a false impression of Parliament. I was asked whether it would be possible for people to cover members being satirical about each other. I can assure members of the press gallery that they are perfectly able to cover any satirical speech within the House. That will not be a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ELet us see how these rules work. Let us take a deep breath. Let us interpret the rules liberally, and let us then proceed on from there. I have extraordinary confidence that democracy will continue to flourish in New Zealand, that there will continue to be robust debate within this Parliament, and that no member of the media outside will feel constrained in the kinds of comments he or she can make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOn that point, I just remind the House of one thing that most of the people here have probably forgotten. There was an occasion in this House\u2014as I recollect, it was at the end of the 1983 session\u2014when the incumbent Prime Minister was so drunk that when he stood to move the adjournment motion he stood for slightly over 2 minutes, unable to utter any words other than \u201CMr Speaker\u201D. Not a single member of the press gallery reported what happened in that case. I rest my case in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220d01c5471b7948c595937d72e06c5458\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d01c5471b7948c595937d72e06c5458\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will support these rules being enacted as a sessional order in the Parliament this afternoon. One of the things that has perplexed us over the last couple of days is that when members sat on the Standing Orders Committee and made the decision to go ahead with the cameras here in the Parliament, it was largely with the thought that we were opening the place up, and that there would be more coverage, more access, and more opportunities for the public to see what goes on in Parliament, which has such a big effect on their lives. So it has been slightly perplexing that, as the week has unfolded, we appear to have narrowed down on two relatively simple matters, as far as I can see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe first is the issue of whether still cameras should have the same flexibility as television cameras. I hasten to point out that the television cameras do not actually have all that much flexibility. The only advantage they have is that because there are multiples of them, a statement and a reaction can be seen from various sides of the House. I do not discount, though, that at some point in the very near future we will need to have a further discussion about the role and the access of still cameras. After all, if we want to have the place more open, then I do not think that should be too much of an issue for us to deal with. I certainly indicate that the National Party is saying\u2014and I believe the Speaker has said this to the gallery and to other interested parties\u2014that we can have more discussion on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe reality is that a sessional order lasts from the time it is passed today until the end of this Parliament. So there will be discussion in the Standing Orders Committee about what arrangements will endure from the start of the post - 2008 - election Parliament. In that, I think there might be\u2014in fact, I would say there will be\u2014some opportunity to overcome and get past some of the concerns that the media have. I want to state very firmly that in supporting these sessional orders, as I believe would be the case for everyone else here, there is no attempt to restrict the media in any undue way whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to speak about the issue of the ban, supposedly, on satire, ridicule, and denigration. It is an interesting prospect that serious gallery reporters say they want the absolute right to satirise, ridicule, and denigrate the proceedings of Parliament. I do not think that that upholds their entire argument about wanting to have greater access to a more open democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESatire will always have a place in the political arena; it does just about every day in the cartoons, and it does in the weekly wrap-ups that we see in our news media, particularly on television. To some extent, if the right journalist is doing it, it can be exercised on radio, and it is frequently the case in the Dominion Post that a particular reporter writes her almost daily column or commentary the day after the House has had proceedings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ERidicule is an issue that the public should decide on. I would have thought that reporters would report the facts of any particular case or incident and the public would make their decision about how that was to be treated, and if ridicule was the result, then so be it. But to have the right to actively ridicule, at large, people who are elected here is not right. Denigration is much the same. It is interesting to note that the appendices that are attached are quite specific in saying that these matters all relate to what are already broadcasting standards rules. If they are read in that regard, I do not think there is a total ban on satire. I would find it exceptional if the Broadcasting Standards Authority were to uphold a complaint of satire in many of the cases that we could all outline where one or two of us may have felt somewhat aggrieved because we were the centre of attention on any particular day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt is also worth noting that any censure or other condemnation that might come from breaching these rules arises as a result of the Privileges Committee making a decision. The step prior to that is that the Speaker determines whether a matter of privilege is involved, and the step prior to that is that the member or members who feel aggrieved take the step of writing to the Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to give an absolute assurance that if I am caught sleeping in Parliament and my photo appears in the paper, on the television, or otherwise, I will not write to the Speaker complaining. I know that if I did, the Speaker would find it very hard to suggest that publishing that photo was a contempt of Parliament. The proof of that is that although it is annoying and irritating, in the last few days when various photos like that have been publicised, there has been no such action taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt is very hard and unreasonable at times, though, that those photos appear. I know that journalists, particularly in the gallery, work extremely long hours and extremely hard for the particular media outlets that they represent. But members of Parliament do also, and I think it only reasonable to accept that from time to time there will be contributions made in this House that will be so difficult to listen to that if bottled, they would be a fine remedy for the worst insomnia anyone could ever possibly suffer. As a consequence, people do occasionally have their eyes shut, but that should be no impediment to the thought process continuing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIn short, the National Party will support these rules, because we have to have some rules in place from 17 July. Media outlets, once the televising goes free to air, can take still photographs or a range of still photographs off that feed, and they are not going to miss