"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a1413d9909942daa7b9b1cb9c41ffcc\u0022\u003EThursday, 18 October 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229cf0e63d5cca4596af83ba62e67494ea\u0022\u003EThursday, 18 October 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000002\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f7b6d9201b54e40935828d853dcf01b\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f54b56929f834e2095685a96d7c81575\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00229ba49d0a73684d77b47b5dedd828f471\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ba49d0a73684d77b47b5dedd828f471\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House progress will be made on the Crimes (Repeal of Seditious Offences) Amendment Bill, the Human Tissue Bill, the Oaths Modernisation Bill, the Copyright (New Technologies and Performers\u2019 Rights) Amendment Bill, the Armed Forces Law Reform Bill, and the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill. The third reading of the Income Tax Bill will be the last item of business on Thursday, with the intention being that the House should rise at 5 p.m. so that members may attend the farewell function for the Clerk of the House, David McGee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022d844fe5f3ad740028c22927f9ffd70c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d844fe5f3ad740028c22927f9ffd70c3\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I was listening closely to the Leader of the House, and he did not mention the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill, which was going to be discussed this week. I wonder whether it is going to be discussed next week, or is the Government a bit worried about the public reaction against that bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022516d23afe16d4b0ab05529b223ebd17a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022516d23afe16d4b0ab05529b223ebd17a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E It is not media commentary that determines the Government\u2019s business but the Leader of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022287fe562b04c4658afc557393404ae98\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are there any further comments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a930229f674867824addab44778b72\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for the sitting hours of the House on Thursday, 25 October to be from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e6352bb5aa248be89da125b3fac8c5d\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224aefeee14b084aeab28eeb7030543075\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227beda2e137114aa4bf463926d85ad618\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a79a9f1c7075419f937559a8130474a0\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Very Low-cost Access Scheme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc852fb90d74a6195a685c67325c312\u0022\u003E1. MARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has he received any reports on the number of people benefiting from the very low-cost access scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022308b0d5a35eb4adcb6e035954c5ab79c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022308b0d5a35eb4adcb6e035954c5ab79c\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: There are now 1,039,655 New Zealanders enrolled in the scheme, which keeps general practitioners\u2019 fees at $15.50 for adults, $10.50 for young people aged between 6 and 17 years, and free for under-sixes. That is over 1 million New Zealanders who pay under $15.50, while the rest pay an average of $25. On average, the cost of a general practitioner visit has halved under the Labour-led Government. The question on my mind is whether the National Party is celebrating this, or is it intending to take charges back to where they were, and beyond?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d67dc645122847da98d0df5bc3edc39a\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports of initiatives that will threaten lower doctors\u2019 fees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1fa13d969ff4af2803fff73924d6167\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have\u2014the National Party\u2019s secret plan to let the market set the price for people seeing a doctor, which will drive many people away from getting health advice. John Key and his friends think it is OK for something like health to be a market commodity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8c2f3c0171b41c9bd8b836868e0ca42\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: What action is the Minister taking to ensure that the Government\u2019s success in providing access to affordable health-care is extended to cover accident and medical services in centres such as Porirua, where staff shortages are threatening after-hours services to north Wellington, Porirua, and Kapiti coast residents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0e6dcdd26a44f608d5f44f7acd328eb\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: This action, or any action, would be, of course, the responsibility of the district health board. After-hours services have historically been a problem, as people do not get ill between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. all the time\u2014I appreciate that. But this Government has added 4,000 nurses and 1,200 doctors to rebuild the health sector decimated by the previous administration, and all of those additions will help a multitude of health services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a72424c66a094df8a304d46689b4f5f0\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any report that cheaper doctors\u2019 visits actually have a positive effect, even for people who do not necessarily need to see a doctor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed318b46c824d7f93b592e61f206d6c\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: As a matter of fact, I have. When the Consumers Price Index figures came out this week, inflation figures were lower than what just about everyone had estimated. Treasury said: \u201CIt was mainly because the effect of increased Government subsidies for health and education was greater than expected.\u201D Inflation in the September quarter was 0.5 percent. Treasury said: \u201CWithout the increases in Government subsidies the quarterly increase in CPI would have been at 0.9 percent.\u201D Even the meanest-minded members of the Opposition must realise that without the Government paying these subsidies, interest rates would rise, mortgage payments would rise, and people would be much worse off, which, of course, they would be if the National Party health policy was implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b7dc3d5abb045479335ee6e8a358972\u0022\u003ETaxation\u2014Australian Tax Cuts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E2. Dr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National\u2014Rodney) on behalf of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224214b3de8b114d198169adbaf8c0361c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement, regarding recently proposed tax cuts in Australia, that \u201CThere\u2019s nothing for anybody under $30,000 a year\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00229ac0bc37802543f38aad68e51823d275\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ac0bc37802543f38aad68e51823d275\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E No; because the advice I received initially failed to recognise the effect of the low-income tax offset, the Australian equivalent of our low-income earner rebate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3de2dff5d3b465b8c88228a160e6e13\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022788c09dd61e443bfa37c2079109b204c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think I should spread the pills out amongst them! If ever fully implemented, the proposal would see zero tax cuts on incomes of up to $11,000 a year, compared with $128 per week for those on $200,000 a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7a3033783b440d9d44593121a5ab3b\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the recently proposed tax cuts in Australia would actually deliver about $8.65 a week in the first year to those earning under $30,000 a year, and why does he consider $8.65 a week\u2014almost $450 a year\u2014to be nothing for people in that income bracket?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211b2ceea2641458882bc101216968e8f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member did not listen to my answer. I said that the initial advice I had did not account for what the Australians call the low-income tax offset. Taking account of that the member is quite correct, but there is still no change on incomes of up to $11,000 per year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c385b79e4d684d5690e23c53cd11da94\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any reports on the value of delivering tax relief of around $10 per week for working families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f47b010c57b4b97a082e85cb65f167a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen a taxation policy that proposes scrapping the $10 per child per week tax credit extension to Working for Families in order to pay for tax cuts for the better-off. I have also seen reports of a vote in this House where the National Party refused to endorse the Working for Families increase of $10 per week per child in tax credits that came into force on 1 April 2007, one of the most significant poverty elimination measures advanced for many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c8cdb7dc1a4bd68730426e255f4a7f\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that across-the-board tax cuts favour the wealthier members of our society, and does it further concern him that such tax cuts often lead to user-pays regimes for Government services, thus disadvantaging further the less well-off, such as young families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225898aba0633945cf89b6a8376ccb21cc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have made it clear that any programme of tax cuts under the Labour-led Government must be fair, and that the cuts must also not impact upon the ability of the Government to deliver services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a1bc2c78584b62b4ca862d3c4d64a8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct, as the Minister has just alleged, that the Australian tax package proposal did nothing for income earners earning less than $11,000 a year and delivered significant tax cuts for those on higher incomes, because in fact those earning less than $11,000 in Australia pay zero tax\u2014unlike the situation in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d719fae97994effaa7544b9c5232efa\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The effect of the tax offset is precisely that; it is the equivalent of our low-income earner tax rebate. The National Government, in its changes in the 1990s, reduced the low-income earner tax rebate with every change it made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221852750b112e4327928afad53d575e49\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on support for initiatives to reduce taxation in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251962cad2960442a996710bda783f419\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen reports showing that this Labour-led Government has reduced taxation on working families\u2014that was opposed by the National Party. I have seen reports that this Government has reduced taxes on business on multiple occasions\u2014each time that was opposed by the National Party. I have seen reports that this Government has reduced the taxation on savings\u2014that was opposed by the National Party. New Zealanders need to remember that when the National Party talks big on tax cuts, its members do everything they can to actually stop them when they get in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208ce532834d1406d821005e320b1d446\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: If there is nothing in the proposed tax cuts in Australia for anyone earning under $30,000 a year, is it correct that a low-income earner, say on $16,000 a year in Australia, if the proposals were fully implemented, would pay $2,790 a year\u2014almost $54 a week\u2014less in tax than someone earning the same $16,000 here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277397ff2dfec457da7cd5a2eec9017f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The fact is that the Australian taxation system is more progressive than New Zealand\u2019s taxation system. Tax is lower at the bottom end and higher\u2014higher\u2014at the top end. The National Party\u2019s proposal at the last election did absolutely nothing about rectifying that position at all; its tax proposals would not have given larger gains to those at the bottom end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fb1905fdfbd4be08f99691239d80f46\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his advice to his Cabinet colleagues that the Government should \u201Cnot adjust tax thresholds in the medium term thereby retaining fiscal drag\u201D, and that if it does eventually adjust the tax thresholds for inflation, it should retain some portion of fiscal drag to \u201Cfinance our decisions.\u201D\u2014is that still his position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214e22d1329d5409885f8350783928f20\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The proposed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022098c6dc425dd4293aa08092fb810c4f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CLolly-nomics\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d3192086515471c9d717bb39d52bd80\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That member cannot just shut himself up, can he? It is terrible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebd4539b5cc043ff8ec69002dd90d027\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Although interjections are, in fact, permitted, some interjections create disorder. If that continues, then I will ask members to leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3e5af3453f84a0aabd55edbc5fc094b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The proposals put forward in the 2005 Budget did indeed retain some elements of fiscal drag because the adjustment was by means of consumer price index adjustment, not by means of average wage adjustment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022750fe3c61e5e408090011702c641abe0\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Should ordinary New Zealanders who currently pay what used to be the rich person\u2019s tax rate of 33c in the dollar, and who after 8 years are still waiting to see the tax thresholds adjusted or the rates reduced, take it from the Minister\u2019s comments that he considers tax cuts that deliver less than $10 a week to low and middle income earners to be worth nothing to them, and that he considers tax cuts that deliver more than $10 a week to be unaffordable; and should they therefore conclude that his promises to address bracket creep and fiscal drag are, in fact, worth nothing to them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022757d8203d039469ba7f4bb90082d03ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all. What they can take from them is what is a reality: $10 a week to somebody on $25,000 a year or $30,000 a year is worth far more than $10 a week to somebody on $150,000 a year or $200,000 a year. Yet the National Party continues to support changes that will give more to those at the top end than to those on low to middle incomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022128fc4a2f3554c2f995410eb5b43d45c\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Education Strategy\u2014Government Agencies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1ea06509568428aa6b8b3470ef402eb\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Kua tae atu te tohutohu ki a ia, ko t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 tino kaupapa nui kua kitea e ng\u0101 whakawhitinga whakaaro m\u014D te kape tuatahi o te Rautaki M\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, ar\u0101, a Ka Hikitia, ko \u201Cte mahitahi a ng\u0101 pokap\u016B K\u0101wanatanga, ko t\u0101 r\u0101tau hono hoki, t\u0113tahi ki t\u0113tahi\u201D, \u0101, he aha rawa ng\u0101 rautaki kua whakaritea kia tino kore ai ng\u0101 mahi a \u0113tahi atu tari K\u0101wanatanga e tukituki i ng\u0101 wawata o \u0113r\u0101 e whai ana i ng\u0101 ara m\u0101tauranga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E[Has he been advised that consultation on the draft M\u0101ori education strategy, Ka Hikitia, has identified that one of the themes that participants think is important is \u201CGovernment agencies working together in a collaborative and connected way\u201D, and what strategies are being put in place to ensure that activities in other departments do not unduly compromise educational opportunities?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb001233fc944d22b73bf1272dd6e975\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb001233fc944d22b73bf1272dd6e975\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E A call for Government agencies to work together in a more collaborative and connected way is not new, but it is important. That is why it is in Ka Hikitia. The Ministry of Education regularly works with key education and Government agencies on a wide range of issues. It is certainly my expectation that where the actions of one department will have an impact on another, departments will work together to minimise that impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9548ce0fb9945eb8685b3e581057f54\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister received about the impact of New Zealand Police actions on k\u014Dhanga reo and kura located in R\u016B\u0101toki, Waimana, Matah\u012B, and T\u0101neatua, following the fact that the R\u016B\u0101toki community was locked down, roads were sealed, and people were isolated during the raids of Monday, 15 October?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b1694c0ccb462da60dc4875ad78851\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not fully briefed on police operations this week. The member would probably need to direct his question to the Minister of Police to get more detail on what actually took place. But I would like to point out that the police operation was independently initiated by the police. It was a country-wide operation that impacted on a wide range of people from a wide range of backgrounds and circumstances. We are all waiting to see what exactly will arise from the police activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWith regard to, for example, the alleged boarding of the school bus, which I took some particular interest in, I advise that no police boarded that bus. The bus was facilitated through the roadblocks where there were armed police. Of course, it impacted on the schools that day, but my understanding is that those schools and k\u014Dhanga have gone back to operation as per normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae439d9012e84adab7ef7924d8131f0f\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: What crisis intervention assistance and culturally appropriate trauma counselling will be made available to te k\u014Dhanga reo o T\u0101neatua following the events of 15 October, after its van, full of preschoolers, was stopped three times at three separate roadblocks and reportedly boarded by an armed offenders squad in full combat gear with guns, leaving the children\u2014the tamariki\u2014extremely distressed, some still too afraid to go to k\u014Dhanga reo 4 days later because of the fear of the \u201Cninja army\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12cf79746f44fa6a380398b0ca639a5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is really important at this time for cool heads to prevail while we wait to see what will arise from the police investigations. Labelling is probably not the best thing to do at this particular time. I say again that my advice is that police did not board any transport and that children were facilitated through the roadblocks to make sure they moved on their way. In relation to trauma and counselling, the member will be aware that the Ministry of Education moves very swiftly on requests by schools to deal with those issues and to provide counsellors and support. It will do so in this case as soon as it is invited to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe657aaae91c41a082502681f2d2b8bb\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the plan for action in Ka Hikitia that recommends that Government agencies working together is one of five factors that can make the most difference for M\u0101ori students; if so, what protocols will he recommend to the New Zealand Police to ensure that children are not subjected to police actions that can cause long-lasting trauma?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf7a8a8ea8c4124b23918d96f3dfb5e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that we are waiting for the full details of these operations to emerge; therefore, I do not have them. But what I am aware of is that the police appear to have made sure they did not board transport or put themselves in those kinds of situations the member is alluding to. We will have to wait for full details to emerge, but that is my understanding. I hope the member will ensure that the information he gets that he makes available in a public platform is accurate information, because, as I said, at this time I think it is very important that cool heads prevail, that we wait for full details, and that we are accurate in what we say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022985096f5b5564cefb752300e2703d038\u0022\u003ETe Ururoa Flavell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the information given by the Minister in his answer, but I ask him, through you, whether it is appropriate to address the question in respect of the concerns coming through the constituency, which were about the work that will be done by the New Zealand Police to ensure that the children are not subjected again to any actions. If he could address that part of the question, it would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223ebc948f87442b7b2582695414a298f\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the Minister did address the question, but if he wants to add any more, then he is perfectly free to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200fcabd55a8b4e5888d389fdf3dbcfc7\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important to clarify exactly where the question needs to go. If the member wants to know about the police, unfortunately he needs to ask a question of the Minister of Police. But as Minister of Education I say that it is, of course, my interest, and I am making sure that I am being kept up to speed with what is going on around young children in our country and in our schools. As I say, if trauma teams are asked for, they go straight in there to assist. I am assured that the police did not board buses; they treated children properly. It will emerge\u2014and I see that the member is not agreeing with me\u2014if the factors are different from that, but that is what I have sought to do. If the member wants to know precisely about the police, then unfortunately he will need to ask the Minister of Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e0b4ff72d464ac499fafe47b90e4f69\u0022\u003EJustice, Ministry\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286f79bd36fa94781b71b225ce48efb8a\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he have confidence in the Ministry of Justice; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002231ade42ae68142fea1c5ff715869ba45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231ade42ae68142fea1c5ff715869ba45\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Generally, yes; because they are hard-working and conscientious public servants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abddc10008a74d82805a674f82ef56d0\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that his ministry\u2019s latest forecast of the prison population, released in July this year, projected that the number of prisoners for 2007 during the peak month of September would be 7,959, yet the actual muster was 8,372 at the beginning of September, and that he stated on 1 October that New Zealand\u2019s prison population is now approaching 8,500?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbbbb7c3f94b4eeeb7c752a0d1054843\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the figures in front of me, but I am sure I can rely on the member being accurate in the report he has given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022190a475ae78340c29663e6646a47db83\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the forecast of 7,959 inmates takes into account his Government\u2019s Effective Interventions initiatives to reduce the prison population; and is it any surprise that those policies have failed, when one of those initiatives, electronic bail, was expected to be granted to \u201Cupwards of 1,000 defendants per annum in order to save 120 prison beds a year\u201D, yet in its first 10 months only 56 defendants have been on electronic bail, thus saving just eight prison beds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022786ccd14ecfa493a8ea6b1fdc3d40b53\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I do not have the figures in front of me, but I am sure the member is quoting accurately. I say to the member that if he wants to put down questions about the operation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa5bde8bbe2147a6870015acfe5f8f76\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: He has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212eeb40d2d5a4981b13a42895da2a5f0\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: For goodness\u2019 sake, the member should listen to the whole answer. If the member wants to put down questions around the operation of electronic bail, that is actually a matter for the police, and he should put the question to the Minister of Police. Equally, the member should be aware that the Effective Interventions policy was about slowing the rate of growth in the prison population, and that is something that was made very clear at the time it was announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022206ea51c596e42c6b71987e22262c9a5\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that two of the reasons that the prison population may have increased are, firstly, that this Government is committed to increasing the numbers of police, and will have done so by more than 1,000 front-line officers, and, secondly, that this Government put into effect the tough legislation that the National Government never had the guts to do over 9 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247c06ef3d56c4b9aa19796eec7e1661b\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, I can confirm both of those things. That is a good illustration of why they are called projections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236fbe13cb69844878c98ca3147bd06b4\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the current prison muster is close to the total capacity of the prison system of 8,624, which includes beds set aside in the event of a disaster; and is the approaching crisis the reason why the Deputy Prime Minister told the House last month that Cabinet devotes \u201Cconsiderable attention to keeping track of what is going on within the prison system\u201D, stating: \u201CIt is one of the few areas where \u2026 every week we examine the number of people in custody,\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f3731a6d294a12bcf1f68a36df9c75\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I would have thought that the member would understand by now that if he wants to put down questions about the prison muster, he should do so to the Minister of Corrections\u2014that is his portfolio responsibility. As to the other matter, I think the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s statement illustrates why this Government takes issues around law and order and imprisonment seriously\u2014clearly, more so than the National Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a460f12052de472db7aeafae92046440\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister read a March Budget paper that states that the Effective Interventions decisions already taken have allowed Ministers to avoid decisions on 800 additional beds over the 5-year period to 2011; and given the current prison population is now at the level it was forecast to be at in 2011, does he concede that Effective Interventions seems to be failing to reduce the prison population?