out in the way they might currently be protesting about. The only difference will be that they will not have to send a photographer along here to wait the many hours that might be needed in order to get that particular gem in the lens. But if that is what they want to do, then we give our commitment to talk further about that with the Speaker. We support these television coverage rules today because we need them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis is, as I said before, a sessional order that will be in place until the 2008 election. As a sessional order, of course, it can be altered and changed at any particular point, so it is hardly a shutting off or a total denial of any particular rights. Beyond 2008 there will be Standing Orders that we hope will reflect the best interests of the people of this country, because ultimately that is what this should be all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI conclude by simply saying it was our intention, and I believe the intention of everybody who sat on that Standing Orders Committee, to open Parliament up to greater scrutiny and view, so we remain a little perplexed by some of the extraordinary reactions in the last couple of days. We accept that they are genuine, we will take them on board, and we will discuss them further. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c21198ce7e04dbdab35b45391c38a0f\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8b506c837a94364973c501cfc1cecb1\u0022\u003ETabled Documents\u2014Printing and Release\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002292d4172cc12541a3ba977b49b5c712f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292d4172cc12541a3ba977b49b5c712f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I raise with you, at the first available opportunity, something that has occurred overnight. It relates to documents that I had tabled here yesterday afternoon, following the general debate in the House. I am reading from an article that states: \u201CMr Peters tabled legal submissions on the BNZ deal, but these were not released to the Herald because they are considered legally sensitive by the Clerk of the House, David McGee.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis is the second time, I think, in this Parliament\u2019s history that an attempt has been made not to print documents that have been tabled in this House. We had all these arguments the last time, you will recall, when I tabled the wine-box documents in the House and the very same parties sought to preclude the printing of them by the Office of the Clerk and the release of them to the media, for the very same reasons that they have no doubt put up now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E This is a deadly serious matter, and I have raised it at the first opportunity. The public has been denied information that was submitted at a commission of inquiry, so it gets worse in that context. I do not know what has gone on behind closed doors, or who has made submissions to the Clerk\u2019s Office, but I would be astonished if those submissions were made on any basis other than that which was raised last time in respect of a much wider set of documents that at that time had not been published anywhere, at all. The matters I put to Parliament yesterday were all matters that have been published in one form or another\u2014and, in the case of the newspaper article, obviously published. But in the case of the submissions, I point out that they were made before a commission of inquiry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis matter is so urgent, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I demand the Speaker of the House come back here, so that the Clerk of the House, through her, can tell us what is going on. It is simply not something we can abide, and I think it is a denial of public access to knowledge. I do not believe there is any constitutional, meritorious, or legal reason for this to have happened that was not traversed or overcome the last time such challenges were made. That may have been the first time in my memory that any parties outside this House, having seen documents tabled, sought to use the Clerk\u2019s Office to stop wider publication beyond this House. It is an outrage that the commission could know what is in those submissions, that those who are party to the submissions could know what is in them, and that parliamentarians may know what is in them, yet the public and the media cannot. I think that calls for the Speaker\u2019s return to the House, and I seek leave for that to happen now, to tell us why on earth that decision has been made. I so move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f8f47c0efdd4949bde24d5d5604be4c\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising that issue. You have correctly raised it at the first available opportunity. I shall seek a way forward for you, not necessarily as you require, but I shall seek a way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00221ef38a9e364c4b3ca56148935db97d1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ef38a9e364c4b3ca56148935db97d1f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your clarification as to how soon you expect me to have an answer. If it will be the case that we will not have any chance to dispute this matter over the next 2 weeks of the adjournment, then I think that is a grave travesty of the simple rules and protocols of this Parliament and, indeed, of Western democracy itself. I think, therefore, that this matter requires the urgent consideration of this House now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3c77defabe64bed9ffe6040a16e70ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3c77defabe64bed9ffe6040a16e70ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I will make two points. The first is that as the House is not in Committee, one cannot actually move to recall the Speaker, because the Speaker is in the Chair. It is a different procedure from when we are in Committee, and, indeed, I do not think Madam Speaker will be available later on today, if I can put it in that way. Secondly, I think the member has raised a very important matter that I think the Clerk\u2019s Office needs to take a little time to think through before you respond, Mr Deputy Speaker. I wonder, perhaps, whether we could resume the debate on the motion, with an understanding that you will come back to the House, before it rises at 6 o\u2019clock, to give a considered response to the member. This is a very important matter, and it is one that probably should not have an immediate response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225f58773182aa43c9b57d5cc885a1a8d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f58773182aa43c9b57d5cc885a1a8d7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I agree that this is a very important matter. I refer whoever is looking into it to Speakers\u2019 ruling 134/1, in order to see whether, perhaps, there is a way through it that would result in a further request for leave relating to publication. In essence, the ruling states: \u201C\u2026 the mere tabling of a document in the House does not mean that the House has ordered or authorised the publication of that document. Where the House does order or authorise the publication of a document, the House makes the document its own, and any subsequent publication of it is absolutely privileged \u2026 Where, as in this case\u201D\u2014and I am not sure which case it was\u2014\u201Cthe document is merely tabled, no legal protection in respect of any subsequent publication outside the House arises by virtue of that tabling.\u201D It could be that there is quite a significant issue here for the member who wants to table the documents. It may be worth considering whether a leave application around their publication is a way through that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e82488fc634947e1b561f06590a084f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e82488fc634947e1b561f06590a084f5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his comments. This situation is extraordinary, on two counts. The first thing is that I would have thought a courtesy was owed to the member of this Parliament who had tabled the document if such a ruling or finding were being pursued by the Clerk of the House. That is number one\u2014a simple courtesy to that member would surely have been required, in any sense of fair play. The second thing is that members here table document after document every darned day, all of which are printed. But all of a sudden someone comes along with documents\u2014in this case, the subject of a commission of inquiry hearing\u2014and they have some sort of legal sanctity against publication, on the pretence that they do not carry any legal protection. Well, that is, with the greatest of respect to the Clerk, David McGee, absolute bunkum. Members will recall that I went through those arguments last time, and I will not face 2\u00BD weeks of not having an answer now. That is the least I could expect from my colleagues, many of whom have already heard these arguments when legal efforts were last made by certain parties outside this Parliament to stop publication. I seek leave for the documents tabled yesterday in my name to be printed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a649d5462d47a98860bd1fae215230\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed, and you are quite entitled to do that, of course. I just mention that documents are tabled for the purpose of informing the House; they are not automatically published. But you have sought leave for that to happen. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fce7b9ce1dc34e43a366dfed36fd21f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fce7b9ce1dc34e43a366dfed36fd21f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I think the leave is simply for the documents to be published, not printed, because of the nature of the documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283e15d81f6bb4983aa622adb0779bb52\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, leave has been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4b1e3efe1c44eba90ace48e704d3d8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4b1e3efe1c44eba90ace48e704d3d8f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Just to get it correct, I am seeking leave for the documents to be printed, published, and distributed to all who request them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6ebc11d60ad4aad8ba71930d44be7fc\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the subject of the leave that is being sought. Is there any objection to that? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d290f016245433789fc2619cba758c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to apologise to the House for the interruption. I do thank my colleagues for seeing the wisdom of that procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc7f31931934d09876182613af15ee1\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is all right. When I mentioned a way forward, that is exactly what I was about to seek, and we have found a way forward, as you can see. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8dc64ef798646c69ca75222d25ad946\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u2014Sessional\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6d96bc6e6dc46f2999a69e3c6a9a0e9\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u2014Sessional\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000395\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022be6c37366b424a46a4f3e00e07148c11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be6c37366b424a46a4f3e00e07148c11\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Tony Blair is on record as saying that Parliament is a place for noble causes, and that is what this place should be. That is why New Zealand First will support this sessional order and the television coverage rules as provided in this motion. We can see no good reason why MPs should be satirised whilst doing their job in this House. We certainly can see no good reason why MPs should be ridiculed whilst doing their job in this House. Equally so, we can see no good reason why they should be denigrated whilst doing their job in this House. We agree with Dr Cullen that the situation should be monitored, and monitored carefully, and probably reviewed if flaws are found or the system does not appear to be working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe have little or no sympathy for the media and the media\u2019s case because, principally, some in the media\u2014I will not say all, but some in the media\u2014when it comes to relaying the activities of Parliament, operate under questionable ethics. I use the example that has been hinted at this afternoon. My former colleague Dail Jones was laughing at a joke or something that happened here in the House, and he was shown on television with the musical theme \u201CWe\u2019re in the Money\u201D underlying it all. That was totally and utterly unfair and, dare I say, outrageous. Equally so, a few weeks back my colleague Ron Mark questioned the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections, I think, and the debate got quite heated. But when the television showed it, they showed the heated response from the department and then Ron Mark\u2019s questions, giving a totally wrong impression of what happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI do not need to remind the House that some time ago my colleague Ron Mark was baited by the Hon Tau Henare\u2014\u201Cbaited\u201D is the only word I can use. The statement the Hon Tau Henare made was a gross distortion of the truth, and Ron responded. He did not respond in the manner that is appropriate to an MP, I must say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022247a2ccff151490dbbf2a1ee7de194da\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Yes he did, for dissing him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f27978bc20a540fab7e38bde47c411b0\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am getting a debate from behind the scenes here. Mr Mark has apologised to this House, I think on at least three occasions. He was sitting behind me, and I was acting party leader at the time. He has apologised personally to me. He has apologised to the Rt Hon Winston Peters, our leader, who was absent at the time. He has apologised to the caucus. He has apologised to the party members I do not know how many times, several in writing, and to many a local New Zealand First meeting. I do not know what else he has to do. That was a year or so ago, and yet he still appears on television with that gesture, advertising a programme. That is absolutely outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf we are to televise Parliament, then we must have some rules in place. We must have some rules that reflect what we are meant to be doing here. I saw the Dominion Post the other day, with photographs of MPs