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022987cd91bdaf94f178f3ee10f256a259e\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84bc184f9da4626b911f2fcafc5076b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister\u2019s Government build another prison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270a10bc4212a402aabc1bb4c8e8bd522\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can only paraphrase the Deputy Prime Minister and say that we will someday, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245bd5c887ce04c74a04f67f37642d65f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that National Party members, who were supposedly wanting to get tough on crime, were advising local communities on how to stop prisons being built in their local areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aba5a17d3ab949b6b1feac8ef43768ec\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed I am, and I think it is just a further illustration of National\u2019s\u2014there is a word I cannot use\u2014double standards, which we see daily in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53487e59cc44a4684b6bf800fc5724e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the last three forecasts from his ministry have consistently underestimated the prison population, yet, unlike the previous two, the latest forecast was quietly posted on the ministry\u2019s website without a press release from the Minister himself; and is that because he knew by the time the forecast was released that the actual numbers had already overtaken that forecast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ddf87911454de285b25ed5b685ec1a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9ebdf44614a4500808da23e26931998\u0022\u003EPolice Operations\u2014Complaints\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2dbc5f75d6541868bc7fb2aef58c7ba\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Has she made any complaints over any aspect of police operations in the last week; if so, on what grounds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022031d60c49c144eeda8281b8c185a52b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022031d60c49c144eeda8281b8c185a52b2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E No. There is a necessary separation between the Minister of Police and the Commissioner of Police over day-to-day policing decisions. This separation has been consistently upheld by the courts, and was the subject of an authoritative opinion by the then Solicitor-General in 1993. The constitutional principle of police operational independence is one that this Government is committed to uphold, and we look to other political parties to do likewise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fd84af900f9485e8fcda3ad7b0bc47c\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be seeking an explanation from the Commissioner of Police about raids such as one on Tuesday where a Tauranga pensioner\u2019s home was raided in his absence\u2014his window was broken, his door latch was smashed, and his belongings were strewn all around his house and his shed\u2014yet no charges or explanation followed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228515fd41de7a40d792dcf235a1ee912c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will not be seeking an explanation of police actions in their operations. If any member of the public is dissatisfied with any action of the police, there is a proper and appropriate body for people to go to, to lay those complaints. It is not for the Minister of Police to troll through police operations and decide which bits are the good bits and which bits are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1afbee52174c9ab3f03c8a0afb2059\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister\u2019s answer mean that there is nothing the police could do that would lead her to seek an explanation from them or to make a comment to them; does this mean that she is quite satisfied that, by disrupting a workshop on yeast-free bread baking and seizing the computers and the underwear of the organisers of the very popular Ecoshow, under the Terrorism Suppression Act, the police are contributing to protecting the New Zealand public; if so, from what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294be351c752f4cbeb35013d149169f14\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Police must act within the law. If the police did not act within the law, then this House and the Minister would be concerned. I do not know why the police would be looking at particular items; neither does that member. I suggest that those members breathe through the nose for a little longer, and allow the police to do their work and the proper institutions in this country to look at those actions, rather than rush to an opinion, which I do not believe is helping at all in terms of the debate over this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222835d99debc948ada38cfd3aaec253da\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How does she believe it possible that the New Zealand public could have been protected, and from what, by the police seizure of the computer of a visiting Swedish banker, a keynote speaker at the Environment and Conservation Organisations show in Taup\u014D yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236719ec9fe02461f9b584fb6838986cd\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I have no idea what is on any computer that has been seized. I suspect that the member does not, either. I believe she should not rush to judgment, but should wait until the proper processes have been gone through to see whether what the police did is correct. The member is making judgments without having all the facts. I do not believe that is helpful to the debate, at all. The member knows\u2014because I have spoken to her\u2014that the police were taking this very carefully. They were being very careful about what they did. They tried to follow through what was an operation of many, many months as carefully as possible, wanting to get to the bottom of what could be a very serious issue for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bceb12689af4f9eb27ae4785684dd02\u0022\u003EEnergy Strategy\u2014Emissions Trading Scheme and Greenhouse Gases\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d539c6e3c65948b59752031055fdd5eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: Is he satisfied that the analysis behind the emissions trading scheme and proposals to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the New Zealand Energy Strategy is realistic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002283ee694375754fadaa4a5f14731c6c25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283ee694375754fadaa4a5f14731c6c25\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I am. Work across these policy areas is well integrated. The emissions trading scheme has been reviewed by independent economics consultancy Infometrics Ltd and came up trumps. New Zealand has a competitive advantage in renewables, and the Labour-led Government is going to seize that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262be2be580a84f1e8d1fb78b48c0892e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Energy Strategy provide for growth in electricity to 2025 of just 9 percent, or an annual growth of just 0.4 percent per year, when growth in the use of power has consistently grown at 2 percent per annum for the last 20 years, and when he is proposing hundreds of thousands of new electric cars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d724618ceb14ecf8028a84913b476cc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think the strategy does say that. It may say that for the next couple of years there is not expected to be a high rate of addition of capacity, but that could, of course, be because we have added a bit more than 500 megawatts of capacity this year, which is more than 3 years\u2019 demand growth. I am advised that electricity demand is expected to increase by between 15 and 20 percent to 2025, equating to between 1.3 and 1.5 percent compounding growth per annum. This is lower than recent historical trends of up to 2 percent per annum, but that difference reflects the gains expected from efficiency as a consequence of the National Energy Efficiency and Conservation Strategy and the Electricity Commission\u2019s expanded electricity efficiency work programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226899897a474d4921aeae8c76819dc581\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confident that the domestic emissions reduction amount signalled in the independent Infometrics study can be realised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a8fd5c26e164a5a93612fc7b2405d62\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, absolutely. Without counting emission reductions from avoided deforestation, which will be substantial, and without counting reduction opportunities in agriculture from the likes of nitrification inhibitors, which will at least be significant and could also be substantial\u2014even without taking those into account\u2014the Infometrics model predicted a $25 per tonne of carbon dioxide scenario, which is a 25 percent drop in the country\u2019s deficit. I also make the point that it ran its $25 per tonne scenario not as a prediction that that would be the figure, but because if it used any other lower figure\u2014assumed price of carbon\u2014it could not get any discernable effect on economic growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f77be0b6eb94462a9e96d52364a3de1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders believe the Minister\u2019s reassurances that the Government\u2019s latest energy efficiency strategy will achieve some dramatic drops in electricity use to 75 percent, as well as sufficient power for hundreds of thousands of electric cars, when his Government\u2019s earlier 2001 strategy achieved less than a fifth of the gains it promised, and when it contributed to the 2002 bungle over New Zealand\u2019s Kyoto balance and to the two power crises that were experienced earlier in the term of this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f62ae2006f4baaad43712a5a2a2276\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is well aware that the main reason that electricity-related greenhouse gas emissions increased was as a consequence of M\u0101ui Gas running out and Huntly switching from gas to coal, thereby increasing emissions. In terms of my confidence as to New Zealand doing better in energy efficiency, I refer the member to the KEMA study that has been released this week on the website of the Electricity Commission. It shows, with the best cost-benefit analysis this country has ever had, that very affordable reductions in electricity usage are available in all sectors. Of course, the levy-making powers that the Electricity Commission now has, in addition to the extra funding that has been put into this through budgets through the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, mean that the projects that are necessary to bring forward those savings will, in fact, happen. On that last point, I note that requests for proposals on some very significant proposals are going out this week from the Electricity Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632b79ac75ae455493bc6fb0f97dd95d\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that there are some real and genuine concerns in sectors of our society that the Energy Strategy announced by the Government will have an adverse effect on the exploration for gas and, possibly, oil; if that is the intention, will he confirm that; if not, what will he say to those people to allay their fears?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee690b3db3e7430baa9c6f6a0639ddec\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first point I would make is in respect of the major exploration work that is expected in the next few years in the Great South Basin. None of that is occasioned by New Zealand demand. I spoke with the chief executives of two of the major oil companies involved down there before the tender rounds, and they confirmed to me that their interest is stimulated by the potential size of those resources for export markets, not for the New Zealand market. In respect of the New Zealand market for gas, it is an unavoidable reality that if we have more focus on renewables, we have less focus on thermal alternatives. It is two sides of the same coin. However, having said that, I point out that we will still have a dependence on gas in industry and in electricity generation to a significant extent for years to come. That, in itself, will be a market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e2df0180ee4ce7b0ebd1072450729d\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister satisfied that a realistic way of incentivising agriculture to reduce its emissions is to exempt it completely from any price on carbon until 2013 and rely on voluntary action, given the sector\u2019s complete failure to get anywhere near the targets it agreed to with the Government in the 2004 memorandum of understanding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259989243c6e74fb7bf07f6db90ff4a3f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: A number of reasons are behind the Government\u2019s proposed decision in respect of that, including a signed agreement with the industry that we thought we would be accused of breaching if we imposed a price-based measure before the end of 2012. However, I do not accept the proposition that there is no incentive on the agricultural sector to reduce its emissions in the meantime. The proposed level of allowance, or grandparenting of emission rights, on 1 January 2013 is 90 percent of 2005 emissions. If the emissions increase above 90 percent of 2005 emissions between now and then, the sector will be paying for them. So there is an incentive for the sector to start reducing its emissions from now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0af86a8c40b441d94358452fbdaad30\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How many Eveready batteries will New Zealand need to import to power the huge fleet of electric cars the Minister is proposing, when over the same period he is proposing reductions in per capita electricity use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ba7bd4e02ad4afd9446808eee0cbaba\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member cares to look at the information in the Energy Strategy, he will see that the time period over which electric vehicles are expected to enter the fleet is still some years away. The member seems to be of a party that says we should not try to do anything until it has already been done. On this side of the House we think that occasionally we should lead and give a bit of direction in areas that will obviously be in New Zealand\u2019s economic interest. This is one of those areas. I have no doubt that history will prove us right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e225e405d874e0da4f18a0ae1e3dc3f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How is it realistic for New Zealand to be a world leader in electric vehicles, when in March this year the Ministry of Transport advised: \u201CThe first generation of electric vehicles will have limited application to New Zealand.\u201D, and when the only initiative in the strategy to achieve the goal of 1.4 million electric cars is to form an advisory committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022518f0a12e6cd4527adb99e9775c75805\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the first generation of electric cars is already with us in the world, and it is obvious that they are not in New Zealand. So we are not relying upon that first generation of electric vehicles. We do already have some high-end fully electric vehicles in the sports car market. In addition to that, I say to the member that clever though the engineering students are at the University of Waikato to build a fully electric vehicle this year in New Zealand, I suggest that if they can do it now, then in the next few years the Japanese car industry might be able to too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a653d84cfbd94907ab920424cd2d2185\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why should anyone believe his Government\u2019s strategy for New Zealand to lead the world in new-car technologies, when the record of this Government is that our car fleet has got older every year over the last 8 years and is the dirtiest and the noisiest in the OECD and one of the least efficient; or has his Government become so desperate for re-election that it will say anything to anybody because it knows it will never have to implement it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afbe1783fb5e4b0195dc43f0d0983539\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member would have that status quo continue. We actually want to change it. The other point I would make is that New Zealand is not talking about pretending to be the developer of all this technology. We are just saying we want to be one of the first countries to widely deploy it, and in that we have some advantages. They include our low-cost electricity, our renewable electricity, and the fact that we do not have a domestic car industry based on internal combustion motor production to protect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0cbbd4bef96465187403c54fbb6d36c\u0022\u003EPublic Transport\u2014Auckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c325ce7fdcf43a1bde53460c1ea2c2a\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour\u2014Manukau East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What reports has she received on the improvement of public transport in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00227e22dd109a4b469585c91411e3782c39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e22dd109a4b469585c91411e3782c39\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I have received the 2006-07 annual report on the Auckland regional land transport strategy. It states that many achievements have been made possible from central and local government funding. Highlights of the report include the fact that a million passengers use the northern busway and the Albany park-and-ride; the opening of the Esmonde Road interchange; the construction and opening of eight new railway stations; and the completion of the upgrade of the Birkenhead ferry terminal, with work progressing on Bayswater and Beachhaven. All these projects show the progress being made due to the Government\u2019s investment in partnership in Auckland\u2019s public transport. That was not possible under a National Government, as National invested no more than around $40 million a year in public transport across the whole of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229295fa252a204792a9e710bb453f7f01\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What legislation that the Minister has just introduced will further improve public transport in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a27526074f414a3dab97caec8ea3a11f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question, because on Tuesday I introduced the Public Transport Management Bill, which will give the Auckland Regional Transport Authority new tools to improve public transport in Auckland, and I was pleased that the bill received unanimous cross-party support to go to the select committee. Today I tabled the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill 2007. This legislation, among other things, will allow regions to introduce a regional fuel tax if they want to. One of the things that it would be used for in Auckland is the electrification of its railway network. It will also enable us to be able to hypothecate, or dedicate, all fuel excise duties to the National Land Transport Fund\u2014something the National Party talked about, said it might do, but never got round to doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6a969aa91914a7ab7e1922f87f29d06\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister in a position to advise when, she believes, sufficient numbers of people will be using public transport and the roads in Auckland will become much less congested\u2014certainly in off-peak times\u2014or does she believe that to achieve that, even with our current population, we will need to build more roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efaaec49216b498bb59b09584ae7e57c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There is no doubt that a greater emphasis is being put on public transport today than ever has been before, but it will take a number of years before we have a sufficient number of people travelling on public transport. The great sadness, I suppose, for that member is that we would not have to have quite the same amount of congestion we have now if some emphasis had been put on public transport in the 9 years when National had the opportunity to do that, and maybe we would not have so much congestion if National had invested in roads as well, instead of starving and underfunding places like Auckland. We know that in transport there has to be a balance. There have to be roads for buses to travel on, and there have to be buses, trains, and ferries that are reliable, safe, and affordable. That is what we are committed to, in our land transport strategy, but all we have from the Opposition is the ability to hold up little bits of newspaper and make plaintive cries about what National might have done but never got round to doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f5b47ee013c42259b11c2cb4bd66c56\u0022\u003EElectoral Finance Bill\u2014Refinements by Select Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022494bd51358814b74820205a62300dbc9\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER FINLAYSON (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he stand by his statement regarding the Electoral Finance Bill that \u201Cthe select committee process will add value by further refining the bill\u201D; if so, what refinements was he referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022812e4118641a4a90ada1079979f5be9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022812e4118641a4a90ada1079979f5be9c\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E That is my view, but I would not presume to predetermine the specific outcome of a select committee\u2019s consideration of the matters before it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258bb716dc4bb4b2184abf8124eb7e861\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the reality that the bill is incapable of refinement; and should the Minister not listen to the Human Rights Commission, which, like the New Zealand Law Society, said that the right thing to do is to withdraw the bill and completely rewrite it, or will he continue to toe the party line and defend this indefensible assault on freedom of speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1a131800534126856cc9cbd7fae4a0\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept the first premise in the member\u2019s statement\u2014that the bill is indefensible. It is eminently defendable. It will be subject to refinement, as I said in the answer to the first question, and I am sure that that will help to improve what is already good legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd8848c30b549b6814cc0768155e288\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the delaying tactics of Opposition parties at the Justice and Electoral Committee; if he is aware of that, would he agree with me that those delays are designed to postpone the introduction of the Electoral Finance Bill so that the National Party can run a costly billboard campaign during the early months of 2008, just as it did in 2005?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa0667e3e83a4a8489d527213069bec5\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The first part of the question is in order, but not the second. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a4204b1a804932965ff54d3ce6e69c\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, I think the member has it precisely right and, although as you point out, Madam Speaker, his assumption is beyond my ministerial responsibility, I am sure that it is correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022352c00faf72d43f9b046e0be63443b67\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister will not withdraw the bill, will he ensure, after changes are made to the bill either by the select committee or by Supplementary Order Paper, that the bill is sent back to the select committee so that the public can make submissions and give evidence on what will be fundamentally different legislation from the current disaster, which he commended to the House at first reading?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cd7ffad59584186b4b484d717d76509\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: That proposal, it seems to me, ignores the very fundamental role of a select committee. The member seems to be suggesting that we should call for public submissions, presumably listen to, take note of, and respond to them by way of potentially refining the bill, and then ignore that process and go back to start all over again. I understand that National members want to try any strategy at all to avoid actually having change made to legislation that they used to abuse the electoral system last time, with their friends, by means of multimillion-dollar rorts of the system. I am sorry, but this party will not support that sort of avoidance of fixing the rort-prone electoral law that we currently have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f513a76d32c4db59225757366a6dd39\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that individual members of the Exclusive Brethren Church were the third-biggest spenders at the last election\u2014outspending all political parties except National and Labour\u2014if so, does he think that they should be brought under the sensible rules of New Zealand\u2019s electoral law, just like the rest of us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2a347bfd5194822b7396d28889da520\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is my understanding. I think that when one considers the wide range of expenditure that the Exclusive Brethren undertook\u2014not only the million-dollar campaign that we are all aware of and the $350,000 pamphlet campaign that preceded it, but, of course, the phone canvassing and push-polling undertaken at the urging of various National MPs\u2014which Mr Neville Simmons has recently admitted took place\u2014to try to further undermine the electoral system in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250a58eeb382f4dd6a606d94ddaefc612\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the public have an opportunity to comment and make submissions on the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014yes, or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587110d76cbc489ab319f92aba155933\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: There is no Supplementary Order Paper for anyone to comment on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022496d94c50e874addbc0497ac257b71e8\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister heard reports that this morning in the select committee the Human Rights Commission said it had considered the decision of the Supreme Court in Harper v Canada on which the Minister places so much reliance, but had decided that it was not worth mentioning because all it stood for was the principle of caps on third-party spending; and how does he reconcile that with his own comment last week that the Human Rights Commission had neglected to consider the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240c4b8d07f9e488faa80e6b4b6692bc9\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Human Rights Commission made no reference to the case in its submission, as the member knows\u2014I am sure he has read it\u2014and it certainly did not seem to me to reflect any consideration of it. I say it is a bit rich to have National quoting endlessly the Human Rights Commission, when one considers that that is the party whose then PC eradicator, Dr Wayne Mapp, claimed that minorities had captured certain institutions in New Zealand and were telling people in New Zealand how to think. He said that the Human Rights Commission was one of those institutions, and that it should not have an advocacy role. It is very interesting that for once the National Party seems to place some credence in the Human Rights Commission\u2019s view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002241146229-4d11-415b-a4ac-f4e2b923e95d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e7fc1771e44642a8ef290d15617356\u0022\u003EChristopher Finlayson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister changing his mind on the $60,000 spending cap and changing his mind on the definition of an election advertisement, but will not change his mind on the most glaring omission\u2014that being the lack of any measures in this bill to prevent his party from robbing the taxpayer of $800,000 to fund another pledge card?