yawning. If that is the response of the media to these sorts of rules, they invite MPs to make tough rules. But having said that, I would suggest to anybody who feels a bit tired and wants to yawn to do what my mother told me to do when I was a young boy: put one\u2019s hand over one\u2019s mouth. Then it looks as if one cares about other people. Nevertheless, this place is not here so that MPs can be made fools or idiots of. I think most of us will agree that we can do that pretty well on our own, without being filmed or televised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E I recall when I went to London to a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference that we met three senior MPs\u2014senior in terms of time spent in the House of Parliament\u2014and we were talking about the televising of Parliament. The UK has been televising the Westminster Parliament for quite some years. Those MPs\u2019 advice to all of us at the conference was to avoid it if we could, because, they said, in essence the media cannot be trusted. They said that the media will use the televising of Parliament to undermine the very institution, they will use it to undermine the Church, and they will use it to undermine the Sovereign\u2014the Queen. That last probably is not as important to us as perhaps it is to the UK, but, nevertheless, those senior MPs in the UK Parliament were of the opinion that the media did very little to promote the issues as they were being discussed in Parliament; instead, they made fools of the people who came to Parliament to do their best for the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have no doubt that just about everybody in this House comes here for a genuine cause. They come here with the feeling that their political view can make a better country. We all, from time to time, disagree\u2014sometimes very, very strongly. But the commitment to do our best, I think, goes through everybody\u2019s attitude. I have had some fairly strong arguments with colleagues from all sides of the House, but I would not for one minute suggest that they were not taking their issues, seeing them, and promoting them in the way they were doing without the best intentions to achieve the best outcome for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ETo be made a fool of by the media is really the pits. I can recall, in my own case, going on television outside this House on a documentary programme\u2014one might say that I was set up for it\u2014to talk about the censorship of movies. The interviewer said to me: \u201CHave you seen the movie?\u201D. Well, the truth is I had not seen the movie, but I had read extensively the censor\u2019s report. The censor has to write a detailed report of every movie that goes through his office. The report on this particular movie was sickening, so my answer to the interviewer was: \u201CNo, I haven\u2019t seen the movie, but I\u2019ve read the censor\u2019s report and it was absolutely sickening. He goes into details.\u201D I said, pretty much, exactly that. What came out over the air was: \u201CHave you seen the movie?\u201D; \u201CNo, I haven\u2019t seen the movie.\u201D And then they moved on to another clip. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI have to say that my leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, had a word with me the very next day. He said that one cannot go on television and criticise a movie if one has not seen it. I explained: \u201CWell, here\u2019s the censor\u2019s report. Read that and see if you want to see the movie, and see whether you think it should be censored.\u201D Indeed, my brother-in-law, who lives down the road from me, came and knocked on my door and said he had seen me on television, and again I explained. I had the censor\u2019s report and let him read it. He shared my concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe point I am making is that television has the ability to clip, cut, and change things to suit the audience. What it should be doing is reflecting accurately what goes on in this place. Until we can get a cast-iron assurance that that is what will happen, then we have to have rules in place that protect the people doing this job. I cannot think of terribly many other jobs\u2014there might be some\u2014that will be open to public glare and are put on TV at night to have people ridicule. When I worked on the waterfront and we invited a team of dignitaries down, we had the courtesy to tell our men that people unrelated to their loading operation or discharge operation would be coming to view the operation. We did not expect anybody to later go out and castigate the guys who were working hard in the holds of the ship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf the media think they can come into this place with their TV cameras and show the world whatever they think the world should see, with little thought of accuracy, then I have to say they are barking up the wrong tree. New Zealand First supports this sessional order. We support the assertion that Dr Cullen made: it should be monitored and reviewed, and possibly changed from time to time. Meanwhile we think these controls are a good place to start. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1ef8438428d44718d95b69241208477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1ef8438428d44718d95b69241208477\u0022\u003ETARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader\u2014M\u0101ori Party):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Deputy Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. The popular question that tamariki ask me, when I spend time in a kura, is, what I really do each day. I suppose I could focus on some of the negative aspects of the House, but I do not, because that is not what the majority of the day is about. The list of work is enormous, as any member of this House knows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI talk about the role of Parliament as the supreme legislative power, and, as a consequence, our mahi in passing the laws by which Aotearoa is governed; examining, amending, processing bills; and approving the supply of public funds to run the country. I share the experiences that we have in promoting representation and the mutual obligations that we have both to advocate the views of the people and to represent the work of Parliament back to the constituency. I talk also about the very important role of scrutinising the work of the Government and the ever-thrilling challenge of question time. But I do not talk about the exhaustion that comes with the workload that extends into late evenings and weekends, the responsibility of keeping up with mountains of paperwork, and all the other core business that comes with the two letters\u2014MP. I totally accept that all of this is part of the role of a member of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EBut if people were to pick up the Dominion Post yesterday, they would be hard-pressed to see any other role for Parliament than one of pure entertainment, a forum of fun and frivolity\u2014all yawning aside\u2014and a place, unfortunately, to fall asleep in, if one is really tired. The fact that my colleague Dr Pita Sharples was, last Thursday, denied the opportunity to table his signed code of ethics, as he attempted to have it added to those of the other 13 members of the MMP parties who had tabled theirs, was not seen as news. I suppose good behaviour does not sell newspapers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThat is why we in the M\u0101ori Party have supported the new television coverage rules in our commitment to restore the respect, authority, and legitimacy of Parliament. The M\u0101ori Party debated at great length the importance of focusing on the respective members who were on their feet, and on ensuring shots unrelated to the proceedings were not permitted. We were pleased to see that the authority of the Speaker is preserved, with the default position always reverting either to the Speaker or to the presiding officer in the Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThere is one particular part of the new rules that has excited the imagination of the fourth estate\u2014that is, the direction that coverage of proceedings must not be used in any medium for ridicule or denigration. The M\u0101ori Party is particularly supportive of such a ruling, in light of the report from the United Nations special rapporteur who highlighted \u201Cthe systematic negative description of M\u0101ori in media coverage\u201D. As a particularly vivid example, we need only to cast our memory back to 1975, when television cameras gave extensive coverage to a billboard campaign by property investor Bob Jones attacking the Rowling Labour Government. The billboard that achieved national prominence, however, was one about the Minister of Maori Affairs, Matiu Rata, which said: \u201CMatt Rata reads comics\u201D. That a man of such mana, a leader of his people, was put up as a figure of fun and tormented by the popular press of his day, reflects badly on all those involved in such a shameful incident. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThese incidents of so-called ridicule or denigration could also be described as institutional racism. \u201CNigger\u201D jokes were seen as normal, fun, and funny\u2014excused, I suppose, by that childhood chant: \u201CSticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me\u201D. Well, really, is that so right? It is little wonder that Mohammad Ali in 1966, in refusing to fight for the United States in Viet Nam, said: \u201CI ain\u2019t got no quarrel with the Vietcong \u2026 no Vietcong ever called me a nigger.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EThose are the sorts of episodes that a study on M\u0101ori in the media undertaken in 2004 reported as being unbalanced in their treatment of M\u0101ori\u2014denigrating, and insulting. When I picked up the Dominion Post yesterday and found that four of the eight unflattering photos of MPs were of M\u0101ori MPs\u2014Shane Jones, Dover Samuels, Ron Mark, and myself\u2014I asked what has changed since 1975. I did not bother to complain, because I did not feel that it was worth it. But the United Nations special rapporteur was so concerned about the treatment of M\u0101ori in the media that he recommended that \u201CPublic media should be encouraged to provide a balanced, unbiased, and non-racist picture of M\u0101ori in New Zealand society,\u201D\u2014not a number of M\u0101ori MPs in a very unflattering way as they were yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIn light of this it was refreshing yesterday to see the Broadcasting Standards Authority come out with a statement supporting better training in inter-cultural understanding for journalists. The statement from the Broadcasting Standards Authority\u2019s chief executive, Dominic Sheehan, said it all: \u201CAll cultures have a right to be treated fairly by the media. Better journalistic training in other cultures would be a solution to inadvertently offending people\u2019s customs and protocols as a result of a lack of knowledge.\u201D The authority also supported the concept of media campaigns to combat discrimination, with Sheehan confirming that such a campaign reflects the important part the media plays in improving communication between cultures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EI am not generally one to say that I get excited by statements like that, but in the midst of an environment of bad news and unflattering photos, the leadership shown by the Broadcasting Standards Authority is exciting. I quote from Mr Sheehan again: \u201CWhile our media is underpinned by the right of free expression, we want people from all communities to know that broadcasters have a responsibility to maintain programme standards like the observance of good taste and decency, balance, fairness, accuracy and the privacy of an individual. Included in the standards are safeguards against denigration and discrimination against a group in society.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003EIf I were in a courtroom, I would tempted to say: \u201CYour honour, I rest my case.\u201D, but instead, in this esteemed \u201CHouse of Law\u201D, I say that nothing more really needs to be said. In the interests of broadcasting standards in respect of our Standing Orders, and in compliance with the MMP parties\u2019 own code of conduct for MPs tabled in this House, I say that the direction to avoid ridicule or denigration is the right direction for this House to take. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u002227323f136a2945a686d19ce90c2bdd6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227323f136a2945a686d19ce90c2bdd6f\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the motion be amended by omitting the words \u201Csatire, ridicule or denigration\u201D. I intend to seek leave of the House, at the conclusion of my speech, to allow full debate on the motion, my amendment, and any other amendments that may arise, to ensure that the debate is not constrained in any way, because I think it is an important debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELet me explain why I am moving my amendment to the motion. I will start by talking about the context of the motion. First of all, by and large it is a positive change. I think the points that Mr Brownlee made are quite correct, in that this motion represents an opening up of Parliament in a number of ways. It is unfortunate that this debate has overshadowed that broader opening-up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe first thing is that we are seeing access to a live feed through these cameras, a feed that will be free, and a feed that will mean that all of the proceedings of this Parliament are broadcast through the Internet and through any media channel that chooses to use it. There is an intention that select committee proceedings will also be, ultimately, televised, or at least the public parts of them. That is something we must all applaud, and I think it is important to remember that what is driving the move as a whole is an attempt to open up Parliament and make it more accessible to the people of New Zealand. That is extremely important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIn the context of that, the motion includes a relaxation of the rules regarding television coverage. Rather than coverage being restricted to the member who has the call, the new rules will allow reaction shots and some broad shots of the House to be used. That is an improvement; that is an opening-up of what can be shown. I think it is important that we acknowledge those positive elements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI also want to thank Dr Cullen for explaining quite clearly the import of this matter being a sessional order, and what that means in terms of the procedures of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5d6fe7b51b4792a5a0ba388e7c44cf\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Tanczos, I