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223367441c88343eaabf17b0c806fcbf5\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated in my primary answer, I have not yet responded to the select committee\u2019s consideration of these matters, because it has not yet reported. But as for stealing, the real attempted theft in 2005 was the National Party\u2019s attempt to steal an election outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b69868d165d4ff1b4351937e785a506\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports on whether New Zealand First has paid back the money it owes from the last election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255667c16c42540a2b006126df0bbf454\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, the Minister has no ministerial responsibility for that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022154f7f3edcf4419697ff87442826536c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Barely a day goes by when we do not have Government members asking every Minister for reports on all manner of things, and you have repeatedly said that it is perfectly in order to ask a Minister for a report. We are asking questions of the Minister of Justice, and he has responsibility for electoral law. One of the key breaches at the last election was that a number of parties used taxpayer allocations for campaigning, as found by the Auditor-General, and that is why the question from my colleague Simon Power as to the reports the Minister of Justice\u2014who is responsible for electoral law\u2014had received is perfectly in order. I simply ask for some consistency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd77a5e9065d4a01861e9a897bb95e47\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the member\u2019s argument. The fact remains, of course, that reports can be called for, but only reports on matters that are subject to ministerial responsibility. As the member knows, that is not a matter of this Minister\u2019s responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227049d5730a934aafa3dda22c35a7139f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022030b299f999d4e568e90804bb1a1eb96\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Dr Smith; it is not. Please be seated or you will leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223417165bc7f146f8a0ffb665e15264d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Mr Mark Burton, the Minister of Justice, is responsible for electoral law. One of the key debates around electoral law is the use of taxpayers\u2019 money, such as we saw on the pledge card at the last election. I cannot see how you can rule that a question specifically about that, and whether he had received reports on it, is somehow now deemed to be outside his jurisdiction, given the broad range of questions you have allowed on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b24e9d860321433fa2d904bb7644f510\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is not responsible for that matter. The Minister who is responsible for it is the Minister responsible for the Parliamentary Service, which is well known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c976069e3a46ae85c9032722eb100e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Just protecting the Government!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca88c0a73394d0fb22023237d414c73\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member who made that comment please leave the Chamber\u2014the comment that the Speaker was protecting a member. That is totally unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f324ad2ab55e4fdd854e7f949cdd3dc1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Protecting the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022461f8ad08230423f972e4c5c64be7987\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Human Rights Commission in its submission this morning that his Electoral Finance Bill represents a dramatic assault on two fundamental human rights that New Zealanders cherish: freedom of expression, and the right of informed citizens to participate in the election process; if he does not agree with the commission, will he explain to the House why the Human Rights Commission is wrong in its submission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ee32ec1d6a4aff9f345b485fc1f80e\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not agree, because I think that alongside the provisions in the bill there is the opportunity for the select committee to look at those to ensure that if there are areas within it that need to be refined, that is done, and for the select committee to ensure that the purpose of the legislation is as well delivered as it can be. So I fundamentally disagree with the commission. The purpose of this legislation is to protect the right of participation of ordinary New Zealanders, and their right not to have their voices overwhelmed by those who have the capacity to spend large amounts of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002232a5a3cc381e4c5d84b461eb1e455b3d\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Act\u2014Workplace Stoppages\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205f8f18586724c23a5131e1318c85b69\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: What reports has she received on the number of workplace stoppages since the enactment of the Employment Relations Act 2000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022286ee3631dda4edf87d3dd013ddb6acb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022286ee3631dda4edf87d3dd013ddb6acb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Labour: The Minister has recently received a departmental report comparing work stoppages under the Labour-led Government\u2019s Employment Relations Act with the number under National\u2019s Employment Contracts Act of the 1990s. It shows that the average rate of work stoppages has dropped by 21 percent under the Employment Relations Act, the average rate of working days lost has reduced by one-third, and wage losses have dropped by almost 50 percent. Those results do not even take into account the fact that there are 362,000 more New Zealanders employed today than there were under the previous National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ebbbcb079444a5192b619767161fe49\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any other reports concerning the Employment Relations Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215d346ce3b20459ab56bcc4588185383\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister has seen two reports. The first states: \u201CUnder National, expect quite significant changes. There was nothing wrong with the Employment Contracts Act.\u201D A second quote states: \u201CBroadly speaking we weren\u2019t planning to make major changes \u2026 we haven\u2019t argued for some time that we would go \u2026 back to the Employment Contracts Act,\u201D. Both of those conflicting statements unfortunately come from the Leader of the Opposition, John Key. Once again, we can see the billboards across the country demonstrating that Mr Key cannot hold one view for very long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219924e0706fd498bb620b547302d28d7\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister also confirm that Statistics New Zealand has today released results that show that labour productivity growth since 2000 is about half what it was prior to Labour taking office\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c39056347e2b4da3bd89fb0c51ca051d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s because low-skilled people have been getting jobs, you silly member!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ac692871d0d48c3968912973bb2a64c\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those sorts of comments lead to disorder. If the member does it again, he will be asked to leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fba633dff45d49a793c4efa68ed773df\u0022\u003EKate Wilkinson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister also confirm that Statistics New Zealand has also today released results that show that labour productivity growth since 2000 is about half what it was prior to Labour taking office, and now puts us in the bottom quarter of the OECD in this area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e20ed92eb942e4b9b1acef13e7813e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member raises an interesting point, because, of course, the very high levels of unemployment in the 1990s did tend to concentrate productivity. There has been a massive increase in the number of people in employment, but most of them have come in through entry points that are low-skilled positions, and, of course, we end up with a lower level of productivity. As Mr Lockwood Smith would know, the challenge for all of us now is not just to get people into employment but to walk them up the training ladder, to walk them up the skills ladder, to walk them up the productivity ladder. That is the challenge before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002247f520ef2c8d4b429c0431d7dfd352cd\u0022\u003EEducation, Minister\u2014Statement on Delivery of Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b812269d085848fd8e5d262f2a929f16\u0022\u003EPAULA BENNETT (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CThis Government is delivering a better education system\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022edf99177412944fd9ba62c86670bab8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edf99177412944fd9ba62c86670bab8b\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and I thank the member for the opportunity to highlight some of the things that have taken place since 1999: 5,000 extra teachers in classrooms, an extra $4 billion, the introduction of 20 free hours\u2019 education for 3 to 4-year-olds, the provision of laptops for every teacher, the provision of broadband access and free software licences for every school, the reduced number of students leaving school with no qualification, the introduction of the Modern Apprenticeships scheme, the dramatically increased funding for industry training, and significant rises in participation in tertiary education. Time means that I cannot go on any longer, but if any member wishes for an extension of time, can he or she please ask another question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022682b5bb8d0c5404a99efd156cac5805d\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: If this Government is delivering a better education system, why do 9,600 students every year\u2014according to the Minister\u2019s report on the compulsory school sector in New Zealand\u2014drop out of school with no qualification and without even the most basic literacy and numeracy skills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022387c42e0d0b7429d86bd1a5093fa94e7\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the primary question, I was going to say that I am sure that the member is about to rise to point out that there is more work to be done in our system, and I fully agree with that. But I would say to the member that after nearly 9 years of a Labour-led Government, the results are there, they speak for themselves, and we hope to remain here to do more work in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf548709168540ed9de194432a2bfd77\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: How does the implementation of the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) fit within the Government\u2019s overall game of improving our education system; and what recent reports has he received on NCEA\u2019s success?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286c4bb08bb474b27ada4f26f7958d18a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The introduction of NCEA is one of the more important things that has happened over recent years to meet the needs of this century\u2019s young learners. NCEA is designed to ensure we recognise what students can do and how well they can do it. It also helps us recognise where they need more help. It provides a greater level of detail, in other words, on student achievement, and, of course, it has been very strongly supported by employers. I have received a recent report that states that 90 percent of school principals support NCEA, and the majority of teachers and school trustees support it, as well. The report found that NCEA motivates low-achieving students to do better, and very few people have argued for a return to the old system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022909a369299b84686a2199b80bcfa7b47\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister received on the number of students leaving school without any formal qualifications, and how are the policies of this Government actually encouraging students to stay at school longer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744b8be8e7294a77ae84a835834f4bd5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The number of students leaving school with little or no formal attainment has halved between 1999 and 2006. As recent research has highlighted, the introduction of NCEA is helping to motivate students who were previously left behind. We have also introduced programmes such as Gateway, and more recently we have piloted a new Youth Apprenticeships programme, which will give students the opportunity to link their learning to real, on-the-job experience. There will always be more improvements to be made and I would join with the member in saying that we want to carry on doing that, and we are looking forward to doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002263776108-58dc-4cab-baf1-95282c61d0de\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f1bfbf39eaf4e62a9bd2c84e2c53d7d\u0022\u003EPaula Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Why will one of every three 15-year-old males and one of every four 15-year-old females not have even basic literacy and numeracy skills after 10 years in the education system, and why, to quote the Minister\u2019s own report, will most of this group leave study after their first senior secondary year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e28ba93427ac4b729ff0792bb8d6e8a0\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will know, for achievement we compare very well with systems all around the world, but we share the same problem that all systems have, which is that we have some students who underachieve. That is the task before us. There has been massive improvement over the last 9 years, but, of course, we need to continue that. I say to the member that there is obviously a complex range of reasons why students underachieve. It may be to do with their health, family background, or school. But what we do know is that this Government is making a real difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0442024dcc14757a7508952c6e0c1fc\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: How has the learning of children in New Zealand school classrooms today been improved as a result of the reported $94 million salary blowout at the Ministry of Education, where the salaries of bureaucrats\u2014not schoolteachers\u2014have skyrocketed by 154 percent since 2002?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba3e8f677274138909c53b09ca07098\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: A former principal who gets the figures so stunningly wrong could perhaps take over from Lane Nichols at the Dominion Post. Lane Nichols, for example, says that 200 people have joined the staff at the Ministry of Education. The figure is actually 2,000\u2014I know that a zero is easy to miss, but he missed it. Those people are special education staff, who have been brought under the Ministry of Education. As a result of their coming in, their wages have come in as well. It would be helpful to the member if he had a look at our website when he pops back to his office. He will see, for example, that the average salary of Ministry of Education staff has actually gone down. The number of people who are on over $100,000 is exactly the same as previously. The report in the paper\u2014I am sorry to say\u2014is totally wrong. It is a shame, because these are dedicated public servants doing a great job of serving this country, and they deserve better reporting than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c88b2a4caa9466e97015cf1eb20ff5b\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: How far would that $94 million go towards addressing the problem coming out of the advice that the Minister gave to me in his answer to question for written answer No. 16928 (2007) that there is \u201Ca lack of trained reading recovery teachers willing to teach reading recovery in our lowest-decile schools\u201D, and the advice that the Minister gave in his answer to question for written answer No. 15713 (2007) that, compared with 1999, there are now 4,000 fewer reading-recovery hours in our schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a9fcde6a8f84196a1fe47b43c62c558\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, one of the things I would have hoped a person who has been in the education system would know is that schools choose the reading programme they want to use. People have made different kinds of decisions about how they will address issues of reading in their school. I go back to the point I made before, because the member did not seem to listen. He is still using the $94 million figure, as if I had confirmed it. I want to confirm for him and the House that the report is totally wrong. If he has a look at my website when he goes back to his office, he will see the real figures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dce9d987ab142d197b83fcba473a21b\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the report stating there is a $94 million blowout in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222de43f729baf4adb95312f1783bf0971\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed7312db7644054a821ec09950e4ae6\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the answer to question for written answer No. 16928 (2007).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffd542d98ae6470fbd981ee40e7339e0\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749d97b8-a772-4227-83da-b5e264c37bc0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c544cb1e82ab4c1ca3e629a729875164\u0022\u003EAllan Peachey\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the answer to question for written answer No. 15713 (2007).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e46b02daac34858be8a066b9e6ddc16\u0022\u003EMadam SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7cb08164ec24105868ac3a181b08110\u0022\u003EEmissions Trading Scheme\u2014Economic Impact\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d689e04f8695405ba1b6872247190147\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues: What reports has he received on the likely economic impact of the emissions trading system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222fb96468c70c49769760843cee883b3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fb96468c70c49769760843cee883b3b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I have recently received and released an independent report on the emissions trading scheme, prepared by the economic consultancy firm Infometrics. The report concludes that the macroeconomic impact of New Zealand\u2019s complying with our international commitments around greenhouse gas emission reductions, as represented by a variety of indicators, is very small. This is consistent with previous reports indicating that the impact on the size of the New Zealand economy under the Kyoto Protocol over the first 5 years would be negligible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022377bc147e2e0427999e0574200a4eb62\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Will emissions trading reduce emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a65983ed87e4a1c805384f4c04cc0db\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The report also confirms this. Infometrics estimates that significant reductions in emissions will occur in New Zealand under an emissions trading regime. It estimates that during the first commitment period the emissions deficit would decrease from around 9 million tonnes per annum to about 6 million tonnes per annum. That figure\u2014as was expressly stated in the report\u2014is before taking into account avoided deforestation and cost-effective agricultural mitigation opportunities. The report also assessed the cost of reducing emissions through an emissions trading system, compared with the Government just going out and buying emission reductions offshore, and found that it was cheaper to do it through an emissions trading scheme. It also confirms our view that under a Labour-led Government the economy will continue to grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e76cadb98f346948626be9ca2aafc5a\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that the emissions trading scheme will ultimately result in increased power prices\u2014and there is already a lot of concern in society over the levels of current prices\u2014can the Minister advise how far work has proceeded on the compensation package that has been proposed to assist low-paid people on fixed incomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b49ae28e9bc410e9039fd3e8e298ec9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: We have said there will be two components to that package, an important part of which will actually be helping people to reduce their electricity consumption, rather than just paying them to consume the same amount at higher prices. We have said previously that our decisions on this package will be finalised before the emissions trading legislation is finalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205f043acb24341659839ce2d18ee442f\u0022\u003EConservation, Department\u2014Environment Court Case\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221443a9c039304d1285c851e172da603b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Did he support his department\u2019s Environment Court case against the Bayly Trust; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00229e306393af304cc8b482d9f91eb385fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e306393af304cc8b482d9f91eb385fd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; because Waikatea is a regionally significant mature k\u0101nuka forest and an important bird and reptile habitat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d022282f22649f59c9b0cb02eced1ef\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the highly respected Bayly Trust volunteered to conserve 800 hectares of native bush, wanting to clear only 260 hectares of scrub, and why did that proposal not receive the Department of Conservation\u2019s wholehearted support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8fb64f8ff6649e2b55546631968667f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What I can confirm is that the Bayly Trust said it would do that, but it was not prepared to put it into a covenant. Taking the trust to the Environment Court meant that it was required to do so. It was a very positive environmental outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228f50cababfc4a0a90c0a5b779a6a838\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Department of Conservation appeal to the Environment Court the decision of the Wairoa District Council to consent to the Bayly Trust clearing the native k\u0101nuka forest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f644bf73f50242c194ed2c6d41ea1159\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Department of Conservation has had a longstanding and well-known interest in the mature k\u0101nuka forest on the Waikatea block. The Department of Conservation met with the current landowners in 2004, prior to the purchase, to identify the conservation values on the block. It willingly entered mediation prior to the Environment Court hearing, seeking to protect areas of particular significance. The landowner walked away from those discussions. My department is satisfied with the outcome ordered by the Environment Court. Approximately 280 hectares of mature forest will be conserved, with a covenant on pest control and fencing to protect a further 800 hectares of restored indigenous vegetation. It is a pity that this outcome was not able to be secured without recourse to the Environment Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eade633d4b1a4d77a3fde336eb7ddb1f\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How much has the department\u2019s advocacy for the biodiversity values of the Waikatea k\u0101nuka forest saved taxpayers in terms of the carbon costs of deforestation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f549804f174640a2a85dcbe08466ba\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Through the Department of Conservation\u2019s advocacy, 280 hectares of mature k\u0101nuka forest will be conserved. As the forest existed prior to 1990, its clearance would have incurred a Kyoto Protocol liability that the taxpayer would have had to pay until the emissions trading scheme commenced. As the Greens co-leader Russel Norman has pointed out, that liability is estimated at approximately $2 million\u2014a cost the taxpayer will now not be expected to shoulder, thanks to the Department of Conservation taking an active role in this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc42d43c72094bababca66609b33ca3d\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in excess of $100,000 of taxpayer money was wasted by the Department of Conservation on this case, which was inevitably going to be thrown out by the Environment Court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b4edce1ccf4724a5f004c3cebff75e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What I can confirm is that if the Department of Conservation had not appealed the case, the covenants the Bayly Trust said it would put in place\u2014but did not\u2014would not have been put in place. This land is now protected, thanks to the excellent work the Department of Conservation has done. The National Party may want to gut the Department of Conservation, but Labour, like most New Zealanders, supports the excellent work the department does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022977cccaf-581d-4f48-924e-32bf6c54a93d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ab6dc9d1274ac1b40eace0d2593bc0\u0022\u003EAnne Tolley\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm that the Wairoa District Council and the Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Council defended this action for the Bayly Trust, as the regional council was so concerned about the impact that the Department of Conservation\u2019s heavy-handed approach would have on the implementation of its regional plans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec112b98ae2e454d8a9f4263063a4495\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What I can confirm is that when the Wairoa District Council gave its new consent, it did the paperwork properly and the covenants were put in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261eee105fc984c389ca4c6288726ac5c\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How many briefings did the Minister himself receive on this issue prior to the Environment Court hearing; and why did he at no stage instruct his department to pull out because it was on a hiding to nothing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d34757e91b741cf83fa93c17332c52c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted with the actions my department has taken. By the Department of Conservation involving itself in this process, we have now protected this land. If it had not done so, there would be no legal covenant to stop the whole lot being cleared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b090517dd6a4eee94f3bdedd838e0f9\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is so delighted with his department\u2019s actions, will he instruct the department to reimburse the Bayly Trust, the Wairoa District Council, and the Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Council for the costs they have incurred in having to take this matter to the Environment Court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb835d9ca25a46c6846b618b4b97b14a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What I think the people of New Zealand should be very pleased about is that the Department of Conservation has saved the people $2 million because of the carbon credits we have. What I hope is that the Wairoa District Council will be a little less sloppy next time it does its paperwork.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225663243e3103422eb1dd690a4dc26c3a\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What disciplinary action will be taken against the East Coast - Hawke\u2019s Bay Conservator, Peter Williamson, who is pursuing a case that can only be called bullying tactics against a local community, including the council and the local landowner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df01259aefef4c91bdb8fb6e05260bfa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I confirm again that this Government endorses the work the Department of Conservation does in protecting our unique biodiversity, which is something most New Zealanders are really proud about. I know that the National Party would gut the advocacy role of the Department of Conservation, at our peril and to our cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022500ddd1fcfb04329a86a2c48583f897c\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f0e17e19b3f47c78b719a74e7961ae0\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00225fc1e1eac0b14d4b963a53f072c2c004\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fc1e1eac0b14d4b963a53f072c2c004\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. This bill arises in rather unusual circumstances. Members will recall that a few weeks ago in the House, following the recent tragic deaths in Christchurch of three 15-year-old drivers, Emma Reynolds, Melissa Norton, and Chloe Cockerell, I raised a question with the Minister of Transport, who suggested that I should seek to test the will of the House on the matter. The House very graciously, a week later, gave me leave to introduce this bill as a Government bill. It arises because of those incidents, and mounting public concern about road safety and young drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E The principal purpose of this bill is to raise the minimum driver-licensing age from 15 to 16 years, and to extend the length of the learner-licensing period from 6 months to 12 months. At the appropriate time I will move that the bill be referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt is a relatively short bill, with some six clauses. The operative clauses are clauses 4 and 5, which make the age adjustments. The net consequence of this adjustment of moving the age from 15 to 16, and lengthening the period of the learner licence from 6 to 12 months, will be that the time at which a person can obtain a full licence will rise to 18\u00BD years. At the moment, one starts the process at 15 and one can get a full licence as early as 17. The consequence of shifting the period that one starts at by a year, and the period that one can hold a learner licence from 6 months to 12 months, means that the age when the process can be completed will now rise to 18\u00BD years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EA number of comments have been made over recent weeks about whether a change would put New Zealand out of kilter with the international norm. I note that in Britain at the moment the House of Commons is considering shifting the driving age from 17 to 18, to align it with other European nations. I note that in Australia, depending on which state one may be in, young Australians cannot take to the roads until they are at least 16 or 17. In New Zealand the age of 15 was originally struck to coincide with the school-leaving age. That has moved up over the years, and it seems appropriate to look at the minimum licensing age for drivers as a consequence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut there are other reasons, as well, and I want to draw to the House\u2019s attention some of the statistics relating to the involvement of young drivers in road accidents. Although it is true that car crashes that involve 15, 16, and 17-year-olds are similar overall to the number involving 18 and 19-year-olds on learner licences, those figures change dramatically when these age groups get their restricted licences and are able to drive solo. For instance, the number of crashes in the first month after gaining a restricted licence, compared with the last month that one is on a learner licence, increases about 2\u00BD times for 18 and 19-year-olds, and about 4\u00BD times for 17-year-olds, but there is a whopping eightfold increase for 16-year-olds, and an even greater increase of tenfold for 15-year-olds. That clearly shows that the younger the age at which a driver gets a restricted licence, the higher the chance that he or she will crash. That is really the point of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI have heard comments from some quarters that this will adversely affect rural drivers. I even had one person contact me and say this legislation is a total outrage\u2014that he taught all of his children to drive at the age of 12, and why should the law interfere in this way? I have two comments to make in respect of those claims. Firstly, I have little sympathy for the argument of saying: \u201CI taught my kids to drive at 12, so, goodness knows, to hell with what the law might say.\u201D But with regard to the legitimate case of rural drivers who may feel they are being discriminated against by these provisions, I say that that is a matter the select committee should give some consideration to. It should consider whether there is scope or practical ability to give some form of limited licence in those circumstances. I am open-minded on that point. I have some doubt about its efficacy, but I am prepared to see that matter considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOverall, we need to see this in the context of the consequences for young drivers of the current situation. It is certainly true that young people are overrepresented in our road-crash statistics. In the year to 31 December last year, for example, young drivers between the ages of 15 and 24 were involved in 121 fatal traffic crashes, 813 serious-injury crashes, and 3,768 minor-injury crashes. If one takes the past 10 years, 1997 to 2006, one sees that crashes involving 15-year-old drivers have resulted in some 37 deaths and 385 serious injuries. Similarly, crashes involving 16-year-olds have resulted in 146 deaths and 949 serious injuries. In other words, crashes involving 15 and 16-year-old drivers over the last 10 years have accounted for some 183 deaths and 1,334 serious injuries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESome of those deaths have been the drivers themselves, others have been innocent victims, but the net effect has been a very serious impact on a wide range of New Zealanders at a time when, through other road-safety measures, our road toll has been reducing. The figures indicate very clearly that, as with other developed countries, the crash risk is inversely correlated with the age at which a driver starts solo driving. That is particularly so where that occurs before the age of 18. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMembers may say that New Zealand is no different from other countries, that this is part of a worldwide trend, and that these circumstances, however shocking they may be, are no different from what occurs elsewhere. There is some truth in that argument. But when one looks at OECD comparative figures and sees where New Zealand fits on the international league table, one sees that we have the fourth-highest rate of road deaths for 15 to 24-year-olds per head of population. I do not think that that is acceptable, particularly when we have placed so much emphasis under successive Governments\u2014and I note that the member opposite, Mr Williamson, during his time as Minister of Transport was very strong on these matters\u2014on bringing down our road toll, because one life saved is one life to the benefit of this country. The net negative cost of injury, death, and the whole trauma associated with road tragedy is one that is controllable, one we can make positive steps towards reducing. The logic, to me, of making a move now to change the minimum legal driving age, to increase it to deal with these statistics, is compelling and overwhelming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E We are not talking here about removing a right from New Zealanders; we are talking about protecting young New Zealanders, about ensuring that the period during which they take their learner licensing test, through to gaining their provisional licence, and finally their full licence, is one where they can be equipped with the experience and the skills necessary to be effective drivers and where their contribution to negative road-safety statistics can be reduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI want to observe, as I bring this speech to a close, that there is overwhelming public support for this measure. The Television One Colmar Brunton poll on Monday night showed 82 percent in favour of it. There have been polls in newspapers showing similar figures. I think the New Zealand Herald figure was around 87 percent. Most of the people who have a vested interest in promoting road safety and better driving conditions are also in favour of this move. Finally, I note, as I began, that the parents of the three young women who were killed in Christchurch recently, in very tragic circumstances, have also expressed to the Christchurch Press their support for a change along these lines. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u002281ec5a8522234469a1bdafd0e0692562\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281ec5a8522234469a1bdafd0e0692562\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Can I say from the very outset that the National Party has agreed to support this Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill going to a select committee. But can I also say that the National Party\u2014probably like other major parties in this House\u2014has a wide range of views within its members. Some are very supportive, some are not so supportive, and some have some serious questions. I think the select committee will be the process whereby we can go through sorting out what those issues are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI have to say from my own personal perspective\u2014and I will speak to this bill only from my own personal perspective\u2014this is something that I tried once. Members will know that in 1998, in the Land Transport Amendment Bill of that year, I tried to move the age for driver licensing to age 16. We got the proposal through most of the processes, then it fell at the last hurdle. The reason, I think, was the rural-urban split kicking in, with those from rural areas saying it would disadvantage their kids, and we did not quite get the numbers in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI caution members to be very careful about being susceptible to hysteria, such as the hysteria that flew around over some of the other aspects of that licensing legislation at the time. I will give members an example\u2014although there are others\u2014and that is the issue of the compulsory carriage of one\u2019s licence. Federated Farmers and others said that it was an outrage and a disgrace. They said that farmers would be stopped every day and, because they did not have their licences on them, they would be prosecuted. They said that we must not have it. They came to Parliament and put in submission after submission saying that the compulsory carriage of one\u2019s licence must be taken out of the legislation. I asked several farmers whether they had ever been stopped by a traffic officer in the last 10 years, and they said that they had not. I asked them how that would happen now, and they replied that that did not matter, that it would disadvantage their members in the rural community, and it must not happen. Well, I am pleased that we got that measure through, and I have never heard the issue raised again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a948db5ed7a94458959c4374fdc00462\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Like the photo licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7daaf9bccc64094b35ae3fb3f044132\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. Ron Mark is right. That is a second example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe photo licence was going to be the biggest breach of one\u2019s civil liberties. Chris Carter\u2014not the member in this House\u2014a talkback host, said that having to have a photo on one\u2019s licence was like Nazi Germany at its worst. War was waged against me. Questions were raised about whether my parents were married when I was born, and all sorts of things. For the first year after the photo licence came in we saw the biggest 1-year drop in the road toll ever. Leighton Smith, one of the other talkback hosts who opposed me, asked how having a piece of plastic in one\u2019s wallet made the road safer. I told him the answer was easy, because for the first year after the measure came in we confiscated 22,000 vehicles from the road. We caught people\u2014and could identify them\u2014who were driving while illegally on the road. Some were disqualified many times\u2014four or five times for drink-driving. But under the old system, when people did not have to carry the old piece of tatty paper, they could swap it with a mate and the cops would not know who they were, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003ESo I give a caution to this House to be very careful about hysteria when it comes to saying: \u201CThis will do all sorts of things.\u201D and \u201CThis will stop all sorts of things.\u201D I ask members of the House to just look at comparable jurisdictions around the world to see whether similar measures have resulted in disastrous consequences. For example, I think there is a legitimate argument that says that the driving age should be aligned to the school leaving age. I think that is a very legitimate argument for a lot of rural communities. Where I grew up in Matamata, we used to catch the school bus to school. But once we got to the point of leaving school we could no longer catch the school bus, so to get to work we had to be able to drive. I think that is fine. But it might not have escaped the attention of too many people that the school leaving age was raised from 15 to 16\u2014now 16 is the age. So I find it hard to believe that kids will be disadvantaged because they cannot get to sporting activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWell, what about the 14-year-olds? They cannot get to their sports unless their parents take them. My wife tells me she is a permanent taxi driver in Auckland, taking kids to rugby and tennis. My girl has just come back from the aerobics competition in Melbourne. My wife says she is often on the road trying to get our kids here, there, and everywhere\u2014and that is in the city. So get real! It happens for parents, at any rate. I look at a state like Queensland, where the distances from the cities to the rural parts are way bigger than we will ever experience in New Zealand. In fact, some of them are bigger than New Zealand. Yet that state\u2019s driving age starts at 17. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI ask those who have grave concerns\u2014I have heard them over and over again\u2014to please think seriously about this matter. I think 15 is too young to drive. I personally think that 15 is too young to drive. If members want to think about some sort of a compromise\u2014and I advocate that they do not\u2014then let us look at giving some licensing exemption to some children who can be proven to be living way outside of urban areas, who have no alternative when it comes to doing the things they need to, and whose parents are unable to participate in moving them in and out of town. Based on their specific cases\u2014on their address, and for specified hours of the day when sporting or other such activities are going on\u2014we may grant them an exemption. I am not a fan of that idea. I am really a big fan of things like the GST regime, which gave no exemption to anything, because the moment exemptions happen all sorts of lines start to be drawn in the sand, then question marks arise on the other side. But if that is what members from the rural sector are concerned about, then I hope that the select committee looks at the scenario carefully, if there is a need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI say again that members should look at jurisdictions that are comparable to ours. I am a big fan of not reinventing the wheel. New Zealand should not say \u201COh, but we\u2019re different.\u201D We are not as different as that from any countries we like to compare ourselves to. Most European nations, Australia, and so on just laugh at the fact that we let 15-year-olds drive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EOne of my most amazing experiences in relation to photo licences was when I went to the California Highway Patrol headquarters. I went to the officers\u2019 mess for a drink at the end of the day. They got my piece of tatty paper and handed it around and laughed and guffawed. They said: \u201CThis is not a licence. How would we ever, ever apprehend anybody with this stupid piece of nothingness?\u201D. But, at the time, if one listened to talkback and to the feedback, one would hear that photo licences were the greatest crime ever imposed on this country. But I have never heard that issue raised again since the legislation was passed. How many members have people coming into their constituency clinics saying they are really concerned about the photo drivers\u2019 licences? [Interruption] Oh, David Cunliffe has had somebody come in. I did not think people even knew where David Cunliffe\u2019s office was, but, there we go, he has had someone come in. Well, I have not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EIn the last few minutes of my speech I want to repeat what I think the arguments are. I think that extending the time of the learner licence is a really good idea. If there was some way to do so, I would love to measure how much driving people did during that time before they could get a full licence\u2014just like pilots have to qualify with so many hours before they can get a full licence. That is not practical and it is not possible. It would be great to say to young people that they have to do, say, 100 hours of driving with somebody, then when they have qualified with that 100 hours they can get a full licence. I wish that were possible, but the technology is not available and people could cheat or rort it and say they have done their hours. So I am not going to get silly about it, but just getting a learner\u2019s permit on day one, then doing nothing, not even driving for 6 months, then somehow getting a provisional licence, then maybe doing nothing for 18 months, then suddenly getting a full licence means someone may have done only 4 or 5 hours on the road. That does not seem to me to be sensible, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EBut two things do seem to be sensible. First, we should align the driving age with the school leaving age\u2014we always did, and we always should. Secondly, we should look to alternative jurisdictions. I said during the debate on photo licences and I will say it again: if any member of this House can show me a jurisdiction we would like to think ourselves comparable to\u2014I am not talking about Burkina Faso in the Horn of Africa or anything; I am talking about a country that is comparable to us\u2014that does let 15-year-olds drive and has a fantastic safety record, then show it to us. I am happy to be persuaded. But in the debate on photo licences I could not find one. I actually got the Ministry of Transport to troll through every country we could think of to find one that did not have photo licences. We could not find one. Yet Chris Carter on Newstalk ZB said: \u201CIf Williamson gets away with this, I\u2019m leaving the country.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234fa8142f3e44ec2949c8e82e9a6ff44\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237599f2d43a640ea8981166512658044\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he did not actually go. They kicked him off Newstalk ZB but he did not leave the country\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfe0c6d8a02445648bf4a5ea70edbe19\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Why not? He should have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266d1f8ca054046778ef2f31d058fd9c0\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that he should have, but he did not. That was the hysteria of it, but where would he go? Similarly, in this case, if a member says that he or she knows of a comparable country to ours that has a record of crashes and killing on the roads that is way better than ours and it lets 15-year-olds drive, I will be convinced about it. But I do not believe such a place exists and I think it would be really foolish for this House to deny an opportunity for good debate in the select committee and for proper and careful consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u00227f8ffb3f3ebb4f2c9231971d45c5f4da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f8ffb3f3ebb4f2c9231971d45c5f4da\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill. Labour will be supporting this bill going to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI want to comment briefly on what Peter Dunne has said. One of the key phrases he used was \u201Cthe right\u201D. New Zealanders have always had the idea that they have a right to drive. I have a 15-year-old daughter, so I am very aware of the pressure that parents come under on this issue. But with rights come responsibilities. I think this bill has come at a good time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe Government is currently considering a package of measures to create a safer environment for young New Zealanders to learn to drive in, and to develop into competent and safe drivers. I think some of the issues raised by the Hon Maurice Williamson were very appropriate, and I hope they will be thoroughly considered by the select committee, alongside the package of measures the Government is about to announce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI welcome consideration and discussion of the move to raise the minimum licensing age to 16, and to extend the length of the learner licence period from 6 months to 12 months as part of that package. Currently our young people pay, in my view, far too high a price for the opportunity to drive, especially in the first 6 months of gaining a restricted licence. Traffic crashes are the single greatest killer of 15 to 24-year-olds, and the leading cause of permanent injury for that age group. As the Hon Peter Dunne said, last year young drivers were involved in 121 fatal traffic crashes and 813 serious-injury crashes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EFifteen to 19-year-olds are six times more likely to crash than you or me. It is also worth remembering that over the last 4 years fatal crashes involving 15-year-old drivers have averaged two a year\u2014one of which was the tragic case the Minister mentioned in which three young people died\u2014where a 15-year-old driver was deemed to be at fault. Of course, we still do not know the cause of the latest two crashes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThere is a strong commitment on all sides of the House to do something about this, and I commend the Hon Peter Dunne on his launching of this bill into Parliament. It is essential that we create a safer environment for our young people to develop into fully competent drivers. The Government is fully committed to doing this, and it is part of the reason why we have set such ambitious road safety targets in our Road Safety to 2010 strategy. People will be aware that there was a significant consultation programme in the Road Safety to 2010 strategy, which has been running for about 18 months now. A considerable amount of feedback is about young drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E Raising the minimum licensing age to 16\u2014that is, the age at which one can begin to learn to drive\u2014and extending the length of the learner-licensing period to 12 months will not, however, on their own create a safe enough environment. The greatest risk period for young drivers is the first 6 months of driving solo\u2014that is, when they are driving without supervision by a qualified driver. In that period\u2014those first 6 months\u2014as Peter Dunne said, young drivers are estimated to be about seven times more likely to have a crash than in the period when they were beginner drivers and were supervised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThe risk of crashing declines rapidly after the 6-month period. But the learning curve to achieve the risk profile of, say, the average 30-year-old is long. It takes about 10 years to achieve that sort of risk profile. So we need to put in place a range of measures that will shift our young people along the driver learning curve at a faster rate, and with less risk of fatality or permanent injury. In particular, delaying the beginning of solo driving by 6 months will allow for a greater amount of supervised driving practice to occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EExperience in Sweden, which is the safest driving environment in the world, has shown that increasing supervised driving practice to about 120 hours before a young person can drive solo reduces the crash rate by about 40 percent. I am talking about not simply raising the age but actually extending the supervised driving practice period. We are currently considering a range of initiatives alongside raising the minimum licensing age to 16 and extending the length of the learner-licensing period from 6 months to 12 months. In particular, we are considering strengthening the practical driver testing regime. We are not convinced that the current two-test system adequately prepares young drivers for their first months of solo driving. The first test, which, in our view, is the critical one, focuses too much on basic, technical driving skills, and tends to ignore other important factors that determine driving behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EWe are also considering whether the current enforcement regime for the graduated driver-licensing system is working effectively, and while I am on that issue I want to say to this House that our graduated driver-licensing system\u2014the concept\u2014is much admired around the world. That is not to say that it cannot be improved. I believe that it certainly can be improved, and I am looking forward to the debate on this, because I believe we can make substantial improvements. I am aware that non-compliance with the conditions of learner and restricted licences is relatively widespread. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003ELast year I had the opportunity to spend a complete night with a traffic patrol on duty in the Wellington area. Out of the 19 cars we stopped for various things\u2014like not having a tail light, or speeding, or running a red light\u2014seven, I think, were driving outside the conditions of a restricted licence. They either had passengers or they were driving outside the permitted hours, etc. When I commented on what I thought was a high incidence, the traffic officer said it was actually a low number. Normally the incidence of people breaching the driver-licensing conditions of restricted licences was higher than that. The key conditions are the restrictions on carrying passengers and on night-time driving, and these conditions are critical for lowering the risk profile of young drivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EAs I stated earlier, this Government is fully committed to creating a safer environment for our young people to develop into fully competent drivers. It has been one of the themes of my career as a parliamentarian, and, as the Minister for Transport Safety, it is one of the things I take extremely seriously. We support the referral of this bill to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and we will be looking very closely at the debate that occurs at the select committee, once the views of public submitters are known. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EWe will be particularly interested to hear from our rural communities. We are told that increasing the minimum licensing age to 16 raises issues for communities where the availability of transport alternatives is limited. Another issue is whether people are driving for work purposes or for entertainment and leisure purposes. We will also be very interested in the feedback from parents, road safety experts, and young people on the full range of measures that are needed to keep our young drivers safe. This is a very serious issue for the community, an issue that I hope Parliament will debate really seriously. If the beginning of this debate is any indication, I think there is goodwill to come to a very good outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EThere are many countries\u2014much of Europe\u2014where for the first year or so of one\u2019s driver\u2019s licence the only vehicle one can ride is a low-powered scooter or motorcycle. That could solve the mobility problems of some of our rural people who require a vehicle to get to work, or football practice, or whatever it is they are involved in. That might be a possible way forward. I think we should look at a range of alternatives, and I hope the select committee will do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EI look forward very much to the public debate. If the debate is of as good a quality as the debate we have had on the See You There\u2014Safe As programme, I think it will be a valuable experience for New Zealand. It is well time this issue was thoroughly examined, not only by the House but by society as a whole. The issue is that, yes, there is a right to mobility, but with that right comes a responsibility to be a good, safe young driver, and that is what I want to see become the culture of New Zealand\u2014as it is in most other countries. Thank you, Madam Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u002248a6a6db8db840ceb4c7449d016a7367\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248a6a6db8db840ceb4c7449d016a7367\u0022\u003EDAVID BENNETT (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I thought that was an excellent speech from the Minister for Transport Safety, the Hon Harry Duynhoven. It identified some key elements that we will have to look at in the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI know that it is quite easy for us to say we will increase the minimum driver licensing age and that that will solve the problem of traffic accidents involving young drivers, but I do not see age as necessarily being the problem. If we increase the age to 16, I think we will still encounter some of the difficulties we have now with 15-year-old drivers. I think Harry Duynhoven touched on a number of issues in his speech that are crucial to what the select committee needs to look at and what we need to look at as a Parliament. I would like us to ask ourselves what age we were when we started driving. Were we driving at 15? A lot of us were, and it was something we found to be a very important part of our ability to get around our communities, to get to work, to get to school, and to do a lot of activities that we would never have done if we had not had the ability to drive. So I ask members to think of that question, and I wish that members would want to have a look at some other things\u2014for example, the fact that the problem is not a matter of age. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIn this House we have had legislation\u2014for example, minimum wage bills\u2014come through, where people have argued that 16 and 17-year-olds have the same ability as 18 and 19-year-olds to work, the same maturity, and all those factors. Yet here we are doing the opposite; we are increasing the age at which young people have responsibility instead of decreasing it as we were expected to do in the minimum wage area. There is no consistency there in rationale. I know there is a difference in age, but there has to be some consistency also in rationale. How many people will want to trust young people? I say that we do want to trust our young people. These young people have a lot of opportunities out there, and they need to be given some respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI think that the Minister raised some very good points. The question is not about the age; the question is about the limits we put on people at that age. If we look at what the Minister said, some of the issues we can look at are the times young people can drive, their hours of driving, perhaps the vehicles they can drive, and how long they will be in a situation where they have to be supervised. Those are the key issues. Those are the things we need to debate and find solutions for. Raising the age is just a political attempt to get something forthright that the Government can go out and sell. It does not necessarily solve the problem, because the problem will move. If we change the age to 16, we are taking the chance that 16-year-olds will then make up the high percentage of accident victims. There is the chance that 16-year-olds will then represent the people learning to drive by themselves rather than the 15-year-olds who are learning to drive by themselves now. We could easily just move the problem up a year, and just say then that 16-year-olds are the problem rather than 15-year-olds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe mover of this legislation put up some very interesting statistics, and they will be good to see, at the select committee. But there is one question I want Mr Dunne, the mover of this legislation, to answer in relation to those statistics\u2014that is, after a breakdown of the statistics to show how many accidents occurred as a result of young drivers being outside the rules they should have followed. How many of those accidents were in relation to young drivers who were drinking, speeding, or driving outside the hours they were allowed to drive? I ask Mr Dunne to give us those statistics, because they are the real statistics, they show the people who are breaking the rules. If we change the age to 16, we will have 15-year-olds breaking the rules and we will have 16-year-olds speeding, drinking, and driving outside the hours they should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe real question does not concern the age; the real question is whether these people are breaking the rules. If it is the case that they are breaking the rules\u2014which I believe, on my gut feeling, that it probably will be\u2014then we need to deal with that issue. That is the real issue. Are our enforcement provisions strong enough? Are the rules tight enough? Are we setting the right rules, in the first place? Those are the real issues. That is what we need to debate in this House; that is what the select committee needs to work out. If young people just think, because they are 16, that they are driving and they are not going to break the rules, then they have some big lessons to come their way. It is not a matter that at 15 and 16 there is a huge change in maturity that changes the ability to break or not to break the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAnother thing we need to look at\u2014and I think that the Minister was correct about bringing this out\u2014is that driving solo is where we see the real risk of an increase in accidents. That period of driving solo is when the percentages of accidents increase. Well, are we moving those percentages just to an older age group? Is that the real problem, rather than the fact that young people are 15 when they actually begin to engage in driving? That is a question that I would like the mover of this legislation to give us the research on, rather than just give us those figures that relate to all driving statistics and are not broken down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI think we need to look at the practicalities, as well. A lot of people have said that in rural communities we cannot have this measure. You know, people have to drive to be able to go to school, to go to work, or whatever it is. But the reality is that I do not believe that just rural communities are affected now. All our communities have changed, and I ask, how many kids go to school on a bike in urban communities? Very few! That is why we have such congestion at 9 o\u2019clock in the morning and 3 o\u2019clock in the afternoon. People have changed the mode of transport they use. Their kids are either driven to school or they drive themselves to school. That is why we are trying to have initiatives like walking buses and so on, to try to break down that driving culture. But the transport culture is a culture that has changed in New Zealand, and over the last few years the days of kids biking to school has not been the reality because of safety issues. There has been a fundamental change in New Zealand. So I say that it is not just rural communities that will want an exemption; many urban communities out there have a lot of children who go to school by car and who will want an exemption, as well. They will see that they will also be affected by legislation like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at legislation and try to look at communities that have changed, we also need to look at the way in which work environments have changed. Most people now live in two-income families. Both parties in those families, basically, have to go out and work these days. One will have to work to pay the mortgage and one to pay the living expenses. That is what the reality is, in a lot of communities. But we are saying to those people, who are going out there, doing it hard, and doing all the right things, that they may have to wait another year before they can be that two-income family. They may have to wait another year, because we are changing this rule. A lot of people do not go to work because they know that they have those kinds of responsibilities transporting their children, and they are looking forward to giving their kids the opportunity to take some responsibility. That saves some money because people can go out and work as a two-income family. That is the reality of the communities we live in now. The days are gone where there was just one provider in the house; the world has changed. If we deny those families the ability to have two incomes, then we are denying a lot of people a lot of respect, and a lot of time in the workforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EPersonally, I think that this legislation is not the right approach at the moment. I will be on the select committee, and I am looking forward to the information coming forward. I support the bill going to the select committee, and I support the debate. I would like to see the mover of this legislation, Peter Dunne, give us the real figures in relation to young people who are breaching rules. I think that will be crucial. We need to look at this issue of the minimum driver-licensing age on a wider scale. Are we willing to take away the rights of young people just for a political convenience, or is there a real reason why we are doing this? If there is a real reason, then I think we will find that the bill has the support of the House. But if it is merely for political convenience or for show, then I do not believe we should make legislation on that basis. This is too big an issue\u2014to take away the rights of young people just for the power of getting votes. We need to be very careful of that in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00229004a20c78f34237a545c694a5f08979\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229004a20c78f34237a545c694a5f08979\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that was actually a very interesting contribution by the member who has just resumed his seat, David Bennett. It would have been better, perhaps, if he had got many of his facts straight. Let us address one\u2014the minimum wage. I could not understand why he brought that issue up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe minimum wage kicks in at 16\u2014not at 15 but at 16, which is the school leaving age. So bringing the driver\u2019s-licence age up to 16 makes it all compatible. The other impression I got from the member is that he left school at 15\u2014an early age\u2014and that he drove himself around town. I do not doubt that he drove himself around town, but I have my doubts that he left school at 15; I think he was at school in a tertiary education organisation for quite some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EHe gave another fact that I have to take issue with. Certainly, in my area I see more and more kids, children, youngsters cycling to school. There may be older children who drive themselves to school, and there may be younger children who are driven to school by their parents, but more and more youngsters, certainly in the area I live in, get on their bikes and cycle to school. That, I understand, is the reason why Tauranga and other places are constructing all of these cycleways. We are producing cycleways everywhere, because more and more people are getting on bikes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b79aee18e6504b8db50f8ee05b26690a\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: Not in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ef4b8e81cd4c4689ccb2d5cba1b5f7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Not where?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a744a9a7-a2e8-401b-abfb-aec22a3818c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2439d3dd46d48f8be5e2c6c82788248\u0022\u003EKatrina Shanks\u003C/span\u003E: Not in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d2cd9d250e249c7a74a38cb430fac57\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s kind of hilly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4c4fc5c4f143088e86d7f8b760201d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might be the reason for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will support this bill\u2019s referral to a select committee, but that is not to say that we will support it as a party after that. Some of my colleagues have some concerns about raising the age, but we have all agreed to support the bill\u2019s referral to a select committee. One must remember that this bill will go to a select committee because the Hon Peter Dunne sought leave to bring it to the House to test whether the House thought such a bill was worthwhile. That went through very quietly and very quickly at a time when, I think, most members of the House were present. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere was no doubt that Parliament wanted this bill to be considered. One might ask why. Well, the simple reason is that the public want to raise the driving age\u2014they want to raise the age when youngsters can get behind the wheel of a car and drive it. I personally am totally in favour of that. I would not let my own children anywhere near a car before they were 16. If I had had my way at that time, I would have raised the age to 17. Peer pressure being what it is, I won out for a year, but after that I encouraged them to drive at 16. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Hon Maurice Williamson raised a few interesting points. I can recall back to 1998 and the Land Transport Bill, which made reference to raising the driving age from 15 to 16. New Zealand First at one time\u2014and we had just arrived on the scene in any meaningful way at that time\u2014wanted to increase the age to 17. But when we were in coalition with the National Party we were persuaded to drop the age to 16. Sometime later, out of the blue, further pressure was exercised on us by our coalition partner to retain the age at 15, principally because of the rural concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EHad National and New Zealand First stuck together and seen that legislation through\u2014the numbers were there to push it through the House and to raise the driving age in 1998\u2014one has to ask whether a few more people would be alive today. My own view is that we should tack this to the school leaving age. We have had the abysmal record read out to the House by the Hon Peter Dunne a few moments ago, and for that reason alone we must take this issue very, very seriously. I welcome this bill going to a select committee, because I know the public want to have a strong say on it. New Zealand First has been informally canvassing our members, and without a shadow of a doubt they want to increase the driver\u2019s-licence age. Many of them want to increase it to 17.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226752a8c0d9ea4e6aad7356d219667c51\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5fab9f06a44c4a9cb1bed8275e6957\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a few\u2014a significant percentage. Of the few hundred we have met with informally, quite a significant percentage want to raise it. I could not tell the member how many want the age to be 17 or 16, but we asked them pretty genuinely, and there was a clear-cut response from New Zealand First members\u2014they want to raise the driving age. There are some who do not and who probably think along the lines of David Bennett. But, on the sample we tested, I would say that, by an overwhelming majority, most New Zealand First members want to increase the driving age at least to 16, and, as I said, many want it increased to 17. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI listened to the Hon Harry Duynhoven, and I did get the impression that he wants to use this bill to improve, or to address, driver\u2019s-licence problems, per se. That is what it sounded like to me, but I think that is coming in the next bill, is it not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d8446998f224c50b8308965d4afed95\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298896a9d7a24605a848df279f6e7b2a\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: This bill will stick to raising the age and extending the length of the learner licensing period from 6 months to 12 months. But the bill that will follow\u2014when; early next year?\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a20274dba0fd440bb07a325243043724\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Hopefully, soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8c6300e9c74d95a6d34e92d6b6edc5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014hopefully soon\u2014will address driver\u2019s-licence issues per se in some detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI think we have to remember that driving on our roads should be a privilege, not a right. I do not think anybody has the right to demand that he or she can get in a car, on a motorbike, or even on a bicycle, and demand the right to drive or cycle on our roads. People should meet a certain standard\u2014certainly in respect of driving a car, a motorbike, or a motorised vehicle\u2014and they should have to apply themselves diligently and follow the rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EOn the weekend that the Hon Peter Dunne referred to, when three youngsters were killed, a youngster killed a civic leader, Graham Condon. He was killed by a 15-year-old driver. I obviously have a lot of sympathy for Graham Condon\u2019s family and for the parents of the young girl. She will suffer from that for the rest of her life. But had the driving age been 16, one has to assume that she would not have been in the car and that Graham Condon would still be alive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThese youngsters are killing not only themselves but other people. The statistics are awful, absolutely awful. No other country, as we have heard, has the driver\u2019s-licence age at 15. I cannot think of one. I know that in Britain it is 17, and the Hon Peter Dunne told the House a little while ago that it is to go up to 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23138ad366e4ebb8fada75df87679b4\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: The House of Commons committee recommends it go to 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022263adfda32b34a3598cb19b51f72a759\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Dunne is just saying that the House of Commons committee recommends that age go up to 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ESo we are not alone in addressing this problem, and, as David Bennett said, I hope we can address it positively. But first and foremost we have to listen to the public. It is not a decision that we make. We have to go with the public. What the public wants must be the priority. I for one welcome this bill going to the select committee. I am on the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and I welcome listening to the public and hearing their ideas on what should happen. But I know we will hear a lot of sad stories, and it is an issue that we must take very, very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u00227c6016ae573a4d4f88595a64e90ae35d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c6016ae573a4d4f88595a64e90ae35d\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome the opportunity to have a debate about this issue of young people driving, because it is an issue that has simmered in the public mind for some time. It is an issue that shows up in the letters to the editor and the letters from constituents. The Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill is a really good opportunity to get this issue out in the open and widely discussed, and I congratulate Peter Dunne on bringing it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EA knee-jerk response to individual tragic cases is never a good context in which to make legislation, but sometimes those cases are an indication of a much wider problem, and that is why we should consider this. Not all members of the Green caucus are convinced that this bill is necessary and that it is not just another beat-up on young people, but all of us are very happy to see it go to a select committee, to listen to the evidence, and to make up our minds for later votes on the bill based on the evidence that is brought to that select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EFigures provided to us by the Ministry of Transport, which I actually requested a little while ago before the bill was put forward, knowing this was an issue on which we were going to form a view, were quite convincing. I have found in those figures that 15 to 24-year-old drivers are at fault in three-quarters of the crashes that they are involved in, and that those crashes caused by 15 to 24-year-old drivers account for one-third of the total social cost from crashes. The figures also show that the lower the starting age for driving, the more crashes people have, and that the dangerous point is the first 6 months of solo driving before they have had a lot of experience. That suggests to me that a measure to provide for people to have a lot more driving hours\u2019 experience before they drive solo could be a very good change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EMinistry of Transport figures show that the 15 to 19-year-old age group is six times more likely to crash per 100 million kilometres driven than drivers in the 45 to 49-year-old age group. That is a very significant difference. It seems that the learner stage is relatively safe, but there is a period after that when people are allowed to drive solo where, perhaps, there is an attitudinal problem that takes over, combined with inexperience, and this is where the risk occurs. So a longer period for the learner phase before solo driving and taking passengers kicks in may also be a useful way of addressing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt is hard to argue that this bill would not reduce serious crashes and deaths. One might say that that is an obvious reason why we should pass it, but we could actually reduce serious crashes and death by banning driving altogether, but society has decided that there is a trade-off between the road toll and mobility. So the real question is whether the trade-off that we are making for 15-year-olds is actually a worse trade-off than the one we are making for the rest of the population. There is some evidence that it may be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI will consider another consequence of 15-year-old driver crashes, which will never show up in statistics, and that is the impact a crash has on the life of a young person knowing that at an age of inexperience and perhaps with a lack of driving skills he or she killed another person. I think the impact of that on somebody\u2019s life forever is very significant and we should do what we can to prevent people being left with that legacy, which must mar the rest of their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe arguments against the bill in terms of freedom and mobility focus on young people needing to drive cars for their daily activity\u2014for work, for school, or for social activities. I have to say I have no sympathy at all for the argument that young people in cities need to drive cars to school. There are adequate public transport systems in cities, there are bicycles, there are all the ways that we got to school when we were young. I do not sympathise with that argument. But there are some differences in rural communities\u2014and I happen to live in one\u2014where public transport is not available, and where distances from activities are much greater. I remember what it was like being a parent ferrying 15 and 16-year-old children to music lessons because one cannot easily take a cello on a bus or a bike, and looking forward to the date when my son would get his driver\u2019s licence. At the same time, I knew he was actually quite poorly coordinated and he and I made an agreement that he would not even seek his licence until he was 18 because he was a very accident-prone person. So I have dealt with those trade-offs, I guess, in my own experience as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe point is sometimes made that if it is not possible for a young person to get a heavy-vehicle driver\u2019s licence in a rural area, then some employment opportunities are restricted for that person. That may be true, but of course a heavy truck is even more of a lethal weapon in the hands of somebody inexperienced than a light car is, and we have to consider safety there as well. I think it would be very useful if the select committee explore the idea of exemptions in certain circumstances\u2014where a young driver would have to go through additional training like an extended defensive driving course, for example, and would have to demonstrate a high level of skills in order to get the ability to drive solo earlier than the law otherwise states, because of employment reasons or because of where that young driver lives. It would be very interesting to hear submissions on that view and I hope the public will comment on that. There could be a way of tightening up here, reducing accidents for people who have alternatives, and providing greater safety and greater flexibility for people where there are no alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI look forward to the debate in the select committee. The Greens are happy to support this bill in its first reading; we are still divided about what we would like to do after that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022 data-id=\u0022b538bab4bb6f404d93d633b7e9bb53b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b538bab4bb6f404d93d633b7e9bb53b1\u0022\u003ETE URUROA FLAVELL (M\u0101ori Party\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Assistant Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou e hoa m\u0101, i t\u0113nei p\u014D. I am told by my colleague Hone Harawira that downtown in Papatoetoe in Auckland there is a project called Street Talk, which is literally about getting out on to the streets and helping people to be safe. We are not talking about sexual health, and we are not talking about child welfare; the safety brand that Manukau Urban M\u0101ori Authority is promoting is road safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EStreet Talk provides drivers with a chance to learn new safety skills and to look at their own performance as drivers and to improve their style if there is a case for doing that. The programme is funded by the Accident Compensation Corporation. It helps participants to make the right decisions and learn how to manage risk and control, and it even includes the provision of child restraints. It is targeted particularly at M\u0101ori and Pasifika people, and it has a specific focus on drivers up to 25 years of age\u2014the key group addressed in this Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAt the opposite end of Aotearoa, in \u014Chai, the locals are doing much the same thing, except that their programme is based at Te \u014Cruanui marae. A key concern for the locals was that a lot of the younger ones were driving without licences. Whether it be for literacy, competency, or cash reasons, a lot of the local rangatahi were driving without having sat their licence. I read a comment from the marae kaiwhakarite, Serena Harris, that actually blew me away. She was talking about their plans to offer restricted licence driving courses. She said: \u201CFor some people this is the first time they\u2019ve got 100 percent in anything. The confidence somebody gets from getting their licence is unreal.\u201D That is at one end\u2014to do with rangatahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EBut at the other end of the scale, one of our own kuia back at Rotorua of Tamatekapua, Aunty Miro Morrison, aged 79, has just got her licence\u2014for goodness\u2019 sake!\u2014having driven around for 50 years without one. She got snapped\u2014thank goodness!\u2014had her car confiscated, and decided to attend a course for free with Lil Emery at Taharangi marae in Rotorua. So she is away now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAt completely different locations there are resounding success stories of M\u0101ori groups making a difference in keeping our people safe, our young ones in particular. The focus of this bill, presumably, is about much the same thing\u2014trying to keep our young ones alive instead of bumping up the national average for car fatalities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Transport tells us that over the last 5 years 22 percent of fatal car accidents involved M\u0101ori drivers, with an even higher number, 28 percent, of fatal casualties from crashes being M\u0101ori\u2014that is, the passengers, the ongoing traffic, and the wh\u0101nau that have the bad luck to be following on behind. Then there is what is called the vulnerable road users: the cyclists, the pedestrians, and the motorcyclists. It makes for another bizarre irony in the debate around peak oil and the search to reduce our dependency on cars as the main mode of transport, when we look at the statistics for vulnerable road users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe need to be doing something and this bill is a good place to start. We know who is getting killed\u2014it is our young men, who are being daring, risking their lives out on the roads, and too often losing the gamble. Young men aged between 15 and 19 years are seven times more likely to die than 45 to 49-year-old male drivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EA high proportion of the fatal crashes of our young drivers under 29 years of age occur on rural roads. As other speakers have said, speed is a huge factor in this. Looking at my own electorate, in the 2004 national road safety public attitude survey, 32 percent of drivers in the Bay of Plenty region said they enjoyed driving fast on the open road. That is all good and fine, but it ain\u2019t so good when one learns that in the Rotorua area, excessive speed was a factor in 23 percent of injury-causing crashes in 2004. Taking one year as a case in hand\u20142004\u2014in Rotorua we suffered the cost of 193 road crashes. We lost eight lives that year from car crashes, 33 drivers and passengers were seriously injured, and another 153 were reported casualties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EOne of the things I have picked up from the heap of television ads telling our mokopuna \u201CIf you drink and drive, you\u2019re a bloody idiot.