do not want to interrupt you, but there is a slight dilemma here. You indicated that you would be seeking leave to broaden the debate for subsequent speakers, but you are now going very broad indeed\u2014strictly speaking, outside of your amendment. I do not mind, but I just mention that so that you do not think it has slipped past me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b94a699367f4965acbf12b5e44d22c5\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Would it be appropriate to seek leave at this time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca6bbc55efd41cebdd3cf2a0429b56d\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e86ca3d6be41f98580dc8d559d6fb5\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for your guidance. I seek leave of the House for the debate to include discussion of the main question, my amendment, and any further amendments that members may see fit to move, and for the questions on the amendments and the main question to be part of the conclusion of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea12c506c19450bb7fb2e66cb9ef34c\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f8e4b5dfc741c3b82198564651d936\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for your guidance, and I also thank the members of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI thank Mr Cullen for explaining clearly the import of this matter being a sessional order, and the possibilities that the House will have at a later time to re-examine the matters in this report and in the sessional order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E As I was saying, by and large this matter is being driven by a desire for a positive move, which is the opening up of Parliament, but it is fair to say that since the publication of the report, major concerns have been raised in public, not only by media and media representatives but also by other people\u2014lest we think this matter is driven purely by media self-interest. I would characterise the concerns\u2014at least, as I have observed them\u2014as being centred on three key issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe first one is the process. I acknowledge the letter that Vernon Small wrote to the Speaker, indicating that although the media have been consulted on the broad changes, specific elements within them had not been made apparent to them. I think that is an issue, and I note that the Dominion Post reported today that the Speaker had acknowledged that and had apologised to Mr Small for it. I am simply going by media reports; obviously, I was not there myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe second issue is the rule that coverage must not be used for \u201Csatire, ridicule or denigration\u201D. That presents members with problems. The first thing is how we are to define what is denigration or ridicule, or even satire for that matter. I think we open ourselves up to the potential for a very restrictive regime. Although I accept Dr Cullen\u2019s assurance that this rule would be interpreted liberally in this Parliament, we always have to acknowledge that when we do these things, we do them for the future, and for Governments of a different nature from the sorts of Governments we currently enjoy. I certainly would not like to see members put in place rules that a more authoritative regime could use to suppress criticism of itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EAgain, as Mr Small has said, members should ask themselves whether programmes like Eating Media Lunch will not be able to use the proceedings of the House for satirical material. I think it would be inappropriate for members to try to stop them from doing that. Not only is such a rule unenforceable but also I think members would not want to stop satire. Political satire is an important part of the culture of New Zealand and of other countries. I certainly remember, when I was growing up, seeing David McPhail and Jon Gadsby on television. Political satire, and the ability to poke fun at, and prick the pomposity of, politicians had a significant impact on my political development. It was an extremely important element, and I think it would be unfortunate if members were seen to be trying to stop political satire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELike Mr Rodney Hide, my personal view is that people should be able to film what they like. If, as Dr Cullen said, the concern is about misrepresentation of the proceedings of the House, or if the concerns are those that Tariana Turia raised about racism and targeting, then it may be possible to find better phrasing that actually goes to the heart of what we are trying to avoid, rather than our having these fairly blanket statements. That is why I moved a motion to refer this matter back to the Standing Orders Committee. I think it would be quite useful to have another look at these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EDr Cullen referred to the photos in the Dominion Post as being a case in point; that if that is the objective of the exercise, well, members do not want to allow that. But I think that comment misses the point. It seems patently obvious to me that what the Dominion Post was doing was playing up and giving members a bit of a shot across the bow, because it does not normally engage in that kind of thing. It was quite a pointed protest. Although I think the choice of photos may have been unfortunate, as Tariana Turia has pointed out, it would be wrong of us to take that as an indication of what the media\u2019s concern is about this issue. The only time in the past that I remember the media showing a photo of members of Parliament yawning, it was a photo of Annabel Young. The media were slapped over the wrist for it, but the context was\u2014[Interruption] No, it was Annabel Young.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244f717d625a944e3861951223d5ba87d\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know, but David Benson-Pope was sleeping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a92b4cfaefc4af285b9afd49cf78e19\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: I offer my apologies to Mr Donnelly. The thing about the Annabel Young photo was that it taken when the House was sitting under extraordinary urgency to debate a tax law. Members were sitting until 4 or 5 in the morning, or something; we were certainly sitting into the early hours of the next morning. The photo was really portraying the kinds of hours that we were sitting, and I do not think that was an unreasonable thing for the media to do. I do not think the photo was intended to be derogatory at all; if anything, perhaps it was intended to be sympathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe other issue is the inconsistency around the use of stills photos. When we think about it, we realise it is difficult to see why there should be inconsistent rules for stills photography compared with the rules for television feeds. Again, the concern could be that photos can be taken out of context much more easily than film footage, because a photo of someone blinking can be portrayed as a photo of someone asleep. I have certainly been subjected to more than my fair share of photographic misrepresentation in my time\u2014not by the press gallery, I must say, but by media outside the House. But I think it must be possible for us to say that what we are concerned about is unfair misrepresentation, if that is what we are trying to get at. I cannot