\u201D is that the message is slowly getting through and sinking in. But, although it seems that drink-driving is becoming an unacceptable practice across the community, there still seems to be a tolerance towards speeding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003ETeenage boy racers, I am told, would tell us that the key to success is all about how fast their machine can go. Success actually counts for nothing for those turning up at the cemetery\u2014at the urup\u0101\u2014a couple of days later to pay their respects. Those turning up to court to receive their sentence are not so successful. All those victims of other crimes in the city that become relegated to a lower priority because the full squad is out with the boy racer squad are not so successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThis bill does not target any of these factors\u2014speed, booze, social pressure, road conditions, and education. The bill is basically just to raise the minimum driver\u2019s licence age from 15 to 16 years, and to extend the length of the learner-licensing period from 6 to 12 months. Will adding 6 months make a difference? I doubt it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWhat will make the difference is the way the message gets through. It could be those billboard messages that tell us it is better to be late than to arrive dead on time. Or it could be what they are doing at the Whakat\u016B marae in Nelson with a driver\u2019s licence course, which has had a 100 percent success rate. They could not get much better than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EIn Nelson the local constable John O\u2019Donovan was getting worried about all the young people in the region who were constantly getting parked up by the cops, their cars being impounded, fines being thrown at them, and their getting caught up in a cycle of offending. A teacher, David Tepania, was enlisted, and, before they knew it, 33 students had passed the course. They found in the programme that some of the reasons cited for not having licences were learning difficulties and low self-esteem. Yet again, that is more proof that basic literacy skills keep proving to be a common underlying factor in offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing about the programme is that although it picked up referrals from the courts and police, there was support from the city council, Land Transport New Zealand, and Work and Income to get the programme off the ground. Probably the biggest factor of all was that it involved heaps of volunteers helping out for the greater good. That is where I think a lot of our efforts could be usefully spread, as well. Instead of constantly telling our young boys how mad, bad, and fast they are, we should be working with the whole wh\u0101nau in the interests of wh\u0101nau well-being and safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EWe need to be thinking about how to create optimum safety environments. Increasing the age at which young people can legally purchase alcohol\u2014from 18 years to 20 years\u2014was one of the strategies to keep our young alive, but it was a strategy that this House voted down last year. We, the M\u0101ori Party, block voted. All four of us supported the proposal to raise the legal purchase age to 20 when that legislation came to the House last November. Other M\u0101ori members voted to keep it at 18. I was particularly interested that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and the sponsor of the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill, Peter Dunne, could overlook the brutal combination of alcohol, age, and fatal crash data, and vote to keep the purchase age at 18. Alcohol is such a huge and potent contributor to fatal crashes that I would have thought it would be impossible to overlook it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EAlthough raising the licence age and increasing the time of learning licensing practice are better than doing nothing, other actions could be taken, which we hope the select committee will explore\u2014new technologies like alco-locks, education such as the three good examples I offered by M\u0101ori groups around the motu, or indeed more accessible and affordable public transport options. Australian and Canadian graduated driver\u2019s licence schemes, for example, require a zero blood-alcohol level for young and inexperienced drivers. The option to reduce the blood-alcohol content limit for our young drivers to zero is certainly something that we would do well to consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ec266512-9fe8-47da-883e-48f046ee5059\u0022\u003EFinally, I hope that all of these mayors in their first meetings with their newly elected councils might be thinking of ways to keep our young people alive. That is something that I am sure we are all hearing and that we would all support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00223a6f6bb941c64e0ab547c9bd6dc18936\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a6f6bb941c64e0ab547c9bd6dc18936\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak today on the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill and certainly welcome the opportunity to debate the issues raised in relation to the proposal to raise the driving age and extend the learner licence period. We have to keep our eye on the ball, because far too many of our young people are dying on the roads. We need to consider what more needs to be done. In doing so, we should not fool ourselves that legislation, in itself, is the answer. By and large, the responsibility of parents and the way they teach their young people how to drive, and more public education\u2014as the previous speaker, Te Ururoa Flavell, raised\u2014are elements to be able to tackle the real issue in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe Government is committed to sending this bill to a select committee to ensure that it gets a full and robust hearing. I certainly urge more young people and parents to make submissions to the select committee on this matter, because it affects them. I am hopeful that through the course of this debate we will hear informed debate based on fact rather than fiction, and certainly based on sound evidence. Members who have spoken before me have highlighted the need to get good information at the select committee in order to give this bill full consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EA number of issues have been raised by members. It is worth highlighting them, if anything so as to commence this debate in a full and frank manner. Issues have been raised about whether the debate should centre on whether setting the age at 15 or 16 is the best way to deal with this\u2014I think the jury is out on that. To some extent we may delay the period for young people in gaining experience on the road, which I think is where we would best spend our efforts in considering the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other issue is around exemptions for young people, and this is certainly a matter for rural communities. If we start this debate with that premise at the forefront, then we have already lost sight of what the real goal is. However, I accept the very real issues raised in relation to difficulties faced by young people in rural areas. For example, they do not have public transport, or the options for public transport, to be able to get to sporting activities or to work. What we do know is that a lot more young people work at a younger age, and they do need to get to their jobs. They do not have the public transport options available to them. So we should consider the factors of rurality in light of the issues that young people have around transportation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other issue that was raised during the course of this debate was around the issue of safety. My colleague the Minister for Transport Safety, Harry Duynhoven, raised the issue of whether further consideration should be given to the types of vehicles that young people have access to and whether this might moderate some of the aspects of poor driving behaviour. Again, more information on that issue might be helpful. A very substantial contribution was made on the role that supervised driving could have in improving the driving behaviour of young people on the road, and this is certainly an area that I will come to later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EBy and large, though, there are two aspects of this debate that we should never lose sight of. Firstly, too many of our young people are dying on the roads. That should not happen, it must not happen, and we can do more here. It takes a more comprehensive effort to do that\u2014partly through legislation and also through a commitment within our families and communities to ensure that young people are safe on the roads. The other part is understanding the contexts for the decisions we are going to make that will have an effect on young people. In a sense, gaining a driver\u2019s licence for young people is their first step to independence. It is a way in which they can positively engage in community activities, positively engage in terms of supporting their own independence and getting a job, and positively engage in socialising with the broader part of the community that they are involved in. I think that more social connectedness of young people to their community is a good thing, and that we should find ways to encourage more of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMuch has been said about the statistics, and I just want to make a brief comment here, because the statistics released by the Ministry of Transport about young drivers earlier this year confirmed that motor vehicles are the leading causes of death and injury amongst young people aged between 15 and 24 years. In addition to that, males are more likely to be involved in crashes, and those crashes are more likely to occur on a Friday or Saturday night. Importantly, fatalities involving young drivers between the ages of 15 and 24 years represent about a quarter of all drivers involved in fatal accidents. So there is a very good reason to debate this issue right now. It is the right time to do so, and we should ensure that this is a robust debate. But we need to ensure that we are targeting the problem in front of us and, more important, finding the best solutions for our young people, their families, and their communities, and with their input.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EOften age, or, more particularly, youthfulness is associated with inexperience. A simplistic analysis might suggest that merely by raising the driving age one might gain more experience, or, on the other hand, that if that decision is delayed the opportunity for experience will be gained. Research shows that in the instance of driving, a lack of time behind the wheel rather than age is a primary factor in increasing the risk of having an accident. I certainly hope that by debating the issue of age, consideration will also be given to the aspects of supervised time provided to young people who are learning to drive. I have a teenager in our house who wants to drive right now. I am trying to say: \u201CNo, you\u2019re too young. Not until I can spend the time with you behind the wheel in the car actually going through it can you learn to drive.\u201D And that is from someone who learnt to drive at a very early age, at 15\u2014as soon as I could get my licence I certainly did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EBut, really, that is to highlight the critical role that parents have. Parents have a role to ensure that when they are teaching a young person to drive\u2014and, let us face it, most parents teach their children how to drive, because often many parents cannot afford to pay for someone else to do it\u2014they understand just how critical the aspect of supervised driving and dialogue while driving is, and how much of a positive effect that can have for a young person in his or her experience. If parents understood that, I am sure that they would be armoured with the right tools to be able to teach their children how to drive. It is my view that if we can do something in that area around supervised driving and extend the learner licence period in this bill, as a positive step towards that aspect, then I think we will be making positive steps alongside young people. Research tells us that supervised driving practice for up to about 120 hours before solo driving will produce a safer driving skills set. The average supervised driving time here in New Zealand is about 40 hours, so we know that there is a lot more to do in this area. In part, the extended length of the learner licence period from 6 to 12 months, as I said previously, provides a good opportunity for supervised driving to be addressed, and puts some onus of responsibility on to parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to draw the attention of the House to some of the recommendations made during the Youth Parliament when we had the Youth Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. That committee investigated the issue of young people involved in motor vehicle accidents and fatalities. It found that the most dangerous period for a driver is the first 6 months of solo driving. The committee went on to recommend regarding the graduated driver\u2019s-licence system that the learner period be extended from 6 to 18 months, with a reduction to 12 months if a defensive driving course is completed. The committee also recommended that subsidised defensive-driving courses be offered through schools, that there be a tougher restricted licence test, that we enable the attainment of a full licence by the automatic progressive relaxation of restricted conditions for those with a clean licence, and that an enhancement of educational support for learner drivers and their parents be embarked on. In part, the consideration of road safety issues during Youth Parliament precedes this debate we are having today. It is my hope that full consideration will be given to the propositions in this bill, that weight will be given to the evidence around supervised driving, and that some insight will be gained from recommendations from the Youth Parliament select committee that dealt with part of the issue we are dealing with here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI certainly look forward to the report back of the select committee and to having a further debate in this House. It is my sincere hope that there is no politicisation of the debate, because, for our best intents and purposes, we really want to achieve greater safety on our roads for young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022546a4e44380946d99f52155ed2d45daa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022546a4e44380946d99f52155ed2d45daa\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of National to support the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill to a select committee. I also reiterate that we want good, open dialogue at the select committee, and for us to not close off any avenue for debate, given some of the many excellent speeches made in the House today. I firstly acknowledge my own sorrow at the tragic death of Christchurch city councillor Graham Condon, who was also a paralympian. In saying that, I am mindful of the words of Maurice Williamson, who said that we should not let emotion drive our decisions around how we address the serious concerns of youth deaths on our roads and the accidents that are caused by young drivers. Maurice also said he wanted statistics about 15-year-old drivers in other jurisdictions. I am not on the select committee that will be considering this bill, but I hope that the select committee will explore the range of statistics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI noticed that the Bills Digest entry about the Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Bill lists a number of jurisdictions with identified driver-licensing ages. I notice that in Australia the driving age is around 16. In Canada, in Quebec, the driving age is around 15 or 16, but in Alberta it is actually 14 years, which I thought was extraordinary\u201414 years! It would be very interesting to see what the statistics are from Alberta in regard to 14-year-olds with driver\u2019s licences. I am not suggesting, by any stretch of the imagination, that we drop the age down, but it would be interesting to see what the statistics are for that particular age group, and what the conditions are around drivers\u2019 licences in that area. The United States also has a driving age of 14 years in Arkansas and North Dakota, and, again, it will be very interesting to see what the findings are from the research provided to the select committee for those areas. In France and Sweden the driving age is 16, in Great Britain it is 17, and in Germany it is 17 years and 5 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI will now comment on some matters that were raised by David Bennett, who gave an excellent critique of this bill and the matters pertaining to it. He asked clearly whether it was the 15-year-olds we need to be looking at, because once we shift the age, all we will do is shift the problem up into the 16-year-old age group. The problem that we are looking at is significant between the ages of 15 and 18. We all have a range of ideas about how the issues might be able to be dealt with. One thing that he only slightly touched on that I would like to expand on, which I think could be a very simple solution to the problem in the main, concerns the cc rating of the vehicles that young people are driving. In this legislation we are focusing on the individual driver\u2014and, yes, there are some problems there around the licence period, around the understanding of the rules, and maybe around the level of responsibility, etc.\u2014but we are not talking enough, in my view, about the cc ratings of the vehicles that young people are driving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EOur society has changed. We are a nation of petrol-heads\u2014we love our cars, and we have a lot more cars on the road. Our society is changing so that nowadays generally both parents are working. Parents do not have time to leave their jobs to come home to pick up their children, when those children have come home on the bus, and take them back to school, or to pick children up from school because those children have had to stay behind for a music lesson, or whatever. David Bennett is quite right. The problem does not necessarily apply just to young people in rural areas, who are particularly challenged by lack of public transport; it also applies to our young people in urban areas, because sometimes they go to schools that are well outside the area where they are living, or that do not connect them to available public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI really would like to see consideration being given to the cc rating of vehicles. Why is it that a 15-year-old can drive a V8? Why should 15-year-olds have access to vehicles of that calibre of power and put them on the roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb79e014134f49aa991bf72d4a412b77\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Some V8s have less horsepower than some 1300s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf2302739fa4ed4a59537d2ea2cbae8\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Now we are hearing that some V8s have less horsepower. Be that as it may, we have young people who have ready access to vehicles. They like nothing better than to work on these vehicles\u2014to soup them up\u2014so that they can get the maximum power out of them, get them on the roads, congregate, do wheelies, and indulge in those sorts of activities. Those are a lot of the activities, in actual fact, that many people in the community do not like. It is all of the add-on activities that young people do with their vehicles that many people in the community do not like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI understand that in England young people are constrained to a vehicle with a lower cc rating. Maybe we should be looking at what sorts of changes that would make to the statistics for our young people who learn how to drive. Consider a small vehicle, a small Volkswagen\u2014I do not know; what car has a low cc rating? I am not very familiar with what is on the road these days. I am referring to the kinds of cars that we would call granny cars or shopping baskets. I cannot imagine young people going out to do wheelies and burnouts in a car park at night with a vehicle that can do only about 120 miles an hour. However, our vehicles have changed incredibly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fafe4a8d7da04d538e83654ce772ce77\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: Only 120 miles an hour!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022072b1e2a4c4c43de9e82fbeb15828d94\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: It does not bear thinking about. I still think that looking at the power of the vehicles that young people drive is worthy of consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EAs I said before, every single one of us has a whole range of ideas. We all have different opinions about the solution to the problem, but I note that Paul Adams made some very sensible comments. Of course, he was a former national rally champion. I happened to have the occasion to be a passenger in a vehicle he was driving, and I found him to be an absolutely superb driver. He considers that training, enforcements, and boundaries all need to be in place. In picking up the idea of enforcement, I do not know how many members have heard stories of young drivers who have been stopped, found to be in breach of their learner licence conditions by having passengers in their vehicle while driving, and have had a traffic officer or a policeman give them a warning and send them on their way. I think that enforcement is a big issue, and it will be very interesting to see how these statistics will be viewed at the select committee. Again, it was David Bennett who raised that very excellent point, because we need to look at all the aspects around the conditions for these accidents. Is it about the breaching of the rules? We need to look at how much young drivers are breaching the rules and what those breaches are. I am only just starting to look at a very, very small part of all of the different aspects relating to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Automobile Association Inc. also made some sensible recommendations, which have been reiterated here. It recommends doubling the duration of the learner licence from 6 to 12 months. That provision is in the bill, and I think it is a sensible change to the rules. The association also identified that attitudinal training might be able to be incorporated with the defensive driving course. I think there needs to be a little more emphasis on that and that we need to make restricted drivers\u2019 licensing tougher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EAll of these matters will be discussed in the select committee. I have been thoroughly impressed by my most excellent colleagues Maurice Williamson and David Bennett, who are members of the select committee. They will be giving due consideration to this legislation and wanting to explore the statistics. They will want to see how they relate not only to 15-year-olds but to 16 to 18-year-olds, and they will not want to limit what the possibilities might be in terms of addressing the issues. I do not want to see 15-year-olds disadvantaged when they do not have access to public transport and when both their parents are working, regardless of whether their environment is urban or rural. I do not think they should necessarily be penalised by the actions of a few. The statistics will actually show us where the troubles are occurring. So I am happy to support this bill, and I am looking forward to further debate and seeing the statistics. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6a9bf48c78d4fb69e4986443fa7f05c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6a9bf48c78d4fb69e4986443fa7f05c\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I found myself agreeing with a lot of the points Sandra Goudie made, which is somewhat of an unusual experience. Along with her, I certainly want to compliment the previous speakers. I know she meant to include the Hon Harry Duynhoven and the Hon Peter Dunne in her praise. I add them to mine and also acknowledge David Bennett, who made a very good contribution, as did the Hon Maurice Williamson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003ETheir speeches highlight the fact that all members of this House want to have, and see, a very\u2014if you like\u2014sober analysis of the issues and problems being posed with regard to the terrible propensity for young drivers to have a much higher proportion of fatalities and injuries than other age groups. Just raising the driving age from 15 to 16 will not on its own be the cure-all panacea, but it will give us a starting point for a renewed national, New Zealand - wide discussion to address some of the horrific statistics we observe with regard to our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIn that sense, I want to personally thank the Hon Peter Dunne for his initiative in getting this proposal back on to the parliamentary agenda, and I think the select committee is the place for its analysis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EDavid Bennett, my good colleague from Hamilton East, illustrated the differences and complications that exist around the argument. I am sure he will have lots of intense discussions with the Hon Maurice Williamson and Sandra Goudie, because obviously they will be going to him for some guidance. I acknowledge very seriously Maurice Williamson\u2019s previous experience in this area. Some of his contribution is particularly worthwhile reflecting on today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIf the information I have in front of me is correct, then, as I understand it, according to the Waikato Times we have a situation even within my own city. The editorial of 26 September expressed that it was not in favour of raising the driving age. It made some very interesting points with regard to praising Harry Duynhoven in terms of his work around trying to address the issue of boy racers and on his call for third-party insurance to be made compulsory. It quoted Harry as saying that the move would provide an incentive to drive safely, because blemishes to driving records will push up the premiums, and high premiums will discourage younger drivers from buying high-powered cars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThat is one of the raft of issues that need to be addressed in the context of driving age. It is not just a simple issue for the select committee members to say we should increase the driving age from 15 to 16; there are other issues to consider. Also, I have to say, with cynicism, that for years and years, bureaucrats in this country advised me why we could not have compulsory third-party insurance. I remember meeting constituents and giving them those bureaucratic reasons, when in fact my own heart was saying: \u201CWait a minute; I agree with Harry.\u201D I thank Harry Duynhoven for putting that particular issue back on the agenda. Some of the bureaucrats might listen, frankly, to how we should be doing something about the issue. It is so logical that we have third-party insurance. Again, it is something that will hit people where it counts\u2014in the pocket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E On the other hand, just to give an illustration of the range of views on the issue, a few days later on Monday, 8 October 2007 a headline in the Waikato Times stated: \u201CTop cop backs driving age lift\u201D. Inspector Leo Tooman is the region\u2019s road policing manager. David, Nanaia, and I all know Leo very well\u2014along with my good friend Sue Moroney, who will be on the select committee. He is well respected. He is quoted as saying that \u201Clifting the minimum driving age from 15 to 16 not only made sense from a safety perspective but would bring the country more into line with the rest of the world. No other country in the rest of the Western world has a driving age lower than 16.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EA telephone poll conducted in Hamilton by the Waikato Times of a random group of people showed that 75 percent of people agreed that the driving age be raised, with most people wanting the age to be lifted to 18. Again, that is just an example from my own city of the variety of views on the subject. At the moment, on the face of it, there is a huge groundswell of support to raise the age at which young people can start to learn to drive. Some people are even looking beyond the age of 16, to 18 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EI think the Hon Peter Dunne has done a huge service in getting this issue back on to the parliamentary agenda. We have all read some horrific statistics, not just of, say, 15-year-olds who are experiencing fatalities but also of some terrible tragedies as a result of, in some cases, mad, wantonly reckless driving, often by young people. In other cases, decent, wonderful, lovely young people have just made a misjudgment through lack of experience but are really lovely kids. It is every parent\u2019s and grandparent\u2019s absolute nightmare. These kids are in the wrong place at the wrong time and have a momentary lack of judgment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EThat also raises the issue of the review of the way in which young people learn to drive\u2014for example, the length of time taken to get the learner licence. What should be the conditions to enable a learner driver to start to drive? What should be the terms and conditions around the restricted licence? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EMy children will not be listening to this\u2014and they certainly will not be watching the Parliament channel on Sky, so they will not see this\u2014but I have to say as a parent that extending the curfew has great appeal. The biggest worry parents have when young people go from a restricted licence to a full licence is that they can drive around the clock. I quite like the 11 o\u2019clock curfew. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that I think we really need to look at\u2014and I refer to the announcement by Ministers Mark Burton and Damien O\u2019Connor\u2014is the review of under-age drinking. As members know, I sponsored a bill to raise the drinking age from 18 to 20 years, but Parliament, in its wisdom, exercised its right to vote against that bill, hoping that the compromise measures forecast by the two Ministers would move us into a much better frame and a much better environment in relation to the serious, disturbing binge-drinking culture amongst teenagers in this country. I am not referring just to the under 18-year-olds but also to the under 20-year-olds in that context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EOne of the issues I think the select committee needs to look at is the proposal to have a zero alcohol limit for any person under 20 on a restricted driver\u2019s licence. In addition to the debate about whether we raise the age at which young people can start to learn to drive from 15 to 16 years, maybe we should debate whether we should have a zero drink-drive limit for every person in this country aged under 20 years who drives a motor vehicle. Maybe that is a discussion we need to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EAlong with the other speakers in this debate I acknowledge that, just on its own, raising the driving age from 15 to 16 years is not the cure-all. It is not a magic bullet or the total answer; it has to be seen in the context of other measures. I hope the select committee and its researchers have a comprehensive micro-look at the individual states of Australia and at the social and road safety impacts of its driver licensing. If any country is a rural country then it is Australia. It has huge rural distances and issues with some of its young people getting from A to B in those far-flung rural communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EWe have great commonality with Australia. I would be genuinely interested to know whether those states give exemptions, what the dynamics are, what research has been done, and whether there are gains or losses, given the fact that Australia\u2019s statistics are better than ours. However, having said that, I point out that Australia\u2019s statistics may reflect that it is a much more urbanised country in terms of the fact that most Australians live in the big metropolitan areas. What are the rural road safety statistics? What are the rural young driver statistics? I think there are some issues there to consider. And what is the situation in Sweden, the United Kingdom, and in other countries that have better statistics than us? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EIn summary, this bill is a very, very good starting point to revisit the whole issue of road safety for our younger people. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7e812a4be284bf3a7643f22c84496d6\u0022\u003ECrimes (Repeal of Seditious Offences) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002246fc4df8361a438ca12bb96609d1d5ae\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000358\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 10 October.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022617b3af832d443f3bd64b3eecaadf9d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022617b3af832d443f3bd64b3eecaadf9d3\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER (National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the Crimes (Repeal of Seditious Offences) Amendment Bill. We agree that there are good reasons to repeal the law relating to sedition, and the most important is that the law is a threat to the principle of freedom of speech, a principle that New Zealanders quite rightly hold dear. During the debate we have had, we have heard many times that the law on sedition has been used in the past to impose political censorship, to stifle political discussion, and to suppress individual opinion. That is not what we want in New Zealand in 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EOr is it? Right now, there are real fears that the Electoral Finance Bill, which is being forced through Parliament by this Government, could deprive us of our right to be heard on political issues. It will do exactly the things we reject with this bill. It will impose political censorship, it will stifle political discussion, and it will suppress individual opinion. New Zealanders do not like political censorship. We believe that individuals should be allowed to have their say, and, quite rightly, we resent new rules and regulations that limit our freedom of speech. The Electoral Finance Bill will do just that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003ELabour may try to dress the Electoral Finance Bill up as necessary medicine, but it has not fooled the submitters. Of the over 500 submissions received by the Justice and Electoral Committee on the bill, the vast majority are against it. Many submitters have wanted to present their submissions orally to the committee and have been concerned about rushed agendas and short notices. Many individuals, many organisations, and even the Law Society are concerned that the bill will significantly restrict freedom of speech. The Law Society in its submission pointed out that it felt it had to depart from a longstanding convention of constructive criticism to declare that Labour\u2019s Electoral Finance Bill should be withdrawn. The society said the bill is complex, vague, and makes it dangerous for anyone to participate in elections for fear of unknowingly breaking the law. That is not the sort of law we expect to have in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EEven today, speaking to the select committee, the Chief Human Rights Commissioner, Rosslyn Noonan, described the Electoral Finance Bill as flawed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db74c5ce8a74272a5b95605727b45c8\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Speaker\u2019s ruling 101/3 states: \u201CMembers must confine discussion to the main purpose and the contents of a bill and not deal at length with matters not provided for therein though reference may be made to such matters if related to the bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ba7b062dd804d8c9ff3d996790a51bf\u0022\u003EMr DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for raising that. That is a good guideline, but I will be the judge on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c9ac752eaa642b495dd147876dc9c0d\u0022\u003ENICKY WAGNER\u003C/span\u003E: Rosslyn Noonan described the bill as flawed and asked the committee to withdraw or substantially change the bill, given the implications of the proposed legislation for the democratic rights of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002292824476-4e66-4052-8435-b049833d8b83\u0022\u003EBut I go back to the Crimes (Repeal of Seditious Offences) Amendment Bill. National agrees that the law on sedition should be repealed. We agree with the Law Commission, which has said that the present law invades the democratic value of free speech for no adequate reason. Again, the Human Rights Commission, when commenting on the bill, said it believed that the law on seditious offences seriously undermines freedom of expression. So it is right that those offences should go. But we also believe that the Electoral Finance Bill invades the democratic value of free speech for no adequate reason, and that it too seriously undermines freedom of expression. We in the National Party are shocked and amazed that this Government thinks it is OK to replace one outdated and repressive law with another that holds similar dangers for our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac446b802257466fbbac6521c92778e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac446b802257466fbbac6521c92778e4\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Is it not interesting that at a time when are debating an issue as important as this, and not long after the parliamentary prayer, when we agree to put aside all personal interests, the only thing the National Party can do when it comes to discussing such key legislation as the Crimes (Repeal of Seditious Offences) Amendment Bill is to talk about personal interest things such as how it will get money for its next campaign. That is about as hollow as the party has become, and it truly is a sad reflection on what was once a great party led by my late local MP in Pahiatua, Keith Jacka Holyoake. I lament that loss. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe Crimes (Repeal of Seditious Offences) Amendment Bill is, sadly, one of those bills that seems to be lumped in the warm fuzzy basket of things we are going to hug. It has become legislation that could probably be described as fuzzy, meaning nothing, and \u201Ctouchy-feely\u201D, and it is tragic to see parties such as the National Party and the ACT party support it. We need to take off the rose-tinted glasses and look at what the current legislation is in place for and at what it does, and not get carried away by all the lefties in our midst who say it is outmoded and outdated and needs to be repealed. Right now, at a time in our history when the police are engaged in operations such as they have been engaged in for the last week, one would have thought that the National Party would pinch itself, wake up, and have a bit of a think about this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EFreedom of thought and speech are ultimate legal values. They are quite rightly described as part of the lifeblood of democracy and of political expression. Comment about the Government and Government policy usually enjoys the greatest protection and is often described as being at the core of the right. If the State does not permit the expression of opinions in a lawful framework, however unpopular or objectionable those opinions may be, then the State is empty of moral content and is perceived in terms of force alone. In New Zealand the importance of freedom of speech is recognised in section 14 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which provides that \u201CEveryone has the right to freedom of expression, including the freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and opinions of any kind in any form.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is indisputable that in order to have a fair and participatory democracy, a wide degree of freedom of expression must be allowed. Even speech that promotes unpopular, unreasonable, distasteful, or dangerous ideas must be allowed. As the Law Commission says, \u201Cexpressions should not be branded as criminal simply because they involve dissent and political opposition to the Government and authority.\u201D Although our constitutional systems will not work if they are not respected and protected, it is equally true that they will not work unless there is freedom of speech. Therefore, respecting and protecting our constitutional systems, and permitting free speech to the maximum extent possible, are both necessary in order to ensure that the system works properly, and that everyone is prepared and able to engage with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EHowever, sometimes the right to freedom of expression comes into conflict with other principles. When that happens, it is essential to bear in mind that the right to freedom of expression is not absolute. The National Party, of all parties we would have thought, should understand that. The New Zealand Bill of Rights Act itself recognises that when it states in section 5 that there may be limits on rights as long as they are \u201Creasonable\u201D and \u201Cprescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.\u201D Similarly, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which New Zealand has ratified, provides that the right to freedom of expression can be limited, if the limitations are \u201Cprovided by law and are necessary: \u2026 For the protection of national security or of public order\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe first thing we need to think about when we look at the seditious offences is their central function. The central function of the seditious offences is to protect lawful authority. That includes the system of government, the head of State, the justice system, the judiciary, Parliament and its members, and the institution of Parliament itself\u2014in other words, the seditious offences are designed to protect the institutions and processes of democracy and government. It seems that the National Party has forgotten that. Its members would rather make speeches about getting more money for the next election. Generally speaking, seditious offences give that protection by making it illegal to incite or urge the use of violence. We have a Government over there that says that at the top of its law and order agenda is the curbing of violence, but it wants to get rid of this legislation\u2014provisions about violence or force being used against lawful authority; provisions about violence or the use of force against the principles of democracy. Why would anyone want to repeal laws that are there to give us that kind of protection? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe second issue is that the seditious offences represent a common commitment to democratic institutions and lawful authority, a respect for them, and an appreciation of their importance. They do that by recognising that the urging of violence against lawful authority is a different type of crime from that of generally urging violence, because of the importance of the authority that is threatened. Our constitutional system will not function unless we have a common commitment to it, and unless we all accept the importance of the system and institutions. Repealing the seditious offences and leaving the constitutional system protected by only the general criminal law, as the Law Commission has recommended, implies that constitutional systems and institutions are nothing special, and do not deserve any extra protection or recognition. In short, it devalues democracy. It devalues the very freedoms that Nicky Wagner has just been saying she wants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWell, I am sorry, but New Zealand First says that such a devaluation is not just a theoretical or abstract problem; it fosters an attitude that democratic processes and institutions of government are optional or even irrelevant, which is likely to lead to them being bypassed. If that attitude were to become widespread, it would undermine our constitutional system. The democratic system functions well only if everybody respects it, everybody engages in it, and everybody agrees not to bypass it and pursue change and power through other means. Once that system has begun to be undermined, it becomes more likely that people who want to achieve change and power will resort to other means, instead of taking part in the democratic process. In other words, there is a risk of a downward spiral. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EOne would have thought, with the unfolding of events right now, that people\u2019s minds would have focused on that. But oh, no, the National Party and its hollow men\u2014and women\u2014focus only on money. I urge them to wake up and to rethink their commitment to the constitutional values this country seeks to uphold\u2014to democracy, to its special nature, and to its need for special protection. Let us not fool ourselves: the central function of the seditious offences legislation is to protect lawful authority. Taking away that protection devalues lawful authority and, therefore, our constitutional system. Democracy also requires the broadest possible range of free speech. The only speech that should be prohibited is speech that intentionally urges violence against lawful authority and that creates an immediate, direct danger of that violence. We have just had a wake-up call, and whatever unfolds as the police progress their case and the justice system works through the happenings in our country right now, we need to rethink. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First urges the Government to park this legislation, put it to one side, give us a chance to see how the law and the general criminal laws do and do not work whilst we face the current situation, and rethink. The laws of sedition were put there by our forefathers, our forebears and our grandparents, for a purpose. They have value. New Zealand First supports them. We will oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022326a7d3965384371ba9775f0d7f6ea0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022326a7d3965384371ba9775f0d7f6ea0f\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I respect my friend Ron Mark considerably, but that speech was an example of tortured logic and sad rhetoric. It is a fact that the law of sedition has been an anomaly on our book for a long, long time, and it has nothing at all to do with the matters earlier this week. The sooner we draw a strong line between those matters and the law of sedition, the better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EWhen I was a poorly educated country boy studying legal systems as an adult student before the Rt Hon Sir Kenneth Keith\u2014or Professor Kenneth Keith as he was then\u201440 years ago, he taught me something about the Crimes Act. His words resonate today as I read the document before me. Sir Kenneth Keith said that the law of sedition is the prime example of an attempt to control by law expressions of political ideas and their consequences. That came about in New Zealand because when New Zealand adopted the common law of sedition into its criminal law\u2014when it codified it\u2014over the process in 1893 and 1906 to the final codification in 1961, the common law crime of sedition changed from being the crime of words intending to incite violence to the crime merely of uttering the words. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EAs a result of that, a number of very important people in this country\u2014and some of the people I look to for political and social value inspiration\u2014have run foul of the law of sedition. I mention first of all, Harry Holland, a former leader of the Labour Party. In 1913 he was charged and imprisoned for, I think, 3\u00BD months for sedition because he urged naval ratings to train their guns not upon the fellow workers who were striking on land but on the moneyed classes whom the workers were striking against. Nine years later, Sir Walter Nash, who was later to become Prime Minister, was also charged and fined for sedition for bringing into the country a pamphlet involving free speech. After he was convicted and fined, he found that very pamphlet in the Parliamentary Library\u2014that is how ridiculous the law of sedition is. And it has gone right down until 2006, when Timothy Selwyn threw an axe through the window of the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate office and then faced charges of sedition. However, the jury, sensibly, discharged him. The jury did not convict him on the charges that related just to political utterances, but it seems to have convicted him on the charge that arose from the damaging of the Prime Minister\u2019s window. So the jury, quite sensibly, limited the working of our present law to words that incite violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EBut do we need a law of sedition these days, particularly as wide as it is in our Crimes Act? Of course we do not. First of all, we do not need it because we have had since 1990 the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Section 14 of the Act guarantees everybody the right to freedom of expression, including the freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and opinions of any kind, in any form. That is an absolute right, which, as my friend Mr Chauvel reminded me, National voted against. That is a fundamental freedom in this country, and it is a freedom that we all grow up understanding to be our very own. No longer is it a crime in New Zealand to defame someone; it is a civil wrong but it is no longer a crime. Criminal defamation has been removed from our statute book. The New Zealand Bill of Rights Act guarantees freedom of expression, so having a crime on the statute book that makes it unlawful to express ideas that are against the Government\u2014or against other authorities, but particularly against the Government\u2014is an anomaly whose time to be removed has come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EI will look briefly at the situation we have this week, because it was raised by Ron Mark in his speech. It has been an appalling instance of cloudy, emotional rhetoric from politicians, from the media, and even, I suspect, from people close to the police. I heard nothing more appalling than a speech made by Derek Fox\u2014a man I respect greatly\u2014on Radio New Zealand National this morning at about 11 o\u2019clock. He came on ostensibly to speak about M\u0101ori sovereignty, but he instead expressed his anger and frustration at the police searching houses and arresting people. He went so far as to say that one of the people arrested was a 64-year-old grandfather who had never committed a crime in his life and was locked up as a result of this search but was innocent. What Derek Fox does not know is whether that man is innocent or guilty. That is for the court to decide. When emotion and rhetoric become as rampant as that and are aired on Radio New Zealand National, a lot of people have to take stock of themselves. The removal of the sedition laws may make it more clear what the offences really are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EWhile Ron Mark was speaking I looked at the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002. The definition of terrorism is dealt with in section 5. I mention it here because it is relevant to the difference between sedition and terrorism. Terrorism is defined in several ways, but the key one that is relevant to the matters this week and to the abolition of these sections of the Crimes Act is that terrorism is an act with an intent to cause an outcome, and the intent that is relevant is to induce terror in a civilian population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EWell, terror is not defined in the legislation, but the dictionary defines terror as \u201Cserious panic\u201D. But that is not enough for a conviction under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002; it must also be accompanied by the intent to cause an outcome. An outcome is such a thing as the death of another person; serious bodily injury to one or more persons; a serious risk to the health or safety of a population; the destruction of, or serious damage to, property\u2014not just any property but property of great value or importance\u2014or major economic loss or major environmental damage. So those are the outcomes. The other outcomes that are relevant are a serious interference with, or disruption to, an infrastructure facility, if it is likely to endanger human life. There is also a definition relating to the release of disease-bearing organisms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003ESo terrorism in our Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 is really a development of the common law that came to New Zealand and existed before 1893, until the attempts to codify it resulted in the watered-down version of the 1961 Crimes Act, which has caused so much difficulty in New Zealand, including for Timothy Selwyn in 2006. I dare say, in relation to the Selwyn case, that he would never have been prosecuted under the sedition provisions, except he went to court on a raft of offences, which surely attracted a desire by the police to cover the field. These offences included offences under the inland revenue Act and similar dishonesty offences, which interestingly, he pleaded guilty to, and he defended the sedition charges, being convicted on just the one charge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003ESo what we have before us today is a move that was anticipated for 40 years by Sir Kenneth Keith, one of our most eminent jurists, who is presently serving on the International Court of Justice, having served on the Court of Appeal and then as one of the inaugural justices of our Supreme Court. He is a leading academic, an international lawyer, a great writer, and a very, very humble human being. In 1968 he said that the law of sedition was otiose, that it achieved nothing, and that it stifled free speech in New Zealand. It is surprising, in fact, that when the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act was passed in 1990 and section 14 became part of it, there was not an amendment to remove the law of sedition from our statute book. But perhaps our political maturity takes time to manifest itself, and in today\u2019s climate, where terrorism is a real fear, sedition is an old concept that has no place on the statute book. Instead of a sedition law, we have the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, and I have already dealt with the definition that relates thereto. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EI want to close my speech today by referring to subsection (5) of section 5 of the Terrorism Suppression Act. Subsection (5) states: \u201CTo avoid doubt, the fact that a person engages in any protest, advocacy, or dissent, or engages in any strike, lockout, or other industrial action, is not, by itself, a sufficient basis for inferring that the person\u2014(a) is carrying out an act for a purpose, or with an intention, specified in subsection (2);\u201D. So what it says is that the very crime of sedition is not sufficient to establish an act of terrorism, and our Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 takes us back to a modern version of the common law before we proceeded to codify it in this country. This bill is long overdue, and I commend its passing to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022 data-id=\u002228e556ac3b7d4d28a35ae38851bb0f92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228e556ac3b7d4d28a35ae38851bb0f92\u0022\u003ECHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee, I am pleased to follow my friend and colleague in the law and in the Labour caucus Russell Fairbrother to speak in the second reading debate of the Crimes (Repeal of Seditious Offences) Amendment Bill\u2014not the \u201CSeditious Officers Bill\u201D, as Ms Wagner seemed to think it was called. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThis bill is the latest in a long series of Law Commission recommendations to be progressed through the legislative process by this Government. I did a count while I was considering what remarks I might make today. As far as I can tell it is the 14th report to be progressed by this Government legislatively or on the basis of publicly announced executive consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe 20th anniversary of the Law Commission conference last year drew to the attention of politicians, the academic world, and the public the somewhat unfortunate logjam that had built up in New Zealand\u2014as it has built up in the United Kingdom and Australia\u2014of unimplemented Law Commission reports. In case members are interested, the other 13 reports the Law Commission has put up to the Government that are either under active consideration or likely to be implemented legislatively relate to access to court records; Waka Umanga; the Limitation Act; minority buy-outs; costs in criminal cases; problems in the law of trusts; wills; succession homicide; arbitration amendment; property law; damages; interest on money claims; sentencing guidelines and parole reform; and customs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EAs I pointed out in previous remarks to the House this month on other bills being progressed as a result of Law Commission recommendations, this is a remarkable record of progress on the part of the Minister responsible for the Law Commission, the Hon Mark Burton. I would just like to record my appreciation of the Minister\u2019s vigorous record of progressing Law Commission reports. It is an unparalleled record in our history. The dispassionate consideration and implementation of these reports, in my view, is an important aspect of the practical observance of the rule of law. I just repeat my commendation of the Government\u2019s record on this score. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note that the progress of this bill represents one of the swiftest examples to date of the implementation of a Law Commission report. The commission formulated its terms of reference under section 16 of the Law Commission Act on 16 October 2006, and its report was transmitted to the Minister just some 4 months later on 12 March 2007. The bill was introduced just under a further 3 months later, on 8 June 2007. It was read a first time on 19 June and referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee, where submissions were heard and a report back to the House produced on 24 August. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIt is now my hope that in future we will see similar expeditious progress on uncontroversial Law Commission recommendations, under the procedures for dealing with Law Commission reports that were announced by the Prime Minister on 24 July at an event to mark the publication of the 20th anniversary papers, to which I referred in more detail in previous remarks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003E It is good to note from previous speeches by members that there does appear generally to be multiparty support for the repeal of this archaic legislation, although I note with concern Mr Mark\u2019s apparent withdrawal of support for the legislation. Notwithstanding Nicky Wagner\u2019s speech against the bill, I am encouraged that it appears that the National Party still supports its repeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn my respectful view, though, it is a shame that there has been some pettiness and inaccuracy in some of the contributions made on this legislation in the House. I would like to deal with one or two of those contributions. The first is a matter that deals with evidence that came before the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2014specifically that of the New Zealand Police. In total, we heard from five of the 17 submitters who made submissions before the committee. Of those five oral submitters, only two did not favour the bill in its present form. We asked to hear from the New Zealand Police on its use in practice of sections 81 to 85 of the principal Act. The police came before us and gave very fulsome evidence\u2014in my view\u2014on the sections in question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThey said the sections were very rarely relied upon in practice and, as a consequence, because of the rarity of their use, there are no specific guidelines on their application. That really helped\u2014certainly in my mind and I think in the minds of others on the committee\u2014to confirm that the Law Commission was absolutely correct to recommend the repeal of those sections. These comments might help Mr Mark because, as the Law Commission report points out, all the elements of the applicable law in respect of the sedition offences clearly are able to be covered by other offences that will, and do, remain on the statute book. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn my view there is an unhealthy trend, as Mr Fairbrother said, in New Zealand politics for some politicians to suggest that there is some political motivation on the part of the police in their decisions in individual cases as to whether to bring prosecutions. I know that this is an absolutely despicable and untrue allegation. I asked the police when they came before the select committee to confirm that they act in decisions to prosecute in respect of sedition as they do in respect of all other matters\u2014with complete political independence. I am very glad to note that the committee recorded that evidence in its report. The House should note it for the record, as well. Politicians who bandy about suggestions to the contrary should be ashamed of themselves. In making that suggestion for short-term political gain, they denigrate the integrity of the New Zealand Police and the excellent work it does, and whether or not they realise it they also denigrate themselves in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EThe second matter I want to speak on in this debate is the linkage that has been made in the minds of some between this legislation and the matter of certain arrests that have occurred this week. We have already heard some discussion of that imagined link in the debate today. In reality, there is no link between the two matters. We know from public statements by the Commissioner of Police, on the one hand, and by Ministers, on the other, that the police are acting, as they always do, on the basis of evidence they believe is sound. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EUnder certain circumstances, in respect of those arrests, the Solicitor-General will also need to be satisfied that evidence is sound if charges are to be laid under the Terrorism Suppression Act, which Mr Fairbrother adverted to. But in either case, the courts will make the final decision. It is not, and never should be, for members of this House, whether in the Chamber, in press statements, or on Morning Report, to start thinking they can decide what the actual facts are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003EIn my view, it will be seen in due course what evidence the police have and what the courts make of that evidence; members should not be rushing to any form of judgment. If there are concerns about the way in which the police have conducted themselves, then, of course, members of the public will have the ability to have recourse to the Police Complaints Authority. The processes for that are well-laid-out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002259e9efe2-6dea-4eeb-869a-ef5b3e48a5b5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand stands for the right to peaceful protest, and the repeal of this legislation is confirmation of that. Indeed, as Mr Fairbrother pointed out, many within Labour have engaged in peaceful protest in the past, and it is quite right that such activity should not be punishable by the law. As Mr Fairbrother said, the Terrorism Suppression Act is quite specific about that matter. But in respect of the events of this week, as with arrests and potential prosecution under this or other legislation, members should surely refrain from making extravagant comments, in order to avoid potential embarrassment in the future. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dbed45e0a60a44aa8fa7be6aff0a8ef3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes (Repeal of Seditious Offences) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 47; Green Party 6; M\u0101ori Party 2; United Future 2; Progressive 1; Independents: Copeland, Field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d14f780221c740d4ba18e6d7f8eef07d\u0022\u003EProtected Disclosures Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9e92b778e454b3d96d2bb520d9c101c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000403\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 16 October.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022950c3431e41246728e639a9a249d7c1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022950c3431e41246728e639a9a249d7c1c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E When I was last speaking in the first reading of the Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill I was pointing out that even with the Act\u2019s protections, whistle-blowing carries some personal risks to employees. But we all know that silence is not in the public interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EMeasures in this bill are designed to give more substance to the Act\u2019s protection. They include the Ombudsman assisting organisations to keep confidentiality of disclosers, expanding the Act to protect volunteers of information in support of an existing disclosure of serious wrongdoing, expanding protection to people who reasonably but mistakenly believe they are disclosing serious wrongdoing, and clarifying that disclosers are not excluded from the Act merely because they did not refer to the Act by name when disclosing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EFurther, technical non-compliance with the Act\u2019s processes for whistle-blowing will no longer prevent an employee from coming within the Act\u2019s protection. An example of this change would be an employee, say, at a Wanganui Crown institute blowing the whistle on two staff who were burying toxic waste in riverbed shingle. Under the internal procedures the employee should first disclose to the human resources manager, but if instead he or she discloses to the general manager, he or she still comes within the Act\u2019s protection, despite technical non-compliance with one of the process steps in section 7 of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EIn summary, this bill is designed to improve aspects of the Protected Disclosures Act. It gives the Ombudsman an enhanced coordinating and helping role. As a result, it should be easier for whistleblowers to bring serious wrongdoing to light and for organisations to investigate effectively. I think it is a good bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3416391160c400292d76c6b3739e893\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3416391160c400292d76c6b3739e893\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Minister who has just resumed her seat, Annette King, probably summed up the intent of the Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill quite well when she said that whistle-blowing carries with it risks for the person or people who decide to make information public from an organisation with which they may have a relationship or association. She rightly made the point that often, in these cases, silence is not in the public interest. National will be supporting this bill going to the select committee and will wait with interest to see what particular submissions are made in respect of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAs the explanatory note states at the start of the bill: \u201CThe Bill is designed to give the Ombudsmen an enhanced guiding, reviewing, and investigating role \u2026\u201D. That is an important step that this legislation encourages. The Protected Disclosures Act 2000 was reviewed by Mary Scholtens QC, and in the report she brought to light some evidence of delays and the like that make this legislation necessary today. The bill will give more explicit information and advising powers to the Ombudsman, but of course the whistleblower in any set of circumstances takes on some considerable personal risk when deciding to take what is often a courageous step to bring to light information that is in the public interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe provisions of the bill essentially do the following. The bill broadens the scope of who is a protected person, and treats board members and volunteers in organisations as employees for the purposes of the Act. Although the National Party historically would be reluctant to see legislation define people as employees if indeed they had decided to contract in another way with a particular organisation, for the purposes of this legislation it is an appropriate capture. The bill protects witnesses in support of a whistleblower. That is also an important provision for third parties who may stand alongside or provide support for those who are actually carrying out the so-called act of whistle-blowing. The bill allows protection for those who substantially comply with the Act, but also for some minor technical failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAs was said earlier, the Ombudsman can take a managing and coordinating role, but the bill does not give the Ombudsman the role of advocate for the whistleblower. I think that is an important point. Ultimately, the Ombudsman is not there to advocate a case, but rather to exercise certain powers in order to ensure that the process around the disclosure of the information is kept as proper and as pure as possible. I wonder whether our own Dave McGee may find himself one of the first users of this particular legislation when it passes. I would certainly trust him to get it right, if indeed he was one of the people charged with making some of the decisions, carrying out some of the actions, or exercising some of the powers that the Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill facilitates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, the bill moves to apply the protection of employees to a wider group of whistleblowers. Chester Borrows said that a good example would be Clive Solomon, who was a board member of the Whanganui District Health Board and who drew some public scrutiny to the practices at Wanganui Hospital. It will be interesting to see whether a bill such as this could have protected someone like Kit Richards at the time he entered into an interesting situation in respect of information from Timberlands. Although the bill gives the extension of protection, and the provisions give a more facilitative role to the Ombudsman, there is a desire for a fair and sensible regime to surround the disclosure of information where, as the Minister put it\u2014and I could not put it better myself\u2014silence is not an option if the public interest outweighs the risk that that individual is taking in disclosing such information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EOn that basis, National will be supporting the bill going to the select committee. We will take some interest in the more technical application of some of the provisions during the hearing of submissions on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022 data-id=\u0022754579eae4c0468ba52faf3e8dd98363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022754579eae4c0468ba52faf3e8dd98363\u0022\u003EDARIEN FENTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak in the first reading of the Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill. The introduction of the Protected Disclosures Act 2000 was a very important measure that this Labour-led Government enacted to provide protection for employees who make disclosures of information about serious wrongdoings in their organisations. This is known as whistle-blowing, and I am sure most New Zealanders are very familiar with the term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI recall the furore surrounding Neil Pugmire that led to this bill. In the 1990s he was a psychiatric charge nurse at Lake Alice Hospital. He expressed concern to his then employer, Good Health Wanganui, over the release of dangerous psychiatric patients into the community. After raising the issue with his management and not getting a satisfactory response he went public with his concerns, in the interests of public safety, by releasing confidential material to a member of Parliament. Mr Pugmire was suspended and later sacked for his actions. Although the Employment Court eventually reinstated him to his former position, he and his family had gone through a long and stressful employment disputes process, as well as coping with the uproar in the media and in his community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhat happened to Mr Pugmire was typical of the prevailing culture of fear in the workplace in the 1990s: fear of losing a job in a time of high unemployment and unprecedented power in the hands of employers. Thankfully, this kind of unhealthy workplace is not acceptable to this Government, and Labour has ensured that the dreaded culture of the 1990s has been changed for the better through legislation that promotes good faith, the right to consultation and to be heard, and the right to be represented through one\u2019s union. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to public services that are provided with public money, our Government takes particular notice. Although an employee has a duty to his or her employer, he or she has a higher responsibility to our society and to the Public Service to report acts of wrongdoing by his or her employer or organisation. This is because these are services to the people and for the people that are paid for by the people through their taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003ESome employers see the actions of whistleblowers as a breach of loyalty. Employees in this situation can face retaliation from employers when they attempt to stop inappropriate actions. That is why Labour passed the Protected Disclosures Act\u2014to protect people like Neil Pugmire who blow the whistle on serious wrongdoings in their workplace. Employees are protected if they disclose a misuse of public funds or resources, a risk to public health and safety or the environment, a threat to the maintenance of the law, or a public official acting oppressively, discriminating against people improperly, being grossly negligent, or grossly mismanaging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOf course, an employee must not simply act on something that he or she believes might be happening; he or she must have reasonable grounds for believing that the wrongdoing is true or likely to be true. There are also safeguards in the Act for employers, in that employees have to follow set internal procedures to report suspected wrongdoing. If those internal procedures do not work, employees may then complain to the appropriate authority. So the Protected Disclosures Act not only protects employees but also promotes transparency in Government, and it protects the interests of individuals and the general public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EOur reputation as a corruption-free country and our consistently good rating on the annual survey of Transparency International, where New Zealand is identified as being first-equal with Finland and Iceland as the world\u2019s least corrupt countries, is vitally important. That is why the then Minister of State Services had a review of the operation of the Protected Disclosures Act 2000, to ensure that it was working as intended. This Act contains provisions requiring that review and a decision on whether any amendments should be made to the scope and contents of the Act. We know that that was a significant review and a significant report, and the current Minister and others have referred to some of the amendments that are recommended in order to improve the operation and effectiveness of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI was interested that the report said there have been very few successful efforts by employees to use the legislation. The Public Service Association, in its submission on the review, reported that it did not know of any and it questioned the extent to which the Act was being used effectively. It said that one member who had used the process had found it to be a long-drawn-out and not well-understood process, and felt that the State Services Commission and the Ombudsman could have been much more responsive. But at the same time the association observed that the Act in itself, although not widely utilised, had value as a strong deterrent to wrongdoing in public sector organisations. I think that that is right, and also that it shows that the Public Service is functioning well, and according to the principles laid down in the Public Service Code of Conduct, which sets out the Government\u2019s expectations of standards of behaviour and conduct for the Public Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis bill is designed to improve aspects of the Protected Disclosures Act, and it builds on the recommendations of the report, which has, as outlined in the explanatory note, brought to light some evidence of delays, inconsistencies, and other difficulties in using the legislative procedures properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003E The report also highlighted some uncertainty from both organisations and employees as to how the legislative procedures in the Act could be used and how to go about accessing them, and referred to a strong perception among some who were consulted on the Act that the identity of a whistle-blowing employee would not be protected. That goes to the heart of the effective application of this Act. We need to be absolutely sure that employees who set out to disclose wrongdoing in their organisations are protected, and that the organisations and the employees are absolutely clear about the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis amendment bill makes it easier for whistleblowers to bring serious wrongdoing to light, and it will also make it easier for organisations to investigate such allegations effectively. It does this by enhancing the role of the Ombudsman. It gives the Ombudsman the ability to review employers\u2019 protected disclosure procedures. Although many employers now have such procedures in place, many do not, and this will encourage employers to develop good procedures. The Ombudsman will also be able to give guidance to employees on how the Act works, what a serious wrongdoing actually is, and whom they can complain to. The Ombudsman will have new powers to review and guide public sector organisation investigations of whistle-blowing, but this is a power that is facilitative rather than directive. In addition, the Ombudsman can take over an investigation into serious wrongdoing in the public sector if insufficient progress has been made by the organisation, but the whistleblower must consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EI am also pleased to see that the Act\u2019s processes and protections will be extended to include volunteers, board members, and members of local authorities. For the purposes of the Act, these groups will be employees in regard to confidentiality of identity, and they will have immunity from liability and anti-victimisation measures under the Human Rights Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a40f5af7-f9b0-4b44-9669-9e63be1c3ced\u0022\u003EThis bill is about encouraging accountability and transparency, while at the same time providing better protections for those who put their jobs or positions on the line when they make decisions to disclose wrongdoing in their organisations. As a member of the Government Administration Committee, to which this bill is being referred, I look forward to hearing submissions on the bill and returning it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec048e57da6e4815996d9819fd4d3bf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec048e57da6e4815996d9819fd4d3bf5\u0022\u003EKATE WILKINSON (National):\u003C/span\u003E In rising to speak to support the first reading of the Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill it is useful to note, firstly, the intention or objective of the original 2000 Act. The Act was intended to operate by facilitating the disclosure of serious wrongdoing, facilitating the investigation of that serious wrongdoing, and protecting employees who make disclosures under the Act. The Act also provided for a review to be made of its operation no sooner than 2 years after its commencement. In fact, that review took place, as we have heard, in 2003, and, indeed, the review appears to be somewhat comprehensive, comprising some 90-plus pages. Four years later the results\u2014or some of the results\u2014of that review can now be found in the bill before this House. The reason why it has taken so long to get here is certainly anyone\u2019s guess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWe have heard that the bill seems to have two main objectives. Firstly, it seeks to give the Ombudsman a more substantial managing and coordinating role, in an attempt to reduce the risks of confusion, and the risks of disclosures of serious wrongdoing falling between the gaps in various organisations\u2019 investigative jurisdictions. Secondly, the bill seeks to clarify and extend the group of people who can make disclosures of serious wrongdoing\u2014that is, who can be a whistleblower\u2014and therefore come within the protection of the Act. For example, as we have heard, volunteers and board members may now be treated as employees for most of the purposes of the Act. Currently, and in summary, the Act protects an employee or a former employee of an organisation who discloses serious wrongdoing from retaliatory action from the employer and from civil and criminal suit in relation to the making of that disclosure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EI have read the 2003 review of this Act, and it is interesting to note certain things. There is no comprehensive data on the extent to which the Act has been used, because there is no particular organisation that has any oversight of the legislation. I am not sure that this bill goes so far as to remedy this, although it does give the Ombudsman a more substantial managing and coordinating role, which is specifically described as \u201Cnot an advocacy role for the whistle-blower\u201D. The report also noted that the original whistleblower\u2019s Act had not resulted in a significant volume of protected disclosures of serious wrongdoing, and that there was some lack of knowledge or awareness of the terms of the legislation and how, indeed, it should be applied. In fact, the Chief Ombudsman noted: \u201CAlthough the Office had been surprised by the paucity of complaints under the Act during the first two and a half years, those it received had been time consuming.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EWhen it first became law, the Act was expected to trigger an avalanche of whistle-blowing, which did not prove to be the case. It may well be, however, that the mere presence of this Act, and prospective whistleblowers having access to information and therefore seeing why something was happening, was sufficient to allay their suspicions. Many submissions leading up to the 2003 review, both from employer representative groups and employee representative groups, indicated they had little, if any, experience to report, either positive or negative, with the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThere appears to have been some confusion as to who indeed could make a disclosure, about what, and from which organisation. Should, or could, for example, elected members of local authorities\u2014say, mayors and councillors\u2014come within the definition of an \u201Cemployee\u201D? To cover this confusion, the bill does extend that definition, as we have heard, of \u201Cemployee\u201D to include, firstly, a person who is a member of the board or governing body of the organisation, and, secondly, a person who works for the organisation as a volunteer. An issue was also raised in relation to anonymous disclosures. Some have the view that anonymous disclosures are not covered by the legislation, the protections available to others cannot be provided to persons whose identity is not known, and \u201Cas you do not know whether the person is an \u201Cemployee\u201D within the Act you do not know whether the Act covers them.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EA further concern raised in the 2003 report was whether it was inappropriate for the Act to require organisations to accept such anonymous disclosures. This issue of confidentiality is important. Although the Act does attempt as one of its protections for whistleblowers to confer on them confidentiality and privacy, there does seem to be some scepticism \u201Cand the ability to provide full confidentiality to someone disclosing wrongdoing is almost non-existent\u201D and is considered to be \u201Ca fundamental problem for staff.\u201D This is to be balanced, however, with the guidelines relating to natural justice to the effect that a person is entitled to know the identity of his or her accuser. Perhaps this is an issue that could be considered further at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ENational supports the first reading of this bill, the efforts to improve the operation and administration of the Protected Disclosures Act 2000, and the recommendations of the 2003 review. It is important, however, that protecting whistleblowers, and indeed giving them the confidence to be whistleblowers, is not just a matter for legislative change. Ongoing operational improvements are also very important. The 2003 review noted that the Chief Ombudsman gave examples of employers not recognising a disclosure as a potential disclosure, and where the whistleblower\u2019s identity had indeed been revealed without considering those confidentiality obligations. His view was that this indicated inadequate processes and a lack of understanding of the legislation. Consequently, the protections under the Act may appear to be ineffective and may be one reason why the Act has not been used much\u2014whistleblowers simply do not feel secure enough about their protections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003ECloser examination of this bill by the select committee is required. National supports the bill at its first reading, and we support its referral to the select committee for closer scrutiny so that the review that was carried out 4 years ago in 2003 can be scrutinised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20071018b7eb296d170d4a3bb90bd96978badf54000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022136da8c4-afc7-483e-a39c-c66812f71774\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"