see that a very clear case can be argued to support a blanket rule that makes the rules for stills photography different from those for television feeds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESo huge concerns have been expressed since the publication of the proposed rules, and I think it is worth re-examining these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELastly, I would say that, yes, I was on the Standing Orders Committee, as Dr Cullen said. The committee does work by consensus, but I think the committee got it wrong in this instance. We all get it wrong sometimes. The Government has backtracked on policy, the National Party has backtracked on policy, and we have all made mistakes in our time. Getting it wrong is nothing to be ashamed of. What members should be ashamed of is if we refuse to rectify it. That is really the issue. Issues were raised in the select committee around these matters, in any case. The weight of opinion was against it; that is fair enough. But the public concern is a good reason for us to go back and review these rules. As Gerry Brownlee said of the Dominion Post, if the media have concerns they can talk to MPs, and Parliament will look into the matter. Well, let us do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022921714d19a7e4502ac4b4a6a52989974\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022921714d19a7e4502ac4b4a6a52989974\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to say at the outset that I am not persuaded that the Standing Orders Committee got it wrong in its consideration of these matters. It spent some considerable time doing so. It drew on comparable international experience, and it sought to develop a regime that would be more liberal than the one we have presently, particularly given the changes in television coverage. The rules around satire and denigration I will return to separately, but they, I think, have taken away much of the positive substance of these changes, and I think it would be foolish for this Parliament to now overreact by going back the other way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe were confident in the select committee that we had the rules crafted properly and that we had provided for better coverage and more flexibility, and I think we should let them have a run. These are sessional orders, and, as others speakers have said, they can be changed at some stage over the next year or so. But I think it would be foolish to change them before we have even started them, so for that reason I do not support the amendment that has just been moved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs this debate has unfolded over the last few days, it has struck me that the media and the Parliament have one point in common. We both crave credibility. Parliamentarians are acutely conscious that their standing in the public is somewhat lower than the lowest. I point out that the media often does not rate a great deal more highly. So although we see, as parliamentarians, a need to protect and respect this institution through the way in which it is presented, which might lead some people to view us as being overly cautious and concerned with our reputation and image\u2014no bad thing, I say\u2014the media, for its part, also wants to be viewed in an equally responsible and credible light. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThat common ground then becomes the point at which we start to separate. We as parliamentarians say\u2014and I go right back to 1936, when the Labour Government of the day first instituted the broadcasting of this Parliament\u2014that broadcasting, telecasting, or some other form of transmission of what goes on here is the best way of ensuring that the public of New Zealand gets a true and an accurate picture of what is happening. The media say that their critical role is to inform, to analyse, and, I guess, to enable the readers and the viewers to make critical decisions based on the judgments they are putting before them. That is all very well in theory, but the practice of the last few days, as this debate has unfolded, has been somewhat different from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI have spoken to a number of journalists, none of whom have expressed concern about their ability, as a result of these changes, to seriously report what goes on in this House. That is not an issue. The issue for them seems to be the restriction on their ability to satirise and to denigrate, and that, to me, says something about the core of the problem. This is not about whether Parliament can be properly presented to the people of New Zealand, and whether the voters who collectively decide our individual and ultimate fates can be better informed about what goes on here. That seems to have become a secondary issue to the view that the media has a right not just to inform but to satirise and to denigrate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think what has got out of balance here is the issue of what the fundamental responsibility is. I have no objection to satire and denigration. It is part of our stock-in-trade most of the time. But I think that to say that that becomes the primary purpose, which is the way that the debate seems to have unfolded in the last few days, somewhat, to be colloquial, puts the cart before the horse. I think it is important that Parliament puts a stake in the ground and says that we are about being open, and we are about being as transparent as possible\u2014hence these new rules for the telecasting of Parliament. We are not, contrary to much of the commentary, changing the rules at all with regard to still photography. They remain as they have been. But at the same time we are about enhancing the credibility of this place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think that to get hijacked, as we are in danger of doing by the side issue of how satire is portrayed and what the rights of the media are to satirise, is to miss the point. Satire will continue to occur. One simply does not need to take this feed. A tape can be taken off any broadcast anyway and used for those purposes. I see that the Minister of Health is here, and I hope he does not mind if I draw attention to his abilities in this regard. Some of the examples that have been portrayed this week of outlandish behaviour by members of Parliament that would not be permitted under these new rules, actually relate to the Minister and one of his colleagues dancing, not in Parliament but somewhere else altogether. So presumably those broadcasts could continue, and we could continue to see his skills\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b49ee1093944d199e067dc06fbd8563\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: No, we won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a79b3695654e4e389cbe1d62481477dd\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The whip says that we will not, and I think that is probably correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe point I am making is simply this. I think this debate has lost a lot of its perspective. This is about the rules for the telecasting of Parliament. Parliament is the highest court in the land. It is entirely proper that there are some boundaries around how its presentation occurs. The media will always continue to satirise and to lampoon\u2014that is a legitimate and strong historical tradition. But it is not a principle of democracy to start from the presumption that the first thing to be preserved is the right to satirise and to lampoon. That is a consequence; it is not a substantive principal argument. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to see these rules be given a run. They may not be perfect. We can always review and change them. We do that constantly as it is, anyway. I want to see New Zealanders have the chance to observe their Parliament in action in a full and an accurate way. When people talk about Parliament, they are amazed when I tell them that what they see on television at night is probably 10 percent of the worst 10 percent\u2014the excerpts from question time, the unruly behaviour, and so on\u2014and that 80 to 90 percent of what goes on here would occur, whichever party was in Government, without contention and debate, as members constructively get on about their work. People are stunned when they hear that, because that is not the impression they have been given by the way that this place is portrayed. I think we do ourselves and our country a disservice if we continue to be lulled into a sense of saying: \u201CWell, let\u2019s actually accept that the portrayal of this place is as it should be.\u201D Then we have debates about why we do not have civics courses in schools to educate young people about the political process and how Parliament works. Part of the reason why that call is as strong as it is, is that people feel disillusioned by what they see\u2014which gets back to the way that this place is presented and reported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo this is really a chance for us to put in place some rules that are sustainable, fair and reasonable, and balanced. I think it would be wise for us to let ourselves have a run at them, then, in the wake of experience, to decide where changes are to be made. On that score, although I respect the amendment that Mr Tanczos has moved, I think that it is a little premature. I think it would be prudent for the recommendations of the Standing Orders Committee to be adopted and for these new rules to be put in place, and reviewed, as to how they work out, at a more leisurely pace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac8a9030230a4486823ed95de5059630\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac8a9030230a4486823ed95de5059630\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the amendment of my colleague. I think that we MPs are taking ourselves too seriously over this issue. I think we are being too precious. Ridicule cannot be banned; that is absolutely ridiculous. I think we ridicule ourselves by trying to ban it. Satire cannot be banned; that is ridiculous. I think we will attract the very ridicule we are fearing by seeking to ban it\u2014to prohibit it. I think we need only to read the letters in the Dominion Post today to see the sort of ridicule that this unfortunate decision has already attracted on to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAs my colleague said, the members of the Standing Orders Committee probably were not thinking too deeply about these issues. They did not hear from the media, as they ought to have done, and, frankly, in my view they got it wrong. You know, this happens. It happened with the microchipping. We had to admit that Parliament had got it wrong and we could seek to rectify it. So I think we need to acknowledge that the committee has got it wrong and that we need to give it a bit more thought. We need to re-examine the issue, and we need in particular to realise that we should stop taking ourselves so seriously and being so precious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe should just think for a moment about how ridiculous it is that we in this House are trying to ban ridicule. It is a bit like prohibition. You know, people try to prohibit the use of marijuana and so that encourages its use. This is the same sort of thing: by trying to prohibit the ridicule and satire of this House, I am absolutely certain that we will encourage it. We will have media people all over the place, up and down the land\u2014not just those from Eating Media Lunch but others\u2014inevitably having the temptation to ridicule us, to satirise us, and, indeed, to denigrate us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EFrankly, much of the behaviour in this House is behaviour that should be ridiculed and probably is ridiculous. It may be that by allowing more open coverage, I hope, we will encourage better behaviour in this House. We need to remember that it was not very long ago that Onslow College students came and did a survey of behaviour in this House, and they said that they would have been expelled from their school for the bullying and appalling behaviour that takes place in this House\u2014they would have been expelled. Some think that the behaviour in this House is very clever and funny, but a lot of the time it degenerates into bullying and abuse. That sort of behaviour, frankly, deserves to be exposed, deserves to be ridiculed, and deserves to be satirised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI think the one other issue concerns the question of why we are having one rule for still photography and another for TV and film. I have asked what the underlying principle is\u2014what is the reason, what is the thinking behind this? But I have not had a satisfactory explanation. There is not one, as far as I can see. It seems to me that that is another instance where the people on that committee have got it wrong. What is the point of passing what effectively is a rule that has no justification\u2014that does not stand up to scrutiny? I think that that is another rule that needs to be rethought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E In summary, I seek to support my colleague\u2019s amendment. I implore members to support it, to acknowledge that we have made a mistake, and to acknowledge that it is ridiculous to seek to ban ridicule. In so doing we will hold ourselves up to ridicule, satire, and abuse, as has already happened. In making this ban we will encourage exactly what we fear. Let us stop being so precious and taking ourselves so seriously. Let us drop this ridiculous prohibition and support my colleague\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228fa65c2ed783437c8614d41b2f772c78\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 111\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; M\u0101ori Party 3; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000460\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dcacf65da364cda9bf689b3ac58741c\u0022\u003ECriminal Justice Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002208b2da2c1f2d4422bdef08e8a998990f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000463\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 26 June.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7c1d9c5d5d34e5c95c77c8cb4700aee\u0022\u003EPart 2 Amendments to Acts relating to Criminal Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00223e0a6af4c9834d5f9ecc3d044e666fc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e0a6af4c9834d5f9ecc3d044e666fc6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: When the bill was previously before the Committee, Dr Richard Worth had the call. He has 1 minute remaining if he wishes to speak. If not, honourable members, it is time for me to leave the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5. 56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200706281532a0e62e084afda65682d627954f05000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"